alt.atheism	alt atheism faq atheist resources archive name atheism resources alt atheism archive name resources last modified december version atheist resources addresses of atheist organizations usa freedom from religion foundation darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are available from the freedom from religion foundation in the us write to ffrf p o box madison wi telephone evolution designs evolution designs sell the darwin fish it s a fish symbol like the ones christians stick on their cars but with feet and the word darwin written inside the deluxe moulded d plastic fish is postpaid in the us write to evolution designs laurel canyon north hollywood ca people in the san francisco bay area can get darwin fish from lynn gold try mailing figmo netcom com for net people who go to lynn directly the price is per fish american atheist press aap publish various atheist books critiques of the bible lists of biblical contradictions and so on one such book is the bible handbook by w p ball and g w foote american atheist press pp isbn nd edition bible contradictions absurdities atrocities immoralities contains ball foote the bible contradicts itself aap based on the king james version of the bible write to american atheist press p o box austin tx or cameron road austin tx telephone fax prometheus books sell books including haught s holy horrors see below write to east amherst street buffalo new york telephone an alternate address which may be newer or older is prometheus books glenn drive buffalo ny african americans for humanism an organization promoting black secular humanism and uncovering the history of black freethought they publish a quarterly newsletter aah examiner write to norm r allen jr african americans for humanism p o box buffalo ny united kingdom rationalist press association national secular society islington high street holloway road london n ew london n nl british humanist association south place ethical society lamb s conduit passage conway hall london wc r rh red lion square london wc r rl fax the national secular society publish the freethinker a monthly magazine founded in germany ibka e v internationaler bund der konfessionslosen und atheisten postfach d berlin germany ibka publish a journal miz materialien und informationen zur zeit politisches journal der konfessionslosesn und atheisten hrsg ibka e v miz vertrieb postfach d berlin germany for atheist books write to ibdk internationaler b ucherdienst der konfessionslosen postfach d hannover germany telephone books fiction thomas m disch the santa claus compromise short story the ultimate proof that santa exists all characters and events are fictitious any similarity to living or dead gods uh well walter m miller jr a canticle for leibowitz one gem in this post atomic doomsday novel is the monks who spent their lives copying blueprints from saint leibowitz filling the sheets of paper with ink and leaving white lines and letters edgar pangborn davy post atomic doomsday novel set in clerical states the church for example forbids that anyone produce describe or use any substance containing atoms philip k dick philip k dick dick wrote many philosophical and thought provoking short stories and novels his stories are bizarre at times but very approachable he wrote mainly sf but he wrote about people truth and religion rather than technology although he often believed that he had met some sort of god he remained sceptical amongst his novels the following are of some relevance galactic pot healer a fallible alien deity summons a group of earth craftsmen and women to a remote planet to raise a giant cathedral from beneath the oceans when the deity begins to demand faith from the earthers pot healer joe fernwright is unable to comply a polished ironic and amusing novel a maze of death noteworthy for its description of a technology based religion valis the schizophrenic hero searches for the hidden mysteries of gnostic christianity after reality is fired into his brain by a pink laser beam of unknown but possibly divine origin he is accompanied by his dogmatic and dismissively atheist friend and assorted other odd characters the divine invasion god invades earth by making a young woman pregnant as she returns from another star system unfortunately she is terminally ill and must be assisted by a dead man whose brain is wired to hour easy listening music margaret atwood the handmaid s tale a story based on the premise that the us congress is mysteriously assassinated and fundamentalists quickly take charge of the nation to set it right again the book is the diary of a woman s life as she tries to live under the new christian theocracy women s right to own property is revoked and their bank accounts are closed sinful luxuries are outlawed and the radio is only used for readings from the bible crimes are punished retroactively doctors who performed legal abortions in the old world are hunted down and hanged atwood s writing style is difficult to get used to at first but the tale grows more and more chilling as it goes on various authors the bible this somewhat dull and rambling work has often been criticized however it is probably worth reading if only so that you ll know what all the fuss is about it exists in many different versions so make sure you get the one true version books non fiction peter de rosa vicars of christ bantam press although de rosa seems to be christian or even catholic this is a very enlighting history of papal immoralities adulteries fallacies etc german translation gottes erste diener die dunkle seite des papsttums droemer knaur michael martin atheism a philosophical justification temple university press philadelphia usa a detailed and scholarly justification of atheism contains an outstanding appendix defining terminology and usage in this necessarily tendentious area argues both for negative atheism i e the non belief in the existence of god s and also for positive atheism the belief in the non existence of god s includes great refutations of the most challenging arguments for god particular attention is paid to refuting contempory theists such as platinga and swinburne pages isbn hardcover paperback also available the case against christianity temple university press a comprehensive critique of christianity in which he considers the best contemporary defences of christianity and ultimately demonstrates that they are unsupportable and or incoherent pages isbn james turner without god without creed the johns hopkins university press baltimore md usa subtitled the origins of unbelief in america examines the way in which unbelief whether agnostic or atheistic became a mainstream alternative world view focusses on the period and while considering france and britain the emphasis is on american and particularly new england developments neither a religious history of secularization or atheism without god without creed is rather the intellectual history of the fate of a single idea the belief that god exists pages isbn hardcover x paper george seldes editor the great thoughts ballantine books new york usa a dictionary of quotations of a different kind concentrating on statements and writings which explicitly or implicitly present the person s philosophy and world view includes obscure and often suppressed opinions from many people for some popular observations traces the way in which various people expressed and twisted the idea over the centuries quite a number of the quotations are derived from cardiff s what great men think of religion and noyes views of religion pages isbn paper x richard swinburne the existence of god revised edition clarendon paperbacks oxford this book is the second volume in a trilogy that began with the coherence of theism and was concluded with faith and reason in this work swinburne attempts to construct a series of inductive arguments for the existence of god his arguments which are somewhat tendentious and rely upon the imputation of late th century western christian values and aesthetics to a god which is supposedly as simple as can be conceived were decisively rejected in mackie s the miracle of theism in the revised edition of the existence of god swinburne includes an appendix in which he makes a somewhat incoherent attempt to rebut mackie j l mackie the miracle of theism oxford this posthumous volume contains a comprehensive review of the principal arguments for and against the existence of god it ranges from the classical philosophical positions of descartes anselm berkeley hume et al through the moral arguments of newman kant and sidgwick to the recent restatements of the classical theses by plantinga and swinburne it also addresses those positions which push the concept of god beyond the realm of the rational such as those of kierkegaard kung and philips as well as replacements for god such as lelie s axiarchism the book is a delight to read less formalistic and better written than martin s works and refreshingly direct when compared with the hand waving of swinburne james a haught holy horrors an illustrated history of religious murder and madness prometheus books looks at religious persecution from ancient times to the present day and not only by christians library of congress catalog card number norm r allen jr african american humanism an anthology see the listing for african americans for humanism above gordon stein an anthology of atheism and rationalism prometheus books an anthology covering a wide range of subjects including the devil evil and morality and the history of freethought comprehensive bibliography edmund d cohen the mind of the bible believer prometheus books a study of why people become christian fundamentalists and what effect it has on them net resources there s a small mail based archive server at mantis co uk which carries archives of old alt atheism moderated articles and assorted other files for more information send mail to archive server mantis co uk saying help send atheism index and it will mail back a reply mathew
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq introduction to atheism archive name atheism introduction alt atheism archive name introduction last modified april version begin pgp signed message an introduction to atheism by mathew mathew mantis co uk this article attempts to provide a general introduction to atheism whilst i have tried to be as neutral as possible regarding contentious issues you should always remember that this document represents only one viewpoint i would encourage you to read widely and draw your own conclusions some relevant books are listed in a companion article to provide a sense of cohesion and progression i have presented this article as an imaginary conversation between an atheist and a theist all the questions asked by the imaginary theist are questions which have been cropped up repeatedly on alt atheism since the newsgroup was created some other frequently asked questions are answered in a companion article please note that this article is arguably slanted towards answering questions posed from a christian viewpoint this is because the faq files reflect questions which have actually been asked and it is predominantly christians who proselytize on alt atheism so when i talk of religion i am talking primarily about religions such as christianity judaism and islam which involve some sort of superhuman divine being much of the discussion will apply to other religions but some of it may not what is atheism atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of god some atheists go further and believe that god does not exist the former is often referred to as the weak atheist position and the latter as strong atheism it is important to note the difference between these two positions weak atheism is simple scepticism disbelief in the existence of god strong atheism is a positive belief that god does not exist please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are strong atheists some atheists believe in the non existence of all gods others limit their atheism to specific gods such as the christian god rather than making flat out denials but isn t disbelieving in god the same thing as believing he doesn t exist definitely not disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true not believing that something is true is not equivalent to believing that it is false one may simply have no idea whether it is true or not which brings us to agnosticism what is agnosticism then the term agnosticism was coined by professor huxley at a meeting of the metaphysical society in he defined an agnostic as someone who disclaimed strong atheism and believed that the ultimate origin of things must be some cause unknown and unknowable thus an agnostic is someone who believes that we do not and cannot know for sure whether god exists words are slippery things and language is inexact beware of assuming that you can work out someone s philosophical point of view simply from the fact that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic for example many people use agnosticism to mean weak atheism and use the word atheism only when referring to strong atheism beware also that because the word atheist has so many shades of meaning it is very difficult to generalize about atheists about all you can say for sure is that atheists don t believe in god for example it certainly isn t the case that all atheists believe that science is the best way to find out about the universe so what is the philosophical justification or basis for atheism there are many philosophical justifications for atheism to find out why a particular person chooses to be an atheist it s best to ask her many atheists feel that the idea of god as presented by the major religions is essentially self contradictory and that it is logically impossible that such a god could exist others are atheists through scepticism because they see no evidence that god exists but isn t it impossible to prove the non existence of something there are many counter examples to such a statement for example it is quite simple to prove that there does not exist a prime number larger than all other prime numbers of course this deals with well defined objects obeying well defined rules whether gods or universes are similarly well defined is a matter for debate however assuming for the moment that the existence of a god is not provably impossible there are still subtle reasons for assuming the non existence of god if we assume that something does not exist it is always possible to show that this assumption is invalid by finding a single counter example if on the other hand we assume that something does exist and if the thing in question is not provably impossible showing that the assumption is invalid may require an exhaustive search of all possible places where such a thing might be found to show that it isn t there such an exhaustive search is often impractical or impossible there is no such problem with largest primes because we can prove that they don t exist therefore it is generally accepted that we must assume things do not exist unless we have evidence that they do even theists follow this rule most of the time they don t believe in unicorns even though they can t conclusively prove that no unicorns exist anywhere to assume that god exists is to make an assumption which probably cannot be tested we cannot make an exhaustive search of everywhere god might be to prove that he doesn t exist anywhere so the sceptical atheist assumes by default that god does not exist since that is an assumption we can test those who profess strong atheism usually do not claim that no sort of god exists instead they generally restrict their claims so as to cover varieties of god described by followers of various religions so whilst it may be impossible to prove conclusively that no god exists it may be possible to prove that say a god as described by a particular religious book does not exist it may even be possible to prove that no god described by any present day religion exists in practice believing that no god described by any religion exists is very close to believing that no god exists however it is sufficiently different that counter arguments based on the impossibility of disproving every kind of god are not really applicable but what if god is essentially non detectable if god interacts with our universe in any way the effects of his interaction must be measurable hence his interaction with our universe must be detectable if god is essentially non detectable it must therefore be the case that he does not interact with our universe in any way many atheists would argue that if god does not interact with our universe at all it is of no importance whether he exists or not if the bible is to be believed god was easily detectable by the israelites surely he should still be detectable today note that i am not demanding that god interact in a scientifically verifiable physical way it must surely be possible to perceive some effect caused by his presence though otherwise how can i distinguish him from all the other things that don t exist ok you may think there s a philosophical justification for atheism but isn t it still a religious belief one of the most common pastimes in philosophical discussion is the redefinition game the cynical view of this game is as follows person a begins by making a contentious statement when person b points out that it can t be true person a gradually re defines the words he used in the statement until he arrives at something person b is prepared to accept he then records the statement along with the fact that person b has agreed to it and continues eventually a uses the statement as an agreed fact but uses his original definitions of all the words in it rather than the obscure redefinitions originally needed to get b to agree to it rather than be seen to be apparently inconsistent b will tend to play along the point of this digression is that the answer to the question isn t atheism a religious belief depends crucially upon what is meant by religious religion is generally characterized by belief in a superhuman controlling power especially in some sort of god and by faith and worship it s worth pointing out in passing that some varieties of buddhism are not religion according to such a definition atheism is certainly not a belief in any sort of superhuman power nor is it categorized by worship in any meaningful sense widening the definition of religious to encompass atheism tends to result in many other aspects of human behaviour suddenly becoming classed as religious as well such as science politics and watching tv ok so it s not a religion but surely belief in atheism or science is still just an act of faith like religion is firstly it s not entirely clear that sceptical atheism is something one actually believes in secondly it is necessary to adopt a number of core beliefs or assumptions to make some sort of sense out of the sensory data we experience most atheists try to adopt as few core beliefs as possible and even those are subject to questioning if experience throws them into doubt science has a number of core assumptions for example it is generally assumed that the laws of physics are the same for all observers these are the sort of core assumptions atheists make if such basic ideas are called acts of faith then almost everything we know must be said to be based on acts of faith and the term loses its meaning faith is more often used to refer to complete certain belief in something according to such a definition atheism and science are certainly not acts of faith of course individual atheists or scientists can be as dogmatic as religious followers when claiming that something is certain this is not a general tendency however there are many atheists who would be reluctant to state with certainty that the universe exists faith is also used to refer to belief without supporting evidence or proof sceptical atheism certainly doesn t fit that definition as sceptical atheism has no beliefs strong atheism is closer but still doesn t really match as even the most dogmatic atheist will tend to refer to experimental data or the lack of it when asserting that god does not exist if atheism is not religious surely it s anti religious it is an unfortunate human tendency to label everyone as either for or against friend or enemy the truth is not so clear cut atheism is the position that runs logically counter to theism in that sense it can be said to be anti religion however when religious believers speak of atheists being anti religious they usually mean that the atheists have some sort of antipathy or hatred towards theists this categorization of atheists as hostile towards religion is quite unfair atheist attitudes towards theists in fact cover a broad spectrum most atheists take a live and let live attitude unless questioned they will not usually mention their atheism except perhaps to close friends of course this may be in part because atheism is not socially acceptable in many countries a few atheists are quite anti religious and may even try to convert others when possible historically such anti religious atheists have made little impact on society outside the eastern bloc countries to digress slightly the soviet union was originally dedicated to separation of church and state just like the usa soviet citizens were legally free to worship as they wished the institution of state atheism came about when stalin took control of the soviet union and tried to destroy the churches in order to gain complete power over the population some atheists are quite vocal about their beliefs but only where they see religion encroaching on matters which are not its business for example the government of the usa such individuals are usually concerned that church and state should remain separate but if you don t allow religion to have a say in the running of the state surely that s the same as state atheism the principle of the separation of church and state is that the state shall not legislate concerning matters of religious belief in particular it means not only that the state cannot promote one religion at the expense of another but also that it cannot promote any belief which is religious in nature religions can still have a say in discussion of purely secular matters for example religious believers have historically been responsible for encouraging many political reforms even today many organizations campaigning for an increase in spending on foreign aid are founded as religious campaigns so long as they campaign concerning secular matters and so long as they do not discriminate on religious grounds most atheists are quite happy to see them have their say what about prayer in schools if there s no god why do you care if people pray because people who do pray are voters and lawmakers and tend to do things that those who don t pray can t just ignore also christian prayer in schools is intimidating to non christians even if they are told that they need not join in the diversity of religious and non religious belief means that it is impossible to formulate a meaningful prayer that will be acceptable to all those present at any public event also non prayers tend to have friends and family who pray it is reasonable to care about friends and family wasting their time even without other motives you mentioned christians who campaign for increased foreign aid what about atheists why aren t there any atheist charities or hospitals don t atheists object to the religious charities there are many charities without religious purpose that atheists can contribute to some atheists contribute to religious charities as well for the sake of the practical good they do some atheists even do voluntary work for charities founded on a theistic basis most atheists seem to feel that atheism isn t worth shouting about in connection with charity to them atheism is just a simple obvious everyday matter and so is charity many feel that it s somewhat cheap not to say self righteous to use simple charity as an excuse to plug a particular set of religious beliefs to weak atheists building a hospital to say i do not believe in god is a rather strange idea it s rather like holding a party to say today is not my birthday why the fuss atheism is rarely evangelical you said atheism isn t anti religious but is it perhaps a backlash against one s upbringing a way of rebelling perhaps it is for some but many people have parents who do not attempt to force any religious or atheist ideas upon them and many of those people choose to call themselves atheists it s also doubtless the case that some religious people chose religion as a backlash against an atheist upbringing as a way of being different on the other hand many people choose religion as a way of conforming to the expectations of others on the whole we can t conclude much about whether atheism or religion are backlash or conformism although in general people have a tendency to go along with a group rather than act or think independently how do atheists differ from religious people they don t believe in god that s all there is to it atheists may listen to heavy metal backwards even or they may prefer a verdi requiem even if they know the words they may wear hawaiian shirts they may dress all in black they may even wear orange robes many buddhists lack a belief in any sort of god some atheists even carry a copy of the bible around for arguing against of course whoever you are the chances are you have met several atheists without realising it atheists are usually unexceptional in behaviour and appearance unexceptional but aren t atheists less moral than religious people that depends if you define morality as obedience to god then of course atheists are less moral as they don t obey any god but usually when one talks of morality one talks of what is acceptable right and unacceptable wrong behaviour within society humans are social animals and to be maximally successful they must co operate with each other this is a good enough reason to discourage most atheists from anti social or immoral behaviour purely for the purposes of self preservation many atheists behave in a moral or compassionate way simply because they feel a natural tendency to empathize with other humans so why do they care what happens to others they don t know they simply are that way naturally there are some people who behave immorally and try to use atheism to justify their actions however there are equally many people who behave immorally and then try to use religious beliefs to justify their actions for example here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance jesus christ came into the world to save sinners but for that very reason i was shown mercy so that in me jesus christ might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life now to the king eternal immortal invisible the only god be honor and glory forever and ever the above quote is from a statement made to the court on february th by jeffrey dahmer the notorious cannibal serial killer of milwaukee wisconsin it seems that for every atheist mass murderer there is a religious mass murderer but what of more trivial morality a survey conducted by the roper organization found that behavior deteriorated after born again experiences while only of respondents said they had driven intoxicated before being born again had done so after conversion similarly had used illegal drugs before conversion after two percent admitted to engaging in illicit sex before salvation after freethought today september p so it seems that at best religion does not have a monopoly on moral behaviour is there such a thing as atheist morality if you mean is there such a thing as morality for atheists then the answer is yes as explained above many atheists have ideas about morality which are at least as strong as those held by religious people if you mean does atheism have a characteristic moral code then the answer is no atheism by itself does not imply anything much about how a person will behave most atheists follow many of the same moral rules as theists but for different reasons atheists view morality as something created by humans according to the way humans feel the world ought to work rather than seeing it as a set of rules decreed by a supernatural being then aren t atheists just theists who are denying god a study by the freedom from religion foundation found that over of the atheists who responded became atheists because religion did not work for them they had found that religious beliefs were fundamentally incompatible with what they observed around them atheists are not unbelievers through ignorance or denial they are unbelievers through choice the vast majority of them have spent time studying one or more religions sometimes in very great depth they have made a careful and considered decision to reject religious beliefs this decision may of course be an inevitable consequence of that individual s personality for a naturally sceptical person the choice of atheism is often the only one that makes sense and hence the only choice that person can honestly make but don t atheists want to believe in god atheists live their lives as though there is nobody watching over them many of them have no desire to be watched over no matter how good natured the big brother figure might be some atheists would like to be able to believe in god but so what should one believe things merely because one wants them to be true the risks of such an approach should be obvious atheists often decide that wanting to believe something is not enough there must be evidence for the belief but of course atheists see no evidence for the existence of god they are unwilling in their souls to see many if not most atheists were previously religious as has been explained above the vast majority have seriously considered the possibility that god exists many atheists have spent time in prayer trying to reach god of course it is true that some atheists lack an open mind but assuming that all atheists are biased and insincere is offensive and closed minded comments such as of course god is there you just aren t looking properly are likely to be viewed as patronizing certainly if you wish to engage in philosophical debate with atheists it is vital that you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are being sincere if they say that they have searched for god if you are not willing to believe that they are basically telling the truth debate is futile isn t the whole of life completely pointless to an atheist many atheists live a purposeful life they decide what they think gives meaning to life and they pursue those goals they try to make their lives count not by wishing for eternal life but by having an influence on other people who will live on for example an atheist may dedicate his life to political reform in the hope of leaving his mark on history it is a natural human tendency to look for meaning or purpose in random events however it is by no means obvious that life is the sort of thing that has a meaning to put it another way not everything which looks like a question is actually a sensible thing to ask some atheists believe that asking what is the meaning of life is as silly as asking what is the meaning of a cup of coffee they believe that life has no purpose or meaning it just is so how do atheists find comfort in time of danger there are many ways of obtaining comfort from family friends or even pets or on a less spiritual level from food or drink or tv that may sound rather an empty and vulnerable way to face danger but so what should individuals believe in things because they are comforting or should they face reality no matter how harsh it might be in the end it s a decision for the individual concerned most atheists are unable to believe something they would not otherwise believe merely because it makes them feel comfortable they put truth before comfort and consider that if searching for truth sometimes makes them feel unhappy that s just hard luck don t atheists worry that they might suddenly be shown to be wrong the short answer is no do you many atheists have been atheists for years they have encountered many arguments and much supposed evidence for the existence of god but they have found all of it to be invalid or inconclusive thousands of years of religious belief haven t resulted in any good proof of the existence of god atheists therefore tend to feel that they are unlikely to be proved wrong in the immediate future and they stop worrying about it so why should theists question their beliefs don t the same arguments apply no because the beliefs being questioned are not similar weak atheism is the sceptical default position to take it asserts nothing strong atheism is a negative belief theism is a very strong positive belief atheists sometimes also argue that theists should question their beliefs because of the very real harm they can cause not just to the believers but to everyone else what sort of harm religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind it s not just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings think of all the time and effort spent building churches praying and so on imagine how that effort could be better spent many theists believe in miracle healing there have been plenty of instances of ill people being healed by a priest ceasing to take the medicines prescribed to them by doctors and dying as a result some theists have died because they have refused blood transfusions on religious grounds it is arguable that the catholic church s opposition to birth control and condoms in particular is increasing the problem of overpopulation in many third world countries and contributing to the spread of aids world wide religious believers have been known to murder their children rather than allow their children to become atheists or marry someone of a different religion those weren t real believers they just claimed to be believers as some sort of excuse what makes a real believer there are so many one true religions it s hard to tell look at christianity there are many competing groups all convinced that they are the only true christians sometimes they even fight and kill each other how is an atheist supposed to decide who s a real christian and who isn t when even the major christian churches like the catholic church and the church of england can t decide amongst themselves in the end most atheists take a pragmatic view and decide that anyone who calls himself a christian and uses christian belief or dogma to justify his actions should be considered a christian maybe some of those christians are just perverting christian teaching for their own ends but surely if the bible can be so readily used to support un christian acts it can t be much of a moral code if the bible is the word of god why couldn t he have made it less easy to misinterpret and how do you know that your beliefs aren t a perversion of what your god intended if there is no single unambiguous interpretation of the bible then why should an atheist take one interpretation over another just on your say so sorry but if someone claims that he believes in jesus and that he murdered others because jesus and the bible told him to do so we must call him a christian obviously those extreme sorts of beliefs should be questioned but since nobody has ever proved that god does not exist it must be very unlikely that more basic religious beliefs shared by all faiths are nonsense that does not hold because as was pointed out at the start of this dialogue positive assertions concerning the existence of entities are inherently much harder to disprove than negative ones nobody has ever proved that unicorns don t exist but that doesn t make it unlikely that they are myths it is therefore much more valid to hold a negative assertion by default than it is to hold a positive assertion by default of course weak atheists would argue that asserting nothing is better still well if atheism s so great why are there so many theists unfortunately the popularity of a belief has little to do with how correct it is or whether it works consider how many people believe in astrology graphology and other pseudo sciences many atheists feel that it is simply a human weakness to want to believe in gods certainly in many primitive human societies religion allows the people to deal with phenomena that they do not adequately understand of course there s more to religion than that in the industrialized world we find people believing in religious explanations of phenomena even when there are perfectly adequate natural explanations religion may have started as a means of attempting to explain the world but nowadays it serves other purposes as well but so many cultures have developed religions surely that must say something not really most religions are only superficially similar for example it s worth remembering that religions such as buddhism and taoism lack any sort of concept of god in the christian sense of course most religions are quick to denounce competing religions so it s rather odd to use one religion to try and justify another what about all the famous scientists and philosophers who have concluded that god exists for every scientist or philosopher who believes in a god there is one who does not besides as has already been pointed out the truth of a belief is not determined by how many people believe it also it is important to realize that atheists do not view famous scientists or philosophers in the same way that theists view their religious leaders a famous scientist is only human she may be an expert in some fields but when she talks about other matters her words carry no special weight many respected scientists have made themselves look foolish by speaking on subjects which lie outside their fields of expertise so are you really saying that widespread belief in religion indicates nothing not entirely it certainly indicates that the religion in question has properties which have helped it so spread so far the theory of memetics talks of memes sets of ideas which can propagate themselves between human minds by analogy with genes some atheists view religions as sets of particularly successful parasitic memes which spread by encouraging their hosts to convert others some memes avoid destruction by discouraging believers from questioning doctrine or by using peer pressure to keep one time believers from admitting that they were mistaken some religious memes even encourage their hosts to destroy hosts controlled by other memes of course in the memetic view there is no particular virtue associated with successful propagation of a meme religion is not a good thing because of the number of people who believe it any more than a disease is a good thing because of the number of people who have caught it even if religion is not entirely true at least it puts across important messages what are the fundamental messages of atheism there are many important ideas atheists promote the following are just a few of them don t be surprised to see ideas which are also present in some religions there is more to moral behaviour than mindlessly following rules be especially sceptical of positive claims if you want your life to have some sort of meaning it s up to you to find it search for what is true even if it makes you uncomfortable make the most of your life as it s probably the only one you ll have it s no good relying on some external power to change you you must change yourself just because something s popular doesn t mean it s good if you must assume something assume something it s easy to test don t believe things just because you want them to be true and finally and most importantly all beliefs should be open to question thanks for taking the time to read this article mathew for information about pgp send mail to pgpinfo mantis co uk
alt.atheism	re gospel dating in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes well john has a quite different not necessarily more elaborated theology there is some evidence that he must have known luke and that the content of q was known to him but not in a canonized form this is a new argument to me could you elaborate a little the argument goes as follows q oid quotes appear in john but not in the almost codified way they were in matthew or luke however they are considered to be similar enough to point to knowledge of q as such and not an entirely different source assuming that he knew luke would obviously put him after luke and would give evidence for the latter assumption i don t think this follows if you take the most traditional attributions then luke might have known john but john is an elder figure in either case we re talking spans of time here which are well within the range of lifetimes we are talking date of texts here not the age of the authors the usual explanation for the time order of mark matthew and luke does not consider their respective ages it says matthew has read the text of mark and luke that of matthew and probably that of mark as it is assumed that john knew the content of luke s text the evidence for that is not overwhelming admittedly earlier manuscripts of john have been discovered interesting where and which how are they dated how old are they unfortunately i haven t got the info at hand it was i think in the late s or early s and it was possibly as old as ce when they are from about why do they shed doubt on the order on putting john after the rest of the three i don t see your point it is exactly what james felder said they had no first hand knowledge of the events and it obvious that at least two of them used older texts as the base of their account and even the association of luke to paul or mark to peter are not generally accepted well a genuine letter of peter would be close enough wouldn t it sure an original together with id card of sender and receiver would be fine so what s that supposed to say am i missing something and i don t think a one step removed source is that bad if luke and mark and matthew learned their stories directly from diciples then i really cannot believe in the sort of big transformation from jesus to gospel that some people posit in news reports one generally gets no better information than this and if john is a diciple then there s nothing more to be said that john was a disciple is not generally accepted the style and language together with the theology are usually used as counterargument the argument that john was a disciple relies on the claim in the gospel of john itself is there any other evidence for it one step and one generation removed is bad even in our times compare that to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies not even to speak off that believers are not necessarily the best sources it is also obvious that mark has been edited how old are the oldest manuscripts to my knowledge which can be antiquated the oldest is quite after any of these estimates and it is not even complete the only clear editing is problem of the ending and it s basically a hopeless mess the oldest versions give a strong sense of incompleteness to the point where the shortest versions seem to break off in midsentence the most obvious solution is that at some point part of the text was lost the material from verse on is pretty clearly later and seems to represent a synopsys of the end of luke in other words one does not know what the original of mark did look like and arguments based on mark are pretty weak but how is that connected to a redating of john benedikt
alt.atheism	re university violating separation of church state dmn kepler unh edu until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings writes recently ras have been ordered and none have resisted or cared about it apparently to post a religious flyer entitled the soul scroll thoughts on religion spirituality and matters of the soul on the inside of bathroom stall doors at my school the university of new hampshire it is some sort of newsletter assembled by a hall director somewhere on campus it poses a question about spirituality each issue and solicits responses to be included in the next issue it s all pretty vague i assume it s put out by a christian but they re very careful not to mention jesus or the bible i ve heard someone defend it saying well it doesn t support any one religion so what this is a state university and as a strong supporter of the separation of church and state i was enraged what can i do about this it sounds to me like it s just screaming out for parody give a copy to your friendly neighbourhood subgenius preacher with luck he ll run it through the mental mincer and hand you back an outrageously offensive and gut bustingly funny parody you can paste over the originals i can see it now the stool scroll thoughts on religion spirituality and matters of the colon you can use this text to wipe mathew
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts in article n hy apr harder ccr p ida org n hy harder ccr p ida org bob mcgwier writes however i hate economic terrorism and political correctness worse than i hate this policy a more effective approach is to stop donating to any organizating that directly or indirectly supports gay rights issues until they end the boycott on funding of scouts can somebody reconcile the apparent contradiction between and rob strom strom watson ibm com ibm research saw mill river road p o box yorktown heights ny
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes didn t you say lucifer was created with a perfect nature yes define perfect then i think you are playing the usual game here make sweeping statements like omni holy or perfect and don t note that they mean exactly what they say and that says that you must not use this terms when it leads to contradictions i m not trying to play games here but i understand how it might seem that way especially when one is coming from a completely different point of view such as atheism take your foot out of your mouth i wondered about that already when i was a catholic christian the fact that the contradiction is unresolvable is one of the reasons why i am an atheist believe me i believed similar sentences for a long time but that shows the power of religion and not anything about its claims now god could have prevented lucifer s fall by taking away his ability to choose between moral alternatives worship god or worship himself but that would mean that god was in error to have make lucifer or any being with free will in the first place exactly god allows evil an evil if there ever was one now that s an opinion or at best a premise but from my point of view it is not a premise which is necessary true specifically that it is an evil to allow evil to occur it follows from a definition of evil as ordinarily used letting evil happen or allowing evil to take place in this place even causing evil is another evil but could you give a definition of free will especially in the presence of an omniscient being will is self determination in other words god created conscious beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently of god all will therefore is free will the omniscient attribute of god will know what the creatures will do even before the omnipotent has created them there is no choice left all is known the course of events is fixed not even for the omniscient itself to extend an argument by james tims if god is omniscient then clearly creating beings with free moral choice is a greater good than the emergence of ungodliness evil sin since he created them knowing the outcome in advance why is it the greater good to allow evil with the knowledge that it will happen why not make a unipolar system with the possibility of doing good or not doing good but that does not necessarily imply doing evil it is logically possible but your god has not done it i do not know that such is logically possible if god restrains a free being s choice to choose to do evil and simply do not good then can it be said that the being truly has a free moral choice and if good is defined as loving and obeying god and avoiding those behaviors which god prohibits then how can you say that one who is not good is not evil as well like i said i am not sure that doing not good without doing evil is logically possible and when i am not omnipotent how can i have free will you have said something about choices and the scenario gives them therefore we have what you define as free will imagine the following i can do good to other beings but i cannot harm them easily implemented by making everyone appreciate being the object of good deeds but don t make them long for them so they can not feel the absence of good as evil but whose case am i arguing it is conceivable so the omnipotent can do it or it would not be omnipotent if you want logically consistent as well you have to give up the pet idea of an omnipotent first deletion perhaps it is weak in a way if i were just speculating about the ubiquitous pink unicorns then there would be no basis for such speculation but this idea of god didn t just fall on me out of the blue or while reading science fiction or fantasy i know that some will disagree the bible describes a god who is omniscient and nevertheless created beings with free moral choice from which the definitional logic follows but that s not all there is to it there seems to be at least in my mind a certain amount of evidence which indicates that god exists and that the biblical description of him may be a fair one it is that evidence which bolsters the argument in my view that the bible describes an omniscient and omnipotent god destroys the credibility of the bible nothing less and a lot of people would be interested in evidence for a god unfortunately there can t be any with these definitions benedikt
alt.atheism	re political atheists arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes the motto originated in the star spangled banner tell me that this has something to do with atheists the motto on coins originated as a mccarthyite smear which equated atheism with communism and called both unamerican no it didn t the motto has been on various coins since the civil war it was just required to be on all currency in the s keith
alt.atheism	re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes when they are victimized they are muslims when they victimize others they are not true muslims tm or no muslims at all quite annoying i don t understand the point of this petty sarcasm it is a basic principle of islam that if one is born muslim or one says i testify that there is no god but god and mohammad is a prophet of god that so long as one does not explicitly reject islam by word then one must be considered muslim by all muslims so the phenomenon you re attempting to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic islamic principles if you want to attack islam you could do better than than to argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts it was no criticism of islam for a change it was a criticism of the arguments used namely whenever people you identify as muslims are the victims of the attacks of others they are used an argument for the bad situation of muslims but whenever deeds by muslim that victimize others are named they do not count as an argument because what these people did was not done as a true muslims no mention is made how muslims are the cause of a bad situation of another party double standards benedikt
alt.atheism	re political atheists reference line trimmed livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes there is a good deal more confusion here you started off with the assertion that there was some objective morality and as you admit here you finished up with a recursive definition murder is objectively immoral but eactly what is murder and what is not itself requires an appeal to morality yes now you have switch targets a little but only a little now you are asking what is the goal what do you mean by goal are you suggesting that there is some objective goal out there somewhere and we form our morals to achieve it well for example the goal of natural morality is the survival and propogation of the species another example of a moral system is presented within the declaration of independence which states that we should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness you see to have a moral system we must define the purpose of the system that is we shall be moral unto what end murder is certainly a violation of the golden rule and i thought i had defined murder as an intentional killing of a non murderer against his will and you responded to this by asking whether or not the execution of an innocent person under our system of capital punishment was a murder or not i fail to see what this has to do with anything i never claimed that our system of morality was an objective one i thought that was your very first claim that there was some kind of objective morality and that an example of that was that murder is wrong if you don t want to claim that any more that s fine well murder violates the golen rule which is certainly a pillar of most every moral system however i am not assuming that our current system and the manner of its implementation are objectively moral i think that it is a very good approximation but we can t be perfect and by the way you don t seem to understand the difference between arbitrary and objective if keith schneider defines murder to be this that and the other that s arbitrary jon livesey may still say well according to my personal system of morality all killing of humans against their will is murder and wrong and what the legal definition of murder may be in the usa kuweit saudi arabia or the prc may be matters not a whit to me well objective would assume a system based on clear and fundamental concepts while arbitary implies no clear line of reasoning keith
alt.atheism	re pompous ass kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes then why do people keep asking the same questions over and over because you rarely ever answer them nope i ve answered each question posed and most were answered multiple times keith
alt.atheism	re pompous ass livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes how long does it the motto have to stay around before it becomes the default where s the cutoff point i don t know where the exact cutoff is but it is at least after a few years and surely after years why does the notion of default not take into account changes in population makeup specifically which changes are you talking about are you arguing that the motto is interpreted as offensive by a larger portion of the population now than years ago keith
alt.atheism	re keith schneider stealth poster sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes to borrow from philosophy you don t truly understand the color red until you have seen it not true even if you have experienced the color red you still might have a different interpretation of it but you wouldn t know what red was and you certainly couldn t judge it subjectively and objectivity is not applicable since you are wanting to discuss the merits of red keith
alt.atheism	re keith schneider stealth poster arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes but if you were to discuss the merits of racism or its psycholgical benefits you would do well to have experienced it personally when you speak of experiencing religion you mean someone should believe in a religion that s right and this is pretty impossible right it would be ideal if we could believe for a while just to try out religion and only then determine which course of thought suits us best but again this is not possible not that religion warrants belief but the belief carries with it some psychological benefits there are also some psychological burdens too when you speak of experiencing racism do you mean that someone should believe in racism or that they should have racist things done to them for parallelism the former must be what you meant but it seems to be an odd usage of the phrase well if there were some psychological or other benefits gained from racism they could only be fully understood or judged by persons actually believing in racism of course the parallel happens to be a poor one but you originated it keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes but you don t know that capital punishment is wrong so it isn t the same as shooting a better analogy would be that you continue to drive your car realizing that sooner or later someone is going to be killed in an automobile accident you know people get killed as a result of driving yet you continue to do it anyway uh uh you do not know that you will be the one to do the killing i m not sure i d drive a car if i had sufficient evidence to conclude that i would necessarily kill someone during my lifetime yes and everyone thinks as you do no one thinks that he is going to cause or be involved in a fatal accident but the likelihood is surprisingly high just because you are the man on the firing squad whose gun is shooting blanks does not mean that you are less guilty i don t know about jon but i say all taking of human life is murder and i say murder is wrong in all but one situation when it is the only action that will prevent another murder either of myself or another you mean that killing is wrong in all but one situtation and you should note that that situation will never occur there are always other options thank killing why don t you just say that all killing is wrong this is basically what you are saying i m getting a bit tired of your probabilistic arguments are you attempting to be condescending that the system usually works pretty well is small consolation to the poor innocent bastard getting the lethal injection is your personal value of human life based solely on a statistical approach you sound like an unswerving adherent to the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few so fuck the few but most people have found the risk to be acceptable you are probably much more likely to die in a plane crash or even using an electric blender than you are to be executed as an innocent i personally think that the risk is acceptable but in an ideal moral system no such risk is acceptable acceptable is the fudge factor necessary in such an approximation to the ideal keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes i think that about or so people approve of the death penalty even realizing all of its shortcomings doesn t this make it reasonable or are you the sole judge of reasonability aside from revenge what merits do you find in capital punishment are we talking about me or the majority of the people that support it anyway i think that revenge or fairness is why most people are in favor of the punishment if a murderer is going to be punished people that think that he should get what he deserves most people wouldn t think it would be fair for the murderer to live while his victim died revenge petty and pathetic perhaps you think that it is petty and pathetic but your views are in the minority we have a local televised hot topic talk show that very recently did a segment on capital punishment each and every advocate of the use of this portion of our system of jurisprudence cited the main reason for supporting it that bastard deserved it true human compassion forgiveness and sympathy where are we required to have compassion forgiveness and sympathy if someone wrongs me i will take great lengths to make sure that his advantage is removed or a similar situation is forced upon him if someone kills another then we can apply the golden rule and kill this person in turn is not our entire moral system based on such a concept or are you stating that human life is sacred somehow and that it should never be violated this would sound like some sort of religious view i mean how reasonable is imprisonment really when you think about it sure the person could be released if found innocent but you still can t undo the imiprisonment that was served perhaps we shouldn t imprision people if we could watch them closely instead the cost would probably be similar especially if we just implanted some sort of electronic device would you rather be alive in prison or dead in the chair once a criminal has committed a murder his desires are irrelevant and you still have not answered my question if you are concerned about the death penalty due to the possibility of the execution of an innocent then why isn t this same concern shared with imprisonment shouldn t we by your logic administer as minimum as punishment as possible to avoid violating the liberty or happiness of an innocent person keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes if i kill this person an innocent person convicted of murder then a murder would be committed but i would not be the murderer at least i wouldn t reasonably be considered a murderer with reasonable being introduced as a fudge factor necessary to account for the inability to be totally objective due to a lack of absolutely true information if society collective decides to carry the burden of executing it s citizens then it also carries the blame for their innocent blood each and every voter who casts a ballot in favor of capital punishment is in part guilty of the murder of each and every innocent victim of the system why are only those people in favor of the system to blame if society accepts such a system then each member of society is to blame when an innocent person gets executed those that are not in favor should work to convince others and most members of our society have accepted the blame they ve considered the risk to be acceptable similarly every person who drives must accept the blame for fatal traffic accidents this is something that is surely going to happen when so many people are driving it is all a question of what risk is acceptable it is much more likely that an innocent person will be killed driving than it is that one will be executed keith
alt.atheism	re don t more innocents die without the death penalty in article p psilink com p psilink com james f tims writes by maintaining classes d and e even in prison it seems as if we place more innocent people at a higher risk of an unjust death than we would if the state executed classes d and e with an occasional error i answer from the position that we would indeed place these people in prison for life that depends not only on their predisposition towards murder but also in their success rate at escape and therefore their ability to commit the same crimes again in other words if lifetime imprisonment doesn t work perhaps it s not because we re not executing these people but because we re not being careful enough about how we lock them up bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re ancient islamic rituals in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes i propose that these two trends greater level of general depression in society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being a prime cause of the former i cannot provide any evidence beyond this at this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable to me and i request that people ponder upon it damn right you can t provide any evidence for it rarely are any widespread social phenomenon reducible to such a simple premise if they were psychology would be a hard science with roughly the same mathematical soundness as physics your premise may well be right it is much more likely however that it reflects your socialization and religious background as well as your need to validate your religious beliefs were i to pretend to have all the answers and i don t i would say that the xenophobia guilt and intolerance brought about by adherence to fundamentalist religions play just as large a role in depressing the members of our society your mileage obviously varies bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article apr blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article pj bs d j fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i would say that one innocent person killed is in some sense as bad as many we certainly feel that way when we punish someone for a single murder now if we reform system x by reducing the number of deaths by one we produce system xx i d say we should not go back to system x even though by doing so we would re introduce only a single extra death bob seems to think that one is as bad as many in a sense somewhat stronger than the one you indicate yes i do my argument is that the sole purpose of the death penalty is to kill people that is it s primary and i would argue only purpose to continue to kill people by a practice that has almost no utility especially when you know you will be killing innocents is unconscionable at the very least the existence of the prison system and our transportation system are based on their merits to society not their detriments we are willing to accept a few lost innocent lives because there is an overwhelming benefit to the continued existence of these systems one has to stretch the evidence and the arguments to make the same claim for capital punishment just in case i wasn t clear again we maintain a capital punsihment system that kills innocent people and provides us with no net positive gain why were you to pin me in a corner and ask i would have to respond that i don t belief the state should have the right to take life at all but i won t open that debate as it seems others are tiring of this thread on a a anyway bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re there must be a creator maybe in article ba e drporter suvm syr edu drporter suvm syr edu brad porter writes science is wonderful at answering most of our questions i m not the type to question scientific findings very often but personally i find the theory of evolution to be unfathomable could humans a highly evolved complex organism that thinks learns and develops truly be an organism that resulted from random genetic mutations and natural selection stuff deleted computers are an excellent example of evolution without a creator we did not create computers we did not create the sand that goes into the silicon that goes into the integrated circuits that go into processor board we took these things and put them together in an interesting way just like plants create oxygen using light through photosynthesis it s a much bigger leap to talk about something that created everything from nothing i find it unfathomable to resort to believing in a creator when a much simpler alternative exists we simply are incapable of understanding our beginnings if there even were beginnings at all and that s ok with me the present keeps me perfectly busy jim halat
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution in article j l rpi edu johnsd jec its rpi edu dan johnson writes in article io maine maine edu io maine maine edu writes dan johnson you don t know me but take this hand anyway bravo for go ds beautiful simply beautiful jim halat
alt.atheism	re speculations in article w rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes nanci ann miller nm w andrew cmu edu writes if this god is truly omnipotent as you folks like to claim then why can t he terminate eternity for the same reason he can t flibble glop ork groink the thing you are demanding that he must be able to do has no meaning in its own terms this is a classic example of excessive faith in reason the fact that we have trouble talking about something doesn t imply that it is impossible it simply implies that it is hard to talk about there is a very good chance that god can flibble glop ork groink charlie wingate can flibble glop ork groink and he isn t even god doug graham dgraham bnr ca my opinions are my own
alt.atheism	re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes much though it might be fun to debate capital punishment itself this is probably the wrong group for it the only relevance here is that you don t seem to be able to tell us what capital punishment actually is and when it is murder that is when you tell us murder is wrong you are using a term you have not yet defined well i ve said that when an innocent person has been executed this is objectively a murder however who is at blame is another question it seems that the entire society that sanctions any sorts of executions realizing the risks is to blame there is a probability of killing an innocent person by shooting at random into the air and there is a probability of killing an innocent person when the state administers a system of capital punishment so when you do either you know that they actions you are taking will sooner or later result in the killing of an innocent person yes but there is also a probablity that you will kill someone doing any raondom activity presumably you had not isolated yourself totally from the rest of society because of this and driving will kill people as will airlines but people continue to do both driving and flying are not punishments inflicted on unwilling prisoners by courts they are risks that we take upon ourselves willingly and i argue that our law system is a similar risk perhaps an innocent person will be punished someday but we work to prevent this in fact many criminals go free as a result of our trying to prevent punishment of innocents if our own driving kills someone else then sure there is a moral issue i know at least one person who was involved in a fatal accident and they felt vey guilty afterwards but such accidents are to be totally expected given the numner of vehicals on the road again the blame is on society no i m not this is what you said you were saying that if there were such a false witness that resulted in an innocent person being convicted and killed it would still be the fault of the state since it did the actual killing no i just commented that the state does the killing it does not depend on there being false witnesses how could it the state does the killing even in the case of sincere mistakes yes but the state is not at fault in such a case the state can only do so much to prevent false witnesses it is possible so what are you trying to say that capital punishment is always murder because of the possibilty of human error invalidating the system i m saying capital punishment is murder period not because of this that and the other but because it involves taking human life that s my definition of murder i make no appeals to dictionaries or to objective morals okay so this is what you call murder but the question is whether or not all such murders are wrong are you saying that all taking of human life is wrong no matter what the circumstances if we as a society decide to murder someone then we should say that and lists our reasons for doing so and live with the moral consequences we should not play word games and pretend that murder isn t murder and that s my opinion about how society ought to be run but this is basically how it works society accepts the risk that an innocent person will be murdered by execution and every member of society shares this blame and most people s definitions of murder include some sort of malicious intent which is not involved in an execution is it but we were trying to discuss an objective moral system or at least its possibilty what ramifications does your personal system have on an objective one no we were not discussing an objective moral system i was showing you that you didn t have one because for one thing you were incapable of defining the terms in it for example murder murder violates the golden rule executions do not because by allowing it at all society implicitly accepts the consequences no matter who the innocent victim is we re not talking about reading minds we are just talking about knowing the truth yes we can never be absolutely certain that we have the truth but the court systems work on a principle of knowing the truth beyond a reasonable doubt sorry but you simply are not quoting yourself accurately here is what you said and since we are looking totally objectively at this case then we know what people are thinking when they are voting to execute the person or not if the intent is malicious and unfair then the execution would be murder what you are doing now is to slide into another claim which is quite different the jury being persuaded beyond a serious doubt is not the same as us knowing what is in their minds beyond a serious doubt reading the minds of the jury would certainly tell whether or not a conviction was moral or not but in an objective system only the absolute truth matters and the jury system is one method to approximate such a truth that is twelve members must be convinced of a truth moreover a jury which comes from a sufficiently prejudiced background may allow itself to be persuaded beyond a serious doubt on evidence that you and i would laugh at but then if we read the minds of these people we would know that the conviction was unfair but would it be perfectly fair if we could read minds if we assume that it would be fair if we knew the absolute truth why is it so much less fair in your opinion if we only have a good approximation of the absolute truth it s not a question of fairness your claim which i have quoted above is a claim about whether we can know it was fair so as to be able to distinguish capital punishnment from murder yes while we could objectively determine the difference if we knew all possible information we can t always determine the difference in our flawed system i think that our system is almost as good as possible but it still isn t objectively perfect you see it doesn t matter if we know it is fair or not objectively it is either fair or it is not now there s a huge difference if we can read minds we can know and if we cannot read minds we can know nothing the difference is not in degree of fairness but in what we can know but what we know has no effect on an objective system i think it is possible to produce a fairly objective system if we are clear on which goals it is supposed to promote i m not going to waste my time trying to devise a system that i am pretty sure does not exist why are you so sure i simply want people to confront reality my reality remember why is your reality important in this case the reality is that ideal theories apart we can never know even after the fact about the fairness of the justice system for every innocent person released from death row there may have been a dozen innocent people executed or a hundred or none at all we simply don t know but we can assume that the system is fairly decent at least most likely and you realize that the correctness of our system says nothing about a totally ideal and objective system now what are we going to do on the one hand we can pretend that we have an ideal theory and that we can know things we can never know and the justie system is fair and that we can wave a magic wand and make certain types of killing not murder and go on our way well we can have an ideal system but the working system can not be ideal we can only hope to create a system that is as close an approximation to the ideal system as possible on the other hand we can recognize that all justice has a small we hope probability of punishing the innocent and that in the end we do bear moral responsibility even for the probabilistic consequences of the systems we set up and then say well here we go murdering again maybe some of us will even say gee i wonder if all this is strictly necessary yes we all bear the responsibility most people seem willing to do this i think that the second is preferable in that if requires people to face the moral consequences of what we do as a society instead of sheltering ourselves from them by magic ceremonies and word games we must realize the consequences of all our actions why do you keep separating the justice system from the pack and lest i forget i also don t think we have an objective moral system and i believe i only have to take that idea seriously when someone presents evidence of it i don t think our country has an objective system but i think such an objective system can exist in theory without omniscience an objective system is not possible in practice keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes now along comes mr keith schneider and says here is an objective moral system and then i start to ask him about the definitions that this objective system depends on and predictably the whole thing falls apart it only falls apart if you attempt to apply it this doesn t mean that an objective system can t exist it just means that one cannot be implemented keith
alt.atheism	re university violating separation of church state in article aa kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings writes recently ras have been ordered and none have resisted or cared about it apparently to post a religious flyer entitled the soul scroll thoughts on religion spirituality and matters of the soul on the inside of bathroom stall doors at my school the university of new hampshire it is some sort of newsletter assembled by a hall director somewhere on campus most of post deleted please respond as soon as possible i d like these religious postings to stop now thanks dana there is an easy way out post the flyers on the stall doors but add at the bottom in nice large capitals emergency toilet paper robert mellish fog ic uk email r mellish ic ac uk net rm sg cc ic ac uk irc hobnob and also the mrs joyful prize for rafia work
alt.atheism	re usatoday ad family values in article c rzz j unix portal com danb shell portal com dan e babcock writes there was a funny ad in usatoday from american family association i ll post a few choice parts for your enjoyment all emphases is in the ad i m not adding anything all the typos are mine dan s article deleted i found the same add in our local sunday newspaper the add was placed in the cartoon section the perfect place for it y k
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes my claim is that a person that committs a crime doesn t believe in god for the moment that the crime is committed at least whether they are originally believers or not to believe is to do good your statistics indicate people that have declared atheism and doubtless when an atheist does an act of charity they temporarily become a baptist jon
alt.atheism	re ancient islamic rituals in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes i propose that these two trends greater level of general depression in society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being a prime cause of the former i cannot provide any evidence beyond this at this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable to me and i request that people ponder upon it i pondered it for all of ten seconds when i realised that since we don t have any reliable statistics for sexual promiscuity and since the whole issue of depression isn t at all well defined for earlier centuries you are probably talking crap of course you could pull a mozumder on us and say that people who are having sex outside marriage are defined to be depressed i can t say i d ever noticed myself jon
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts in article apr cbnewsl cb att com stank cbnewsl cb att com stan krieger writes now can we please use rec scouting for the purpose for which it was established clearly we netnews voters decided that we did not want to provide a scouting newsgroup to give fringe groups a forum for their anti societal political views ok this is the only thing i will comment on from stan at this time part of this forum we call rec scouting is for policy discussions and related topics this is a policy discussion and involves related topics this is not a fringe group discussion obviously it engenders strong feelings from all sides of the issues at hand wether a particular view is anti societal or not is your opinion and yours alone don t try to make it seem otherwise if you do not wish to engage in this discussion use a kill file if you wish to continue in this discussion please do so knowing full well the implications that apply i know for myself that i plan on continuing with the discussion when i have the wish to have input i for one am tired of people trying to say that this is not a matter significant for this group it is and quite so especially for those of us who feel the impact more closely dominick v zurlo if the world s an www oyster why am i eagle scout allergic to mollusks blacklisted
alt.atheism	re political atheists mathew mathew mantis co uk writes as for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist not so if you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you blame the tiger keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists mathew mathew mantis co uk writes perhaps we shouldn t imprision people if we could watch them closely instead the cost would probably be similar especially if we just implanted some sort of electronic device why wait until they commit the crime why not implant such devices in potential criminals like communists and atheists sorry i don t follow your reasoning you are proposing to punish people before they commit a crime what justification do you have for this keith
alt.atheism	re enviroleague a new alternative to scouting for those unacceptable to bsa for reasons of religious or sexual preference from boyd r critz iii compuserve com subject enviroleague birth announcement on march from earth forum compuserve information service formal announcement sm enviroleague a new youth movement enviroleague was recently born according to its founder boyd r critz iii cis id of peoria illinois enviroleague exists for the education of youth both male and female in matters concerning their values related to and responsibility for our environment incorporated as an illinois not for profit corporation its articles and initial applications for a service mark have now been filed according to critz its draft bylaws contain the following statement of mission and objectives mission it is the mission of enviroleague and its adult members to foster and implement the improved education of young people in the need to conduct their lives as stewards of the earth to leave the earth in a better condition than they found it and to otherwise act as responsible moral and ethical users of their environment to pursue the accomplishment of this mission enviroleague shall seek to serve as a catalyst focusing in common cause the separate efforts of all groups desiring the preservation improvement and responsible use of the environment in which we must all live objectives in pursuit of the mission of enviroleague its primary objectives shall be to establish a movement involving as many environmentally concerned organizations as possible said movement having as its primary focus the education and participatory involvement of young people in appropriate areas of environmental concern to develop and provide to such organizations and their branches a full complement of program materials for their use including suitable uniforms insignia and other badges written ideas syllabi and information literature and other items as shall seem appropriate and desirable to serve as a clearing house for the exchange of program ideas materials and information among said organizations and to assist environmentally concerned organizations to recruit and train the necessary adult leadership for their youth programs enviroleague will operate through three program divisions serving youth in the elementary middle and high school grades respectively service shall be through formation of enviroleague teams either by enviroleague itself or by environmentally conscious organizations or their local branches wishing a charter to use programs developed by enviroleague enviroleague as it develops will be controlled by the actual adult leaders of each local team and will have no nationally imposed obstacles to membership or adult leadership status not based upon relevant improper conduct organizations accepting a charter may however impose certain additional standards for their own use of the program material should such organizations do so enviroleague will commit itself to forming as soon as possible new nearby teams having no such restrictions particularly as to youth membership enviroleague will operate on the principle that youth will have much to contribute to developing its programs thus the top youth leaders of its teams for middle and high school youth may become involved in governing any local administrative groups and those for its high school youth may be involved in similar functions at the national level program materials are in development at this time copies of the draft portions of the mentor s manual manual for adult leadership will be in the earth forum library these files will be updated as development takes place compuserve is particularly proud that enviroleague s founder chose this electronic medium to make the first public announcement of its formation this announcement is being made simultaneously in both the outdoor and earth forums the electronic home of enviroleague is in compuserve s earth forum go earth message and library areas both named enviroleague subsequently enviroleague s initial governance council has held its first meeting boyd critz was elected as the first enviroleague chief guardian equivalent to chairman of the board or ceo he can be reached at home in case of real need also mail can be addressed to enviroleague p o box peoria il those interested in starting an enviroleague team might just establish contact to receive a diskette ibm dos ascii with initial information cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
alt.atheism	idle questions for fellow atheists i wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of the world if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group of the population it is rather a ridiculous question in some ways i know but my newsreader is down so i am not getting any new postings for a bit so i figure i might as well post something new myself also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking the typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the same inherent motivation so one is not intrinsically different from the other qualitatively but then again a measuring stick must be drawn somewhere and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery ie how it expresses its own selfishness idle thoughts adam adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution in article apr dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale writes deleted over on alt atheism we tend to recognise two categories of atheism function format due to mathew mantis co uk i think i weak not believe gods ii strong believe not gods deleted i am a strong atheist and i must quibble with your assertion that the strong position requires faith i believe that no god s as commonly described by theists exist this belief is merely an opinion formed on the basis of observation including a certain amount of introspection i fully accept that i could be wrong and will be swayed by suitably convincing evidence thus while i believe that no gods exist this does not imply faith on my part that it is so let me first say that to believe that no gods exist is in fact different than not believing in a god or gods i will argue that your latter statement i believe that no gods exist does rest upon faith that is if you are making a positive statement that no gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying i don t know and therefore don t believe in them and don t not believe in then weak atheism once again to not believe in god is different than saying i believe that god does not exist i still maintain the position even after reading the faqs that strong atheism requires faith but first let me say the following we might have a language problem here in regards to faith and existence i as a christian maintain that god does not exist to exist means to have being in space and time god does not have being god is being kierkegaard once said that god does not exist he is eternal with this said i feel it s rather pointless to debate the so called existence of god and that is not what i m doing here i believe that god is the source and ground of being when you say that god does not exist i also accept this statement but we obviously mean two different things by it however in what follows i will use the phrase the existence of god in it s usual sense and this is the sense that i think you are using it i would like a clarification upon what you mean by the existence of god we also might differ upon what it means to have faith here is what webster says faith a allegiance to duty or a person loyalty b fidelity to one s promises sincerity of intentions a belief and trust in and loyalty to god belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b firm belief in something for which there is no proof complete trust something that is believed esp with strong conviction esp a system of religious beliefs syn see belief one can never prove that god does or does not exist when you say that you believe god does not exist and that this is an opinion based upon observation i will have to ask what observtions are you refering to there are no observations pro or con that are valid here in establishing a positive belief all observations can only point you in a direction a direction that we might even be predisposed to by predisposed i mean for example people whoes partents believe in god also tend to to actually draw a conclusion about the existence or non existence of god requires a leap and you have made this leap when you actively say i believe that god does does not exist personally i think that both statements are misguided arguing over the existence of god is precisely the wrong way to find him and yes i use him because a personal god is the only viable concept imo if a person wants to use she go ahead of course god is neither he nor she but we have no choice but to anthropomorphise if you want me to explain myself further i ll be glad to and please if someone does not agree with me even if they violently disagree it s in no ones advantage to start name calling if a person thinks i ve misunderstood something in the faqs or if they they think i have not read them well enough just point out to me the error of my ways and i correct the situation i m interested in a polite and well thought out discussion cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick ac uk department of computer science tel university of warwick fax coventry cv al u k bob singleton bobs thnext mit edu
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else there are definitely quite a few horrible deaths as the result of both atheists and theists i m sure bobby can list quite a few for the atheist side but fails to recognize that the theists are equally proficient at genocide perhaps since i m a bit weak on history somone here would like to give a list of wars caused led by theists i can think of a few hitler claimed to be a christian for example but a more complete list would probably be more effective in showing bobby just how absurd his statement is peace on a side note i notice you always sign your posts peace perhaps you should take your own advice and leave the atheists in peace with their beliefs bobby mozumder nanci if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others
alt.atheism	re dear mr theist west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes means to me the full quote michael crichton jurrasic park was something like the earth has existed quite contently for billions of years we have been here but for the blink of an eye and if we were gone tomorrow the earth would not miss us i remember this quote to keep myself humble when thinking that we have progressed so far or that we are masters of this planet cool quote the earth doesn t need saving it s existed quite happily with out us we are the ones who need saving better watch it the theists will jump on you for that brian west this is not a sig file to the earth we have been this is not a sig file here but for the blink of an ok so it s a sig file eye if we were gone tomorrow posted by west wam umd edu we would not be missed who doesn t care who knows it jurassic park diclaimer i said this i meant this nobody made me do it nanci if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others
alt.atheism	re political atheists my turn to jump in in article pi h innq gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes reference line trimmed livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes there is a good deal more confusion here you started off with the assertion that there was some objective morality and as you admit here you finished up with a recursive definition murder is objectively immoral but eactly what is murder and what is not itself requires an appeal to morality i think you mean circular not recursive but that is semantics recursiveness has no problems it is just horribly inefficient just ask any assembly programmer yes now you have switch targets a little but only a little now you are asking what is the goal what do you mean by goal are you suggesting that there is some objective goal out there somewhere and we form our morals to achieve it well for example the goal of natural morality is the survival and propogation of the species another example of a moral system is presented within the declaration of independence which states that we should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness you see to have a moral system we must define the purpose of the system that is we shall be moral unto what end the oft quoted line that says people should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness as inalienable rights is a complete lie and deception as the very authors of that line were in the process of proving liberty is never free it is always purchased at some cost almost always at the cost to another whos liberty is more inalienable similarly for right of life when one person must die if he is to save another or even a group of others whos life is more inalienable that leads into the classic question of the value of the death penalty especially for serial killers whos life and liberty is more valuable the serial killer or the victim according to that beautiful line those two rights should be completely inviolate that is noone should be able to remove them this includes government admittedly the serial killer has restricted some people s life and or liberty but is not his own life liberty inviolate also according to the declaration of independence it is murder is certainly a violation of the golden rule and i thought i had defined murder as an intentional killing of a non murderer against his will oooh i like that it means that killing an infant is not murder because it cannot be against its will reason an infant has no will as such similarly for people who are brain dead easier to see in a coma etc also under current law accidental killing is still murder how will you include that and you responded to this by asking whether or not the execution of an innocent person under our system of capital punishment was a murder or not i fail to see what this has to do with anything i never claimed that our system of morality was an objective one i thought that was your very first claim that there was some kind of objective morality and that an example of that was that murder is wrong if you don t want to claim that any more that s fine the only real golden rule in life is he who has the gold makes the rules i e might makes right that is survival now what is wrong with that well murder violates the golen rule which is certainly a pillar of most every moral system however i am not assuming that our current system and the manner of its implementation are objectively moral i think that it is a very good approximation but we can t be perfect if you mean the golden rule as i stated yes almost every system as implemented has used that in reality sorry i don t deal as much in fiction as i do in reality and by the way you don t seem to understand the difference between arbitrary and objective if keith schneider defines murder to be this that and the other that s arbitrary jon livesey may still say well according to my personal system of morality all killing of humans against their will is murder and wrong and what the legal definition of murder may be in the usa kuweit saudi arabia or the prc may be matters not a whit to me welcome to ozland what is not arbitrary if you can find some part of society some societal rules morals etc that are not arbitrary please tell me i don t think there are any well objective would assume a system based on clear and fundamental concepts while arbitary implies no clear line of reasoning keith sounds like euphemisms to me the difference seems to be that objective is some reasoning that i like while arbitrary is some reasoning that i don t like or don t understand m
alt.atheism	re radical agnostic not the one and only jcopelan nyx cs du edu wrote in article dl m bgsu edu dl andy bgsu edu pixie writes first post i ve seen from the ol bug zoo bgsu there is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt that a god does not exist but if anyone has one by all means tell me what it is therefore lacking this ability of absolute proof being an atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself and this i cannot accept i accept nothing on blind faith invisible pink flying unicorns need i say more there is also the question of what is meant by atheist a familiar example of the importance of the meaning of the word is as follows the two statements following are consistent i do not believe that you are wearing lilac socks i do not believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks the two statements following are not consistent i do believe that you are wearing lilac socks i do believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks statements and require no faith they make no presumptions about the nature of reality statements and require belief many atheists myself included take the following position i do not believe that there is a god i do not believe that there is not a god that is i harbor no beliefs at all there is no good evidence for god existing or not some folks call this agnosticism it does not suffer from blind faith at all i think of it as don t worry be happy
alt.atheism	so what is maddi as i was created in the image of gaea therefore i must be the pinnacle of creation she which creates she which births she which continues or to cut all the religious crap i m a woman thanks and it s sexism that started me on the road to atheism maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don t try this at home remember i post professionally
alt.atheism	re the wrong and the right in article e trmetu bitnet e trmetu bitnet writes hi i m a turkish guy who had tried atheism satenism and buddism at some instant s of hislife finally i decided on islambecause of many facts which i intend to write here from my point of view you atheists are people who has dropped to a deep dark well and thinking the only reality is the dusty walls of the well but if you had looked a little bit upward you would see the blue skies you dsee t he truth but you close your eyes allah is the only god and mohammed is his mess ager now let s generate some entropy in means of theology and thermodynamics w hat s your point of view to the problem of the first kiss that is the first spark which was generated for the formation of the universe has it formed by i tself you are bothering yourselves with the big bang but where is the first spa rk please think a bit think and return to the only reality of the universe isla m uh oh this looks a bit too much like bobby s atheism is false stuff are we really going to have to go through this again maybe the universe is cyclical brendan dunn
alt.atheism	re political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes and in the us even that argument doesn t stand it costs far more to execute a criminal in this country than it does to feed clothe and shelter them for the remainder of their natural life some people believe this is a fault of our judicial system i find it to be one of it s greatest virtues i assume that you are talking about the appeals processes etc well it should be noted that people who are imprisoned for life will also tend to appeal though not quite as much in the final hours anyway economics is not a very good reason to either favor or oppose the punishment keith
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution in article apr skyblu ccit arizona edu lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu james j lippard writes in article mar juliet caltech edu lmh juliet caltech edu henling lawrence m writes atheism greek a not theos god belief that there is no god agnosticism greek a not gnostein know belief that it is not possible to determine if there is a god no agnosticism as you have here defined it is a positive belief a belief that it is not possible to determine the existence of any gods that s a belief i m inclined to reject you have also defined atheism here as a positive belief that there is no god a fairly large number of atheists on alt atheism reject this definition instead holding that atheism is simply the absence of belief in a god michael martin in atheism a philosophical justification distinguishes strong atheism my mistake i will have to get a newer dictionary and read the follow up line larry henling lmh shakes caltech edu
alt.atheism	re political atheists reference line trimmed ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott d sauyet writes first i ll make the assumption that you agree that a murderer is one who has commited murder well i d say that a murderer is one who intentionally committed a murder for instance if you put a bullet into a gun that was thought to contain blanks and someone was killed with such a gun the person who actually performed the action isn t the murderer but i guess this is actually made clear in the below definition i d be interested to see a more reasonable definition what do you mean by reasonable otherwise your inductive definition doesn t bottom out your definition in essence is that murder is the intentional killing of someone who has not commited murder against his will expanding the second occurence of murder in the above we see that yes it is bad to include the word being defined in the definition but even though the series is recursively infinite i think the meaning can still be deduced i assume you can see the problem here to do a correct inductive definition you must define something in terms of a simpler case and you must have one or several bottoming out cases for instance we can define the factorial function the function which assigns to a positive integer the product of the positive integers less than or equal to it on the positive integers inductively as follows math lesson deleted okay let s look at this situation suppose there is a longstanding feud between two families which claim that the other committed some travesty in the distant past each time a member of the one family kills a member of the other the other family thinks that it is justified in killing a that member of the first family now let s suppose that this sequence has occurred an infinite number of times or if you don t like dealing with infinities suppose that one member of the family goes back into time and essentially begins the whole thing that is there is a never ending loop of slayings based on some non existent travesty how do you resolve this well they are all murders now i suppose that this isn t totally applicable to your problem but it still is possible to reduce an uninduced system and in any case the nested murderer in the definition of murder cannot be infintely recursive given the finite existence of humanity and a murder cannot be committed without a killing involved so the first person to intentionally cause someone to get killed is necessarily a murderer is this enough of an induction to solve the apparently unreducable definition see in a totally objective system where all the information is available such a nested definition isn t really a problem keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article pigidinnsot gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis co uk writes as for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist not so if you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you blame the tiger a human has greater control over his her actions than a predominately instictive tiger a proper analogy would be if you are thrown into a cage with a person and get mauled do you blame that person yes providing that that person was in a responsible frame of mind eg not clinicaly insane on pcb s etc one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left in the world
alt.atheism	re idle questions for fellow atheists in article apr mac cc macalstr edu acooper mac cc macalstr edu writes i wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of the world if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group of the population probably we would have much the same problems with only a slight shift in emphasis weekends might not be so inviolate more common to work days a week in a business and instead of american atheists we would have similar religious organizations a persons religious belief seems more as a crutch and justification for actions than a guide to determine actions of course people would have to come up with more fascinating rationalizations for their actions but that could be fun to watch it seems to me that for most people religion in america doesn t matter that much you have extreemists on both ends but a large majority don t make too much of an issue about it as long as you don t now admittedly i have never had to suffer the bible belt but i am just north of it and see the fringes and the reasonable people in most things tend to be reasonable in religion as well also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking the typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the same inherent motivation so one is not intrinsically different from the other qualitatively but then again a measuring stick must be drawn somewhere and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery ie how it expresses its own selfishness i don t bother according a higher value to my thinking or just about anybodys thinking i don t want to fall in that trap because if you do start that then you are then to decide which is better says whom why is there a best and also what to do about those who have inferior modes of thinking idic infinite diversity in infinite combinations i ll argue it over a soda but not over much more just my what inflation has done m
alt.atheism	re the problem of satan used to be islamic authority over women in article apr news unomaha edu trajan cwis unomaha edu stephen mcintyre writes of course bobby then states that satan has no free will that he does as god wants him to this brings up a host of paradoxes is god therefore evil do i have free will or is god directing me also if god is evil which part of his infinite self is good and which is evil etc i would like for once a solid answer not a run about i hope i gave you a fairly solid answer to this one i simply don t agree with the embodied version of a satan who is a separate creation or a force i wrote the belief to which i ascribe is that evil is not a creation rather it is the absence of good this fits with all the logic about things having dual use e g a knife can be used to sculpt and it can be used to kill like entropy evil is seen in this view as neither force nor entity satan is therefore metaphorical in fact there are several verses of the holy qur an which appear to support this view and several traditions as well for example there is a tradition that food should never be left open on a shelf or table overnight lest satan enter it it appears that this is a reference to as yet undiscovered germs thus the evil effect of spoiled food is described as satan but there are many examples of satan personified which am i to believe and there are quite physical descriptions of heaven and hell in the holy qur an the bible etc there have been times in the spiritual and intellectual evolution of the modern human when these physical descriptions of heaven hell and satan were taken quite literally and that worked for the time as i mentioned in the tradition cited above for example it was sufficient in the absence of a theory about germs and disease spread by worms to simply describe the evil which was passed to a consumer of spoiled food as satanic which begs the question if satan in this case is metaphorical how can you be certain allah is not the same way the bottom line here however is that describing a spiritual plane in human language is something like describing color to a person who has been blind from birth you may want to read the book flatland if you haven t already or the dragon s egg the first is intended as a light hearted description of a mathematical con cept some deleted for space saving when language fails because it cannot be used to adequately describe another dimension which cannot be experienced by the speakers then such conventions as metaphor allegory and the like come to be necessary the unseen is described in terms which have reference and meaning for the reader listener but like all models a compro mise must be made when speaking metaphorically clarity and directness of meaning equivalence of perception and the like are all crippled but what else can you do this is why i asked the above how would you then know god exists as a spirit or being rather than just being metaphorical i mean it s okay to say well satan is just metaphorical but then you have to justify this belief and justify that god is not some metaphor for something else i say this because there are many many instances of satan described as a being such as the tormentor in the old testament book of job or the temptor in the new testament gospels in the same way god too is described as a being or spirit how am i to know one is metaphorical and not the other further belief in god isn t a bar to evil let s consider the case of satanists even if satan were metaphorical the satanist would have to believe in god to justify this belief again we have a case where someone does believe in god but by religious standards they are evil if bobby does see this let him address this question also deleted some more on metaphor obviously more philosophizing on this issue is possible but i m not sure that the readers of this newsgroup would want to delve into religious interpretation further however if anyone wishes to discuss this i m certainly willing either off line e mail or on line posting stephen atheist libertarian pro individuality pro responsibility jr and all that jazz
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts in article pmjo inn l lynx unm edu bevans carina unm edu mathemagician writes just what do gay people do that straight people don t absolutely nothing i m a very straight as an arrow year old male that is involved in the bsa i don t care what gay people do among each other as long as they don t make passes at me or anything at my summer camp where i work my boss is gay not in a pansy way of gay i know a few but just one of the guys he doesn t push anything on me and we give him the same respect back due to his position if anything the bsa has taught me i don t know tolerance or something before i met this guy i thought all gays were faries so the bsa has taught me to be an antibigot basically it comes down to this what you do among yourself is your own business no one else has the right to tell you otherwise unless it violates someone else s civil rights
alt.atheism	re gospel dating date mon apr gmt from stilgar west next cville wam umd edu in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the illiad is the undisputed word of god tm prove me wrong i dispute it ergo by counter example you are proven wrong i dispute your counter example ergo by counter counter example you are wrong and i am right so nanny nanny boo boo tbbbbbbbtttttthhhhh p this looks like a serious case of temporary islam
alt.atheism	a word of advice in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes i ve said enough times that there is no alternative that should think you might have caught on by now and there is no alternative but the point is rationality isn t an alternative either the problems of metaphysical and religious knowledge are unsolvable or i should say humans cannot solve them how does that saying go those who say it can t be done shouldn t interrupt those who are doing it jim have you washed your brain today
alt.atheism	re concerning god s morality long jbrown batman bmd trw com writes sorry but there are no supernatural forces necessary to create a pathogen you are saying since diseases are bad the bad entity must have created it so what would you say about acid rain meteors falling from the sky volcanoes earthquakes and other quote unquote acts of god i would say that they are not acts of god but natural occurrences it amazes me that you have the audacity to say that human creation was not the result of the natural process of evolution but rather an act of god and then in the same post say that these other processes volcanos et al are natural occurrences who gave you the right to choose what things are natural processes and what are direct acts of god how do you know that god doesn t cause each and every natural disaster with a specific purpose in mind it would certainly go along with the sadistic nature i ve seen in the bible even if satan had nothing to do with the original inception of disease evolution by random chance would have produced them since humanity forsook god s protection if we choose to live apart from god s law humanity collectively then it should come as no surprise that there are adverse consequences to our collective action one of these is that we are left to deal with disease and disorders which inevitably result in an entropic universe may i ask where is this collective bullcrap coming from by collective i was referring to the idea that god works with humanity on two levels individually and collectively if mankind as a whole decides to undertake a certain action the majority of mankind then god will allow the consequences of that action to affect mankind as a whole adam eve two people even tho they had the honor or so you christians claim of being the first two definitely do not represent a majority in the billions and trillions probably more of people that have come after them perhaps they were the majority then but i and you weren t around to vote and perhaps we might have voted differently about what to do with that tree but your god never asked us he just assumes that if you have two bad people then they all must be bad hmm sounds like the same kind of false generalization that i see many of the theists posting here resorting to so that s where they get it shoulda known jim b nanci if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes that s your mistake it would be better for the children if the mother raised the child one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised do a study and you will get my point but in no way do you have a claim that it would be better if the men stayed home and raised the child that is something false made up by feminists that seek a status above men you do not recognize the fact that men and women have natural differences not just physically but mentally also your logic i didn t say americans were the cause of worlds problems i said atheists becuase they have no code of ethics to follow which means that atheists can do whatever they want which they feel is right something totally based on their feelings and those feelings cloud their rational thinking yeah i didn t say that all atheists are bad but that they could be bad or good with nothing to define bad or good awright bobby s back in all of his shit for brains glory just when i thought he d turned the corner of progress his thorazine prescription runs out i d put him in my kill file but man this is good stuff i wish i had his staying power fortunately i learned not to take him too seriously long long long ago bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes peace bobby get this the hell out of your sig until you learn what it stands for and really mean it bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	omnipotence was re speculations in article p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes date fri apr from nanci ann miller nm w andrew cmu edu can god uncreate itself no for if he did he would violate his own nature which he cannot do it is god s nature to exist he is after all the i am which is a statement of his inherent existence he is existence itself existence cannot not exist then as mentioned above he must not be very omnipotent what do you mean by omnipotent here do you mean by omnipotent that god should be able to do anything everything this creates a self contradictory definition of omnipotence which is effectively useless to be descriptive omnipotence must mean being all powerful and not being able to do anything everything let me illustrate by analogy suppose the united states were the only nuclear power on earth suppose further that the us military could not effectively be countered by any nation or group of nations the us has the power to go into any country at any time for any reason to straighten things out as the leaders of the us see fit the us would be militarily omnipotent but suppose further that the us holds to a doctrine philosophy of not interfering in the internal affairs of any nation such as the current civil war in the former yugoslavian states technically in this scenario the us would have the power to unilaterally go into yugoslavia and straighten out the mess but effectively the us could not intervene without violating its own policy of non interference if the policy of non interference were held to strongly enough then there would never be a question that it would ever be violated effectively the us would be limited in what it could actually do although it had the power to do whatever it wanted the us would simply never want to interfere for such an idea would be beyond the consideration of its leaders given such an inviolate non interference policy god is effectively limited in the same sense he is all powerful but he cannot use his power in a way that would violate the essence of what he himself is i hope this helps to clear up some of the misunderstanding concerning omnipotence regards jim b
alt.atheism	re islamic marriage in article apr cadence com mas cadence com masud khan writes in article c qav wg austin ibm com karner austin ibm com f karner writes okay so you want me to name names there are obviously no official records of these pseudo marriages because they are performed for convenience what happens typically is that the woman is willing to move in with her lover without any scruples or legal contracts to speak of the man is merely utilizing a loophole by entering into a temporary religious marriage contract in order to have sex nobody complains nobody cares nobody needs to know perhaps you should alert your imam it could be that this practice is far more widespread than you may think or maybe it takes muslim men to witness the penetration to decide if the practice exists again you astound me with the level of ignorance you display muslims are not allowed to enter temporary marriages got that there is no evidence for it it an outlawed practise so get your facts straight buddy give me references for it or just tell everyone you were lying it is not a widespread as you may think fantasise in fact contrary to your fantasies it is not practised at all amongst muslims first of all i m not your buddy second read what i wrote i m not talking about what muslims are allowed to do merely what some practice they consider themselves as muslim as you so don t retort with the old and tired they must not be true muslims bullshit if i gave you the names what will you do with this information is a fatwa going to be leashed out against the perpetrators do you honestly think that someone who did it would voluntarily come forward and confess with the kind of extremism shown by your co religionaries fat chance at any rate there can be no conclusive proof by the very nature of the act perhaps people that indulge in this practice agree with you in theory but hope that allah will forgive them in the end i think it s rather arrogant of you to pretend to speak for all muslims in this regard also kind of silly are you insinuating that because the koranic law forbids it there are no criminals in muslim countries this is as far as i care to go on this subject the weakness of your arguments are for all netters to see over and out disclaimer the opinions expressed in this posting are mine solely and do not represent my employer in any way f a karner aix technical support karner austin vnet ibm com
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article pi h innq gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes reference line trimmed livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes there is a good deal more confusion here you started off with the assertion that there was some objective morality and as you admit here you finished up with a recursive definition murder is objectively immoral but eactly what is murder and what is not itself requires an appeal to morality yes now you have switch targets a little but only a little now you are asking what is the goal what do you mean by goal are you suggesting that there is some objective goal out there somewhere and we form our morals to achieve it well for example the goal of natural morality is the survival and propogation of the species i got just this far what do you mean by goal i hope you don t mean to imply that evolution has a conscious goal jon
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article pic linnrau gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes my personal objection is that i find capital punishment to be cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances it can be painless so it isn t cruel and it has occurred frequently since the dawn of time so it is hardly unusual koff you mean that as long as i put you to sleep first i can kill you without being cruel this changes everything jon
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article pieg inns gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes now along comes mr keith schneider and says here is an objective moral system and then i start to ask him about the definitions that this objective system depends on and predictably the whole thing falls apart it only falls apart if you attempt to apply it this doesn t mean that an objective system can t exist it just means that one cannot be implemented it s not the fact that it can t exist that bothers me it s the fact that you don t seem to be able to define it if i wanted to hear about indefinable things that might in principle exist as long as you don t think about them too carefully i could ask a religious person now couldn t i jon
alt.atheism	re pompous ass in article pi btinnqa gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes then why do people keep asking the same questions over and over because you rarely ever answer them nope i ve answered each question posed and most were answered multiple times he fifty dollars if i can t answer your question she what is the big bang theory he the big bang theory is a recipe for cookies she fifty dollars please he hey i didn t say the answers would make sense jon
alt.atheism	re pompous ass in article pi jkinnqe gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes how long does it the motto have to stay around before it becomes the default where s the cutoff point i don t know where the exact cutoff is but it is at least after a few years and surely after years why does the notion of default not take into account changes in population makeup specifically which changes are you talking about are you arguing that the motto is interpreted as offensive by a larger portion of the population now than years ago no do i have to i m just commenting that it makes very little sense to consider everything we inherit to be the default seen any steam trains recently jon
alt.atheism	re concerning god s morality long in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com responds to a lot of grief given to him in article apr leland stanford edu galahad leland stanford edu scott compton a k a the sagemaster but then i ask so where is this relevant to my discussion in answering john s question of why why are there genetic diseases and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require babies to develop antibodies is it god s fault the original question i say no it is not most of scotty s followup was irrelevant to the original question but this is not unusual as threads often quickly evolve away from the original topic what i could not understand is why jim spent so much time responding to what he regarded as irrelevancies may i ask where is this collective bullcrap coming from by collective i was referring to the idea that god works with humanity on two levels individually and collectively if mankind as a whole decides to undertake a certain action the majority of mankind well i guess hypothetical adam was the majority of mankind seeing how he was the only man at the time then god will allow the consequences of that action to affect mankind as a whole if you didn t understand that then i apologize for not using one and two syllable words in my discussion i understand what you mean by collective but i think it is an insane perversion of justice what sort of judge would punish the descendants for a crime committed by their ancestor if you want to be sure that i read your post and to provide a response send a copy to jim brown oz bmd trw com i can t read a a every day and some posts slip by thanks well i must admit that you probably read a a more often than i read the bible these days but you missed a couple of good followups to your post i m sending you a personal copy of my followup which i hope you will respond to publically in a a john the sageless
alt.atheism	re jews can t hide from keith cco in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes in article pj b aaa fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes er jon what ken said was there have previously been people like you in your country unfortunately most jews did not survive that sure sounds to me like ken is accusing the guy of being a nazi my previous posting deleted yes yes this is a perfectly fine rant and i agree with it completely but what does it have to do with anything the issue at hand here is whether or not ken accused the fellow from germany of being a nazi i grant that he did not explicity make this accusation but he came pretty damn close he is certainly accusing the guy of sympathizing with those who would like to exterminate the jews and that s good enough for me the poster casually trashed two thousand years of jewish history and ken replied that there had previously been people like him in germany that s right there have been there have also been people who were formally nazis but the nazi party would have gone nowhere without the active and tacit support of the ordinary man in the street who behaved as though casual anti semitism was perfectly acceptable now what exactly don t you understand about what i wrote and why don t you see what it has to do with the matter at hand jon
alt.atheism	re jews can t hide from keith cco in article apr mac cc macalstr edu acooper mac cc macalstr edu writes in article pint l fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well germany was hardly the only country to discriminate against the jews although it has the worst reputation because it did the best job of expressing a general european dislike of them this should not turn into a debate on antisemitism but you should also point out that luther s antisemitism was based on religious grounds while hitler s was on racial grounds and wagnmer s on aesthetic grounds just blanketing the whole group is poor analysis even if they all are bigots i find these to be intriguing remarks could you give us a bit more explanation here for example which religion is anti semitic and which aesthetic jon
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes in p ivt cfj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes should we british go around blowing up skyscrapers next i don t know if you are doing so but it seems you are implying that the person accused of blowing up the wtc in ny actually did it and that islamic teachings have something to do with blowing up the wtc i was replying to a person who attempted to justify the fatwa against rushdie on the grounds that his work was intentionally insulting i think that to take a single sentence from a fairly long posting and to say i don t know if you are doing so but it seems you are implying is at the very best quite disingenuous and perhaps even dishonest if anyone care to dig back and read the full posting they will see nothing of the kind i trust you don t deny that islamic teaching has something to do with the fatwa against rushdie jon
alt.atheism	re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes i don t understand the point of this petty sarcasm it is a basic principle of islam that if one is born muslim or one says i testify that there is no god but god and mohammad is a prophet of god that so long as one does not explicitly reject islam by word then one must be considered muslim by all muslims so the phenomenon you re attempting to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic islamic principles if you want to attack islam you could do better than than to argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts then mr mozumder is incorrect when he says that when committing bad acts people temporarily become atheists jon
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes if saddam believed in god he would pray five times a day communism on the other hand actually committed genocide in the name of atheism as lenin and stalin have said themselves these two were die hard atheist look a pun and believed in atheism as an integral part of communism no bobby stalin killed millions in the name of socialism atheism was a characteristic of the lenin stalin version of socialism nothing more another characteristic of lenin stalin socialism was the centralization of food distribution would you therefore say that stalin and lenin killed millions in the name of rationing bread of course not more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else in earlier posts you stated that true muslim believers were incapable of evil i suppose if you believe that you could reason that no one has ever been killed in the name of religion what a perfect world you live in bobby one of the reasons that you are atheist is that you limit god by giving god a form god does not have a face bobby is referring to a rather obscure law in the good atheist s handbook law xxvi a give that which you do not believe in a face you must excuse us bobby when we argue against theism we usually argue against the christian idea of god in the realm of christianity man was created in god s image kevin marshall sophomore computer science virginia tech blacksburg va usa marshall csugrad cs vt edu
alt.atheism	re the list of biblical contradictions joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes someone writes i found a list of biblical contradictions and cleaned it up a bit but now i d like some help with it i m curious to know what purpose people think these lists serve it s about time why do atheists spend so much time paying attention to the bible anyway face it there are better things to do with your life i used to chuckle and snort over the silliness in that book and the absurdity of people believing in it as truth etc why do we spend so little time on the mayan religion or the native americans heck the native americans have signifigantly more interesting myths also what about the egyptians i think we pay so much attention to christianity because we accept it as a religion and not a mythology which i find more accurate i try to be tolerant it gets very hard when someone places a book under my nose and tells me it s special it s not carolyn
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses on apr mst jbrown batman bmd trw com said god is eternal a b jesus is god c a therefore jesus is eternal c b this works both logically and mathematically god is of the set of things which are eternal jesus is a subset of god therefore jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal everything isn t always so logical mercedes is a car that girl is mercedes therefore that girl is a car heikki
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article k rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mantis co uk mathew writes in article apr blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes the automobile system kills non driving passengers not to mention pedestrians you need not drive or even use a car to be killed by one indeed and it kills far more than a system of public transport would i am therefore entirely in favour of banning private cars and replacing them with trains buses taxis bicycles and so on seconded i cycle to work each day and if we could just get those damned cars and their cretinous drivers off the road it would be a lot more fun jon
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article h rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mantis co uk mathew writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and we meaning people who drive accept the risks of doing so and contribute tax money to design systems to minimize those risks eh we already have systems to minimize those risks it s just that you car drivers don t want to use them they re called bicycles trains and buses poor matthew a million posters to call you car drivers and he chooses me a non car owner jon
alt.atheism	re omnipotence was re speculations in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes date fri apr from nanci ann miller nm w andrew cmu edu can god uncreate itself no for if he did he would violate his own nature which he cannot do it is god s nature to exist he is after all the i am which is a statement of his inherent existence he is existence itself existence cannot not exist then as mentioned above he must not be very omnipotent what do you mean by omnipotent here do you mean by omnipotent that god should be able to do anything everything this creates a self contradictory definition of omnipotence which is effectively useless to be descriptive omnipotence must mean being all powerful and not being able to do anything everything let me illustrate by analogy suppose the united states were the only nuclear power on earth suppose further that the us military could not effectively be countered by any nation or group of nations the us has the power to go into any country at any time for any reason to straighten things out as the leaders of the us see fit the us would be militarily omnipotent did you check with the afghans before posting this they might disagree jon
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes nanci ann miller writes my favorite reply to the you are being too literal minded complaint is that if the bible is really inspired by god and if it is really that important to him then he would make damn certain all the translators and scribes and people interpreting and copying it were getting it right literally if not then why should i put any merit at all in something that has been corrupted over and over and over by man even if it was originally inspired by god the corrupted over and over theory is pretty weak comparison of the current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text has in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia this shouldn t be all that suprising people who believe in a text in this manner are likely to makes some pains to make good copies do you honestly hold to that tripe charley for a start there are enough current versions of the bible to make comparisons to show that what you write above is utter garbage witness jw mormon catholic anglican and greek orthodox bibles but to really convince you i d have to take you to a good old library in our local library we had a king james which i compared to a brand new hot of god s tongue good news bible genesis was almost unrecognisable many of the discrepencies between the four gospels had been edited from the good news bible in fact the god of good news was a much more congenial fellow i must say if you like i ll get the king james out again and actually give you some quotes at least the headings haven t changed much jeff
alt.atheism	re ancient islamic rituals cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards depression you can t just pick your two favorite trends notice a correlation in them and make a sweeping statement of generality i mean you can and people have but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis at best it s a gross oversimplification of the push pull factors people experience i agree i reckon it s television and the increase in fundamentalism you think its the increase in pre marital sex others thinks its because psychologists have taken over the criminal justice system and let violent criminals con them into letting them out into the streets others think it s the increase in designer drugs others think it s a communist plot basically the social interactions of all the changing factors in our society are far too complicated for us to control we just have to hold on to the panic handles and hope that we are heading for a soft landing but one things for sure depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is not due solely to sex out of marriage jeff fred rice a muslim giving his point of view darice yoyo cc monash edu au cfaehl vesta unm edu
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution in article apr njitgw njit edu dmu hertz njit edu david utidjian eng sci writes in article mar juliet caltech edu lmh juliet caltech edu henling lawrence m writes for a complete description of what is and is not atheism or agnosticism see the faq for alt atheism in alt answers i think utidjian remarque berkeley edu i apologize for posting this i thought it was only going to talk origins i also took my definitions from a websters nonetheless the apparent past arguments over these words imply that like bimonthly and biweekly they have no commonly accepted definitions and should be used with care larry henling lmh shakes caltech edu
alt.atheism	re jews can t hide from keith cco in article pj b aaa fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes in article pint l fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes deletions er jon what ken said was there have previously been people like you in your country unfortunately most jews did not survive that sure sounds to me like ken is accusing the guy of being a nazi hitler and the nazis didn t spring fully formed from the forehead of athena they didn t invent anti semitism they built on a foundation of anti semitism that was already present in germany this foundation of anti semitism was laid down not by the nazis but by the people i listed and also by hundreds of years of unthinking knee jerk bigotry on the part of perfectly ordinary people and of course their pastors and priests what we have to worry about today is not whether some hollywood hitler in a black uniform is going to come striding onto the german stage in one unprepared step but whether those same bedrock foundations of anti semitism are being laid down little by little in germany as we speak and if so they will be laid down not by hitlers and himmlers who will come later but by people like the poster in question the people who think that casual anti semitism is acceptable or even fun deletions i did now may i suggest with the greatest possible respect that you go read some history jon so you consider the german poster s remark anti semitic perhaps you imply that anyone in germany who doesn t agree with israely policy in a nazi pray tell how does it even qualify as casual anti semitism if the term doesn t apply why then bring it up your own bigotry is shining through disclaimer the opinions expressed in this posting are mine solely and do not represent my employer in any way f a karner aix technical support karner austin vnet ibm com
alt.atheism	re omnipotence was re speculations in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes god is effectively limited in the same sense he is all powerful but he cannot use his power in a way that would violate the essence of what he himself is cannot try will not one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left in the world
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses in article suopanki apr stekt oulu fi suopanki stekt oulu fi heikki t suopanki writes god is eternal a b jesus is god c a therefore jesus is eternal c b this works both logically and mathematically god is of the set of things which are eternal jesus is a subset of god therefore jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal everything isn t always so logical mercedes is a car that girl is mercedes therefore that girl is a car this is not strickly correct only by incorrect application of the rules of language does it seem to work the mercedes in the first premis and the one in the second are not the same mercedes in your case a b c d a and d are not equal one is a name of a person the other the name of a object you can not simply extract a word without taking the context into account of course your case doesn t imply that a d in his case a does equal d try again one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left in the world
alt.atheism	islam vs the jehovah s witnesses in article apr princeton edu qpliu princeton edu writes in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes but god created lucifer with a perfect nature and gave him along with the other angels free moral will now god could have prevented lucifer s fall by taking away his ability to choose between moral alternatives worship god or worship himself so lucifer s moral choices are determined by his will what determines what his will is qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated bobby a few posts ago you said that lucifer had no free will from the above it seems the jw believes the contrary are you talking about the same lucifer if so can you suggest an experiment to determine which of you is wrong or do you claim that you are both right norman
alt.atheism	re had to share this in article apr acme gen nz kilroy acme gen nz earthbound misfit i writes bena dec cs monash edu au ben aveling writes warning if you are anything like a devout christian this post is really going to offend and or upset you numerous ctrl ls deleted hehehe i assume everyone here is familiar with the christian fish symbol the one on the back of all those volvos the one that looks something like or perhaps more like well i found out this morning where it comes from it s been stolen from the pagans like so much else last last chance to be blisfully ignorant hmm how can i put it well it comes from this sigh i hate drawing with ascii chars still i think you can work it out from there if you haven t go read skinny legs and all by tom robbins if he s even accurate then most of the modern religions have been appropriated it s also a great book followups to alt atheism whose readers are probably slightly more authorative on this k craig harding kilroy acme gen nz acme bbs jub er lbh pnyyvat n obmb craig i thought it was derived from a greek acronym my greek isn t up to much but it goes something like this jesus christ god iesus christos theos ichthos which is the greek for fish as in eg ichthysaurus apologies for my dreadful greek perhaps someone will correct it by the way what does your sig mean norman
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes one of the reasons that you are atheist is that you limit god by giving god a form god does not have a face wait a minute i thought you said that allah i presume allah god was unknowable and yet here you are claiming to know a very concrete fact about him you say that god does not have a face doesn t the bible say that god has hindparts how do you suggest i decide which if any of you is right or are you both right god has hindparts but no face or does your use of quotation marks god does not have a face allow you to interpret this to mean whatever you like peace bobby mozumder norman
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article ba da i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes but could you give a definition of free will especially in the presence of an omniscient being will is self determination in other words god created conscious beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently of god all will therefore is free will so these hypothetical conscious beings can ignore any influences of their circumstances their genetics their environment their experiences which are not all self determined of course the idea of hell makes the idea of free will dubious on the other hand the idea of hell is not a very powerful idea a parable for you there was once our main character who blah blah blah one day a thug pointed a mean looking gun at omc and said do what i say or i m blasting you to hell omc thought if i believe this thug and follow the instructions that will be given i ll avoid getting blasted to hell on the other hand if i believe this thug and do not follow the instructions that will be given i ll get blasted to hell hmm the more attractive choice is obvious i ll follow the instructions now omc found the choice obvious because everything omc had learned about getting blasted to hell made it appear very undesirable but then omc noticed that the thug s gun wasn t a real gun the thug s threats were make believe so omc ignored the thug and resumed blah blah blah qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated
alt.atheism	re gospel dating in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the illiad is the undisputed word of god tm prove me wrong i dispute it ergo by counter example you are proven wrong i dispute your counter example ergo by counter counter example you are wrong and i am right so nanny nanny boo boo tbbbbbbbtttttthhhhh no the premis stated that it was undisputed fine the illiad is the word of god tm disputed or not it is dispute that it won t matter prove me wrong brian west this is not a sig file to the earth we have been this is not a sig file here but for the blink of an ok so it s a sig file eye if we were gone tomorrow posted by west wam umd edu we would not be missed who doesn t care who knows it jurassic park diclaimer i said this i meant this nobody made me do it
alt.atheism	re gospel dating in article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes fine the illiad is the word of god tm disputed or not it is dispute that it won t matter prove me wrong the illiad contains more than one word ergo it can not be the word of god but if you will humbly agree that it is the words of god i will conceed d one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left in the world
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution in article pik i l fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article c u l bv darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes why do you spend so much time posting here if your atheism is so incidental if the question of god is trivial fess up it matters to you a great deal ask yourself two questions how important is mithras in your life today how important would mithras become if there was a well funded group of fanatics trying to get the schools system to teach your children that mithras was the one true god jon right on jon who cares who or whose as long as it works for the individual but don t try to impose those beliefs on us or our children i would add the well funded group tries also to purge science to deny children access to great wonders and skills and how about the kids born to creationists what a burden with which to begin adult life it must be a cruel awakening for those who finally see the light provided it is possible to escape from the depths of this type of ignorance
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses jbrown batman bmd trw com writes my syllogism is of the form a is b c is a therefore c is b this is a logically valid construction your syllogism however is of the form a is b c is b therefore c is a therefore yours is a logically invalid construction and your comments don t apply i appeal to mathew mantis here who wrote the excellent post now part of the faq on logical argument jim b i am not mathew mantis but any successful first year logic student will see that you are logically correct the other poster is logically incorrect i know is nothing more than i believe with pretentions
alt.atheism	re concerning god s morality was americans and evolution in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes why do babies get diseases etc what god did create was life according to a protein code which is mutable and can evolve without delving into a deep discussion of creationism vs evolutionism here s the main problem the scenario you outline is reasonably consistent but all the evidence that i am familiar with not only does not support it but indicates something far different the earth by latest estimates is about billion years old and has had life for about billion of those years humans have only been around for at most about years but the fossil evidence inidcates that life has been changing and evolving and in fact disease ridden long before there were people yes there are fossils that show signs of disease mostly bone disorders of course but there are some heck not just fossil evidence but what we ve been able to glean from genetic study shows that disease has been around for a long long time if human sin was what brought about disease at least indirectly though necessarily then how could it exist before humans god created the original genetic code perfect and without flaw and without getting sidetracked into the theological ramifications of the original sin the main effect of the so called original sin for this discussion was to remove humanity from god s protection since by their choice a e cut themselves off from intimate fellowship with god in addition their sin caused them to come under the dominion of satan who then assumed dominion over the earth deletions since humanity was no longer under god s protection but under satan s dominion it was no great feat for satan to genetically engineer diseases both bacterial viral and genetic although the forces of natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species the degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this uh i know of many evolutionary biologists who know more about biology than you claim to who will strongly disagree with this there is no evidence that the human genetic code or any other started off in perfect condition it seems to adapt to its envionment in a collective sense i m really curious as to what you mean by the degeneration of the genetic code human dna being more complex tends to accumulate errors adversely affecting our well being and ability to fight off disease while the simpler dna of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in causing infection and disease it is a bad combination umm nah we seem to do a pretty good job of adapting to viruses and bacteria and they to us only a very small percentage of microlife is harmful to humans and that small percentage seems to be reasonalby constant in size but the ranks keep changing for example bubonic plague used to be a really nasty disease i m sure you ll agree but it still pops up from time to time even today and doesn t do as much damage part of that is because of better sanitation but even when people get the disease the symptoms tend to be less severe than in the past this seems to be partly because people who were very susceptible died off long ago and because the really nasty variants overgrazed forgive the poor terminology i m an engineer not a doctor and died off for lack of nearby hosts i could be wrong on this but from what i gather acne is only a few hundred years old and used to be nastier though no killer it seems to be getting less nasty w age hence we have newborns that suffer from genetic viral and bacterial diseases disorders now wait a minute i have a question humans were created perfect right and you admit that we have an inbuilt abiliy to fight off disease it seems unlikely that satan who s making the diseases would also gift humans with the means to fight them off simpler to make the diseases less lethal if he wants survivors as far as i can see our immune systems imperfect though they may presently be must have been built into us by god i want to be clear on this are you saying that god was planning ahead for the time when satan would be in charge by building an immune system that was not at the time of design necessary that is god made our immune systems ahead of time knowing that adam and eve would sin and their descendents would need to fight off diseases this may be more of a mystical supernatural explanation than you are prepared to accept but god is not responsible for disease even if satan had nothing to do with the original inception of disease evolution by random chance would have produced them since humanity forsook god s protection here s another puzzle what exactly do you mean by perfect in the phrase created perfect and without flaw to my mind a perfect system would be incapable of degrading over time a perfect system that will without constant intervention become imperfect is not a perfect system at least imho or is it that god did something like writing a masterpiece novel on a bunch of gum wrappers held together with elmer s glue that is the original genetic instructions were perfect but were written in inferior materials that had to be carefully tended or would fall apart if so why could god not have used better materials was god incapable of creating a system that could maintain itself of did it just choose not to deletions in summary newborns are innocent but god does not cause their suffering my main point as i said was that there really isn t any evidence for the explanation you give at least that i m aware of but i couldn t help making a few nitpicks here and there sincerely ray ingles the above opinions are probably not those of the university of ingles engin umich edu michigan yet
alt.atheism	re concerning god s morality long in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article apr leland stanford edu galahad leland stanford edu scott compton writes deletions now back to your post you have done a fine job at using your seventh grade life science course to explain why bad diseases are caused by satan and good things are a result of god but i want to let you in on a little secret we can create an amino acid sequence in lab and guess what the sequence curls into a helix wow that s right it can happen without a supernatural force wow all it takes is a few advanced science degrees and millions of dollars of state of the art equipment and i thought it took intelligence to create the building blocks of life foolish me people with advanced science degrees use state of the art equipment and spend millions of dollars to simulate tornadoes but tornadoes do not require intelligence to exist not only that the equipment needed is not really state of the art to study the products yes but not to generate them if you want to be sure that i read your post and to provide a response send a copy to jim brown oz bmd trw com i can t read a a every day and some posts slip by thanks oh i will sincerely ray ingles the above opinions are probably not those of the university of ingles engin umich edu michigan yet
alt.atheism	re an anecdote about islam date apr gmt from jon livesey livesey solntze wpd sgi com in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes i don t understand the point of this petty sarcasm it is a basic principle of islam that if one is born muslim or one says i testify that there is no god but god and mohammad is a prophet of god that so long as one does not explicitly reject islam by word then one must be considered muslim by all muslims so the phenomenon you re attempting to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic islamic principles if you want to attack islam you could do better than than to argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts then mr mozumder is incorrect when he says that when committing bad acts people temporarily become atheists jon of course b m is not incorrect he is defending islam when defending islam against infidels you can say anything and no one will dare criticize you but when an atheist uses the same argument he is using petty sarcasm so b m can have his temporary atheists whenever he needs them and all the temporary atheists can later say that they were always good muslims because they never explicitly rejected islam temporary atheism temporary islam temporary marriage none of it sticks a teflon religion how convenient and so easy to clean up after but then what would you expect from a bunch of people who can t even agree on the phases of the moon
alt.atheism	re concerning god s morality long this kind of argument cries for a comment jbrown batman bmd trw com wrote in article apr leland stanford edu galahad leland stanford edu scott compton writes jim you originally wrote god did not create disease nor is he responsible for the maladies of newborns what god did create was life according to a protein code which is mutable and can evolve without delving into a deep discussion of creationism vs evolutionism god created the original genetic code perfect and without flaw do you have any evidence for this if the code was once perfect and has degraded ever since we should have some evidence in favour of this statement shouldn t we perhaps the biggest imperfection of the code is that it is full of non coding regions introns which are so called because they intervene with the coding regions exons an impressive amount of evidence suggests that introns are of very ancient origin it is likely that early exons represented early protein domains is the number of introns decreasing or increasing it appears that intron loss can occur and species with common ancestry usually have quite similar exon intron structure in their genes on the other hand the possibility that introns have been inserted later presents several logical difficulties introns are removed by a splicing mechanism this would have to be present but unused if introns are inserted moreover intron insertion would have required precise targeting random insertion would not be tolerated since sequences for intron removal self splicing of mrna are conserved besides transposition of a sequence usually leaves a trace long terminal repeats and target site duplications and these are not found in or near intron sequences i seriously recommend reading textbooks on molecular biology and genetics before posting theological arguments like this try watson s molecular biology of the gene or darnell lodish baltimore s molecular biology of the cell for starters remember the question was posed in a theological context why does god cause disease in newborns and my answer is likewise from a theological perspective my own it is no less valid than a purely scientific perspective just different scientific perspective is supported by the evidence whereas theological perspectives often fail to fulfil this criterion i think you misread my meaning i said god made the genetic code perfect but that doesn t mean it s perfect now it has certainly evolved since for the worse would you please cite a few references that support your assertion your assertion is less valid than the scientific perspective unless you support it by some evidence in fact it has been claimed that parasites and diseases are perhaps more important than we ve thought for instance sex might have evolved as defence against parasites this view is supported by computer simulations of evolution eg tierra perhaps i thought it was higher energy rays like x rays gamma rays and cosmic rays that caused most of the damage in fact it is thermal energy that does most of the damage although it is usually mild and easily fixed by enzymatic action actually neither of us knows what the atmosphere was like at the time when god created life according to my recollection most biologists do not claim that life began billion years ago after all that would only be a half billion years or so after the earth was created it would still be too primitive to support life i seem to remember a figure more like to billion years ago for the origination of life on earth anyone with a better estimate i d replace created with formed since there is no need to invoke any creator if the earth can be formed without one most recent estimates of the age of the earth range between billion years and earliest signs of life not true fossils but organic stromatolite like layers date back to billion years this would leave more than billion years for the first cells to evolve i m sorry i can t give any references this is based on the course on evolutionary biochemistry i attended here dominion it was no great feat for satan to genetically engineer diseases both bacterial viral and genetic although the forces of natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species the degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this again do you want this be true or do you have any evidence for this supposed degeneration i can understand scott s reaction excuse me but this is so far fetched that i know you must be jesting do you know what pathogens are do you know what point mutations are do you know that everything can come about spontaneously in response to your last statement no and neither do you you may very well believe that and accept it as fact but you cannot know that i hope you don t forget this we have evidence that suggests everything can come about spontaneously do you have evidence against this conclusion in science one does not have to believe in anything it is a healthy sign to doubt and disbelieve but the right path to walk is to take a look at the evidence if you do so and not to present one s own conclusions prior to this theology does not use this method therefore i seriously doubt it could ever come to right conclusions human dna being more complex tends to accumulate errors adversely affecting our well being and ability to fight off disease while the simpler dna of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in causing infection and disease it is a bad combination hence we have newborns that suffer from genetic viral and bacterial diseases disorders you are supposing a purpose not a valid move bacteria and viruses do not exist to cause disease they are just another manifests of a general principle of evolution only replication saves replicators from degradiation we are just an efficient method for our dna to survive and replicate the less efficient methods didn t make it to the present and for the last time please present some evidence for your claim that human dna is degrading through evolutionary processes some people have claimed that the opposite is true we have suppressed our selection and thus are bound to degrade i haven t seen much evidence for either claim but then i ask so where is this relevant to my discussion in answering john s question of why why are there genetic diseases and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require babies to develop antibodies is it god s fault the original question i say no it is not of course nothing evil is god s fault but your explanation does not work it fails miserably you may be right but the fact is that you don t know that satan is not responsible and neither do i suppose that a powerful evil being like satan exists would it be inconceivable that he might be responsible for many of the ills that affect mankind i don t think so he could have done a much better job pun intended the problem is it seems no satan is necessary to explain any diseases they are just as inevitable as any product of evolution did i say that where seems to me like another bad inference actually what you ve done is to oversimplify what i said to the point that your summary of my words takes on a new context i never said that people are meant presumably by god to be punished by getting diseases why i did say is that free moral choices have attendent consequences if mankind chooses to reject god as people have done since the beginning then they should not expect god to protect them from adverse events in an entropic universe i am not expecting this if god exists i expect him to leave us alone i would also like to hear why do you believe your choices are indeed free this is an interesting philosophical question and the answer is not as clear cut as it seems to be what consequences would you expect from rejecting allah oh i admit it s not perfect yet but i m working on it a good library or a bookstore is a good starting point what does this have to do with the price of tea in china or the question to which i provided an answer biology and genetics are fine subjects and important scientific endeavors but they explain how god created and set up life processes they don t explain the why behind creation life or its subsequent evolution why is there a why behind and your proposition was something that is not supported by the evidence this is why we recommend these books is there any need to invoke any why behind a prime mover evidence for this if the whole universe can come into existence without any intervention as recent cosmological theories hawking et al suggest why do people still insist on this thanks scotty for your fine and sagely advice but i am not highly motivated to learn all the nitty gritty details of biology and genetics although i m sure i d find it a fascinating subject for i realize that the details do not change the big picture that god created life in the beginning with the ability to change and adapt to its environment i m sorry but they do there is no evidence for your big picture and no need to create anything that is capable of adaptation it can come into existence without a supreme being try reading p w atkins creation revisited freeman petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re islam dress code for women in article ba c i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes do women have souls in islam people have said here that some muslims say that women do not have souls i must admit i have never heard of such a view being held by muslims of any era i have heard of some christians of some eras holding this viewpoint but not muslims are you sure you might not be confusing christian history with islamic history yes it is supposed to have been a predominant view in the turkish caliphate i am not aware of any turkish caliphate viewpoint on this can you reference however i found a quote due to imam ali whom the shias follow men never obey your women in any way whatsoever never let them give their advice on any matter whatsoever even those of everyday life indeed allow them freely to give advice on anything and they will fritter away one s wealth and disobey the wishes of the owner of this wealth we see them without religion when alone they are left to their own devices they are lacking in both pity and virtue when their carnal desires are at stake it is easy to enjoy them but they cause great anxiety the most virtious among them are libertines but the most corrupt are whores only those of them whom age has deprived of any charm are untainted by vice they have three qualities particular to miscreants they complain of being oppressed whereas it is they who oppress they make oaths whereas they are lying they pretend to refuse men s solicitations whereas they desire them most ardently let us beg the help of god to emerge victorious from their evil deeds and preserve us in any case from their good ones quote from mas ud al qanawi ref a bouhdiba sexuality in islam p i wouldn t consider this quote as being exemplary of the islamic tm viewpoint though for all we know the prophet s cousin and the fourth khalif hazret i ali may have said this after a frustrating night with a woman selim guncer selim e guncer jaca negra luna grande csser asu y aceitunas en mi alforja aunque sepa los caminos guncer enuxha eas asu edu yo nunca llegare a cordoba fgl
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes that s your mistake it would be better for the children if the mother raised the child one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised do a study and you will get my point but in no way do you have a claim that it would be better if the men stayed home and raised the child that is something false made up by feminists that seek a status above men you do not recognize the fact that men and women have natural differences not just physically but mentally also bobby there s a question here that i just have to ask if all of your posts aren t some sort of extended elaborate hoax why are you trying so hard to convince the entire civilised world that you re feeble minded you have a talent for saying the most absurd things here s a little sign for you print it cut it out and put it on top of your computer terminal engage brain prior to operating keyboard having said all that i must admit we all get a laugh from your stuff graham jenkins graham jenkins its csiro au csiro commonwealth scientific industrial canberra australia research organisation
alt.atheism	re jews can t hide from keith cco in article c daq fqs austin ibm com karner austin ibm com f karner writes so you consider the german poster s remark anti semitic when someone says so after years of sightseeing and roaming around its ok to come back kill palastinians and get their land back right yes that s casual antisemitism i can think of plenty of ways to criticize israeli policy without insulting jews or jewish history can t you jon
alt.atheism	re don t more innocents die without the death penalty james f tims p psilink com writes by maintaining classes d and e even in prison it seems as if we place more innocent people at a higher risk of an unjust death than we would if the state executed classes d and e with an occasional error i would rather be at a higher risk of being killed than actually killed by mistake though i do agree with the concept that the type d and e murderers are a massive waste of space and resources i don t agree with the concept killing is wrong if you kill we will punish you our punishment will be to kill you seems to be lacking in consistency i know is nothing more than i believe with pretentions
alt.atheism	re islam dress code for women in article apr ennews eas asu edu guncer enuxha eas asu edu selim guncer writes i wouldn t consider this quote as being exemplary of the islamic tm viewpoint though for all we know the prophet s cousin and the fourth khalif hazret i ali may have said this after a frustrating night with a woman that s very interesting i wonder are women s reactions recorded after a frustrating night with a man is that considered to be important jon
alt.atheism	re there must be a creator maybe in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article apr bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk leonard newnham writes deletions argument from incredulity has not been considered a valid form of reasoning since medieval times deletions interesting that you should mention that argument from incredulity has not been considered a valid form of reasoning since medieval times i quite agree why then do some atheists here engage in it more than a few times i have read posts where the atheists posting state that they cannot see how a gracious and loving god can allow such evil and suffering to occur as we see on the earth simply because they cannot envision it it must not be true if this is not an argument from incredulity i don t know what is as you have presented it it is indeed an argument from incredulity however from what i have seen it is not often presented in this manner it is usually presented more in the form and besides i cannot see nor have i ever been offered a convincing explanation moreover it is not unreasonable to ask for an explanation for such phenomena that theism does not provide a convincing explanation is not an argument in theism s favor especially when different theisms offer different explanations and even different adherents of what is purportedly the same theism give different explanations god has far more complex motivations and reasons for action or non action than to simply fix evil whenever and however it occurs or even before it occurs and yet it is this very same argument from incredulity which ranks high among reasons why atheists in general reject god and in particular the christian god not im my experience in my experience the most common reason is the lack of evidence in theism s favor you mileage may vary this seems to be the universal bane of human reasoning and rationality to wit that it is far easier to see the logical fallacy or inept reasoning on the part of one s opponents than it is to see it in oneself oh heck i ll be snide this once it s also fairly easy to attack arguments that are not made i e strawmen as one man of wisdom put it take the log out of your own eye before you try to remove the splinter from your neighbor s eye sage advice indeed sincerely raymond ingles ingles engin umich edu an apple every eight hours keeps three doctors away b kliban
alt.atheism	re political atheists keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis co uk writes perhaps we shouldn t imprision people if we could watch them closely instead the cost would probably be similar especially if we just implanted some sort of electronic device why wait until they commit the crime why not implant such devices in potential criminals like communists and atheists sorry i don t follow your reasoning you are proposing to punish people before they commit a crime what justification do you have for this no mathew is proposing a public defence mechanism not treating the electronic device as an impropriety on the wearer what he is saying is that the next step beyond what you propose is the permanent bugging of potential criminals this may not on the surface sound like a bad thing but who defines what a potential criminal is if the government of the day decides that being a member of an opposition party makes you a potential criminal then openly defying the government becomes a lethal practice this is not conducive to a free society mathew is saying that implanting electronic surveillance devices upon people is an impropriety upon that person regardless of what type of crime or what chance of recidivism there is basically you see the criminal justice system as a punishment for the offender and possibly therefore a deterrant to future offenders mathew sees it most probably as a means of rehabilitation for the offender so he was being cynical at you okay jeff
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes nanci ann miller writes the corrupted over and over theory is pretty weak comparison of the current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text has in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia this shouldn t be all that suprising people who believe in a text in this manner are likely to makes some pains to make good copies tell it to king james mate c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god john burke jdb summa tamu edu
alt.atheism	re islamic marriage date tue apr gmt from f karner karner austin ibm com in article apr cadence com mas cadence com masud khan writes in article c qav wg austin ibm com karner austin ibm com f karner writes okay so you want me to name names there are obviously no official records of these pseudo marriages because they are performed for convenience what happens typically is that the woman is willing to move in with her lover without any scruples or legal contracts to speak of the man is merely utilizing a loophole by entering into a temporary religious marriage contract in order to have sex nobody complains nobody cares nobody needs to know perhaps you should alert your imam it could be that this practice is far more widespread than you may think or maybe it takes muslim men to witness the penetration to decide if the practice exists again you astound me with the level of ignorance you display muslims are not allowed to enter temporary marriages got that there is no evidence for it it an outlawed practise so get your facts straight buddy give me references for it or just tell everyone you were lying it is not a widespread as you may think fantasise in fact contrary to your fantasies it is not practised at all amongst muslims did you miss my post on this topic with the quote from the indonesian handbook and fred rice s comments about temporary marriages if so i will be glad to repost them will you accept that it just may be a practice among some muslims if i do or will you continue to claim that we are all lying and that it is not practised at all amongst muslims i don t think f karner has to tell everyone anything least of all that he is lying since you obviously know nothing about this practice there is very little you can contribute to the discussion except to accuse everyone of lying perhaps it is your ignorance which is showing learn more about islam learn more about muslims open your eyes maybe you will also see some of the things the atheists see
alt.atheism	re don t more innocents die without the death penalty in article chrisb baarnie chrisb tafe sa edu au chris bell writes killing is wrong if you kill we will punish you our punishment will be to kill you seems to be lacking in consistency not any more so than holding people against their will is wrong if you hold people against their will we will punish you our punishment will be to hold you against your will is there any punishment which isn t something which if done by a private person to another private person for no apparent reason would lead to punishment fines i suppose jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept of philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university of arizona tucson az
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article suopanki apr stekt oulu fi suopanki stekt oulu fi heikki t suopanki writes god is eternal a b jesus is god c a therefore jesus is eternal c b this works both logically and mathematically god is of the set of things which are eternal jesus is a subset of god therefore jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal the first premise and the conclusion are not properly translated as identity statements since the is in those statements is the is of predication rather than of identity instead they should be translated using a predicate letter using g to designate god and j to designate jesus and the predicate letter e for the property of being eternal the first premise is eg and the conclusion is ej the second premise appears to contain an is of identity in which case it can be properly symbolized as j g but your remark that jesus is a subset of god suggests that strict identity is not desired here if however the first premise means that all members making up the set god have the property of being eternal the same conclusion follows jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept of philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university of arizona tucson az
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses in article chrisb baarnie chrisb tafe sa edu au chris bell writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes my syllogism is of the form a is b c is a therefore c is b this is a logically valid construction your syllogism however is of the form a is b c is b therefore c is a therefore yours is a logically invalid construction and your comments don t apply if all of those are is s of identity both syllogisms are valid if however b is a predicate then the second syllogism is invalid the first syllogism as you have pointed out is valid whether b is a predicate or designates an individual jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept of philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university of arizona tucson az
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts student writes somewhere roger colin shouse writes about radical gay dogma somewhere else he claims not to claim to have a claim to knowing those he doesn t know there are at least twenty instances of this kind of muddleheaded fourth reich sophistique shit in his postings maybe more in fact i m not sure the instances could be counted because they reproduce like a virus the more you consider his words my question is this what is the best response to weasels like shouse and stan krieger possibilities a study them dispassionately and figure out how they work then remember what you ve learned so as to combat them when they or their clones get into office contribute your insights to your favorite abnormal psych ward b learn to overcome your repugnance for serial murder this posting is totally uncalled for in rec scouting the point has been raised and has been answered roger and i have clearly stated our support of the bsa position on the issue specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of the scout oath specifically the promise to live morally straight there is really nothing else to discuss trying to cloud the issue with comparisons to blacks or other minorities is also meaningless because it s like comparing apples to oranges i e people can t control their race but they can control their behavior what else is there to possibly discuss on rec scouting on this issue nobody including bsa is denying anybody the right to live and or worship as they please or don t please but it doesn t mean that bsa is the big bad wolf for adhering to the recognized positive religious and moral standards on which our society has been established and on which it should continue to be based stan krieger all opinions advice or suggestions even unix system laboratories if related to my employment are my own summit nj smk usl com
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes pnanci ann miller writes p p my favorite reply to the you are being too literal minded complaint is p that if the bible is really inspired by god and if it is really that p important to him then he would make damn certain all the translators and p scribes and people interpreting and copying it were getting it right p literally if not then why should i put any merit at all in something p that has been corrupted over and over and over by man even if it was p originally inspired by god p pthe corrupted over and over theory is pretty weak comparison of the pcurrent hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text phas in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia this pshouldn t be all that suprising people who believe in a text in this manner pare likely to makes some pains to make good copies well corrupted the first time is good enough seeing that the bible was constructed years after jesus s death in the text of merchants ie owe this and owe that i wonder how anyone can take the literal word seriously obviously it was not intended for such nonsense otherwise the authors of the bible would not need to plagerize sp off of the asians for most of the contents that can be interperated to make sense
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution p my atheism is incidental and the question of god is trivial p p but p p it matters a great deal to me when idiots try to force their belief on me p when they try to enforce their creation myths to be taught as scientific p fact in school when they tell me i can have no morals because morals are p from god when a successful presidential candidate says that an atheist p shouldn t be considered a citizen and couldn t be patriotic because after p all this is one nation under god when the fundies try to take over the p party that may well provide the next president of the united states of p america so that they can force their beliefs on the rest of the country p et cetera p p that s why i subscribe to alt atheism p p and in the middle of this people who aren t mind readers pop up on p alt atheism to tell me what i do or don t believe or to concoct some p straw man reason why i don t share their particular belief p p you think i should just accept this p p this isn t particularly a dig at fundamentalist christians i have been p told on alt atheism that i reject allah because i am too proud to embrace p islam and that i reject krishna because my eyes are closed but most of p the religious nuts who post on alt atheism are some kind of militant p christian who can t accept that others don t share their beliefs this p kind of stuff should be kept on talk religion misc where it belongs p p atheism isn t a belief it s the absence of belief in any gods p p p do you have a problem with this p p p bill pfirst i would like to say that atheism is in fact a belief it is a beilief pbecause a belief in something you hold to with ador and faith an atheist says there are no gods this cannot be proven therefore you are excepting this on pfaith alone that is a belief secondly you complain so much about how the pfundamental christians are trying to force their beliefs on you but you don t pmention anything about how the atheists such as madamme murry o hare founder pof the atheists association in austin texas and robert sherman from the chicago area have been trying to force their beliefs on everyone by trying to get rid of god from our society by banning religious paintings from parks during chistmas forcing cities to change their town seals if there is any mention of god in it like sherman has done or trying to get the slogan in god we trust off of the american currency you also talk about creation myths as if they are in fact myths and tha p p p phave concrete evidece of this you probably pdon t and that just enforces my point that your atheism is just as much belief as my christianity if this is not so please do show me why it isn t pmark covalt the only real problem i have with the argument of christianity is that they seem to ignore their origin that being asiatic in origin as soon as christians become the good non ego centric buddhists they are supposed to be then i might listen my opinion i speak not for my place of employment but i should christ was over rated and will the atf follow koresh the current christ through his ascention to heaven
alt.atheism	re alt atheism faq introduction to atheism i have an addition to the faq regarding why are there no atheist hospitals if i recall correctly johns hopkins was built to provide medical services without the backing of a religious group thus making it a hospital dedicated to the glory of weak atheism might someone check up on this brian evans bad mood bad mood sure i m in a bad mood bevans carina unm edu i haven t had sex ever virgin mary
alt.atheism	re theists posting in article c ux aic ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes stuff deleted is there a concordance for the faq which translation is considered most authoritative is there an orthodox commentary for the faq available is there one faq for militant atheists and another for moderate atheists or do you all read from the same faq if so how do you resolve differences of interpretation hmmmmmmmmmmmm i can put the same question to followers of any religion how do you moslems resolve differences of opinion don t tell me that there is one interpretation of the quran read the soc culture newsgroups you will zillions of different interpretations naren naren tekig pen tek com all standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else list of killings in the name of religion iran iraq war civil war in sudan riots in india pakistan in massacares in bangladesh in inquistions in america in s x million x crusades i am sure that people can add a lot more to the list i wonder what bobby has to say about the above standard excuses will not be accepted naren all standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism nanci ann miller nm w andrew cmu edu writes snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else there are definitely quite a few horrible deaths as the result of both atheists and theists perhaps since i m a bit weak on history somone here would like to give a list of wars caused led by theists this thread seems to be arguing the validity of a religious viewpoint according to some utilitarian principle i e atheism religion is wrong because it causes death the underlying moral is that death is wrong this is a rather arbitrary measure of validity get some epistemology richard harlequin com internet richard harlequin co uk internet rptb uk ac cambridge phoenix janet zen buddhist
alt.atheism	re radical agnostic not reply to zazen austin ibm com e h welbon there is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt that a god does not exist but if anyone has one by all means tell me what it is therefore lacking this ability of absolute proof being an atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself and this i cannot accept i accept nothing on blind faith invisible pink flying unicorns need i say more i harbor no beliefs at all there is no good evidence for god existing or not some folks call this agnosticism it does not suffer from blind faith at all i think of it as don t worry be happy for many atheists the lack of belief in gods is secondary to an epistemological consideration what do we accept as a reliable way of knowing there are no known valid logical arguments for the existence of gods nor is there any empirical evidence that they exist most philosophers and theologians agree that the idea of a god is one that must be accepted on faith faith is belief without a sound logical basis or empirical evidence it is a reliable way of knowing there is probably nothing else most people would accept in the absence of any possibility of proof even when we agree to take someone elses word on faith we just mean that having found this person to be reliable in the past we judge him likely to be a reliable source now if we find faith less reliable than logic and empirical evidence everywhere else why assume it will provide reliable knowledge about gods the difference between the atheist and the theist is fundamentally then one of whether or not faith is held to be a reliable way of knowing rather than as some agnostic posters would have it whether ones faith is in gods or no gods the theist believes that faith is an acceptable basis for a belief in gods even if he rejects faith as reliable at other times for example in his work as a scientist the atheist believes that only logic and empirical evidence lead to reliable knowledge agnosticism seems to me a less defensible position than theism or atheism unless one is a sceptic in regards to all other knowledge without evidence why should we believe in gods rather than santa claus or the easter bunny i would also like to point out as others have that the atheist doesn t require absolute knowledge of the lack of gods i don t believe that there is any such thing as absolute knowledge atheism is the best and simplest theory to fit the lack of facts and so should be held until contrary evidence is found david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	re is keith as ignorant as he seems mam mouse cmhnet org mike mcangus writes no everything wouldn t be ok but it would be a start now wait if the religious organizations were no longer tax exempt what other beef could you have they would then have as much right to lobby as would any other group you asked would everything be okay i answered no everything encompasses more than just the tax exempt status of religious organizations well if everything wouldn t be okay then tell us what it is that wouldn t be okay that is if religions were no longer tax exempt then what would be wrong with their lobbying or otherwise attempting to influence politics keith
alt.atheism	re keith schneider stealth poster mam mouse cmhnet org mike mcangus writes let me see if i understand what you are saying in order to talk knowledgeably about religion atheists must first have been so immersed in a religion that only the rare individual could have left no you don t understand i said that i don t think people can discuss the subjective merits of religion objectively this should be obvious people here have said that everyone would be better off without religion but this almost certainly isn t true but really are you threatened by the motto or by the people that use it the motto is a tool let s try to take away the tool but guns and axes are tools both of which have been used for murder should both be taken away that is to say i don t think motto misuse warrants its removal at least not in this case keith
alt.atheism	re keith schneider stealth poster cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan writes i somewhat agree with u however what it comes to theist religion it s a different matter that s because religion is like a drug once u use it it s very difficult to get out of it that s because in order to experience a religion u necessarily have to have blind faith and once u have the blind faith it s very diffcult for you to reason yourself back to atheism again therefore it s unreasonable to ask people to try religion in order to judge it it s like asking people to try dying to find out what death is like well now we can t judge death until we are dead right so why should we judge religion without having experienced it people have said that religion is bad by any account and that it is in no way useful etc but i don t totally agree with this of course we cannot really say how the religious folk would act had they not been exposed to religion but some people at least seemed to be helped in some ways by it so basically we can not judge whether religion is the right route for a given individual or even for a general population we can say that it is not best for us personally at least you can choose not to use religion might be hard to try to find out its benefits as you state above keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists mmwang adobe com michael wang writes i was looking for a rigorous definition because otherwise we would be spending the rest of our lives arguing what a christian really believes i don t think we need to argue about this ks do you think that the motto points out that this country is proud ks of its freedom of religion and that this is something that ks distinguishes us from many other countries mw no ks well your opinion is not shared by most people i gather perhaps not but that is because those seeking to make government recognize christianity as the dominant religion in this country do not think they are infringing on the rights of others who do not share their beliefs yes but also many people who are not trying to make government recognize christianity as the dominant religion in this country do no think the motto infringes upon the rights of others who do not share their beliefs and actually i think that the government already does recognize that christianity is the dominant religion in this country i mean it is don t you realize recognize this this isn t to say that we are supposed to believe the teachings of christianity just that most people do like i ve said before i personally don t think the motto is a major concern if you agree with me then what are we discussing ks since most people don t seem to associate christmas with jesus much ks anymore i don t see what the problem is can you prove your assertion that most people in the u s don t associate christmas with jesus anymore no but i hear quite a bit about christmas and little if anything about jesus wouldn t this figure be more prominent if the holiday were really associated to a high degree with him or are you saying that the association with jesus is on a personal level and that everyone thinks about it but just never talks about it that is can you prove that most people do associate christmas most importantly with jesus anyways the point again is that there are people who do associate christmas with jesus it doesn t matter if these people are a majority or not i think the numbers do matter it takes a majority or at least a majority of those in power to discriminate doesn t it keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes the probability that the automobile system will kill someone innocent in an accident goes asymptotically close to just like the court system however anyone who doesn t like the automobile system can opt out as i have this isn t true many people are forced to use the automobile system i certainly don t use it by choice if there were other ways of getting around i d do it secondly we do try to make the automobile system as safe as possible because we do recognize the danger to the innocent whereas the us the current example is not trying to make the court system safer which it could fairly easily do by replacing fatal punishments with non fatal punishments but i think that the court system has been refined over hundreds of years in the us britain and other countries we have tried to make it as fair as possible can it be made better without removing the death penalty besides life imprisonment sounds like a fatal punishment to me keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists dace shrike und ac za roy dace writes keith allan schneider keith cco caltech edu wrote some soldiers are dependent on religion for a number of purposes and some are no doubt dependent on cocaine yet i don t see the military paying for coca fields while religion certainly has some benefits in a combat situation what are the benefits of cocaine keith
alt.atheism	re pompous ass mvs psuvm psu edu writes many people would probably think especially if the fanatics propogandized this that this was a conflict between the atheists and the religious many would get the impression that we were trying to outlaw religion if we contintue to try to remove all things with a religious reference that s not what the people i ve asked think perhaps you would be right if you said the fundamentalists would think this way after all they think they are being oppressed when they are not allowed to oppress however you have not shown where you get this idea that many people would probably think it s atheism vs religion winner take all as far as i can tell it is your groundless prediction that this will happen but you haven t taken into the account of propoganda remember if you asked germans before wwii if the jews shoudl be slaughtered they would probably answer no but after the propoganda machine rolled through at least some were able to tolerate it you see it only takes a small group of fanatics to whip up a general frenzy the propoganda machines have been in gear over a number of issues including abortion and gays look at some of the things that have happened well so far they have passed one amendment which is currently under intense scrutiny and they have failed to outlaw abortion which is their prime goal on that issue yep they seem sooo effective sure well they haven t managed to outlaw abortion due to the possible objectivity of the courts but they have managed to create quite a few problems for people that wanted to have an abortion they could create similar problems for us and it could be worse they can try to stop abortions by blocking clinics etc but imagine what they d have to do to stop atheism besides the margin of error is very large when you only talk to two people better than your one that is your opinion also i have branched out and the informal survey is up over half a dozen now and what have they said were you questions unbiased keith you would claim that my questions are biased the minute i posted them because the answers agreed with me everyone i have asked about the possible removal of the motto the christian portion has expressed regret about its loss because they like it however when it is pointed out to them that a new motto will not be in the works none have expressed the desire to rape murder pillage etc which you have basically claimed so you are able to convince them individually but could you convince a whole room of them a whole nation as for the atheist portion i know some around here they have all expressed disgust with the motto some noted being harassed by christians who used the motto to try to seem justified and all would see it gone yes i d be glad if it were gone to i ve never supported it however i think that it is a minor problem that can be easily ignored contrasted with what could happen an what may be likely which christians designed the motto does the motto say anything about jesus why do you think that it refers only to christians christians wrote it christians think that their religion is right and all others are wrong therefore why would they include other religions in the realm of being correct i doubt that any other religions were meant to be included well i am not clear on the religious convictions of francis scott key the motto can be attributed to him but it is at least clear that he believed in a god and surely there are a few christians that think as you say but i don t think that most do do you think that all christians actively despise other religions most that i have met haven t and don t do so no christian that i have queried thinks it means anything but them and only them why not ask some people of other faiths sorry i would but christianity is just so awfully popular around here suppose you could ask a few people well i have asked a hindu moselem and a few jews and all of them think that it is applicable to them of course i can t say that these people just some that i know pretty well are accurate representations of their faiths it is always a good idea to assume that there were dissenting views on any given issue you are assuming that all the views were the same and nothing leads to this conclusion without evidence to the contrary i doubt that there were dissenting opinions you claim there were provide some evidence for your assertion well i d really like to and i ve tried but i really don t know where to get access to congressional records from the s can anyone help out here comparing christians to nazis interesting only in the sense that neither can probably convinced to change their beliefs no again the motto on the money doesn t cost you anything extra however if you abolished the motto we d all have to pay to have all the dies and plates redone like people paid before to get them changed to have the motto on them you now need to show that there is a good reason to change everything again also i doubt that they use th same plates for more than a year s printing this would make it easy to remove the motto simply make next year s plates without it your claim evidently is that they will have to pay extra somewhere provide some evidence for this assertion so are you saying that they redesign the plates each year anyway your whole argument conveniently deleted i see was that the motto somehow costs us all a lot of money this is just not correct the ones i read didn t mention anything about jesus i think the issue was concerning the distinction between religion and not how could it be between religious and not religious the motto refers to god it is a religious motto the question is whether or not it is only christian you say it is more i doubt this provide some evidence for this assertion that is to say the religion of this country and the non religion of the ussr that was what most of those quotes were about and some included all atheists in general as well i don t think that any of the quotes although i seem to have lost them mentioned anything at all about jesus they advocated religion over non religion a specific religion was not mentioned you have missed this point i said that the motto didn t say anything about anyone in particular that is the motto doesn t imply anything about your particular beliefs it doesn t say that everyone trusts in some form of god only that the nation on the whole does we have been through this before it s obvious it does not include me this much is beyond doubt your claim again is that the motto refers to more than christians based on the facts that christianity says all other religions are wrong and because it seems that the motto was written by christians i doubt your claim so you are saying that all christians must believe that all other religions should be outlawed just because they think they are wrong that s silly i think the flat earthers are wrong but i don t advocate their banishment based on this idea i doubt that any additional expense would even be incurred by removing the motto provide some evidence for your claim that it would i think that any such cost would be insignificant i mentioned the slight cost because you said that the motto was costing us a lot of money by being on our currency disregarding the digression of the other motto if it is used for harassment and no other purpose has been found for it why should it not be removed well mottos in general don t really have purposes i don t think it should be removed because i think the benefit would be outweighed by the consequences and do you know what the vote was were there other opinions do you think that the main reason the motto was required by law was to bother atheists do you think that this is what the majority of congress at the time had in mind if you do then show why again it is the opinion of the people who put it there that i am concerned with then you should be concerned with the opinion of the entire congress again it is not necessary that the complete majority shared the purpose of confronting godless communism with this motto why not it is the majority that put it there the general public probably does not know about the anti atheist intent of a few people in the s either i daresay more people remember the s than the time when key wrote the anthem but do they remember the debate surrounding the motto do they remember that some people intended it to be a message against atheists why don t you include this in your little survey that you were conducting you claim here that scientists would believe someone s claims i doubt this provide evidence for your assertion what should i ask some scientists the probability that something einstein said about relativity is worthy i mean if einstein said it there s a good chance that it was right at least at the time as for the courts the method scientists use can be applied i need not agree with the court by default because of a good record you need not agree with them all of the time but you would certainly think that their decisions would be good evidence in favor of some point what but you said you didn t agree with the court because they allowed congress to attempt to make an amendment prohibiting flag burning if you don t realize that something like this is external to the realm of the court s power then how can i be confident that you know anything about the court s powers i mean if you don t know how the court works how can you participate in a discussion of the court a judge can go to speak before congress and still you ignore the abortion gag rule as you make your claims on abortion no i think that it would be clearly inappropriate for a supreme court justice to testify before congress during the consideration of a constitutional amendment and in order for the court to rule on something a case usually must be presented mushrooms flowers trees buildings signs whatever the analogy is the same just because something that i might find offensive is present doesn t mean that my rights are being violated we are talking about something put there by people keith not a mushroom no one caused that mushroom to exist unless you re finding things offensive in a mushroom farm yes some mushrooms can be planted and i don t appreciate mushrooms on my pizza either this is not the case with the motto and you re ignoring the harassment which is the only known result of the motto and you re ignoring that somewhere along the line people were forced to put the motto there who was forced to put the motto there what do you mean keith
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses suopanki stekt oulu fi writes on apr mst jbrown batman bmd trw com said god is eternal a b jesus is god c a therefore jesus is eternal c b this works both logically and mathematically god is of the set of things which are eternal jesus is a subset of god therefore jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal everything isn t always so logical mercedes is a car that girl is mercedes therefore that girl is a car unfortunately your phrasing is ambiguous re writing more carefully we have at least two possibilities the first things called mercedes are cars that girl is called mercedes therefore that girl is a car that is entirely valid as a piece of logical deduction it is not sound because the first statement is false similarly i would hold that jim s example is valid but not sound another possible interpretation of what you wrote is there exists at least one car called mercedes that girl is called mercedes therefore that girl is a car which isn t valid mathew
alt.atheism	re political atheists keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis co uk writes perhaps we shouldn t imprision people if we could watch them closely instead the cost would probably be similar especially if we just implanted some sort of electronic device why wait until they commit the crime why not implant such devices in potential criminals like communists and atheists sorry i don t follow your reasoning you are proposing to punish people before they commit a crime what justification do you have for this look up irony keith mathew
alt.atheism	re political atheists keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis co uk writes as for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist not so if you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you blame the tiger as far as i know tigers are not sentient if i were pushed into a pool with some dolphins and they attacked me i might be inclined to blame the dolphins rather than the person doing the pushing as a dolphins are not usually aggressive and b they seem to have well developed brains and a capacity for abstract thought as a matter of fact tigers rarely attack humans unless the human provokes them of course if they are in a cage which is far too small that might count as provocation mathew
alt.atheism	re political atheists kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes i am almost sure that zyklon b is immediate and painless method of death if not insert soem other form and ethnic and minority groups have been killed mutilated and exterminated through out history so i guess it was not unusual so you would agree that the holocost would be allowed under the us constitution in so far the punishment i doubt they recieved what would be considered a fair trial by us standards don t be so sure look what happened to japanese citizens in the us during world war ii if you re prepared to say let s round these people up and stick them in a concentration camp without trial it s only a short step to gassing them without trial after all it seems that the nazis originally only intended to imprison the jews the final solution was dreamt up partly because they couldn t afford to run the camps because of the devastation caused by goering s total war those who weren t gassed generally died of malnutrition or disease mathew
alt.atheism	re atheist i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article ii i b w w mantis co uk tony lezard tony mantis co uk writes deletion my opinion is that the strong atheist position requires too much belief for me to be comfortable with any strong atheists out there care to comment humans just come up with the idea of a spiritual parent it is one of the artifacts of human thought the evidence for that is quite overwhelming and the information content of the conceived is vanishing in other words if there were gods they would hardly make sense and it is possible to explain the phenomenon of religion without gods the concept is useless and i don t have to introduce new assumptions in order to show that no leap of faith required for me your mileage may vary yes i fully agree with that but is it i don t believe gods exist or i believe no gods exist as mandtbacka finabo abo fi mats andtbacka pointed out it all hinges on what you take the word believe to mean unfortunately this is bound up in the definitions of strong and weak atheism at least according to the faq atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of god some atheists go further and believe that god does not exist the former is often referred to as the weak atheist position and the latter as strong atheism it is important to note the difference between these two positions weak atheism is simple scepticism disbelief in the existence of god strong atheism is a positive belief that god does not exist please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are strong atheists from mathew s an introduction to atheism version last modified apr should the faq be clarified to try to pin down this notion of belief can it tony lezard is tony mantis co uk or tony mantis co uk uknet ac uk or things like tony uk co mantis uk ac nsfnet relay or last resort arl phx cam ac uk pgp public key available on request
alt.atheism	re political atheists mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes i think you mean circular not recursive but that is semantics recursiveness has no problems it is just horribly inefficient just ask any assembly programmer tail recursive functions in scheme are at least as efficient as iterative loops anyone who doesn t program in assembler will have heard of optimizing compilers mathew
alt.atheism	re an anecdote about islam in bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu writes deletia i don t understand the point of this petty sarcasm it is a basic principle of islam that if one is born muslim or one says i testify that there is no god but god and mohammad is a prophet of god that so long as one does not explicitly reject islam by word then one must be considered muslim by all muslims so the phenomenon you re attempting to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic islamic principles if you want to attack islam you could do better than than to argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts in the deletions somewhere it mentioned something about chopping off of hands being a punishment for theft in saudi arabia assuming this is so i wouldn t know and assuming it is done by people fitting your requirement for muslim which i find highly likely then would you please try to convince bobby mozumder that muslims chop people s hands off come back when you ve succeeded disclaimer it s great to be young and insane
alt.atheism	a fundamental contradiction was a visit from jws jbrown batman bmd trw com writes will is self determination in other words god created conscious beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently of god all will therefore is free will the above is probably not the most representative paragraph but i thought i d hop on anyway what strikes me as self contradicting in the fable of lucifer s fall which by the way i seem to recall to be more speculation than based on biblical text but my ex rcism may be showing is that as benedikt pointed out lucifer had perfect nature yet he had the free will to choose evil but where did that choice come from we know from genesis that eve was offered an opportunity to sin by a tempter which many assume was satan but how did lucifer discover invent create call the action what you will something that god had not given origin to also where in the bible is there mention of lucifer s free will we make a big fuss about mankind having free will but it strikes me as being an after the fact rationalisation and in fact like salvation not one that all christians believe in identically at least in my mind salvation and free will are very tightly coupled but then my theology was roman catholic still how do theologian explain lucifer s fall if lucifer had perfect nature did man how could he fall how could he execute an act that a contradicted his nature and b in effect cause evil to exist for the first time lucio de re lucio proxima alt za tab stops at four
alt.atheism	re atheist tony lezard tony mantis co uk writes my opinion is that the strong atheist position requires too much belief for me to be comfortable with any strong atheists out there care to comment as far as i can tell strong atheists are far outnumbered on alt atheism by weak atheists at the cost of repudiating the faq i think too much is made of the strong vs weak atheism issue although in the context of alt atheism where we re continually attacked on the basis that strong atheists believe in the non existence of god i think the separation is a valid one to cover my arse what i m trying to say is that there is an infinitely grey area between weak and strong as well as between strong and the unattainable mathematical atheism i wish whereas i logically can only support the weak atheist position in effect i am a strong atheist and wish i could be a mathematical one to justify my strong atheist position i believe i need only show that the evidence presented in favour of any of the gods under scrutiny is faulty if i read the faq correctly no argument for the existence of god generic as represented by mainstream theologians has ever been found to be unassailable to me this is adequate evidence that the real god is undefinable or at least no definition has yet been found to be watertight which in turn i accept as sufficient to base a disbelief in each and every conceivable god i m a little fuzzy on the edges though so opinions are welcome but perhaps we should change the thread subject lucio de re lucio proxima alt za tab stops at four
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes why would the rushdie case be particularly legitimate as i ve said elsewhere on this issue rushdie s actions had effects in islamic countries so that it is not so simple to say that he didn t commit a crime in an islamic country actually it is simple a person p has committed a crime c in country x if p was within the borders of x at the time when c was committed it doesn t matter if the physical manifestation of c is outside x for instance if i hack into nasa s ames research lab and delete all their files i have committed a crime in the united kingdom if the us authorities wish to prosecute me under us law rather than uk law they have no automatic right to do so this is why the net authorities in the us tried to put pressure on some sites in holland holland had no anti cracking legislation and so it was viewed as a hacker haven by some us system administrators similarly a company called red hot television is broadcasting pornographic material which can be received in britain if they were broadcasting in britain they would be committing a crime but they are not they are broadcasting from denmark so the british government is powerless to do anything about it in spite of the apparent law breaking of course i m not a lawyer so i could be wrong more confusingly i could be right in some countries but not in others mathew
alt.atheism	re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in cases of prostitution both the man and the prostitute would be punished in public quite severely deletion no gregg you cannot say a is lenient and a punishes severely in public unless of course it is one of the exceptions implied by almost all matters that depends on the statistics and who is punished in public if some power for example nothing islamic about it allows men to rape women five times before blowing the rapist s head off in public then i d call that leniency wouldn t you you have given that example it is not lenient end of argument and chopping off the hands or heads of people is not lenient either it rather appears that you are internalized the claims about the legal system without checking if they suit the description and wasn t the argument that it takes five men to rape a woman according to islamic law while i don t approve of it i think both the prostitute and the customer have the right to do what they do in other words punishing them is a violation of their rights and to punish them severely in public is just another pointer to the hysteria connected with sexuality in so many religions believe what you like no i even believe what i don t like can you give better answers than that have you got any evidence for your probably opposite claims in this case i don t see why i should accept the complex ridden views of an oriental goatherd ah yes i forget that the west is historically so much without sexual neurosis oriental goatherd really intellectual a fact if memory serves and most will see the connection between the primitive machism in the orient and in islam if people agree on having sex it is fine and i would assume that a god would have a clue of what the detrimental effects of supressing it are huh ever heard of aids of course you ll probably go on to say that god must be evil because he allows the disease to exist bla bla as usually you miss the point aids is neither spread only through sex nor necessarily spread by having sex futher the point is a very important point the urge for sex is stronger than the fear of aids it is even stronger than the religious attempts to channel or to forbid sex the consequences of suppressing sex are worse than the consequences of aids please note that the idea that everybody would end up with aids when sex is not controlled is completely counterfactual and since you have brought up the point is your god evil or not benedikt
alt.atheism	re biblical rape in article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes in article ba f c i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes i didn t have time to read the rest of the posting but i had to respond to this i am absolutely not a messianic jew another mistake sorry i should have read alt messianic more carefully benedikt
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts in article apr midway uchicago edu shou midway uchicago edu writes in article pi dhinn ub dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes bigots never concede that their bigotry is irrational it is other people who determine that by examining their arguments no i expected it you ve set yourself up a wonderful little world where a bigot is whomever you say it is this is very comfortable for you imagine never having to entertain an argument against your belief system simply accuse the person making of being a bigot well this particular thread of vituperation slopped its venom over into alt atheism where we spend most of our time entertaining arguments against our belief system without resorting to accusing others of bigotry it s somewhat ironic that our exposure to bigotry happens in this instance to have originated in rec scouting since i always understood scouting to teach tolerance and diversity i understand bigotry to be irrational prejudice against other people who happen to be of a different race religion ethnic background sex or other inconsequential characteristics all the evidence i ve seen indicates that sexual orientation and lack of belief in gods are exactly such inconsequential characteristics thus pending further evidence i conclude that those who show prejudice against such people are bigots and organizations that exclude such people are discriminatory jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution in article pq tinn lp senator bedfellow mit edu bobs thnext mit edu robert singleton writes deletion i will argue that your latter statement i believe that no gods exist does rest upon faith that is if you are making a positive statement that no gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying i don t know and therefore don t believe in them and don t not believe in then weak atheism once again to not believe in god is different than saying i believe that god does not exist i still maintain the position even after reading the faqs that strong atheism requires faith no it in the way it is usually used in my view you are saying here that driving a car requires faith that the car drives for me it is a conclusion and i have no more faith in it than i have in the premises and the argument used but first let me say the following we might have a language problem here in regards to faith and existence i as a christian maintain that god does not exist to exist means to have being in space and time god does not have being god is being kierkegaard once said that god does not exist he is eternal with this said i feel it s rather pointless to debate the so called existence of god and that is not what i m doing here i believe that god is the source and ground of being when you say that god does not exist i also accept this statement but we obviously mean two different things by it however in what follows i will use the phrase the existence of god in it s usual sense and this is the sense that i think you are using it i would like a clarification upon what you mean by the existence of god no that s a word game the term god is used in a different way usually when you use a different definition it is your thing but until it is commonly accepted you would have to say the way i define god is and that does not exist it is existence itself so i say it does not exist interestingly there are those who say that existence exists is one of the indubitable statements possible further saying god is existence is either a waste of time existence is already used and there is no need to replace it by god or you are implying more with it in which case your definition and your argument so far are incomplete making it a fallacy deletion one can never prove that god does or does not exist when you say that you believe god does not exist and that this is an opinion based upon observation i will have to ask what observtions are you refering to there are no observations pro or con that are valid here in establishing a positive belief deletion where does that follow aren t observations based on the assumption that something exists and wouldn t you say there is a level of definition that the assumption god is is meaningful if not i would reject that concept anyway so where is your evidence for that god is is meaningful at some level benedikt
alt.atheism	re is morality constant was re biblical rape this frayed thread has turned into a patented alt atheism on ping pong game and i don t have any strong disagreement so i ll try to stick to the one thing i don t quite follow about the argument it seems to me that there is a contradiction in arguing that the bible was enlightened for its times i e closer to what we would consider morally good based on our standards and past experience on the one hand i hope this summarizes this argument adequately and on the other hand in article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes in article phpe inn g dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes disclaimer i m speaking from the jewish perspective where the bible means what many call the old testament and where the interpretation is not necessarily the raw text but instead the court cases commentaries and traditions passed down through jewish communities this seems the crux to me if you judge the bible according to a long line of traditions and interpretations coming down to the current day rather than on its own merits as a cultural artifact then of course it will correspond more closely with more contemporary values but if that s how the bible is actually being used today shouldn t that be how we should judge it if most people use scissors to cut paper shouldn t consumer s reports test scissors for paper cutting ability even though scissors may have been designed originally to cut cloth that s possibly a good way to judge the use of the bible in teaching jewish morality today but it hardly seems fair to claim that this highly interpreted version is what was enlightened for its times to attempt to extend the analogy this is like saying that the original scissor makers were unusually advanced at paper cutting for their times even though they only ever cut cloth and had never even heard of paper i m not arguing that the bible is disgusting though some of the history depicted in it is by modern standards however history is full of similar abuses and i don t think the biblical accounts are worse than their contemporaries or possibly ours on the other hand i don t know of any reason to think the history described in the bible shows less abuse than their contemporaries or ours that complex and benign moral traditions have evolved based on particular mythic interpretations of that history is interesting but i still don t think it fair to take that long tradition of interpretation and use it to attack condemnation of the original history jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re political atheists mathew mathew mantis co uk writes as for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist unless you force someone to live with the rapist against his will in which case part of the responsibility is yours i m sorry but i can t accept that unless the rapist was hypnotized or something i view him as solely responsible for his actions not necessarily especially if the rapist is known as such for instance if you intentionally stick your finger into a loaded mousetrap and get snapped whose fault is it keith
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised do a study and you will get my point oh bobby you re priceless did i ever tell you that my policy with bobby s posts should anyone give a damn is to flick through the thread at high speed searching for posts of bobby s which have generated a whole pile of followups then go in and extract the hilarious quote inevitably present for sig purposes works for me for the guy who said he s just arrived and asked whether bobby s for real you betcha welcome to alt atheism and rest assured that it gets worse i have a few pearls of wisdom from bobby which i reproduce below is anyone keith keeping a big file of such stuff in allah s infinite wisdom the universe was created from nothing just by saying be and it became therefore allah exists bobby mozumder proving the existence of allah wait you just said that humans are rarely reasonable doesn t that contradict atheism where everything is explained through logic and reason this is the contradiction in atheism that proves it false bobby mozumder proving the existence of allah plus to the believer it would be contradictory to the quran for allah not to exist bobby mozumder proving the existence of allah and now one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised do a study and you will get my point bobby mozumder being islamically rigorous on alt atheism mmmmm quality and quantity from the new voice of islam pbuh cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick ac uk department of computer science tel university of warwick fax coventry cv al u k
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts in article apr cbnewsl cb att com stank cbnewsl cb att com stan krieger writes the point has been raised and has been answered roger and i have clearly stated our support of the bsa position on the issue specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of the scout oath specifically the promise to live morally straight please define morally straight and don t even try saying that straight as it is used here implies only hetersexual behavior eg straight as in the slang word opposite to gay this is alot like family values everyone is talking about them but misteriously no one knows what they are one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left in the world
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts in article apr cbnewsl cb att com stank cbnewsl cb att com stan krieger writes roger and i have clearly stated our support of the bsa position on the issue specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of the scout oath specifically the promise to live morally straight there is really nothing else to discuss apparently not in response to his claim that it terrifies gay people not to be able to indoctrinate children to our lifestyle or words to that effect i sent roger a very calm carefully written detailed letter explaining simply why the bsa policy does indeed terrify me i did not use inflammatory language and left myself extremely open for an answer thus far i have not received an answer i can conclude only that roger considers his position either indefensible or simply not worth defending trying to cloud the issue with comparisons to blacks or other minorities is also meaningless because it s like comparing apples to oranges i e people can t control their race but they can control their behavior in fact that s exactly the point people can control their behavior because of that fact there is no need for a blanket ban on homosexuals what else is there to possibly discuss on rec scouting on this issue you tell me tim pierce usted es la de la tele eh la madre twpierce unix amherst edu del asesino ay que graciosa bitnet twpierce amherst pedro almodovar
alt.atheism	re biblical rape in article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes deletion the thread biblical rape was initiated by david o hunt here is his posting in article feu ko xsf kpc p andrew cmu edu david o hunt bluelobster cmu edu writes i m pretty sure i ve seen biblical rules for when it s allowable to rape prisoners what the codes are about that etc could some more knowledgable soul than i please let me know some references he asked a very narrow question and i gave a very narrow answer yes sorry i have got that wrong my apology deletion no david hunt s post didn t mention a god nor did my response you were the first to bring up the idea of the bible being given by god most jews don t believe this in any literal sense so no fun but i must have met the minority then and given by god refers to any action whereby a god god causes or better effects something rob i am not intimate with jewish theology but i understand that you are a messianic jew correct me if i am wrong but it appears that the views of messianic jews on metaphysics is different to that of the majority of jews while jewish theology overall is quite distinct from the christianic god views i have heard that it is possible for jews to attribute evil to their god an no no for christians the bible is still seen as effect of the interaction of some god with man deletion no i thought we agreed that though jews disagree there are a set of core beliefs that they do agree upon one of which is that the commandments are accessible and written in the language of the time and another of which is that there must be a legal system to update them the context was metaphysics even when the process of adapting the commandments is not transcendent the justification of the process lie in metaphysic specualtion i wonder how you break out of the shackles of having metaphysics in your system deletion could you explain this with respect to the original commandments being discussed that is the commandment that says if you feel like raping a woman prisoner you should instead wait and marry her what about the way this commandment is given invalidates it is is in a book that commands to commit genocide among other reprehensible deeds the context is repulsive and it is foul play imo to invoke some relatively enlightened passages as an example for the content of the whole book big deletion the point is that i see that there is a necessary connection between the theology you use and the interpretation of the bible only very loosely my interpretation of the bible is based on a long tradition of jewish scholars interpreting the bible theology doesn t really enter into it there are jewish atheists who interpret the laws of charity essentially the same way i do no not the interpretation of some laws but the interpretation of the bible as in the example that sodom and gomorrha mean argue with god the whole idea that it is metaphorically and yet allows you to argue with a god whatever that means that alone is a theo logic question is proof of a theology used you pose another metaphysical riddle no you do well you wrote this fine so we have some major spirit with neither absolute power nor absolute knowledge and as it appears limited means or will to communicate with us some form of spiritual big friend do you admit that using god in this context is somewhat unusual am i right in the assumption that it cannot have created the universe as well and that the passages in the bible referring to that or its omnipotence are crap that s what i meant by the riddle it is an important question in the light of what for instance the passage witrh sodom and gomorrha means either there is some connection between the text the fact that it exists and your interpretation of it or it is purely arbitrary further the question is why is has one to carry the burden of biblical texts when one could simply write other books that convey the message better you might answer that one can t becuase some peculiar biblical information might be lost but that holds true of every other book and the question remains why has the bible still a special place can t it be replaced somehow is it ok to bargain the dangerous content of the bible against some other message that is included as well deletion do you see the danger in doing so especially with the metaphers used in the bible i think the danger of doing so is less than either the danger of having a frozen system of laws or having no laws sorry but there are worse systems does not say anything about if one could not have a better system deletion if we read two stories about the importance of helping the poor and in one god is a spirit and in the other god has a body which is more important helping the poor or resolving the contradiction about the corporeal nature of god if we read two stories in the bible one that god commands people to kill children for being idolaters and another where god kills children directly what is more important to resolve the message that children are to be killed or if it has to be done by god and the argument you have given is a fallacy while it may not be important in the context you have given to find out if god is corporeal or not it can be crucial in other questions religious believers resolve contradictions with that they choose one of the possibilities given in an arbitrary way and have the advantage of being able to attribute their decision to some god one cannot resolve questions by the statement do what is good when what is good depends on the question benedikt
alt.atheism	re atheist in article epvk b w w mantis co uk tony lezard tony mantis co uk writes deletion in other words if there were gods they would hardly make sense and it is possible to explain the phenomenon of religion without gods the concept is useless and i don t have to introduce new assumptions in order to show that yes i fully agree with that but is it i don t believe gods exist or i believe no gods exist as mandtbacka finabo abo fi mats andtbacka pointed out it all hinges on what you take the word believe to mean for me it is a i believe no gods exist and a i don t believe gods exist in other words i think that statements like gods are or somehow interfere with this world are false or meaningless in ontology one can fairly conclude that when a exist is meaningless a does not exist under the pragmatic definition of truth a exists is meaningless makes a exist even logically false a problem with such statements is that one can t disprove a subjective god by definition and there might be cases where a subjective god would even make sense the trouble with most god definitions is that they include some form of objective existence with the consequence of the gods affecting all believers derive from it a right to interfere with the life of others deletion should the faq be clarified to try to pin down this notion of belief can it honestly i don t see the problem benedikt
alt.atheism	re why is sex only allowed in marriage rationality was islamic marriage in mar ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes my case is that everything wrong in the world will end if people start believing in islam and that horrors to mankind are all caused by the lack of belief atheism for the last time bobby lack of belief in your god does not imply atheism just because some moslems aren t moral does not mean they don t believe in a god named allah although their allah may not do the things your allah does if a moslem says he she believes that a god exists he she is a theist though maybe not a true follower of islam murder victims a year caused by atheism poverty massive hate crimes such low respect for the human body distrust among people everything wrong all caused by atheism peace jerk bobby mozumder sami aario can you see or measure an atom yet you can explode a cc tut fi one sunlight is comprised of many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros in plan from outer space disclaimer i don t agree with eros
alt.atheism	re motto mania mathew writes i prefer mark jason dominus s suggestion that the motto should be changed to mind your own fucking business in this era of aids isn t someone s fucking everyone s interest semi i propose we have no motto recently in the glorious state of maryland the only state whose state song refers to abraham lincoln as a tyrant people have gotten all wound up over the state motto which we inherited from the calverts fatti maschii parole femine which if you read italian says manly deeds womanly words or something to that effect in the state which not so long ago had four women out of seven representatives this represents a problem the official solution was to change the translation so now it means strong deeds gentle words my personal suggestion was changing it to walk softly and carry a big stick c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses good grief the amount of energy being spent on one lousy syllogism says volumes for the true position of reason in this group c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	benediktine metaphysics benedikt rosenau writes with great authority if it is contradictory it cannot exist contradictory is a property of language if i correct this to things defined by contradictory language do not exist i will object to definitions as reality if you then amend it to things described by contradictory language do not exist then we ve come to something which is plainly false failures in description are merely failures in description i m not an objectivist remember c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re gospel dating so then you require the same amount of evidence to believe that i a own a pair of bluejeans and b have superhuman powers well i could use the argument that some here use about nature and claim that you cannot have superhuman powers because you are a human superhuman powers are beyond what a human has and since you are a human any powers you have are not beyond those of a human hence you cannot have superhuman powers sound good to you anyway to the evidence question it depends on the context in this group since you are posting from a american college site i m willing to take it as given that you have a pair of blue jeans and assuming there is some coherency in your position i will take it as a given that you do not have superhuman powers arguments are evidence in themselves in some respects when you say the existence of sic jesus i assume that you mean just the man without any special powers etc yep many will agree that it is very possible that a man called jesus did in fact live in fact i am willing to agree that there was some man named jesus i have no reason to believe that there wasn t ever a man good however most of the claims are extradinary eg virgin birth virgin in the sense of not having any sexual intercourse resurection son of god etc those claims require extra evidence extra evidence why don t we start with evidence at all i cannot see any evidence for the v b which the cynics in this group would ever accept as for the second it is the foundation of the religion anyone who claims to have seen the risen jesus back in the day period is a believer and therefore is discounted by those in this group since these are all ancients anyway one again to choose to dismiss the whole thing the third is as much a metaphysical relationship as anything else even those who agree to it have argued at length over what it means so again i don t see how evidence is possible i thus interpret the extraordinary claims claim as a statement that the speaker will not accept any evidence on the matter c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	a remarkable admission jon livesey writes i m certainly not going to attempt to distinguish between different flavours of christian all loudly claiming to be the one true christian well it s obvious that you don t attempt otherwise you would be aware that they don t all loudly claim to be the one true christian i ve tried to avoid using the phrase is is not christian because of these ownership issues instead i ve tried the phrase nicene christianity in an attempt to identify the vast majority of christianity which has roughly similar viewpoints on the core theological issues the jws do not fall within this group and in fact espouse a position known as arianism which is rejected by all the nicene churches and virtually everyone else as well c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re gospel dating benedikt rosenau writes the argument goes as follows q oid quotes appear in john but not in the almost codified way they were in matthew or luke however they are considered to be similar enough to point to knowledge of q as such and not an entirely different source assuming you are presenting it accurately i don t see how this argument really leads to any firm conclusion the material in john i m not sure exactly what is referred to here but i ll take for granted the similarity to the matt luke q material is different hence one could have almost any relationship between the two right up to john getting it straight from jesus mouth we are talking date of texts here not the age of the authors the usual explanation for the time order of mark matthew and luke does not consider their respective ages it says matthew has read the text of mark and luke that of matthew and probably that of mark the version of the usual theory i have heard has matthew and luke independently relying on mark and q one would think that if luke relied on matthew we wouldn t have the grating inconsistencies in the geneologies for one thing as it is assumed that john knew the content of luke s text the evidence for that is not overwhelming admittedly this is the part that is particularly new to me if it were possible that you could point me to a reference i d be grateful unfortunately i haven t got the info at hand it was i think in the late s or early s and it was possibly as old as ce when they are from about why do they shed doubt on the order on putting john after the rest of the three because it closes up the gap between supposed writing and the existing copy quit a bit the further away from the original the more copies can be written and therefore survival becomes more probable and i don t think a one step removed source is that bad if luke and mark and matthew learned their stories directly from diciples then i really cannot believe in the sort of big transformation from jesus to gospel that some people posit in news reports one generally gets no better information than this and if john is a diciple then there s nothing more to be said that john was a disciple is not generally accepted the style and language together with the theology are usually used as counterargument i m not really impressed with the theology argument but i m really pointing this out as an if and as i pointed out earlier one cannot make these arguments about i peter i see no reason not to accept it as an authentic letter one step and one generation removed is bad even in our times compare that to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies the best analogy would be reporters talking to the participants which is not so bad in other words one does not know what the original of mark did look like and arguments based on mark are pretty weak but the statement of divinity is not in that section and in any case it s agreed that the most important epistles predate mark c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re yeah right benedikt rosenau writes and what about that revelation thing charley if you re talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation well it s obviously a risk one takes many people say that the concept of metaphysical and religious knowledge is contradictive i m not an objectivist so i m not particularly impressed with problems of conceptualization the problem in this case is at least as bad as that of trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary experience one can get some rough understanding but the language is from the perspective of ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the perspective of what s being described rather inexact to be charitable an analogous situation supposedly obtains in metaphysics the problem is that the better descriptive language is not available and in case it holds reliable information can you show how you establish that this word reliable is essentially meaningless in the context unless you can show how reliability can be determined c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re radical agnostic not in article apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye wrote reply to zazen austin ibm com e h welbon there is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt that a god does not exist but if anyone has one by all means tell me what it is therefore lacking this ability of absolute proof being an atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself and this i cannot accept i accept nothing on blind faith invisible pink flying unicorns need i say more i harbor no beliefs at all there is no good evidence for god existing or not some folks call this agnosticism it does not suffer from blind faith at all i think of it as don t worry be happy for many atheists the lack of belief in gods is secondary to an epistemological consideration what do we accept as a reliable way of knowing there are no known valid logical arguments for the existence of gods nor is there any empirical evidence that they exist most philosophers and theologians agree that the idea of a god is one that must be accepted on faith faith is belief without a sound logical basis or empirical evidence it is a reliable way of knowing could you expand on your definition of knowing it seems a bit monolithic here but i m not sure that you intend that don t we need for example to distinguish between knowing plus equals or apples plus apples equals apples the french knowing that jerry lewis is an auteur and what it means to say we know what socrates said this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell i like this epigraph perhaps the issue is learning which if any absurdities merit further exploration gene
alt.atheism	re political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes my personal objection is that i find capital punishment to be cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances it can be painless so it isn t cruel and it has occurred frequently since the dawn of time so it is hardly unusual i don t take issue with the numbers a single innocent life taken is one too many but innocents die due to many causes why have you singled out accidental or false execution as the one to take issue with keith
alt.atheism	re yeah right in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes for several years i ve periodically asked charley wingate to explain this mythical alternative to rationality which he propounds so enthusiastically when he pops up every few months his reluctance to explain indicates to me that it s not so hot i ve said enough times that there is no alternative that should think you might have caught on by now and there is no alternative but the point is rationality isn t an alternative either the problems of metaphysical and religious knowledge are unsolvable or i should say humans cannot solve them if there is truly no alternative then you have no basis whatsoever for your claim the usual line here which you call a prejudgment of atheism and dispute is that reason is all we have here you admit that you have no alternative no possible basis for the claim that there is anything other than reason or that reason is inapplicable in religious knowledge except possibly that reason conflicts with religious knowledge this sounds very much like i can t provide a rational defense for my belief but prefer to discard rationality rather than accept that it may be false i hope it makes you happy but your repeated and unfounded assertions to this effect don t advance your cause jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re yeah right in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes benedikt rosenau writes and what about that revelation thing charley if you re talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation well it s obviously a risk one takes ah now here is the core question let me suggest a scenario we will grant that a god exists and uses revelation to communicate with humans said revelation taking the form paraphrased from your own words this infinitely powerful deity grabs some poor schmuck makes him take dictation and then hides away for a few hundred years now there exists a human who has not personally experienced a revelation this person observes that not only do these revelations seem to contain elements that contradict rather strongly aspects of the observed world which is all this person has ever seen but there are many mutually contradictory claims of revelation now based on this can this person be blamed for concluding absent a personal revelation of their own that there is almost certainly nothing to this revelation thing i m not an objectivist so i m not particularly impressed with problems of conceptualization the problem in this case is at least as bad as that of trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary experience one can get some rough understanding but the language is from the perspective of ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the perspective of what s being described rather inexact to be charitable an analogous situation supposedly obtains in metaphysics the problem is that the better descriptive language is not available absent this better language and absent observations in support of the claims of revelation can one be blamed for doubting the whole thing here is what i am driving at i have thought a long time about this i have come to the honest conclusion that if there is a deity it is nothing like the ones proposed by any religion that i am familiar with now if there does happen to be say a christian god will i be held accountable for such an honest mistake sincerely ray ingles ingles engin umich edu the meek can have the earth the rest of us are going to the stars robert a heinlein
alt.atheism	re ancient islamic rituals in pkqe inn n lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes deleted to get to the point therefore in a nutshell my opinion is that pre marital sex makes the likelihood of extra marital sex more probable furthermore in my opinion extra marital sex helps break down partnerships and leads to greater divorce rates this in turn in my opinion creates trauma and a less stable environment for children who are then in my opinion more likely to grow up with psychological problems such as depression etc and thus sex outside of marriage is in the long run harmful to society i think that you are drawing links where there are none having sex before marriage has nothing to do with adultery once committed into marriage the issue as i see it is more of how committed you are to not foisting pain on your spouse and how confident you are about yourself in addition what someone does within their marriage is their own business not mine and not yours i have witnessed strong relationships that incorporate extra marital sex i would agree with your assertion about children children should not be witness to such confusing relationships if adultery is stressful to adults which i assume it in general is how can we expect children to understand it where is the evidence for my opinions at the moment there are just generalities i can cite for example i read that in the th century the percentage of youth and people in general who suffer from depression has been steadily climbing in western societies probably what i was reading referred particularly to the usa similarly one can detect a trend towards greater occurrence of sex outside of marriage in this century in western societies particularly with the sexual revolution of the s but even before that i think otherwise the sexual revolution of the s would not have been possible particularly with the gradual weakening of christianity and consequently christian moral teachings against sex outside of marriage i propose that these two trends greater level of general depression in society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being a prime cause of the former i cannot provide any evidence beyond this at this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable to me and i request that people ponder upon it why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards depression you can t just pick your two favorite trends notice a correlation in them and make a sweeping statement of generality i mean you can and people have but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis at best it s a gross oversimplification of the push pull factors people experience my argument is mainly a proposal of what i think is a plausible argument against extra marital sex one which i personally believe has some truth my main purpose for posting it here is to show that a plausible argument can be made against extra marital sex at this stage i am not saying that this particular viewpoint is proven or anything like that just that it is plausible to try to convince you all of this particular point of view i would probably have to do a lot of work researching what has been done in this field etc in order to gather further evidence which i simply do not have time to do now also note that i said that i think extra marital sex is a prime cause in my opinion of the generally greater levels of psychological problems especially depression in western societies i am not saying it is the prime cause or the only cause just a prime cause i e one of the significant contributions to this trend i think when you say you think my view is simplistic you have forgotten this i admit that there are probably other factors but i do think that extra marital sex and imo subsequent destabilization of the family is a significant factor in the rise in psychological problems like depression in western society this century fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re ancient islamic rituals in ednclark kraken ednclark kraken itc gu edu au jeffrey clark writes cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards depression you can t just pick your two favorite trends notice a correlation in them and make a sweeping statement of generality i mean you can and people have but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis at best it s a gross oversimplification of the push pull factors people experience basically the social interactions of all the changing factors in our society are far too complicated for us to control we just have to hold on to the panic handles and hope that we are heading for a soft landing but one things for sure depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is not due solely to sex out of marriage note that i never said that depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is due solely to extra marital sex i specifically said that it was a prime cause of this not the prime cause or the only cause of this i recognize that there are probably other factors too but i think that extra marital sex and subsequent destabilization of the family is probably a significant factor to the rise in psychological problems including depression in the west in the th century fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re why is sex only allowed in marriage rationality was islamic marriage in apr proxima alt za lucio proxima alt za lucio de re writes darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes my point of view is that the argument all sexism is bad just simply does not hold let me give you an example how about permitting a woman to temporarily leave her job due to pregnancy should that be allowed it happens to be sexist as it gives a particular right only to women nevertheless despite the fact that it is sexist i completely support such a law because i think it is just fred you re exasperating sexism like racialism is a form of discrimination using obvious physical or cultural differences to deny one portion of the population the same rights as another in this context your example above holds no water whatsoever there s no discrimination in denying men maternity leave in fact i m quite convinced that were anyone to experiment with male pregnancy it would be possible for such a future father to take leave on medical grounds okay i argued this thoroughly about weeks ago men and women are different physically physiologically and psychologically much recent evidence for this statement is present in the book brainsex by anne moir and david jessel i recommend you find a copy and read it their book is an overview of recent scientific research on this topic and is well referenced now if women and men are different in some ways the law can only adequately take into account their needs in these areas where they are different by also taking into account the ways in which men and women are different maternity leave is an example of this it takes into account that women get pregnant it does not give women the same rules it would give to men because to treat women like it treats men in this instance would be unjust this is just simply an obvious example of where men and women are intrinsically different now people make the naive argument that sexism oppression however maternity leave is sexist because men do not get pregnant men do not have the same access to leave that women do not to the same extent or degree and therefore it is sexist no matter however much a man wants to get pregnant and have maternity leave he never can and therefore the law is sexist no man can have access to maternity leave no matter how hard he tries to get pregnant i hope this is clear maternity leave is an example where a sexist law is just because the sexism here just reflects the sexism of nature in making men and women different there are many other differences between men and women which are far more subtle than pregnancy and to find out more of these i recommend you have a look at the book brainsex your point that perhaps some day men can also be pregnant is fallacious if men can one day become pregnant it will be by having biologically become women to have a womb and the other factors required for pregnancy is usually wrapped up in the definition of what a woman is so your argument when it is examined is seen to be fallacious you are saying that men can have the sexist maternity leave privilege that women can have if they also become women which actually just supports my statement that maternity leave is sexist the discrimination comes in when a woman is denied opportunities because of her legally determined sexual inferiorities as i understand most religious sexual discrimination and i doubt that islam is exceptional the female is not allowed into the priestly caste and in general is subjugated so that she has no aspirations to rights which as an equal human she ought to be entitled to there is no official priesthood in islam much of this function is taken by islamic scholars there are female islamic scholars and female islamic scholars have always existed in islam an example from early islamic history is the prophet s widow aisha who was recognized in her time and is recognized in our time as an islamic scholar no matter how sweetly you coat it part of the role of religions seems historically to have served the function of oppressing the female whether by forcing her to procreate to the extent where there is no opportunity for self improvement or by denying her access to the same facilities the males are offered you have no evidence for your blanket statement about all religions and i dispute it i could go on and on about women in islam etc but i recently reposted something here under the heading islam and women if it is still at your news site i suggest you read it it is reposted from soc religion islam so if it has disappeared from alt atheism it still might be in soc religion islam i forgot what its original title was though i will email it to you if you like the roman catholic church is the most blatant of the culprit because they actually istitutionalised a celibate clergy but the other religious are no different let a woman attempt to escape her role as child bearer and the wrath of god descends on her your statement that other religions are no different is i think a statement based simply on lack of knowledge about religions other than christianity and perhaps judaism i ll accept your affirmation that islam grants women the same rights as men when you can show me that any muslim woman can aspire to the same position as say khomeini and there are no artificial religious or social obstacles on her path to achieve this aisha who i mentioned earlier was not only an islamic scholar but also was at one stage a military leader show me the equivalent of hillary rhodam clinton within islam and i may consider discussing the issue with you the prophet s first wife who died just before the hijra the prophet s journey from mecca to medina was a successful businesswoman lucio you cannot make a strong case for your viewpoint when your viewpoint is based on ignorance about world religions fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re ancient islamic rituals in ba c i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes there has been some discussion on the pros and cons about sex outside of marriage i personally think that part of the value of having lasting partnerships between men and women is that this helps to provide a stable and secure environment for children to grow up in deletion as an addition to chris faehl s post what about homosexuals well from an islamic viewpoint homosexuality is not the norm for society i cannot really say much about the islamic viewpoint on homosexuality as it is not something i have done much research on fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re benediktine metaphysics in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes benedikt rosenau writes with great authority if it is contradictory it cannot exist contradictory is a property of language if i correct this to things defined by contradictory language do not exist i will object to definitions as reality if you then amend it to things described by contradictory language do not exist then we ve come to something which is plainly false failures in description are merely failures in description how about this description an object that is at one time both a euclidean square and a euclidean circle i hold that no object satisfying this description could exist the description is inconsistent and hence describes an object that could not exist now suppose someone pointed to a bicycle and said that object is at one time both a euclidean square and a euclidean circle this does not mean that the bicycle does not exist it measn that the description was incorrectly applied the atheist says the descriptions of god that i have been presented with are contradictory and hence describe something that cannot exist now your position so far as i can gather is that god exists but the descriptions atheists have been presented with are simply bad descriptions of it this is roughly analogous to someone who has never seen a bicycle and when they ask for a description from people who claim to have seen one are told that it is a euclidean circle square can they be blamed for doubting rather strongly that this bicycle exists at all i m not an objectivist remember no kidding sincerely ray ingles ingles engin umich edu the meek can have the earth the rest of us are going to the stars robert a heinlein
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article apr dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale writes for the guy who said he s just arrived and asked whether bobby s for real you betcha welcome to alt atheism and rest assured that it gets worse i have a few pearls of wisdom from bobby which i reproduce below is anyone keith keeping a big file of such stuff sorry i was but i somehow have misplaced my diskette from the last couple of months or so however thanks to the efforts of bobby it is being replenished rather quickly here is a recent favorite satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses good grief in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes the amount of energy being spent on one lousy syllogism says volumes for the true position of reason in this group i agree we spend too much energy on the nonexistance of god satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	evo homosexuality was re princeton etc sorry bill i had to clear this up there may be good evolutionary arguments against homosexuality but these don t qualify in article c vwn jf darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes c wainwright eczcaw mips nott ac uk wrote deletions it would seem odd if homosexuality had any evolutionary function deletions so every time a man has sex with a woman they intend to produce children hmm no wonder the world is overpopulated obviously you keep to the monty python song every sperm is sacred and if as you say it has a purpose as a means to limit population growth then it is by your own arguement natural consider the context i m talking about an evolutionary function one of the most basic requirements of evolution is that members of a species procreate those who don t have no purpose in that context oh i guess all those social insects e g ants bees etc which have one breeding queen and a whole passel of sterile workers are on the way out huh these days is just ain t true people can decide whether or not to have children and when soon they will be able to choose it s sex c but that s another arguement so it s more of a lifestyle decision again by your arguement since homosexuals can not or choose not to reproduce they must be akin to people who decide to have sex but not children both are as unnatural as each other yet another non sequitur sex is an evolutionary function that exists for procreation that it is also recreation is incidental that homosexuals don t procreate means that sex is only recreation and nothing more they serve no evolutionary purpose i refer you to the bonobos a species of primate as closeley related to humans as chimpanzees that is very closely they have sex all the time homosexual as well as heterosexual when the group finds food they have sex before the go to sleep at night they have sex after they escape from or fight off prdators they have sex sex serves a very important social function above and beyond reproduction in this species a species closely related to humans there is some indication that sex performs a social function in humans as well but even if not this shows that such a function is not impossible sincerely ray ingles ingles engin umich edu the meek can have the earth the rest of us are going to the stars robert a heinlein
alt.atheism	vonnegut atheism yesterday i got the chance to hear kurt vonnegut speak at the university of new hampshire vonnegut succeeded isaac asimov as the honorary head of the american humanist association vonnegut is an atheist and so was asimov before asimov s funeral vonnegut stood up and said about asimov he s in heaven now which ignited uproarious laughter in the room from the people he was speaking to around the time of the funeral it s the funniest thing i could have possibly said to a room full of humanists vonnegut said at yesterday s lecture if vonnegut comes to speak at your university i highly recommend going to see him even if you ve never read any of his novels in my opinion he s the greatest living humorist greatest living humanist humorist as well peace dana
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes i should clarify what muslims usually mean when they say muslim in general anyone who calls themselves a muslim and does not do or outwardly profess something in clear contradiction with the essential teachings of islam is considered to be a muslim thus one who might do things contrary to islam through ignorance for example does not suddenly not become a muslim if one knowingly transgresses islamic teachings and essential principles though then one does leave islam you and mr bobby really need to sit down and decide what exactly islam is before posting here according to zlumber one is not a muslim when one is doing evil a muslin can do no evil according to him one who does evil is suffering from temporary athiesm now would the members who claim to be muslims get their stories straight satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	re request for support in article apr sei cmu edu dpw sei cmu edu david wood writes if you must respond to one of his articles include within it something similar to the following please answer the questions posed to you in the charley challenges agreed satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	re bill conner in article c y mlr darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes could you explain what any of this pertains to is this a position statement on something or typing practice and why are you using my name do you think this relates to anything i ve said and if so what bill could you explain what any of the above pertains to is this a position statement on something or typing practice satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts in article jvigneau apr cs ulowell edu jvigneau cs ulowell edu joe vigneau writes if anything the bsa has taught me i don t know tolerance or something before i met this guy i thought all gays were faries so the bsa has taught me to be an antibigot i could give much the same testimonial about my experience as a scout back in the s the issue wasn t gays but the principles were the same thanks for a well put testimonial stan krieger and his kind who think this discussion doesn t belong here and his intolerance is the only acceptable position in scouting should take notice the bsa has been hijacked by the religious right but some of the core values have survived in spite of the leadership and some scouts and former scouts haven t given up seeing a testimonial like this reminds me that scouting is still worth fighting for on a cautionary note you must realize that if your experience with this camp leader was in the bsa you may be putting him at risk by publicizing it word could leak out to the bsa gestapo bill mayne
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts c wainwright eczcaw mips nott ac uk wrote i jim i always thought that homophobe was only a word used at act up rallies i didn t beleive real people used it let s see if we agree on the term s definition a homophobe is one who actively and militantly attacks homosexuals because he is actually a latent homosexual who uses his hostility to conceal his true orientation since everyone who disapproves of or condemns homosexuality is a homophobe your implication is clear it must necessarily follow that all men are latent homosexuals or bisexual at the very least crap crap crap crap crap a definition of any type of phobe comes from phobia an irrational fear of hence a homophobe not only in act up meetings the word is apparently in general use now or perhaps it isn t in the bible wouldst thou prefer if i were to communicate with thou in bilespeak does an arachnophobe have an irrational fear of being a spider does an agoraphobe have an irrational fear of being a wide open space do you understand english obviously someone who has phobia will react to it they will do their best to avoid it and if that is not possible they will either strike out or run away or do gaybashings occur because of natural processes people who definately have homophobia will either run away from gay people or cause them or themselves violence isn t that what i said what are you taking issue with here your remarks are merely parenthetical to mine and add nothing useful it would seem odd if homosexuality had any evolutionary function other than limiting population growth since evolution only occurs when the members of one generation pass along their traits to subsequent generations homosexuality is an evolutionary deadend if i take your usage of the term homophobe in the sense you seem to intend then all men are really homosexual and evolution of our species at least is going nowhere so every time a man has sex with a woman they intend to produce children hmm no wonder the world is overpopulated obviously you keep to the monty python song every sperm is sacred and if as you say it has a purpose as a means to limit population growth then it is by your own arguement natural consider the context i m talking about an evolutionary function one of the most basic requirements of evolution is that members of a species procreate those who don t have no purpose in that context another point is that if the offspring of each generation is to survive the participation of both parents is necessary a family must exist since homosexuals do not reproduce they cannot constitute a family since the majority of humankind is part of a family homosexuality is an evolutionary abberation contrary to nature if you will well if that is true by your own arguements homosexuals would have vanished years ago due to non procreation also the parent from single parent families should put the babies out in the cold now cos they must by your arguement die by your argument homosexuality is genetically determined as to your second point you prove again that you have no idea what context means i am talking about evolution the preservation of the species the fundamental premise of the whole process but it gets worse since the overwhelming majority of people actually prefer a heterosexual relationship homosexuality is a social abberation as well the homosexual eschews the biological imperative to reproduce and then the social imperative to form and participate in the most fundamental social element the family but wait there s more read the above i expect you to have at least ten children by now with the family growing these days sex is less to do with procreation admittedly without it there would be no one but more to do with pleasure in pre pill and pre condom days if you had sex there was the chance of producing children these days is just ain t true people can decide whether or not to have children and when soon they will be able to choose it s sex c but that s another arguement so it s more of a lifestyle decision again by your arguement since homosexuals can not or choose not to reproduce they must be akin to people who decide to have sex but not children both are as unnatural as each other yet another non sequitur sex is an evolutionary function that exists for procreation that it is also recreation is incidental that homosexuals don t procreate means that sex is only recreation and nothing more they serve no evolutionary purpose since homosexuals have come out the closet and have convinced some policy makers that they have civil rights they are now claiming that their sexuality is a preference a life style an orientation a choice that should be protected by law now if homosexuality is a mere choice and if it is both contrary to nature and anti social then it is a perverse choice they have even less credibility than before they became prominent people are people are people who are you to tell anyone else how to live their life are you god tm if so fancy a date here s pretty obvious dodge do you really think you ve said anything or do you just feel obligated to respond to every statement i am not telling anyone anything i am demonstrating that there are arguments against the practice of homosexuality providing it s a merely an alternate lifestlye that are not homophobic that one can reasonably call it perverse in a context even a atheist can understand i realize of course that this comes dangerously close to establishing a value and that atheists are compelled to object on that basis but if you are to be consistent you have no case in this regard to characterize any opposition to homosexuality as homophobic is to ignore some very compelling arguments against the legitimization of the homosexual life style but since the charge is only intended to intimidate it s really just demogoguery and not to be taken seriously fact is jim there are far more persuasive arguments for suppressing homosexuality than those given but consider this a start again crap all your arguments are based on outdated ideals likewise the bible would any honest christian condemn the ten generations spawned by a bastard to eternal damnation or someone who crushes his penis either accidently or not both are in deuteronomy i m sure your comment pertains to something but you ve disguised it so well i can t see what where did i mention ideals out dated or otherwise your arguments are very reactionary do you have anything at all to contribute as to why homosexuals should be excluded from participation in scouting the reasons are the same as those used to restrict them from teaching by their own logic homosexuals are deviates social and biological since any adult is a role model for a child it is incumbent on the parent to ensure that the child be isolated from those who would do the child harm in this case harm means primarily social though that could be extended easily enough you show me anyone who has sex in a way that everyone would describe as normal and will take of my hat puma baseball cap to you one man s meat is another man s poison what has this got to do with anything would you pick a single point that you find offensive and explain your objections i would really like to believe that you can discuss this issue intelligibly bill
alt.atheism	fluids vs liquids west next wam umd edu brian west writes deleted a similar analogy can be made with glass for those of you who don t know glass is a liquid go ask your science teacher and does flow deleted if your science teacher tells you glass is a liquid try to get a different science teacher b glass is a supercooled fluid it is not a liquid except at very high temperatures the definition of liquid includes readily takes the form of its container let s try to be more accurate here we don t want people to think we re creationists now do we uucp uunet tektronix sail mikec or m cranford uunet tektronix sail labs tek com mikec principal troll arpa mikec sail labs tek com relay cs net resident skeptic csnet mikec sail labs tek com teklabs tektronix
alt.atheism	re gospel dating in article c vyfu jj darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes keith m ryan kmr po cwru edu wrote wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence if you state that one of the books in your room is blue i certainly do not need as much evidence to believe than if you were to claim that there is a two headed leapard in your bed and i don t mean a male lover in a leotard keith if the issue is what is truth then the consequences of whatever proposition argued is irrelevent if the issue is what are the consequences if such and such is true then truth is irrelevent which is it to be i disagree every proposition needs a certain amount of evidence and support before one can believe it there are a miriad of factors for each individual as we are all different we quite obviously require different levels of evidence as one pointed out one s history is important while in fussr one may not believe a comrade who states that he owns five pairs of blue jeans one would need more evidence than if one lived in the united states the only time such a statement here would raise an eyebrow in the us is if the individual always wear business suits etc the degree of the effect upon the world and the strength of the claim also determine the amount of evidence necessary when determining the level of evidence one needs it is most certainly relevent what the consequences of the proposition are if the consequences of a proposition is irrelvent please explain why one would not accept the electro magnetic force of attraction between two charged particles is inversely proportional to the cube of their distance apart remember if the consequences of the law are not relevent then we can not use experimental evidence as a disproof if one of the consequences of the law is an incongruency between the law and the state of affairs or an incongruency between this law and any other natural law they are irrelevent when theorizing about the truth of the law given that any consequences of a proposition is irrelvent including the consequence of self contradiction or contradiction with the state of affiars how are we ever able to judge what is true or not let alone find the truth by the way what is truth please define before inserting it in the conversation please explain what truth or truth is i do think that anything is ever known for certain even if there is a truth we could never possibly know if it were i find the concept to be meaningless satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	re is morality constant was re biblical rape in article c w pv jxd darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes there are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread that are a little confusing an atheist is one for whom all things can be understood as processes of nature exclusively there is no need for any recourse to divnity to describe or explain anything there is no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by physics chemistry biology etc everything is random nothing is determnined this posts contains too many fallacies to respond too the abolishment of divinity requires the elimination of freewill you have not shown this you have not even attempted to however the existance of an omniscience being does eliminate freewill in mortals posted over five months ago no one has been able to refute it nor give any reasonable reasons against it satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	re gospel dating in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes deletion i cannot see any evidence for the v b which the cynics in this group would ever accept as for the second it is the foundation of the religion anyone who claims to have seen the risen jesus back in the day period is a believer and therefore is discounted by those in this group since these are all ancients anyway one again to choose to dismiss the whole thing the third is as much a metaphysical relationship as anything else even those who agree to it have argued at length over what it means so again i don t see how evidence is possible no cookies charlie the claims that jesus have been seen are discredited as extraordinary claims that don t match their evidence in this case it is for one that the gospels cannot even agree if it was jesus who has been seen further there are zillions of other spook stories and one would hardly consider others even in a religious context to be some evidence of a resurrection there have been more elaborate arguments made but it looks as if they have not passed your post filtering i thus interpret the extraordinary claims claim as a statement that the speaker will not accept any evidence on the matter it is no evidence in the strict meaning if there was actual evidence it would probably be part of it but the says nothing about the claims charlie i have seen invisible pink unicorns by your standards we have evidence for ipus now benedikt
alt.atheism	re contradictions in article c oys clj austin ibm com yoder austin ibm com stuart r yoder writes then what would it have to do with in the universe you theists cannot understand that inside the universe and outside the universe are two different places put god outside the universe and you subtract from it the ability to interact with the inside of the universe put it inside the universe and you impose the rules of physics on it god is outside the universe things outside the universe do not have the ability to interact with the inside of the universe therefore god cannot interact inside the universe has no basis whatsoever you seem to have positive knowledge about this is a corrallary of the negation of would contridict although we do not have a complete model of the physical rules governing the inside of the universe we expect that there are no contradictory events likely to destroy the fabric of modern physics on the other hand your notion of an omnipotent omniscient and infinitely benevolent god is not subject to physical laws you attempt to explain this away by describing it as being outside of them beyond measurement to me beyond measurement means it can have no measurable effect on reality so it cannot interact ergo your god is irrelevant god is beyond measure beyond measurement means it can have no measurable effect on reality therefore god cannot have a measurable effect on reality has no basis whatsoever is a corrallary of the negation of would contradict satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	ontology was benediktine metaphysics in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes if it is contradictory it cannot exist contradictory is a property of language if i correct this to things defined by contradictory language do not exist no need to correct it it stands as it is said i will object to definitions as reality if you then amend it to things described by contradictory language do not exist then we ve come to something which is plainly false failures in description are merely failures in description you miss the point entirely things defined by contradictory language do not exist though something existing might be meant conclusions drawn from the description are wrong unless there is the possibility to find the described and draw conclusions from direct knowledge of the described then another possibility is to drop the contradictory part but that implies that one can trust the concept as presented and that one has not got to doubt the source of it as well i m not an objectivist remember neither am i but either things are directly sensed which includes some form of modelling by the way or they are used in modelling using something contradictive in modelling is not approved of wonder why we remain with the question if something contradictory can be sensed as contradictory an important point is that either one manages to resolve the contradictions or one is forced not to use or to refer to the contradictory part in drawing conclusions or one will fall in the garbage in garbage out trap benedikt
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie references deleted to move this to a new thread in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article phkf inn p dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes rushdie is however as i understand a muslim the fact that he s a british citizen does not preclude his being muslim rushdie was an atheist to use local terminology not to put words in his mouth at the time of writing tsv and at the time of the fatwa in february well if he was born muslim i am fairly certain he was then he is muslim until he explicitly renounces islam so far as i know he has never explicitly renounced islam though he may have been in extreme doubt about the existence of god being muslim is a legal as well as intellectual issue according to islam to put it as simply as possible i am not a muslim i do not accept the charge of apostacy because i have never in my adult life affirmed any belief and what one has not affirmed one can not be said to have apostasized from the islam i know states clearly that there can be no coercion in matters of religion the many muslims i respect would be horrified by the idea that they belong to their faith purely by virtue of birth and that a person who freely chose not to be a muslim could therefore be put to death salman rushdie in good faith god satan paradise and hell all vanished one day in my fifteenth year when i quite abruptly lost my faith and afterwards to prove my new found atheism i bought myself a rather tasteless ham sandwich and so partook for the first time of the forbidden flesh of the swine no thunderbolt arrived to strike me down from that day to this i have thought of myself as a wholly seculat person salman rushdie in god we trust i think the rushdie affair has discredited islam more in my eyes than khomeini i know there are fanatics and fringe elements in all religions but even apparently moderate muslims have participated or refused to distance themselves from the witch hunt against rushdie yes i think this is true but there khomenei s motivations are quite irrelevant to the issue the fact of the matter is that rushdie made false statements fiction i know but where is the line between fact and fiction about the life of mohammad only a functional illiterate with absolutely no conception of the nature of the novel could think such a thing i ll accept it reluctantly from mobs in pakistan but not from you what is presented in the fictional dream of a demented character cannot by the wildest stretch of the imagination be considered a reflection on the actual mohammad what s worse the novel doesn t present the mahound mohammed character in any worse light than secular histories of islam in particular there is no lewd misrepresentation of his life or that of his wives that is why few people rush to his defense he s considered an absolute fool for his writings in the satanic verses don t hold back he s considered an apostate and a blasphemer however it s not for his writing in the satanic verses but for what people have accepted as a propagandistic version of what is contained in that book i have yet to find one single muslim who has convinced me that they have read the book some have initially claimed to have done so but none has shown more knowledge of the book than a superficial newsweek story might impart and all have made factual misstatements about events in the book if you wish to understand the reasons behind this as well has the origin of the concept of the satanic verses see the penguin paperback by rafiq zakariyah called mohammad and the quran i ll keep an eye out for it i have a counter proposal i suggest that you see the viking hardcover by salman rushdie called the satanic verses perhaps then you ll understand jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article c twso m hq ileaf com mukesh hq ileaf com mukesh prasad writes in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article p v ainn e matt ksu ksu edu strat matt ksu ksu edu steve davis writes bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes the earth is evil because satan rules over it this is a new one to me i guess it s been a while since a witness bothered with me are they implying that satan is omniscient you might try tricking them into saying that satan is all knowing and then use that statement to show them how their beliefs are self contradictary no satan is not omniscient but he does hold dominion over the earth according to christian theology note not to be confused with jw s theology what are the standard theologies on who what created satan and why orthodox christian theology states that god created lucifer satan along with the other angels presumably because he wanted beings to celebrate glorify existence and life and thereby god along with him actually the whys and wherefores of god s motivations for creating the angels are not a big issue within christian theology but god created lucifer with a perfect nature and gave him along with the other angels free moral will lucifer was a high angel perhaps the highest with great authority it seems that his greatness caused him to begin to take pride in himself and desire to be equal to or greater than god he forgot his place as a created being he exalted himself above god and thereby evil and sin entered creation actually the story goes that lucifer refused to bow before man as god commanded him to lucifer was devoted to god oh yeah there is nothing in genesis that says the snake was anything more than a snake well a talking one had legs at the time too i don t think pointing out contradictions in stories is the best way to show the error in theology if they think a supernatural entity kicked the first humans out of paradise because they bit into a fruit that gave them special powers well they might not respond well to reason and logic brian
alt.atheism	re ancient islamic rituals in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes there has been some discussion on the pros and cons about sex outside of marriage where is the evidence for my opinions at the moment there are just generalities i can cite for example i read that in the th century the percentage of youth and people in general who suffer from depression has been steadily climbing in western societies probably what i was reading referred particularly to the usa similarly one can detect a trend towards greater occurrence of sex outside of marriage in this century in western societies particularly with the sexual revolution of the s but even before that i think otherwise the sexual revolution of the s would not have been possible particularly with the gradual weakening of christianity and consequently christian moral teachings against sex outside of marriage i propose that these two trends greater level of general depression in society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being a prime cause of the former i cannot provide any evidence beyond this at this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable to me and i request that people ponder upon it fred rice a muslim giving his point of view darice yoyo cc monash edu au i think this is a big leap sex depression one example is myself where no sex depression but seriously promiscuity is on a decline depression is not and it might be more reasonable to say depression promiscuity i think depression is more likely to come from emotional problems relationships family job friends and promiscuity is used as an escape since i see marriage as a civil and religious bond rather than an emotional bond i don t see a problem with sex before not outside of marriage so long as you have the same commitment and devotion as what is expected from a married couple of course this is just my opinion brian
alt.atheism	re yeah right in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes and what about that revelation thing charley if you re talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation well it s obviously a risk one takes i see it is not rational but it is intellectual does madness qualify as intellectual engagement too many people say that the concept of metaphysical and religious knowledge is contradictive i m not an objectivist so i m not particularly impressed with problems of conceptualization the problem in this case is at least as bad as that of trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary experience one can get some rough understanding but the language is from the perspective of ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the perspective of what s being described rather inexact to be charitable exactly why science uses mathematics qm representation in natural language is not supposed to replace the elaborate representation in mathematical terminology nor is it supposed to be the truth as opposed to the representation of gods or religions in ordinary language admittedly not every religion says so but a fancy side effect of their inept representations are the eternal hassles between religions and qm allows for making experiments that will lead to results that will be agreed upon as being similar show me something similar in religion an analogous situation supposedly obtains in metaphysics the problem is that the better descriptive language is not available with the effect that the models presented are useless and one can argue that the other way around namely that the only reason metaphysics still flourish is because it makes no statements that can be verified or falsified showing that it is bogus and in case it holds reliable information can you show how you establish that this word reliable is essentially meaningless in the context unless you can show how reliability can be determined haven t you read the many posts about what reliability is and how it can be acheived respectively determined benedikt
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes date sat apr gmt from fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au in p ivt cfj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes should we british go around blowing up skyscrapers next i don t know if you are doing so but it seems you are implying that the person accused of blowing up the wtc in ny actually did it and that islamic teachings have something to do with blowing up the wtc wtc world trade centre which was the building that was blown up i think okay to make some comments the person has only been accused innocent until proven guilty remember secondly there seem to be some holes in his accusation that i read about for instance if they guy used that particular van to blow up the building and then to go back and claim his deposit back afterwards he must be incredibly stupid perhaps salamen was one of those uneducated muslims we hear so much about nevertheless he was apparently smart enough to put together a very sophisticated bomb it doesn t seem to fit together somehow actually salameh was not the only person involved the other fellow was a chemical engineer working for allied signal who had specifically studied explosive devices in school believe it or not we actually allow radical muslim types to study things like this in our universities so much for the price of freedom from what i read the other fellow told salameh how to put it together over the phone the bomb was supposedly some sort of sophisticated type so to put a i assume complicated sophisticated bomb together from instructions over the phone one must need some brains i would expect despite this there have already been many attacks and threats against mosques and muslims in the united states as a consequence of his accusation i have read o k now please tell us where this is happening i live in the u s and i have heard very little about these mosque attacks there are many mosques in houston texas and i would like to know what is going on so i can verify this or is the great jewish media conspiracy keeping us from knowing about this in the u s we heard about the mosque attacks during the desert storm venture so why is it so quiet now maybe it is localized to new jersey i read this in an article in the australian muslim times the newspaper weekly of the australian muslim community if this is true perhaps one of the muslims based in north america if they see this posting can elaborate islamic teachings teach against harming the innocent in the qur an it explicitly teaches against harming innocents even in times of war the blowing up of the wtc and harming innocents is therefore in blatant contradiction to islamic teachings this means absolutely nothing plenty of people commit violence while following what they think are valid religious principles i have seen people post many things here from the koran which could be misinterpreted if that is the explanation you wish to use by an uneducated muslim to allow them to harm idolators and unbelievers the first thing every muslim says is that no muslim could have done that because islam teaches against harming innocents and we are supposed to take you word that it never happens what do you think is the consequence does allah strike them down before the alleged violence occurs of course not muslims commit the violent act and then everyone hides behind verses in the koran we re pretty hip to that trick and i even doubt that it will come up in the trials my defense is that i am muslim and islam teaches me not to harm the innocent therefore the people who were killed must not have been innocent sure we set off the bomb your honor but you must remember sir i am a muslim allah is all powerful allah would not have allowed this are you insulting my religion great defense eh just admit that there are some incredibly stupid violent muslims in the world and stop hiding from that fact it does no one any good to deny it it only makes the more reasonable muslims look like they are protecting the bad ones can you see that i don t deny this fact the thrust of my argument here is that a salameh is according to us law innocent as he has not been found guilty in a court of law as his guilt has not been established it is wrong for people to make postings based on this assumption b islam teaches us not to harm innocents if muslims who perhaps have not realized that islam teaches this perform such actions it is not because of the teachings of islam but rather in spite of and in contradiction to the teachings of islam this is an important distinction i should clarify what muslims usually mean when they say muslim in general anyone who calls themselves a muslim and does not do or outwardly profess something in clear contradiction with the essential teachings of islam is considered to be a muslim thus one who might do things contrary to islam through ignorance for example does not suddenly not become a muslim if one knowingly transgresses islamic teachings and essential principles though then one does leave islam the term muslim is to be contrasted with mu min which means true believer however whether a muslim is in reality a mu min is something known only by god and perhaps that person himself so you will not find the term mu min used very much by muslims in alt atheism because it is not known to anybody except myself and god whether i for example am a true believer or not for example i could just be putting on a show here and in reality believe something opposite to what i write here without anyone knowing thus when we say muslims we mean all those who outwardly profess to follow islam whether in practice they might in ignorance transgress islamic teachings by muslim we do not necessarily mean mu min or true believer in islam fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re gospel dating mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes david wood writes extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence more seriously this is just a high falutin way of saying i don t believe what you re saying are you making a meta argument here in any case you are wrong think of those invisible pink unicorns also the existence if jesus is not an extradinary claim i was responding to the historical accuracy of biblical claims of which the existence of jesus is only one and one that was not even mentioned in my post you may want to complain that the miracles attributed to him do constitute such claims and i won t argue otherwise but that is a different issue wrong that was exactly the issue go back and read the context included within my post and you ll see what i mean now that i ve done you the kindness of responding to your questions please do the same for me answer the charley challenges your claim that they are of the did not did so variety is a dishonest dodge that i feel certain fools only one person dave wood
alt.atheism	re and another thing mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes keith ryan writes you will ignore any criticism of your logic or any possible incongruenties in your stance you will not answer any questions on the validity of any opinion and or facts you state when i have to start saying that s not what i said and the response is did so there s no reason to continue if someone is not going to argue with my version of my position then they cannot be argued with but of course your version of your position has been included in the charley challenges so your claim above is a flat out lie further only last week you claimed that you might not answer the challenges because you were turned off by included text so which is it do you want your context included in my articles or not come to think of it this contradiction has the makings of a new entry in the next challenges post by the way i ve kept every bloody thing that you ve written related to this thread and will be only too pleased to re post any of it to back my position you seem to have forgotten that you leave an electronic paper trail on the net this is the usual theist approach no matter how many times a certain argument has been disproven shown to be non applicable or non sequitur they keep cropping up time after time speaking of non sequiturs this has little to do with what i just said and have some sauce for the goose some of the disproof is fallacies repeated over and over such as the law of nature argument someone posted recently now now let s not change the subject wouldn t it be best to finish up the thread in question before you begin new ones dave wood
alt.atheism	periodic post of charley challenges with additions new in this version challenge plus an addendum summarizing charley s responses to date this is a posting made periodically in an attempt to encourage charley wingate to address direct challenges to his evidently specious claims i ll continue to re post periodically until he answers them publicly indicates that he won t answer them stops posting to alt atheism the alt atheism community tells me to stop or i get totally bored i apologize for the somewhat juvenile nature of this approach but i m at a loss to figure out another way to crack his intransigence and seeming intellectual dishonesty this is re post charley i can t help but notice that you have still failed to provide answers to substantive questions that have been raised in response to your previous posts i submit that you don t answer them because you cannot answer them without running afoul of your own logic and i once again challenge you to prove me wrong to make the task as easy for you as possible i ll present concise re statements of some of the questions that you have failed to answer in the hope that you may address them one at a time for all to see should you fail to answer again within a reasonable time period i will re post this article with suitable additions and deletions at such time that i notice a post by you on another topic i will repeat this procedure until you either address the outstanding challenges or you cease to post to this newsgroup i would like to apologize in advance if you have answered any of these questions previously and your answer missed my notice if you can be kind enough to re post or e mail such articles i will be only too pleased to publicly rescind the challenge in question and remove it from this list now to the questions after claiming that all atheists fit into neat psychological patterns that you proposed then semi retracting that claim by stating that you weren t referring to all atheists i asked you to name some atheists who you feel don t fit your patterns to show that you indeed were not referring to all atheists that you are aware of you failed to do so please do so now question can you name any a a posters who do not fit into your stereotype here is the context for the question this is not true for everyone on this board and you are out of line in assuming that it is you however deleted the text further along where i said that i didn t mean to imply that everybody s experience was along the same lines whether or not you mean to make such implications you do so repeatedly allow me to approach the issue from another viewpoint can you name those atheists that you ve come across who do not fit into the patterns that you theorize you have taken umbrage to statements to the effect that senses and reason are all we have to go by and when pressed you have implied that we have an alternative called revelation i have repeatedly asked you to explain what revelation is and how one can both experience and interpret revelation without doing so via our senses and reason you failed to do so please do so now question can you explain what is revelation and how one can experience and interpret it without using senses and inherent reasoning here is the context for the question revelation is not reason and if we do have revelation then reasoning is not all we have first show me that revelation exists second if revelation is not perceived through the senses how exactly is it perceived according to my webster s revelation is an act of revealing or communicating divine truth now tell me how such a thing can be revealed communicated other than via the senses tell me how you can interpret this revelation other than with reason that is using your brain to interpret what you are sensing when i say there is no way for a human being to interface with the universe other than via the senses as interpreted by reason your brain it is because this is the simple truth if you have another mechanism of interface by all means share it with us then later you cannot escape the fact that our entire interface with the universe is our senses and our reason period again this is indefensible no it is simple truth i challenge you to show me otherwise then later few mystics will agree to this assertion and the common defense of redefining senses to absorb for instance mystical experiences is begs the question of whether some senses are better than others i allow you the broadest definition of senses to make things easier for you now show me that mystical experiences exist remember you aren t allowed to go by testimony of others e g mystics since you have dismissed my testimony as unreliable you know tainted by my own bias further once these mystical thingies are absorbed show me evidence that a human can recognize and respond to them short of interpretation via that person s reasoning capabilities i challenge you to show me these things if you cannot do so you might as well give up the fight then later let me reiterate you have not explained your interpretation of your experiences so it is not possible for me to have attacked them in point of fact i specifically challenged you to explain this revelation stuff that you were talking about and i note for the record that you appear to have declined my challenge what is it how is it sensed how is it interpreted and how does this sensing and interpretation occur without the conduit of our senses and reasoning abilities you have answered none of these questions that go straight to the heart of your claims if you can t answer them your claims are entirely specious you have stated that all claims to dispassionate analysis made by a a posters are unverifiable and fantastical i asked you to identify one such claim that i have made you have failed to do so please do so now question have i made any claims at all that are unverifiable and fantastical if so please repeat them here is the context for the question i must thank david wood a most sensitive and intelligent if wrong posting then later likewise the reference to unverifiable fantastical claims represents fairly accurately my reaction to all of the claims to dispassionate analysis that are repeated in this group give me your address and i ll be pleased to send you a dictionary failing that can you name one claim that i have made that is in any sense unverifiable or fantastical i demand that you retract this statement if you cannot offer up evidence if you follow your usual pattern of ignoring the challenge then you are simply an asshole first you dismissed claims by atheists that they became atheists as a result of reason then later you stated that if one accepted the axioms of reason that one couldn t help but become atheist i asked you to explain the contradiction your only response was a statement that the question was incoherent an opinion not shared by others that i have asked be they atheist or theist you have failed to answer the question please do so now question do you retract your claim that a a posters have not become atheists as a result of reason despite their testimony to that effect if you don t retract that claim do you retract the subsequent claim that acceptance of the axioms of reason inevitably result in atheism here is the context for the question first quote we have here a bunch of people who claim that their position is based on reason it is up to atheists to prove it to me then second quote but i do not see how one can accept these axioms and not end up with an atheistic point of view first you claimed that you would probably not answer these challenges because they contained too much in the way of included text from previous posts later you implied that you wouldn t respond because i was putting words in your mouth please clarify this seeming contradiction question do you prefer to respond to challenges that include context from your own posts or that i paraphrase your positions in order to avoid included text here is the context for the question first you said my ordinary rules are that i don t read articles over over lines or articles in which there is nothing but included text on the first screen these are not rules of morality but practicality then later if someone is not going to argue with my version of my position then they cannot be argued with as usual your responses are awaited with anticipation dave wood p s for the record below is a compilation of charley s responses to these challenges to date this makes no sense to me at all it gives the appearance either of utter incoherence or of answering some question of mr wood s imagination mr wood i do not subscribe to the opinion that a gauntlet thrown down on the net requires any response whatsoever at some point i might read and respond to your article and then again i might not my ordinary rules are that i don t read articles over over lines or articles in which there is nothing but included text on the first screen these are not rules of morality but practicality i left out something else i don t respond to utmost on my list of things to avoid are arguments about the arguments meta arguments as some call them when i have to start saying that s not what i said and the response is did so there s no reason to continue if someone is not going to argue with my version of my position then they cannot be argued with
alt.atheism	re political atheists halat pooh bears jim halat writes i think an objective morality does exist but that most flavors of morality are only approximations to it once again a natural or objective morality is fairly easily defined as long as you have a goal in mind that is what is the purpose of this morality maybe i m not quite getting what you mean by this but i think objective morality is an oxymoron by definition it seems any goal oriented issue like this is subjective by nature i don t get how you re using the word objective but the goal need not be a subjective one for instance the goal of natural morality is the propogation of a species perhaps it wasn t really until the more intelligent animals came along that some revisions to this were necessary intelligent animals have different needs than the others and hence a morality suited to them must be a bit more complicated than the law of the jungle i don t think that self actualization is so subjective as you might think and by objectivity i am assuming that the ideals of any such system could be carried out completely keith
alt.atheism	request for support i have a request for those who would like to see charley wingate respond to the charley challenges and judging from my e mail there appear to be quite a few of you it is clear that mr wingate intends to continue to post tangential or unrelated articles while ingoring the challenges themselves between the last two re postings of the challenges i noted perhaps a dozen or more posts by mr wingate none of which answered a single challenge it seems unmistakable to me that mr wingate hopes that the questions will just go away and he is doing his level best to change the subject given that this seems a rather common net theist tactic i would like to suggest that we impress upon him our desire for answers in the following manner ignore any future articles by mr wingate that do not address the challenges until he answers them or explictly announces that he refuses to do so or if you must respond to one of his articles include within it something similar to the following please answer the questions posed to you in the charley challenges really i m not looking to humiliate anyone here i just want some honest answers you wouldn t think that honesty would be too much to ask from a devout christian would you nevermind that was a rhetorical question dave wood
alt.atheism	re gospel dating in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes assuming you are presenting it accurately i don t see how this argument really leads to any firm conclusion the material in john i m not sure exactly what is referred to here but i ll take for granted the similarity to the matt luke q material is different hence one could have almost any relationship between the two right up to john getting it straight from jesus mouth no the argument says john has known q ie a codified version of the logia and not the original assuming that there has been one it has weaknesses of course like that john might have known the original yet rather referred to q in his text or that the logia were given in a codified version in the first place the argument alone does not allow a firm conclusion but it fits well into the dating usually given for the gospels we are talking date of texts here not the age of the authors the usual explanation for the time order of mark matthew and luke does not consider their respective ages it says matthew has read the text of mark and luke that of matthew and probably that of mark the version of the usual theory i have heard has matthew and luke independently relying on mark and q one would think that if luke relied on matthew we wouldn t have the grating inconsistencies in the geneologies for one thing not necessarily luke may have trusted the version he knew better than the version given by matthew improving on matthew would give a motive for instance as far as i know the theory that luke has known matthew is based on a statistical analysis of the texts as it is assumed that john knew the content of luke s text the evidence for that is not overwhelming admittedly this is the part that is particularly new to me if it were possible that you could point me to a reference i d be grateful yep but it will take another day or so to get the source i hope your german is good enough unfortunately i haven t got the info at hand it was i think in the late s or early s and it was possibly as old as ce when they are from about why do they shed doubt on the order on putting john after the rest of the three because it closes up the gap between supposed writing and the existing copy quit a bit the further away from the original the more copies can be written and therefore survival becomes more probable i still do not see how copies from allow to change the dating of john that john was a disciple is not generally accepted the style and language together with the theology are usually used as counterargument i m not really impressed with the theology argument but i m really pointing this out as an if and as i pointed out earlier one cannot make these arguments about i peter i see no reason not to accept it as an authentic letter yes but an if gives only possibilities and no evidence the authencity of many letters is still discussed it looks as if conclusions about them are not drawn because some pet dogmas of the churches would probably fall with them as well one step and one generation removed is bad even in our times compare that to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies the best analogy would be reporters talking to the participants which is not so bad well rather like some newsletter of a political party reporting from the big meeting not necessarily wrong but certainly bad in other words one does not know what the original of mark did look like and arguments based on mark are pretty weak but the statement of divinity is not in that section and in any case it s agreed that the most important epistles predate mark yes but the accuracy of their tradition is another problem question are there letters not from paul and predating mark claiming the divinity of jesus benedikt
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution in article ba c ac i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article pq tinn lp senator bedfellow mit edu bobs thnext mit edu robert singleton writes deletion i will argue that your latter statement i believe that no gods exist does rest upon faith that is if you are making a positive statement that no gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying i don t know and therefore don t believe in them and don t not believe in then weak atheism once again to not believe in god is different than saying i believe that god does not exist i still maintain the position even after reading the faqs that strong atheism requires faith no it in the way it is usually used in my view you are saying here that driving a car requires faith that the car drives i m not saying this at all it requires no faith on my part to say the car drives because i ve seen it drive i ve done more than at in fact i ve actually driven it now what does require some faith is the belief that my senses give an accurate representation of what s out there but there is no evidence pro or con for the existence or non existence of god see what i have to say below on this for me it is a conclusion and i have no more faith in it than i have in the premises and the argument used sorry if i remain skeptical i don t believe it s entirely a conclusion that you have seen no evidence that there is a god is correct neither have i but lack of evidence for the existence of something is in no way evidence for the non existence of something the creationist have a similar mode of argumentation in which if they disprove evolution the establish creation you personally have never seen a neutrino before but they exist the pink unicorn analogy breaks down and is rather naive i have a scientific theory that explains the appearance of animal life evolution when i draw the conclusion that pink unicorns don t exist because i haven t seen them this conclusion has it s foundation in observation and theory a pink unicorn if it did exist would be qualitatively similar to other known entities that is to say since there is good evidence that all life on earth has evolved from more primitive ancestors these pink unicorns would share a common anscestory with horses and zebras and such god however has no such correspondence with anything imo there is no physical frame work of observation to draw any conclusions from but first let me say the following we might have a language problem here in regards to faith and existence i as a christian maintain that god does not exist to exist means to have being in space and time god does not have being god is being kierkegaard once said that god does not exist he is eternal with this said i feel it s rather pointless to debate the so called existence of god and that is not what i m doing here i believe that god is the source and ground of being when you say that god does not exist i also accept this statement but we obviously mean two different things by it however in what follows i will use the phrase the existence of god in it s usual sense and this is the sense that i think you are using it i would like a clarification upon what you mean by the existence of god no that s a word game i disagree with you profoundly on this i haven t defined god as existence in fact i haven t defined god but this might be getting off the subject although if you think it s relevant we can come back to it further saying god is existence is either a waste of time existence is already used and there is no need to replace it by god or you are implying more with it in which case your definition and your argument so far are incomplete making it a fallacy you are using wrong categories here or perhaps you misunderstand what i m saying i m making no argument what so ever and offering no definition so there is no fallacy i m not trying to convince you of anything i believe and that rests upon faith and it is inappropriate to apply the category of logic in this realm unless someone tells you that they can logically prove god or that they have evidence or then the use of logic to disprove their claims if fine and necessary btw an incomplete argument is not a fallacy some things are not even wrong deletion one can never prove that god does or does not exist when you say that you believe god does not exist and that this is an opinion based upon observation i will have to ask what observtions are you refering to there are no observations pro or con that are valid here in establishing a positive belief deletion where does that follow aren t observations based on the assumption that something exists i don t follow you here certainly one can make observations of things that they didn t know existed i still maintain that one cannot use observation to infer that god does not exist such a positive assertion requires a leap and wouldn t you say there is a level of definition that the assumption god is is meaningful if not i would reject that concept anyway so where is your evidence for that god is is meaningful at some level once again you seem to completely misunderstand me i have no evidence that god is is meaningful at any level maybe such a response as you gave just comes naturally to you because so many people try to run their own private conception of god down your throat i however am not doing this i am arguing one and only one thing that to make a positive assertion about something for which there can in principle be no evidence for or against requires a leap it requires faith i am as you would say a theist however there is a form of atheism that i can respect but it must be founded upon honesty benedikt bob singleton bobs thnext mit edu
alt.atheism	re second law was albert sabin joel hanes jjh diag amdahl com wrote mr connor s assertion that more complex later in paleontology is simply incorrect many lineages are known in which whole structures are lost for example snakes have lost their legs cave fish have lost their eyes some species have almost completely lost their males kiwis are descended from birds with functional wings joel the statements i made were illustrative of the inescapably anthrpomorphic quality of any desciption of an evolutionary process there is no way evolution can be described or explained in terms other than teleological that is my whole point even those who have reason to believe they understand evolution biologists for instance tend to personify nature and i can t help but wonder if it s because of the limits of the language or the nature of nature bill
alt.atheism	re gospel dating keith m ryan kmr po cwru edu wrote wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence if you state that one of the books in your room is blue i certainly do not need as much evidence to believe than if you were to claim that there is a two headed leapard in your bed and i don t mean a male lover in a leotard keith if the issue is what is truth then the consequences of whatever proposition argued is irrelevent if the issue is what are the consequences if such and such is true then truth is irrelevent which is it to be bill
alt.atheism	re gospel dating jim perry perry dsinc com wrote the bible says there is a god if that is true then our atheism is mistaken what of it seems pretty obvious to me socrates said there were many gods if that is true then your monotheism and our atheism is mistaken even if socrates never existed jim i think you must have come in late the discussion on my part at least began with benedikt s questioning of the historical acuuracy of the nt i was making the point that if the same standards are used to validate secular history that are used here to discredit nt history then virtually nothing is known of the first century you seem to be saying that the bible cannot be true because it speaks of the existence of god as it it were a fact your objection has nothing to do with history it is merely another statement of atheism bill
alt.atheism	re not the omni charley wingate mangoe cs umd edu wrote please enlighten me how is omnipotence contradictory by definition all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules of nature thus god cannot break them anything that god does must be allowed in the rules somewhere therefore omnipotence cannot exist it contradicts the rules of nature obviously an omnipotent god can change the rules when you say by definition what exactly is being defined certainly not omnipotence you seem to be saying that the rules of nature are pre existant somehow that they not only define nature but actually cause it if that s what you mean i d like to hear your further thoughts on the question bill
alt.atheism	re if only he knew prudenti juncol juniata edu wrote upon arriving at home joseph probably took advantage of mary had his way with her so to speak of course word of this couldn t get around so mary being the highly religious follower that she was decided hey i ll just say that god impregnated me no one will ever know thus seen as a trustworthy and honorable soul she was believed and then came jesus the child born from violence dave can you explain the purpose of your post i can t imagine what you must have thougt it meant bill
alt.atheism	re allah akbar and praise the lord maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com wrote and thank the lord that bill connor has returned to set us straight now i know i can die happy when my lexus se wipes out on that rain slick curve in the rest of you had best straighten up because your time is even more limited most of you are going in the flu of maddi you know you re glad to have me visit but i won t stay long this time just shopping around bill
alt.atheism	re dear mr theist pixie dl andy bgsu edu wrote for all the problems technology has caused your types have made things even worse must we be reminded of the inquisition operation rescue the ku klux klan posse comitatus the club david duke salem witch trials the crusades gay bashings etc plus virtually each and every single war regardless of the level of technology has had theistic organizations cheering on the carnage chaplains etc and claiming that god was in favor of the whole ordeal don t forget to pray for our troops this is really tedious every bad thing that s ever happened is because the malefactors were under the influence of religion does anyone really believe that i ve seen it so often it must be a pretty general opinion in a a but i want to believe that atheists are really not that dishonest please stick to the facts and having accomplished that interpret them correctly bill
alt.atheism	re is morality constant was re biblical rape jim perry perry dsinc com wrote xenophobia both de facto and de jure as implemented in legal systems is widespread while the bible although not egalitarian specifically preaches kindness to the stranger and emphasizes in the book of ruth that a foreigner can join the nation and give rise to one of the great heroes of the nation clearly better than the alternative but as an american what strikes me as strange about this story is that it should have even been considered an issue jim there are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread that are a little confusing an atheist is one for whom all things can be understood as processes of nature exclusively there is no need for any recourse to divnity to describe or explain anything there is no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by physics chemistry biology etc everything is random nothing is determnined this would also have to include human intelligence of course and all its products there is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it acquire intelligence it s just a happy accident for an atheist no event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less value than another in any naturalistic sense and no thought about an event can have value the products of our intelligence are acquired from our environment from teaching training observation and experience and are only significant to the individual mind wherein they reside these mental processes and the images they produce for us are just electrical activity and nothing more content is of no consequence the human mind is as much a response to natural forces as water running down a hill how then can an atheist judge value what is the basis for criticizing the values ennumerated in the bible or the purposes imputed to god on what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned it seems that in judging the values that motivate others to action you have to have some standard against which conduct is measured but what in nature can serve that purpose what law of nature can you invoke to establish your values since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event what difference could it possibly make what anyone does religious or otherwise there can be no meaning or gradation of value the only way an atheist can object to any behaviour is to admit that the objection is entirely subjective and that he she just doesn t like it that s it any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries no weight in any absolute sense that you don t like what god told people to do says nothing about god or god s commands it says only that there was an electrical event in your nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled with a pre existing thought set to form that reaction that your objections seem well founded is due to the way you ve been conditioned there is no truth content the whole of your intellectual landscape is an illusion a virtual reality i didn t make these rules it s inherent in naturalistic atheism and to be consistent you have to accept the non significance of any human thought even your own all of this being so you have excluded yourself from any discussion of values right wrong goood evil etc and cannot participate your opinion about the bible can have no weight whatsoever bill
alt.atheism	re bill conner could you explain what any of this pertains to is this a position statement on something or typing practice and why are you using my name do you think this relates to anything i ve said and if so what bill
alt.atheism	re islam dress code for women in ba c i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes deletion of course people say what they think to be the religion and that this is not exactly the same coming from different people within the religion there is nothing with there existing different perspectives within the religion perhaps one can say that they tend to converge on the truth my point is that they are doing a lot of harm on the way in the meantime and that they converge is counterfactual religions appear to split and diverge even when there might be a true religion at the core the layers above determine what happens in practise and they are quite inhumane usually what you post then is supposed to be an answer but i don t see what is has got to do with what i say i will repeat it religions as are harm people and religions don t converge they split giving more to disagree upon and there is a lot of disagreement to whom one should be tolerant or if one should be tolerant at all ideologies also split giving more to disagree upon and may also lead to intolerance so do you also oppose all ideologies i don t think your argument is an argument against religion at all but just points out the weaknesses of human nature big deletion do women have souls in islam people have said here that some muslims say that women do not have souls i must admit i have never heard of such a view being held by muslims of any era i have heard of some christians of some eras holding this viewpoint but not muslims are you sure you might not be confusing christian history with islamic history yes it is supposed to have been a predominant view in the turkish caliphate i would like a reference if you have got one for this is news to me anyhow that women are the spiritual equals of men can be clearly shown from many verses of the qur an for example the qur an says for muslim men and women for believing men and women for devout men and women for true men and women for men and women who are patient and constant for men and women who humble themselves for men and women who give in charity for men and women who fast and deny themselves for men and women who guard their chastity and for men and women who engage much in god s praise for them has god prepared forgiveness and a great reward qur an abdullah yusuf ali s translation there are other quotes too but i think the above quote shows that men and women are spiritual equals and thus that women have souls just as men do very clearly no it does not it implies that they have souls but it does not say they have souls and it is not given that the quote above is given a high priority in all interpretations one must approach the qur an with intelligence any thinking approach to the qur an cannot but interpret the above verse and others like it that women and men are spiritual equals i think that the above verse does clearly imply that women have souls does it make any sense for something without a soul to be forgiven or to have a great reward understood to be in the after life i think the usual answer would be no in which case the part saying for them has god prepared forgiveness and a great reward says they have souls if it makes sense to say that things without souls can be forgiven then i have no idea what a soul is as for your saying that the quote above may not be given a high priority in all interpretations any thinking approach to the qur an has to give all verses of the qur an equal priority that is because according to muslim belief the whole qur an is the revelation of god in fact denying the truth of any part of the qur an is sufficient to be considered a disbeliever in islam quite similar to you other post even when the quran does not encourage slavery it is not justified to say that iit forbids or puts an end to slavery it is a non sequitur look any approach to the qur an must be done with intelligence and thought it is in this fashion that one can try to understand the quran s message in a book of finite length it cannot explicitly answer every question you want to put to it but through its teachings it can guide you i think however that women are the spiritual equals of men is clearly and unambiguously implied in the above verse and that since women can clearly be forgiven and rewarded they must have souls from the above verse let s try to understand what the qur an is trying to teach rather than try to see how many ways it can be misinterpreted by ignoring this passage or that passage the misinterpretations of the qur an based on ignoring this verse or that verse are infinite but the interpretations fully consistent are more limited let s try to discuss these interpretations consistent with the text rather than how people can ignore this bit or that bit for that is just showing how people can try to twist islam for their own ends something i do not deny but provides no reflection on the true teachings of islam whatsoever fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re slavery was re why is sex only allowed in marriage in apr ennews eas asu edu guncer enuxha eas asu edu selim guncer writes you might not like what bernard lewis writes about label him as a zionist or such to discredit him etc you misrepresent me selim the hard evidence for my statements about his lack of objectivity are presented quite clearly in the book orientalism by edward said edward said by the way is a christian not a muslim i think he is pretty much objective in his treatment in race and slavery in the middle east since he clearly distinguishes between slavery under islam and the practice of slavery in other countries like the us prior to the civil war he also does not conceal that there are verses in the quran which promote the liberation of slaves what he doesn t and i don t think nobody can deduce from these verses is that slavery will eventually be abolished in islamic countries now you might rather conveniently blame the practice of slavery on muslims but the facts are out there i also fail to see the relevance of the claim of lewis being a zionist to what i wrote regarding bernard lewis him being a zionist gives him a political motive for his giving misrepresentations and half truths about islam read orientalism by edward said see the evidence for yourself in fact i may post some of it here if it isn t too long they were encyclopaedic information which anybody can access that slavery was abolished at certain dates some years after muhammed that this was the cause of tensions in the ottoman empire between the arab slave traders and the government etc we also have in the asu library volumes of british documents on slavery where reports and documents concerning slavery all around the world can be found which i checked some of the incidents lewis mentions so i don t think ones political stance has anything to do with documentary evidence i haven t read lewis s article so i can t comment directly upon it and have only spoken about his writings in general so far that his political motives make him a biased writer on islam his anti islamic polemics as i understand it are often quite subtle and are often based on telling half truths again read orientalism by edward said i am not asking you to take what i say on trust in fact i am urging you not to do so but to get this book it is a well known book and check the evidence out for yourself the issue i raised was that slaves were used for sexual purposes when it was claimed that islam prohibits extra marital sex i wrote that the prophet himself had concubines i wrote an incident in which the prophet advised on someone who did not want his concubine to get pregnant etc which is contrary to the notion that sex is for procreation only in other words such claims are baseless in the quran and the hadith if slavery is in reality as opposed to in the practice of some muslims opposed by islam then using slaves for sexual purposes is necessarily opposed too i seem to be unsuccesful in getting through to you islam is not advocating slavery slavery was an existing institution in the th century it advised on slaves being freed for good deeds etc which is nothing new many cultures saw this as a good thing what is the problem here but i can argue rightfully that slaves were discouraged about thinking about their statuses politically the quran rewards the good slave so obey your master and perhaps one day you ll be free but it is very understandable that i do not communicate with muslims since they assume the quran is from a god and i think it is a rule based system imposed on the society for preservation of the status quo slaves are a part of this system the subordination of women so that their function in society boils down to child making is a part of this system etc i understand your point of view selim i think rather it is us who are not getting through to you some of the points you repeat above i have already answered before regarding women i have made posting after posting on this subject showing that islam is not anti woman etc however have you been completely ignoring my postings or just missing them i just reposted a very good one under the title islam and women reposted from soc religion islam if this has already disappeared from your site then please email me telling me so and i will email you a copy of this excellent article imho your understanding of the issue of women in islam is sadly deficient regarding slaves my posting on slavery the second one i made which is a repost of an article i wrote early last year is based completely on the qur an and contains numerous qur anic verses and hadiths to support its point of view our approaches are different you are arguing from a historical standpoint and i am arguing directly from the teachings of the qur an and hadiths now just because people say they are muslims and perform a particular action does that automatically mean that their action is part of islam even if it is opposed by the qur an and sunnah no of course not let me give you a concrete example which might help clarify this for you the qur an prohibits drinking now if a person says i am a muslim and then proceeds to drink a bottle of beer does this now mean that islam teaches that people should drink beer of course not and only an idiot would think so do you see my point it is very natural to think that the author authors of the quran had no idea that the socio economic structure they were advocating would experience at least two paradigm shifts in years in the western cultures first with the end of the feudal era and the rise of commerce second with the industrial revolution well rules have changed and the status quo has driven muslim countries into misery trying to survive in a heathen world muslim countries have failed economically they were unable to accumulate any wealth directly due to the uncomprimising economic rules in the quran in fact the rise of islam can easily be modeled after the pyramid effect you do not produce any wealth at home but increase your wealth by conquering places you are judging islam here on capitalist terms capitalism is an ideology based largely on the assumption that people want to maximise their wealth this assumption is in opposition to islamic teachings to say islam is bad because it is not capitalist is pretty unthinking islam does not pretend to be capitalist and does not try to be capitalist this does not mean that islam does not support a free market for it does in general but there are other parts of capitalism which are opposed to islam as i understand it when this stopped you and i were left bare in the open for emperialists to devour no capital no industry very poor social services the education level in muslim countries are the lowest in the world the health statistics are miserable etc one can postulate numerous reasons for this your theory is that it is because islam is not secularist and capitalist etc etc selim i will give you a clear historical example to show you the fallacy of your views if you think as you obviously do that islam lack of education and power for a large part of history the islamic world was very powerful for a significant section of history the islamic world was the foremost in the sciences so to say that islam is for example anti education is completely absurd you try to blame this situation on islam history shows that your conclusion is false and that instead there must be other reasons for this situation you blame muslims for not following the quran but i blame muslims for following the quran well selim your viewpoint on women in islam makes me question the extent of your knowledge of islam i really think you are not knowledgeable enough to be able to judge whether the muslims are following the qur an or not your idea is baseless from historical facts it is a poor utopia the islamic world was at the forefront of the world in science at one stage yet somehow in your theory it is by following the qur an that muslims are backwards in education selim it is your thesis that is anti historical for you conveniently overlook this historical fact which contradicts your theory while my ideas are derived from social and economic history you have certainly not shown this you have merely stated it so far it seems to me that your view on islam being anti education is quite contrary to history that you are so convinced of your views makes me wonder just how objectively you are trying to look at all of this my solution to all muslims is simple cut the crap i think selim you should consider taking your own advice get the facts straight here too and work hard to reverse the effects of years of ignorance selim you have such conviction of your viewpoint yet you demonstrate ignorance not only of islam but also of islamic history particularly with respect to muslims being leaders of science till about or so i think yet you say that your viewpoint is based on history selim if i remember right you say in one of your earlier posts that you are an apostate from islam i think you should slow down and start thinking clearly about the issues and start reading some of our postings about islam rather than ignoring them as you so obviously have fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re jews can t hide from keith cco in article pqdor s fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes the poster casually trashed two thousand years of jewish history and ken replied that there had previously been people like him in germany i think the problem here is that i pretty much ignored the part about the jews sightseeing for years thinking instead that the important part of what the original poster said was the bit about killing palestinians in retrospect i can see how the sightseeing thing would be offensive to many i originally saw it just as poetic license but it s understandable that others might see it differently i still think that ken came on a bit strong though i also think that your advice to masud khan before you argue with someone like mr arromdee it s a good idea to do a little homework or at least think was unnecessary that s right there have been there have also been people who were formally nazis but the nazi party would have gone nowhere without the active and tacit support of the ordinary man in the street who behaved as though casual anti semitism was perfectly acceptable now what exactly don t you understand about what i wrote and why don t you see what it has to do with the matter at hand throughout all your articles in this thread there is the tacit assumption that the original poster was exhibiting casual anti semitism if i agreed with that then maybe your speech on why this is bad might have been relevant but i think you re reading a lot into one flip sentence while probably not true in this case too often the charge of anti semitism gets thrown around in order to stifle legitimate criticism of the state of israel anyway i d rather be somewhere else so i m outta this thread doug graham dgraham bnr ca my opinions are my own
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq frequently asked questions archive name atheism faq alt atheism archive name faq last modified april version alt atheism frequently asked questions this file contains responses to articles which occur repeatedly in alt atheism points covered here are ones which are not covered in the introduction to atheism you are advised to read that article as well before posting these answers are not intended to be exhaustive or definitive the purpose of the periodic faq postings is not to stifle debate but to raise its level if you have something to say concerning one of these questions and which isn t covered by the answer given please feel free to make your point overview of contents what is the purpose of this newsgroup hitler was an atheist the bible proves it pascal s wager what is occam s razor why it s good to believe in jesus why i know that god exists einstein and god does not play dice everyone worships something why there must be a causeless cause the universe is so complex it must have been designed independent evidence that the bible is true godel s incompleteness theorem george bush on atheism and patriotism i know where hell is biblical contradictions wanted the usa is a christian nation the usa is not a christian nation subject what is the purpose of this newsgroup typical posting why have a newsgroup about atheism why do atheists organize in groups what is there to discuss response many things are discussed here including whether it is reasonable to feign theism in order to avoid upsetting one s family prayer in schools discrimination against atheists sunday trading laws the satanic child abuse myth whether one should be an overt atheist or stay in the closet how religious societies prey sic on new college students how to get rid of unwanted proselytizers whether religion is a danger to society and or the individual why people become atheists of course inevitably alt atheism tends to attract evangelical christians looking for someone to convert most readers of the newsgroup don t want to be preached to although a few seem to derive perverse pleasure from tearing apart particularly ill considered or uninformed postings subject hitler was an atheist typical posting hitler was an atheist and look at what he did response adolf hitler was emphatically not an atheist as he said himself the folkish minded man in particular has the sacred duty each in his own denomination of making people stop just talking superficially of god s will and actually fulfill god s will and not let god s word be desecrated orig ital for god s will gave men their form their essence and their abilities anyone who destroys his work is declaring war on the lord s creation the divine will therefore let every man be active each in his own denomination if you please and let every man take it as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines of his religious community and tries to butt into the other hence today i believe that i am acting in accordance with the will of the almighty creator by defending myself against the jew i am fighting for the work of the lord orig ital adolf hitler from mein kampf trans ralph mannheim of course someone bad believing something does not make that belief wrong it s also entirely possible that hitler was lying when he claimed to believe in god we certainly can t conclude that he s an atheist though subject the bible proves it typical posting in the bible it says that response most of the readers of alt atheism feel that the bible is of questionable accuracy as it was written thousands of years ago by many authors who were recording oral tradition that existed many years before thus any claimed truth in it is of questionable legitimacy this isn t to say that the bible has no truth in it simply that any truth must be examined before being accepted many of the readers of this group also feel that because any passage is subject to interpretation any claim that a passage means one thing and one thing only is not legitimate note that this feeling tends to extend to other books it is also remarkable to many atheists that theists tend to ignore other equally plausible religious books in favour of those of their own religion subject pascal s wager typical posting if you believe in god and turn out to be incorrect you have lost nothing but if you don t believe in god and turn out to be incorrect you will go to hell therefore it is foolish to be an atheist response this argument is known as pascal s wager it has several flaws firstly it does not indicate which religion to follow indeed there are many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there this is often described as the avoiding the wrong hell problem if a person is a follower of religion x he may end up in religion y s version of hell secondly the statement that if you believe in god and turn out to be incorrect you have lost nothing is not true suppose you re believing in the wrong god the true god might punish you for your foolishness consider also the deaths that have resulted from people rejecting medicine in favour of prayer another flaw in the argument is that it is based on the assumption that the two possibilities are equally likely or at least that they are of comparable likelihood if in fact the possibility of there being a god is close to zero the argument becomes much less persuasive so sadly the argument is only likely to convince those who believe already also many feel that for intellectually honest people belief is based on evidence with some amount of intuition it is not a matter of will or cost benefit analysis formally speaking the argument consists of four statements one does not know whether god exists not believing in god is bad for one s eternal soul if god does exist believing in god is of no consequence if god does not exist therefore it is in one s interest to believe in god there are two approaches to the argument the first is to view as an assumption and as a consequence of it one problem with this approach in the abstract is that it creates information from no information this is considered invalid in information theory statement indicates one has no information about god but statement indicates that beneficial information can be gained from the absolute lack of information about god this violates information entropy information has been extracted from no information at no cost the alternative approach is to claim that and are both assumptions the problem with this is that is then basically an assumption which states the christian position and only a christian will agree with that assumption the argument thus collapses to if you are a christian it is in your interests to believe in god a rather vacuous tautology and not the way pascal intended the argument to be viewed the biggest reason why pascal s wager is a failure is that if god is omniscient he will certainly know who really believes and who believes as a wager he will spurn the latter assuming he actually cares at all whether people believe in him subject what is occam s razor typical posting people keep talking about occam s razor what is it response william of occam formulated a principle which has become known as occam s razor in its original form it said do not multiply entities unnecessarily that is if you can explain something without supposing the existence of some entity then do so nowadays when people refer to occam s razor they generally express it more generally for example as take the simplest solution the relevance to atheism is that we can look at two possible explanations for what we see around us there is an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there which came into being as a result of natural processes there is an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there and there is also a god who created the universe clearly this god must be of non zero complexity given that both explanations fit the facts occam s razor might suggest that we should take the simpler of the two solution number one unfortunately some argue that there is a third even more simple solution there isn t an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there we just imagine that there is this third option leads us logically towards solipsism which many people find unacceptable subject why it s good to believe in jesus typical posting i want to tell people about the virtues and benefits of my religion response preaching is not appreciated feel free to talk about your religion but please do not write postings that are on a conversion theme such postings do not belong on alt atheism and will be rejected from alt atheism moderated try the newsgroup talk religion misc you would doubtless not welcome postings from atheists to your favourite newsgroup in an attempt to convert you please do unto others as you would have them do unto you often theists make their basic claims about god in the form of lengthy analogies or parables be aware that atheists have heard of god and know the basic claims about him if the sole purpose of your parable is to tell atheists that god exists and brings salvation you may as well not post it since it tells us nothing we have not been told before subject why i know that god exists typical posting i know from personal experience and prayer that god exists response just as many theists have personal evidence that the being they worship exists so many atheists have personal evidence that such beings do not exist that evidence varies from person to person furthermore without wishing to dismiss your evidence out of hand many people have claimed all kinds of unlikely things that they have been abducted by ufos visited by the ghost of elvis and so on subject einstein and god does not play dice typical posting albert einstein believed in god do you think you re cleverer than him response einstein did once comment that god does not play dice with the universe this quotation is commonly mentioned to show that einstein believed in the christian god used this way it is out of context it refers to einstein s refusal to accept the uncertainties indicated by quantum theory furthermore einstein s religious background was jewish rather than christian a better quotation showing what einstein thought about god is the following i believe in spinoza s god who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists not in a god who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings einstein was unable to accept quantum theory because of his belief in an objective orderly reality a reality which would not be subject to random events and which would not be dependent upon the observer he believed that qm was incomplete and that a better theory would have no need for statistical interpretations so far no such better theory has been found and much evidence suggests that it never will be a longer quote from einstein appears in science philosophy and religion a symposium published by the conference on science philosophy and religion in their relation to the democratic way of life inc new york in it he says the more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature for him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events to be sure the doctrine of a personal god interfering with natural events could never be refuted italics his in the real sense by science for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot but i am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal for a doctrine which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark will of necessity lose its effect on mankind with incalculable harm to human progress in their struggle for the ethical good teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal god that is give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests in their labors they will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable of cultivating the good the true and the beautiful in humanity itself this is to be sure a more difficult but an incomparably more worthy task einstein has also said it was of course a lie what you read about my religous convictions a lie which is being systematically repeated i do not believe in a personal god and i have never denied this but have expressed it clearly if something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it the latter quote is from albert einstein the human side edited by helen dukas and banesh hoffman and published by princeton university press also from the same book i do not believe in immortality of the individual and i consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it of course the fact that einstein chose not to believe in christianity does not in itself imply that christianity is false subject everyone worships something typical posting everyone worships something whether it s money power or god response if that is true everyone is a polytheist theists care just as much about those things that atheists care about if the atheists reactions to for example their families amount to worship then so do the theists subject why there must be a causeless cause typical posting sets of integers that have a lower bound each have a smallest member so chains of causes must all have a first element a causeless cause response the set of real numbers greater than zero has a definite lower bound but has no smallest member further even if it is true that there must be a causeless cause that does not imply that that cause must be a conscious supernatural entity and especially not that any such entity must match the description favoured by any particular religion subject the universe is so complex it must have been designed typical posting the presence of design in the universe proves there is a god surely you don t think all this appeared here just by chance response this is known as the argument from design it is a matter of dispute whether there is any element of design in the universe those who believe that the complexity and diversity of living creatures on the earth is evidence of a creator are best advised to read the newsgroup talk origins for a while there is insufficient space to summarize both sides of that debate here however the conclusion is that there is no scientific evidence in favour of so called scientific creationism furthermore there is much evidence observation and theory that can explain many of the complexities of the universe and life on earth the origin of the argument by design is a feeling that the existence of something as incredibly intricate as say a human is so improbable that surely it can t have come about by chance that surely there must be some external intelligence directing things so that humans come from the chaos deliberately but if human intelligence is so improbable surely the existence of a mind capable of fashioning an entire universe complete with conscious beings must be immeasurably more unlikely the approach used to argue in favour of the existence of a creator can be turned around and applied to the creationist position this leads us to the familiar theme of if a creator created the universe what created the creator but with the addition of spiralling improbability the only way out is to declare that the creator was not created and just is or was from here we might as well ask what is wrong with saying that the universe just is without introducing a creator indeed stephen hawking in his book a brief history of time explains his theory that the universe is closed and finite in extent with no beginning or end the argument from design is often stated by analogy in the so called watchmaker argument one is asked to imagine that one has found a watch on the beach does one assume that it was created by a watchmaker or that it evolved naturally of course one assumes a watchmaker yet like the watch the universe is intricate and complex so the argument goes the universe too must have a creator the watchmaker analogy suffers from three particular flaws over and above those common to all arguments by design firstly a watchmaker creates watches from pre existing materials whereas god is claimed to have created the universe from nothing these two sorts of creation are clearly fundamentally different and the analogy is therefore rather weak secondly a watchmaker makes watches but there are many other things in the world if we walked further along the beach and found a nuclear reactor we wouldn t assume it was created by the watchmaker the argument would therefore suggest a multitude of creators each responsible for a different part of creation finally in the first part of the watchmaker argument we conclude that the watch is not part of nature because it is ordered and therefore stands out from the randomness of nature yet in the second part of the argument we start from the position that the universe is obviously not random but shows elements of order the watchmaker argument is thus internally inconsistent subject independent evidence that the bible is true typical posting the events of the new testament are confirmed by independent documentary evidence for example response the writings of josephus are often mentioned as independent documentary evidence early versions of josephus s work are thought not to have mentioned jesus or james the extant version discusses john in a non christian context many scholars believe that the original mentioned jesus and james in passing but that this was expanded by christian copyists several reconstructions of the original text have been published to this effect much information appears in the ecclesiastical history of eusebius about c e it is worthless as historical material because of the deliberate falsification of the wily eusebius who is generally acknowledged as the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity it is eusebius who is generally given the title of authorship for this material aside from the new testament the biographical information about jesus is more well documented for further information please consult the frequently asked questions file for the newsgroup soc religion christian subject godel s incompleteness theorem typical posting godel s incompleteness theorem demonstrates that it is impossible for the bible to be both true and complete response godel s first incompleteness theorem says that in any consistent formal system which is sufficiently expressive that it can model ordinary arithmetic one can formulate expressions which can never be proven to be valid or invalid true or false within that formal system technically speaking the system must also be recursive that is there must be a decision procedure for determining whether a given string is an axiom within the formal system essentially all such systems can formulate what is known as a liar paradox the classic liar paradox sentence in ordinary english is this sentence is false note that if a proposition is undecidable the formal system cannot even deduce that it is undecidable the logic used in theological discussions is rarely well defined so claims that godel s incompleteness theorem demonstrates that it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of god are worthless in isolation one can trivially define a formal system in which it is possible to prove the existence of god simply by having the existence of god stated as an axiom this is unlikely to be viewed by atheists as a convincing proof however it may be possible to succeed in producing a formal system built on axioms that both atheists and theists agree with it may then be possible to show that godel s incompleteness theorem holds for that system however that would still not demonstrate that it is impossible to prove that god exists within the system furthermore it certainly wouldn t tell us anything about whether it is possible to prove the existence of god generally note also that all of these hypothetical formal systems tell us nothing about the actual existence of god the formal systems are just abstractions another frequent claim is that godel s incompleteness theorem demonstrates that a religious text the bible the book of mormon or whatever cannot be both consistent and universally applicable religious texts are not formal systems so such claims are nonsense subject george bush on atheism and patriotism typical posting did george bush really say that atheists should not be considered citizens response the following exchange took place at the chicago airport between robert i sherman of american atheist press and george bush on august sherman is a fully accredited reporter and was present by invitation as a member of the press corps the republican presidential nominee was there to announce federal disaster relief for illinois the discussion turned to the presidential primary rs what will you do to win the votes of americans who are atheists gb i guess i m pretty weak in the atheist community faith in god is important to me rs surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of americans who are atheists gb no i don t know that atheists should be considered as citizens nor should they be considered patriots this is one nation under god rs do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church gb yes i support the separation of church and state i m just not very high on atheists upi reported on may that various atheist organizations were still angry over the remarks the exchange appeared in the boulder daily camera on monday february it can also be found in free enquiry magazine fall issue volume number page on october mr sherman had a confrontation with ed murnane cochairman of the bush quayle illinois campaign this concerned a lawsuit mr sherman had filed to stop the community consolidated school district chicago illinois from forcing his first grade atheist son to pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states as one nation under god bush s phrase the following conversation took place rs american atheists filed the pledge of allegiance lawsuit yesterday does the bush campaign have an official response to this filing em it s bullshit rs what is bullshit em everything that american atheists does rob is bullshit rs thank you for telling me what the official position of the bush campaign is on this issue em you re welcome after bush s election american atheists wrote to bush asking him to retract his statement on february st c boyden gray counsel to the president replied on white house stationery that bush substantively stood by his original statement and wrote as you are aware the president is a religious man who neither supports atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or supported by the government for further information contact american atheist veterans at the american atheist press s cameron road address subject i know where hell is typical posting i know where hell is hell is in norway response there are several towns called hell in various countries around the world including norway and the usa whilst this information is mildly amusing the first time one hears it readers of alt atheism are now getting pretty fed up with hearing it every week subject biblical contradictions wanted typical posting does anyone have a list of biblical contradictions response american atheist press publish an atheist s handbook detailing biblical contradictions see the accompanying posting on atheist resources for details there is a file containing some biblical contradictions available from the archive server mantis co uk see the contacts file for more information subject the usa is a christian nation typical posting because of the religious beliefs of the founding fathers shouldn t the united states be considered a christian nation response based upon the writings of several important founding fathers it is clear that they never intended the us to be a christian nation here are some quotes there are many more what influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on society in some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries a just government instituted to secure and perpetuate it needs them not james madison a memorial and remonstrance i almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved the cross consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced john adams in a letter to thomas jefferson history i believe furnishes no example of a priest ridden people maintaining a free civil government this marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose thomas jefferson to baron von humboldt i cannot conceive otherwise than that he the infinite father expects or requires no worship or praise from us but that he is even infinitely above it benjamin franklin from articles of belief and acts of religion nov subject the usa is not a christian nation typical posting is it true that george washington said that the united states is not in any sense founded upon the christian religion response no the quotation often given is in fact from article xi of the treaty of tripoli stat treaty series article as the government of the united states of america is not in any sense founded on the christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws religion or tranquility of musselmen and as the said states never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any mehomitan nation it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries the text may be found in the congressional record or in treaty collections such as charles bevans treaties and other international agreements of the united states of america vol pp the english text of the treaty of tripoli was approved by the u s senate on june and ratified by president john adams on june it was recently discovered that the arabic version of the treaty not only lacks the quotation it lacks article xi altogether the person who translated the arabic to english was joel barlow consul general at algiers a close friend of thomas paine and an opponent of christianity it is possible that barlow made up article xi but since there is no arabic version of that article to be found it s hard to say in a new treaty of tripoli was ratified which no longer contained the quotation end of faq digest
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq constructing a logical argument archive name atheism logic alt atheism archive name logic last modified april version constructing a logical argument although there is much argument on usenet the general quality of argument found is poor this article attempts to provide a gentle introduction to logic in the hope of improving the general level of debate logic is the science of reasoning proof thinking or inference concise oed logic allows us to analyze a piece of reasoning and determine whether it is correct or not valid or invalid of course one does not need to study logic in order to reason correctly nevertheless a little basic knowledge of logic is often helpful when constructing or analyzing an argument note that no claim is being made here about whether logic is universally applicable the matter is very much open for debate this document merely explains how to use logic given that you have already decided that logic is the right tool for the job propositions or statements are the building blocks of a logical argument a proposition is a statement which is either true or false for example it is raining or today is tuesday propositions may be either asserted said to be true or denied said to be false note that this is a technical meaning of deny not the everyday meaning the proposition is the meaning of the statement not the particular arrangement of words used to express it so god exists and there exists a god both express the same proposition an argument is to quote the monty python sketch a connected series of statements to establish a definite proposition an argument consists of three stages first of all the propositions which are necessary for the argument to continue are stated these are called the premises of the argument they are the evidence or reasons for accepting the argument and its conclusions premises or assertions are often indicated by phrases such as because since obviously and so on the phrase obviously is often viewed with suspicion as it can be used to intimidate others into accepting suspicious premises if something doesn t seem obvious to you don t be afraid to question it you can always say oh yes you re right it is obvious when you ve heard the explanation next the premises are used to derive further propositions by a process known as inference in inference one proposition is arrived at on the basis of one or more other propositions already accepted there are various forms of valid inference the propositions arrived at by inference may then be used in further inference inference is often denoted by phrases such as implies that or therefore finally we arrive at the conclusion of the argument the proposition which is affirmed on the basis of the premises and inference conclusions are often indicated by phrases such as therefore it follows that we conclude and so on the conclusion is often stated as the final stage of inference for example every event has a cause premise the universe has a beginning premise all beginnings involve an event premise this implies that the beginning of the universe involved an event inference therefore the universe has a cause inference and conclusion note that the conclusion of one argument might be a premise in another argument a proposition can only be called a premise or a conclusion with respect to a particular argument the terms do not make sense in isolation sometimes an argument will not follow the order given above for example the conclusions might be stated first and the premises stated afterwards in support of the conclusion this is perfectly valid if sometimes a little confusing recognizing an argument is much harder than recognizing premises or conclusions many people shower their writing with assertions without ever producing anything which one might reasonably describe as an argument some statements look like arguments but are not for example if the bible is accurate jesus must either have been insane an evil liar or the son of god this is not an argument it is a conditional statement it does not assert the premises which are necessary to support what appears to be its conclusion it also suffers from a number of other logical flaws but we ll come to those later another example god created you therefore do your duty to god the phrase do your duty to god is not a proposition since it is neither true nor false therefore it is not a conclusion and the sentence is not an argument finally causality is important consider a statement of the form a because b if we re interested in establishing a and b is offered as evidence the statement is an argument if we re trying to establish the truth of b then it is not an argument it is an explanation for example there must be something wrong with the engine of my car because it will not start this is an argument my car will not start because there is something wrong with the engine this is an explanation there are two traditional types of argument deductive and inductive a deductive argument is one which provides conclusive proof of its conclusions that is an argument where if the premises are true the conclusion must also be true a deductive argument is either valid or invalid a valid argument is defined as one where if the premises are true then the conclusion is true an inductive argument is one where the premises provide some evidence for the truth of the conclusion inductive arguments are not valid or invalid however we can talk about whether they are better or worse than other arguments and about how probable their premises are there are forms of argument in ordinary language which are neither deductive nor inductive however we will concentrate for the moment on deductive arguments as they are often viewed as the most rigorous and convincing it is important to note that the fact that a deductive argument is valid does not imply that its conclusion holds this is because of the slightly counter intuitive nature of implication which we must now consider more carefully obviously a valid argument can consist of true propositions however an argument may be entirely valid even if it contains only false propositions for example all insects have wings premise woodlice are insects premise therefore woodlice have wings conclusion here the conclusion is not true because the argument s premises are false if the argument s premises were true however the conclusion would be true the argument is thus entirely valid more subtly we can reach a true conclusion from one or more false premises as in all fish live in the sea premise dolphins are fish premise therefore dolphins live in the sea conclusion however the one thing we cannot do is reach a false conclusion through valid inference from true premises we can therefore draw up a truth table for implication the symbol denotes implication a is the premise b the conclusion t and f represent true and false respectively premise conclusion inference a b a b f f t if the premises are false and the inference f t t valid the conclusion can be true or false t f f if the premises are true and the conclusion false the inference must be invalid t t t if the premises are true and the inference valid the conclusion must be true a sound argument is a valid argument whose premises are true a sound argument therefore arrives at a true conclusion be careful not to confuse valid arguments with sound arguments to delve further into the structure of logical arguments would require lengthy discussion of linguistics and philosophy it is simpler and probably more useful to summarize the major pitfalls to be avoided when constructing an argument these pitfalls are known as fallacies in everyday english the term fallacy is used to refer to mistaken beliefs as well as to the faulty reasoning that leads to those beliefs this is fair enough but in logic the term is generally used to refer to a form of technically incorrect argument especially if the argument appears valid or convincing so for the purposes of this discussion we define a fallacy as a logical argument which appears to be correct but which can be seen to be incorrect when examined more closely by studying fallacies we aim to avoid being misled by them the following list of fallacies is not intended to be exhaustive argumentum ad baculum appeal to force the appeal to force is committed when the arguer resorts to force or the threat of force in order to try and push the acceptance of a conclusion it is often used by politicians and can be summarized as might makes right the force threatened need not be a direct threat from the arguer for example thus there is ample proof of the truth of the bible all those who refuse to accept that truth will burn in hell argumentum ad hominem argumentum ad hominem is literally argument directed at the man the abusive variety of argumentum ad hominem occurs when instead of trying to disprove the truth of an assertion the arguer attacks the person or people making the assertion this is invalid because the truth of an assertion does not depend upon the goodness of those asserting it for example atheism is an evil philosophy it is practised by communists and murderers sometimes in a court of law doubt is cast upon the testimony of a witness by showing for example that he is a known perjurer this is a valid way of reducing the credibility of the testimony given by the witness and not argumentum ad hominem however it does not demonstrate that the witness s testimony is false to conclude otherwise is to fall victim of the argumentum ad ignorantiam see elsewhere in this list the circumstantial form of argumentum ad hominem is committed when a person argues that his opponent ought to accept the truth of an assertion because of the opponent s particular circumstances for example it is perfectly acceptable to kill animals for food how can you argue otherwise when you re quite happy to wear leather shoes this is an abusive charge of inconsistency used as an excuse for dismissing the opponent s argument this fallacy can also be used as a means of rejecting a conclusion for example of course you would argue that positive discrimination is a bad thing you re white this particular form of argumentum ad hominem when one alleges that one s adversary is rationalizing a conclusion formed from selfish interests is also known as poisoning the well argumentum ad ignorantium argumentum ad ignorantium means argument from ignorance this fallacy occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply because it has not been proved false or equivalently when it is argued that something must be false because it has not been proved true note that this is not the same as assuming that something is false until it has been proved true a basic scientific principle examples of course the bible is true nobody can prove otherwise of course telepathy and other psychic phenomena do not exist nobody has shown any proof that they are real note that this fallacy does not apply in a court of law where one is generally assumed innocent until proven guilty also in scientific investigation if it is known that an event would produce certain evidence of its having occurred the absence of such evidence can validly be used to infer that the event did not occur for example a flood as described in the bible would require an enormous volume of water to be present on the earth the earth does not have a tenth as much water even if we count that which is frozen into ice at the poles therefore no such flood occurred in science we can validly assume from lack of evidence that something has not occurred we cannot conclude with certainty that it has not occurred however argumentum ad misericordiam this is the appeal to pity also known as special pleading the fallacy is committed when the arguer appeals to pity for the sake of getting a conclusion accepted for example i did not murder my mother and father with an axe please don t find me guilty i m suffering enough through being an orphan argumentum ad populum this is known as appealing to the gallery or appealing to the people to commit this fallacy is to attempt to win acceptance of an assertion by appealing to a large group of people this form of fallacy is often characterized by emotive language for example pornography must be banned it is violence against women the bible must be true millions of people know that it is are you trying to tell them that they are all mistaken fools argumentum ad numeram this fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum it consists of asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition the more likely it is that that proposition is correct argumentum ad verecundiam the appeal to authority uses the admiration of the famous to try and win support for an assertion for example isaac newton was a genius and he believed in god this line of argument is not always completely bogus for example reference to an admitted authority in a particular field may be relevant to a discussion of that subject for example we can distinguish quite clearly between stephen hawking has concluded that black holes give off radiation and john searle has concluded that it is impossible to build an intelligent computer hawking is a physicist and so we can reasonably expect his opinions on black hole radiation to be informed searle is a linguist so it is questionable whether he is well qualified to speak on the subject of machine intelligence the fallacy of accident the fallacy of accident is committed when a general rule is applied to a particular case whose accidental circumstances mean that the rule is inapplicable it is the error made when one goes from the general to the specific for example christians generally dislike atheists you are a christian so you must dislike atheists this fallacy is often committed by moralists and legalists who try to decide every moral and legal question by mechanically applying general rules converse accident hasty generalization this fallacy is the reverse of the fallacy of accident it occurs when one forms a general rule by examining only a few specific cases which are not representative of all possible cases for example jim bakker was an insincere christian therefore all christians are insincere sweeping generalization dicto simpliciter a sweeping generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a particular situation in which the features of that particular situation render the rule inapplicable a sweeping generalization is the opposite of a hasty generalization non causa pro causa post hoc ergo propter hoc these are known as false cause fallacies the fallacy of non causa pro causa occurs when one identifies something as the cause of an event but it has not actually been shown to be the cause for example i took an aspirin and prayed to god and my headache disappeared so god cured me of the headache the fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc occurs when something is assumed to be the cause of an event merely because it happened before the event for example the soviet union collapsed after taking up atheism therefore we must avoid atheism for the same reasons cum hoc ergo propter hoc this fallacy is similar to post hoc ergo propter hoc it asserts that because two events occur together they must be causally related and leaves no room for other factors that may be the cause s of the events petitio principii this fallacy occurs when the premises are at least as questionable as the conclusion reached circulus in demonstrando this fallacy occurs when one assumes as a premise the conclusion which one wishes to reach often the proposition will be rephrased so that the fallacy appears to be a valid argument for example homosexuals must not be allowed to hold government office hence any government official who is revealed to be a homosexual will lose his job therefore homosexuals will do anything to hide their secret and will be open to blackmail therefore homosexuals cannot be allowed to hold government office note that the argument is entirely circular the premise is the same as the conclusion an argument like the above has actually been cited as the reason for the british secret services official ban on homosexual employees another example is the classic we know that god exists because the bible tells us so and we know that the bible is true because it is the word of god complex question fallacy of interrogation this is the fallacy of presupposition one example is the classic loaded question have you stopped beating your wife the question presupposes a definite answer to another question which has not even been asked this trick is often used by lawyers in cross examination when they ask questions like where did you hide the money you stole similarly politicians often ask loaded questions such as how long will this ec interference in our affairs be allowed to continue or does the chancellor plan two more years of ruinous privatization ignoratio elenchi the fallacy of irrelevant conclusion consists of claiming that an argument supports a particular conclusion when it is actually logically nothing to do with that conclusion for example a christian may begin by saying that he will argue that the teachings of christianity are undoubtably true if he then argues at length that christianity is of great help to many people no matter how well he argues he will not have shown that christian teachings are true sadly such fallacious arguments are often successful because they arouse emotions which cause others to view the supposed conclusion in a more favourable light equivocation equivocation occurs when a key word is used with two or more different meanings in the same argument for example what could be more affordable than free software but to make sure that it remains free that users can do what they like with it we must place a license on it to make sure that will always be freely redistributable amphiboly amphiboly occurs when the premises used in an argument are ambiguous because of careless or ungrammatical phrasing accent accent is another form of fallacy through shifting meaning in this case the meaning is changed by altering which parts of a statement are emphasized for example consider we should not speak ill of our friends and we should not speak ill of our friends fallacies of composition one fallacy of composition is to conclude that a property shared by the parts of something must apply to the whole for example the bicycle is made entirely of low mass components and is therefore very lightweight the other fallacy of composition is to conclude that a property of a number of individual items is shared by a collection of those items for example a car uses less petrol and causes less pollution than a bus therefore cars are less environmentally damaging than buses fallacy of division the fallacy of division is the opposite of the fallacy of composition like its opposite it exists in two varieties the first is to assume that a property of some thing must apply to its parts for example you are studying at a rich college therefore you must be rich the other is to assume that a property of a collection of items is shared by each item for example ants can destroy a tree therefore this ant can destroy a tree the slippery slope argument this argument states that should one event occur so will other harmful events there is no proof made that the harmful events are caused by the first event for example if we legalize marijuana then we would have to legalize crack and heroin and we ll have a nation full of drug addicts on welfare therefore we cannot legalize marijuana a is based on b fallacies is a type of fallacies these fallacies occur when one attempts to argue that things are in some way similar without actually specifying in what way they are similar examples isn t history based upon faith if so then isn t the bible also a form of history islam is based on faith christianity is based on faith so isn t islam a form of christianity cats are a form of animal based on carbon chemistry dogs are a form of animal based on carbon chemistry so aren t dogs a form of cat affirmation of the consequent this fallacy is an argument of the form a implies b b is true therefore a is true to understand why it is a fallacy examine the truth table for implication given earlier denial of the antecedent this fallacy is an argument of the form a implies b a is false therefore b is false again the truth table for implication makes it clear why this is a fallacy note that this fallacy is different from non causa pro causa the latter has the form a implies b a is false therefore b is false where a does not in fact imply b at all here the problem is not that the implication is invalid rather it is that the falseness of a does not allow us to deduce anything about b converting a conditional this fallacy is an argument of the form if a then b therefore if b then a argumentum ad antiquitam this is the fallacy of asserting that something is right or good simply because it is old or because that s the way it s always been argumentum ad novitam this is the opposite of the argumentum ad antiquitam it is the fallacy of asserting that something is more correct simply because it is new or newer than something else argumentum ad crumenam the fallacy of believing that money is a criterion of correctness that those with more money are more likely to be right argumentum ad lazarum the fallacy of assuming that because someone is poor he or she is sounder or more virtuous than one who is wealthier this fallacy is the opposite of the argumentum ad crumenam argumentum ad nauseam this is the incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true the more often it is heard an argumentum ad nauseum is one that employs constant repetition in asserting something bifurcation also referred to as the black and white fallacy bifurcation occurs when one presents a situation as having only two alternatives where in fact other alternatives exist or can exist plurium interrogationum many questions this fallacy occurs when a questioner demands a simple answer to a complex question non sequitur a non sequitur is an argument where the conclusion is drawn from premises which are not logically connected with it red herring this fallacy is committed when irrelevant material is introduced to the issue being discussed so that everyone s attention is diverted away from the points being made towards a different conclusion reification hypostatization reification occurs when an abstract concept is treated as a concrete thing shifting the burden of proof the burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or proposition shifting the burden of proof a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made the source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise straw man the straw man fallacy is to misrepresent someone else s position so that it can be attacked more easily then to knock down that misrepresented position then to conclude that the original position has been demolished it is a fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that have been made the extended analogy the fallacy of the extended analogy often occurs when some suggested general rule is being argued over the fallacy is to assume that mentioning two different situations in an argument about a general rule constitutes a claim that those situations are analogous to each other this fallacy is best explained using a real example from a debate about anti cryptography legislation i believe it is always wrong to oppose the law by breaking it such a position is odious it implies that you would not have supported martin luther king are you saying that cryptography legislation is as important as the struggle for black liberation how dare you tu quoque this is the famous you too fallacy it occurs when an action is argued to be acceptable because the other party has performed it for instance you re just being randomly abusive so you ve been abusive too
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq overview for new readers archive name atheism overview alt atheism archive name overview last modified april version overview welcome to alt atheism and alt atheism moderated this is the first in a series of regular postings aimed at new readers of the newsgroups many groups of a controversial nature have noticed that new readers often come up with the same questions mis statements or misconceptions and post them to the net in addition people often request information which has been posted time and time again in order to try and cut down on this the alt atheism groups have a series of five regular postings under the following titles alt atheism faq overview for new readers alt atheism faq introduction to atheism alt atheism faq frequently asked questions faq alt atheism faq constructing a logical argument alt atheism faq atheist resources this is article number please read numbers and before posting the others are entirely optional if you are new to usenet you may also find it helpful to read the newsgroup news announce newusers the articles titled a primer on how to work with the usenet community answers to frequently asked questions about usenet and hints on writing style for usenet are particularly relevant questions concerning how news works are best asked in news newusers questions if you are unable to find any of the articles listed above see the finding stuff section below credits these files could not have been written without the assistance of the many readers of alt atheism and alt atheism moderated in particular i d like to thank the following people kck cs cmu edu karl kluge perry dsinc com jim perry netoprwa ncsuvm cc ncsu edu wayne aiken chpetk gdr bath ac uk toby kelsey jkp cs hut fi jyrki kuoppala geoff arnold east sun com geoff arnold torkel sics se torkel franzen kmldorf utdallas edu george kimeldorf roe quads uchicago edu greg roelofs arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann j j psuvm psu edu john a johnson dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham mayne open cs fsu edu william mayne ajr bigbird hri com andy rosen stoesser ira uka de achim stoesser bosullvn unix tcd ie bryan o sullivan lippard ccit arizona edu james j lippard s b rigel tamu edu s baum ydobyns phoenix princeton edu york h dobyns schroede sdsc edu wayne schroeder baldwin csservera usna navy mil j d baldwin d nibby unhh unh edu dana nibby dempsey kodak com richard c dempsey jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john david munch pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley rz mips complang tuwien ac at richard zach tycchow math mit edu tim chow simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale and countless others i ve forgotten these articles are free truly free you may copy them and distribute them to anyone you wish however please send any changes or corrections to the author and please do not re post copies of the articles to alt atheism it does nobody any good to have multiple versions of the same document floating around the network finding stuff all of the faq files should be somewhere on your news system here are some suggestions on what to do if you can t find them check the newsgroup alt atheism look for subject lines starting with alt atheism faq check the newsgroup news answers for the same subject lines if you don t find anything in steps or your news system isn t set up correctly and you may wish to tell your system administrator about the problem if you have anonymous ftp access connect to rtfm mit edu go to the directory pub usenet alt atheism and you ll find the latest versions of the faq files there ftp is a a way of copying files between networked computers if you need help in using or getting started with ftp send e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers ftp list faq in the body there are other sites which also carry news answers postings the article introduction to the news answers newsgroup carries a list of these sites the article is posted regularly to news answers if you don t have ftp send mail to mail server rtfm mit edu consisting of the following lines send usenet news answers finding sources send usenet alt atheism faq send usenet alt atheism introduction send usenet alt atheism logic send usenet alt atheism resources penultimate resort send mail to mail server mantis co uk consisting of the following lines send atheism faq faq txt send atheism faq logic txt send atheism faq intro txt send atheism faq resource txt and our poor overworked modems will try and send you a copy of the files there s other stuff too interesting commands to try are help and send atheism index last resort mail mathew mantis co uk or post an article to the newsgroup asking how you can get the faq files you should only do this if you ve tried the above methods and they ve failed it s not nice to clutter the newsgroup or people s mailboxes with requests for files it s better than posting without reading the faq though for instance people whose email addresses get mangled in transit and who don t have ftp will probably need assistance obtaining the faq files mathew
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt from bake timmons timmbake mcl ucsb edu these bible lovers have got to chill out if we all could just relax and see atheism for what it is the funny pages could have more material atheism denies the existence of god this is logically bankrupt where is the proof of this nonexistence it s a joke so nobody can take the above sense of atheism seriously perhaps perhaps because you just made it up now put your skateboard away and read the faq learn something about atheism before you get off on these tangents
alt.atheism	re so help you god in court i don t think there is really any question about which god the courts mean the request for solemnly swearing so help you god is always made after a request to pick up the bible in your left hand and hold up your right hand in the courts of nc at least it is always an old and new testament though it is hard to imagine picking up the bible and swearing to whatever god is sometimes the least of the religious influence there is a court in greensboro nc where the judge routinely has everyone in the courtroom stand to join him in prayer at the beginning of every session i ve thought about sitting through it but i m not terribly anxious to spend days in jail
alt.atheism	re nicknames in article apr zeus calpoly edu jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john munch wrote mathew faq can t remember his last name keith lie tally sig ryan kent finn tastic sandvick cindy popsicle toes kandolf jim face sig tims simon clip that theist clippendale umar reasonable khan rob argue with g d strom dave buckminster fuller maddi never a useful post hausmann hey what about an affectionate nickname for me you could take my wrongly spelled surname cheers kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes atheism denies the existence of god this is logically bankrupt where is the proof of this nonexistence it s a joke this is one of my favorite fallacious points against atheism i e the belief that you can t deny anything that you can t prove doesn t exist this is easily nailed by showing that an infinite number of beings are conceivable but not observed to exist does this mean that we would have to believe in all of them according to the above poster we must believe in objects or beings that haven t been proved not to exist so why stop at god there could be a huge number of beings identical to ronald reagan except for trivial differences say one is missing a finger one has blond hair and they all live on other planets so we can t see them the reason no one but atheists bring this up is that none of these christians have a vested interest in these unknown beings with the exception of god fine but why do these people shoot themselves in the foot and mock the idea of a god here again is a classic atheist fallacy how did they shoot themselves in the foot radical muslims the crusades the inquisition are common examples that atheists like to bring up as marks against religion how weak only fools can take that drivel seriously how about the grand daddy of all human atrocities the stalinist movement twenty eight million people killed under this leadership which proudly featured atheism there is a big difference here stalin didn t say that he stood for a particular moral position i e against murder and terrorism etc and then did the opposite like the religious movements he was at least an honest killer this is not a support of stalin but an attack on this viewpoint saying that atheism supports murder and violence just because one man was a tyrant and an atheist is just bad logic look at all the russians that helped stalin that weren t atheists don t they contradict your point besides your point assumes that his atheism was relevant to his murdering people this is just the common assumption that atheists can t value life as much as theists which you didn t support agnostics are not as funny because they are more reasonable yet they do in some sense seem funny because they believe that the existence of god is unknowable this in itself is every bit the assumption that atheism is though it s less arrogant and pompous ah and here s another point you didn t get out of the faq an atheist doesn t have to hold the positive view that god doesn t exist he she may just have the non existence of the positive belief here s the example strong atheism i believe god does not exist a positive belief weak atheism i don t believe in a god a negative belief these are not the same some one that has never thought of the idea of god in their whole life is technically an atheist but not the kind that you are calling unreasonable or let s look at it this way in sets suppose that a given person has a huge set of ideas that i will represent as capital letters and these people then either believe that these ideas exist as real objects or not so if s santa then e s no is the person not believing in santa but still having the idea of santa but notice that even e s no is itself another idea this means you have lots of cases christian a e a yes b e b no g e g yes where g god atheist strong a e a g e g no atheist weak a e i e no g at all in the set agnostic a g e g indeterminate e why are people so afraid to say undecided it must just be another feature of human nature undecided is not a sexy trendy or glamorous word it does not inspire much hate or conflict it s not blasphemous it s not political in fact it is too often taken to mean unsophisticated nietzsche once said that a man would rather will nonexistence than not will at all but the darwinist way to put this is that humanity always prefers no or yes to a maybe because indecision is not a useful survival trait evolution has drilled it in us to take positions even false ones bake timmons iii m s
alt.atheism	christian morality is in vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes in article c l ey jts news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes actually my atheism is based on ignorance ignorance of the existence of any god don t fall into the atheists don t believe because of their pride mistake how do you know it s based on ignorance couldn t that be wrong why would it be wrong to fall into the trap that you mentioned if i m wrong god is free at any time to correct my mistake that he continues not to do so while supposedly proclaiming his undying love for my eternal soul speaks volumes what are the volumes that it speaks besides the fact that he leaves your choices up to you as for the trap you are not in a position to tell me that i don t believe in god because i do not wish to unless you can know my motivations better than i do myself you should believe me when i say that i earnestly searched for god for years and never found him i definitely agree that it s rather presumptuous for either side to give some psychological reasoning for another s belief mac bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	re koresh is god from mathew mathew mantis co uk the latest news seems to be that koresh will give himself up once he s finished writing a sequel to the bible in article p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes writing the seven seals or something along those lines he s already written the first of the seven which was around pages or so and has handed it over to an assistant for proofreading i would expect any decent messiah to have a built in spellchecker maybe koresh will come with one i heard he had asked the fbi to provide him with a word processor does anyone know if koresh has requested that it be wordperfect wp was written and is owned by mormons so the theological implications of requesting or refusing wp are profound darin wilkins scubed scubed com i will be president for food
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article pts psuvm psu edu pts psuvm psu edu writes pitt vs penn state controversy deleted bringing this back to alt atheism relevance so the guy says we re going to hell that isn t sufficient cause to bitch to the system operator at worst it s bad etiquette unless you really believe that someone is using his account without his knowledge permission which is actually against the law patrick saxton pitt is a second rate school in a second rate city pts psuvm psu edu anon pts ecl psu edu ob atheism in batman we trust no it wouldn t be sufficient cause to bitch to the system operator if this was just some guy saying that atheists are going to hell the point was that recently many messages were posted from that address each of these messages was posted to a different newsgroup with the apparent intent of provoking the readers of that particular group this along with the fact that these posts were written in all caps makes these posts suspect whoever is using this account is using it irresponsibly if it is the intended user they should consider appropriate action if it is someone else which seems a possibility then this is also reason to report it we get many posts in the flavor of the one that started this thread it is only because i have seen posts on other groups by this user that i am considering action brendan
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics thanks to whoever posted this wonderful parody of people who post without reading the faq i was laughing for a good minutes were there any parts of the faq that weren t mentioned i think there might have been one or two please don t tell me this wasn t a joke i m not ready to hear that yet brendan
alt.atheism	re is morality constant was re biblical rape bill conner bil okcforum osrhe edu wrote there are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread that are a little confusing an atheist is one for whom all things can be understood as processes of nature exclusively this definition does not include all atheists see the faq however i for one do think there is no need to invoke any divine or spiritual explanations it makes a big difference to claim that all things can be understood as natural processes and to claim that our observations do not require us to postulate any divine intervention or anything spiritual for that matter humans are not omnipotent and neither is science however science has one advantage theology doesn t it is self correcting with nature as its judge it is delightful to see how scientific inquiry is revealing a self consistent simple picture of our universe science is no longer a bunch of separate branches it is one from particle physics to psychology and no aspect of our life or our universe is safe from its stern and stony eye not even our consciousness there is no need for any recourse to divnity to describe or explain anything there is no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by physics chemistry biology etc everything is random nothing is determnined actually determinism vs indeterminism is a philosophical question and science cannot say whether the whole thing is actually somehow superdeterministic or not i think the question does not have any meaning as far as individual human beings go if their apparent free will is an illusion it does not appear to be so from their perspective bill can you say for sure whether you have a free will or not this would also have to include human intelligence of course and all its products there is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it acquire intelligence it s just a happy accident maybe who are we to tell it seems intelligence is useful when during the history of earth has one species been able to control one third of the whole biosphere this can still be a result of numerous happy accidents our genetic machinery blindly replicates and preserves even that machinery can be result of the same principle only the systems that can start replicating will survive those which don t don t make it recommended reading t o for an atheist no event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less value than another in any naturalistic sense and no thought about an event can have value from whose perspective i value events and things subjectively from my perspective nature does not have values because it does not have a perspective values arise from awareness if i have a subjective perspective it is easy to assume that other people also do and if i think about what it would it be like in their position i will eventually discover the golden rule morality is not necessarily a gift from heavens in fact it may be a product of evolution perhaps we are aware of ourselves because a sense of identity is helpful allows us to play the roles of others and make us respect others who seem to have identity too bill have you ever read aristotle try his ethica nikomakhea sp for starters how then can an atheist judge value what is the basis for criticizing the values ennumerated in the bible or the purposes imputed to god on what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned it seems that in judging the values that motivate others to action you have to have some standard against which conduct is measured but what in nature can serve that purpose what law of nature can you invoke to establish your values c s lewis tells us that this argument was the main reason why he abandoned his atheism and became christian the argument is severely flawed some values such as the golden rule can have a rational basis some others like the basic idea of wanting to live has probably its roots in the way our brains are wired lewis ignored the very real possiblity that natural selection could also favour altruistic behaviour and morality as well indeed as humans evolved better and better in building and using tools they also became better at killing each other it is a logical necessity that evolution could only favour those who knew how to use tools but not against one s own people the bible reveals quite nicely that the morality of the early jews was not beyond this a simple set of rules to hold the people together under one god their god did not care much about people of other nations at the time of the nt things were quite different the jews were under rule of an empire and could no longer simply ignore the gentiles a new situation required a new morality and along with it a new religion was born a mutation in a meme pool since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event what difference could it possibly make what anyone does religious or otherwise there can be no meaning or gradation of value the only way an atheist can object to any behaviour is to admit that the objection is entirely subjective and that he she just doesn t like it that s it any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries no weight in any absolute sense it looks like you haven t bothered to read philosophy whenever there is an observer there is a subjective point of view which may value its existence and happiness even if that were just a result of some physical event and other s happiness too if the observer comes to think about it in an absolutely objective sense that is without any observers or subjects moral judgments lose their meaning it is not possible for a value to simply exist without a point of view this includes gods too their values are only their personal judgments not absolute truths since such truths do not exist the fact that most people do not deliberately want to hurt others is a manifestation of the way we have fought for our existence by becoming social beings who can think and value others existence morality is not property of humans alone chimps dolphins and many other species show great care for each other dolphins have sometimes saved humans from drowning a good deed indeed that you don t like what god told people to do says nothing about god or god s commands it says only that there was an electrical event in your nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled with a pre existing thought set to form that reaction that your objections seem well founded is due to the way you ve been conditioned there is no truth content the whole of your intellectual landscape is an illusion a virtual reality the last statement does not logically follow in fact there is every reason to believe our thoughts can model reality very well and our senses can convey reliable information solipsism is still a logical possibility but not a very likely one you are continuously mixing two different views the subjective point of view which we all share and an objective point of view which does not exist any observer or thinker any personal being has its own point of view it does not matter whether this point of view is a result of some physical events or not it does not cease to be subjective from a non observers non point of view values do not exist neither does pain or pleasure or beauty or love such things are inherently subjective once again if god wants wives to submit to their husbands or even to make a leap of faith into the unknown or wants to punish us if we don t i disagree with his morals i do not think my morals come from any supreme being to remove my morals means the same than to make me a zombie a machine without a single thought if god gave us morality to judge but i disagree with him it is not my fault he is free to replace my morals i cannot see what is the point of giving someone a moral system which disagrees with one s own and then to get mad at this god must be schizophrenic all of this being so you have excluded yourself from any discussion of values right wrong goood evil etc and cannot participate your opinion about the bible can have no weight whatsoever neither can the opinion of any god for that matter i cannot understand why a subjective opinion of a thing made of matter is in any way less credible than an opinion of a thing made of something else bill take note absolute values must be independent of any being including gods if god has a subjective viewpoint it is his own point of view and his morals are his own petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes i am refuting nothing but simply telling you what i see which is childish propaganda and nothing to be refuted bcci was not an islamic bank so this post has nothing to do with islamic banks i am tiring of this infantile garbage so i simply evaluated it as such could you maybe flesh it out just a bit or did i miss the full grandeur of it s content by virtue of my blinding atheism you may be having difficulty seeing the light because you have your head up your ass i suggest making sure this is not the case before posting again it s time for your lesson in debate gregg yeah right begin included text from vice news tek com uunet psinntp wrldlnk usenet sun apr pdt i noticed a post on this topic in soc religion islam and since the topic of the bcci being not being an islamic bank has come up i have left in the one mention of the bcci bank called how bcci adapted the koran rules of banking from this bibliography bennett neil how bcci adapted the koran rules of banking the times august so let s see if some guy writes a piece with a title that implies something is the case then it must be so is that it this is how you support a position if you intend to have anyone respect it gregg any questions and i even managed to include the above reference with my head firmly engaged in my ass what s your excuse this supports nothing i have no reason to believe that this is piece is anything other than another anti islamic slander job i have no respect for titles only for real content i can look up this article if i want true but i can tell you bcci was not an islamic bank seeing as i m spending my time responding to propaganda in responding to this little sub thread i really don t feel a deep need to do more than make statements to the effect that the propaganda is false if someone wants to discuss the issue more seriously then i d be glad to have a real discussion providing references etc gregg
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes rule don t mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination by the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic to his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions of his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone be worse than that you re right and david koresh claimed to be a christian
alt.atheism	re some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy find an encyclopedia volume h now look up hitler adolf he had many more people than just germans enamoured with him p moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive p a u l m o l o n e y come let us retract the foreskin of misconception james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush of enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
alt.atheism	re the pope is jewish west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the pope is jewish i guess they re right and i always thought that the thing on his head was just a fancy hat not a jewish headpiece i don t remember the name it s all so clear now clear as mud as to what that headpiece is by chort crl nmsu edu source ap newswire the vatican home of genetic misfits michael a gillow noted geneticist has revealed some unusual data after working undercover in the vatican for the past years the popehat tm is actually an advanced bone spur reveals gillow in his groundshaking report gillow who had secretly studied the innermost workings of the vatican since returning from vietnam in a wheel chair first approached the scientific community with his theory in the late s the whole hat thing that was just a cover up the vatican didn t want the catholic community tm to realize their leader was hefting nearly kilograms of extraneous bone tissue on the top of his skull notes gillow in his report there are whole laboratories in the vatican that experiment with tissue transplants and bone marrow experiments what started as a genetic fluke in the mid s is now scientifically engineered and bred for the whole bone transplant idea started in the mid sixties inspired by doctor timothy leary transplanting deer bone cells into small white rats gillow is quick to point out the assassination attempt on pope john paul ii and the disappearance of dr leary from the public eye when it becomes time to replace the pope says gillow the old pope and the replacement pope are locked in a padded chamber they butt heads much like male yaks fighting for dominance of the herd the victor emerges and has earned the privilege of inseminating the choir boys p moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive p a u l m o l o n e y come let us retract the foreskin of misconception james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush of enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
alt.atheism	re free moral agency and jeff clark in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes deletion you also said why did millions suffer for what adam and ee did seems a pretty sick way of going about creating a universe i m gonna respond by giving a small theology lesson forgive me i used to be a theology major first of all i believe that this planet is involved in a cosmic struggle the great controversy betweed christ and satan i borrowed a book title god has to consider the interests of the entire universe when making decisions deletion an universe it has created by the way can you tell me why it is less tyrannic to let one of one s own creatures do what it likes to others by your definitions your god has created satan with full knowledge what would happen including every choice of satan can you explain us what free will is and how it goes along with omniscience didn t your god know everything that would happen even before it created the world why is it concerned about being a tyrant when noone would care if everything was fine for them that the whole idea comes from the possibility to abuse power something your god introduced according to your description by the way are you sure that you have read the faq especially the part about preaching benedikt
alt.atheism	re the pope is jewish in article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes last night while watching the a m rebroadcast of jerry springer a talk show i heard this jewel of a thought from a year old racist the focus of this show was on these kids and their hatred for the jewish religion and why some stuff deleted interesting and scary no they went on to say how the jews had killed their god and how in the end of time that all the races would go to their homelands of course they would remain in america which is new jeruselem as it says in gen what another kid said but the rest of the races would go home and then the great battle or plague or whatever revel says would happen and the jews would be killed the most interesting thing about this was that my roomate is catholic and had the kjv of the bible on his desk he immediatly opened it up and began to search for the quoted passages gen rev and john to look for himself and couldn t find what they said they saw i don t know i saw this show a while back and when i heard these kids quote the bible to justify their racist claims i looked up that quote about jesus hating jews since jesus himself was a jew my curiousity had been piqued by such a claim the jist of the passage and i am sorry but i can t recall which passage it was exactly was that jesus was condemning the pharisees for being corrupt of course the pharisees were jewish too but it wasn t jews as a whole that jesus was condemning just the powers that be nancy o connor psychology undergrad the opinions i express simon fraser university are my own burnaby b c canada
alt.atheism	re a silly question on x tianity werdna cco caltech edu andrew tong writes mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes question this attitude god character seems awfully egotistical and proud but christianity tells people to be humble what s the deal well god pretty much has a right to be egotistical and proud i mean he created you doesn t he have the right to be proud of such a job of course people don t have much of a right to be proud what have they accomplished that can match god s accomplishments anyways how do their abilities compare with those of god s we re an imbecile worm of the earth to quote pascal grumblegrumble if you were god and you created a universe wouldn t you be just a little irked if some self organizing cell globules on a tiny planet started thinking they were as great and awesome as you unfortunately the logic falls apart quick all perfect insulted or threatened by the actions of a lesser creature actually by offspring how why shuold any all powerful all perfect feel either proud or offended anything capable of being aware of the relationship of every aspect of every particle in the universe during every moment of time simultaneously should be able to understand the cause of every action of every cell globule on each tniy planet well actually now that i think of it it seems kinda odd that god would care at all about the earth ok so it was a bad example but the amazing fact is that he does care apparently and that he was willing to make some grand sacrifices to ensure our happiness all powerful owner of everything in the universe makes great sacrifices makes a great headline but it doesn t make any sense what did he sacrifice where did it go that he couldn t get it back if he gave something up who d he give it up to chris you guys have fun i m agoin to key west
alt.atheism	re i don t beleive in you either in article apr antioc antioch edu smauldin antioc antioch edu writes i stopped believing in you as well long before the invention of technology god ahhh go back to alt autotheism where you belong brian
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by theism evidence in article qid fct horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes i don t see anything special about theism in general that makes it a particular hazard more so than say stupidity anarchy or patriotism of course it depends on the religion but i see nothing about believing in gods that in and of itself entails or even promotes xenophobia genocide etc if the emphasis is on the in general then of course you re correct since you haven t really said anything if we restrict our observations to practiced religions there are lots of examples of god mandated genocide just ask the canaanites the point is that if you believe in a god and if you believe he has ordered you to eliminate an entire race you will likely make the attempt after all if it was ok in the past it could surely be ok in the present bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re free moral agency and jeff clark in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes this is the reason i like the controversy of post modernism the issues of polarities evil and good are just artificial constructs and they fall apart during a closer inspection the more i look into the notion of a constant struggle between the evil and good forces the more it sounds like a metaphor that people just assume without closer inspection more info please i m not well exposed to these ideas bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article apr news wesleyan edu ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott d sauyet writes in qabe innaff gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu writes chimpanzees fight wars over land but chimps are almost human keith could it be this is the last message from mr schneider and it s more than three days old are these his final words and how many here would find that appropriate or is it just that finals got in the way no the christians were leary of having an atheist spokesman seems so clandestine and all that so they had him removed of course keith is busy explaining to his fellow captives how he isn t really being persecuted since after all they are feeding him and any resistance on his part would only be viewed as trouble making i understand he did make a bit of a fuss when they tatooed in god we trust on his forehead though bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re new member in article c hiew s portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller writes hello i just started reading this group today and i think i am going to be a large participant in its daily postings i liked the section of the faq about constructing logical arguments well done i am an atheist but i do not try to turn other people into atheists i only try to figure why people believe the way they do i don t much care if they have a different view than i do when it comes down to it i could be wrong i am willing to admit the possibility something religious followers dont seem to have the capability to do welcome aboard i notice alot of posts from bobby why does anybody ever respond to his posts he always falls back on the same argument i think you just answered your own question there if the religion is followed it will cause no bad he is right just because an event was explained by a human to have been done in the name of religion does not mean that it actually followed the religion he will always point to the ideal and say that it wasn t followed so it can t be the reason for the event there really is no way to argue with him so why bother sure you may get upset because his answer is blind and not supported factually but he will win every time with his little argument i don t think there will be any postings from me in direct response to one of his most responses were against his postings that spouted the fact that all atheists are fools evil for not seeing how peachy islam is i would leave the pro con arguments of islam to fred rice who is more level headed and seems to know more on the subject anyway happy to be aboard how did you know i was going to welcome you abord dave fuller dfuller portal hq videocart com brian
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article house helios house helios usq edu au ron house writes marshall csugrad cs vt edu kevin marshall writes healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes you might think oh yeah then why didn t god destroy it in the bud before it got to the point it is now with millions through the ages suffering along in life the only answer i know is that satan made the claim that his way was better than god s god is allowing satan the chance to prove that his way is better than god s we all know what that has brought come on god is allowing the wishes of one individual to supercede the well being of billions i seriously doubt it having read the bible twice i never got the impression that god and satan were working in some sort of cooperative arrangement read the book of job oh that was just a bet brian
alt.atheism	re some thoughts i m sold where do i sign up brian the next book charles manson lord lunatic or liar
alt.atheism	re some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed call me a fool but i believe he did heal people anyone who dies for a cause runs the risk of dying for a lie as for people being able to tell if he was a liar well we ve had grifters and charlatans since the beginning of civilization if david copperfield had been the messiah i bet he could have found plenty of believers jesus was hardly the first to claim to be a faith healer and he wasn t the first to be witnessed what sets him apart niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool logical people see this right away rubbish nations have followed crazies liars psychopaths and megalomaniacs throughout history hitler tojo mussolini khomeini qadaffi stalin papa doc and nixon come to mind all from this century koresh is a non issue therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing take a discrete mathematics or formal logic course there are flaws in your logic everywhere and as i m sure others will tell you read the faq some other things to note he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms isaiah and elsewhere in hrs alone this in his betrayal and crucifixion i don t have my bible with me at this moment next time i write i will use it of course you have to believe the bible first just because something is written in the bible does not mean it is true and the age of that tome plus the lack of external supporting evidence makes it less credible so if you do quote from the bible in the future try to back up that quote with supporting evidence otherwise you will get flamed mercilessly i don t think most people understand what a christian is it is certainly not what i see a lot in churches rather i think it should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for god s sake he loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the same hey we can t do it god himself inspires us to turn our lives over to him that s tuff and most people don t want to do it to be a real christian would be something for the strong to persevere at but just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes time we don t rush it in one day christianity is your whole life it is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in a while we box everything into time units such as work at this time sports tv social life god is above these boxes and should be carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for ourselves just like weight lifting or guitar playing eh i don t know how you define the world total but i would imagine a total sacrafice sp of everything for god s sake would involve more than a time commitment you are correct about our tendency to box everything into time units would you explain how one should involove god in sports and hehehe television kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes wait you just said that humans are rarely reasonable doesn t that contradict atheism where everything is explained through logic and reason this is the contradiction in atheism that proves it false bobby mozumder proving the existence of allah does anybody have bobby s post in which he said something like i don t know why there are more men than women in islamic countries maybe it s atheists killing the female children it s my personal favorite sami aario can you see or measure an atom yet you can explode a cc tut fi one sunlight is comprised of many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros in plan from outer space disclaimer i don t agree with eros
alt.atheism	re some thoughts did you read the faqs if no read the faqs if yes you wouldn t have posted such drivel the lord liar or lunatic argument is a false trilemma even if you disprove liar and lunatic which you haven t you have not eliminated the other possibilities such as mistaken misdirected or misunderstood you have arbitrarily set up three and only three possibilities without considering others read a good book on rhetoric and critical thinking if you think the lord liar or lunatic discussion is an example of a good argument you are in need of learning read the faqs again especially constructing a logical argument ignore these instructions at your peril disobeying them leaves you open for righteous flaming maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don t try this at home remember i post professionally
alt.atheism	re slavery was re why is sex only allowed in marriage oh this all sounds so nice everyone helping each other and always smiling and fluffy bunnies everywhere wake up people are just not like that it seems evident from history that no society has succeeded when it had to rely upon the goodwill and unselfishness of the people isn t it obvious from places like iran that even if there are only a few greedy people in society then they are going to be attracted to positions of power sounds like a recipe for disaster looking at historical evidence such perfect utopian islamic states didn t survive i agree people are people and even if you might start an islamic revolution and create this perfect state it takes some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules again cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re slavery was re why is sex only allowed in marriage in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice wrote anyhow on the basis of the apparent success of islamic banks it seems to me that the statement that a zero interest economy cannot survive in today s world may be a bit premature i m sure zero intested economical systems survive on a small scale co ops is not an islamic invention and we have co operatives working all around the world however such systems don t stand the corruption of a large scale operation actually nothing could handle human greed imho not even allah cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re new member in article c hiew s portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller wrote he is right just because an event was explained by a human to have been done in the name of religion does not mean that it actually followed the religion he will always point to the ideal and say that it wasn t followed so it can t be the reason for the event there really is no way to argue with him so why bother sure you may get upset because his answer is blind and not supported factually but he will win every time with his little argument i don t think there will be any postings from me in direct response to one of his hey glad to have some serious and constructive contributors in this newsgroup i agree on the statement above you might argue with bobby for eons and he still does not get it so the best thing is to spare your mental resources to discuss more interesting issues cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article qjfnv ogt horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer wrote does the term hero worship mean anything to you yes worshipping jesus as the super saver is indeed hero worshipping of the grand scale worshipping lenin that will make life pleasant for the working people is eh somehow similar or what i understand that gods are defined to be supernatural not merely superhuman the notion of lenin was on the borderline of supernatural insights into how to change the world he wasn t a communist god but he was the man who gave presents to kids during christmas actually i agree things are always relative and you can t have a direct mapping between a movement and a cause however the notion that communist russia was somewhat the typical atheist country is only something that robertson tilton et rest would believe in those atheists were not true unbelievers huh don t know what they were but they were fanatics indeed cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell wrote first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it makes sense to be one have any of you read tony campollo s book liar lunatic or the real thing i might be a little off on the title but he writes the book anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity in the process he became a christian himself seems he didn t understand anything about realities liar lunatic or the real thing is a very narrow view of the possibilities of jesus message sigh it seems religion makes your mind brain filter out anything that does not fit into your personal scheme so anyone that thinks the possibilities with jesus is bound to the classical lewis notion of liar lunatic or saint is indeed bound to become a christian cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article qjf o t horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qimbe sp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article qif g fp horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qialf p m fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i forget the origin of the quote but i gotta use words when i talk to you an atheist is one who lacks belief in gods yes if so then it s entirely plausible that an atheist could dig lenin or lennon to such an extent that it might be considered worship and still be an atheist anything else seems to be newspeak ask yourself the following question would you regard an ardent nazi as a republican simply because germany no longer had a kaiser no because that s based on false dichotomy there are more options than you present me and that of course is the point you can t simply divide the world into atheists and non atheists on the basis of god belief if all you care about is belief in a supernatural deity and have nothing to say about behaviour then belief in a supernatural being is your criterion but once you start talking about behaviour then someone s suscept ibility to be led by bad people into doing bad things is what you are i assume worried about and in that area what you care about is whether someone is sceptical critical and autonomous on the one hand or gullible excitable and easily led on the other i would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that a person is easily led whether they have a worship or belief in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be beside the point jon
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article edm apr gocart twisto compaq com edm twisto compaq com ed mccreary writes on thu apr gmt bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell said dlb first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it dlb makes sense to be one have any of you read tony campollo s book liar dlb lunatic or the real thing i might be a little off on the title but he dlb writes the book anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity dlb in the process he became a christian himself here we go again just the friendly folks at christian central come to save you
alt.atheism	re islamic genocide in article qjipo pen horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qinmd sp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes at any rate even if your interpretation is correct this does not imply that the killings are religously motivated which was the original poster s seeming claim tricky tricky i m replying to your blanket claim that they are not religiously motivated they aren t irish catholics in the south do not kill irish protestants in the south yet have precisely the same history behind them those who think the killings are religously motivated ignore the rather obvious matter of british occupation partition and misguided patriotism on both sides false dichotomy you claimed the killing were not religiously motivated and i m saying that s wrong i m not saying that each and every killing is religiously motivate as i spelled out in detail the problems fault along the religious divide because at the historical roots of this thing we have a catholic country partitioned and populated by a protestant one the grotesque killing of soldiers and civilians is supposedly motivated by patriotism civil rights issues and revenge it s only difficult to understand insofaras insanity is hard to understand religion need not be invoked to explain it does anyone else see the contradiction in this paragraph but to claim that the killings in n i are not religously motivated is grotesque all that means is that the church and believers are doing what they always do with history they can t face they rewrite it you re attacking a different claim my claim is that when an ira terrorist plants a bomb in warrington s he does not have as a motive the greater glory of god sorry frank but what i put in quotes is your own words from your posting qi b ec horus ap mchp sni de don t tell us now that it s a different claim if you can no longer stand behind your original claim just say so jon
alt.atheism	re i don t beleive in you either in article apr antioc antioch edu smauldin antioc antioch edu writes i stopped believing in you as well long before the invention of technology god don t listen to this guy he s just a crank at first this business about being the one true god was tolerated by the rest of us but now it has gotten completely out of hand besides it really isn t so bad when people stop believing in you it s much more relaxing when mortals aren t always begging you for favors zeus
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes if i state that i know that there is a green marble in a closed box which i have never seen nor have any evidence for its existance i would be guilty of deceit even if there is in fact a green marble inside the question of whether or not there is a green marble inside is irrelevent you go ahead and play with your marbles i love it i love it i love it wish i could fit all that into a sig file if someone is keeping a list of bobby quotes be sure to include this one stating an unproven opinion as a fact is deceit and knowingly being decietful is a falsehood and a lie so why do you think its an unproven opinion if i said something as fact but you think its opinion because you do not accept it then who s right the flat earthers state that the earth is flat is a fact i don t accept this i think it s an unproven opinion and i think the round earthers are right because they have better evidence than the flat earthers do although i can t prove that a god doesn t exist the arguments used to support a god s existence are weak and often self contradictory and i m not going to believe in a god unless someone comes over to me and gives me a reason to believe in a god that i absolutely can t ignore a while ago i read an interesting book by a fellow called von daenicken in which he proved some of the wildest things and on the last page he wrote something like can you prove it isn t so i certainly can t but i m not going to believe him because he based his proof on some really questionable stuff such as old myths he called it circumstancial evidence so far atheism hasn t made me kill anyone and i m regarded as quite an agreeable fellow really sami aario can you see or measure an atom yet you can explode a cc tut fi one sunlight is comprised of many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros in plan from outer space disclaimer i don t agree with eros
alt.atheism	islamic authority sic over women who kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan what kmr po cwru edu with rush leland stanford edu what apr leland stanford edu other readers i just joined but is this guy for real i m simply amazed kr sadly yes don t loose any sleep over old zlumber just kr have some fun with him but he is basically harmless kr at least if you don t work in ny city i don t find it hard to believe that ole zlumber really believes the hate and ignorant prattle he writes the frightening thought is there are people even worse than he to say that feminism equals superiority over men is laughable as long as he doesn t then proceed to pick up a rifle and start to shoot women as a preemptive strike aka the canada slaughter that occured a few years ago but then men killing women is nothing new islamic fundamentalists just have a better excuse qu ran from the vancouver sun thursday october by john davidson canadian press montreal perhaps it s the letter to the five year old daughter that shocks the most i hope one day you will be old enough to understand what happened to your parents wrote patrick prevost i loved your mother with a passion that went as far as hatred police found the piece of paper near prevost s body in his apartment in northeast montreal they say the year old mechanic committed suicide after killing his wife jocelyne parent the couple had been separated for a month and the woman had gone to his apartment to talk about getting some more money for food a violent quarrel broke out and prevost attacked his wife with a kitchen knife cutting her throat police said she was only the latest of women slain by a husband or lover in quebec in the last five weeks five children have also been slain as a result of the same domestic battles last year in quebec alone women were slain by their husbands that was more than one third of such cases across canada according to statistics from the canadian centre for justice rest of article ommited then to say that women are somehow better or should be the one to stay home and raise a child is also laughable women have traditionally done hard labor to support a family often more than men in many cultures throughout history seems to me it takes at least two adults to raise a child and that both should stay home to do so maximus wb
alt.atheism	re feminism and islam again in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes in article apr eagle wesleyan edu kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu writes there s a way around that via the hadith which state that silence is taken to mean yes and that women may not speak before a judge who must conduct the marriage actaully that s a false hadith because it contradicts verses in the quran that says women may testify speak before a judge hadiths are declared false when they contradict the quran hadiths weren t written during the revelation or during the life of the prophet and so may contain errors so the only way you can tell a false hadith from a true one is if it contradicts the quran what if it relates to something that isn t explicitly spelled out in the quran also the quran wasn t written down during the life of muhammed either it wasn t long after but years or so is still long enough to shift a few verses around karl lastly i come to china in the hope all you touch and all you see of fulfilling a lifelong ambition is all your life will ever be dropping acid on the great wall duke pink floyd a lie is still a lie even if billion people believe it
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr abo fi mandtbacka finabo abo fi mats andtbacka writes in qie fkt horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp writes in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes i m one of those people who does not know what the word objective means when put next to the word morality i assume its an idiom and cannot be defined by its separate terms give it a try objective morality is morality built from objective values and these objective values are please be specific and more importantly motivate i ll take a wild guess and say freedom is objectively valuable i base this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition almost all would want to complain therefore i take it that to assert or believe that freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on a rainy day i take this to be a candidate for an objective value and it it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values such as this exist frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes in article c c cn gb ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes i just borrowed a book from the library on khomeini s fatwa etc i found this useful passage regarding the legitimacy of the fatwa it was also common knowledge as prescribed by islamic law that the sentence was only applicable where the jurisdiction of islamic law applies moreover the sentence has to be passed by an islamic court and executed by the state machinery through the due process of the law even in islamic countries let alone in non muslim lands individuals cannot take the law into their own hands the sentence when passed must be carried out by the state through the usual machinery and not by individuals indeed it becomes a criminal act to take the law into one s own hands and punish the offender unless it is in the process of self defence moreover the offender must be brought to the notice of the court and it is the court who shoud decide how to deal with him this law applies equally to muslim as well as non muslim territories i agree fully with the above statement and is precisely what i meant by my previous statements about islam not being anarchist and the law not being enforcible despite the law being applicable hence on such clarification from the ulama islamic scholars muslims in britain before and after imam khomeini s fatwa made it very clear that since islamic law is not applicable to britain the hadd compulsory punishment cannot be applied here i disagree with this conclusion about the applicability of the islamic law to all muslims wherever they may be the above conclusion does not strictly follow from the foregoing but only the conclusion that the fatwa cannot be enforced according to islamic law however i do agree that the punishment cannot be applied to rushdie even were it well founded wow from the above it looks like that from an islamic viewpoint khomeini s fatwa constitutes a criminal act perhaps i could even go out on a limb and call khomeini a criminal on this basis certainly putting a price on the head of rushdie in britain is a criminal act according to islamic law anyhow i think it is understood by knowledgeable muslims that khomeini s fatwa is islamically illegitimate at least on the basis expounded above others such as myself and others who have posted here particularly umar khan and gregg jaeger i think go further and say that even the punishment constituted in the fatwa is against islamic law according to our understanding yes gregg
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice wrote it is my understanding that it is generally agreed upon by the ulema islamic scholars that islamic law applies only in an islamic country of which the uk is not furthermore to take the law into one s own hands is a criminal act as these are matters for the state not for individuals nevertheless khomeini offered a cash prize for people to take the law into their own hands something which to my understanding is against islamic law yes this is also my understanding of the majority of islamic laws however i believe there are also certain legal rulings which in all five schools of law sunni and jaffari can be levelled against muslim or non muslims both within and outside dar al islam i do not know if apostasy when accompanied by active persistent and open hostility to islam falls into this category of the law i do know that historically apostasy has very rarely been punished at all let alone by the death penalty my understanding is that khomeini s ruling was not based on the law of apostasy alone it was well known that rushdie was an apostate long before he wrote the offending novel and certainly there is no precedent in the qur an hadith or in islamic history for indiscriminantly levelling death penalties for apostasy i believe the charge levelled against rushdie was that of fasad this ruling applies both within and outside the domain of an islamic state and it can be carried out by individuals the reward was not offered by khomeini but by individuals within iran stuff deleted also i think you are muddying the issue as you seem to assume that khomeini s fatwa was issued due to the distribution of the book my understanding is that khomeini s fatwa was issued in response to the writing and publishing of the book if my view is correct then your viewpoint that rushdie was sentenced for a crime in progress is incorrect i would concur that the thrust of the fatwa from what i remember was levelled at the author and all those who assisted in the publication of the book however the charge of fasad can encompass a number of lesser charges i remember that when diplomatic relations broke off between britain and iran over the fatwa iran stressed that the condemnation of the author and the removal of the book from circulation were two preliminary conditions for resolving the crisis but you are correct to point out that banning the book was not the main thrust behind the fatwa islamic charges such as fasad are levelled at people not books the rushdie situation was followed in iran for several months before the issuance of the fatwa rushdie went on a media blitz presenting himself as a lone knight guarding the sacred values of secular democracy and mocking the foolish concerns of people crazy enough to actually hold their religious beliefs as sacred fanning the flames and milking the controversy to boost his image and push the book he was everywhere in the media then muslim demonstrators in several countries were killed while protesting against the book rushdie appeared momentarily concerned then climbed back on his media horse to once again attack the muslims and defend his sacred rights it was at this point that the fatwa on fasad was issued the fatwa was levelled at the person of rushdie any actions of rushdie that feed the situation contribute to the legitimization of the ruling the book remains in circulation not by some independant will of its own but by the will of the author and the publishers the fatwa against the person of rushdie encompasses his actions as well the crime was certainly a crime in progress at many levels and was being played out and played up in the the full view of the media p s i m not sure about this but i think the charge of shatim also applies to rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella of the fasad ruling
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law what about the twelve imams who he considered incapable of error or sin khomeini supports this view of the twelve imans this is heresy for the very reasons i gave above i would be happy to discuss the issue of the imams with you although my preference would be to move the discussion to another newsgroup i feel a philosophy or religion group would be more appropriate the topic is deeply embedded in the world view of islam and the esoteric teachings of the prophet s a heresy does not enter into it at all except for those who see islam only as an exoteric religion that is only nominally if at all concerned with the metaphysical substance of man s being and nature a good introductory book in fact one of the best introductory books to islam in general is murtaza mutahhari s fundamental s of islamic thought god man and the universe mizan press translated by r campbell truly a beautiful book a follow up book if you can find a decent translation is wilaya the station of the master by the same author i think it also goes under the title of master and mastership it s a very small book really just a transcription of a lecture by the author the introduction to the beautiful psalms of islam translated by william c chittick available through muhammadi trust of great britain is also an excellent introduction to the subject we have these books in our university library i imagine any well stocked university library will have them from your posts you seem fairly well versed in sunni thought you should seek to know shi ite thought through knowledgeable shi ite authors as well at least that much respect is due before the charge of heresy is levelled as salaam a laikum
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article qif g fp horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qialf p m fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article qi egl horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes stuff deleted to the newsgroup at large how about this for a deal recognise that what happened in former communist russia has as much bearing on the validity of atheism as has the doings of sundry theists on the validity of their theism that s zip nada none the fallacy is known as ad hominem and it s an old one it should be in the holy faq in the book of constructing a logical argument apart from not making a lot of sense this is wrong there is no atheist creed that taught any communist what to do in the name of atheism there clearly are theistic creeds and instructions on how to act for theists they all madly conflict with one another but that s another issue lack of instructions on how to act might also be evil that s like saying that since mathematics includes no instructions on how to act it is evil atheism is not a moral system so why should it speak of instructions on how to act atheism is simply lack of belief in god plenty of theists think so so one could argue the case for atheism causes whatever i didn t like about the former ussr with as much validity as theism causes genocide that is to say no validity at all i think the argument that a particular theist system causes genocide can be made more convincingly than an argument that atheism causes genocide this is because theist systems contain instructions on how to act and one or more of these can be shown to cause genocide however since the atheist set of instructions is the null set how can you show that atheism causes genocide david choweller davec silicon csci csusb edu there are scores of thousands of human insects who are ready at a moment s notice to reveal the will of god on every possible subject george bernard shaw there are scores of thousands of human insects who are ready at a moment s notice to reveal the will of god on every possible subject george bernard shaw
alt.atheism	re the nonexistance of atheists in article bskendigc jcwx jzn netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes s c a quotes deleted it really looks like these people have no idea at all of what it means to be atheist there are more bobby mozumder clones in the world than i thought well that explains some things i posted on soc religion islam with an attached quote by bobby to the effect that all atheists are lying evil scum and asked if it was a commonly held idea among muslims i got no response asking about the unknown i guess karl lastly i come to china in the hope all you touch and all you see of fulfilling a lifelong ambition is all your life will ever be dropping acid on the great wall duke pink floyd a lie is still a lie even if billion people believe it
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes it appears that walla walla college will fill the same role in alt atheist that allegheny college fills in alt fan dan quayle first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it makes sense to be one have any of you read tony campollo s book liar lunatic or the real thing i might be a little off on the title but he writes the book anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity in the process he became a christian himself converts to xtianity have this tendency to excessively darken their pre xtian past frequently falsely anyone who embarks on an effort to destroy xtianity is suffering from deep megalomania a defect which is not cured by religious conversion the arguements he uses i am summing up the book is about whether jesus was god or not i know many of you don t believe but listen to a different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what others have to say different perspective different perspective bwahahahahahahahah the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was sigh perhaps big j was just mistaken about some of his claims perhaps he was normally insightful but had a few off days perhaps many most of the statements attributed to jesus were not made by him but were put into his mouth by later authors other possibilities abound surely someone seriously examining this question could come up with a decent list of possible alternatives unless the task is not serious examination of the question much less destroying xtianity but rather religious salesmanship some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie how many germans died for nazism how many russians died in the name of the proletarian dictatorship how many americans died to make the world safe for democracy what a silly question wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed call me a fool but i believe he did heal people is everyone who performs a healing god niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy it s probably hard to draw an entire nation to you unless you are crazy very doubtful in fact rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool logical people see this right away therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing anyone who is convinced by this laughable logic deserves to be a xtian some other things to note he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms isaiah and elsewhere in hrs alone this in his betrayal and crucifixion i don t have my bible with me at this moment next time i write i will use it don t bother many of the prophecies were fulfilled only in the eyes of xtian apologists who distort the meaning of isaiah and other ot books
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism deletions in apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes i really don t think you can imagine what it is like to be infinite first of all infinity is a mathematical concept created by humans to explain certain things in a certain way we don t know if it actually applies to reality we don t know if anything in the world is infinite it wouldn t be able to comprehend what reality is like for the programmer because that would require an infinite memory or whatever because reality is continuous and based on infinietely small units no units you don t know if the universe is actually continuous continuum is another mathematical concept based on infinity used to explain things in a certain way because humans do not know what infinite is we call it something beyond numbers we call it endless but we do not know what it is i have a pretty good idea of what infinity is it s a man made concept and like many man made concepts it has evolved through time ancient greeks had a different understanding of it so we can call allah infinitely powerful knowledgeable etc yet we cannot imagine what allah actually is because we just cannot imagine what it is like to be infinite precicely we don t even know if infinity applies to reality sami aario can you see or measure an atom yet you can explode a cc tut fi one sunlight is comprised of many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros in plan from outer space disclaimer i don t agree with eros
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article qg g kl fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes you are amazed that i find it difficult to grasp it when people justify death threats against rushdie with the claim he was born muslim this is empty rhetoric i am amazed at your inability to understand what i am saying not that you find it difficult to grasp it when people justify death threats i find it amazing that your ability to consider abstract questions in isolation you seem to believe in the falsity of principles by the consequence of their abuse you must hate physics you re closer than you might imagine i certainly despised living under the soviet regime when it purported to organize society according to what they fondly imagined to be the objective conclusions of marxist dialectic but i don t hate physics so long as some clown doesn t start trying to control my life on the assumption that we are all interchangeable atoms rather than individual human beings jon
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes jeff west writes you claimed that people that took the time to translate the bible would also take the time to get it right but here in less than a couple generations you ve been given ample proof agreed to by yourself above that the new versions tends to be out of step with other modern translations what i said was that people took time to copy the text correctly translations present completely different issues so why do i read in the papers that the qumram texts had different versions of some ot texts did i misunderstand jon
alt.atheism	re note to bobby m in apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes insults about the atheistic genocide was totally unintentional under atheism anything can happen good or bad including genocide and you know why this is because you ve conveniently defined a theist as someone who can do no wrong and you ve defined people who do wrong as atheists the above statement is circular not to mention bigoting and as such has no value sami aario can you see or measure an atom yet you can explode a cc tut fi one sunlight is comprised of many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros in plan from outer space disclaimer i don t agree with eros
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice wrote in article c c cn gb ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes stuff deleted what we should be demanding is for khomeini and his ilk to publicly come clean and to show their proof that islamic law punishes apostacy with death or that it tolerates any similar form of coversion of freedom of conscience all five schools of law to the best of my knowledge support the death sentence for apostasy when it is accompanied by open persistent and aggravated hostility to islam otherwise i agree there is no legal support for punishment of disbelief the qur an makes it clear that belief is a matter of conscience public or private disavowal of islam or conversion to another faith is not punishable there are some jurists who have gone against this trend and insisted that apostasy is punishable even by death but historically they are the exception cursing and insulting the prophets falls under the category of shatim i just borrowed a book from the library on khomeini s fatwa etc lots of stuff deleted and according to the above analysis it looks like khomeini s offering of a reward for rushdie s death in fact constitutes a criminal act according to islamic law please see my post under re yet more rushdie islamic law
alt.atheism	re slavery was re why is sex only allowed in marriage in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes looking at historical evidence such perfect utopian islamic states didn t survive i agree people are people and even if you might start an islamic revolution and create this perfect state it takes some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules again nothing is perfect nothing is perpetual i e even if it is perfect it isn t going to stay that way forever perpetual machines cannot exist i thought that there were some laws in mechanics or thermodynamics stating that not an atheist bn naren bala software evaluation engineer home work all standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article apr news wesleyan edu ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott d sauyet says are these his final words and how many here would find that appropriate or is it just that finals got in the way keep your fingers crossed why should i keep my fingers crossed i doubt it would do anything martin schulte
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qkq t n horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes i ll take a wild guess and say freedom is objectively valuable i base this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition almost all would want to complain therefore i take it that to assert or believe that freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on a rainy day i take this to be a candidate for an objective value and it it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values such as this exist my own personal and highly subjective opinion is that freedom is a good thing however when i here people assert that the only true freedom is in following the words of this and that messiah i realise that people don t even agree on the meaning of the word what does it mean to say that word x represents an objective value when word x has no objective meaning jon
alt.atheism	re where are they now in article qi innf n senator bedfellow mit edu tcbruno athena mit edu tom bruno writes wow leave your terminal for a few months and everyone you remember goes away how depressing actually there are a few familiar faces out there counting bob and kent but i don t seem to recognize anyone else has anyone heard from graham matthews recently or has he gotten his degree and sailed for greener pastures tm which brings me to the point of my posting how many people out there have been around alt atheism since i ve done my damnedest to stay on top of the newsgroup but when you fall behind you really fall behind it s still not as bad as rec arts startrek used to be but i digress has anyone tried to keep up with the deluge inquiring minds want to know also does anyone keep track of where the more infamous posters to alt atheism end up once they leave the newsgroup just curious i guess cheers tom bruno i am one of those people who always willl have unlimited stores of unfounded respect for people who have been on newsgroups mailing lists longer than i have so you certainly have my sympathy tom i have only been semi regularly posting it is toughto keep up since this february but i have been reading and following the threads since last august my school s newsreader was down for months and our incompetent computing services never bothered to find a new feed site so it wasn t accepting outgoing postings i don t think anyone keeps track of where other posters go it s that old love em and leave em internet for you again best regards adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it that s okay it s what all the rest of them who come on here say makes sense to be one have any of you read tony campollo s book liar lunatic or the real thing i might be a little off on the title but he writes the book anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity in the process he became a christian himself this isn t the guy who was a lawyer was he could you give more info on this guy never mind i m sure there will be plenty of responses to this post and it will appear there the arguements he uses i am summing up the book is about whether jesus was god or not i know many of you don t believe but listen to a different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what others have to say this is true make sure it is true for all cases the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a why not both modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar why not die for a lie if you were poverty stricken and alunatic sounds perfecetly reasoable to me as to whether the societal dregs he had for followers would be able to tell if he was a liar or not not necessarily even if he died for what he believed in this still makes him completely selfish like us all so what s the difference people gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed call me a fool but i believe he did heal people there is no historical proof of this see earlier threads besides he or at least his name have been the cause of enough deaths to make up for whatever healing he gave niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy sieg heil very doubtful in fact rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool logical people see this right away who is david koresh i am curious therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing how does this follow your definition of lunatic and disproof thereof seem rather uhhh shaky some other things to note he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms isaiah and elsewhere in hrs alone this in his betrayal and crucifixion i don t have my bible with me at this moment next time i write i will use it good idea i don t think most people understand what a christian is it is certainly not what i see a lot in churches naturally those or not true christians right rather i think it should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for god s sake he loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the same hey we can t do it god himself inspires us to turn our lives over to him that s tuff and most people don t want to do it to be a real christian would be something for the strong to persevere at but just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes time we don t rush it in one day christianity is your whole life it is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in a while we box everything into time units such as work at this time sports tv social life god is above these boxes and should be carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for ourselves someone else handle this i don t know if it s worth it sigh adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians in article apr nuscc nus sg cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan writes sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article q l cva uxa ecn bgu edu gsu uxa ecn bgu edu eric molas wrote christianity is an infectious cult the reasons it flourishes are because it gives people without hope or driven purpose in life a safety blanked to hide behind oh wow all i have to do is follow this christian moral standard and i get eternal happiness i agree that in many cases primitive emotional feelings based on haha you won t laugh in hell mentalities makes certain religions very attractive for certain personalities i agree with both of u but i would like to make a small point xtianity other dogmatic religions not only attract people without hope etc but also attract average people as well i believe that xtainity thru its escapist doctrines absolutist attitudes provides great psychological shelter from day to day frustrations unhappiness fear of uncertainty unknown etc this is a good point but i think average people do not take up christianity so much out of fear or escapism but quite simply as a way to improve their social life or to get more involved with american culture if they are kids of immigrants for example since it is the overwhelming major religion in the western world in some form or other it is simply the choice people take if they are bored and want to do something new with their lives but not somethong too new or too out of the ordinary seems a little weak but as long as it doesn t hurt anybody the buddha had something to say about the attractiveness of religions when driven by fear man worships sacred mountains sacred stones and sacred trees however the buddha also said if somebody finds peace in any religion let him be these are good quotes and i agree with both of them but let s make sure to alter the scond one so that includes something like let him be as long as he is not preventing others from finding their peace or something like that of course i suppose if someone were really at peace there would be no need for inflicting evangelism personally i feel that since religion have such a poweful psychological effect we should let theists be but the problem is that religions cause enormous harm to non believers and to humanity as a whole holy wars inquisitions inter religious hatred impedence of science intellectual progress us them attitudes etc etc need i say more i really don t know what we can do about them any comments well it is a sure thing we will have to live with them all our lives their popularity seems to come and go i remember when i first entered high school i was an atheist always had been and so were about of my friends at this time of those have converted always to christianity they were all also immigrants from taiwan or sons of immigrants hence my earlier gross generalization christianity seems a lot more popular to people now than it ever has before since i ve been noticing maybe it is just my perceptions that are chagning who knows i for one am perfectly willing to live and let live with them so long as we have some set of abstract rights agreements on how we should treat each other i have no desire to be hurt by them or their notions for all the well put arguments on this usenet it never does any good argumentation does not really seem to apply to christians or even some atheists it must simply be a step the person takes naturally almost instinctively best regards adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws the unenlightened one buddhism has the characteristics of what would be tan chade meng expected in a cosmic religion for the future it singapore transcends a personal god avoids dogmas and theology cmtan iss nus sg it covers both the natural spiritual and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity einstein
alt.atheism	re where are they now your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable posts the first i captured was by ken arromdee on feb on the subject re atheist too that was article here your question was article which is an average of about articles a day for the last three years as others have noted the current posting rate is such that my kill file is depressing large among the posting i saved in the early days were articles from the following notables from loren sunlight llnl gov loren petrich from jchrist nazareth israel rel jesus christ of nazareth from mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu mark crispin from perry apollo hp com jim perry from lippard uavax ccit arizona edu james j lippard from minsky media mit edu marvin minsky an interesting bunch i wonder where is geoff arnold pc nfs architect sun select geoff arnold east sun com what if they made the whole thing up the great lie by four guys two thousand years ago over wine the tear garden
alt.atheism	re political atheists kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes i think that you are confusing the words objective and inherent and objective system is simply one in which an outside observer who given the postulates of the system could perfectly judge any situation or action as consistent with the system right or not wrong you seem to be objecting because the goals of the system are not inherent that is you seem to want to define an objective system as one in which the postulates themselves could be determined by some outside observer i don t think that this is a good definition of an objective system then you need to learn english really gravity is an objective system anybody can learn what it is and perform experiments they will get the same results as every other person who has performed those experiments no gravity is an inherent system you don t need any excess information other than observations to determine anything it is possible to objectively determine someone s guilt or innocence within an non inherent system i agree that morality is not necessarily inherent unless you state that everything we do has an evolutionary basis but this does not mean that it cannot be objective in theory this natural morality is not an objective system as evidenced by your comments about lions and mine perhaps it can be objective but not inherent anyway as i noted before the practices related to mating rituals etc among the animals are likely the only ones to be considered immoral under the previous definitions of the natural law therefore some revisions are in order since the class of activities surrounding mating seem to pose some general problems and in fact the only way that the postulates could be determined by an outsider would be if there were some sort of higher truth like some sort of god or something but i do not think that a god is necessary for an objective system while it seems that you do what are you trying to say here it seens that you are objecting to the notion of an objective system because perhaps you think that it would imply inherence which would necessitate some sort of grand design no i have classified behavior of most animals as in line with a moral system it is certainly possible for animals to commit acts which are outside of their rules of ethics but they don t seem to do so very often perhaps they are not intelligent enough to be immoral and perhaps it s because you have yet to define a moral system i think i have it is a code of ethics which basically defines undesired behaviors etc an immoral behavior could be unwanted unproductive or destructive etc depending on the goal of the system that is immoral to what end keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes natural morality may specifically be thought of as a code of ethics that a certain species has developed in order to survive wait are we talking about ethics or morals here is the distinction important we see this countless times in the animal kingdom and such a natural system is the basis for our own system as well huh well our moral system seems to mimic the natural one in a number of ways in order for humans to thrive we seem to need to live in groups here s your problem we seem to need what s wrong with the highlighted word i don t know what is wrong is it possible for humans to survive for a long time in the wild yes it s possible but it is difficult humans are a social animal and that is a cause of our success and in order for a group to function effectively it needs some sort of ethical code this statement is not correct isn t it why don t you think so and by pointing out that a species conduct serves to propogate itself i am not trying to give you your tautology but i am trying to show that such are examples of moral systems with a goal propogation of the species is a goal of a natural system of morality so anybody who lives in a monagamous relationship is not moral after all in order to ensure propogation of the species every man should impregnate as many women as possible no as noted earlier lack of mating such as abstinence or homosexuality isn t really destructive to the system it is a worst neutral for that matter in herds of horses only the dominate stallion mates when he dies is killed whatever the new dominate stallion is the only one who mates these seems to be a case of your natural system of morality trying to shoot itself in the figurative foot again the mating practices are something to be reexamined keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes but chimps are almost human does this mean that chimps have a moral will well chimps must have some system they live in social groups as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes so how do you then explain sudden violent behavior of human beings your theory would state that the more the human is detached from primitive behavior the more violent and non moralistic the human becomes please correct me if my understanding was wrong so you have this bifurcation point where a madman is killing people from the roof of a campus could you explain how your theory explains such a situation madmen are mad do we try to explain the output from a broken computer i think not keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes to show that the examples i and others have provided are not counter examples of your supposed inherent moral hypothesis you have to successfully argue that domestication removes or alters this morality i think that domestication will change behavior to a large degree domesticated animals exhibit behaviors not found in the wild i don t think that they can be viewed as good representatives of the wild animal kingdom since they have been bred for thousands of years to produce certain behaviors etc keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists mmwang adobe com michael wang writes well i have typed in the oed definitions as you will note upon reading them a punishment being an inanimate object is incapable of showing mercy so you can not say that a merciless punishment is a cruel one sorry you must have missed the stuff in parens when you read the definition where transf transferred sense and fig figurative ly things can be cruel samples of text from the first definition include because i would not see thy cruell nailes plucke out his poore old eyes and the puniness of man in the centre of a cruel and frowning universe sure nails can be cruel i d imagine nails in your eyes would be very painful but this does not imply that a painless death is cruel which is what you are supposed to be trying to show keith
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in sfnntrc wbo lruk andrew cmu edu david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu writes after tons of mail could we move this discussion to alt religion yes mac there are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke bob dylan if you were happy every day of your life you wouldn t be a human being you d be a game show host taken from the movie heathers lecture lek chur process by which the notes of the professor become the notes of the student without passing through the minds of either michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in qjahh mrs horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article pww spac at rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter walker writes in article qie fkt horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer wrote objective morality is morality built from objective values but where do those objective values come from how can we measure them what mediated thair interaction with the real world a moralon or a scalar valuino field science the real world has its basis in values not the other way round as you would wish it if there is no such thing as objective value then science can not objectively be said to be more useful than a kick in the head simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively be said to be more useful than a set of tarot cards you like those conclusions i don t and how do we know they exist in the first place one assumes objective reality one doesn t know it frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon how do we measure truth beauty goodness love friendship trust honesty etc if things have no basis in objective fact then aren t we limited in what we know to be true can t we say that we can examples or instances of reason but cannot measure reason or is that semantics mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article qj gq mg horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes is good logic better than bad is good science better than bad by definition great good okay bad horrible better worse good is defined as being better than bad how do we come up with this setup is this subjective if enough people agreed we could switch the order isn t this defining one unknown thing by another that is good is that which is better than bad and bad is that which is worse than good circular mac only when the sun starts to orbit the earth will i accept the bible michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in lsran inn a exodus eng sun com emarsh hernes sun eng sun com eric marsh writes in article c hqxj jdg ux cso uiuc edu lis bw ux cso uiuc edu lis student writes hmmmm define objective morality well depends upon who you talk to some say it means you can t have your hair over your ears and others say it means stryper is acceptable i would say that general principles of objective morality would be listed in one or two places ten commandments sayings of jesus the first depends on whether you trust the bible the second depends on both whether you think jesus is god and whether you think we have accurate copies of the nt gong take a moment and look at what you just wrote first you defined an objective morality and then you qualified this objective morality with subjective justifications do you see the error in this sorry you have just disqualified yourself but please play again mac eric huh please explain is there a problem because i based my morality on something that could be wrong gosh there s a heck of a lot of stuff that i believe that could be wrong and that comes from sources that could be wrong what do you base your belief on atheism on your knowledge and reasoning couldn t that be wrong mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	re islamic genocide o k so pick former yugoslavia instead and say their problems are caused by communism it doesn t really matter but i guess religious leaders are calling for an end to that too so it can t be religiously motivated this despite the fact that the christians carve crosses in dead muslims chests maybe they just want land maybe its something else they want maybe the cross carvings are just accidental i don t know just looks suspicious most likely the tragic situation in bosnia is a combination of ethnical and religious motives where religion is just one attribute that separates the groups from each other but i must agree that the sad saga in bosnia is a terrible example of a case where religion is not helping instead it is used as a weapon against other humans and my sympathies are mostly on the bosnian side it looks like the serbs are the oppressors willing to use even christianity as a weapon against their former friends cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists the death penalty was conceived as a deterrent to crime but the legal shenanigans that have been added automatic appeals lengthy court battles etc have relegated that purpose to a very small part of what it should be hence the question is do we instate the death penalty as it was meant to be and see if that deters crime or do we get rid of it entirely i doubt the death penalty was supposed to be a deterrent to crime if so why doesn t every crime carry a death penalty that would be effictive wouldn t it the death penalty is a punishment much like a fine for speeding is a punishment anyway somebody with murder on the mind doesn t much care about the consequences i think another problem is that people dont think they will get caught if i wanted to kill another person i wouldn t care what the penalty was if i didn t think i would get caught if it was to be strictly a deterrent it should have been more along the lines of torture dave fuller dfuller portal hq videocart com
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan writes personally i feel that since religion have such a poweful psychological effect we should let theists be but the problem is that religions cause enormous harm to non believers and to humanity as a whole holy wars inquisitions inter religious hatred impedence of science intellectual progress us them attitudes etc etc need i say more i really don t know what we can do about them any comments i have always held that there should be no attempt to change a persons attitude or lifestyle as long as it makes them happy and does not tax anybody else this seems to be ok for atheists you don t get an atheist knocking on your door stopping you in the airport or handing out literature at a social event theists seem to think that thier form of happy should work for others and try to make it so my sister is a born again and she was a real thorn in the side for my entire family for several years she finally got the clue that she couldn t help during that period she bought me i was atheist now i m xtian books for my birthday and xmas several times our birthday cards would contain verses it was a problem i told my mom that i was going to send my sister an atheist piece of reading material i got a don t you dare my mom wasn t religious why did she insist that i not send it because our society has driven into us that religion is ok to preach non religion should be self contained what a crock of shit i finally told my sister that i didn t find her way of life attractive i have seen exactly effort from her on trying to convert me since then i m sick of religious types being pampered looked out for and worst of all respected more than atheists there must be an end in sight dave fuller dfuller portal hq videocart com
alt.atheism	re bible quiz kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes would you mind e mailing me the questions with the pairs of answers i would love to have them for the next time a theist comes to my door i d like this too maybe you should post an answer key after a while nanci if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu it is better to be a coward for a minute than dead for the rest of your life
alt.atheism	why the bible one thing i think is interesting about alt athiesm is the fact that without bible thumpers and their ilk this would be a much duller newsgroup it almost needs the deluded masses to write silly things for athiests to tear apart oh well that little tidbit aside here is what i really wanted write about how can anyone believe in such a sorry document as the bible if you want to be religious aren t there more plausable books out there seriously the bible was written by multiple authors who repeatedly contradict each other one minute it tells you to kill your kid if he talks back and the next it says not to kill at all i think that if xtians really want to follow a deity they should pick one that can be consistent unlike the last one they invented for people who say jesus was the son of god didn t god say not to ever put anyone else before him looks like you did just that didn t god say not to make any symbols or idols what are crosses then don t you think that if you do in fact believe in the bible that you are rather far off track was jesus illiterate why didn t he write anything anyone know i honestly hope that people who believe in the bible understand that it is just one of the religious texts out there and that it is one of the poorer quality ones to boot the only reason xtianity escaped the middle east is because a certain roman who s wine was poisoned with lead made all of rome xtian after a bad dream if this posting keeps one person just one person from standing on a streetcorner and telling people they are going to hell i will be happy only hatred and snap judgements can guide your robots through life dr clayton forester mad scientist
alt.atheism	re political atheists kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes how many contridictions do you want to see good question if i claim something is a general trend then to disprove this i guess you d have to show that it was not a general trend no if you re going to claim something then it is up to you to prove it think cold fusion well i ve provided examples to show that the trend was general and you or others have provided some counterexamples mostly ones surrounding mating practices etc i don t think that these few cases are enough to disprove the general trend of natural morality and again the mating practices need to be reexamined try to find immoral non mating related activities so you re excluding mating related activities from your natural morality no but mating practices are a special case i ll have to think about it some more yes i think that the natural system can be objectively deduced with the goal of species propogation in mind but i am not equating the two as you so think that is an objective system isn t necessarily the natural one are you or are you not the man who wrote a natural moral system is the objective moral system that most animals follow indeed but while the natural system is objective all objective systems are not the natural one so the terms can not be equated the natural system is a subset of the objective ones now since homosexuality has been observed in most animals including birds and dolphins are you going to claim that most animals have the capacity of being immoral i don t claim that homosexuality is immoral it isn t harmful although it isn t helpful either to the mating process and when you say that homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom don t you mean bisexuality because we can t determine to what end we should be moral are you claiming to be a group we usually implies more than one entity this is standard jargon read any textbook the we forms are used throughout well i m saying that these goals are not inherent that is why they must be postulates because there is not really a way to determine them otherwise although it could be argued that they arise from the natural goal but they are somewhat removed postulate to assume posit that s right the goals themselves aren t inherent i can create a theory with a postulate that the sun revolves around the earth that the moon is actually made of green cheese and the stars are the portions of angels that intrudes into three dimensional reality you could but such would contradict observations i can build a mathematical proof with a postulate that given the length of one side of a triangle the length of a second side of the triangle and the degree of angle connecting them i can determine the length of the third side but a postulate is something that is generally or always found to be true i don t think your postulate would be valid guess which one people are going to be more receptive to in order to assume something about your system you have to be able to show that your postulates work yes and i think the goals of survival and happiness do work you think they don t or are they not good goals keith
alt.atheism	re new member in article c hiew s portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller writes hello i just started reading this group today and i think i am going to be a large participant in its daily postings i liked the section of the faq about constructing logical arguments well done i am an atheist but i do not try to turn other people into atheists i only try to figure why people believe the way they do i don t much care if they have a different view than i do when it comes down to it i could be wrong i am willing to admit the possibility something religious followers dont seem to have the capability to do happy to be aboard dave fuller dfuller portal hq videocart com welcome i am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people are known by on alt atheism didn t know we had such a list did you your have been awarded the nickname of buckminster so the next time you post an article sign with your nickname like so dave buckminster fuller thanks again jim humor means never having to say you re sorry copeland if god is dead and the actor plays his part sting his words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart history without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse will teach us without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article c hkv epv blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes judaism for one maddi has confirmed this for one and again i reiterate that one can easily leave the religion at any time simply by making a public declaration if one is too lazy to do that then the religion cannot be held responsible there are many islamic countries where publically renouncing islam can be quite dangerous these countries might not according to you necessarily be practicing true islam but the danger still remains one cannot blame failure to publically renounce islam on laziness as opposed to a desire to stay alive and well of course if you re planning to pull a rushdie then declaring one s leaving the religion is little to be concerned about compared to one s other plans in rushdie s case the one under discussion one can it is tragic that in some islamic countries this is so there are however islamic countries whose constitutions contains statements that islamic law is to be incorporated e g kuwait where one can freely make such statements without fear not to mention that it has already been pointed out that rushdie has said in his books that he s not a muslim and there have surely been enough readers of his books to provide the appropriate number of witnesses this story has become tiresome the conditions are clear if you care to make your point clear then make a chronology and show that he had made public statements about leaving islam prior to his writing of tsv if he did make such statements then he should have made that clear rather than trying to rejoin islam or go on talking about his personal feelings gregg
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy bu edu wrote khomenei was a jerk and so were plenty of british leaders so what the qur an is the basis of judgement khomenei was clearly a heretic by the standards of the qur an end of story could you be a little more specific as to exactly why khomanei was a heretic and a jerk as judged by the koran i have no liking for the guy but as far as i know he has done nothing contrary to the teachings of the koran or at least so i m told by several iranian research students that i share an office with it is easy and convenient for you to denounce him but i have the feeling that your views are not as clear cut and widely accepted as you suggest i have made this clear elsewhere but will do so again khomeini put a price on the head of someone in another country this makes him a jerk as well as an international outlaw khomeini advocates the view that there was a series of twelve islamic leaders the twelve imams who are free of error or sin this makes him a heretic in the qur an muhammad is chastised for error directly by god the qur an says that muhammad is the greatest example of proper islamic behavior thus no muslim is free from error as usual there seems to be almost as many islamic viewpoints as there are muslims perhaps it seems so to you but this is hardly the case there is widespread agreement about matters of islam there certainly are many viewpoints on issues which are not particularly islamic in and of themselves but this is so for any large group of people under the same name it all comes back to the koran being so imprecise in its wording the qur an is not particularly imprecise in wording though it is true that several interpretations are possible in the interpretations of many words however as an entire text the qur an makes its meanings precise enough for intelligent people free from power lust to come to agreement about them gregg
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy bu edu wrote well it seemed slightly incongruous to find the union jack flying at city hall in belfast may i ask why it s there not because the british want it there ni is just one big expensive problem it s there because that is what the majority of the population of ni want is there some problem with that the majority of those who can open their mouths in public perhaps there seems quite alot of incentive for the british to have control of ni like using the north channel and irish sea as a waste dump i was appalled at the dumping i saw in the harbor in belfast it is my understanding that quite alot of radioactivity enters the water it d be quite a problem if ni got its independence from britain and then stopped accepting the waste are you suggesting that british industry isn t making profit off the situation as well gregg
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy bu edu wrote could you please explain in what way the qur an in your eyes carries the excess baggage of another era the qur an in my opinion carries no such baggage how about trying to run a modern economy without charging interest on loans from what i hear even fundamentalist iran is having to compromise this ideal which sort of loans and what have you heard exactly gregg
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article qi l jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci which ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim community in the uk and elsewhere jon grow up childish propagandist gregg
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article apr bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy bu edu wrote and no in western countries it isn t a legal concept at all so it s not the slightest bit pertinent to the topic which is a british author living in the united kingdom under the protection of british law ah yes i keep forgetting governments are superior entities to religious organizations forgive me the gun is the higher law this is degenerating to zumder logic of course governments are superior entities they are elected by the people whereas religious leaders certainly are not perhaps not in christianity but in islam the choice of religious leaders is to be made by the people so much for your superiority argument those who the people trust to make the law obviously represents the higher law that is democracy democracy is a basic element of islam learn that one ever notice that the so called fundamentalists in algeria who are being repressed by the secular government won in free and democratic elections gregg
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes from bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine subject re free moral agency date apr gmt in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes in the old testement satan is rarely mentioned if at all huh doesn t the sda bible contain the book of job this is why there is suffering in the world we are caught inthe crossfire and sometimes innocents as well as teh guilty get hurt that s my opinion and i hope i cleared up a few things seems like your omnipotent and omniscient god has got some splainin to do then or did he just create satan for shits and giggles bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea i didn t say it never mentioned satan i said it rarely if at all please excuse me for my lack of perfect memory or omnipotence tammy p s i m soory if i sound cranky i apoplogize now before anyone s feelings get hurt
alt.atheism	re note to bobby m in article apr daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes from mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough subject re note to bobby m date wed apr gmt in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes in madhausc ckip h netcom com madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann writes mark how much do you really know about vegetarian diets the problem is not some b vitamins it s balancing proteins there is also one vitamin that cannot be obtained from non animal products and this is only of concern to vegans who eat no meat dairy or eggs i believe it is b and it is the only problem supplements are available for vegans yes the b does come from animal by products if you are on an ovo lacto vegetarian diet eat dairy and eggs this is not an issue i didn t see the original posting but yes i do know about vegetarian diets considering that several of my close friends are devout vegetarians and have to take vitamin supplements b was one of the ones i was thinking of it has been a long time since i read the article i once saw talking about the special dietary needs of vegetarians so i didn t quote full numbers considering how nice this place is b can also come from whole grain rice i understand some brands here in australia and other places too i m sure get the b in the b tablets from whole grain rice are you sure those aren t an enriched type i know it is basically rice and soybeans to get almost everything you need but i hadn t heard of any rice having b just thought i d contribute on a different issue from the norm you should have contributed to the programming thread earlier fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au m if one is a vegan a vegetarian taht eats no animal products at at i e eggs milk cheese etc after about years of a vegan diet you need to start taking b supplements because b is found only in animals acutally our bodies make b i think but our bodies use up our own b after or years lacto oveo vegetarians like myself still get b through milk products and eggs so we don t need supplements and if anyone knows more please post it i m nearly contridicting myself with the mish mash of knowledge i ve gleaned tammy
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes so you are saying that it isn t possible for an instinctive act to be moral one that is in order for an act to be an act of morality the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard it no i m saying that in order for an act to be moral or immoral somebody someone something must consider it to be so that implies intelligence not instinct who has to consider it the being that does the action i m still not sure i know what you are trying to say keith
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes so you are saying that it isn t possible for an instinctive act to be moral one i like to think that many things are possible explain to me how instinctive acts can be moral acts and i am happy to listen for example if it were instinctive not to murder that is in order for an act to be an act of morality the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard it weaker than that there must be the possibility that the organism it s not just people we are talking about can consider alternatives so only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other beings mimics theirs and how much emphasis do you place on intelligence animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don t are you trying to say that this isn t an act of morality because most animals aren t intelligent enough to think like we do keith
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i don t expect the lion to know or not know anything of the kind in fact i don t have any evidence that lions ever consider such issues and that of course is why i don t think you can assign moral significance to the instinctive behaviour of lions what i ve been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior that is it doesn t take much work to be moral but it certainly does to be immoral in some cases also i ve said that morality is a remnant of evolution our moral system is based on concepts well practiced in the animal kingdom so you are basically saying that you think a moral is an undefinable term and that moral systems don t exist if we can t agree on a definition of these terms then how can we hope to discuss them no it s perfectly clear that i am saying that i know what a moral is in my system but that i can t speak for other people but this doesn t get us anywhere your particular beliefs are irrelevant unless you can share them or discuss them keith
alt.atheism	re was re cruel was re political atheists sdoe nmsu edu stephen doe writes of course if at some later time we think that the death penalty is cruel or unusual it will be outlawed but at the present most people don t seem to think this way this from the same fellow who speaks of an objective or natural morality i suppose that if the majority decides slavery is ok then it is no longer immoral i did not claim that our system was objective keith
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article bcc b ics uci edu bvickers ics uci edu brett j vickers writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes well seeing as you are not muslim the sort of fatwa issued by khomeini would not be relevant to you i can understand your fear of persecution and i share it even more than you being muslim however rushdie s behavior was not completely excusable why should a fatwa issued by khomeini be relevant to anyone who doesn t live in iran issued by khomeini it shouldn t be relevant to anyone but issued by an honest and learned scholar of islam it would be relevant to any muslim as it would be contrary to islamic law which all muslims are required to respect who is it that decides whether rushdie s behavior is excusable anyone sufficiently well versed in islamic law and capable of reasoning if you are talking about a weak sense of excuse it depends on what sense of excuse you have in mind and who cares if you think it is inexcusable only someone who thinks my opinion is important obviously obviously you don t care nor do i care that you don t care gregg
alt.atheism	re free moral agency and kent s in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes from sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik subject re free moral agency and kent s date thu apr gmt in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy wrote ezekiel says your hart was filled with pride because of all your beauty you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor therefore i have cast you down the the ground and exposed you helpless before the curious gaze of kings for those of you who are bible scholars you knowthat the st verses refer to the prince of tyre this is a prophesy about and addressed to the human prince verses refer to the king of tyre which is a term for satan tammy what s the rationale to connect the prince of tyre with satan could you give us more rational bible cites thanks i m afraid that if this is not the case your thinking model falls apart like a house of cards but let s see cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net at the time ezekiel was written israel was in apostacy again and if i m not mistaken tyre was about to make war on israel like i said the prince of tyre was the human ruler of tyre he was a wicked man by calling satan the king of tyre ezekiel was saying that satan is the real ruler over tyre don t think my interpretation is neccessarily the orthodox christian one although most christian bible commentaries interpret the king of tyre as being a reference to satan i haven t read ezekiel throughly in a long time tammy
alt.atheism	re free moral agency and jeff clark in article bb dfc i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes from i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau subject re free moral agency and jeff clark date thu apr gmt in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes deletion you also said why did millions suffer for what adam and ee did seems a pretty sick way of going about creating a universe i m gonna respond by giving a small theology lesson forgive me i used to be a theology major first of all i believe that this planet is involved in a cosmic struggle the great controversy betweed christ and satan i borrowed a book title god has to consider the interests of the entire universe when making decisions deletion an universe it has created by the way can you tell me why it is less tyrannic to let one of one s own creatures do what it likes to others by your definitions your god has created satan with full knowledge what would happen including every choice of satan can you explain us what free will is and how it goes along with omniscience didn t your god know everything that would happen even before it created the world why is it concerned about being a tyrant when noone would care if everything was fine for them that the whole idea comes from the possibility to abuse power something your god introduced according to your description by the way are you sure that you have read the faq especially the part about preaching benedikt i don t feel that i m preaching i m just trying to answer people s questions and talking about my religion my beliefs when it comes to what i post i don t do it with the intent of converting anyone i don t expect for the atheists in this newsgroup to take what i say with a grain of salt if they so wish i just state what i beleve they ask me how i believeit and why and we all go on if that s preaching then i m soory and i ll get off the soapbox tammy
alt.atheism	re pompous ass arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes look i m not the one that made those nazi comparisons other people compared what the religious people are doing now to nazi germany they have said that it started out with little things but no one really knew about any of these little things strangely enough and grew to bigger things they said that the motto is but one of the little things you just contradicted yourself the motto is one of those little things that nobody has bothered mentiopning to you huh the little things above were in reference to germany clearly people said that there were similar things in germany but no one could name any they said that these were things that everyone should know and that they weren t going to waste their time repeating them sounds to me like no one knew either i looked in some books but to no avail that is going to pave the way for other intrusions of course if the motto hasn t caused problems in its year history then i doubt it is going to it has caused problems you just ignore every instance when someone describes one to you it has caused problems again no one has shown that things were better before the motto or that they d likely be better after i don t think the motto initiates any sort of harassment harassment will occur whether or not the motto is present keith
alt.atheism	re pompous ass andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes i think you should support your first claim that people will simply harass me no matter what as i doubt this is true i think some of the theists will be at a loss and that is enough reason for me because in god we trust is a motto on the coins and the coins are a representation of the government christians are given ammunition here to slander atheists as unpatriotic so we should ban the ammunition why not get rid of the guns and yes i have heard this used in conversation with christians sure they may fall back on other things but this is one they should not have available to use it is worse than others the national anthem should it be changed too god bless america the list goes on imagine if the next year s set of coins were labeled with the motto god is dead certainly such a statement on u s coins would offend almost every christian and i d be tempted to rub that motto in the face of christians when debunking their standard motto slinging gets boring then you d be no better than the people you despise any statement printed on an item that represents the government is an endorsement by the government oh the coin motto is an endorsement of trusting in god an endorsement or an acknowledgement i think gods are things that people are proud of but i don t think the motto encourages belief i don t particularly feel like trusting in god so the government is putting me down with every coin it prints is it for the motto to be legitimate it would have to read in god gods or godlessness we trust would you approve of such a motto whether the motto was intended to be anti atheist or not it turns up as an open invitation to use as an anti atheist tool and removing the tool will solve the problem or will it increase the problem keith
alt.atheism	re objective morality was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i want to know how this omniscient being is going to perform the feat of definitely terming actions right or wrong if you were omniscient you d know who exactly did what and with what purpose in mind then with a particular goal in mind you sould be able to methodically judge whether or not this action was in accordance with the general goal i don t think you ve show the existence of any objective moral system they exist but in practice they are difficult to perfectly emulate i mean you understand the concept of an objective system right i thought you were explaining it to us i certainly don t understand what you are explaining in an objective system there are known goals then actions are judged as either being compatible with these goals or not simple the problem with most systems in current practice is that the goals differ that is the goals of each society are different note that an objective system is not necessarily an inherent one the concept of innocence is dependent on whether certain actions are right or wrong and this depends on the moral system but if we have an objective system then someone can be deemed innocent or not quite easily by an omniscient person anyway i think i cleared up the recursive definition of murder because no one is complaining about it i don t think it solves anything to speculate where we would be if we did have an objective moral system the question is still whether you can even say what one is i ve said it many many times and for what it s worth i don t think you cleared up anything concerning murder which part do you have a problem with what do you mean by harmed is it harm if you have to spend your existence metabolising food for another species oh most moral systems would be considered only within a species it is okay for us to enslave other animals right but not humans of course ideally perhaps we wouldn t even have to bother any other animals one the first point it s wrong to enslave humans according to my persoanl moral system on the second point i m a vegetarian but we can enslave the animals right but just not kill them or are you a vegetarian for health reasons so are you a vegetarian no i fail to see how my personal views are relevant anyway is it wrong to eat animals in your personal moral system of course not it seems perfectly valid to kill members of other species for food it might be nice though if the other animals were not made to suffer for instance a cow in a field lives out its life just about the same way it would in the wild they seem happy enough however the veal youngsters aren t treated very well how about an objective moral system i don t know what is the goal of this particular system there is no inherent system how about a natural moral system nope again it seems okay to kill other species for food keith
alt.atheism	re who are we to judge bobby in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes from kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan subject re who are we to judge bobby date thu apr gmt s n mozumder writes tammy r healy writes i would like to take the liberty to quote from a christian writer named ellen g white i hope that what she said will help you to edit your remarks in this group in the future do not set yourself as a standard do not make your opinions your views of duty your interpretations of scripture a criterion for others and in your heart condemn them if they do not come up to your ideal thoughts fromthe mount of blessing p point point you have taken it upon yourself to judge others when only god is the true judge only when the sun starts to orbit the earth will i accept the bible i agree totally with you amen you stated it better and in less world than i did tammy
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes from bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine subject re some thoughts keywords dan bissell date apr gmt in article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it makes sense to be one have any of you read tony campollo s book liar lunatic or the real thing i might be a little off on the title but he writes the book anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity in the process he became a christian himself this should be good fun it s been a while since the group has had such a ripe opportunity to gut gill and fillet some poor bastard ah well off to get the popcorn bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea i hope you re not going to flame him please give him the same coutesy you ve given me tammy
alt.atheism	re who are we to judge bobby in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes from snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder subject re who are we to judge bobby date wed apr gmt in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes bobby i would like to take the liberty to quote from a christian writer named ellen g white i hope that what she said will help you to edit your remarks in this group in the future do not set yourself as a standard do not make your opinions your views of duty your interpretations of scripture a criterion for others and in your heart condemn them if they do not come up to your ideal thoughts fromthe mount of blessing p i hope quoting this doesn t make the atheists gag but i think ellen white put it better than i could tammy point peace bobby mozumder my point is that you set up your views as the only way to believe saying that all eveil in this world is caused by atheism is ridiculous and counterproductive to dialogue in this newsgroups i see in your posts a spirit of condemnation of the atheists in this newsgroup bacause they don t believe exactly as you do if you re here to try to convert the atheists here you re failing miserably who wants to be in position of constantly defending themselves agaist insulting attacks like you seem to like to do i m sorry you re so blind that you didn t get the messgae in the quote everyone else has seemed to tammy
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes in article apr leland stanford edu rush leland stanford edu voelkerding writes if we worry about the one case in or more where an innocent man is convicted of something horrible enough to warrant the death penalty and hence put laws into place which make it virtually impossible to actually execute real criminals then the death penalty is not serving its original purpose it should either be changed or done away with i don t have numbers to back this up so take the following accordingly you use an off the cuff number of in innocent people sentenced to die as an acceptable loss for the benefit of capital punishment i d be very very surprised if the ratio were that low there have been approximately a dozen known cases of the execution of the innocent in the us since the turn of the century have we in that same period sentenced people to death accounting for those cases that we don t know the truth it seems reasonable to assume that twice that many innocent people have in fact been executed that would raise the number of death sentences metered out since to half a million for your acceptance ratio to hold i rather doubt that s the case the point of course is what is an acceptable loss in seems we re probably not doing even that well in in or should we perhaps find a better solution bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com any suggestions as to what a better solution might be i realize the off hand nature of the numbers i used and i can t answer as to what an acceptable loss rate is however as i said in another post i despise the idea of supporting criminals for life it s the economics of the situation that concern me most the money spent feeding clothing housing and taking care of people who have demonstrated that they are unfit to live in society could go to a number of places all of which i and probably others would consider far more worthwhile and which would enrish the lives of all americans give people jobs give the homeless shelter any number of things clyde little girls like butterflies don t need a reason robert heinlein
alt.atheism	re some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was or he was just convinced by religious fantasies of the time that he was the messiah or he was just some rebel leader that an organisation of jews built into godhood for the purpose off throwing of the yoke of roman oppression or some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie are the moslem fanatics who strap bombs to their backs and driving into jewish embassies dying for the truth hint they think they are were the nazi soldiers in wwii dying for the truth people die for lies all the time wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar people was hitler a liar how about napoleon mussolini ronald reagan we spend millions of dollars a year trying to find techniques to detect lying so the answer is no they wouldn t be able to tell if he was a liar if he only lied about some things gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed call me a fool but i believe he did heal people why do you think he healed people because the bible says so but if god doesn t exist the other possibility then the bible is not divinely inspired and one can t use it as a piece of evidence as it was written by unbiased observers niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rediculous for example were hitler or mussolini lunatics how about genghis khan jim jones there are thousands of examples through history of people being drawn to lunatics anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool logical people see this right away therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing so we obviously cannot rule out liar or lunatic not to mention all the other possibilities not given in this triad some other things to note he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms isaiah and elsewhere in hrs alone this in his betrayal possibly self fulfilling prophecy ie he was aware what he should do in order to fulfil these prophecies possibly selective diting on behalf of those keepers of the holy bible for a thousand years or so before the general public had access possibly also that the text is written in such riddles like nostradamus that anything that happens can be twisted to fit the words of raving fictional prophecy and crucifixion i don t have my bible with me at this moment next time i write i will use it stuff about how hard it is to be a christian deleted i severely recommend you reconsider the reasons you are a christian they are very unconvincing to an unbiased observer jeff
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article ql ajinn kj gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes but chimps are almost human does this mean that chimps have a moral will well chimps must have some system they live in social groups as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior ah the verb to must i was warned about that one back in kindergarten so why must they have such laws jon
alt.atheism	re some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it i know i shouldn t get involved but bit deleted the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed call me a fool but i believe he did heal people niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool logical people see this right away therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing righto dan try this one with your cornflakes the book says that muhammad was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day mad mahdi or he was actually who he said he was some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing how his son in law made the sun stand still call me a fool but i believe he did make the sun stand still niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to the mad mahdi is obviously a fool logical people see this right away therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing ron house usq house helios usq edu au toowoomba australia
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article qi l jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci which ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim community in the uk and elsewhere jon grow up childish propagandist gregg i m really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice things aren t quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim them to be upsets you but exactly who is being childish here is open to question bbci was an example of an islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet me they weren t real islamic owners and operators and yet it actually turned out to be a long running and quite ruthless operation to steal money from small and often quite naive depositors and why did these naive depositors put their life savings into bcci rather than the nasty interest motivated western bank down the street could it be that they believed an islamically owned and operated bank couldn t possibly cheat them so please don t try to con us into thinking that it will all work out right next time jon
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists in article ql sninn vm gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes so you are saying that it isn t possible for an instinctive act to be moral one i like to think that many things are possible explain to me how instinctive acts can be moral acts and i am happy to listen for example if it were instinctive not to murder then not murdering would have no moral significance since there would be nothing voluntary about it that is in order for an act to be an act of morality the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard it weaker than that there must be the possibility that the organism it s not just people we are talking about can consider alternatives so only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other beings mimics theirs you are starting to get the point mimicry is not necessarily the same as the action being imitated a parrot saying pretty polly isn t necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of polly and how much emphasis do you place on intelligence see above animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don t they do i and other posters have given you many examples of exactly this but you seem to have a very short memory are you trying to say that this isn t an act of morality because most animals aren t intelligent enough to think like we do i m saying there must be the possibility that the organism it s not just people we are talking about can consider alternatives it s right there in the posting you are replying to jon
alt.atheism	re moraltiy was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes what if i act morally for no particular reason then am i moral what if morality is instinctive as in most animals saying that morality is instinctive in animals is an attempt to assume your conclusion which conclusion you conclusion correct me if i err that the behaviour which is instinctive in animals is a natural moral system see we are disagreeing on the definition of moral here earlier you said that it must be a conscious act by your definition no instinctive behavior pattern could be an act of morality you are trying to apply human terms to non humans i think that even if someone is not conscious of an alternative this does not prevent his behavior from being moral you don t think that morality is a behavior pattern what is human morality a moral action is one that is consistent with a given pattern that is we enforce a certain behavior as moral you keep getting this backwards you are trying to show that the behaviour pattern is a morality whether morality is a behavior pattern is irrelevant since there can be behavior pattern for example the motions of the planets that most all people would not call a morality i try to show it but by your definition it can t be shown and morality can be thought of a large class of princples it could be defined in terms of many things the laws of physics if you wish however it seems silly to talk of a moral planet because it obeys the laws of phyics it is less silly to talk about animals as they have at least some free will keith
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes this whole thread started because of a discussion about whether or not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment which is forbidden by the us constitution yes but they didn t say what they meant by cruel which is why a you have the supreme court and b it makes no sense to refer to the constitution which is quite silent on the meaning of the word cruel they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution they picked words whose meanings implied the intent we have already looked in the dictionary to define the word isn t this sufficient oh but we were discussing the death penalty and that discussion resulted from the one about murder which resulted from an intial discussion about objective morality so this is already three times removed from the morality discussion actually we were discussing the mening of the word cruel and the us constitution says nothing about that but we were discussing it in relation to the death penalty and the constitution need not define each of the words within anyone who doesn t know what cruel is can look in the dictionary and we did keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes no that s just what you thought the theory meant while all humans are generally capable of overpowering their instincts it does not follow that those who do this often are necessarily more intelligent ok so why aren t animals generally capable of overpowering their instincts good question i m sure some biologist could answer better than i but animals brains are just set up differently animals can be trained but if they re instincts serve them well there is no reason to contradict them keith
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists in article ql inn a gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i don t expect the lion to know or not know anything of the kind in fact i don t have any evidence that lions ever consider such issues and that of course is why i don t think you can assign moral significance to the instinctive behaviour of lions what i ve been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior that is it doesn t take much work to be moral but it certainly does to be immoral in some cases that s the craziest thing i ever heard are you serious it doesn t take much work to be moral also i ve said that morality is a remnant of evolution really and that s why people discuss morality on a daily basis because it s a kind of evolutionary hangover like your little toe our moral system is based on concepts well practiced in the animal kingdom this must be some novel use of the phrase based on with which i am not sufficiently familiar what do you mean by based on and what is the significance of it for your argument so you are basically saying that you think a moral is an undefinable term and that moral systems don t exist if we can t agree on a definition of these terms then how can we hope to discuss them no it s perfectly clear that i am saying that i know what a moral is in my system but that i can t speak for other people but this doesn t get us anywhere your particular beliefs are irrelevant unless you can share them or discuss them well we can what would you like to know about my particular moral beliefs if you raise a topic i ve never considered i ll be quite happy to invent a moral belief out of thin air jon
alt.atheism	re pompous ass in article ql jiinn df gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes look i m not the one that made those nazi comparisons other people compared what the religious people are doing now to nazi germany they have said that it started out with little things but no one really knew about any of these little things strangely enough and grew to bigger things they said that the motto is but one of the little things you just contradicted yourself the motto is one of those little things that nobody has bothered mentiopning to you huh the little things above were in reference to germany clearly people said that there were similar things in germany but no one could name any they said that these were things that everyone should know and that they weren t going to waste their time repeating them sounds to me like no one knew either i looked in some books but to no avail that s not true i gave you two examples one was the rather pevasive anti semitism in german christianity well before hitler arrived the other was the system of social ranks that were used in imperail germany and austria to distinguish jews from the rest of the population neither of these were very terrible in themselves but both helped to set a psychology in which the gradual disenfranchisement of jews was made easier jon
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians excerpts from netnews alt atheism apr re thoughts on christians by dave fuller portal hq vi i m sick of religious types being pampered looked out for and worst of all respected more than atheists there must be an end in sight i think it d help if we got a couple good atheists or even some good steadfast agnostics in some high political offices when was the last time we had an openly atheist president have we ever i don t actually know these aren t rhetorical questions how bout some supreme court justices one thing that really ticked me off a while ago was an ad for a news program on a local station the promo said something like who are these cults and why do they prey on the young ahem ever hear of baptism at birth if that isn t preying on the young i don t know what is i used to be ack barf a catholic and was even confirmed shortly thereafter i decided it was a load of bs my mom who really insisted that i continue to go to church felt it was her duty to bring me up as a believer that was one of the more presumptuous things i ve heard in my life i suggested we go talk to the priest and she agreed the priest was amazingly cool about it he basically said that if i didn t believe it there was no good in forcing it on me actually i guess he wasn t amazingly cool about it his response is what you d hope for indeed expect from a human being i s pose i just didn t expect it i find it absurd that religion exists yet i can also see its usefulness to people facing up to the fact that you re just going to be worm food in a few decades and that there isn t some cosmic purpose to humanity and the universe can be pretty difficult for some people having a readily available pre digested solution to this is pretty attractive if you re either a gullible enough b willing to suspend your reasoning abilities for the piece of mind or c have had the stuff rammed down your throat for as long as you can remember religion in general provides a nice patch for some human weaknesses organized religion provides a nice way to keep a population under control blech chris chris leger sophomore carnegie mellon computer engineering remember if you don t like what somebody is saying you can always ignore them
alt.atheism	it s all mary s fault you know it just occurred to me today that this whole christian thing can be blamed solely on mary so she s married to joseph she gets knocked up what do you think ol joe will do if he finds she s been getting around so mary comes up with this ridiculous story about god making her pregnant actually it can t be all that ridiculous considering the number of people that believe it anyway she never tells anyone the truth and even tells poor little jesus that he s hot shit the son of god everyone else tells him this too since they ve bought mary s story so what does mary actually turn out to be an adultress and a liar and the cause of mankind s greatest folly just my recently minted two cents chris chris leger sophomore carnegie mellon computer engineering remember if you don t like what somebody is saying you can always ignore them
alt.atheism	re rawlins debunks creationism in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins wrote we are talking about origins not merely science science cannot explain origins for a person to exclude anything but science from the issue of origins is to say that there is no higher truth than science this is a false premise says who other than a hear say god by the way i enjoy science you sure don t understand it it is truly a wonder observing god s creation macroevolution is a mixture of percent science and percent religion guaranteed within three percent error bill i hereby award you the golden shovel award for the biggist pile of bullshit i ve seen in a whils i m afraid there s not a bit of religion in macroevolution and you ve made a rather grand statement that science can not explain origins to a large extent it already has bill rawlins wpr atlanta dg com peter w walker yu shall i tell you what knowledge is when dept of space physics you know a thing say that you know it when and astronomy you do not know a thing admit you do not know rice university it this is knowledge houston tx k ung fu tzu
alt.atheism	re some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian well this is alt atheism i hope you arent here to try to convert anyone it makes sense to be one many would disagree the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was well you shouldn t give any particular book too much weight actually i don t think that any of these statements is correct it is more likely that most of jesus fame was attributed to him after his death by those who had some strong motives some other things to note he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms isaiah and elsewhere in hrs alone what s a prophecy and what s so significant about them i don t think most people understand what a christian is i think we understand it is certainly not what i see a lot in churches rather i think it should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for god s sake well sell your computer and donate you life to your religion now don t waste any time keith
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qkq t n horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes i ll take a wild guess and say freedom is objectively valuable i base this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition almost all would want to complain therefore i take it that to assert or believe that freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on a rainy day i take this to be a candidate for an objective value and it it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values such as this exist you have only shown that a vast majority if not all would agree to this however there is nothing against a subjective majority in any event i must challenge your assertion i know many societies heck many us citizens willing to trade freedom for security whatever promises that have been made can than be broken john laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes in article apr wam umd edu west next wam umd edu writes and belief causes far more horrors crusades the emasculation and internment of native americans the killing of various tribes in south america the inquisition the counter reformation and the wars that followed the salem witch trials the european witch hunts the holy wars of the middle east the colonization destruction of africa the wars between christianity and islam post crusade the genocide biblical of the canaanites and philistines aryian invasion of india the attempted genocide of jews by nazi germany the current missionary assaults on tribes in africa i think all the horrors you mentioned are due to lack of people following religion d by lack of people following religion i also include fanatics people that don t know what they are following d so how do you know that you were right why are you trying to shove down my throat that religion causes horrors it really covers yourself something false to save yourself peace bobby mozumder i just thought of another one in the bible so it s definately not because of lack of religion the book of esther which i read the other day for other reasons describes the origin of pur im a jewish celbration of joy and peace the long and short of the story is that people were killed when people were tripping over all of the peacefull solutions lying about you couldn t swing a sacred cow without slammin into a nice peaceful solution course joshua and the jawbone of an ass spring to mind i agree with bobby this far religion as it is used to kill large numbers of people is usually not used in the form or manner that it was originally intended for that doesn t reduce the number of deaths directly caused by religion it is just a minor observation of the fact that there is almost nothing pure in the universe the very act of honestly attempting to find true meaning in religious teaching has many times inspired hatred and led to war many people have been led by religious leaders more involved in their own stomache contentsthan in any absolute truth and have therefore been driven to kill by their leaders the point is that there are many things involved in religion that often lead to war whether these things are a part of religion an unpleasant side effect or as bobby would have it the result of people switching between religion and atheism spontaneously the results are the same religious groups have long been involved in the majority of the bloodiest parts of man s history atheists on the other hand preen preen are typically not an ideological social caste nor are they driven to organize and spread their beliefs the overuse of nazism and stalinism just show how true this is two groups with very clear and specific ideologies using religious persecution to further their means anyone who cannot see the obvious namely that these were groups founded for reasons entirely their own who used religious persecution not because of any belief system but because it made them more powerfull is trying too hard basically bobby uses these examples because there are so few wars that were not specifically fought over religion that he does not have many choices well i m off to key west where the only flames are heating the bottom of little silver butter dishes ciao chris blask
alt.atheism	re objective morality was re political atheists in article ql utinn sg gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i want to know how this omniscient being is going to perform the feat of definitely terming actions right or wrong if you were omniscient you d know who exactly did what and with what purpose in mind then with a particular goal in mind you sould be able to methodically judge whether or not this action was in accordance with the general goal but now you are contradicting yourself in a pretty massive way and i don t think you ve even noticed in another part of this thread you ve been telling us that the goal of a natural morality is what animals do to survive but suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some other species either terrestrial or alien does that make it moral to do so jon
alt.atheism	re pompous ass in article ql pinn ef gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider says andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes sure they may fall back on other things but this is one they should not have available to use it is worse than others the national anthem should it be changed too god bless america the list goes on worse maybe not but it is definately a violation of the rules the us govt supposedly follows maybe the others should be changed to but i m not personally as concerned about the anthem since i don t come across it in daily nearly unavoidable routines every christian and i d be tempted to rub that motto in the face of christians when debunking their standard motto slinging gets boring then you d be no better than the people you despise i don t despise the people just their opinions i meant when chatting with the ones who refuse to listen to any idea other than their own then it just becomes an exercise for amusement for the motto to be legitimate it would have to read in god gods or godlessness we trust would you approve of such a motto no not unless the only way to get rid of the current one was to change it to such as that
alt.atheism	re moraltiy was re political atheists in article ql ekinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes what if i act morally for no particular reason then am i moral what if morality is instinctive as in most animals saying that morality is instinctive in animals is an attempt to assume your conclusion which conclusion you conclusion correct me if i err that the behaviour which is instinctive in animals is a natural moral system see we are disagreeing on the definition of moral here earlier you said that it must be a conscious act by your definition no instinctive behavior pattern could be an act of morality you are trying to apply human terms to non humans pardon me i am trying to apply human terms to non humans i think there must be some confusion here i m the guy who is saying that if animal behaviour is instinctive then it does not have any moral sugnificance how does refusing to apply human terms to animals get turned into applying human terms i think that even if someone is not conscious of an alternative this does not prevent his behavior from being moral i m sure you do think this if you say so how about trying to convince me you don t think that morality is a behavior pattern what is human morality a moral action is one that is consistent with a given pattern that is we enforce a certain behavior as moral you keep getting this backwards you are trying to show that the behaviour pattern is a morality whether morality is a behavior pattern is irrelevant since there can be behavior pattern for example the motions of the planets that most all people would not call a morality i try to show it but by your definition it can t be shown i ve offered four times i think to accept your definition if you allow me to ascribe moral significence to the orbital motion of the planets and morality can be thought of a large class of princples it could be defined in terms of many things the laws of physics if you wish however it seems silly to talk of a moral planet because it obeys the laws of phyics it is less silly to talk about animals as they have at least some free will ah the law of silly and less silly what mr livesey finds intuitive is silly but what mr schneider finds intuitive is less silly now that s a devastating argument isn t it jon
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article bcc b ics uci edu bvickers ics uci edu brett j vickers writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes well seeing as you are not muslim the sort of fatwa issued by khomeini would not be relevant to you i can understand your fear of persecution and i share it even more than you being muslim however rushdie s behavior was not completely excusable as much as i considered some of the so called islam related dialogue here a total waste of time i somehow can t restrain myself in this instance so gregg try this p s t i come to my senses and accept the all knowing wisdom and power of the quran and allah not only that but allah himself drops by to congratulate me on my wise choice allah rolls a few bones and we get down then allah gets out the crisco bends over and invites me to take a spin around the block wow p s t i realize that maybe allah is looking for more of a commitment than i m ready for so i say man i ve got some programming to do gotta go i ll call you p s t thinking it over i renounce islam btw gregg allah said he still thinks of you jim
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article bafa d i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes yes but fortunately religions have been replaced by systems that value human rights higher secular laws seem to value criminal life more than the victims life islam places the rights of society and every member in it above the rights of the individual this is what i call true human rights by the way do you actually support the claim of precedence of islamic law in case you do what about the laws of other religions as a muslim living in a non muslim land i am bound by the laws of the land i live in but i do not disregard islamic law it still remains a part of my life if the laws of a land conflict with my religion to such an extent that i am prevented from being allowed to practise my religion then i must leave the land so in a way islamic law does take precendence over secular law but we are instructed to follow the laws of the land that we live in too in an islamic state one ruled by a khaliphate religions other than islam are allowed to rule by their own religious laws provided they don t affect the genral population and don t come into direct conflict with state laws dhimmis non muslim population are exempt from most islamic laws on religion such as fighting in a jihad giving zakat alms giving etc but are given the benefit of these two acts such as military protection and if they are poor they will receive zakat if not what has it got to do with rushdie and has anyone reliable information if he hadn t left islam according to islamic law or is the burden of proof on him benedikt after the fatwa didn t rushdie re affirm his faith in islam didn t he go thru a very public conversion to islam if so he is binding himself to islamic laws he has to publicly renounce in his belief in islam so the burden is on him mas c i t i z e n c a d e n c e d e s i g n s y s t e m s inc masud ahmed khan mas cadence com all my opinions
alt.atheism	re slavery was re why is sex only allowed in marriage in article apr bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk leonard newnham writes oh this all sounds so nice everyone helping each other and always smiling and fluffy bunnies everywhere wake up people are just not like that it seems evident from history that no society has succeeded when it had to rely upon the goodwill and unselfishness of the people isn t it obvious from places like iran that even if there are only a few greedy people in society then they are going to be attracted to positions of power sounds like a recipe for disaster leonard e mail l newnham bradford ac uk leonard i ll give you an example of this my father recently bought a business the business price was pounds and my father approached the people in the community for help he raised pounds in interest free loans from friends and relatives and muslims he knew had cash and the rest he got a business loan after paying off the muslim lenders many of them helped him with further loans to help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest this is an example of a muslim community helping one another why did they help because of their common identity as muslims in turn my father has helped with people buying houses to minimise the amount of intrest they pay and in some cases buy houses intrest free with the help of those more fortunate in the community the fact is leonard it does work without a fluffy bunny in sight ithat is the beauty of islam mas c i t i z e n c a d e n c e d e s i g n s y s t e m s inc masud ahmed khan mas cadence com all my opinions
alt.atheism	re pompous ass andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes sure they may fall back on other things but this is one they should not have available to use it is worse than others worse maybe not but it is definately a violation of the rules the us govt supposedly follows oh for the motto to be legitimate it would have to read in god gods or godlessness we trust would you approve of such a motto no not unless the only way to get rid of the current one was to change it to such as that what is wrong with this motto now if you wouldn t approve of even that one i am beginning to think that you just have something against mottos in general what do you think of e plurbis unum keith
alt.atheism	re pompous ass livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes the little things above were in reference to germany clearly people said that there were similar things in germany but no one could name any that s not true i gave you two examples one was the rather pevasive anti semitism in german christianity well before hitler arrived the other was the system of social ranks that were used in imperail germany and austria to distinguish jews from the rest of the population these don t seem like little things to me at least they are orders worse than the motto do you think that the motto is a little thing that will lead to worse things keith
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes explain to me how instinctive acts can be moral acts and i am happy to listen for example if it were instinctive not to murder then not murdering would have no moral significance since there would be nothing voluntary about it see there you go again saying that a moral act is only significant if it is voluntary why do you think this and anyway humans have the ability to disregard some of their instincts so only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other beings mimics theirs you are starting to get the point mimicry is not necessarily the same as the action being imitated a parrot saying pretty polly isn t necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of polly you are attaching too many things to the term moral i think let s try this is it good that animals of the same species don t kill each other or do you think this is right or do you think that animals are machines and that nothing they do is either right nor wrong animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don t they do i and other posters have given you many examples of exactly this but you seem to have a very short memory those weren t arbitrary killings they were slayings related to some sort of mating ritual or whatnot are you trying to say that this isn t an act of morality because most animals aren t intelligent enough to think like we do i m saying there must be the possibility that the organism it s not just people we are talking about can consider alternatives it s right there in the posting you are replying to yes it was but i still don t understand your distinctions what do you mean by consider can a small child be moral how about a gorilla a dolphin a platypus where is the line drawn does the being need to be self aware what do you call the mechanism which seems to prevent animals of the same species from arbitrarily killing each other don t you find the fact that they don t at all significant keith
alt.atheism	re objective morality was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in another part of this thread you ve been telling us that the goal of a natural morality is what animals do to survive that s right humans have gone somewhat beyond this though perhaps our goal is one of self actualization but suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some other species either terrestrial or alien now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me this was not part of the original premise does that make it moral to do so which type of morality are you talking about in a natural sense it is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesn t adversely affect your own i guess keith
alt.atheism	re new member jcopelan nyx cs du edu the one and only writes welcome i am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people are known by on alt atheism didn t know we had such a list did you your have been awarded the nickname of buckminster so the next time you post an article sign with your nickname like so dave buckminster fuller thanks again jim humor means never having to say you re sorry copeland of course the list has to agree with the nickname laws laid down by the gipu almost years ago you know the of them that were written on the iron tablets that melted once and had to be reinscribed since i am a prophet of the gipu i decree that you should post the whole list of nicknames for the frequent posters here nanci
alt.atheism	re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well chimps must have some system they live in social groups as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior so why must they have such laws the quotation marks should enclose laws not must if there were no such rules even instinctive ones or unwritten ones etc then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society into chaos keith
alt.atheism	re pompous ass in article qlef inn dn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes the little things above were in reference to germany clearly people said that there were similar things in germany but no one could name any that s not true i gave you two examples one was the rather pevasive anti semitism in german christianity well before hitler arrived the other was the system of social ranks that were used in imperail germany and austria to distinguish jews from the rest of the population these don t seem like little things to me at least they are orders worse than the motto do you think that the motto is a little thing that will lead to worse things you don t think these are little things because with twenty twenty hindsight you know what they led to jon
alt.atheism	re objective morality was re political atheists in article qlf ginn sn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in another part of this thread you ve been telling us that the goal of a natural morality is what animals do to survive that s right humans have gone somewhat beyond this though perhaps our goal is one of self actualization humans have gone somewhat beyond what exactly in one thread you re telling us that natural morality is what animals do to survive and in this thread you are claiming that an omniscient being can definitely say what is right and what is wrong so what does this omniscient being use for a criterion the long term survival of the human species or what how does omniscient map into definitely being able to assign right and wrong to actions but suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some other species either terrestrial or alien now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me this was not part of the original premise well your original premises have a habit of changing over time so perhaps you d like to review it for us and tell us what the difference is between an omniscient being be able to assign right and wrong to actions and telling us the result is does that make it moral to do so which type of morality are you talking about in a natural sense it is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesn t adversely affect your own i guess i m talking about the morality introduced by you which was going to be implemented by this omniscient being that can definitely assign right and wrong to actions you tell us what type of morality that is jon
alt.atheism	re slavery was re why is sex only allowed in marriage in article apr cadence com mas cadence com masud khan writes leonard i ll give you an example of this my father recently bought a business the business price was pounds and my father approached the people in the community for help he raised pounds in interest free loans from friends and relatives and muslims he knew had cash and the rest he got a business loan after paying off the muslim lenders many of them helped him with further loans to help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest this is an example of a muslim community helping one another why did they help because of their common identity as muslims in turn my father has helped with people buying houses to minimise the amount of intrest they pay and in some cases buy houses intrest free with the help of those more fortunate in the community sorry wrong this is how banks got started in the first place sooner or later your father and his pals will lend money to someone who eventually goes broke and then they will realise that they havn t been managing risk very well then they will ask themselves what it is that they need to quantify risk and to persuade borrowers not to take on greater loans than they can carry and since they don t all want the worry of doing the calculations and handling the money some of them will specialise in that then they ll reinvent interest but like good muslims they ll call it something else the fact is leonard it does work without a fluffy bunny in sight ithat is the beauty of islam riiiight that s why john major opened a new government department a couple of months ago to help to promote minority business because they can do it all themselves by lending one another cups of sugar jon
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists in article qlettinn oi gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes explain to me how instinctive acts can be moral acts and i am happy to listen for example if it were instinctive not to murder then not murdering would have no moral significance since there would be nothing voluntary about it see there you go again saying that a moral act is only significant if it is voluntary why do you think this if you force me to do something am i morally responsible for it and anyway humans have the ability to disregard some of their instincts well make up your mind is it to be instinctive not to murder or not so only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other beings mimics theirs you are starting to get the point mimicry is not necessarily the same as the action being imitated a parrot saying pretty polly isn t necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of polly you are attaching too many things to the term moral i think let s try this is it good that animals of the same species don t kill each other or do you think this is right it s not even correct animals of the same species do kill one another or do you think that animals are machines and that nothing they do is either right nor wrong sigh i wonder how many times we have been round this loop i think that instinctive bahaviour has no moral significance i am quite prepared to believe that higher animals such as primates have the beginnings of a moral sense since they seem to exhibit self awareness animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don t they do i and other posters have given you many examples of exactly this but you seem to have a very short memory those weren t arbitrary killings they were slayings related to some sort of mating ritual or whatnot so what are you trying to say that some killing in animals has a moral significance and some does not is this your natural morality are you trying to say that this isn t an act of morality because most animals aren t intelligent enough to think like we do i m saying there must be the possibility that the organism it s not just people we are talking about can consider alternatives it s right there in the posting you are replying to yes it was but i still don t understand your distinctions what do you mean by consider can a small child be moral how about a gorilla a dolphin a platypus where is the line drawn does the being need to be self aware are you blind what do you think that this sentence means there must be the possibility that the organism it s not just people we are talking about can consider alternatives what would that imply what do you call the mechanism which seems to prevent animals of the same species from arbitrarily killing each other don t you find the fact that they don t at all significant i find the fact that they do to be significant jon
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article c jxru t news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes what do you base your belief on atheism on your knowledge and reasoning couldn t that be wrong actually my atheism is based on ignorance ignorance of the existence of any god don t fall into the atheists don t believe because of their pride mistake bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article qi l jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci which ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim community in the uk and elsewhere grow up childish propagandist gosh gregg i m pretty good a reading between the lines but you ve given me precious little to work with in this refutation could you maybe flesh it out just a bit or did i miss the full grandeur of it s content by virtue of my blinding atheism bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists in article ql inn a gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes what i ve been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior do i smell sig material here bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists in article ql mdinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes but we were discussing it in relation to the death penalty and the constitution need not define each of the words within anyone who doesn t know what cruel is can look in the dictionary and we did or with no dictionary available they could gain first hand knowledge by suffering through one of your posts bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re pompous ass in article ql jiinn df gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes the little things above were in reference to germany clearly people said that there were similar things in germany but no one could name any they said that these were things that everyone should know and that they weren t going to waste their time repeating them sounds to me like no one knew either i looked in some books but to no avail if the anne frank exhibit makes it to your small little world take an afternoon to go see it bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians in article ofnwyg wb voa andrew cmu edu pl u andrew cmu edu patrick c leger writes ever hear of baptism at birth if that isn t preying on the young i don t know what is no that s praying on the young preying on the young comes later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the priest really wears under that chasible bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article qlfd inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well chimps must have some system they live in social groups as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior so why must they have such laws the quotation marks should enclose laws not must oh your highness and exactly why should the quotation marks enclose laws not must in case you didn t notice it s the function of the must that i wish to ironicise if there were no such rules even instinctive ones or unwritten ones etc then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society into chaos perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour died out and we are left with the ones that did evolve such behaviour entirely by chance are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an organism evolves cooperative behaviour what about the natural morality of bee dance jon
alt.atheism	re objective morality was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes humans have gone somewhat beyond what exactly in one thread you re telling us that natural morality is what animals do to survive and in this thread you are claiming that an omniscient being can definitely say what is right and what is wrong so what does this omniscient being use for a criterion the long term survival of the human species or what well that s the question isn t it the goals are probably not all that obvious we can set up a few goals like happiness and liberty and the golden rule etc but these goals aren t inherent they have to be defined before an objective system is possible how does omniscient map into definitely being able to assign right and wrong to actions it is not too difficult one you have goals in mind and absolute knoweldge of everyone s intent etc now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me this was not part of the original premise well your original premises have a habit of changing over time so perhaps you d like to review it for us and tell us what the difference is between an omniscient being be able to assign right and wrong to actions and telling us the result is omniscience is fine as long as information is not given away isn t this the resolution of the free will problem an interactive omniscient being changes the situation which type of morality are you talking about in a natural sense it is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesn t adversely affect your own i guess i m talking about the morality introduced by you which was going to be implemented by this omniscient being that can definitely assign right and wrong to actions you tell us what type of morality that is well i was speaking about an objective system in general i didn t mention a specific goal which would be necessary to determine the morality of an action keith
alt.atheism	islam is caused by believing was re genocide is caused by theism in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes i m only saying that anything can happen under atheism being a beleiver a knowledgeable one in religion only good can happen this is becoming a tiresome statement coming from you it is a definition not an assertion islam is good belief in islam is good therefore being a believer in islam can produce only good because islam is good blah blah blah that s about as circular as it gets and equally meaningless to say that something produces only good because it is only good that it produces is nothing more than an unapplied definition and all you re application is saying that it s true if you really believe it s true that s silly conversely you say off handedly that anything can happen under atheism again just an offshoot of believe it and it becomes true don t believe it and it doesn t like other religions i m aquainted with islam teaches exclusion and caste and suggests harsh penalties for behaviors that have no logical call for punishment certain limits on speech and sex for example to me this is not good i see much pain and suffering without any justification except for the waving of the hand of some inaccessible god by the by you toss around the word knowledgable a bit carelessly for what is a knowledgeable believer except a contradiction of terms i infer that you mean believer in terms of having faith and if you need knowledge to believe then faith has nothing to do with it does it jim halat
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes he d have to be precise about is rejection of god and his leaving islam one is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the existence of god so long as one does not reject god i am sure that rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient number of proper witnesses the question in regard to the legal issue is his status at the time the crime was committed i d have to say that i have a problem with any organization religious or not where the idea that simple speech such as this is the basis for a crime jim halat
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes he d have to be precise about is rejection of god and his leaving islam one is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the existence of god so long as one does not reject god i am sure that rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient number of proper witnesses the question in regard to the legal issue is his status at the time the crime was committed i ll also add that it is impossible to actually tell when one rejects god therefore you choose to punish only those who talk about it jim halat
alt.atheism	re a silly question on x tianity in article apr daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes sorry to insult your homestate but coming from where i do wisconsin is very backwards i was never able to understand that people actually held such bigoted and backwards views until i came here i have never been to wisconsin though i have been to neighbor minnesota being a child of the middle atlantic ny nj pa i found that there were few states in the provences that stood out in this youngster s mind california texas and florida to name the most obvious three however both minnesota and wisconsin stuck out solely on the basis of their politics both have always translated to extremely liberal and progressive states and my recent trip to minnestoa last summer served to support that state s reputation my guess is that wisconsin is probably the same at least that was the impression the people of minnesota left with me about their neighbors the only question in my head about wisconsin though is whether or not there is a cause effect relationship between cheese and serial killers jim halat
alt.atheism	re the nonexistance of atheists date apr edt from kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu in article bskendigc jcwx jzn netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes s c a quotes deleted it really looks like these people have no idea at all of what it means to be atheist there are more bobby mozumder clones in the world than i thought well that explains some things i posted on soc religion islam with an attached quote by bobby to the effect that all atheists are lying evil scum and asked if it was a commonly held idea among muslims i got no response asking about the unknown i guess you should have tried one of the soc culture groups in the middle east or south asia area they are a little more open than the islam channel i think someone defined atheists as polytheists cuz they say we think the world created itself or something like that so each particle is a god which created the other gods the soc culture african is also nice for some contrasting viewpoints on the benevolence of religion especially when sudan is mentioned
alt.atheism	keith is a relativist in article pigidinnsot gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes not so if you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you blame the tiger aha he admits it he is a moral relativist keith if you start wafffling on about how it is different for a human to maul someone thrown into it s cage so to speak you d better start posting tome decent evidence or retract your i think there is an absolute morality blurb a few weeks ago keith the desert brat john j mcvey elc eltnc eng whyalla uni s australia f levels unisa edu au t s a k c darwin o for replies mail to whjjm wh whyalla unisa edu au disclaimer unisa hates my opinions bb bb it doesn t make a rainbow any less beautiful that we god s name is smack understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to for some produce it jim perry perry dsinc com alice in chains
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes i hope you re not going to flame him please give him the same coutesy you ve given me tammy if a person gives a well balanced reasoned argument tammy then all are happy to discuss it with him if he makes astounding claims which are not backed up with any evidence then he must be expected to substantiate them if the original author had said that everything was his own opinion and not supportable then people would have simply ignored him he did not he claimed many things and his logic was seriously flawed his argument was for christianity in an effort to try to convince atheists like myself to believe him and his message i for one will not take things as read if you told me that pink fluffy elephants did the dance of the sugar plum fairy on the dark side of jupiter then i would demand evidence adda adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
alt.atheism	re objective values v scientific accuracy was re after years can we say that christian morality is in article c j jzv dcs ed ac uk tk dcs ed ac uk tommy kelly wrote in article qjahh mrs horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes science the real world has its basis in values not the other way round as you would wish it you must be using values to mean something different from the way i see it used normally and you are certainly using science like that if you equate it to the real world science is the recognition of patterns in our perceptions of the universe and the making of qualitative and quantitative predictions concerning those perceptions science is the process of modeling the real world based on commonly agreed interpretations of our observations perceptions it has nothing to do with values as far as i can see values are well they are what i value they are what i would have rather than not have what i would experience rather than not and so on values can also refer to meaning for example in computer science the value of is true and is false science is based on commonly agreed values interpretation of observations although science can result in a reinterpretation of these values objective values are a set of values which the proposer believes are applicable to everyone the values underlaying science are not objective since they have never been fully agreed and the change with time the values of newtonian physic are certainly different to those of quantum mechanics steve lang slang sling slink slick slack shack shank thank think thick
alt.atheism	victims of various good fight s in article tekig pen tek com naren tekig pen tek com naren bala writes list of killings in the name of religion iran iraq war civil war in sudan riots in india pakistan in massacares in bangladesh in inquistions in america in s x million x crusades massacre of jews in wwii million massacre of other inferior races in wwii million communist purges million socialism is more or less a religion catholics v protestants quite a few i d imagine recent goings on in bombay iodia sp area disease introduced to brazilian oher s am tribes x million naren the desert brat john j mcvey elc eltnc eng whyalla uni s australia f levels unisa edu au t s a k c darwin o for replies mail to whjjm wh whyalla unisa edu au disclaimer unisa hates my opinions bb bb it doesn t make a rainbow any less beautiful that we god s name is smack understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to for some produce it jim perry perry dsinc com alice in chains
alt.atheism	re keith schneider stealth poster in article pa f innpit gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes but really are you threatened by the motto or by the people that use it every time somone writes something and says it is merely describing the norm it is infact re inforcing that norm upon those programmed not to think for themselves the motto is dangerous in itself it tells the world that every true american is god fearing and puts down those who do not fear gods it doesn t need anyone to make it dangerous it does a good job itself by just existing on your currency keith the desert brat john j mcvey elc eltnc eng whyalla uni s australia f levels unisa edu au t s a k c darwin o for replies mail to whjjm wh whyalla unisa edu au disclaimer unisa hates my opinions bb bb it doesn t make a rainbow any less beautiful that we god s name is smack understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to for some produce it jim perry perry dsinc com alice in chains
alt.atheism	re it s all mary s fault pl u andrew cmu edu patrick c leger writes you know it just occurred to me today that this whole christian thing can be blamed solely on mary so she s married to joseph she gets knocked up what do you think ol joe will do if he finds she s been getting around so mary comes up with this ridiculous story about god making her pregnant nice attempt chris verrry close you missed the conspiracy by step joseph knew who knocked her up he couldn t let it be known that somebody else got ol mary prego that wouldn t do well for his popularity in the local circles so what happened is that she was feeling guilty he was feeling embarrassed and they decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise been the downfall for both clever indeed come to think of it i have gained a new respect for the couple maybe joseph and mary should receive all of the praise being paid to jesus dave buckminster fuller how is that one o keeper of the nicknames
alt.atheism	re origins of the bible adda wainwright writes he stated that thousands of bibles were discovered at a certain point in time which were syllable perfect this therefore meant that there must have been one copy at a certain time the time quoted by my acquaintance was approximately years after the death of jesus this is as far as i know complete nonsense the codification of the bible as we have it now came very much later c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie i apologize for the long delay in getting a response to this posted i ve been working reduced hours the past couple of weeks because i had a son born the day after umar s article was posted btw i did respond within a couple of days but it turns out that a a coincidental news software rearrangement caused postings from this site to silently disappear rather than going out into the world this is a revision of that original response in article c q ct ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes in article ps finnm u dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes only a functional illiterate with absolutely no conception of the nature of the novel could think such a thing this was in response to the claim that rushdie made false statements about the life of mohammed with the disclaimer fiction i know but where is the line between fact and fiction i stand by this distinction between fiction and false statements however it s not for his writing in the satanic verses but for what people have accepted as a propagandistic version of what is contained in that book i have yet to find one single muslim who has convinced me that they have read the book some have initially claimed to have done so but none has shown more knowledge of the book than a superficial newsweek story might impart and all have made factual misstatements about events in the book you keep saying things like this then you accuse people like me of making ad hominem arguments i repeat as i have said in previous postings on aa i have read tsv from cover to cover i had not seen that claim or i might have been less sweeping you have made what i consider factual misstatements about events in the book which i have raised in the past in the islam a clearer view thread as well as the root of the yet more rushdie re islamic law thread my statement was not that you had not read the book but that you had not convinced me that you inter alia had as i said before if you want to defend your position then produce evidence and respond to the evidence i have posted so far you have not of course my statement was not directly aimed at you but broadly at a number of muslim posters who have repeated propaganda about the book indicating that they haven t read it and narrowly at gregg jaeger who subsequently admitted that he hadn t in fact read the book vindicating my skepticism in at least that one case so far the only things i have to go on regarding your own case are a the statements you made concerning the book in the a clearer view posting which i have challenged not interpretation but statements of fact for instance rushdie depicts the women of the most respected family in all of islam as whores and b your claim which i had not seen before this that you have indeed read it cover to cover i am willing to try to resolve this down to a disagreement on critical interpretation but you ll have to support your end by responding to my criticism i have no doubt as to the ability of a particular muslim to go through this book with a highlighter finding passages to take personal offense at but you have upheld the view that tsv is intended as an attack on islam and upon muslims this view must be defended by more than mere assertion if you want anyone to take it seriously i am trying very hard to be amicable and rational and i appreciate it but welcome to the club i am defending my honest opinion that this book should not be construed as a calculated or otherwise insulting attack on islam and the parallel opinion that most of the criticism of the book i have seen is baseless propaganda i have supported my statements and critical interpretationa with in context quotes from the book and rushdie s essays which is more than my correspondents have done of course you are more than welcome to do so jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics chris faehl writes many atheists do not mock the concept of a god they are shocked that so many theists have fallen to such a low level that they actually believe in a god you accuse all atheists of being part of a conspiracy again without evidence rule condescending to the population at large i e theists will not win many people to your faith anytime soon it only ruins your credibility fallacy atheism is a faith lo i hear the faq beckoning once again wonderful rule deleted you re correct you didn t say anything about a conspiracy correction hard atheism is a faith rule don t mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination by the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic to his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions of his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone be worse than that i will not explain this to you again stalin did nothing in the name of atheism whethe he was or was not an atheist is irrelevant get a grip man the stalin example was brought up not as an indictment of atheism but merely as another example of how people will kill others under any name that s fit for the occasion rule if you rely on evidence state it we re waiting as opposed to relying on a bunch of black ink on some crumbling old paper atheism has to prove nothing to you or anyone else it is the burden of dogmatic religious bullshit to provide their evidence which we might you be referring to and how long are you going to wait so hard atheism has nothing to prove then how does it justify that god does not exist i know there s the faq etc but guess what if those justifications were so compelling why aren t people flocking to hard atheism they re not and they won t i for one will discourage people from hard atheism by pointing out those very sources as reliable statements on hard atheism second what makes you think i m defending any given religion i m merely recognizing hard atheism for what it is a faith and yes by we i am referring to every reader of the post where is the evidence that the poster stated that he relied upon oh yes though i m not a theist i can say safely that by definition many theists are not arrogant since they boast about something outside themselves namely a god or gods so in principle it s hard to see how theists are necessarily arrogant because they say such and such is absolutely unalterably true because my dogma says it is true i am not prepared to issue blanket statements indicting all theists of arrogance as you are wont to do with atheists bzzt by virtue of your innocent little pronoun they you ve just issued a blanket statement at least i will apologize by qualifying my original statement with hard atheist in place of atheist would you call john the baptist arrogant who boasted of one greater than he that s what many christians do today how is that in itself arrogant i m not worthy only seriously misinformed with your sophisticated put down of they the theists your serious misinformation shines through bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was re genocide is caused by atheism in bb c i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes and it is he god almighty who created the night and the day and the sun and the earth all the celetial bodies swim along each in its rounded course holy quran hmm this agrees with the ptolemic system of the earth at the centre with the planets orbitting round it so copernicus and gallileo were wrong after all you haven t read very carefully if you look again you will see that it doesn t say anything about what is circling what anyway they are not moving in circles oops sorry my words not the words of the qur an nor is there any evidence that everything goes around in a rounded course in a general sense wishy washy statements are not scientific note that the celestial bodies in the above verse is an interpolation which is why it is in brackets it is the translator s incorrect imho interpretation here is maurice bucaille s translation he studied arabic for his research into the qur an and science of this verse god is the one who created the night the day the sun and the moon each is travelling in an orbit with its own motion qur an the positive aspect of this verse noted by dr maurice bucaille is that while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time and for a long time afterwards there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse or anywhere in the qur an fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was re genocide is caused by atheism in cindy apr solan solan unit no cindy solan solan unit no cynthia kandolf writes various quotes deleted in the interest of saving a little bit of bandwidth but i will copy the koran quote and it is he god almighty who created the night and the day and the sun and the earth all the celetial bodies swim along each in its rounded course holy quran as it has been pointed out this quote makes no claim about what orbits what the idea that something orbited something had been held as true for many years before the koran was written so the fact that it says something orbits something is hardly surprising insight my concern is with the word rounded there are two interpretations of this word it means in a circle this is wrong although many believed it to be true at the time the koran was written in other words it is not describing our neighborhood of the universe as it really exists but as it was thought to be at the time this has implications which i hope are obvious to everyone it means in a rounded shape which could include elipses the geometrical form which most nearly describes the orbits of the planets this is also not a great insight look at the shapes you see in nature very few of them even approach a square or rectangle those are human created shapes everything in nature is rounded to some degree even the flat earthers don t try to claim earth is a rectangle children who draw imaginary animals seldom give them rectangular bodies we seem to instinctively recognize that nature produces rounded shapes hence the assumption that the orbits of the planets would be round hardly takes divine inspiration it is good to remember that every translation is to some extent an interpretation so as you point out below one must really go back to the original arabic regarding the verses relevant to nature i prefer to use dr maurice bucaille s translations in his book the bible the qur an and science for in general his translations are more literal maurice bucaille translates the portion of the verse you are addressing as each one is travelling with an orbit in its own motion also note that the celestial bodies in the first translation quoted by you above is the translator s interpolation it is not existent in the original arabic which is why it is included in brackets perhaps someone who can read the original arabic can eliminate one of these interpretations at any rate neither one of them is exactly impressive you re right what the verses do contain isn t all that remarkable however dr bucaille a surgeon that s how he s a dr thinks it is significant that the above verse contains no geocentric ideas even though geocentrism was all the rage up until the th century or so and this goes for the rest of the qur an as well which has about verses or so regarding nature i think i remember reading once fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in article c qgm dl news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely a question for the basis of morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior i disagree with these what society thinks should be irrelevant what the individual decides is all that is important who is society i think this is fairly obvious how do they define what is acceptable generally by what they feel is right which is the most idiotic policy i can think of how do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position by thinking for ourselves mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	re origins of the bible in article apr cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk a wainwright writes hi i have been having an argument about the origins of the bible lately with a theist acquaintance he stated that thousands of bibles were discovered at a certain point in time which were syllable perfect this therefore meant that there must have been one copy at a certain time the time quoted by my acquaintace was approximately years after the death of jesus hi adda most bible scholars agree that there was one copy of each book at a certain time the time when the author wrote it unfortunately like all works from this time period and earlier all that exists today are copies cutting all of the crap out of the way ie god wrote it could anyone answer the following how old is the oldest surviving copy of the new testament there are parts of books scraps really that date from around the mid second century a d there are some complete books letters etc from the middle third century the first complete collection of the new testament dates from the early th century a d throughout this period are writings of various early church fathers leaders who quoted various scriptures in their writings is there any truth in my acquaintance s statements if you mean that someone discovered thousands of bibles which were all perfect copies dating from the last part of the st century no if you mean that there are thousands of early manuscripts within the dates given above but not letter perfect and that the most probable text can be reconstructed from these documents and that the earliest original autographs now lost probably were written starting sometime shortly after a d then yes from who where did the bible originate from the original authors we call them matthew mark luke john peter paul james and one other not identified how long is a piece of string as long as you make it adda regards jim b
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics james hogan writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes jim hogan quips summary of jim s stuff jim i m afraid you ve missed the point thus i think you ll have to admit that atheists have a lot more up their sleeve than you might have suspected nah i will encourage people to learn about atheism to see how little atheists have up their sleeves whatever i might have suspected is actually quite meager if you want i ll send them your address to learn less about your faith faith yeah do you expect people to read the faq etc and actually accept hard atheism no you need a little leap of faith jimmy your logic runs out of steam fine but why do these people shoot themselves in the foot and mock the idea of a god i hope you understand now yes jim i do understand now thank you for providing some healthy sarcasm that would have dispelled any sympathies i would have had for your faith bake real glad you detected the sarcasm angle but am really bummin that i won t be getting any of your sympathy still if your inclined to have sympathy for somebody s faith you might try one of the religion newsgroups just be careful over there though make believe i m whispering in your ear here they re all delusional jim sorry i can t pity you jim and i m sorry that you have these feelings of denial about the faith you need to get by oh well just pretend that it will all end happily ever after anyway maybe if you start a new newsgroup alt atheist hard you won t be bummin so much good job jim bye bake more slim jim tm deleted bye bake bye bye bye bye big jim don t forget your flintstone s chewables bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	studies on book of mormon hi i don t know much about mormons and i want to know about serious independent studies about the book of mormon i don t buy the official story about the gold original taken to heaven but haven t read the book of mormon by myself i have to much work learning biblical hebrew i will appreciate any comment about the results of study in style vocabulary place names internal consistency and so on for example there is evidence for one writer or multiple writers there are some mention about events places or historical persons later discovered by archeologist yours in collen andres grino brandt casilla santiago agrino enkidu mic cl chile no hay mas realidad que la realidad y la razon es su profeta
alt.atheism	re gulf war and peace niks in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes wait a minute you said never play a chamberlain since the us is playing chamberlain as far as east timor is concerned wouldn t that lead you to think that your argument is irrelevant and had nothing to do with the gulf war actually i rather like your idea perhaps the rest of the world should have bombed or maybe missiled washington when the us invaded nicaragua grenada panama vietnam mexico hawaii or any number of other places wait a minute doug i know you are better informed than that the us has never invaded nicaragua as far as i know we liberated grenada from the cubans to protect us citizens there and to prevent the completion of a strategic air strip panama we invaded true twice this century vietnam we were invited in by the government of s vietnam i guess we invaded saudi arabia during the gulf war eh mexico we have invaded mexico or times once this century but there were no missiles for anyone to shoot over here at that time hawaii we liberated it from spain so if you mean by the word invaded some sort of military action where we cross someone s border you are right out of but normally invaded carries a connotation of attacking an autonomous nation if some nation invades the u s virgin islands would they be invading the virgin islands or the u s so from this point of view your score falls to out of mexico panama what s a peace nik is that somebody who doesn t masturbate over guns n ammo or what is it supposed to be bad to be a peace nik no it s someone who believes in peace at all costs in other words a person who would have supported giving hitler not only austria and czechoslakia but poland too if it could have averted the war and one who would allow hitler to wipe all all jews slavs and political dissidents in areas he controlled as long as he left the rest of us alone is it supposed to be bad to be a peace nik you ask well it depends on what your values are if you value life over liberty peace over freedom then i guess not but if liberty and freedom mean more to you than life itself if you d rather die fighting for liberty than live under a tyrant s heel then yes it s bad to be a peace nik the problem with most peace niks it they consider those of us who are not like them to be bad and unconscionable i would not have any argument or problem with a peace nik if they held to their ideals and stayed out of all conflicts or issues especially those dealing with the national defense but no they are not willing to allow us to legitimately hold a different point of view they militate and many times resort to violence all in the name of peace what rank hypocrisy all to stop we warmongers who are willing to stand up and defend our freedoms against tyrants and who realize that to do so requires a strong national defense time to get off the soapbox now doug graham dgraham bnr ca my opinions are my own regards jim b
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics nancyo fraser sfu ca nancy patricia o connor writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes rule don t mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination by the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic to his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions of his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone be worse than that you re right and david koresh claimed to be a christian yup i can hear the millions cheering for dk right now josef stalin eat your heart out bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	he has risen our lord and savior david keresh has risen he has been seen alive spread the word my sole intention was learning to fly
alt.atheism	re idle questions for fellow atheists acooper mac cc macalstr edu wrote i wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of the world if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group of the population i ve been thinking about this every now and then since i cut my ties with christianity it is surprising to note that a large majority of people at least in finland seem to be apatheists even though of the population are members of the lutheran church of finland religious people are actually a minority could it be possible that many people believe in god just in case it seems people do not want to seek the truth they fall prey to pascal s wager or other poor arguments a small minority of those who do believe reads the bible regularly the majority doesn t care it believes but doesn t know what or how people don t usually allow their beliefs to change their lifestyle they only want to keep the virtual gate open a christian would say that they are not born in the spirit but this does not disturb them religion is not something to think about i m afraid a society with a true atheist majority is an impossible dream religions have a strong appeal to people nevertheless a promise of life after death is something humans eagerly listen to coupled with threats of eternal torture and the idea that our morality is under constant scrutiny of some cosmic cop too many people take the poison with a smile or just pretend to swallow and unconsciously hope god wouldn t notice also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking the typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the same inherent motivation so one is not intrinsically different from the other qualitatively but then again a measuring stick must be drawn somewhere and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery ie how it expresses its own selfishness if logic and reason are valued then i would claim that atheistic thinking is of higher value than the theistic exposition theists make unnecessary assumptions they believe in i ve yet to see good reasons to believe in gods or to take a leap of faith at all a revelation would do however why do we value logic and reasoning this questions bears some resemblance to a long disputed problem in science why mathematics works strong deep structuralists like atkins have proposed that perhaps after all everything is mathematics is usefulness any criterion petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in article c r at asv news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in qvabj g j horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article c qgm dl news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes am i making a wrong assumption for the basis of morals where do they come from the question came from the idea that i heard that morals come from whatever is societally mandated it s only one aspect of morality societal morality is necessarily very crude and broad brush stuff which attempts to deal with what is necessary to keep that society going and often it s a little over enthusiastic about doing so individual morality is a different thing it often includes societal mores or society is in trouble but is stronger for example some people are vegetarian though eating meat may be perfectly legal merely a question for the basis of morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior who is society depends on the society doesn t help is the point irrelevant no often the answer is we are but if society is those who make the rules that s a different question if society is who should make the rules that s yet another i don t claim to have the answers either but i don t think we do it very well in ireland and i like some things about the us system at least in principle how do they define what is acceptable depends on again this comes from a certain question see above well ideally they don t but if they must they should do it by consensus imo how do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position by adopting a default position that people s moral decisions are none of society s business so how can we put people in jail how can we condemn other societies because sometimes that s necessary the hard trick is to recognise when it is and equally importantly when it isn t and only interfering when it s truly necessary why would it be necessary what right do we have to interfere imo it isn t often that interference i e jail and force of various kinds and degrees is both necessary and effective where you derive the right to interfere is a difficult question it s a sort of liar s paradox force is necessary for freedom one possible justification is that people who wish to take away freedom shouldn t object if their own freedom is taken away the paradox doesn t arise if we don t actively wish to take way anyone s freedom the introduction of permissible interference causes the problem that it can be either too much or too little but most people seem to agree that some level of interference is necessary they see the need for a justice system how can we even define that term only by consensus i guess thus you get a situation where the law often allows what honour forbids which i ve come to believe is as it should be i admit i don t understand that statement what i mean is that while thus and such may be legal thus and such may also be seen as immoral the law lets you do it but you don t let yourself do it eating meat for example frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re islamic genocide in p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes date apr gmt from frank o dwyer frank d s uucp in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes just borrowing your post mr rice in p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes are you sure that democracy is the driving force behind the massacres in east timor it is certainly odd that so many of the worlds massacres occur along religious lines independently of any claims to a democratic form of government are ireland and northern ireland considered democracies would you attribute their problems to democracy even though they are democracies which motivates them more religion or democracy mr rice was pointing out a fallacy in the assertion that islam is evil because some of those who claim to follow it are evil not asserting that democracy causes massacres as i read it that is right he was and i was pointing out that his use of indonesians killing the east timorese as a result of democracy was a bit weak because democracy is not much of a motivation for doing much of anything in indonesia from what i remember east timor was a former portguese territory which was forcibly annexed by indonesia last i heard over indonesians have died trying to keep east timor a part of indonesia being a former portuguese colony there is a strong catholic influence in east timor as i recall so it seems a bit odd that yet again we have another war being fought between people who just happen to have different religions purely coincidental i guess but then the real motivation is to get the vote out and make democracy work in indonesia i pointed out the secession movement in aceh which has also been brutally dealt with in the past by the indonesian government the harshly with all secessionist movements the evidence it appears to me that the indonesian government has dealt very harshly with all secession movements i know that the head of the indonesian armed forces for a very long time was benny murdani a christian indonesia has been heavy handed in east timor for a long time even when murdani was head of the armed forces the people who make up the indonesian government are in general motivated by national interests not religious ones fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics robert knowles writes my my there are a few atheists with time on their hands ok first i apologize i didn t bother reading the faq first and so fired an imprecise flame that was inexcusable how about the nickname bake flamethrower timmons sure but robert koresh fetesh sic knowles seems good too you weren t at the koresh compound around noon today by any chance were you remember koresh dried for your sins and pass that beef jerky umm umm though i wasn t there at least i can rely on you now to keep me posted on what what he s doing have you any other fetishes besides those for beef jerky and david koresh bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article c prca news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb says in vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes in article c l ey jts news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes if i m wrong god is free at any time to correct my mistake that he continues not to do so while supposedly proclaiming his undying love for my eternal soul speaks volumes what are the volumes that it speaks besides the fact that he leaves your choices up to you leaves the choices up to us but gives us no better reason to believe than an odd story of his alleged son getting killed for us and little new in the past few thousand years leaving us with only the texts passed down through centuries of meddling with the meaning and even wording most of this passing down and interpretation of course coming from those who have a vested interest in not allowing the possibility that it might not be the ultimate truth what about maybe talking to us directly eh he s a big god right he ought to be able to make time for the creations he loves so much at least enough to give us each a few words of direct conversation what he s too busy to get around to all of us or maybe a few unquestionably miraculous works here and there speaks volumes upon volumes to me that i ve never gotten a chance to meet the guy and chat with him
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war in article f rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article e rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes yes fortunately we have right thinking folks like your good self in power and it was therefore deemed acceptable to slaughter tens or even hundreds o thousands of iraqis in order to liberate oil h h hkuwait we won the war hurrah hurrah the number of civilian iraqi deaths were way over exaggerated and exploited for anti war emotionalism by the liberal news media the facts are that less iraqis died in the gulf war than did civilians in any other war of comparable size this century let s analyze this claim a little how is the size of a war defined by number of participants geographical area number of countries involved number of casualties size of armies duration numbers of casualties both absolute and as a percentage of those involved geographical area and numbers of countries too are all measures of size in this case i d say the relevant statistic would be the number of combatants total troops compared to total casualties from among the total civilian population in the affected geographical area which other comparable wars are we talking about vietnam and korea might make good comparisons which liberal news media are we talking about western news in general but in particular the american mass media cbs nbc abc etc the general tone of the news during the whole war was one of those poor poor iraqis along with look how precisely this cruise missile blew this building to bits this was due mostly to the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques which were technically possible only recently i suspect that medical advances may have something to do with it too i agree how about all the innocent people who died in blanket bombing in ww i don t hear you bemoaning them perhaps because the topic hasn t cropped up if you want my opinion i think that the blanket bombing of german cities at the end of world war two was the most appalling act of wholesale slaughter this country has committed in centuries bomber harris was no hero of mine perhaps so and maybe the atomic bomb was a mistake too but that s easy to say from our enlightened viewpoint here in the s right back then it was all out war and germany and japan had to be squashed after all a million or more british had already died hundreds of thousands of french a couple hundread thousand or so americans and millions of russians not to mention a few million jews poles and other people of slavic descent in german concentration camps all things considered the fire bombings and the atomic bomb were essential and therefore justified in bringing the war to a quick end to avoid even greater allied losses i for one don t regret it war is never an exact science but with smart bombs it s becoming more exact with a smaller percentage of civilian casualties sometimes mistakes are made targets are misidentified innocents die that s war the way it really is entrenched political rulers operating in their own selfish interests without regard for the lives of other people that is the way war really is sure and it s the people who suffer because of them all the more reason to depose these entrenched political rulers operating in their own selfish interests or do you mean that this applies to the allies as well why all the fuss about kuwait and not east timor bosnia or even tibet if iraq is so bad why were we still selling them stuff a couple of weeks before we started bombing i make no claim or effort to justify the misguided foreign policy of the west before the war it is evident that the west especially america misjudged hussein drastically but once hussein invaded kuwait and threatened to militarily corner a significant portion of the world s oil supply he had to be stopped sure the war could have been prevented by judicious and concerted effort on the part of the west before hussein invaded kuwait but it is still hussein who is responsible for his decision to invade and once he did so a strong response from the west was required mathew your sarcasm is noted but you are completely off base here you come off sounding like a complete peace nik idiot although i feel sure that was not your intent what s your intent to sound like a loving christian well you aren t doing a very good job of it well it s not very loving to allow a hussein or a hitler to gobble up nearby countries and keep them or to allow them to continue with mass slaughter of certain peoples under their dominion so i d have to say yes stopping hussein was the most loving thing to do for the most people involved once he set his mind on military conquest so the iraqi war was wrong eh i m sure that appeasement would have worked better than war just like it did in ww eh who even mentioned appeasement and what makes you think the situation is even remotely analogous to world war two i mentioned it if we hadn t intervened allowing hussein to keep kuwait then it would have been appeasement it is precisely the lessons the world learned in ww that motivated the western alliance to war letting hitler take austria and czechoslavkia did not stop ww from happening and letting hussein keep kuwait would not have stopped an eventual gulf war to protect saudi arabia i guess we shouldn t have fought ww either just think of all those innocent german civilians killed in dresden and hamburg yes do germans are human too you know sure what was truly unfortunate was that they followed hitler in his grandiose quest for a thousand year reich the consequences stemmed from that tyrants like hussein have to be stopped his kind don t understand diplomacy they only understand the point of a gun my only regret is that bush wimped out and didn t have the military roll into baghdad so now hussein is still in power and the iraqi people s sacrifice not to mention the americans who died was for naught i look forward to hearing your incisive comments about east timor and tibet what should i say about them anything in particular and as for poor poor rodney king did you ever stop and think why the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of not guilty yes amongst the things i thought were hmm there s an awful lot of white people in that jury so it was the policemen on trial not rodney king and under american law they deserved a jury of their peers if there had been black officers involved i m sure their would have been black jurors too this point of allegedly racial motivations is really shallow those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape but the jury looked at all the evidence evidence which you and i have not seen when i see a bunch of policemen beating someone who s lying defenceless on the ground it s rather hard to imagine what this other evidence might have been so it s hard to imagine so when has argument from incredulity gained acceptance from the revered author of constructing a logical argument can we expect another revision soon just kidding if there is some wonderful evidence why is it seemingly being kept secret why not tell everyone what it is then everyone could say oh yes you re right king deserved a good beating and we could all live happily ever after i have to admit that i wonder this too but neither the prosecution nor the defense is talking so one cannot conclude either way due to the silence of the principals law in this country is intended to protect the rights of the accused whether they be criminals or cops one is not found guilty if there is a reasonable doubt of one s guilt and only the jury is in a position to assess the evidence and render a verdict fine but i m still finding it hard to imagine what the reasonable doubt was in this case i mean the cops certainly seem to be beating someone who s lying defenceless on the ground what s your explanation mass hallucination orbital mind control lasers faked video footage do tell ok it certainly seemed to me that there was excessive force involved and frankly the original not guilty verdict baffled me too but then i learned that the prosecution in the first case did not try to convict on a charge of excessive force or simple assault which they probably would have won they tried to get a conviction on a charge of aggravated assault with intent to inflict serious bodily harm a charge which news commentators said was akin to attempted murder under california law based on what the prosecution was asking for it s evident that the first jury decided that the officers were not guilty note not not guilty of doing wrong but not guilty of aggravated assault with the intent of inflicting serious bodily harm the seeds of the prosecutions defeat were in their own overconfidence in obtaining a verdict such that they went for the most extreme charge they could if the facts as the news commentators presented them are true then i feel the not guilty verdict was a reasonable one mathew thou shalt not kill unless thou hast a pretty good reason for killing in which case thou shalt kill and also kill anyone who gets in the way as unfortunately it cannot be helped jim brown bible for loving christians thanks mathew i like the quote pretty funny actually i m a monty python fan you know kind of seems in that vein of course oversimplifying any moral argument can make it seem contradictory but then you know that already regards jim b loving christian
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c pxqs lm darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner says dean kaflowitz decay cbnewsj cb att com wrote now what i am interested in is the original notion you were discussing on moral free agency that is how can a god punish a person for not believing in him when that person is only following his or her nature and it is not possible for that person to deny what his or her reason tells him or her which is that there is no god i think you re letting atheist mythology confuse you on the issue of webster myth a traditional or legendary story a belief whose truth is accepted uncritically how does that qualify indeed it s almost oxymoronic a rather amusing instance i ve found that most atheists hold almost no atheist views as accepted uncritically especially the few that are legend many are trying to explain basic truths as myths do but they don t meet the other criterions also divine justice according to the most fundamental doctrines of christianity when the first man sinned he was at that time the you accuse him of referencing mythology then you procede to launch your own xtian mythology this time meeting all the requirements of myth salvation the idea of punishment is based on the proposition that everyone knows instinctively that god exists is their creator and ah but not everyone knows that god exists so you have a fallacy there s nothing terribly difficult in all this and is well known to any reasonably biblically literate christian the only controversy is and that makes it true holding with the bible rules out controversy read the faq if you ve read it you missed something so re read not a bad suggestion for anyone i re read it just before this with those who pretend not to know what is being said and what it means when atheists claim that they do not know if god exists and don t know what he wants they contradict the bible which clearly says that everyone knows the authority of the bible is its claim to be should i repeat what i wrote above for the sake of getting it across you may trust the bible but your trusting it doesn t make it any more credible to me if the bible says that everyone knows that s clearly reason to doubt the bible because not everyone knows your alleged god s alleged existance refuted while the species wide condemnation is justified those that claim that there is no evidence for the existence of god or that his will is unknown must deliberately ignore the bible the ignorance itself is no excuse no they don t have to ignore the bible the bible is far from universally accepted the bible is not a proof of god it is only a proof that some people have thought that there was a god or does it prove even that they might have been writing it as series of fiction short stories as in the case of dionetics assuming the writers believed it the only thing it could possibly prove is that they believed it and that s ignoring the problem of whether or not all the interpretations and biblical philosophers were correct there are people who have truly never heard of the bible again read the faq freedom you are free to ignore god in the same way you are free to ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known in both cases that an atheist can t accept the evidence means only bzzt wrong answer gravity is directly there it doesn t stop exerting a direct and rationally undeniable influence if you ignore it god on the other hand doesn t generally show up in the supermarket except on the tabloids god doesn t exert a rationally undeniable influence gravity is obvious gods aren t secondly human reason is very comforatble with the concept of god so much so that it is in itself intrinsic to our nature human reason always comes back to the question of god in every generation and in no human reason hasn t always come back to the existance of god it has usually come back to the existance of god in other words it doesn t generally come back to the xtian god it comes back to whether there is any god and in much of oriental philosophic history it generally doesn t pop up as the idea of a god so much as the question of what natural forces are and which ones are out there from a world wide view human nature just makes us wonder how the universe came to be and or what force s are currently in control a natural tendancy to believe in god only exists in religious wishful thinking i said all this to make the point that christianity is eminently reasonable that divine justice is just and human nature is much different than what atheists think it is whether you agree or not xtianity is no more reasonable than most other religions and it s reasonableness certainly doesn t merit eminence divine justice well it only seems just to those who already believe in the divinity first not all atheists believe the same things about human nature second whether most atheists are correct or not you certainly are not correct on human nature you are at the least basing your views on a completely eurocentric approach try looking at the outside world as well when you attempt to sum up all of humanity andrew
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by theism evidence in article qibo f o horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in the absence of some convincing evidence that theist fanatics are more dangerous than atheist fanatics i ll continue to be wary of fanatics of any stripe i think that the agnostic fanatics are the most dangerous of the lot fair point actually i mentioned theists and atheists but left out agnostics mea culpa no wonder in the light of that you are a probably a theist who tries to pass as an agnostic i still remember your post about your daughter singing chrismas carols and your feelings of it well by the way would you show marginal honesty and answer the many questions you left open when you ceased to respond last time benedikt
alt.atheism	re islamic genocide in article qi b ec horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes deletion few people can imagine dying for capitalism a few more can imagine dying for democracy but a lot more will die for their lord and savior jesus christ who died on the cross for their sins motivation pure and simple got any cites for this nonsense how many people will die for mom patriotism freedom money their kids fast cars and swimming pools a night with kim basinger or mel gibson and which of these things are evil read a history book fred and tell me why so many religions command to commit genocide when it has got nothing to do with religion or why so many religions say that not living up to the standards of the religion is worse than dieing coincidence i assume or ist part of the absolute morality you describe so often theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes irrational belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism benedikt
alt.atheism	re where are they now in article ql d vo dr pepper east sun com geoff east sun com geoff arnold sun bos r h coast near the top writes your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable posts the first i captured was by ken arromdee on feb on the subject re atheist too that was article here your question was article which is an average of about articles a day for the last three years as others have noted the current posting rate is such that my kill file is depressing large among the posting i saved in the early days were articles from the following notables hey it might to interesting to read some of these posts especially from ones who still regularly posts on alt atheism from loren sunlight llnl gov loren petrich from jchrist nazareth israel rel jesus christ of nazareth from mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu mark crispin from perry apollo hp com jim perry from lippard uavax ccit arizona edu james j lippard from minsky media mit edu marvin minsky an interesting bunch i wonder where is hee hee hee i ain t going to say whatever promises that have been made can than be broken john laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists in article ql mdinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes this whole thread started because of a discussion about whether or not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment which is forbidden by the us constitution yes but they didn t say what they meant by cruel which is why a you have the supreme court and b it makes no sense to refer to the constitution which is quite silent on the meaning of the word cruel they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution they picked words whose meanings implied the intent we have already looked in the dictionary to define the word isn t this sufficient we only need to ask the question what did the founding fathers consider cruel and unusual punishment hanging hanging there slowing being strangled would be very painful both physically and psychologicall i imagine firing squad note not a clean way to die back in those days etc all would be considered cruel under your definition all were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers whatever promises that have been made can than be broken john laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article ql ajinn kj gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes well chimps must have some system they live in social groups as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior why must whatever promises that have been made can than be broken john laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes the arguements he uses i am summing up the book is about whether jesus was god or not i know many of you don t believe but listen to a different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what others have to say read the faq first watch the list fr some weeks and come back then and read some other books on the matter in order to broaden your view first benedikt
alt.atheism	re who says the apostles were tortured in article qiu innpq srvr engin umich edu ingles engin umich edu ray ingles writes as evidence for the resurrection it is often claimed that the disciples were tortured to death for their beliefs and still did not renounce their claim that jesus had come back from the dead now i skimmed acts and such and i found a reference to this happening to stephen but no others where does this apparently very widely held belief come from is there any evidence outside the bible is there any evidence in the bible i sure haven t found any early authors and legends the most important sources can be found in the martyriologia of the catholic church makes the grimms look like exact science benedikt
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article qlfd inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well chimps must have some system they live in social groups as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior so why must they have such laws the quotation marks should enclose laws not must if there were no such rules even instinctive ones or unwritten ones etc then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society into chaos the system refered to a moral system you havn t shown any reason that chimps must have a moral system except if you would like to redefine everything whatever promises that have been made can than be broken john laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
alt.atheism	re where are they now in article ql d vo dr pepper east sun com geoff east sun com writes your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable posts the first i captured was by ken arromdee on feb on the subject re atheist too that was article here your question was article which is an average of about articles a day for the last three years as others have noted the current posting rate is such that my kill file is depressing large among the posting i saved in the early days were articles from the following notables from loren sunlight llnl gov loren petrich from jchrist nazareth israel rel jesus christ of nazareth from mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu mark crispin from perry apollo hp com jim perry from lippard uavax ccit arizona edu james j lippard from minsky media mit edu marvin minsky an interesting bunch i wonder where is didn t you hear his address has changed he can be reached at the following address dkoresh branch davidian compound waco tx us i think he was last seen posting to alt messianic jim if god is dead and the actor plays his part sting his words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart history without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse will teach us without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	re free moral agency are you saying that their was a physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents of only these two human beings then who were cain and able s wives couldn t be their sisters because a e didn t have daughters were they non humans genesis and the days of adam after he begat seth were eight hundred years and he begat sons and daughters felicitations chris ho stuart
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long in article x rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article f rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes which liberal news media are we talking about western news in general but in particular the american mass media cbs nbc abc etc the general tone of the news during the whole war was one of those poor poor iraqis along with look how precisely this cruise missile blew this building to bits most odd over here there was very little about the suffering of the iraqi civilians until towards the end of the war and then it was confined to the few remaining quality newspapers true at first the news media seemed entranced by all the new gizmos the military was using not to mention the taped video transmissions from the missiles as they zeroed in on their targets but later and especially after the bunker full of civilians was hit they changed their tone it seemed to me that they didn t have the stomach for the reality of war that innocent people really do die and are maimed in warfare it s like they were only pro gulf war as long as it was nice and clean smart missiles dropping in on military hqs but not when pictures of dead dying and maimed civilians started cropping up what naive hypocrites how about all the innocent people who died in blanket bombing in ww i don t hear you bemoaning them discussion about blanket bombing and a bombs deleted all things considered the fire bombings and the atomic bomb were essential and therefore justified in bringing the war to a quick end to avoid even greater allied losses i should have said here militarily justified it seems from your comments below that you understood this as meaning morally justified i apologize what about the evidence that america knew japan was about to surrender after hiroshima but before nagasaki is that another lie peddled by the liberal media conspiracy i have often wondered about this i ve always thought that the first bomb should have been dropped on japan s island fortress of truk a good inpenatrable military target the second bomb could ve been held back for use on an industrial center if need be but i digress yes i have heard that we found evidence after the war btw that japan was seriously considering surrender after the first bomb unfortunately the military junta won out over the moderates and rejected the us s ulimatum therefore the second bomb was dropped most unfortunate imo i for one don t regret it nuke a jap for jesus i don t regret the fact that sometimes military decisions have to be made which affect the lives of innocent people but i do regret the circumstances which make those decisions necessary and i regret the suffering caused by those decisions why all the fuss about kuwait and not east timor bosnia or even tibet if iraq is so bad why were we still selling them stuff a couple of weeks before we started bombing i make no claim or effort to justify the misguided foreign policy of the west before the war it is evident that the west especially america misjudged hussein drastically but once hussein invaded kuwait and threatened to militarily corner a significant portion of the world s oil supply he had to be stopped oh i see so we can overlook his using chemical weapons on thousands of people but if he threatens your right to drive a huge gas guzzling car well the man s gotta go actually it was the fact that both situations existed that prompted us and allied action if some back water country took over some other back water country we probably wouldn t intervene not that we don t care but we can t be the world s policman or if a coup had occured in kuwait instead of an invasion then we still wouldn t have acted because there would not have been the imminent danger perceived to saudi arabia but the combination of the two an unprovoked invasion by a genocidal tyrant and the potential danger to the west s oil interests caused us to take action i ve moved a paragraph from here to later on if we hadn t intervened allowing hussein to keep kuwait then it would have been appeasement right but did you ever hear anyone advocate such a course of action or are you just setting up a strawman i m not setting up a strawman at all if you want to argue against the war then the only logical alternative was to allow hussein to keep kuwait diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective i guess we shouldn t have fought ww either just think of all those innocent german civilians killed in dresden and hamburg yes do germans are human too you know sure what was truly unfortunate was that they followed hitler in his grandiose quest for a thousand year reich the consequences stemmed from that translation they were asking for it well in a sense yes they probably had no idea of what end hitler would lead their nation to but what about those who didn t support hitler s dreams of conquest it s not as if they democratically voted for all his policies the nsdap got in the elections of and that was the last chance the german people got to vote on the matter they suffered along with the rest why does this bother you so much the world is full of evil and circumstances are not perfect many innocents suffer due to the wrongful actions of others it it regretable but that s the way it is there are no perfect solutions i look forward to hearing your incisive comments about east timor and tibet what should i say about them anything in particular the people of east timor are still being killed by a dictatorship that invaded their country hell even western journalists have been killed all this was happening before the gulf war why didn t we send in the bombers to east timor why aren t we sending in the bombers now probably because we re not the saviors of the world we can t police each and every country that decides to self destruct or invade another nor are we in a strategic position to get relief to tibet east timor or some other places here s that paragraph i moved what s your intent to sound like a loving christian well you aren t doing a very good job of it well it s not very loving to allow a hussein or a hitler to gobble up nearby countries and keep them or to allow them to continue with mass slaughter of certain peoples under their dominion so i d have to say yes stopping hussein was the most loving thing to do for the most people involved once he set his mind on military conquest the chinese government has a policy of mandatory abortion and sterilization of tibetans tibetan people are rounded up tortured and executed amnesty international recently reported that torture is still widespread in china why aren t we stopping them in fact why are we actively sucking up to them by trading freely with them tell me how we could stop them and i ll support it i for one do not agree with the present us policy of sucking up to them as you put it i agree that it is deplorable and as for poor poor rodney king did you ever stop and think why the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of not guilty yes amongst the things i thought were hmm there s an awful lot of white people in that jury so it was the policemen on trial not rodney king erm surely it s irrelevant who s on trial juries are supposed to represent a cross section of the population are they or are they supposed to reflect the population of the locale where the trial is held normally this is where the crime is committed unless one party or the other can convince the judge a change of venue is in order i m not an expert on california law or even us law but it seems that this is the way the system is set up you can criticize the system but let s not have unfounded allegations of racial prejudice thrown around and under american law they deserved a jury of their peers you are saying that black people are not the peers of white people no not at all the point is that the fact that there were no blacks on the first jury and that rodney king is black is totally irrelevant this point of allegedly racial motivations is really shallow this idea of people only being tried before a jury of people just like them is really stupid should the nuremburg trials have had a jury entirely made up of nazis germans perhaps peers doesn t mean those who do the same thing like having murderers judge murderers it means having people from the same station in life presumably because they are in a better position to understand the defendent s motivation s those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape but the jury looked at all the evidence evidence which you and i have not seen when i see a bunch of policemen beating someone who s lying defenceless on the ground it s rather hard to imagine what this other evidence might have been so it s hard to imagine so when has argument from incredulity gained acceptance from the revered author of constructing a logical argument we re not talking about a logical argument we re talking about a court of law as the faq points out some fallacious arguments are not viewed as fallacies in a court of law ok granted however you are using this reasoning as part of your logical argument in this discussion this is not a court of law if the facts as the news commentators presented them are true then i feel the not guilty verdict was a reasonable one were you not talking earlier about the bias of the liberal media conspiracy the media is not totally monolithic even though there is a prevailing liberal bias programs such as the macneil lehrer news hour try to give a balanced and fair reporting of the news there are even conservative sources out there if you know where to look hurrah for rush btw i never used the word conspiracy i don t accept without far more evidence theories that there is some all pervading liberal conspiracy attempting to take over all news sources thou shalt not kill unless thou hast a pretty good reason for killing in which case thou shalt kill and also kill anyone who gets in the way as unfortunately it cannot be helped jim brown bible for loving christians thanks mathew i like the quote pretty funny actually i m a monty python fan you know kind of seems in that vein of course oversimplifying any moral argument can make it seem contradictory but then you know that already ha ha only serious i an atheist am arguing against killing innocent people you a supposed christian are arguing that it s ok to kill innocent people so long as you get some guilty ones as well hardly i didn t say that it s a good thing tm to kill innocent people if the end is just unfortunately we don t live in a perfect world and there are no perfect solutions if one is going to resist tyranny then innocent people on both sides are going to suffer and die i didn t say it is ok it is unfortunate but sometimes necessary i a moral relativist am arguing that saturation bombing of german cities at the end of world war ii was as far as i can see an evil and unnecessary act i would agree that it was evil in the sense that it caused much pain and suffering i m not so sure that it was unnecessary as you say that conclusion can only be arrived at by evaluating all the factors involved and perhaps it was unnecessary as let s say we now know that doesn t mean that those who had to make the decision to bomb didn t see it as being necessary rarely can one have full known of the consequences of an action before making a decision at the time it may have seemed necessary enough to go ahead with it but don t assume that i feel the bombing was morally justified i don t i just don t condemn those who had to make a difficult decision under difficult circumstances you having criticised moral relativism in the past are now arguing that i am in no position to judge the morality of allied actions at the end of the war you certainly are not in such a position if you are a moral relativist i as an absolutist am in a position to judge but i defer judgment you are arguing that the actions need to be assessed in the particular context of the time and that they might have been moral then but not moral now wrong they were neither moral then nor now they seemed necessary to those making the decisions to bring a quick end to the war i simply refuse to condemn them for their decision where s your christian love where s your absolute morality oh how quick you are to discard them when it suits you as ivan stang would say jesus would puke one day i will stand before jesus and give account of every word and action even this discourse in this forum i understand the full ramifications of that and i am prepared to do so i don t believe that you can make the same claim mathew and btw the reason i brought up the blanket bombing in germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties as being so deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn t accurate enough to hit industrial military targets in a decisive way by any other method at that time but in the gulf war precision bombing was the norm so the point was why make a big stink about the relatively few civilian casualties that resulted in spite of precision bombing when so many more civilians proportionately and quantitatively died under the blanket bombing in ww even with precision bombing mistakes happen and some civilians suffer but less civilians suffered in this war than any other iany other in history many iraqi civilians went about their lives with minimal interference from the allied air raids the stories of hundreds of thousands of iraqi civilian dead is just plain bunk yes bunk the us lost servicemen in ww over four years and the majority of them were directly involved in fighting but we are expected to swallow that hundreds of thousands of civilian iraqis died in a war lasting about months and with the allies using the most precise bombs ever created at that what hogwash if hundreds of thousands of iraqi civilians died it was due to actions hussein took on his own people not due to the allied bombing regards jim b
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics maddi hausmann chirps timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes first of all you seem to be a reasonable guy why not try to be more honest and include my sentence afterwards that honest it just ended like that i swear that s nice hmmmm i recognize the warning signs alternating polite and rude coming into newsgroup with huge chip on shoulder calls people names and then makes nice whirrr click whirrr you forgot the third equality whirrr click whirrr see below whirr click whirr frank o dwyer might also be contained in that shell pop stack to determine whirr click whirr killfile keith allen schneider frank closet theist o dwyer maddi the mad sound o geek hausmann whirrr click whirrr bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes the positive aspect of this verse noted by dr maurice bucaille is that while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time and for a long time afterwards there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse or anywhere in the qur an there is no notion of heliocentric or even galacticentric either my sole intention was learning to fly
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and anarchists mccullou whipple cs wisc edu writes my turn i went back and reread your post all you did is attack atheism and say that agnosticism wasn t as funny as atheism nowhere does that imply that you are agnostic or weak atheist as most people who post such inflammatory remarks are theists it was a reasonable assumption sorry you re right i did not clearly state it rule condescending to the population at large i e theists will not win many people to your faith anytime soon it only ruins your credibility how am i being condescending to the population at large i am stating something that happened to be true for a long time i couldn t believe that people actually believed in this god idea it was an alien concept to me i am not trying to win people to my faith as you put it i have no faith religion was a non issue when i had the attitude above because it never even occurred to me to believe atheist by default i guess you could say the most common form of condescending is the rational versus irrational attitude once one has accepted the assumption that there is no god s and then consider other faiths to be irrational simply because their assumption s contradict your assumption then i would say there s a lack of consistency here now i know you ll get on me about faith if the positive belief that god does not exist were a closed logical argument why do so many rational people have problems with that logic but you probably like me seem to be a soft atheist sorry for the flamage the line about atheists haveing something up their sleeves is what seemed to imply that sorry been reading too much on the clipper project lately and the paranoia over there may have seeped in some what is the clipper project btw rule don t mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination by the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic to his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions of his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone be worse than that many rulers have done similar things in the past only stalin did it when there was plenty of documentation to afix the blame on him the evidence is that some of the early european rulers ruled with an iron fist much like stalin s you threw in numbers and i am sick of hearing about stalin as an example because the example doesn t apply you managed to get me angry with your post because it appeared to attack all forms of atheism it might have appeared to attack atheism in general but its point was that mass killing happens for all sorts of reasons people will hate who they will and will wave whatever flag to justify it be it cross or hammer sickle the stalin example is important not only because it s still a widely unappreciated era that people want to forget but also because people really did love him and his ideas even after all that he had wrought the evidence i am referring to is more a lack of evidence than negative evidence say i claim there are no pink crows i have never seen a pink crow but that doesn t mean it couldn t exist but this person here claims that there are pink crows even though he admits he hasn t been able to capture one or get a photo or find one with me etc in a sense that is evidence to not believe in the existence of pink crows that is what i am saying when i look at the evidence i look at the suppossed evidence for a deity show how it is flawed and doesn t show what theists want it to show and go on first all the pink crows unicorns elves arguments in the world will not sway most people for they simply do not accept the analogy why one of the big reasons is that many many people want something beyond this life you can pretend that they don t want this but i for one can accept it and even want it myself sometimes and there is nothing unique in this example of why people want a god can love as a truth be proven logically themselves namely a god or gods so in principle it s hard to see how theists are necessarily arrogant makes no sense to me they seem arrogant to make such a claim to me but my previous refutation still stands and i believe there may be another one on the net john the baptist boasted of jesus to many people i find it hard to see how that behavior is arrogant at all many christians i know also boast in this way but i still do not necessarily see it as arrogance of course i do know arrogant christians doctors and teachers as well technically you might consider the person who originally made a given claim to be arrogant jesus for instance are you talking about all atheism or just strong atheism if you are talking about weak atheism which i believe in then i refuse such a claim atheism is a lack of belief i used good ol occam s razor to make the final rejection of a deity in that as i see things even if i present the hypothesises in an equal fasion i find the theist argument not plausible i speak against strong atheism i also often find that the evidence supporting a faith is very subjective just as say the evidence supporting love as truth is subjective i believe i answered that i apologize for the as you stated incorrect assumption on your theism but i saw nothing to indicate that you were an agnostic only that you were just another newbie christian on the net trying to get some cheap shots in no apology necessary bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	re so help you god in court in article tan psuvm psu edu andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes in article apr daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough says in article monack helium monack helium gas uug arizona edu david n monack writes another issue is that by having to request to not be required to recite the so help me god part of the oath a theistic jury may be prejudiced against your testimony even though atheism is probably not at all relevant to the case what is the recommended procedure for requesting an alternate oath or affirmation dave sorry for using a follow up to respond but my server dropped about a weeks worth of news when it couldn t keep up when the you are asked to swear so help you god and you have to say it ask which one jesus allah vishnu zues odin get them to be specific don t be obnoxious just humbly ask then quitely sit back and watch the fun james l felder sverdrup technology inc phone nasa lewis research center cleveland ohio email jfelder lerc nasa gov some people drink from the fountain of knowledge other people gargle
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes deletia wrt pathetic jee zus posting by bissel i hope you re not going to flame him please give him the same coutesy you ve given me no he hasn t extended to us the courtesy you ve shown us so he don t get no pie tammy i respect your beliefs because you don t try to stamp them into my being i have scorn for posters whose sole purpose appears to be to evangelize tammy
alt.atheism	re who says the apostles were tortured the traditions of the church hold that all the apostles meaning the surviving disciples matthias barnabas and paul were martyred except for john tradition should be understood to read early church writings other than the bible and heteroorthodox scriptures c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it makes sense to be one have any of you read tony campollo s book liar lunatic or the real thing i might be a little off on the title but he writes the book anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity in the process he became a christian himself sounds like you are saying he was a part of some conspiracy just what organization did he belong to does it have a name the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was logic alert artificial trifercation the are many other possible explainations could have been that he never existed there have been some good points made in this group that is not impossible that jc is an amalgam of a number of different myths mithra comes to mind some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed call me a fool but i believe he did heal people logic alert argument from incredulity just because it is hard for you to believe this doesn t mean that it isn t true liars can be very pursuasive just look at koresh that you yourself site he has followers that don t think he is a fake and they have shown that they are willing to die by not giving up after getting shot himself koresh has shown that he too is will to die for what he believes as far as healing goes if i rememer right the healing that was attributed is not consistent between the different gospels in one of them the healing that is done is not any more that faith healers can pull off today seems to me that the early gospels weren t that compeling so the stories got bigger to appeal better niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool logical people see this right away therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing or might not have existed or any number of things that is the logical pitfall that those who use flawed logic like this fall into there are bifurcations or tri quad etc that are valid because in the proceeding steps the person shows conclusively that the alternatives are all that are possible once everyone agrees that the given set is indeed all there are then arguments among the alternatives can be presentent and one mostly likely to be true can be deduced by excluding all other possible alternatives however if it can be shown that the set is not all inclusive then any conclusions bases on the incomplete set are invalid even if the true choice is one of the original choices i have given at least one valid alternative so the conclusion that jc is the real mccoy just because he isn t one of the other two alternative is no longer valid some other things to note he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms isaiah and elsewhere in hrs alone this in his betrayal and crucifixion i don t have my bible with me at this moment next time i write i will use it jc was a rabbi he knew what those prophecies were it wouldn t be any great shakes to make sure one does a list of actions that would fullfill prophecy what would be compeling is if there were a set of clear and explicit prophecies and jc had absolutely no knowledge of then yet fullfilled them anyway i don t think most people understand what a christian is it is certainly not what i see a lot in churches rather i think it should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for god s sake he loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the same hey we can t do it god himself inspires us to turn our lives over to him that s tuff and most people don t want to do it to be a real christian would be something for the strong to persevere at but just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes time we don t rush it in one day christianity is your whole life it is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in a while we box everything into time units such as work at this time sports tv social life god is above these boxes and should be carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for ourselves here i agree with you anyone who buys into this load of mythology should take what it says seriously and what it says is that it must be a total way of life i have very little respect for xians that don t if the myth is true then it is true in its entirity the picking and choosing that i see a lot of leaves a bad taste in my mouth jim james l felder sverdrup technology inc phone nasa lewis research center cleveland ohio email jfelder lerc nasa gov some people drink from the fountain of knowledge other people gargle
alt.atheism	re some thoughts on fri apr gmt healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy said trh i hope you re not going to flame him please give him the same coutesy you trh ve given me but you have been courteous and therefore received courtesy in return this person instead has posted one of the worst arguments i have ever seen made from the pro christian people i ve known several jesuits who would laugh in his face if he presented such an argument to them let s ignore the fact that it s not a true trilemma for the moment nice word maddi original or is it a real word and concentrate on the liar lunatic part the argument claims that no one would follow a liar let alone thousands of people look at l ron hubbard now he was probably not all there but i think he was mostly a liar and a con artist but look at how many thousands of people follow dianetics and scientology i think the baker s and swaggert along with several other televangelists lie all the time but look at the number of follower they have as for lunatics the best example is hitler he was obviously insane his advisors certainly thought so yet he had a whole country entralled and came close to ruling all of europe how many germans gave their lives for him to this day he has his followers i m just amazed that people still try to use this argument it s just so obviously wrong ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians on apr gmt bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine said rb in article ofnwyg wb voa andrew cmu edu pl u andrew cmu edu patrick c leger writes ever hear of baptism at birth if that isn t preying on the young i don t know what is rb rb no that s praying on the young preying on the young comes rb later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the rb priest really wears under that chasible the same thing scotsmen where under there kilt i ll never forget the day when i was about tweleve and accidently walked in on a roomfull of priests sitting around in their underware drinking beer and watching football kind of changed my opinion a bit they didn t seem so menacing after that ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re victims of various good fight s on apr f levels unisa edu au the desert brat said tdb disease introduced to brazilian oher s am tribes x million to be fair this was going to happen eventually given time the americans would have reached europe on their own and the same thing would have happened it was just a matter of who got together first ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article apr abo fi mandtbacka finabo abo fi mats andtbacka writes and these objective values are please be specific and more importantly motivate i ll take a wild guess and say freedom is objectively valuable yes but whose freedom the world in general doesn t seem to value the freedom of tibetans for example mathew
alt.atheism	re koresh is god the latest news seems to be that koresh will give himself up once he s finished writing a sequel to the bible mathew
alt.atheism	re where are they now a in article qi innf n senator bedfellow mit edu tcbruno athena mit edu tom bruno writes stuff deleted which brings me to the point of my posting how many people out there have been around alt atheism since i ve done my damnedest to stay on top of more stuff deleted hmm usenet got it s collective hooks into me around or so right after i switched to engineering i d say i started reading alt atheism around i ve probably not posted more than messages in the time since then though i ll never understand how people can find the time to write so much i can barely keep up as it is ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is reply to frank d s uucp frank o dwyer i m one of those people who does not know what the word objective means when put next to the word morality i assume its an idiom and cannot be defined by its separate terms give it a try objective morality is morality built from objective values from a dictionary of philosophy by anthony flew objectivism the belief that there are certain moral truths that would remain true whatever anyone or everyone thought or desired for instance no one should ever deliberately inflict pain on another simply to take pleasure in his suffering might be thought of as a plausible example even in a world of sadists who all rejected it the contention remains true just as remains correct even if there is no one left to count the problem for the objectivist is to determine the status of moral truths and the method by which they can be established if we accept that such judgements are not reports of what is but only relate to what ought to be see naturalistic fallacy then they cannot be proved by any facts about the nature of the world nor can they be analytic since this would involve lack of action guiding content one ought always to do the right thing is plainly true in virtue of the vords involved but it is unhelpful as a practical guide to action see analytic and synthetic at this point the objectivist may talk of self evident truths but can he deny the subjectivist s claim that self evidence is in the mind of the beholder if not what is left of the claim that some moral judgements are true the subjectivist may well feel that all that remains is that there are some moral judgements with which he would wish to associate himself to hold a moral opinion is he suggests not to know something to be true but to have preferences regarding human activity david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article apr st andrews ac uk nrp st andrews ac uk norman r paterson writes i don t think you re right about germany my daughter was born there and i don t think she has any german rights eg to vote or live there beyond the rights of all ec citizens she is a british citizen by virtue of her parentage but that s not full citizenship for example i don t think her children could be british by virtue of her in the same way i am fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship by making an application for it it might require immigration to germany but i am almost certain that once applied for citizenship is inevitable in this case more interesting is your sentence in fact many people try to come to the us to have their children born here so that they will have some human rights how does the us compare to an islamic country in this respect do people go to iran so their children will have some human rights would you more interesting only for your propaganda purposes i have said several times now that i don t consider iran particularly exemplary as a good islamic state we might talk about the rights of people in capitalist secular third world countries to give other examples of the lack of rights in third world countries broadly say for example central american secular capitalist countries whose govt s the us supports but who amnesty international has pointed out are human rights vacua gregg
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes in article c jxru t news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes what do you base your belief on atheism on your knowledge and reasoning couldn t that be wrong actually my atheism is based on ignorance ignorance of the existence of any god don t fall into the atheists don t believe because of their pride mistake how do you know it s based on ignorance couldn t that be wrong why would it be wrong to fall into the trap that you mentioned also if i may what the heck where we talking about and why didn t i keep some comments on there to see what the line of thoughts were mac bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	re koresh is god on fri apr mathew mathew mantis co uk said m the latest news seems to be that koresh will give himself up once he s m finished writing a sequel to the bible also it s the th now can the feds get him on tax evasion i don t remember hearing about him running to the post office last night ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re the pope is jewish west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the pope is jewish i always thought that the pope was a bear you know because of that little saying does a bear shit in the woods is the pope catholic there must be some connection between those two lines
alt.atheism	re bible quiz in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article qgbmt c f usenet ins cwru edu cr cleveland freenet edu frank d kirschner writes only when the sun starts to orbit the earth will i accept the bible since when does atheism mean trashing other religions there must be a god of inbreeding to which you are his only son pope john paul
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women benedikt rosenau i dbstu rz tu bs de wrote when the object of their belief is said to be perfect and make the believers act in a certain way and we observe that they don t we have a contradiction something defined contradictorily cannot exist that what the believe in does not exist secondly there are better explanations for why they believe than the existence of the object of their belief have you read the faq already benedikt benedikt i can t recall anyone claiming that god makes anyone act a particlar way i think that you re attempting to manufacture a contradiction god is said to require certain behavior but the only compulsion is the believer s sense of duty a standard of conduct does exist but we are free to ignore it or misunderstand it or distort it in whatever ways we find convenient but our response to god s edicts can in no way be used to question god s existence the behavior of believers is a completely separate question from that of god s existence there is nothing contradictory here to say that something defined contadictorily cannot exist is really asking too much you would have existence depend on grammar all you can really say is that something is poorly defined but that in itself is insufficient to decide anything other than confusion of course your point that there are better reasons for the phenomenon of belief than the object of belief may lead to a rat s nest of unnecessary complexity i think i know what you re implying but i d like to see your version of this better alternative just the same bill
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women scott d sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu wrote regardless of people s hidden motivations the stated reasons for many wars include religion of course you can always claim that the real reason was economics politics ethnic strife or whatever but the fact remains that the justification for many wars has been to conquer the heathens if you want to say for instance that economics was the chief cause of the crusades you could certainly make that point but someone could come along and demonstrate that it was really something else in the same manner you show that it was really not religion you could in this manner eliminate all possible causes for the crusades scott i don t have to make outrageous claims about religion s affecting and effecting history for the purpsoe of a a all i have to do point out that many claims made here are wrong and do nothing to validate atheism at no time have i made any statement that religion was the sole cause of anything what i have done is point out that those who do make that kind of claim are mistaken usually deliberately to credit religion with the awesome power to dominate history is to misunderstand human nature the function of religion and of course history i believe that those who distort history in this way know exaclty what they re doing and do it only for affect bill
alt.atheism	re some thoughts james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote logic alert argument from incredulity just because it is hard for you to believe this doesn t mean that it isn t true liars can be very pursuasive just look at koresh that you yourself cite this is whole basis of a great many here rejecting the christian account of things in the words of st madalyn murrey o hair face it folks it s just silly why is it okay to disbelieve because of your incredulity if you admit that it s a fallacy bill
alt.atheism	re some thoughts kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote someone spank me if i m wrong but didn t lord liar or lunatic originate with c s lewis who s this campollo fellow anyway i do think so and isn t there a clear connection with the i do believe because it is absurd notion by one of the original christians origen there is a similar statement attributed to anselm i believe so that i may understand in both cases reason is somewhat less exalted than anyone posting here could accept which means that neither statement can be properly analysed in this venue bill
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians ed mccreary edm twisto compaq com wrote on apr gmt bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine said rb in article ofnwyg wb voa andrew cmu edu pl u andrew cmu edu patrick c leger writes ever hear of baptism at birth if that isn t preying on the young i don t know what is rb rb no that s praying on the young preying on the young comes rb later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the rb priest really wears under that chasible does this statement further the atheist cause in some way surely it s not intended as wit bill
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote this is a good point but i think average people do not take up christianity so much out of fear or escapism but quite simply as a way to improve their social life or to get more involved with american culture if they are kids of immigrants for example since it is the overwhelming major religion in the western world in some form or other it is simply the choice people take if they are bored and want to do something new with their lives but not somethong too new or too out of the ordinary seems a little weak but as long as it doesn t hurt anybody the social pressure is indeed a very important factor for the majority of passive christians in our world today in the case of early christianity the promise of a heavenly afterlife independent of your social status was also a very promising gift reason slaves and non romans accepted the religion very rapidly if this is a hypothetical proposition you should say so if it s fact you should cite your sources if all this is the amateur sociologist sub branch of a a however it would suffice to alert the unwary that you are just screwing around bill
alt.atheism	re nicknames maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com wrote jcopelan nyx cs du edu the one and only writes we could start with those posters who annoy us the most like bobby or bill your wish is my command bill shit stirrer connor bobby circular mozumder i m not sure my new nom d net is exactly appropriate but it comes very close considering what i have to wade through before i make one of my insightful dead on the money repsonses i have to agree that something s getting stirred up i would like to believe my characterization of what i respond to would be kinder though but if you insist i am also surprised to find that i have offended anyone but in some cases it s unavoidable if i am to say anything at all for those to whom fairness is important check out my contributions haven t i been most generous and patient a veritable paragon of gentility oh btw i don t mind being paired with bobby i admire his tenacity how many of you would do as well in this hostile environment you think i m offensive read your own posts love and kisses bill p s my name is conner not connor no point in humiliating the innocents
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women keith m ryan kmr po cwru edu wrote nice cop out bill i m sure you re right but i have no idea to what you refer would you mind explaining how i copped out bill
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists this is fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality as a means of population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according to benedikt if something is contardictory it cannot exist which in this case means atheists i suppose i would like to understand how an atheist can object to war an excellent means of controlling population growth or to capital punishment i m sorry but the logic escapes me and why just capital punishment what is being questioned here the propriety of killing or of punishment what is the basis of the ecomplaint bill
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution robert singleton bobs thnext mit edu wrote sure it isn t mutually exclusive but it lends weight to i e increases notional running estimates of the posterior probability of the atheist s pitch in the partition and thus necessarily reduces the same quantity in the theist s pitch this is because the divine component falls prey to ockham s razor the phenomenon being satisfactorily explained without it and there being no independent evidence of any such component more detail in the next post occam s razor is not a law of nature it is way of analyzing an argument even so it interesting how often it s cited here and to what end it seems odd that religion is simultaneously condemned as being primitive simple minded and unscientific anti intellectual and childish and yet again condemned as being too complex occam s razor the scientific explanation of things being much more straightforeward and apparently simpler which is it to be which is the non essential and how do you know considering that even scientists don t fully comprehend science due to its complexity and diversity maybe william of occam has performed a lobotomy kept the frontal lobe and thrown everything else away this is all very confusing i m sure one of you will straighten me out tough bill
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes ok you have disproved one thing but you failed to nail me see nowhere in my post did i claim that something must be believed in here are the three possibilities god exists god does not exist i don t know my attack was on strong atheism since i am i guess by what you said below that makes me a weak atheist snip first of all you seem to be a reasonable guy why not try to be more honest and include my sentence afterwards that honest it just ended like that i swear hmmmm i recognize the warning signs alternating polite and rude coming into newsgroup with huge chip on shoulder calls people names and then makes nice whirrr click whirrr clam bake timmons bill shit stirrer connor q e d whirr click whirr frank o dwyer might also be contained in that shell pop stack to determine whirr click whirr killfile keith allen schneider frank closet theist o dwyer the mind reels maybe they re all bobby mozumder maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don t try this at home remember i post professionally
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political athei in article apr abo fi mandtbacka finabo abo fi mats andtbacka writes in o rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew writes i wonder if noam chomsky is reading this i could be wrong but is he actually talking about outright government control of the media aka censorship if he doesn t any quick one stop shopping reference to his works that ll tell me in short what he does argue for manufacturing consent a film about the media you alternative movie source may have this or to book it in your local alternative theatre contact films transit international sales jan rofekamp notre dame e montreal quebec canada h y c tel fax telex filmtransmtl us readers call zeitgeist films at s shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim cs arizona edu take this cross and garlic here s a mezuzah if he s jewish a page of the koran if he s a muslim and if he s a zen buddhist you re on your own member of the league for programming freedom write to lpf uunet uu net
alt.atheism	re requests in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes from bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine subject re requests date apr gmt in article c qllg bc mailer cc fsu edu mayne cs fsu edu writes excess stuff deleted however it seems that a local church elder has been getting revelations from god about a devastating quake scheduled to level the area on may rd he has independent corroboration from several friends who apparently have had similar revelations the quake was in fact in response to a request from the lot of them seeking a sign from god on the veracity of their visions none of this would be terribly interesting except for the amount of stir it has created in the area many many people are taking these claims very seriously there are some making plans to be out of the are on the target date my local religious radio station devoted hours of discussion on the topic i even called up during one of the live broadcasts to tell the host that he would have a full account of my conversion on may th provided my family and i survived the devastation and ruin that will invariably follow the quake bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea i know of a similar incident about years ago a climatologist ithink that was his profession named iben browning predicted that an earthquake would hit the new madrid fault on dec some schools in missouri that were on the fault line actually cancelled school for the day many people evacuated new madrid and other towns in teh are i wouldn t be suprised if there were more journalists in the area than residents of course teh earthquake never occured how do i know about his i used to live in southern illinois and the lican middle school was built directly on the fault line no we still had school we laughed at the poor idiots who believed the prediction bob if you re wanting an excuse to convert to christianity you gonna have to look elsewhere tammy no trim healy
alt.atheism	re studies on book of mormon in article snx enkidu mic cl agrino enkidu mic cl andres grino brandt writes from agrino enkidu mic cl andres grino brandt subject studies on book of mormon date sun apr cst hi i don t know much about mormons and i want to know about serious independent studies about the book of mormon i don t buy the official story about the gold original taken to heaven but haven t read the book of mormon by myself i have to much work learning biblical hebrew i will appreciate any comment about the results of study in style vocabulary place names internal consistency and so on for example there is evidence for one writer or multiple writers there are some mention about events places or historical persons later discovered by archeologist yours in collen andres grino brandt casilla santiago agrino enkidu mic cl chile no hay mas realidad que la realidad y la razon es su profeta i don t think the book of mormon was supposedly translated from biblical hebrew i ve read that prophet joseph smith traslated the gold tablets from some sort of egyptian ish language former mormons please post tammy no trim healy
alt.atheism	re societal basis for morality in article c prv ni news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb wrote we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn t i murder your brother and say that i was exercising my rights as i saw them was doing what felt good didn t want anyone forcing their morality on me or i don t follow your morality good statement should we apply empirical measurements to define exact social morals should morals be based on social rules on ancient religious doctrines it seems there will never be a common and single denominator for defining morals and as such defining absolute and objective morals is doomed to fail as long as humans have this incredible talent of creative thinking cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice wrote fred the problem with such reasoning is that for us non believers we need a better measurement tool to state that person a is a real muslim christian while person b is not as i know there are no such tools and anyone could believe in a religion misuse its power and otherwise make bad pr it clearly shows the sore points with religion in other words show me a movement that can t spin off khomeinis stalins davidians husseins i don t think such a system exists i think the reason for that is an condition known as free will we humans have got it anybody using their free will can tell lies and half truths about any system and thus abuse it for their own ends i don t think such tools exist either in addition there s no such thing as objective information all together it looks like religion and any doctrines could be freely misused to whatever purpose this all reminds me of descartes whispering deamon you can t trust anything so why bother cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c pxqs lm darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote as for your question of moral free agency given the christian position above the freedom we have is to acknowledge god the morality we practice is a direct outgrowth of how we excercise that freedom you are free to ignore god in the same way you are free to ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known in both cases that an atheist can t accept the evidence means only that he prefers not to accept it it says nothing about the evidence itself i agree i had a hard feeling not believing my grand grand mother who told me of elves dancing outside barns in the early mornings i preferred not to accept it even if her statement provided the truth itself life is hard cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article c qt p mvo blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee wrote in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes i think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how deviant the view as i ve articulated it above which may not be the true view of khomeini is from the basic principles of islam from the point ov view of an atheist i see you claim khomeini wasn t practicing true islam but i m sure that he would have said the same about you how am i a member of neither group supposed to be able to tell which one of you two is really a true muslim fred rice answered this already in an early posting the problem with your argument is that you do not know who is a real believer and who may be faking it this is something known only by the person him herself and god your assumption that anyone who claims to be a believer is a believer is not necessarily true in other words it seems that nobody could define who is a true and false muslim we are back to square one khomeini and hussein are still innocent and can t be defined as evil or good islamic worshippers cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice wrote the problem with your argument is that you do not know who is a real believer and who may be faking it this is something known only by the person him herself and god your assumption that anyone who claims to be a believer is a believer is not necessarily true so that still leaves the door totally open for khomeini hussein et rest they could still be considered true muslims and you can t judge them because this is something between god and the person you have to apply your rule as well with atheists agnostics you don t know their belief this is something between them and god so why the hoopla about khomeini not being a real muslim and the hoopla about atheists being not real human beings cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re suggestion for resources faq date mon apr gmt from bruce stephens bruce liverpool ac uk i think a good book summarizing and comparing religions would be good i confess i don t know of any indeed that s why i checked the faq to see if it had one but i m sure some alert reader does i think the list of books suffers far too much from being christian based i agree that most of the traffic is of this nature although a few islamic references might be good but i still think an overview would be nice one book i have which presents a fairly unbiased account of many religions is called man s religions by john b noss it was a textbook in a class i had on comparative religion or some such thing it has some decent bibliographies on each chapter as a jumping off point for further reading it doesn t compare religions directly but describes each one individually and notes a few similarities but nothing i have read in it could be even remotely described as preachy or christian based in fact christianity mercifully consumes only or so of its nearly pages the book is divided according to major regions of the world where the biggies began india east asia near east there is nothing about new world religions from the aztecs mayas incas etc just the stuff people kill each other over nowadays and a few of the older religions snuffed out along the way if you like the old stuff then a couple of books called the ancient near east by james b pritchard are pretty cool got the epic of gilgamesh code of hammurabi all the stuff from way back when men were gods and gods were men essential reading for anyone who wishes to make up their own religion and make it sound real good
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt from bake timmons timmbake mcl ucsb edu my my there are a few atheists with time on their hands ok first i apologize i didn t bother reading the faq first and so fired an imprecise flame that was inexcusable how about the nickname bake flamethrower timmons you weren t at the koresh compound around noon today by any chance were you remember koresh dried for your sins and pass that beef jerky umm umm
alt.atheism	re objective values v scientific accuracy was re after years can we say that christian morality is in article s rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk wrote lpzsml unicorn nott ac uk steve lang writes values can also refer to meaning for example in computer science the value of is true and is false not in lisp true all you need to define is one statement that defined one polarity and all the other states are considered the other polarity then again what is the meaning of nil false or true cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re it s all mary s fault dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller writes nice attempt chris verrry close you missed the conspiracy by step joseph knew who knocked her up he couldn t let it be known that somebody else got ol mary prego that wouldn t do well for his popularity in the local circles so what happened is that she was feeling guilty he was feeling embarrassed and they decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise been the downfall for both clever indeed come to think of it i have gained a new respect for the couple maybe joseph and mary should receive all of the praise being paid to jesus lucky for them that the baby didn t have any obvious deformities i could just see it now mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and joseph say that it was god that got her pregnant and then the baby turns out to be deformed or even worse stillborn they d have a lot of explaining to do dave buckminster fuller how is that one o keeper of the nicknames nanci if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was in article c l fv h r ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes how would a man of th century arabia have known what not to include in the holy qur an assuming he had authored it so now we re judging the qur an by what s not in it how many mutton headed arguments am i going to have to wade through today lots of other books have been written on this subject those books can speak far more eloquently than i one would hope bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bnr ca rashid writes p s i m not sure about this but i think the charge of shatim also applies to rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella of the fasad ruling please define the words shatim and fasad before you use them again john david munch jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu the heart can change be full of hate or love if people are allowed to base their lives through their hearts anything can happen a dangerous situation in my opinion bobby mozumder describing problems with atheism
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article apr cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk c wainwright writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes the authorities i am referring to is the authority of the world islamic community over itself my point was simply that islamic law does apply to muslims wherever they are despite the fact that islamic law may not be enforcable in non islamic countries muslims residing in the uk may decide to be tried or whatever by the islamic community but their rulings have no legal consequences in these isles it s not really their decision to be tried the rulings do have legal consequences but only in islamic law and not in uk law this should be obvious enforcing a judgment is distinct from the making of a judgment take for example the judgments of the world court this is an internationally recognized tribunal whose judgments often have no physical or economic effect but which are important despite the fact that their judgments cannot be enforced the person may be excommunicated or similar but if it decided to mete out violent laws such as the fatwa then it would be breaking uk laws itself and the persons doing such would be liable to prosecution of course have you read any of this thread before this post to ignore the country s laws in preference to religious laws which are not indigenous to the country in question is an absurd and arrogant notion of course it is a sort of anarchism anarchism is explicitly against islam thank you for your well reasoned response but it is beside the points i ve been making in this thread gregg
alt.atheism	re jewish settlers demolish a mosque in gaza in c iwxm g z news chalmers se d bertil dtek chalmers se bertil jonell writes in article kutluk ccl umist ac uk kutluk ccl umist ac uk kutluk ozguven writes atheists are not mentioned in the quran because from a quranic point of view and a minute s reasoning one can see that there is no such thing but there are people who say that they are atheists if they aren t atheists what are they when the quran uses the word din it means way of individual thinking behaving communal order and protocols based on a set of beliefs this is often interpreted as the much weaker term religion the atheists are not mentioned in the quran along with jews mushriqin christians etc because the latter are all din to have a din you need a set of beliefs assumptions etc to forma a social code for example the marxist have those such as history conflict etc that they do not put idols sometimes they did to represent those assuptions does not mean they are any different from the other mushriq or roughly polytheists there cannot be social atheism because when there is a community that community needs common ideas or standard beliefs to coordinate the society when they inscribe assumptions say nation or progress is the natural consequence of human activity or parlamentarian democracy is doubtlessly the best way of government however they individually insist they do not have gods from the quranic point of view they do therefore by definition atheism does not exist we are a atheist society in fact means we reject the din other than ours atheism can only exist when people reject all the idols gods dogmas suppositions of the society that they part and in that case that is a personal deviation of belief and quran tells about such deviations and disbelief but as i mentioned from a quranic point of looking at things there is no atheism in the macro level i think it took more than one minute kutluk
alt.atheism	nostalgia the recent rise of nostalgia in this group combined with the incredible level of utter bullshit has prompted me to comb through my archives and pull out some of the best of alt atheism for your reading pleasure i ll post a couple of these a day unless group concensus demands that i stop or i run out of good material i haven t been particularly careful in the past about saving attributions i think the following comes from john a johnson but someone correct me if i m wrong this is probably the longest of my entire collection so that the prophecy be fulfilled in considering the christian religion and judging it according to its claims it is important to look at its claims at fulfilling earlier jewish prophecy the scribe matthew is perhaps the most eager to draw out what he thinks are prophetic answers in the career of jesus of nazareth as you will see matthew s main strategy is to take various old testament passages often not even about the promised messiah and apply them to the circumstances in the new testament we must also bear in mind the question of the authenticity of the accounts since the gospels were written at least years after jesus was executed we do not know how much happened exactly as stated but for purposes of analysis we will take particular claims at face value immanuel we begin of course at the beginning mt mary will bear a son and you joseph will name him jesus which means g d is salvation for he will save his people from their sins all this happened to fulfil what the lord had spoken by a prophet isaiah in the days of ahaz c bce king of judah rezin of syria and pekah of israel made war on jerusalem capitol of judah but could not quite conquer it when the house of david i e ahaz and his court in judah were told of this its heart and the heart of its people shook and the lord g d said to isaiah go to meet with ahaz and the lord spoke to ahaz through prophet isaiah naturally saying ask a sign of g d your lord it can be as deep as sheol or as high as heaven but ahaz said i won t ask i will not put the lord to a test then isaiah said hear then o house of david is it not enough for you to weary men that you must weary my god too therefore the lord himself will give you a sign behold a young woman is with child and will bear a son and name him immanuel which means g d is with us he will eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse evil and choose good for before the child knows how to refuse evil and choose good the land of the two kings you dread will have been deserted matthew homes in on just the sentence that is in italics further he the hebrew word almah young woman as specifically virgin but this is not a prophecy about the messiah it is not a prophecy about an event to happen years later it is not a prophecy about a virgin bethulah mother in short it not about jesus matthew has made use of a verse out of context and tries to make it fit the specific case of mary it should be noted that if we want to read the prophecy in a general manner a very general one it can be made to fit mary mary virgin or not was indeed a young woman with child of course the fit is shady and has problems jesus while thought of by later christians to be g d walking among men was never called by the name immanuel if christianity wished to claim this prophecy for jesus it becomes at best a cut and paste prophecy a second class prophecy not too convincing egypt after jesus s birth in bethlehem matthew tells about a quick and elsewhere unmentioned excursion to egypt as if he wishes to liken jesus to moses this was done to escape an alleged infanticidal rampage of the king herod mt and remained there until the death of herod this was to fulfil what the lord had spoken out of egypt i have cal led my son what the lord really said was this hosea when israel was a child i loved him and out of egypt i called my son the more i called them my people the more they went from me they kept sacrificing to the ba als and kept burning incense to idols matthew conveniently omits the rest of hosea s oracle but it was indeed israel that once called out of egypt wanted to return this is history jesus is certainly not being spoken of here and if we are to draw some kind of parallel here we wind up with a jesus that flees and resists g d again this prophecy is just not as convincing as matthew probably had hoped rachel weeps while jesus is off vacationing in egypt matthew says that king herod sought to kill him and thus ordered the executions of all young male children matthew then writes mt by this that which was spoken by the prophet jeremiah was fulfilled a voice was heard in ramah wailing and loud lamentation rachel weeping for her children she refused to be consoled because they were no more the reference is to a passage in jeremiah referring to the carrying off of israel into exile by sargon of assyria in bce rachel the ancestor of the major tribes of israel ephraim and manasseh is said to weep for her descendants who are no more it is metaphorical of course since rachel lived and dies before the hebrews were even in the egyptian exile it is interesting to note that it was leah not rachel who was the ancestor of the judeans the land where jesus and bethlehem were if anyone should do weeping for her children it is leah the only connexion that rachel has with bethlehem is that the legends have it that she was buried north of the city on the way to ephrath bethlehem as for herod and his infanticide it is rather unlikely that such an event actually occurred one never knows but the event is not mentioned or alluded to anywhere else in the bible nor is it mentioned in any of the secular records of the time herod was particularly unliked in his reign and many far less evil deeds of herod were carefully recorded this might be a prime example of how events were added to jesus s life to enhance the message of the church s gospel because of the whole story s similarity to the tale of the infant moses in egypt it is highly likely that it is a device set up by matthew to add prophetic yet artificial approval of jesus it is not surprising that matthew conveniently neglects to mention the rest of the jeremiah quote the children the prophet speaks of are not dead but exiled in the assyrian empire g d comforts the weeping rachel saying that the children will be returned he will gather them back together of course this would not suit matthew s purpose as the children he speaks of are dead for good again the prophecy matthew sets up is not even that and to anyone who bothers to check it out is not too convincing the nazarene we do not even have to go to the next chapter to find another matthean prophecy after leaving egypt joseph wife take the infant jesus to live in the city of nazareth mt that what was spoken of by the prophets might be fulfilled he shall be called a nazarene first thing we notice is that matthew does not mention the name of the prophet s this time second we have to ask who he is there are no messianic prophecies speaking of a nazarene worse there are no prophecies period mentioning a nazarene still worse there are no nazarenes mentioned in the old testament at all in the book of judges an angel tells samson s mother that she will judges conceive and bear a son no razor shall tough his head for he will be a nazirite to his god from the day of his birth he will deliver israel from the hands of the philistines this is of course not a prophecy of jesus or the messiah of g d but it is the best that can be found obviously matthew has begun to go overboard in cut and paste prophecies in that he is simple making them up now bearing our diseases jesus next goes around healing people of physical illnesses and disabilities mt this was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet isaiah he took our infirmities and bore our diseases as expected the verse quoted in isaiah is quoted out of context and a few words are skewed to fit the christian scheme we have is surely he the suffering servant has borne our sickness and carried our pains from a reading of the surrounding passages in isaiah we know that the prophet is speaking in present tense of the collective nation of israel jehovah s chosen servant and people he speaks to the israelites suffering in exile in the voice of the gentile nations that look upon it this image is deeply ingrained in jewish identity an image of a chastised yet cherished israel as the instrument of the nations salvation by g d the verses speak of israel taking on the sicknesses which are the literal and metaphorical manifestations of guilt and discipline they do not speak of a servant going around and healing people notice that the servant in isaiah takes on the sicknesses and pains of the nations and individual jews jesus as we all know did not take the diseases onto himself the verses here in isaiah are not a prophecy of something to come but rather something that had already happened while it is believed that jesus took on the eternal punishment of hell he did not bear the illnesses he healed so while someone might want to say that figuratively jesus reenacted the deeds of israel in his spiritual atonement he has to admit that matthew s parallel misses where he intended it to have its effect silent messiah upon healing multitudes of commoners it is said that jesus ordered them to keep quiet presumable so that he wouldn t arouse the attention of the local rulers mt this was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet isaiah behold my servant whom i have chosen my beloved with whom my soul is pleased i will put my spirit on him and he will announce justice to the gentiles he will not wrangle or cry aloud nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets he will not break a bruised reed or quench a smoldering wick until he brings justice to victory and the gentiles will hope in his name the isaiah passage quoted reads is behold my servant whom i uphold my chosen in whom my soul delights i have put my spirit on him and he will bring forth justice to the nations we will not cry or lift up his voice or make it heard in the street he will not break a bruised reed or quench a smoldering wick he will faithfully bring forth justice he will not fail burn dimly or be discouraged bruised until he has established justice in the earth and the coastlands await his law you see matthew has conveniently left out part of the passage because it does not suit the dealings of jesus christians could never think of jesus failing never would the light of mankind burn dimly but the servant nation of israel will indeed come to an end when its job is done when the gentiles come to embrace g d there will no longer be a chosen people but rather all will be the children of g d also the ending phrase has been changed from the judaic the coastlands await his law to the christologic the gentiles will hope in his name while the original proclaims the torah law of jehovah the other rewrites it to fit its strange doctrine of believing in the name if one has any doubt the servant referred to is not jesus one has only to read the whole chapter isaiah and hear about the beloved but blind and imperfect servant a people robbed and plundered so we see that when matthew s attempt at prophecy is examined it crumbles three days and three nights now we come upon a prophecy supposedly uttered by the very mouth of the god jesus himself he speaks of his crucifixion and resurrection mt for as jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights so will the son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights before any further discussion can occur it is necessary to know how the jews understood days as far as day names went each was hours long lasting from sunset pm to the following sunset pm what was referred to as a day was the period of light from am to the ending sunset at pm thus according to our time scale a sabbath day began at pm friday evening and lasted until pm saturday evening this is why the jews celebrate their sabbath on the daylight portion of saturdays instead of sundays it seems like a real miracle that christians didn t forget that saturday was indeed the seventh and last day of the week thus when days and nights are referred to together hour daylight portions and hour night periods are being spoken of thus jesus says that he will be in the grave or in hell or otherwise unresurrected for three days and three nights as the good book tells us jesus was crucified on the ninth hour which is pm friday afternoon he then was put into the grave sometime after that then jesus left the grave rose before dawn of what we call sunday the dawn after the sabbath was over what this means is that jesus was using our time for clarity in the grave from pm friday night to some time before am sunday morning we could also add a little time before pm friday since the bible is not specific here what this means using jewish time is that he was in the grave for one day two nights and possibly a couple of hours of one day certainly this is a problem for jesus prediction there is absolutely no way we are even able to have his death involve three days and three nights even using modern time measurements we then are led to suspect that this error is another one of matthew s little mistakes and that the gospel writer put false words into his god s mouth and no matter who made the prediction it is more than unconvincing it is counter convincing hearing understanding jesus tool on a habit of speaking to his vast audiences in parables stories in which a deeper meaning could be found if you were already one of the elect those chosen to understand the message of jesus he reasons that those who can understand the parables are the ones he wants if the people cannot understand them there is no need to bother with them since they will not accept the plain message any better matthew says mt with them the audience indeed in fulfilled the prophecy of isaiah which says you will indeed hear but never understand and you will indeed see but never perceive because this people s heart has grown dull their ears are heavy of hearing and they have shut their eyes so the they would not perceive with them her with their ears and understand with their heart and turn for me to heal them the original isaiah passages are part of his earlier works his call to the ministry this is in bce when israel is flourishing right before it falls under the authority of assyria isaiah sees the good times ending and also a vision from g d calling him to bring reform to israel and judah is and g d said go and say to this people hear and hear but do not understand see and see but do not perceive make the heart of this people fat make their ears heavy and shut their eyes so they will not see with their eyes or hear with their ears and understand with their hearts and turn and be healed then isaiah said how long lord and he said until the cities lie waste without inhabitant and houses without men and the land is utterly desolate and the g ds take men far away and forsaken places are many in the land and though a tenth will remain in it it will be burned again like a terebinth or an oak whose stump still stands when the tree is felled the holy seed is its stump here we see that it is really g d who causes the people of israel to stop listening to the prophet s warnings but reaffirms the promise made to solomon s and david s seed lineage if you read the rest of isaiah you find that this is done to fulfil the plan of g d to use israel as a servant a light to the nations look at isaiah we see that matthew has cut and pasted just a little portion of isaiah s verse to suit his own gospel needs more than that he has altered the words to make it fit the people who didn t understand jesus s stories and as we see isaiah s verses are not prophecies but rather commands from g d to him in the present once again matthew s prophecy falls flat on its face matthew tries again to make jesus s parables look like they have the prophetic approval mt he said nothing to them without a parable this was to fulfil what was spoken of by the prophet i will open my mouth to them in parables i will utter that which has been hidden since the foundation of the world matthew really botches up here he attempts to quote not from a prophet but from the psalms ps i will open my mouth in parable i will utter dark sayings of old things that we all have heard and known things that our fathers have told us we will not hide them from their children but tell to the coming generation the glorious deeds of the lord as was pointed out the verses in the psalms do not really come from a prophet you might also want to know that earlier copies of matthew s gospel even inserted isaiah s name as this prophet apparently later scribes caught the error and tried to cover some of it up perhaps the most significant part of this is that once again matthew has altered the old testament scriptures as jesus has said earlier he speaks in parables so that some will not understand them the parables in the psalms are not to be hidden further they speak of things known that our fathers have told us jesus deals with things hidden since the foundation of the world indeed jesus dealt in a lot of secrecy and confusion this is in direct opposition to the parables in the psalms no wonder matthew had to rewrite them and still once again matthew s artificial prophecies fall flat on their face but christians rarely look at this matthew s prophecies aren t the only things about christianity that are beginning to look bad excuses of little faith in mt we see that the disciples are able to go around casting out demons except in one case not knowing what epilepsy was the people thought those with the disease were possesed with demons it is no wonder that the disciples were unable to dispossess the epileptic but jesus perhaps no more enlightened than they is reported to have rebuked them saying they didn t have enough faith this seems strange why was this demon special it seems that either a true believer has faith or he does not apparently enough faith will allow someone to move mountains of course you will find no one these days that can move real mountains no one parts seas the only miracles the charismatics can speak of are those rumoured to happen on trips to mexico or some faraway place major miracles are making some old woman s arthritis feel better on sunday morning t v and the gods including jesus are always shrouded in ancient lore and writings protected from the skeptics in their sacred pasts they are either dead sleeping or hiding in heaven with people rumouring about their imminent return and their great miracles of days long gone yet life goes on tales of mystics stories of miracles all in a distant time or a distant place gods used to reveal themselves to men in the old days jehovah too but now they are silent all the theologians give are various excuses as to why we don t get to see god anymore we re too lazy we re not zealous enough we re sinful it s just his plan we put too many of our own demands on g d s appearance if we had the right faith if we were willing to meet g d on his terms yet even the most pious of men have not seen g d you dear reader have not seen g d not literally you know that to be true i know that s presumptuous and bold but searching your heart you know what i mean all that we ve seen religions do is make people feel good and content about not seeing g d they say our little faith does not merit us to see g d sometimes they say see the love in these people you worship with see the lives of people change that is seeing g d thus people get lulled to sleep satisfied with turning g d into the everyday sights but that is not seeing g d as i am speaking of it is not seeing g d the way people used to see what we see in the world that is good is the compassion of human hearts the love given and taken by men and women the forgiveness practised by christian atheist alike beauty created by the mind of man these are the things that are done these are what we see but it is said this is so only because everybody has little faith jesus rides on an ass shortly after accepting the role of the jewish messiah king jesus requests a donkey be brought in for him to ride into jerusalem mt this took place to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet saying tell the daughter of zion behold your king is coming to you humble mounted on an ass and on a ass colt of course the passage quoted from zechariah reads a little differently lo your king comes to you he is triumphant and victorious humble and riding on an ass on an ass colt he will command peace to the nations there isn t all that much difference here except that zechariah only involves one animal an ass colt while matthew reads the poetic wording slightly differently thus he has jesus call for both a colt and an adult ass from matthew s version we get a comical picture of the divine christ sweating it to straddle two donkeys this could inevitably lead to a theological proctological dilemma we find that in the account written earlier by st mark only the colt was called for and brought to jesus this indeed fits the verses of zechariah properly and shows us that in matthew attempt to use prophetic verses he has bungled now excluding many respectable christians i have met i have noticed that while christ is thought to have ridden on asses the situation is often reversed nowadays then entering the jerusalem temple the priests were angered at people and youngsters calling jesus the messiah but jesus replied as we might expect matthew to have done mt haven t you read out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has brought perfect praise it is more likely that matthew made this response up since jesus was never one to point out such little prophetic things and since as we might expect the quote is in error which seems to fit matthew s track record quite well we might ask jesus or matthew haven t you read for the source reads psalms o yahweh our lord how majestic is your name in the whole world you whose glory is chanted above the heavens by babes and infants you have founded a bulwark against your foes to still the enemy and the avenger the passages hardly need comment there is no perfect praise spoken of in the psalm and what praise is there is given to g d not his messiah king and not jesus as mentioned it seems to be just one more case of matthew s pen making up convenient prophetic scripture yhvh said to my lord jesus is said to have asked from whom the promised jewish messiah king is to be descended the jews agree it is king david but then jesus counters by quoting psalms the lord said to my lord sit at my right hand until i put your enemies under your feet taken at face value jesus is denying the necessity of davidic descent one assumes he is in opposition to their answer of course the christian answer is that he agrees but is trying to make some hidden point to reveal some mystery about the divine nature of the messiah king it s tempting to believe this if one is a christian and not interested in matters of investigation but there are problems in jesus s time the psalm was thought to be about the messiah and it is easy to see why david might refer to the messiah as his superior we need only look at the scriptures about the messiah to see that he is expected to be a great king bringing the jews to times even better than those under david s rule of course the jews listening had no good answer and the passage could indeed refer to a divine messiah such as the christians worship the problem lies in the meaning of this psalm an error that apparently several jews of jesus s time had also made one must remember that there were various factions among the jews often as a result of different expectations of the messiah king jesus was apparently one of these adventists like his audience who thought the messiah s advent was imminent and who interpreted psalms among others as being messianic what is the problem then psalm literally reads yhvh s utterance to my lord sit at my right hand until i make your enemies your footstool yhvh sends forth your mighty scepter from zion rule in the midst of your foes your people will offer themselves freely on the day you lead your host on the holy mountains you are a priest of the order of melchizedek forever the word lord is often mistakenly capitalised by christian bibles to denote divinity in this lord but in the hebrew the word is adoni and no capitalisation exists adoni simply means lord a generic term as we would use it it is used often in the scriptures to refer to kings and to g d it is merely an address of respect there is nothing in the text itself to imply that the word refers either to divinity or to the messiah king that this is supposed to be written by david is not certain the title of the psalm translates to either a psalm of david or a psalm about david it seems fitting to assume it to be written by a court poet about david s covenant and endorsement from g d if the psalm had been written by david it is unlikely that he would be talking about the messiah the idea of a perfect king descended from david was not present in david s age we have extensive tales of david s doings and sayings none of which include any praises of a messiah many of the psalms show evidence of being written long after david was dead in times of the exile when g d had put his show of favour for david s kingdom on hold the description in the psalm fit david very well david was promised by g d a rise to power victory over his enemies successful judgement among the nations he conquered he achieved the priesthood common to melchizedek in being a righteous king enabled to bless the people it all fits we do not have to blame this problem on matthew alone though here there is not artificial prophecy alluded to though his use of the scripture is rather questionable still this event is common to the other gospels too so we let matthew off a little more easily this time it is interesting to note though how matthew dresses up the event the earlier gospel of mark tells the tale with jesus simply speaking to a crowd matthew has the pharisees who became the religious competition of an infant christianity be the target of jesus s question as we might expect matthew writes that the event ends up by embarrassing the pharisees such power is the pen moses jesus had it together all along we leave the gospel story of matthew momentarily to see a pseudo prophecy in john s gospel the gospel story of john deserves special treatment because it seems to be so far removed from the real events of jesus s career as told by even matthew but for the moment we will just look at one verse the early church leaders founded a religion on the jewish hopes of a messiah king and on an artificial extension of the original promises made by g d when constructing the history of abraham moses wrote of a promise of land and nationhood to the jewish people while this was accomplished eventually under the rule of king david the christians who came along later decided that they would claim the fulfillment of the promise but to do so they expanded on the promise preaching about a heavenly kingdom john j c speaking your father abraham rejoiced to see my day he say it and was glad it would be nice to tie in approval for jesus from abraham but abraham knew nothing of jesus or a messiah or anything christian i have tried and failed to find any event in the old testament which corresponds to john s little prophecy it is par for the course to see st john making up old testament backings just like his forerunner matthew many christians know that their faith has many of its foundations in such fraud and it is surprising they still cling to it the potter s field we are told that jesus was betrayed while in jerusalem by one of his followers judas iscariot matthew writes mt and throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple judas departed but the chief priests taking the silver said it isn t lawful for us to put it in the treasury since it is blood money so they bought a potter s field with it to bury strangers in then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet jeremiah and they took the thirty pieces of silver the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of israel and they gave them for the potter s field as the lord directed me this prophecy is an utterly gross bastardisation of old testament scripture first matthew has made a mistake regarding the name of the prophet it is zechariah who utters the verses which matthew makes use of zech and they weighed out my wages thirty shekels of silver then yhvh said to me cast them to the treasury the lordly price at which i was paid off by them so i took the thirty shekels of silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of yhvh first of all the verses of zechariah do not deal with a betrayer of the messiah or of g d the deal with a shepherd most likely a priest chosen to serve a function of presiding over the people shortly before g d would send judah and israel into conflict with one another the word treasury had been replaced by the king james scholars with to the potter precisely because this made matthew s quote fit better but this is a blatant error the correct translation of the hebrew is indeed treasury which also makes perfect sense in zechariah s context whereas potter s field is totally unrelated whether the mistranslation was intentional or not seems to be beyond speculation however given matthew s track record one finds it hard to resist the notion of intentional dishonesty of course matthew would have ample reason for altering the text the thirty pieces of silver match judas s situation and if as most christians seem to be the reader is willing to disregard the contextual incongruity matthew might have another prophecy to toss around however the correct translation of zechariah directly contradicts the situation with judas and the high priests the high priests would not put the money in the treasury the worthless shepherd of zechariah does exactly the opposite of course to the average thursday night bible student the prophecy as presented by matthew would be taken at new testament face value to those matthew s work is convincing enough wine vinegar casting lots then jesus is led away to be crucified mt they gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall but when he tasted it he would not drink it and when they had crucified him they divided his garments among them by casting lots that it might be fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet they parted my garments among them and upon my vesture did they cast lots first of all the vinegar offered to jesus is actually common sour wine of the type that roman soldiers drank regularly we find that right before jesus dies the soldiers themselves give him some to drink not polluted with gall jn jesus said i thirst a bowl of vinegar stood there so they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth when he had received the vinegar he said it is finished but matthew seems to be drawing on not a passage from the prophets but one from the psalms ps i looked for pity but there was none and for comforters but i found none they gave me poison for food lit they put gall in my meat and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink add to them punishment upon punishment may they have no acquittal from thee let them be blotted out of the book of the living of course the sour wine offered to jesus is done at his request of drink this does indeed seem to be a show of pity the psalm quoted is about david and his political and military enemies it is not about the messiah or jesus it is then not surprising that we run into further problem when we see that the jesus in the psalm asks g d for the damnation of the crucifiers whereas the jesus of the gospels says lk jesus said father forgive them the don t know what they do further matthew misses with his attempt to create prophecy by having gall a bitter substance put into jesus s drink not his meat as the psalm stipulates with the prophecy of the vinegar faulty we naturally ask what of the casting of lots this brings up the nd psalm which deserves discussion all by itself suffice it now to say that the fact that jesus s clothes were divided as told is no great thing it turns out that this happened often to any felon in those days as we will soon see it is perhaps the least erroneous passage of the psalm when applied to jesus it does indeed bring up the interesting question as to the quality of jesus s clothes for a man so removed from worldly possessions his ownership of clothes worthy of casting lots raises some suspicions the nd psalm this psalm is attributed to david as a lament of his condition under the attack of his enemies it becomes a song of praise to yhvh and of hope taken out of context parts of it seem to fit the plight of jesus at the crucifixion quite well we will examine the primary passages verse my god my god why have you forsaken me why are you so far from helping me far from the words of my groaning oh my god i cry by day but you don t answer and by night but find no rest jesus is said to have cried the first sentence while on the cross this suggests that the whole psalm is really about jesus rather than king david of course the rest of the first stanza does not fit as nicely to jesus or his execution jesus is not pictured as complaining about the whole ordeal he is supposed to be like the lamb led mute before its shearers indeed jesus doesn t do much groaning even when on the cross he certainly does not cry by both day and night on the cross but i am a worm and no man scorned by men all who see me mock at me they make faces and wag their heads he committed his cause to yhvh so let him deliver him for he delights in him this seems to fit jesus s execution pretty well with the exception of the holy messiah being called a worm many bulls encompass me they open their mouths widely at me like a ravening and roaring lion yea dogs are round about me a company of evildoers encir cle me they have pierced my hands and feet i can see all my bones they divide my garments among them and cast lost for my raiment but you yhvh be not far away deliver my soul from the sword my life from the power of the dog save me from the mouth of the lion and my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild bull it would seem quite convincing and i m sure the early christian fathers who wrote of this prophecy thought so too unfortunately this prophecy has a fatal flaw the words have pierced really do not exist in the psalm the correct hebrew translation is yea dogs are round about me a company of evildoers encircles me like the lion they are at my hands and feet in hebrew the phrase like the lion and a very rare verb form which can mean pierced differ by one phonetic character the word in the hebrew text is literally like the lion ka ari which makes sense in the context and even further fits the animal imagery employed by the psalm writer it is convenience that would urge a christian to change the word to ka aru but to add the needed yet artificial weight to the prophecy this is just what the christian translators have chosen to do while the correct translation does not eliminate the psalm from referring to jesus its absence does not say much for the honesty of the translators apart from the erroneous verse the psalm does not lend itself to jesus so easily verse speaks of the sufferer being saved from a sword rather than a cross this naturally fits the psalm s true subject king david as a side note we now know that crucifixions did not pierce the hands the palms but rather the forearms this doesn t say much in favour of the traditional thought of a resurrected jesus showing his disciples the scars on his palms but then facts aren t bound by our religious beliefs matthew escapes culpability this time as he does not attempt to draw many direct links between this psalm and his lord jesus but the psalm like many others was on the minds of all the gospel writers when they compiled the stories and interpretations of jesus s life and death how much these scriptures may have contributed to what actually got written down is a question that has serious repercussions for christian theology it is easy to see for those who are not faithful fundamentalists how some of the events in the new testament might have been enhanced by scribes such as the eager matthew but it does less to speculate than to simply investigate scriptural matters and prophetic claims so far this has not said good things for st matthew the reference to the piercing looks a lot like jesus s crucifixion john s gospel recount written about years after the fact tells us at jesus s execution jn but one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear and out came blood and water these things took place that scripture be fulfilled the will look on him whom they ve pierced of course this is built on a passage taken blatantly out of context prophet zechariah tells us how much of the nation of israel will split off from jerusalem and judah and go to war with them zc and yhvh will give victory to judah and on that day i will seek to destroy the nations that come against jerusalem in judah and i will pour a spirit of compassion and supplication on jerusalem so that when they look on him who they have pierced they will mourn and weep bitterly over him like you weep over a firstborn child john s attempt to make up prophecy is perhaps weaker that matthew s attempts matthew at least usually excontexts more than just one passage john s errors are grossly obvious and blatant here it does not speak well for any of the gospel writers as it helps to show how the prophetic aspects of their religion were founded reckoned with transgressors after his arrest jesus is quickly executed for claiming the jewish kingship messiahship according to one version of the gospel tale jesus gets executed along with two thieves mk and with him they crucified two robbers one on his right one on his left and so the scripture was fulfilled which says he was reckoned with the transgressors here mark is trying to link jesus to a passage in isaiah about the servant nation of israel the passage is not about the messiah for if one reads the whole chapter of isaiah and its surrounding chapters one sees that the servant is a nation the verses are also about what this servant has gone through in the past not a prediction of what is to come in any event the servant is thought of as a criminal this also happens to fit the description of jesus had the passage really been about the messiah it still is not at all clear why executing jesus between two thieves would fulfill the prophecy in isaiah jesus would more fittingly fulfill it with his whole ministry he was considered a blasphemer and troublemaker all throughout his career locking onto a single event is a rather poor way to steal prophecy at least in this case as we see that mark could have had made a better analogy with general comparisons mark goes on to tell us how those who were crucified with jesus also reviled him this is to be expected from a couple of robbers of course in his later recount st luke decides to change some things luke tells us lk and one of the criminals who was hanged with him railed aren t you the messiah save yourself and us this certainly fits with mark s recount which tells how the people who crucified jesus said save yourself and that the robbers did the same but then luke goes on but the other criminal rebuked the first saying don t you fear g d since you are under the same sentence of condemnation and we indeed justly so for we are receiving the due reward for our deeds but this man has done nothing wrong and he said jesus remember me when you come in your kingdom and jesus answered verily i say to you today you will be with me in paradise now this little dialogue seems highly contrived it stretches the imagination a bit to see this picture of one ruffian rebuking his fellow criminal with such eloquent speech we have a rather strange picture of a criminal lamenting over the goodness of his punishment and the justness of his suffering such a man apparently noble and of principle doesn t seem likely to have been a robber we wonder at the amount of theatrics created by luke of course luke s recount also disagrees with mark s luke has only one criminal revile jesus not both it is easy enough to discount the discrepancy because the account was made up but those who wish to believe it is all part of the error free words of g d do not have this avenue open this is yet another example of a writer trying to take an old testament passage and expand it and reinterpret it to suit his theology in this case the embroidery creates some embarrassing problems as we have seen the end of the world mt now comes perhaps one of the most extraordinary and embarrassing passages in the new testament it is found in all three of the synoptic gospel stories and casts some of the most unfavourable doubt on the whole theory of christianity jesus mentions the destruction of the jewish temples and buildings and his disciples ask him about this and about the end of the world which he has been warning about the disciples tell us when will this the temple s destruction be and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age jesus take care that no one leads you astray for many will come in my name saying i am the christ you will hear of wars and rumours of wars for this must take place but the end is not yet for nation will rise against nation all this is but the beginning of the birthpangs they will deliver you up put you to death and false prophets will arise and lead many astray but he who endures to the end will be saved this gospel will be preached throughout the whole world a testimony to the nations and then the end will come so when you see the desolation spoken of by the prophet daniel let those who are in judea flee to the mountains immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened the stars will fall from heaven then will appear the sign of the son of man in heaven and all the tribes of the earth will mourn and see the son of man coming and he will send out his angels and gather his elect learn the lesson of the fig tree as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth leaves you know that summer is near so also when you see all these things you will know that he is near at the very gate truly i say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place but of the day and hour no one knows not the angels not the son but only the father therefore you also must be ready for the son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect from this it is clear that jesus thought the world would in within the lifetimes of at least some of his disciples he tells them that although he doesn t know the exact day or hour that it will come and thus they must be ready theologians have wet their pants in panic to find some way out of this holy error but unfortunately jesus made himself to explicit he told his disciples that their generation would still be around at the end and that they in particular should prepare for it prepare to be swept away there have been some who resorted to removing the inerrant nature of the bible and said that the phrase this generation shall not pass away really means this race of people will not pass away of course the word for generation is used many times to refer to exactly that the generation of the disciples it is an interesting notion that when god decided to learn greek he didn t learn it well enough to make himself clear but it is quite obvious from the rest of the dialogue that the disciples at least some of them are supposed to live to the end of the world the charge of mistranslation is completely blown away by looking at the apostles responses it becomes abundantly clear from rev peter john and rev that jesus meant exactly what he said the end was very near for years christians have rationalised this th chapter of matthew or ignored its meaning altogether for years they have waited for their executed leader to come back hearing of wars and rumours of wars sure that he is coming soon surely he must be all we must do is wait can you imagine how tired he must be sitting around up there being holy waiting for just the right moment to spring so shortly after his crucifixion jesus of nazareth joshua ben joseph died it is said that after three days or three days and three nights or three periods of time or three eternal seconds or three of whatever they can decide makes for less trouble he was seen again resurrected glowing with divine radiance then the saviour decided it wasn t in the best interests of his new religion to stick around and therefore disappeared from sight into heaven so the story goes anyway as has been seen there were many things attributed to jesus when people got around to writing the gospel stories down to them jesus was the fulfiller of all prophecy and scripture we have seen though that this matter is quite shaky but throughout church history christians have held fast to faith in simple belief what doctrinal objections could not be solved with argumentation or brute force faith and forgetfulness kept away from question to question and investigate has never been the easiest way to treat matters thus for years the prophecies cited in the new testament have gone on largely accepted things may well continue that way for some time pausing a moment to consider the way the doctrines of christianity have been accepted and used properly or improperly to support wars and persecution i suppose there is one prophecy of which christianity can securely keep hold mt jesus don t think that i have come to bring peace on earth i haven t come to bring peace but rather a sword
alt.atheism	re some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it makes sense to be one have any of you read tony campollo s book liar lunatic or the real thing i might be a little off on the title but he writes the book anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity in the process he became a christian himself i assume you are posting to encourage comments how much history has tony campello read not much it seems the arguements he uses i am summing up the book is about whether jesus was god or not i know many of you don t believe but listen to a different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what others have to say it is good to hear that there are a few reasonable christians about if only those christian scientists would take note in australia there is a very strong movement a bunch of christian scientists who believe that every single event in the bible is exactly true and that there is a rational explanation for it all that can be justified by using the laws of physics for example there are a few chaps who are trying to prove that the age of the universe is years old and that the error in conventional calculations is the result of the fact that the speed light has been rapidly decaying over the years and this has not been accounted for the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was or of course that he never existed and the bible was a story and was never intended to become a manifesto for a billion people did tony follow that one up some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed millions of people have died for a lie this point is difficult to substantiate since it is not well defined a great many religious arguments work in that way but consider the many aztec warriors who sacrificed themselves to their gods in the belief that this act would bring them victory of the spanish invaders the list is endless the aztecs lost btw call me a fool but i believe he did heal people that is perfectly reasonable but it is not grounds for me or anyone to become a christian more to the point it does not add weight to the claim that jesus was the real thing niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool logical people see this right away have you ever seen a documentary about the rise of nazi germany more to the point did tony mention this one could hardly call werner heisenberg and his many colleagues fools or illogical men their support of hitler was based i presume upon an emotional issue rather than a rational agreement with his principles obviously my argument is invalid if tony thought that hitler was sane therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing hmmm i don t think his arguments warrant the use of a therefore some other things to note he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms isaiah and elsewhere in hrs alone this in his betrayal and crucifixion i don t have my bible with me at this moment next time i write i will use it this is unfortunately what alot of religious discussions i have had with people result in quoting the bible the only reasonable way i think people can look at the bible is to treat the stories as some sort of metaphorical representation of the messages that the authors were trying to present if someone tries to interpret parts of the bible literally he or she will end up in all sorts of shit tony s argument would be perfectly reasonable for people who believe the events described in the bible took place but to convince someone who thinks the bible is total fiction that jesus is real by quoting the book is totally pointless for example in mathematics you cannot say a is equal to b because a is equal to b i don t think most people understand what a christian is that would possibly explain why there have so many people being killed in religious wars and why there are hundreds of different versions all claiming to be correct it is certainly not what i see a lot in churches rather i think it should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for god s sake he loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the same hey we can t do it god himself inspires us to turn our lives over to him that s tuff and most people don t want to do it to be a real christian would be something for the strong to persevere at but just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes time we don t rush it in one day christianity is your whole life it is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in a while we box everything into time units such as work at this time sports tv social life god is above these boxes and should be carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for ourselves i think if you posted this part to alt religion you would get more flames than here i have never really understood why the emotional sentiments of a stranger should be of interest to other people someone famous said that there two evils in life polititians and churchs one rules by fear of the living the other by fear of the dead if i am pressed i could probably find the exact quotation cheers charles
alt.atheism	re bible quiz in article apr ccsua ctstateu edu kellyb ccsua ctstateu edu wrote in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes only when the sun starts to orbit the earth will i accept the bible since when does atheism mean trashing other religions there must be a god of inbreeding to which you are his only son a i think that he has a rather witty sig file it sums up a great deal of atheistic thought imo in one simple sentence b atheism isn t an other religion sm steve mullins vos stratus com if a man empties his purse into his my opinions stratus opinions head no one can take it from him benjamin franklin
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was in article h r ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes i strongly suggest that you look up a book called the bible the quran and science by maurice baucaille a french surgeon it is not comprehensive but it is well researched i imagine your library has it or can get it for you through interlibrary loan i shall try to get hold of it when i have time to read of course in short dr baucaille began investigating the bible because of pre ceived scientific inaccuracies and inconsistencies he assumed that some of the problems may have been caused by poor translations in by gone days so he read what he could find in hebrew greek aramaic what he found was that the problems didn t go away they got worse then he decided to see if other religions had the same problems so he picked up the holy qur an in french and found similar prob lems but not as many so he applied the same logoic as he had with the bible he learned to read it in arabic the problems he had found with the french version went away in arabic he was unable to find a wealth of scientific statements in the holy qur an but what he did find made sense with modern understanding so he investigated the traditions the hadith to see what they had to say about science they were filled with science problems after all they were contemporary narratives from a time which had by pour standards a primitive world view his conclusion was that while he was impressed that what little the holy qur an had to say about science was accurate he was far more impressed that the holy qur an did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in the traditions how would a man of th century arabia have known what not to include in the holy qur an assuming he had authored it so in short the writer or writers of quran decided to stay away from science if you do not open your mouth then you don t put you foot into your mouth either but then if you say quran does not talk much about science then one can not make claims like bobby does that you have great science in quran basically i want to say that none of the religious texts are supposed to be scientific treatises so i am just requesting the theists to stop making such wild claims vinayak vinayak dutt e mail vdp mayo edu standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	bible contradictions i would like a list of bible contadictions from those of you who dispite being free from christianity are well versed in the bible
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article c l ey jts news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes actually my atheism is based on ignorance ignorance of the existence of any god don t fall into the atheists don t believe because of their pride mistake how do you know it s based on ignorance couldn t that be wrong why would it be wrong to fall into the trap that you mentioned if i m wrong god is free at any time to correct my mistake that he continues not to do so while supposedly proclaiming his undying love for my eternal soul speaks volumes as for the trap you are not in a position to tell me that i don t believe in god because i do not wish to unless you can know my motivations better than i do myself you should believe me when i say that i earnestly searched for god for years and never found him bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re a silly question on x tianity in article pww spac at rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter walker writes from pww spacsun rice edu peter walker subject re a silly question on x tianity date mon apr gmt in article qaqi inngje gap caltech edu werdna cco caltech edu andrew tong wrote so what
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was umar khan khan itd itd nrl navy mil wrote i strongly suggest that you look up a book called the bible the quran and science by maurice baucaille a french surgeon it is not comprehensive he was unable to find a wealth of scientific statements in the holy qur an but what he did find made sense with modern understanding so he investigated the traditions the hadith to see what they had to say about science they were filled with science problems after all they were contemporary narratives from a time which had by pour standards a primitive world view his conclusion was that while he was impressed that what little the holy qur an had to say about science was accurate he was far more impressed that the holy qur an did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in the traditions how would a man of th century arabia have known what not to include in the holy qur an assuming he had authored it this book is worth a read to get a sensible view of this issue the book is in two sections section contains a fairly reasonable analysis of the bible showing many inconsistencies between the bible and modern science well we all know that no surprises section analyses the koran s version of the old testament stories and seems on the face of it to present a good case showing the koran is consistent with modern science however it was plain to me that this consistency was only possible by the vague phraseology of the koran take the flood for example the bible is full of detail forty days and forty nights pair of every animal etc we all know this is nonsense the koran s description of the same event is so obscure as to make possible an interpretation such as a big river flooded for a few days and caused much damage yes no contradiction but also not much fact the koran might be consistent with modern science but being consistent due to its vagueness compared with other books of that time does not seem much of an achievement the book concludes by saying something like the koran must have had divine inspiration because at the time it was written there were a lot of to us now ridiculous ideas about the universe and none of them can be found in the koran arguing for the greatness of a book by talking about what it does not contain seems absurd in the extreme the above is of course from memory so i may have missed some points leonard e mail l newnham bradford ac uk
alt.atheism	re the bible and abortion james j lippard lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu wrote exodus and if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage yet there is no further injury he shall surely be fined as the woman s husband may demand of him and he shall pay as the judges decide but if there is any further injury then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life eye for eye tooth for tooth hand for hand foot for foot burn for burn wound for wound bruise for bruise the most straightforward interpretation of these verses is that if men in a fight strike a woman and cause her to miscarry the penalty is only a fine if however the woman is injured or dies the lex talionis doctrine of an eye for an eye applies this is the jewish interpretation and is supported by jewish commentaries on these verses this is quite an embarrassment for pro lifer christians so there is of course an alternate explanation the alternative interprets the word miscarriage to mean premature birth i e the child is born alive and further injury to mean injury to either the woman or the fetus this is not a straightforward interpretation it is not so far as i know supported by any jewish commentaries and it does not appeared to be supported by any other part of the bible what if any historical reference do we have to abortion at this time did the ancient jew have appropriate reference to understand abortion i am truly asking not making a point veiled as a question if there is little understanding of the medical procedure we know as abortion it is not surprising the bible makes little reference to it as it makes little reference to nuclear power and contamination while your interpretation is a reasonable one i see no reason to reject the other out of hand the king jimmy translation says if there is no further mischief this does not necessarily imply to the woman i know if my wife we expecting and someone cause her to spontaneously abort we would feel that a life was truly taken not simply a process halted
alt.atheism	you will all go to hell you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger wrote khomeini advocates the view that there was a series of twelve islamic leaders the twelve imams who are free of error or sin this makes him a heretic wow you re quicker to point out heresy than the church in the middle ages seriously though even the sheiks at al azhar don t claim that the shi ites are heretics most of the accusations and fabrications about shi ites come out of saudi arabia from the wahabis for that matter you should read the original works of the sunni imams imams of the four madhabs the teacher of at least two of them was imam jafar sadiq the sixth imam of the shi ites although there is plenty of false propaganda floating around about the shi ites esp since the revolution there are also many good works by shi ites which present the views and teachings of their school why make assumptions and allegations like people in this group have done about islam in general about shi ites
alt.atheism	re note to bobby m again in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes how about people who are not religous take the inner city there are many people that care little for religion lot of crime lot of murder this is the other end lack of religion that allows wrong to happen i lived in tokyo for a year and a half and one of the many reasons why i intend to go back indefinitely is the freedom one enjoys when one can walk anywhere and i mean anywhere at any time of day or night and not feel uneasy even if one s from an ethnic minority as i was clues for bobby why do i bother i tokyo is a city and inner tokyo is an inner city ii there is a negligible level of violent crime and a street murder will be a lead item on national tv news iii the population is almost universally atheistic next time i go for a stroll around beirut at night i ll let you know how it compares bobby mozumder cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick ac uk department of computer science tel university of warwick fax coventry cv al u k
alt.atheism	re islam a clearer view in article bafc i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes from i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau subject re islam a clearer view date tue apr gmt in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes sorry it is generally accepted that the rise of the inquisition is the reason why torture was introduced outside the romanic countries at the end of the middle ages in other words the holy mother church which is lead infallibly by the holy ghost has spread it the roman catholic church claims to be lead by the infallable pope that s why she the rc church has done so many wicked things to xtians and non believers alike the rationale that the pope speaking ex cathedra is infallible is based on the claim above the dogma about the pope is of jesuitic origin and has not been been accepted before the mid of the last century benedikt you re right thanks for enlightening me tammy
alt.atheism	cannanite genocide in the bible excuse me for my ignorance but i remember reading once that the biblical tribe known as the philistines still exists they are the modern day palestinians anyone out there with more info please post it tammy
alt.atheism	getting to the point to all a a readers i have been asked be several of you to post a list of the sda church s fundamental beliefs i warn you now it s a long list however i ll post it on sunday sabbath is coming up soon so i won t be reading on saturday and i don t have time to do it now i would greatly appreciate it if you would keep me in touch with what s going on i hope all of you have a reastful and relaxing weekend i hope it s the best one so far tammy
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger wrote he d have to be precise about is rejection of god and his leaving islam one is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the existence of god so long as one does not reject god i am sure that rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient number of proper witnesses the question in regard to the legal issue is his status at the time the crime was committed gregg so would you consider that rushdie would now be left alone and he could have a normal life in other words does islam support the notion of forgiving cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger wrote as i have stated on a parallel thread i am not an anarchist nor is islam anarchist therefore the uk should have control over itself however this does not change the fact that it is possible for citizens of the uk residing within the uk to be in violation of islamic law this is an interesting notion and one i m scared of in my case i m a finnish citizen i live in usa and i have to conform to the us laws however the finnish government is not actively checking out what i m doing in this country in other words checking out if i conform to the finnish laws however islamic law seems to be a curse that is following you everywhere in the world shades of eh cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re objective morality was re political atheists in article qlf ginn sn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider wrote which type of morality are you talking about in a natural sense it is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesn t adversely affect your own i guess hehehe so you say but this objective morality somehere tells you that this is not the case and you don t know all the rules of such transcendental game systems cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re free moral agency and kent s in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy wrote at the time ezekiel was written israel was in apostacy again and if i m not mistaken tyre was about to make war on israel like i said the prince of tyre was the human ruler of tyre he was a wicked man by calling satan the king of tyre ezekiel was saying that satan is the real ruler over tyre tammy is this all explicitly stated in the bible or do you assume that you know that ezekiel indirectly mentioned it could have been another metaphor for instance ezekiel was mad at his landlord so he talked about him when he wrote about the prince of tyre sorry but my interpretation is more mundane ezekiel wrote about the prince of tyre when we wrote about the prince of tyre cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re sci skeptic religion was why alt atheism in article j j psuvm psu edu john a johnson j j psuvm psu edu writes standard groups sci soc talk must conform to stricter rules when being established and must show a certain volume of postings or else they will cease to exist these groups also reach more sites on usenet than alt groups i already posted my opinion to mathew s suggestion which was that alt atheism is on the verge of having too many garbage postings from fundies and elevating its status to a standard group and consequently the volume of such postings could make it unreadable i tend to agree i came here when it first started and watched it grow from the roots on talk religion misc it seemed to take a while for enough atheists to come forward to get past the let s trash xians and such now there s a stable core and frankly there s a feeling that this is our group if we go mainstream we re going to be in a lot more places and every fucking fundy loonie freshman will be dumping on us to find jeesus and warn us that we re all going to hell want to see what we ll get go real alt fan brother jed and imagine that those imbecilic tirades will be here all the time every other post i m being selfish i find i really learn a lot here and the s n isn t too bad the browns and the boobys are a distraction but they are few enough that they even bring in some of the leavening needed to offset them but i greatly fear that mainstreaming would basically put us at the swamping level of the conners of the world regards dew dewey henize sys net admin risc hardware pager x
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie is it just me or has this part gotten beyond useful gregg is not as i understand his posts giving any support to the bounty on rushdie s life if that s correct end of one point gregg is using the concept of legal in a way most westerners don t accept his comments about islamic law i think make a great deal of sense to him and are even making a little sense to me now if a person is a member of a group religion or whatever they bind themselves to follow the ways of the group within the bounds of what the group requires as a minimum the big bone of contention here that i m picking up is that in the west we have secular governments that maintain more or less a level of control and of requirements outside the requirements of optional groups i think the majority of us reading this thread are in tune note i didn t say in agreement with the idea that you are finally responsible to the secular government and within that to the group or groups a person may have chosen with that in mind it not possible under secular law legally as most people would define the term to hold a person to a particular group once they decide to separate from it only if the secular authorities agree that there is a requirement of some sort contractual etc is there any secular enforcement allowed by a group to a group member or past group member a religion can and often does believe in and require additional duties of a group member and it can enforce the fulfillment of those duties in many ways ostracism is common for example but the limit comes when the enforcement would impose unwanted and or unaccepted onus on a person in conflict with secular law this is the difference in a theocracy the requirements of the secular authorities are by definition congruent with the religious authorities outside a theocracy this is not necessarily true religious requirements may coincide or may not similiarly religious consequences may or may not coincide with secular consequences if any regards dew dewey henize sys net admin risc hardware pager x
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bnr ca rashid writes deletions the fatwa was levelled at the person of rushdie any actions of rushdie that feed the situation contribute to the legitimization of the ruling the book remains in circulation not by some independant will of its own but by the will of the author and the publishers the fatwa against the person of rushdie encompasses his actions as well the crime was certainly a crime in progress at many levels and was being played out and played up in the the full view of the media p s i m not sure about this but i think the charge of shatim also applies to rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella of the fasad ruling if this is grounded firmly in islam as you claim then you have just exposed islam as the grounds for terrorism plain and simple whether you like it or not whether rushdie acted like a total jerk or not there is no acceptable civilized basis for putting someone in fear of their life for words it simply does not matter whether his underlying motive was to find the worst possible way he could to insult muslims and their beliefs got that you do not threaten the life of someone for words when you do you quite simply admit the backruptcy of your position if you support threatening the life of someone for words you are not yet civilized this is exactly where i and many of the people i know have to depart from respecting the religions of others when those beliefs allow and encourage by interpretation the killing of non physical opposition you or i or anyone are more than privledged to believe that someone whether it be rushdie or bush or hussien or whover is beyond the pale of civilized society and you can condemn his her soul refuse to allow any members of your association to interact with him her peacably demonstrate to try to convince others to disassociate themselves from the miscreants or whatever short of physical force but once you physically threaten or support physical threats you get much closer to your earlier comparison of rape with you as the rapist who whines she asked for it look how she was dressed blaming the victim when you are unable to be civilized doesn t fly dew dewey henize sys net admin risc hardware pager x
alt.atheism	nicknames in article ufnyj a voqit vpa andrew cmu edu nm w andrew cmu edu nanci ann miller writes jcopelan nyx cs du edu the one and only writes welcome i am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people are known by on alt atheism didn t know we had such a list did you your have been awarded the nickname of buckminster so the next time you post an article sign with your nickname like so dave buckminster fuller thanks again jim humor means never having to say you re sorry copeland of course the list has to agree with the nickname laws laid down by the gipu almost years ago you know the of them that were written on the iron tablets that melted once and had to be reinscribed since i am a prophet of the gipu i decree that you should post the whole list of nicknames for the frequent posters here if the first rule of humor is never having to say you re sorry then the second rule must be never having to explain yourself few things are worse that a joke explained in spite of this and because of requests for me to post my list o nicknames i must admit that no such list exists it was simply a plot device along with me being the keeper o the list to make the obvious play on the last name of fuller and to advance the idea that such a list should be made i assumed that the ol timers would recognize it for what it is nevertheless how about a list o nicknames for alt atheism posters if you think of a good one just post it and see if others like it we could start with those posters who annoy us the most like bobby or bill jim d oh i broke the second rule of humor copeland if god is dead and the actor plays his part sting his words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart history without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse will teach us without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war in article e rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes rush leland stanford edu voelkerding writes in article apr seachg com chrisb seachg com chris blask writes add to this the outrageous cost of putting someone to death special cell block years of court costs extra guards and the benefits of the death penalty entirely disappear that s because of your earlier claim that the one innocent death overrides the benefit of all the others obviously it s tragic but it is no argument for doing away with the death penalty if we went to war and worried about accidentally killing civilians all of the time because our determination of who the enemy really is is imperfect then there is no way to win the war yes fortunately we have right thinking folks like your good self in power and it was therefore deemed acceptable to slaughter tens or even hundreds of thousands of iraqis in order to liberate oil h h hkuwait we won the war hurrah hurrah the number of civilian iraqi deaths were way over exaggerated and exploited for anti war emotionalism by the liberal news media the facts are that less iraqis died in the gulf war than did civilians in any other war of comparable size this century this was due mostly to the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques which were technically possible only recently the idea that hundreds of thousands of iraqi citizens died is ludicrous not even hundreds of thousands of iraqi soldiers died and they were the ones being targeted or do you think that the us and its allies were specifically out to kill and maim iraqi civilians either the smart bombs didn t hit their targets and we know they did or they were targeting civilian targets which is hardly condusive to destroying iraq s military potential the military mission planners are not fools they know they have to hit military targets to win a war hitting civilian targets does nothing but unite the people against you not a laudable goal if one wants the people to rise up against their tyrant dictator ok so some innocent people died yes maybe the unarmed civilians fleeing along that road didn t need to be bombed to bits perhaps that kid with half his face burned off and the little girl with the mangled legs weren t entirely guilty but it s worth the death of a few innocents to save the oil h h hlives of the kuwaiti people isn t it after all the iraqis may not have had a chance to vote for saddam but they showed their acceptance of his regime by not assassinating him right all that surrendering and fleeing along open roads was just a devious ploy we were entirely within our rights to bomb em just in case without finding out if they were soldiers how about all the innocent people who died in blanket bombing in ww i don t hear you bemoaning them war is never an exact science but with smart bombs it s becoming more exact with a smaller percentage of civilian casualties sometimes mistakes are made targets are misidentified innocents die that s war the way it really is but the alternative to allow tyrannical dictators to treat the earth like it s one big rummage sale grabbing everything they can get is worse like patrick henry said some years ago i know not what course others may take but as for me give me liberty or give me death war is always the price one must be willing to pay if one wishes to stay free the death penalty was conceived as a deterrent to crime but the legal shenanigans that have been added automatic appeals lengthy court battles etc have relegated that purpose to a very small part of what it should be hence the question is do we instate the death penalty as it was meant to be and see if that deters crime or do we get rid of it entirely yes let s reinstate the death penalty the way it ought to be all that shit about fair trials and a court of appeals just gets in the way of justice let s give the police the absolute right to gun down the guilty and save ourselves the expense of all those lawyers think of the knock on benefits too la would never have had to spend so much money cleaning up after riots and holding showcase trials if the cops had been allowed to do their job properly a quick bullet through the head of rodney king and another for the cameraman and everyone would have been saved a great deal of unnecessary paperwork and expense after all if the police decide a man s guilty that ought to be enough the fact that the death penalty has been shown not to have any deterrent effect over imprisonment well that s entirely irrelevant mathew mathew your sarcasm is noted but you are completely off base here you come off sounding like a complete peace nik idiot although i feel sure that was not your intent so the iraqi war was wrong eh i m sure that appeasement would have worked better than war just like it did in ww eh i guess we shouldn t have fought ww either just think of all those innocent german civilians killed in dresden and hamburg how about all the poor french who died in the crossfire because we invaded the continent we should have just let hitler take over europe and you d be speaking german instead of english right now tyrants like hussein have to be stopped his kind don t understand diplomacy they only understand the point of a gun my only regret is that bush wimped out and didn t have the military roll into baghdad so now hussein is still in power and the iraqi people s sacrifice not to mention the americans who died was for naught liberating kuwait was a good thing but wiping hussein off the map would ve been better and as for poor poor rodney king did you ever stop and think why the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of not guilty those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape but the jury looked at all the evidence evidence which you and i have not seen when one makes a judgment without the benefit of a trial where evidence can be presented on both sides one has simply lowered himself to the level of vigilante justice a state of mind which your sarcasm above seemingly spoke against but instead tends to support in the case against the policemen law in this country is intended to protect the rights of the accused whether they be criminals or cops one is not found guilty if there is a reasonable doubt of one s guilt and only the jury is in a position to assess the evidence and render a verdict anyone else is simply succumbing to verbal vigilantism regards jim b
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article apr st andrews ac uk nrp st andrews ac uk norman r paterson writes i don t think you re right about germany my daughter was born there and i don t think she has any german rights eg to vote or live there beyond the rights of all ec citizens she is a british citizen by virtue of her parentage but that s not full citizenship for example i don t think her children could be british by virtue of her in the same way i am fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship by making an application for it it might require immigration to germany but i am almost certain that once applied for citizenship is inevitable in this case nope germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws the ethnic germans who have lived in russia for over years automatically become citizens if they move to germany but the turks who are now in their third generation in germany can t it s not a very good example to show citizenship without descent karl lastly i come to china in the hope all you touch and all you see of fulfilling a lifelong ambition is all your life will ever be dropping acid on the great wall duke pink floyd a lie is still a lie even if billion people believe it
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell on fri apr edt jsn psuvm psu edu said j you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be j prepared for your eternal damnation hmm i ve got my mst k lunch box my travel scrabble and a couple of kegs of bass ale i m all set let s go everybody ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article bb i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes i assume that you say here a religious law is for the followers of the religion that begs the question why the religion has the right to define who is a follower even when the offenders disagree no i say religious law applies to those who are categorized as belonging to the religion when event being judged applies this prevents situations in which someone is a member of a religion who when charged claims that he she was not a member of the religion so they are free to go on as if nothing had happened gregg
alt.atheism	re an anecdote about islam in article bb i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes a brutal system filtered through leniency is not lenient huh how do you rate public floggings or floggings at all chopping off the hands heads or other body parts what about stoning i don t have a problem with floggings particularly when the offenders have been given a chance to change their behavior before floggings are given i do have a problem with maiming in general by whatever means in my opinion no one who has not maimed another should be maimed in the case of rape the victim is maimed physically and emotionally so i wouldn t have a problem with maiming rapists obviously i wouldn t have a problem with maiming murderers either may i ask if you had the same opinion before you became a muslim sure yes i did you see i don t think that rape and murder should be dealt with lightly you being so interested in leniency for leniency s sake apparently think that people should simply be told the did a bad thing and what about the simple chance of misjudgements misjudgments should be avoided as much as possible i suspect that it s pretty unlikely that given my requirement of repeated offenses that misjudgments are very likely orient is not a place having a single character your ignorance exposes itself nicely here read carefully i have not said all the orient shows primitive machism well then why not use more specific words than orient probably because in your mind there is no need to it s all the same because it contains sufficient information while more detail is possible it is not necessary and europe shows civilized bullshit this is bullshit time to put out or shut up you ve substantiated nothing and are blabbering on like islamists who talk about the west as the great satan you re both guilty of stupidities i just love to compare such lines to the common plea of your fellow believers not to call each others names in this case to substantiate it the quran allows that one beats one s wife into submission really care to give chapter and verse we could discuss it primitive machism refers to that i have misspelt that before my fault again not all of the orient follows the qur an so you ll have to do better than that sorry you haven t put out enough islam expresses extramarital sex extramarital sex is a subset of sex it is suppressedin islam that marial sexis allowed or encouraged in islam as it is in many branches of christianity too misses the point read the part about the urge for sex again religions that run around telling people how to have sex are not my piece of cake for two reasons suppressing a strong urge needs strong measures and it is not their business anyway believe what you wish i thought you were trying to make an argument all i am reading are opinions it is an argument that you doubt the validity of the premises does not change it if you want to criticize it do so time for you to put up or shut up this is an argument for why you don t like religions that suppress sex a such it s an irrelevant argument if you d like to generalize it to an objective statement then fine my response is then you have given no reason for your statement that sex is not the business of religion one of your arguments the urge for sex in adolescents is not so strong that any overly strong measures are required to suppress it if the urge to have sex is so strong in an adult then that adult can make a commensurate effort to find a marriage partner gregg
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article apr princeton edu qpliu phoenix princeton edu q p liu writes so while faith itself is a gift obedience is what makes faith possible what makes obeying different from believing i am still wondering how it is that i am to be obedient when i have no idea to whom i am to be obedient it is all written in the wholly babble the users guide to invisible pink unicorns to be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns you must read the babble and obey what is written in it to obey what is written in the babble you must believe that doing so is the way to be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns to believe that obeying what is written in the babble leads to believing in invisible pink unicorns you must essentially believe in invisible pink unicorns this bit of circular reasoning begs the question what makes obeying different from believing qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bnr ca rashid writes what about the twelve imams who he considered incapable of error or sin khomeini supports this view of the twelve imans this is heresy for the very reasons i gave above i would be happy to discuss the issue of the imams with you although my preference would be to move the discussion to another newsgroup i feel a philosophy or religion group would be more appropriate i think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how deviant the view as i ve articulated it above which may not be the true view of khomeini is from the basic principles of islam so that the non muslim readers of this group will see how far from the simple basics of islam such views are on the face of them and if they are not in contradiction with the basics of islam how subtle such issues are and how it seems sects exist in islam while they are explicitly proscribed by the qur an the topic is deeply embedded in the world view of islam and the esoteric teachings of the prophet s a heresy does not enter into it at all except for those who see islam only as an exoteric religion that is only nominally if at all concerned with the metaphysical substance of man s being and nature in my opinion considering any human being as having a substance or metaphysical fundamentally different from that of any other human being is a heretical notion and one proscribed by islam from your posts you seem fairly well versed in sunni thought you should seek to know shi ite thought through knowledgeable shi ite authors as well at least that much respect is due before the charge of heresy is levelled absolutely i would be interested in discussing this privately and i am interested in hearing how one might try to make the concept of error free and sinless human beings philosophically consistent with the teachings of the qur an however prima facie such attemptsa are highly susceptible to degenerating into monkery explicitly proscribed by the qur an as salaam a laikum alaikum wassalam gregg
alt.atheism	re koresh is god date fri apr from mathew mathew mantis co uk the latest news seems to be that koresh will give himself up once he s finished writing a sequel to the bible mathew writing the seven seals or something along those lines he s already written the first of the seven which was around pages or so and has handed it over to an assistant for proofreading i would expect any decent messiah to have a built in spellchecker maybe koresh will come with one
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was date fri apr gmt from umar khan khan itd itd nrl navy mil his conclusion was that while he was impressed that what little the holy qur an had to say about science was accurate he was far more impressed that the holy qur an did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in the traditions how would a man of th century arabia have known what not to include in the holy qur an assuming he had authored it well it looks like the folks in soc religion islam have loosened up a bit and are discussing this topic as well as the banking interest topic a few books on the subject have also been mentioned in addition to the one you mentioned these may be hard to find but i think i may take a stab at it out of curiosity i know the one film i saw on this subject was pretty weak and the only two quotes i have seen which were used to show science in the koran which i posted here were also pretty vague i suspect that these books will extrapolate an awful lot on the quotes they have at least one poster on the islam channel seems to have some misgivings about the practice of using the koran to decide what is good science i wonder if islam has ever come up with the equivalent of the christians creation science on any topic it would be interesting to find a history of scientific interpretations of the koran to see if anyone used the koran to support earlier science which has since been discarded it is all too easy to look at science as it exists today and then interpret passages to match those findings people do similar things with the sayings of nostradamus all the time anyway it is a rather unique claim of islam and may be worth checking
alt.atheism	re keith is a relativist f levels unisa edu au the desert brat writes keith if you start wafffling on about how it is different for a human to maul someone thrown into it s cage so to speak you d better start posting tome decent evidence or retract your i think there is an absolute morality blurb a few weeks ago did i claim that there was an absolute morality or just an objective one keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour died out and we are left with the ones that did evolve such behaviour entirely by chance that s the entire point are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an organism evolves cooperative behaviour yes natural morality is a morality that developed naturally what about the natural morality of bee dance huh keith
alt.atheism	re objective morality was re political atheists sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes which type of morality are you talking about in a natural sense it is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesn t adversely affect your own i guess hehehe so you say but this objective morality somehere tells you that this is not the case and you don t know all the rules of such transcendental game systems which objective system are you talking about what is its goal again which brand of morality are you talking about keith
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bnr ca rashid writes in article apr zeus calpoly edu jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john munch wrote in article apr bnr ca rashid writes p s i m not sure about this but i think the charge of shatim also applies to rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella of the fasad ruling please define the words shatim and fasad before you use them again my apologies shatim i believe refers to slandering or spreading slander and lies about the prophets a s any of the prophets basically any prophet i ve ever dealt with has either been busy hawking stolen merchandise or selling swampland house lots in florida then you hear all the stories of sexual abuse by prophets and how the families of victims were paid to keep quiet about it it s a kind of willful caulmny and cursing that s indicated by the word this is the best explanation i can come up with off the top of my head i ll try and look up a more technical definition when i have the time never mind that but let me tell you about this chevelle i bought from this dude you guessed it a prophet named mohammed i ve got the car for like two days when the tranny kicks then manny my mechanic tells me it was loaded with sawdust take a guess whether mohammed was anywhere to be found i don t think so fasad is a little more difficult to describe again this is not a technical definition i ll try and get that later literally oh mohammed the word fasad means mischief but it s a mischief on the order of magnitude indicated by the word corruption it s when someone who is doing something wrong to begin with seeks to escalate the hurt yeah you mohammed disorder concern harm etc the mischief initially caused by their actions the wrong is specifically related to attacks against god and his messenger and mischief corruption disorder etc you slimy mass of pond scum resulting from that the attack need not be a physical attack and there are different levels of penalty proscribed depending on the extent of the mischief and whether the person or persons sought to make hay of the situation the severest punishment is death yeah right you re the one should be watching your butt you and your buddy allah the stereo he sold me croaked after two days your ass is grass jim yeah that s right jim
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution they picked words whose meanings implied the intent we have already looked in the dictionary to define the word isn t this sufficient we only need to ask the question what did the founding fathers consider cruel and unusual punishment hanging hanging there slowing being strangled would be very painful both physically and psychologicall i imagine well most hangings are very quick and i imagine painless firing squad note not a clean way to die back in those days etc all would be considered cruel under your definition all were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers and hangings and firing squads are allowed today too and if these things were not considered cruel then surely a medical execution painless would not be either keith
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution i realise that this is widely held belief in america but in fact the clause on cruel and unusual punishments like a lot of the rest was lifted from the english bill of rights of just because the wording is elsewhere does not mean they didn t spend much time on the wording we have already looked in the dictionary to define the word isn t this sufficient since the dictionary said that a lack of mercy or an intent to inflict injury or grief counted as cruel sure people can be described as cruel in this way but punishments cannot keith
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes no i say religious law applies to those who are categorized as belonging to the religion when event being judged applies this who does the categorizing i d cheat on hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists in article qnpa inn av gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes hanging hanging there slowing being strangled would be very painful both physically and psychologicall i imagine well most hangings are very quick and i imagine painless i think this is a misnomer firing squad note not a clean way to die back in those days etc all would be considered cruel under your definition all were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers and hangings and firing squads are allowed today too and if these things were not considered cruel then surely a medical execution painless would not be either but this just shows then that painful execution is not considered cruel and unusual punishment this shows that cruel as used in the constitution does not refer to whether or not the punishment causes physical pain rather it must be a different meaning i d cheat on hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	re the nonexistance of atheists in article kutluk ccl umist ac uk kutluk ccl umist ac uk kutluk ozguven writes atheists are not mentioned in the quran because from a quranic point of view and a minute s reasoning one can see that there is no such thing i guess that s why scientists probably aren t mentioned either or stock brokers or television repairmen it s precious to know just how deep the brainwashing from childhood that it takes to progress a religion cleans away a very substantial part of the reasoning neurons but don t mind me i don t exist jim halat
alt.atheism	re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes deletion sure yes i did you see i don t think that rape and murder should be dealt with lightly you being so interested in leniency for leniency s sake apparently think that people should simply be told the did a bad thing straw man and you brought up leniency and what about the simple chance of misjudgements misjudgments should be avoided as much as possible i suspect that it s pretty unlikely that given my requirement of repeated offenses that misjudgments are very likely assuming that misjudgements are not correlated deletion i just love to compare such lines to the common plea of your fellow believers not to call each others names in this case to substantiate it the quran allows that one beats one s wife into submission really care to give chapter and verse we could discuss it has been discussed here chapter and verse were cited i assume that you weren t looking then let s be more exact do you think it is not in the quran and what would your consequences be when it it was shown to be in it primitive machism refers to that i have misspelt that before my fault again not all of the orient follows the qur an so you ll have to do better than that i have not claimed that it is sufficient for the argument when there are a lot of male dominated societies that qualify as machistic are you going to say that the situation of women is better in sufficeint areas of the orient deletion this is an argument for why you don t like religions that suppress sex a such it s an irrelevant argument if you d like to generalize it to an objective statement then fine my response is then you have given no reason for your statement that sex is not the business of religion one of your arguments the urge for sex in adolescents is not so strong that any overly strong measures are required to suppress it if the urge to have sex is so strong in an adult then that adult can make a commensurate effort to find a marriage partner you apparently have trouble reading things you don t like the point was having sex the way one wishes being a strong desire marriage is a red herring tell me about homosexuals for one you simply ignore everything that doesn t fit into the world as you would like to have it and as for the situation of adolescents one has probably keep your combination of leniency and maiming in mind whe you say that it does not take overly strong measures to suppress the urge for sex in adolescents benedikt
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article apr eagle wesleyan edu kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu writes deletion nope germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws the ethnic germans who have lived in russia for over years automatically become citizens if they move to germany but the turks who are now in their third generation in germany can t that s wrong they can benedikt
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic jon livesey writes so why do i read in the papers that the qumram texts had different versions of some ot texts did i misunderstand reading newspapers to learn about this kind of stuff is not the best idea in the world newspaper reporters are notoriously ignorant on the subject of religion and are prone to exaggeration in the interests of having a real story that is a bigger headline let s back up to at this point we have the masoretic text the various targums translations commentaries in aramaic etc and the septuagint the ancient greek translation the masoretic text is the standard jewish text and essentially does not vary in some places it has obvious corruptions all of which are copied faithfully from copy to copy these passages in the past were interpreted by reference to the targums and to the septuagint now the septuagint differs from the masoretic text in two particulars first it includes additional texts and second in some passages there are variant readings from the masoretic text in addition to fixing predating the various corrupted passages it must be emphasized that to the best of my knowledge these variations are only signifcant to bible scholars and have little theological import the dead sea scroll materials add to this an ancient copy of almost all of isaiah and fragments of various sizes of almost all other ot books there is also an abundance of other material but as far as i know there is no sign there of any hebrew antecdent to the apocrypha the extra texts in the septuagint as far as analysis has proceeded there are also variations between the dss texts and the masoretic versions these tend to reflect the septuagint where the latter isn t obviously in error again though the differences thus far are not significant theologically there is this big expectation that there are great theological surprises lurking in the material but so far this hasn t happened the dss are important because there is almost no textual tradition in the ot unlike for the nt c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes ray netcom com ray fischer writes frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes plus questions for you why do subjectivists relativists nihilists get so het up about the idea that relativism is better than objectivism to the degree that relativism is a more accurate decription of the truth than is objectivism it provides more power and ability to control events i think you lose the right to talk about the truth once you say values are relative accuracy is a value judgement too it so happens i agree with the substance of what you say below but it s clear to me that at least some values are objective truth is better than falsehood peace is better than war education is better than ignorance we know these things if we know anything while i ll agree that these are generally held to be good things i question whether they come very close to being objective values especially considering that at one time or another each has been viewed as being undesirable i doubt you could even come up with anything that could be said to be universally good or bad and when i referred to the truth i was using the term hypothetically realizing full well that there may not even be such a thing assuming for the moment that morals are relative then two relativists can recognize that neither has a lock on the absolute truth and they can proceed to negotiate a workable compromise that produces the desired results no they cannot because they acknowledge up front that the desired results do not exist that after all is the meaning of compromise plus some problems if the relativists have no values in common compromise is impossible what happens then who if anyone is right what happens if one relativist has a value never compromise a value plant bombs in crowded shopping areas after all if morals are relative these values cannot meaningfully be said to be incorrect true enough but they cannot be said to be anything more than personal morals one thing notably lacking in most extremists is any sense of personal accountability the justification for any socially unacceptable behaviour is invariably some higher authority aka absolute moral truth assuming that there is an absolute morality two disagreeing objectivists can either be both wrong or just one of them right there is no room for compromise once you beleive in absolute morals you must accept that you are amoral or that everyone who disagrees with you is amoral untrue one can accept that one does not know the whole truth part of the objective truth about morality may well be that flexibility is better than rigidity compromise is better than believing you have a lock on morals etc in the same way i can believe in an objective reality without claiming to know the mechanism for quantum collapse or who shot jfk an objective truth that says one cannot know the objective truth interesting notion certainly one can have as one s morals a belief that compromise is good but to compromise on the absolute truth is not something most people do very successfully i suppose one could hold compromise as being an absolute moral but then what happens when someone else insists on no compromise how do you compromise on compromising given a choice between a peaceful compromise or endless contention i d say that compromise seems to be better and i would agree but it s bloody to pointless to speak of it if it s merely a matter of taste is your liking for peace any better founded than someone else s liking for ice cream i m looking for a way to say yes to that question and relativism isn t it almost invariably when considering the relative value of one thing over another be it morals or consequences people only consider those aspects which justify a desired action or belief in justifying a commitement to peace i might argue that it lets people live long healthy and peaceful lives while that much may well be true it is incomplete in ignoring the benefits of war killing off the most agressive member of society trimming down the population stimulating production the equation is always more complex than presented to characterize relative morals as merely following one s own conscience desires is to unduly simplify it ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
alt.atheism	re islamic banks was re slavery in article monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes in apr bmw mayo edu vdp mayo edu vinayak dutt writes so instead of calling it interest on deposits you call it returns on investements and instead of calling loans you call it investing in business that is in other words floating stocks in your company no interest is different from a return on an investment for one thing a return on an investment has greater risk and not a set return i e the amount of money you make can go up or down or you might even lose money the difference is the risk of loss is shared by the investor rather than practically all the risk being taken by the borrower when the borrower borrows from the bank but is it different from stocks if you wish to call an investor in stocks as a banker well then its your choice relabeling does not make it interest free it is not just relabeling as i have explained above it is relabeling also its still not interest free the investor is still taking some money as dividend on his investment ofcourse the investor in islamic banking its your so called bank is taking more risk than the usual bank but its still getting some thing back in return also have you heard of junk bonds vinayak vinayak dutt e mail vdp mayo edu standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	we don t need no stinking subjects in article ql avinn a gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes no if you re going to claim something then it is up to you to prove it think cold fusion well i ve provided examples to show that the trend was general and you or others have provided some counterexamples mostly ones surrounding mating practices etc i don t think that these few cases are enough to disprove the general trend of natural morality and again the mating practices need to be reexamined so what you re saying is that your mind is made up and you ll just explain away any differences at being statistically insignificant try to find immoral non mating related activities so you re excluding mating related activities from your natural morality no but mating practices are a special case i ll have to think about it some more so you ll just explain away any inconsistancies in your theory as being a special case yes i think that the natural system can be objectively deduced with the goal of species propogation in mind but i am not equating the two as you so think that is an objective system isn t necessarily the natural one are you or are you not the man who wrote a natural moral system is the objective moral system that most animals follow indeed but while the natural system is objective all objective systems are not the natural one so the terms can not be equated the natural system is a subset of the objective ones you just equated them re read your own words now since homosexuality has been observed in most animals including birds and dolphins are you going to claim that most animals have the capacity of being immoral i don t claim that homosexuality is immoral it isn t harmful although it isn t helpful either to the mating process and when you say that homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom don t you mean bisexuality a study release in found that of female seagulls are lesbians well i m saying that these goals are not inherent that is why they must be postulates because there is not really a way to determine them otherwise although it could be argued that they arise from the natural goal but they are somewhat removed postulate to assume posit that s right the goals themselves aren t inherent i can create a theory with a postulate that the sun revolves around the earth that the moon is actually made of green cheese and the stars are the portions of angels that intrudes into three dimensional reality you could but such would contradict observations now apply this last sentence of your to your theory notice how your are contridicting observations i can build a mathematical proof with a postulate that given the length of one side of a triangle the length of a second side of the triangle and the degree of angle connecting them i can determine the length of the third side but a postulate is something that is generally or always found to be true i don t think your postulate would be valid you don t know much math do you the ability to use sas to determine the length of the third side of the triangle is fundemental to geometry guess which one people are going to be more receptive to in order to assume something about your system you have to be able to show that your postulates work yes and i think the goals of survival and happiness do work you think they don t or are they not good goals goals postulates again if one of the goals of this objective natural morality system you are proposing is survival of the species then homosexuality is immoral kcochran nyx cs du edu b c d e f g k m r s t tsakc my thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza ok
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in qkq t n horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp writes attempting to define objective morality i ll take a wild guess and say freedom is objectively valuable i base this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition almost all would want to complain so long as you keep that almost in there freedom will be a mostly valuable thing to most people that is i think you re really saying a real big lot of people agree freedom is subjectively valuable to them that s good and a quite nice starting point for a moral system but it s not universal and thus not objective therefore i take it that to assert or believe that freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on a rainy day it isn t in sahara disclaimer it s great to be young and insane
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article ql qinn kf gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes schneider natural morality may specifically be thought of as a code of ethics that a certain species has developed in order to survive wait are we talking about ethics or morals here is the distinction important yes we see this countless times in the animal kingdom and such a natural system is the basis for our own system as well huh well our moral system seems to mimic the natural one in a number of ways please describe these number of ways in detail then explain the any contradictions that may arise in order for humans to thrive we seem to need to live in groups here s your problem we seem to need what s wrong with the highlighted word i don t know what is wrong is it possible for humans to survive for a long time in the wild yes it s possible but it is difficult humans are a social animal and that is a cause of our success define difficult and in order for a group to function effectively it needs some sort of ethical code this statement is not correct isn t it why don t you think so explain the laws in america stating that you have to drive on the right hand side of the road and by pointing out that a species conduct serves to propogate itself i am not trying to give you your tautology but i am trying to show that such are examples of moral systems with a goal propogation of the species is a goal of a natural system of morality so anybody who lives in a monagamous relationship is not moral after all in order to ensure propogation of the species every man should impregnate as many women as possible no as noted earlier lack of mating such as abstinence or homosexuality isn t really destructive to the system it is a worst neutral so if every member of the species was homosexual this wouldn t be destructive to the survival of the species for that matter in herds of horses only the dominate stallion mates when he dies is killed whatever the new dominate stallion is the only one who mates these seems to be a case of your natural system of morality trying to shoot itself in the figurative foot again the mating practices are something to be reexamined the whole theory needs to be reexamined kcochran nyx cs du edu b c d e f g k m r s t tsakc my thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza ok
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes in article qjd o nlv horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes firstly science has its basis in values not the other way round so you better explain what objective atoms are and how we get them from subjective values before we go any further atoms are not objective they aren t even real what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties of our surroundings all of which is subjective rest deleted you were a liberal arts major weren tcha guess you never saw that photo of the smallest logo in the world ibm made with noble gas atoms krypton xenon i forget the specifics atoms trees electrons are all independently observable and verifiable morals aren t see the difference tep men who love brown tend to be warm and deep sensitive to the needs and desires of their partners sex is a hour a day thing snuggling by the fire walking in the rain or catching snowflakes on their tongue is a real turn on to a lover of brown thanx becka
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in apr batman bmd trw com responding to dave first with official a a nickname fuller the death penalty is a deterrent dave the person executed will never commit a crime again guaranteed that means that it is an effective anti recidivism measure it does not say that it deters an individual from committing a capital crime in the first place the true question is whether the threat of death is likely to actually stop one from murdering or commiting treason are there any other capital crimes anywhere in the usa that is if there were no death penalty would its introduction deter a would be criminal from committing her his crime i doubt it this is only the first step even if it were a strong deterrent short of being a complete deterrent i would reject it for what about the case of the innocent executed and even if we could eliminate this possibility i would reject the death penalty as immoral this makes me something of a radical on the issue although i think there are many opponents of captial punishment who agree with me but who find the innocent executed the strongest argument to make i would if magically placed in charge facilitate state aided suicide for criminals who have life sentences this could be a replacement for capital punishment those who don t want to live the rest of their lives in jail would always have this option scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in c l tg k q news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu writes if some society came up with a good reason for why rape and murder are ok i would be consistent with my position and hold that it was still wrong my basis of morality is not on societal norms or on current legalities my basis is surprise surprise on both the bible and on inherent moral abhorrences ah but what exactly is inherently abhorrent and why is it so what you re saying is in effect i think some things are repulsive and i know a whole bunch of other people who agree with me so they should be deemed absolutely immoral now and forever period which in and of itself is nice enough to some extent i agree with you but i do not agree that things are inherently or absolutely immoral they are labeled immoral each for its own good reason and if the reason can even theoretically change then so can the label yes that s vague and the only way i know off the top of my head to defend it is to say that all humans are similarly made yes that falls into the trap of creation no it doesn t humans are to some extent similar because we all belong to the same species that that species has evolved is another story altogether to a certain extent evolution can even lend credence to moral absolutism of a flavour my arguments are that it is better to exhibit trust goodness love respect courage and honesty in any society rather than deceipt hatred disrespect cowardness and dishonesty you re saying morality is what ll keep society alive and kicking it is i think up to a point but societies are not all alike and neither are their moralities no i haven t been everywhere and seen everyone but according to my thesis i don t have to since i hold that we were all created similarly similar identical if that makes an unfalsifiable thesis just say so and i ll both work out what i can and punt to fellow theists no it s falsifiable through finding someoe who was created different whatever that might be in the real world disclaimer it s great to be young and insane
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article qla g afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci which ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim community in the uk and elsewhere grow up childish propagandist gregg i m really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice things aren t quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim them to be upsets you you have done no such thing bbci was an example of an islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet me they weren t real islamic owners and operators an islamic bank is a bank which operates according to the rules of islam in regard to banking this is done explicitly by the bank this was not the case with bcci and why did these naive depositors put their life savings into bcci rather than the nasty interest motivated western bank down the street this is crap bcci was motivated by the same motives as other international banks with perhaps an emphasis on dealing with outlaws and the intelligence services of various governments so please don t try to con us into thinking that it will all work out right next time back to childish propaganda again you really ought to get a life rather than wasting bandwith on such empty typing there are thousands of islamic banks operating throughout the world which no one ever hears about if you want to talk about corrupted banks we can talk about all the people who ve been robbed by american banks gregg
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article qlb oinn shelley u washington edu jimh carson u washington edu james hogan writes p s t i come to my senses and accept the all knowing wisdom and power of the quran and allah not only that but allah himself drops by to congratulate me on my wise choice allah rolls a few bones and we get down then allah gets out the crisco bends over and invites me to take a spin around the block wow p s t i realize that maybe allah is looking for more of a commitment than i m ready for so i say man i ve got some programming to do gotta go i ll call you p s t thinking it over i renounce islam what loyalty jim it seems you ve been reading a little too much russell hoban lately as hemingway said my imitators always imitate the bad aspects of my writing hoban would no doubt say the same here gregg
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article c l jo news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in qlapk d v morrow stanford edu salem pangea stanford edu bruce salem writes in article c jrde m z news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes theory of creationism my theistic view of the theory of creationism there are many others is stated in genesis in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth wonderful now try alittle imaginative thinking huh imaginative thinking what did that have to do with what i said would it have been better if i said the world has existed forever and never was created and has an endless supply of energy and there was spontaneous generation of life from non life would that make me all wise and knowing and imaginative no but at least it would be a theory l warren kurt vonroeschlaub o kv iastate edu iowa state university math department carver hall ames ia j
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in jsn psuvm psu edu jsn psuvm psu edu writes who cares what the fellow wrote anyway i mean it came from psuvm so how could it possibly have been of any importance disperse smileys until no longer offended disclaimer it s great to be young and insane
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes well in one was not allowed to leave the domain of authority one is free to leave islam if one regards islamic law as a curse one should consider leaving islam the only way out seems to be death i d cheat on hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists in article apr daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes you exagerate to the point of libel i gave only unpopular reasons deliberately or do you think that we should have let iraq absorb kuwait i could make the tired old poland comparison but i think you ve heard it but the principle aplies never play a chamberlain and roll over to another country being invaded that only invites further invasions perhaps we ought not to have supported a known genocidist provided him with weapon systems tactical support technology etc we made suddam hussein what did bush call him oh yes an ally and a freind i d cheat on hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article tan psuvm psu edu andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes in article jsn psuvm psu edu jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation readers of the group how convenient that he doesn t have a real name let s start up the letters to the sysadmin shall we his real name is jeremy scott noonan vmoper psuvm psu edu should have at least some authority or at least know who to email postmast psuvm bitnet respectively p rfowles or p wverity the sys admins at the same node are probably a better idea than the operator benedikt
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes deletion certainly it is a central aspect of islam to show mercy and to give those who ve done wrong even presuming rushdie did violate islamic law and committed crimes this was the basis for my posts regarding leniency which seemed not to have penetrated benedikt s skull you have demanded harsh punishments of several crimes repeating offenders have slipped in only as justification of harsh punishment at all typically religious doublespeak whenever you have contradictory statements you choose the possibility that suits your current argument it is disgusting that someone with ideas that would make theodore kkkaldis feel cozy can go along under the protection of religion gregg tell us would you kill idolaters benedikt
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes and it is he god almighty who created the night and the day and the sun and the earth all the celetial bodies swim along each in its rounded course holy quran hmm this agrees with the ptolemic system of the earth at the centre with the planets orbitting round it so copernicus and gallileo were wrong after all you haven t read very carefully if you look again you will see that it doesn t say anything about what is circling what anyway they are not moving in circles nor is there any evidence that everything goes around in a rounded course in a general sense wishy washy statements are not scientific benedikt
alt.atheism	re wholly babble was re free moral agency in article p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes deletion of course there is also the book of the subgenius and that whole collection of writings as well does someone know a ftp site with it benedikt
comp.graphics	call for presentations navy sciviz vr seminar call for presentations navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar tuesday june carderock division naval surface warfare center formerly the david taylor research center bethesda maryland sponsor ness navy engineering software system is sponsoring a one day navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar the purpose of the seminar is to present and exchange information for navy related scientific visualization and virtual reality programs research developments and applications presentations presentations are solicited on all aspects of navy related scientific visualization and virtual reality all current work works in progress and proposed work by navy organizations will be considered four types of presentations are available regular presentation minutes in length short presentation minutes in length video presentation a stand alone videotape author need not attend the seminar scientific visualization or virtual reality demonstration byoh accepted presentations will not be published in any proceedings however viewgraphs and other materials will be reproduced for seminar attendees abstracts authors should submit a one page abstract and or videotape to robert lipman naval surface warfare center carderock division code bethesda maryland voice fax e mail lipman oasys dt navy mil authors should include the type of presentation their affiliations addresses telephone and fax numbers and addresses multi author papers should designate one point of contact deadlines the abstact submission deadline is april notification of acceptance will be sent by may materials for reproduction must be received by june for further information contact robert lipman at the above address please distribute as widely as possible thanks robert lipman internet lipman oasys dt navy mil david taylor model basin cdnswc or lip ocean dt navy mil computational signatures and voicenet structures group code factsnet bethesda maryland phishnet stockings long legs the sixth sick shiek s sixth sheep s sick
comp.graphics	graphical representation of vector valued functions gnuplot etc make it easy to plot real valued functions of variables but i want to plot functions whose values are vectors i have been doing this by plotting arrays of arrows complete with arrowheads but before going further i thought i would ask whether someone has already done the work any pointers thanx in advance tom weston usenet weston ucssun sdsu edu department of philosophy office san diego state univ home san diego ca
comp.graphics	re dmorph in article apr usl edu jna ucs usl edu armstrong jay n writes can someone please tell me where i can ftp dta or dmorph dmorf dave s morph i think is what it means and dtax dave s tga assembler are available in the msdos uploads directory on the wuarchive they are arjed and bundled with their respective xmemory versions dmorfx exe and dtax exe you can also find a version of aaplay exe there with which you can view files you create with dta exe or dtax exe i downloaded the whole bunch last week and have been morphing away the afternoons since the programmes are all a bit buggy and definitely not ready to spread to the masses but they are very well written the interface is frustrating at first but it gets easy once you figure out the tricks i have noticed that dmorfx will crash horribly if you try to morph without using the splines option not sure why since i don t have the source i think it was written for tp if anyone else comes up with any other hints on getting the thing to work right tell me it took me several hours the first time just to figure out that if i just used the durned splines then it would work jna jna usl edu ryan rap cis ufl edu
comp.graphics	voice input vendor information needed hello i am looking to add voice input capability to a user interface i am developing on an hp unix workstation i would greatly appreciate information anyone would care to offer about voice input systems that are easily accessible from the unix environment the names or adresses of applicable vendors as well as any experiences you have had with specific systems would be very helpful please respond via email i will post a summary if there is sufficient interest thanks ken p s i have found several impressive systems for ibm pc s but i would like to avoid the hassle of purchasing and maintaining a separate pc if at all possible ken hinckley kph q virginia edu university of virginia neurosurgical visualization laboratory
comp.graphics	where can i find sipp i recently got a file describing a library of rendering routines called sipp simple polygon processor could anyone tell me where i can ftp the source code and which is the newest version around also i ve never used renderman so i was wondering if renderman is like sipp ie a library of rendering routines which one uses to make a program that creates the image thanks joe tham joe tham joth ersys edmonton ab ca
comp.graphics	re million vs thousand colors d hh dtek chalmers se henrik harmsen writes bits per r g b gives horrible machbanding visible in almost any picture bits per r g b colors gives visible machbanding color gradient picture has almost no machbanding this color resolution is see some small machbanding on the smooth color gradient picture but all in all there are situiations where you get visible mach banding even in a bit card if you create a very smooth color gradient of dark green white yellow or something and turn up the contrast on the monitor you will probably see some mach banding while i don t mean to damn henrik s attempt to be helpful here he s using a common misconception that should be corrected mach banding will occur for any image it is not the color quantization you see when you don t have enough bits it is the human eye s response to transitions or edges between intensities the result is that colors near the transistion look brighter on the brighter side and darker on the darker side andre andre yew andrey cco caltech edu
comp.graphics	translating tttddd to dxf or swiv d i am a mac user when it comes to graphics that s what i own software and hardware for and i ve recently come across a large number of tttddd format modeling databases is there any software mac or unix for translating those to something i could use like dxf please reply via email thanx eric oehler oehler picard cs wisc edu
comp.graphics	help on renderman language wanted hello everybody if you are using pixar s renderman d scene description language for creating d worlds please help me i m using renderman library on my next but there is no documentation about nextstep version of renderman available i can create very complicated scenes and render them using surface shaders but i can not bring them to life by applying shadows and reflections as far as i understand i have to define environmental and shadows maps to produce reflections and shadows but i do not know how to use them any advises or simple rib or c examples will be appreciated thanks in advance alex kolesov moscow russia talus imaging communications corporation e mail alex talus msk su next mail accepted
comp.graphics	re more gray levels out of the screen in article pp t cc tut fi jk lehtori cc tut fi kouhia juhana writes in article apr kpc com hollasch kpc com steve hollasch writes i think you re proposal would work to get an extra one maybe two extra bits of color resolution however if you had a display that chould do only zero or full intensity for each primary i don t think you d get great equivalent bit photographs i have not suggested to do so i wrote about problems and the problem were clearly visible with bit b w images not to mention bit images description of experiment deleted if the bit images are viewed quickly and in sync with screen then intensities could be better than we have i dunno more deleted in any case getting black color with slow machines is problem i could try it on our bit screens but i don t know how to render pixels with x in constant time i recall our double buffer has other image color and one b w that doesn t help either maybe i should dump photos to screen with low level code how a few years ago a friend and i took some grey level photos from a bit mac plus screen using this method displaying all levels synchronized to the hz display took about seconds after experimenting with different aperture settings and screen brightnesses we found a range that worked well giving respectable contrast the quality of the images was pretty good there were no visible contrast bands to minimize the exposure time the display program built different bit frames the first contained a dot only for pixels that had value the second only for pixels that had value etc these frames were stored using a sparse data structure that was very fast to or onto the screen in sequence creating these frames sometimes took minutes on that old mac but the camera shutter was closed during that time anyway and yes we wrote directly to the screen memory mea culpa our biggest problem was that small images were displayed in the top left corner of the screen instead of the center it took an extra week to have the film developed and printed because the processors took the trouble to manually move the all images into the center of the print who d have guessed regards jon rowlands
comp.graphics	re more gray levels out of the screen in article c c r btg csc ti com rowlands hc ti com jon rowlands writes a few years ago a friend and i took some grey level photos from a bit mac plus screen using this method displaying all levels synchronized to the hz display took about seconds why didn t you create grey level images and display them for time slices this requires the same total exposure time and the same precision in timing but drastically reduces the image preparation time no kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan cis uab edu university of alabama at birmingham a campbell hall uab station fax birmingham al
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article h p s g zola esd sgi com erik westworld esd sgi com erik fortune writes better than cdi much better than cdi of course i do not agree it does have more horsepower horsepower is not the only measurement for better it does not have full motion full screen video yet does it have cd rom xa starting in the quarter of the first do multiplayer will be manufactured by panasonic and will be available late this year a number of other manufacturers are reported to have do compatible boxes in the works which other manufacturers we shall see about the date all this information is third hand or so and worth what you paid for it this is second hand but it still hard to look to the future lex van sonderen lex aimla com philips interactive media
comp.graphics	visuallib d graphics for windows i am currently looking for a d graphics library that runs on ms windows are there any such libraries out there other than visuallib it must run on vga and should not require any other add on graphics cards for visuallib will it run with metaware high c compiler v any email contact for the author of visuallib any help would be much appreciated thanks chua teck joo information technology institute email teckjoo iti gov sg science park drive phone singapore fax
comp.graphics	graphics library package hi all i am looking for a recommandation on a good royalty free graphics library package for c and c program this is mainly use to write children games and education software i heard someone mentioned genus and also gfx are they any good please pardon me if my question sounds a little strange i am asking this question for a friend thanks in advance caroline tsang cst garfield catt ncsu edu
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article c eyz ix optimla aimla com lex optimla aimla com lex van sonderen writes in article h p s g zola esd sgi com erik westworld esd sgi com erik fortune writes better than cdi much better than cdi of course i do not agree it does have more horsepower horsepower is not the only measurement for better it does not have full motion full screen video yet does it have cd rom xa starting in the quarter of the first do multiplayer will be manufactured by panasonic and will be available late this year a number of other manufacturers are reported to have do compatible boxes in the works which other manufacturers we shall see about the date a do marketing rep recently offered a phillips marketing rep a bet that do would have boxes on the market on schedule the phillips rep declined the bet probably because he knew that do players are already in pre production manufacturing runs months before the commercial release date by the time of commercial release there will be other manufacturers of do players announced and possibly already tooling up production chip sets will be in full production the number of software companies designing titles for the box will be over how do i know this i was at a bar down the road from do headquarters last week some folks were bullshitting a little too loudly about company business all this information is third hand or so and worth what you paid for it this is second hand but it still hard to look to the future lex van sonderen lex aimla com philips interactive media what an impartial source
comp.graphics	re graphics library package 
comp.graphics	wanted sird alogorythmn hi i m interested in writing a program to generate a sird picture you know the stereogram where you cross your eyes and the picture becomes d does anyone have one or know where i can get one please e mail to steveq sndcrft dialix oz au with any replies many thanks for your help steve q
comp.graphics	any graphics packages available for aix does anybody know if there are any good d graphics packages available for ibm rs aix i m looking for something like dec s gks or hewlett packards starbase both of which have reasonably good support for different output devices like plotters terminals x etc i have tried also xgks from x distribution and ibm s implementation of phigs both of them work but we require more output devices than just x windows our salesman at ibm was not very familiar with graphics and i am not expecting for any good solutions from there ari ari suutari ari carel fi carelcomp oy lappeenranta finland
comp.graphics	re bw hardcopy of colored window mars ixos de martin stein writes i use xwd xpr from the x r dist and various programs of the ppm tools to print hardcopies of colored x windows my problem is i don t like xpr it gives at least the x r version does louzy output the hardcopy looks very grainy to me instead i use pnmtops this takes full advantage postscript and lets the printer do the dirty job of dithering a graylevel image to black and white dots so if you have a postscript printer try xwdtopnm xwdfile convert to ppm ppmtopgm to graylevel for smaller file to print pnmtops noturn to postscript lpr print pnmtops has several neat options but use them with care if you want your image to be wide use pnmtops noturn scale width noturn prevents the image from being rotated if it is wider than it is high width specifies the paper width not the image width see below scale is used because if the image is small it may fit within a width less than and will thus be printed smaller than wide if you first scale it up a lot it will certainly not fit in and will be scaled down by pnmtops automatically to fit the specified paper width in short pnmtops will scale an image down to fit the paper size but it will not blow it up automatically hope this helps marcel x marcel wijkstra aio wijkstra fwi uva nl x faculty of mathematics and computer science x university of amsterdam the netherlands life stinks fortunately i ve got a cold
comp.graphics	re more gray levels out of the screen in article apr cis uab edu sloan cis uab edu kenneth sloan writes why didn t you create grey level images and display them for time slices by grey level images you mean items of bit images it does work but it doesn t work if you have more than bit in your screen and if the screen intensity is non linear with bit per pixel there could be c c timing this gives levels but they are linear if screen intensity is linear with c c it works but we have to find the best compinations there s levels but choises best must be chosen different compinations for the same level varies a bit but the levels keeps their order readers should verify what i wrote juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	looking for ctds i can t find ctds connect the dots smoother in france if it is a commercial program i ll happily pay whatever it may cost do not take it litterally please help i have lots of pov sources texture images and animations though if you are looking for something just tell
comp.graphics	re pov previewer actually i am trying to write something like this but i encounter some problems amongst them drawing a d wireframe view of a quadric quartic requires that you have the explicit equation of the quadric quartic x y z functions of some parameters how to convert the implicit equation used by pov to an explicit one is it mathematically always possible i don t have enough math to find out by myself has anybody heard about useful books on the subject
comp.graphics	re real time graphics in article c va r kk taurus cs nps navy mil stockel oahu oc nps navy mil jim stockel writes hi i will be writing a data acquisition program to collect data from a variety of sources including rs and external a d s and i would like to be able to display the data in near realtime i ve done this type of thing on pc s and other machines but i am unaware of any graphics package that could help me with this on a unix machine does anyone have any ideas on commercial or free packages that might suit my needs i would really appreciate any input i m sure this has been done many times before for a commerical package try wave from precision visuals for a free package try khoros from university of new mexico ftp from ptrg eece unm edu login in anonyomus or ftp with a valid email address as the password cd pub khoros release that will get you to the right place david
comp.graphics	bgi drivers for svga i require bgi drivers for super vga displays and super xvga displays does anyone know where i could obtain the relevant drivers ftp sites regards simon crowe
comp.graphics	re vesa on the speedstar kjb mgl uvesa zip this is a universal vesa driver it supports most video boards chipsets include the speedstar and x up to bit color terry p s i ve tried it on a speedstar and x and it works not with all software for instance it doesn t work at all with animator pro from autodesk it can t detect any svga modes when running univesa this is really a problem as we need a vesa driver for both aa pro and some hi color stuff just out of curiosity are you using the latest version versions previous to this did not fill in all of the capabilities bits and other information correctly i had problems with a lot of software until i got this version i don t think the author got around to posting an announcementof it or at least i missed it but was available in the directory indicated as of i sure did use version it works fine with most software but not with animator pro and that one is quite important to me pretty useless program without that thing working imho so i hope the author can fix that daniel daniel falk don t quote me no comments ebenezum the great wizard d fad tekn hj se d fad hjds hj se also known as the mega famous musician jkpg sweeeeeden leinad of the yellow ones
comp.graphics	none set bear with me i m new at this game but could anyone explain exactly what dmorf does does it simply fade one bitmap into another or does it re shape one bitma p into another please excuse my ignorance i not even sure if i ve posted thi s message correctly
comp.graphics	help wanted for dmorf please bear with me as i am new at this game i apologize unreservedly if i hav e posted another message earlier by mistake but i digress could anyone out th ere please explain exactly what dmorf does dtax exe does it simply fade one bitmap into another or does it reshape one bitmap into another excuse my ignor ance
comp.graphics	test sorry 
comp.graphics	re rumours about do they need a hit software product to encourage software sales of the product i e the pong pacman visicalc dbase or pagemaker of multi media there are some multi media and digital television products out there already albeit not as capable as do s but are there compelling reasons to buy such yet perhaps someone in this news group will write that hit software
comp.graphics	technical help sought hi i am in immediate need for details of various graphics compression techniques so if you know where i could obtain descriptions of algo rithms or public domain source codes for such formats as jpeg gif and fractals i would be immensely grateful if you could share the info with me this is for a project i am contemplating of doing thanks in advance please reply via e mail if possible hbj
comp.graphics	surface normal orientations some rendering programs require that all surface normals point in the same direction ie on a closed cube all normals point outwards you can use the points on the faces to determine the direction of the normal by making sure that all points are either in clockwise or counter clockwise order how do you go about orienting all normals in the same direction given a set of points edges and faces say that you had a cube with all faces that have their normals facing outwards except for one face what s the best way to realize that face is flipped and should have it s points re ordered i thought i had a good way of telling this but then realized that the algorithm i had would only tell you if you had points in clockwise order for a d polygon i d like something for d data any hints tips references would be appreciated steve where humor is concerned there are no standards no one can say what is good or bad although you can be sure that everyone will john kenneth galbraith these opinions are my own
comp.graphics	re graphics library package wgt is the wordup graphics toolkit designed by yours truly and my co programmer and brother chris egerter it is a turbo borland c graphics library for programming in vga we are currently producing it as shareware but in a few years it may be a commercial product excuse typos there s no backspace on this terminal features include loading and saving bit images called blocks from herein flipping resizing and warping blocks loading and saving palette fading several in memory at once graphics primitives such as line circle bar rectangle region fill not the usually useless floodfill sprites animated bitmaps up to onscreen at once joystick mouse support sb support voc and cmf tile based game creation using pixel tiles to create a tile map or game world like in duke nuke em number of sprites increased to professional sprite creator utility and map maker routines to simplify scrolling games using maps etc fli playing routines sprites can be animated over the fli while playing pcx support soon gif ems xms coming soon as well leave e mail to barry egerter at egerter obelix gaul csd uwo ca files available on use mget wgt zip simtel and mirrors pd msdos turbo c nic funet fi pub msdos games programming some sites may not have recent files contact me for info regarding the up to date information
comp.graphics	re signature image database contact signaware corp original memo bcc vincent wall from imaging club subject signature verification date sent sci image processing from yyqi ece arizona edu yingyong qi subject signature image database organization u of arizona electrical and computer engineering hi all could someone tell me if there is a database of handwriting signature images available for evaluating signature verification systems thanks yy
comp.graphics	re surface normal orientations in article apr cis uab edu sloan cis uab edu kenneth sloan writes a brilliant algorithm not seriously it s correct up to a sign change the flaw is obvious and will therefore not be shown sorry about that kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan cis uab edu university of alabama at birmingham a campbell hall uab station fax birmingham al
comp.graphics	re genoa blitz hits x x ni i am sorry but this genoa card does nothing that the ati ultra plus mb can t do plus the ati costs us street price
comp.graphics	re surface normal orientations in article pscti aqe travis csd harris com srp travis csd harris com stephen pietrowicz writes how do you go about orienting all normals in the same direction given a set of points edges and faces look for edge inconsistencies consider two vertices p and q which are connected by at least one edge if p q is an edge then q p should not appear if both p q and q p appear as edges then the surface flips when you travel across that edge this is bad assuming warning warning warning that you have an otherwise acceptable surface you can pick an edge any edge and traverse the surface enforcing consistency with that edge pick an edge p q and mark it as ok for each face f containing this edge if more than oops make sure that all edges in f are consistent i e the face should be p q q r r s s t t p flip those which are wrong mark all of the edges in f as ok and add them to a queue check for duplicates and especially inconsistencies don t let the queue have both p q and q p remove an edge from the queue and go to if a marked edge is discovered to be inconsistent then you lose if step finds more than one face sharing a particular edge then you lose otherwise when done all of the edges will be consistent which means that all of the surface normals will either point in or out deciding which way is out is left as an exercise kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan cis uab edu university of alabama at birmingham a campbell hall uab station fax birmingham al
comp.graphics	re surface normal orientations in pscti aqe travis csd harris com srp travis csd harris com stephen pietrowicz writes how do you go about orienting all normals in the same direction given a set of points edges and faces this algorithm works well for me algorithm to attempt to find outward facing normals first mark all faces as unknown then create an edge dictionary that allows you to find all of the faces sharing a given edge where an edge is two integers representing the two shared vertices pick an arbitrary face and mark it counter clockwise using the edge dictionary orient all surrounding faces based on the orientation of this face and recurse for all surrounding faces consistently orienting the entire surface find the average of the vertices in this surface using that point calculate a volume measurement taking into account the face s orientation if the volume turns out to be positive assume the faces are oriented correctly if it is negative reverse their orientations mark them clockwise if any faces are still unknown after this choose another face and go through the algorithm again at the end faces marked clockwise must have their indices reversed before facet normals are found note if you are running on silicon graphics machines and buy the iris inventor d toolkit developers package you have the source to this algorithm see usr src inventor tools ivnorm if you re not sorry i can t give out the source and even if i could it relies heavily on inventor gavin gavin sgi com
comp.graphics	re million vs thousand colors andrey cco caltech edu andre t yew writes d hh dtek chalmers se henrik harmsen writes bits per r g b gives horrible machbanding visible in almost any picture bits per r g b colors gives visible machbanding color gradient picture has almost no machbanding this color resolution is see some small machbanding on the smooth color gradient picture but all in all there are situiations where you get visible mach banding even in a bit card if you create a very smooth color gradient of dark green white yellow or something and turn up the contrast on the monitor you will probably see some mach banding while i don t mean to damn henrik s attempt to be helpful here he s using a common misconception that should be corrected mach banding will occur for any image it is not the color quantization you see when you don t have enough bits it is the human eye s response to transitions or edges between intensities the result is that colors near the transistion look brighter on the brighter side and darker on the darker side andre yeah of course the term mach banding was not the correct one it should ve been color quantization effect although a bad color quantization effect could result in some visible mach bands on a picture that was smooth before it was quantizised henrik harmsen internet d hh dtek chalmers se chalmers university of technology sweden i haven t lost my mind it s backed up on tape somewhere
comp.graphics	re real time graphics in article apr falcon aamrl wpafb af mil dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb af mil writes in article c va r kk taurus cs nps navy mil stockel oahu oc nps navy mil jim stockel writes hi opps typed in the phone numbers wrong here are the correct numbers for a commerical package try wave from precision visuals for a free package try khoros from university of new mexico ftp from ptrg eece unm edu login in anonyomus or ftp with a valid email address as the password cd pub khoros release
comp.graphics	iges viewer for dos windows anybody know of an iges viewer for dos windows i need to be able to display computervision iges files on a pc running windows thanks in advance brian h safford email bsaffo cad gmeds com electronic data systems phone note the views and opinions expressed herein are mine and do not reflect those of electronic data systems corp
comp.graphics	computer graphics to vcr help my friend and i have a class project in which we are trying to make a computer animated movie of sorts with the disney animation and would like to put what we have on a vcr is this possible is it easy and relatively cheap if so how we both have ibm compatibles but are relatively clueless with computers if you could help please do thanx brant ritter moshing a cosmic cesspool of physical delight a kiedas rhcp
comp.graphics	stereoscopic imaging i am interested in any information on stereoscopic imaging on a sun workstation for the most part i need to know if there is any hardware available to interface the system and whether the refresh rates are sufficient to produce quality image representations any information about the subject would be greatly appreciated thanks
comp.graphics	re fractals what good are they in article pdxgate uucp idr rigel cs pdx edu ian d romanick writes one thing a small change in initial conditions can cause a huge change in final conditions there are certain things about the way the plate tektoniks and volcanic activity effect a land scape that is while not entirely random unpredictable this is also true with fractals so one could also conclude that you could model this fractally yeah and it s also true most long complicated sequences of events calculations or big computer programs in general i don t argue that you can get similar and maybe useful results from fractals i just question whether you should the fractal fiends seem to be saying that any part of a system that we can t model should be replaced with a random number generator that has been useful for instance in making data more palatable to human perception or for torture testing the rest of the system but i don t think it has much to do with fractals and i certainly would rather that the model be improved in a more explicable manner i guess i just haven t seen all these earth shaking fractal models that explain and correlate to the universe as it actually exists i really hope i do but i m not holding my self similar breath there is one other thing that fractals are good for fractal image compression uh huh i ll believe it when i see it i ve been chasing fractal compression for a few years and i still don t believe in it if it s so great how come we don t see it competing with jpeg cause it can t i ll wager actually i have wagered i quit trying to make fractal compression work and i was trying because i don t think it s a reasonable alternative to other techniques it is neat though i ll reiterate my disbelief that everything is fractal that s why i don t think fractal compression as it is widely explained is practical i know barnsley and sloan have some tricks up their sleeves that make their demos work but i don t see anyone using it in a real product it s been six years since iterated systems was formed right there are always going to be questions until there s a product out there sloan replies the company plans to ship its first encoding devices in the summer he says in march iterated systems will have the other half of the system the decoders scientific american march page allen b don t even get me started
comp.graphics	complex i e with real and imaginary parts bio medical images are complex bio medical images available anywhere on the net for experimentation by complex i mean that every sampled data point has a magnitude and phase information both thanks for any pointers vishwa
comp.graphics	mpeg for ms dos does anyone know where i can ftp mpeg for dos from thanks for any help in advance email is preferred but posting is fine scott lord soth knight email to lordsoth uiuc of the black rose next to sas sumter cso uiuc edu i have no clue what i want to say in here so i won t say anything
comp.graphics	help i need a complete list of all the polygons that there are in order i ll summarize to the net if only i had been compiled with the g option
comp.graphics	re help colors display in c you ll probably have to set the palette up before you try drawing in the new colours use the bios interrupt calls to set the r g b values in the range from for most cards for a particular palette colour in the range from for colour modes then you should be able to draw pixels in those palette values and the result should be ok you might have to do a bit of colourmap compressing if you have more than unique rgb triplets for a colour mode geoff thomas geoffrey cosc canterbury ac nz computer science dept university of canterbury private bag christchurch oook new zealand
comp.graphics	re rumours about do stgprao st unocal com richard ottolini writes they need a hit software product to encourage software sales of the product i e the pong pacman visicalc dbase or pagemaker of multi media there are some multi media and digital television products out there already albeit not as capable as do s but are there compelling reasons to buy such yet perhaps someone in this news group will write that hit software i ve just had the good fortune to be hired by electronic arts as senior computer graphics artist at the vancouver canada office the timing has a lot to do with the do which ea is putting a lot of resources into i do not know of any titles to be developed as yet but will be happy to post as things develop i start there may markus tessmann
comp.graphics	re quicktime movie available in article johnsh mustang stu rpi edu i wrote i ve used the recently released macintosh application mpeg to quicktime to convert the excellent mpeg canyon mpg into a quicktime movie while anyone who would want this movie is perfectly able to convert it themselves i thought i d let the net know that i d be glad to mail copies of mine out the movie conversion took close to six hours on my poor little iicx in other words unless you ve got a quadra you might not want to tie up your machine in converting this file the movie is a fast fly through of a fractal generated canyon landscape the movie is seconds long and uses the compact video compressor i e quicktime v the movie looks okay on bit displays and looks absolutely awesome on and bit displays i d be happy to mail this movie to the first or so people who ask for it the only caveat is you need to be able to receive a nine megabyte mail message the movie was stuff it ed down to seven megs but binhex ruined that party if more then people want this movie then it s just more evidence that the net needs a dedicated quicktime ftp archive site c mon someone s gotta have a spare gb drive out there okay i ve received a whole lot of requests for the movie so for simplicity s sake i can t mail out any more than i ve already received as of edt tuesday maybe it ll pop up on a site sooner or later hugh johnson johnsh rpi edu rensselaer polytechnic institute welcome to macintosh troy new york usa
comp.graphics	qc msc code to view save images dear binary newsers i am looking for quick c or microsoft c code for image decoding from file for vga viewing and saving images from to gif tiff pcx or jpeg format i have scoured the internet but its like trying to find a dr seuss spell checker tsr it must be out there and there s no need to reinvent the wheel thanx in advance the internet is like a black hole
comp.graphics	autocad tiff can it be done hello i realize that this might be a faq but i have to ask since i don t get a change to read this newsgroup very often anyways for my senior project i need to convert an autocad file to a tiff file please i don t need anyone telling me that the autocad file is a vector file and the tiff is a bit map since i have heard that about times already i would just like to know if anyone knows how to do this or at least point me to the right direction any help greatly appreciated matt georgy
comp.graphics	gamma law correction hi i am digitizing a ntsc signal and displaying on a pc video monitor it is known that the display response of tubes is non linear and is sometimes said to follow gamma law i am not certain if these non linearities are gamma corrected before encoding ntsc signals or if the tv display is supposed to correct this also if grey levels for example are coded in a c program do these intensity levels appear with linear brightness on a pc monitor in other words does pc monitor display circuitry correct for gamma errrors your response is much appreciated amjad amjad soomro ccs computer science center u of maryland at college park email amjad wam umd edu
comp.graphics	mpeg for x windows mono needed hello and thank you for reading this request i have a mpeg viewer for x windows and it did not run because i was running it on a monochrome monitor i need the mono driver for mpeg play please post the location of the file or better yet e mail me at mlee eng sdsu edu
comp.graphics	re thining algorithm in article q innmi shelley u washington edu kshin stein u washington edu kevin shin writes i am trying obtain program to preprocess handwriting characters like thining algorithm graph alogrithm do anyone know where i can obtain those i usually use algorithms for graphics and image processing by theodosios pavlidis but other people here got them same idea and now of copies in the libraries have been stolen another reference is digital image processing by gonzalez and wintz wood which is widely available but a little expensive here i just checked today ab
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of in article apr galki toppoint de ulrich galki toppoint de writes according to the tiff specification the tiff version number bytes has been chosen for its deep philosophical significance last week i read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy is this actually how they picked the number i m sure it is and i am not amused every time i read that part of the tiff spec it infuriates me and i m none too happy about the complexity of the spec anyway because i think their arbitrary but carefully chosen number is neither additionally i find their choice of bytes to begin a file with meaningless of themselves why not just use the letters tiff and no i don t think they should have bothered to support both word orders either and i ve found that many tiff readers actually don t ab
comp.graphics	re vga x graphics mode gchen essex ecn uoknor edu writes in article c doh ai constellation ecn uoknor edu greetings does anybody know if it is possible to set vga graphics mode to x instead of x any info is appreciated some vesa bios s support this mode x and any vga should be able to support this x by colors since it only requires bytes my a vesa tsr supports this it s the only vesa mode by card can support due to a restrictions a wd paradise i am not responsible for anything i do or say i m just an opinion robert j c kyanko rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	re weitek p abraxis iastate edu writes in article abraxis class iastate edu anyone know about the weitek p graphics chip micron is selling it with their systems they rank them at winmarks any info would help thanks it s supposedly a high performance chip based upon workstation graphics accelerators it s quite fast i have but as usual with new boards chips the drivers are buggy for windows as far as winmarks go it depends upon the version i think i got m winmarks with version yielded the number i ve also benchmarked this with wintach at over from memory as well as far as the low level stuff goes it looks pretty nice it s got this quadrilateral fill command that requires just the four points it s very fast but beware of buggy drivers and otherwise no non windows support i am not responsible for anything i do or say i m just an opinion robert j c kyanko rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	re delaunay triangulation in article lsk v inn c caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes does anybody know what delaunay triangulation is is there any reference to it is it useful for creating d objects if yes what s the advantage it is used to create a tin triangulated irregular network which is basically a bunch of triangles which form a surface over a group of points what is special about it is that the triangles formed are the most equalateral possible check out proceedings of autocarto n where n is sorry i don t have a specific reference describing the process michael
comp.graphics	graphic formats i am writing some utilies to convert regis and tektonic esacpe sequences into some useful formats i would rather not have to goto a bitmap format i can convert them to window meta files easily enough but i would rather convert them to corel draw cdr or ms power point ppt files microsoft would not give me the format i was wondering if anybody out there knows the formats for these two applications
comp.graphics	re nice gif code there is a thing called xgif xgif is the grandfather of xv
comp.graphics	re rumours about do archer archer bad cop surly archer elysium esd sgi com archer how about interactive sex with madonna or sexium for short lars lars fischer fischer iesd auc dk it takes an uncommon mind to think of cs dept aalborg univ denmark these things calvin
comp.graphics	re forms for curses note the followup to header steelem rintintin colorado edu steele mark a writes is there a collection of forms routines that can be used with curses if so where is it located on my svr amiga unix box i ve got lform lmenu and lpanel for use with the curses library guess what they provide unix press ie prentice hall has a programmer s guide for these tools referred to as the fmli forms mgmt language interface and eti extended terminal interface now in it s nd edition it is isbn paraphrased from the outside back cover fmli is a high level programming tool for creating menus forms and text frames eti is a set of screen management library subroutines that promote fast development of application programs for window panel menu and form manipulation the fmli is a shell package which reads ascii text files and produces screen displays for data entry and presentation it consists of a shell like environment of the fmli program and it s database files it is section f in the unix press manual the eti are subroutines part of the x manual section provide support for a multi window capability on an ordinary ascii terminal with controls built on top of the curses library thanks mark steele steelem rintintin colorado edu frank crash edwards edwards edwards consulting voice crash ckctpa myrddin sybus com but please data don t ask uunet to route it it s sloooow there will be times in life when everyone you meet smiles and pats you on the back and tells you how great you are so hold on to your wallet
comp.graphics	re trying to view pov files merkelbd sage cc purdue edu brian merkel writes in article apr ornl gov ednobles sacam oren ortn edu edward d nobles writes i ve been trying to view tga files created in povray i have the diamond speedstar video board not the x so far i can convert them to jpeg using cjpeg and view them with cview but that only displays bit color i m looking for some way to convert and or view them in bit i have univesa uvesa zip and the dvpeg viewer but i don t get anything perhaps i am not setting up univesa properly if anyone has ideas about this please feel free to enlighten me just want to see the darn things in real color image alchemy aka alchemy will view the tga files that pov outputs and just about any other format you can think of it will also convert between all these it s shareware so it s probably available by ftp somwhere out there in netland yep alchemy works fine on my tseng dac but i think i remember reading that it only displays in bit or so of course that s still k colors which is nothing to sneeze at use the v flag neal miller why not go mad millernw craft camp clarkson edu clarkson university ford prefect dark craft camp clarkson edu
comp.graphics	hot new d software there is a new product for the ibm ers out there it is called imagine and it just started shipping yesterday i can personally attest that it will blow the doors off of d studio it is made by impulse and is in its rd version st for the ibm it can do morphing your standard key framming animation it is a raytracer reflections shadows and can do apply special fx to objects like ripple explode bounce things of that nature also it has algorithmic texture maps and your standard brushmapping also you can have animated brushmaps ie live video mapped on the objs also animated backdrops ie live video backgrounds also animted reflections maps you get the idea it will run for about retail i think dont let the low price fool you this product can do it all when it comes to d animation and renderering also does anyone here know how to get in the imagine mailing list please e mail me if you do or post up here oh the number for impulse is trb ra msstate edu
comp.graphics	re hot new d software in a previous article trb ra msstate edu tony r boutwell says there is a new product for the ibm ers out there it is called imagine and it just started shipping yesterday i can personally attest that it will blow the doors off of d studio it is made by impulse and is in its well i don t know about its competing with d studio but it s pretty powerful allright also does anyone here know how to get in the imagine mailing list please e mail me if you do or post up here yes send e mail to imagine request email sp paramax com with a header of something like subscribe i actually work on the faq frequently asked questions we should have the new version out of it by next week but if you want i could e mail you the previous one it details what the list is etc as well as answering basic questions about imagine hope this helps michael b comet software engineer graphics artist cwru mbc po cwru edu silence those who oppose the freedom of speech
comp.graphics	re vga x graphics mode in article snx rjck uucp rob rjck uucp robert j c kyanko writes gchen essex ecn uoknor edu writes in article c doh ai constellation ecn uoknor edu greetings does anybody know if it is possible to set vga graphics mode to x instead of x any info is appreciated some vesa bios s support this mode x and any vga should be able to support this x by colors since it only requires bytes my a vesa tsr supports this it s the only vesa mode by card can support due to a restrictions a wd paradise i am not responsible for anything i do or say i m just an opinion robert j c kyanko rob rjck uucp ahh no possibly you punched in the wrong numbers on your calculator color modes take a byte per pixel so time is which is k to be exact x x only takes k but i don t think it is a bios mode i wouldn t bet that all vga cards can do that either if a vga card has k i bet it can do both x and x that by definition is svga though not very high svga
comp.graphics	tin files coutours hi i am working on a project that needs to create contour lines from random data points the work that i have done so far tells me that i need to look into triangulated irregular networks tin the delauney criiterion and the krige method does anyone have any suggestions for references programs and hopefully source code for creating contours any help with this or any surface modeling would be greatly appreciated i can be reached at the addresses below paul conway pvconway copper denver colorado edu pvconway cudnvr denver colorado edu
comp.graphics	apr toronto siggraph event toronto siggraph what chance s art d graphics and animation on the indigo by ken evans imagicians artware inc when tuesday april pm pm where the mcluhan centre for culture and technology university of toronto a queen s park crescent toronto who members and non members alike non members encouraged to become members abstract imagicians artware inc is entering into early beta site testing on silicon graphics workstations of a new d abstract artwork and animation package called chance s art the package will be described and demonstrated and some of the technical issues will be discussed marketing plans will be outlined the talk will also present some of the technical and business problems increasingly confronting small startup software companies today and some of the opportunities this situation presents time after the event will be allocated for hands on demonstrations to interested parties silicon graphics is graciously providing an indigo for this event myck kupka will also be demonstrating his computerized interactive reflective stereoscope which is installed upstairs in the mcluhan centre so feel free to drop by for a demonstration before or after the event btw be sure to sing happy birthday myck the names of nominees for our siggraph executive offices will be announced at this meeting nominations will still be open until the election at our may th event call myck kupka at or fax to directions the mcluhan coachhouse is on the east side of queen s park crescent just north of wellesley south of st joseph st behind east of queen s park crescent which is the centre for mediaeval studies for information on toronto siggraph membership contact michael mccool via internet mccool dgp utoronto ca voice fax
comp.graphics	re delaunay triangulation zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes does anybody know what delaunay triangulation is is there any reference to it the delaunay triangulation is the geometrical dual of the voronoi tessellation and both constructions are derived from natural neighbor order aurenhammer f voronoi diagrams a survey of a fundamental geometric data structure acm computing surveys p okabe a boots b and sugihara k spatial tessellations concepts and applications of voronoi diagrams wiley sons new york isbn p watson d f computing the n dimensional delaunay tessellation with application to voronoi polytopes the computer j p watson d f natural neighbour sorting the australian computer j p dave watson internet watson maths uwa edu au department of mathematics the university of western australia tel nedlands wa australia fax
comp.graphics	ansi aiim ms standard image file format wing the suggestion of stu lynne i have posted the image file format executable and source code to alt sources herman silbiger
comp.graphics	re trying to view pov files in article apr ornl gov ednobles sacam oren ortn edu edward d nobles writes i ve been trying to view tga files created in povray i have the diamond speedstar video board not the x so far i can convert them to jpeg using cjpeg and view them with cview but that only displays bit color i m looking for some way to convert and or view them in bit just want to see the darn things in real color thanks jim nobles the best program i ve seen for viewing such files is vpic you ll want version or later x is current it allows you to view in and bit modes it really is quite nice now for a return question do you run windows if so what are the dates on your drivers the newest ones i can find are from around my problem is they conflict with star trek after dark and other things as well i m willing to bet that it s the drivers and not the programs anyone out there have info on newer ss not x drivers for windows or os thanks justin
comp.graphics	re looking for circle algorithm faster than bresenhams in article apr nwnexus wa com mpdillon halcyon com michael dillon writes i have an algorithm similar to bresenhams line drawing algorithm that draws a line by stepping along the minor axis and drawing slices like aaaa bbbb cccc in the following diagram aaaa bbbb cccc yes that s known as bresenhams run length slice algorithm for incremental lines see fundamental algorithms for computer graphics springer verlag berlin heidelberg i have tried to extrapolate this to circles but i can t figure out how to determine the length of the slices any ideas hmm i don t think i can help you with this but you might take a look at the following double step incremental generation of lines and circles x wu and j g rokne computer graphics and image processing vol no mar pp double step generation of ellipses x wu and j g rokne ieee computer graphics applications may pp graeme gill
comp.graphics	e mail of michael abrash 
comp.graphics	fonts in pov i have seen several ray traced scenes from mtv or was it rayshade with stroked fonts appearing as objects in the image the fonts chars had color depth and even textures associated with them now i was wondering is it possible to do the same in pov thanks noel
comp.graphics	polygon reduction for marching cubes dear reader i am searching for an implementation of a polygon reduction algorithm for marching cubes surfaces i think the best one is the reduction algorithm from schroeder et al siggraph so is there any implementation of this algorithm it would be very nice if you could leave it to me also i am looking for a fast connectivity test for marching cubes surfaces any help or hints will be very useful thanks a lot o o ooo ooo erwin keeve adress peter welter platz w cologne germany dept of computergraphics phone computeranimation fax academy of media arts cologne email keeve khm uni koeln de
comp.graphics	dmpeg zip info another dos mpeg decoder player posted i have posted a dos mpeg decoder player to alt binaries pictures utilities here is a short description and some technical information taken from the accompanying documentation dmpeg v public domain mpeg decoder by stefan eckart features dmpeg dmplay is another mpeg decoder player for the pc decodes nearly the full mpeg video standard i p b frames frame size up to at least x supported saves decoded sequence in or bit raw file for later display optional on screen display during decoding requires vga several dithering options ordered dither floyd steinberg grayscale color space selection runs under dos kb ram no ms windows required very compact small code small data models bit arithmetic real time display of the raw file by a separate player for vga and many super vgas technical information the player is a rather straightforward implementation of the mpeg spec the idct is based on the chen wang multiplication algorithm not quite the optimum i know blocks with not more than eight non zero coefficients use a non separated direct multiply accumulate d idct sounds great doesn t it which turned out to be faster than a fast algorithm in this quite common case dithering is pretty standard main difference to the berkeley decoder except for the fewer number of supported algorithms is the use of instead of colors the default option to use a restricted color space and the implementation of a color saturation dominant ordered dither this leads to a significantly superior quality of the dithered image i claim judge yourself restricted color space means that the u and v components are clipped to instead of and the display color space points are distributed over this restricted space since the distance between color space points is thus reduced by a factor of two the color resolution is doubled at the expense of not being able to represent fully saturated colors saturation dominant ordered dither is a method by which a color lying somewhere between the points of the display color space is approximated by primarily alternating between two points of constant hue instead of constant saturation this yields subjectivly better quality due to the lower sensitivity of the human viewing system to saturation changes than to hue changes the same reasoning as used by the pal tv standard to improve on ntsc the improvement is particularly visible in dark brown or redish areas stefan eckart stefan lis e technik tu muenchen de
comp.graphics	point within a polygon i am looking for an algorithm to determine if a given point is bound by a polygon does anyone have any such code or a reference to book containing information on the subject regards simon
comp.graphics	pov reboots pc after memory upgrade up until last week i have been running povray v on my under dos without any major problems over easter i increased the memory from meg to meg and found that povray reboots the system every time under dos i had a go at running povray in a dos window when running win on the same system and it now works fine even if a lot slower i would like to go back to using povray directly under dos anyone any ideas john john heaton nrs central administrator mcc network unit the university oxford road manchester m pl phone fax packet g yyh g yyh gb pwy gbr eu
comp.graphics	good shareware paint and or animation software for sgi does anyone know of any good shareware animation or paint software for an sgi machine i ve exhausted everyplace on the net i can find and still don t hava a nice piece of software thanks alot chad knock knock chad cipiti who s there af cleveland freenet edu cipiti bobcat ent ohiou edu it might be heisenberg chad voxel zool ohiou edu
comp.graphics	processing of stereo images i m interested in find out what is involved in processing pairs of stereo photographs i have black and white photos and would like to obtain surface contours i d prefer to do the processing on an sgi but would be interested in hearing what software hardware is used for this type of image processing please email and or post to comp sys sgi graphics your responses thanks dane hendrix email dane wizard dt navy mil dtmb a k a headquarters carderock div or hendrix oasys dt navy mil naval surface warfare center or hendrix nas nasa gov code bethesda md phone
comp.graphics	re weitek p robert j c kyanko rob rjck uucp wrote abraxis iastate edu writes in article abraxis class iastate edu anyone know about the weitek p graphics chip as far as the low level stuff goes it looks pretty nice it s got this quadrilateral fill command that requires just the four points do you have weitek s address phone number i d like to get some information about this chip joe green harris corporation jgreen csd harris com computer systems division the only thing that really scares me is a person with no sense of humor jonathan winters
comp.graphics	sun os and bit ascii graphics i would like to know if anyone has had any luck using the upper ascii characters on a sun station i am trying to convert a fortran program to run on a sun when we write character buffers to the sun which contain char or char or char etc we get characters on the screen but they are not the characters in the standard ascii tables any ideas or help will be appreciated
comp.graphics	re looking for circle algorithm faster than bresenhams on wed apr gmt graeme labtam labtam oz au graeme gill said graeme yes that s known as bresenhams run length slice algorithm for graeme incremental lines see fundamental algorithms for computer graphics graeme springer verlag berlin heidelberg i have tried to extrapolate this to circles but i can t figure out how to determine the length of the slices any ideas graeme hmm i don t think i can help you with this but you might graeme take a look at the following graeme double step incremental generation of lines and circles graeme x wu and j g rokne computer graphics and image processing graeme vol no mar pp graeme double step generation of ellipses x wu and j g rokne graeme ieee computer graphics applications may pp another paper you might want to consider is article fungdraw title a run length slice line drawing algorithm without division operations author khun yee fung and tina m nicholl and a k dewdney journal computer graphics forum year volume number pages c c khun yee khun yee fung clipper csd uwo ca department of computer science middlesex college university of western ontario london ontario canada n a b tel fax
comp.graphics	geometry package i am looking for a package which takes as inputs a set of geometric objects defined by unions of convex polytopes specified in some manner say by inequalities and equalities and determines in some reasonable form things like intersections unions etc etc does anyone know where i can find such a thing dan naiman department of mathematical sciences johns hopkins university
comp.graphics	re point within a polygon in article apr uk bull co uk scrowe hemel bull co uk simon crowe writes i am looking for an algorithm to determine if a given point is bound by a polygon does anyone have any such code or a reference to book containing information on the subject see the article an efficient ray polygon intersection p in graphics gems isbn the second step intersecting the polygon does what you want there is sample code in the book spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca they are not bolsheviks just bullshitviks yevgeny yevtechenko again a meeting
comp.graphics	re distance between two bezier curves pes hutcs cs hut fi pekka siltanen writes suppose two cubic bezier curves control points v v and w w which have equal first and last control points v w v w how do i get upper bound for distance between these curves which distance the distance between one point t ti on the first curve and a point on the other curve with same parameter u ti any references appreciated thanks in anvance pekka siltanen
comp.graphics	re point within a polygon scrowe hemel bull co uk simon crowe writes i am looking for an algorithm to determine if a given point is bound by a polygon does anyone have any such code or a reference to book containing information on the subject well it s been a while since this was discussed so i take the liberty of reprinting without permission so sue me eric haines reprint of the very interesting discussion of this topic jonas o o x snip snip x o o give a man a fish and he ll eat one day give a man a fishing rod and he ll laze around fishing and never do anything with that in mind i reprint without permission so sue me relevant information posted some years ago on this very problem note the early use of postscript technology predating many of this year s papers listed in the april st siggraph program announcement posted here a few days ago eric intersection between a line and a polygon undecidable by dave baraff tom duff from deb charisma graphics cornell edu newsgroups comp graphics keywords p np jordan curve separation ursyhon metrization theorem organization program of computer graphics in article ncsmith ndsuvax uucp timothy lyle smith writes i need to find a formula algorithm to determine if a line intersects a polygon i would prefer a method that would do this in as little time as possible i need this for use in a forward raytracing program i think that this is a very difficult problem to start with lines and polygons are semi algebraic sets which both contain uncountable number of points here are a few off the cuff ideas first we need to check if the line and the polygon are separated now the jordan curve separation theorem says that the polygon divides the plane into exactly two open and thus non compact regions thus the line lies completely inside the polygon the line lies completely outside the polygon or possibly but this will rarely happen the line intersects the polyon now the phrasing of this question says if a line intersects a polygon so this is a decision problem one possibility the decision model approach is to reduce the question to some other well known problem q and then try to solve q an answer to q gives an answer to the original decision problem in recent years many geometric problems have been successfully modeled in a new language called postscript see postscript language by adobe systems incorporated isbn co so given a line l and a polygon p we can write a postscript program that draws the line l and the polygon p and then outputs the answer by output we mean the program executes a command called showpage which actually prints a page of paper containing the line and the polygon a quick examination of the paper provides an answer to the reduced problem q and thus the original problem there are two small problems with this approach there is an infinite number of ways to encode l and p into the reduced problem q so we will be forced to invoke the axiom of choice or equivalently zorn s lemma but the use of the axiom of choice is not regarded in a very serious light these days more importantly the question arises as to whether or not the postscript program q will actually output a piece of paper or in other words will it halt now postscript is expressive enough to encode everything that a turing machine might do thus the halting problem for postscript is undecidable it is quite possible that the original problem will turn out to be undecidable i won t even begin to go into other difficulties such as aliasing finite precision and running out of ink paper or both a couple of references might be principia mathematica newton i cambridge university press cambridge england sorry i don t have an isbn for this an introduction to automata theory languages and computation hopcroft j and ulman j the c programming language kernighan b and ritchie d a tale of two cities dickens c from td alice uucp tom duff summary overkill organization at t bell laboratories murray hill nj the situation is not nearly as bleak as baraff suggests he should know better he s hung around the labs for long enough by the well known dobbin dullman reduction see j dullman d dobbin j comp obfusc ii pp lemma a line polygon intersection can be reduced to hamiltonian circuit without the use of grobner bases so lpi to coin an acronym is probably only np complete besides turing completeness will no longer be a problem once our cray is delivered since it will be able to complete an infinite loop in milliseconds with scatter gather from deb svax cs cornell edu david baraff well sure its no worse than np complete but that s only if you restrict yourself to the case where the line satisfies a lipschitz condition on its second derivative i think there s an siggraph paper from caltech that deals with this j o n a s y n g v e s s o n email jonas y isy liu se dept of electrical engineering voice university of linkoping sweden fax
comp.graphics	re point within a polygon in article apr uk bull co uk scrowe hemel bull co uk simon crowe writes i am looking for an algorithm to determine if a given point is bound by a polygon does anyone have any such code or a reference to book containing information on the subject regards simon basically there are two algorithms determining whether a point is inside outside or on the polygon the first one is ray or half line method in this method you can draw any ray if the number of the intersection point of the ray and the polygon is even then it is outside if the number is odd then it is inside of cause you have to deal with the special cases which may make you headache the second method is pi algorithm draw the lines between the point and all the vertices on the polygon calculate and sum the angles of the successive lines if the result is pi then it is inside if pi then it is on the polygon otherwise it is outside my experience tells the second method is relible hope this helps yeh usc
comp.graphics	re two pointing devices in one com port bob davis sonny trantor harris atd com wrote in article c tkgm v unix portal com wil shell portal com ville v walveranta writes is there any way to connect two pointing devices to one serial port i haven t tried this but i believe they would interfere with each other even if only one at a time would be used just get an a b switch for rs look in computer shopper they are available fairly cheap they allow switching between two serial devices on a single port unfortunately the poster wants to use an internal and an external modem so a switch isn t going to help them if you aren t using your com ports for anything else just define them on different com ports define your internal modem to be say com and your external modem to be com you really shouldn t have to worry about interrupt conflicts since you won t be using both modems at the same time christopher chan nui investment in reliability will increase until it channui austin ibm com exceeds the probable cost of errors or until someone include disclaimer h insists on getting some useful work done
comp.graphics	re fractals what good are they in article pdxgate uucp idr rigel cs pdx edu ian d romanick writes they talked about another routine that could yield up to to compress with no image loss that i could notice the draw back is that it takes a hell of a long time to compress something i ll have to see if i can find the book so that i can give more exact numbers ttyl that s a typical claim though they say they ve improved compression speed considerably did you find out anything else about the book i d be interested in looking at it if you could give me any pointers reportedly early fractal compression times of hours used that marvelous piece of hardware called grad students to do the work supposedly it s been automated since about but i m still waiting to be impressed allen b sign me cynical
comp.graphics	re bgi drivers for svga dominic lai cs cylai cs ust hk wrote simon crowe scrowe hemel bull co uk wrote i require bgi drivers for super vga displays and super xvga displays does anyone know where i could obtain the relevant drivers ftp sites i would like to know too regards dominic garbo uwasa fi or one of its many mirrors has a file called svgabg in the programming subdirectory these are svga bgi drivers for a variety of cards from the readme card types supported supervga drivers ahead ati chips tech everex genoa paradise oak trident both and tseng both and chipsets and video these drivers will also work on video cards with vesa capability the tweaked drivers will work on any register compatible vga card enjoy clark verbrugge clump cs mcgill ca honk honk blat wak wak wak wak wak ungow
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of in article hc mentor cc purdue edu ab nova cc purdue edu allen b writes in article apr galki toppoint de ulrich galki toppoint de writes according to the tiff specification the tiff version number bytes has been chosen for its deep philosophical significance last week i read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy is this actually how they picked the number i m sure it is and i am not amused every time i read that part of the tiff spec it infuriates me and i m none too happy about the complexity of the spec anyway because i think their arbitrary but carefully chosen number is neither additionally i find their choice of bytes to begin a file with meaningless of themselves why not just use the letters tiff and no i don t think they should have bothered to support both word orders either and i ve found that many tiff readers actually don t ab why so up tight for that matter tiff is out now so why not gripe about its problems also if its so important to you volunteer to help define or critique the spec finally a little numerology is backwards and tiff is a bit image format chris christopher p tully cptully med unc edu univ of north carolina chapel hill cb chapel hill nc i get paid for my opinions but that doesn t mean that unc or anybody else agrees with them
comp.graphics	interleaf to cgm has anyone successfully converted interleaf graphics to cgm or even heard of it being done we d love to hear about it mike mcconnell emm cray com
comp.graphics	re hollywood hits virtual reality sorry i missed you raymond i was just out in dahlgren last month i m the virtual reality market manager for silicon graphics so perhaps i can help a little in article mar relay nswc navy mil rchui nswc wo nswc navy mil raymond chui writes hello the real reality our agency started to express interest in virtual reality vr so far we do not know much about vr all we know about are the hollywood movies the terminater and lawnmover man we also know something about vr from abc news magazine and computer graphics world magazine unfortunately while sgi systems were used to create the special effects for both terminator and lawnmower man those are film quality computer graphics rendered in software and written to film a frame at a time each frame of computer animation for those films took hours to render on high end parallel processing computer systems thus that level of graphics would be difficult if not impossible to acheive in real time frames per second we certainly want to know more about vr who are the leading companies agencies universities what machines support vr i e sgi sun hp bim etc it depends upon how serious you are and how advanced your application is true immersive visualization vr requires the rendering of complex visual databases at anywhere from to newly rendered frames per second this is a similar requirement to that of traditional flight simulators for pilot training if the frame rate is too low the user notices the stepping of the frames as they move their head rapidly around the scene so the motion of the graphics is not smooth and contiguous thus the graphics system must be powerful enough to sustain high frame rates while rendering complex data representations additionally the frame rate must be constant if the system renders frames per second at one point then frames per second the next perhaps due to the scene in the new viewing direction being simpler than what was visible before the user can get heavily distracted by the medium the graphics computer rather than focusing on the data to maintain a constant frame rate the system must be able to run in real time unix in general does not support real time operation but silicon graphics has modified the unix kernel for its multi processor systems to be able to support real time operation bypassing the usual unix process priority management schemes uniprocessor systems running unix cannot fundamentally support real time operation not sun sparc not hp series systems not ibm rs not even sgi s uniprocessor systems like indigo or crimson only our multiprocessor onyx and challenge systems support real time operation due to their symmetric multi processing smp shared memory architecture from a graphics perspective rendering complex virtual environments requires advanced rendering techniques like texture mapping and real time multi sample anti aliasing of all of the general purpose graphics systems on the market today only crimson realityengine and onyx realityengine systems fully support these capabilities the anti aliasing is particularly important as the crawling jagged edges of aliased polygons is an unfortunate distraction when immersed in a virtual environment what kind of graphics languages are used with vr gl opengl phigs pex gks etc you can use the general purpose graphics libraries listed above to develop vr applications but that is starting at a pretty low level there are off the shelf software packages available to get you going much faster being targeted directly at the vr application developer some of the most popular are in no particular order division inc redwood city ca dvs sens inc sausalito ca worldtoolkit naval postgraduate school monterey ca npsnet free gemini technology corp irvine ca gvs simation series paradigm simulation inc dallas tx visionworks audioworks silicon graphics inc mountain view ca iris performer there are some others but not off the top of my head what companies are making interface devices for vr goggles or boom binocular omni orientational monitor hamlets gloves arms etc there are too many to list here but here is a smattering fake space labs menlo park ca boom virtual technologies inc stanford ca cyberglove digital image design new york ny the cricket d input kaiser electro optics carlsbad ca sim eye helmet displays virtual research sunnyvale ca flight helmet display virtual reality inc pleasantville ny head mtd displays s w software systems san jose ca d modeling software etc etc etc what are those company s addresses and phone numbers where we can get a list name of vr experts and their phone numbers and email addresses read some of the vr books on the market virtual reality ken pimental and ken texiera sp virtual mirage artificial reality myron kreuger etc or check out the newsgroup sci virtual worlds feel free to contact me for more info regards josh joshua mogal product manager advanced graphics division advanced graphics systems silicon graphics inc market manager north shoreline blvd virtual reality mountain view ca interactive entertainment m s l tel fax e mail mogal sgi com
comp.graphics	re point within a polygon in article jonas y gouraud jonas y isy liu se jonas yngvesson writes intersection between a line and a polygon undecidable by dave baraff tom duff from deb charisma graphics cornell edu in recent years many geometric problems have been successfully modeled in a new language called postscript see postscript language by adobe systems incorporated isbn co so given a line l and a polygon p we can write a postscript program that draws the line l and the polygon p and then outputs the answer by output we mean the program executes a command called showpage which actually prints a page of paper containing the line and the polygon a quick examination of the paper provides an answer to the reduced problem q and thus the original problem curiously in modern postscript the point in a polygon problem can be solved even more easily to wit title point in polygon creator allen b ab cc purdue edu for the amusement of comp graphics regulars languagelevel documentneededresource humor sense thereof endcomments this program will test whether a point is inside a given polygon currently it uses the even odd rule but that can be changed by replacing ineofill with infill these are level operators so if you ve only got level you re out of luck the result will be printed on the output stream caution only accurate to device pixels put a huge scale in first if you aren t sure point to test put x and y coordinates here vertices of polygon in counter clockwise order put array of pairs of coordinates here dup get aload pop moveto dup length dup roll sub getinterval aload pop lineto forall closepath ineofill yes no ifelse
comp.graphics	virtual reality for x on the cheap hi everyone i thought that some people may be interested in my vr software on these groups announcing the release of multiverse multiverse is a multi user non immersive x windows based virtual reality system primarily focused on entertainment research features client server based model using berkeley sockets no limit to the number of users apart from performance generic clients customizable servers hierachical objects allowing attachment of cameras and light sources multiple light sources ambient point and spot objects can have extension code to handle unique functionality easily attached functionality client the client is built around a fast render loop basically it changes things when told to by the server and then renders an image from the user s viewpoint it also provides the server with information about the user s actions which can then be communicated to other clients and therefore to other users the client is designed to be generic in other words you don t need to develop a new client when you want to enter a new world this means that resources can be spent on enhancing the client software rather than adapting it the adaptations as will be explained in a moment occur in the servers this release of the client software supports the following functionality o hierarchical objects with associated addressing o multiple light sources and types ambient point and spot o user interface panels o colour polygonal rendering with phong shading optional wireframe for faster frame rates o mouse and keyboard input some people may be disappointed that this software doesn t support the powerglove as an input device this is not because it can t but because i don t have one this will however be one of the first enhancements server s this is where customization can take place the following basic support is provided in this release for potential world server developers o transparent client management o client message handling this may not sound like much but it takes away the headache of accepting and terminating clients and receiving messages from them the application writer can work with the assumption that things are happening locally things get more interesting in the object extension functionality this is what is provided to allow you to animate your objects o server selectable extension installation what this means is that you can decide which objects have extended functionality in your world basically you call the extension initialisers you want o event handler registration when you develop extensions for an object you basically write callback functions for the events that you want the object to respond to current events supported init move change collide terminate o collision detection registration if you want your object to respond to collision events just provide some basic information to the collision detection management software your callback will be activated when a collision occurs this software is kept separate from the worldserver applications because the application developer wants to build a library of extended objects from which to choose the following is all you need to make a world server application o provide an initworld function this is where you choose what object extensions will be supported plus any initialization you want to do o provide a positionobject function this is where you determine where to place a new client o provide an installworldobjects function this is where you load the world wld file for a new client o provide a getworldtype function this is where you tell a new client what persona they should have o provide an animateworld function this is where you can go wild at a minimum you should let the objects move by calling a move function and let the server sleep for a bit to avoid outrunning the clients that s all there is to it and to prove it here are the line counts for the three world servers i ve provided generic lines dactyl lines more complicated collision detection due to the stairs will probably be improved with future versions dogfight lines location this software is located at the following site ftp u washington edu directory pub virtual worlds file multiverse tar z futures client o texture mapping o more realistic rendering i e z buffering or similar gouraud shading o hmd support o etc etc server o physical modelling gravity friction etc o enhanced object management interaction o etc etc both o improved comms i hope this provides people with a good understanding of the multiverse software unfortunately it comes with practically zero documentation and i m not sure whether that will ever be able to be rectified i hope people enjoy this software and that it is useful in our explorations of the virtual universe i ve certainly found fascinating developing it and i would love to add support for the powerglove and an hmd finally one major disclaimer this is totally amateur code by that i mean there is no support for this code other than what i out the kindness of my heart or you out of pure desperation provide i cannot be held responsible for anything good or bad that may happen through the use of this code use it at your own risk disclaimer over of course if you love it i would like to here from you and anyone with positive contributions criticisms is also encouraged to contact me anyone who hates it dev null and if anyone wants to let me do this for a living you know where to write thanks robert robert acsc com
comp.graphics	re virtual reality for x on the cheap update on location directory should be public virtual worlds sorry robert robert acsc com
comp.graphics	pcx hello help please i am a student of turbo c and graphics programming and i am having some problems finding algorithms and code to teach me how to do some stuff where is there a book or code that will teach me how to read and write pcx dbf and gif files how do i access the extra ram on my paradise video board so i can do paging in the higher vga modes ie x x x x anybody got a line on a good book to help answer these question thanks very much send reply s to palm snycanva bitnet peace be blessed be stephen palm
comp.graphics	what s a good assembly vga programming book can someone give me the title of a good vga graphics programming book please respond by email thanks yuan che yuan wang cw uxa cso uiuc edu cywang ux cso uiuc edu
comp.graphics	re fractals what good are they in regards to fractal commpression i have seen fractal compressed movies they were both fairly impressive the first one was a gray scale movie of casablanca it was mb and had minutes of fps video it was a little grainy but not bad at all the second one i saw was only minutes but it had bit color with fps and measured in at mb i consider the fractal movies a practical thing to explore but unlike many other formats out there you do end up losing resolution i don t know what kind of software hardware was used for creating the movies i saw but the guy that showed them to me said it took minutes per frame to generate but as i said above playback was or more frames per second and how else could you put minutes on one floppy disk davidr rincon ema rockwell com my opinions are my own except where they are shared by others in which case i will probably change my mind
comp.graphics	re re vga x graphics mode my a vesa tsr supports this can you report crt and other register state in this mode thank s serge ivanov serge argus msk su
comp.graphics	reaction diffusion techniques this past week i ve been playing with some of the r d reaction diffusion not to be confused with rds or r d techniques from siggraph i was wondering what material is available to explain the control mechanism a little more it seems to me very much like a matter of picking random magic numbers and sitting back and waiting although both of the papers turk and witkin kass were very well organized and extremely helpful i guess what i need is a more basic description of the technique especially wrt the control mechanisms the tests that i did had a tendency to either turn into blurry mud or become unstable is there any info available online source code would be great but not necessary thanks terran j boylan sr artist programmer it s better to have loved engineering animation inc ames ia and lost than just to have pm lost dorky dog
comp.graphics	bit graphics cards i am looking for eisa or vesa local bus graphic cards that support at least x x resolution i know matrox has one but it is very expensive all the other cards i know of that support that resoultion are striaght isa also are there any x servers for a unix pc that support bits thanks
comp.graphics	re fractal generation of clouds haabn nye nscee edu frederick j haab writes i need to implement an algorithm to fractally generate clouds as sort of a benchmark for some algorithms i m working on just as a matter of interest a self promo computer graphics sequence that one of the local tv stations used to play quite a lot a couple of years ago showed a d flyover of australia from the west coast to the east the clouds were quite recognisable as fuzzy flat white mandlebrot sets david silver
comp.graphics	please recommend d graphics library for mac hi netters i m building a cad package and need a d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such as hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations i ll also need contact info name address email if you can find it thanks please post your responses in case others have same need bob carpenter
comp.graphics	re hot new d software in article qflpk re usenet ins cwru edu mbc po cwru edu michael b comet wrote in a previous article trb ra msstate edu tony r boutwell says there is a new product for the ibm ers out there it is called imagine and it just started shipping yesterday i can personally attest that it will blow the doors off of d studio it is made by impulse and is in its well i don t know about its competing with d studio but it s pretty powerful allright yes but a key issue is speed how fast is imagine and is it as easy to use as d studio can it just do a render as fast as ds if you don t want things like ior etc ds can do fine shadows animated reflection maps animated bump maps animated anything maps and with the ipas routines not that i ve ever seen them it can do explosions top quality morphing fire rain lens flares etc i m not knocking imagine i just want to know how it compares with ds
comp.graphics	raytracers which is best hi all i ve just recently become seriously hooked on pov but there are a few thing that i want to do that pov won t do penumbral shadows dispersion etc i was just wondering what other shareware freeware raytracers are out there and what can they do i ve heard of vivid and polyray and rayshade and so on but i d rather no wade through several hundred pages of manual for each trying to work out what their capabilities are can anyone help a comparison of tracing speed between each program would also be mucho useful mark mark mackey life is a terminal disease and oxygen is mmackey aqueous ml csiro au addictive are you hooked
comp.graphics	shareware recently i saw the latest computer shopper and in it there was an article on nice shareware graphics programs they looked pretty good and of the listed in the article one i had graphics workshop one i found via archie draft choice old version though and the rest i couldn t find so if there is anyone that knows where i can get the following programs via anonymous ftp please let me know adkins graphics ag zip ag zip draft choice latest vga version draftc zip envision publisher envis zip envis zip neopaint neopnt zip thanx in advance d petro david petro kwyjibo a big dumb balding dept of physics north american ape university of windsor petro server uwindsor ca
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac robert g carpenter writes hi netters i m building a cad package and need a d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such as hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations i ll also need contact info name address email if you can find it thanks please post your responses in case others have same need bob carpenter i too would like a d graphics library how much do c libraries cost anyway can you get the tools used by say renderman and can you get them at a reasonable cost sorry that i don t have any answers just questions matt madsen mmadsen ics uci edu
comp.graphics	thinning algorithm hi netters i am looking for source code that can reads the ascii file or bitmap file and produced the thinned image for example to preprocess the character image i want to apply thinning algorithm thanks kevin
comp.graphics	looking for autocad dxf file parser hello does anyone know of any c or c function libraries in the public domain that assist in parsing an autocad dxf file please e mail thanks jogle geigel seas gwu edu
comp.graphics	delaunay triangulation does anybody know what delaunay triangulation is is there any reference to it is it useful for creating d objects if yes what s the advantage thanks in advance yeh usc
comp.graphics	re cylinder and ray in article qc fginnbv darkstar ucsc edu koehler secs ucsc edu writes i would be most thrilled if some kind person could help me with the following given a cylinder in d defined as a line segment between two points and a radius e g sx sy sz to ex ey ez and r what is the easiest and not too expensive way to find if a ray defined as another line through two points cuts through this cylinder and if so where i think the test for touching is rather simple if the closest approach of the two lines is less than r then the ray does penetrate the cylinder nope this won t work for a cylinder you can have a line arbitrarily close to the the cylinder backbone and yet not intersect it the test works for a pillbox though a cylinder with two hemispheres attached at the ends thanks ryan koehler secs ucsc edu arun
comp.graphics	re crimson was kubota announcement in article bu edu kiki problem with inews gateway file keith baccki writes c lee lee obiwan rsg hac com wrote did you say dec alpha upgrade path from xx replace upgrade path from vax x to alpha replace the system not totally fair you haven t mentioned the decstation series i think if sgi made cisc mainframes they wouldn t provide an upgrade path to an onyx i agree with you about the upgrade path but i think i was fair the original posting complained about sgi coming out with newer and better architectures and not having an upgrade path from the older ones and that dec did on statement i merely attempted to point out that all computer companies are constantly attempting to improve their product market position share in so doing they eventually come to a point where they have a new architecture and the only upgrade path is to replace the system and the particular system he was complaining about was in computer lifetimes relatively old on statement i felt dec s history of providing upgrades was not far superior than the industry average and that in my opinion sgi s history is better than dec s and what is dec doing with it s mips based decstation line are they going to abandon it for their alpha based line or provide an upgrade path to r s and tfp s and r s
comp.graphics	book of kells correction i aparantly mistyped the address for the ftp site which holds the images the correct address should be jupiter csd unb ca rather than jupiter csd unb edu they are in the directory pub library info jon williams university of northern iowa
comp.graphics	job job opportunity seri systems engineering research institute of kist korea institute of science and technology is looking for the resumes for the following position and need them by the end of june if you are interested send resumes to cad cae lab th floor systems engineering research institute korea institute of science and technology yousung gu eoeun dong daejon korea company systems engineering research institute title senior research scientist job description in depth knowledge of c working knowledge of computer aided design working knowledge of computer graphics working knowledge of virtual reality skills not required but desirable knowledge of data modeling virtual reality experience understanding of client server architecture requirement ph d job location daejon korea contact info chul ho lim cad cae lab th floor systems engineering research institute korea institute of science and technology yousung gu eoeun dong daejon korea phone fax e mail jxl
comp.graphics	chosing optimal colors for colormap hi i m looking for an algorithm that would generate a good cross section of rgb colours given a limited colour map size the problem i m writing an application for the pc that may have at most colors i want to use one colormap palette for the application but i d like it to contain an even spread of colours of the visible spectrum i could use a x x rgb cube but the problem is that a lot of those colours are almost identical to the human eye does anyone know how i can optimize my choice of colors
comp.graphics	re siggraph srnelson speedsail eng sun com scott r nelson writes dave mikelson almac co uk dave mikelson writes does anyone know if there is an open day for the public at any time that is not to attend conferences but just browse around the exhibits or are the exhibits etc just for fully registered attendees was free as long as you got it to siggraph on or before july for it was similar or free before july it is safe to assume that the same kind of deal will be available this year i just got my advance program and the card in the back is for the exhibits plus program the exhibits plus admission to a number of conference venues including a special general session behind the scenes computer graphics in film admission is not free but is a nominal exhibits are open august to get a copy of the advance program you can call the advance program itself is a good indication of the excitement of the conference register early and get in for free sorry doesn t work this year steve cunningham
comp.graphics	d studio works changes hi guys like all people in this group i m a fans of fractal and render sw my favourite are fractint pov dstudio now listen my ideas i have just starting now to be able to use dstudio quite well so i m simulating a full animation of a f grand prix unfortanatly just some lap i m very interested about all kind of prj ds and so on concerning about cars or parts of its motors wheel dxf are good enough does anyone have object to give me to complete my hard animation anyway any exchanges about object material project will be very apreciate is there a ftp site where i can find its i m looking for pov files too i m interested about cpu time comparision rendering images on pov dstusio thank to all email me at rosa ghost sm dsi unimi it
comp.graphics	re rumours about do dave optimla aimla com dave ziedman writes do is still a concept the software is what sells and what will determine its success apparantly you dont keep up on the news do was shown at ces to developers and others at private showings over software licensees currently developing software for it i would say that it is a lot more than just a concept
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for m in article g bcstec ca boeing com rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes hi netters i m building a cad package and need a d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such as hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations i ll also need contact info name address email if you can find it thanks please post your responses in case others have same need bob carpenter i ve been given the sites of some excellent d objects on all sorts of file formats here s where they are host plaza aarnet edu au location graphics graphics mirrors directory drwxr xr x apr avalon chinalake navy mil host compute cc ncsu edu location mirrors wustl graphics graphics mirrors directory drwxr xr x mar avalon chinalake navy mil host wuarchive wustl edu location graphics graphics mirrors directory drwxr xr x jan avalon chinalake navy mil see ya ajay
comp.graphics	about the various dxf format questions archie told me the following sites holding documentation about dxf host nic funet fi last updated apr location pub csc graphics format file rwxrwxr dec dxf doc host rainbow cse nau edu last updated jun location graphics formats file rw r r mar dxf doc host ftp waseda ac jp last updated apr location pub data graphic file rw r r nov dxf doc z j org wunsch ham dl dtl joerg wunsch uriah sax de if anything can go wrong or o o joerg sax de wutcd hadrian hrz tu chemnitz de it will joerg wunsch tcd dresden de
comp.graphics	re mpeg for x windows mono needed on sunsite unc edu in pub multimedia utilities unix find mpeg play tar z i find for mono it works best as mpeg play dither threshold though you can use mpeg play dither mono face it this is not be the best viewing situation also someone has made a patch for mpeg play that gives two more mono modes mono and halftone they are by jan pandonia canberra edu au jan newmarch and the patch can be found on csc canberra edu au under pub motif mpeg mono patch leon dent lcd umcc umich edu
comp.graphics	compiled version of vogl library for pc has anybody compiled vogl graphics library for ibm pc i need to call it from ms fortran but don t have ms c to compile the sources thanks for any help martti toivakka mtoivakk abo fi
comp.graphics	re virtual reality for x on the cheap has anyone got multiverse to work i have built it on svr mips svr s and sun sparcstation there seems to be many bugs in it the dogfight and dactyl simply do nothing after fixing a bug where a variable is defined twice in two different modules one needed setting to static else the client core dumped steve extn sts mfltd co uk uunet mfocus sts micro focus just like pariah i have no name rm rf west street living in a blaze of obscurity rum ruff splat newbury need courage to survive the day berkshire england a bort r etry i nfluence with large hammer
comp.graphics	micro world data bank ii i m looking for a database called micro world data bank ii a database with digital map information containing latitude longitude points it is said to be in the public domain if anyone knows a place where i can get it preferably ftp gopher mailserver etc otherwise snail mail please let me know i you have it yourself and are willing to send me the file drop me a line i ll be using it with a program called versamap by charles h culberson if anyone knows of another detailed database that can be used with this program preferably pd i would be very interested replies by e mail please directly to me i don t read this group regularly if there s interest i ll post a summary of course derk ederveen fidonet tel d n m ederveen research ptt nl ederveen hlsdnl bitnet fax x c nl admd net prmd ptt research o ptt research s ederveen i dnm i wish i was a warrior in every language that i speak lou reed
comp.graphics	looking for dr bala r vatti s email address hi i am looking for the email address of the author to a generic solution to polygon clipping communication of the acm july vol no i got information about the author as follows mr bala r vatti lcec river road hudson n h email vatti waynar lcec lockheed i want to get some related and detailed papers about the same topic from the author but i failed to send my email to the address any information is appreciated thank you very much best regards s h young kunii lab dept of information science faculty of science university of tokyo bunkyo ku hongo tokyo japan email young is s u tokyo ac jp
comp.graphics	round vs elliptical dot screens when using photoshop is there anyway to get an elliptical dot for the halftone screen rather than a round dot my printer would prefer an elliptical dot but i m not sure how to set it up i m sending from a mac iici to a linotronic l imagesetter and i am using photoshop to make my separations any help would be greatly appreshed t i a michael unscene michael maier computer artist anl z glued to the veiw email michael maier qmgate anl gov tv is the milk of amnesia phone michael maier
comp.graphics	sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement in article hacgate scg hac com lee luke rsg hac com c lee writes the original posting complained about sgi coming out with newer and better architectures and not having an upgrade path from the older ones and that dec did no that s not what i was complaining about nor did i intend to suggest that dec was any better than sgi let me tell you about the lynx some day but be prepared with a large sedative if you do my comment regarding dec was to indicate that i might be open to other vendors that supported opengl rather than deal further with sgi what i am annoyed about is the fact that we were led to believe that we would be able to upgrade to a multiprocessor version of the crimson without the assistance of a fork lift truck i m also annoyed about being sold several personal irises at a previous site on the understanding that architecture would be around for a while rather than being flushed now i understand that sgi is responsible to its investors and has to keep showing a positive quarterly bottom line odd that i found myself pressured on at least two occasions to get the business on the books just before the end of the quarter but i m just a little tired of getting boned in the process maybe it s because my lab buys sgis in onesies and twosies so we aren t entitled to a peek under the covers as the big kids nasa for instance are this lab and i suspect that a lot of other labs and organizations doesn t have a load of money to spend on computers every year so we can t be out buying new systems on a regular basis the boxes that we buy now will have to last us pretty much through the entire grant period of five years and in some case beyond that means that i need to buy the best piece of equipment that i can when i have the money not some product that was built to paraphrase one previous poster s words to fill a niche to compete with some other vendor i m going to be looking at this box for the next five years and every time i look at it i m going to think about sgi and how i could have better spent my money actually your money since we re supported almost entirely by federal tax dollars now you ll have to pardon me while i go off and hiss and fume in a corner somewhere and think dark libelous thoughts spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca my other car is a car too bumper strip seen on i
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac robert g carpenter writes hi netters i m building a cad package and need a d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such as hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations i ll also need contact info name address email if you can find it thanks please post your responses in case others have same need bob carpenter the following is extracted from sumex aim stanford edu it should also be on the mirrors i think there is source for some applications that may have some bearing on your project poke around the source directory i ve never used this package nor do i know anyone who did but the price is right hope this helps cheinan abstracts of files as of thu apr pst directory info mac source binhex d grafsys hqx date fri mar from christian steffen ove franz cfranz iiic ethz ch to questions mac archive umich edu subject d grafsys in incoming directory a d grafsys short description follows programmers d grafsys vers now available version is mainly a bugfix for think c users this version now runs with think c i promise the docs now contain a chapter for c programmers on how to use the grafsys if you have problems feel free to contact me the other change is that i removed the fastperftrig calls from the fpu version to make it run faster those of you who don t know what all this is about read on programmers d grafsys what it is didn t you always have this great game in mind where you needed some way of drawing three dimensional scenes didn t you always want to write this program that visualized the structure of three dimensional molecules and didn t the task of writing your d conversions routines keep you from actually doing it well if the answer to any of the above questions is yes but what has it to do with this package read on grafsys is a think pascal c library that provides you with simple routines for building saving loading as resources and manipulating independent rotating around arbitrary achses translating and scaling three dimensional objects objects not just simple single line drawings grafsys supports full d clipping animation and some primitive hidden line hidden surface drawing with simple commands from within your program grafsys also supports full eye control with both perspective and parallel projections if you can t understand a word don t worry this is just showing off for those who know about it the docs that come with it will try to explain what it all means later on grafsys provides a powerful interface to supply your own drawing routines with data so you can use grafsys to do the d transformations and your own routines to do the actual drawing note that grafsys also provides drawing routines so you don t have to worry about that if you don t want to grafsys comes in two versions one for the and or above processors the other version uses fixed point arithmetic and runs on any mac both versions are source compatibel grafsys comes with an extensive manual that teaches you the fundamentals of d graphics and how to use the package if demand is big enough i will convert the grafsys to an object class library however i feelt that the way it is implemented now makes it easier to use for a lot more people than the select oop guild grafsys is free for any non commercial usage read the documentation enclosed enjoy christian franz
comp.graphics	re fonts in pov in article qg fc et wampyr cc uow edu au g wampyr cc uow edu au coronado emmanuel abad says i have seen several ray traced scenes from mtv or was it rayshade with stroked fonts appearing as objects in the image the fonts chars had color depth and even textures associated with them now i was wondering is it possible to do the same in pov thanks noel yes there are serveral programs which can convert font files eq the borland fonts to objects consisting of spheres cones etc i ve used a program forgot its name place but i can look for it which converted these borland fonts to three different raytracers vivid pov and polyray which i like more more flexibel faster use of expressions etc the program has a lot nice features so if interested give me a mail peter vanderveen visser el wau nl o o department of genetics agricultural university u wageningen the netherlands
comp.graphics	re vesa on the speedstar using the vmode command all you need to do is type vmode vesa at the dos prompt vmode is included with the speedstar i have used the vesa mode for autodesk animator pro geoffrey hansen mindlink bc ca inumerable confusions and a feeling of despair invariably emerge in periods of great technological and cultural transition marshall mcluhan
comp.graphics	re hot new d software i don t have nor imagine nor real d but as old amiga user i think you should take a look also to real d for the amiga i saw imagine on the amiga for a long time at my friend s home and i ve seen r d in action at bit movie in riccione italy an italian computer graphics contest many professionals using d studio on pc softimage for silicon graphics and imagine on the amiga were very impressed by the power of this programs sorry i ve lost the posting with full description of features of this great program for more informations give a look in comp sys amiga graphics representative of activa international told me that it will be out in weeks for the amiga and that pc ms windows silicon indigo and unix version are under development ciao sergio sergio ruocco ruocco ghost sm dsi unimi it via di vittorio i settimo milanese milano phone
comp.graphics	re pcx in article apr freenet carleton ca ad freenet carleton ca jason wiggle writes from ad freenet carleton ca jason wiggle subject pcx date wed apr gmt hello help please i am a student of turbo c and graphics programming and i am having some problems finding algorithms and code to teach me how to do some stuff where is there a book or code that will teach me how to read and write pcx dbf and gif files how do i access the extra ram on my paradise video board so i can do paging in the higher vga modes ie x x x x anybody got a line on a good book to help answer these question thanks very much send reply s to palm snycanva bitnet peace be blessed be stephen palm a book that i can somewhat recommend is pratical image processing in c by craig a lindley published by wiley it addresses reading writing to from pcx tiff files image acquisition manipulation and storage and has source code in the book the source is primarily written in turbo c and naturally has conversion possibilities i have converted some of it to quick c naturally the code has some problems in the book as usuall typos syntax etc are problems it can be a good learning experience for someone who is studying c there is also a companion disk with source available for order and overall the book is not bad i acquired the book at waldensoftware
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library f what hardware do plan to run on workstation or pc cost level run time licensing needs bob robert a schmitt applied derivatives technology lehman brothers rschmitt shearson com
comp.graphics	need help with mitsubishi p u image printer our group recently bought a mitsubishi p u video printer and i could use some help with it we bought this thing because it has a parallel data input in addition to the usual video signal inputs and claimed to print gray level images however the manual that came with it only describes how to format the parallel data to print and bit pixel images after some initial problems with the parallel interface i now have this thing running from a parallel port of an hewlett packard workstation and i can print and bit pixel images just fine i called the mitsubishi people and asked about the level claim and they said that was only available when used with the video signal inputs this was not mentioned in the sales literature however they did say the p u can do bit pixel level images in parallel mode but they didn t have any information about how to program it to do so and they would call japan etc frankly i find it hard to believe that if this thing can do bit pixel images from the video source it can t store bits pixel in the memory it s not like memory is that expensive any more if anybody has any information on getting bit pixel or even bit pixel images out of this thing i would greatly appreciate your sending it to me thanks allan weber signal image processing institute university of southern california weber sipi usc edu
comp.graphics	need graph display edit i am looking for a program that is capable of displaying a graph with nodes and links and with the possibility to edit interactively the graph add one node change one link etc actually a very simple x program would be ok all i need is to put some boxes i e the nodes on a pane and be able to manipulate them with the mouse move add or delete boxes does anyone know if such program is available thanks for any help loris renggli phone swiss federal institute of technology fax math dept ch lausanne switzerland e mail renggli masg epfl ch
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cd i s cpu doesn t help much either i understand it is a supposedly a variation of a running at something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites wow a i d be very interested to get my hands on one of these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which is supposedly the next in the x lineup d ricardo the animation playback to which lawrence was referring in an earlier post is plain old quicktime with the compact video codec i ve seen digitized video some of apple s early commercials to be precise running on a centris at about fps very nicely bit color depth i would expect that using the same algorithm a risc processor should be able to approach full screen full motion animation though as you ve implied the processor will be taxed more with highly dynamic material sean mcmains check out the gopher phone university of north texas new bands info server fax p o box at seanmac acs unt edu e mail denton tx mcmains unt edu
comp.graphics	xga info hi has anyone more info about the xga chipset hw funcs truecolor resolutions any boards with xga out yet thanks rainer rainer leberle rleberle sparc cstp umkc edu university of kansas city mo new mail from clinton whitehouse dc gov no subject specified
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of cptully med unc edu christopher p tully pathology writes why so up tight for that matter tiff is out now so why not gripe about its problems also if its so important to you volunteer to help define or critique the spec hear hear finally a little numerology is backwards and tiff is a bit image format really i thought that the reason it was was that it is really but written as so that on intel chips you could get the proper value pete help stomp out the endian wars break some eggs on their sides peter mueller thebishop when a person commits a violation and sins highlndr ux cso uiuc edu unintentionally in regard to any of the pmueller mrcnext cso uiuc edu lord s holy things he is to bring to the lord as a penalty a ram from the flock
comp.graphics	re sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement my comment regarding dec was to indicate that i might be open to other vendors that supported opengl rather than deal further with sgi opengl is a graphics programming library and as such is a great portable interface for the development of interactive d graphics applications it is not however an indicator of performance as that will vary strongly from machine to machine and vendor to vendor sgi is committed to high performance interactive graphics systems and software tools so opengl means that you can port easily from sgi to other platforms there is no guarantee that your performance would be comparable what i am annoyed about is the fact that we were led to believe that we would be able to upgrade to a multiprocessor version of the crimson without the assistance of a fork lift truck if your sales representative truly mislead you then you should have a valid grievance against us which you should carry up to your local sgi sales management team feel free to contact the local branch manager we understand that repeat sales come from satisfied customers so give it a shot i m also annoyed about being sold several personal irises at a previous site on the understanding that architecture would be around for a while rather than being flushed as one of the previous posts stated the personal iris was introduced in and grew to include the d d d and d as clock rates sped up over time as a rule of thumb sgi platforms live for about years this was true of the motorola based series the pi the professional series the early d s the power series parallel systems individual cpu subsystems running at a particular clock rate usually live for about years new graphics architectures at the high end gt vgx realityengine are released every months to years these are the facts of life if we look at these machines they become almost archaic after four years and we have to come out with a new platform like indigo onyx challenge which has higher bus bandwidths faster cpus faster graphics and i o and larger disk capacities if we don t we become uncompetitive from the user perspective you have to buy a machine that meets your current needs and makes economic sense today you can t wait to buy but if you need a guaranteed upgrade path for the machine ask the sales rep for one in writing if it s feasible they should be able to do that some of our upgrade paths have specific programs associated with them such as the performance protection program for older r based power series multiprocessing systems which allowed purchasers of those systems to obtain a guaranteed upgrade price for moving to the new onyx or challenge r based bit multiprocessor systems now i understand that sgi is responsible to its investors and has to keep showing a positive quarterly bottom line odd that i found myself pressured on at least two occasions to get the business on the books just before the end of the quarter but i m just a little tired of getting boned in the process if that s happening it s becausing of misunderstandings or mis communication not because sgi is directly attempting to annoy our customer base maybe it s because my lab buys sgis in onesies and twosies so we aren t entitled to a peek under the covers as the big kids nasa for instance are this lab and i suspect that a lot of other labs and organizations doesn t have a load of money to spend on computers every year so we can t be out buying new systems on a regular basis most sgi customers are onesy twosey types but regardless we rarely give a great deal of notice when we are about to introduce a new system because again like a previous post stated if we pre announced and the schedule slipped we would mess up our potential customers schedules when they were counting on the availability of the new systems on a particular date and would also look awfully bad to both our investors and the financial analysts who watch us most carefully to see if we are meeting our commitments the boxes that we buy now will have to last us pretty much through the entire grant period of five years and in some case beyond that means that i need to buy the best piece of equipment that i can when i have the money not some product that was built to paraphrase one previous poster s words to fill a niche to compete with some other vendor i m going to be looking at this box for the next five years and every time i look at it i m going to think about sgi and how i could have better spent my money actually your money since we re supported almost entirely by federal tax dollars five years is an awfully long time in computer years new processor technologies are arriving every years making a year old computer at least and probably generations behind the times the competitive nature of the market is demanding that rate of development so if your timing is really years between purchases you have to accept the limited viability of whatever architecture you buy into from any vendor there are some realities about the computer biz that we all have to live with but keeping customers happy is the most important so don t give up we know it josh joshua mogal product manager advanced graphics division advanced graphics systems silicon graphics inc market manager north shoreline blvd virtual reality mountain view ca interactive entertainment m s l tel fax e mail mogal sgi com
comp.graphics	rendering software for multi processor computer s hello i am searching for rendering software which has been developed to specifically take advantage of multi processor computer systems any pointers to such software would be greatly appreciated thanks billy carter software engineering section southwest research institute wcarter swri edu
comp.graphics	wanted map of the world type gifs hi can anyone direct me to map type gifs i am interesting in cartography and would find these gifs useful tia lee van dyke lvandyke balboa eng uci edu uucp infotec infotec com lee sunkist west sun com
comp.graphics	pov having trouble bump mapping a gif to a sphere hello i ve been trying to bump map a gif onto a sphere for a while and i can t seem to get it to work image mapping works but not bump mapping here s a simple file i was working with could some kind soul tell me whats wrong with this include colors inc include shapes inc include textures inc camera location direction up right look at object light source color white object sphere texture bump map gif surf gif note surf gif is a plasma fractal from fractint that is using the landscape palette map thanks in advance daniel daniel kennett dkennett sfu ca our minds are finite and yet even in those circumstances of finitude we are surrounded by possibilities that are infinite and the purpose of human life is to grasp as much as we can out of that infinitude alfred north whitehead
comp.graphics	point of intersection of n lines hi can anybody suggest robust algorithms code for computing the point of intersection on n d lines in a plane the data has outliers and hence a simple least squares technique does not seem to provide satifactory results please respond by e mail and i will post the summary to the newsgroups if there is sufficient interest thanks raj talluri member technical staff image understanding branch texas instruments central research labs dallas texas talluri csc ti com
comp.graphics	program included edge detection algorithms this program doesn t detect edges with compass operators and a laplacian operator it should output raw grey scale images with edges the output doesn t look like edges at all in novicee terms how do i correct the errors any improvements are welcome i ll even accept your corrected code if i convolve the input image with a digital gaussian by to remove noise will i get an improvement with the laplacian types of edge detection include stdio h include math h define imagewidth define imageheight unsigned char input image imageheight imagewidth unsigned char angles wanted imageheight imagewidth unsigned char magnitude image imageheight imagewidth int laplace op int compass op int compass op int compass op int compass op int compass op int compass op int compass op int compass op void compass row col int row col int value int op rows op cols int compass compass compass compass int compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass for op rows op rows op rows for op cols op cols op cols if row op rows col op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols if compass compass value compass else value compass if value compass value compass if value compass value compass if value compass value compass if value compass value compass if value compass value compass if value compass value compass magnitude image row col char value void laplace row col int row col int op rows op cols magnitude image row col for op rows op rows op rows for op cols op cols op cols if row op rows col op cols magnitude image row col char int magnitude image row col int input image row op rows col op cols laplace op op rows op cols main file original image fp file laplace mag fp laplace mag fp laplace mag fp file compass mag fp int row col algo count original image fp fopen input image rb laplace mag fp fopen laplace magnitude wb compass mag fp fopen compass magnitude wb fread unsigned char input image sizeof unsigned char imageheight imagewidth original image fp for algo count algo count algo count for row row imageheight row for col col imagewidth col if algo count laplace row col else compass row col if algo count fwrite magnitude image sizeof char imageheight imagewidth laplace mag fp else fwrite magnitude image sizeof char imageheight imagewidth compass mag fp for a lot of au music ftp sounds sdsu edu then cat file au dev audio ub library catalog telnet bison acsu buffalo edu when in doubt ask xarchie xgopher or xwais
comp.graphics	re virtual reality for x on the cheap hi steve as the author of multiverse i feel i had better respond to your mailnote questioning whether anyone had managed to compile this software the quick answer is yes the long answer is yes but a few have had a few problems with their platforms not all unix s are the same you know as far as many bugs go it would probably be more useful to everyone including you if you were a bit more explicit platforms it has succesfully compiled and run on are rs dec ultrix sun solaris so it is possible the main problem is that i don t have access to other platforms than the rs so if there are portability problems then the only way i hear about them is by people letting me know and giving me a clue as to how to fix it as far as the software not doing anything do you really think i would bother releasing it if that was the case perhaps you didn t read the few docs that are supplied the dogfight world is made up of clients only so if you re in there on your own then you re not going to see anything the dactyl world has quite a lot of scenary so if you don t see anything there then this is definitely a problem one final word if you re not interested don t bother with it if you are interested then please remember that i m not asking for any money so why not try a little patience and constructive criticism maybe that will get results robert robert acsc com
comp.graphics	re hot new d software i don t think speed has been determined since it has never run on intel chips but on the amiga s motorola chips it was one of the fastest true ray tracers i don t think impulse would port it over and not take speed into consideration in terms of features and learning curve all that you stated for ds is also true for imagine and lots more but i ll have to admit that after years of use on the amiga the learning curve is very steep this is due only to the manual it is realy bad however there is a lot of after market support for this product including regular tips articles in many magazines such as avid and a great book by steve worley called understanding imagine this book i is not just recommened it is a must i think an important consideration should be price for ds not including tool packages under for imagine complete
comp.graphics	re cylinder and ray sketch rotate so cylinder axis is z axis intersect x y projection of line with projected cylinder similar to but easier than sphere intersection result no intersection one intersection or two intersections parameterized along line by t and t now look at z and compute intersections of line with top and bottom planes of cylinder this gives t and t the interval of intersection is then the bit of the line from t t intersect t t details left as an exercise for the reader s spencer w thomas info tech and networking b cfob genome informatician univ of michigan ann arbor mi spencer w thomas med umich edu fax
comp.graphics	sphere from points boy this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that is center and radius exactly fitting those points i know how to do it for a circle from points but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in d i have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but am still at a loss please have mercy on me and provide the solution thanks ed ed bolson university of washington cardiovascular research bolson u washington edu preferred bolson max bitnet bolson milton u washington edu if you must
comp.graphics	announce ivan sutherland to speak at harvard the harvard computer society is pleased to announce its third lecture of the spring ivan sutherland the father of computer graphics and an innovator in microprocessing will be speaking at harvard university on tuesday april at pm in aiken computations building room the title of his talk is logical effort and the conflict over the control of information cookies and tea will be served at pm in the aiken lobby admissions is free and all are welcome aiken is located north of the science center near the law school for more information send e mail to eekim husc harvard edu the lecture will be videotaped and a tape will be made available thanks eugene kim give me a place to stand and i will internet eekim husc harvard edu move the earth archimedes
comp.graphics	windows imagine has anyone who has ordered the new pc version of imagine actually recieved it yet i m just about ready to order but reading posts about people still awaiting delivery are making me a little paranoid has anyone actually held this piece of software in their own hands later jim nobles
comp.graphics	vga mode h routines available hi there i ve made a vga mode h graphics library available via ftp i originally wrote the routines as a kind of exercise for myself but perhaps someone here will find them useful they are certainly useable as they are but are missing some higher level functionality they re intended more as an intro to mode h programming a starting point the library assumes a processor but it is trivial to modify it for a if enough people ask i ll make the mods and re post it as a different version the routines are written in assembly tasm and are callable from c they are fairly simple but i ve found them to be very fast for my purposes anyway routines are included to enter and exit mode h define a virtual screen put and get pixels put a pixmap rectangular image with no transparent spots put a sprite image with see thru areas copy areas of the virtual screen into video memory etc i ve also included a simple c routine to draw a line as well as a c routine to load a color gif image into a buffer i also wrote a quick n dirty tm demo program that bounces a bunch of sprites around behind three windows the whole package is available on spang camosun bc ca in pub dos vgl zip it is zipped with pkzip g it is completely in the public domain as far as i m concerned do with it whatever you like however it d be nice to get credit where it s due and maybe an e mail telling me you like it if you don t like it don t bother mark morley camosun bc ca
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac i searched the u mich archives fairly thoroughly for d graphics packages i always thought it to be a mirror of sumex aim stanford edu i was wrong i ll look into grafsys it does sound interesting thanks cheinan bobc
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library f sorry about not mentioning platform my original post was to mac programmer and then decided to post here to comp graphics i d like the d software to run on primarily mac in either c object pascal think or mpw but i ll port to windows later so a package that runs on mac and has a windows version would be ideal i m looking for a package that has low upfront costs and reasonable licensing costs of course bobc
comp.graphics	re sphere from points in article qkgbuinns n shelley u washington edu bolson carson u washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that is center and radius exactly fitting those points i know how to do it for a circle from points but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in d i have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but am still at a loss please have mercy on me and provide the solution wouldn t this require a hyper sphere in space points over specifies a sphere as far as i can see unless that is you can prove that a point exists in space that is equi distant from the points and this may not necessarily happen correct me if i m wrong which i quite possibly am steve steven collins email steve crl hitachi co jp visiting computer graphics researcher phone hitachi central research lab tokyo fax
comp.graphics	re sphere from points bolson carson u washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that is center and radius exactly fitting those points i know how to do it for a circle from points but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in d i have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but am still at a loss please have mercy on me and provide the solution it s not a bad question i don t have any refs that list this algorithm either but thinking about it a bit it shouldn t be too hard take three of the points and find the plane they define as well as the circle that they lie on you say you have this algorithm already find the center of this circle the line passing through this center perpendicular to the plane of the three points passes through the center of the sphere repeat with the unused point and two of the original points this gives you two different lines that both pass through the sphere s origin their interection is the center of the sphere the radius is easy to compute it s just the distance from the center to any of the original points i ll leave the math to you but this is a workable algorithm an alternate method would be to take pairs of points the plane formed by the perpendicular bisector of each line segment pair also contains the center of the sphere three pairs will form three planes intersecting at a point this might be easier to implement steve spworley netcom com
comp.graphics	rayshade to dxf rib etc strata i m a mac user who wants to use some of the rayshade models i ve built using macrayshade rayshade m with stratavision d since stratavision can import many different model files i thought this would be a cinch but i haven t been able to find a simple translator that will work on the mac any ideas stratavision d should be able to import dxf minicad super d swivel d professional out of the box and rib igs with externals also if anyone knows of any other translator externals available for stratavision d esp rayshade please e mail me btw i m going to send mail to the rayshade usrs mailing list tomorrow i misplaced the address but since most users of rayshade do not seem to operate with macs i m not getting my hopes up thanks in advance patrick hurh fnal fnal gov
comp.graphics	siggraph course notes i am looking for a copy of the following siggraph publication gomez j e comments on event driven annimation siggraph course notes if anyone knows of a location where i can obtain a copy of these notes i would appreciate if they could let me know thanks dkusswur falcon depaul edu
comp.graphics	cobra b video card help me does anyone out there in net land have any information on the cobra card the sticker on the end of the card reads model cobra b bios cobra v i havn t been able to find anything about it from anyone if you have any information on how to get a hold of the company which produces the card or know where any drivers are for it please let me know as far as i can tell it s a cga card that is taking up of my bit isa slots but when i enable the test patterns it displays much more than the usualy cga colors at least from what i can count thanks internet jele eis calstate edu bbs mirage gilligan tsoft net bbs mirage tsoft sf bay org mirage thetech com uucp apple com tsoft bbs mirage computer and video imaging major
comp.graphics	externel processes for d studio to all hi does anybody have the source code to the externel processes that comes with d studio and mabe som kind of doc for writing the processes your self lars author lars jorgensen p syntax bbs bad se syntax bbs denmark golded
comp.graphics	re text recognition software availability in article c ihqm v mentor cc purdue edu ab nova cc purdue edu allen b writes one more time is there any free ocr software out there i ask this question periodically and haven t found anything this is the last time if i don t find anything i m going to write some myself post here or email me if you have any leads or suggestions else just sit back and wait for me ab i m not sure if this is free or shareware but you can try to look to wsmrsimtel army mil directory pd msdos deskpub file ocr zip from the file simibm lst ocr zip b optical character recognition for scanners hope this helps roman valo valo cvt stuba cs slovak technical university bratislava slovakia
comp.graphics	re sphere from points in article qkgbuinns n shelley u washington edu bolson carson u washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq center and radius exactly fitting those points i know how to do it for a circle from points but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in d i have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but am still at a loss please have mercy on me and provide the solution off the top of my head i might try given p p p p find p c center of sphere determined by p p dist p c p i radius p c is the same distance from our four points so dist p c p dist p c p dist p c p dist p c p of course we can square the whole thing to get rid of square roots distsq p c p distsq p c p distsq p c p distsq p c p plug in the variables into the distance formula simplify and the x c y c and z c terms cancel out leaving you with three linearly independent equations and three unknowns x c y c z c solve using your favorite method all the best john dr john s eickemeyer the lord god is subtle information technology institute but malicious he is not national computer board singapore email johne iti gov sg albert einstein
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes wow a i d be very interested to get my hands on one of these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which is supposedly the next in the x lineup d the is a variation of the that was done a few years ago by the european partners of motorola it has some integrated i o controllers and half a mmu but otherwise it s a think of it the same as the and were burkhard neidecker lutz distributed multimedia group cec karlsruhe eerp portfolio manager software motion pictures berkom ii project multimedia base technology digital equipment corporation neidecker nestvx enet dec com
comp.graphics	avi file format hi would someone please email the new avi file format i m sure that many people would like to know what it is exactly thank you mark gregory lecturer m gregory rmit edu au ph fax royal melbourne institute of technology department of communication and electronic engineering p o box v melbourne victoria australia mark gregory lecturer m gregory rmit edu au ph fax royal melbourne institute of technology department of communication and electronic engineering p o box v melbourne victoria australia
comp.graphics	re vga x graphics mode dutc student tc umn edu writes in article c g qb bmp news cis umn edu some vesa bios s support this mode x and any vga should be able to support this x by colors since it only requires bytes my a vesa tsr supports this it s the only vesa mode by card can support due to a restrictions a wd paradise i am not responsible for anything i do or say i m just an opinion robert j c kyanko rob rjck uucp ahh no possibly you punched in the wrong numbers on your calculator color modes take a byte per pixel so time is which is k to be exact x x only takes k but i don t think it is a bios mode i wouldn t bet that all vga cards can do that either if a vga card has k i bet it can do both x and x that by definition is svga though not very high svga yes i did punch in the wrong numbers working too many late nites i intended on stating x is bytes it s not in the bios just my vesa tsr i am not responsible for anything i do or say i m just an opinion robert j c kyanko rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	cview answers a very kind soul has mailed me this reply for the bugs in cview since he isn t in the position to post this himself he asked me to post it for him but to leave his name out so here it comes cview has quite a number of bugs the one you mention is perhaps the most annoying but not the most dangerous as far as i can determine it has to do with the temp files that cview creates cview gives the user no control over where it places its temp files it just places them in its current directory the problem you mention occurs as far as i can tell when it runs out of disk space for its temp files it seems as if cview doesn t check properly for this situation as cview decodes a jpeg it seems to write out a temp file with all the pixel data with bit colour information then for bit displays it does the dithering again writing another file with the bit colour information while it is writing this second file it also writes the data to your colour card then when it does the last chunk of bit data it recopies all the data from the bit file to your screen again it does this last recopy operation for its fit to screen feature even when this feature is not enabled the result of this process is the following if it runs out of disk space when writing the first bit file all you ever see is as much data as it has room for and the last bit of data is simply repeated over and over again because cview never realizes the disk has filled up and disk writes reads aren t performed if it has enough room for the bit data but runs out of room for the bit data you see almost all of the picture as it does the dithering and writes to the screen card however then when it finishes the dithering and recopies the data from the bit file to screen for whatever reason it does this one again just gets a repetition of the last chunk of data for which there was room on the disk this is just a guess but probably fairly accurate at least the general idea is on track i think although i have probably made errors in details about file i o etc the way around this is of course to clear up sufficient disk space the temp files for large jpeg s x and bigger can be very large meg meg on some of the largest i have needed in excess of meg free disk space cview has a much more serious bug if you are trying to display a file from a floppy and you change floppies while cview has some temp file open on the floppy then cview in certain circumstances will write the directory and fat table i can t remember for the removed floppy onto the newly inserted floppy thus corruptimg the new floppy in a very serious possibly unrevcoverable way so be careful it is incredibly poor programming for a program to do this on the other hand when choosing files in the open files menu cview insists on doing a few disk reads every time one moves the hi lighter square incredibly annoying when it could do them all at once when it gets the directory info and really how much effort does it take to sort a directory listing with much thanks to the originator of this article rene walter renew stack urc tue nl will i drown in tears of sorrow is there hope for tomorrow will this world ever get better can t we all just live together i don t wanna live in strife i just wanna live my life i deserve to have a future the good girls future
comp.graphics	re alt raytrace potential group yes please create the group alt raytrace soon i m hooked on pov geez like i don t have anything better to do oh dave letterman is on
comp.graphics	shadow optical raytracing package hi everyone i am looking for some software called shadow as far as i know its a simple raytracer used in the visualization of synchrotron beam lines now we have an old version of the program here but unfortunately we don t have any documentation if anyone knows where i can get some docs or maybe a newer version of the program or even another program that does the same sort of thing i would love to hear from you ps i think shadow was written by a f cerrina anyone any ideas thanks gary serc daresbury lab
comp.graphics	character recognition is there any program available free or otherwise for taking a tiff or gif or some other bitmapped file and turning it or parts of it into ascii characters dos os or platform independent programs if possible thanks
comp.graphics	need a good concave convex polygon algorithm we need a good concave convex polygon conversion routine i ve tried a couple without much luck please e mail responses and i will post a summary of any replies thank you richard stoakley rws v uvacs cs virginia edu
comp.graphics	automatic layout of state diagrams hi i m hoping someone out there will be able to help our computer science project group we are doing computer science honours and our project is to do a graphical simulator for a finite state automata basically the program must draw a diagram of a fsa from a textual grammar showing circles for states and labeled arc s in between the problem is working out the best way to layout the states and draw the arc s in between so that as few arc s as possible cross each other if anyone has any suggestions algorithms bug free ready to compile c code that might help us it would be much appreciated thanks in advance gregory
comp.graphics	how do i compensate for photographic viewpoint and distortion hi to all out there we have this problem and i m not certain i m solving it in the correct way i was wondering if anyone can shed light on this or point me in the right place to look we have an x ray imaging camera and a metallic tube with a cylindrical hole passing through it at a right angle to the tube s axis image x ray source screen metallic tube we know source screen centre distance radius of the tube radius of the hole we do some calculations based on the image of the hole on the screen however the calculations are mathematically highly complex and must assume that the object s hole projects an image resembling an ellipse if the tube is not parallel to the screen in the centre of the screen however it is unlikely that the object is placed so conveniently firstly we must transform the major and minor axis of the ellipse i cannot know what the angle between the tube and screen is do i have to assume that they are parallel to do the transformation how do i do this transformation secondly there is a distortion of the image due to the screen being planar the source screen distance increases as we move away from the centre of the screen how can i compensate the ellipse s axis for this image distortion so please can anyone give us a few pointers here how do we transform the image so it appears as it would if it were in the centre of the screen and how do i deal with distortion due to the shape of the screen we d appreciate any help either posted or emailed thanks in advance simon simon marshall dept of computer science university of hull hull hu rx uk football isn t about life and death it s more important than that bill email s marshall cs hull ac uk phone fax shankley
comp.graphics	re sphere from points in article hcrlgw crl hitachi co jp steve hcrlgw steven collins writes in article qkgbuinns n shelley u washington edu bolson carson u washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that is center and radius exactly fitting those points i know how to do it for a circle from points but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in d i have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but am still at a loss please have mercy on me and provide the solution wouldn t this require a hyper sphere in space points over specifies a sphere as far as i can see unless that is you can prove that a point exists in space that is equi distant from the points and this may not necessarily happen correct me if i m wrong which i quite possibly am steve sorry call the four points a b c and d any three of them must be non collinear otherwise all three could not lie on the surface of a sphere and all four must not be coplaner otherwise either they cannot all lie on a sphere or they define an infinity of them a b and c define a circle the perpendicular bisectors of ab bc and ca meet in a point p say which is the centre of this circle this circle must lie on the surface of the desired sphere consider the normal to the plane abc passing through p all points on this normal are equidistant from a b and c and its circle in fact it is a diameter of the desired sphere take the plane containing this normal and d if d lies on the normal any plane containing the normal will do this plane is at right angles to the abc one let e be the point there are normally two of them on the circumference of the abc circle which lies in this plane we need a point q on the normal such that eq dq but the intersection of the perpendicular bisector of ed and the normal is such a point and it exists since d is not in the plane abc and so ed is not at right angles to the normal algorithm is the sphere well defined check that a and b are not coincident failure find the line ab and check that c does not lie on it failure find the plane abc and check that d does not lie in it failure yes find its centre find the perpendicular bisectors of ab and ac find their point of intersection p find the normal to the plane abc passing through p line n find the plane containing n and d find the point e on the abc circle in this plane if d lies on n take e as a find the perpendicular bisector of ed line l find the point of intersection of n and l q q is the centre of the desired sphere pictures in the plane abc a p b c at right angles to abc in the plane containing n and d e d line n p q numerically if ed ep then q will be very close to p relative to the radius of the abc circle and subject to error it s best to choose d so that the least of ad bd and cd is larger than for any other choice bob douglas computing services university of oxford internet bob oxford ac uk address banbury road oxford ox nn uk telephone
comp.graphics	polygon orientation in dxf hi i m writing a program to convert dxf files to a database format used by a d graphics program i ve written my program stores the points of a polygon in ccw order i ve used d concepts a little and it seems that the points are stored in the order they are drawn does the dxf format have a way of indicating which order the points are stored in cw or ccw its easy enough to convert but if i don t know which way they are stored i dont know which direction the polygon should be visible from if dxf doesn t handle this can anyone recommend a workaround the best i can think of is to create two polygons for each one in the dxf file one stored cw and the other ccw but that doubles the number of polygons and decreases speed thanks in advance for any help patrice hugo hydra unm edu
comp.graphics	fractals what good are they we have been using iterated systems compression board to compress pathology images and are getting ratios of to without too much loss in quality it is taking about mins per image to compress on a mhz but decompression is almost real time on a in software alone
comp.graphics	re a book i found graphics covlir crockett c its rpi edu locks writes hello i happened to spot an excellent book in a bookstore about days ago though it is in c and assembly it teaches you the assembly as it goes along so if you re like me and have no assembler experience don t worry it has almost everything that i wanted to know and has working code rod covlin i just bought a copy i can t disagree that it is a very good book but unfortunately i was looking for the same graphics feature described in this book but not in x x or x x mode it is easy to accomodate all the pixel descriptor or color attributes in those modes into a afffff but not in x x which is what i am interested in i haven t finish the book but i affraid the author didn t talk much about this mode or other svga modes if anyone out there know any good book dealing with fast svga graphics manupulation scrolling repainting all other good stuff please send me mail programming guide to svga card is also welcome thanks in advance tiang t foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu tiang t foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu
comp.graphics	speedstar how to program the truecolor mode hello i purchased my new with a noname graphics card installed which is obviously speedstar compatible its name is vga truecolor it is accompanied with some drivers and the utilities vmode xmode and at least one more mode as well as some drivers for lotus windows etc only one of the drivers is told to provide the truecolor mode namely the windows driver nowhere else except in the ad is any pointer to the truecolor mode some articles in this group about the speedstar and some other facts made me believe that my card is compatible to that one does anybody out there know how this mode can be adjusted how can i write a driver which allows me to have millions of colors with a resolution of x with hz interlaced greetings wolfgang
comp.graphics	info needed d contour plotting hi everyone it s spend the money before it goes away time here at u florida and we need to find some pc based software that will do contour plotting with irregular boundaries i e a d profile of a soil system with a pond superimposed on it we ve given surfer a pond trial run but it interpolates contours out into the pond and or creates artifacts at the borders soil if anyone out there knows of a product i ld appreciate hearing about it if there is enough of a response i ll post a summary thanks and now back to lurking steve bloom soil water science u fl sab gnv ifas ufl edu
comp.graphics	vesa standard vga svga programming hi i have a few question about graphics programming in vga svga how vesa standard works any documentation for vesa standard at a higher resolution than x x or x x vga mode where the video memory a affff is no longer sufficient to hold all info what is the trick to do fast image manipulation i heard about memory mapping or video memory bank switching but know nothing on how it is implemented any advice anyone my interest is in x x mode should this mode be called svga mode what is the technique for fast image scrolling for the above mode how to deal with different svga cards your guidance to books or any other sources to the above questions would be greatly appreciated please send me mail thanks in advance tiang t foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu tiang t foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu
comp.graphics	re sphere from points from bolson carson u washington edu edward bolson given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that is cnter and radius exactly fitting those points the equation of the sphere through the points x y z x y z is x y z x y z x y z x x x y y y z z z when this by determininant is expanded on its first column you get the equation in the form a x y z bx cy dz e if you need the center and radius jyst divide through by a it cannot be zero if the given points form a non degenerate tetrahedron and complete the square on x y and z to obtain x xc y yc z zc r rcb slacvm slac stanford edu bob beach
comp.graphics	re vesa on the speedstar i need a vesa driver for the diamond speedstar x that works i ve tried several and none work for the hicolor modes john cormack cormackj access digex com
comp.graphics	re delaunay triangulation in article lsk v inn c caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes does anybody know what delaunay triangulation is is there any reference to it is it useful for creating d objects if yes what s the advantage there is a vast literature on delaunay triangulations literally hundreds of papers a program is even provided with every copy of mathematica nowadays you might look at this if you are interested in using it for creating d objects article boissonnat author j d boissonnat title geometric structures for three dimensional shape representation journal acm transactions on graphics month october year volume number pages
comp.graphics	re rumours about do the does exist it s number was licensed to philips to make their own variant this chip includes extra featurfes such as more i o ports i c bus making it more microcontroller like because of the confusion with numbering philips other products in the range with the core have been given differend numbers like pcf or pcd or something
comp.graphics	gif to bmp i m not sure if this is the correct place to ask this question if not please forgive me and point me in the right direction does anybody know of a program that converts gif files to bmp files and if so where can i ftp it from any help would be greatly appreciated please respond via e mail as i do not read this group very often thanks scott
comp.graphics	point within a polygon in article apr uk bull co uk scrowe hemel bull co uk writes i am looking for an algorithm to determine if a given point is bound by a polygon does anyone have any such code or a reference to book containing information on the subject regards simon function puntbinnenpolygoon auteur cornelis wessels datum omschrijving bepaalt of de aangeboden vector d p binnen of op de rand van het polygoon p valt wijzigingen clibstatus puntbinnenpolygoon polygoon p vector d p vector d o v w index aantal snijpunten n n aantal snijpunten n geefpolygoonlengte p geefpolygoonrandpunt p n o for n n n n geefpolygoonrandpunt p n v if o x p x v x p x o x p x v x p x w x p x interpoleerlineair o v w if w x p x w y p y return clibsucces else if w y p y aantal snijpunten kopieervector d v o if aantal snijpunten return cliberbuiten else return clibsucces cornelis wessels krommenoord zt rotterdam the netherlands kewe bskewe atr bso nl
comp.graphics	re any graphics packages available for aix in apr sun x res utc com mark sun x res utc com mark stucky writes in pr qninniag tahko lpr carel fi ari suutari ari tahko lpr carel fi wrote does anybody know if there are any good d graphics packages available for ibm rs aix i m looking for something like dec s gks or hewlett packards starbase both of which have reasonably good support for different output devices like plotters terminals x etc try graphigs from ibm it is an excellent package doug doug egan it s not what you got lockheed engineering and sciences co it s what you give houston tx tesla email egan blkbox com
comp.graphics	re vesa standard vga svga programming how vesa standard works any documentation for vesa standard the vesa standard can be requested from vesa vesa north first street suite san jose ca ask for the vesa vbe and super vga programming starndards vesa also defines local bus and other standards the vesa standard only addresses ways in which an application can find out info and capabilities of a specific super vga implementation and to control the video mode selection and video memory access you still have to set your own pixels at a higher resolution than x x or x x vga mode where the video memory a affff is no longer sufficient to hold all info what is the trick to do fast image manipulation i heard about memory mapping or video memory bank switching but know nothing on how it is implemented any advice anyone vesa defines a window that is used to access video memory this window is anchored at the spot where you want to write and then you can write as far as the window takes you usually k windows have granularities so you can t just anchor them anywhere also some implementations allow two windows my interest is in x x mode should this mode be called svga mode what is the technique for fast image scrolling for the above mode how to deal with different svga cards this is vesa mode h there is a set display start function that might be useful for scrolling your guidance to books or any other sources to the above questions would be greatly appreciated please send me mail your best bet is to write vesa for the info there have also been announcements on this group of vesa software karl schultz schultz vnet ibm com these statements or opinions are not necessarily those of ibm
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes hi netters i m building a cad package and need a d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such as hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations it s really not that hard to do there are books out there which explain everything and the basic d functions translation rotation shading and hidden line removal are pretty easy i wrote a program in a few weeks witht he help of a book and would be happy to give you my source also quickdraw has a lot of d functions built in and think pascal can access them and i would expect that think c could as well if you can find out how to use the quickdraw graphics library it would be an excellent choice since it has a lot of stuff and is built into the mac so should be fast libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat i define myself tsa cellar org
comp.graphics	questions about plane eqn method of hidden surface removal what are the main advantages of this method i have seen it described and the algiorithm seems a little bit long i developed my own method which requires that the points be in a counter clockwise order and returns whether you are looking at the back or the front similar to the plane eqn method it uses few calculations however basically it is several comparisons the only disadvantage i see is that it must be done after the transformation from view coordinates to coordinates to display on the screen which means that a little more calculation isneeded beforehand my method basically figures out whether the points that will appear on the screen are clockwise or counterclockwise when looking at the back of something the points occur in an opposite direction from the front so merely by figuring out which way the points go you can tell whether you are looking at the back or front of a d polygon has anyone heard of this method before it is so simple i doubt i am the first to think of it libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat i define myself tsa cellar org
comp.graphics	reprints i have a few reprints left of chapters from my book visions of the future these include reprints of chapters probably of interest to readers of this forum including current techniques and development of computer art by franz szabo forging a career as a sculptor from a career as computer programmer by stewart dickson fractals and genetics in the future by h joel jeffrey i d be happy to send out free reprints to researchers for scholarly purposes until the reprints run out just send me your name and address thanks cliff cliff watson ibm com
comp.graphics	church related graphics i am looking for some good quality graphics files which are suitable for use in church related presentations i prefer vector but anything would be helpful if you know of bulletin boards which have collections of this nature or commercial products please inform me by email haston utkvx utk edu wayne haston
comp.graphics	pc fastest line circle drawing routines help hi all in short looking for very fast assembly code for line circle drawing on svga graphics complete i am thinking of a simple but fast molecular graphics program to write on pc or clones ball and stick type reasons programs that i ve seen are far too slow for this purpose platform class machine x or x vga graphics speed is important color for non rendering purpose is enough may stay at x for speed reason hope the code would be generic enough for different svga cards my own card is based on trident c not vesa what i m looking for fast very fast routines to draw lines circles simple shapes on above mentioned svga resolutions presumably in assembly languagine yes very fast please related codes to help rotating zooming animating the drawings on screen drawings for beginning would be lines circles mainly think of text else later you know the way molecular graphics rotates zooms a molecule and any other codes preferentially in c that can help the project final remarks non profit expected to become share free ware any help is appreciated thanks frankie lau tammy harvard edu ps pls also email i may miss reply post
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cd i s cpu doesn t help much either i understand it is a supposedly a variation of a running at something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites wow a i d be very interested to get my hands on one of these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which is supposedly the next in the x lineup d sean the exists ricardo the animation playback to which lawrence was referring in an earlier post is plain old quicktime with the compact video codec i ve seen digitized video some of apple s early commercials to be precise running on a centris at about fps very nicely bit color depth i would expect that using the same algorithm a risc processor should be able to approach full screen full motion animation though as you ve implied the processor will be taxed more with highly dynamic material sean mcmains check out the gopher phone university of north texas new bands info server fax p o box at seanmac acs unt edu e mail denton tx mcmains unt edu sean i don t want to get into a mini war by what i am going to say but i have to be a little bit skeptic about the performance you are claiming on the centris you ll see why please no flames i reserve those for c s m a i was in chicago in the last consumer electronics show and apple had a booth there i walked by and they were showing real time video capture using a radious or supermac card to digitize and make right on the spot quicktime movies i think the quicktime they were using was the old one they digitized a guy talking there in x xx something it played back quite nicely and in real time the guy then expanded the window resized to x by xx in y i think and the frame rate decreased enough to notice that it wasn t fps or about fps anymore it dropped to like fps then he increased it just a bit more and it dropped to fps then i asked him what mac he was using he was using a quadra don t know what model to do it and he was telling the guys there that the quicktime could play back at the same speed even on an lcii well i spoiled his claim so to say since a quadra mac was having a little bit of trouble and this wasn t even from the hardisk this was from memory could it be that you saw either a newer version of quicktime or some hardware assisted centris or another software product running the animation like supposedly macromind s accelerator don t misunderstand me i just want to clarify this but for the sake of the posting about a computer doing it or not i can claim x a tad more with overscan being done in colors in my computer not from the hardisk at fps with scala mm but i agree if we consider mpeg stuff i think a multimedia consumer low priced box has a lot of market i just think do would make it no longer cd i raist new a owner in x in y in colors from a bit palette i love it new low fat sig don t e mail me i don t have a valid address nor can i send e mail
comp.graphics	oak driver needed d studio hi i m looking for the d studio driver for the oak card with m of ram this would be greatly and i mean that appreciated maybe i should have just gotten a more well know card thanks seth acpub duke edu
comp.graphics	manipulating a hexagonal grid ok lets say youve got a grid of hexagons that go in a etc for a total of rows down that means there are hexagons in the st line lined up underneath in the second line lined up underneath in the third line lined up under neath in the fourht the problem is given the center of any arbritrary hexagon and a line with and arbritrary slope which hexagons does that line cross through the line doesn t necessarily have to cross through the center of other hexagon it can even be a tangent and count any helpers my friend was baffeled when trying to figure this w mohammad r khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail to mkhan nyx cs du edu
comp.graphics	re gif to bmp scott zabolotzky saz hook corp mot com wrote i m not sure if this is the correct place to ask this question if not please forgive me and point me in the right direction does anybody know of a program that converts gif files to bmp files and if so where can i ftp it from any help would be greatly appreciated please respond via e mail as i do not read this group very often thanks scott sorry scott if you post it here you can read it here there is a shareware program available via anonymous ftp that will suit your needs you ll find it at oak oakland edu in the subdirectory pub msdos graphics the file is called grfwk t zip tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	looking for a good book for beginners i wanted to know if any of you out there can recommend a good book about graphics still and animated and in vga svga thanks in advance mohammad r khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail to mkhan nyx cs du edu
comp.graphics	need some graphics help help i m trying to program my vga i ve got it working with in pascal with the following routines for mode h i ve got a vesa compatable trident c w meg and need to program in mode i don t care how many colors could someone take this code and help me write new procedures to replace them so that it ll work in or that d be great thanks here is the code i currently have for mode procedure graphmode begin videomode asm mov ah mov al h int h end end videomode procedure plotpoint x y c integer begin mem a x y c end david
comp.graphics	what is reverse or negative video i m interested in simulating reverse or negative color video mathematically what is the transform is it a simple reversal of the hue value in the hsv color space is it a manipulation in the yuv color space how is it related to solarization if you want to see something truly wild turn on the reverse video effect on a camcorder so equipped and point it at the monitor this creates a chaotic dynamical system whose phase space is continuous along rotation zoom focus etc very very surprising and lovely i d like to write a simulation of this effect without analog grunge thanks for any info you may have please e mail any info to me i ll post a summary thanks lance norskog thinman netcom com data is not information is not knowledge is not wisdom
comp.graphics	re need a good concave convex polygon algorithm in article c juyz aly murdoch acc virginia edu rws v uvacs cs virginia edu richard stoakley writes we need a good concave convex polygon conversion routine i ve tried a couple without much luck please e mail responses and i will post a summary of any replies thank you richard stoakley rws v uvacs cs virginia edu the problem is not precisely defined above but if you need to find the smallest convex polygon that encloses a given polygon then you are seeking the convex hull of your original polygon there are two ways to do this use a somewhat tricky but by now well examined linear time algorithm that exploits the polygon boundary or just feed the vertices of the original polygon to a convex hull routine and accept o n log n both methods are discussed in preparata and shamos for example
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac tsa cellar org the silent assassin writes rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes can you please offer some recommendations it s really not that hard to do there are books out there which explain everything and the basic d functions translation rotation shading and hidden line removal are pretty easy i wrote a program in a few weeks witht he help of a book and would be happy to give you my source i think he wanted to avoid reinventing the wheel i would suggest that you take your code and submit it to comp sys mac binaries to be distributed including to the ftp sites many folks myself included would enjoy the extra code also quickdraw has a lot of d functions built in and think pascal can access them and i would expect that think c could as well if you can find out how to use the quickdraw graphics library it would be an excellent choice since it has a lot of stuff and is built into the mac so should be fast just to clarify the d routines that are mentioned in various places on the mac are in a libray not the rom of the mac a few years ago before i knew anything about implementing graphics i came across a demo of the apple grafsys d library and it actually did a lot however it is quite limited in the sense that it s a low level d library your code still has to plot individual points draw each line etc ad nauseum it has nothing on gl for example where you can handle objects other things to consider when talking about apple s old d grafsys library unsupported never was and no plans exist to do so in the future undocumented unless you call header files documentation if one knows something about graphics you could probably figure it out but i d assume there s better software available that gives better output and is at the same time programmatically nicer i e easier to program just my tax brent
comp.graphics	grayscale printer we are interested in purchasing a grayscale printer that offers a good resoltuion for grayscale medical images can anybody give me some recommendations on these products in the market in particular those under thank for the advice
comp.graphics	wingcommanderii graphics i was wondering if anyone knows where i can get more information about the graphics in the wingcommander series and the realspace system they use i think it s really awesome and wouldn t mind being able to use similar features in programs thanks in advance daemon
comp.graphics	vision d site and email unavailable i used the information provided in the recent resource listings and tried to ftp to ccu aukland ac nz ftp mac architec vision d facet and received an unknown host message mail to paul d bourke pdbourke ccu aukland ac nz bounces with basically the same problem where d he go rick rick pavek never ask a droid to outdo its program kuryakin bcstec ca boeing com seattle wa it wastes your time and annoys the droid
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april plotting packages gnuplot it is one of the best and d plotting packages with online help it s a command line driven interactive function plotting utility for unix msdos amiga archimedes and vms platforms at least freely distributed it supports many terminals plotters and printers and is easily extensible to include new devices it was posted to comp sources misc in version plus patches you can practically find it everywhere use archie to find a site near you the comp graphics gnuplot newsgroup is devoted to discussion of gnuplot xvgr and xmgr ace gr xmgr is an xy plotting tool for unix workstations using x or openwindows there is an xview version called xvgr for suns collectively these tools are known as ace gr compiling xmgr requires the motif toolkit version and x r xmgr will not compile under x r motif x check at ftp ccalmr ogi edu in ccalmr pub acegr xmgr tar z motif version ccalmr pub acegr xvgr tar z xview version comments suggestions bug reports to paul j turner pturner amb ese ogi edu if mail fails try pturner ese ogi edu due to time constraints replies will be few and far between robot release d and limited d based on xview written in c fortran so you need a fortran compiler or the f c translator mainly tested on sun less on decstations check at ftp astro psu edu pub astrod vg plotting library this is a library of fortran callable routines at sunspot ceee nist gov xgobi it s being developed at bellcore and its speciality are multidimensional data sets analysis and exploration you can call it from the s language also and it works as an x client using the athena widget set or with an ascii terminal it s distributed free of charge from statlib at cmu to get it via e mail send email to statlib temper stat cmu edu and in the body area of the message put the line send xgobi from general if you want to pick it via ftp connect to lib stat cmu edu log in as statlib and use your e mail address as your password then type cd general mget xgobi warning it s about mb sources large postscript manual read the relevant readme to decide whether you need it or not pgplot runs on vax vms and supposedly on unix it s a set of fortran routines freely available though copyrighted and requiring a nominal fee of or so that includes contour plots and support for various devices including ps contact tjp deimos caltech edu ggraph host shorty cs wisc edu pub ggraph tar z unknown more details epigraph for pcs call dvj lab phys lgu spb su vladimir j dmitriev for details you can get the program demo or and play version if sent to budapest posta fiok hungary ph fax budapest ph multiplot xln for amigas shareware usd uk or aust advanced d package that has a big list of features contact dr alan baxter agb mbuc bio cam ac uk cambridge university department of pathology tennis court road cambridge cb qp uk athena plotter widget set this version v is based on gregory bond s version v beta added some stuff for scientific graphs i e log axes free scalable axes xy lineplots and some more and re added plotter callbacks from v e g to request the current pointer position or to cut off a rectangle from the plotting area for zooming in version v has a log of bugs fixed and a log of improvements against v beta additionally i did some other changes extensions besides origin and frame lines for axes subgrid lines on subtic positions line plots in different line types lines points lines points impulses lines impulses steps bars line styles solid dotted dashed dot dashed and marker types for data points legend at the right or left hand side of the plot optional drawing to a pixmap instead of a window layout callback for aligning axis positions when using multiple plotters in one application available at export lcs mit edu directory contrib plotter sciplot sciplot is a scientific d plotting and manipulation program for the next requires nextstep and it s shareware features ascii import and export eps export copy cut paste with data buffer free number of data points data buffer and document window selective open and save plotting in many styles automatic legend subviews linear and logarithmic axes two different axes text and graphic color support zoom normalizing and moving axis conversions free hand data manipulations cut edit move etc data editor sorting of data absolute relative and free defined error bars calculating with buffers background subtractions linear shirley tougaard bezier integration and relative integration fitting of one or more free defined functions linear regression calculations sin cos log etc function generator spline interpolation least square smooth and fft smooth differentiation fft esca calculations and database and something more you can find it on ftp cs tu berlin de pub next science sciplot tar z author michael wesemann scillerstr berlin germany mike fiasko rz berlin mpg de plplot plplot is a scientific plotting package for many systems small micro and large super alike despite its small size and quickness it has enough power to satisfy most users including standard x y plots semilog plots log log plots contour plots d plots mesh plots bar charts and pie charts multiple graphs of the same or different sizes may be placed on a single page with multiple lines in each graph different line styles widths and colors are supported a virtually infinite number of distinct area fill patterns may be used there are almost characters in the extended character set this includes four different fonts the greek alphabet and a host of mathematical musical and other symbols the fonts can be scaled to any size for various effects many different output device drivers are available system dependent including a portable metafile format and renderer freely available but copyrighted via anonymous ftp on hagar ph utexas edu directory pub plplot at present v plplot is known to work on the following systems unix sunos a ix hp ux unicos dg ux ultrix other platforms vms amiga exec ms dos os next authors many the main supporters are maurice lebrun mjl fusion ph utexas edu plplot kernel and the metafile xterm xwindow tektronix and amiga drivers geoff furnish furnish fusion ph utexas edu ms dos and os drivers tony richardson amr egr duke edu plplot on the next supermongo d plotting package at cmu filename re tmp sm tar z probably under the ftp cmu edu or andrew cmu edu machines gle gle is a high quality graphics package for scientists it runs on a variety of platforms pcs vaxes and unix with drivers for xwindows regis tek pc graphics cards vt s hp plotters postscript printers epson compatible printers and laserjet paintjet printers it provides latex quality fonts as well as full support for postscript fonts the graphing module provides full control over all features of graphs the graphics primitives include user defined subroutines for complex pictures and diagrams accompanying utilities include surface for hidden line surface plotting contour for contour plots manip for manipulation of columnar data files and fitls for fitting arbitrary equations to data mailing list glelist send a message to listserver tbone biol scarolina edu with a message boyd containing sub glelist your name maintainer dean pentcheff dean tbone biol scarolina edu image analysis software image processing and display pc and mac based tools multi platform software imdisp imdisp written at jpl and other nasa sites can do simple display enhancing smoothing and so on works with the fits and vicar pds data formats of nasa can read tiff images if you know their dimensions pc and macs labview labview is used as a framework for image processing tools it provides a graphical programming environment using block diagram sketch is the program with graphical elements representing the programming elements hundreds of functions are already available and are connected using a wiring tool to create the block diagram program functions that the block diagrams represent include digital signal processing and filtering numerical analysis statistics etc the tool allows any virtual instrument vi a software file that looks and acts like a real laboratory instrument to be used as a part of any other virtual instrument national instruments markets plug in digital signal processing dsp boards for macintoshs and pc compatables that allow real time acquisition and analysis at a personal computer new software tools for dsp are allowing engineers to harness the power of this technology the tools range from low level debugging software to high level block diagram development software there are three levels of dsp programming associated with the nb dsp board and labview use of the nb dsp analysis library ffts power spectra filters routines callable from think c and macintosh programers workshop mpw c that execute on the nb dsp board there is an analysis virtual interface library of ready to use vis optimized for the nb dsp use of the national instruments developers toolkit that includes an optimizing c compiler an assembler and a linker for low level programming of the dsp hardware this approach offers the highest level of performance but is the must difficult in terms of ease of use use of the national instruments interface kit software package which has utility functions for memory management data communications and downloading code to the nb dsp board this is the easiest route for the development of custom code ultimage concept vi concept vi by graftek france is a family of image processing virtual instruments vis that give labview described above users high end tools for designing integrating and monitoring imaging control systems a vi is a software file that looks and acts like a real laboratory instrument typical applications for concept vi include thermography surveillance machine vision production testing biomedical imaging electronic microscopy and remote sensing ultimage concept vi addresses applications which require further qualitative and quantitative analysis it includes a complete set of functions for image enhancement histogram equalization spatial and frequency filtering isolation of features thresholding mathematical morphology analysis density measurement object counting sizing and characterization the program loads images with a minimum resolution of by a pixel depth of or bits and one image plane standard input and output formats include pict tiff satie and aipd other formats can be imported image enhancement features include lookup table transformations spatial linear and non linear filters frequency filtering arithmetic and logic operations and geometric transformations among others morphological transformations include erosion dilation opening closing hole removal object separation and extraction of skeletons among others quantitative analysis provides for objects detection measurement and morphological distribution measures include area perimeter center of gravity moment of inertia orientation length of relevant chords and shape factors and equivalence measures are saved in ascii format the program also provides for macro scripting and integration of custom modules a d view command plots a perspective data graph where image intensity is depicted as mountains or valleys in the plot the histogram tool can be plotted with either a linear or logarithmic scale the twenty eight arithmetic and logical operations provide for masking and averaging sections of images noise removal making comparisons etc there are spatial filters that alter pixel intensities based on local intensity these include high pass filters for contrast and outlines the frequency data resulting from fft analysis can be displayed as either the real imaginary components or the phase magnitude data the morphological transformations are useful for data sharpening and defining objects or for removing artifacts the transformations include thresholding eroding dilating and even hole filling the program s quantitative analysis measurements include area perimeter center of mass object counts and angle between points gtfs inc bennett valley road c santa rosa ca iplab spectrum iplab spectrum supports image processing and analysis but lacks the morphology and quantitative analysis features provided by graftek franceus ultimage concept vi using scripting tools the user tells the system the operations to be performed the problem is that far too many basic operations require manual intervention the tool supports ffts arithmetic operations for pixel alteration and a movie command for cycling through windows macintosh based tools ncsa image ncsa paledit and more ncsa provides a whole suite of public domain visualization tools for the macintosh primarily aimed at researchers wanting to visualize results from numerical modelling calculations these applications documentation and source code are available for anonymous ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu commercial versions of the ncsa programs have been developed by spyglass spyglass inc devonshire drive champaign il fax nih image available at alw nih gov or preferably zippy nimh nih gov directory pub image it has painting and image manipulation tools a macro language tools for measuring areas distances and angles and for counting things using a frame grabber card it can record sequences of images to be played back as a movie it can invoke user defined convolution matrix filters such as gaussian it can import raw data in tab delimited ascii or as or byte quantities it also does histograms and even d plots it is limited to bits pixel though the bits map into a color lookup table it runs on any mac that has a color screen and a fpu or get the nonfpu version from zippy nimh nih gov photomac data translation inc locke dr marlboro ma photopress blue solutions marigold place thousand oaks ca pixeltools and tcl image complete family of pixeltools hardware accelerator and applications software for scientific image processing and analysis video rate capture display processing and analysis of high resolution monochromatic and color images includes c source code tcl image software package for scientific quantitative image processing and analysis it provides a complete language for the capture enhancement and extraction of quantitative information from gray scale images tcl image has over functions for image processing and contains the other elements needed in a full programming language for algorithm development variables and control structures it is easily extensible through script or indirect command files these script files are simply text files that contain tcl image commands they are executed as normal commands and include the ability to pass parameters the direct capture of video images is supported via popular frame grabber boards tcl image comes with the i view utility that provides conversion between common image file types such as pict and tiff perceptics pellissippi parkway knoxville tn satellite image workshop it comes with a number of satellite pictures raw data and does all sorts of image enhancing on it you ll need at least a mac ii with co processor a color display and a large harddisk the program doesn t run under system x ate v in the documentation the contact address is given as liz smith jet propulsion laboratory ms oak grove dr pasadena ca visualization workbench an electronic imaging software system that performs interactive image analysis and scientific d and d plotting paragon imagine lincoln st lowell ma adobe photoshop the tool supports rtrue colors with bit images or levels of grey scale once an image has been imported it can be rre toucheds with various editing tools typical of those used in macintosh based rpaints applications these include an eraser pencil brush and air brush advanced rpastes tools that control the interaction between a pasted selection and the receiving site have also been incorporated for example all red pixels in a selection can easily be preventing from being pasted photoshop has transparencies ranging from to allowing you to create ghost overlays rphoto editings tools include control of the brightness and contrast color balancing hue saturation modification and spectrum equalization images can be subjected to various signal processing algorithms to smooth or sharpen the image blur edges or locate edges image scaling is also supported for storage savings the images can be compressed using standard algorithms including externally supplied compression such as jpeg availlable from storm technologies the latest version of adobe photoshop supports the import of numerous image formats including epsf epsf tiff pict resource amiga iff ilbm compuserve gif macpaint pixar pixelpaint scitex ct tga and thunderscan adobe systems inc charlestown road po box mountain view ca colorstudio and imagestudio colorstudio is an image editing and paint package from letraset that has more features than adobe photoshop but is decidedly more complex and therefore more difficult to use several steps are often required to accomplish that which can be done in a single step using photoshop the application requires a great deal of available disk space as one can easily end up with images in the mb range the program provides a variety of powerful selection tools including the auto selection tool which lets the user choose image areas on the basis of color close hues color range and mask imagestudio don t know letraset usa eisenhower drive paramus nj dapple systems high resolution image analysis software provides processing tools to work with multiple images enhance and edit and measure a variety of global or feature parameters and interpret the data dapple systems w olive ave sunnyvale ca digital darkroom the latest release of digital darkroom has five new selection and editing tools for enhancing images one such feature allows the user to select part of an image simply by painting it a new polyline selection tool creates a selection tool for single pixel wide selections a brush lets the operator paint with a selected portion of the image note that this is not a true color image enhancement tool this tool should be used when the user intends to operate in grey scale images only it should be noted that digital darkroom is not as powerful as either adobe photoshop or colorstudio silicon beach software carroll ctr rd suite j san diego ca dimple it is compatible with system and system requires mac lc or ii series with colours with a recommended min of mb of ram it has the capability of reading erdas files functions include image enhancement d and contour plots image statistics supervised and unsupervised classification pca and other image transformations there is also a means image operation language or iol by which you can write your own transformations there is no image rectification however dimple is compatable with mapii the latest version is and it is in the beta stage of testing dimple was initially developed as a teaching tool and it is very good for this purpose dimple runs on a colour macintosh it is a product still in its development phase i e it doesn t have all the inbuilt features of other packages but is coming along nicely it has its own inbuilt language for writing programs for processing an image defining convolution filters etc dimple is a full mac application with pull down menus etc it is unprotected software process software solutions po box wollongong new south wales australia phone fax enhance enhance has a rrulers tool that supports measurements and additionally provides angle data the tool has over mathematical filter variations laplacian medium noise filter etc files can be saved as either tiff pict epsf or text however epsf files can t be imported microfrontier hickman road des moines ia image analyst an image processing product for users who need to extract quantitative data from video images image analyst lets users configure sophisticated image processing and measurement routines without the necessity of knowing a programming language it is designed for such tasks at computing number and size of cells in images projected by video cameras attached to microscopes or enhancing and measuring distances in radiographs image analyst provides users with an array of field proven video analysis techniques that enable them to easily assemble a sequence of instructions to enhance feature appearance count objects determine density shape size position or movement perform object feature extraction and conduct textural analysis automatically image analyst works with either a framegrabber board and any standard video camera or a disk stored image within minutes without the need for programming the image analyst user can set up a process to identify and analyze any element of a image measurements and statistics can be automatically or semi automatically generated from tiff or pict files or from captured video tape images image analyst recognizes items in images based on their size shape and position the tool provides direct support for the data translation and scion frame grabbers a menu command allows for image capture from a vcr video camera or other ntsc or pal devices there are types of files the image itself and the related sequence file that holds the processing measurements and analysis that the user defines automated sequences are set up in regions of interest roi represented by movable sizable boxes atop the image inside a roi the program can find the distance between two edges the area of a shape the thickness of a wall etc image analyst finds the center edge and other positions automatically the application also provides tools so that the user can work interactively to find the edge of object it also supports histograms and a color look up table clut tool automatix inc middlesex turnpike billerica ma iplab signal analytics corp maple ave e vienna va fax menu driven image processing software that supports bit color or pseudocolor grayscale image display and manipulation map ii among the mac gis systems map ii distributed by john wiley has integrated image analysis image from stanford try anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu it has pd source for image v and ready to run code for a mac under image v windows dos pc based tools ccd richard berry s ccd imaging book for willamon bell contains optional disks with image manipulating software source code is included erdas erdas will do all of the things you want rectification classification transformations canned user defined overlays filters contrast enhancement etc i was using it on my thesis then changed the topic a bit that work became secondary erdas inc buford highway suite atlanta ga fax rsvga i have been getting up to speed on a program called rsvga available from eidetic digital image ltd in british columbia its for ibm pc s or clones cheap about and does all the stuff erdas does but is not as fast or as powerful though i have had only limited experience with erdas i have used rsvga with of landsat bands and it is a good starter program except for the obtuse manual imagine it s a bit package i suppose for pcs called imagine or image the program does a modest amount of image processing add subtract multiply divide display and plot an x or y cut across the image it can also display a number of images simultaneously the company is compuscope in santa barbara ca pc vista it was announced in the august edition of pasp it is known to be available from mike richmond whose email addresses have been richmond bllac berkeley edu richmond bkyast berkeley edu and his s mail address is michael richmond astronomy department campbell hall berkeley ca the latest version of pc vista version includes not only the source code and help files but also a complete set of executable programs and a number of sample fits images if you do wish to use the source code you will need microsoft c version or later other compilers may work but will require substantial modifications to receive the documentation and nine double density k floppies or three quad density inch floppies m with everything on them just send a request for pc vista together with your name and a us mail address to office of technology licensing shattuck ave suite berkeley ca include a check traveller s checks are fine or purchase order for in u s dollars if your address is inside the continental u s or otherwise made out to regents of the university of california to cover duplication and mailing costs software tools it s a set of software tools put out by canyon state systems and software they are not free but rather cheap at about i heard it will handle most all of the formats used by frame grabber software mirage it s image processing software written by jim gunn at the astrophysics dept at princeton it will run on a pc among other platforms it is a forth based system i e a forth language with many image processing displaying functions built in data translation source book the data translation company in massachusetts publishes a free book containing vendors of data analysis hardware and software which is compatible with data translation and other frame grabbers surely you can find much more pc related stuff in it maxen a couple of canadians have written a program named maxen which does maximum entropy image deconvolution their company is named digital signal processing software or something like that and the software is mentioned in an article in astronomy magazine either jan or feb an article on ccd s vs film jandel scientific java another software package java is put out by jandel scientific jandel scientific koch road corte madera ca microbrian runs on an ms dos platform and uses a bit graphics card vista or an about to be released version will support a number of super vga cards its a full blown remote sensed data processing system it is menu driven character based screen but is does not use a windowed user interface its is hardware protected with a dongle mbrian micro barrier reef image anaysis system it was developed by csiro commonwealth scientific industrial organization and is marketed supported by mpa australia lusher road croydon victoria tel fax there are educational and commercial prices but be prepared to set aside a k for the first educational licence subsequent ones come cheaper they need to it has installed sites worldwide it is widely used at anu microimage the remote sensing lab here at dartmouth currently uses terra mar s microimage on pcs with some fancy display hardware terra mar resource information services inc landings drive mountain view ca fax unix based tools iraf image reduction and analysis facility developed in the national optical astronomy observatory kitt peak az it is free you can ftp it from tucana noao edu and complement it with stsdas from stsci edu email to iraf noao edu for more details apparently this is one of the de facto standards in the astronomical image community they issue a newsletter also they seem to support very well their users works with vms also last i heard and practically has its own shell on top of the vms unix shells it s suggested that you get a copy of saoimage for display under x windows very flexible extendable tons literally linear feet of documentation for the general user skilled user and programmer alv a sun specific image toolkit version posted to comp sources sun on dec also available via email to alv users request cs bris ac uk aips astronomical image processing system contact aipsmail nrao edu also see the usenet newsgroups alt sci astro aips and sci astro fits built by nrao national radio astronomy observatory hq in charlottesville va sites in nm az wv software distributed by track exabyte dat or non anonymous internet ftp documentation postscript mostly available via anonymous ftp to baboon cv nrao edu directory pub aips and pub aips text publ installation requires building the system and thus a fortran and c compiler this package can read and write fits data see sci astro fits and is primarily for reduction analysis and image enhancement of radio astronomy data from radio telescopes particularly the very large array vla a synthesis instrument it consists of almost programs that do everything from copying data to sophisticated deconvolution e g via maximum entropy there is an x based image tool xas and a tek compatible xterm based graphics tool built into aips the xas tool is modelled after the hardware functionality of the international imaging systems model display unit and can do image arithmetic etc the code is mostly fortran with some system c language modules and is available for suns ibm rs dec ultrix convex cray unicos and alliant with support planned for hp xx solaris and maybe sgi there is currently a project aips underway to rewrite the algorithmic functionality of aips in a modern setting using c and an object oriented approach whereas aips is proprietary code licensed for free to non profit institutions owner by nrao and the nsf aips will be in the public domain at some level as it is an international effort with contributions from the us canada england the netherlands india and australia to name a few laboimage version is out for x it s written in c and currently runs on sun xxx sun xxx os and under sunview the expert system for image segmentation is written in allegro common lisp it was used on the following domains computer science image analysis medicine biology physics it is distributed free of charge source code available via anonymous ftp at ftp ads com in pub vision list archive shareware laboimage contact prof thierry pun computer vision group computing science center u geneva rue du lac ch geneva switzerland phone fax e mail pun cui unige ch or pun cgeuge bitnet figaro it was originally made for vms and can be obtained from keith shortridge in australia ks aaoepp aao gov au and for unix from sam southard at caltech sns deimos caltech edu it s about mbytes on a sun khoros moved to the scientific visualization category below vista the real thing is available via anonymous ftp from lowell edu email to vista lowell edu for more details total size less than mbytes disimp device independent software for image processing is a powerful system providing both user friendliness and high functionality in interactive times feature description disimp incorporates a rich library of image processing utilities and spatial data options all functions can be easily accessed via the disimp executive this menu is modular in design and groups image processes by their function such a logical structure means that complicated processes are simply a progression through a series of modules processes include image rectification classification unsupervised and supervised intensity transformations three dimensional display and principal component analysis disimp also supports the more simple and effective enhancement techniques of filtering band subtraction and ratioing host configuration requirements running on unix workstations disimp is capable of processing the more computational intensive techniques in interactive processing times disimp is available in both runtime and programmer s environments using the programmers environment utilities can be developed for specific applications programs graphics are governed by an icon based display panel which allows quick enhancments of a displayed image manipulations of look up tables colour stretches changes to histograms zooming and panning can be interactively driven through this control a range of geographic projections enables disimp to integrate data of image graphic and textual types images can be rectified by a number of coordinate systems providing the true geographic knowledge essential for ground truthing overlays of grids text and vector data can be added to further enhance referenced imagery the system is a flexible package allowing users of various skill levels to determine their own working environment including the amount of help required disimp comes fully configured with no optional extras the purchase price includes all functionality required for professional processing of remote sensed data for further information please contact the business manager clough engineering group systems division chapel street south yarra australia telephone fax global imaging software we use global imaging software to process avhrr data from the dish to the final display select a chunk of five band data from a pass automatic navigation calibrate it to albedo and temp convert that to byte register it to predesigned window all relatively automatically and carefree it has no classification routines to speak of but it isn t that difficult to write your own with their programmer s module very small operation one designs one codes one sells been around for a number of years sold to weather service and navy runs on hp with hp ux supports bit display hips human information processing laboratory s image processing system michael landy co wrote and sell a general purpose package for image processing which has been used for basically all the usual image processing applications robotics medical satellite engineering oil exploration etc it is called hips and deals with sequences of multiband images in the same way it deals with single images it has been growing since we first wrote it both by additions from us as well as a huge user contributed library feature description hips is a set of image processing modules which together provide a powerful suite of tools for those interested in research system development and teaching it handles sequences of images movies in precisely the same manner as single frames programs and subroutines have been developed for simple image transformations filtering convolution fourier and other transform processing edge detection and line drawing manipulation digital image compression and transmission methods noise generation and image statistics computation over such image transformation programs have been developed as a result almost any image processing task can be performed quickly and conveniently additionally hips allows users to easily integrate their own custom routines new users become effective using hips on their first day hips features images that are self documenting each image stored in the system contains a history of the transformations that have been applied to that image hips includes a small set of subroutines which primarily deals with a standardized image sequence header and a large library of image transformation tools in the form of unix filters it comes complete with source code on line manual pages and on line documentation host configuration requirements originally developed at new york university hips now represents one of the most extensive and flexible vision and image processing environments currently available it runs under the unix operating system it is modular and flexible provides automatic documentation of its actions and is almost entirely independent of special equipment hips is now in use on a variety of computers including vax and microvax sun apollo masscomp ncr tower iris ibm at etc for image display and input drivers are supplied for the grinnell and adage ikonas image processors and the sun sun sun and sun i consoles we also supply user contributed drivers for a number of other framestores and windowing packages sun gfx sun console matrox vip iti ip lexidata macintosh ii x windowing system and iris the hipsaddon package includes an interface for the crs it is a simple matter to interface hips with other frame stores and we can put interested users in touch with users who have interfaced hips with the arlunya and datacube max video hips can be easily adapted for other image display devices because of hips is machine independent availability hips has proven itself a highly flexible system both as an interactive research tool and for more production oriented tasks it is both easy to use and quickly adapted and extended to new uses hips is supplied on magnetic tape in unix tar format either reel to reel or sun cartridge and comes with source code libraries a library of convolu tion masks and on line documentation and manual pages michael landy sharpimage software p o box prince street station new york ny voice fax msl cns nyu edu mira please don t confuse that with the thalmanns animation system from montreal these are altogether different beasts nfotis mira stands for microcomputer image reduction and analysis mira gives workstation level performance on dos computers using svga cards in color modes up to x mira contains a very handsome functional gui which is mouse and keystroke operated mira reads writes tiff and fits formats native formats of a number of ccd cameras and uncompressed binary images in byte short integer and byte real pixel format in or dimensions the result of an image processing operation can be short integer or real pixels or the same as that of the input image mira does the operation using short or floating point arithmetic to maintain the precision and accuracy of the pixel format over functions are hand coded in assembly language for maximum speed on the intel hardware the entire graphical interface is also written in assembly language to maximize the speed of windowing operations windows for d image and d image data display and analysis have dedicated cursors which read position and value value in real time as you move the mouse there are also smooth real time contrast and brightness stretch and panning of a magnified portion of the displayed image s all operated by the mouse a wide selection of grayscale pseudocolor and random palettes is provided and other palettes can be generated supported functions include such niceties as the following o image image interpolation o image constant o unary operations abs value polynomial of pixel value chs x log byteswap clip values at upper lower limits short real or real short o combine images by mean median mode or sum of pixel values with or without autoscaling to mean median or mode of an image section o convolutions filters laplacian sobel edge operator directional gradient line gaussian elliptical and rectangular equal weight filters unsharp masking median filters user defined filter kernel ellipse rectangle line gradient gaussian and user defined filters can be rotated to any specified angle o ccd data reduction flat fielding dark subtraction column over underscan bias removal remove bad pixels and column defects normalize to region target mean median or modal value o create subimage mosaic m x n d or d images to get larger image collapse d image into d image o plot d section or collapsed section of d image plot histogram of region of an image o review change image information header data rename keywords plot keyword values for a set of images o luminance photometry elliptical or circular aperture photometry brightness profile isophotal photometry between set of upper lower luminances area and luminance inside traced polygon interactive background fitting and removal from part or all of image fit elliptical aperture shape to image isophotes o interactive with d image contrast brightness x y or diagonal plot of pixel values distance between two points compute region stats centroid pan to x y location or image center zoom to times change cursor to rectangle crosshair full image crosshair or off and adjust cursor size on image select linear log or gamma transfer function or histogram equalization o interactive or specified image offset computation and re sampling for registration o interactive with d image zoom in x y or both in steps of or times current re center plot or enlarge a framed area plot buffers can be cycled through interactive data analysis polynomial fitting point deletion undelete change value point weighting linear and quadratic loess and binomial smoothing revert to unit point weights or original data buffer substitute results into data buffer for pass back to calling function dump data buffer overlays and error bars to file or printer change to user specified coordinate system o tricolor image combination and display hardcopy halftone printout to hp pcl compatible printers laserjet deskjet etc o documentation is over pages in custom vinyl binder cost usd copy available from axiom research inc box tucson az phone fax international marketing rep saguaro scientific corporation tucson arizona end of part of the resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april scene generators geographical data maps data files dems digital elevation models dems digital elevation models as well as other cartographic data huge is available from spectrum xerox com pub map contact lee moore webster research center xerox corp voice arpa internet moore wbst xerox com check also on ncgia ucsb edu pub dems nfotis many of these files are also available on cd rom selled by usgs scale digital line graph dlg data contains datas for all states price is about call to or visit in offices in menlo park in reston virginia usa maps the data user services division of the bureau of the census also has data on cd rom tso standard format that is derived from usgs map data call for more info or they have a bbs at from dr dobbs march the u s defense mapping agency in cooperation with their counterpart agencies in canada the u k and australia have released the digital chart of the world dcw this chart consists of over gigabytes of reasonable quality vector data distributed on four cd roms includes coastlines rivers roads railrays airports cities towns spot elevations and depths and over place names it is iso compatible and only available from u s geological survey p o box denver federal center denver co digital distribution services energy mines and resources canada booth street ottawa on k a e canada director general of military survey survey elmwood avenue feltham middlesex tw ah united kingdom director of survey australian army department of defense campbell park offices cp campbell act australia fractal landscape generators public domain many people have written fractal landscape generators for example for the mac some of these generators were written by pdbourke ccu aukuni ac nz paul d bourke many of the programs are available from the ftp sites and mail archive servers check with archie commercial vista pro for the amiga from virtual reality labs list price is about their address is vrl ganador court san luis obispo ca telephone or fax scenery animator also for the amiga is of the same caliber with vista pro check with natural graphics p o box raklin ca phone don t forget to ask about companion programs and data disks tapes vista pro has been ported to the pcs cia world map ii note this database is quite out of date and not topologically structured if you need a standard for world cartographic data wait for the digital chart of the world this m database has been produced from the defense mapping agency s oncs and will be available together with searching and viewing software on a number of cd roms later this summer check into hanauma stanford edu and ucsd edu see ftp list above the cia database consists of coastlines rivers and political boundaries in the form of line strokes also on hanauma stanford edu is a x array of elevation data containing one ieee floating point number for every half degree longitude and latitude a program for decoding the database mfil can be found on the machine pi arc umn edu there s another program which reads a compressed cia data bank file and builds a phigs hierachical structure it uses a phigs extension known as polyline sets for performance but you can use regular polylines ask joe stewart joes lpi liant com the raw data at stanford require the vplot package to be able to view it was posted in comp sources unix to be more exact you ll have to compile just the libvplot routines not the whole package ncar data ncar national center for atmospheric research has many types of terrain data ranging from elevation datasets at various resolutions to information about soil types vegetation etc this data is not free they charge from to or more depending on the data volume and media exabyte tape cartridge track tape ibm pc floppy and ftp transfer are all available their data archive is mostly research oriented not hobbyist oriented for more information email to ilana ncar ucar edu unc data tapes with voxel data there are public domain tapes with data for the comparison and testing of various volume rendering algorithms mainly mri and ct scans these tapes are distributed by the softlab of unc chapel hill softlab cs unc edu the data sets volume i and ii are also available via anonymous ftp from omicron cs unc edu in pub softlab chvrtd nasa many us agencies such as nasa publish cd roms with many altimetry data from various space missions eg viking for mars magellan for venus etc especially for nasa i would suggest to call the following address for more info national space science date center goddard space flight center greenbelt maryland telephone email address request nssdca gsfc nasa gov the data catalog not the data itself is available online internet users can telnet to nssdca gsfc nasa gov and log in as nodis no password you can also dial in at or baud bits no parity one stop at the enter number prompt enter md and carriage return when the system responds call complete enter a few more carriage returns to get the username and log in as nodis no password nssdca is also an anonymous ftp site but no comprehensive list of what s there is available at present earth sciences data there s a listing of anonymous ftp sites for earth science data including imagery this listing is called earth sciences resources on internet and you can get it via anonymous ftp from csn org in the directory cogs under the name internet resources earth sci some sites include aurelie soest hawaii edu pub avhrr images avhrr images ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc pub space index contains a listing of files available in the whole archive the index is about k by itself there s also an e mail server for the people without internet access send a letter to archive server ames arc nasa gov or ames archive server in the subject of your letter or in the body use commands like send space index send space shuttle ss capitalization is important only text files are handled by the email server at present vab larc nasa gov pub gifs misc landsat landsat photos in gif and jpeg format it was shut down nfotis anyone has a copy of this archive others daily values of river discharge streamflow and daily weather data is available from earthinfo central ave boulder co these disks are expensive around but there are quantity discounts check vmd cso uiuc edu the wx directory carries data regarding surface analysis weather radar and sat view pics in gif format updated hourly pioneer unm edu is the space and planetary image facility located on the university of new mexico campus ftp server it provides anonymous ftp access to cd roms with data images a disk with earthquake data topography gravity geopolitical info is available from ngdc national geophysical data center broadway boulder co eosat at least in the us now sells landsat mss data older than two years old for per scene and they have been talking about a similar deal for landsat tm data the mss data are bands meter resolution check out anonymous ftp to ftp ncsa uiuc edu in unix polyview alpha shape for a tool that creates convex hulls alpha shapes a generalization of the convex hull from d point sets the grips ii gov raster image processing software cd rom is available from cd rom inc at for code for viewing adrg arc digitised raster graphics files is available on the grips ii cd rom the u s army engineer topographic labs juan perez code is also available via ftp adrg zip archive in spectrum xerox com nrcc range data rioux m cournoyer l the nrcc three dimensional image data files tech report cnrc national research council canada ottawa canada from what i understand these data are from a laser range finder and you can a copy for research purposes d scanners digitized d data a cyberware labs monterey ca manufactures a d color laser digitizer which can be used to model parts of or a complete human body they run a service bureau also so they can digitize models for you address cyberware labs inc harris ct suite d monterey ca phone fax b polhemus makes a d input device actually a couple of models that senses position d and orientation d based on electromagnetic field interference this equipment is also incorporated in the vpl dataglove this hardware is also called isotrack from keiser aerospace ascension technology makes a similar d input device there is a company applied sciences that makes a d input device position only based on speed of sound triangulation c a company that specializes in digitizing is viewpoint you can ask for viewpoint s free page catalog full of ready to ship datasets from categories such as cars anatomy aircraft sports boats trains animals and others though these objects are quite expensive the cataloge is nevertheless of interest for it has pictures of all the available objects in wireframe polygon mesh contact viewpoint west center orem utah ph fax dataset some addresses for companies that make digitizers ascension technology bird flock of birds big bird d trackers p o box burlington vt phone fax polhemus incorporated digitizer d trackers p o box hercules dr colchester vt tel logitech inc red baron ultrasonic d mouse kaiser dr freemont ca tel w shooting star technology mechanical headtracker holdom ave burnaby b c canada v b w tel fax spaceball technologies inc spaceball d stationary input device suffolk street lowell ma tel fax tel in mountain view transfinite systems gold brick powerglove for macintosh p o box n mit branch post office cambridge ma tel email d applelink apple com vpl research inc eyephone head mounted display dataglove glove hand input device vpl research inc tower lane th floor foster city ca tel fax simgraphics engineering flying mouse d input device huntington rd suite a south pasadena ca background imagery textures datafiles first check in the ftp places that are mentioned in the faq or in the ftp list above bit scanning get a good bit scanner like epson s suggested is an scsi port for speed eric haines had a suggestion in rt news volume scan textures for wallpapers and floor coverings etc from doll house supplies so you have a rather cheap way to scan patterns that don t have scaling troubles associated with real materials and scanning area books with textures find some houses books magazines that carry photographic material educorp sells cd roms with various imagery also a wide variety of stock art is available stock art from big name stock art houses such as comstock uniphoto and metro image base is available in italy there s a company called belvedere that makes such books for the purpose of clipping their pages for inclusion in your graphics work their address is edition belvedere co ltd rome italy piazzale flaminio tel fax texture libraries a mannikin sceptre graphics announced textiles a set of x bit textures initial shipments in bit iff for amigas soon in bit tiff format algorithmically built for tiled surfaces srp is volume each volume images disks demo disks for are available contact mannikin sceptre graphics indiana ave winter park fl phone fax b essence is a library of sixty five new algoritmic textures for imagine by impulse inc these textures are fully compatible with the floating point versions of imagine imagine and even turbo silver written by steve worley for more info contact essence info apex software publishing el camino real suite menlo park ca usa what about texture city introduction to rendering algorithms a ray tracing i assume you have a general understanding of computer graphics no then read some of the books that the faq contains for ray tracing i would suggest an introduction to ray tracing andrew glassner ed academic press isbn note that i have not read the book but i feel that you can t be wrong using his book an errata list was posted in comp graphics by eric haines erich eye com there s a more concise reference also roman kuchkuda unc chapel hill an introduction to ray tracing in theoretical foundations for computer graphics and cad ed r a e earnshaw nato as vol f pp printed by springer verlag it contains code for a small but fundamentally complete ray tracer b z buffer depth buffer a good reference is procedural elements for computer graphics david f rogers mcgraw hill new york pages and c others more info is needed nfotis where can i find the geometric data for the a teapot displays on display column of ieee cg a jan has the whole story about origin of the martin newell s teapot the article also has the bezier patch model and a pascal program to display the wireframe model of the teapot ieee cg a sep in jim blinn s column jim blinn s corner describes an another way to model the teapot bezier curves with rotations for example are used the off and spd packages have these objects so you re advised to get them to avoid typing the data yourself the off data is triangles at a specific resolution around x x triangles meshing per patch the spd package provides the spline patch descriptions and performs a tessellation at any specified resolution b space shuttle tolis lerios tolis nova stanford edu has built a list of space shuttle datafiles here s a summary from his sci space list model a modified version of the newsgroup model model vertices useful i e referred to in the polygon descriptions polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors non existent units unknown simon marshall s marshall sequent cc hull ac uk has a copy he said there is no proprietary information associated with it model the newsgroup model in off format you can find it in gondwana ecr mu oz au file pub off objects shuttle geo hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics objects shuttle data model the triangles model this model is stored in several files each defining portions of the model greg henderson henders infonode ingr com has a copy he did not mention any restriction on the model s distribution model the nasa model the file starts off with a header line containing three real numbers defining the offsets used by lockheed in their simulations x offset y offset z offset from then on the file consists of a sequence of polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors closed units inches jon berndt jon l h jsc nasa gov seems to be responsible for the model proprietary info unknown model the old shuttle model the file consists of a sequence of polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex payload doors open units meters we have been using this model at star labs stanford university for some years now contact me tolis nova stanford edu or my supervisor scott williams scott star stanford edu if you want a copy image annotation software a touchup runs in sunview and is pretty good it reads in rasterfiles but even if your image isn t normally stored in rasterfile format you could use screendump to make it a rasterfile b idraw part of stanford s interviews distribution can handle some image formats in addition to being a macdraw like tool i m not sure exactly what they are you can ftp the idraw s binary from interviews stanford edu c tgif is another macdraw like tool that can handle x bitmap xbm and x pixmap xpm formats if the image you have is in formats other than xbm or xpm you can get the pbmplus toolkit to convert things like gif or even some macintosh formats to xpm tgif s sources are available in the pub directory on cs ucla edu version of tgif at patchlevel plus patch and patch d use the editimage facility of khoros see below this is just one utility in the overall system you can essentially do all your image processing and macdraw type graphics using this package e you might be able to get by with pbmplus pbmtext gives you text output bitmaps which can be overlaid on top of your image f ice requires sun hardware running openwindows it s a postscript based graphical editor and it s available for anonymous ftp from internet host eo soest hawaii edu requires sun c and two other locally developed packages the lxt library an xlib based toolkit and a small c class library all files pub ice tar z pub lxt tar z and pub ldgoc tar z are available in compressed tar format pub ice tar z contains a readme that gives installation instructions as well as an extensive man page ice a statically linked compressed executable pub ice sun z for sparc systems is also available for ftp all software is the property of columbia university and may not be redistributed without permission ice means image composition environment and it s an imaging tool that allows raster images to be combined with a wide variety of postscript annotations in wysiwyg fashion via x imaging routines and news postscript rasterizing g use imagemagick to annotate an image from your x server pick the position of your text with the cursor and choose your font and pen color from a pull down menu imagemagick can read and write many of the more popular image formats imagemagick is available as export lcs mit edu contrib imagemagick tar z or at your nearest x archive scientific visualization stuff x data slice xds bundled with the x distribution from mit in the contrib directory available at ftp ncsa uiuc edu either as a source or binaries for various platforms national center for supercomputing applications ncsa tool suite platforms unix workstations dec ibm sgi sun apple macintosh cray supercomputers availability now available source code in the public domain ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu contact national center for supercomputing applications computing applications building e springfield ave champaign il cost free zero dollars the suite includes tools for d image and d scene analysis and visualization the code is actively maintained and updated spyglass they sell commercial versions of the ncsa tools examples are spyglass dicer d volumetric data analysis package platform mac spyglass transform d data analysis package platforms mac sgi sun dec hp ibm contact spyglass inc p o box champaign il khoros patch available via anonymous ftp at pprg eece unm edu cd to pub khoros to see what is available it is huge mb but good needs unix and x r freely copied not pd complete with sources and docs very extensive and at its heart is visual programming khoros components include a visual programming language code generators for extending the visual language and adding new application packages to the system an interactive user interface editor an interactive image display package an extensive library of image and signal processing routines and d d plotting packages see comp soft sys khoros on usenet and the relative faq for more info contact the khoros group room eece dept university of new mexico albuquerque nm email khoros request chama eece unm edu macphase analysis visualization application for the macintosh operates on d and d data arrays import export several different file formats several different plotting options such as gray scale color raster d wire frame d surface contour vector line and combinations ffts filtering and other math functions color look up editor array calculator etc shareware available via anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu in the info mac app directory for other information contact doug norton e mail compuserve com iris explorer it s an application creation system developed by silicon graphics that provides visualisation and analysis functionality for computational scientists engineers and other scientists the explorer gui allows users to build custom applications without having to write any or a minimal amount of traditonal code also existing code can be easily integrated into the explorer environment explorer currently is available now on sgi and cray machines but will become available on other platforms in time bundled with every new sgi machine as far as i know see comp graphics explorer or comp sys sgi for discussion of the package there are also two ftp servers for related stuff modules etc ftp epcc ed ac uk swedishchef lerc nasa gov mirror of the uk site ape back in the old good days you could get ape for nearly free now has gone commercial and the following vendor supplies it taravisual corporation harrison avenue columbus ohio tel and fax cost plus tax runtime version with a site license for a single user at a time no limit on the number of machines in a cluster includes support maintenance and upgrades source code more additional user licenses the name of the package has become ape iii tm khoros is very similar to ape on philosophy as are avs and explorer avs see also comp graphics avs platforms convex cray dec evans sutherland hp ibm kubota set technologies sgi stardent sun wavetracer availability avs available on all the above for all unix workstations contact advanced visual systems inc fifth ave waltham ma telephone fax avs avs com email advanced visual systems inc for cray hp ibm sgi stardent sun convex for convex advanced visual systems inc or cray for cray dec for dec evans sutherland for evans sutherland advanced visual systems inc or ibm for ibm kubota pacific inc for kubota set technologies for set technologies wavetracer for wavetracer ftp site for modules data sets other info avs ncsc org wit in a nutshell it s a package of the same genre as avs explorer etc it seems more a image processing system than a generic scivi system imho major elements are a visual programming language which automatically exploits the inherent parallelism a code generator which converts the graph to a standalone program iconified libraries present a rich set of point filter io transform morphological segmentation and measurement operations a flow library allows graphs to employ broadcast merge synchronization conditional and sequencing control strategies wit delivers an object oriented distributed visual programming environment which allows users to rapidly design solutions to their imaging problems users can consolidate both software and hardware developments within a complete cad like workspace by adding their own operators c functions objects data structures and servers specialized hardware wit runs on sun hp xx sgi and supports datacube mv hardware allowing you to run your graphs in real time for a free wit demo disk call fax or e mail poon ee ubc ca us stating your complete name address voice fax e mail info and desired platform pricing wit for sparc one yr free upgrades days technical support us academic institutions discounts available contact logical vision ltd suite gilmore way burnaby b c canada v g m tel fax terry arden poon ee ubc ca vis d a system for visually exploring the output of d gridded data sets such as those made by weather models platforms sgi iris with vgx gtx tg or g graphics sgi crimson or indigo r elan graphics suggested irix x ibm rs with gl graphics aix version or later stardent gs and gs with truecolor display in any case or more mb of ram are suggested you can get it freely thanks to nasa support via anonymous ftp ftp iris ssec wisc edu or ftp then ftp cd pub vis d ftp ascii ftp get readme ftp bye note you can find the package also on wuarchive wustl edu in the graphics graphics packages directory read section of the readme file for full instructions on how to get and install vis d contact bill hibbard whibbard vms macc wisc edu brian paul bpaul vms macc wisc edu dataexplorer ibm platforms ibm risc system ibm power visualization server simd mesh i s mhz working on announced sgi hp sun contact your local ibm rep for a trial package ask your rep to contact david kilgore data explorer product marketing yktvmh kilcore wavefront data visualizer personal visualizer advanced visualizer platforms sgi sun ibm rs hp dec availability available on all the above platforms from wavefront technologies educational programs and site licenses are available contacts mike wilson mike wti com wavefront technologies inc east montecito street santa barbara ca fax wavefront europe guldenspoorstraat b gent belgium fax wavefront technologies japan f shinjuku sumitomo bldg nishi shinjuku shunjuku ku tokyo japan fax plot d and fast from nasa ames these packages are distributed from cosmic at least for fast ask pat elson pelson nas nasa gov for distribution information in general these codes are for us citizens only xgraph on the contrib tape of x r its specialty is display of up to data sets d ncar national center for atmospheric research one of the original graphics packages runs on sun rs sgi vax cray y mp decstations and more contact graphics information ncar scientific computing division p o box boulder co scdinfo ncar ucar edu cost edu unlimited users gov user users users com users multiply gov idl an environment for scientific computing and visualization based on an array oriented language idl includes d and d graphics matrix manupulation signal and image processing basic statistics gridding mapping and a widget based system for building gui for idl applications open look motif or ms windows environments dec vms and ultrix hp ibm rs sgi sun microsoft windows mac version in progress cost to educational and quantity discounts available see also comp lang idl pvwave the idl pvwave bundle contact research systems inc th street suite boulder co phone fax e mail info rsinc com demo available via ftp call or e mail for details idl sips a lot of people are using idl with a package called sips this was developed at the university of colorado boulder by some people working for alex goetz you might try contacting them if you already have idl or would be willing to buy it it s a few thousand dollars american i expect for idl and the other should be free those are the general purpose packages i ve heard of besides what terramar has sips was written for aviris imagery i m not sure how general purpose it is you would have to contact goetz or one of his people and ask i have another piece of software pcw that does pc and walsh transformations with pseudocoloring and clustering and limited image modification you can compute an image using selected components i ve used it on megabyte aviris images without problems but for the best speed you need an external dsp card it will work without it but large images take quite a while times as long to process that s a freebie if you want it my favorite is idl interactive data language from research systems inc idl is in my opinion much better and infinitely easier its programming language is very strong and easy very pascal like it handles the number crunching very well also personally i like doing the number crunching with idl on the vax or mathematica igor or even excel on the mac if it s not too hairy then bringing it over to nih image for the imaging part i have yet to encounter any situation which that combination couldn t handle and the speed and ease of use compared to iraf was incredible by the way it s mostly astronomical image processing which i ve been doing this means image enhancement cleaning up bad lines pixels and some other traditional image processing routines then for example taking a graph of intensity versus position along a line i choose with the mouse then doing a curve fit to that line which i might do like in kaleidagraph for idl call research systems for pv wave call precision visuals and for sips call university of colorado boulder from what i can understand you can get packaged programs from research systems though nfotis visual contact robert haimes mit fieldview an interactive program designed to assist an engineer in investigating fluid dynamics data sets platforms sgi ibm hp sun x terminals availability currently available on all of the above platforms educational programs and volume discounts are available contact intelligent light p o box fair lawn nj steve kramer kramer ilight com scian scian is primarily intended to do d visualizations of data in an interactive environment with the ability to generate animations using frame accurate video recording devices a user manual on line help and technical notes will help you use the program cost free source code provided via ftp platforms sgi d machines and ibm rs with the gl card z buffer where to find it ftp scri fsu edu pub scian a mirror is monu cc monash edu au pub scian scry from the readme scry is a distributed image handling system that pro vides image transport and compression on local and wide area networks image viewing on workstations recording on video equipment and storage on disk the system can be distri buted among workstations between supercomputers and works tations and between supercomputers workstations and video animation controllers the system is most commonly used to produce video based movie displays of images resulting from visualization of time dependent data complex d data sets and image processing operations both the clients and servers run on a variety of systems that provide unix like c run time environments and bsd sockets the source is available for anonymous ftp csam lbl gov pub scry tar z contact bill johnston wejohnston lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov johnston or david robertson dwrobertson lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov davidr imaging technologies group ms b lawrence berkeley laboratory cyclotron road berkeley ca svlib fvs svlib is an x windows widget set based on the osf open software foundation motif widget set svlib widgets are macro widgets comprising lower level motif widgets such as buttons scrollbars menus and drawing areas it is designed to address the reusability of d visualization routines and each widget in the library is an encapsulation of a specific visualization technique such as colormap manipulation image display and contour plotting it is targetted to run on unix workstations supporting osf motif currently only color monitors are supported since svlib is a collection of widgets developed in the same spirit as the osf motif user interface widget set it integrates seamlessly with the motif widgets programmers using svlib widgets see the same interface and design as other motif widgets fvs is a visualization software for computational fluid dynamics cfd simulations fvs is designed to accept data generated from these simulations and apply various visualization techniques to present these data graphically fvs accepts three dimensional multi block data recorded in ncsa hdf format iti gov sg pub svlib scientific visualization pu fvs these directories contain demo binaries for sun sgi cost us for academic and us for non academic institutions for each of the above items you re getting the source for the licence contact miss quek lee hian member of technical staff information technology institute national computer board ncb building sicence park drive singapore republic of singapore tel fax email leehian iti gov sg gvlware distribution bob an interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz a disk based movie player for the sgi icol motif color editor the army high performance computing research center ahpcrc has been developing a set of tools to work with large time dependent d and d data sets in the graphics and visualization lab gvl we are using these tools along side standard packages such as sgi explorer and the utah raster toolkit to render d volumes and create digital movies a couple of the more general purpose programs have been bundled into a package called gvlware gvlware currently consisting of bob raz and icol is now available via ftp the most interesting program is probably bob an interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz streams raster images from disk to an sgi screen enabling movies larger than memory to be played icol is a color map editor that works with bob and raz source and pre built binaries for irix are included to acquire gvlware anonymous ftp to machine ftp arc umn edu file pub gvl tar z to use gvlware mkdir gvl cd gvl zcat gvl tar z tar xvf more readme some bob features motif interface sgi gl rendering renders cubed data set in to seconds on a vgx alpha compositing and maximum value rendering in perspective only maximum value rendering on personal iris data must be a brick of bytes on a regularly spaced grid animation subvolumes subsampling stereo some raz features motif interface sgi gl rendering loads files to a raw disk partition then streams to screen requires an empty disk partition to be set aside script interface available for movie sequences can stream from memory like ncsa ximage some icol features motif interface easy to create interpolated color maps between key points rgb hsv and yuv color spaces multiple file formats communicates changes automatically to bob and raz has been tested on sgi sun dec and cray systems btw bob brick of bytes icol interpolated color raz just a name please send any comments to gvlware ahpcrc umn edu this software collection is supported by the army research office contract number daalo c with the university of minnesota army high performance computing research center iap imaging applications platform is a commercial package for medical and scientific visualization it does volume rendering binary surface rendering multiplanar reformating image manipulation cine sequencing intermixes geometry and text with images and provides measurement and coordinate transform abilities it can provide hardcopy on most medical film printers image database functionality and interconnection to most medical ct mri etc scanners it is client server based and provides an object oriented interface it runs on most high performance workstations and takes full advantage of parallelism where it is available it is robust efficient and will be submitted for fda approval for use in medical applications cost k for oem developer k for educational developer and run times starting at and going down based on quantity the developer packages include two days training for two people in toronto available from isg technologies airport road mississauga ontario canada l v s e mail rod gilchrist rod isgtec com molecular visualization stuff based on a list from cristy dupont com cristy which asked for systems for displaying molecular dynamics md for short flex it is a public domain package written by michael pique at the scripps research institute la jolla ca flex is stored as a compressed tar ed archive about mb at perutz scripps edu in pub flex it displays molecular models and md trajectories macmolecule for macintosh i searched with archie and the most promising place is sumex aim stanford edu info mac app and info mac art qt for a demo md display runs on sgi machines call terry lybrand lybrand milton u washington edu xtalview it is a crystallography package that does visualize molecules and much more it uses the xview toolkit call duncan mcree dem scripps edu landman hal physics wayne edu i am writing my own visualization code right now i look at md output a specific format easy to alter for the subroutine on pc s my program has hooks into gks if your friend has access to phigs for x pex and fortran bindings i would be happy to share my evolving code free of charge right now it can display supercells of up to atoms easy to change and up to time steps drawing nearest neighbor bonds between defining nn radii it works acceptably fast on a mhz icsg caesar cs montana edu i did a project on molecular visualization for my master s thesis using unix x motif which generates a simple point and space filling model kgngraf kgngraf is part of motecc look on malena crs it in pub motecc motecc info txt information about motecc in plain ascii format motecc info troff information about motecc in troff format motecc form troff motecc order form in troff format motecc license troff motecc license agreement in troff format motecc info ps information about motecc in postscript format motecc form ps motecc order form in postscript format motecc license ps motecc license agreement in postscript format ditolla itnsg cineca it i m working on molecular dynamic too a friend of mine and i have developed a program to display an md run dynamically on silicon graphics we are working to improve it but it doesn t work under x we are using the graphi lib of the silicon gr because they are much faster then x when we ll end it we ll post on the news info about where to get it with ftp will be free software xball v written by david nedde call daven maxine wpi edu xmol an x window system program that uses osf motif for the display and analysis of molecular model data data from several common file formats can be read and written current formats include alchemy chemlab ii gaussian molsim mopac pdb and msci s xyz format which has been designed for simplicity in translating to and from other formats xmol also allows for conversion between several of these formats xmol is available at ftp msc edu read pub xmol readme for further details insight ii from biosym technologies inc scarecrow the program has been published in j molecular graphics the program can analyze and display charmm discover yasp and mumod trajectories the program package contains also software for the generation of probe surfaces proton affinity surfaces and molecular orbitals from an extended huckel program it works on silicon graphics machines contact leif laaksonen leif laaksonen csc fi or laaksone csc fi multi ns niehs nih gov pub multi multi process molecular modeling suite mindtool it runs under sunview and requires a fortran compiler and sun s cgi libraries mindtool is a tool provided for the interactive graphic manipulation of molecules and atoms currently up to atoms may be input available via anonymous ftp at rani chem yale edu directory pub mindtool check with archie for other sites if that s too far i would also suggest looking at least in sgi s applications directory it contains many more packages nfotis gis geographical information systems software grass geographic resource analysis support system of the us army construction engineering research lab cerl it is a popular geographic and remote sensing image processing package many may think of grass as a geographic information system rather than an image processing package although it is reported to have significant image processing capabilities feature descriptions i use grass because it s public domain and can be obtained through the internet for free grass runs in unix and is written in c the source code can be obtained through an anonymous ftp from the office of grass integration you then compile the source code for your machine using scripts provided with grass i would recommend grass for someone who already has a workstation and is on a limited budget grass is not very user friendly compared to macintosh software a first review of overview documentation indicates that it looks useful and has some pixel resampling functions not in other packages plus good general purpose image enhancement routines fft kelly maurice at vexcel corp in boulder co is a primary user of grass this gentleman has used the grass software and developed multi spectral bands volumetric rendering full color on suns and stardents it was a really effective interface vexcel corp currently has a contract to map part of venus and convert the magellan radar data into contour maps you can call them at or email care of greg vexcel com host configuration requirements if you are willing to run a ux you could install grass on a macintosh which has significant image analysis and import capabilities for satellite data grass is public domain and can run on a high end pc under unix it is raster based has some image processing capability and can display vector data but analysis must be done in the raster environment i have used grass v on a sun workstation and found it easy to use it is best of course for data that are well represented in raster grid cell form availability cerl s office of grass integration ogi maintains an ftp server moon cecer army mil mail regarding this site should be addressed to grass ftp admin moon cecer army mil this location will be the new canonical source for grass software as well as bug fixes contributed sources documentation and other files this ftp server also supports dynamic compression and uncompression and tar archiving of files a feature attraction of the server is john parks grass tutorial because the manual is still in beta test stage john requests that people only acquire it if they are willing to review it and mail him comments corrections the ogi is not currently maintaining this document so all correspondence about it should be directed to grassx tang uark edu support listserv mailing lists grassu list amber cecer army mil for grass users application level questions support concerns miscellaneous questions etc send subscribe commands to grassu request amber cecer army mil grassp list amber cecer army mil for grass programmers system level questions and tips tricks and techniques of design and implementation of grass applications send subscribe commands to grassp request amber cecer army mil both lists are maintained by the office of grass integration subset of the army corps of engineers construction engineering research lab in champaign il the ogi is providing the lists as a service to the community while ogi and cerl employees will participate in the lists we can make no claim as to content or veracity of messages that pass through the list if you have questions problems or comments send e mail to lists owner amber cecer army mil and a human will respond microstation imager intergraph based in huntsville alabama sells a wide range of gis software hardware microstation is a base graphics package that imager sits on top of imager is basically an image processing package with a heavy gis remote sensing flavor feature description basic geometry manipulations flip mirror rotate generalized affine rectification affine nd rd th and th order models as well as a projective model warp an image to a vector map or to another image rgb to ihs and ihs to rgb conversion principal component analysis classification k means and isodata fourier xforms forward filtering and reverse filters high pass low pass edge enhancing median generic complex histogram contrast control layer controller manages up to images at a time user can extract single bands from a band image or create color images by combining various individual bands etc the package is designed for a remote sensing application it can handle very large images and there is all kinds of other software available for gis applications host configuration requirements it runs on intergraph workstations a unix machine similar to a sun though there were rumors there are always rumors that the software would be ported to pc and possibly a sun environment pci a company called pci inc out of richmond hill ontario canada makes an array of software utilities for processing manipulation and use of remote sensing data in eight or ten different industry standard formats lgsowg bsq landsat and a couple of others whose titles i forget the software is available in versions for ms dos unix workstations among them hp sun and ibm and vms and quite possibly other platforms by now i use the vms version the pci software consists of several classes groups packages of utilities grouped by function but all operating on a common pci database disk file the tape i o package is a set of utility programs which read from the various remote sensing industry tape formats into or write those formats out from the pci database file this is the only package i use or know much about other packages can display data from the pci database to one or another of several pci supported third party color displays output numeric or bitmap representation of image data to an attached printer e g an epson type dot matrix graphics printer you might be more spe cifically interested in the mathematical operations package histo gram and fourier analysis equalization user specified operations e g multiply channel by add channel and store as channel and god only knows what all else there s a lot i don t have and don t use these so can t say much about them you only buy the packages your particular application interest calls for each utility is controlled by from one to eight parameters read from a common parameter file which must be in vms anyway in your default directory some utilities will share parameters and use the same parameter for a different purpose so it can get a bit confusing setting up a series of operations the standard pci environment contains a scripting language very similar to ibm pc basic but which allows you to automate the process of setting up parameters for a common complicated lengthy or difficult series of utility executions in vms i can also invoke utilities independently from a dcl command procedure there s also an optional programming library which allows you to write compiled language programs which can interface with read from write to the pci data structures database file parameter file the pci software is designed specifically for remote sensing images but requires such a level of operator expertise that once you reach the level where you can handle r s images you can figure out ways to handle a few other things as well for instance the tape i o package offers a utility for reading headerless multi band what adobe photoshop on the macintosh calls raw data from tape in a number of different interleave orders this turns out to be ideal for manipulating the graphic arts industry s ct t format would probably i haven t tried handle targa and so on above all however you have to know what you re doing or you can screw up to the nth degree and have to start over it s worth noting that the pci database file is designed to contain not only raster image data but vectors for overlaying map information entered via digitizing table land use and all manner of other information i observe that a remote sensing image tape often contains all manner of information about the spectral bands latitude longitude time date etc of the original satellite pass all of this can go into the pci database i believe that on workstations the built in display is used on vax systems other than workstations pci supports only a couple of specific third party display systems the name gould deanza seems to come to mind one of my personal workarounds was a display program which would display directly from a pci database file to a peritek vct q q bus bit directcolor display subsystem pci software could be overkill in your case it seems designed for the very high end applications users i e those for whom a mac pc largely doesn t suffice although as you know the gap is getting smaller all the time it s probably no coincidence that pci is located in canada a country which does a lot of its land resource management via remote sensing i believe the canadian government uses pci software for some of its work in these areas spam spectral analysis manager back in jpl developed something called spam spectral analysis manager which got a fair amount of use at the time that was designed for airborne imaging spectrometer imagery byte data pixels across by lines by bands a modified version has since been developed for aviris airborne visual and infrared imaging spectrometer which uses much larger images spam does none of these things rectification classification pc and ihs transformations filtering contrast enhancement overlays actually it does limited filtering and contrast enhancement stretching spam is aimed at spectral identification and clustering the original spam uses x or sunview to display the aviris version may require vicar an executive based on tae and may also require a frame buffer i can refer you to people if you re interested pcw requires x for display map ii among the mac gis systems map ii is distributed by john wiley clrview clrview is a dimensional visualization program designed to exploit the real time capabilities of silicon graphics iris computers this program is designed to provide a core set of tools to aid in the visualization of information from cad and gis sources it supports the integration of many common but disperate data sources such as dxf tin dem lattices and arc info coverages among others clrview can be obtained from explorer dgp utoronto ca in the directory pub sgi clrview contact rodney hoinkes head of design applications centre for landscape research university of toronto tel email rodney dgp utoronto ca end of resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april many faqs including this listing are available on the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu in the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which a faq is archived appears in the archive name line at the top of the article this faq is archived as graphics resources list part there s a mail server on that machine you send a e mail message to mail server pit manager mit edu containing the keyword help without quotes in the message body you can see in many other places for this listing see the item places to find the resource listing for more information items changed re arranged the subjects in order to fir better in the k article limit i plan on changing headers soon so be careful only the resource listing keys are sure to remain in the subject line places to find the resource listing d graphics editors a public domain free and shareware systems plotting packages molecular visualization stuff i m thinking of making this post bi weekly what do you think lines which got changed have the character in front of them added lines are prepended with a removed lines are just removed use diff to locate these changes this text is c copyright of nikolaos c fotis you can copy freely this file provided you keep this copyright notice intact compiled by nikolaos nick c fotis e mail nfotis theseas ntua gr please contact me for updates corrections etc disclaimer i do not guarantee the accuracy of this document use it at your own risk this is mainly a guide for computer graphics software i would suggest reading the comp graphics faq for image analysis stuff it s entitled date comp graphics frequently asked questions faq john t grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov is the poster of the official comp graphics faq i have included my comments within braces and nikolaos fotis contents of the resource listing part places to find the resource listing archie notes computer graphics ftp site list by eric haines mail servers and graphics oriented bbses ray tracing graphics related mailing lists d graphics editors a public domain free and shareware systems b commercial systems scene description languages solids description formats part plotting packages image analysis software image processing and display part scene generators geographical data maps data files d scanners digitized d data background imagery textures datafiles introduction to rendering algorithms a ray tracing b z buffer depth buffer c others where can i find the geometric data for the a teapot b space shuttle image annotation software scientific visualization stuff molecular visualization stuff gis geographical information systems software future additions please send me updates info places to find the resource listing this file is crossposted to comp graphics comp answers and news answers so if you can t locate it in comp graphics you re advised to search in comp answers or news answers the latter groups usually are archived in your site contact your sysadmin for more info these articles are posted to comp graphics times a month and are kept in many places see below many faqs including this one are available on the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu in the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which a faq is archived appears in the archive name line at the top of the article this faq is archived as graphics resources list part there s a mail server on that machine you send a e mail message to mail server pit manager mit edu containing help in the subject field the inria graphlib mail server mirrors this posting see under the subject mail servers the resource listing is accesible through wais in the machine enuxva eas asu edu port under the name graphics resources list it s got a digest type line before every numbered item for purposes of indexing another place that monitors the listing is the maasinfo files for more info contact robert e maas rem btr com yet another place to search for faqs in general is the switch swiss academic and research network system in switzerland interactive telnet nic switch ch login as info move to the info service usenet periodic postings directory search in the index file by typing and the word to look for you may then just read the faq in the faqs directory or decide to fetch it by one of the following methods ftp login to nic switch ch as user anonymous and enter your internet style address after being prompted for a password cd info service usenet periodic postings mail send e mail to rfc archive server nic switch ch x s archive server ou nic o switch prmd switch admd arcom c ch enter help in the bodypart to receive instructions no information is required in the subject header line archie the archie is a service system to locate ftp places for requested files it s appreciated that you will use archie before asking help in the newsgroups archie servers archie au or aussie nz archie funet fi or finland eur archie th darmstadt de or ger cs huji ac il or israel archie kuis kyoto u ac jp or japan archie sogang ac kr or korea archie ncu edu tw or telnet twn archie doc ic ac uk or uk ireland archie sura net or usa md archie unl edu password archie usa ne archie ans net or usa ny archie rutgers edu or usa nj archie nz or new zealand connect to archie server with telnet and type archie as username to get help type help you can get xarchie or archie which are clients that call archie without the burden of a telnet session xarchie is on the x r contrib tape and archie on comp sources misc vol to get information on how to use archie via e mail send mail with subject help to archie account at any of above sites note to janet pss users the united kingdom archie site is accessible on the janet host doc ic ac uk connect to it and specify archie as the host name and archie as the username notes excerpted from the faq article please do not post or mail messages saying i can t ftp could someone mail this to me there are a number of automated mail servers that will send you things like this in response to a message there are a number of sites that archive the usenet sources newsgroups and make them available via an email query system you send a message to an automated server saying something like send comp sources unix fbm and a few hours or days later you get the file in the mail computer graphics ftp site list by eric haines computer graphics related ftp sites and maintainers compiled by eric haines erich eye com and nick fotis nfotis theseas ntua gr ray tracers rayshade a great ray tracer for workstations on up also for pc mac amiga pov son and successor to dkb trace written by compuservers for more questions call drew wells compuserve com or dave buck david buck carleton ca art ray tracer with a good range of surface types part of vort package dkbtrace another good ray tracer from all reports pcs mac ii amiga unix vms last two with x previewer etc rtrace portugese ray tracer does bicubic patches csg d text etc etc an ms dos version for use with djgpp dos extender go exists also as a mac port vivid a shareware raytracer for pcs binary only author stephen coy coy ssc vax boeing com the no source version is available to registered users us direct from the author ray steve hollasch s dimensional ray tracer renders hyperspheres hypertetrahedra hyperplanes and hyperparallelepipeds there s a separate real time wireframe viewer written in gl called wire mtv qrt dbw yet more ray tracers some with interesting features distributed parallel raytracers xdart a distributed ray tracer that runs under x there are server binaries which work only on decstations sparcs hp snakes x series and next the clients are distributed as binaries and c source inetray a network version of rayshade needs sun rpc or newer contact andreas thurnherr ant ips id ethz ch prt vm pray parallel ray tracers volume renderers vrend cornell s volume renderer from kartch devine caffey warren fortran radiosity and diffuse lighting renderers radiance a ray tracer w radiosity effects by greg ward excellent shading models and physically based lighting simulation unix x based though has been ported to the amiga and the pc india an indian radiosity package based on radiance sgi rad an interactive radiosity package that runs on sgi machines with a spaceball it includes a house database author guy moreillon moreillo ligsg epfl ch rad a simple public domain radiosity package in c the solution can be run stand alone on any unix box but the walk through requires a sgi d author bernard kwok g kwok cs yorku ca renderers which are not raytracers and graphics libraries sipp scan line z buffer and phong shading renderer now uses the shadow buffer algorithm tcl sipp a tcl command interface to the sipp rendering program tcl sipp is a set of tcl commands used to programmed sipp without having to write and compile c code commands are used to specify surfaces objects scenes and rendering options it renders either in ppm format or in utah raster toolkit rle format or to the photo widget in the tk based x applications vogle graphics learning environment device portable vogl an sgi gl like library based on vogle rend a fast polygon renderer for intel s and up version on up it s not photorealistic but rather a real time renderer xsharp dr dobb s journal pc renderer source code with budget texture mapping modellers wireframe viewers vision d mac modeler can output radiance rayshade files irit a csg solid modeler with support for freeform surfaces x d a wireframe viewer for x dv d wireframe graphics toolkit with c source dv objects other stuff look at major pc archives like wuarchive one such file is dkit zip pv d a shareware front end modeler for povray still in beta test french docs for now price for registering french francs save disabled some extra utilities dxf files for the registered version geometric viewers salem a gl based package from dobkin et al for exploring mathematical structures geomview a gl based package for looking and interactively manipulating d objects from geometry center at minnesota xyz geobench experimental geometry zurich is a workbench for geometric computation for macintosh computers wire gl wireframe previewer for steve hollasch s ray see above data formats and data sets for ray tracing spd a set of procedural databases for testing ray tracers nff simplistic file format used by spd off another file format p d a lispy file format tddd imagine d modeler format has converters for rayshade nff off etc also includes a nice postscript object displayer some great models ttdddlib converts to from tddd ttddd off nff rayshade imagine and vort d objects also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views in postscript registered users get a tex pk font converter and a superquadric surfaces generator glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com note ttdddlib is also known as t dlib chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets includes volume sets for two heads a brain a knee electron density maps for rna and others written material on rendering rt news collections of articles on ray tracing rt bib references to articles on ray tracing in refer format rad bib references to articles on radiosity global illumination speer rt bib rick speer s cross referenced rt bib in postscript rt abstracts collection by tom wilson of abstracts of many rt articles paper bank project various technical papers in electronic form contact juhana kouhia jk cs tut fi online bibliography project the acm siggraph online bibliography project is a database of over unique computer graphics and computational geometry references in bibtex format available to the computer graphics community as a research and educational resource the database is located at siggraph org users may download the bibtex files via ftp and peruse them offline or telnet to siggraph org and log in as biblio and interactively search the database for entries of interest by keyword for the people without internet access there s also an e mail server send mail to archive server siggraph org and in the subject or the body of the message include the message send followed by the topic and subtopic you wish a good place to start is with the command send index which will give you an up to date list of available information additions corrections suggestions may be directed to the admin bibadmin siggraph org image manipulation libraries utah raster toolkit nice image manipulation tools pbmplus a great package for image conversion and manipulation libtiff library for reading writing tiff images imagemagick x package for display and interactive manipulation of images uses its own format miff and includes some converters xv x based image display manipulation and format converter xloadimage xli displays various formats on an x screen khoros a huge excellent system for image processing with a visual programming interface and much much more uses x windows fbm another set of image manipulation tools somewhat old now img image manipulation displays on x screen a bit old now xflick plays fli animation under x xanim plays any resolution fli along with gif s including gif a animation extensions dl s and amiga iff animations j l and iff pictures including ham ehb and color cycling sdsc sdsc image tools package san diego supercomputing center for image manipulation and conversion clrpaint a bit paint program for sgi bit workstations and bit indigos libraries with code for graphics graphics gems i ii iii code from the ever so useful books spline patch tar z spline patch ray intersection routines by sean graves kaleido computation and d display of uniform polyhedra mirrored in wuarchive this package computes and displays the metrical properties of polyhedra author dr zvi har el e mail rl gauss technion ac il means site is an official distributor so is most up to date north america please look for things on your own continent first wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics get contents file for a roadmap graphics graphics objects tddd the ttddd objects and converters mirrors unix c graphics rayshade ray tracer mtv ray tracer vort ray tracer fbm pbmplus popi utah raster toolkit mirrors msdos graphics dkb ray tracer fli raytracker demos pub rad tar z sgi rad graphics graphics radiosity radiance and indian radiosity package msdos ddjmag ddj zip version of xsharp with fast texture mapping there s lots more including bibs graphics gems i ii code off rtn radiance nff sipp spline patch intersection routines textbook errata source code from roy hall s book illumination and color in computer generated imagery etc graphics graphics packages kaleido kaleido george kyriazis kyriazis turing cs rpi edu princeton edu pub graphics note capital g rayshade ray tracer and separate executable color quantization code spd rt news wilson s rt abstracts rt bib utah raster toolkit newer fbm graphics gems i ii iii code pub graphics directory salem and other stuff craig kolb cek princeton edu replaces weedeater math yale edu note the capital g in pub graphics because there s a trouble with princeton s incoming area you can upload rayshade specific stuff to weedeater math yale edu alfred ccs carleton ca pub dkbtrace dkb ray tracer pub pov ray pov ray pvray compuserve group ray tracer or pov david buck david buck carleton ca avalon chinalake navy mil d objects multiple formats utilities file format documents this site was created to be a d object repository for the net francisco x dejesus dejesus archimedes chinalake navy mil omicron cs unc edu pub softlab chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets ftp mv com official ddj ftp repository xsharp peipa essex ac uk the pilot european image processing archive in a directory ipa synth or something like that there are image synthesis packages adrian clarke alien essex ac uk barkley berkeley edu tcl extensions tsipp b tar z tcl sipp mark diekhans markd grizzly com or markd neosoft com acs cps msu edu pub sass x window fonts converter into rayshade polygons rayshade animation tool s ron sass sass cps msu edu hobbes lbl gov radiance ray trace radiosity package greg ward gjward lbl gov geom umn edu pub geomview geomview contact for geomview software geom umn edu ftp arc umn edu pub gvl tar z the latest version of bob icol and raz source a manual man pages and binaries for irix are included bob is a real time volume renderer pub contains also many volume datasets ken chin purcell ken ahpcrc umn edu ftp kpc com pub graphics holl steve hollasch s thesis pub graphics ray ray pub graphics wire wire pub mirror avalon mirror of avalon s d objects repository steve hollasch hollasch kpc com swedishchef lerc nasa gov programs hollasch d ray sgi explorer modules and postscript manual etc zamenhof cs rice edu pub graphics formats various electronic documents about many object and image formats mark hall foo cs rice edu will apparently no longer be maintaining it see ftp ncsa uiuc edu rascal ics utexas edu misc mac inqueue vision d facet based modeller can output rayshade and radiance files ftp ncsa uiuc edu misc file formats graphics formats contains various image and object format descriptions many scivi tools in various directories e g sgi alpha shape alvis tar z d alpha shape visualizer sgi machines only sgi polyview polyview z interactive visualization and analysis of d geometrical structures quincey koziol koziol ncsa uiuc edu tucana noao edu iraf the iraf astronomy package ftp ipl rpi edu sigma erich spd images and haines thesis images pub images various and bit image stills and sequences kevin martin sigma ipl rpi edu ftp psc edu pub p d p d tar p d lispy scene language renderers joel welling welling seurat psc edu ftp ee lbl gov pbmplus tar z rayshade data files jef poskanzer jef ace ee lbl gov george lbl gov pub ccs lib ccs tar z ccs complex conversion system a standard software interface for image processing hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics best of comp graphics very extensive ray tracers dbw mtv qrt and more joe dellinger joe hanauma stanford edu ftp uu net graphics irit rt news back issues not complete nurbs models other graphics related material graphics jpeg jpegsrc v tar z independent jpeg group package for reading and writing jpeg files freebie engin umich edu utah raster toolkit spencer thomas thomas eecs umich edu export lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus image magick xloadimage xli xv img lots more pub r untarred mit demos gpc ncga graphics performance characterization gpc suite life pawl rpi edu pub ray kyriazis stochastic ray tracer george kyriazis kyriazis turing cs rpi edu cs utah edu pub utah raster toolkit nurbs databases jamie painter jamie cs utah edu gatekeeper dec com pub dec off tar z off models also gpc benchmark files planned but not checked randi rost rost kpc com hubcap clemson edu pub amiga incoming imagine stuff for the amiga imagine turbo silver ray tracers pub amiga ttdddlib ttdddlib pub amiga incoming imagine objects many objects glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com pprg eece unm edu pub khoros khoros image processing package huge but great danielle argiro danielle bullwinkle unm edu expo lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus portable bitmap package poskbitmaptars bitmap collection raveling img xloadimage jef poskanzer jef well sf ca us venera isi edu pub img tar z and img tar z some image manipulation pub images rgb separation photos paul raveling raveling venera isi edu ucsd edu graphics utah rle toolkit pbmplus fbm databases mtv dbw and other ray tracers world map other stuff not updated much recently castlab engr wisc edu pub x d tar z x d pub xdart xdart mark spychalla spy castlab engr wisc edu sgi com graphics tiff tiff spec libtiff software and pics also much sgi and gl related stuff e g opengl manuals sam leffler sam sgi com supercedes okeeffe berkeley edu for the libtiff stuff surya waterloo edu graphics fbm ray tracers ftp sdsc edu sdscpub sdsc ftp brl mil brl cad information on how to get the brl cad package ray tracer images various test images a texture library has also begun here lee a butler butler brl mil cicero cs umass edu texture temp x grayscale brodatz textures from julien flack julien scs leeds ac uk karazm math uh edu pub graphics rtabs shar z wilson s rt abstracts vm pray j eric townsend jet karazm math uh edu or jet nas nasa gov ftp pitt edu users qralston images bit image archive small james ralston crawford qralston gl pitt edu ftp tc cornell edu pub vis vrend sunee waterloo edu pub raytracers vivid rend or sunee uwaterloo ca archive umich edu msdos graphics pc graphics stuff msdos graphics raytrace vivid apple apple com pub archivevol prt research att com netlib graphics spd package polyhedra polyhedra databases if you don t have ftp use the netlib automatic mail replier uucp research netlib internet netlib ornl gov send one line message send index for more info send haines from graphics to get the spd siggraph org siggraph archive site publications online bibliography project conference proceedings in various electronic formats papers panels siggraph video review information and order forms other stuff in various directories automatic mailer is archive server siggraph org send index ftp cs unc edu pub reaction diffusion greg turk s work on reaction diffusion textures x windows code siggraph avs ncsc org ftp volvis volume datasets from the boston workshop on volume visualization this site is also the international avs center terry myerson tvv ncsc org uvacs cs virginia edu pub suit demo sparc dec etc suit simple user interface toolkit finger suit uvacs cs virginia edu to get detailed instructions nexus yorku ca pub reports radiosity code tar z rad pub reports radiosity thesis ps z rad msc thesis this site will be changed to ftp yorku ca in the near future milton u washington edu ftp public veos veos virtual reality and distributed applications prototyping environment for unix veos software support veos support hitl washington edu oldpublic fly fly d visualization software demo that package is built for fly throughs from various datasets in near real time there are binaries for many platforms also much other virtual reality stuff zug csmil umich edu x xpecs d files an lcd glass shutter for amiga computers great for vr stuff sugrfx acs syr edu various stereo pair images has closed down sunsite unc edu pub academic computer science virtual reality final copy of the sugrfx acs syr edu archive that ceased to exist it contains powerglove code vr papers d images and irc research material jonathan magid jem sunsite unc edu archive cis ohio state edu pub siggraph code for siggraph course procedural modeling and rendering techniques dr david s ebert ebert cis ohio state edu lyapunov ucsd edu this machine is considered the repository for preprints and programs for nonlinear dynamics signal processing and related subjects and fractals of course matt kennel mbk inls ucsd edu cod nosc mil pub grid ps tex ascii a short survey of methods to interpolate and contour bivariate data ics uci edu honig various stereo pair images movie c animates a movie on an x display bit and mono with digital subtraction taurus cs nps navy mil pub dabro cyberware demo tar z human head data pioneer unm edu pub texture maps hans du buf s grayscale test textures aerial swatches brodatz textures synthetic swatches space planetary image repository provides access to cd roms with data images on line at a time pub info beginner info here you should start browsing colby kraybill opus pioneer unm edu cs brown edu srgp sphigs for more info on srgp sphigs mail s software distribution graphtext cs brown edu pdb pdb bnl gov has data about various organic molecules bonds between the different atoms etc atomic coordinates and a load of other stuff are contained in the ent files but the actual atomic dimemsions seem to be missing you could convert these data to pov rayshade etc biome bio ns ca pub art some renoir paintings escher s pictures etc ic ee umanitoba ca specmark sample set of images from the images from the edge cd rom images of atomic landscapes advanced semiconductors superconductors and experimental surface chemistry among others contact ruskin ee umanitoba ca explorer dgp toronto edu pub sgi clrpaint clrpaint pub sgi clrview clrview a tool that aids in visualization of gis datasets in may formats like dxf dem arc info etc ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc get pub space index first pub spacelink has most of the spacelink service data see below e mail server available send mail to archive server ames arc nasa gov or ames archive server with subject help or send space index without the quotes peter yee yee ames arc nasa gov pubinfo jpl nasa gov images other data etc from jpl missions modem access at no parity data bits stop bit newsdesk jplpost jpl nasa gov or phone spacelink msfc nasa gov passwd guest space graphics and gif images from nasa s planetary probes and the hubble telescope main function is support for teachers you can telnet also to this site dial up access v baud bits no parity stop bit stsci edu hubble space telescope stuff images and other data read the readme first pete reppert reppert stsci edu or chris o dea odea stsci edu pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers the land of faqs graphics and pictures directories of particular interest also available from mail server pit manager mit edu by sending a mail message containing help uucp archive avatar rt news back issues for details write kory hamzeh kory avatar avatar com europe nic funet fi pub sci papers paper bank project including pete shirley s entire thesis with pics wilson s rt abstracts pub misc cia worldmap cia world data bank comp graphics research archive india and much much more juhana kouhia jk cs tut fi dasun epfl ch radiance good for european sites but doesn t carry the add ons that are available for radiance isy liu se pub sipp sipp tar z sipp scan line z buffer and phong shading renderer jonas yngvesson jonas y isy liu se irisa fr ipsc vm pray ray tracer spd nff many non spd nff format scenes rayshade data files didier badouel badouel irisa irisa fr may have disappeared phoenix oulu fi fli raytracker animation files pc vga also big flis rayscene demos americans check wuarchive first more animations to come jari kahkonen hole phoenix oulu fi jyu fi pub graphics ray traces many ray tracers including vm pray dbw dkb mtv qrt rayshade some rt news nff files jari toivanen toivanen jyu fi garbo uwasa fi much pc stuff etc pc source contour f fortran program to contour scattered data using linear triangle based interpolation asterix inescn pt pub rtrace rtrace nffutils tar z nff utilities for rtrace medical data cat etc converters to nff autocad to nff autolisp code autocad to scn rtrace s language converter and other goodies antonio costa acc asterix inescn pt vega hut fi graphics rtn archive ray tracers mtv qrt others nff some models it was shut down months ago check under nic funet fi nfotis sun nl nluug nl pub graphics raytrace dbw microray mtv etc unix hensa ac uk misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar z cgm viewer and converter there s an e mail server also mail to archive unix hensa ac uk with the message body send misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar z maeglin mt luth se graphics raytracing prt others doc wilson s rt abstracts vivid ftp fu berlin de pub unix graphics rayshade inputs aq tar z is rayshade aquarium americans check princeton edu first heiko schlichting heiko math fu berlin de maggia ethz ch pub inetray inetray and sun rpc code andreas thurnherr ant ips id ethz ch osgiliath id dth dk pub amiga graphics radiance amiga port of radiance per bojsen bojsen ithil id dth dk ftp informatik uni oldenburg de pov raytracer mirrored in wuarchive has many goods for pov pub dkbtrace incoming polyray polyray raytracer pub dkbtrace incoming pv d pv d ftp uni kl de pub amiga raytracing imagine mirror of the hubcap imagine files neptune inf ethz ch xyz xyz geobench peter schorn schorn inf ethz ch iamsun unibe ch graphics graphtal a l system interpreter christoph streit streit iam unibe ch amiga physik unizh ch amiga gfx graphics stuff for the amiga computer stesis hq eso org on line access to a huge astronomical database login starcat no passwd decnet stesis it s the space telescope european coordination facility benoit pirenne bpirenne eso org phone middle east gauss technion ac il kaleida australia gondwana ecr mu oz au pub vort art ray tracer vogle wilson s ray tracing abstracts pub contrib artscenes art scenes from italy pub images haines haines thesis images graphics gems code spd nff off databases nff and off previewers plus some and bit images and lots of other stuff pub rad tar z sgi rad bernie kirby bernie ecr mu oz au munnari oz au pub graphics vort tar z vort art csg and algebraic surface ray tracer vogle pub dbw pbmplus graphics room tar z art scenes from italy david hook dgh munnari oz au marsh cs curtin edu au pub graphics bibliography facial animation pub graphics bibliography morph pub graphics bibliography ui stuff about facial animation morphing and user interfaces pub fascia fred parke s fascia program valerie hall val lillee cs curtin edu au oceania asia ccu aukland ac nz ftp mac architec vision d facet based modeller can output rayshade files many other neat things for macs paul bourke pdbourke ccu aukland ac nz scslwide sony co jp ftp sgi facial animation steve franks site for facial animation steve franks stevef csl sony co jp or stevef cs umr edu mail servers and graphics oriented bbses please check first with the ftp places above with archie s help don t overuse mail servers there are some troubles with wrong return addresses many of these mail servers have a command like path a valid return e mail address to get a hint for sending back to you stuff dec s ftpmail send a one line message to ftpmail decwrl dec com without a subject field and having a line containing the word help you should get back a message detailing the relevant procedures you must follow in order to get the files you want note that the reply or answer command in your mailer will not work for this message or any other mail you receive from ftpmail to send requests to ftpmail send an original mail message not a reply complaints should be sent to the ftpmail request uucp gw pa dec com address rather than to postmaster since decwrl s postmaster is not responsible for fixing ftpmail problems bitftp for bitnet sites only there s bitftp pucc send a one line help message to this address for more info lightwave d mail based file server a mail based file server for d objects bit jpeg images gif images and image maps is now online for all those with internet mail access the server is the official archive site for the lightwave d mail list and contains many pd and shareware graphics utilities for several computer platforms including amiga atari ibm and macintosh the server resides on a bbs called the graphics bbs the bbs is operational hours a day days a week at the phone number of it has upgraded its modem to a hayes ultra v bis v bis which has speeds from bps up to bps if you would like to submit objects scenes or images to the server please pack uuencode and then mail the files to the address server bobsbox rent com for information on obtaining files from the server send a mail message to the address file server graphics rent com with the following in the body of the message help dir and a help file describing how to use the server and a complete directory listing will be sent to you via mail now it includes the cyberware head and shouders in ttddd format check it out only if you can t use ftp nfotis inria graphlib pierre jancene and sabine coquillart launched the inria graphlib mail server a few months ago echo help mail inria graphlib inria fr will give you a quick summary of what inria graphlib contains and how to browse among its files echo send contents mail inria graphlib inria fr will return the extended summary as an other example echo send cgrl from misc mail inria graphlib inria fr will return the computer graphics resource listing mirrored from comp graphics bbses there are many bbses that store datafiles etc etc but a guide to these is beyond the scope of this listing and the resources of the author if you can point to me internet or mail accessible bbses that carry interesting stuff send me info studio amiga is a d modelling and ray tracing specific bbs hours meg online from jeff walkup pwappy well sf ca us the castle k v bis v v bis mnp in pacifica dang close to san francisco california usa the new user password is tao j oin base the castle g fx anim video d s i g of which i am the sig op lazerus bob lindabury operates a bbs see above the entry for the graphics bbs you can call me ray ray tracing related bbs in chicago suburbs or digital pixel sysop mark ng mcng descartes waterloo edu is based at toronto ontario canada phone storage space megs modem type k baud k zyxel v bis v mnp access fee none free system supported dos os amiga mac netmail currently no echo mail topics raytracing fractals graphics programming cad any comp graphics related from david tiberio dtiberio ic sunysb edu amiga graphics bbs in long island new york running hours at k v bis with megs on line we also subscribe to mailing lists of which originate from our bbs with more to be added soon these include lightwave imagine real d ray tracing database files include imagine d objects d renderings scalable fonts music modules sound samples demos animations utilities text databases and pending lightwave d objects the graphics alternative the graphics alternative is in el cerrito ca running hours a day at k hst v bis with mb online and a user base tga runs two nodes node is for public access and includes a free day trial subscription tga is the west coast host for pcgnet the profesional cad and graphics network supporting nodes across the continental u s alaska new zealand australia france and the uk tga s file database includes ms dos executables for pov vivid rtrace rayshade polyray and others tga also has numerous graphics utilities viewers and conversion utilities registered vivid users can also download the latest vivid aeta code from a special vivid conference from scott bethke sbathkey access digex com the intersection bbs this bbs is dedicated to supporting d animators the system is provided free of charge and is not commercialized in anyway users are given full access on the first call features usenet news internet mail fidonet echo s netmail megs online v bis v bis modem platforms of interest amiga the videotoaster macintosh ms dos unix workstations sun sgi etc atari st from alfonso hermida afanh robots gsfc nasa gov pi square bbs in maryland it supports raytracers such as pov and vivid the bbs runs off a mhz megs hard drive and cd rom now it runs on bps this will change soon topics graphics programming animation raytracing programming general from lynn falkow roxxie delphi com vertech design s graphic connection in portland oregon v v bis the bbs aside from carrying typical bbs services like message bases all topic specific and files cad and graphics related hundreds of megabytes also offers material texture files that are full color seamlessly tiling photo realistic images there are samples available to first time callers the bbs is a subscription system although callers have hours before they must subscribe and there are several subscription rates available people interested in materials can subscribe to the library in addition to a basic subscription rate and can use their purchased time to download whichever materials they wish ray tracing graphics related mailing lists imagine modeling and animation system for the amiga send subscription requests to imagine request email sp paramax com send material to imagine email sp paramax com dave wickard has substituted steve worley in the maintenance of the mailing list please note that the unisys com address is no longer valid lightwave for the amiga it s part of newtek s video toaster send subscription requests to lightwave request bobsbox rent com send material to lightwave bobsbox rent com bob lindabury toaster send subscription requests to listserv karazm math uh edu with a body of subscribe toaster list real d another modeling and animation system for the amiga to subscribe send a mail containing the body subscribe real d l your full name to listserv gu uwa edu au rayshade send subscription requests to rayshade request cs princeton edu send material to rayshade users cs princeton edu craig kolb alladin d for the amiga send subscription requests to subscribe xamiga linet org and in the body of the message write alladin d username domain radiance greg ward the author sends to registered via e mail users digests of his correspodence with them notes about fixes updates etc his address is gjward lbl gov rend send subscription requests to rend request sunee waterloo edu send material to rend sunee waterloo edu pov ray dkb raytracers to subscribe send a mail containing the body subscribe dkb l your full name to listserv trearn bitnet send material to dkb l trearn bitnet mailing list for massively parallel rendering send subscription requests to mp render request icase edu send material to mp render icase edu d graphics editors a public domain free and shareware systems vision d mac based program written by paul d bourke pdbourke ccu aukland ac nz the program can be used to generate models directly in the rayshade and radiance file formats polygons only it s shareware and listed on the ftp list brl a solid modeling system for most environments including sgi and x it has csg and nurbs plus support for non manifold geometry whatever it is you can get it free via ftp by signing and returning the relevant license found on ftp brl mil uses ray tracing for engineering analyses contact ms carla moyer tel fax cad dist brl mil e mail snail mail brl cad distribution surviac aberdeen satellite office old philadelphia road suite aberdeen md usa irit a constructive solid geometry csg modeling program for pc and x includes freeform surface support free see ftp list for where to find it surfmodel a solid modeling program for pc written in turbo pascal by ken van camp available from simtel pd msdos srfmodl directory noodles from cmu namely fritz printz and levent gursoz elg styx edrc cmu edu it s based on non manifold topology ask them for more info i don t know if they give it away xyz xyz is an interactive d editor builder written by dale p stocker to create objects for the surfacemodel automove and dkb raytracer packages xyz is free and can be found for example in simtel as msdos surfmodl xyz zip dos only dmod it s an msdos program check at barnacle erc clarkson edu pub msdos graphics dmod undocumented file format dmod is c by micah silverman pierrepoint ave postdam new york tel northcad shareware msdos cad ncad d zip in simtel undocumented file format vertex amiga shareware send us check or money order to the art machine nickolas sterling heights mi usa in addition to the now standard file formats including lightwave imagine sculpt turbo silver geo and wavefront this release offers d professional and rayshade support rayshade is supported only by the primitive triangle but you can easily include this output in your rayshade scripts the latest demo version is available on fred fish for more information contact the author alex deburie at ad s sycom mi org phone icoons amiga it s a spline based object modeller icoons interactive coons path editor in amiga physik unizh ch gfx d icoons lzh it s free under the gnu licence and requires fpu the program has a look feel which is a cross between journeyman and imagine and it generates objects in ttddd format it is possible to load journeyman objects into icoons so the program can be used to convert jman objects to imagine format author helge e rasmussen her compel dk phone fax it s also on fred fish disk series n nfotis protocad d ver from trius shareware it s at wsmr simtel army mil and oak oakland edu as pcad d zip for pcs it has this menu layout file file handling load save import xport draw draw d objects line circle box d draw d objects mesh sphere block edit editing features copy move surface modify objects revolve xtrude sweep image image zooming features update window half option global defaults grid toggles axis plot print drawing picture go image render shade objects frame lighting tune layer layer options select active layer set colors sculptura runs under windows and outputs pov files a demo can be found on wuarchive wustl edu in mirrors win demo demo d zip author michael gibson gibsonm stein u washington edu b commercial systems alpha a spline based modeling program written in university of utah features splines up to trimmed nurbs support for boolean operations sweeps bending warping flattening etc groups of objects and transformations extensible object types applications include nc machining animation utilities dimensioning fem analysis etc rendering subsystem with support for animations support the following platforms hp and s x r hp ux sgi d or pi machines x r and gl irix sun sparcstation x r sunos licensing and distribution is handled by egs glenn mcminn president engineering geometry systems east south temple suite salt lake city ut mcminn cs utah edu educational pricing the charge is per platform you may run the system on as many different workstations of that type as you wish for each platform there is also a licensing fee for portable standard lisp psl which is bundled with the system you need to obtain an additional license from the university of utah for psl from the following address professor robert kessler computer science department university of utah salt lake city utah egs can handle the licensing of psl for u s institutions for a usd nominal fee nfotis vertigo they have an educational institution program the package is used in the industrial design architectural scientific visualization educational broadcast imaging and post production fields they ll quoting from a letter sent to me nfotis donate fully configured vertigo d graphics software worth over usd per package to qualified educational institutions for licencing on any number of silicon graphics personal iris or power series workstations if you use an iris indigo station we will also licence our vertigo revolution software worth usd if you are interested in participating in this program please send a letter by mail or fax on your institution s letterhead briefly outlining your potential uses for vertigo together with the following information unix version model and number of sgi systems peripheral devices third party software participants will be asked to contribute usd per institution to cover costs of the manual administration and shipping we recommend that vertigo users subscribe to our technical support services for an annual fee you will receive technical assistance on our support hotline bug fixes software upgrades and manual updates for educational institution we will waive the administration fee if support is purchased the annual support fee is plus the following cost for additional machines number of machines additional cost per machine there s also a day training program nfotis contact vertigo technology inc suite west georgia st vancouver bc canada v e y phone fax does anyone know of such offers from tdi alias softimage wavefront etc this would be a very interesting part nfotis padl basically it s a solid modeling kernel in top of which you build your application s available by license from cornell programmable automation cornell university engineering and theory center ithaca ny license fees are very low for educational institutions and gov t agencies internal commercial licenses and re dissemination licenses are available for an information packet write to the above address or send your address to marisa cpa tn cornell edu richard marisa acis from spatial technology it s a solid modelling kernel callable from c heard that many universities got free copies from the company the person to contact regarding acis in academic institutions is scott owens e mail sdo spatial com and their address is spatial technology inc th st bldg a boulder co phone fax movie byu cquel byu basically in my understanding this is a fem pre and post proccessor system it s fairly old today but it still serves some people in mech eng depts now it s superseded from cquel byu pronounced sequel that s a complete modelling animation and visualization package runs in the usual workstation environments sun dec hp sgi ibm rs and others you can get a demo version days trial period either by sending usd in their address or a blank tape it costs for a full run time licence contact engineering computer graphics lab clyde building brigham young univ provo ut phone e mail cquel byu edu twixt soon to add stuff about it if i get a reply to my fax voxblast it s a volume renderer marketed by vaytek inc fairfield iowa phone running on pcs with fpu at least call vaytek for more info voxelbox a d volume renderer for windows features include direct ray traced volume rendering color and alpha mapping gradient lighting animation reflections and shadows runs on a pc or higher with at least an bit video card svga is fine under windows x it costs contact jaguar software inc main st suite b winchester ma jwp world std com john w poduska scene description languages nff neutral file format by eric haines very simple there are some procedural database generators in the spd package and many objects floating in various ftp sites there s also a previewer written in hp starbase from e haines also there s one written in vogle so you can use any of the devices vogle can output on check in sites carrying vogle like gondwana ecr mu oz au off object file format from dec s randy rost rost kpc com the object archive server seems to be mothballed in a future version i ll remove the ref to it nfotis available also through their mail server to obtain help about using this service send a message with a subject line containing only the word help and a null message body to object archive server decwrl dec com for ftp places to get it see in the relevant place there s an off previewer for sgi d machines called off preview in godzilla cgl rmit oz au there are previewers for xview and sunview also on gondwana tddd it s a library of d objects with translators to from off nff rayshade imagine or vort objects edited copy of the announcement follows from raytracing news v new library of d objects available via ftp by steve worley worley cup portal com i have assembled a set of over d objects in a binary format called tddd these objects range from human figures to airplanes from semi trucks to lampposts these objects are all freely distributable and most have readmes that describe them in order to convert these objects to a human readable format a file with the specification of tddd is included in the directory with the objects there is also a shareware system called ttdddlib officially on hubcap clemson edu that will convert ala pbm to from various object formats imagine ttddd extension of tddd off nff rayshade or vort source included for amiga unix as executables for the amiga also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views in postscript p d from pittsburgh supercomputing center the p d uses lisp with slight extensions to store three dimensional models a simple lisp interpreter is included with the p d release so there is no need to have access to any vendor s lisp to run this software the mouse driven user interfaces for motif open look and silicon graphics gl and the drawp d subroutine library for generating p d without ever looking at the underlying lisp the p d software currently supports nine renderers they are painter painter s algorithm dore silicon graphics inc gl language generic phigs sun phigs dec phigs rayshade art ray tracer from vort package and pixar renderman the code is available via anonymous ftp from the machines ftp psc edu directory pub p d and nic funet fi directory pub graphics programs p d renderman pixar s renderman is not free call pixar for details solids description formats a eec s esprit project cad i cad interfaces has developed a neutral file format for transfer of cad data curves surfaces and solid models between cad systems and from cad to caa computer aided analysis an cam computer aided manufacturing b iges v now tries to define a standard to tranfer solid models brep and csg the current standard number is ansi y m for documentation you might want to contact nancy flower at ncga technical services and standards ext and the cost is this standard is not available in electronic format c pdes step this slowly emerging standard tries to encompass not only the geometrical information but also for things like fem etc the main bodies besides this standard are nist and darpa you can get more information about pdes by sending mail to nptserver cme nist gov and putting the line send index in the body not the subject area of the message the people at rutherford appleton lab are also working on step tools they have an express compiler and an exchange file parser both available in source form and for free for research purposes soon they will also have an express based database system for the tools contact mike mead phone fax x e mail mm inf rl ac uk or mcsun uknet rlinf mm or mm inf rl ac uk nsfnet relay ac uk end of part of the resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	ellipse from its offset hi everyone since some people quickly solved the problem of determining a sphere from points i suddenly recalled a problem which is how to find the ellipse from its offset for example given points on the offset can you find the original ellipse analytically i spent two months solving this problem by using analytical method last year but i failed under the pressure i had to use other method nonlinear programming technique to deal with this problem approximately any ideas will be greatly appreciated please post here let the others share our interests yeh usc
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac in z b w w cellar org tsa cellar org the silent assassin writes i m building a cad package and need a d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such as hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations i think apda has something called macwireframe which is a full wire frame and supposedly hidden line removal library i think it weighs in at but i ve been wrong on an order of magnitude before libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat i can relate to that h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe on a clear disc you can seek forever
comp.graphics	to yhe one who wants fonts in pov polyray vivid to everyone who wants fonts in vivid pov polyray the borland bgi font converter is vvfont zip this program can be found on ftp informatik uni oldenburg de directory pub dkbtrace utils also wuarchive has mirrored this site directory graphics graphics mirrors ftp informatik uni oldenburg de pub dkbtrace utils there are more nice utilities present in this directory a new version of polyray for those asked for it can be found on the same sites but in the directory incoming instead of utils ply also in this directory povshell and pv dv could be found have a nive raytrace time peter peter vanderveen visser el wau nl o o department of genetics agricultural university u wageningen the netherlands
comp.graphics	newss i am working on a project where we are going to be including both still and moving grapics within a database of course jpeg and mpeg come to mind as the formats of choice for the various files however from what i read on the net it seems as if there are several different forms of each of these what i want to do is settle on a file format which i can count on as being a standard format years from now i know apple is going to support quicktime on the new power pc s and so this may be the format of choice what format does apple s quicktime use for their products i guess it is some kind of mpeg for their motion picture is it any different than standard mpeg files thanx for any info art pollarda xray byu edu
comp.graphics	pd d viewer wanted i am looking for a public domain d viewer it does not have to be very fancy the features i want is simple wireframe display flat shading simple transformation it would be nice to have hidden line any information is appreciated
comp.graphics	re cview answers in apr imag fr schaefer imag imag fr arno schaefer writes sorry bryan this is not quite correct remember the vgalib package that comes with linux sls it will switch to vga x x mode without xwindows so at least it is possible to write a gif viewer under linux however i don t think that there exists a similar svga package and viewing gifs in x is not very nice no vgalib amazing i guess it was lost in all those subdirs thanks for correcting me it doesn t sound very appealing though only x i m glad it wasn t something major i missed thanks
comp.graphics	re cview answers in article c lerr j rahul net bryanw rahul net bryan woodworth writes in apr whiting mcs com sean whiting mcs com sean gum writes a stupid question but what will cview run on and where can i get it i am still in need of a gif viewer for linux without x windows thanks ho boy there is no way in hell you are going to be able to view gifs or do any other graphics in linux without x windows i love linux because it is so easy to learn you want text okay use linux you want text and graphics use linux with x windows simple painless required to have x windows if you want graphics this includes fancy word processors like doc image viewers like xv etc sorry bryan this is not quite correct remember the vgalib package that comes with linux sls it will switch to vga x x mode without xwindows so at least it is possible to write a gif viewer under linux however i don t think that there exists a similar svga package and viewing gifs in x is not very nice best regards arno arno schaefer ensimag e annee email schaefer silene imag fr tel
comp.graphics	need specs info on apple quicktime i need to get the specs or at least a very verbose interpretation of the specs for quicktime technical articles from magazines and references to books would be nice too i also need the specs in a format usable on a unix or ms dos system i can t do much with the quicktime stuff they have on ftp apple com in its present format thanks in advance james d murray add sciences sdsu edu
comp.graphics	genoa graphics board drivers ftp site hi well i have opened up a ftp site for getting the latest software drivers for genoa graphics cards here is how to access it ftp login ftp password ftp cd pub genoa ls l binary prompt hash now if you wanna have the latest drivers for the board cd series mget quit this is the sequence to get the drivers if you have any further question please email me best regards stefan hartmann email to harti mikro ee tu berlin de
comp.graphics	re cview answers in c levt nj rahul net bryanw rahul net bryan woodworth writes in qlobb p a tuegate tue nl renew blade stack urc tue nl rene walter writes most info regarding dangers of reading from floppy disks omitted unrevcoverable way so be careful it is incredibly poor programming for a program to do this nevertheless it is an important bug that needs to be squashed i am merely pointing out that it was probably overlooked while it is serious one must keep in mind that it will probably affect at most of the targeted users of cview ok i don t use cview anymore but i saw that no one had explaind this bug in the thread so here goes it is not the fault of cview it is dos if you leave a file open on a floppy drive then change the disk and do something which updates or closes that file you have a good chance of getting part of the directory and fat from the other disk written to the new disk this has always been true and has destroyed data under other programs not just cview the only thing cview can do to improve the situation is to try not to leave files open unless it s actively using them ie reading and decoding kevin martin sigma rahul net i gotta get me another hat
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed this may be a fairly routine request on here but i m looking for a fast polygon routine to be used in a d game i have one that works right now but its very slow could anyone point me to one pref in asm that is fairly well documented and flexible thanx lucas
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed in article c n x b l news cso uiuc edu osprey ux cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes this may be a fairly routine request on here but i m looking for a fast polygon routine to be used in a d game a fast polygon routine to do what
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr mercury unt edu mcmains unt edu sean mcmains writes wow a i d be very interested to get my hands on one of these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which is supposedly the next in the x lineup d a is just a with a built in mmu i don t even think that moto manufactures them ian romanick dancing fool of epsilon were the contained thoughts opinions epn ntsc quality best psu would probably not agree with them look i don t know anything about douche but i do know anti freeze when i see it the dead milkmen
comp.graphics	ms windows graphics viewer howdy all i was wondering if people could e mail me their opinions on the various graphics viewers available for ms windows x i m working on a project to set up our scanner and write documentation on how to use it and it would be nice to have a snazzy image viewer to look at and maybe even edit the image you just scanned the file formats i m looking for gif jpeg tiff pcx whatever other major file formats there are thanks a lot for your help grant grant totten programmer analyst trent university peterborough ontario gtotten trentu ca phone fax in the days of old when knights were bold and women were too cautious oh those gallant days when women were women and men were really obnoxious
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo rchland vnet ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado writes in article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cd i s cpu doesn t help much either i understand it is a supposedly a variation of a running at something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites snip the do is not a ricardo the animation playback to which lawrence was referring in an earlier post is plain old quicktime with the compact video codec i ve seen digitized video some of apple s early commercials to be precise running on a centris at about fps very nicely bit color depth i would expect that using the same algorithm a risc processor should be able to approach full screen full motion animation though as you ve implied the processor will be taxed more with highly dynamic material snip booth there i walked by and they were showing real time video capture using a radious or supermac card to digitize and make right on the spot quicktime movies i think the quicktime they were using was the old one they digitized a guy talking there in x xx something it played back quite nicely and in real time the guy then expanded the window resized to x by xx in y i think and the frame rate decreased enough to notice that it wasn t fps or about fps anymore it dropped to like fps then he increased it just a bit more and it dropped to fps then i asked him what mac he was using he was using a quadra don t know what model to do it and he was telling the guys there that the quicktime could play back at the same speed even on an lcii well i spoiled his claim so to say since a quadra mac was having a little bit of trouble and this wasn t even from the hardisk this was from memory could it be that you saw either a newer version of quicktime or some hardware assisted centris or another software product running the animation like supposedly macromind s accelerator don t misunderstand me i just want to clarify this the do box is based on an arm risc processor one or two custom graphics chips a dsp a double speed cdrom and mb of ram vram i m a little fuzzy on the breakdown of the graphics chips and ram vram capacity it was demonstrated at a recent gathering at the electronic cafe in santa monica ca from do rj mical of amiga lynx fame and hal josephson sp were there to talk about the machine and their plan we got to see the unit displaying full screen movies using the compactvideo codec which was nice very little blockiness showing clips from jaws and backdraft and a very high frame rate to boot like fps note however that the do s screen resolution is x compactvideo is pretty amazing i also wanted to point out that quicktime does indeed slow down when one dynamically resizes material as was stated above i m sure if the material had been compressed at the large size then it would play back fine i have a q and do this quite a bit the price of generality personally i don t use the dynamic sizing of movies often if ever but playing back stuff at its original size is plenty quick on the latest machines i m not sure how a centris mhz stacks up against the mhz arm in the do box obviously the arm is faster but how much rob barris quicksilver software inc rbarris orion oac uci edu
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed in article apr sophia smith edu orourke sophia smith edu joseph o rourke writes in article c n x b l news cso uiuc edu osprey ux cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes this may be a fairly routine request on here but i m looking for a fast polygon routine to be used in a d game a fast polygon routine to do what to draw polygons of course its a vga mode h x game done in c and asm i need a faster way to draw concave polygons that the method i have right now which is very slow lucas
comp.graphics	re cview answers in article c mv n t rahul net bryanw rahul net bryan woodworth writes in apr imag fr schaefer imag imag fr arno schaefer writes sorry bryan this is not quite correct remember the vgalib package that comes with linux sls it will switch to vga x x mode without xwindows so at least it is possible to write a gif viewer under linux however i don t think that there exists a similar svga package and viewing gifs in x is not very nice no vgalib amazing i guess it was lost in all those subdirs thanks for correcting me it doesn t sound very appealing though only x i m glad it wasn t something major i missed tommy frandsen s vgalib which is probably what you re talking about will do the standard vga modes some tweaked modes and then the tseng et super vga modes i have an et and i m viewing gif s at x i have a lousy small monitor with dpg view on linux i think i had to change some constants in the dpg view sources to make it use the et k modes vgalib s sources seem to be designed for easy addition of new super vga support each mode is an array of register values and there s a program that dumps an array declaration of this kind describing the current mode haven t tried it though btw my version of vgalib is kennu mits mdata fi try linux a free unix by linus torvalds for s read comp os linux or ask me by email if you like for more information you can run x tex gnu emacs and much more on top of a nice posix environment
comp.graphics	anyone know use rayshade out there i m using rayshade on the u w computers here and i d like input from other users and perhaps swap some ideas i could post uuencoded gifs here or ray code if anyone s interested i m having trouble coming up with colors that are metallic i e brass steel from the rgb values if you re on the u w machines check out fineman rle files rle on stein u washington edu for some of what i ve got dan
comp.graphics	re fake virtual reality the most ridiculous example of vr exploitation i ve seen so far is the virtual reality clothing company which recently opened up in vancouver as far as i can tell it s just another chic clothes spot although it would be interesting if they were selling virtual clothing e mail me if you want me to dig up their phone and you can probably get some promotional lit mp
comp.graphics	video in out i m getting ready to buy a multimedia workstation and would like a little advice i need a graphics card that will do video in and out under windows i was originally thinking of a targa but that doesn t work under windows what cards should i be looking into thanks craig to forgive is divine to be craig williamson an airhead is human craig williamson columbiasc ncr com balki bartokomas craig toontown columbiasc ncr com home perfect strangers
comp.graphics	ms windows screen grabber howdy all where could i find a screen grabber program for ms windows i m writing up some documentation and it would be very helpful to include sample screens into the document please e mail as i don t usualy follow this group thanks a lot grant grant totten programmer analyst trent university peterborough ontario gtotten trentu ca phone fax the human brain is like an enormous fish it is flat and slimy and has gills through which it can see monty python
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article bd news service uci edu rbarris orion oac uci edu robert c barris writes we got to see the unit displaying full screen movies using the compactvideo codec which was nice very little blockiness showing clips from jaws and backdraft and a very high frame rate to boot like fps acorn replay running on a mhz arm processor the arm is about slower than the arm does this in software off a standard cd rom bit colour at about the same resolution so what if the computer only has bit colour support real time dithering too the d o is supposed to have a couple of dsps the arm being used for housekeeping i m not sure how a centris mhz stacks up against the mhz arm in the do box obviously the arm is faster but how much a mhz arm xx should clock around arm mips say flat out depends really on the surrounding system and whether you are talking arm x or arm xx the latter has a cache and so is essential to run at this kind of speed with slower memory i ll stop saying things there cos i ll hopefully be working for arm after graduation mike ps don t pay heed to what reps from philips say if the d o doesn t beat the pants off di then i ll eat this postscript michael williams part ii computer science tripos mjw phx cam ac uk university of cambridge cymdeithas genedlaethol traddodiad troi teigrod mwythus ben i waered
comp.graphics	dicta australian pattern recognition society nd call for papers dicta nd conference on digital imaging computing techniques and applications location macquarie theatre macquarie university sydney date december dicta is the second biennial national conference of the australian pattern recognition society this event will provide an opportunity for any persons with an interest in computer vision digital image processing analysis and other aspects of pattern recognition to become informed about contemporary developments in the area to exchange ideas to establish contacts and to share details of their own work with others the following invited speakers will provide specialised presentations prof gabor t herman university of pennsylvania on medical imaging prof r m hodgson massey university new zealand on computer vision prof dominique juelin centre de morphologie mathematique paris on mathematical morphology prof john richards aust defence force academy canberra on remote sensing dr phillip k robertson csiro division of information technology canberra on interactive visualisation the conference will concentrate on but is not limited to the following areas of image processing computer vision and object recognition motion analysis morphology medical imaging fuzzy logic and neural networks image coding machine vision and robotics enhancement and restoration enhancement and restoration visualisation industrial applications software and hardware tools papers are sought for presentation at the conference and publication in the conference proceedings submission for peer review should consist of an extended abstract of words of doubled spaced text summarizing the technical aspects of the paper and any results that will be quoted final papers should be limited to no more than pages of text and illustrations in camera ready form four copies of the abstract should be sent to dicta c tony adriaansen csiro division of wool technology po box ryde nsw australia important dates abstract due th june acceptance notified th august final paper due th october social program the conference dinner will be held on the thursday th of december other social activities are being arranged situated on a beautiful harbour sydney has many and varied places of interest the opera house and harbour bridge are just two of the well known landmarks harbour cruises city tours to the blue mountains run daily we can provide further information on request accommodation accommodation within min walking distance is available ranging from college style to star hotel facilities information will be supplied upon request conference fees before th sep after th sep aprs members a a aprs student members a a others a a conference dinner a on dec th advanced registration name organisation address phone fax email i am a current member of aprs i am not a current member of aprs please send me information on accommodation i enclose a cheque for please send the above form to dicta c tony adriaansen csiro division of wool technology po box ryde nsw australia the cheques should be made payable to dicta for further information contact tony adriaansen athula ginigie email dicta ee uts edu au aprs is a member of iapp the international association for pattern recognition inc an affiliated member of the international federation for information processing
comp.graphics	re so what is the fastest windows video c in article apr trentu ca ayounes trentu ca amro younes trent university c c peterborough on canada k j b writes i have the ati graphics ultra pro eisa version i must admit it has received bad press but that was due to the faulty drivers it had pc magazine seems to be impressed with the ati card in their most recent reviews in the april th issue they rate the ati graphics ultra pro eisa version as their editor s choice they noted that the drivers had improved since they tested the isa version in january cuyler
comp.graphics	re weitek p jgreen amber joe green writes anyone know about the weitek p graphics chip do you have weitek s address phone number i d like to get some information about this chip yes i am very interested in this chip please follow up or email bill egan cavalier graphics houston texas email cavalier blkbox com
comp.graphics	jpeg image compression frequently asked questions archive name jpeg faq last modified april this faq article discusses jpeg image compression suggestions for additions and clarifications are welcome new since version of april new versions of image archiver and pmjpeg for os this article includes the following sections what is jpeg why use jpeg when should i use jpeg and when should i stick with gif how well does jpeg compress images what are good quality settings for jpeg where can i get jpeg software a canned software viewers etc b source code what s all this hoopla about color quantization how does jpeg work what about lossless jpeg why all the argument about file formats how do i recognize which file format i have and what do i do about it what about arithmetic coding does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg sections are basic info that every jpeg user needs to know sections are advanced info for the curious this article is posted every weeks you can always find the latest version in the news answers archive at rtfm mit edu by ftp fetch pub usenet news answers jpeg faq or if you don t have ftp send e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with body send usenet news answers jpeg faq many other faq articles are also stored in this archive for more instructions on use of the archive send e mail to the same address with the words help and index no quotes on separate lines if you don t get a reply the server may be misreading your return address add a line such as path myname mysite to specify your correct e mail address to reply to what is jpeg jpeg pronounced jay peg is a standardized image compression mechanism jpeg stands for joint photographic experts group the original name of the committee that wrote the standard jpeg is designed for compressing either full color or gray scale digital images of natural real world scenes it does not work so well on non realistic images such as cartoons or line drawings jpeg does not handle black and white bit per pixel images nor does it handle motion picture compression standards for compressing those types of images are being worked on by other committees named jbig and mpeg respectively jpeg is lossy meaning that the image you get out of decompression isn t quite identical to what you originally put in the algorithm achieves much of its compression by exploiting known limitations of the human eye notably the fact that small color details aren t perceived as well as small details of light and dark thus jpeg is intended for compressing images that will be looked at by humans if you plan to machine analyze your images the small errors introduced by jpeg may be a problem for you even if they are invisible to the eye a useful property of jpeg is that the degree of lossiness can be varied by adjusting compression parameters this means that the image maker can trade off file size against output image quality you can make extremely small files if you don t mind poor quality this is useful for indexing image archives making thumbnail views or icons etc etc conversely if you aren t happy with the output quality at the default compression setting you can jack up the quality until you are satisfied and accept lesser compression why use jpeg there are two good reasons to make your image files smaller and to store bit per pixel color data instead of bit per pixel data making image files smaller is a big win for transmitting files across networks and for archiving libraries of images being able to compress a mbyte full color file down to kbytes or so makes a big difference in disk space and transmission time if you are comparing gif and jpeg the size ratio is more like four to one more details below if your viewing software doesn t support jpeg directly you ll have to convert jpeg to some other format for viewing or manipulating images even with a jpeg capable viewer it takes longer to decode and view a jpeg image than to view an image of a simpler format gif for instance thus using jpeg is essentially a time space tradeoff you give up some time in order to store or transmit an image more cheaply it s worth noting that when network or phone transmission is involved the time savings from transferring a shorter file can be much greater than the extra time to decompress the file i ll let you do the arithmetic yourself the other reason why jpeg will gradually replace gif as a standard usenet posting format is that jpeg can store full color information bits pixel million colors instead of or less or fewer colors if you have only bit display hardware then this may not seem like much of an advantage to you within a couple of years though bit gif will look as obsolete as black and white macpaint format does today furthermore for reasons detailed in section jpeg is far more useful than gif for exchanging images among people with widely varying color display hardware hence jpeg is considerably more appropriate than gif for use as a usenet posting standard when should i use jpeg and when should i stick with gif jpeg is not going to displace gif entirely for some types of images gif is superior in image quality file size or both one of the first things to learn about jpeg is which kinds of images to apply it to as a rule of thumb jpeg is superior to gif for storing full color or gray scale images of realistic scenes that means scanned photographs and similar material jpeg is superior even if you don t have bit display hardware and it is a lot superior if you do see section for details gif does significantly better on images with only a few distinct colors such as cartoons and line drawings in particular large areas of pixels that are all exactly the same color are compressed very efficiently indeed by gif jpeg can t squeeze these files as much as gif does without introducing visible defects this sort of image is best kept in gif form in particular single color borders are quite cheap in gif files but they should be avoided in jpeg files jpeg also has a hard time with very sharp edges a row of pure black pixels adjacent to a row of pure white pixels for example sharp edges tend to come out blurred unless you use a very high quality setting again this sort of thing is not found in scanned photographs but it shows up fairly often in gif files borders overlaid text etc the blurriness is particularly objectionable with text that s only a few pixels high if you have a gif with a lot of small size overlaid text don t jpeg it computer drawn images ray traced scenes for instance usually fall between scanned images and cartoons in terms of complexity the more complex and subtly rendered the image the more likely that jpeg will do well on it the same goes for semi realistic artwork fantasy drawings and such plain black and white two level images should never be converted to jpeg you need at least about gray levels before jpeg is useful for gray scale images it should also be noted that gif is lossless for gray scale images of up to levels while jpeg is not if you have an existing library of gif images you may wonder whether you should convert them to jpeg you will lose a little image quality if you do section which argues that jpeg image quality is superior to gif only applies if both formats start from a full color original if you start from a gif you ve already irretrievably lost a great deal of information jpeg can only make things worse however the disk space savings may justify converting anyway this is a decision you ll have to make for yourself if you do convert a gif library to jpeg see section for hints be prepared to leave some images in gif format since some gifs will not convert well how well does jpeg compress images pretty darn well here are some sample file sizes for an image i have handy a x full color image of a ship in a harbor the first three files are for comparison purposes the rest were created with the free jpeg software described in section b file size in bytes comments ship ppm original file in ppm format no compression bits or bytes per pixel plus a few bytes overhead ship ppm z ppm file passed through unix compress compress doesn t accomplish a lot you ll note other text oriented compressors give similar results ship gif converted to gif with ppmquant fs ppmtogif most of the savings is the result of losing color info gif saves bits pixel not see sec ship jpg cjpeg q highest useful quality setting this is indistinguishable from the bit original at least to my nonprofessional eyeballs ship jpg cjpeg q default setting you have to look mighty darn close to distinguish this from the original even with both on screen at once ship jpg cjpeg q this has slight defects if you know what to look for you could tell it s been jpeged without seeing the original still as good image quality as many recent postings in usenet pictures groups ship jpg cjpeg q jpeg s characteristic blockiness becomes apparent at this setting djpeg blocksmooth helps some still i ve seen plenty of usenet postings that were of poorer image quality than this ship jpg o cjpeg q optimize optimize cuts table overhead blocky but perfectly satisfactory for preview or indexing purposes note that this file is tiny the compression ratio from the original is in this case jpeg can make a file that s a factor of four or five smaller than a gif of comparable quality the q file is every bit as good as the gif better if you have a full color display this seems to be a typical ratio for real world scenes what are good quality settings for jpeg most jpeg compressors let you pick a file size vs image quality tradeoff by selecting a quality setting there seems to be widespread confusion about the meaning of these settings quality does not mean keep of the information as some have claimed the quality scale is purely arbitrary it s not a percentage of anything the name of the game in using jpeg is to pick the lowest quality setting smallest file size that decompresses into an image indistinguishable from the original this setting will vary from one image to another and from one observer to another but here are some rules of thumb the default quality setting q is very often the best choice this setting is about the lowest you can go without expecting to see defects in a typical image try q first if you see defects then go up except for experimental purposes never go above q saying q will produce a file two or three times as large as q but of hardly any better quality if the image was less than perfect quality to begin with you might be able to go down to q without objectionable degradation on the other hand you might need to go to a higher quality setting to avoid further degradation the second case seems to apply much of the time when converting gifs to jpeg the default q is about right for compressing bit images but q to is usually better for converting gifs see section for more info if you want a very small file say for preview or indexing purposes and are prepared to tolerate large defects a q setting in the range of to is about right q or so may be amusing as op art note the quality settings discussed in this article apply to the free jpeg software described in section b and to many programs based on it other jpeg implementations such as image alchemy may use a completely different quality scale some programs don t even provide a numeric scale just high medium low style choices where can i get jpeg software most of the programs described in this section are available by ftp if you don t know how to use ftp see the faq article how to find sources if you don t have direct access to ftp read about ftpmail servers in the same article that article appears regularly in news answers or you can get it by sending e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers finding sources in the body the anonymous ftp list faq may also be helpful it s usenet news answers ftp list faq in the news answers archive note this list changes constantly if you have a copy more than a couple months old get the latest jpeg faq from the news answers archive a if you are looking for canned software viewers etc the first part of this list is system specific programs that only run on one kind of system if you don t see what you want for your machine check out the portable jpeg software described at the end of the list note that this list concentrates on free and shareware programs that you can obtain over internet but some commercial programs are listed too x windows john bradley s free xv version and up is an excellent viewer for jpeg gif and other image formats it s available for ftp from export lcs mit edu or ftp cis upenn edu the file is called xv tar z where is the version number currently it is located in the contrib directory on export or the pub xv directory at upenn xv reduces all images to bits internally which means it s not a real good choice if you have a bit display you ll still get only bit color also you shouldn t use xv to convert full color images to jpeg because they ll get color quantized first but xv is a fine tool for converting gif and other bit images to jpeg caution there is a glitch in versions and earlier be sure to check the save at normal size checkbox when saving a jpeg file or the file will be blurry another good choice for x windows is john cristy s free imagemagick package also available from export lcs mit edu file contrib imagemagick tar z this package handles many image processing and conversion tasks the imagemagick viewer handles bit displays correctly for colormapped displays it does better though slower color quantization than xv or the basic free jpeg software both of the above are large complex packages if you just want a simple image viewer try xloadimage or xli xloadimage supports jpeg in its latest release xloadimage is free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xloadimage tar z xli is a variant version of xloadimage said by its fans to be somewhat faster and more robust than the original the current xli is indeed faster and more robust than the current xloadimage at least with respect to jpeg files because it has the ijg v decoder while xloadimage is using a hacked over v the next xloadimage release will fix this xli is also free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xli tar z both programs are said to do the right thing with bit displays ms dos this covers plain dos for windows or os programs see the next headings one good choice is eric praetzel s free dvpeg which views jpeg and gif files the current version a is available by ftp from sunee uwaterloo ca file pub jpeg viewers dvpeg a zip this is a good basic viewer that works on either or machines the user interface is not flashy but it s functional another freeware jpeg gif tga viewer is mohammad rezaei s hiview the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics hv zip hiview requires a or better cpu and a vcpi compatible memory manager qemm and max work windows and os do not hiview is currently the fastest viewer for images that are no bigger than your screen for larger images it scales the image down to fit on the screen rather than using panning scrolling as most viewers do you may or may not prefer this approach but there s no denying that it slows down loading of large images considerably note installation is a bit tricky read the directions carefully a shareware alternative is colorview for dos this is easier to install than either of the two freeware alternatives its user interface is also much spiffier looking although personally i find it harder to use more keystrokes inconsistent behavior it is faster than dvpeg but a little slower than hiview at least on my hardware for images larger than screen size dvpeg and colorview seem to be about the same speed and both are faster than hiview the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics dcview zip requires a vesa graphics driver if you don t have one look in vesadrv zip or vesa tsr zip from the same directory many recent pcs have a built in vesa driver so don t try to load a vesa driver unless colorview complains that the driver is missing a second shareware alternative is fullview which has been kicking around the net for a while but i don t know any stable archive location for it the current rather old version is inferior to the above viewers anyway the author tells me that a new version of fullview will be out shortly and it will be submitted to the simtel archives at that time the well known gif viewer compushow cshow supports jpeg in its latest revision a however cshow s jpeg implementation isn t very good it s slow about half the speed of the above viewers and image quality is poor except on hi color displays too bad it d have been nice to see a good jpeg capability in cshow shareware available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos gif cshw a zip due to the remarkable variety of pc graphics hardware any one of these viewers might not work on your particular machine if you can t get any of them to work you ll need to use one of the following conversion programs to convert jpeg to gif then view with your favorite gif viewer if you have hi color hardware don t use gif as the intermediate format try to find a targa capable viewer instead vpic is reputed to do the right thing with hi color displays the independent jpeg group s free jpeg converters are ftpable from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics jpeg zip or jpeg zip if you have a and extended memory these files are dos compilations of the free source code described in section b they will convert jpeg to and from gif targa and ppm formats handmade software offers free jpeg gif conversion tools gif jpg jpg gif these are slow and are limited to conversion to and from gif format in particular you can t get bit color output from a jpeg the major advantage of these tools is that they will read and write hsi s proprietary jpeg format as well as the usenet standard jfif format since hsi format files are rather widespread on bbses this is a useful capability version of these tools is free prior versions were shareware get it from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics gif jpg zip note do not use hsi format for files to be posted on internet since it is not readable on non pc platforms handmade software also has a shareware image conversion and manipulation package image alchemy this will translate jpeg files both jfif and hsi formats to and from many other image formats it can also display images a demo version of image alchemy version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics alch zip note about simtel the internet s key archive site for pc related programs is simtel full name wsmr simtel army mil simtel runs a non unix system with weird directory names where this document refers to directory eg msdos graphics at simtel that really means pd msdos graphics if you are not physically on milnet you should expect rather slow ftp transfer rates from simtel there are several internet sites that maintain copies mirrors of the simtel archives most ftp users should go to one of the mirror sites instead a popular usa mirror site is oak oakland edu which keeps simtel files in eg pub msdos graphics if you have no ftp capability you can retrieve files from simtel by e mail see informational postings in comp archives msdos announce to find out how if you are outside the usa consult the same newsgroup to learn where your nearest simtel mirror is microsoft windows there are several windows programs capable of displaying jpeg images windows viewers are generally slower than dos viewers on the same hardware due to windows system overhead note that you can run the dos conversion programs described above inside a windows dos window the newest entry is winecj which is free and extremely fast version is available from ftp rahul net file pub bryanw pc jpeg wecj zip requires windows and or more colors mode this is a no frills viewer with the bad habit of hogging the machine completely while it decodes and the image quality is noticeably worse than other viewers but it s so fast you ll use it anyway at least for previewing jview is freeware fairly fast has good on line help and can write out the decompressed image in windows bmp format but it can t create new jpeg files and it doesn t view gifs jview also lacks some other useful features of the shareware viewers such as brightness adjustment but it s an excellent basic viewer the current version is available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub pc win desktop jview zip mirrors of this archive can be found at some other internet sites including wuarchive wustl edu winjpeg shareware displays jpeg gif targa tiff and bmp image files it can write all of these formats too so it can be used as a converter it has some other nifty features including color balance adjustment and slideshow the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos windows winjp zip this is a slow compatible version if you register you ll get the only version which is roughly faster colorview is another shareware entry this was an early and promising contender but it has not been updated in some time and at this point it has no real advantages over winjpeg if you want to try it anyway the current version is available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub pc win desktop cview zip i understand that a new version will be appearing once the authors are finished with colorview for dos dvpeg see dos heading also works under windows but only in full screen mode not in a window os the following files are available from hobbes nmsu edu note check pub uploads for more recent versions the hobbes moderator is not very fast about moving uploads into their permanent directories pub os x graphics jpegv zip bit version of free ijg conversion programs version pub os all graphics jpeg zip bit version of same for os x pub os x graphics imgarc zip image archiver image conversion viewing with pm graphical interface strong on conversion functions viewing is a bit weaker shareware pub os x graphics pmjpeg zip pmjpeg os x port of winjpeg a popular viewer for windows see description in windows section shareware pub os x graphics pmview zip pmview jpeg gif bmp viewer gif viewing very fast jpeg viewing fast if you have huge amounts of ram otherwise about the same speed as the above programs strong bit display support shareware macintosh most mac jpeg programs rely on apple s jpeg implementation which is part of the quicktime system extension so you need to have quicktime installed to use quicktime you need a or better cpu and you need to be running system or later if you re running system you must also install the bit quickdraw extension this is built in on system you can get quicktime by ftp from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime quicktime hqx as of this file contains quicktime which is better than qt in several ways with respect to jpeg it is marginally faster and considerably less prone to crash when fed a corrupt jpeg file however some applications seem to have compatibility problems with qt mac users should keep in mind that quicktime s jpeg format pict jpeg is not the same as the usenet standard jfif jpeg format see section for details if you post images on usenet make sure they are in jfif format most of the programs mentioned below can generate either format the first choice is probably jpegview a free program for viewing images that are in jfif format pict jpeg format or gif format it also can convert between the two jpeg formats the current version is a big improvement over prior versions get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg view hqx requires system and quicktime on bit displays jpegview usually produces the best color image quality of all the currently available mac jpeg viewers jpegview can view large images in much less memory than other mac viewers in fact it s the only one that can deal with jpeg images much over x pixels on a typical mb mac given a large image jpegview automatically scales it down to fit on the screen rather than presenting scroll bars like most other viewers you can zoom in on any desired portion though some people like this behavior some don t overall jpegview s user interface is very well thought out gifconverter a shareware image viewer converter supports jfif and pict jpeg as well as gif and several other image formats the latest version is get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac art gif gif converter hqx requires system or later gifconverter is not better than jpegview as a plain jpeg gif viewer but it has much more extensive image manipulation and format conversion capabilities so you may find it worth its shareware fee if you do a lot of playing around with images also the newest version of gifconverter can load and save jfif images without quicktime so it is your best bet if your machine is too old to run quicktime but it s faster with quicktime note if gifconverter runs out of memory trying to load a large jpeg try converting the file to gif with jpeg convert then viewing the gif version jpeg convert a mac version of the free ijg jpeg conversion utilities is available from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg convert hqx this will run on any mac but it only does file conversion not viewing you can use it in conjunction with any gif viewer previous versions of this faq recommended imagery jpeg v a jpeg gif converter based on an old version of the ijg code if you are using this program you definitely should replace it with jpeg convert apple s free program pictpixie can view images in jfif quicktime jpeg and gif format and can convert between these formats you can get pictpixie from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime qt stuff pictpixie hqx requires quicktime pictpixie was intended as a developer s tool and it s really not the best choice unless you like to fool around with quicktime some of its drawbacks are that it requires lots of memory it produces relatively poor color image quality on anything less than a bit display and it has a relatively unfriendly user interface worse pictpixie is an unsupported program meaning it has some minor bugs that apple does not intend to fix there is an old version of pictpixie called pictcompressor floating around the net if you have this you should trash it as it s even buggier also the quicktime starter kit includes a much cleaned up descendant of pictpixie called picture compressor note that picture compressor is not free and may not be distributed on the net storm technology s picture decompress is a free jpeg viewer converter this rather old program is inferior to the above programs in many ways but it will run without system or quicktime so you may be forced to use it on older systems it does need bit quickdraw so really old machines can t use it you can get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app picture decompress hqx you must set the file type of a downloaded image file to jpeg to allow picture decompress to open it if your machine is too old to run bit quickdraw a mac plus for instance gifconverter is your only choice for single program jpeg viewing if you don t want to pay for gifconverter use jpeg convert and a free gif viewer more and more commercial mac applications are supporting jpeg although not all can deal with the usenet standard jfif format adobe photoshop version or later can read and write jfif format jpeg files use the jpeg plug in from the acquire menu you must set the file type of a downloaded jpeg file to jpeg to allow photoshop to recognize it amiga most programs listed in this section are stored in the aminet archive at amiga physik unizh ch there are many mirror sites of this archive and you should try to use the closest one in the usa a good choice is wuarchive wustl edu look under mirrors amiga physik unizh ch hamlab plus is an excellent jpeg viewer converter as well as being a general image manipulation tool it s cheap shareware and can read several formats besides jpeg the current version is a demo version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga gfx edit hamlab d lha the demo version will crop images larger than x but it is otherwise fully functional rend shareware is an image renderer that can display jpeg ilbm and gif images the program can be used to create animations even capturing frames on the fly from rendering packages like lightwave the current version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga os gfx rend lha note although this directory is supposedly for amigados programs the program will also run under amigados or viewtek is a free jpeg ilbm gif anim viewer the current version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga gfx show viewtek lha if you re willing to spend real money there are several commercial packages that support jpeg two are written by thomas krehbiel the author of rend and viewtek these are cinemorph a standalone image morphing package and imagefx an impressive bit image capture conversion editing painting effects and prepress package that also includes cinemorph both are distributed by great valley products art department professional adpro from asdg inc is the most widely used commercial image manipulation software for amigas imagemaster from black belt systems is another well regarded commercial graphics package with jpeg support the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for amigas from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites in directory amiga gfx conv file amigajpegv lha these programs convert jpeg to from ppm gif targa formats the amiga world is heavily infested with quick and dirty jpeg programs many based on an ancient beta test version of the free ijg jpeg software thanks to a certain magazine that published same on its disk of the month without so much as notifying the authors among these are augjpeg newamyjpeg vjpeg and probably others i have not even heard of in my opinion anything older than ijg version march is not worth the disk space it s stored on if you have such a program trash it and get something newer atari st the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for atari st tt etc from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics jpeg bin zoo these programs convert jpeg to from ppm gif targa formats i have not heard of any free or shareware jpeg capable viewer for ataris but surely there must be one by now pointers appreciated acorn archimedes changefsi supplied with risc os version can convert from and view jpeg jfif format provision is also made to convert images to jpeg although this must be done from the cli rather than by double clicking recent versions since of the shareware program translator can handle jpeg along with about other image formats while older versions can be found on some archimedes bboards the current version is only available by registering with the author john kortink nutterbrink wj enschede the netherlands price dutch guilders about or pounds there s also a commercial product called jpeg which provides jpeg read write functionality and direct jpeg viewing as well as a host of other image format conversion and processing options this is more expensive but not necessarily better than the above programs contact dt software freepost cambridge uk tel portable software for almost any system if none of the above fits your situation you can obtain and compile the free jpeg conversion software described in b you ll also need a viewer program if your display is bits or less any gif viewer will do fine if you have a display with more color capability try to find a viewer that can read targa or ppm bit image files there are numerous commercial jpeg offerings with more popping up every day i recommend that you not spend money on one of these unless you find the available free or shareware software vastly too slow in that case purchase a hardware assisted product ask pointed questions about whether the product complies with the final jpeg standard and about whether it can handle the jfif file format many of the earliest commercial releases are not and never will be compatible with anyone else s files b if you are looking for source code to work with free portable c code for jpeg compression is available from the independent jpeg group which i lead a package containing our source code documentation and some small test files is available from several places the official archive site for this source code is ftp uu net or look under directory graphics jpeg the current release is jpegsrc v tar z this is a compressed tar file don t forget to retrieve in binary mode you can retrieve this file by ftp or uucp if you are on a pc and don t know how to cope with tar z format you may prefer zip format which you can find at simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos graphics jpegsrc zip this file will also be available on compuserve in the graphsupport forum go pics library as jpsrc zip if you have no ftp access you can retrieve the source from your nearest comp sources misc archive version appeared as issues of volume if you don t know how to retrieve comp sources misc postings see the faq article how to find sources referred to at the top of section the free jpeg code provides conversion between jpeg jfif format and image files in gif pbmplus ppm pgm utah rle and truevision targa file formats the core compression and decompression modules can easily be reused in other programs such as image viewers the package is highly portable we have tested it on many machines ranging from pcs to crays we have released this software for both noncommercial and commercial use companies are welcome to use it as the basis for jpeg related products we do not ask a royalty although we do ask for an acknowledgement in product literature see the readme file in the distribution for details we hope to make this software industrial quality although as with anything that s free we offer no warranty and accept no liability the independent jpeg group is a volunteer organization if you d like to contribute to improving our software you are welcome to join what s all this hoopla about color quantization most people don t have full color bit per pixel display hardware typical display hardware stores or fewer bits per pixel so it can display or fewer distinct colors at a time to display a full color image the computer must map the image into an appropriate set of representative colors this process is called color quantization this is something of a misnomer color selection would be a better term we re stuck with the standard usage though clearly color quantization is a lossy process it turns out that for most images the details of the color quantization algorithm have much more impact on the final image quality than do any errors introduced by jpeg except at the very lowest jpeg quality settings since jpeg is a full color format converting a color jpeg image for display on bit or less hardware requires color quantization this is true for all color jpegs even if you feed a or less color gif into jpeg what comes out of the decompressor is not colors but thousands of colors this happens because jpeg s lossiness affects each pixel a little differently so two pixels that started with identical colors will probably come out with slightly different colors each original color gets smeared into a group of nearby colors therefore quantization is always required to display a color jpeg on a colormapped display regardless of the image source the only way to avoid quantization is to ask for gray scale output incidentally because of this effect it s nearly meaningless to talk about the number of colors used by a jpeg image even if you attempted to count the number of distinct pixel values different jpeg decoders would give you different results because of roundoff error differences i occasionally see posted images described as color jpeg this tells me that the poster a hasn t read this faq and b probably converted the jpeg from a gif jpegs can be classified as color or gray scale just like photographs but number of colors just isn t a useful concept for jpeg on the other hand a gif image by definition has already been quantized to or fewer colors a gif does have a definite number of colors in its palette and the format doesn t allow more than palette entries for purposes of usenet picture distribution gif has the advantage that the sender precomputes the color quantization so recipients don t have to this is also the disadvantage of gif you re stuck with the sender s quantization if the sender quantized to a different number of colors than what you can display you have to re quantize resulting in much poorer image quality than if you had quantized once from a full color image furthermore if the sender didn t use a high quality color quantization algorithm you re out of luck for this reason jpeg offers the promise of significantly better image quality for all users whose machines don t match the sender s display hardware jpeg s full color image can be quantized to precisely match the user s display hardware furthermore you will be able to take advantage of future improvements in quantization algorithms there is a lot of active research in this area or purchase better display hardware to get a better view of jpeg images you already have with a gif you re stuck forevermore with what was sent it s also worth mentioning that many gif viewing programs include rather shoddy quantization routines if you view a color gif on a color ega display for example you are probably getting a much worse image than you need to this is partly an inevitable consequence of doing two color quantizations one to create the gif one to display it but often it s also due to sloppiness jpeg conversion programs will be forced to use high quality quantizers in order to get acceptable results at all and in normal use they will quantize directly to the number of colors to be displayed thus jpeg is likely to provide better results than the average gif program for low color resolution displays as well as high resolution ones finally an ever growing number of people have better than bit display hardware already bit hi color pc displays true bit displays on workstations and macintoshes etc for these people gif is already obsolete as it cannot represent an image to the full capabilities of their display jpeg images can drive these displays much more effectively thus jpeg is an all around better choice than gif for representing images in a machine independent fashion how does jpeg work the buzz words to know are chrominance subsampling discrete cosine transforms coefficient quantization and huffman or arithmetic entropy coding this article s long enough already so i m not going to say more than that here for technical information see the comp compression faq this is available from the news answers archive at rtfm mit edu in files pub usenet news answers compression faq part if you need help in using the news answers archive see the top of this article what about lossless jpeg there s a great deal of confusion on this subject the jpeg committee did define a truly lossless compression algorithm i e one that guarantees the final output is bit for bit identical to the original input however this lossless mode has almost nothing in common with the regular lossy jpeg algorithm and it offers much less compression at present very few implementations of lossless jpeg exist and all of them are commercial saying q to the free jpeg software does not get you a lossless image what it does get rid of is deliberate information loss in the coefficient quantization step there is still a good deal of information loss in the color subsampling step with the v free jpeg code you can also say sample x to turn off subsampling keep in mind that many commercial jpeg implementations cannot cope with the resulting file even with both quantization and subsampling turned off the regular jpeg algorithm is not lossless because it is subject to roundoff errors in various calculations the maximum error is a few counts in any one pixel value it s highly unlikely that this could be perceived by the human eye but it might be a concern if you are doing machine processing of an image at this minimum loss setting regular jpeg produces files that are perhaps half the size of an uncompressed bit per pixel image true lossless jpeg provides roughly the same amount of compression but it guarantees bit for bit accuracy if you have an application requiring lossless storage of images with less than bits per pixel per color component you may want to look into the jbig bilevel image compression standard this performs better than jpeg lossless on such images jpeg lossless is superior to jbig on images with or more bits per pixel furthermore jpeg is public domain at least with a huffman back end while the jbig techniques are heavily covered by patents why all the argument about file formats strictly speaking jpeg refers only to a family of compression algorithms it does not refer to a specific image file format the jpeg committee was prevented from defining a file format by turf wars within the international standards organizations since we can t actually exchange images with anyone else unless we agree on a common file format this leaves us with a problem in the absence of official standards a number of jpeg program writers have just gone off to do their own thing and as a result their programs aren t compatible with anybody else s the closest thing we have to a de facto standard jpeg format is some work that s been coordinated by people at c cube microsystems they have defined two jpeg based file formats jfif jpeg file interchange format a low end format that transports pixels and not much else tiff jpeg aka tiff an extension of the aldus tiff format tiff is a high end format that will let you record just about everything you ever wanted to know about an image and a lot more besides tiff is a lot more complex than jfif and may well prove less transportable because different vendors have historically implemented slightly different and incompatible subsets of tiff it s not likely that adding jpeg to the mix will do anything to improve this situation both of these formats were developed with input from all the major vendors of jpeg related products it s reasonably likely that future commercial products will adhere to one or both standards i believe that usenet should adopt jfif as the replacement for gif in picture postings jfif is simpler than tiff and is available now the tiff spec has only recently been officially adopted and it is still unusably vague on some crucial details even when tiff jpeg is well defined the jfif format is likely to be a widely supported lowest common denominator tiff jpeg files may never be as transportable a particular case that people may be interested in is apple s quicktime software for the macintosh quicktime uses a jfif compatible format wrapped inside the mac specific pict structure conversion between jfif and quicktime jpeg is pretty straightforward and several mac programs are available to do it see mac portion of section a if you have an editor that handles binary files you can strip a quicktime jpeg pict down to jfif by hand see section for details another particular case is handmade software s programs gif jpg jpg gif and image alchemy these programs are capable of reading and writing jfif format by default though they write a proprietary format developed by hsi this format is not readable by any non hsi programs and should not be used for usenet postings use the j switch to get jfif output this applies to old versions of these programs the current releases emit jfif format by default you still should be careful not to post hsi format files unless you want to get flamed by people on non pc platforms how do i recognize which file format i have and what do i do about it if you have an alleged jpeg file that your software won t read it s likely to be hsi format or some other proprietary jpeg based format you can tell what you have by inspecting the first few bytes of the file a jfif standard file will start with the characters hex ff d ff e followed by two variable bytes often hex followed by jfif if you see ff d at the start but not the rest of it you may have a raw jpeg file this is probably decodable as is by jfif software it s worth a try anyway hsi files start with hsi you re out of luck unless you have hsi software portions of the file may look like plain jpeg data but they won t decompress properly with non hsi programs a macintosh pict file if jpeg compressed will have a couple hundred bytes of header followed by a jfif header scan for jfif strip off everything before the ff d and you should be able to read it anything else it s a proprietary format or not jpeg at all if you are lucky the file may consist of a header and a raw jpeg data stream if you can identify the start of the jpeg data stream look for ff d try stripping off everything before that in uuencoded usenet postings the characteristic jfif pattern is begin line m c x whereas uuencoded hsi files will start with begin line m i if you learn to check for the former you can save yourself the trouble of downloading non jfif files what about arithmetic coding the jpeg spec defines two different back end modules for the final output of compressed data either huffman coding or arithmetic coding is allowed the choice has no impact on image quality but arithmetic coding usually produces a smaller compressed file on typical images arithmetic coding produces a file or percent smaller than huffman coding all the file size numbers previously cited are for huffman coding unfortunately the particular variant of arithmetic coding specified by the jpeg standard is subject to patents owned by ibm at t and mitsubishi thus you cannot legally use arithmetic coding unless you obtain licenses from these companies the fair use doctrine allows people to implement and test the algorithm but actually storing any images with it is dubious at best at least in the short run i recommend that people not worry about arithmetic coding the space savings isn t great enough to justify the potential legal hassles in particular arithmetic coding should not be used for any images to be exchanged on usenet there is some small chance that the legal situation may change in the future stay tuned for further details does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression it would be nice if having compressed an image with jpeg you could decompress it manipulate it crop off a border say and recompress it without any further image degradation beyond what you lost initially unfortunately this is not the case in general recompressing an altered image loses more information though usually not as much as was lost the first time around the next best thing would be that if you decompress an image and recompress it without changing it then there is no further loss i e you get an identical jpeg file even this is not true at least not with the current free jpeg software it s essentially a problem of accumulation of roundoff error if you repeatedly compress and decompress the image will eventually degrade to where you can see visible changes from the first generation output it usually takes many such cycles to get visible change one of the things on our to do list is to see if accumulation of error can be avoided or limited but i am not optimistic about it in any case the most that could possibly be guaranteed would be that compressing the unmodified full color output of djpeg at the original quality setting would introduce no further loss even such simple changes as cropping off a border could cause further roundoff error degradation if you re wondering why it s because the pixel block boundaries move if you cropped off only multiples of pixels you might be safe but that s a mighty limited capability the bottom line is that jpeg is a useful format for archival storage and transmission of images but you don t want to use it as an intermediate format for sequences of image manipulation steps use a lossless format ppm rle tiff etc while working on the image then jpeg it when you are ready to file it away aside from avoiding degradation you will save a lot of compression decompression time this way what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg as stated earlier you will lose some amount of image information if you convert an existing gif image to jpeg if you can obtain the original full color data the gif was made from it s far better to make a jpeg from that but if you need to save space and have only the gif to work from here are some suggestions for getting maximum space savings with minimum loss of quality the first rule when converting a gif library is to look at each jpeg to make sure you are happy with it before throwing away the corresponding gif that will give you a chance to re do the conversion with a higher quality setting if necessary some gifs may be better left as gifs as explained in section in particular cartoon type gifs with sixteen or fewer colors don t convert well you may find that a jpeg file of reasonable quality will be larger than the gif so check the sizes too experience to date suggests that large high visual quality gifs are the best candidates for conversion to jpeg they chew up the most storage so offer the most potential savings and they convert to jpeg with least degradation don t waste your time converting any gif much under kbytes also don t expect jpeg files converted from gifs to be as small as those created directly from full color originals to maintain image quality you may have to let the converted files be as much as twice as big as straight through jpeg files would be i e shoot for or rd the size of the gif file not th as suggested in earlier comparisons many people have developed an odd habit of putting a large constant color border around a gif image while useless this was nearly free in terms of storage cost in gif files it is not free in jpeg files and the sharp border boundary can create visible artifacts ghost edges do yourself a favor and crop off any border before jpeging if you are on an x windows system xv s manual and automatic cropping functions are a very painless way to do this cjpeg s default q setting of is appropriate for full color input but for gif inputs q settings of to often seem to be necessary to avoid image degradation if you apply smoothing as suggested below the higher q setting may not be necessary color gifs of photographs or complex artwork are usually dithered to fool your eye into seeing more than the colors that gif can actually store if you enlarge the image you will see that adjacent pixels are often of significantly different colors at normal size the eye averages these pixels together to produce the illusion of an intermediate color value the trouble with dithering is that to jpeg it looks like high spatial frequency color noise and jpeg can t compress noise very well the resulting jpeg file is both larger and of lower image quality than what you would have gotten from jpeging the original full color image if you had it to get around this you want to smooth the gif image before compression smoothing averages together nearby pixels thus approximating the color that you thought you saw anyway and in the process getting rid of the rapid color changes that give jpeg trouble appropriate use of smoothing will often let you avoid using a high q factor thus further reducing the size of the compressed file while still obtaining a better looking output image than you d get without smoothing with the v free jpeg software or products based on it a simple smoothing capability is built in try smooth or so when converting gifs values of to seem to work well for high quality gifs heavy handed dithering may require larger smoothing factors if you can see regular fine scale patterns on the gif image even without enlargement then strong smoothing is definitely called for too large a smoothing factor will blur the output image which you don t want if you are an image processing wizard you can also do smoothing with a separate filtering program such as pnmconvol from the pbmplus package however cjpeg s built in smoother is a lot faster than pnmconvol the upshot of all this is that cjpeg quality smooth is probably a good starting point for converting gifs but if you really care about the image you ll want to check the results and maybe try a few other settings for more information about jpeg in general or the free jpeg software in particular contact the independent jpeg group at jpeg info uunet uu net tom lane organizer independent jpeg group internet tgl cs cmu edu bitnet tgl cs cmu edu carnegie
comp.graphics	re cview answers well the temp file thing creates an obvious problem it is impossible to use cview for viewing cd rom based picture collections and it is the only non windows viewer that works properly with my cirrus based bit vga
comp.graphics	re cview answers re majority of users not readding from floppy well how about those of us who have picture cd roms and would like to use cview because it is fast and it works well but can t because the moron lacked the foresight to create the temp file in the program s path not the current didrectory
comp.graphics	needed plotting package that does looking for a graphics cad or whatever package on a x unix box that will take a file with records like n a b p where n a count integer a entity a string b entity b string p type string and produce a networked graph with nodes represented with boxes or circles and the vertices represented by lines and the width of the line determined by n there would be a different line type for each type of vertice the boxes need to be identified with the entity s name the number of entities and vertices it would be nice if the tool minimized line cross overs and did a good job of layout i have looked in the faq for comp graphics and gnuplot without success any ideas would be appreciated thanks glen fullmer glen fullmer pts mot com for a successful technology reality must take precedence over public relations for nature cannot be fooled richard p feynman
comp.graphics	re video in out organization a world of information at your fingertips keywords in article toontown columbiasc ncr com craig toontown columbiasc ncr com craig s williamson writes i m getting ready to buy a multimedia workstation and would like a little advice i need a graphics card that will do video in and out under windows i was originally thinking of a targa but that doesn t work under windows what cards should i be looking into thanks craig to forgive is divine to be craig williamson an airhead is human craig williamson columbiasc ncr com balki bartokomas craig toontown columbiasc ncr com home perfect strangers craig you should still consider the targa i run windows on it all the time at work and it works fine i think all you need is the right driver josh west email mscrap halcyon com
comp.graphics	gl and fli specs can somebody point out to me where i can find the specs for gl and fli files found on pc s arthur qedbbs com arthur choung or qed arthur the qed bbs
comp.graphics	re ms windows graphics viewer check out image pals v from u lead until may special intro price it has the basic image processing tools for all major formats does screen grabbing and allows all your image files to be calalogged into a thumbnail database it s great don
comp.graphics	re ms windows screen grabber summary hi again many thanks to all the people who responded to my request for a ms windows screen grabber it proves to me again that the net is a wonderful thing so in summary there are two choices various screen grabber packages corel draw has one there are a couple on simtel and cica use the built in printscreen and alt printscreen functionality to paste the screen or window to the clipboard then paste the clipboard to your application cool again thanks for the info grant the ms windows newbie unix and x are my bag grant totten programmer analyst trent university peterborough ontario gtotten trentu ca phone fax a woman s place is in the wrong james thurber
comp.graphics	tiff next appsoft draw gif conversion okay all my friends are bitching at me that the map i made in appsoft draw can t be displayed in xv i checked it s true at least with version my readers on the next have very little trouble on it preview messes up the eps but does fine with the tiff and imageviewer a behaves with flying colors except it doesn t convert worth please is there any way i can convert this drw from appsoft on the next to something more reasonable like gif i have access to a sun and nextstep systems any good reliable conversion programs would be helpful please email i ll post responses if anyone wants me to please email that to yes i used alphachannel god i could choke steve jobs right now yes i know how to archie but tell me what to archie for also is there a way to convert to ps plain format imageviiewer turns out nothing recognizable terrychay small editorial rw r r tychay apr undernet tiff rw r r tychay apr undernet tiff z and not using gzip is it me or is there something wrong with this format
comp.graphics	d bitmap interpolation yesterday i wrote a program to do bilinear interpolation ala numerical recipes with the pbmplus libraries i m pretty happy with the results but i m looking for any already coded non linear interpolation schemes before i go ahead an try to write one any pointers dave disser um caen user services wealth is wasted disser engin umich edu chrysler center on the old ann arbor mi
comp.graphics	cd rom indexes available the file and contents listings for knowledge media resource library graphics knowledge media resource library audio are now available for anonymous ftp from cdrom com
comp.graphics	re so what is the fastest windows video c in article apr exu ericsson se ebuhcb ebu ericsson se writes in article apr trentu ca ayounes trentu ca amro younes trent university c c peterborough on canada k j b writes i have the ati graphics ultra pro eisa version i must admit it has received bad press but that was due to the faulty drivers it had pc magazine seems to be impressed with the ati card in their most recent reviews in the april th issue they rate the ati graphics ultra pro eisa version as their editor s choice they noted that the drivers had improved since they tested the isa version in january cuyler yeah they also gave it their editor s choice in the run down of graphics accelerators they tested in the previous issue which is why i bought and then returned mine the only conclusion i can come up with is that pc magazine has wildly different ways on determining the worthiness of a video card than i do david farley the university of chicago library east th street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	help need jpeg mpeg encod decode i am involve in a distant learning project and am in need of jpeg and mpeg encode decode source and object code this is a not for profit project that once completed i hope to release to other educational and institutional learning centers this project requires that true photographic images be sent over plain telephone lines in addition if there is a real good gui lib with d objects and all types of menu classes that can be use at both end of the transaction server and terminal end i would like to hear about it we recently posted an rfd announcing the otg open telematic group that will concern itself with the developement of such application and that it would incorporate naplps jpeg mpeg voice ivr fax sprites animation fli flc etc at present only dos and unix environment is being worked on and it our hope that we can generate enough interest where all the major platform can be accomodated via a plaform independent api toolkit sdk we are of the mind that it is about time that such project and group be form to deal with these issues we want to setup a repository where these files may be access such as simte and start putting together a otg faq if you have some or any information that in your opinion would be of interest to the otg community and you like to see included in our first faq please send it email to the address below thanks in advance ed p o box atlanta ga zyxel epimntl world std com ed pimentel gisatl fidonet org edimg willard atl ga us ed pimentel gatech kd nc vdbsan willard edimg emory uumind willard edimg willard s house bbs atlanta ga
comp.graphics	scanned grey to color equations a while back someone had several equations which could be used for changing f iltered grey scale images into one true color image this is possible because it s the same theory used by most color scanners i am not looking for the obv ious solution which is to buy a color scanner but what i do need is those equat ions becasue i am starting to write software which will automate the conversion process i would really appreciate it if someone would repost the equations unknowns thanks for the help
comp.graphics	pov tga s and speedstar i finally got a bit viewer for my povray generated tga files it was written in c by sean malloy and he kindly sent me a copy he wrote it for the same purpose to view tga files using his speedstar it only works with the speedstar and i cannot send copies since it is not my program i believe the author may release a version at a future time when the program is more developed he may or may not comment on this as he pleases thanks to all who were helpful regards jim nobles
comp.graphics	need algorithm for reading and displaying bitmap files i m making a customized paint program in dos and need an algorithm for reading bitmap files like gif pcx or bmp does anyone have such an algorithm i ve tried copying one out of a book for reading pcx format but it doesn t work i will take an algorithm for any format that can be created from windows paint thanks toni
comp.graphics	images of earth i am looking for some graphic images of earth shot from space preferably bit color but color gif s will do anyways if anyone knows an ftp site where i can find these i d greatly appreciate it if you could pass the information on thanks please send email ken huisman ken cs ualberta ca
comp.graphics	re sphere from points in article qkgbuinns n shelley u washington edu bolson carson u washington edu edward bolson writes given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that is center and radius exactly fitting those points finding the circumcenter of a tetrahedron is discussed on page in contouring a guide to the analysis and display of spatial data by dave watson pergamon press isbn p each pair of tetrahedral vertices define a plane which is a perpendicular bisector of the line between that pair express each plane in the form ax by cz d and solve the set of simultaneous equations from any three of those planes that have a vertex in common all vertices are used the solution is the circumcenter dave watson internet watson maths uwa edu au department of mathematics the university of western australia tel nedlands wa australia fax
comp.graphics	paintprogram wanted excuse the sheer newbieness of this post but i am looking for a decent paintprogram which will save to various file formats bmp pcx etc etc via ftp freeware or shareware i would like to check out the available programs for little before i check out the commercial market thanks in advance for any help or direction you can give me daemon
comp.graphics	vesa as a graphics standard in the u ibm pc world how much of a standard has vesa become for svga graphics i know there are lots of graphics board companies out there as well as several graphics chips manufacturers are they adhering to the vesa standard and what effect is will the vesa local bus have on all of this anyone
comp.graphics	where s dmorf could anyone direct me to the ftp site where i can find the dos based morphing package called dmorf zip i had downloaded this file last week but the new dos crashed my hard drive and i lost it now i can t find the site where i got it from also are there any other morphing packages out for dos freeware or shareware thanks in advance barry egerter obelix gaul csd uwo ca author of wgt graphics toolkit for vga version now available turbo borland c or better joystick mouse graphics primitives non bgi power gif pcx data storage sprites multiway scrolling games bitmap warping resizing sb support fli egerter obelix gaul csd uwo ca
comp.graphics	re sphere from points i plan to post a summary of responses to this as soon as i have working code which i will also include the intersection of planes method looks best but my implementation based on a short article in graphics gems i doesn t work i may be misinterpreting of course i had avoided the simultaneous solution of the plane equations in favor of dot and cross products but the former may actually be better in either case a matrix determinant needs to be computed implicitly in the solution of linear equations to get the planes i was taking the midpoint of the line from say p to p and setting the normal as the normalized vector from p to p these just plugged into the formula in graphics gems however the resulting center point is only occasionally equidistant from all of my test points for different tests my matrix vector math is very rusty but it looks like i need to verify the formula or use the simultaneous equation solution which will require bringing in another routine i don t have but should be easy to find another method is to first find the center of the circle defined by sets of points and intersecting the normals from there this would also define the circle center however small numerical imprecisions would make the lines not intersect supposedly planes have to intersect in a unique point if they are not parallel ed thanks to all who answered so far ed bolson university of washington cardiovascular research bolson u washington edu preferred bolson max bitnet bolson milton u washington edu if you must
comp.graphics	sphere from points another method is to first find the center of the circle defined by sets of points and intersecting the normals from there this would also define the circle center however small numerical imprecisions would make the lines not intersect supposedly planes have to intersect in a unique point if they are not parallel having thought about this why don t you project the lines onto the d plane formed by the lines do an intersection calculation in the plane in d where you re guaranteed a unique solution unless they re parallel which won t happen in this case and then use parametric distance along the lines from the circle centres to determine the exact point of interest this bypasses the messy error propogation required to do the calculation in d hope i haven t put my foot in it again steve steven collins email steve crl hitachi co jp visiting computer graphics researcher phone hitachi central research lab tokyo fax
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo rchland vnet ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado writes in article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes ricardo the animation playback to which lawrence was referring in an earlier post is plain old quicktime with the compact video codec i ve seen digitized video some of apple s early commercials to be precise running on a centris at about fps very nicely bit color depth i would expect that using the same algorithm a risc processor should be able to approach full screen full motion animation though as you ve implied the processor will be taxed more with highly dynamic material sean i don t want to get into a mini war by what i am going to say but i have to be a little bit skeptic about the performance you are claiming on the centris you ll see why please no flames i reserve those for c s m a i was in chicago in the last consumer electronics show and apple had a booth there i walked by and they were showing real time video capture using a radious or supermac card to digitize and make right on the spot quicktime movies i think the quicktime they were using was the old one that is in fact the current version it only came out in december they digitized a guy talking there in x xx something it played back quite nicely and in real time the guy then expanded the window resized to x by xx in y i think and the frame rate decreased enough to notice that it wasn t fps or about fps anymore it dropped to like fps then he increased it just a bit more and it dropped to fps then i asked him what mac he was using he was using a quadra don t know what model to do it and he was telling the guys there that the quicktime could play back at the same speed even on an lcii well i spoiled his claim so to say since a quadra mac was having a little bit of trouble and this wasn t even from the hardisk this was from memory my test movie was created at resolution it wasn t being scaled up scaling was a very cpu intensive operation with the original quicktime the current version has optimizations for ratios like but even so i m prepared to believe that the performance isn t as good as with playing back an actual movie i haven t done any numerical measurements for scaled playback lawrence d oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university of waikato electric mail ldo waikato ac nz hamilton new zealand s e gmt
comp.graphics	chaos editions idea internation directory of electronic arts i ve borrowed the version of this book from a friend holy moley what a wealth of contacts five hundred pages of information about electronic artists and organizations around the globe many have email addresses an up to the minute database of this information is also available on minitel the book s based in france are there any internet minitel gates the book is printed in french and english to have you or your organization listed in idea just send your information to annick bureaud idea rue falguiere paris france it s free to be listed in it i m not sure how widely distributed the book is or how much it costs i m not affiliated with them in any way i was just impressed by their collection of organizations and artists i highly encourage all involved in electronic media video music graphics animation etc to send in your entry and encourage them to make their database available on internet e ed stastny otis project end process sound news and arts po bx ftp sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis omaha ne projects otis email ed cwis unomaha edu ed sunsite unc edu
comp.graphics	re images of earth in apr kakwa ucs ualberta ca ken cs ualberta ca huisman kenneth m writes i am looking for some graphic images of earth shot from space preferably bit color but color gif s will do anyways if anyone knows an ftp site where i can find these i d greatly appreciate it if you could pass the information on thanks try ftp ing at pub info jpl nasa gov simple dir structure and ames arc nasa gov at pub space gif and pub space jpeg sorry only bits gifs and jpegs great piccy s though try the x gif files they re semi huge gif a files watch out gif a dead ahead good luck good software to be found out there too jurriaan jhwitten cs ruu nl jhwitten cs ruu nl jurriaan wittenberg department of computerscience utrecht the netherlands
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article bd news service uci edu rbarris orion oac uci edu robert c barris writes i m not sure how a centris mhz stacks up against the mhz arm in the do box obviously the arm is faster but how much why would it have to be much faster it probably is assuming an arm is about as efficient as a mips r for integer calculations doing a compact video like digital video codec is an easy task for software motion pictures which is a lot like compact video though it predates it we get frames sec at x on a decstation that machine has a mhz mips r burkhard neidecker lutz distributed multimedia group cec karlsruhe eerp portfolio manager software motion pictures berkom ii project multimedia base technology digital equipment corporation neidecker nestvx enet dec com
comp.graphics	re sphere from points spworley netcom com steve worley writes bolson carson u washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that is center and radius exactly fitting those points i know how to do it for a circle from points but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in d i have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but am still at a loss please have mercy on me and provide the solution it s not a bad question i don t have any refs that list this algorithm either but thinking about it a bit it shouldn t be too hard take three of the points and find the plane they define as well as the circle that they lie on you say you have this algorithm already find the center of this circle the line passing through this center perpendicular to the plane of the three points passes through the center of the sphere repeat with the unused point and two of the original points this gives you two different lines that both pass through the sphere s origin their interection is the center of the sphere the radius is easy to compute it s just the distance from the center to any of the original points i ll leave the math to you but this is a workable algorithm good i had a bad feeling about this problem because of a special case with no solution that worried me four coplanar points in the shape of a square have no unique sphere that they are on the surface of similarly colinear point have no finite sized sphere that they are on the surface of these algorithms being geometrical designed rather than algebraically design meet these problems neatly when determining which plane the points are on if they are colinear the algorithm should afil or return infinite r when intersecting the two lines there are possibilities they are the same line the points were on a planar circle they are different lines but parallel there is a sphere of in radius this last case can be achieved with colinier points and any th point by taking the th point and pairs of the first parallel lines will be produced it can also be achieved by if all points are coplanar but are not on one circle it seems to me that the algorithm only fails when the points are coplanar the algorithm always fails when the points are coplanar points being colinear coplanar testing if the th point is coplanar when the plane of the first points has been found is trivial an alternate method would be to take pairs of points the plane formed by the perpendicular bisector of each line segment pair also contains the center of the sphere three pairs will form three planes intersecting at a point this might be easier to implement steve spworley netcom com
comp.graphics	re images of earth look in the pub space directory on ames arc nasa gov there are a number of earth images there you may have to hunt around the subdirectories as things tend to be filed under the mission ie apollo rather than under the image subject rick
comp.graphics	re cview answers renew blade stack urc tue nl rene walter writes a very kind soul has mailed me this reply for the bugs in cview since he isn t in the position to post this himself he asked me to post it for him but to leave his name out so here it comes cview has quite a number of bugs the one you mention is perhaps the most a stupid question but what will cview run on and where can i get it i am still in need of a gif viewer for linux without x windows thanks
comp.graphics	re cview answers in apr whiting mcs com sean whiting mcs com sean gum writes a stupid question but what will cview run on and where can i get it i am still in need of a gif viewer for linux without x windows thanks ho boy there is no way in hell you are going to be able to view gifs or do any other graphics in linux without x windows i love linux because it is so easy to learn you want text okay use linux you want text and graphics use linux with x windows simple painless required to have x windows if you want graphics this includes fancy word processors like doc image viewers like xv etc
comp.graphics	re cview answers in qlobb p a tuegate tue nl renew blade stack urc tue nl rene walter writes most info regarding dangers of reading from floppy disks omitted unrevcoverable way so be careful it is incredibly poor programming for a program to do this on the other hand when choosing files in the open files menu cview insists on doing a few disk reads every time one moves the hi lighter square incredibly annoying when it could do them all at once when it gets the directory info and really how much effort does it take to sort a directory listing in all fairness how many people do you know personally who read images from floppy drives i haven t tried it with jpegs but i do realize how agonizingly slow it is with gif files nevertheless it is an important bug that needs to be squashed i am merely pointing out that it was probably overlooked while it is serious one must keep in mind that it will probably affect at most of the targeted users of cview
comp.graphics	re cview answers renew blade stack urc tue nl rene walter writes over where it places its temp files it just places them in its current directory i have to beg to differ on this point as the batch file i use to launch cview cd s to the dir where cview resides and then invokes it every time i crash cview the byte temp file is found in the root dir of the drive cview is on just my cb cyberspace buddha why are you looking for more knowledge when you o cb wixer bga com do not pay attention to what you already know o cb wixer cactus org get out of my chair hillary to god peace
comp.graphics	help need d graphics code package for dos help i need code package whatever to take d data and turn it into a wireframe surface with hidden lines removed i m using a dos machine and the code can be in ansi c or c ansi fortran or basic the data i m using forms a rectangular grid please post your replies to the net so that others may benefit imho this is a general interest question thank you
comp.graphics	re vesa on the speedstar just posting to john cormack i wanted to tell you that there is a slight difference between speedstar and speedstar x stefan
comp.graphics	converting images to hp laserjet iii does anyone know of a good way standard pc application pd utility to convert tif img tga files into laserjet iii format we would also like to do the same converting to hpgl hp plotter files please email any response is this the correct group thanks in advance michael michael collier programmer the computer unit email m p collier uk ac city the city university tel x london fax ec v hb
comp.graphics	comp graphics programmer hello netters sorry i don t know if this is the right way of doing this kind of thing probably should be a cfv but since i don t have tha ability to create a news group myself i just want to start the discussion i enjoy reading c g very much but i often find it difficult to sort out what i m interested in everything from screen drivers graphics cards graphics programming and graphics programs are discused here what i d like is a comp graphics programmer news group what do you other think arff also for the not religous confessor there is a mystery of higher values who s birth mankind to the last builds upon they are indisputible and often disregarded seldom you hear them beeing prized as seldom as you hear a seeing man prizeing what he sees per lagerkvist the fist free translation from swedish andreas arff andreasa dhhalden no
comp.graphics	re help need d graphics code package for dos n ba tamvm tamu edu wrote help i need code package whatever to take d data and turn it into a wireframe surface with hidden lines removed i m using a dos machine and the code can be in ansi c or c ansi fortran or basic the data i m using forms a rectangular grid please post your replies to the net so that others may benefit imho this is a general interest question thank you
comp.graphics	surface intersections i have a problem with intersections between two surfaces does anybody have a easy to understand algorithm for that or maybe even c source marco seirio in real life sp marse caligula his s
comp.graphics	wanted atomic energy res establishment uk techreport i m looking for the following paper marlow s and powell m j d a fortran subroutine for plotting the part of a conic that is inside a given triangle rep r atomic energy res establishment harwell england or anything related including d cases max max froumentin laboratoire d informatique always better never first fondamentale de lille tigran petrossian france
comp.graphics	re bit graphics cards i am looking for eisa or vesa local bus graphic cards that support at least x x resolution i know matrox has one but it is very expensive all the other cards i know of that support that resoultion are striaght isa what about the elsa winner s bt mb eisa or the metheus premier vl s bt mb isa vl also are there any x servers for a unix pc that support bits as it just happens sgcs has a xserver x that does x x on those cards please email to info sgcs com for more details thomas das reh springt hoch e mail roell sgcs com das reh springt weit include sys pizza h was soll es tun es hat ja zeit
comp.graphics	need a viewer for gl files hi the subject says it all is there a pd viewer for gl files for x thanks dominik
comp.graphics	radiosity radiosity sources wanted when i read the comp graphics group i never found something about radiosity is there anybody interested in out there i would be glad to hear from somebody i am looking for source code for the radiosity method i have already read common literature e g foley i think little examples could help me to understand how radiosity works common languages c c pascal prefered i hope you will help me yours peter
comp.graphics	borland turbo c libraries for s graphics card i ve recently got hold of a pc with an s card in it and i d like to do some c programming with it are there any libraries out there that will let me access the high resolution modes available via borland turbo c andy
comp.graphics	re radiosity in article rz uni jena de hahm fossi hab weimar de peter hahm writes radiosity sources wanted when i read the comp graphics group i never found something about radiosity is there anybody interested in out there i would be glad to hear from somebody i am looking for source code for the radiosity method i have already read common literature e g foley i think little examples could help me to understand how radiosity works common languages c c pascal prefered i hope you will help me yours peter peter there s a radiosity package ahead the only problem is there are a few miles to sail let s be serious i m working on a radiosity package written in c i would like to make it public domain i ll announce it in c g the minute i finished it that were the good news the bad news it ll take another months at least to finish it in the meantime you may have a look at the file radiosity code tar z located at compute cc ncsu edu there are some other locations have a look at archie to get the nearest hope that ll help yours stephan stephan amann sig computer graphics university of berne switzerland amann iam unibe ch tel fax projects radiosity raytracing computer graphics
comp.graphics	re needed plotting package that does in article full gl apr dolphin pts mot com full gl pts mot com glen fullmer writes looking for a graphics cad or whatever package on a x unix box that will take a file with records like n a b p where n a count integer a entity a string b entity b string p type string and produce a networked graph with nodes represented with boxes or circles and the vertices represented by lines and the width of the line determined by n there would be a different line type for each type of vertice the boxes need to be identified with the entity s name the number of entities and vertices it would be nice if the tool minimized line cross overs and did a good job of layout i have looked in the faq for comp graphics and gnuplot without success any ideas would be appreciated thanks glen fullmer glen fullmer pts mot com hi see roger grywalski s response to re help on network visualization in comp graphics visualization amongst other things it does exactly this chris murphy chris alta oh com columbus oh
comp.graphics	re rumours about do first off thanks to all who have filled me in on the existence of the i assumed rashly that the particular number would be reserved for further enhancements to the motorola line rather than meted out to another company ah well i guess that s what i get when i assume the computer industry will operate in a logical manner in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes sean i don t want to get into a mini war by what i am going to say but i have to be a little bit skeptic about the performance you are claiming on the centris you ll see why please no flames i reserve those for c s m a i was in chicago in the last consumer electronics show and apple had a booth there i walked by and they were showing real time video capture using a radious or supermac card to digitize and make right on the spot quicktime movies i think the quicktime they were using was the old one version of quicktime is as has been stated the current version of the software the older version is and is on the horizon in the not too distant future they digitized a guy talking there in x xx something it played back quite nicely and in real time the guy then expanded the window resized to x by xx in y i think and the frame rate decreased enough to notice that it wasn t fps or about fps anymore it dropped to like fps then he increased it just a bit more and it dropped to fps quicktime does a much better job of playing back movies at size than it does playing back resized movies apparently the process of expanding each frame s image and dithering the resultant bitmap to the appropriate bit depth is pretty processor intensive there are optimizers that work pretty well for showing movies at double size but if you drop to x size or increase to x size performance suffers dramatically then i asked him what mac he was using he was using a quadra don t know what model to do it and he was telling the guys there that the quicktime could play back at the same speed even on an lcii he lied quicktime is very cpu dependent he was probably confused by the fact that qt is locked to an internal timecode and will play in the same amount of time on any machine however an lc will drop frames in order to keep the sound and video synced up the centris and quadras have similar cpus and will thus boast similar performance though the quadras will be a bit faster due to marginally faster clock speeds and somewhat different architecture well i spoiled his claim so to say since a quadra mac was having a little bit of trouble and this wasn t even from the hardisk this was from memory could it be that you saw either a newer version of quicktime or some hardware assisted centris or another software product running the animation like supposedly macromind s accelerator i expect that the version of the quicktime software you saw was i was using was one of the new codecs in v allows video at nearly twice the size and the same frame rate as what version could handle the centris i saw was a plain vanilla with the exception of the nice speakers that were playing the sound and the software was movie player the qt player apple includes with the software don t misunderstand me i just want to clarify this no problem it still surprises me that quicktime is able to do the things it does as well as it can sean mcmains check out the gopher phone university of north texas new bands info server fax p o box at seanmac acs unt edu e mail denton tx mcmains unt edu
comp.graphics	re images of earth in c q hk kod hawnews watson ibm com ricky watson ibm com rick turner writes look in the pub space directory on ames arc nasa gov there are a number of earth images there you may have to hunt around the subdirectories as things tend to be filed under the mission ie apollo rather than under the image subject for those of you who don t need bit i got a colour amiga iff of a cloudless earth scanned looks okay when mapped on a sphere e mail me and i ll send it you louis i m hanging on your words living on your breath feeling with your skin will i always be here in your room dm
comp.graphics	removing distortion from bitmapped drawings let s say you have a scanned image of a line drawing in this case a boat but it could be anything on the drawing you have a set of reference points whose true x y positions are known now you digitize the drawing manually in this case using yaron danon s excellent digitize program that is you use a program which converts cursor positions to x y and saves those values when you click the mouse upon digitizing you notice that the reference point values that come out of the digitizing process differ in small but significant ways from the known true values this is understandable because the scanned drawing is a reproduction of the original and there are successive sources of distortion such as differential expansion and contraction of paper errors introduced in the printing process scanner errors and what have you the errors are not uniform over the entire drawing so global adjustments such as stretching contracting uniformly over x or y or rotating the whole drawing are not satisfactory so the question is does any kind soul know of an algorithm for removing such distortion in particular if i have three sets of points reference x y the known true values distortedreference x y the same points with known errors distorteddata x y other points with unknown errors what function of reference and distorted could i apply to distorteddata to remove the errors i suspect the problem could be solved by treating the distorted reference points as resulting from the projection of a bumpy d surface solving for the surface and then flattening it to remove the errors in the other data points any kind and informed soul out there have any ideas or better yet pointers to treatments of the same or similar problems thanks earl
comp.graphics	help grasp hi could anyone tell me if it s possible to save each frame of a gl grasp animation to gif jpg iff or any other picture formats i ve got some animations that i d like to transfer to my amiga i really hope that someone can help me cheers haavard nesse trondheim college of engineering trondheim norway
comp.graphics	re comp graphics programmer in article andreasa dhhalden no andreasa dhhalden no andreas arff writes hello netters sorry i don t know if this is the right way of doing this kind of thing probably should be a cfv but since i don t have tha ability to create a news group myself i just want to start the discussion i enjoy reading c g very much but i often find it difficult to sort out what i m interested in everything from screen drivers graphics cards graphics programming and graphics programs are discused here what i d like is a comp graphics programmer news group what do you other think this sounds wonderful but it seems no one either wants to spend time doing this or they don t have the power to do so for example i would like to see a comp graphics architecture like this comp graphics algorithms d comp graphics algorithms d comp graphics algorithms misc comp graphics hardware comp graphics misc comp graphics software apps however that is almost overkill something more like this would probably make everyone a lot happier comp graphics programmer comp graphics hardware comp graphics apps comp graphics misc it would be nice to see specialized groups devote to d d morphing raytracing image processing interactive graphics toolkits languages object systems etc but these could be posted to a relevant group or have a mailing list organized that way when someone reads news they don t have to see these subject headings which are rather disparate system specific stuff should be under comp sys or comp os programmer need help programming gl modex programming information fast sprites on pc hardware technical stuff speed of weitek p drivers for speedstar x applications oriented stuff vistapro help how good is dstudio best image processing program for amiga programming oriented stuff fast polygon routine needed good morphing alogirhtm wanted best depth sort for triangles which c library to get i wish someone with the power would get a cfd and then a cfv going on this stuff this newsgroup needs it brian
comp.graphics	re cview answers bryanw rahul net bryan woodworth writes in apr whiting mcs com sean whiting mcs com sean gum writes a stupid question but what will cview run on and where can i get it i am still in need of a gif viewer for linux without x windows thanks ho boy there is no way in hell you are going to be able to view gifs or do any other graphics in linux without x windows i love linux because it is so easy to learn you want text okay use linux you want text and graphics use linux with x windows simple painless required to have x windows if you want graphics this includes fancy word processors like doc image viewers like xv etc ummm i beg to differ a kind soul sent me a program called dpg view that will do exactly what i want view gif images under linux without x windows and it does support all the way up to x the biggest complaint i have is it is painfully slow it takes about minute to display an image i am use to cshow under dos which takes a split second any idea why it is so slow under linux anybody have anything better plus anybody have the docs to dpg view thanks
comp.graphics	re help need d graphics code package for dos in article apr ugle unit no razor swix nvg unit no runar jordahl writes n ba tamvm tamu edu wrote help i need code package whatever to take d data and turn it into a wireframe surface with hidden lines removed i m using a dos machine and the code can be in ansi c or c ansi fortran or basic the data i m using forms a rectangular grid is a general interest question thank you i m afraid your reply didn t get thru i do appreciate you trying to reply however please try again
comp.graphics	re postscript drawing prog in article c ecnn qo mentor cc purdue edu nish cv chem purdue edu nishantha i writes could somebody let me know of a drawing utility that can be used to manipulate postscript files i am specifically interested in drawing lines boxes and the sort on postscript contour plots i have tried xfig and i am impressed by it s features however it is of no use since i cannot use postscript files as input for the programme is there a utility that converts postscript to xfig format any help would be greatly appreciated nishantha i think you are too optimistic postscript is a very big language and so the fig format can not be able to be an interpreter of any arbitrary ps code the only program i know to manipulate postscript files is islanddraw i for myself use xfig and include the postscript files converted to epsi format small changes then are possible erasing some letters adding text and so on reinhard
comp.graphics	siggraph conference on understanding images nyc acm siggraph understanding images subject pace university siggraph conference on understanding images the purpose of this conference is to bring together a breadth of disciplines including the physical biological and computational sciences technology art psychology philosophy and education in order to define and discuss the issues essential to image understanding within the computer graphics context featured topics include psychology perception image analysis design text sound philosophy date friday saturday may time am pm place the pace downtown theater one pace plaza on spruce street between park row gold street ny ny fees pre registration prior to may members non members students proof of f t status required registration after may or on site all attendees registration fee includes brakfast breaks lunch send registration information fees to dr francis t marchese computer science department nyc acm siggraph conference pace university pace plaza room t new york ny voice fax email marchesf pacevm bitnet registration information name title company street address city state zip day phone evening phone fax phone email detailed description artists designers scientists engineers and educators share the problem of moving information from one mind to another traditionally they have used pictures words demonstrations music and dance to communicate imagery however expressing complex notions such as god and infinity or a seemingly well defined concept such as a flower can present challenges which far exceed their technical skills the explosive use of computers as visualization and expression tools has compounded this problem in hypermedia multimedia and virtual reality systems vast amounts of information confront the observer or participant wading through a multitude of simultaneous images and sounds in possibly unfamiliar representions a confounded user asks what does it all mean since image construction transmission reception decipherment and ultimate understanding are complex tasks strongly influenced by physiology education and culture and since electronic media radically amplify each processing step then we as electronic communicators must determine the fundamental paradigms for composing imagery for understanding therefore the purpose of this conference is to bring together a breadth of disciplines including but not limited to the physical biological and computational sciences technology art psychology philosophy and education in order to define and discuss the issues essential to image understanding within the computer graphics context featured speakers include psychology perception marc de may university of ghent beverly j jones university of oregon barbara tversky standfor university michael j shiffer mit tom hubbard ohio state university image analysis a ravishankar rao ibm watson research center nalini bhusan smith college xiaopin hu university of illinois narenda ahuja university of illinois les m sztander university of toledo design mark bajuk university of illinois alyce kaprow mit text xia lin pace university john loustau hunter college jong ding wang hunter college judson rosebush judson rosebush co sound matthew witten university of texas robert wyatt center for high performance computing robert s williams pace university rory stuart nynex philosophy michael heim education foundation of dpma
comp.graphics	re fake virtual reality mike peredo mindlink bc ca mike peredo writes the most ridiculous example of vr exploitation i ve seen so far is the virtual reality clothing company which recently opened up in vancouver as far as i can tell it s just another chic clothes spot although it would be interesting if they were selling virtual clothing e mail me if you want me to dig up their phone and you can probably get some promotional lit i understand there have been a couple of raves in la billing themselves as virtual reality parties what i hear they do is project gif images around on the walls as well as run animations through a newtek toaster seems like we need to adopt the term really virtual reality or something except for the non immersive stuff which is virtually really virtual reality etc mp samuel pratice safe signature prevent dangerous signature virii guildenstern our names shouted in a certain dawn a message a summons there must have been a moment at the beginning where we could have said no but somehow we missed it
comp.graphics	re removing distortion from bitmapped drawings in article apr sctc com boebert sctc com earl boebert writes let s say you have a scanned image of a line drawing in this case a boat but it could be anything on the drawing you have a set of reference points whose true x y positions are known now you digitize the drawing manually in this case using yaron danon s excellent digitize program that is you use a program which converts cursor positions to x y and saves those values when you click the mouse upon digitizing you notice that the reference point values that come out of the digitizing process differ in small but significant ways from the known true values this is understandable because the scanned drawing is a reproduction of the original and there are successive sources of distortion such as differential expansion and contraction of paper errors introduced in the printing process scanner errors and what have you the errors are not uniform over the entire drawing so global adjustments such as stretching contracting uniformly over x or y or rotating the whole drawing are not satisfactory so the question is does any kind soul know of an algorithm for removing such distortion in particular if i have three sets of points reference x y the known true values distortedreference x y the same points with known errors distorteddata x y other points with unknown errors what function of reference and distorted could i apply to distorteddata to remove the errors i suspect the problem could be solved by treating the distorted reference points as resulting from the projection of a bumpy d surface solving for the surface and then flattening it to remove the errors in the other data points it helps to have some idea of the source of the distortion or at least a reasonable model of the class of distortion below is a very short description of the process which we use if you have further questions feel free to poke me via e mail assume locally smooth distortion compute the delaunay triangulation of your x y points this defines the set of neighbors for each point if your data are not naturally convex you may have very long edges on the convex hull consider deleting these edges now there are two goals a move the distorteddata x y to the reference x y b keep the length e as measured from the current x y s as close as possible to the digitizedlength e as measured using the digitized x y s for every point compute a displacement based on a and b for example a for x y points for which you know the reference x y you can move alpha reference x y current x y this will slowly move the distortedreference x y towards the reference x y b for all other points examine the current length of each edge for each edge compute a displacement which would make that edge the correct length where correct is the digitizedlength take the vector sum of these edge displacements and move the point alpha sumofedgedisplacements this will keep the triangulated mesh consistent with your digitized mesh iterate until you are happy for example no point moves very much alpha and alpha need to be determined by experimentation consider how much you believe the reference x y i e do you absolutely insist on the final points exactly matching the references or do you want to balance some error in matching the reference against changes in length of the edges warning there are a couple of geometric invariants which must be observed essentially you can t allow the convex hull to change and you can t allow triangles to fold over neighboring triangles both of these can be handled either by special case checks on the motion of individual points or by periodically re triangulating the points using the current positions but still calculating digitizedlength from the original positions when we first did this the triangulation time was prohibitive so we only did it once if i were motivated to try and change code that has been working in production mode for years i might go back and re triangulate on every iteration if you have more compute power than you know what to do with you might consider having every point interact with every other point but first read up on linear solutions to the n body problem there are lots of papers in the last years of siggraph proceedings on springs constraints and energy calculations which are relevant the above method is described in more or less detail in inproceedings sloan author sloan jr kenneth r and david meyers and christine a curcio title reconstruction and display of the retina booktitle proceedings graphics interface vision interface address vancouver canada pages month may year techreport curcio b author christine a curcio and kenneth r sloan and david meyers title computer methods for sampling reconstruction display and analysis of retinal whole mounts number tr institution department of computer science university of washington address seattle wa month december year article curcio author christine a curcio and kenneth r sloan and david meyers title computer methods for sampling reconstruction display and analysis of retinal whole mounts journal vision research volume number pages year kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan cis uab edu university of alabama at birmingham a campbell hall uab station fax birmingham al
comp.graphics	outlining of spline surface about a year ago i started work on a problem that appeared to be very simple and turned out to be quite difficult i am wondering if anyone on the net has seen this problem and hopefully some published solutions to it the problem is to draw an outline of a surface defined by two roughly parallel cubic splines for inputs the problem essentially starts with two sets of points where each set of points is on the edge of an object which we treat as two dimensional i e only extant between the edges but which exists in three dimensional space to draw the object we fit a cubic spline through the points each spline is effectively computed as a sequence of line segments approximating the curve each spline has an equal number of segments we assume that the nth segment along each spline is roughly but not exactly the same distance along each spline by any reasonable measure take each segment n along each spline and match it to the nth segment of the opposing spline use the pair of segments to form two triangles which will be filled in to color the surface depth sort the triangles take each triangle in sorted order project onto a d pixmap draw and color the triangle take the edge of the triangle that is along the edge of the surface and draw a line along that edge colored with a special edge color it is the edge coloring in step that is at the heart of the problem the idea is to effectively outline the edge of the surface the net result however generally has lots of breaks and gaps in the edge of the surface the reasons for this are fairly complicated they involve both rasterization problems and problems resulting from the projecting the splines if anything about this problem sounds familiar we would appreciate knowing about other work in this area thanks
comp.graphics	flat globe does anybody have an algorithm for flattening out a globe or any other parametric surface that is definied parametrically that is i would like to take a sheet of paper and a knife and to be able to calculate how i must cut in the paper so i can fold it to a globe or any other object marco seirio in real life sp marse caligula his se
comp.graphics	re images of earth in article apr cs ruu nl clldomps cs ruu nl louis van dompselaar writes in c q hk kod hawnews watson ibm com ricky watson ibm com rick turner writes look in the pub space directory on ames arc nasa gov there are a number of earth images there you may have to hunt around the subdirectories as things tend to be filed under the mission ie apollo rather than under the image subject for those of you who don t need bit i got a colour amiga iff of a cloudless earth scanned looks okay when mapped on a sphere e mail me and i ll send it you beware there is only one such copyrighted image and the company that generated is known to protect that copyright that image took hundreds of man hours to build from the source satellite images so it is unlikely that competing images will appear soon
comp.graphics	newsgroup split concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon
comp.graphics	re surface intersections sp marse lina marco seirio writes i have a problem with intersections between two surfaces does anybody have a easy to understand algorithm for that or maybe even c source marco seirio in real life sp marse caligula his s you also have a severe problem with news headers ftp to cs purdue edu pub vanecek and pull proxima tar z and proxima ps z tres spif lance norskog thinman netcom com data is not information is not knowledge is not wisdom
comp.graphics	page flipping in vga x x mode help how do you write to the second bank page of memory when in vga x x colour mode ie to perform page flipping animation and buffering of the screen i have tried using the map mask registers but this does not perform the required task although it does do something note it must be able to work on a standard vga ie not necessarily a svga card many thanx in advance andrew
comp.graphics	imagine hello again netters i finally received the information about imagine for the pc they are presently shipping version of the software and will release version in the first quarter of or so they say the upgrade from to is to purchase imagine it costs or if you are upgrading from another eligible call them for info modeler it is only plus shipping handling it requires a pc with megs a math coprocessor and dos or up and a microsoft mouse and svga card thanks for all your replies about the product i have received many contrasting replies but once i scrounge the money together i think i will take the plunge thanks again here is the info for impulse if you want to find out more or get the sheet they sent impulse inc xerxes avenue north minneapolis mn thanks again for all your replies scott scott snowiss sasst pitt edu turn on jack in jack out
comp.graphics	re pcx to ad freenet carleton ca jw where is there a book or code that will teach me how jw to read and write pcx dbf and gif files jw how do i access the extra ram on my paradise video board jw so i can do paging in the higher vga modes ie x x jw x x jw anybody got a line on a good book to help answer these question here are some that i have that are very good graphics file formats kay and levine isbn supercharged bitmapped graphics rimmer isbn programmer s guide to the ega and vga cards ferraro isbn has a whole chapter on paradise svga dave deluxe
comp.graphics	vga passthrough cables does anyone know the phone number to a place where i can get a vga passthrough i want to hook up my vga card to my xga card whcih you can can all i need is the cable that connects them it is the same type of cable that you would connect from your vga card to say a video blaster or something thanks brad
comp.graphics	detecting double points in bezier curves i m looking for any information on detecting and or calculating a double point and or cusp in a bezier curve an algorithm literature reference or mail about this is very appreciated ferdinand
comp.graphics	re computer graphics to vcr getting an image from a computer monitor to a videotape is harder than it looks the standard vga and ega outputs are very different than the ntsc format used by televisions while there is equipment that will do the conversion it is hard to get your hands on and costs quite a bit if you have access to an amiga computer that has an ntsc output you can transfer certain types of graphic files by modem and tape them from the ntsc output unfortunately this would be frame by frame and would lead to unbelievably scratchy animation unless you had a good amiga animation program otherwise see if your local public access cable station has equipment that you can use
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article quvdoinn e srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon i agree with you raist new a owner in x in y in colors from a bit palette i love it new low fat sig don t e mail me i don t have a valid address nor can i send e mail
comp.graphics	ellipse again hi everyone because no one has touched the problem i posted last week i guess my question was not so clear now i d like to describe it in detail the offset of an ellipse is the locus of the center of a circle which rolls on the ellipse in other words the distance between the ellipse and its offset is same everywhere this problem comes from the geometric measurement when a probe is used the tip of the probe is a ball and the computer just outputs the positions of the ball s center is the offset of an ellipse still an ellipse the answer is no ironically dmis an american indutrial standard says it is ellipse so almost all the software which was implemented on the base of dmis was wrong the software was also sold internationaly imagine how many people have or will suffer from this bug how many qualified parts with ellipse were will be discarded and most importantly how many defective parts with ellipse are will be used i was employed as a consultant by a company in los angeles last year to specially solve this problem i spent two months on analysis of this problem and six months on programming now my solution nonlinear is not ideal because i can only reconstruct an ellipse from its entire or half offset it is very difficult to find the original ellipse from a quarter or a segment of its offset because the method i used is not analytical i am now wondering if i didn t touch the base and make things complicated please give me a hint i know you may argue this is not a cg problem you are right it is not however so many people involved in the problem sphere from poits why not an ellipse and why not its offset please post here and let the others share our interests i got several emails from our netters they said they need the summary of the answers yeh usc
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article quvdoinn e srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon i agree with you of cause i ll try to be a daemon yeh usc
comp.graphics	wayne rigby sorry to clog up the news group with this message wayne rigby i have the info you requested but for some reason i can not mail it to you please contact me send email address j no real programmer can function without caffeine zen art of internet john s muller muller diego llnl gov muller sisal llnl gov jmuller libserv ic sunysb edu you are not drunk until you have to grab the grass to keep the grass from falling off the earth some stupid comedian
comp.graphics	re cview answers uk nx mik uky edu bryan k williams writes re majority of users not readding from floppy well how about those of us who have picture cd roms and would like to use cview because it is fast and it works well but can t because the moron lacked the foresight to create the temp file in the program s path not the current didrectory actually the most flexible way to create temp files is to check for a temp or tmp environment variable and create the files on the drive and directory pointedto by the variable this is pretty much a standard for dos windows and os applications what i have to say is my own opinion and has no bearing on any other person or organization including my employer rknight salestech com sales technologies inc
comp.graphics	help splitting a trimming region along a mesh hi i have a problem i hope some of the gurus can help me solve background of the problem i have a rectangular mesh in the uv domain i e the mesh is a mapping of a d bezier patch into d the area in this domain which is inside a trimming loop had to be rendered the trimming loop is a set of d bezier curve segments for the sake of notation the mesh is made up of cells my problem is this the trimming area has to be split up into individual smaller cells bounded by the trimming curve segments if a cell is wholly inside the area then it is output as a whole else it is trivially rejected does any body know how thiss can be done or is there any algo somewhere for doing this any help would be appreciated thanks ani to get irritated is human to stay cool divine
comp.graphics	re detecting double points in bezier curves in article ia b w w oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinan oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinand oeinck writes i m looking for any information on detecting and or calculating a double point and or cusp in a bezier curve an algorithm literature reference or mail about this is very appreciated there was a very useful article in one of the issues of transactions on graphics i believe maureen stone was one of the authors sorry not to be more specific i don t have the reference here with me the article actually was more general than this giving a way to decide whether a given cubic bezier curve contains cusps intersection points or whatever wierdness the same treatment is also available in siggraph course notes for the course called math for siggraph or something like that dr memory jbulf kpc com
comp.graphics	re video in out in article apr nwnexus wa com mscrap halcyon com marta lyall writes organization a world of information at your fingertips keywords in article toontown columbiasc ncr com craig toontown columbiasc ncr com craig s williamson writes i m getting ready to buy a multimedia workstation and would like a little advice i need a graphics card that will do video in and out under windows i was originally thinking of a targa but that doesn t work under windows what cards should i be looking into thanks craig to forgive is divine to be craig williamson an airhead is human craig williamson columbiasc ncr com balki bartokomas craig toontown columbiasc ncr com home perfect strangers craig you should still consider the targa i run windows on it all the time at work and it works fine i think all you need is the right driver josh west email mscrap halcyon com at t also puts out two new products for windows model numbers elude me now a bit video board with framegrabber and a bit with same yesterday i was looking at a product at a local software etc store media vision makes a bit color frame capture board that is stand alone and doesnot use the feature connector on your existing video card it claims upto fps live capture as well as single frame from either composite ntsc or s video in and out don lewis djlewis ualr edu
comp.graphics	stand alone editing suite i need some help we are upgrading our animation video editing stand we are looking into the different type of setups for a b roll and a cuts only station we would like this to be controlled by a computer brand doesnt matter but maybe mac or amiga low end to high end system setups would be very helpful if you have a system or use a system that might be of use could you mail me your system requirements what it is used for and all the hardware and software that will be necessary to set the system up if you need more info you can mail me at eylerken u washington edu thanks in advance ken eylerken u washington edu
comp.graphics	re help grasp in article apr w baron edb tih no havardn edb tih no haavard nesse o a writes could anyone tell me if it s possible to save each frame of a gl grasp animation to gif jpg iff or any other picture formats if you have the grasp animation system then yes it s quite easy you simply use glib to extract the image each frame in a gl is actually a complete pcx or clp file then use one of many available utilities to convert it if you don t have the grasp package i m afraid i can t help you sorry by the way before you ask grasp graphics animation system for professionals is a commercial product that sells for just over us from most mail order companies i ve seen and no i don t have it corey webb corey webb for in much wisdom is much grief and cbw s vma smsu edu he that increaseth knowledge increaseth bitnet cbw s smsvma sorrow ecclesiastes the s means i am only but first are you experienced speaking for myself jimi hendrix
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac in article apr kth se d jwa hemul nada kth se jon wtte writes in z b w w cellar org tsa cellar org the silent assassin writes i m building a cad package and need a d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such as hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations i think apda has something called macwireframe which is a full wire frame and supposedly hidden line removal library i think it weighs in at but i ve been wrong on an order of magnitude before i spoke with the author of macwireframe earlier today the cost is but there are no license royalties his name is eric johnson in sacramento ca phone he doesn t have email very nice guy very knowledgeable about graphics seems like he may have a decent package it s an object pascal framework that supposedly has a fairly complete set of geometry creation classes i m going to check it out and see if it s got what i need for my cad package i also found another package d graphic tools by micro system options in seattle the number is also no email the package is strong at ray tracing i m not too sure about its geometry creation tools i also need to look into this package some more i also spoke with the author mark owens another nice guy that seems to know his business the price is no royalties bobc
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac in article qnm finn tr tamsun tamu edu brentb tamsun tamu edu brent writes tsa cellar org the silent assassin writes rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes can you please offer some recommendations it s really not that hard to do there are books out there which explain everything and the basic d functions translation rotation shading and hidden line removal are pretty easy i wrote a program in a few weeks witht he help of a book and would be happy to give you my source i think he wanted to avoid reinventing the wheel yes i want to concentrate on other development issues i ve created graphics libraries before it s too time consuming life s too short also quickdraw has a lot of d functions built in and think pascal can access them and i would expect that think c could as well if you can find out how to use the quickdraw graphics library it would be an excellent choice since it has a lot of stuff and is built into the mac so should be fast just to clarify the d routines that are mentioned in various places on the mac are in a libray not the rom of the mac a few years ago before i knew anything about implementing graphics i came across a demo of the apple grafsys d library and it actually did a lot however it is quite limited in the sense that it s a low level d library your code still has to plot individual points draw each line etc ad nauseum it has nothing on gl for example where you can handle objects thanks for the clarification before posting my original request i had looked into the mac s d capabilities and dismissed them as low grade bobc
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cd i s cpu doesn t help much either i understand it is a supposedly a variation of a running at something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites wow a i d be very interested to get my hands on one of these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which is supposedly the next in the x lineup d don t get too excited signetics not motorola gave the its number the if i understand rightly uses the instruction set and has an on chip serial port and dma it will run at up to mhz i m typing at a computer using a running at that rate so i know that it can do so so i seriously doubt the clock rate that ricardo rchland vnet ibm com claims james jones
comp.graphics	wanted multi page gif hi i am searching for packages that could handle multi page gif files are there any on some ftp servers i ll appreciate one which works on pc either on dos or windows but any package works on unix will be ok thanks in advance
comp.graphics	physics lab loses a number please i need the starting address pointer for the beginning of the color information rgb on vga mode h that s hex gee duh thanks soooo much hugs and kisses in advance john at uci e mail eapu orion oac uci edu
comp.graphics	articles on flocking hi all can someone point me towards some articles on boids or flocking algorithms also articles on particle animation formulas would be nice james kewageshig uucp james kewageshig canrem com n e t w o r k v i i i fidonet james kewageshig deluxe head of co xv hi this is a signature virus co canada remote systems toronto ontario
comp.graphics	xv under ms dos hi recently i found xv for ms dos in a subdirectory of gnu cc gnuish i use frequently xv on a sun spark station and i never had problems but when i start it on my computer with h option it display the help menu and when i start it with a gif file my hard disk turns or seconds and the prompt come back my computer is a little with copro mega rams tseng m running ms dos with himem sys and no emm sys i had the go exe too but no driver who run with it do somenone know the solution to run xv any help would be apprecied thanx in advance pascal perret perret eicn etna ch ecole d ing nieur ets not available at this time le locle suisse enjoy computer
comp.graphics	need polygon splitting algo the idea is to clip one polygon using another polygon not necessarily rectangular as a window my problem then is in finding out all the new vertices of the resulting subpolygons from the first one is this simply a matter of extending the usual algorithm whereby each of the edges of one polygon is checked against another polygon is there a simpler way comments welcome noel
comp.graphics	j c jensen s bitmap code greetings all according to a faq i read on july joshua c jensen posted an article on bitmap manipulation specifically scaling and perspective to the newsgroup rec games programmer article the article included source code in turbo pascal with inline assembly language i have been unable to find an archive for this newsgroup or a current email address for joshua c jensen if anyone has the above details or a copy of the code could they please let me know many thanks yours gratefully etc myles myles strous email myles strous lib monash edu au raytracing fan phone got the same urgent grasp of reality as a cardboard cut out proud to have him on the team archchancellor mustrum ridcully in reaper man by terry pratchett
comp.graphics	re hdf readers viewers i wrote g day all can anybody point me at a utility which will read convert crop whatnot display hdf image files i ve had a look at the hdf stuff under ncsa and it must take an award for odd directory structure strange storage approaches and minimalist documentation and it has since turned out that all the mirror sites i looked at were fooled by a restructuring at the original site zaphod ncsa uiuc edu and hence were in a mess that and a pointer to imconv should get me started ta muchly cheers markus markus buchhorn parallel computing research facility email markus octavia anu edu au australian national university canberra australia international australia phone fax
comp.graphics	m motion video card yuv to rgb i am trying to convert an m motion ibm video file format yuv to rgb data the y portion is a byte from the v is a byte the color is u and v and the intensity is y does anyone have any ideas for algorhtyms or programs can someone tell me where to get info on the u and v of a television signal if you need more info reply at the e mail address basically what i am doing is converting a digital ntsc format to rgb vga for displaying captured video pictures thanks the u is a byte
comp.graphics	tseng et pixel clock i would like to program tseng et to nonstandard x mode by switching to standard x mode using bios and than changing some timing details x d registers x x f but i don t know how to select mhz pixel clock i need the bios function selects mhz is there anybody who knows where to obtain technical info about this i am also interested in any other technical information about tseng et and trident and chipsets thanks very much pavel zemcik dept of comp sci eng technical university of brno bozetechova cs brno czech republic e mail zemcik dcse fee vutbr cs
comp.graphics	sun ipx root window display background picture hello netters i have a fairly weak question to ask everybody in netland i ve looked though the last faq for comp graphics but i didn t find my answer thus the post i ll keep it short question how do i display any raster files gif files iff or tiff images that i have on my root window or background i have a sun ipc openwindows sun os if that helps any i ve compiled pov for the sun and would like to display some of the work i have done as a background tile thanks for any help or information that you provide have a good day scott fleming osi p s kudo s to the people who provided pov its great
comp.graphics	hdf readers viewers g day all can anybody point me at a utility which will read convert crop whatnot display hdf image files i ve had a look at the hdf stuff under ncsa and it must take an award for odd directory structure strange storage approaches and minimalist documentation part of the problem is that i want to look at large mb hdf files and crop out a section ideally i would like a hdftoppm type of utility from which i can then use the pbmplus stuff quite merrily i can convert the cropped part into another format for viewing animation otherwise can someone please explain how to set up the ncsa visualisation s w for hdf r or beta and do the above cropping etc this is for suns with sunos any help greatly appreciated ta muchly cheers markus markus buchhorn parallel computing research facility email markus octavia anu edu au australian national university canberra australia international australia phone fax markus buchhorn parallel computing research facility email markus octavia anu edu au australian national university canberra australia international australia phone fax
comp.graphics	re grayscale printer jian lu jian coos dartmouth edu wrote we are interested in purchasing a grayscale printer that offers a good resoltuion for grayscale medical images can anybody give me some recommendations on these products in the market in particular those under thank for the advice peter hauke brunel university se psh brunel ac uk
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of ulrich galki toppoint de wrote according to the tiff specification the tiff version number bytes has been chosen for its deep philosophical significance when i first read this i rotfl finally some philosphy in a technical spec but still i wondered what makes so significant last week i read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy and rotfl the second time after millions of years of calculation the second best computer of all time reveals that is the answer to the question about life the universe and everything is this actually how they picked the number yes does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from i don t know where douglas adams took it from but i m pretty sure he s the one who launched it in the guide since then it s been showing up all over the place l one thing is for sure the sheep is not a creature of the earth joachim kih no the back masking on haaden ii from exposure by robert fripp
comp.graphics	re need a viewer for gl files in article qu i kh dux dundee ac uk dwestner cardhu mcs dundee ac uk dominik westner writes the subject says it all is there a pd viewer for gl files for x try xviewgl filename xviewgl v tar z on lots of bases ove what do you think x yep me too this is real life ove petter tro ford fairlane kongsberg college of engineering norway email ovep kih no
comp.graphics	bit mode on speedstar x i have a diamond speedstar x board that i want to program for bit x graphics or possibly x bit color does anybody have any libraries supporting these modes on this board even somes simple routines to set the graphics mode and plot individual pixels would be a great help i plan to use the routines with djgp thanks in advance please respond also via e mail david max max slinky cs nyu edu
comp.graphics	re flat globe sp marse kristin marco seirio writes does anybody have an algorithm for flattening out a globe or any other parametric surface that is definied parametrically that is i would like to take a sheet of paper and a knife and to be able to calculate how i must cut in the paper so i can fold it to a globe or any other object there is a library of map projections in charon er usgs gov in pub proj tar z
comp.graphics	re m motion video card yuv to rgb i ll contact you offline about this rick
comp.graphics	re xv under ms dos no e mail address eicn etna ch writes hi recently i found xv for ms dos in a subdirectory of gnu cc gnuish i please tell me where you where you ftp d this from i would like to have a copy of it i would have mailed you but your post indicates you have no mail address wayne michael wdm world std com
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr microware com jejones microware com james jones writes in article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cd i s cpu doesn t help much either i understand it is a supposedly a variation of a running at something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites wow a i d be very interested to get my hands on one of these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which is supposedly the next in the x lineup d don t get too excited signetics not motorola gave the its number the if i understand rightly uses the instruction set and has an on chip serial port and dma it will run at up to mhz i m typing at a computer using a running at that rate so i know that it can do so so i seriously doubt the clock rate that ricardo rchland vnet ibm com claims james jones just because the can run upto mhz doesn t mean the cd i is running at that speed i said i understand it is a running at something like mhz i am not sure but i think i read this a long time ago anyway still with mhz you need sprites for a lot of tricks for making cool awesome games read psygnosis raist new a owner in x in y in colors from a bit palette i love it new low fat sig don t e mail me i don t have a valid address nor can i send e mail
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article quvdoinn e srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes ch concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in ch favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of ch graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to ch algorithms i just think making different groups out of this ch is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group ch i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for ch discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way ch just curious i must agree there is a dizzying number of c s amiga newsgroups already in addition there are very few issues which fall cleanly into one of these categories also it is readily observable that the current spectrum of amiga groups is already plagued with mega crossposting thus the group split would not in all likelihood bring about a more structured environment michael nerone i shall do so with my customary lack of tact and internet address since you have asked for this you will be obliged nerone ccwf cc utexas edu to pardon it sagredo fictional char of galileo
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of in article apr samba oit unc edu cptully med unc edu christopher p tully pathology writes why so up tight for that matter tiff is out now so why not gripe about its problems also if its so important to you volunteer to help define or critique the spec i ve got the spec obviously since i quoted it in my last posting my gripe about tiff is that it s far too complicated and nearly infinitely easier to write than to read which i think hurts your acceptance by anything that will need to read those images e g paint programs in a nutshell i don t think tiff is salvageable unless the fat is trimmed significantly and then it wouldn t be tiff anymore they keep trying to cut it back but it s late now maybe they will fix it and change that magic number to signify the lack of compatibility that would probably make me happy ab
comp.graphics	re fonts in pov hi the rtrace ray tracer supports d text as a primitive not collections of spheres cylinders and so on the d chars are made of lines and splines that are extruded please have a look at asterix inescn pt in directory pub rtrace in pub rtrace tmp there are some demo images with high quality text all of them are called text jpg jpeg encoded see them first and then tell me what you think regards antonio o o i n e s c o antonio costa e mail acc asterix inescn pt o acosta porto inescn pt o comp graphics cad decnet porto a costa largo mompilher uucp mcvax o o porto portugal bell o o o let the good times roll
comp.graphics	rtrace there is a new version of the rtrace ray tracing package at asterix inescn pt in directory pub rtrace check the readme file rtrace now can use the suit toolkit to have a nice user interface compile it with dsuit or modify the makefile suit is available at suit uvacs cs virginia edu i have binaries of rtrace with suit for sun sparc sgi indigo and dos go please contact me if interested the mac rtrace port is in directory pub rtrace macintosh thanks to reid judd reid judd east sun com and greg ferrar gregt function mps ohio state edu small changes were done since version mainly now it is possible to discard backface polygons and triangles for fast preview the support program scn sff has been reworked to use temp files here goes a short description of current converters from cad molecular chemistry packages to the scn format the package programs are related as below those marked with have been modified irit scn irit nff nffclean nffp pp sol scn acad nff sff mol scn v scn sff v rtrace alchemy scn sff pic or ppm cpp pdb scn picmix pdb picblend ppmmix chem scn ppmblend chemical ds scn d studio iv scn iris inventor the dos port of rtrace is in pub rtrace pc rtrac arj utils arj and image arj see the readme file there requires djgpp go dos extender version included which can be found in directory pub pc djgpp and in many sites around netland there are also demo scenes manuals and all the source code please feel free to get it and use it hope you like it regards antonio costa o o i n e s c o antonio costa e mail acc asterix inescn pt o o comp graphics cad decnet porto acosta largo mompilher uucp mcvax o o porto portugal bell o o o let the good times roll
comp.graphics	re images of earth in apr unocal com stgprao st unocal com richard ottolini writes beware there is only one such copyrighted image and the company that generated is known to protect that copyright that image took hundreds of man hours to build from the source satellite images so it is unlikely that competing images will appear soon so they should sue the newspaper i got it from for printing it the article didn t say anything about copyrights louis i m hanging on your words living on your breath feeling with your skin will i always be here in your room dm
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article nerone apr sylvester cc utexas edu nerone ccwf cc utexas edu michael nerone writes in article quvdoinn e srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes ch concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in ch favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of ch graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to ch algorithms i just think making different groups out of this ch is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group ch i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for ch discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way ch just curious i must agree there is a dizzying number of c s amiga newsgroups already in addition there are very few issues which fall cleanly into one of these categories also it is readily observable that the current spectrum of amiga groups is already plagued with mega crossposting thus the group split would not in all likelihood bring about a more structured environment michael nerone i shall do so with my customary lack of tact and internet address since you have asked for this you will be obliged nerone ccwf cc utexas edu to pardon it sagredo fictional char of galileo hi it might be nice to know what s possible on different hard ware platforms but usually the hard ware is fixed in my case either unix or dos pc so i m not much interested in amiga news in the case of software i won t get any comercial software mentioned in this newgroup to run on a unix platform so i m not interested in this information i would suggest to split the group i don t see the problem of cross posting then you need to read just newgroups with half the size but what would be more important is to have a faq this would reduce the traffic a lot sincerely gerhard i m writing this as a privat person not reflecting any opinions of the inst of hydromechanics the university of karlsruhe the land baden wuerttemberg the federal republic of germany and the european community the address and phone number below are just to get in touch with me everything i m saying writing and typing is always wrong statement necessary to avoid law suits dipl ing gerhard bosch m sc voice institute for hydromechanic fax university of karlsruhe kaiserstrasse karlsruhe germany internet bosch ifh hp bau verm uni karlsruhe de bitnet nd dkauni bitnet
comp.graphics	wanted info on image databases guess the subject says it all i would like references to any introductory material on image databases please send any pointers to mini point cs uwm edu thanx in advance mini mini point cs uwm edu mini csd csd uwm edu
comp.graphics	lyon lamb minivas control of abekas a we have a minivas and we want to record to an abekas a we have most of the functions working but when we go to set up a record the minivas hangs we are sending the abekas smpte time code does anyone have code we can compare to what we have done and is there and ftp site for minivas and abekas code gordon phillips glp cray com gordon phillips glp cray com
comp.graphics	re stay away from mag innovision in bb b d sar vm cc uakron edu d sar vm cc uakron edu steve rimar writes my mag mx f works fine mine was beautiful for a year and a half then it went foomp i bought a viewsonic fs instead another great monitor imho kevin martin sigma rahul net i gotta get me another hat
comp.graphics	re detecting double points in bezier curves in ia b w w oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinand oeinck writes i m looking for any information on detecting and or calculating a double point and or cusp in a bezier curve see maureen stone and tony derose a geometric characterization of parametric cubic curves acm tog vol no july pp ron capelli ibm corp dept c ms p capelli vnet ibm com po box poughkeepsie ny there are no answers only cross references
comp.graphics	re help grasp cbw s vma smsu edu ext corey webb writes in article apr w baron edb tih no havardn edb tih no haavard nesse o a writes could anyone tell me if it s possible to save each frame of a gl grasp animation to gif jpg iff or any other picture formats if you have the grasp animation system then yes it s quite easy you simply use glib to extract the image each frame in a gl is actually a complete pcx or clp file then use one of many available utilities to convert it if you don t have the grasp package i m afraid i can t help you sorry by the way before you ask grasp graphics animation system for professionals is a commercial product that sells for just over us from most mail order companies i ve seen and no i don t have it corey webb there are several public domain utilities available at your usual archive site that allow extraction of single frames from a gl file check in the graphics directories under grasp the problem is that the clp files you generate cannot be decoded by any of the many pd format converters i have used any hint welcome let me know if you have problems locating the utilities hope it helps jacques oberto oberto genes icgeb trieste it
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of in r ms k ratatosk uninett no joachim kih no joachim lous writes does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from i don t know where douglas adams took it from but i m pretty sure he s the one who launched it in the guide since then it s been showing up all over the place douglas adams once said paraphrased from memory i just picked it it seemed like the sort of number you wouldn t be afraid to take home to meet your parents nice and even perfectly normal kevin martin sigma rahul net i gotta get me another hat
comp.graphics	re xv under ms dos in apr eicn etna ch no e mail address eicn etna ch writes do somenone know the solution to run xv any help would be apprecied i would guess that it requires x almost certainly dv x which commonly uses the go djgpp setup for its programs if you don t have dv x running you can t get anything which requires interfacing with x kevin martin sigma rahul net i gotta get me another hat
comp.graphics	postscript driver for gino does anybody know where i can get via anonymous ftp or otherwise a postscript driver for the graphics libraries gino verison a we are runnining on a vax vms and are looking for a way outputing our plots to a postscript file thanks in advance koon tang internet ktt unix bton ac uk department of mathematical sciences uucp uknet itri ktt university of brighton brighton bn gj u k
comp.graphics	info on medical imaging systems hi is anyone into medical imaging i have a good ray tracing background and i m interested in that field could you point me to some sources or better yet if you have any experience do you want to talk about what s going on or what you re working on thanks jason freund
comp.graphics	paradise vga i have a paradise svga with mb the c chip d the docs say that i can display the following modes x x k colours and x x k cols if i have the ramdac hicolor chip i have checked the board and i do have such a chip now the problem is that i can t get this mode to work graphics workshop claims that it can display bit images dithered down to bit colour with my board but it doesn t work i have tried writing some assembler code to get the modes working and i have found out that each pixel is addressed by a word bit but only the lower bits are considered this happens in x mode the x mode refuses to work i e remains in text mode could someone please help me tristan
comp.graphics	anti aliasing utility wanted i am currently using povray on mac and was wondering if anyone in netland knows of public domain anti aliasing utilities so that i can skip this step in pov very slow on this machine any suggestions opinions about post trace anti aliasing would be greatly appreciated helmut dotzlaw dept of biochemistry and molecular biology university of manitoba winnipeg canada dotzlaw ccu umanitoba ca
comp.graphics	another cview question was cview answers has anybody gotten cview to work in k or k color mode on a trident c hi color card at best the colors come out screwed up and at worst the program hangs i loaded the vesa driver and the same thing happens on different machines if it doesn t work on the trident does anybody know of a viewer that does thanx lisa
comp.graphics	re sun ipx root window display background picture i m not sure if you got the information you were looking for so i ll post it anyway for the general public to load an image on your root window add this line to the end of your xsession file xloadimage onroot fullscreen gif file name this is assuming of course you have the xloadimage client and as for the switches i think they pretty much explain what is going on if you leave out the the terminal locks till you kill it you already knew that though hope this helps daemon
comp.graphics	re wanted multi page gif in article apr worak kaist ac kr stjohn math kaist ac kr ryou seong joon writes hi i am searching for packages that could handle multi page gif files if you are looking for viewer try vpic lasse mits mdata fi
comp.graphics	ray tracer for ms dos sorry for the repeat of this request but does anyone know of a good free shareware program with which i can create ray traces and save them as bit mapped files of course if there is such a thing thanks in advance daemon
comp.graphics	re images of earth so they should sue the newspaper i got it from for printing it the article didn t say anything about copyrights i m sure the whole newspaper is copyrighted they could have gotten permission to use the image under their own copyright mark
comp.graphics	re images of earth in article apr cs ruu nl clldomps cs ruu nl louis van dompselaar writes in apr unocal com stgprao st unocal com richard ottolini writes beware there is only one such copyrighted image and the company that generated is known to protect that copyright that image took hundreds of man hours to build from the source satellite images so it is unlikely that competing images will appear soon so they should sue the newspaper i got it from for printing it the article didn t say anything about copyrights no explicit c is necessary if it the image is attributed to the geosphere company then there is a likelihood permission is has been given to reprint unlikely that the owner can or will go after individuals however interesting images do make their way into ads and computer demos that is when a pirate might get some flak this image is considered so interesting that many people would like to use it whenever some global map is needed so there is lots of temptation one mail person said since the source data satellite imagery is not copyrighted then the derived image can t be not true a new distinctive creative expression of the data can be protected this image is certainly fits such since no one else has taken the tremendous effort to re create it themselves precedent is a recent telephone book court case ma bell tried to copyright the data in their books and prevent competitors from copying it there are trick entries in the book but the court only permitted copyright of the expression of the data and not the data themselves you cant xerox and sell the telephone book there will be more attention to digital copyrights in the future and computer becomes a mass product and moguls such as bill gates are currently hoarding the digital copyrights i d prefer that geosphere put this data in the public domain because it is very interesting to me and others but that s the way things are
comp.graphics	re images of earth i downloaded an image of the earth re constructed from elevation data taken at degree increments the author not me wrote some c code included that read in the data file and generated b w and pseudo color images they work very well and are not incumbered by copyright they are at an aminet site near you called earth lha in the amiga pix misc area i refer you to the included docs for the details on how the author sorry i forget his name created these images the raw data is not included david david m ingebretsen evans sutherland computer corp dingebre thunder sim es com disclaimer the content of this message in no way reflects the opinions of my employer nor are my actions encouraged supported or acknowledged by my employer
comp.graphics	re need polygon splitting algo in article qvq b r t wampyr cc uow edu au g wampyr cc uow edu au coronado emmanuel abad writes the idea is to clip one polygon using another polygon not necessarily rectangular as a window my problem then is in finding out all the new vertices of the resulting subpolygons from the first one is this simply a matter of extending the usual algorithm whereby each of the edges of one polygon is checked against another polygon is there a simpler way comments welcome noel it depends on what kind of the polygons convex simple concave trouble concave with loop s inside big trouble of cause you can use the box test to avoid checking each edges according to my experience there is not a simple way to go the headache stuff is to deal with the special cases for example the overlapped lines yeh usc
comp.graphics	re images of earth in article apr cs ruu nl clldomps cs ruu nl louis van dompselaar writes so they should sue the newspaper i got it from for printing it the article didn t say anything about copyrights the newspaper itself is almost certainly copyrighted in its entirety newspapers generally employ legal staffs which make sure they get permission to use a copyrighted image or text did you do the same john john j humpal johnh jhunix hcf jhu edu short sig std disclaimer
comp.graphics	re comp graphics programmer in article qukk innd l no names nerdc ufl edu lioness maple circa ufl edu writes however that is almost overkill something more like this would probably make everyone a lot happier comp graphics programmer comp graphics hardware comp graphics apps comp graphics misc that s closer but i dislike apps software vs hardware would be better would that engulf alt graphics pixutils or would that be programmer i don t know if traffic is really heavy enough to warrant a newsgroup split look how busy comp graphics research is not it s true that a lot of the traffic here is rehashing faqs and discussing things that would probably be better diverted to system specific groups but i don t know whether a split would help or hurt that cause maybe we need a comp graphics rtfb for all those people who can t be bothered to read the fine books out there right dr rogers ab
comp.graphics	re stand alone editing suite in article qvkaeinngat shelley u washington edu eylerken stein u washington edu ken eyler writes i need some help we are upgrading our animation video editing stand we are looking into the different type of setups for a b roll and a cuts only station we would like this to be controlled by a computer brand doesnt matter but maybe mac or amiga low end to high end system setups would be very helpful if you have a system or use a system that might be of use could you mail me your system requirements what it is used for and all the hardware and software that will be necessary to set the system up if you need more info you can mail me at eylerken u washington edu thanks in advance ken eylerken u washington edu here at lewis and clark college we have recently installed a digital film system based on the mac quadra that does non linear full digital editing if you re considering such a system here are the pros and cons for the educational environment this system is excellent we use it to produce a variety of educational materials for disemination on our local network because this programming is going to be viewed on other macs the image quality is not as important as the ability to directly export the video to the net we also use it to produce orientiation and promotional video programs for use by the lewis clark community since these programs are not meant for commercial or broadcast use image quality is not critical the digital film system for those of you who are uninitiated is an a b roll digitizing system on one jpeg compression card it was promoted as an inexpensive online editing system with svhs quality supermac the maker of the card is trying to achieve this quality level but as yet has been unable to deliver our system produces near vhs quality at fields per second x overscan the card repeats every other field to get fields per second this results in a kind of super film look that some find distracting if you can get past this problem you ll find the adobe premier editing software quite enjoyable with which to work it produces thousands of different effects from crystalize filters to dve transitions to color matting because of its non linear nature editing is fast and easy if you ve ever used or seen used an avid or montage system you ll recognize the methodology and the user interface the total system with quadra megs of ram gig drive apple mon itor panasonic svhs edit deck audio gear cassette cd eq mixer etc composite monitor digital film card will set you back about for you video cowboys and girls this system will not output at a quality that will satisfy most of your clients even though you can perform more effects than a toasterhead can imagine an amiga based off line based system will look better we use both macs and amigas for our video work each for what each does best dan snodgrass media services lewis clark college portland
comp.graphics	xv problems please note the newsgroups recent discussion about xv s problems were held in some newsgroup here is some text users of xv might find interesting i have added more to text to this collection article so read on even you so my articles a while ago i hope author of xv corrects those problems as best he can so fine program xv is that it is worth of improving i have also minor ideas for bit xv e mail me for them any misundertanding of mine is understandable juhana kouhia clip deleted note that xv saves only bit rasterized images that means that the saved jpegs are just like jpeg to gif to jpeg quality also there s three kind of bit quantizers your final image quality depends on them too this were the situation when i read jpeg faq a while ago imho it is design error of xv there should not be such confusing errors in programs there s two errors xv allows the saving of bit rasterized image as jpeg even the original is bit saving bit rasterized image instead of original bit should be a special case xv allows saving the bit rasterized image made with any quantizer the main case should be that xv quantizes the image with the best quantizer available before saving the image to a file lousier quantizers should be just for viewing purposes and a special cases in saving the image if at all clip clip deleted it is limit of xv but not limit of design it is error in design it is error that bit quantized rasterized images are stored as jpegs jpeg is not designed to that as matter of fact i m sure when xv were designed bit displays were known it is not bad error to program a program for bit images only at that time but when bit image formats are included to program the whole design should be changed to support bit images that were not done and now we have the program violate jpeg design and any bit image format the program has human interface errors otherway is to drop saving images as jpegs or any bit format without clearly saying that it is special case and not expected in normal use deleted clip some new items follows clip i have seen that xv quantizes the image sometimes poorly with best option than with default option we have the reason surely is the quantizer used as best it is surprise the same than used in ppmquant if you remember i have tested some quantizers in that test i found that rlequant with default is best then comes djpeg fbmquant xv our default in that order in my test ppmquant suggeeded very poorly it actually gave image with bad artifacts i don t know is ppmquant improved any but i expect no so use of xv s best option is not very good idea i suggest that author of xv changes the quantizer to the one used in rlequant i m sure rle people gives permission another could be one used in imagemagick i have not tested it so i can say nothing about it clip clip some minor bugs in human interface are key pressings and cursor clicks goes to a buffer often it happens that i make click errors or press keyboard when cursor is in the wrong place it is very annoying when you have waited image to come about five minutes and then it is gone away immediately the buffer should be cleaned when the image is complete also good idea is to wait few seconds before activating keyboard and mouse for xv after the image is completed often it happens that image pops to the screen quickly just when i m writing something with editor or such those key pressings then go to xv and image has gone or something weird in the color editor when i turn a color meter and release it xv updates the images it is impossible to change all rgb values first and then get the updated image it is annoying wait image to be updated when the setting are not ready yet i suggest of adding an apply button to update the exchanges done clip
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article quvdoinn e srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes from tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw subject newsgroup split date apr gmt concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon actuallay i don t but on the other hand i don t support the idea of having one newsgroup for every aspect of graphics programming as proposed by brian in his reply to my original posting i would suggest a looser structure more like a comp graphics programmer comp graphics hw and sw the reason for making as few groups as possible is for the same reason you say we shouldn t spilt up not to get to few postings every day i takes to much time to browse through all postings just to find two or three i m interested in i understand and agree when you say you want all aspects of graphics in one meeting i agree to some extension i see news as a forum to exchange ideas help others or to be helped i think this is difficult to achive if there are so many different things in one meeting good evening netters arff also for the not religous confessor there is a mystery of higher values who s birth mankind to the last builds upon they are indisputible and often disregarded seldom you hear them beeing prized as seldom as you hear a seeing man prizeing what he sees per lagerkvist the fist free translation from swedish andreas arff andreasa dhhalden no
comp.graphics	beta testers wanted for graphics libraries visual numerics inc formerly imsl and precision visuals is in the process of securing sites for beta testing x exponent graphics and c exponent graphics both x exponent graphics and c exponent graphics are gl products the beta period is from april through june the platform is hp running under os with ansi c compiler the media will be sent on mm dat cartridge tape here are some of the key facts about the two products x exponent graphics key facts complete collection of high level d and d application plot types available through a large collection of x resources cstom widget for osf motif developers built in interactive gui for plot customization easily implemented callbacks for customized application feedback xeg being built on the xt toolkit provides the user a widget library that conforms to the expected syntax and standards familar to x programmers xeg will also be sold as a bundle with visual edge s uim x product this will enable user to use a gui builder to create the graphical layout of an application c exponent graphics key facts written in c for c application programmers developers the library is written in c and the programming interface conforms to c standards taking advantage fo the most desirable features of c build in gui for interactive plot customization through mouse interaction the user has complete interactive graph output control with over graphics attributes for plot customization large collection of high level application functions for two call graph creation a wide variety of d and d plot types are available with minimal programming effort user ability to interrupt and control the x event by controlling the x event loop when the user use the mouse to manipulate the plot the user can allow ceg to control the event loop or the user can control the event loop if anyone is interested in beta testing either of the products please contact wendy hou at visual numerics via email at hou imsl com or call jaclyn brandt jbrandt neosoft com
comp.graphics	radiosity i am looking for source code for the radiosity method i don t know what kind of machine you want it for but the program radiance comes with c source code i don t have ftp access so i couldn t tell you where to get it via that way canada remote systems toronto ontario
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article nerone apr sylvester cc utexas edu nerone ccwf cc utexas edu michael nerone writes from nerone ccwf cc utexas edu michael nerone subject re newsgroup split date apr in article quvdoinn e srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes ch concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in ch favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of ch graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to ch algorithms i just think making different groups out of this ch is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group ch i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for ch discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way ch just curious i must agree there is a dizzying number of c s amiga newsgroups already in addition there are very few issues which fall cleanly into one of these categories also it is readily observable that the current spectrum of amiga groups is already plagued with mega crossposting thus the group split would not in all likelihood bring about a more structured environment michael nerone i shall do so with my customary lack of tact and internet address since you have asked for this you will be obliged nerone ccwf cc utexas edu to pardon it sagredo fictional char of galileo maybe i should point out that we are not talking about c s amiga only comp graphics arff also for the not religous confessor there is a mystery of higher values who s birth mankind to the last builds upon they are indisputible and often disregarded seldom you hear them beeing prized as seldom as you hear a seeing man prizeing what he sees per lagerkvist the fist free translation from swedish andreas arff andreasa dhhalden no
comp.graphics	coreldraw bitmap to scodal does anyone know of software that will allow you to convert coreldraw cdr files containing bitmaps to scodal as this is the only format our bureau s filmrecorder recognises jeff lyall inst geo nuc sci ltd lower hutt new zealand
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed in article c nf t gsq news cso uiuc edu osprey ux cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes in article apr sophia smith edu orourke sophia smith edu joseph o rourke writes a fast polygon routine to do what to draw polygons of course its a vga mode h x game done in c and asm i need a faster way to draw concave polygons that the method i have right now which is very slow what kind of polygons shaded texturemapped hm more comes into play with fast routines than just polygons it would be nice to know exaclty what system vga is a start but what processor and a few of the specifics of the implementation you need to give more info if you want to get any answers p ian romanick dancing fool of epsilon were the contained thoughts opinions epn ntsc quality best psu would probably not agree with them look i don t know anything about douche but i do know anti freeze when i see it the dead milkmen
comp.graphics	more on radiosity in article apr aragorn unibe ch you write let s be serious i m working on a radiosity package written in c i would like to make it public domain i ll announce it in c g the minute i finished it that were the good news the bad news it ll take another months at least to finish it are you using the traditional radiosity method progressive refinement or something else in your package if you need to project patches on the hemi cube surfaces what technique are you using do you have hardware to facilitate the projection in the meantime you may have a look at the file radiosity code tar z located at compute cc ncsu edu what are the guest username and password for this ftp site there are some other locations have a look at archie to get the nearest hope that ll help yours stephan thanks stephan josephine
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of joachim kih no joachim lous writes ulrich galki toppoint de wrote according to the tiff specification the tiff version number bytes has been chosen for its deep philosophical significance last week i read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy and rotfl the second time after millions of years of calculation the second best computer of all time reveals that is the answer to the question about life the universe and everything is this actually how they picked the number yes does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from at this moment the king who had been for some time busily writing in his note book called out silence and read out from his book rule forty two all persons more than a mile high to leave the court everybody looked at alice i m not a mile high said alice you are said the king nearly two miles high added the queen well i sha n t go at any rate said alice besides that s not a regular rule you invented it just now it s the oldest rule in the book said the king then it ought to be number one said alice marc kaufman kaufman cs stanford edu
comp.graphics	re another cview question wa in reply to apr rigel tamu edu lmp rigel tamu edu preston lisa m i have a trident card and fullview works real gif jpg try it dave
comp.graphics	univesa driver i got the univesa driver available over the net i thought that finally my meg oak board would be able to show x colors unfortunately a program still says that i can t do this is it the fault of the program fractint or is there something wrong with my card univesa a free driver available over the net that makes many boards vesa compatible
comp.graphics	windows imagine i sent off for my copy today snail mail hope to get it back in about ten days impulse said a week i hope it s as good as they claim jim nobles hope i have what it takes to use it
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed in article pdxgate uucp idr rigel cs pdx edu ian d romanick writes what kind of polygons shaded texturemapped hm more comes into play with fast routines than just polygons it would be nice to know exaclty what system vga is a start but what processor and a few of the specifics of the implementation you need to give more info if you want to get any answers p i don t want texture mapped cause if i did i d asked for them just a simple and fast routine to do filled polygons as for the processor it d be for a minimum of a maybe if i can t find a good one for s ideally i want a polyn function that can clip to a user defined viewport and write to an arbitrary location in memory of course the chances of finding something like that are pretty remote so i guess i d need the source with it oh and i guess it would need to be in asm otherwise it d be too slow i ve seen some polygon routines in c and they ve all been waaay too slow its for a d vector graphics program i ve been hunting high and low for a polyn function in asm and i can t find one anywhere that i can use i ve found one or two polyn functions but my asm is pretty bad so i won t even try to rewrite them lucas
comp.graphics	ribbon information does anyone out there have or know of any kind of utility program for ribbons ribbons are a popular representation for d shape i am trying to find symmetry axis in a given any d shape using ribbons any suggestions will be greatly appreciated how to start program thanks very much in advance hoi yoo engr ucf edu
comp.graphics	need rgb data from saved images could someone please help me find a program or figure out how to extract a li st of r g b values for each pixel in an image i can convert between tga and s everal other popular formats but i need the r g b values for use in a program i am writing thanks for the help
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed osprey ux cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes in article apr sophia smith edu orourke sophia smith edu joseph o rourke writes in article c n x b l news cso uiuc edu osprey ux cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes but i m looking for a fast polygon routine to be used in a d game a fast polygon routine to do what to draw polygons of course its a vga mode h x game hi i ve come across a fast triangle fill draw routine for mode h by calling this routine enough times you have a fast polygon drawing routine i think i ftp ed from wuarchive wustl edu pub msdos uploads programming i have a copy of it so i reupload it there the triangle txt file has this to say c and inline assembly source for a vga mode h triangle drawer stephen quan quan sol surv utas edu au tel local research fellow computer scientist fax local centre for spatial information systems tel university of tasmania australia fax
comp.graphics	fast wireframe graphics i am working on a program to display d wireframe models with the user being able to arbitrarily change any of the viewing parameters also the wireframe objects are also going to have dynamic attributes so that they can move around while the user is exploring the wireframe world to do this i am thinking of using the srgp package described in the van dam foley and feiner book but i was wondering if there was another pd graphics package out there which was faster i would like to make the program as fast as possible so that it provides satisfactory real time performance on a sun ipx ideally i m looking for a pd graphics package which will allow me to open a new window under x and allow me to draw lines within the window also it would also need to have some sort of event driven interaction handling since the user is going to move around the wireframe models using the keyboard if you know or wrote such a package i would be grateful if you could direct me to a ftp site which contains the package thank you yong su kim class of internet yk cunixb cc columbia edu columbia college columbia university or ykim cs columbia edu
comp.graphics	re sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement in qjrec qem network ucsd edu spl ivem ucsd edu steve lamont writes what i am annoyed about is the fact that we were led to believe that we would be able to upgrade to a multiprocessor version of the crimson without the assistance of a fork lift truck it should have been made fairly clear that the most crimson would ever get was a old style mhz cpu upgrade certainly this was mentioned on comp sys sgi on more than one occasion as being likely if our sales folks were saying otherwise they were either confused or less than honest ethical or somebody further up the chain inside sgi was misleading them i m also annoyed about being sold several personal irises at a previous site on the understanding that architecture would be around for a while rather than being flushed there were versions although admittedly the came out at the same time as the over a period of years the chassis simply couldn t be pushed any further i d say years was a pretty good lifespan myself for a system design in this day and age getting the to work caused a lot of gray hairs in both the hardware and product design groups we would have been out of our minds to push it further and i know that was made clear almost from the day the started shipping we had one last kicker in the form of the elan graphics which made graphics versions over its lifespan which i also think is pretty good now i understand that sgi is responsible to its investors and has to keep showing a positive quarterly bottom line odd that i found myself pressured on at least two occasions to get the business on the books just before the end of the quarter but i m just a little tired of getting boned in the process please by all means send a complaint letter through sgi support or sales on your concerns there should be no reason for sales folks to misrepresent future upgrades to customers sure sometimes there will be confusion for a while over whether an upgrade will be available but that shouldn t last too long and doesn t seem to be what you are referring to yes the sales folks do get bonus s at the end of some all quarters but that is pretty common industry wide and sometimes that can result in good deals for customers sometimes it probably pushes folks into systems that aren t what they need i m sure but nobody is forcing you to buy at end of quarter after all maybe it s because my lab buys sgis in onesies and twosies so we aren t entitled to a peek under the covers as the big kids nasa for instance are this lab and i suspect that a lot of other labs they don t get all that long a lead time either although certainly they get presentations on possible new products and their opinions may well influence the end product but that also is life in the industry we can t design systems that meet just their needs or we won t sell too many systems after all which is not to say that we don t have some niche products like reality engine and organizations doesn t have a load of money to spend on computers every year so we can t be out buying new systems on a regular basis the boxes that we buy now will have to last us pretty much through the entire grant period of five years and in some case beyond that means that i need to buy the best piece of equipment that i can when i have the money not some product that was built to paraphrase one previous poster s words to fill a niche to compete with some other vendor i m going to be looking at this box for the next five years and every time i look at it i m going to think about sgi and how i could have better spent my money actually your money since we re supported almost entirely by federal tax dollars but surely you don t expect a system you buy now for a five year period to be constantly upgradable over that entire five year period that s a rather unreasonable expectation in my experience with workstations microcomputers supported and parts available yes but certainly not upgradable to the latest and greatest now you ll have to pardon me while i go off and hiss and fume in a corner somewhere and think dark libelous thoughts i missed your first posting but as i say by all means share your frustation with somebody at a level inside sgi where it might have an effect not immediate i m sure but complaints aren t going to be ignored and may affect future plans if we hear similar things from more than one person site all of the above is as usual my personal opinion not sgi s let no one tell me that silence gives consent dave olson because whoever is silent dissents silicon graphics inc maria isabel barreno olson sgi com ps i start my sabbatical may ask those questions now
comp.graphics	pascal fractals jr eve albany edu jr albnyvms bitnet go heavy or go home
comp.graphics	re detecting double points in bezier curves in article apr kpc com jbulf balsa berkeley edu jeff bulf writes in article ia b w w oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinan oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinand oeinck writes i m looking for any information on detecting and or calculating a double point and or cusp in a bezier curve an algorithm literature reference or mail about this is very appreciated there was a very useful article in one of the issues of transactions on graphics i believe maureen stone was one of the authors sorry not to be more specific i don t have the reference here with me stone derose geometric characterization of parametric cubic curves acm trans graphics manocha canny detecting cusps and inflection points in curves computer aided geometric design pekka siltanen
comp.graphics	re coreldraw bitmap to scodal my coreldraw whatever write scodl files directly look under file export on the main menu rick
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of marc t kaufman kaufman xenon stanford edu wrote does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from at this moment the king who had been for some time busily writing in his note book called out silence and read out from his book rule forty two all persons more than a mile high to leave the court everybody looked at alice i m not a mile high said alice you are said the king nearly two miles high added the queen well i sha n t go at any rate said alice besides that s not a regular rule you invented it just now it s the oldest rule in the book said the king then it ought to be number one said alice does anybody have a collection of occurances of before and after the guide if not i would like to receive any odd bits you might know postings to alt fan douglas adams l one thing is for sure the sheep is not a creature of the earth joachim kih no the back masking on haaden ii from exposure by robert fripp
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of joachim lous joachim kih no wrote ulrich galki toppoint de wrote does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from yep here s a theory that i once heard bandied around rather than thinking of the number think of the sound for tea two a sort of anagram on tea for two two for tea for tea two peter peter hauke brunel university se psh brunel ac uk
comp.graphics	re pascal fractals apparently my editor didn t do what i wanted it to do so i ll try again i m looking for any programs or code to do simple animation and or drawing using fractals in turbopascal for an ibm thanks in advance jr eve albany edu jr albnyvms bitnet go heavy or go home
comp.graphics	irit to pov has anybody made a converter from irit s irt or dat format to pov format thanks sebastian schmidt tu ilmenau institut f praktische informatik
comp.graphics	re rtrace comp graphics cad cgcad bart inescn pt wrote there is a new version of the rtrace ray tracing package at asterix inescn pt in directory pub rtrace check the readme file cant seem to reach the site from over here ping icmp net unreachable from gateway nsn fix pe sura net for icmp from ccws brunel ac uk to is it possible for you to upload to a more mainstream ftp place
comp.graphics	re help grasp quoted from apr genes icgeb trieste it by oberto genes icgeb trieste it jacques oberto file check in the graphics directories under grasp the problem is that the clp files you generate cannot be decoded by any of the many pd format converters i have used any hint welcome the gl p lzh stuff under gfx show on the aminet sites includes a utility called pic hl that is a filter for hamlab that can handle the most commonly used kinds of pic and clp files the biggest problem is that the clp files don t usually contain a palette so you need to convert a pic with the right palette first which creates a ram picpal file and then convert the clp files jacques oberto oberto genes icgeb trieste it john bickers tap jbickers templar actrix gen nz radioactivity it s in the air for you and me kraftwerk
comp.graphics	pbm plus sources where hi everybody can anyone name an anonymous ftp site where i can find the sources of the pbm plus package portable bit gray pixel map i would like to compile and run it on a sun sparcstation thanks
comp.graphics	re fractals what good are they in article mdpyssc fs mcc ac uk mdpyssc fs mcc ac uk sue cunningham writes we have been using iterated systems compression board to compress pathology images and are getting ratios of to without too much loss in quality it is taking about mins per image to compress on a mhz but decompression is almost real time on a in software alone how does that compare with jpeg on the same images and hardware as far as size speed and image quality are concerned despite my skeptical and sometimes nearly rabid postings criticizing barnsley and company i am very interested in the technique if i weren t i probably wouldn t be so critical ab
comp.graphics	re univesa driver in article news duke edu seth north acpub duke edu seth wandersman writes i got the univesa driver available over the net i thought that finally my meg oak board would be able to show x colors unfortunately a program still says that i can t do this is it the fault of the program fractint or is there something wrong with my card univesa a free driver available over the net that makes many boards vesa compatible whats this x color mode asking a lot of your hardware don lewis djlewis ualr edu
comp.graphics	re more on radiosity in article yuma acns colostate edu xz longs lance colostate edu xia zhao writes in article apr aragorn unibe ch you write let s be serious i m working on a radiosity package written in c i would like to make it public domain i ll announce it in c g the minute i finished it that were the good news the bad news it ll take another months at least to finish it are you using the traditional radiosity method progressive refinement or something else in your package my package is based on several articles about non standard radiosity and some unpublished methods the main articles are cohen chen wallace greenberg a progressive refinement approach to fast radiosity image generation computer graphics siggraph v no pp august silion puech a general two pass method integrating specular and diffuse reflection computer graphics siggraph v no pp july if you need to project patches on the hemi cube surfaces what technique are you using do you have hardware to facilitate the projection i do not use hemi cubes i have no special hardware sun sparcstation in the meantime you may have a look at the file radiosity code tar z located at compute cc ncsu edu what are the guest username and password for this ftp site use anonymous as username and your e mail address as password there are some other locations have a look at archie to get the nearest hope that ll help yours stephan thanks stephan josephine stephan stephan amann sig computer graphics university of berne switzerland amann iam unibe ch tel fax projects radiosity raytracing computer graphics
comp.graphics	xv for ms dos hi this is the response for wayne michael and certainly for other one i m sorry for the late of the answer but i couldn t find xv for msdos cause i forgot the address but i ve retrieve it posting this answer here in comp graphics cause i can t use e mail not yet my bad english cause i m a swiss and my language is french after a long time i retrieve the address where you can find xv for dos site omnigate clarkson edu aliases grape ecs clarkson edu number pub msdos djgpp pub it s xv zip i think certainly you read the other answer from kevin martin he write about dv x what is it could someone answer thanx in advance pascal perret perret eicn etna ch ecole d ing nieur ets not available at this time le locle suisse enjoy computer
comp.graphics	d studio v any differences with previous version are there significant differences between v and v thank you for helping marc e mail marc fombaron ufrima imag fr marc fombaron grenoble
comp.graphics	re coreldraw bitmap to scodal does anyone know of software that will allow you to convert coreldraw cdr files containing bitmaps to scodal as this is the only format our bureau s filmrecorder recognises jeff lyall i used this combination for a while a qcr z recorder i think and as far as i remember corel can export in scodal scd format just select export on the main file menu this may not be implemented in earlier versions of course in which case you re on your own also i seem to think that the s w for the qcr z at the time did strange and very undesirable things if any part of the pic was outside the screen area on corel i once spent an afternoon painfully discovering that one pixel had somehow strayed off screen causing my whole slide to be blank the qcr z also couldn t handle grad fill over grad fill so if you use a graduated colour background if you then grad fill an object on top of this the fill appears on the final slide as a circle i think and totally ignores the shape of the object being filled of course if the recorder isn t a qcr you can ignore all this and feel suitably cheers toby toby freeman glasgow university freemant uk ac glasgow dcs
comp.graphics	oak vga mb please i needd vesa tsr hi there well i have a with svga mb oak chip and i don t have vesa tsr program for this card i need it please if anybody can help me mail me at lulagos araucaria cec uchile cl thanks mackk o o u ack
comp.graphics	pc paintbrush iv i am trying to configure zsoft s pc paintbrush iv for use with my logitech scanman hand scanner but i can t get paintbrush to acknowledge the scanner is there anybody out there using paintbrush with a scanner if so can you help me out thanks luis nobrega the file bank bbs pcboard v a e usr hst ds nodes rime internet largest clipper file collection in the world
comp.graphics	re xv for ms dos noe mailaddress eicn etna ch wrote i m sorry for the late of the answer but i couldn t find xv for msdos cause i forgot the address but i ve retrieve it posting this answer here in comp graphics cause i can t use e mail not yet my bad english cause i m a swiss and my language is french if french is your language try counting in french in stead maybe it will work better l one thing is for sure the sheep is not a creature of the earth joachim kih no the back masking on haaden ii from exposure by robert fripp
comp.graphics	re cview answers cyberspace buddha cb wixer bga com wrote renew blade stack urc tue nl rene walter writes over where it places its temp files it just places them in its current directory i have to beg to differ on this point as the batch file i use to launch cview cd s to the dir where cview resides and then invokes it every time i crash cview the byte temp file is found in the root dir of the drive cview is on i posted this as well before the cview expert apparently he thought he knew better matthew zenkar mz moscom com
comp.graphics	image of pictures hi there i am looking for advice on software hardware package for making storing and processing of pictures the ideal software would allow me to cahnge size of the picture edit it it means add text below above and the most important is it would have dos command interface thank you in advance emanuel marciniak the bank of new york
comp.graphics	help needed on hidden line removal i am looking for some information of hidden line removal using roberts algorithm something with code or pseudo code would be especially helpful i am required to do this for a class due monday we have very little time to implement these changes it is a very fast paced class the notes given in class leave a lot to be desired so i would vastly appreciate any help actually any algorithm would be nice roberts or no the main problem is two objects intersecting in x and y dimensions need to know which lines to clip off so that one object will appear in front of another if you can give me an ftp address and filename or even the name of a good book i d really appreciate it thanks brian raynor
comp.graphics	the otis project ftp sites for original art and images the otis project the operative term is stimulate this file last updated what is otis otis is here for the purpose of distributing original artwork and photographs over the network for public perusal scrutiny and distribution digital immortality the basic idea behind digital immortality is that computer networks are here to stay and that anything interesting you deposit on them will be around near forever the gifs and jpgs of today will be the artifacts of a digital future perhaps they ll be put in different formats perhaps only surviving on backup tapes but they ll be there and someone will dig them up if that doesn t interest you otis also offers a forum for critique and exhibition of your works a virtual art gallery that never closes and exists in an information dimension where your submissions will hang as wallpaper on thousands of glowing monitors suddenly life is breathed into your work and by merit of it s stimulus it will travel the globe on pulses of light and electrons spectators are welcome also feel free to browse the gallery and let the artists know what you think of their efforts keep your own copies of the images to look at when you ve got the gumption that s what they re here for where otis currently as of has two ftp sites projects otis the uwi site sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis the sunsite you can also gopher to this site for otis as well merely anonymous ftp to either site on internet and change to the appropriate directory don t forget to get busy and use the bin command to make sure you re in binary otis has also been spreading to some dial up bbs systems around north america the following systems have a substancial supply of otistuff underground cafe omaha lines cyberden sanfran usenet waffle iron how do you contribute what happens is you draw a pretty picture or take a lovely photo get it scanned into an image file then either ftp put it in the contrib incoming directory or use uuencode to send it to me email addresses at eof in email after the image is received it will be put into the correct directory computer originated works are also welcome otis directories house two types of image files gif and jpg gif and jpg files require oddly enough a gif or jpg viewer to see these viewers are available for all types of computers at most large ftp sites around internet jpg viewers are a bit tougher to find if you can t find one but do have a gif viewer you can obtain a jpg to gif conversion program which will change jpg files to a standard gif format otis also accepts animation files when you submit image files please send me email at the same time stating information about what you uploaded and whether it is to be used in publications or other projects or if it is merely for people to view also include some biographical information on yourself we ll be having info files on each contributing artist and their works you can also just upload a text file of info about yourself instead of emailing if you have pictures but no scanner there is hope merely send copies to the otis project c o ed stastny po bx omaha ne i will either scan them myself or get them to someone who will scan them include an ample sase if you want your stuff back also include information on each image preferably a line description of the image that we can include in the infofile in the directory where it s finally put if you have preferences as to what the images are to be named include those as well conversely if you have a scanner and would like to help out please contact me and we ll arrange things if you want to submit your works by disk peachy merely send a disk to the above address omaha and a sase if you want your disk back this is good for people who don t have direct access to encoders or ftp but do have access to a scanner we accept disks in either mac or ibm compatible format if possible please submit image files as gif or jpg if you can t we can convert from most formats we d just rather not have to at senders request we can also fill disks with as much otis as they can stand even if you don t have stuff to contribute you can send a blank disk and an sase or for disk postage and packing to get a slab o otis as of we re at about megabytes of files and growing email me for current archive size and directory distribution the images distributed by the otis project may be distributed freely on the condition that the original filename is kept and that it is not altered in any way save to convert from one image format to another in fact we encourage files to be distributed to local bulletin boards and such if you could please transport the appropriate text files along with the images it would also be nice if you d send me a note when you did post images from otis to your local bbs i just want to keep track of them so participants can have some idea how widespread their stuff is it s the purpose of otis to get these images spread out as much as possible if you have the time please upload a few to your favorite bbs system or even just post this info file there it would be keen of you use if you want to use any of the works you find on the otis directory you ll have to check to see if permission has been granted and the stipulations of the permission such as free copy of publication or full address credit you will either find this in the rm file for the image or series of images or in the artists directory under the artists name if permission isn t explicitly given then you ll have to contact the artist to ask for it if no info is available email me ed cwis unomaha edu and i ll get in contact with the artist for you or give you their contact information when you do use permitted work it s always courteous to let the artist know about it perhaps even send them a free copy or some such compensation for their files naming images please keep the names of your files in dos format that means keep the filename before jpg or gif to eight characters or less the way i usually do it is to use the initials of the artist plus a three or four digit code for the series of images plus the series number thus leonardo devinci s fifth mechanical drawing would be something like ldmek gif or ldmek jpg or ldmech gif etc keeping the names under characters assures that the filename will remain intact on all systems creating image files when creating image files be sure to at least include your name somewhere on or below the picture this gives people a reference in case they d like to contact you you may also want to include a title address or other information you d like people to know hmmm that s about it for now more guidelines will be added as needed your input is expected disclaimer the otis project has no connection to the church of otis a sumerian deity or it s followers be they pope priest or ezine administrator we do take sacrifices and donations however disclaimer the otis project is here for the distribution of original image files the files will go to the public at large it s possible as with any form of mass media that someone could unscrupulously use your images for financial gain unless you ve given permission for that it s illegal otis takes no responsibility for this in simple terms all rights revert to the author artist to leave an image on otis is to give permission for it to be viewed copied and distributed electronically if you don t want your images distributed all over don t upload them to leave an image on otis is not giving permission to have it used in any publication or broadcast that incurs profit this includes but is not limited to magazines newsletters clip art software screen printed clothing etc you must give specific permission for this sort of usage remember the operative term is stimulate if you know of people that d be interested in this sort of thing get them involved kick m in the booty offer them free food whatever e ed cwis unomaha edu ed sunsite unc edu ed stastny otis project end process sound news and arts po bx ftp sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis omaha ne projects otis email ed cwis unomaha edu ed sunsite unc edu
comp.graphics	et w vl bus cards does anyone know of a vl bus video card based on the et w card if so how much will it cost where can i get one does it come with more than mb of ram and what is the windows performance like
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split chris herringshaw tdawson engin umich edu wrote concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon yes i also like knowing where to go to ask a question without getting hell for putting it in the wrong newsgroup phil martin
comp.graphics	sources for shading wanted i m looking for shading methods and algorithms please let me know if you know where to get source codes for that thanks a lot thomas thomas braun universitaet karlsruhe e mail s braun iravcl ira uka de thomas braun university karlsruhe germany email s braun iravcl ira uka de ukay dkauni bitnet
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed sol surv utas edu au stephen quan writes but i m looking for a fast polygon routine to be used in a d game a fast polygon routine to do what to draw polygons of course its a vga mode h x game hi i ve come across a fast triangle fill draw routine for mode h by calling this routine enough times you have a fast polygon drawing routine i think i ftp ed from wuarchive wustl edu pub msdos uploads programming i have a copy of it so i reupload it there the triangle txt file has this to say c and inline assembly source for a vga mode h triangle drawer another source there s a poly blitter for mode y mode x in x at sunee uwaterloo ca also there is rend an even faster d renderer with vr extensions my life is hardware dave stampe my destiny is software dstampe psych toronto edu my cpu is wetware dstampe sunee uwaterloo ca am i a techno psychologist or just a psycho engineer
comp.graphics	one day graphics composites seminar sampe ncga the university of akron and nasa lewis research center is sponsoring computers and composites a one day seminar devoted to practical applications of computer workstations for efficient processing design and manufacture of composites may at the university of akron akron ohio speakers on advancement in graphics visualization dr jay horowitz nasa integrated product development with mr michael r cowen network workstations sikorski aircraft structural analysis mr brian fite nasa stereolithography mr jason williams penn state erie molecular and physical modeling dr vassilios galiatsato of polymer curing university of akron process modeling of polymer matrix composites dr ram upadhyay ge corporate r d registration fees advance on site includes box lunch contact gary roberts nasa lewis research center or write sampe regional seminar c o gary roberts nasa lewis research center brookpark rd ms cleveland ohio or email to me and i ll get it to gary chris johnston materials engineer nasa lewis research center internet chris sarah lerc nasa gov brookpark rd ms cleveland oh usa resistance is futile
comp.graphics	ray tracing spline surfaces hi net due to further investigation i would like to study the following article peterson ray tracing general b splines proc acm mountain regional conference april unfortunately i didn t find it in any library s register if there is anyone having access to this paper or knowing about a library containing those proceedings preferrably in germany please let me know any help would be appreciated thanks a lot joerg haber joerg haber haberj mathematik tu muenchen de mathematisches institut tu muenchen
comp.graphics	hitatchi raster format hrf our shop uses a package called cadcore very good to scan and subsequently vectorize original maps into digital maps the problem is that once the raster file is loaded into the cadcore package a header is added to the hrf file which makes it unreadable by the supplied converter we would like to be able to ship some of the already altered raster images for further use on our workstations so here are my questions what is the hitachi format i need this format so i can recognize precisely what to strip out i strongly suspect that it s a compressed format if so then t might not be possible for me to strip out the offending header are there any unix packages that read and recognize hrf it would be really nice to find some sort of hrftopbm converter out there i ve already searched some of the more well known ftp sites which contain graphics formats documentation with no luck so if you know or knwo someone who knows please email thanks
comp.graphics	windows bmp to sun raster or others hi anyone has a converter from bmp to any format that xview or xv can handle this converter must run unix i looked at the faq and downloaded several packages but had no luck thanks in advance ed echen burn ee washington edu
comp.graphics	re cview answers in article moscom com mz moscom com matthew zenkar writes cyberspace buddha cb wixer bga com wrote renew blade stack urc tue nl rene walter writes over where it places its temp files it just places them in its current directory i have to beg to differ on this point as the batch file i use to launch cview cd s to the dir where cview resides and then invokes it every time i crash cview the byte temp file is found in the root dir of the drive cview is on i posted this as well before the cview expert apparently he thought he knew better matthew zenkar mz moscom com are we talking about colorview for dos here i have version and it writes the temp files to its own current directory what later versions do i admit that i don t know assuming your expert referenced above is talking about the version that i have then i d say he is correct is the colorview for unix what is being discussed just mixed up confused befuddled but genuinely and entirely curious uncle fester what god wants god wants gigolos god gets god wants giraffes god help us all god wants politics thester nyx cs du edu god wants a good laugh
comp.graphics	photoshop for windows i am looking for comments from people who have used heard about photoshop for windows is it good how does it compare to the mac version is there a lot of bugs i heard the windows version needs fine tuning any comments would be greatly appreciated thank you andre boisvert beaver rot qc ca
comp.graphics	graphics libraries i am interested in a d d graphics library which will allow our design team to write graphics software for unix workstations and be as portable as possible eventually this software will have to be moved to microsoft windows it is my opinion that a good api with hooks to pex underneath would prove most portable does anyone out there have any experience with figaro form tgs or hoops from ithaca software i would appreciate any comments claye hart claye k hart georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism ch internet claye hart gtri gatech edu
comp.graphics	scf files help needed i ve got an old demo disk that i need to view it was made using rix softworks the files on the two diskette set end with scf the demo was vga resolution colors but i don t know the spatial resolution first problem when i try to run the demo the screen has two black bars that cut across horizontally the screen in the top third and bottom third of the screen the bars are about inch wide other than this the demo the animation part seems to be running fine second problem i can t find any graphics program that will open and display these files i have a couple of image conversion programs none mention scf files the system i am using clone diamond speedstar sony monitor any suggestions thank you t castro tlc cx com
comp.graphics	question video projector i am setting up a video aid for a computer room for the teacher to share his display with the class i have seen people using video projector tv sets and large monitor to do presentations before i am told that there are three ways to connect video projector composite y c rgb can anyone explain to me the difference and their likely costs please reply to my inetnet e mail account as well as posting in bulletin u sparc nuc edu tw i also like to know if there are telnet or kermit for windows tim chen
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of silly well is binary and who would forget that its the answer to the question of life the universe and everything else that is to quote douglas adams in a round about way of course the question has not yet been discovered mark a cartwright n snp university of texas austin computation center graphics facility markc emx utexas edu markc sirius cc utexas edu markc hermes chpc utexas edu x pp asel a often in error never in doubt b this situation has no gravity i would like a refund please
comp.graphics	looking for wmf converter i m looking for any leads to the source of a good windows meta file converter or interpreter i need this for use outside the windows environment pd sources preferred but not a requirement please reply to the address below david buchholz internet buck ileaf com product manager uucp uunet leafusa buck interleaf inc voice x
comp.graphics	wanted super mm projector with sounds i am looking for super mm projector with sounds if anybody out there has one for sale send email with the name of brand condition of the projector and price for sale to kimd rpi edu it must have sound capability danny kimd rpi edu
comp.graphics	coreldraw bitmap to scodal yes i am aware coreldraw exports in scodal version did it quite well apart from a few hassles with radial fills version revb is better but if you try to export in scodal with a bitmap image included in the drawing it will say something like cannot export scodal with bitmap at least it does on my version if anyone out there knows a way around this i am all ears temporal images make a product called filmpak which converts autocad plots to scodal postscript to scodal and now gif to scodal but it costs and i was just wondering if there was anything out there that just did the bitmap to scodal part a tad cheaper jeff lyall inst geo nuc sci ltd lower hutt new zealand
comp.graphics	re need specs info on apple quicktime add sciences sdsu edu james d murray writes i need to get the specs or at least a very verbose interpretation of the specs for quicktime technical articles from magazines and references to books would be nice too i also need the specs in a format usable on a unix or ms dos system i can t do much with the quicktime stuff they have on ftp apple com in its present format apple just released the quicktime volume of the new inside macintosh series any bookstore with reasonable technical stock should have it bill jones billj beowulf b ingr com
comp.graphics	image analysis for pc hi i am looking for image analysis software running in dos or windows i d like to be able to analyze tiff or similar files to generate histograms of patterns etc any help would be appreciated fourie joubert department of biochemistry university of pretoria bio navi up ac za
comp.graphics	re sources for shading wanted in article r ih innldi irau ira uka de s braun irav ira uka de thomas braun writes i m looking for shading methods and algorithms please let me know if you know where to get source codes for that illumination and color in computer generated imagery by roy hall contains c source for several famous illumination models including bouknight phong blinn whitted and hall illumination models if you want an introduction to shading you might look through the book writing a raytracer edited by glassner also the book procedural elements for computer graphics by rogers is a good reference source for code in these book are available on the net i believe you might check out nic funet fi or some site closer to you carrying graphics related stuff hope this is what you were asking for torgeir veimo studying at the university of bergen i m gona wave my freak flag high jimi hendrix and it would be okay on any other day the police
comp.graphics	re cview answers cyberspace buddha cb wixer bga com wrote renew blade stack urc tue nl rene walter writes over where it places its temp files it just places them in its current directory i have to beg to differ on this point as the batch file i use to launch cview cd s to the dir where cview resides and then invokes it every time i crash cview the byte temp file is found in the root dir of the drive cview is on this is what i posted that cview uses the root directory of the drive cview is on however since it has so much trouble reading large files from floppy i suspect that it uses the root directory of the drive the image files are on matthew zenkar mz moscom com
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split i haven t been following this thread so appologies if this has already been mentioned but how about comp graphics d kaveh kardan kardank ere umontreal ca
comp.graphics	re fast wireframe graphics in article c tk u c t cs columbia edu ykim cs columbia edu yong su kim writes i am working on a program to display d wireframe models with the user being able to arbitrarily change any of the viewing parameters also the wireframe objects are also going to have dynamic attributes so that they can move around while the user is exploring the wireframe world why don t you consider phigs in x or pex lib yeh usc
comp.graphics	re detecting double points in bezier curves in article almaden ibm com capelli vnet ibm com ron capelli writes in ia b w w oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinand oeinck writes i m looking for any information on detecting and or calculating a double point and or cusp in a bezier curve see maureen stone and tony derose a geometric characterization of parametric cubic curves acm tog vol no july pp i ve used that reference and found that i needed to go to their original tech report maureen stone and tony derose characterizing cubic bezier curves xerox edl december this report can be obtained for free from xerox corporation palo alto research center coyote hill road palo alto california the tog paper was good but this tech report had more interesting details john
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of in c scgu ll mentor cc purdue edu ab nova cc purdue edu allen b writes i ve got the spec obviously since i quoted it in my last posting my gripe about tiff is that it s far too complicated and nearly infinitely easier to write than to read why not use the pd c library for reading writing tiff files it took me a good minutes to start using them in your own app martin martin preston m preston manchester ac uk computer graphics computer graphics unit manchester computing centre is just university of manchester a load of balls manchester u k m pl phone
comp.graphics	diamond stelth any good i am in the market for a bit graphics card for a pc isa bus and was wondering if anyone had any comments good bad otherwise regarding the diamond stealth
comp.graphics	re trying to view pov files edward d nobles ednobles sacam oren ortn edu wrote i ve been trying to view tga files created in povray i have the diamond speedstar video board not the x so far i can convert them to jpeg using cjpeg and view them with cview but that only displays bit color just want to see the darn things in real color i have an ati ultra pro card and have found that the easiest way to view true color images is using their windows drivers and something like winjpeg or photofinish if anyone has a non windows solution i d love to hear it dane
comp.graphics	ati gup and graphics wkshop win i have an ati graph ultra pro vlb w megs and have a small question about graphics workshop for windows when i exit from it it says my current driver can handle on colors when i am actually in x x color mode is this a driver problem a gws error or what i am using the driver under win it correctly states that i can display m colors when i switch to x x bit though another question anybody know of any viewers that support this card other than windows viewers any help would be appreciated
comp.graphics	re photoshop for windows in article c uhim jfq rot qc ca beaver rot qc ca andre boivert writes i am looking for comments from people who have used heard about photoshop for windows is it good how does it compare to the mac version is there a lot of bugs i heard the windows version needs fine tuning any comments would be greatly appreciated thank you andre boisvert beaver rot qc ca an review of both the mac and windows versions in either pc week or info world this week said that the windows version was considerably slower than the mac a more useful comparison would have been between photostyler and photoshop for windows david david farley the university of chicago library east th street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	targa format text file does anyone know how to convert a targa or similar bit picture into a list of r g b values and then convert back to targa after doing operations on the p ixels r g b codes ex targa pixel pixel etc if no one can help me with this could someone explain how the bit data is st ored in the targa file and also how its stored in the bit targas thanks
comp.graphics	call for presentations navy sciviz vr seminar nd call for presentations navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar tuesday june carderock division naval surface warfare center formerly the david taylor research center bethesda maryland sponsor ness navy engineering software system is sponsoring a one day navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar the purpose of the seminar is to present and exchange information for navy related scientific visualization and virtual reality programs research developments and applications presentations presentations are solicited on all aspects of navy related scientific visualization and virtual reality all current work works in progress and proposed work by navy organizations will be considered four types of presentations are available regular presentation minutes in length short presentation minutes in length video presentation a stand alone videotape author need not attend the seminar scientific visualization or virtual reality demonstration byoh accepted presentations will not be published in any proceedings however viewgraphs and other materials will be reproduced for seminar attendees abstracts authors should submit a one page abstract and or videotape to robert lipman naval surface warfare center carderock division code bethesda maryland voice fax e mail lipman oasys dt navy mil authors should include the type of presentation their affiliations addresses telephone and fax numbers and addresses multi author papers should designate one point of contact deadlines the abstact submission deadline is april notification of acceptance will be sent by may materials for reproduction must be received by june for further information contact robert lipman at the above address please distribute as widely as possible thanks robert lipman internet lipman oasys dt navy mil david taylor model basin cdnswc or lip ocean dt navy mil computational signatures and voicenet structures group code factsnet bethesda maryland phishnet stockings long legs the sixth sick shiek s sixth sheep s sick
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious i disagree you could learn the same amount by reading all the split groups and it would make things easier for those of us who are less omnivorous there is no waste in creating news groups its just a bit of shuffling about i have no problem with only a few posts per week per group i spend too much time on this as it is david
comp.graphics	jpeg file format where could i find a description of the jpg file format specifically i need to know where in a jpg file i can find the height and width of the image and perhaps even the number of colors being used any suggestions peter uucp peterbak microsoft is this all that i am is there compuserve nothing more v ger
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac in article john shepardson esh moose slac stanford edu john shepardson esh qmail slac stanford edu john shepardson writes can you please offer some recommendations d graphics there has been a fantastic d programmers package for some years that has been little advertised and apparently nobody knows about called d graphic tools written by mark owen of micro system options in seattle wa i reviewed it a year or so ago and was really awed by it s capabilities it also includes tons of code for many aspects of mac programming including offscreen graphics it does zbuffering bit graphics has a database for representing graphical objects and more it is very well written mpw c think c and hypercard and the code is highly reusable last time i checked the price was around well worth it their is i ve talked with mark and he faxed some literature though it wasn t very helpful just a list of routine names bsplinesurface drawstring d names there was a product info sheet that explained some of the package capabilities i also found a review in april may mactutor it does look like a good package the current price is us
comp.graphics	looking for mr radon does anyone have a radon transform in c that they could send me any help accepted for a lot of au music ftp sounds sdsu edu then cat file au dev audio ub library catalog telnet bison acsu buffalo edu when in doubt ask xarchie xgopher or xwais
comp.graphics	re ray tracer for ms dos in article r cqiinnje srvr engin umich edu tdawson llullaillaco engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes sorry for the repeat of this request but does anyone know of a good free shareware program with which i can create ray traces and save them as bit mapped files of course if there is such a thing thanks in advance daemon there are books published by m t books that come with c source code on floppies they are programming in dimensions d graphics ray traycing and animation by christopher d watkins and larry sharp photorealism and ray tracing in c by christopher d watkins stephen b coy and mark finlay i have the first book and it is a great intro to d ray tracing and animation most of the programs are on the disk compiled and ready to run i have only glanced at the second book but it also appears to be good hope this helps mark larsen markl hunan rastek com this r unit has a bad motivator luke star wars
comp.graphics	re color pict of spinning earth estop conrad appstate edu acs writes sorry if this is the wrong place to post this i was crusing the net earlier this year and came upon something called color pict of spinning earth i am assuming it is a animation sequence of the earth s rotation or revolution i always get those mixed up at the time i found it my sysem would not even support color graphics so i didn t bother to get the pict now i have a fairly nice system and cant find the pict again if anyone can help please post here or e mail me thanks in advance eric estop conrad appstate edu likewise for me please first time i ve hear of it but i ve beem looking for something like this for the past few months patrick hew nd year science engineering university of western australia phew tartarus uwa edu au phew mackerel gu uwa edu au
comp.graphics	cornerstone dualpage driver wanted i am looking for a window driver for cornerstone dualpage cornerstone technology inc video card does anybody know that has these is there one thanks for any info to nis to nis kelder estonian biocentre tkelder kask ebc ee
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article fox apr graphics nyu edu fox graphics cs nyu edu david fox writes concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious i disagree you could learn the same amount by reading all the split groups and it would make things easier for those of us who are less omnivorous there is no waste in creating news groups its just a bit of shuffling about i have no problem with only a few posts per week per group i spend too much time on this as it is yes but shouldn t size of newsgroup be an issue sorry if this has been covered before but comp grahpics animation get how much traffic per day articles maybe on an extremely heavy day i ve been following this group for about four months now and i don t recall ever seeing such a flood of posts that a split would be warranted just my cents mitch jmcocker eos ncsu edu who doth render with sx knoweth frustration
comp.graphics	re scf files help needed tlc cx com writes second problem i can t find any graphics program that will open and display these files i have a couple of image conversion programs none mention scf files rix s files with the extension sci and scf are just a raw file with a color palette the first bytes is a kind of header with the name rix among bytes unknown stuff the you have bytes of palette info for the colors rgb and then you have the picture in raw format if you dont know how to make a viewer of of this description you can get vpic it is able to read the files regards thomas
comp.graphics	conversion of pic format files to hpgl files hello can anybody help me with the conversion of pic format files to hpgl files the question is as follows is it possible to convert files that have been generated in the pic preprocessor format into hpgl format suitable for sending to a plotter the hardware involved is ibm risc running aix how should this be done and what software is involved where is it available what does it cost what are the problems regards dani cimad consultants antwerp belgium dani cimad be
comp.graphics	hijaak i have heard some impressive things about hijakk for windows currently i use a shareware program called graphics workshop what kinds of things will hijaak do that these shareware programs will not do what has been your experience with hijaak are there other programs that are better please email me if you can help wayne haston haston utkvx utk edu thanks
comp.graphics	re graphics libraries does anyone out there have any experience with figaro form tgs or hoops from ithaca software i would appreciate any comments yes i do a couple of years ago i did a comparison of the two products some of this may have changed but here goes as far as a phigs implementation figaro is fine but its phigs personally i hate phigs because i find it is too low level i also dislike structure editing which i find impossible but enough about phigs i have found hoops to be a system that is full featured and easy to use they support all of their rendering methods in software when there is no hardware support their documentation is good and they are easily portable to other systems i would be happy to elaborate further if you have more specific questions here s lookin at ya o bill wlm wisdom attmail com phone x
comp.graphics	canon copier printer postscript questions printer model and specification canon clc color laser copier ps ipu unit postscript intelligent processing unit hello we have recently purchased a very expensive and nice color copier printer we want to be able to print to it from our sgi iris network the copier printer has both a parallel and scsi interface i have configured the printer with the lp system using the parallel interface and can print postscript files to the printer i can also print rgb files but these are in turn converted to postscript by an internal filter the canon clc is a publication quality printer but the quality of our postscript printouts are less than acceptable we create the postscript files with a variaty of programs such as showcase xv and tops when we convert to postscript with tops and use the l option to specify the halftone screen density of rather than the default the output is better but still much less that acceptable note that we are starting with a screen image in rgb image format and translating the image into postscript we suspect that if we could use the scsi interface we would get higher quality pictures we have not purchased the software that drives the printer from the scsi port to my knowledge this software is and does not come with a warranty the management here does not want to spend this much money without some assurance that the product will work here my questions if anybody on the net uses this printer are you using the scsi or parallel port what is the quality of the printouts is there a way to create high quality postscript printouts what is the limiting component the postscript language or the postscript interpretor on the printer the big question where can i get some software to drive the scsi port for this printer please email directly to me i don t not read news on a regular basis i will post a summary thanks in advance e mail scott ncifcrf gov phone title sr systems manager analyst
comp.graphics	ray tracing pictures for those who are interested in ray traced pictures there is a nice example on alt binaries pictures misc the file is called poolball gif it shows a pooltable with yes poolballs resolution x colours only the tga bit version is also available but a bit big mb to post the picture is created with pov ray enjoy gerco cgschot cs ruu nl gerco schot cgschot cs ruu nl
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of ulrich galki toppoint de wrote does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from forty two is six times nine
comp.graphics	d display software i have the need for displaying d surfaces under x using only xlib xt and xm does anyone know of a package available on internet which will be able to do the work i am looking for a stand alone package providing similar functions to xprism available with khoros but without the numerous libraries required for it i want to be able to recompile it and run it on various platforms from sgis to i s unix any help will be appreciated demetrios sapounas tel l nswc fax dahlgren va usa email ds aris nswc navy mil
comp.graphics	re looking for wmf converter buck hq ileaf com david buchholz x writes i m looking for any leads to the source of a good windows meta file converter or interpreter i need this for use outside the windows environment pd sources preferred but not a requirement please reply to the address below on a related topic i have been searching with no success for a specification of the enhanced metafile format i have the original wmf format graphics file formats levine et al but no info on the bit version any pointers eric w sink spyglass in all the earth only humans have the ability woodfield drive to be content in bad situations savoy il and vice versa e sink uiuc edu
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of silly mark a cartwright markc emx utexas edu wrote well is binary and who would forget that its the answer to the question of life the universe and everything else that is to quote douglas adams in a round about way of course the question has not yet been discovered but it was discovered sort of the question was what is times when arthur dent objected that this was unfortunately factually inaccurate the effort to discover the question was begun all over this last effort was i believe likely to take far longer than the lifespan of the universe in fact several lifespans of same mark wilson online computer systems or try email address mark ocsmd ocs com this file disclaims everything signed with my signature i mean it
comp.graphics	wanted matrox pg cv driver hi i need a windows driver for the matrox pg cv svga card at the moment windows runs only in the x mode if you have a driver for this card please send it with the oemsetup inf to bockamp informatik tu muenchen de thanks florian bockamp bockamp informatik tu muenchen de o o ooo ooo it s not a bug it s an undocumented feature
comp.graphics	fixed point math library has anyone written or seen a c library or c class for fixed point math or good articles about same i pretty much know how to do this but i have a few other wheels to invent at the moment thanks how am i typing call jack robotics jpl nasa gov jack morrison jet propulsion lab ms oak grove dr pasadena ca
comp.graphics	needed algorithms for d d object recognition hi i have a friend who is working on d and d object recognition he is looking for references describing algorithms on the following subject areas thresholding edge segmentation marr hildreth sobel operator chain codes thinning skeletonising if anybody is willing to post an algorithm that they have implemented which demonstrates any of the above topics it would be much appreciated please post all replies to my e mail address if requested i will post a summary to the newsgroup in a couple of weeks thanks in advance for all replies james eb city ac uk
comp.graphics	re hijaak haston donald wayne haston utkvx utk edu wrote currently i use a shareware program called graphics workshop what kinds of things will hijaak do that these shareware programs will not do i also use graphic workshop and the only differences that i know of are that hijaak has screen capture capabilities and acn convert to from a couple of more file formats don t know specifically which one in the april issue of pc magazine they test the twelve best selling image capture convert utilities including hijaak tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	adobe photo shop type software for unix x motif platforms hello i have been searching for a quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix x motif platforms that is comparable to adobe photo shop for the mac i have not been able to find any and would appreciate any information about such products you could provide i would be particularly interested in software that runs on hp or sun workstations and does not require special add in hardware but would also be interested in other solutions thank you wayne wayne michael wdm world std com
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of in article prestonm cs man ac uk prestonm cs man ac uk martin preston writes why not use the pd c library for reading writing tiff files it took me a good minutes to start using them in your own app i certainly do use it whenever i have to do tiff and it usually works very well that s not my point i m philosophically opposed to it because of its complexity this complexity has led to some programs poor tiff writers making some very bizarre files other programs inability to load tiff images though they ll save them of course and a general inability to interchange images between different environments despite the fact they all think they understand tiff as the saying goes it s not me i m worried about it s all the other assholes out there i ve had big trouble with misuse and abuse of tiff over the years and i chalk it all up to the immense and unnecessary complexity of the format in the words of the tiff spec appendix g page g capitalized emphasis mine the only problem with this sort of success is that tiff was designed to be powerful and flexible at the expense of simplicity it takes a fair amount of effort to handle all the options currently defined in this specification probably no application does a complete job and that is currently the only way you can be sure that you will be able to import any tiff image since there are so many image generating applications out there now if a program or worse all applications can t read every tiff image that means there are some it won t some that i might have to deal with why would i want my images to be trapped in that format i don t and neither should anyone who agrees with my reasoning not that anyone does of course ab
comp.graphics	marching cubs hello hello i was wondering if anyone knew of a pc or mac implementation of the marching cubes algorithm that will output the individual faces if there is no such application might there be some c source code that i could modify to implement the algorithm and get to the individual faces thanks in advance sincerly tracy tracy j abildskov phone fax address brigham young university department of psychology e mail abild bert cs byu edu provo ut usa
comp.graphics	epson hpgl pen plotter w pens b o greetings i have an epson hi pen plotter forsale it emulates an hp or i m not sure which it has an option board on it that does the emulation it has a serial interface with hardware handshake i also have pens for it as follows packs of black oil based packs of red green blue and black pens packs of aqueous black packs of aqueous r g blue black pack of aqueous multi color pens and assorted non packaged pens mostly colored the plotter is used i have tested it using the windows drivers for hp and hp and both worked fine it accepts either a or b sized paper x or x i figure that the plotter is worth about and the pens are worth at least another more one thing is certain you won t need to purchase any pens for quite a while all of the packaged pens were sealed so they are all still fresh the rest were capped and seem to function as well i d be willing to sell the pens seperate if anyone is interested in just them i m selling it because i got a hp laserjet and i don t need color i d like or best offer chert chert pellett chert dungeon cirr com chert dungeon lonestar org panic the cat is nibbling on the power cord
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of silly mark wilson mark ocsmd ocs com wrote mark a cartwright markc emx utexas edu wrote is binary and who would forget that its the answer to the question of life the universe and everything else of course the question has not yet been discovered but it was discovered sort of the question was what is times read on and there s a special prize at the bottom amaze your friends and gain respect from your peers that you can carry on so long about the number the original question was what is the meaning of life the universe and and everything the answer generated by deep thought the nd largest computer ever created was deep thought realized that to understand the answer one must really know what the question is unfortunately he didn t but he was able to help build the largest computer named earth which could figure out the real question i know this is background knowledge for everyone here just bear with me a sec when arthur pulled the scrabble tiles out of the bag he spelled out what is nine times six or the like however it is not clear that the monkey man had the right question in his brain especially since it was that lady in the diner which was vaporized moments later that came up with the answer to how everyone could get along on the other hand marvin said he saw the answer in dent s brain so lets presume it s correct well nine times six is forty two in base chew on that for awhile chris russell custom software networks case tools and consulting adaptive solutions sun sparc sgi iris hp apollo macintosh pc internet crussell netcom com gte u s mail p o box diamond bar ca
comp.graphics	re sphere from points there is another useful method based on least sqyares estimation of the sphere equation parameters the points x y z on a spherical surface with radius r and center a b c can be written as x a y b z c r this equation can be rewritten into the following form ax by cz r a b c x y z approximate the left hand part by f x y z p x p x p z p for all datapoints i c determine the parameters p p which minimise the average error f x y z x y z in numerical recipes in c can be found algorithms to solve these parameters the best fitting sphere will have center a b c p p p radius r sqrt p a a b b c c so at last will this solve you sphere estination problem at least for the most situations i think quick van rijt rytg fel tno nl
comp.graphics	polygon fill routine needed hi i am looking for a polygon fill routine to fill simple sided polygons can some one who has this routine in c help me in saving my reinventing time thanx in advance rao
comp.graphics	disney animation can anyone tell me anything about the disney animation software package note the followup line this is not for me but for a colleague
comp.graphics	re rumours about do read issue of wired magazine it has a long article on the hype of do i ve noticed that every article talks with the designers and how great it is but never show any pictures of the output or at least pictures that one can understand kirk membry our age is the age of industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.graphics	re d studio v any differences with previous version fombaron marc fombaron ufrima imag fr wrote are there significant differences between v and v thank you for helping no as i recall the only differences are in the ds set parameters some of the defaults have changed slightly i ll look when i get home and let you know but there isn t enough to actually warrant upgrading douginoz
comp.graphics	re cview answers ray knight rknight stiatl salestech com wrote uk nx mik uky edu bryan k williams writes re majority of users not readding from floppy well how about those of us who have picture cd roms and would like to use cview because it is fast and it works well but can t because the moron lacked the foresight to create the temp file in the program s path not the current didrectory actually the most flexible way to create temp files is to check for a temp or tmp environment variable and create the files on the drive and directory pointedto by the variable this is pretty much a standard for dos windows and os applications unfortunately cview does not pay attention to the temp environment variable matthew zenkar mz moscom com
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of martin preston prestonm cs man ac uk wrote in c scgu ll mentor cc purdue edu ab nova cc purdue edu allen b writes i ve got the spec obviously since i quoted it in my last posting my gripe about tiff is that it s far too complicated and nearly infinitely easier to write than to read why not use the pd c library for reading writing tiff files it took me a good minutes to start using them in your own app martin what is the name of this pd c library for tiff i d like to get a copy of it but i can t archie for something i don t have the filename for thanks
comp.graphics	need info on cc mail file format i need the file format for cc mail file formats it seems to be pcx based but with a twist only the first page of a multi page fax will come out readable the other pages disappear the format seems to be proprietary anybody got any clues i have to give my email faxes to my secretary in order to get em unscrambled i want a filter from cc mail to p nb m come to think of it p nb m to cc mail would be nice too tonyo master cna tek com
comp.graphics	medical images via gopher a few days back someone posted info on a gopher site where you could search for medical graphics etc could someone please repost or mail me a copy i d greatly appreciate it thanks mark mark morley unix sun manager net morley camosun bc ca camosun college interurban campus tel interurban road room tech fax victoria b c canada v x x
comp.graphics	morphing keywords i am looking for some morphing programs for dec s or pc s i looked for a program called dmorph using archie but could not find it i found a progrmam call morpho but it only did grayscale images does anyone know where i should look
comp.graphics	graphics driver standards i have a researcher who collecting electical impulses from the human heart through a complex analog to digital system he has designed and inputting this information into his eisa bus hp vectra computer running dos and the phar lap dos extender he want to purchase a very high performance video card for d modeling he is aware of a company called matrox but he is concerned about getting married to a company and their video routine library he would hope some more flexibility to choose between several card manufacturers with a standard video driver he would like to write more generic code code that could be easily moved to other cards or computer operating systems in the future is there any hope any information would be greatly appreciated please if possible respond directly to internet mail to raymaker bcm tmc edu thanks
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of silly in article r lf fu geraldo cc utexas edu mark a cartwright markc emx utexas edu writes well is binary and who would forget that its the answer to the question of life the universe and everything else that is to quote douglas adams in a round about way of course the question has not yet been discovered but the question was later revealed to be what is x in the base system of course chuck divine
comp.graphics	d animation station i am looking for some information about d animation stations that are currently on the market the price of the station can be from k k but no more than type of workstation doesnt matter pc mac sgi etc if you use or have bought looked at one or can suggest your dream machine then please mail me your configurations i need the following type of station pc mac etc expandibilty of the machine software that can run on it vtr controller and or vtr deck model name vendors names and numbers thanks in advance ken eyler eylerken u washington edu the evergreen state college
comp.graphics	xlib and bit displays info needed hi my name is rahul and i am doing ms at usu logan my query is i have a hp workstation hp series with x running on it i have a true color bit color monitor connected to this machine normally i have the capability to display colors from a max of million since the monitor is true color i can see million at a time que do we have a facility in x c function call that will enable me to specify any rgb combination and see it on screen i am using xstorecolor to set the pallette of a max of colors que if not is there any way i can display a true color image on a true color monitor using xlib function calls we are generating ray traced images and colors are indeed a painful limit besides i need the facility to display the true color images i will be generating on a true color system without color quantification please if anyone can help i d be obliged rahul sl pr cc usu edu
comp.graphics	tiff anything are there any tiff to anything programs out there for the ibm our scanner works into tiff and i can view it on cshow but all of my other programs read errors are there any basic tiff to jpeg gif pcx bmp etc thanks for the time email or post acceptable joshuaf that geiger scan looks like dookie i know it s a tiff
comp.graphics	imagine for pc is impulse shipping imagine for the pc how close is it to the amiga s imagine in terms of features roland chia air cooled email kruzifix netcom com free falling voice carbon unit
comp.graphics	screen capture cymk converter i have a small program to extract a x image from a vga color screen and store that image in a tiff file i need to insert the image into a sales brochure which i then need printed in color on a mac i would use photoshop to separate the image into eps files and then pull it into quark express then get it printed to film on a lintronix at a service bureau however i don t have a mac but i do have windows what would i need to do this type of operation in the windows environment are there any separation programs available on the net is there a good page layout program that i should look into thanks in advance shmuel einstein shmuel einstein com shmuel einstein associates inc wilshire blvd suite e beverly hills ca fax
comp.graphics	hp xx for dos is there a precompiled version of hp xx for dos out there prefereably for
comp.graphics	re virtual reality for x on the cheap in article apr mfltd co uk sts mfltd co uk steve sherwood x writes has anyone got multiverse to work i have built it on svr mips svr s and sun sparcstation there seems to be many bugs in it the dogfight and dactyl simply do nothing after fixing a bug where a variable is defined twice in two different modules one needed setting to static else the client core dumped steve extn sts mfltd co uk uunet mfocus sts micro focus just like pariah i have no name rm rf west street living in a blaze of obscurity rum ruff splat newbury need courage to survive the day berkshire england a bort r etry i nfluence with large hammer i built it on a rs my only motif machine works fine i added some objects into dogfight so i could get used to flying this was very easy all in all cool brian
comp.graphics	d animation studio file format is the ds file format for autodesk s d animation studio available thanks gary please respond by email i have a hell of a time keeping up with news
comp.graphics	re ray tracer for ms dos in article r cqiinnje srvr engin umich edu tdawson llullaillaco engin umich edu chris herringshaw wrote sorry for the repeat of this request but does anyone know of a good free shareware program with which i can create ray traces and save them as bit mapped files of course if there is such a thing thanks in advance daemon ppppp ooooo v v persistance of vision raytracer p p o o v v p p o o v v ppppp o o v v p o o v v p o o v v p ooooo v available on archie and wuarchive in graphics type directories ps it s freeware kai howells kai h postoffice utas edu au mortimer ave new town tas ph within australia elsewhere
comp.graphics	sigkids research showcase call sigkids call for participation sigkids research showcase is where learning is hip pushing the edge in education computer graphics and new technologies the sigkids research showcase will provide siggraph s attendees with the latest in applying computer technology to form state of the art educational experiences so hop to it submit any works which converge the disciplines of education and computer technology possible categories and domains include but are not limited to interactive stand alone applications self run demonstrations and tutorials museum installations groupware collaborative systems hypermedia virtual reality scientific visualization interactive art microworlds deadlines may submissions due submit to diane schwartz siggraph sigkids committee c o the institute for the learning sciences maple avenue suite evanston illinois fax schwartz ils nwu edu electronic submission form schwartz ils nwu edu how to submit fill out the permission to use form see page of the siggraph call for participation or send email to schwartz ils nwu edu to have one faxed to you fill out the sigkids research showcase submission form below send an abstract description of the submission approximately words in one of the following ways a send hard copies to diane schwartz via surface mail at the above address or b fax copy to diane schwartz at or c email copy to diane schwartz at schwartz ils nwu edu if it is necessary to explain the project additional support material such as videotapes and slides that will assist the selection committee in reaching a decision are highly reccommended fax and email submissions are acceptable please send all of your submission material in the same form either surface mail email or fax the only exception to this should be the additional support material which should only be sent via surface mail note due to our very limited budget if the submitter chooses to have a dedicated machine for their work they will have to pay rental fees for the hardware personally note contributors outside for the united states should be aware of customs and carrier delays and send submissions early cut here acm siggraph sigkids research showcase entry form a copy of this form must accompany each proposal you submit send sigkids research showcase entries to diane schwartz siggraph sigkids committee c o the institute for the learning sciences maple avenue suite evanston illinois fax schwartz ils nwu edu please print legibly contact information name company address city state postal code country daytime phone evening phone fax email additional information title or theme of piece participant s name s collaborator s name s hardware platform and periferals what is needed supplied by participant yes no dedicated machine yes no note due to our very limited budget the participant must pay the rental fees for any dedicated hardware need assistance specify software statement please tell us the significance of the work less than words medium other describe i e virtual reality virtual sculpture interactive multimedia installation etc special requirements physical description power dimensions other authorization permission to use visual and audio in the event that materials used in my acm siggraph sigkids research showcase entry contain the work of other individuals or organizations including any copyrighted musical compositions or excerpts thereof i understand that it is my responsibility to secure any necessary permissions and or liscenses yes no my piece contains images audio or video components if yes yes no i have the necessary rights and or permissions to use the images audio or video components in my piece conference presentation release by signing this form i grant siggraph permission to consider my piece for the sigkids research showcase i maintain the copyright to my work and will receive full credit wherever this work is used conference promotional material i grant acm siggraph the right to 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grant siggraph the right to distribute your work while you maintain the copyright slide sets and catalogs are publications for which you grant siggraph nonexclusive worldwide distribution rights siggraph marks each item in these publications with a proper copyright notice which informs viewers that these items may not be copied reproduced broadcast or used for commercial purposes without the explicit permission of the indivicual copyright owners in addition this form asks if acm siggraph may use the your materials for conference and organizational promotional material in exchange for full author artist credit information
comp.graphics	wanted playmation info hi folks does anyone have a copy of playmation they d be willing to sell me i d love to try it out but not for the retail if you have moved onto something bigger ds or better imagine i d love to buy your table scraps if noone is selling can anyone recommend a place to buy playmation mail order for cheap thanks in advance mark mark marino omar osf org uunet osf omar open software foundation cambridge center cambridge ma
comp.graphics	re marching cubs i saw this subject and all i could think of was a parade at wrigley field in chicago or maybe it s just me marc cooper graphics programmer sverdrup tech as a child i was an fsmarc lerc nasa gov imaginary playmate nasa lewis research center ms brookpark dr tom robbins cleveland oh even cowgirls get the blues disclaimer it s mine all mine d duck
comp.graphics	pov file constructor for unix x hi i m just getting into povray and i was wondering if there is a graphic package that outputs pov files any help would be appreciated thanks later ish craig i didn t do it nobody saw me do it you can t prove anything ccc c ccc c chumphre comp vuw ac nz
comp.graphics	re more on radiosity amann iam unibe ch stephan amann writes in article yuma acns colostate edu xz longs lance colostate edu xia zhao writes in article apr aragorn unibe ch you write let s be serious i m working on a radiosity package written in c i would like to make it public domain i ll announce it in c g the minute i finished it that were the good news the bad news it ll take another months at least to finish it please note that there are some radiosity packages in my resource listing under the subject ftp list greetings nick nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax usenet editor of comp graphics resource listing and soc culture greece faq ntua ua acm student chapter chair we re organizing a small conference in comp graphics call if you re interested to participate nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	finding equally spaced points on a sphere hello i know that this has been discussed before but at the time i didn t need to teselate a sphere so if any kind soul has the code or the alg that was finally decided upon as the best as i recall it was a nice iterative subdivision meathod i would be very appreciative thomas deweese deweeset rdrc rpi edu
comp.graphics	re grayscale printer have you considered the apple laserwriter iig we use it for all our b w image printing
comp.graphics	help advice on what video system to buy if this question is covered elsewhere i apologize but i need information fast my department has been given a large sum of money to install a video system on our network of ibm rs workstations this is not an area in which i have any expertise so i wonder if anyone out there can offer advice we would like a system based either on vhs or mm video which will allow one write video frame by frame on tape for play back in real time it s for visualization of physics problems can anyone tell me what hardware is available which would work for our system some support software is obviously needed too but nothing particularly sophisticated since the software we actually use for the visualization is all already written please email with replies as i don t read this group many thanks for your help dr m e j newman department of physics cornell university newmme helios tn cornell edu
comp.graphics	re tiff anything there is a program called graphic workshop you can ftp from wuarchive the file is in the msdos graphics directory and is called grfwk t zip this program should od everthing you need tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	re sun ipx root window display background picture in article apr osi com scott osi com scott fleming writes hello netters i have a fairly weak question to ask everybody in netland i ve looked though the last faq for comp graphics but i didn t find my answer thus the post i ll keep it short question how do i display any raster files gif files iff or tiff images that i have on my root window or background i have a sun ipc openwindows sun os if that helps any i ve compiled pov for the sun and would like to display some of the work i have done as a background tile thanks for any help or information that you provide have a good day scott fleming osi p s kudo s to the people who provided pov its great scott i m not so sure if this is helpful but i usually use xv v i use sun ipcs and ipxs and it works fine it can display in a good number of ways root being one of them it s also possible to have xv put up a background automatically at login hope this helps jason weiler weilej rpi edu btw xv v is on anonymous ftp somewhere archie fer it
comp.graphics	re detecting double points in bezier curves renner adobe com john renner writes in article almaden ibm com capelli vnet ibm com ron ca in ia b w w oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinand oeinck writes i m looking for any information on detecting and or calculating a double point and or cusp in a bezier curve see maureen stone and tony derose a geometric characterization of parametric cubic curves acm tog vol no july pp i ve used that reference and found that i needed to go to their original tech report maureen stone and tony derose characterizing cubic bezier curves xerox edl december first thanks to all who replied to my original question i ve implemented the ideas from the article above and i m very satisfied with the results i needed it for my bezier curve approximation routine in some cases generating offset curves loops can occur i now have a fast method of detecting the generation of a curve with a loop although i did not follow the article above strictly the check if the fourth control point lies in the the loop area which is bounded by two parabolas and one ellips is too complicated instead i enlarged the loop area and surrounded it by for straight lines the check is now simple and fast and my approximation routine never ever outputs self intersecting bezier curves again ferdinand
comp.graphics	dregistere xv for ms dos pascal perret in article apr eicn etna ch wrote site omnigate clarkson edu aliases grape ecs clarkson edu number pub msdos djgpp pub it s xv zip i think certainly you read the other answer from kevin martin he write about dv x what is it could someone answer funny thing the internet i have no idea what xv might be except that it might be something to do with x windows on pcs if you know and have used it and think that it is good email me ryanph mrl dsto gov au dv x is a common abbreviation for quarterdeck corporation s desqview x software i have not used dv x yet but reading the blurbs that quarterdeck sent me it sounds pretty great allows multiple dos machines the way that os does but without requiring mb of ram to get os going pre emptive multi tasking network computing a proper x windows client server application this means that dos program can be used on other x windows computers on your network and that x windows programs can be used on your dv x computer although it is not a version of unix it effectively has many of unix s features and mostly you will be able to compile unix type programs using the djgpp or gnu c compilers they advertise regularly in all of the major computing and programming magazines they also have internet support online support qdeck com pascal perret perret eicn etna ch hope that this helps anyone wanting to know phil ryan melbourne australia
comp.graphics	re looking for tseng vesa drivers hi this is my first msg to the net actually the rd copy of it dam ed vi look for the new vpic it comes with updated vesa drivers for almost every known card the vesa level is and my tseng bit has a nice affair with the driver hope it is useful bye
comp.graphics	i need to make my vga do shades i have a routine that changes the color rgb attributes on my vga adapter but it doesn t work in the mode that i need specifically hex an obscure mode of course but i need to change the zillions of colors to shade greyscale but i do not have the correct memory address for the pointer i need please someone i need the starting address or maybe somewhere i can find it thank you john kondis eapu orion oac uci edu
comp.graphics	re photoshop for windows in article apr midway uchicago edu dgf quads uchicago edu david farley writes in article c uhim jfq rot qc ca beaver rot qc ca andre boivert writes i am looking for comments from people who have used heard about photoshop for windows is it good how does it compare to the mac version is there a lot of bugs i heard the windows version needs fine tuning any comments would be greatly appreciated thank you andre boisvert beaver rot qc ca an review of both the mac and windows versions in either pc week or info world this week said that the windows version was considerably slower than the mac a more useful comparison would have been between photostyler and photoshop for windows david i don t know about that i ve used photoshop on both a dx and a quadra i d say they are roughly equal if anything the was faster both systems were running in bit color and had the same amount of ram megs i also believe the quadra had one of those photoshop accelerators
comp.graphics	re d studio v any differences with previous version in article apr hparc aus hp com doug hparc aus hp com doug parsons writes fombaron marc fombaron ufrima imag fr wrote are there significant differences between v and v thank you for helping no as i recall the only differences are in the ds set parameters some of the defaults have changed slightly i ll look when i get home and let you know but there isn t enough to actually warrant upgrading douginoz wrong the major improvements for and a are in the use of ipas routines for d studio they have increased in speed anywhere from depending on which ones you use all the yost group ipas routines that you can buy separate from the d studio package require the use of or a they are too slow with
comp.graphics	true color display in pov hallo pov renderers i ve got a bocax card now i try to get pov displaying true colors while rendering i ve tried most of the options and univesa driver but what happens isn t correct can anybody help me
comp.graphics	fractal compression hi can anybody give me book or reference title to give me a start at fractal image compression technique helps will be appreciated thanx inu n lindblat cc monash edu au inu n aurora cc monash edu au
comp.graphics	developable surface hi netters i am currently doing some investigations on developable surface can anyone familiar with this topic give me some information or sources which can allow me to find some infomation of developable surface thanks for your help abel h hkuxa hku hk
comp.graphics	re virtual reality for x on the cheap in article r v a rj fg plk af mil ridout bink plk af mil brian s ridout writes in article apr mfltd co uk sts mfltd co uk steve sherwood x writes has anyone got multiverse to work i have built it on svr mips svr s and sun sparcstation there seems to be many bugs in it the dogfight and dactyl simply do nothing after fixing a bug where a variable is defined twice in two different modules one needed setting to static else the client core dumped steve extn sts mfltd co uk uunet mfocus sts micro focus just like pariah i have no name rm rf west street living in a blaze of obscurity rum ruff splat newbury need courage to survive the day berkshire england a bort r etry i nfluence with large hammer i built it on a rs my only motif machine works fine i added some objects into dogfight so i could get used to flying this was very easy all in all cool brian the rs compiler is so forgiving i think that if you mixed cobol pascal the c compiler still wouldn t complain steve extn sts mfltd co uk uunet mfocus sts micro focus just like pariah i have no name rm rf west street living in a blaze of obscurity rum ruff splat newbury need courage to survive the day berkshire england a bort r etry i nfluence with large hammer
comp.graphics	alias phone number wanted what is the phone number for alias a toll free number is preferred if available thanks charles boesel diablo creative if pro for and con against cboesel diablo uu holonet net then what s the opposite of progress pager what else congress
comp.graphics	re postscript drawing prog in article apr informatik tu muenchen de comp graphics gnuplot comp graphics rdd uts ipp garching mpg de reinhard drube writes in article c ecnn qo mentor cc purdue edu nish cv chem purdue edu nishantha i writes could somebody let me know of a drawing utility that can be used to manipulate postscript files i am specifically interested in drawing lines boxes and the sort on postscript contour plots i have tried xfig and i am impressed by it s features however it is of no use since i cannot use postscript files as input for the programme is there a utility that converts postscript to xfig format any help would be greatly appreciated nishantha have you checked out adobe illustrator there are a few unix versions for it available depending on your platform i know of two unix versions one for mach next and for irix sgi there may be others such as for sun sparcstation but i don t know for sure ttyl charles boesel diablo creative if pro for and con against cboesel diablo uu holonet net then what s the opposite of progress pager what else congress
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace so poorly i ve been trying to figure out a way to get adobe illustrator to auto trace exactly what i see on my screen but it misses the edges of templates by as many as pixels or more resulting in images that are useless i need exact tracing not approximate i ve tried adjusting the freehand tolerances as well as autotrace tolerances but it doesn t help any suggestions charles boesel diablo creative if pro for and con against cboesel diablo uu holonet net then what s the opposite of progress pager what else congress
comp.graphics	marchin cubes hi there is there anybody who know a polygon reduction algorithm for marching cube surfaces e g the algirithm of schroeder siggraph for any hints hugs and kisses erwin o o ooo ooo erwin keeve adress peter welter platz w cologne germany dept of computergraphics phone computeranimation fax academy of media arts cologne email keeve khm uni koeln de
comp.graphics	disp i have posted disp zip to alt binaries pictures utilities you may distribute this program freely for non commercial use if no fee is gained there is no warranty the author is not responsible for any damage caused by this program important changes since version fix bugs in file management system file displaying improve file management system more user friendly fix bug in xpm version reading fix bugs in targa reading writng fix bug in gem img reading add support for pcx and gem img writing auto skip macbinary header introduction this program can let you read write and display images with different formats it also let you do some special effects rotation dithering on image its main purpose is to let you convert image among different formts include simple file management system support slide show there is no limit on image size currently this program supports bits display if you want to use hicolor or truecolor you must have vesa driver if you want to modify video driver please read section hardware requirement pc or better msdos or higher min amount of ram is m bytes maybe less memory will also work i recommend min m bytes for better performance hard disk for swapping virtual memory the following description is borrowed from djgpp supported wares up to m of extended memory expanded under vcpi up to m of disk space used for swapping supervga color mode up to x xms vdisk memory allocation strategies vcpi programs such as qemm desqview and max unsupported dpmi microsoft windows features emulator bit unix ish environment flat memory model svga graphics installation video drivers emu and go exe are borrowed from djgpp if you use western digital vga chips read readme wd this go exe is a modified version for vesa and is completely compatible with original version but some people report that this go exe is not compatible with other djgpp programs in their system if you encounter this problem don t put go exe within search path please read runme bat for how to run this program if you choose xxxxx grn as video driver add nc to environment go for example go driver x xxxxx xxxxx grn nc if you don t have x add emu x xxxxx emu to environment go for example go driver x xxxxx xxxxx grd emu x xxxxx emu notes i only test tr grn et grn and vesa grn other drivers are not tested i have modified et grn to support bits display you don t need to use vesa driver if et grn doesn t work please try vesa grn for those who want to use hicolor or truecolor display please use vesa grn except et users you can find vesa bios driver from wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos graphics godzilla cgl rmit oz au kjb mgl command line switch usage display d display initial display type s sort sort method h display type svga default hicolor truecolor sort method name ext function key f change disk drive ctrl a ctrl z change disk drive f change filename mask see match doc f change parameters f some effects on picture eg flip rotate f make directory t tag file tag group files see match doc t tag all files u untag file untag group files see match doc u untag all files ins change display type in read screen menu f m m move file s f d d delete file s r r rename file c c copy file s z z display first bytes in ascii hex and dec modes f f display disk free space page up down move one page tab change processing target arrow keys home end page up page down scroll image home left most end right most page up top most page down bottom most in screen effect menu left right arrow change display type bits s s slide show escape to terminate alt x quit program without prompting alt a reread directory escape abort function and return support format read gif gif japan mag mag japan pic pic sun raster ras jpeg jpg xbm xbm utah rle rle pbm pbm pgm pgm ppm ppm pm pm pcx pcx japan mki mki tiff tif targa tga xpm xpm mac paint mac gem img img iff ilbm lbm window bmp bmp qrt ray tracing qrt mac pict pct vis vis pds pds viking vik vicar vic fits fit usenix face fac the extensions in are standard extensions write gif sun raster jpeg xbm pbm pgm ppm pm tiff targa xpm mac paint ascii laser jet iff ilbm window bmp mac pict vis fits face pcx gem img all read write support full color bits grey scale b w dither and bits image if allowed for that format detail initialization set default display type to highest display type find allowable screen resolution for grn video driver only when you run this program you will enter read menu whthin this menu you can press any function key except f if you move or copy files you will enter write menu the write menu is much like read menu but only allow you to change directory the header line in read menu includes d xx f xx t xx d display type f number of files t number of tagged files pressing space in read menu will let you select which format to use for reading current file pressing return in read menu will let you reading current file this program will automatically determine which format this file is the procedure is first check magic number if fail check standard extension still fail report error pressing s or s in read menu will do slide show if delay time is program will wait until you hit a key except escape if any error occurs program will make a beep escape to terminate pressing ins in read menu will change display type pressing alt x in read menu will quit program without prompting once image file is successfully read you will enter screen menu within this menu f is turn on you can do special effect on image pressing return show image in graphic mode press return space or escape to return to text mode pressing tab change processing target this program allows you to do special effects on bit or bit image pressing left right arrow change display type bits pressing space save current image to file b w dither save as black white image bit grey scale save as grey image bits full color save as color image bits true color save as bit image this program will ask you some questions if you want to write image to file some questions are format dependent finally this program will prompt you a filename if you want to save file under another directory other than current directory please press space after pressing space you will enter write menu you can change directory to what you want then pressing space this program will prompt you original filename pressing return this program will prompt you selected filename filename under bar this program supports bits display this program is memory greedy if you don t have enough memory the performance is poor if you want to save bits image try gif then tiff lzw then targa then sun raster then bmp then if you want to save bits image lossless try tiff lzw or targa or ilbm or sun raster no one is better for true bits image i recommend jpeg for storing bits images even bits images not all subroutines are fully tested this document is not well written if you have any problem suggestion comment about this program please send to u bicmos ee nctu edu tw i need your suggestion to improve this program there is no anonymous ftp on this site tech information program user interface and some subroutines written by jih shin ho some subroutines are borrowed from xv and pbmplus dec tiff v and jpeg v reading writing are through public domain libraries compiled with djgpp you can get whole djgpp package from simtel or mirror sites for example wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos djgpp for thoese who want to modify video driver get grx source code from simtel or mirror sites for hicolor and truecolor bits of colors is set to bits of colors is set to xc bits of colors is set to xc acknowledgment i would like to thank the authors of xv and pbmplus for their permission to let me use their subroutines also i will thank the authors who write tiff and jpeg libraries thank dj without djgpp i can t do any thing on pc jih shin ho u bicmos ee nctu edu tw
comp.graphics	re pov file constructor for unix x in article r hl csc st james comp vuw ac nz craig humphrey comp vuw ac nz chumphre writes hi i m just getting into povray and i was wondering if there is a graphic package that outputs pov files any help would be appreciated thanks a very good modeling package i found is irit look for irit tar z however there is no converter from it s format to pov format i postet a request for such a converter in this group but got no response so i m considering to write such a program myself sebastian schmidt tu ilmenau institut f praktische informatik
comp.graphics	which video card please help i ve got a hz computer which is under warranty and my trident c video card is starting to play up surprise surprise therefore i m going to try to exchange it for a better card the big question is which video card is high quality and with an acceptable price tag on student budget thank you in advance
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed for some reason i never saw the original post on this thread but if you are looking for fast polygon routines on vga on a pc you really can t go past the mode x stuff from dr dobbs this code is all p domain as far as i know and in the original articles the routines were all presented as dumb vga routines and then optimised to modex with some interesting discussion along the way if you are interested i could find out more details of the issues in question i have them at home bernard
comp.graphics	re postscript drawing prog in b vma o diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes in article apr informatik tu muenchen de comp graphics gnuplot comp graphics rdd uts ipp garching mpg de reinhard drube writes in article c ecnn qo mentor cc purdue edu nish cv chem purdue edu nishantha i writes could somebody let me know of a drawing utility that can be used to manipulate postscript files i am specifically interested in drawing lines boxes and the sort on postscript contour plots i have tried xfig and i am impressed by it s features however it is of no use since i cannot use postscript files as input for the programme is there a utility that converts postscript to xfig format any help would be greatly appreciated nishantha have you checked out adobe illustrator there are a few unix versions for it available depending on your platform i know of two unix versions one for mach next and for irix sgi there may be others such as for sun sparcstation but i don t know for sure you can include postscript epsi files in xfig encapsulated postscript info files you can t actually edit the postscript file but you re able to draw over the postscript file there a eps to epsi converter eps epsi perl program succes ger timmens ger cv ruu nl dcv research group utrecht the netherlands tel room f fax unquestionably there is progress the average american now pays out twice as much in taxes as he formerly got in wages h l mencken
comp.graphics	any good morphing anims has anyone created any interesting animations using dmorph i seem to be unable to create anything that looks remotely realistic although this is probably due to the crappy gif s at i am using one of captain kirk and one of spock i m a bit of a trekker what are the best type of pictures to use thanks a situnayake
comp.graphics	dtp please ineed information about desk top publishe post graduate courses and if possible email address or normal mail thanks in advance
comp.graphics	re diamond stelth any good i bought the diamond stealth a few months ago it seems to be a great card especially with my multimedia presentations it runs graphics and animation as well as some near full motion video very well the only thing i can tell that it lacks is speed above colors its qualit in between and million collors un unreal but you definitly compromise speed it seems to be a great card for graphics and it comes with some great software but im not so sure about the excelerator part i used to own a paridise and it doesnt seem to be much faster than that one thing i do like is that it loads its own vesa driver from rom at startup i think because i have never had to load it for links or any other programs that require special vesa drivers at startup gromi a pd hintmatt ba ba isu edu
comp.graphics	gif aerial maps is there an ftp site for maps of the us preferably aerial photographs thanks
comp.graphics	hidden line removal program i m posting this for a friend i have an immediate need for a polygon based hidden line removal program i can deal with any input output format but i need to be able to do perspective views in any orientation and range is there a public domain hidden line program around it seems like there should be but i have not been able to locate one email replies and i will summarize thanks
comp.graphics	sphinx satellite image processing under x sphinx sphinx is a user friendly state of the art image processing and analysis package that runs across a spectrum of high performance computer platforms operating unix and the x window system it was created to meet to the daily research needs of scientists conducting climate investigations using satellite data and remote sensing techniques intuitive graphic interface sphinx features an interactive interface with pop up menus and point and click dialog boxes which makes image processing and analysis simple and fast this accessible menuing enables you to build attractive image layouts quickly while also providing you the flexibility of returning to the main menu to conduct other image analysis and processing operations image format compatibility using smart read write functions sphinx allows you to easily open and save image files in a variety of formats using bit integer or real data values sphinx also reads and writes the common tiff and gif formats as well as compresses and decompresses image formats to save disk space image analysis processing for image and pixel analysis the sphinx package includes an assortment of processing tools that perform useful statistical and mathematical filtering operations such as fourier transforms convolution product or principal component analyses an interactive interpreter for both algebraic equations and images allows the user to manipulate and combine individual data channels interactively standard fortran notation is used for formula entry and for trig onometric and transcendental functions satellite spectra orbit analysis sphinx possesses functions to simulate satellite signal sensitivity for various meteorological satellites e g goes meteosat noaa spot etc the simulations are conducted for a selection of standard atmospheric and surface conditions and instrument spectral bands a geometry model computes the solar zenith angles warping orbit simulation and d image projection easy external program interfacing sphinx allows users the flexibility to integrate externally developed software algorithms for processing and converting satellite observations sphinx exports and imports image files and image parameters to external programs using special interface functions quick quality presentation sphinx rapidly displays manipulates and enhances high resolution multispectral images and color tables using six bit x image planes and one graphics plane the package conveniently combines color images graphics and text to generate sharp digital images for articles and reports sphinx s d and d graphics editor provides complete flexibility for modifying and integrating vector graphics and analysis plots with images such as histograms and radial graphs the package supplies color and gray scale output for standard inkjet and laser printers other capabilities sphinx also performs image animation external graphics importing mosaic fitting what else software support development sphinx was developed at the laboratoire d optique atmospherique loa of the universite de lille france the package has received critical feedback and support from scientists at the french national laboratory centre national de recherche scientifique cnrs and the french space agency centre national d etudes spatiales cnes at loa sphinx undergoes continued refinement and development to meet changing research needs and advances in computer technology the package which features on line help is supported by an internet address sphinx loasil citilille fr through which questions can be answered and version updates provided without delay performance tested cnes has selected sphinx to analyze and process the satellite data collected during the upcoming adeos polder satellite mission today the sphinx package is in use at the nasa goddard space flight center and is widely used in many french laboratories including the centre de recherche en physique de l environnement ecole normale superieure laboratoire d etudes et de recherches en teledetection spatiale laboratoire de meteorologie dynamique a test version of sphinx is available at loasil citilille fr anonymous bin cd sphinx get all sphinx tar z in the test version the output files are disable however the visualisation and graphic functions are available this is sufficient to work with if you are interested in keeping sphinx send us your email and you will receive news about the package evolution the software is changing with user suggestions we will appreciate your comments
comp.graphics	re diamond stelth any good the real problem w the stealth from what i ve heard is that diamond won t tell anyone how to program their proprietary clock stuff so x under linux and bsd won t run patrick bridges patrick erc msstate edu
comp.graphics	re photoshop for windows in article r m k agate berkeley edu aron tikal ced berkeley edu aron bonar writes in article apr midway uchicago edu dgf quads uchicago edu david farley writes in article c uhim jfq rot qc ca beaver rot qc ca andre boivert writes i am looking for comments from people who have used heard about photoshop for windows is it good how does it compare to the mac version is there a lot of bugs i heard the windows version needs fine tuning any comments would be greatly appreciated thank you andre boisvert beaver rot qc ca an review of both the mac and windows versions in either pc week or info world this week said that the windows version was considerably slower than the mac a more useful comparison would have been between photostyler and photoshop for windows david i don t know about that i ve used photoshop on both a dx and a quadra i d say they are roughly equal if anything the was faster both systems were running in bit color and had the same amount of ram megs i also believe the quadra had one of those photoshop accelerators i went back and looked at the review again they claim there were significant differences in manipulating a meg test file but with smaller files the two platforms were the about the same david david farley the university of chicago library east th street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly in article b vmcbrt diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes i ve been trying to figure out a way to get adobe illustrator to auto trace exactly what i see on my screen but it misses the edges of templates by as many as pixels or more resulting in images that are useless i need exact tracing not approximate i ve tried adjusting the freehand tolerances as well as autotrace tolerances but it doesn t help any suggestions charles boesel diablo creative if pro for and con against cboesel diablo uu holonet net then what s the opposite of progress pager what else congress i ve had exactly the same problems in aldus freehand i think autotracing is one of those features that barely works but everybody feels compelled to throw it in because the other guys are doing it david farley the university of chicago library east th street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	rayshade query hi there i am very interested in rayshade i have managed to make a chessboard for rayshade unfortunately i still have to do the knight horse any ideas i am also looking for a surface for the chesspieces the board is marble unfortunately black won t work very well for the one side anybody with ideas for nice surfaces i would also like to use the image command of rayshade and the heightfield command unfortunately the manual is very vague about this and i don t have craig kolb s email address anybody with ideas because this is essential for my next venture into raytracing where should i post the finished chessboard is there anybody else using rayshade on non unix systems how fast does unix render thanks rayshade is the best program for people who loves graphics but have no artistic talent
comp.graphics	interviews graphics package hello i m trying out the c graphics package interviews besides the man pages on the classes i haven t got any documentation is there anything else around furthermore can anyone send me a small example program which shows how to use these classes together i would be very gratefull
comp.graphics	re developable surface in article c x xs khe hkuxb hku hk h hkuxa hku hk abel writes hi netters i am currently doing some investigations on developable surface can anyone familiar with this topic give me some information or sources which can allow me to find some infomation of developable surface thanks for your help abel h hkuxa hku hk a developable surface is s t you can lay it or roll it flat on the plane it may require you to give it a cut though e g a cylinder a cone a plane of course or any surface or patch having vanishing gaussian intrinsic curvature i e with singular hessian the matrix of nd derivatives for an adequate coordinate patch are developable in more technical words a developable surface is locally isometric to a plane at all points think also of the sphere or the earth which in a non developable whatever way s you cut it you will not be able to lay flat any pieces of it its intrinsic curvature is nowhere vanishing for more details on this look at any book on differential geometry which treats surfaces d manifolds e g m do carmo s book book carmo differential author do carmo manfredo p title differential geometry of curves and surfaces year publisher prentice hall note pages enjoy frederic leymarie leyfre mcrcim mcgill edu mcgill university electrical eng dept mcrcim tel university st montreal qc canada h a a fax
comp.graphics	views on isomorphic perspectives i m working upon a game using an isometric perspective similar to that used in populous basically you look into a room that looks similar to the following xxxx xxxxx xxxx xxxx x xxxx xxxx x xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx x xxxx xxxx x x xxxx xxxx x x xxxx o xxxx x xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx the good thing about this perspective is that you can look and move around in three dimensions and still maintain your peripheral vision since your viewpoint is always the same the routines can be hard coded for a particular vantage in my case wall two s rising edge has a slope of i m also using mode x x i ve run into two problems i m sure that other readers have tried this before and have perhaps formulated their own opinions the routines for drawing walls were trivial but when i ran a packed planar image through them i was dismayed by the jaggies i m now considered some anti aliasing routines speed is not really necessary is it worth the effort to have the artist draw the wall already skewed thus being assured of nice image or is this too much of a burden wall presents a problem the algorithm i used tends to overly distort the original i tried to decide on paper what pixels go where and failed has anyone come up with method for mapping a planar to crosswise sheared shape currently i take and produce line follows the slope line is directly under line line moves up a line and left pixels line is under line this fills the shape exactly without any unfilled pixels but it causes distortions has anyone come up with a better way perhaps it is necessary to simply draw the original bitmap already skewed are there any other particularly sticky problems with this perspective i was planning on having hidden plane removal by using z buffering locations are stored in x y z form for those of you who noticed the top lines of wall and wall are parallel with its bottom lines this is why there appears to be an optical illusion ie it appears to be either the inside or outside of a cube depending on your mood there are no vanishing points this simplifies the drawing code for objects which don t have to change size as they move about in the room i ve decided that this approximation is alright since small displacements at a large enough distance cause very little change in the apparent size of an object in a real perspective drawing hopefully the context of the picture ie chairs on the floor torches hanging on the walls will dispell any visual ambiguity thanks in advance for any help till next time o o v o v email pinky tamu edu sam inala v
comp.graphics	re rayshade query in article sunvax sun ac za sunvax sun ac za writes i am also looking for a surface for the chesspieces the board is marble unfortunately black won t work very well for the one side anybody with ideas for nice surfaces how about brass or silver i ve seen real chessboards that use that material where should i post the finished chessboard right here is as good a place as any can t wait to see it i use the pov raytracer is it compatible enough for your chessboard i don t know if you ve got the whole picture or not but it doesn t seem like he s running on all thrusters leonard mccoy a guess you spock that s extraordinary james t kirk brian smith besmith mosaic uncc edu
comp.graphics	re finding equally spaced points on a sphere in article trd rpi edu deweeset ptolemy rdrc rpi edu thomas e deweese writes hello i know that this has been discussed before but at the time i didn t need to teselate a sphere so if any kind soul has the code or the alg that was finally decided upon as the best as i recall it was a nice iterative subdivision meathod i would be very appreciative here is one by andrew graphics gems glassner that i got from a collegue of mine i think i fiddled with it a little bit to make it deal with whatever bizarre problem i was working on at the time but it is known to work spl spheres asg feb spl thu mar est include stdio h include math h define pi struct point struct double x y z static double radius static double xorg static double yorg static double zorg do sphere r freq x y z double r int freq double x double y double z int pole double northy southy poley double rtheta rtheta ntheta ntheta magicangle double theta thetastart thisy den t struct point node pnp struct point struct p p p p n n n n pt radius r xorg x yorg y zorg z north pole magicangle pi northy radius sin magicangle southy radius sin magicangle for pole pole pole if pole poley radius thisy northy thetastart else poley radius thisy southy thetastart for theta thetastart theta theta rtheta theta pi rtheta theta pi p x p y poley p z p x radius cos rtheta p y thisy p z radius sin rtheta p x radius cos rtheta p y thisy p z radius sin rtheta if pole make ring go the other way so normals are right pt x p x pt y p y pt z p z p x p x p y p y p z p z p x pt x p y pt y p z pt z den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t subdivide tri p p p freq now the body for theta theta theta rtheta theta pi rtheta theta pi ntheta theta pi ntheta theta pi p x radius cos rtheta p y northy p z radius sin rtheta p x radius cos rtheta p y northy p z radius sin rtheta p x radius cos ntheta p y southy p z radius sin ntheta p x radius cos ntheta p y southy p z radius sin ntheta den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t subdivide tri p p p freq subdivide tri p p p freq return define norm pt v register double r sqrt v x v x v y v y v z v z v x r v y r v z r subdivide tri p p p a struct point struct p p p int a struct point struct n n n struct point struct p p p double den t if a p x p x p x p y p y p y p z p z p z den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t p x p x p x p y p y p y p z p z p z den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t p x p x p x p y p y p y p z p z p z den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t subdivide tri p p p a subdivide tri p p p a subdivide tri p p p a subdivide tri p p p a else n x p x n y p y n z p z norm pt n n x p x n y p y n z p z norm pt n n x p x n y p y n z p z norm pt n nothing special about this poly printf f f f f f f n p x xorg p y yorg p z zorg n x n y n z printf f f f f f f n p x xorg p y yorg p z zorg n x n y n z printf f f f f f f n p x xorg p y yorg p z zorg n x n y n z return steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca my other car is a car too bumper strip seen on i
comp.graphics	re fonts in pov in article qg fc et wampyr cc uow edu au g wampyr cc uow edu au coronado emmanuel abad writes i have seen several ray traced scenes from mtv or was it rayshade with stroked fonts appearing as objects in the image the fonts chars had color depth and even textures associated with them now i was wondering is it possible to do the same in pov hi noel i ve made some attempts to write a converter that reads adobe type fonts triangulates them bevelizes them and extrudes them to result in a generic d object which could be used with pov f i the problem i m currently stuck on is that theres no algorithm which triangulates any arbitrary polygonal shape delaunay seems to be limited to convex hulls constrained delaunay may be okay but i have no code example of how to do it another way to do the bartman may be tga pov a selfmade variation of this using heightfields create a b w picture big of the text you need f i using a postscript previewer then use this as a heightfield if it is white on black the heightfield is exactly the images white parts it s still open on the backside to close it mirror it and compound it with the original example object union height field gif abp gif height field gif abp gif scale texture glass translate center rotate rotate upwards scale scale bigger and thicker translate final placement abp gif is a gif of arbitrary size containing abp black on white in times roman points o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.graphics	psygnosis cd i titles was re rumours about do in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo rchland vnet ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado writes anyway still with mhz you need sprites for a lot of tricks for making cool awesome games read psygnosis speaking of psygnosis they have licensed games to philips interative media international for cd i the following was recently posted in a message in the cd i section of the multimedia forum seventh guest has been licensed by virgin games to philips interactive media international for worldwide cd i rights were also licensed to p i m i litil divil from gremlin graphics uk and microcosm from psygnosis uk those three titles will be adapted on cd i using the full potential of the fmv cartridge meaning using the additional memory as well as the motion video capabilities those titles have been negociated in europe but will be available worldwide also lemmings have been licensed from psygnosis as well as striker soccer from rage uk i don t know when these titles will be available or when work on them even started so don t expect your cd i retailer to have them yet there was also some mention of future nintendo cd i games in an issue of the uk magazine ert mario hotel was mentioned as having levels mark although i work for philips i don t work on cd i or multimedia the above info is just provided in good faith from what i ve read and does not represent any statement from philips mark samson information technology group philips research laboratories cross oak lane redhill surrey rh ha tel my ext tel labs telex fax email seri samson prlhp unix samson prl philips co uk binary files packages prlhp
comp.graphics	re scf files help needed from article apr cx com by tlc cx com i ve got an old demo disk that i need to view it was made using rix softworks the files on the two diskette set end with scf the demo was vga resolution colors but i don t know the spatial resolution according to my colorix manual scf files are x x first problem when i try to run the demo the screen has two black bars that cut across horizontally the screen in the top third and bottom third of the screen the bars are about inch wide other than this the demo the animation part seems to be running fine second problem i can t find any graphics program that will open and display these files i have a couple of image conversion programs none mention scf files you may try vpic i think it handles the color rix files ok rob sherry sherry a cs okstate edu
comp.graphics	re d studio v any differences with previous version as i understand it the difference between d studio and is mainly in the ipas interface along with a few small bug fixes the ipas code runs a lot faster in the newest version chris johnston materials engineer nasa lewis research center internet chris sarah lerc nasa gov brookpark rd ms cleveland oh usa resistance is futile
comp.graphics	re photoshop for windows in article c uhim jfq rot qc ca beaver rot qc ca andre boivert writes i am looking for comments from people who have used heard about photoshop for windows is it good how does it compare to the mac version is there a lot of bugs i heard the windows version needs fine tuning also photoshopii is out soon has anyone got a date and any cofmments andy andrew leahy aleahy cch coventry ac uk odd frog what a piece of work is man how noble in reason how infinite in faculties in form and moving how express and admirable in action how like an angel in apprehension how like a god the beauty of the world the paragon of animals and yet to me what is the quintessence if dust man delights not me shakespeare hamlet
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of in article alice att com td alice att com tom duff writes ulrich galki toppoint de wrote does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from forty two is six times nine for very small values of six and nine sorry tom i couldn t resist
comp.graphics	graphics formats i m currently looking for information about different graphics formats especially ppm pcx bmp and perhaps gif does anyone know if there exist any files at some site that describes these formats thanks o o erik brenn email erikb idt unit no o oooo faculty of computer science telematics the norwegian institute of technology trondheim oooo not to make sense just cents
comp.graphics	re wanted info on image databases padmini srivathsa in wisconsin writes i would like references to any introductory material on image databases i d be happy to us international snail mail technical information on imaging databases to anyone who needs it if you can provide me with your address for hard copy not email we re focusing mostly on open pace oracle ingres adabas sybase and gupta regarding our imaging databases installed we have over installed and in production now most of the new ones going in are on novell lans the rs and now hp unix workstations we work with visual basic too michael willett office wang com
comp.graphics	problems grabbing a block of a starbase screen at the moment i m trying to grab a portion of a starbase screen and store it in an area of memory the data needs to be in a bit format which shouldn t be a problem as the app is running on a bit screen though i m not too fussy about the exact format i actually intend to write the data out as a tiff but that bits not the problem does anyone out there know how to grab a portion of the screen the block read call seems to grab the screen but not in bit colour whatever the screen window type i get byte per pixel thanks in advance martin martin preston m preston manchester ac uk computer graphics computer graphics unit manchester computing centre is just university of manchester a load of balls manchester u k m pl phone
comp.graphics	re xv under ms dos hi recently i found xv for ms dos in a subdirectory of gnu cc gnuish i use frequently xv on a sun spark station and i never had problems but when i start it on my computer with h option it display the help menu and when i start it with a gif file my hard disk turns or seconds and the prompt come back my computer is a little with copro mega rams tseng m running ms dos with himem sys and no emm sys i had the go exe too but no driver who run with it do somenone know the solution to run xv any help would be apprecied you probably need an x server running on top of ms dos i use desqview x but any ms dos x server should do xx x technical documentation is writing of the words xx x for of the features that only of the customers xx x actually use xx x a pc to xx x i don t have opinions i have factual interpretations the power xx x me of x xx x xx uunet rutgers mcdhup inferno tom can be found at x xx periphonics corporation x xx veterans memorial highway bohemia ny x xx x xx they pay me to write not express their opinions
comp.graphics	closed curve intersection i would like a reference to an algorithm that can detect whether one closed curve bounded by some number of bezier curves lies completely within another closed curve bounded by bezier curves thanks sean t lamont ask me about the wsi fonts zeno genetics washington edu professional collection for next lamont abstractsoft com abstract software
comp.graphics	print graph on printer this seems to be a simple problem but i just cannot solve it i wrote a c program to draw some polygons on the screen and i want to print it on my printer so i press print screen on the keyboard the problem is the printer just print out some ascii characters is there any other way to print the screen without using print screen please help
comp.graphics	is there an ftp achive for usgs terrain data is there an ftp archive for united states geological services usgs terrain data if so where charles boesel diablo creative if pro for and con against cboesel diablo uu holonet net then what s the opposite of progress pager what else congress
comp.graphics	need postscript strokeadjust info i need information on the display postscript strokeadjust feature this feature adjusts the endpoints of lines so that the displayed line looks better on low resolution devices the postscript literature explains the process to some extent they also give an example of how to emulate strokeadjust in postscript environments where it is absent the suggested emulation is to modify the coordinates of the endpoints of a line using the following formula for each coordinate new coord round old coord doing this we end up with all coordinates ending in from reading i thought that what they might actually do is new coord trunc old coord this results in all the coordinates ending in either or whichever is closer by doing some actual comparisons with display postscript i find that neither of these is what dps really uses since i like how the dps result looks better than how my stuff looks i d like to know if anyone who knows how dps does it is willing able to tell me thanks steve squeegee world std com
comp.graphics	package for fashion designer this article was probably generated by a buggy news reader
comp.graphics	packages for fashion designers hello i am looking for commercial software packages for professional fashion designers any recommendation and pointers are greatly appreciated please e mail me if you may thanks a million ge
comp.graphics	mpeg location can anyone tell me where to find a mpeg viewer either dos or windows thanks in advance alan m jackson mail ajackson cch cov ac uk liverpool football club simply the best you ll never walk alone
comp.graphics	color palette for color vga rainbow does anybody out there have or know how to calculate the rgb values required to set the color vga palette so that the colors from will give colors of the rainbow ie red orange yellow etc any help would be appreciated please email to eeerik cc newcastle edu au erik de castro lopo dept electrical computer eng uni of newcastle australia
comp.graphics	attractive drawing on the sphere s p h e r i c a l d e s i g n i n g i have made an attractive program on at computer for drawing on the sphere and pasting it of paper for children artists and education i can send an example to alt source wanted on which you can see the rotation of the sphere if you are interested children can design tesselations of the many famous regular polyhedra without serious difficaltis and print patterns to paste their spherical models moscow tel after o clock or e mail valentin vulihman
comp.graphics	attractive drawing on the sphere subscribe comp graphics quit
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article nerone apr sylvester cc utexas edu nerone ccwf cc utexas edu michael nerone writes in article quvdoinn e srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes ch concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in also it is readily observable that the current spectrum of amiga groups is already plagued with mega crossposting thus the group split would not in all likelihood bring about a more structured environment am i glad you write that i got flamed all along because i begged not to crosspost some nonsense articles the problem with crossposting is on the first poster i am aware that this posting is a crossposting too but what else should one do you never know where the interested people stay in to split up newsgroups brings even more crossposting jan holler bern switzerland good is not good enough make it better holli holler augs adsp sub org second chance holler iamexwi unibe ch fast mail cbmehq cbmswi augs holli holler cbmvax commodore com
comp.graphics	tom gaskins pexlib vs phigs programming manuals o reilly could someone explain the difference between tom gaskins two books o pexlib programming manual o phigs programming manual why would i want to buy one book vs the other book i have an running sco unix x r on my desktop a sun iv in my lab and access to a variety of other systems alliant fx cray y mp on the network mostly we would like to do d modeling visualization of rat rabbit monkey and human brain structure thanks aj alexander james annala principal investigator neuroscience image analysis network hedco neuroscience building fifth floor university of southern california university park los angeles ca
comp.graphics	re scf files help needed in article apr daimi aau dk rued daimi aau dk writes rix s files with the extension sci and scf are just a raw file with a color palette stuff deleted regards thomas do you happen to know what a sco rix file is alex kiernan akiernan falcon demon co uk
comp.graphics	help miro crystal or ati gup i m planning to buy a new vlb eisa system with a good graphic performance so far i looked at the ati gup vlb as my favorite graphics card but recently i heard something about a new card from miro it was the miro crystal s with mb and true color support up to x it costs just a little more than the ati so can t decide which one matches better my needs any technical references and performance comparisons especially from the miro card would be greatly appreciated peter e mail kohut urz unibas ch universitas basiliensis switzerland
comp.graphics	news re list or image processing systems moscow scientific inductrial association spectrum offer videoscan vision system for pc at wich include software and set of controllers software for support videoscan family program kit was developed kit includes more then different functions for image processing kit works in the interactive regime and has include help for non professional users there are next possibility input frame by any board of videoscan family read white image to from disk print image on the printer makes arithmetic with frames filter image work with gistogramme edit image include users exe modules controller vs the function of vs controller is to load tv images into pc at vs controller allows one to load a fragment of the tv frame from a field of x pixels the clock rate is mhz when loading an image with pixel in the line and mhz when loading a pixels image this provides the equal pixel size of input image in both horizontal and vertical directions the number of gray levels in any input modes is video signal capture time s controller vs the purpose of the controller is to enter the tv images into a ibm pc at or any other machine of that type the controller was created on the base of modern elements including user programmable gate arrays the controller allows to digitize a input signal with different resolutions its flexible architecture makes possible to change technical parameters instead of tv signal one can process any other analog signal including signals from slow speed scanning devices the controller has the following technical characteristics memory volume from k to mb resolution when working with standard video signal from x to x pixels resolution when working in slow input regime up to x pixels video signal capture time ms maximum size of a screen when memory volume is mb x pixels number of gray level clock rate for input up to mhz input video multiplexer input output lookup table lut possibility to realize scroll and zoom lines for external synchronization an input using external controlling signal electronic adjustment of black and white reference for analog digital converter possibility output image to the color rgb monitor one can change all listed above functions and parameters of the controller by reprogramming it image processor vs image processor vs allows to digitize and process tv signal in real time it is possible digitize tv signal with resolution and realize arithmetic and logic operation with two images processor was created on the base of modern elements including user programmable gate arrays and designed as a board for pc memory volume allows write to the frames with format it is possible to accumulate until images the processor has the following technical characteristics memory volume to mb number of the gray level input video multiplexer input output lookup table electronic adjustment for black and white adc reference image size from to possibility color and black white output possibility input from slow scan video sources
comp.graphics	renderman shaders discussion does anyone know of a site where i could ftp some renderman shaders or of a newsgroup which has discussion or information about renderman i m new to the renderman mac family and i d like to get as much info i can lay my hands on thanks andy bates andy bates
comp.graphics	re coreldraw bitmap to scodal in article r gmginn fm zephyr grace cri nz srlnjal grace cri nz writes yes i am aware coreldraw exports in scodal but if you try to export in scodal with a bitmap it will say something like cannot export if anyone out there knows a way around this i am all ears i think one not ideal solution is to use the tracing utility can t remember the name sorry included in the corel draw s w pack it can convert bitmaps to corel art format these can then be imported into a drawing rather than the bitmap result the file is completely in corel format and can be scodal ed no problem but the slight problem with this which makes the solution less than idea is that the trace utility spits out many more points than are necessary to define the shapes being traced straight lines and curves are both traced as many short segments so the scodal taking much longer to image the obvious solution is time consuming stripping out the extra points by hand using corel ouch i ve done it a few times i was just wondering if there was anything out there that just did the bitmap to scodal part a tad cheaper jeff lyall as i say if you don t mind the problems go via the route bitmap corel via trace hand trimming using corel combine with main corel pic via import scodal cheers toby toby freeman glasgow university freemant uk ac glasgow dcs
comp.graphics	pov problems with tga outputs i can t fiqure this out i have properly compiled pov on a unix machine running sunos the problem is that when i run the sample pov files and use the exact same parameters when compiling different tga outputs some of the tga s are okay and other s are unrecognizable by any software help ed edb tamsun tamu edu
comp.graphics	bit graphics i was recently talking to a possible employer mine and he made a reference to a bit graphics computer image processing system i seem to remember it being called image or something akin to that anyway he claimed it had bit color a bit alpha channel that s bits of info what could that possibly be for specifically the bit color that s trillion colors many more than the human eye can resolve is this an anti aliasing thing or is this just some magic number to make it work better with a certain processor also to settle a bet with my roommate what are sgi s flagship products i know of iris indigo and crimson but what are the other ones and which is their top of the line sadly i have access to none of them just a dec sigh eric oehler oehler picard cs wisc edu
comp.graphics	re adobe photo shop type software for unix x motif platforms we have been shipping for over one year the adobe display postscript dps on silicon graphics workstations file servers and supercomputers the adobe illustrator for silicon graphics machines was released last february adobe and sgi announced last october that photoshop will be available on sgi systems in initial release will support bit color graphics ivan bach ib sgi com disclaimer i do not speak for my employer
comp.graphics	re is there an ftp achive for usgs terrain data diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes is there an ftp archive for united states geological services usgs terrain data if so where point your gopher client at merlot welch jhu edu and select the following directories search and retrieve software search and retrieve graphics software and data and you ll see graphics online bibliography acm siggraph graphics software and data archives ftp sites search all graphics information search comp graphics faq search graphics resources software and data search pictures utilities faq graphics online bibliography acm siggraph searches and archives of bibliographic database that covers graphics literature for over a hundred years served by a gopher hole in austria graphics software and data archives ftp sites has links to over sites around the world which have software and or data for computer graphics this can be used on its own or as a companion to the searches found in this directory which will point you toward software and data at various places search all graphics information search comp graphics faq search graphics resources software and data search pictures utilities faq these searches contain a wealth of information about computer graphics data software techniques etc search all graphics information will simply search all of the information contained in searches and search comp graphics faq lets you search the faq frequently asked questions from the comp graphics newsgroup compiled by john grieggs at the jpl search graphics resources software and data lets you search the grpahics resource listing of software and data provided by nick fotis at the national technical univ of athens search pictures utilities faq lets you search the faq frequently asked questions from the alt binaries pixutils newsgroup compiled by jim howard at cadence select search all graphics information and search for usgs and you ll find out some information about usgs data availability now select graphics software and data archives ftp sites and you might find the following interesting cartographic data usgs data xerox mapgen plotgen and more usgs usgs weekly seismicity reports including maps gif usgs earth science data directory this actually is a database of available data search it for terrain could prove quite useful one other place to look is only available by anonymous ftp at the moment us geological survey maps isdres er usgs gov if you ve never heard of gopher don t worry it s free and on the net write me a note if you d like information on how to get started best of luck dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu johns hopkins university
comp.graphics	advice sought turning font outlines into renderable polygons i am seeking some alternate solutions on how to turn a postscript type or truetype font outline into polygons that can be subsequently scan converted by a d scanline renderer i have been studying the problem of font conversion for a few years but have never had the need to implement such a system well i now have the opportunity to write some font rendering software so i would like to have some of my questions answered before i jump into the deep end the main problem i face is how to use the even odd or non winding rules to turn the outlines into a single outline polygon my renderer can handle complex polygons so there is no need to reduce the polygons to simple polygons for example in the letter o there are two outlines the outside outline which is clockwise truetype font the inside outline which is counterclockwise one common solution used by a number of rendering packages is to simply connect the inner outline to the outer outline at the point where the two outlines are closest this is equivalent to descibing a polygon with holes the renderer will then make the appropriate hole since the interior polygon edges are in the opposite direction to the outside edges i do not want to use this simplistic system since it will not handle all outline fonts properly it is not a simple matter to connect the outer outline to the inner outline for some fancy fonts it does not properly handle the even odd or non winding rules from my research over the years the proper solution is to use a trapezoid decomposition algorithm to scan convert the outlines into trapezoids as is done by the postscript and truetype font rasterizers these trapezoidal polygons can then be easily and properly rendered by the d scanline renderer my question is are there any better solutions to turning the outlines into polgyons other than the trapezoid decomposer i am not fond of this solution since it creates excess number of polygons another question for those in the know what is the best algorithm to create bevelled and or offset curves for font outlines i have a dozen papers on these subjects but i can t tell which method is the best to implement thanks for any pointers rob lansdale robert lansdale dynamic graphics project internet lansd dgp toronto edu computer systems research institute uucp uunet dgp toronto edu lansd university of toronto bitnet lansd dgp utoronto toronto ontario m s a canada
comp.graphics	looking for usa map does anyone out there have or know of line drawing usa map thanks very much in advance hoi yoo engr ucf edu
comp.graphics	d files what are they i was chaining around in the anonymous ftp world looking for d studio meshes and other interesting graphical stuff for the program and found a few files with the extension d my ds v doesn t know this type of file so what are they and of course the perennial where are some meshes fli files etc out there i would have thought that someone would have collected a few and put them somewhere but alas i am without this knowledge mucho appreciato douginoz
comp.graphics	ftp for targa i am looking for software to run on my brand new targa if anyone knows of any sites which have useful stuff or if you have any yourself you want to give let me know via mail thanks a lot yayayay jamie ddsw mcs com
comp.graphics	mgr naplps gui bbs frontends hi all i am looking into methods i can use to turn my linux based bbs into a full color graphical bbs that supports pc mac linux and amiga callers originally i was inspired by the naplps graphics standard a summary of which hit this group about weeks ago following up on software availability of naplps supporting software i find that most terminal programs are commercial the only resonable shareware one being pp which runs soley on msdos machines leaving mac and amiga users to buy full commercial software if they want to try out the bbs i know i wouldn t next most interesting possibility is to port mgr to pc mac amiga i know there is an old version of a mac port on bellcore com that doesn t work under system but i can t seem to find the source anywhere to see if i can patch it is there a color version of mgr for linux i know there was an alpha version of the libs out last year but i misplaced it does anyone on this group know if mgr as been ported to pc or amiga i can t seem to send a message to the mgr channel without it bouncing does anyone have any other suggestions for a linux based gui bbs thanks in advan
comp.graphics	gaspra animation quicktime gaspra animation march the gaspra animation is now available at the ames space archives in quicktime format the animation was formed from images taken by the galileo spaecraft shortly before its closest approach to the asteroid in october the animation is available using anonymous ftp to ftp ames arc nasa gov user anonymous cd pub space animation files gaspra qt ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos it s kind of fun to do pasadena ca the impossible walt disney
comp.graphics	re vga scrolling hi if you want to have soft scrolling on your vga you have to change some intern registers of the crtc but it is a little bit difficult to explain so i would suggest you take a look at the programming of the ega vga adapter by addison wesley you will find all useful descriptions for every available vga register boris dr bobo ponton hanse de boris pruessmann
comp.graphics	q tiff description sorry for wasting your time with a probably simple question but i m not an computer graphic expert i want to read tiff files with a pascal program the problem is that the files i want to read are in compressed form code e g huffman all books articles i found describe only the plain uncompressed format i don t know where to get the original tiff specification furthermore i haven t any access to a realy complete library can anybody direct me to a good book or even better to an specification available via ftp thanks in advance thomas wolf ps direct mail would be prefered
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly in article b vmcbrt diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes yeah corel draw and wordperfect presentations pretty limited here too since there s no not really such thing as a decent raster to vector conversion program this tracing technique is about it simple stuff like b w logos etc do pretty well while more complicated stuff goes haywire i suspect even though i don t write code that a good bitmapped to vector conversion program would probably be as big as most of these application softwares we re using but even so how come one hasn t been written to my knowledge i mean even hijaak one of the commercial industry standards of file conversion hasn t attempted it yet mac mcdougald any opinions expressed herein the photography center are not necessarily actually univ of tenn knoxville are almost certainly not those mac utkvx utk edu of the university of tennessee mac utkvx bitnet things are more like they are now fax than they ve ever been before
comp.graphics	re tom gaskins pexlib vs phigs programming manuals o reilly merlin neuro usc edu merlin writes could someone explain the difference between tom gaskins two books o pexlib programming manual o phigs programming manual why would i want to buy one book vs the other book i have an running sco unix x r on my desktop a sun iv in my lab and access to a variety of other systems alliant fx cray y mp on the network mostly we would like to do d modeling visualization of rat rabbit monkey and human brain structure rather than decide which book you want to buy you need to decide which programming interface you want to use then buy the appropriate book i wrote an article for the x resource which discusses the differences between phigs and pexlib it will appear in issue which should be out pretty soon but here s a brief summary phigs is a graphics api which was designed to be portable to many devices most implementations support the x window system and take advantage of a d extension to x called pex pexlib is a slightly lower level api which was designed to efficiently support the pex extension to x some advantages of using pexlib integrates with xlib xt motif etc better than phigs provides immediate mode capabilities is free of policy pex supports phigs but is currently being extended to support features not found in phigs like texture mapping anti aliasing pexlib will give you access to all of these features some advantages of using phigs support for multiple devices not just x based ones support for archiving metafiles hardcopy output phigs has predefined input devices to make input easier phigs can handle exposure events and resizing for you phigs can help you with colormap selection creation if you re working strictly in x and don t care about things like archiving i would go with pexlib either way you will find that both api s have a lot in common ralph mor mit x consortium
comp.graphics	re mpeg location alan jackson ajackson cch coventry ac uk wrote can anyone tell me where to find a mpeg viewer either dos or windows thanks in advance alan m jackson mail ajackson cch cov ac uk liverpool football club simply the best you ll never walk alone you can find a windows mpeg viewer at wuarchive wustl edu in the mirrors msdos windows directory tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split chris herringshaw tdawson engin umich edu wrote concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon what he said tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article lot rapnbh h viamar uucp rutgers viamar kmembry writes read issue of wired magazine it has a long article on the hype of do i ve noticed that every article talks with the designers and how great it is but never show any pictures of the output or at least pictures that one can understand gamepro magazine published pictures a few months ago and computer chronicles a program that is syndicated to public tv stations around the nation spent several minutes on it when it was shown at ces it was very impressive what it can do in real time john munsch p s don t take that to mean that i believe that the system is going to take over the world or something just that it clearly has a lot more horsepower than any of the vis cd i sega cd or turbo duo crowd
comp.graphics	re tiff anything in article apr spartan ac brocku ca tmc spartan ac brocku ca tim ciceran writes there is a program called graphic workshop you can ftp from wuarchive the file is in the msdos graphics directory and is called grfwk t zip this program should od everthing you need tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca thanks it did work and it is just what i needed thanks joshuaf
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split tmc spartan ac brocku ca tim ciceran writes chris herringshaw tdawson engin umich edu wrote concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon what he said ditto here too tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca joe noble pogo den mmc com all the beauty of a dying vulture the smile of the truly stupid
comp.graphics	loosing color hi guys i am scanning in a color image and it looks fine on the screen when i converted it into pcx bmp gif files so as to get it into ms windows the colors got much lighter for example the yellows became white any ideas thanks dan csc phx vaxc hofstra edu
comp.graphics	color problem i am scanning in a color image and it looks fine on the screen when i converted it into pcx bmp gif files so as to get it into ms windows the colors got much lighter for example the yellows became white any ideas thanks dan csc phx vaxc hofstra edu
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly a shareware graphics program called pman has a filter that makes a picture look like a hand drawing this picture could probably be converted into vector format much easier because it is all lines with corel trace etc
comp.graphics	pov ray problem please help hello i ve recently had povray draw about sample files the problem is that i accidently erased the command in my povray def that made the image a targas file so now the files are the dump format how do i fix these files with out having to re trace them by fix i mean turn them into targas thanks in advance jerry jerry m lineberry internet lineber lonestar utsa edu or compuserve
comp.graphics	scip fi fiction set in comp science programming environs scip fi ction set in c sci programming environs list by ian feldman written by book title publisher year pp v isbn john brunner shockwave rider ray ballantine cracking the net to free information for the common good pat cadigan mindplayers an absolute must have bruce sterling pat cadigan synners bantam virtual reality orson scott card lost boys harper collins programmer and family encounters strange events in north carolina denise danks frame grabber st martin s hrdb gbp computer illiterate journalix tracks down murderer via bbs toni dwiggins interrupt a techno mystery set in silicon valley michael frayn the tin men fontana inspired lunacy but out of print david gerrold when harlie was one release bantam william gibson count zero computers as gods part of a trilogy william gibson mona lisa overdrive virtual reality william gibson burning chrome cyberpunk short stories william gibson neuromancer industrial espionage author guilty of inventing the cyberpunk genre james hogan the genesis machine del ray james hogan thrice upon a time time travel for information james hogan the two faces of tomorrow del ray ultimate test of ai os by letting it run a spacelab amok stanislaw lem his master s voice failed attempt to decode et message tom maddox halo remarkable sf of robots artificial intelligence george rr martin nightflyers tor books r a macavoy tea with the black dragon mystery around a computer fraud situation computing bits ring true vonda n mcintyre steelcollar worker in analog nov blue collar vr marge piercy body of glass penguin pp data piracy review finger books body of glass danny orthanc cs su oz au david pogue hard drive diamond pp x programmer dies in accident leaves no documentation behind software firms fight for market share with virii right out of the pages of macworld steve brock richard powers the gold bug variations morrow famous molecular scientist ponders on the why of love life in edp dept paul preuss human error nanotech computer infects brain damaged kid thomas j ryan the adolescence of p ace runaway ai experiment takes over mainframes wrecks havoc bruce sterling the difference engine with w gibson bantam finger books the difference engine danny orthanc cs su oz au cliff stoll the cuckoo s egg non fiction but reads like one review ftp garbo uwasa fi mac tidbits tb mar etx tom t thomas me smart computers vernor vinge across realtime baen books several titles vernor vinge tatja grimm s world baen books soon available vernor vinge the witling baen books as millennium vernor vinge threats and other promises baen books books in uk vernor vinge true names other dangers baen books vernor vinge a fire upon the deep tor books p essentially about the future of the internet john varley press enter short story gruesome but good ed yourdon silent witness computer crime caper story gumshoe has to explain intricacies of computer os to girlfriend herbert w franke das zentrum der milchstrasse the center of the galaxy herbert w franke letzte programmierer the last programmer i do not mean frank herbert emil zopfi computer fuer nacht limmat verlag switzerland emil zopfi jede minute kostet franken last in german last set in the commercial computing world of the early s current version of this list via finger scip fi danny orthanc cs su oz au compiled mail s additions comments updates ianf random se statistical breakdown scip fiction nominations title author books nominated the adolescence of p ryan vinge titles neuromancer gibson gibson titles true names and other dangers vinge ryan the adolescence shockwave rider brunner brunner shockwave rider when h a r l i e was one gerrold gerrold when h a r l i e a fire upon the deep vinge hogan titles threats and other promises vinge lem fiasco hmv solar total nominations authors female sent in by readers contributions by unsorted fifo from sbrock teal csn org steve brock from john lacey johnl cs indiana edu from malloy nprdc navy mil sean malloy from thom kevin gillespie thom silver ucs indiana edu from paul christopher workman pw l andrew cmu edu from kellys code code com kelly sorensen from whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes from north tj cc curtin edu au tim north from loreti fnal fnal gov maurizio loreti from stephen hart stephenh cs mun ca from duane f marble dmarble magnus acs ohio state edu from matthias neeracher neeri iis ee ethz ch from wolfram wagner ww mpi sb mpg de from webb tsavo hks com peter webb from setzer ssd comm mot com thomas setzer from kevles acf nyu edu beth kevles from dp world std com jeff delpapa from rsquires cyclops eece unm edu roger squires from hartman ulogic com richard hartman from vernor vinge vinge saturn sdsu edu from paul lebeau plebeau cix compulink co uk from lawrence rounds ljr beach cis ufl edu from phydeaux cumc cornell edu david weingart from chgs vaxa strath ac uk by learning courtesy from rowan fairgrove rowanf cache crc ricoh com from peterc suite sw oz au sw oz au peter chubb x from gara pruesse gara cs toronto edu from russell alpha ersys edmonton ab ca russell schulz from ahm spatula rent com andreas meyer from jon cs washington edu jon jacky from eugene nas nasa gov eugene n miya from a m mair chgs vaxb strathclyde ac uk from mengel dcdmwm fnal gov marc mengel from roger scowen rss seg npl co uk from kevino clbooks com kevin oster system administrator from chavey cs wisc edu darrah chavey from vonda mcintyre mcintyre cpac washington edu from bruce sterling bruces well sf ca us from scott thomas yabiku yabi midway uchicago edu from thomas adshead uad dircon co uk from paul andrews compuserve com mucho thanks to all ian the other internet worm tm feldman ianf random se
comp.graphics	re interviews graphics package rene s dutch student renes ecpdsharmony cern ch wrote i m trying out the c graphics package interviews besides the man pages on the classes i haven t got any documentation is there anything else around furthermore can anyone send me a small example program which shows how to use these classes together i would be very gratefull you might want to try comp windows interviews
comp.graphics	re fractal compression in article inu n lindblat cc monash edu au inu n lindblat cc monash edu au i rachmat writes hi can anybody give me book or reference title to give me a start at fractal image compression technique helps will be appreciated thanx for better worse the source on this on is michael barnsley his article in the science of fractal images peitgen et al is a fair to middling intro barnsley s book fractals everywhere is a more thorough treatment the book covers iterated function systems in general and their application to image compression is clear from the text dr memory jbulf kpc com
comp.graphics	graphics needed i m looking for graphics clipart bmp gif of anything relating to ophthalmology i know it s a weird request anything such as eyeglasses contact lenses eyes would be greatly appreciated thanks
comp.graphics	re jpeg file format peterbak microsoft com peter bako writes where could i find a description of the jpg file format specifically i need to know where in a jpg file i can find the height and width of the image and perhaps even the number of colors being used any suggestions peter try ftp uu net in graphics jpeg chun hung lin l t r csie ntu edu tw communication multimedia lab dept of comp sci info eng national taiwan university taipei taiwan r o c
comp.graphics	easy to translate jpeg code does anyone out there have any jpeg decompression code in pretty much any language that i can read and understand i have trouble understanding the jpeg group s code that i got from an ftp site if any one can send me some good code i will appreciate it a lot thanks stuart denman stusoft u washington edu
comp.graphics	re d files what are they doug hparc aus hp com doug parsons writes i was chaining around in the anonymous ftp world looking for d studio meshes and other interesting graphical stuff for the program and found a few files with the extension d my ds v doesn t know this type of file so what are they they are d object files for cad d a program written by tom hudson for the atari st computers don t know much more about them except that they are stored with the points first then the surfaces are next and are made by listing point numbers that make up the triangle surface then there s a header that describes coloring lighting etc don t know much more than this hope this helps stuart denman stusoft u washington edu
comp.graphics	gif to bmp to saz hook corp mot com sz does anybody know of a program that converts gif files to bmp files sz and if so where can i ftp it from any help would be greatly sz appreciated sure a great shareware program is graphic workshop the newest version is although i don t know where you can ftp it from it also converts to about other formats and does many other things r c v t ell r deluxe sa my address eric vitiello tfd coplex com
comp.graphics	re need a viewer for gl files in article qu i kh dux dundee ac uk dwestner cardhu mcs dundee ac uk dominik westner writes hi the subject says it all is there a pd viewer for gl files for x thanks dominik dominik have you tried xgrasp it s out there on several ftp sites not sure which but archie can find it i m sure it works ok but it lacks an interface jason weiler weilej rpi edu
comp.graphics	ds where did all the texture rules go hi i ve noticed that if you only save a model with all your mapping planes positioned carefully to a ds file that when you reload it after restarting ds they are given a default position and orientation but if you save to a prj file their positions orientation are preserved does anyone know why this information is not stored in the ds file nothing is explicitly said in the manual about saving texture rules in the prj file i d like to be able to read the texture rule information does anyone have the format for the prj file is the cel file format available from somewhere rych rycharde hawkes email rych festival ed ac uk virtual environment laboratory dept of psychology tel univ of edinburgh fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is kermit available for windows from article a fm b w w vicuna ocunix on ca by steve frampton frampton vicuna ocunix on ca i was wondering is the kermit package the actual package not a yes in the usual ftp sites yek chong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win storm pc anyone have any info on the video sound card from sigma designs it is called win storm pc they also have another card called the legend lx any info would be appreciated incuding performance pricing and availability thanks srini
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win doublespace in article hpwala wal hp com chrisa hpwarr hp com chris almy writes doublespace although i do not trust it for my hard disks sounds great for floppies the thouoght of having to mount the disk is anoying but something i can deal with the problem arises when under windows is there a way to mount and unmount while under windows or is this part of the upgrades soon to be available from other vendors chris i can t see why you would not trust it because it is safer than any previous compression programs it integrates into the kernal and makes it nearly impossible to delete
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ms mouse driver does anyone have the documentation for the ms mouse driver i got it when i got windows but my windows manual does not come with the documentation in particular i need to know how to turn it off and how to speed it up outside windows the greater sensitivity is needed so i can play various games esp x wing carlos g niederstrasser only two things are infinite princeton planetary society the universe and human stupidity and i m not sure about the former einstein carlosn phoenix princeton edu space phoenix princeton edu ad astra per ardua nostra
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win icon help please i have win and downloaded several icons and bmp s but i can t figure out how to change the wallpaper or use the icons any help would be appreciated thanx brando ps please e mail me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	is smartdrv exe causing bad sectors on my hd i am having something very unusual happen first some background on my system i have a mitsubishi meg hard drive and am running smartdrv the version that comes with windows on it i rarely use windows i use a program called disk technician gold v to do diagnostics live time on my hard drive it works by having a device driver detect whenever more than one read is necessary for a file or if there is anything else is wrong with it and minor problems are fully checked out upon rebooting my hard drive is notorious for bad sectors i usually end up with new bad sectors a week here s what happened i ran a program and dtg broke in with an emergency warning and recommended i reboot it gave me this message twice before the program was fully loaded i exited the program and did just this dtg went through its bootup process examining for new errors etc and a screen popped up and said something about sectors for a brief period of time i then went back to the program executed it again and the exact same error was detected i rebooted and tried again and the same error happened again so i removed dtg from memory and went to the program to see if i could detect anything wrong sure enough there was a number of read attempts so i rebooted and reloaded dtg but removed the cache i executed the program no read errors either audible or detected by dtg i quit the program loaded the cache and ran the program again the errors were detected ok so the errors are there and dtg detects but doesn t fix them when the cache is loaded when the cache is not loaded there are no errors so to see if the cache was interfering with any other files i went into xtree gold and tagged all files and searched them for a random string in other words i wanted the program to completely read every file on my hard drive before i got through the c s dtg had detected at least six errors and recommended i reboot does anybody have any idea why smartdrv is causing misreads on my hard drive oh there are exactly two misreads per file and in about every files are affected i originally posted this message to disk technician corp s system but i figured someone out in netland may know enough about smartdrv to help me out internet jdriver netlink cts com john driver uucp ryptyde netlink jdriver netlink online communications public access in san diego ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ms windows access for the blind in apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes at the micro oft display at fose there were a few computers running windows and win apps for the blind i think didn t pay much attention to it but it was there it seems that a particular program designed for blind people is more important than trying to interface windows with a way for blind people to use it if someone made a voice recognition multimedia sound oriented program it would probably been more effective i don t know what the original purpose of interfacing windows was for the person who posted the question though kirk membry our age is the age of industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why i m not using dos anymore i ve been running dos for about a month i was generally impressed with the improvements the multiple boot configurations were great the new commands were nice and doublespace worked fine twice as slow for large data transfers twice as fast for small with smartdrv until now this morning at am while i was working on my research paper i had to reboot a hung dos program that did no disk i o from within windows when my machine finished rebooting i found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted i cannot afford problems like this i m returning to dos mark p s i ve also noticed bad sector errors from doublespace where none should exist
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with changing startup logo hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote to crosspost all bs for a vga card these are the correct files but you can t just copy them bs back and expect it to work you have to create a new win com file try bs the command you will have to worry about what directories each file is in bs since i don t know your setup bs copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com bs i grabbed this from supercharging windows by judd robbins great book bs this is also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup bs screen an rle file is just a specially compressed bmp file brad what is the procedure used to specially compress the bmp file i would love to use some of my bmp files i have created as a logo screen thanks chris origin chris doelle f n z fidonet org
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	where to get ati card video drivers fonts does anyone know where i can ftp or somehow else acquire the latest video drivers fonts for an ati svga adapter the only floppy i have is for windows does anyone know if ati is still in business thanks farley access digex com charles u farley average iq of calgary board of ed employee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	truetype oem font with line drawing characters etc wanted title says it all i m in need of a truetype oem character set font ie one that contains the line drawing and other characters in the pc character set similar to those you get when running a text mode application if anyone could point me at such a thing i d be grateful the only oem fonts included with windows are not truetype regards colin manning
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo in article rgtba gtn access digex net farley access digex com charles u farley writes i know this is probably a faq but i installed the s w for my ati graphics card and it bashed my windows logo files when i start windows now it has the logo instead of the logo i thought the files that controlled this were windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo i restored these files but it didn t change the logo anyone know what the correct files are i believe you have the correct files i think what you ll have to do is go back into setup and choose change video adapter or whatever it is called then the trick is choose the same adaptor you currently have what setup does is it actually changes the file win com whenever you go into it and change the video hardware selection it incorporates the contents of vgalogo rle into win com when you do this this trick can also be used to change the startup logo into whatever you want it to be sig alert dbstrutt acs ucalgary ca end sig alert
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re document of rtf in article mar worak kaist ac kr tjyu eve kaist ac kr yu taijung writes does anybody have document of rtf file or know where i can get it thanks in advance i got one from microsoft tech support sterling g bjorndahl bjorndahl augustana ab ca or bjorndahl camrose uucp augustana university college camrose alberta canada
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winbench help graphics comparison in article c zogd c news udel edu swyatt bach udel edu stephen l wyatt writes i have a question about winbench pc labs thing i have a and a ahead b k card and got these results windows vga driver million ahead b driver winmarks windows svga driver million winmarks i was thinking about upgrading to a diamond x card i read it had about million winmark obviously this is much much greater but is this in color mode or what is this a good card street price is about on my dx mhz mb ram winbench x v m v m v v richard mayston maystonr grace cri nz
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re does dos defragment geoffrey s elbo writes yes and it is the fastest defrag i ve ever watched it did a mb hard disk in minutes i found the ms defrag looks very much like norton speedisk is it just a strip down version of the later i have both norton speedisk and backup so i was wondering if i need to install ms backup richard
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows gripe there s one thing about windows that really frosts me i have mb of ram installed in my system i use a mb mb under windows disk cache and a mb permanent swap file while i can never fill the memory up i still have problems sometimes because i run out of gdi resources what gives i think windows could manage these resources a little better are you using windows or if you re still on devotes about twice as much memory to these and runs out much less frequently if you might use one of the resource monitors such as the one that comes with the windows resource kit or one of the many shareware ones available to see which programs are hogging the resources every icon internal graphics brush etc in every program running uses a certain amount of this limited memory area also some don t give it back when they re finished lamont downs downs nevada edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winbench jorge erex east sun com jorge lach sun bos hardware writes is there any ftp site that carries winbench results for different graphics cards in excel xls format what is the latest version of winbench and how do they differ is the source available and has anybody try to port it to x window at least in a way that will make comparisons possible on ftp cica indiana edu in pub pc win misc winadv zip is a writeup by steve gibson of infoworld with winbench and a number of other benchmark results for nine isa and four vlb video cards this is a very current upload and is likely to have any card you re currently giving serious consideration not in xls format latest version of winbench that i know of is ver i believe they try to maintain the same rating scale between versions and new versions are released to defeat the lastest coding tricks put in by driver programmers to beat the benchmarks don t know on the last one al devilbiss al col hp com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re norton desktop for windows in article apr exu ericsson se ebuwoo ebu ericsson se james woo writes hi i wonder if anyone has had a chance try out norton desktop for windows version yet i understand the upgrade cost from to is about but i have no idea what the new version has i got the offer to upgrade this weekend it s shipping and handling the s h seem way too steep for just a couple of disks sounds like ripoff city can this purchased at vendors bill volz chevron petroleum technology co earth model interpretation analysis division p o box la habra ca phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re does dos defragment in article c h m p news cso uiuc edu rhc uxa cso uiuc edu richard writes geoffrey s elbo writes yes and it is the fastest defrag i ve ever watched it did a mb hard disk in minutes i found the ms defrag looks very much like norton speedisk is it just a strip down version of the later i have both norton speedisk and backup so i was wondering if i need to install ms backup richard yes defragger is come from norton if you have norton utility don t bother
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re pc geos windows os and unix x in sehari vincent iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes with my limited knowladge about the pc geos i came out with following comparison pc geos windows os unix x can run win programs nop yap yap nop novell is at least demoing windows apps running under unixware can run unix nop i have not nop yap heard of it try mks mks others esp emx note here the mks toolkit for dos windows os gives you a good suite of standard unix utilities there are other similar systems from other vendors as well the emx system for os gives you most of the standard unix system calls for recompiling your unix programs under os not quite the same thing as actually running unix programs directly in either case but emx makes os almost as compatible with unix systems as many unix systems are with each other and best of all emx is free there is a similar system go for dos but it doesn t work with windows as far as i know price free s a good one costs avaliable on ext card too should add in the cost for dos with both geos and windows neither of which is a standalone os at this point neither os nor unix requires dos btw two of the best unices i ve seen for the pee cee are unixware for the personal edition and linux free so i don t agree that a good one costs and if you really want to check out the various options available to you you should also look into desqview and desqview x cheers chris waters the insane don t judy s in the bedroom xtifr netcom com need disclaimers inventing situations d byrne
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	comments on xtree for windows i am looking for comments on xtree pro for windows i am thinking of buying the product but i have not even seen it yet thank you shane holland holland ug cs dal ca holland ug cs dal ca maurack ac dal ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is microsoft windows really and ope all icons in program manager are aliases is that explicit enough apparently not many people complain about the confusion that results from the filemanager progman split it s just a basic flaw besides what about the control panel icons where are all those little files
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is microsoft windows really and operating system well you may think that but you are wrong ah the joys of networking i just hope that you forgot the if you don t like the file manager don t use it i don t i use ndw i like the more modular nature of windoze if you like things to be modular i think you would love system instead of adding a line to your autoexec bat you just drop the icon into the extensions folder just because one has had ignorance sold to one by the evil fruit empire one is not forbidden to learn about one s file system below the level of the gui i m still working on that one
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	sound blaster ver under windows article crossposted from comp speech comp sys ibm pc soundcard comp os linux author was mario lauretti posted on mon apr gmt i have a sound blaster ver when i try to install driver ver driver that comes with window it tell me to upgrade my card first now i have found new drivers from creative labs but i have problems installing it after removing the vsbd old version that come in windows after installing creative sound blaster midi synthesizer i try to install creative sound blaster wave but when i am in the menu add unlisted or updated driver and double click on this driver i have this error driver error cannot load creative sound blaster wave and midi driver the driver file may be missing try installing the driver again or contact your system administrator yes yes yes i have read the readme st and try every thing can somebody help me mario laureti internet laurm tohi dmi usherb ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows gripe in article ppmvf qnh bigboote wpi edu bigal wpi wpi edu nathan charles crowell writes hi there there s one thing about windows that really frosts me i have mb of ram installed in my system i use a mb mb under windows disk cache and a mb permanent swap file while i can never fill the memory up i still have problems sometimes because i run out of gdi resources what gives i think windows could manage these resources a little better does anyone have any input on how to conserve these resources so that i can avoid this problem nate nathan c crowell dept of mechanical engineering acrl worcester polytechnic institute e mail bigal wpi wpi edu costing the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars nathan win has a fixed limit of k gdi memory regardless of physical ram installed this is twice that of win but not nearly robust enough for many developers and power users using amish launch as your shell you can reduce gdi memory usage by as much as over progman ndw dashboard and other graphical type icon based and other shells also nesting and full hot key global support is offered something no other shells have at this time ted matsumura president amish software inc wq
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm or truetype which to choose in article c tdgt mqq csn org rjn teal csn org wrote csd keele ac uk c m yearsley writes i ve just bought a pc which came with a bundle of lotus stuff including adobe type manager version as a newcomer to windows i m confused about which i should be using atm or truetype if you are going to stay with atm be sure to upgrade to which replaces who knows how old is is as fast as tt and if you disable the small screen fonts atm does better screen rendering at the smaller point sizes not true both type and tt fonts can be of excellent quality and poor quality at any size it all depends on the font s maker and the complexity of the glyphs related to the size and resolution at which they are viewed probably the reason for your opinion experience that tt is inferior is because most tt fonts on the market today have been converted from type outlines to tt either by the font vendor or end users using fontographer or fontmonger instead of the tt fonts being hand hinted to take advantage of the tt hinting language at best these converted tt fonts will be on a par with the type font of its orgin truetype is a much richer and more robust hinting language than type the hinting of diagonals for instance which tt does and type cannot if you check out the windows core fonts times arial courier symbol wingdings you ll see what can be done with tt there are other fonts out there that have been hand hinted and not just converted some of the microsoft tt font pack fonts are hinted very well you can use both tt and atm fonts at the same time if you like atm type fonts tend to be of higher quality and be more complete in terms of foreign characters again not true the characters in a tt or type font depend on the maker if someone converts a type font to tt they ll only get the characters in the font of orgin tt allows for much more flexibility in this area as well you can have thousands of glyphs in a tt font file mac ps windows unicode char set and use the characters appropriate for the particular platform you are running the font on for instance all or our fontpack tt fonts have the mac windows char set in them the metrics of the fonts are such that if the font is brought over to the mac the user will have access to the full mac char set regards a east harmony road bob niland suite internet rjn csn org fort collins co compuserve hope this clears up some of the confusion feel free to contact me if anyone would like more info regards dave glenn program manager microsoft tt font stuff davidgl microsoft com compuserve
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re does dos defragment in article apr cs brown edu ksl engin nosubdomain nodomain kiseok lee writes from ksl engin nosubdomain nodomain kiseok lee subject re does dos defragment date tue apr gmt in article c h m p news cso uiuc edu rhc uxa cso uiuc edu richard writes geoffrey s elbo writes yes and it is the fastest defrag i ve ever watched it did a mb hard disk in minutes i found the ms defrag looks very much like norton speedisk is it just a strip down version of the later i have both norton speedisk and backup so i was wondering if i need to install ms backup richard yes defragger is come from norton if you have norton utility don t bother don t bother if you have cpbackup or fastback they all offer options not available in the stripped down ms version from cps examples no proprietary format to save space probably no direct dma access and no tape drive you need ms defrag if you use doublespace to work on the compressed volume
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re pc geos windows os and unix x in article sehari vincent iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes with my limited knowladge about the pc geos i came out with following comparison pc geos windows os unix x can run dos programs yes yes yes yes needed add lines deleted price free s a good one costs avaliable on ext card too c compiler don t think so yap yap yap c no yap yap yap fortran no yap yap yap debuger yap yap yap min to run dos m mb hard you guys and gals add to this list so we do not throw our many down the tubes with highest regards babak sehari this list appears to imply that ms windows that has a cost listed above at comes with a c compiler c and fortran it does not of course these are expensive add ons that drive the price way beyond i don t know if the same applies to os as far as unix is concerned there is a free unix linux that has cc c fortran f c xwindows and many other features besides with a large number of utilities that can be optionally added and there is also a free bsd i believe both these unix s are quite robust you can check out comp os linux if you don t want to throw our many down the tubes you ve got to break that list down a little more roderick campbell department of physics memorial university of newfoundland st john s nf canada internet rcampbel weejordy physics mun ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows on a ramdrive help f langleyrh ccsvax sfasu edu writes stuff del d for bandwidth s sake why sigh if you don t have more than mbs of memory using a ramdrive with windows is a waste of memory windows will access upto mb ram better as memory as to why what you did didn t work it is because driveletters and paths are stored inside the group pif ini files all of the sudden things went from drive c to drive e however if you wanted to copy an application up to the ramdrive and re setup it up that should work normally but as previously stated this will only hurt things unless you ve got more than mbs of ram and are using whats above as the ramdrive i personally have mb s of ram and run a mb ramdrive with a great deal of success however if you are looking to speed up windows the three things i ve noted that work the best are a graphics accellerator card a co processor even an emulator helps some other disk cache besides smartdrive i ve tried several and lightning for windows and norton cache give me major headaches as well i think the purpose the original poster was trying to serve is to avoid the significant amount of disk access that windows does on startup it s like it s trying to it s bit in wearing the damn drive out i estimate it s only reading a mb of programs data but from the performance the drive gives it sounds like they are scattered all over the drive my drive is however regularily compressed what is it that takes so much fuss perhaps if ms would take the trouble to optimize this startup process less people would be wanting to find a solution themselves
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re pc geos windows os and unix x in article c he i q news ucs mun ca rcampbel weejordy physics mun ca roderick campbell writes there is a free unix linux that has cc c fortran f c xwindows and many other features besides with a large number of utilities that can be optionally added and there is also a free bsd i believe both these unix s are quite robust you can check out comp os linux i dunno about linux but for bsd don t forget networking well tested at that nfs a fast incredibly stable filesystem and the list goes on for us bsd folk look in comp os bsd chris moderator of comp os bsd announce anti politician and sometime evangelist chris g demetriou cgd cs berkeley edu bsd as depth first search whenever you go to fix something you find that more things are actually broken adam glass
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt in article pq v kkt gazette bcm tmc edu raymaker bcm tmc edu mark raymaker says is anyone aware of existing ipx netx software for windowsnt or is attachment to netware a future release please respond to internet mail raymaker bcm tmc edu thanks i believe the beta version of the service is available via ftp on ftp cica indiana edu in pub pc win nt called something like nwnt zip there is an index ascii file there which lists the programs in that directory and what they do unfortunately this beta will also disable netbeui and tcp ip over your primary nic so if you really want to run it get yourself an extra nic and bind it to that otherwise wait for next release like i am adriene
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos emm windows prob has anyone else experienced problems with windows hanging after the installation of dos i have narrowed the problem down to emm if if remove or disable emm windows is ok if emm is active with noems windows hangs if i use auto with emm the system hangs on bootup dave david clarke the well is deep wish me well ac freenet carleton ca david clarke mtsa ubc ca clarkec sfu ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows shareware monthly information windows shareware monthly wsm is an on line forum for information about the newest and best windows x and nt shareware freeware software wsm is a compilation of submissions from shareware freeware authors in a single windows hlp help system file all types of software may be submitted for entry in wsm utilities applications games programming tools etc wsm benefits windows shareware freeware authors by allowing them to publicize their software releases inform users of updated versions and to increase their installed base of users those searching for specific windows software will benefit by having a complete list of available software available at their fingertips complete with feature lists current prices and any other relevant information windows software authors may submit entries to windows shareware monthly in the following manner compose a short summary of the function of the software include all special features which are unique to your product and which set it apart from other programs in the genre be sure to include specific details such as the current release version where the software is available how much the registration fee costs how much disk space is required any special requirements e g sound card or vbrun dll etc how the author may be contacted etc because text is highly compressible the summary may be as long as is necessary however it is best to keep it short a good guideline is a single screenful of point text at x resolution order forms and other such addendum may be included if desired all submissions whould be in plain text ascii format formatting will be exactly as it is submitted i will simply cut and paste text files into a help authoring system if you require special formatting conventions such as boldface text or italics or a larger font size indicate so clearly within the text file for best results use windows notepad to create the txt file include up to k of windows format bmp bitmap screen shots which display the workings or special features of each program special cases rendering applications for example which require color bitmaps may submit up to k of bmp files all other should observe the k limit and use color format for maximum compatiblity with the software which will be used to create the wsm hlp file stefan olson s help writer s assistant for windows please save the bitmaps with windows paintbrush or wingif include a color bmp of the program s icon ico file many programs are available to convert ico to bmp format or windows paintbrush may be used the bmp will be embedded in the summary text double check for spelling errors formatting corrections etc compress the txt file the bmp of the program icon and any additional bmps into a single file using pkzip any version submit the entry by uuencoding the zipfile and e mailing it to daa tamuts tamu edu if submitting via the internet or compuserve if submitting via america online send a brief message indicating submission and append the zip file then e mail to diegoaa if any changes are required or a new version is released complete the above procedures again send all submissions to the tamuts address and any comments suggestions criticisms to daa rigel tamu edu all entries received before the deadline will be included in the subsequent edition of wsm the editor will not be held responsible for any errors and we reserve the right to make changes to the entries wsm is not limited to shareware freeware software a special area will be devoted to commercially available windows x and nt software commercial software authors should follow the same steps above with the exception of the limitations on size the txt file and bmps may be as large as required and as large as is practical for transmission over phone lines there is no charge for the publishing of either shareware freeware or commercial product entries advertisements for computer hardware software bulletin boards etc may be submitted as well again the same procedures apply with the exception of the size limitations there is no charge for advertising space the first ten advertisements submitted each month will be included subsequent submissions will not be included due to size constraints wsm is currently looking for persons willing to devote the time to author columns within wsm a c c programing section a visual basic section and two windows specific opinion advice columns are envisioned all work will be on a voluntary basis if you wish to aid wsm and author a monthly column on one of the above topics please send us mail at daa tamuts tamu edu or diegoaa on america online the first edition of wsm will be distributed may st via america online compuserve and the internet the deadline for submissions is april th the first edition filename will be wsm zip with each subsequent monthly release continuing in the series naming convention wsm zip etc each edition will be released on the first of each month and the deadline for submission will be at least three days before release
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm or truetype which to choose in article apr microsoft com davidgl microsoft com david glenn writes again not true the characters in a tt or type font depend on the maker if someone converts a type font to tt they ll only get the characters in the font of orgin tt allows for much more flexibility in this area as well you can have thousands of glyphs in a tt font file mac ps windows unicode char set and use the characters appropriate for the particular platform you are running the font on well yes both type and truetype fonts can contain lots of characters and in both cases plain text fonts will be reencoded to windows ansi in windows and to mac standard roman encoding on the mac no difference there between t and tt and as for fonts with thousands of glyphs right know these are a liabiliaty rather than a great new thing reason is that a font with characters is very large and if you can only access of them you are paying a heavy price in downloading time and printer storage and at the moment there is only one program of that uses partial font downloading for instance all or our fontpack tt fonts have the mac windows char set in them the metrics of the fonts are such that if the font is brought over to the mac the user will have access to the full mac char set yes and t text fonts all have the iso adobe character set which is a superset of windows ansi and macintosh standard roman enocding the question is whether you can get at the glyphs in windows for example you cannot get at the ligatures fi anfd fl both t and tt even though a font may very well have them and while it is somewhat painful to reencode a type font and to create a new windows metric file pfm for it there are utilities out there to allow you do this how do i reencode a truetype font how can i get at the fi and fl ligatures in windows or on the mac are there utilities that make it possible to circumvent the hard wired windows ansi encoding regards a east harmony road bob niland suite internet rjn csn org fort collins co compuserve berthold k p horn cambridge massachusetts usa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	terminal software please reply via email when i use the terminal software for windows such as terminal exe or crossttalk it doesn t use the whole window i mean when the software s window size is max it still scrolls around the of window it does not use whole window i set stty rows but still the same scrolls at from the top of the windows could anyone tell me how to setup these software to use whole window thanks in advance
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re pkunzip g in article pn tr l dekalb dc peachnet edu kenneth dekalb dc peachnet edu kenneth palmertree writes hey does anyone know of an ftp site where i can get pkunzip g from i tried using archie with no such luck this version of pkunzip is suppose to correct some promblems when using pkunzip within windows thanks in advance you can get pk from ftp cica indiana edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ottomenu where can i get it i ve heard about ottomenu which should be a good desktop on windows can anybody tell me where i can get it it should be on cica in pub pc win util but it is not it is also not an wustl simtel and a great number of other sites just post it or mail me andreas gloege kazmaierstr bei klarmann muenchen email gloege informatik tu muenchen de
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	rfd comp databases access this is an official rfd for the creation of a new newsgroup for the general discussion of the microsoft access rdms name comp databases access moderation unmoderated at this time no need for a moderator has been assertained future evaluation will determine if one is needed purpose access is a new rdbms for the windows operating system it includes wysiwyg design tools for easy creation of tables reports forms and queries and a database programming language called access basic the purpose of the group will be to provide help to people who use access s wysiwyg design tools to create simple databases as well as to people who use access basic to create complex databases rationale eventhough access is a new rdbms it is very popular because of its graphical development enviroment and its initial low price been a version product means that all access users are novices for that reason a newsgroup is needed where access users can discuss their experiences with the product and answer each other s questions napoleon mau herky cs uiowa edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm or truetype which to choose tt for true effects for windows games max u washington edu writes in article apr seas gwu edu lai seas gwu edu william y lai writes in article ov rj gev gabriel keele ac uk csd keele ac uk c m yearsley writes i ve just bought a pc which came with a bundle of lotus stuff including adobe type manager version as a newcomer to windows i m confused about which i should be using atm or truetype there is a program called true effects for windows that allows you to define attributes for true type fonts and have them look like new fonts it will give your font different backgrounds or shadows or reverse etc it only works with tt fonts yes and the idea was ripped off from adobe which has had a program called typealign for a few years now typealign does the same thing for adobe type fonts and adobe has said that the next version will work with both adobe type and truetype and typealign does some things that trueeffects does not including some things you apparently want if you want to use it you best not want to use it with an atm type font oh yeah lest you think this is a really cool program none of the effects are scalable like the brick background pattern is the same size whether your font is point of point and it is not extensible i e you can not add pattern of your own and you can t rorate the background pattern and you can t make the pattern extend beyond one character every character in that new font has the entire pattern in it as opposed to having the same pattern run contiguously through a couple of characters it is however cheap maybe i will buy a copy when the next version comes out if they fix some of these gripes john
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mirosoft office package i am in charge of purchasing some computer software for a small office and i have a few question about microsoft s office pack i was wondering are the programs that are packaged with the office pack winword power point excel and ccmail complete and the latest addition are the programs hobbled in any way can we update single programs at a latter date i e from excel to excel do you receive all of the necessary disks and documentation is there anything that i should be aware of that makes the office package less of deal that it seems sorry if i seem skeptical put the price for the office package on the street sounds like a great deal for the office that is purchasing its first computer and software but all four complete programs for less than makes me just a little suspicious maybe its just me thanks for your help in advance kirt wilson northwestern university internet kwilson casbah acns nwu edu bitnet kwilson casbah
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos doublespace stacker is it okay just as the title suggest is it okay to do that i havne t got dos yet but i heart doublespace is less tight than stacker what are disadvantage advantages by doing that any comments will be appreciated martin
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re amipro deskjet printing problem tom belmonte x tbelmont feds prime com wrote hello i recently tried to print some envelopes using amipro with my deskjet printer and i seem to be having a problem what happens is after i physically load the envelope into the printer per the user manual and then select the print envelope icon from amipro all of the proper options have been selected the printer just spits out the envelope without any printing of either a return address or the selected mailing address at this point the printer s online light begins to flash and the print manager shows the printer job as busy this is all that happens until i either shut the printer off or cancel the printing job from the print manager i have also tried this without the use of the print manager with similar results amipro shows the printer as being busy so does anybody have any idea solution regarding this problem i appreciate the help thanks yes ignore the manual just insert the evelope don t use the keypad to move it up the windows driver sends a message to the printer that tells it to load the envelope if it is already loaded it gets ejected and the printer tries to load another the instructions in the manual are for dumb dos apps that don t send the load envelople message tom belmonte bob taylor hp vancouver
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winbench help graphics comparison in article pqd hinnbmi zephyr grace cri nz srg sir grv grace cri nz writes in article c zogd c news udel edu swyatt bach udel edu stephen l wyatt writes i have a question about winbench pc labs thing i have a and a ahead b k card and got these results windows vga driver million ahead b driver winmarks windows svga driver million winmarks i was thinking about upgrading to a diamond x card i read it had about million winmark on my dx mhz mb ram winbench x v m v m v v be very careful with these results as i recall numbers from winbench are calculated differently from and so these figures are not comparable however to answer stephen s question replacing the ahead b card with a diamond x will yield a cost effective dramatic speed increase for windows that or the ati graphics ultra plus greg franklin franklig gas uug arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winbench al col hp com al devilbiss writes jorge erex east sun com jorge lach sun bos hardware writes is there any ftp site that carries winbench results for different graphics cards in excel xls format what is the latest version of winbench and how do they differ is the source available and has anybody try to port it to x window at least in a way that will make comparisons possible on ftp cica indiana edu in pub pc win misc winadv zip is a writeup by steve gibson of infoworld with winbench and a number of other benchmark results for nine isa and four vlb video cards this is a very current upload and is likely to have any card you re currently giving serious consideration not in xls format latest version of winbench that i know of is ver i believe they try to maintain the same rating scale between versions and new versions are released to defeat the lastest coding tricks put in by driver programmers to beat the benchmarks don t know on the last one and why they are considering using winbench as a test they may want to read everything steve gibson has said on the subject in his infoworld column the past couple of month in short virtually every board manufacturer cheats on the test by writing things in the driver that is there only to make the board appear faster on the winbench suite so the winbench score has no bearing in reality to how cards stack up on real world tasks in the last pc magazine they benchmarked some of the new accelerators and admitted that many of them cheated on winbench interestingly they allowed one type of cheating behaviour caching for bitblt operations no matter how unreal yet did not allow a couple of other types of cheating behaviour that some of the cards used at least one card was eliminated from the editor s choice because of cheating on the benchmark al devilbiss al col hp com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is microsoft windows really and ope in article pr r t c agate berkeley edu neff garnet berkeley edu stephen kearney writes apparently not many people complain about the confusion that results from the filemanager progman split it s just a basic flaw i have one thing to say why does everyone say that spliting them up is such a bad thing i actually like my program launcher and file manager do be seperate it make things easier to figure out i mean take a look at os s wps no flames i personally hate it cause i just have too much trouble figuring out how to do simple things like file copy and don t say just drag the icon cause i hate icons in the first place i have too much trouble telling what all those little push buttons mean i want f ile c opy etc although i know i m in the minority swyatt brahms udel edu no disclaimer i blame everything on someone else
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winbench ok so if everyone is cheating is there any tests that run some macro to load a huge drawing etc on the same machine that might then tell us what the real world results are i mean run the tests on the same machine with different video cards running word excel or something like that to see how fast the cards are swyatt brahms udel edu no disclaimer i blame everything on someone else
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mouse on com om or com in windows in article c v p jyf bcstec ca boeing com isbell bcstec ca boeing com robert isbell writes jpaparel cs ulowell edu joseph paparella writes i am having a problem configuring the mouse in windows to use com with irq com and com are being used to support two hour bbs lines there you go com and com use the same irq therefore you can t use a mouse on com and a modem on com or vice versa it s a limitation of dos and in fact windows will not see a mouse on anything other than com or com accept this fact and either get a bus mouse or get a new computer i would also like to know if it is possible to use the mouse on ports other than com or com no the advice above applies greg franklin franklig gas uug arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ami pro and equation mode nagel ucsu colorado edu kurt nagel writes hi i m having a problem with amipro when writing equations if the equation extends past a certain point on a line the whole thing disappears if i then try to delete the equation or cursor beyond the equation ami goes nuts the line counter at the bottom of the screen increments repeatedly and the only way out is to ctrl atl del if i have been unfortunate enough to save a document with one of these screwed up equations the document is basically trashed although i have been able to fix them by going into an ascii editor and deleteing large chunks of the document has anyone else experienced this does lotus know about it and or have a patch thanks in advance kurt nagel fido colorado edu i contacted lotus about this problem today it has been reported previously and there is a fix apparantly the problem only occurs when tab characters are used immediately preceding the equation frame the work around when equations are expected to touch the right margin is to delete at least one preceding tab and use space to align the frame or use set frame where placed w no text wrap around unforutnately once the page run on has occured you are hosed so the moral of the story is use only space characters to align equation frames hope this helps the rest of you who have already contacted me with this problem kurt nagel fido colorado edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hercules graphite has anyone used a hercules graphite adapter it looks good on paper and steve gibson gave it a very good review in infoworld i d love to get a real world impression though how is the speed drivers support looking for something to replace this ati ultra with tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re does dos defragment in article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes well the subject saysit all does dos do defragmentation yes both dblspaced and non dblspaced drives can be defragmented i believe they use norton s speedisk brian t mcgloin lift your glasses friend with mine ncr corp and raise your hand with me usg iss ols i m england stole i m ireland spent miamisburg oh i m an outlawed rapparee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mouse on com om or com in windows jpaparel cs ulowell edu joseph paparella writes i am having a problem configuring the mouse in windows to use com with irq i don t believe irq is the problem i tried a mouse on com irq the usual place and it still did not like it simply windows seems to only support mice on com or com the funny part is though that microsoft s own mouse driver xx was quite happy with my mouse sitting on com why can t windows use the mouse driver or at least support com com irq com irq com irq maxcomport i ve tried this too actually i wanted to be able to use my second modem com irq from windows it still will not talk to that modem i created two profiles amstrad for my amstrad modem on com irq and maestro for my maestro on com irq it will not talk to the maestro at all that their driver does not support com and com in windows their suggestion was that the microsoft or ps setting in windows setup would work it does not nor here windows i can not believe that it is not possible at worst you would need a special version of a mouse driver that looked at com and com instead of com and com i know that irq and irq are normally printer port irqs but i i ve seen nothing like that i ve experimented with logitech s mouse driver too with no sucess have no printers attached a side note is that i would really like to assign com to some higher irq because my soundblaster board uses irq right now i m not using com but no modem that i know of allows settings other than irqs and if you have a soundblaster pro it should support irq as well finally a board that supports irqs the only one i have except my ide controller hamish hamish moffatt hamish cloud apana org au apana the australian public cloud nine bbs fidonet access network association melbourne australia intlnet mail info apana org au titanic software voice for information
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	version control for mac and pc lan we have a lan where we are doing development on product for multiple platforms for the moment we are only working on mac and dos windows the department has always used sneaker net to transport files to the mac since it requires a filter to strip out the lf characters until recently no one concidered using any version control to mediate and as a result the programmers spent a great deal of time merging files together at the end of each week so that a new system could be build we are now trying to streamline this process but are hampered by the lack of software that will allow us to share files across pc and mac platforms i understand that pvcs used to do this but that they no longer support the mac product anyone know why polytron i have seen people ask about development in multiple platforms so i assume that ours is not a new problem who has had to deal with it what solutions have you come up with thanks in advance for any and all suggestions via posting or email if there are enough email responses then i will post a synopsis of the knowledge charles emmons charles emmons charles trintex uucp these opinions are prodigy services co charles trintex uunet uu net mine alone unless white plains ny voice you would like to prodigy id kjrd a fax share them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	file downloading as a beginer i just wonder how to transfer files from the sun system which is on the network to my pc at home not connected to the network i tried to use comit to do so but it was very slow and it seemed that getting multiple files at the same time was impossible could anybody give me some hints infomation thank you in advance liu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re permanaent swap file with dos dbldisk in comp os ms windows misc you write while reading through the dos book it states that the windows permanaent swap file will not work correctly when placed on a compressed drive to make things compatable i removed my permanent swap file before starting the upgrade however when all the dust settled and i go into windows it says that the temporary swap file is right where it always was in the windows directory my question is how come the temporary swap files works ok with a compressed drive and the permanent one doesn t you might want to look in windows faq for this one but here is my best explanation but i can t guarantee that i m not way off base the permenant swap file is read written to by windows by talking directly to the hard disk controller card the controller card must use the protocal set up by western digital or something like that windows creates a file called spart par in your windows directory that points to that file it then uses the physical information about your disk to index to information in that file compressed disks are actually logical disks these disks have different characteristics than the actual physical disk furthermore the information on the compressed disks must be uncompressed before it is used i e it must go through the decompression program that traps disk reads at the operating system level or the bios level because of this inbetween program windows cannot use direct methods to read from the logical disk a permenant swap file is only there to reserve an area of the disk that windows can use and to block that space from dos windows would theoretically not even have to access the file from dos to use that disk space i don t know if it does or doesn t but it checks for it somewhere everytime you boot windows a temporary swap file is just a normal dos file that is accessed by windows via dos and the bios if a disk compression program or other tsr is loaded the file access must go through dos tsr s disk compression and bios in order to be access i e never use a temporary swap file never more on permenent swap files i m sure everyone who has an uncompressed part of their compressed hard disk has seen the message you have selected a swap file greater than the suggested size windows will only use the size suggested do you wan t to create this swap file anyway or something like that well a friend of mine robert called microsoft and asked them what and why what they said is that windows checks the amount of free disk space and divides that number by then it checks for the largest contiguous block of free disk space windows then suggests the smaller of the two numbers they also said that under absolutely no circumstances none will windows uses a swap file larger than the suggested size well that s what he said i call bull if this is true why does windows report the memory is available to me if it s not going to use it any takers james if this doesn t get to the net will someone post it for me thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with winqvt this is the qvthost rc file the host file requires the names that you ll be using in addition to the ip address sucb as name server name name router name carols ohsu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hercules graphite in article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used a hercules graphite adapter it looks good on paper and steve gibson gave it a very good review in infoworld i d love to get a real world impression though how is the speed drivers support the pc world reviewers found out that the herc people had hard coded winbench text into the driver clever no in any case the winbench results are pretty much inflated when and if you get one send me mail i might buy that ati gu off you iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with winqvt swartzjh nextwork rose hulman edu jeff h swartz writes when i use a name such as rosevc rose hulman edu initiating nameserver query for rosevc nameserver query time out when i use the ip number local host or gateway not responding i know the nameserver is correct and the router is correct they work fine using ncsa telnet ftp they are working ok but your definitions in qvtnet ini and qvthost rc are incorrect see below the docs said if you are running concurrent packet software you need to load pktmux does this apply to me no i don t think so you are using qvtnet and novell concurrently aren t you they use different packet types so qvtnet tcp ip and novell ipx spx should be able to coexist just fine pktmux is required if you are using different tcp ip packages concurrently this is the qvthost rc file there is the first problem you didn t specify hostnames just ip addresses your file should look like this name of your nameserver name of your router this is the beginning of the winqvt ini file net name swartzjh test rose hulman edu here you should only specify your hostname without the domain part router instead use router name of your router as specified in your qvthost rc i know the release notes for say that ip addresses should work also but apparently they don t nameserver here too you should use the hostname of the nameserver instead of the ip address it worked fine for me that way although i could not specify more than one nameserver the relnotes say it should be possible to specify up to three nameservers separated by commas but it didn t work hope it helps richard dr richard spitz internet spitz ana med uni muenchen de edv gruppe anaesthesie tel klinikum grosshadern fax munich germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows general questions in article heimdall sdrc com crgruen sony sdrc com robert gruen writes i received amish utilities for windows when i purchased turbo c for windows what is amish utilities what can it do for me all i received was the disk no docs maybe it milks the dogcow i am running windows in x x mode using a driver that was supplied with my svga card the card is a boca svga card with meg ram and i think it has an et chip in it at least thats what some program tells me the driver is an old driver that was written for windows it seems to work fine but would i gain any benefits by switching to a newer driver if so which one should i use and where could i find it lots of drivers are available off ftp cica indiana edu in pub pc win drivers video i ve tried two et cview zip and et turbo zip these give you a choice of turbo and non turbo drivers the turbo drivers were fast but caused mouse problems with my machine which has a diamond speedstar card i finally got turbo drivers wndspeed by binar from diamond amazing blazingly fast for a non accelerated card and best of all no gpf s for a month or so iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fall comdex does anyone out there have any info on the up and coming fall comdex i was asked by one of my peers to get any info that might be available or could anyone point me in the right direction any help would be appreciated dave stevens dls psuvm psu edu training and multimedia services dls psuvm penn state university
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re using microsoft foundation classes with borland c thanks for the info i assume that this is for mfc does anyone know if this will work with mfc or what else needs to be done thanks andy jacobs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to fix word subscript spacing hi i have a problem when using subscripts with msword the problem is the subscripted characters get cut off on the display but print out ok anyone know how to fix the subscripts so i can see them on the screen many thanks howard howard moy
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	character codes problems help i am working on a project that involves using text with foreign language characters in this case norwegian i have been manipulating the data with excell and then exporting the data as comma seperated variable files to an rs workstation the norwegian characters show up fine under windows but appear as funny characters on the workstation the workstation is setup for national language support and we have problem entering the norwegian characters from the workstation keyboard on further investigation i found that the character codes used by windows are different for these characters than those specified by the msdos code page the msdos codes seem to be the same as the workstation what gives and how can get around it please reply by e mail as i will be out of the office the next few days and will not be reading the news thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	faster oak vga drivers i m using an oak based vga card on my computer x x i ve downloaded the driver from ftp cica indiana edu and i ve had good luck with it however does anyone know if a faster driver is available for this card thanks mike michael j mccollister phone harris corporation email p o box mmccolli su l ess harris com mailstop palm bay florida i m not going to say anything stupid today not
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	word help hello i m having problems printing spanish characters with wfw i was using the celtic true type which has the accented characters and used insert symbol to put in in the document however when i put it in the doc i get a big square character and then it prints out just the same to my dismay thinking that was just the way it worked can anyone tell me if and how they have printed spanish characters i know wp has this built in but i do not recall ever seeing this option on wfw help robert s dubinski aliases include robb regal sir mr and i marquette university math computer science double major internet address a dubinski vms csd mu edu milwaukee wi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	is there any documentation for microsoft diagnostics hi i found what i believe is an undocumented feature in my windows directory microsoft diagnostics ver i am specifically interested in a more in depth explanation of the legends in the memory mapping report thanks chak aw chakaw u washington edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re postscript view for dos or windows i ve been using version of ghostscript and i m quite satisfied with it there are actually versions a plain dos version a version and a windows version harvey stein hjstein math huji ac il
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re multiple desktops in article c bht qf news hawaii edu dmcgee uluhe soest hawaii edu don mcgee writes is there a free share ware package that will allow multiple desktops in windows what is desired is to have a desk top for several people that each can personalize by name and choice of programs etc there s a package called workspace on cica that has desktops i haven t done much with it yet but it seems to be able to do what you want it to don t have the exact archive name handy but it s something like wspace blah zip tom finn convex com i speak only for myself peace is the name of the ideal we have deduced from the fact that there have been pauses between wars jerry pournelle in the mercenary
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	nd rfd comp databases ms access this is the nd reguest for discussion rfd for the creation of comp databases ms access the discussion period started on april and it will last until april days this is an official rfd for the creation of a new newsgroup for the general discussion of the microsoft access rdms name comp databases ms access moderation unmoderated at this time no need for a moderator has been assertained future evaluation will determine if one is needed purpose access is a new rdbms for the windows operating system it includes wysiwyg design tools for easy creation of tables reports forms and queries and a database programming language called access basic the purpose of the group will be to provide help to people who use access s wysiwyg design tools to create simple databases as well as to people who use access basic to create complex databases rationale eventhough access is a new rdbms it is very popular because of its graphical development enviroment and its initial low price been a version product means that all access users are novices for that reason a newsgroup is needed where access users can discuss their experiences with the product and answer each other s questions napoleon mau herky cs uiowa edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted dialog box to select file s for dos apps i m looking for a program that will let me use a windows common dialog box to select a file to use when running a dos app basically i have several dos apps that i use now and then with different files they all accept a file as a command line parameter but the only way at least that i know of to do this easily when running them from windows is to set up the pif file so that it prompts me for additional parameters at which point i type in the file name problems are sometimes i can t remember where the file is exactly located and it would be nice to browse my directories for it without having to use the file manager and i m lazy and hate to type long pathnames for files burried several directory levels deep if anyone can point me to such a program or let me know of some other way to handle this i d appreciate it thanks tim the net isn t organized enough to be considered an anarchy reczek autarch acsu buffalo edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win nt what is it two part question what is windows nt a real windows os this past weekend a local hacker radio show metioned a new product from microsoft called chicago if i recall anyone know what this is that is it thanks a heap alan alan s olson swanson environmental inc e mail to alanchem csd csd uwm edu or alan alchemy chem uwm edu want some good music check out milwaukee s own bodeans
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re copy move files in file manager in article c tsf ye murdoch acc virginia edu rsc e orion lib virginia edu scott crittenden writes my understanding is that to copy files from one directory to another on the same drive in file manager using a mouse you hold down the ctrl key while dragging the file from one directory s window to the other this works for me about of the time the other the file gets moved rather than copied anybody else encountered this i tried to respond by email but all attempts bounced the condition of the ctrl key before you press the mouse button makes no difference whatsoever you have to be holding the ctrl key when you release the mouse button if you want to force a copy operation here s a simple experiment select a file and begin to drag it no ctrl key notice that the file s icon disappears from the listing window now watch what happens to that icon as you press and release the ctrl key keeping the mouse button pressed all the while in addition the icon that you are dragging will show a while you are holding the ctrl key indicating that the file is being copied rather than moved bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows have you tried re installing the software otherwise i would be dubious about simple ways to change that screen is it not designed to be an embarassment to would be pirates charles charles emmons charles trintex uucp these opinions are prodigy services co charles trintex uunet uu net mine alone unless white plains ny voice you would like to prodigy id kjrd a fax share them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re multiple desktops in article c bht qf news hawaii edu dmcgee uluhe soest hawaii edu don mcgee writes is there a free share ware package that will allow multiple desktops in windows what is desired is to have a desk top for several people that each can personalize by name and choice of programs etc amishware has one included in their package they were advertising here on the net a couple of weeks ago with a riduculously that is in a good way ted low price does anyone remember what it was charles emmons charles trintex uucp these opinions are prodigy services co charles trintex uunet uu net mine alone unless white plains ny voice you would like to prodigy id kjrd a fax share them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows in article apr trintex uucp charles tinman dev prodigy com writes have you tried re installing the software otherwise i would be dubious about simple ways to change that screen is it not designed to be an embarassment to would be pirates ahh yes this is a fun topic no once the name is incribed on the disk that is it it is encoded not even a hex editor will find it you can write over the licensed to but you can t change the name underneth it i think if you wish to change this you would have to be a pirate and we re not going to promote that here robert s dubinski aliases include robb regal sir mr and i marquette university math computer science double major internet address a dubinski vms csd mu edu milwaukee wi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ghostscript for win fonts servis author ecn purdue edu brian k servis writes that s me i just downloaded the windows ghostscript package gswin zip gs ini zip from ftp when i load a ps file it says it cant find font and substitutes a font called ugly it is substituting for basic fonts such as helv and cour i would imagine that these fonts are included in its font library is there something i am doing wrong or am missing these ugly fonts are not very clear and well defined as in sharpness etc basically they are ugly any advice is welcome ok i realize i have to get the font files from some ftp site i found them at cica but i now have another question are the zip fonts compatible with gswin please email brian servis servis author ecn purdue edu it happened this way actual quotes from insurance claims what i say may not be what i think what i say may not be the pedestrian had no idea which what purdue thinks way to go so i ran him over
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond ss x win mouse cursor anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond x x driver sorry don t know the version of the driver no indication in the menus but it s a recently delivered gateway system am going to try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this post or email don lindbergh dabl lhc nlm nih gov
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati ultra pro drivers does anybody know the ftp site with the latest windows drivers for the ati gup thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hercules graphite in article c jbkf b usenet ucs indiana edu ntaib silver ucs indiana edu iskandar taib writes in article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used a hercules graphite adapter it looks good on paper and steve gibson gave it a very good review in infoworld i d love to get a real world impression though how is the speed drivers support the pc world reviewers found out that the herc people had hard coded i think it was the iit people who make the chip the card is based on who hard coded the string one of the weeklies looked into this an came to the conclusion that the iit chip was still pretty fast winbench text into the driver clever no in any case the winbench results are pretty much inflated when and if you get one send me mail i might buy that ati gu off you iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	procomm plus for windows problems hi i have normal procomm plus for dos but i ve been considering buying the windows version it got really great reviews in computer shopper i have a friend who connects to the mainframe and unix machines here using it but the screen seems to have a problem keeping up with the modem he has a modem on a mhz machine i can t see it having trouble keeping up his pcplus for dos works great but the windows just seems to always screw up is this common and is there a fix or is something just screwed with his machine kent
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	quattro pro file format we are trying to write a program which can read files created by quattro pro and above would anyone know where to find information regarding the format in which quattro pro stores its files thanks in advance mahesh famous dummies madam tussade s wax museum still at case msk po cwru edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	gui application frameworks for windows hello i m investigating the purchase of an object oriented application framework i have come across a few that look good zapp from inmark zinc from zinc software c views from liant win from blaise some considerations i m using being new to windows programming i m from the unix x world the quality and intuitivness of the abstraction that these class libraries provide is very important however since i m not adverse to learning the internals of windows programming the new programming methodology should be closely aligned with the native one i don t believe arbitrary levels of abstraction just for the sake of changing the api are valuable since we will be developing for the bit windows nt system the memory management issues and issues particular to the windows api are less important we will probably buy another c class library something like tools h or booch components from rational to handle data structures and other miscellaneous stuff allocators etc so those features are not that important for this toolkit to have the two that i have narrowed it down to are zapp and zinc they seem to be the two toolkits that have received the most attention from the media i was wondering if anyone had any first hand experience with any of these toolkits especially zapp and zinc a couple of observations about these toolkits that seem particularly noteworthy are zapp seems to have the most extensive coverage of windows functionality and also includes some other miscellaneous useful classes has new fancy d style controls available and support for custom controls has a windows nt version essential redirectable graphics display output architecture useful for printing sizer class for automatically managing control layout after resize seems to be the newcomer this could be an advantage in designing a better system zinc has a platform independent resource strategy not too important for me right now comes with a interface builder tool has a windows nt version essential seems to have been around longer more mature but grew up out of a dos version had a better demo both have source code availability options both are lacking ole support neither seem to have any particular support for multimedia type stuff any thoughts anyone has on this would be much appreciated thanks brett harper brett harper cimlinc com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re permanaent swap file with dos dbldisk in article hydra gatech edu gt c prism gatech edu james dean barwick writes more on permenent swap files i m sure everyone who has an uncompressed part of their compressed hard disk has seen the message you have selected a swap file greater than the suggested size windows will only use the size suggested do you wan t to create this swap file anyway or something like that well a friend of mine robert called microsoft and asked them what and why what they said is that windows checks the amount of free disk space and divides that number by then it checks for the largest contiguous block of free disk space windows then suggests the smaller of the two numbers they also said that under absolutely no circumstances none will windows uses a swap file larger than the suggested size well that s what he said i call bull if this is true why does windows report the memory is available to me if it s not going to use it i think the support droid was malfunctioning and confused the disk space limit with the virtual address space limit as far as the disk is concerned you are limited only by the amount of contiguous free space the limit that causes the message windows will only use is the amount of virtual address space that the virtual memory manager will create and this is a function of the amount of free memory that you have when windows starts in the enh section of system ini you can specify a parameter pageovercommit multiplier the following description is from the windows resource kit this entry specifies the multiplier what determines the amount of linear address space the vmm will create for the system which is computed by rounding up the amount of available physical memory to the nearest mb and then multiplying that value by the value specified for pageovercommit increasing this value increases the amount of available linear address space causing the size of data structures to increase this also increases paging activity proportionately and can slow down the system you can specify a value between and the default is to change this entry you must edit system ini bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it in a previous article alanchem csd csd uwm edu alan scott olson wrote two part question what is windows nt a real windows os this past weekend a local hacker radio show metioned a new product from microsoft called chicago if i recall anyone know what this is that is it thanks a heap alan windows nt is a giant windows operating system unline win it does not run on top of dos it is its own os with billy gates assures us true multi tasking multithreading meets dod security specs will run win programs as well as dos programs has multi processor support and is primarily a server program it s overhead is too high for it to be economical for most users speaking of overhead it requires at least a with megs of ram it iwll run with but that s like running os with megs and that s just to run it also i have heard that the system files take up megs and it is recommended that your drive be a half gig the skd is distributed on cd rom chicogo is what i want to use it is like nt a true os with thrue multitasking and multithreading but has much smaller hardware requirements and does not meet dod security specs but that s okay since it will probably be more of a client os there are a few otehr differences but those are the main ones there was an article about chicogo in pc week last august the chicogo and nt development groups at micro oft are in intense competition so it is said however i think a different relationship will arise nt will be the server n etowrk t echonology chicogo will be the client machine it is entirely possible for different os s to work together partly because chicogo is just a small nt think of it that way anyway novell netware creates an os on the server that is truly not dos so don t scorn the concept anyway don t expect it soon windows and dos are supposed to be released next year read see it in so i expect that chicogo won t be out til with luck i ll be proven wrong rob rmohns vax clarku edu rob mohns annoy rush limbaugh think for yourself
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows this is in relation to a question concerning changing the registered to information of ms windows in a previous article a dubinski vms csd mu edu wrote ahh yes this is a fun topic no once the name is incribed on the disk that is it it is encoded not even a hex editor will find it you can write over the licensed to but you can t change the name underneth it i i can find it with a hex editor although i have not tried to overwrite it are you sure it can t be you may be mistaken about this rob rmohns vax clarku edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re fall comdex dls psuvm psu edu wrote does anyone out there have any info on the up and coming fall comdex i was asked by one of my peers to get any info that might be available or could anyone point me in the right direction any help would be appreciated it s in las vegas as always between november th and th for more information contact the interface group first avenue needham ma sorry no phone number available consult directory service in massachusetts for the number or willy ville v walveranta tel fax linda ave apt from finland oakland ca faxes automatically recognized usa email wil shell portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re permanaent swap file with dos dbldisk in article hydra gatech edu gt c prism gatech edu james dean barwick writes stuff deleted more on permenent swap files i m sure everyone who has an uncompressed part of their compressed hard disk has seen the message you have selected a swap file greater than the suggested size windows will only use the size suggested do you wan t to create this swap file anyway or something like that well a friend of mine robert called microsoft and asked them what and why what they said is that windows checks the amount of free disk space and divides that number by then it checks for the largest contiguous block of free disk space windows then suggests the smaller of the two numbers they also said that under absolutely no circumstances none will windows uses a swap file larger than the suggested size well that s what he said i call bull if this is true why does windows report the memory is available to me if it s not going to use it any takers james well someone at microsoft told you wrong windows will use a swap file larger than the recommended size last summer i went to a microsoft windows technical workshop and they distributed a lot of information that the general public might not be aware of anyway in the main book they handed out they have a section on creating larger than recommended swapfile i ll quote the information if you create a permanent swapfile larger than the recommended size you will receive a message telling you that windows will not use anything larger than the recommended size this error message is incorrect we will allow the use of the larger swapfile up to four times the amount of ram on your machine so as you see microsoft does know that the information is incorrect you probably just ran into some doofball who was new on the job and was only telling you what little he knew be that what it may i would really suggest to everyone to take the opportunity to go to these technical workshops they aren t actually incredibly in depth but you do get a lot of material about bugs and optimization straight from those in the know besides that they offer you huge discounts on software if i remember correctly you could pick up word excel or whatever their presentation program is for that is the full blown version not an upgrade or educational version you could also pick up microsoft office for or something like that myself i sprang for word well hope that was helpful to someone and besides that i hope someone will go to a workshop and save a little money and if anyone at microsoft is reading this i really love your products i need a job once i graduate also can we work something out thanks brent casavant bcasavan mailhost ecn uoknor edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ati ultra pro drivers in article c jldc hl news cso uiuc edu jroberts ux cso uiuc edu robertson writes does anybody know the ftp site with the latest windows drivers for the ati gup thanks the latest driver release is and can be found at ftp cica indiana edu in the pub pc win directory structure as pro zip i checked with ati s bbs last nite and there were no releases past we have the ati local bus card and i noticed that i get garbage around the edges of a window when i move it has anybody else noticed this also tom thomas b fisk internet fisk mayo edu mayo clinic if you don t know where voice first street sw you re going you ll never fax mail stop d stm get there rochester mn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help on bitmaps i wonder if anyone can tell me whether or not i can create a bitmap of any size i followed the bitmap creation example in sdk manual and specified a x bitmap set the width height to and supplied a byte string with chars but i just cannot get the right bitmap image i changed the width height to x and used the same value string padded with zero byets to make up to the right size and got the image the example in the manual is x size which are multiple of bytes can you define a bitmap image of any size thanks very much g chen chen citr uq oz au g chen centre for information technology research university of queensland australia chen citr uq oz au tel fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re gui application frameworks for windows i look at zapp and really liked it however i think you should wait for version i think it will be out soon mike maley maley cs umn edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re speedstar vga card win drivers these drivers updated are available directly from diamond they will even ship them to you at no charge at least they did for me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re permanent swap file in a previous article mlipsie rdm std com mike lipsie mpu says in article c yfd ld sunfish usd edu pwiseman salmon usd edu cliff writes your swap file is purged every time you exit windows if you shut off your computer without exiting windows your swap file remains mb is on the large side are you running more applications than you really need to at the same time this is of course not true the temporary swap file is purged every time you exit windows the permanent file is permanent and can only be changed by adjusting the virtual memory i suspect that either the original poster was tinkering and adjusted the swap file to mb and then forgot about it or somebody helped him mike lipsie work mlipsie ca merl com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory home mikel dosbears uucp when i first setup windows using the self load mode it grabbed about megs of swap file space my meg hd was nearly empty at that time i deleted windows for a time and recently reloaded now my hd is nearly full and windows just took megs i have read somewhere that the best rule of thumb is have your permanent swap file the same size as your regular ram size i have megs of ram and windows took meg perm swap file works very well in fact with my available hd space about megs it won t let me make the swap file any bigger you should change your virtual mem swap file to megs i think that is what you said your ram was c ya artin this communication is sent by artin university of arizona tucson ak cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king of kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re procomm plus for windows problems in article qkqrhinnobc matt ksu ksu edu kentiler matt ksu ksu edu kent p iler writes i have a friend who connects to the mainframe and unix machines here using it but the screen seems to have a problem keeping up with the modem he has a modem on a mhz machine tell him he probably needs to upgrade to a faster video card my baud modem was one of the reasons i sought out the diamond speedstar x i get about million winmarks on my and it just about keeps up with the modem speed using procomm plus for windows too he should get over million on his machine with the same card anything should yield acceptable speed jeff meyers jmeyers ecst csuchico edu x n x w chico ca kd dis ke lw nocal ca usa na grid cn cm
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	what is regload exe perusing through my windows directory i came across a file called regload exe i assume this is part of the registration database but neither my windows manual win resource kit nor pc mag s description of files in the windows directory had a reference to it at least not one that i could find does regedit exe use it or am i way off base peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu ca preferred pgoudswa cln etc bc ca pgoudswa cue bc ca there s no gift like the present goudswaard s observation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re page setup in notepad in apr cbnewsh cb att com krh cbnewsh cb att com writes i often use notepad to view and print read me type files i often find myself rushing to get to print manager to stop the printer and delete the file from the print queue because i ve forgotten to reset the print margins from inches left and right to inches the resulting printed text looks all chopped up because of the hard returns in the source file i struggled with the margin problem for ages as well until i finally got hold of the shareware binary editor beav and dug into notepad exe there is no setup facility to force notepad to default to margins it s hardwired into code do a search for then change the offending bytes to et viola who are the guys who hardcode these options anyway i m interested in whether the problem only rears it s ugly head for certain printers i m using an old epson lx or is that ex never can remember aloha
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	panasonic kx p i driver does anyone out there know if there are print drivers for windows for the panasonic kx p i pin dot matrix printer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows write over the licensed to but you can t change the name underneth it i think if you wish to change this you would have to be a pirate and we re not going to promote that here not so my computer was supplied with my name in an interesting mix of upper and lower case and my workplace mis typed i m getting fed up with being cmyearsley at keel unversity it took me phone calls to the supplier to get the computer working at all i really can t face tackling them again chris
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with winqvt i had a similar problem try changing the netmask to or tommy
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is anyone using video for windows my suggestion would be to contact microsoft about the video windows sdk you would need to call developer services at extension from am to pm pacific time
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	driver for panasonic kx p greetings i am looking pro a win printer driver for the panasonic laser printer kx p i am not sure about the order of the first letters in the name but the numbers are right and they are important i have found drivers for panasonic printers and so on but i think there should be drivers available where the model is included grateful for any help kjell hut fi kjell niksula hut fi kjell vipunen hut fi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re win nt what is it in article apr vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu says in a previous article alanchem csd csd uwm edu alan scott olson wrote two part question what is windows nt a real windows os this past weekend a local hacker radio show metioned a new product from microsoft called chicago if i recall anyone know what this is that is it thanks a heap alan windows nt is a giant windows operating system unline win it does not run on top of dos it is its own os with billy gates assures us true multi tasking multithreading meets dod security specs will run win programs as well as dos programs has multi processor support and is primarily a server program it s overhead is too high for it to be economical for most users it also runs os character based apps and posix apps the dos bit and bit windows apps run in a windows bit subsystem if you consider the fact that nt has the lanman redirectors built in support for tcp ip built in support for netbeui comes with tcp utils like ping and an ftp client etc applications like schedule and a bit version of msmail the storage argument isnt an issue speaking of overhead it requires at least a with megs of ram it iwll run with but that s like running os with megs and that s just to run it also i have heard that the system files take up megs and it is recommended that your drive be a half gig the skd is distributed on cd rom i ran it on a with mram and it did a ton of disk swapping with a m virtual memory paging file it functioned but it crawled this was the oct build i upgraded the machine to m and the performance is good at that point i installed the march build consider they are probably still working on the feature set and havent done a lot of fine tuning to the code yet chicogo is what i want to use it is like nt a true os with thrue multitasking and multithreading but has much smaller hardware requirements and does not meet dod security specs but that s okay since it will probably be more of a client os there are a few otehr differences but those are the main ones there was an article about chicogo in pc week last august the chicogo and nt development groups at micro oft are in intense competition so it is said however i think a different relationship will arise nt will be the server n etowrk t echonology chicogo will be the client machine it is entirely possible for different os s to work together partly because chicogo is just a small nt think of it that way anyway novell netware creates an os on the server that is truly not dos so don t scorn the concept anyway don t expect it soon windows and dos are supposed to be released next year read see it in so i expect that chicogo won t be out til i have little info on chicago so i cant make a comparison is it in beta is there anyone out there who has tested both and cares to make a comparison just my aln
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re win nt what is it i have little info on chicago so i cant make a comparison is it in beta is there anyone out there who has tested both and cares to make a comparison just my aln chicago from what i have read is projected to run in m on and higher it is definitely aimed at the desktop it is rumored to offer preemptive multitasking multithreading but will not offer multiprocessing is bit and no reliance on dos it is rumored to have an integrated file and program manager dos is rumored to be similar to chicago but without the gui is also a step towards cairo the next generation os which is rumored to be object oriented i wonder where windows fits here is it a stepping stone to chicago hope this helps thx dave l
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it rmohns vax clarku edu writes chicogo is what i want to use it is like nt a true os with thrue multitasking and multithreading but has much smaller hardware requirements and does not meet dod security specs but that s okay since it will probably be more of a client os there are a few otehr differences but those are the main ones there was an article about chicogo in pc week last august the chicogo and nt development groups at micro oft are in intense competition so it is said however i think a different relationship will arise nt will be the server n etowrk t echonology chicogo will be the client machine it is entirely possible for different os s to work together partly because chicogo is just a small nt think of it that way anyway novell netware creates an os on the server that is truly not dos so don t scorn the concept anyway don t expect it soon windows and dos are supposed to be released next year read see it in so i expect that chicogo won t be out til how does chicago differ from the sort of announced windows my understand ing at least from the inbfoworld accound of windows is that it s sort of nt lite a full fledged operating system but lacking server and security features that make nt such a bear is w not true multithreading
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re procomm plus for windows problems kentiler matt ksu ksu edu kent p iler writes hi i have normal procomm plus for dos but i ve been considering buying the windows version it got really great reviews in computer shopper i have a friend who connects to the mainframe and unix machines here using it but the screen seems to have a problem keeping up with the modem he has a modem on a mhz machine i can t see it having trouble keeping up his pcplus for dos works great but the windows just seems to always screw up is this common and is there a fix or is something just screwed with his machine kent i have no trouble running procomm for windows at v on a considerably slower sx could be a video problem but only if he has incredibly slow video
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re word help from article b b a a vms csd mu edu by a dubinski vms csd mu edu can anyone tell me if and how they have printed spanish characters i know wp has this built in but i do not recall ever seeing this option on wfw help try using the extended character set alt sequences look in character map in the accessories group and see the alt sequence for the font you want gregory r cook internet gcook horus cem msu edu department of chemistry cookgreg student msu edu michigan state university cook cemvax cem msu edu east lansing mi bitnet cook msucem bitnet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need windows logo in article qjqed ft access digex net holland access digex com brian holland writes markus maier s maier m rzmain rz uni ulm de wrote hi well i m searching for the ms windows logo u know the picture when u start windows in some suitable grafics format like gif or jpg c windows system vgalogo rle if my memory serves me correctly rle is a compressed bmp format an is readable by wingif paintshop pro paint and god knows how many other programs mike mattix agricultural group of monsanto p o box luling la internet address dmmatt bigez monsanto com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted symantec address nothing beats skiing if you want to have real fun during holidays rob de winter philips research ist it building wl p o box ja eindhoven the netherlands tel e mail dewinter prl philips nl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted address symantec i am looking for the exact address of the symantec coporatoin which distributes norton desktop and other windows software the information i am looking for is mail address phone number fax number e mail address thanks in advance nothing beats skiing if you want to have real fun during holidays rob de winter philips research ist it building wl p o box ja eindhoven the netherlands tel e mail dewinter prl philips nl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows in article apr vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu writes this is in relation to a question concerning changing the registered to information of ms windows in a previous article a dubinski vms csd mu edu wrote ahh yes this is a fun topic no once the name is incribed on the disk that is it it is encoded not even a hex editor will find it you can write over the licensed to but you can t change the name underneth it i i can find it with a hex editor although i have not tried to overwrite it are you sure it can t be you may be mistaken about this you can change it as part of a continuously downsizing government organization my code branch changes about once a year i just finished changing the registration information using norton utilities i sent the original requester the hex offset into user exe containing the information and his reply indicated he got several similar answers and it s not encoded in any way as for the legality there s nothing that keeps me from changing the information it certainly doesn t reach out and alter the serial number printed on the inside of my manual jim moore panama city fl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re gui application frameworks for windows in article apr cimlinc uucp bharper cimlinc uucp brett harper writes hello i m investigating the purchase of an object oriented application framework i have come across a few that look good zinc has a platform independent resource strategy not too important for me right now brett harper cimlinc com just a thought on resources it is very important if you do use a multiplatform toolkit to check on how it uses resources i have used glockenspeil commonview under motif and os i wrote a resource converter from os to motif but it really wasn t too easy especially the naming scheme in motif you cannot rename controls widgets with windows you can call the ok button id ok in every instance this doesn t work for motif you d have to call it dialog ok and motif expects a text string rather than a number so your constructor should know how to convert a define into the proper resource identifier i d check on how the toolkit expects names and that if it does use resources that is uses resources for all platforms you intend to port to by the way i would never use commonview or glockenspiel for anything alex alex colburn image analysis facility university of iowa colburn tessa iaf uiowa edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hercules graphite in article c jbkf b usenet ucs indiana edu ntaib silver ucs indiana edu iskandar taib writes in article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used a hercules graphite adapter it looks good on paper and steve gibson gave it a very good review in infoworld i d love to get a real world impression though how is the speed drivers support the pc world reviewers found out that the herc people had hard coded winbench text into the driver clever no in any case the winbench results are pretty much inflated but the impressive performance of the graphite was not its winmark it was its wintach result esp the paint performance judging from the wintach tests i can hardly imagine that there is a cheat driver for it agus budy wuysang digitech student monash university clayton melbourne australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x win mouse cursor in article apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don a b lindbergh writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond x x driver sorry don t know the version of the driver no indication in the menus but it s a recently delivered gateway system am going to try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this as a followup this is a co worker s machine he has the latest drivers it only happens using the x x driver sometimes it takes a minute or so for the cursor to wig out but it eventually does in this mode i susect something is stepping on memory the video card wants i excluded a c ff in the emm line and in system ini the problem persisted perhaps it is something specific to the gateway machine or it s components it is a mhz dx eisa bus with an ultrastore xx controller ah well i was hoping this was some kind of known problem or somebody had seen it before perhaps a call to gateway is in order but i do find folks here usually are far more in the know don lindbergh dabl lhc nlm nih gov
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it in article qmc e g b access digex net wild access digex com wildstrom writes from wild access digex com wildstrom subject re win nt what is it date apr much stuff deleted what is win i upgraded to mathcad and it installed a directory for win under windows system during the upgrade it told me that win was required
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re procomm plus for windows problems you have a lot more problems keeping up with hardware interrupts in windows than in dos regardless of what communication software you are using try the following turn off disk write cache for the disk you are downloading to the cache will save up so much that when it grabs control of the machine it takes too long to write to disk and you loose characters use a different uart for your serial line the old uart s or can only buffer one character internally the new uart s can buffer which should be plenty for most situations you can run windows msd exe to find out what uart is on the machine ron
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it rmohns vax clarku edu writes windows nt is a giant windows operating system unline win it does not run on top of dos it is its own os with billy gates assures us true multi tasking multithreading meets dod security specs will run win programs as well as dos programs has multi processor support and is primarily a server program it s overhead is too high for it to be economical for most users correction all billy is promising is that it will run most windows programs and the major dos programs do not expect everything you have to run under nt unless all you have are current ms apps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how do i make ghostscript work what files do i need to download for ghostscript i have never used ghostscript before so i don t have any files for it what i do have is gs win zip which i downloaded from cica unfortunately it doesn t seem to work on it s own but needs some more files that i don t have i want to run ghostscript both in windows and in ms dos on a pc i understand there s versions for both environments what are all the files i need to download and where can i get them any info would be appeciated steve w brewer rewerb w evets cl ulkyvx louisville edu ude ellivsiuol xvyklu lc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows keeps crashing please help as the subjects says windows keeps crashing givinh me gpf on me of late it was never a very stable package but now it seems to crash every day the worst part about it is that it does not crash consistently ie i can t reproduce crashes and they are not always gpf s in the same application sometimes i can recover by simply closing the application that caused an error but other times windows acts very strange and i need to re boot some background i have a leading edge sx with phoenix bios when i first got it it had mg of memory it ran windows fine not too many gpf s then a couple of weekends ago i installed lotus for windows with atm a game card and an additional mg simms the leading edge machine is kind of strange in that it has the ide controler built into the motherboard the cpu is actually on a sparate board that plugs into the motherboard and the simms it uses are macintosh simms apparently i was told that the leading edge had the parity bit built into the mother board the original mg ns simms where of the chip variety from samsung and the ones i installed are chip simms they are recognized fine by the bios ram check the game card is a generic gamecard the reason why i mention the hardware like this is that sometimes rebooting the machine using the reset button or ctl alt del still leaves the machine kind of flaky but turning it on and off doesn t i haven t tried taking out the ram or the game card because as i said these gpf are not reproducible at will i have gone through and entire day using the computer with no problems and then i might get or so gpf s in the sppace of minutes what can i do this situation is most annoying are there any good diagnostic tools for hardware do you think that this might be a software problem ie emm etc if it helps i have manage to get gpf s on after dark quicken paint shop pro a lot of them have been in user exe or gdi exe any help is truly appreciated eric ebosco us oracle com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re permanaent swap file with dos dbldisk stuff deleted be that what it may i would really suggest to everyone to take the opportunity to go to these technical workshops they aren t actually incredibly in depth but you do get a lot of material about bugs and optimization straight from those in the know besides that they offer you huge discounts on software if i remember correctly you could pick up word excel or whatever their presentation program is for that is the full blown version not an upgrade or educational version you could also pick up microsoft office for or something like that myself i sprang for word the value of these workshops aside you ought to be able to buy full copies of all this software through your campus bookstore or software distributor at these rates i m not aware that the educational version of word or excel is doped down in any way well hope that was helpful to someone and besides that i hope someone will go to a workshop and save a little money and if anyone at microsoft is reading this i really love your products i need a job once i graduate also can we work something out thanks brent casavant bcasavan mailhost ecn uoknor edu david farley the university of chicago library east th street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re permanent swap file in article qlja i b usenet ins cwru edu ak cleveland freenet edu martin linsenbigler writes when i first setup windows using the self load mode it grabbed about megs of swap file space my meg hd was nearly empty at that time i deleted windows for a time and recently reloaded now my hd is nearly full and windows just took megs one of the rules for a permanent swap file is that it must be contiguous non fragmented space i suspect that is more responsible for the difference than the amount of free disk in your case i have read somewhere that the best rule of thumb is have your permanent swap file the same size as your regular ram size i have megs of ram and windows took meg perm swap file works very well in fact with my available hd space about megs it won t let me make the swap file any bigger you should change your virtual mem swap file to megs i think that is what you said your ram was it depends on what you are running we had to increase our swap file i think it is now mb when some applications couldn t run without everything else closed mike lipsie work mlipsie ca merl com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory home mikel dosbears uucp
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wanted address symantec dewinter prl philips nl rob de winter writes i am looking for the exact address of the symantec coporatoin which distributes norton desktop and other windows software the information i am looking for is mail address phone number fax number e mail address try postmaster norton com or postmaster symantec com thanks in advance nothing beats skiing if you want to have real fun during holidays rob de winter philips research ist it building wl p o box ja eindhoven the netherlands tel e mail dewinter prl philips nl ken lam network administrator university of charleston dept of biology geology s c space grant consortium fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cirrus logic graph card after setting up windows for using my cirrus logic vlb graphicscard it moved a normal window from one place to another my parameters where just the following dx vlb the card is equipped with mb dram not vram there are sockets for vram and the moving of the window just looked like it looked at a friends dx dx and an normal isa et what i was wondering why is it not using the bitblt engine which is suuposed to be on the chip how are the experiences here have i done something wrong i installed the mswin multiresolution drivers which where supplied with the card would be nice if somebody could tell about his experience with this card also if there are new hopefully faster drrivers around i would love to how to get hold of them ftp or whatsoever gruss wolfgang
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re procomm plus for windows problems kentiler matt ksu ksu edu kent p iler writes i have normal procomm plus for dos but i ve been considering buying the windows version it got really great reviews in computer shopper i have a friend who connects to the mainframe and unix machines here using it but the screen seems to have a problem keeping up with the modem he has a modem on a mhz machine i can t see it having trouble keeping up his pcplus for dos works great re what to do after the high speed modem arrives edition apr this article applies only to windows and and not to nt os or dos apps not running under windows one of the unadvertised limitations of most current windows pcs is that their rs c serial com performance is seriously deficient almost everyone who purchases a high speed modem v bis v pep or hst discovers the problem the first time they try to download a file or accept an incoming fax at after upgrading the modem overrun and retry errors abound even when the only active application is the datacomm or fax program if the transfer completes at all it may take even longer than with the old bps modem there are three reasons for the problem the universal asynchronous receiver transmitters uarts used in most pcs are primitive ns devices with single byte fifo buffers if the operating system driver cannot read and flush each character at high interrupt rates the next incoming character overwrites the fifo and the previous one is lost dos being a fairly single minded environment during datacomm can usually keep up windows can t windows has more operating system overhead than plain dos and interrupts often take longer to service overruns are much more likely than under dos as soon as you report to your pc modem vendor that you are losing data you may be advised that you need to upgrade to a more likely since there seems to be a conspiracy of ignorance about this issue you ll get no useful advice at all most of the store front and mail order sources i spoke with in attempting to solve my own problem had never heard the term and many didn t even know what a uart was even your pc has ns a uarts and ps s do or if you can upgrade your mother com board or add a new com board you may still experience errors and overruns because the standard microsoft windows com drivers don t take full advantage of the windows is improved in this regard over but i still recommend a driver upgrade applications like procomm win which is what i use cannot get around this problem by themselves if you have a modem card you may not have a problem as the modem part of the card can be designed to be aware of the state of the uart and avoid overrunning it however i wouldn t want to bet that the card designers were that clever and will insist on a uart if i ever buy a modem card some modem cards don t even have conventional uarts but if they are to work with standard windows drivers they need to simulate one use msd exe below to see what the modem card is or is pretending to be the hardware situation the uarts on most pc com ports are based on national semiconductor ns or ns chips or megacells inside vlsi chips where you can t replace them you can id the uart type on your system by running the microsoft diagnostic program windows msd exe be sure to run it in dos before bringing up windows the windows serial api may prevent msd from accurately identifying a if you run it from a windows dos prompt the ns uart has separate byte transmit and receive fifos with configurable trigger levels and can run reliably at clock rates up to bps although with current modem technology there s no point in pushing your luck by going over bps the has shorted access cycle times than the or the also has dma capability but it is not clear that any pc drivers ever use this for more technical info see national semiconductor application note an so what uart component do you have try to locate the uart on your mother board multi function i o card com board or isa mca modem card if you can t find a socketed component with the numbers or your com ports are probably buried in vlsi and you won t be able to perform a chip replacement if you can disable your vlsi com ports as i chose to do you can at least add an aftermarket com board if you have one or more socketed or chips you can buy plug in ns afn or pc c cn low power cmos version ics from several suppliers typically for to each the n chip is the normal pin dual in line package other styles are available but avoid any ns chips without the a the c c are presumably all ok early ns chips have bugs although national will reportedly exchange those of their own manufacture for free clone chips are available from various ic makers other than national the manual for the turbocom drivers states support for the following apparently equivalent chips national semiconductor a chips technology c texas instruments t c a silicon systems m vlsi c turbocom warns about the pre a ns and western digital c says that problems have been reported with early ibm ps sx and systems ibm reportedly will upgrade them if you don t have socketed chips you ll need to buy an after market com or multi function board if this is a modem card situation you may be hosed to add a new com or multi function card you ll need to either disable the com port s you are replacing or re assign them to com although watch out for irq conflicts without turbocom although cheaper cards are available in the interest of getting the problem solved quickly i elected buy the modular circuit technology mct aio card from jdr microdevices samaritan drive san jose ca voice us voice other fax us the mct aio and the is important sells for it is an bit isa card providing port type connector address and irq comments com db m com irq ns afn in socket com ribbon com irq ns afn in socket parallel db f lpt irq game ribbon the kit includes a ribbon cable and db f connector for the secondary com port a ribbon cable connector for the game port two bulkhead plates for the ribbon based connectors and a f to f adaptor cable each port can be individually disabled and the com ports have tx rx rts cts dtr dcd and dsr jumpers jdr also sells a super i o m f card that also has ide i have heard from several people about less expensive m f i o cards with s tsd systems for the card plus per greenfield trading and distributors voice fax their card is w one w and they sell afns for r s data systems inc east highway longwood fl phone fax com lpt game card w s for i have no personal experience with any of the firms except jdr meanwhile back at the mct card from jdr i only needed two serial ports and am running out of irqs on my pc so i disabled my built in vlsi based ports however with the turbocom driver below i could have set the internals as com and using irq sharing the software situation simply upgrading to uarts will not completely solve common overrun problems the standard ms serial drivers don t take full advantage of the the windows drivers are even less capable and the windows drivers have the following limitations they enable only the receive fifo and only at rates above bps they never enable the transmit fifo which results in an interrupt rate of x during uploads they set the trigger level at bytes too high it s easy for more bytes to arrive before the driver can read the fifo the ports menu of the control panel only allows speeds up to with a v bis modem sparse data and text can easily compress or more suggesting that a host dte connect rate of bps would be effective the api won t accept rates above cbr the api won t let dos programs know there is a there and even if it did dos programs that aren t aware get little benefit from a port with the standard drivers they don t allow irq sharing for com the bios doesn t initialize com properly in many systems windows provides no workaround for apps that don t provide port speed options above bps these problems are reportedly not solved in windows nt or dos and may or may not be addressed in any windows releases after but before rumors suggest they may be solved in windows you can get replacement drivers that solve all of those problems by buying a copy of turbocom current version from bio engineering research pacific commware division beacon hill lane ashland or voice fax bbs mcimail compuserve price was around as i recall bio eng is not set up to accept credit cards so i had to send a check egghead and software list turbocom but as far as i know they don t stock it bio is not a software company per se they apparently needed reliable hi speed serial connections for an in house instrument application wrote their own driver discovered a market for it revised it to be a general purpose com driver suite they recently upgraded it for windows it is run time licensed i now have my host dte connect rate set to bps most of my datacomm apps and i am having zero problems with downloads i routinely see transfer rates that exceed bps i am also using bps when linking an hp lx to my pc with lossless bi directional i o uploads to various remote systems are another matter because many hosts are still using antique uarts and drivers note that is still the highest rate that the windows port menu in control panel will allow in configuring a com port turbocom gets around this by allowing you to specify on each port a factor that will set the real uart rate to a multiple of the rate passed through the windows apis and dialog boxes i also have cts rts hardware flow control enabled and i suggest that you do the same even if you only ever transfer bit ascii data xon xoff is not a sufficiently reliable method of flow control the informal dec standard for xon xoff hysteresis is that the sender may transmit another yes sixteen bytes after receipt of the xoff from the receiving system or device the byte fifo in the is clearly not big enough to let us rely exclusively on xon xoff a well respected datacomm engineer has informed me that the s can t really do cts rts all by itself in the dos windows environment so using data rates above may still be risky even with hardware flow control a with turbocom can still experience overruns in very busy systems with lots of apps running and serious swapping in progress if this is your situation you may need to buy a co processed com board but this will cost you more than a turbocom upgrade a review of two such boards and a review of turbocom can be found in the feb issue of windows sources magazine i suggest trying a turbocom upgrade first and experiment with process priorities and time slices if you are a power user whose thrashing system still runs into comm problems closing soapbox comments the state of rs c serial datacomm support is an embarrassment across the computer industry because it is the oldest standard i o interface the job of designing hardware and writing software often seems to be assigned to the least senior or lowest ranked engineers at computer companies the design of the average serial port is at least ten years behind the state of the art in my last job with a major workstation vendor i lobbied for improved serial ports when they were doing the initial designs of a new system that family of machines was subsequently introduced with ports however this is the exception few computer companies seem to have any champions for decent i o you may as well learn what you can about serial i o because this situation shows no sign of improving soon when v fast arrives i expect cries of outrage from windows users world wide whose pcs sort of work today with v but will fail miserably with v fast without a hardware buffered uart like the and without software drivers that use that uart to best advantage a v fast modem will be a waste of money regards a east harmony road bob niland suite internet rjn csn org fort collins co compuserve copyright robert j niland all rights reserved permission is granted for automatic redistribution of this article via electronic magnetic and optical media in an unedited form through any usenet newsgroup where the article is posted by the author permission is granted for each compuserve and usenet reader subscriber and each person who received this article from compuserve an ftp site authorized by the author or via electronic mail from the author to retain one electronic copy and to make hardcopy reproductions of this edition of this article for personal non commercial use provided that no material changes are made to the article or this copyright statement all other copying storage reproduction or redistribution of this article in any form is prohibited without the express written consent of the author robert j niland eof
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	any updated canon bj driver hi can anyone tell me where i can get a copy of updated canon bj printer driver for windows if any i have ver which comes with my bj printer i just wonder if there is any newer version thanks very much please email
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows for workgroups and lan workplace this may be a simple question but we have a number of pc s which we use to link to a mainframe using novell lan workplace for dos via windows now to make life easier for us we are thinking of using windows for workgroups to allow file sharing across our pc network now does anyone know if it is possible to use w wg and lan workplace for dos at the same time ie can i access a file on another pc while being logged on to the mainframe at the same time simultaneously any help well appreciated gary hunt centre for advanced studies in architecture university of bath absgh gdr bath ac uk
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re word help in article qmf l euh msuinfo cl msu edu gcook horus cem msu edu greg cook writes from article b b a a vms csd mu edu by a dubinski vms csd mu edu can anyone tell me if and how they have printed spanish characters i know wp has this built in but i do not recall ever seeing this option on wfw help try using the extended character set alt sequences look in character map in the accessories group and see the alt sequence for the font you want thanks i think i ve figured it out now robert s dubinski aliases include robb regal sir mr and i marquette university math computer science double major internet address a dubinski vms csd mu edu milwaukee wi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows ok then where is the info for the licensing kept which file in the organization box i put my address and when i moved i wanted to change it but couldn t find it i could find my name but not the organization robert s dubinski aliases include robb regal sir mr and i marquette university math computer science double major internet address a dubinski vms csd mu edu milwaukee wi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re page setup in notepad in a previous article joel jach hawaii edu joel aycock wrote i struggled with the margin problem for ages as well until i finally got hold of the shareware binary editor beav and dug into notepad exe there is no setup facility to force notepad to default to margins it s hardwired into code do a search for then change the offending bytes to et viola who are the guys who hardcode these options anyway i m interested in whether the problem only rears it s ugly head for certain printers i m using an old epson lx or is that ex never can remember aloha you are nto alone i get the same problems with my panasonic kpx i pin oterhwise it s a great printer i just can t find a driver for it only for the non i version anyone seen it rob rmohns vax clarku edu rob mohns annoy rush limbaugh think for yourself
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need windows logo in a previous article dmmatt cajun wrote in article qjqed ft access digex net holland access digex com brian holland writes markus maier s maier m rzmain rz uni ulm de wrote hi well i m searching for the ms windows logo u know the picture when u start windows in some suitable grafics format like gif or jpg c windows system vgalogo rle if my memory serves me correctly rle is a compressed bmp format an is readable by wingif paintshop pro paint and god knows how many other programs that isn t enough to change your windows startup logo vgalogo rle is not needed after you have installed windows it is incorporated as a part of win com to make a new win com you have to concatinate three files together using the b option for a binary concatonation i beleive it is copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle mywin com make sure you backup your win com file in anotehr directory before you do this i absent mindedly typed win com instead of mywin com and had to resinstall windows anyway substitute whatever rle file you want the win cnf has the info needed to start windows think of it as a bootstrap and vgalogo vga has video information just make sure that the rle file doesn t tip the whole com file size over the k limit of a com file so anyway i use mywin com to startup ms windows now instead of that annoying micro oft advertisment i have the joker yes from batman taking yoru picture from the screen saying smile also a little bit of text micro oft windows the world s first commercially sucessful virus i added that because of the frequency of crashes grin rob a post by rob mohns rmohns i had no water so vax clarku edu i drowned in sand
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	any updated canon bj driver hi can anyone tell me where i can get a copy of updated canon bj printer driver for windows if any i have ver which comes with my bj printer i just wonder if there is any newer version thanks very much please email
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re any good sound formats conversion program out there in article edd h mings cc monash edu au edd h mings cc monash edu au ywi li writes hi all does anyone know if there is a good sound formats conversion program out there like paintshoppro for picture formats conversion please send me a copy of your reply thanks a lot bel hi the best sound conversion program i ve ever seen is soundtool which is shareware from germany i found a copy somewhere in wuarchive wustl edu a long time ago but i don t know offhand what directory it was under it s great at converting files of all types including mac next sun and various pc formats it s also a great player and editor with various special effects that put windows sound recorder to shame it requires a driver for various sound cards the only builtin one is for the pc speaker and even that sounds pretty good but if you re just using it to convert things you can convert them in soundtool and then play them in sound recorder give it a try bret why that s the second mogul soda berkeley edu biggest monkey head i ve mogul ocf berkeley edu ever seen guybrush mogul uclink berkeley edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows rmohns vax clarku edu writes this is in relation to a question concerning changing the registered to information of ms windows in a previous article a dubinski vms csd mu edu wrote ahh yes this is a fun topic no once the name is incribed on the disk that is it it is encoded not even a hex editor will find it you can write over the licensed to but you can t change the name underneth it i i can find it with a hex editor although i have not tried to overwrite it are you sure it can t be you may be mistaken about this rob rmohns vax clarku edu on a similar note has anyone found out a way to do this with ms foxpro for windows my setup ini file was modified on disk all encrypted well of course i forgot about microsoft s stupid arrangement when i got the software and used my name it was paid for by the company i m doing consulting for when my job is done it s their software any ideas before i start doing dumb things to a copy of that file mattias ps no i don t want to pirate this software i just want to avoid having to buy a new copy in order to change the registration information and then having a copy lying around i don t use maybe i can get a new disk mattias hembruch my views do not necessarily reflect those of the tse e mail mhembruc tse com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re procomm plus for windows problems jeff meyers jmeyers ecst csuchico edu wrote in article qkqrhinnobc matt ksu ksu edu kentiler matt ksu ksu edu kent p iler writes i have a friend who connects to the mainframe and unix machines here using procomm plus for windows but the screen seems to have a problem keeping up with the modem he has a modem on a mhz machine tell him he probably needs to upgrade to a faster video card my baud modem was one of the reasons i sought out the diamond speedstar x i get about million winmarks on my and it just about keeps up with the modem speed using procomm plus for windows too he should get over million on his machine with the same card anything should yield acceptable speed i m using pc plus at home on my trusty old nec sx with a baud modem with no problems at all i am however running only straight color vga christopher menzel internet cmenzel tamu edu philosophy texas a m university phone college station tx fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	gatewaying microsoft mail workgroups via modem our student association runs a small novell network which has a subnetwork of windows for workgroups and microsoft mail the director of finance en electrical engineering student would like to gateway this system either via slip or not into the university s network and thus the internet at the very least to exchange e mail but possibly also to do ftp s etc for now this would be done via a bps modem he would like to set it up so that it would periodically call in to check mail but would otherwise connect whenever needed what is the best way to do this gatewaying software is available but what works best please reply to me dkmiller unixg ubc ca or the d of f dleung ee ubc ca with a cc to the other i don t read all of these groups regularly so mail is best if this is a common question please pot me to a faq or ftp site derek k miller dkmiller unixg ubc ca researcher alma mater society thegrodd tz ucs sfu ca university of british columbia canada room b sub blvd vancouver b c v t z campus mail zone phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it somewhere in this thread it has been said that windows nt tm is a multi user os as well as multi threading etc i certainly haven t seen this to be the case there are seperate accounts for each person and even seperate directories if that is desired i don t see an implentation of simultaneuos use though scott scott reimert reimert mamacass etdesg trw com standard disclaimer redondo beach ca blah blah blah always store beer in a cool dark place
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows keeps crashing please help in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes from ebosco us oracle com eric bosco subject windows keeps crashing please help date fri apr gmt as the subjects says windows keeps crashing givinh me gpf on me of late it was never a very stable package but now it seems to crash every day the worst part about it is that it does not crash consistently ie i have you tried setting files in your config sys file to a fairly high number i ve got mine set to i ve seen numbers from to recommended also check your stacks statement stacks is a good starting point try increasing it if it s already set there such as to stacks etc both stacks and files have been identified as one cause of frequent win crashes lamont downs downs nevada edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x win mouse cursor in article apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don a b lindbergh writes in article apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don a b lindbergh writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond x x driver sorry don t know the version of the driver no indication in the menus but it s a recently delivered gateway system am going to try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this as a followup this is a co worker s machine he has the latest drivers it only happens using the x x driver sometimes it takes a minute or so for the cursor to wig out but it eventually does in this mode i susect something is stepping on memory the video card wants i excluded a c ff in the emm line and in system ini the problem persisted perhaps it is something specific to the gateway machine or it s components it is a mhz dx eisa bus with an ultrastore xx controller ah well i was hoping this was some kind of known problem or somebody had seen it before perhaps a call to gateway is in order but i do find folks here usually are far more in the know don lindbergh dabl lhc nlm nih gov i haven t seen this particular problem but another place you might check is if your bios is doing video shadowing diamond wants that turned off that might cause a memory conflict as well good luck hope this helps chris loschen brandeis u
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it wild access digex com wildstrom writes rmohns vax clarku edu writes chicogo is what i want to use it is like nt a true os with thrue multitasking and multithreading but has much smaller hardware requirements and does not meet dod security specs but that s okay since it will probably be more of a client os there are a few otehr differences but those are the main ones there was an article about chicogo in pc week last august the chicogo and nt development groups at micro oft are in intense competition so it is said however i think a different relationship will arise nt will be the server n etowrk t echonology chicogo will be the client machine it is entirely possible for different os s to work together partly because chicogo is just a small nt think of it that way anyway novell netware creates an os on the server that is truly not dos so don t scorn the concept anyway don t expect it soon windows and dos are supposed to be released next year read see it in so i expect that chicogo won t be out til how does chicago differ from the sort of announced windows my understand ing at least from the inbfoworld accound of windows is that it s sort of nt lite a full fledged operating system but lacking server and security features that make nt such a bear is w not true multithreading can anyone tell me how chicago windows would differ from os x believe it or not i m not trying to start a flame war here i m simply curious if there is going to be any feature advantage in either of these products i do not consider the fact that it has uncle bills seal of approval much of a feature
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	gif to bmp does anybody have any idea where i could find a program that can convert a gif image into a bmp image suitable for a windows wallpaper i e colors hopefully there s something out there i can get from an ftp site somewhere thanks in advance scott
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x win mouse cursor in article apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don a b lindbergh writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond x x driver sorry don t know the version of the driver no indication in the menus but it s a recently delivered gateway system am going to try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this as a followup this is a co worker s machine he has the latest drivers it only happens using the x x driver sometimes it takes a minute or so for the cursor to wig out but it eventually does in this mode i susect something is stepping on memory the video card wants i excluded a c ff in the emm line and in system ini the problem persisted perhaps it is something specific to the gateway machine or it s components it is a mhz dx eisa bus with an ultrastore xx controller ah well i was hoping this was some kind of known problem or somebody had seen it before perhaps a call to gateway is in order but i do find folks here usually are far more in the know i use the diamond speedstar x in x x mode all of the time i have not found distortions in the cursor the cursor is a little jumpy from time to time due to bit access to the swap file but it is never distorted greg bishop bishop baeyer chem fsu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows for workgroups and lan workplace now does anyone know if it is possible to use w wg and lan workplace for dos at the same time ie can i access a file on another pc while being logged on to the mainframe at the same time simultaneously yup we re using both and they work just fine hopefully someday wfwg will communicate over lwp tcpip right now we have to load netbeui i use odi with odinsup and all works well
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dataproducts lzr not printing correctly just an apology in advance for posting a binary to this newsgroup i ve had several attempts to mail it to the original poster but it s not getting through intact clive mitchell ph regional network systems mitchell telecomwa oz au perth western australia v
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm now hplj pricing while there are too many ps clones to count some of which are quite poor trying to clone something that goes through regular modifications does require some patience three questions come to mid real quick for something like this q which version of adobe ps will we clone aside from the level and level issues adobe has in the past released new code that incorporates modifications upgrades fixes just as all other software vendors do the level stuff may seem sound now but i assure you changes will become more frequent as their customer list begins to dwindle in the face of competition this allows them to shift people to maintenance as well as design efforts for level q do we duplicate the bugs or do we make it work correctly from the laserwriter to the laserjet there have been bugs if i had a number to call at hp or adobe they ld have heard from me deciding which approach to take depends on which printer you want to emulate q do we follow the red book or do we follow someone s implementation without a doubt there are differences between the red book and adobe s ps with level many issues have been refined but the red book does leave big big holes in the implementation specific stuff it would be nice it the red bood at least pined things down enough so that two different implementations of adobe s ps don t do the exact opposite given an identical set of conditions q pscript drv having done a lot of ps clone testing myself the unfortunate side of testing is the limited number of sources for test files the primary source we use is genoa and having characterizes their ps ats files of them over half are taken from pscript drv it may not ideal but the ats files are what the printer vendors use i m sure that adobe uses them too but adobe s output is by definition correct even if its wrong yes there are some very poor clones we ve seen them here at rastek a sub of genicom which has its own clone called geniscript some are poor for lack of design some are poor because they followed the red book and some are poor because the vendors don t know what ps is don newbold don rastek com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re procomm plus for windows problems robert j niland rjn teal csn org wrote much text deleted i have heard from several people about less expensive m f i o cards with s tsd systems for the card plus per i can vouch for this one i ordered it and got it for including s h it took me awhile to figure out how to get it working with my system but since i did i get terrific results while downloading using pcplus for windows i used to get errors if i started any other program while downloading at high speed not anymore more text deleted tom huot huot cray com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files hi everybody i guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file i can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc i used to have some unfortunately i delete them all anyway could me give me some help please thanks a lot john
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re panasonic kx p i driver in apr netnews noc drexel edu brzyckmj dunx ocs drexel edu mike writes does anyone out there know if there are print drivers for windows for the panasonic kx p i pin dot matrix printer i ve been told that panasonic has uploaded some to compu erve but i don t have a cis account i just use the epson fx driver myself and it comes out very pretty if very slowly on my i carl fink carlf panix com c fink genie or cf i liuvax bitnet facts are stubborn things and whatever may be our wishes our inclinations or the dictates of our passions they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence john adams
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re gif to bmp saz hook corp mot com scott zabolotzky writes does anybody have any idea where i could find a program that can convert a gif image into a bmp image suitable for a windows wallpaper i e colors hopefully there s something out there i can get from an ftp site somewhere thanks in advance scott scott look on ftp cica indiana edu for gws zip they embed the release number in the name and i m not sure what the lates is it is graphics workshop there is a dos and a windows version both work great i even had someone bring me some images from the amiga and converted them to great looking wallpaper as color bmp files if you can t find it repost or let me know and i ll dig up the archive dave dave campbell wynapse wynapse wynapse indirect com the shareware custom control source
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows in b b c vms csd mu edu a dubinski vms csd mu edu writes ahh yes this is a fun topic no once the name is incribed on the disk that is it it is encoded not even a hex editor will find it you can but a disk compare utility old versus new will and windows is also flexible enough at install time that you can copy all the files onto your hard disk which greatly speeds things up and makes them less annoying if you can spare the or so compressed megs write over the licensed to but you can t change the name underneth it i think if you wish to change this you would have to be a pirate and we re not going to promote that here no we re not but we re also not going to promote pandering to corporate paranoia when the real issue is convenience i don t like dealing with floppies personally i have no use for changing the registration info but i see it as a valid need and one that ought to be solved using a quick little utility rather than a half hour reinstall that s just about guaranteed to mess up your settings in one way or another so while i m not going to put much time into it myself here s the procedure for getting on your way to finding the encoded information copy all your windows disks into the directory from which you want to install it i ve been using c winstall myself from there copy that directory to something like c winorig install from c winstall comp the two directories to determine changes i e comp winorig report txt look in the report file for the file s that change assuming they didn t cover themselves covering their own tracks at least one file should have a difference noted at a particular offset locate said offset in the original directory and see what s there using a hex editor and do the same for the modified one you re on your own as far as breaking the code goes i don t really do cryptography it s probably just an xor key or something i think ms is more concerned with joe schmoe at the office personalizing his copy than with real pirates who will probably just disassemble the damned thing anyway this technique should work with just about any obnoxious corporate product that tries to write to the original floppies when you install in some extreme cases you may not be able to back the floppies up to hard disk and will be stuck doing a compare on floppies lotus stuff is probably like that as i noted before if you can afford the space on the hard disk and don t do much in the way of customization reinstalling from one directory to another may be less arduous doing some of the stuff i ve mentioned here may well void your license with microsoft as if they d ever find out if you aren t careful with the disk editor you could also mung something important duh i guess that s a disclaimer have at it rob rob kudla acm rpi edu keywords oldfield jane s leather yes win phish light blue right bondage r e m dtp steely dan ds fnm owl genesis in the spaceship the silver spaceship the lion takes control
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x win mouse cursor in apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don a b lindbergh writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond x x driver sorry don t know the version of the driver no indication in the menus but it s a recently delivered gateway system am going to try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this sporadically yes it seems to flicker or change shape into snow briefly not enough to impair functionality just call attention to diamond s professional sloppiness rob rob kudla acm rpi edu keywords oldfield jane s leather yes win phish light blue right bondage r e m dtp steely dan ds fnm owl genesis in the spaceship the silver spaceship the lion takes control
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ndw norton desktop for windows i have an ibm and run windows a friend installed norton desktop for windows on top of this it loads automatically when i type win and surely adds to the already dismally slow process of starting up i would like to know how to stop or uninstall this program i have taken it out of win ini but it still pops up running with windows i did a big search and found reference to it in ndw ini system ini and progman ini removing it here causes a failure when starting up windows progrman ini has a group ndw exe which can t be deleted is there anyone familiar with ndw who can tell me how to turn it off thanks chet please email responses i can t read news from my home account chetter ucthpx uct ac za
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	truetype fonts that display but do not print i just installed a new truetype font under ms windows but though all the applications display the font correctly on the screen quite a few of them fail to print out the document correctly on a laserjet non postscript printer when i use the font in coreldraw the document prints correctly so i assume coreldraw knows that the font has to be downloaded to the printer but when i use the windows accessory write the printer prints square boxes in place of the characters of the new font yet write does display the font correctly on the screen i looked through all the windows and laserjet manuals but got nowhere all of them just make the statement that truetype fonts will print exactly as you see them on the screen so i assume windows knows that a font has to be downloaded automatically but how to make it do that appreciate any help
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ndw norton desktop for windows in article apr leland stanford edu shiva leland stanford edu matt jacobson writes i have an ibm and run windows a friend installed norton desktop for windows on top of this it loads automatically when i type win and surely adds to the already dismally slow process of starting up i would like to know how to stop or uninstall this program is there anyone familiar with ndw who can tell me how to turn it off get the friend to uninstall it read the manual though from your post i infer that you are using pirated software go into sys ini and change the shell line to read shell progman exe daniel david mittleman danny arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re cirrus logic graph card in article qms c t news cs tu berlin de wong cs tu berlin de wolfgang jung writes after setting up windows for using my cirrus logic vlb graphicscard it moved a normal window from one place to another what i was wondering why is it not using the bitblt engine which is suuposed to be on the chip how are the experiences here have i done something wrong the has its own set of drivers you may be using the drivers intended for the or by mistake be sure you have the driver version i installed the mswin multiresolution drivers which where supplied with the card don t quote me on this one but i d steer clear of the multi resolution driver that allows you to change resolution without exiting windows i think it s buggy also if there are new hopefully faster drrivers around i would love to how to get hold of them ftp or whatsoever version drivers are due to be release by cirrus soon unfortunately their not available via ftp you have to dial up their bbs in the usa i do this from nz using a k modem to cut down on phone bills it took me around minutes to download the v driver good luck andy gardner wellington new zealand te whanga nui a tara aotearoa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows kudla acm rpi edu robert kudla writes stuff about changing windows registration omitted the damned thing anyway this technique should work with just about any obnoxious corporate product that tries to write to the original floppies when you install in some extreme cases you may not be able huh my copy of win came on permanently write protected diskettes no sliding tabs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	w w printing envelops on dj c not c i ve got a probelm with printing envelops on my deskjet c from word for windows history when i had a deskjet i had to modify the macro so that it would disable reverse printing since there seemed to be a bug that interferred with printing envelops that bug is still present however now the problem i have is that my deskjet print driver came with the printer i bought in december still wants to print the envelops in portrait mode however the deskjet feeds envelops the from the narrow end i e landscape mode how do i get the printer to print the envelops in the correct orientation please please please do not post this to the net since a due to end of the semester cruch i can t keep up on these groups and b i will summarize the best answer s to the net anyhow thanks in advance craig stevenson
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ndw norton desktop for windows in article leland stanford edu shiva leland stanford edu matt jacobson writes i have taken it out of win ini but it still pops up running with windows i did a big search and found reference to it in ndw ini system ini and progman ini removing it here causes a failure when starting up windows progrman ini has a group ndw exe which can t be deleted is there anyone familiar with ndw who can tell me how to turn it off one of the items in the group folder typically called norton desktop applications is labelled norton desktop uninstall need i say more kris b gupta cardiothoracic imaging research center dept radiology hospital of u of pennsylvania internet kris gynko circ upenn edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cool background patterns here are some cool d background patterns i made edit your control ini and add the following lines to your patterns section bricks tile tile diagonal slats make sure your desktop color is one of the standard colors or the patterns might not work i like dark grey the best with these if you have any cool one s of your own please mail them to me stefan powell spowell trentu ca peterborough ontario canada
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ndw norton desktop for windows ndw i would like to know how to stop or uninstall this program if an uninstall icon doesn t exist in the norton desktop apps group run ndw s install program with u
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re truetype fonts that display but do not print in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu avinash silver lcs mit edu avinash chopde writes i just installed a new truetype font under ms windows but though all the applications display the font correctly on the screen quite a few of them fail to print out the document correctly on a laserjet non postscript printer but when i use the windows accessory write the printer prints square boxes in place of the characters of the new font yet write does display the font correctly on the screen this is a common problem with highly complex truetype fonts microsoft admits to a problem with older versions of the postscript printer driver but i ve found it to be pretty generic you can get around the problem by adjusting the parameter outlinethreshold in the truetype section of win ini this entry specifies the number of pels per em at which windows will render truetype fonts as outline fonts instead of as bitmap fonts the default is i ve generally been able to get fonts to work by setting outlinethreshold depending on your printer resolution and the point size you are using you may need a different value the windows resource kit warns against going above presumably that might cause fonts to print as square boxes or something i m not smiling bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hercules graphite tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used a hercules graphite adapter it looks good on paper and steve gibson gave it a very good review in infoworld i d love to get a real world impression though how is the speed drivers support ntaib silver ucs indiana edu iskandar taib writes the pc world reviewers found out that the herc people had hard coded winbench text into the driver clever no in any case the winbench results are pretty much inflated two things that annoyed me about the pc magazine review their benchmarking technique is seriously flawed as was clearly shown by the graphite and gxe s cheating can t they just admit that their benchmark is to easy to optimize for and or cheat on wintach is much harder to beat the big cheat that hercules iit used was overlappipping bitblit and polyline optimization and hercules sent them a new driver which didn t do this but produced almost identical scores yet the only thing pc magazine says is that scores are not legitimate couldn t they at least make some comment about its real world performance i m not so much going by winbench for performance but rather by steve gibson s results which are more real world based like using micrografx draw to benchmark if you believe gibson that is he writes despite these documented cheats i have to say that in real world applications the hercules graphite adapter actually draws faster than any other display adapter in the industry even though it s just a modest isa bus card it outperformed every local bus adapter i have including the stealth vlb the fahrenheit va vlb the ati vlb mach and even the weitek p based diamond viper vlb this kind of praise is enough for me to be interested in it bogus winbench or not when and if you get one send me mail i might buy that ati gu off you i already returned the ati gu my dealer had sold eight of them and seven were returned to him i m now temporarily back to running an original ati gu until i get my graphite and yes the gu is faster in my mb system than the gu especially in bitmap handling that s where you use bitblits hercules has a promotion available for vars and software developers you can buy one graphite or graphite vlb for off list to try it out at just for graphite or for the vlb version i decided it was worth trying i m supposed to get the vlb board within two weeks i ll post my impressions when i get it tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows in apr trintex uucp charles tinman dev prodigy com writes have you tried re installing the software otherwise i would be dubious about simple ways to change that screen is it not designed to be an embarassment to would be pirates so when is prodigy going to open the doors for inetgate to accept internet mail eh obviously if you can post news mail should go through as well carlos dominguez sysadmin kibbitzer carlos carlos jpr com carlos carlos uucp carlos carlos bang
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	what about smartdrv double buffer i am curious what does the double buffer parameter in smartdrv actually do for me i seem to have less problems in windows when i leave it out using a ps with an esdi drive but also a ps with a scsi any response is welcome peter sweeney psweeney miavx acs muohio edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winhelp exe virus is anyone familiar with a virus that infects the winhelp exe file i have recently noticed some unusual system behavior and ran norton antivirus for windows it indicated a possible unknown virus in the winhelp exe file in both the mwindows and winos directories neither file changed since i installed my os system in january as far as i know any information about this possible virus and suggestions on remedies would be greatly appreciated bobb samuell samuell cis uab edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	qestion about amipro demo files on cica hello i have a question about the demo files for amipro v uploaded in cica i downloaded it and tryied to install it however it didn t work in addition it altered or eliminated my nwres dll file so that i had to reinstall my norton desktop again is there anything i have to know to install it or do i eventually have to ask lotus to send a working model to me i heard that they have it i just want to see its look and feel before buying it any pointer would be greatly appreciated thank you hiroto miyoshi psych toronto edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re postscript view for dos or windows where can i find the ms windows version of ghostscript thanks in article hjstein apr sunrise huji ac il hjstein sunrise huji ac i l harvey j stein writes i ve been using version of ghostscript and i m quite satisfied with it there are actually versions a plain dos version a version and a windows version harvey stein hjstein math huji ac il m
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re x emulator a posting in another news group i read a while ago said that pc xview and pc xremote allow you to use xterm call ncd for more info hope it helps hao hao zhang dept of stat wharton school univ of penn zhang wharton upenn edu hzhang compstat wharton upenn edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	last i have two questions i have been having troubles with my wordperfect for windows when i try to select and change fonts etc some of the text disappears i tried to center two lines once and the second line disappeared i can not find the error and i do not know how to correct it is this the right newsgroup where should i go e mail prefered who else is still waiting for naked gun part pi nathan narloch alumn whscdp whs edu enforcer burp or narlochn kirk msoe edu milw wi join the official psycho team
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos font size in windows i have an a card and i am using windows in x mode normal a font not small in the enhanced mode the dos window font is too small for my monitor is there a way to spacify the font size for the dos window you ll have to excuse me if there is a trivial answer since i am fairly new to ms windows world thanks please include this message for reference s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h w
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need help with wordperfect for windows i have two questions i have been having troubles with my wordperfect for windows when i try to select and change fonts etc some of the text disappears i tried to center two lines once and the second line disappeared i can not find the error and i do not know how to correct it is this the right newsgroup where should i go e mail prefered who else is still waiting for naked gun part pi nathan narloch alumn whscdp whs edu enforcer burp or narlochn kirk msoe edu milw wi join the official psycho team
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet hello fellow netters i am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer i should purchase the canon bj bubblejet vs the hp deskjet i thought rather than trust the salesperson i would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential and i figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson now i would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the dpi of the canon bubblejet vs the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which is faster is there a noticeable print quality difference particularly in graphics which will handle large documents better pages or more any personal experience on either will be appreciated here which works better under windows any driver problems etc cost of memory font packages toner cartridges etc basically your personal experiences with either of these machines is highly desirable both good and bad advance kudos and thanks for all your input e mail or news posting is readily acceptable but e mail is encouraged limits bandwidth sincerely robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu or cpa cs stanford edu in theory theory and practice are the same in practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision of the original revised revision revised
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	anyone use number gxe video card has anyone used the number nine video graphics adaptor with windows or windows nt what do you think c
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	keyboard specifications to all hardware and firmware gurus my current home project is to build a huge paddle keyboard for a physically handicapped relative of mine my goal is for this keyboard to look exactly like an at sytle keyboard to its host system this will be a highly endowed keyboard with a little pcl from z world at its heart the only thing i lack is detailed information on the hardware signaling that the with windows and dos will be expecting my project is independant of windows my hope is that some of you fellow window s users programmers will recognize what i need and be willing to point me in the right direction i have the winn l rosch hardware bible nd edition the hb gives most if not all of the information i will need concerning scan codes and even a wire diagram for the ps style connector i will need but it leaves a number of important questions unanswered is it synchronous or asynchronous serial communication i m guessing synchronous since the host is providing a clock in either event how is the data framed is it half duplex or truly one way i m guessing half duplex since the host can turn leds on and off are there any chipsets available for communicating with the at keyboard standard other than by cannibalizing a real keyboard if anyone knows of a book or article or any other written source of information on the above please advise me at gamet erg sri com whatever i do it must be safe for i cannot afford to replace the in the event of a booboo thank you for your time danke fuer ihre zeit thomas gamet gamet erg sri com software engineer sri international
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	page numbering problem with wfw canon bj e i am using wfw c with a canon bj e the printer driver is that which comes with windows unfortatunately i am having a problem with printing page numbers on the bottom of the page i can print page number on the top of the page but not on the bottom has anybody had a similar problem and or does anybody have a solution for such a problem thanks pwoodcoc business uwo ca pwoodcoc sms business uwo ca c patrick woodcock western business school london ontario
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re gui application frameworks for windows in apr cimlinc uucp bharper cimlinc uucp brett harper writes hello i m investigating the purchase of an object oriented application framework i have come across a few that look good zapp from inmark zinc from zinc software c views from liant win from blaise some considerations i m using being new to windows programming i m from the unix x world the quality and intuitivness of the abstraction that these class libraries provide is very important however since i m not adverse to learning the internals of windows programming the new programming methodology should be closely aligned with the native one i don t believe arbitrary levels of abstraction just for the sake of changing the api are valuable the microsoft founation classes afx that come with c c and visual c are very good they already have a version for nt it comes with source code and is very close to the navtive api it also as some classes to manage data structures stefan stefan olson mail stefan olson acme gen nz kindness in giving creates love
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	is ms windows a mature os hi have you used mac system x or x if the answer is positive you would know if ms windows is a mature os days ago people doubted that ms windows is not a real os i can see why they have such question ms windows confuses many people microsoft simulated mac but it did a lousy job for example you can not create hierarchy groups there is no way to create a group in a group if you know how please tell me too many system parameters to take care of uncomplete documentation it s not easy to find the reason why causes an unpredictable error group deleting file deleting after deleting a group users have to use file manager to delete files but if users forget to delete some related files the disk will be full of nonsense files share problem once you create two windows doing compilation and editing in some language w o good editor there will be a sharing problem you just can not open or save the program if it is loaded it makes sense to prevent from saving but not opening microsoft try to compromise between dos and windows but they just make ms windows a graphical dos with capacity doing mutiple dos jobs the worst thing is they complicate the environment the orginal purpose of ms windows should be to simplify the environment and make pc easier to use it s by no means easy to satisfy everybody but if microsoft want to keep their reputations they should evaluate the user interface more carefully before products distribute no flame please jesse e mail cyen cs unt edu ic sol acs unt edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how do i make ghostscript work you need gs ini zip and zip and zip font files you can get these from wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos postscript i also advice you to get gs gui zip from cica it is a nice interface for ghostscript ghostscript is very user unfriendly this interface makes it user friendly for using this interface you have to get vbrun dll from risc ua edu pub network misc copy this to your windows directory copy gui executables and other files to your ghostscript directory and anter the line below to your autoexec bat set gs lib c your ghostscript and gui directory now you are ready to use it enjoy it in article apr ulkyvx louisville edu cl ulkyvx louisvill e edu steve w brewer writes what files do i need to download for ghostscript i have never used ghostscript before so i don t have any files for it what i do have is gs win zip which i downloaded from cica unfortunately it doesn t seem to work on it s own but needs some more files that i don t have i want to run ghostscript both in windows and in ms dos on a pc i understand there s versions for both environments what are all the files i need to download and where can i get them any info would be appeciated steve w brewer rewerb w evets cl ulkyvx louisville edu ude ellivsiuol xvyklu lc m
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re dos font size in windows in article apr ncsu edu ssa unity ncsu edu s alavi writes normal a font not small in the enhanced mode the dos window font is too small for my monitor is there a way to spacify the font size for the dos window you ll have to excuse me if there is a trivial answer since i am fairly new to ms windows world thanks s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h first of all without wanting to sound nagging and bossy yes it is a trivial answer and that s perfectly fine otherwise how is one supposed to move up to the complicated and challenging questions we net readers so much enjoy and the massive crossposting of your article was not justified please refer to appropriate newsgroups next time by the way c o msw misc is ok now as far as your problem is concerned try playing around with the settings in the fonts dialog box under the window control menu that little square at the top left corner of the window costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua opinions expressed are not necessarily oit s internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is ms windows a mature os to get hierarchical icon groups in ms windows use norton desktop for windows ms windows in not mature it s lousy but its supposed to be lousy it s goal is to be ubiquitous not good ms windows is the course for the masses in it infrastructure dos cp m unix was the course for the cogniscenti in it infrastructure together they prove that there is good effect of good it and there is good effect of ubiquitous it what we need now is both at a significiantly higher level of function posix dce corba see the problem nt may be it infrastructure but it will also be it monopoly was ibm we have a conundrum gentlepeople what are we going to do about it dubious lee lee d rothstein veritech merrymeeting drive merrimack nh fax information technology verification leadership
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc ghhwang csie nctu edu tw form r o c taiwan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need video drivers for tseng true color hello i purchased a video card called et true color card which can provide about k colors but the question is i can t find the corresponding drivers for windows i am now using k colors driver for win it works fine but i think it will be better if i use k driver so please tell me whether such a driver is available thanks in advance forever michael jordan tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu tw
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can i only insert color pics in wfw well the subject says just about all i intended to ask is there no way to insert a color into wfw when i try it the picture turns into a color pic jonni
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	internal speaker driver this probably is in a faq somewhere but i m looking for microsoft s internal speaker sound driver for windows should be at microsoft s ftp site but i can t remember the name of the site thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is ms windows a mature os in article cyen ponder jesse writes hi have you used mac system x or x if the answer is positive you would know if ms windows is a mature os days ago people doubted that ms windows is not a real os i can see why they have such question ms windows confuses many people microsoft common complaints about ms windows deleted jesse e mail cyen cs unt edu ic sol acs unt edu hmmmm why do i get the feeling that this is gonna start one of those endless threads mac vs win and might even end up as os vs win well i dont know if windows is a mature os if i have seen one in which case that has to be x windows but dont be so quick to judge first of all to try to use plain vanilla windows is as courageous as to try to use plain vanilla dos there are lots of very nice commercial and shareware packages utilities that will boost up windows past what ms itself thought possible for example norton desktop for windows a replace ment for progman will give you group within a group capability and will even change group icons it will launch progs by association well fileman does that too or by dragging the file in the apps icon now mac doesnt do that huh and the list goes on and on now windows is kinda hard to finetune boost and configure but thats trhe price to pay for not paying to get a mac or an os capable machine an entirely differet story on the other hand if you dont like the idea of pm s icons not correspnding to the files themselves well they are not supposed to pm is a program launching utility not a file manager modify your settings to have fm as your shell and not pm or get a couple of utilities from cica that supposedly give you a mac feel i dont wanna get in the discussion which is a better system mac s are good in their own way they are different not better or worse than win pcs actually i am writing this from a mac lab as a user assistant so dont think i am partial to win by all means check out the stuff in cica ftp to ftp cica indiana edu under the pub pc win subdir user anonymous or wait for startrek mac s os on a pc the threads we are gonna have then just trying to avoid another mac win war costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua opinions expressed are not necessarily oit s internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	midi files on ms win and soundblaster i have a dx computer with a soundblaster card i m running microsoft windows v i have the sb driver set up properly to play normal sounds wav files etc i want to play midi files through the media player that is included with windows i know i have to set up the patch maps or something in the midi mapper in the control panel i know nothing about midi this is to be the way i ll get my feet wet how do i set up windows so that i can play midi files david thomas dudek v pwxs ubvms bitnet the cybard state university dudek sun acsu buffalo edu of new york if music be the food of love buffalo play on wm shakespeare
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	any video gurus feel like attacking this quirk hi there i m having a bizarre video problem within windows i have a with a gvga video board i ve been using the standard windows vga driver with other similarly configured computers i am thinking that my problem is with the way windows refreshes it s screen the problem is that once windows has been envoked the colors start changing themselves at first i thought it was hardware but if you open a full screen dos program from within the windows session you don t have any problems until you get back to windows however when you initially return to windows the original colors get refreshed properly also it is not a uniform color change so if you are in solitaire the design on the back of the card maintains it s original color scheme but the white fronts of the cards will turn grey then blue etc the color changes keep getting darker until finally everything is a dark purple ish black if you pop out to dos and exit back to windows the screen gets refreshed again if i don t log into windows and just do dos things from the novell network everything is fine i originally loaded the software by bouncing it down to the net from the other machine i had just finished configuring then from the net to this machine when i ran into problems i deleted everything on this machine and the net and tried bouncing it again when that didn t work i tried reloading windows to no avail any thoughts on things to check out i am totally baffled thanks in advance for any assistance and instruction linda cornell lcornell u washington edu uw office of research
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it in article bcf c a deneva sdd trw com reimert etdesg trw com scott p reimert writes somewhere in this thread it has been said that windows nt tm is a multi user os as well as multi threading etc i certainly haven t seen this to be the case there are seperate accounts for each person and even seperate directories if that is desired i don t see an implentation of simultaneuos use though scott it certainly is multi user what i have seen from the march beta is that it doesn t yet come with the stuff which exploits multi user features i remember somebody from ms stating that it doesn t allow two users share one gui my interpretation of this was that one user per console but all the networking and rpc based stuff you want i believe ftp and rlogin deamons for nt systems will come from third party somebody already has a beta version of an unsecure ftpd on the net there is no reason why one cannot write a posix based shell like csh on unix for remote logins in general i liked nt when i checked it out it slow compared to win just like any other real os the beta version although being slow botts up much faster than my sun workstation windows subsystems also start up a lot faster than x windows i believe bill gates was right when he stated that nt was not for everybody after playing around with it for a while i was convinced if i owned a busines using a business computer from ibm or some other established vendor i would consider moving to nt platform because it would provide a much cheaper solution if you are running sql servers etc it provides the robustness such an application requires on the other hand if you like your dos games more or less forget about nt you can always boot to dos but in general that defeats the purpose of using nt most of nt s features are visible in a networked environment and in such an environment you can t reboot your machine at will for personal use i would rather wait for the win based windows release whatever you name it than jump to nt bandwagon i expect most applications will keep on using win until win becomes widely available sadun anik u of illinois at urbana champaign center for reliable and high performance computing e mail anik crhc uiuc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need help with wp for windows in article apr kirk msoe edu narlochn kirk msoe edu writes i have two questions i have been having troubles with my wordperfect for windows when i try to select and change fonts etc some of the text disappears i tried to center two lines once and the second line disappeared i can not find the error and i do not know how to correct it is this the right newsgroup where should i go e mail prefered i know you said e mail preferred but because this is a common problem with wpwin i ll post it here the screen only looks like the text is gone usually you can just page up then page down and when it does a complete refresh the text reappears i have had on rare occasions to completely exit save first the program when i reopened the file all chaos had been resolved i don t know why it does this but it is annoying the graphics problems have now made me a word for windows user
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need video drivers for tseng true color tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw wrote hello i purchased a video card called et true color card which can provide about k colors but the question is i can t find the corresponding drivers for windows i am now using k colors driver for win it works fine but i think it will be better if i use k driver so please tell me whether such a driver is available thanks in advance i am sorry my card can display about k colors not k colors i hope some one could answer my question thanks forever michael jordan tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu tw
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ftp tool for windows is there any one know what is the ftp tool for windows and where to get the tool thanks for any help h j
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fahrenheit problems help hi i recently bought an orchid fahrenheit it s a real nice card but i m having very big problems with it the basic problem is that vertical lines are missing from the display in windows something like every other line or so also when i use a dos gif viewer namely vpic c in fahrenheit mode vertical lines are swapped it s very strange looking if it uses vesa standards however it works great only it thinks there s only k on the card there s mb on there i have contacted orchid support and they tried to be helpful but didn t have the answer i don t think the card is the problem since it works great on my friend s computer here is my setup fahrenheit mb bios opti chipset ami bios mb ram maxtor mb harddrive slave maxtor mb harddrive master panasonic c monitor version windows drivers windows i tried taking all memory managers etc off and took all other cards besides disk controller off my friend s setup is sx shamrock monitor if anyone has seen anything like this or can otherwise help i will be very greatful please send e mail to tdarugar tartarus ucsd edu or tdarugar ebon ucsd edu tony
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win hang help problem mhz hangs in extended mode trying to access drives a or b sometimes it will do dir sometimes will hang on access sometimes will when tying a text file hardware american megatrend motherboard ami bios conner mb hard drive trident meg svga please help its ok in standard mode
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win config sys query hi there with a megs of ram is there a need to run load smartdrv for windows if yes can i run load ramdrive without smartdrv if i need both ramdrive smartdrv is the following config sys settings ok smartdrv sys ramdrive sys e thanks in advance for e mail reply yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted info on asymetrix toolbook does anyone know the phone and fax number of the asymetrix corporation i am also interested in their e mail address i would also like to know what the current status of their product toolbook is i received the last update about year ago are their any new developments or is toolbook slowly dying regards rob de winter nothing beats skiing if you want to have real fun during holidays rob de winter philips research ist it building wl p o box ja eindhoven the netherlands tel e mail dewinter prl philips nl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re dos font size in windows s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu wrote i have an a card and i am using windows in x mode normal a font not small in the enhanced mode the dos window font is too small for my monitor is there a way to spacify the font size for the dos window you ll have to excuse me if there is a trivial answer since i am fairly new to ms windows world thanks please include this message for reference s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h w as i can recall you can click on the upper left button of dos window then choose font to change also there is a demo window to show you in advance how the font you choose will affect the size of dos window make a try
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted xterm emulator for windows hello i am looking for a xterm emulator which runs under windows please reply via e mail thanks chera bekker h g bekker e mail bekker tn utwente nl faculty of applied physics voice university of twente fax the netherlands
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x win mouse cursor dabl nlm nih gov don a b lindbergh writes in article apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don a b lindbergh writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond x x driver sorry don t know the version of the driver no indication in the menus but it s a recently delivered gateway system am going to try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this as a followup this is a co worker s machine he has the latest drivers it only happens using the x x driver sometimes it takes a minute or so for the cursor to wig out but it eventually does in this mode i susect something is stepping on memory the video card wants i excluded a c ff in the emm line and in system ini the problem persisted perhaps it is something specific to the gateway machine or it s components it is a mhz dx eisa bus with an ultrastore xx controller ah well i was hoping this was some kind of known problem or somebody had seen it before perhaps a call to gateway is in order but i do find folks here usually are far more in the know i have had several problems with the card applications crashed when moving the mouse vga mode fixed by removing the line stacks from config sys the default value stacks does just fine random white pixels all over the screen when moving the mouse in a color graphical mode the hardware cursor modes fixed by turning off the hardware scroll xmode scrolloff before entering the graphics mode this also fixed the problem of the windowed dos boxes under windows with the hardware scroll enabled applications write garbage outside the window the screensavers do not remove the cursor in color modes hardware cursor i don t know if this is a windows problem or a driver problem clearly there should be two types of cursor removing functions a remove for draw which can be ignored for hardware cursors and a remove unconditionally do other cards with hardware cursors have the same problem the vesa driver does not support the x x m truecolor mode universal vesa drivers do not run at all disclaimer unless otherwise stated the above comments are entirely my own jan van loenen digital equipment corporation jvl idca tds philips nl hlde loenen j
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	emm exe and windows and dos in windows i created a permanent swap file of kb as win recommended me to do that bit access if i use emm exe after win startup i have k of memory free if i leave emm exe out of my config sys i have k of memory free and windows recommends me a swap file of k i use dos with memmaker have mb of internal memory and a dx does anybody knows why this is happening possibly win needs some umb s to manage virtual memory if true which umb s those that emm can find without including suspicious parts i need an optimized dos environment because i develop applications for dos using a windows programming environment rudi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win hang eng eng monash edu au charles choong writes help problem mhz hangs in extended mode trying to access drives a or b sometimes it will do dir sometimes will hang on access sometimes will when tying a text file hardware american megatrend motherboard ami bios conner mb hard drive trident meg svga please help its ok in standard mode i have the same problem someone suggested it might be a bios bug gonna check with my supplier tomorrow i ll tell you if it helps wouter
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re win nt what is it anyway don t expect it soon windows and dos are supposed to my understanding was that chicago was dos be released next year read see it in so i expect that chicogo won t be out til dominic drohan email drohand cad gmeds com electronic data systems phone if you d like to talk for hours just go ahead now the spin doctors note the views and opinions expressed herein are mine and do not reflect those of electronic data systems corp
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ftp site for wav files hello everybody are there any ftp sites with wav files available frode kvam c name frode kvam univ university of trondheim dept of informatics e mail frode ifi unit no snail mail lademoens kirkealle trondheim voice beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	moving icons i remember reading about a program that made windows icons run away from the mouse as it moved near them does anyone know the name of this program and the ftp location probably at cica kirk membry our age is the age of industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pixel font i m looking for a font that looks like pixels off of a monitor not the lcd kind of font though does anyone know where i can get one kirk membry our age is the age of industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re anyone use number gxe video card in article npg sd sandiegoca ncr com claborne npg sd sandiegoca ncr com chris claborne writes has anyone used the number nine video graphics adaptor with windows or windows nt what do you think i just put one in my machine last week i have an ast i was getting million winmarks with my diamond ss and the board is doing million winmarks from my brief experiences with it i m very satisfied btw this is with win marc snyder uucp philabs crpmks marcs system administrator ciba geigy corporation hawthorne new york work play
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need help setting pif for games hi there i have a few games that i d like to run under windows and can t get the pifs adjusted right for example wing commander in my dos prompt i have more than k available for programs this is enough to run wc so i build a pif giving wc a couple of megs of extended memory etc and run it wc prompts loading wing commander and then a message about using extended memory etc and then my screen goes black just before the opening scene the orchestra would have appeared i also have a pool game that does almost the same thing it opens up and prompts me for what kind of video driver i have cga ega etc i respond ega and the screen goes black on both of these a ctrl alt del getss me back to windows has anyone run wing commander under windows or has had the problems i describe and fixed them here s the rest of my setup mb disk free mb memory free during win session dx respond here or on e mail if anyone else needs this info send me mail in a couple of days and i ll forward the replies to you clinton a pierce cartesian bear polar bear after coordinate transform clintp world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc some people say it s fun but i think it s very serious eugene macadam mpce mq edu au
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	window start up position for app how how do you set up an app to give its window a default start up position and size mike hayes knowledge is good faber college motto www knowledge and thoroughness rensselear poly motto unemployed tech no thank you groucho marx a day at the races driven to banging my head against engineering physics for years
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wanted info on asymetrix toolbook in article apr prl philips nl dewinter prl philips nl rob de winter writes does anyone know the phone and fax number of the asymetrix corporation i am also interested in their e mail address i would also like to know what the current status of their product toolbook is i received the last update about year ago are their any new developments or is toolbook slowly dying regards rob de winter nothing beats skiing if you want to have real fun during holidays rob de winter philips research ist it building wl p o box ja eindhoven the netherlands tel e mail dewinter prl philips nl rob their e mail adress is support asymetrix com i ve heard v is in beta have a look at bitserv list toolb l which is a toolbook list regards olaf winkelhake
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re borland s paradox offer i am considering buying borland s paradox for windows since i would like to use a database with windows i don t have use one yet for both work home use i would like to advantage of borland s until april offer if this package is everything that borland claims it to be so i was wondering has anybody used this and or have any opinions tom belmonte i ve been using ms access still available from some stores for and i am quite pleased with it it s relatively easy to learn very easy to use and somewhat easy to program i highly recomend it particularly at i have not used paradox for windows but i don t expect it to be better than access imho dave
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winword and quattro pro problems on a notebook hello i have a sx notebook with windows running fine winword and quattro pro for windows also work fine when no virtual memory is used switching on the virtual memory option these programs probably others too don t work the system crashes the same programs work well with arbitrary virtual memory on two other desktop pc s what am i doing wrong if you can help please mail to me directly if possible thank you very much in advance stefan stefan k kolodzie heinrich heine university institute for general psychology duesseldorf germany e mail kolodzie ze rz uni duesseldorf de
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how do i quickly switch between windows screen resolutions can someone out there tell me how to switch window s screen resolution quickly and easily i know that i can go back into install to do it but what i d really like is to have is the ability to just change a couple of startup or configuration files and have the resolution changed i already have both video drivers that i need on my system so that isn t a problem thanks sean sean l gilley sean l gilley att com use this address all others bounce h w
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to transfer to video tape hi all i m asking for info on behalf of a friend is there what would be the best way to copy the output of a monitor on to video tape any ideas please prescribe additional hardware and or software i m just assuming an intel windows environment thanks in advance jerry help support dam jerry w johnson struggling csci grad student jwjohn ecst csuchico edu is there any other kind mothers against dyslexia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	okidata printer driver i have an okidata printer for which i would like to have a printer driver has anyone seen such a thing there is not one on the microsoft bbs i can print to it from windows but i have no fonts available and with paradox for windows i can t print labels on it unless there is a proper printer defined thanks bryan k ward survey research center university of utah i mail bryan src sbs utah edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond speedstar driver for v i am looking for a win driver or set for my diamond speedstar mb video card does anybody know of an archive site that has these i looked at cica and it had drivers for the stealth card and for generic et cards but not one specifically for the speedstar is there one or has diamond dropped the speedstar out of the driver development loop thanks for any info rob robert mee boston university information technology rem bu it bu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it in article bcf c a deneva sdd trw com reimert etdesg trw com scott p reimert writes somewhere in this thread it has been said that windows nt tm is a multi user os as well as multi threading etc i certainly haven t seen this to be the case there are seperate accounts for each person and even seperate directories if that is desired i don t see an implentation of simultaneuos use though since running any gui over a network is going to slow it down by a fair amount i expect windows nt will be multiuser only in the sense of sharing filesystems someone will likely write a telnetd for it so one could run character based apps but graphics based apps will have to be shared by running the executables on the local cpu this is how things are shaping up everywhere client server architectures are taking over from the old cpu terminal setups note that the next does this you can always telnet into a next and run character based apps but you can t run the gui yeah i know about x windows just haven t been too impressed by it iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re dos font size in windows ssa unity ncsu edu s alavi writes i have an a card and i am using windows in x mode normal a font not small in the enhanced mode the dos window font is too small for my monitor is there a way to spacify the font size for the dos window you ll have to excuse me if there is a trivial answer since i am fairly new to ms windows world thanks please include this message for reference s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h w the control box of the window itself upper left corner of the window single click am i being too simplistic has a font option the x is about the biggest one i can use without the characters turning funky hpoe this helps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows nt faq in article c dhtf d p news rich bnr ca gal bnr ca gene lavergne writes i really gives me pause to ask this when i first heard of windows nt i was surprised by the name because it immediately occurred to me that it sounds like a northern telecom product did anyone else notice that by the way bnr see address below is an r d subsidiary of nt see what i mean gal bnr ca gene a lavergne in all of opera i most identify esn with the character of elektra po box richardson tx that often worries me usa opinions expressed here are mine and not bnr s windows nt or wnt can also be derived by the next letter in the alphabet of vms same as hal and ibm you might recall that the chief architect of vms is also chief designer of wnt rajiev gupta rajiev gupta eurocontrol cfmu disclaimer rajiev cfmu eurocontrol be rue de la loi these are my views tel b bruxelles not my companies fax belgium
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re questions about windows nt help in article c cq fc ms uky edu shan ms uky edu minghua shan writes i don t know much about windows nt but i ve always thought that win nt would run only on intel compatable systems we are setting up a network which includes a sun sparc server and about a dozen pc s some people suggest that we run windows nt on the sun sparc server replacing the current os sunos i don t know whether this is possible and whether this would do us any good i would appreciate any help on answering a few questions below does windows nt run on sun sparc server if the answer to question is yes does it run unix applications such as sas for unix is windows nt a multiuser os when will windows nt be released is there any telephone number that i can call and get more info on win nt thank you minghua shan as far as i have read win nt will be supported on intel dec alpha and the mips r series of processors only i do remember though reading a rumour about sparc support sometime in the future i am not sure what you mean by running unix applications you would have to have sas for win nt or maybe sas for win etc i have read that ms will anounce avalaibility of win nt by end of may comdex spring hope this helps rajiev gupta rajiev gupta eurocontrol cfmu disclaimer rajiev cfmu eurocontrol be rue de la loi these are my views tel b bruxelles not my companies fax belgium
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows keeps crashing please help in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes from ebosco us oracle com eric bosco subject windows keeps crashing please help date fri apr gmt as the subjects says windows keeps crashing givinh me gpf on me of late it was never a very stable package but now it seems to crash every day the worst part about it is that it does not crash consistently ie i there is a way in sys ini to turn off ram parity checking unfortunately my good windows references are at home but any standard win reference will tell you how to do it if not email back to me that weird memory may be producing phony parity errors danger is if you turn checkling off you run the slight risk of data corruption due to a missed real error
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc in article qu ud hd sunb ocs mq edu au eugene mpce mq edu au writes in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc i hope this will clear it up taken from one of my lecture notes the alternative approach to cisc which has been adopted by many in recent years has come to be known as risc the reduced instruction set computer this can be characterised simply as simpler is faster by simplifying the design e g by reducing the variety of instructions addressing modes the hardware can be designed to run faster even at the cost of needing more instructions the same task can be done more quickly by the simpler faster design a typical risc processor will o provide a large number of registers e g o perform all data operations on registers o provide few addressing modes e g immediate or register offset o only allow load store operations to access memory o only use a few instruction formats o only support a few data types e g integer unsigned floating steffi beckhaus janet steffi beckhaus uk ac newcastle if the odds are a million to one against something occurring chances are it will
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fax software for windows i would like to know about the current fax software available for windows does it take a baud fax modem or k please respond with info thank you very much chad toelle toelle evansville edu s st philip rd or mt vernon in uunet evansville edu toelle
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files in article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu writes hi everybody i guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file i can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc i used to have some unfortunately i delete them all i downloaded the compuserve gif of the month a raytraced image of a golf ball next to a hole very nice x x bitmap easily converted to a windows bmp if anyone wants i could upload a copy on cica eric eric trepanier internet eric tgm cam org ci grenon o laval quebec h n m everybody has a right to believe in something canada i believe i ll have another beer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re using microsoft foundation classes with borland c hi all has anybody tried to compile ctrltest from the mfc samples directory after compiling the mfc libs with bwc seems to me that bwc isn t able to distinguish pointers to overloaded functions for example imagine the following overloaded functions void same name void void same name int after trying the whole day i think with bwc its impossible to take the adress of one of the above two functions and assign it to a properly defined function pointer am i right has anybody else had this problem thanx
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re anyone know stacker s email address does anybody know if stacker has a e mail address and if so what it is i know they have a bbs and something on compuserve but i m hoping someone know s their e mail address john white from stac electronics can be reached at compuserv as for me compuserve com would as email address work from internet internet ffritze hpwbe wad hp com phone germany address fromut fritze waldbronn analytic division r d hewlett packard str d waldbronn germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need help writing ms excel macro for each student do begin lowest score found max possible value for i to number of assignments do begin if score i lowest score found then lowest score found score i end total score sum all scores lowest score found end couldn t you simply use min as you use sum and than subtract it from sum internet ffritze hpwbe wad hp com phone germany address fromut fritze waldbronn analytic division r d hewlett packard str d waldbronn germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win startup screen downgraded to win startup screen hhhheeeellllpppp meeeeeee i installed a color svga driver for my windows last week this driver was downloaded from ftp cica indiana edu specifically for paradise svga card however after i installed it and when i run windows the startup screen in the beginning becomes the old windows startup screen everything works fine except the startup screen i know the startup screen must have been changed in the system ini file or is it but i couldn t figure out what to alter can some one help me with this please e mail to my address thang tree egr uh edu or thang jetson uh edu in addition can anyone know where can i get a x paradise svga driver color this is a used computer and i do not have anything drivers etc regarding the driver thanks in advance o
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re borland s paradox offer i am considering buying borland s paradox for windows since i would like to use a database with windows i don t have use one yet for both work home use i would like to advantage of borland s until april offer if this package is everything that borland claims it to be so i was wondering has anybody used this and or have any opinions tom belmonte if you are interested in a program which is very easy to use i strongly suggest approach it is extremely easy to use make reports etc i own both it and paradox and i almost never use paradox if you need to build up a complicated application then paradox is the way to go i have heard horror stories about the access programming being extremely cryptic since you seem like you will probably be doing fairly small stuff work home use and you have not used a database before i recommend approach i have found only one small thing which i would like it to do more easily i have one database where the order in which the records are entered must be different than what is the logical ordering to permanently reorder to use the old dbase iii command the records requires sorting the records appropriately no problem since i almost always use them in this order exporting the database to another database which can still be an approach database and then copying the exported files back to the original filename this is a small weakness considering the other items i really like about approach it is also a little slower than paradox other than the loading paradox takes forever and a minute to load paradox also takes a lot of memory both hard disk around mb and ram greg bishop bishop baeyer chem fsu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how do i quickly switch between windows screen resolutions in article c qlr djl cbnewsl cb att com slg slgsun att com the idealistic cynic writes can someone out there tell me how to switch window s screen resolution quickly and easily i know that i can go back into install to do it sean l gilley take a look at ftp cica indiana edu at pub pc win util misc for a program caleld vswitch zip it s as close to want you want as you can get in win hope it helps costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua opinions expressed are not necessarily oit s internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond speedstar driver for v in article bu edu rem buitc bu edu robert mee writes i am looking for a win driver or set for my diamond speedstar mb video card the diamond bbs has these their baud bbs phone number is their baud bbs phone number is sorry i don t know of any ftp site that has these though i d be surprised if there wasn t one
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files in article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu writes hi everybody i guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file i can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc i used to have some unfortunately i delete them all eric hmmm let s see i could upload some bmp files i have around b w and color ones but i d rather give you the fishing pole instead of the fish here it goes begginers guide to the coolest windows backgrounds step ftp to cica ftp cica indiana edu user anonymous passwd guest cd to pub pc win util desktop and get one of these wingif zip pspro zip gws zip they will scale dither and convert gifs to bmps get the index file from the win subdir too for future reference step ftp to wuarchive wustl edu or plaza aarnet edu au or archive orst edu and cd to graphics gif get the index file now gigabytes of pictures are waiting to become your desktop advice if you have a slow computer dx w mb ram make your bg b w by selecting b w dither in any of the abovementioned apps hope it helps costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua opinions expressed are not necessarily oit s internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re using microsoft foundation classes with borland c in article qv rc fcp news cs tu berlin de make cs tu berlin de m kerkhoff writes hi all has anybody tried to compile ctrltest from the mfc samples directory after compiling the mfc libs with bwc seems to me that bwc isn t able to distinguish pointers to overloaded functions for example imagine the following overloaded functions void same name void void same name int after trying the whole day i think with bwc its impossible to take the adress of one of the above two functions and assign it to a properly defined function pointer am i right has anybody else had this problem thanx i think you may be chasing the wrong problem i don t think it is the function overloading at all i do that sort of thing all of the time in bc without a hitch the big problems i have encountered in porting mfc to bc is that fact that mfc depends on a couple of invalid c assumptions i have never gotten the entire ctrltest app to run under bc but the reason is that ms makes some bad assumptions about the order in which static global objects are initialized i e some objects are getting accessed before they are initialized the problem is in the owner draw menu code somewhere if you comment out that section all other pieces of ctrltest work fine two other major gotchas i have found using mfc under bc the cfile openflags enum uses hard coded numbers for the open mode rather than the manifest constants defined in fcntrl h which differ between msc and bc all of the mfc collection classes depend on another bad c assumption that a reference to a base object can used be in place of a reference to a derived object true for pointers not for references i am sure there are other problems along the same lines but i have not encountered them yet i have not seen mfc yet but i hope that some of these will be addressed if they are not all of ms s hype about portability to other vendor s compilers will be just that if these were my employer s opinions i wouldn t be posting them whoever said nothing lasts forever was obviously r brendler not a cubs fan mike royko spss inc chicago il
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows keeps crashing please help in article qur h qrl access digex net wild access digex com wildstrom writes in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes from ebosco us oracle com eric bosco subject windows keeps crashing please help date fri apr gmt as the subjects says windows keeps crashing givinh me gpf on me of late it was never a very stable package but now it seems to crash every day the worst part about it is that it does not crash consistently ie i there is a way in sys ini to turn off ram parity checking unfortunately my good windows references are at home but any standard win reference will tell you how to do it if not email back to me that weird memory may be producing phony parity errors danger is if you turn checkling off you run the slight risk of data corruption due to a missed real error i had this very same problem and did work around by turning parity checking off but that only worked while i was in windows and the parity error would occur immediately after exiting windows however the problem turned out to be chip simms vs chip simms i can t use chip simms in my computer and when i replaced them the problem vanished forever
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re questions about windows nt help in article apr cfmu eurocontrol be rajiev cfmu eurocontrol be rajiev gupta writes in article c cq fc ms uky edu shan ms uky edu minghua shan writes stuff deleted does windows nt run on sun sparc server if the answer to question is yes does it run unix applications such as sas for unix is windows nt a multiuser os when will windows nt be released is there any telephone number that i can call and get more info on win nt thank you minghua shan as far as i have read win nt will be supported on intel dec alpha and the mips r series of processors only i do remember though reading a rumour about sparc support sometime in the future i am not sure what you mean by running unix applications you would have to have sas for win nt or maybe sas for win etc i have read that ms will anounce avalaibility of win nt by end of may comdex spring hope this helps rajiev gupta rajiev gupta eurocontrol cfmu disclaimer rajiev cfmu eurocontrol be rue de la loi these are my views tel b bruxelles not my companies fax belgium according to the april issue of pc magazine pg and i quote eventually windows nt is likely to be ported to every successful risc architecture powerpc and hp s pa risc are the two most likely candidates with sparc somewhat less likely because of sun s relatively strong unix software base later bill
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re moving icons kmembry viamar uucp kirk membry writes i remember reading about a program that made windows icons run away from the mouse as it moved near them does anyone know the name of this program and the ftp location probably at cica as i remember it the name of the program your looking for is called icofrite cica was where i saw it last it was quite a while ago richard calderon rcaldrn epi med miami edu university of miami school of medicine information systems computing nw st miami florida
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc there are some things you might be interested to know about today s risc processors it is true that there are fewer instructions but what is not commonly known is that this causes the size of your executables to swell so that in some cases performance is similar for larger applications as a compromise many risc processors today are actually a cross between a reduced instructions set and a complex one this is not to say that there is no future in cisc processors intel has certainly proved that what i want to know is what does this have to do with this group dave subject re wp pcf linux risc newsgroups comp unix dos under unix comp sys ibm pc misc comp sys ibm pc net comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc alt uu comp os linux questions comp apps spreadsheets comp misc alt os linux comp os linux man linux references qu ud hd sunb ocs mq edu au from article qu ud hd sunb ocs mq edu au by eugene mpce mq edu au in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc some people say it s fun but i think it s very serious eugene macadam mpce mq edu au dave siegel ds president rtd systems and networking inc president uofaz hardware and computing knowledge society hacks dsiegel cs arizona edu dsiegel hacks arizona edu dsiegel rtd com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows speaker sound driver is there an ftp site where i can get the ms speaker sound driver there s a sound exe file that claims to be the driver but i m suspicious since it s not a drv file thanks alec lee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re window start up position for app how in apr ucsu colorado edu hayesj rintintin colorado edu hayes james michael jr writes how do you set up an app to give its window a default start up position and size try sizeit zip from ftp cica indiana edu in the directory ftp pub pc win desktop it s freeware also noticed there a program called sizer zip which from the description looks like it also does what you want hope this helps david white engineer goon fan son of my dad internet davidw auck irl cri nz fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows slower using dos adam benson mt pearl nf adamb garfield cs mun ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows speaker sound driver in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu alee mnemosyne cs du edu alec lee writes is there an ftp site where i can get the ms speaker sound driver there s a sound exe file that claims to be the driver but i m suspicious since it s not a drv file thats the file tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	save my hard disk allocation error cross linked hi while running the ms quick c compiler in a dos window under windows this evening i got a program has violated system integrity close all applications exit windows and restart your computer error i started to do this when i immediately got a serious disk error message from windows hit return to retry i did that about times and then rebooted to find that quite a few files have been corrupted somehow i am including the chkdsk output below questions is there an easy way to restore everything to working order what might be some better approaches what might have caused this does the smartdrv cache make me more vulnerable i m suspicious of hard drive caches especially when they cache data writing the straightforward approach would be to run chkdsk with the f option to fix the disk and then it looks like i would probably have to reinstall windows and a few other things thanks for your comments and suggestions brad banko ps this is a sx machine with a mb hard drive and mb of ram chkdsk output volume serial number is d errors found f parameter not specified corrections will not be written to disk c gfx vpic cvpic exe allocation error size adjusted c gfx vpic vpic txt allocation error size adjusted c gfx vpic video cfg allocation error size adjusted c gfx vpic orcpro cfg allocation error size adjusted c gfx vpic vga cfg allocation error size adjusted c game goose bird x allocation error size adjusted c winmisc adv winadv exe allocation error size adjusted lost allocation units found in chains bytes disk space would be freed c gfx vpic cvpic exe is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic geno cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic tri b cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic ts hi cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic config doc is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic vpic txt is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic video cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic defincon cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic atiwondr cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic geno cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic oak cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic hires cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic aheada cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic vpic doc is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic orcpro cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic everx cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic wait com is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic maxxon cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic wait doc is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic everx cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic ega cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic config exe is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic readme st is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic vga cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c game goose bird x is cross linked on allocation unit c windows system sound drv is cross linked on allocation unit c windows games grp is cross linked on allocation unit c windows mad bmp is cross linked on allocation unit c mage demo a kin is cross linked on allocation unit c mage demo b kin is cross linked on allocation unit c mage pkin exe is cross linked on allocation unit c winmisc games dialword exe is cross linked on allocation unit c winmisc games dialword txt is cross linked on allocation unit c winmisc adv winadv wri is cross linked on allocation unit c winmisc adv adv key is cross linked on allocation unit c winmisc adv adv rec is cross linked on allocation unit c winmisc adv freezer is cross linked on allocation unit c spart par is cross linked on allocation unit c bng mbx is cross linked on allocation unit bytes total disk space bytes in hidden files bytes in directories bytes in user files bytes available on disk bytes in each allocation unit total allocation units on disk available allocation units on disk total bytes memory bytes free brad banko dept of physics u of illinois b banko uiuc edu see one do one teach one de kb cne n lnq il
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fortran library for ms windows hi i will like to know if there is a fortran library for ms windows v out there i have several lots of source code written by past a ps in ms fortran and recently have needed to port them to ms windows i would like to avoid a major code rewrite if possible maybe a windows library is all i need please help reply by e mail to traversmorgan swell actrix gen nz guan lye chua c travers morgan nz ltd p o box wellington nz tel fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wallpaper in windows hi there is there any utility available that will make windows randomly select one of your windows directory s bmp files as the wallpaper file nate nathan c crowell dept of materials science acrl worcester polytechnic institute e mail bigal wpi wpi edu a flower genesis supper s ready
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wincmd trouble with string variables has anyone else been playing with that wincmd utility from pc magazine if so i am having trouble concatenating string variables together and need your help for example temp path temp file ext fullpath temp say fullpath output th fullpath fullpath temp say fullpath output h file ext so it seems to be dropping the first few characters with each concatenations is it that i am out of memory i only have maybe variables total the article didn t mention memory limits email me if you have an idea or would like to see the actual source and output thanks for your help bo james bo begole begolej csgrad cs vt edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	quicken vs tobias managing your money i just got a copy of tobias managing your money v i have quicken and it s wonderful for some things but mym seems to have some features that q doesn t for example q doesn t seem to be able to handle monthly automatic deductions from a checking account you know a monthly payment that gets electronically deducted every month from my checking account or is there something that i m not doing right and q can actually do that anyway mym seems to be able to handle monthly deductions in fact it can apparently do better than that that is you can specify monthly bimonthly quarterly even yearly anyway is anyone aware of a comparitive study of the two programs or can someone just give me their own personal impressions maybe someone who has used both or maybe someone who is familiar with each could give me a capsule review anything would be greatly appreciated if i keep mym i have to pay for it and i don t know whether it s worth doing if mym is better than q of course i will keep it but if q can do everything mym can do maybe even better i won t thanks all if you post a reply please also cc me thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	format a s under win dos has anyone experienced problems formatting a system floppy in the file manager under dos i get a formatted disk but when i boot with it my hard drive isn t recognized i did install doublespace also i was able to make a good working system floppy from the dos command shell no windows let me know if you ve had this problem too and if you ve heard what s going on craig silver computer science at simon fraser university silver sfu ca internet burnaby b c canada
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	exit codes dos sorry for wrong group hey now first of all sorry to post this dos question in a windows group but i m in kinda a hurry so i can t scramble to find the dos groups names anyway anyone know where i ccan find the exit codes to dos commands the manual doesn t seem to have all of them i m particularly looking for copy in order to make a move batch file such that if the file wasn t coppied properly it won t be deleted please e mail louray seas gwu edu thanks i a mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x win mouse cursor don a b lindbergh meinte am zum thema diamond ss x win mouse cursor da anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond x x da driver sorry don t know the version of the driver no indication in the da menus but it s a recently delivered gateway system am going to try the da latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this no not at all i m using ss x with bios and driver from januar i ve never had any problems with the mouse cursor is there already a newer driver published greetings sebastian beer gimme gummi lass die sau raus
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	setting up three user accounting system with wfwg i am a novice at best in working with pc networks and am in the process of planning a small accounting system for a small business the particular need in this case is for three machines each in a different office of the same building each having access to a windows based accounting system my first thought is to set up ms windows for workgroups on each of the machines likely a and two s along with the appropriate ethernet cards and cabling that come with the windows for workgroups starter kit one additional user kit will be necessary it then seems logical to purchase a simple multi user accounting system along the lines of daceasy or m y o b and fire it all up the will more or less act as server with a report check printer attached to it cable runs of feet will be necessary for this setup well this all seems too easy to me would any of you network gurus out there tell me if i am out of my mind here any and all suggestions however trivial will be immensely appreciated my apologies if this has been brought up before thanks john john e martin jemartin nyx cs du edu university of puget sound kent wa formerly martin ups edu seinfeldsupersonicsrushbelafleck john e martin jemartin nyx cs du edu university of puget sound kent wa formerly martin ups edu seinfeldsupersonicsbc rushdweckl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc in article qu ud hd sunb ocs mq edu au eugene mpce mq edu au writes in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc some people say it s fun but i think it s very serious eugene macadam mpce mq edu au theoretically supposed to be reduced not any longer that s why everyone is arguing about risc v s cisc personally i think cisc will win out just take a look at the pentium not that i like intel architectures either but that s another story bye brian hojo lee hey excuse me miss could i have a gif of you leebr ecf toronto edu leebr eecg toronto edu try linux the best and free un x clone
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help importing eps files into word jburke abacus bates edu jburke writes i was wondering if anyone knew how to view a eps in ms word a here are the first couple of lines if it helps ps adobe creator prowrite title tcwn orientation portrait pages pageorder ascend can any one help james burke by reading this you agree not to hold the writer responsible for any evil jburke abacus bates edu happening that may befall you at any time we had a similar problem in converting a eps file the solution was simple we changed the first line from ps adobe to ps adobe this fouled the converter the eps file only contained very simple move and draw statements mario mario veraart tno physics and electronics laboratory email rioj fel tno nl the hague the netherlands if all else fails show pretty pictures and animated videos and don t talk about performance david bailey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows help umyin ccu umanitoba ca qing yin writes hi it s an easy question for you windows gurus i d appreciate any help we need to write an on line help for our application we don t have windows software developer s toolkit yet since we just want to build a hlp file around windows help engine i hope it won t be that complicated anyway could someone kindly give me some hints of how to build such an on line help if it does not take pages to explain or if it is complicated would you help to point out what i would need to do it vincent q yin umyin ccu umanitoba ca hi if you have developed your own windows application you must have a sdk of some sort that contains the hc exe or hc exe file to compile and generate hlp files out of rtf files rtf files are generated by a wordprocessor like word for dos or w w if this is not the solution be more specific about your application mario mario veraart tno physics and electronics laboratory email rioj fel tno nl the hague the netherlands if all else fails show pretty pictures and animated videos and don t talk about performance david bailey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files i downloaded the compuserve gif of the month a raytraced image of a golf ball next to a hole very nice x x bitmap easily converted to a windows bmp if anyone wants i could upload a copy on cica please do and let us know specifics lest i m the only one on this mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wallpaper in windows in article qvpdo q i bigboote wpi edu bigal wpi wpi edu nathan charles crowell writes hi there is there any utility available that will make windows randomly select one of your windows directory s bmp files as the wallpaper file nate nate s sig there are a couple i am personally using screenpeace which is a screen saver which will also select your wallpaper from a specified directory not necessarily the windows dir let me know if you want info i ve been pretty happy with screenpeace and the latest version is not at cica but oak windows scrpc or something mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows hangs on dx wlieftin cs vu nl liefting w writes hello all you windows freaks out there i bought windows dutch version some time ago and run it on a i recently upgraded my computer to a dx k cache m memory m maxtor hd works real fine but not with windows when playing patience sol or minesweeper suddenly the system hangs i just can t move my mouse anymore or screen goes blank nothing further or screen goes blank computer seems to reboot but stops before reaching the end of the memory test once or maybe even twice i got a message about some illegal kernel call or something accompanied by a hex adress and a close button when pressing it the application wouldn t close though i haven t experienced this problem with other programs than these but that s mainly because i haven t really used other programs i suspect them to hang too anything known about this problem or better any patches available oh forgot to tell if in cmos ram i make the computer faster higher bus speed less wait states enable both caches etc the crash comes faster after min or so if i deliberately slow the system down slow bus speed wait states disable internal external cache no shadowing the crash comes later but comes hope anyone can help wouter hi i got a problem too with a dx vlb mb ram mb disk sometimes when i switch on the computer it starts windows dutch windows switches to x switches back to text mode and exits to dos after one or two resets the system works fine thanks patrick vu amsterdam
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	speedstar x windows enhanced mode hi i have a mhz sys based pc with m ram and a problem what is the best way to configure high memory with qemm max i have a speedstar x video card and use hyperdisk disk cache software the problem is running windows in enhanced mode and having any high memory to load stuff high note i tried as recommended to exclude the region a c ff but windows insists on starting in standard mode any suggestions dan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows for workgroups and lan workplace flint waters uwyo edu flint waters writes now does anyone know if it is possible to use w wg and lan workplace for dos at the same time yup we re using both and they work just fine hopefully someday wfwg will communicate over lwp tcpip right now we have to load netbeui i use odi with odinsup and all works well hey sounds great does that mean that w wg works with odi i thought it uses ndis my problem is that lan workplace with all its drivers uses up most of my umbs so i d hate to have to load many more drivers to make w wg work along i read in a german computer magazine that tcp ip support for w wg is just around the corner anybody have any news about this regards richard dr richard spitz internet spitz ana med uni muenchen de edv gruppe anaesthesie tel klinikum grosshadern fax munich germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows for workgroups and lan workplace flint waters uwyo edu flint waters writes now does anyone know if it is possible to use w wg and lan workplace for dos at the same time yup we re using both and they work just fine hopefully someday wfwg will communicate over lwp tcpip right now we have to load netbeui i use odi with odinsup and all works well hey sounds great does that mean that w wg works with odi i thought it uses ndis my problem is that lan workplace with all its drivers uses up most of my umbs so i d hate to have to load many more drivers to make w wg work along i read in a german computer magazine that tcp ip support for w wg is just around the corner anybody have any news about this regards richard ps i possibly caused a dupe with this message if this message was spread twice outside of munich please send me a short note it would help me debug my news application dr richard spitz internet spitz ana med uni muenchen de edv gruppe anaesthesie tel klinikum grosshadern fax munich germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wallpaper in windows louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes is there any utility available that will make windows randomly select one of your windows directory s bmp files as the wallpaper file there are a couple i am personally using screenpeace which is a if you need just to change the wallpaper then i ve written a short program in vb that does this by using systemparametersinfo function the bad news is that you need vbrun dll to run it and the dll is some kb the program is about kb the order of pictures depends on the system date and the number of bmp files in the directory so the picture remains the same if you execute the program multiple times during the same day and the number of bmps has not changed if you feel this is what you need then i could uuencode it and email it to you it is unavailable via ftp ismo k rkk inen joyl joensuu fi iak cs joensuu fi ph nglui mglw nafh cthulhu r lyeh wgah nagl fhtagn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	utility for updating win ini and system ini i nead a utility for updating deleting adding changing ini files for windows do i find it on any ftp host svein
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re moving icons in article bp rahpbh h viamar uucp rutgers viamar kmembry writes i remember reading about a program that made windows icons run away from the mouse as it moved near them does anyone know the name of this program and the ftp location probably at cica there s a program called icon frightener included with the book stupid windows tricks by bob levitus and ed tittel addison wesley it s freeware if it s not on the net anywhere i ll happily email a copy to someone who s willing to upload it i can t upload through our internet firewall bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows help mario veraart mveraart fel tno nl wrote umyin ccu umanitoba ca qing yin writes hi it s an easy question for you windows gurus i d appreciate any help we need to write an on line help for our application we don t have windows software developer s toolkit yet since we just want to build a hlp file around windows help engine i hope it won t be that complicated anyway could someone kindly give me some hints of how to build such an on line help if it does not take pages to explain or if it is complicated would you help to point out what i would need to do it vincent q yin umyin ccu umanitoba ca hi if you have developed your own windows application you must have a sdk of some sort that contains the hc exe or hc exe file to compile and generate hlp files out of rtf files no u can download what zip from ftp cica indiana edu this package from ms is all u need to buid simple hlp files from rich text format files rtf this package also contains dot tamplates for ms word win rtf files are generated by a wordprocessor like word for dos or w w if this is not the solution be more specific about your application mario mario veraart tno physics and electronics laboratory email rioj fel tno nl the hague the netherlands if all else fails show pretty pictures and animated videos and don t talk about performance david bailey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	truetype font mix up times cyrillic hi i m having a problem with truetype fonts in windows i have installed the cyrillic fonts i found on cica and now a strange thing happens sometimes windows uses cyrillic when its supposed to use times roman examples the pc tools backup version has one line of cyrillic text in its opening banner the next to last line importing a word for windows text written in times into wp also results in cyrillic does anyone have an idea where to look for the problem thanks reiner suikat institute for flight guidance fl g gandalf fl bs dlr de german aerospace research establishment dlr
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	top windows applications hello everybody i am searching for business information of windows application to create a top of most used wordprocessors spreadsheets drawing programs schedulers and fax programs etc please mail me all your information or references i will summaries the results on this media thank you in advance anton de ruiter digital equipment corporation workgroup products wgp objectworks obw ing anton de ruiter mba software product manager post office box ae apeldoorn the netherlands oude apeldoornseweg nr apeldoorn the netherlands mail hlde ruiter a dtn location apd f a internet aruit idca tds philips nl uucp mcsun philapd aruit phone business phone private fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re quicken vs tobias managing your money in article apr twg com q twg com michael wiesenberg wrote i just got a copy of tobias managing your money v i have quicken and it s wonderful for some things but mym seems to have some features that q doesn t for example q doesn t seem to be able to handle monthly automatic deductions from a checking account you know a monthly payment that gets electronically deducted every month from my checking account or is there something that i m not doing right and q can actually do that hi i have never used mym so i can not help you with the comparison of the two products i am however a devoted quicken user and i can tell you how to set up the weekly monthly quarterly yearly transactions first use the memorize feature ctrl m to record the recurring transactions next define a transaction group which uses these memorized transactions and specify the frequency that it should be used i e monthly quicken will can not automatically make the transactions for you but now all you do is recall the group and all of the individual transactions will be entered at once additionally if you are using the bill minder it will remind you when each transaction group is due for example you could have three transaction groups one for payments at the beginning of the month middle of the month and one for quarterly payments i hope this helps mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	videoblaster pc speaker software that comes together with the videoblaster is designed to work together with the soundblaster from the same manufacturer since i do not own a soundblaster is there a possibility to use the pc speaker driver to play audio files for the videoblaster avi audio video interleave files i think what i should have is a device driver for the media player that controls the pc speaker driver instead of the soundblaster card something like mcispkr drv has anybody heard of such a driver or am i on the wrong track any information on this appreciated please send e mail since i don t watch this group regularly v joerg meyer e mail j meyer informatik uni kl de o o university of kaiserslautern germany ooo u ooo this space for rent
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	c link segment problem calling run time functions i have a small windows program which i can not get to work the program looks vaguely like this char f int winmain lstrcpy lpstr f hello long far pascal wndproc lstrcpy lpstr f hello i am using large model under windows after linking without errors the rc program said sorting preload segments and resources into fast load section copying segment bytes rc fatal error rw segment and its relocation information is too large for load optimization make the segment loadoncall or rerun rc using the k switch if the segment must be preloaded using the k switch seems to interfere with the proper function of the second lstrcpy call can anybody explain what is going on and or how to fix it thanks pugsley dpugsle nswc wo nswc navy mil
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini in article apr news uit no sp odin nosubdomain nodomain svein pedersen writes i nead a utility for updating deleting adding changing ini files for windows do i find it on any ftp host svein unless i am completely misunderstanding you try using either notepad or sysedit exe found in your system subdirectory to edit you ini files the sysedit exe program is cool because it automatically opens you win ini system ini autoexec bat and config sys files to be edited drewster am kimbark uchicago edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mathcad vs ndw i just got off the phone with mathsoft technical service they are now admitting a problem of unknown nature with maple and norton desktop for windows they have no clue at this time and are collecting configuration information on the systems which exhibit the problem anyone having problems loading the maple solver in mathcad under ndw shoud call technical support at they made no schedule promices but are actively working on the problem in the meantime the workaround is to provide a configuration selection in autoexec bat to use progman yuk pew whenever you plan to use the maple solver and ndw otherwise i am using norton be to place a little menu on the screen with a second timeout to auto boot ndw david a fuess dir center for eecs phone fax lawrence livermore national laboratory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond speedstar x driver bug since swapping out my generic vga card for a diamod speedstar x i have noticed two new problems if i create a windowed ms dos session mode when the text starts to scroll rather than printing characters it starts to print horizontal lines that spill out to the desktop and trash the entire display ctrl alt del terminates the dos window and restores the desktop after a short time in ncd s pc x remote for windows all characters displayed on the desktop are changed to be unreadable i am unable to restore without rebooting these are in both and color x drivers large and small fonts dos win emm and smartdrv installed i like the speed of the card and have had no other problems any ideas thanks steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc voice north lexington avenue fax arden hills mn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trident cl x driver please excuse if faq but new trident cl based card claims to have x support drivers with card indicate several x drivers on diskette windows does not make all drivers on diskette available to configuration dialog box any suggestion thanx please e mail dfeldman uswest com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	q change icons forever hi anyone knows how can i change an icon forever and ever i mean not only in the program manager thanks in advance alejandro cifuentes h acifuent isluga puc cl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini in article apr news uit no sp odin nosubdomain nodomain svein pedersen writes i nead a utility for updating deleting adding changing ini files for windows do i find it on any ftp host svein in windows there is a built in called sysedit exe that is just what you need windows i don t know
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re color or monochrome walther i d have a look at the maximum resolution the combination of the video card and screen would have without flickering i d only suggest using the color screen if it does without flickering if this is not too small for your tastes at a personally i d prefer the mono screen as i always have quite a few windows open if you only run one program at a time or rarely switch maybe the color surplus is worth trading in the smaller size if you want to develop programs you will always have to check the colors i used a mono screen worst of both worlds and was surprised how the colors looked i choose on a color screen regards olaf winkelhake
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati ultra pro confirmation i have heard many things about the ati ultra pro card some have been positive but most are negative could people please confirm these i am interested in the eisa version in particular the card does not work in a system with m ram the card works in a m system with some switches set but it is much slower the card is interlaced in its bit true colour modes the latest build drivers still do not work in many cases this card is the fastest full colour card for the money this card is the greatest thing since sliced bread thanks for your feedback i will summarize al alan walford eos systems inc vancouver b c canada tel aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca or uunet wimsey bc ca eosvcr aew
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workgroup questions conven ram and licensing i would be very appreciative if someone would answer a few questions about windows for workgroups i currently have novell netware lite which does not work with windows very well and is a conventional memory hog ver i am considering moving all our machines to w wg q how much conventional ram does w wg use over and above the driver for the network card q if i have a novell ne card are the lsl and ipx drivers still needed q does w wg do a license check over the network to ensure each machine is running its own licenced copy of w wg note i do not want to break the license agreement and i will buy a copy of w wg for each of our machines it is just that i would like to try it out first to see if it meets our needs returning one opened copy is much easier than returning n opened copies q if you buy the upgrade to windows for w wg does it replace all of win as you install it or does it depend on current win files q if i install windows nt on my server when it comes out will i have any troubles with the w wg machines when i started this message i was going to ask only questions but i got carried away i ll stop now i look forward to your replies al alan walford eos systems inc vancouver b c canada tel aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca or uunet wimsey bc ca eosvcr aew
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	serial printing hi we ve been having problems on a few setups when printing to a serial printer dmp or laser i have used works and windows write the output is ok from dos and if i send plain text output but anything fancy garbles or just doesn t output the exception is outputting to a lserjet which appears to be fast enough receiving data not to bother about handshaking messages i m sure i m not alone in this i ve tried most of the print network manager options i can think of anyone had similar problems they ve cured and would like to tell me bout it thanks john atherton
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re quicken vs tobias managing your money in article apr twg com q twg com michael wiesenberg writes anyway is anyone aware of a comparitive study of the two programs or can someone just give me their own personal impressions maybe pc magazine january had a review of several personal finance management programe as did pc computing january pc world december also had articles about quicken and managing your money i can email you copies of these articles if you can t find them at your library i ve been using managing your money for several years and i have several friends who use quicken though i ve not used it myself my overall impression is that quicken is a financial accounts manager while managing your money will help you more completely manage your finances here are some features that i believe managing your money and quicken share the ability to keep records for each of your financial accounts checking savings charge cash or brokerage you can reconcile your account statements with the records the program keeps the ability to make a budget and track your spending against that budget a checkfree module which will allow you to use the checkfree bill paying service to pay your bills via your modem the ability to print checks on your printer the ability to keep loan records and set up automatic loan payments the ability to import stock quotations to keep your brokerage accounts up to date i know managing your money can do this automatically via modem quicken probably can as well but i m not sure about it the ability to export tax information to popular tax preparation programs here are some features that i believe managing your money has that quicken does not a tax prediction module this looks at your accounts and budget to predict your tax liability for the coming year it s usefull to fine tune your withholding so uncle sam doesn t get his due too early an insurance and vital records module this is a place to keep records of your insurance policies as well as other vital records it can also compute your life expectancy a financial analysis module this computes compound interest effects of inflation loan payments term or interest yield to maturity for bonds savings account yields days between dates and loan amortization schedules it also has functions to help you decide whether to refinance your mortgage whether you can afford a particular home whether a particular rental property is a good investment whether you should buy lease or rent and whether a particular investment s cash flow is adequate for your situation this module can also help you plan for retirement and for helping your kids with their tuition a net worth module this is a place to record all your assets and liabilities your net worth can be computed from this information any assets or liabilities recorded in other modules are automatically included here a desk module this includes a small word processor a card file you can use to store names addresses phone numbers and other vital information about friends and associates a perpetual calander a rudimentary calculator a to do list a reminder list an appointment list and a place to record your phone calls for those who need to track such things your appointments reminders and to do list can be made to display automatically when you start the program there are probably some things listed above that quicken has but i m almost sure that quicken doesn t do everything i ve listed if i m wrong i m sure hordes of quicken devotees will flame me to a crisp one thing that quicken has that managing your money does not yet have is a windows version meca software is rumored to be working on a windows version of managing your money for release late this year i hope this information is of use to you i ve found managing your money to be a very usefull program for keeping my financial records on the other hand i know many people who are equally as happy with quicken if quicken has all the features you need or want i d go with it if you find any of the managing your money features that quicken doesn t have to be useful i think it s well worth the price
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mathcad swap file i have mb of memory on my sx i have been running windows without a swap file for several months will mathcad be happy with this or insist on a swap file
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is ms windows a mature os in article cyen ponder jesse writes hi have you used mac system x or x if the answer is positive you would know if ms windows is a mature os this is silly is unix a mature os depends on who you ask and how you define mature system is if anything less mature than windows days ago people doubted that ms windows is not a real os i can see why they have such question ms windows confuses many people microsoft simulated mac but it did a lousy job for example you can not create hierarchy groups there is no way to create a group in a group if you know how please tell me so why do you need something like behierarchic to create groups under the apple menu everyone knows that apple menu items are a ripoff of the program manager if you want a hierarchic program launcher there are lots available uncomplete documentation it s not easy to find the reason why causes an unpredictable error and this is easy on a mac give me a break having spent hours moving system extensions around and restarting the mac to see why a certain app crashes all the time i find this laughable group deleting file deleting after deleting a group users have to use file manager to delete files but if users forget to delete some related files the disk will be full of nonsense files oh great ever hear of aliases wonder why apple implemented them share problem once you create two windows doing compilation and editing in some language w o good editor there will be a sharing problem you just can not open or save the program if it is loaded it makes sense to prevent from saving but not opening eh i don t follow it s by no means easy to satisfy everybody but if microsoft want to keep their reputations they should evaluate the user interface more carefully before products distribute why is it that i find the mac desktop incredibly annoying whenever i use it no flame please yeah right you post flame bait yet ask for no flames iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini in article apr midway uchicago edu am midway uchicago edu writes unless i am completely misunderstanding you try using either notepad or sysedit exe found in your system subdirectory to edit you ini files you can add sysedit regedit to a program group they are windows programs the sysedit exe program is cool because it automatically opens you win ini system ini autoexec bat and config sys files to be edited is it possible to get it to load other ini files drewster am kimbark uchicago edu e mail un x oddjob oz plymouth edu vms andys psc plymouth edu disclaimer any end user software that provides no avenue for user of the week modification or programmability is not user friendly
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ati ultra pro confirmation in article fn razbbh h eosvcr wimsey bc ca aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca alan walford writes i have heard many things about the ati ultra pro card some have been positive but most are negative could people please confirm these i am interested in the eisa version in particular the card does not work in a system with m ram the higher memory limits apply to isa cards only as far as i know the vlb and eisa version should have no problems the card works in a m system with some switches set but it is much slower again the memory aperture need only be disabled if you have more than m ram eisa and vlb or m isa m should not be a problem for you the card is interlaced in its bit true colour modes nope i can use x at hz bit and x at hz bit all non interlaced the latest build drivers still do not work in many cases they aren t perfect but are much improved i don t recall the last time which i had to leave mach mode ati gup mode and switch to or vga mode due to software incompatibility this card is the fastest full colour card for the money it s quite fast but whether or not its the fastest is open to debate this card is the greatest thing since sliced bread i like it daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mathcad swap file in article apr ncar ucar edu baseball catch the fever scd ucar edu gregg walters writes i have mb of memory on my sx i have been running windows without a swap file for several months will mathcad be happy with this or insist on a swap file i just got mathcad and the manual is not clear on the matter on page at least megabytes of memory all memory about k should be configured as xms at least megabytes of virtual memory common sense suggests that you should be able to run it but the new mathcad is kinda kooky and thus is not subject to the laws of common sense dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re gatewaying microsoft mail workgroups via we here at utah state university cooperative extension have been using w wg for a while now we wanted to talk to the internet with the mail package so we got the smtp gateway you also need a tcp ip transport package on top of that which is utterly stupid but that s what they require to get the smtp gateway to work you need a dedicated pc for the gateway and if you are looking at remote access you need another dedicated pc for the remote mail stuff we do not have the remote mail going but you indicate that that is what you want to do there is a glitch somewhere in the system though i don t know if it is ms mail the gateway or the vax here on campus that is choking in the mail that is sent the scenario is this the outgoing mail goes to a unix system which then routes the mail where it needs to go if that mail is routed to the vax the vax has problems some times receiving the mail most messages do get through this way except if someone has there mail on the vax forwarded to some other location that is the main gotcha where ever the mail is forwarded to that person gets a message header then a message saying boudary error garbage code stuff if you can stay away from sending to a vax you are ok the system people of course say that the vax is not the problem the gateway is probably the problem if anyone wants to get help it is only for one support call until problem is worked out phooey to that i say i am looking vigorously for a better idea if you go forward on any of this and find out anything knew please drop me a note anyone the next itteration is supposed to have tcp ip built in they say the netxt itteration of w wg good luck wes james email wesj extsparc agsci usu edu utah state university cooperative extension systems specialist umc voice logan ut fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is ms windows a mature os in article c snbs j h usenet ucs indiana edu comp os ms windows advocacy writes you can not create hierarchy groups there is no way to create a group in a group if you know how please tell me get norton desktop put groups within groups groups on the desktop icons on the desktop etc chris ruckman ruckman oasys dt navy mil this sig brought to you by hull structures acoustics code your local chevrolet bottler carderock division nswc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pc tcp onpredir with windows hello we are having troubles using the pc tcp onpredir printer redirection program with lpr support with the windows print manager the onpredir simply waits an do only the capture till the end of the windows session while after some printer inactivity it should start the printing does anybody uses this two programs together thanks zsolt zsolt bagoly dept of atomic physics eotvos university budapest hungary e mail zsolt hercules elte hu eltenet bagoly ludens elte hu eltenet internet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	atm i ve been reading with much confusion about whether or not to use atmanager lately all the packages i ve been buying have all included atmanager as a bonus i do some desktop publishing using pagemaker and coreldraw coreldraw comes with a nifty laser disk that contains over diff types add that to the ttfonts that come with win and you have a decent amount of fonts i print my creations out on an hp postcript at dpi resolution with the resolution enhancement technology and well i get some darn good copies so good that there isn t any diff whether or not atmanager is turned on or not is it worth it to run atm at all especially with these better printer technologies and tt avdean
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more diamond ss x has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card is only in windows i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup i had a ati ultra but was getting genral protection fault errors in an spss application these card manufactures must have terrible quality control to let products on the market with so many bugs what a hassle running on gateway dx thx dave l
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	x windows for windows are there any x window servers that can run under ms windows i only know of deskview but have not seen it in action are there any others thanks in advance phil pmw lehigh edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc risc used to mean reduced instruction set computer true they still use the same acronym but only to be familiar what risc really means is a recently designed cpu in general most risc cpus are like this a large number or more of general purpose registers a fixed instruction size usually bits an instruction may make only one memory reference memory references must be aligned there are delayed branches branch after the next instruction or a target prediction bit probably will won t branch instructions may complete out of order relative to the instruction stream richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini sorry i did nt tell exactly what i need i need a utility for automatic updating deleting adding changing of ini files for windows the program should run from dos batchfile or the program run a script under windows i will use the utility for updating the win ini and other files on meny pc s do i find it on any ftp host svein
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how do i quickly switch between windows screen resolutions in hydra gatech edu ccastco prism gatech edu constantinos malamas writes in article c qlr djl cbnewsl cb att com slg slgsun att com the idealistic cynic writes can someone out there tell me how to switch window s screen resolution quickly and easily i know that i can go back into install to do it take a look at ftp cica indiana edu at pub pc win util misc for a program caleld vswitch zip it s as close to want you want as you can get in win i think george is referring to switch zip in the ftp pub pc win drivers video directory description reads switcher windows video mode switcher david white engineer goon fan son of my dad internet davidw auck irl cri nz fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ati ultra pro drivers bad ati ultra in article apr cvdv mayo edu fisk cvdv mayo edu tom fisk d stm writes in article c jldc hl news cso uiuc edu jroberts ux cso uiuc edu robertson writes does anybody know the ftp site with the latest windows drivers for the ati gup thanks the latest driver release is and can be found at ftp cica indiana edu in the pub pc win directory structure as pro zip i checked with ati s bbs last nite and there were no releases past we have the ati local bus card and i noticed that i get garbage around the edges of a window when i move it has anybody else noticed this also i have the local bus card also and don t have any such problems with it now but this is the second card i ve gotten the first card didn t work in vga mode correctly maybe they still have some quality control problems i would suggest checking with ati i went through the vendor i bought the card from since the problem showed up immediately i never was able to get through to ati s technical support number i sure like the way the card performs though i have the mb ati ultra pro local bus and it is fast even in x x bpp mode cheers phil tom thomas b fisk internet fisk mayo edu mayo clinic if you don t know where voice first street sw you re going you ll never fax mail stop d stm get there rochester mn philip carmack pcarmack kpc com kubota pacific computers inc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	running c exe under windows preface i am a novice user at best to the windows environment i am trying to execute a ms c executable program which accesses a btrieve database to build an ascii file when i execute it under windows the screen goes blank and my pc locks up the only way for me to return is to reset the machine does anyone have any insight on what i may have to do in order for the program to correctly under windows by the way it runs fine in dos system gateway dx ati graphics ultra card x any help would be greatly appreciated rodger
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win font with macrons greetings from green new zealand we are looking for a windows font that will allow macrons a hypen over vowels in both upper and lower cases this is so we can use maori characters in windows applications thanks in advance stuart inglis email directly to tetaka waikato ac nz would be the prefered method of contact
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re borland s paradox offer in article cvbnetprime com tbelmont feds prime com tom belmonte x writes i am considering buying borland s paradox for windows since i would like to use a database with windows i don t have use one yet for both work home use i would like to advantage of borland s until april offer if this package is everything that borland claims it to be so i was wondering has anybody used this and or have any opinions yes and it s pretty much what they claim i haven t had time to try all of it considering the price even if you decide you don t like it it should be saleable over the next months for what you have in it once the price goes up all in all it s very serviceable and in my humble opinion more powerful than access
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files in article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu john wang writes hi everybody i guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file i can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc i used to have some unfortunately i delete them all anyway could me give me some help please in response to a different kinda wallpaper here s what i use i think the original gif whatever was called not real the artist name and logo is in the lower right corner you will need vga i think and i have this sized for x color screens use this in your windows directory and do not tile it hope you enjoy
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc leebr ecf toronto edu lee brian writes in article qu ud hd sunb ocs mq edu au eugene mpce mq edu au writes in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc the original riscs had small instruction sets and simple ones the idea was that a every instruction should be completable in a single clock cycle and b to have no microcode and c extensive pipelines a few comparisons from patterson reduced instruction set computers cacm v cpu year instructions microcode ibm kb dec vax kb ibm ucb risc stanford mips while researching for the vlsi vax dec discovered that of the vax microcode is there to support of the instruction set which accounted for a mere of all instructions executed the uvax subsetted the architecture onto a single chip and used a software emulator for these very complex instructions the full vlsi uvax included the entire instruction set was times more copmlex but only ranm faster cpu chips microcode transistors uvax k k vlsi uvax k k real deryk barker computer science dept camosun college victoria b c email dbarker camosun bc ca phone
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	norton desktop smartcan vs norton util s ep i just purchased the norton desktop for windows and i also have norton utilities when i installed ndw it wanted to rem out the line that installed ep ep on and the command to invoke the image utility it replaced the image command with a new image command that invokes the version of image that came with ndw this makes sense as presumably the image version with ndw is newer than the one with nu it did not however install smartcan in the autoexec now two questions will nu use the image data saved by the newer version of image invoked i e are the two version of image compatable will erase protect use the info from smartcan and vice versa i use both dos and windows and i want to make sure that when i erase files in either environment they are going to be protected from the experiments i have run the two programs erase protect and smart erase don t use each others info i currently have both ep and smartcan loading within my autoexec and i don t see any conflicts fyi norton desktop for windows version norton util s version thanks for any help
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	character missing in ttf word c doesn t show the period centred character to indicate spaces if i use the ttfonts from coreldraw our editors need to be able to see how many spaces are in text but the character displayed is a large hollow box they overlap each other and characters on each side which is useless i believe the character used by w w is the period centred this character shows up with the windows charmap display as the hollow box which tends to confirm this i have edited the corel font with fontmonger and changing the font graphics for the character makes no difference to the font output in charmap or w w altering the paragraph or cedilla does alter their font graphics displayed however is the w w character used to indicate spaces the period centred character has anyone been able to get this character displayed from a coreldraw ttf russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph fax deakin university school of engineering technology geelong australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows help in apr fel tno nl mveraart fel tno nl mario veraart writes umyin ccu umanitoba ca qing yin writes hi it s an easy question for you windows gurus i d appreciate any help we need to write an on line help for our application we don t have windows software developer s toolkit yet since we just want to build a hlp file around windows help engine i hope it won t be that complicated anyway could someone kindly give me some hints of how to build such an on line help if it does not take pages to explain or if it is complicated would you help to point out what i would need to do it vincent q yin umyin ccu umanitoba ca hi if you have developed your own windows application you must have a sdk of some sort that contains the hc exe or hc exe file to compile and generate hlp files out of rtf files rtf files are generated by a wordprocessor like word for dos or w w you do not need the sdk what you need and can get free are location ftp cica indiana edu index pub pc win index first get pub pc win uploads what zip m this contains the help compiler among other things it is free from microsoft then get these i think these are free too dir pub pc win programr files hag zip whag zip wfwhlp zip these are shareware dir pub pc win util files hwab zip qdhelp zip qdtool zip dir pub pc win winword files drhelpev zip macros for word to convert doc to hlp files shiva shenoy e mail shenoy iastate edu black dept of aeem isu ames ia office shiva shenoy e mail shenoy iastate edu black dept of aeem isu ames ia office
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	losing dark colors of my icons here is an annoying problem whenever i save an icon which contains dark colors like dark red or dark purple these colors are converted to the bright colors this happens with every icon editor including the image editor that came with sdk i don t have this problem with bmp files either only with ico files or icon libraries the problem is with the icon colormap field in the icon file header checking the file with a binary editor i can see that the masks are ok by editing the colormap manually copying from another icon that i didn t edit i can fix the colors does anybody know what may be causing this problem thanks sadun anik u of illinois at urbana champaign center for reliable and high performance computing e mail anik crhc uiuc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini sp odin fna no svein pedersen writes sorry i did nt tell exactly what i need i need a utility for automatic updating deleting adding changing of ini files for windows the program should run from dos batchfile or the program run a script under windows i will use the utility for updating the win ini and other files on meny pc s do i find it on any ftp host svein well in the latest windows magazine there is an advertisement for a program that will help you uninstall windows apps from your harddisk uninstaller but it can be used to update a network but only for deleting not adding or changing their ini files uninstaller by microhelp inc i am also looking for an ini updater for my pc network and so far without any luck so for the time being i have been pushing dos and it s batch language to its limit look into dos s i am assumming that dos has the same command maybe even more or less improved replace command i use this to update our users personal files with a master set in a batch file that is run everytime they invoke windows this basically overwrites their color schemes but does what i need it to do not neat but does the job i m looking for a better solution though mike just relaying what i know a not for profit service mike bendtsen msbendts mtu edu elm st apt ccli senior technical consultant hancock mi michigan technological university
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is ms windows a mature os why is it that i find the mac desktop incredibly annoying whenever i use it because you are uptight many computer literate people see advantages in each system you act like a mac ate your cat lighten up
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mathcad swap file baseball catch the fever scd ucar edu gregg walters writes i have mb of memory on my sx i have been running windows without a swap file for several months will mathcad be happy with this or insist on a swap file presumeably you mean without a permanent swap file if windows needs a swap file it will upo and create one if a permanent one doesn t exist permanent is generally faster though i don t know why mathcad wouldn t be happy with either type ver is and so should any program conforming to the win specification
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows slower using dos not on my system frank calloway
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re icons gone in a previous article hsano cs ulowell edu hitoshi sano says i m not sure if this is the proper place to post this the icons on win program manager have all dissapeared and i need to restore them the files all seem to be there on the disk and i think there must be a better way than re installing everything thanks for any help hmmmmm you know this happened to me also i am not sure what caused it i think there might have been a system error and dumped windows i came back and all was well except no groups program manager was empty all the grp files were in the directory i had to remake the groups with the new and group selection all the icons and files inside the groups were still there and working fine just the groups had gone out of program manager strange c ya artin this communication is sent by artin university of arizona tucson ak cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king of kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm in article r jq af network ucsd edu adean weber ucsd edu anthony v dean writes i ve been reading with much confusion about whether or not to use atmanager lately all the packages i ve been buying have all included atmanager as a bonus adobe has been doing this for years i do some desktop publishing using pagemaker and coreldraw coreldraw comes with a nifty laser disk that contains over diff types add that to the ttfonts that come with win and you have a decent amount of fonts i print my creations out on an hp postcript at dpi resolution with the resolution enhancement technology and well i get some darn good copies so good that there isn t any diff whether or not atmanager is turned on or not is it worth it to run atm at all especially with these better printer technologies and tt there are some fonts that are only available as ps fonts if you have a ps font that you want to use use atm otherwise it is a waste of system resources personally i use both mike lipsie work mlipsie ca merl com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory home mikel dosbears uucp
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card is only in windows i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup i had a ati ultra but was getting genral protection fault errors in an spss application these card manufactures must have terrible quality control to let products on the market with so many bugs what a hassle running on gateway dx thx dave l i have used both version drivers for win and the new drivers i have had none of these problems no gpf s at all i have a feeling that your problems are not with the card or drivers the ati ultra drivers are considered some of the most reliable on the market and the ss x ones seem quite good as well maybe you should check bios problems in your gateway i know a few people with gateway dx s and all of them have found some problem or other with compatibility especially with graphics the only gpf s i have ever had can be directly attributable to using abusing applications i even got the newest drivers from diamond when people started complaining i still only have one small problem with them and it is that the hardware cursor is slightly jumpy during writes reads to the swap file greg bishop
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winqvtnet with ndis on token ring is it possible to use winqvt net on a machine that uses ndis to connect to a token ring i tried it with older versions but got an invalid packet class error or something the like regards wim van holder katholieke universiteit leuven tel departement t e w fax dekenstraat b leuven e mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be belgium fdbaq cc kuleuven ac be
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trumpet for windows other news readers i m looking for a decent windows news reader i ve given up on winvn since it doesn t work very well with the winsock dll of the ibm tcp ip for dos what the status of trumpet for windows will it use the windows sockets i liked it in dos but had to abandon it since i started using ndis to access our token ring results in invalid class error bye wim van holder katholieke universiteit leuven tel departement t e w fax dekenstraat b leuven e mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be belgium fdbaq cc kuleuven ac be
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond viper hi folks at the end of the summer i m planning on getting a new computer dx or dx and have been poking around in computer shopper anyway i saw the ads for the diamond viper local bus mb memory million winmarks and was wondering if anyone has had any experience with it good bad not worth the money etc any information at all would be nice also a few other questions anyone know of a good cheap x ni monitor and what is a good cd rom drive that meets mpc standards and is controlled via scsi how about a mb tape drive on scsi thanks for your time brent casavant bcasavan mailhost ecn uoknor edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	proteced mode i m looking for information how w nt uses proteced mode the hw support
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini in article apr oz plymouth edu oddjob oz plymouth edu andrew c stoffel writes in article apr midway uchicago edu am midway uchicago edu writes unless i am completely misunderstanding you try using either notepad or sysedit exe found in your system subdirectory to edit you ini files you can add sysedit regedit to a program group they are windows programs the sysedit exe program is cool because it automatically opens you win ini system ini autoexec bat and config sys files to be edited is it possible to get it to load other ini files no when the program is run it loads configuration files autoexec bat config sys win ini and system ini there is no open entry on the file menu you can only edit these four files if you need to edit some other program s ini file use notepad or some other ascii editor i wonder whether microsoft intended for sysedit to be used or if it was just a holdover from the testing period and they forgot to take it out the reason i think this is because there is absolutely no mention in the manuals about this program and there is no online help for it just an about entry under the file menu the program looks like something that was intended for internal use only it s kind of a shame though it would have made a nice multi file replacement for notepad daniel silevitch dmsilev athena mit edu massachusetts institute of technology
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trumpet for windows other news readers in article apr liris tew kuleuven ac be wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be wim van holder writes what the status of trumpet for windows will it use the windows sockets i liked it in dos but had to abandon it since i started using ndis to access our token ring results in invalid class error while i do not speak for peter tattam i am fairly sure he is planning a winsock compliant version while this will definitely not make the initial public release of wintrumpet it will follow on shortly thereafter currently wintrumpet is in very late beta it looks like an excellent product with several features beyond the dos version wintrumpet supports the trumpet tcp novell lwp and there is also a direct to packet driver version that some people are using with the dis pkt shim ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department of biochemistry tel cwru school of medicine cleveland ohio fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	telix problem when i use telix or kermit in win or use telix after exiting windows to dos telix can not find the serial port if you have some ideas on how to solve this problem or where i can find further information send me email or send it to the news group thanks dale erickson dericks plains nodak edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	black screen of death windows novell hi there we are running a node token ring with windows and novell every once in a while we run into the black screen of death a phrase coined by robert x cringely in a recent infoworld column basically sometimes when you quit windows the screen goes black and you get a nice little flashing cursor in the top left corner of your screen also sometimes when you exit to dos the same effect occurs cringely hints that microsoft and or novell has a patch for windows virtual interrupt controller that may solve this neither company seems to know what i am talking about when i call them has anyone else noticed this phenomenon is there a fix for it any response is welcome peter sweeney psweeney miavx acs muohio edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	telix problem when i use telix or kermit in win or use telix after exiting windows to dos telix can not find the serial port if you have some ideas on how to solve this problem or where i can find further information send me email or send it to the news group thanks dale erickson dericks plains nodak edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	serial printing in windows i am getting garbled output when serial printing thru windows works etc this has occurred on several systems and goes if a laserjet is used i suspect that there is no need for handshaking in this case due to the capacity memory speed of it there is no problem printing from dos are there any obvious tweaks i m missing i m sure its not just me with this problem thanks for reading john atherton
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows speaker sound driver in article c req eq unix portal com claebaur shell portal com tony s annese writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu alee mnemosyne cs du edu alec lee writes is there an ftp site where i can get the ms speaker sound driver there s a sound exe file that claims to be the driver but i m suspicious since it s not a drv file thats the file to clarify a little more sound exe is a self expanding archive which contains the driver which is actually called speaker drv i think ray
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mathcad swap file reposting and summarizing for your information or additional comment this is long i have mb of memory on my sx mhz an intel math coprocessor and a mb hard drive with mb free no compression i have been running mathcad under windows in enhanced mode with a mb ram drive mb mb smart drive and no swap file permanent or temporary for several months i am interested in the faster mathcad but i am concerned about reported swap file requirements and the legitimacy of mathsoft s claim about increased speed to sx users will mathcad run without a swap file or insist that i use a swap file so far in response to a less detailed description of my setup or in unrelated postings the more informed answers on the net or by e mail appear to be by fuess llnl gov david a fuess according to mathsoft no mathcad uses the swap file extensively so as not to overburden the physical resources they say this is actually a win s feature a figure of mb was indicated to me as a minimum but you might try anyway by bert tyler satalink com bert tyler i m not all that certain that mathcad is the culprit here i have a dx with mb of main memory less mb for a ramdisk and a bit for a dos session that is opened as part of the startup process which i have been running without any swapfile when i installed the win s subsystem from the march beta of the nt sdk the win s subsystem itself demanded the presence of a swapfile the only win s program i ve run to date is the bit version of freecell that came with that subsystem i gave windows a small temporary swapfile i m leery of files that must remain in fixed locations on my hard disk and all seems well by bca ece cmu edu brian c anderson what is win i upgraded to mathcad and it installed a directory for win under windows system during the upgrade it told me that win was required by case student tc umn edu steven v case mathcad makes use of the win s libraries you ve probably heard about win s it is a bit windows library that provides much of the windows nt functionality no support for threads and multitasking and such but can be run under windows by rhynetc zardoz chem appstate edu thomas c rhyne i also have mb of ram and indeed mathcad insisted on a permanent swapfile it would not run otherwise by bishop baeyer chem fsu edu greg bishop mathcad absolutely requires mb ram with mb swap file or mb ram with mb swap file it will give you a not enough memory error if the swap file is less than mb it is a major resource hog if you do not load the symbolic processor or the smart math it takes about mb of ram real or virtual just to load again due to the win s libraries so it seems that in addition to the system requirements shown on mathsoft s advertisement for that you need a swap file possibly as big as mb looks like i would just need an mb swap file and would need to choose or can i between a faster permanent swap file or a slower temporary swap file apparently a win subsystem ships with mathcad how much disk space does this require i also received these answers by mfdjh uxa ecn bgu edu dale hample if you ve got megs of ram why not configure megs as a ram disk for mathcad dos permits different bootup configurations can mathcad win be configured to use such a ram drive instead of a swap file if not i don t see how using dos for an alternate bootup would provide windows with this swap file some time back i remember a discussion about the issues of using a ram drive to support a swap file but i thought this involved slower mb systems i have dos but for various reasons have not yet done a full installation by the way is a full installation of dos required to avail oneself of the alternate bootup feature which files from the installation disks are required by wild access digex com wildstrom presumeably you mean without a permanent swap file if windows needs a swap file it will upo and create one if a permanent one doesn t exist permanent is generally faster though i don t know why mathcad wouldn t be happy with either type ver is and so should any program conforming to the win specification so far mb has been enough ram to avoid the overhead of running any swap file i have been running mathcad under windows without one
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it can anyone tell me how chicago windows would differ from os x believe it or not i m not trying to start a flame war here i m simply curious if there is going to be any feature advantage in either of these products i do not consider the fact that it has uncle bills seal of approval much of a feature one difference will probably be the same difference as between os and windows x now one will likely have a lot of software available for it and one won t emulation with the inevitable incompatibilities that crop up in spite of all the contrary claims just doesn t count when you have to use a certain software package that doesn t quite run properly under the emulation developers want to channel their resources toward a platform that has a large installed base and in a case like that the platform that is most successfully marketed regardless of its relative sophistication will win lamont downs downs nevada edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm so good that there isn t any diff whether or not atmanager is turned on or not is it worth it to run atm at all especially with these better printer technologies and tt there are some fonts that are only available as ps fonts if you have a ps font that you want to use use atm otherwise it is a waste of system resources or if you need to use a service bureau and they re only set up to use type fonts from what i ve heard pure hearsay the results of outputting tt fonts as type is not as good as using high quality type fonts in the first place lamont downs downs nevada edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows slower using dos in article hplvec lvld hp com calloway hplvec lvld hp com frank calloway writes not on my system frank calloway nor mine either of them david a fuess dir center for eecs phone fax lawrence livermore national laboratory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	boca xga woes hi i am having some interesting problems with my boca graphics card which is based on the cirrus logic chipset i am not sure exactly which one the problem is as follows if i use any windows driver at x except for the k colour driver ie colour or colour the image on screen becomes too tall no amount of resizing on the monitor will make it fit and if i use excel with the k colour driver it hangs as soon as it loads anyone out there used this card experienced anything similar please reply by mail and i will post any solutions here regards simon simon bernstein man is condemned to be free sartre university of natal durban bernstei shrike und ac za simonfish on irc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help w greenleaf commlib has anyone had experience with the new greenleaf commlib i can t even get their demo winterm to run at baud without dropping characters tnx steve steve alpert w ggn idx systems corp boston massachusetts sra idx com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	filemanager strange sizes in summary line i have just noticed my filemanager doing something strange recently usually the line at the bottom of the filemanager the status bar i guess displays the total disk space and the total number of bytes for the current selection if i select a whole bunch of files i will get an exact byte count recently i notice it incorrectly displays this count it s truncating if i select a file that is say bytes it correctly displays bytes if i select select a file that is bytes it displays bytes not kbytes just bytes if i select it will report only bytes in the selection if i select over a meg worth of files say it reports bytes it s as if it s got a problem with displaying more than characters my system dx m memory stacker dos win i ve run the latest virus scanners scan f prot and they didn t report anything could i have unknowingly altered something that controls the formatting of the status bar in the filemanger nicholas masika masika bnr ca bell northern research ottawa fax opc development operations
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re save my hard disk allocation error cross linked brad banko writes while running the ms quick c compiler in a dos window under windows this evening i got a program has violated system integrity close all applications exit windows and restart your computer error gawd i love windows is there an easy way to restore everything to working order what might be some better approaches you ll probably want to delete any damaged executables and reload them fresh data files should be examined and repaired what might have caused this does the smartdrv cache make me more vulnerable i m suspicious of hard drive caches especially when they cache data writing you re not stupid smartdrive caches things and windows also runs a swap file which may contain data also all of this is pretty risky stuff in a pc environment the straightforward approach would be to run chkdsk with the f option to fix the disk and then it looks like i would probably have to reinstall windows and a few other things a reasonably accurate prediction here s a brief description of how dos stores files there are three pieces to a file the directory entry the fat chain and the data area you can think of these as a sheet of lined notebook paper a sheet of graph paper and a stack of x cards the directory entry notebook paper holds the file name actual size and first cluster number it also holds some other information that s not important right now the file allocation table fat chain graph paper tells where to find the actual data each square of graph paper holds a number if the number is zero the cluster associated with this box is available if it holds a magic number it is either the last piece of a file or a bad unuseable spot on the disk any other number tells which cluster contains the next section of the file the data area x cards is where the actual information is stored the data area is organized as clusters of a fixed size storage is doled out in chunks of one cluster each in your case one cluster is bytes as a cluster is filled another is allocated to read a file you first look at the directory entry to get the starting cluster number now you read the data from that cluster next look at the fat entry for the cluster you just read this will tell you the cluster number for the next chunk of the file naturally these numbers are usually sequential but they can jump around and even go backwards continue reading one cluster at a time as you walk this chain through the fat until you hit the marker which says it s the last cluster in the file chkdsk is the dos utility that checks the sanity and coherence of the directories and the fat and can bludgeon most flaws into submission it doesn t have any intelligence so you have to double check anything it fixes now let s do a bit of a post mortem c gfx vpic cvpic exe c gfx vpic vpic txt c gfx vpic video cfg c gfx vpic orcpro cfg c gfx vpic vga cfg c game goose bird x c winmisc adv winadv exe allocation error size adjusted all of these files have sizes according to the fat which don t match the size reported in their directory entries chkdsk f will alter the directory entries to match the fat size in other words the directory entry for cvpic exe may say the file is bytes long but chkdsk found a fat chain of clusters attached to it my numbers obviously are made up lost allocation units found in chains bytes disk space would be freed disk space was found which is allocated in the fat but is not attached to any directory entry chkdsk f gives you the option of converting these lost chains to files you can then examine the files file chk through file chk and rename or discard them or if you tell chkdsk not to convert them to files then those clusters will simply be marked available in the fat c gfx vpic cvpic exe is cross linked on allocation unit c spart par is cross linked on allocation unit these files are both referencing the same data cluster obviously one of them at least must be wrong it s interesting to note that c spart par is your windows swap file to fix this you should copy each cross linked file to a new name this will fix the cross link by giving the files unique data spaces now delete the cross linked files examine the copies and try to assemble them properly good luck hint missing pieces are likely to be found in those lost chains at the top bytes total disk space bytes in hidden files bytes in directories bytes in user files bytes available on disk your disk is pretty close to full this may be the actual cause of the problem perhaps windows needed to expand its swapfile by an amount which exceeded available disk space in any case the short summary is that something trashed your fat there are utilities that can mirror your fat and help repair damage after something like this but you have to run them before the problem occurs sorry gordon s hlavenka cgordon vpnet chi il us vote straight ticket procrastination party dec rd gordon s hlavenka cgordon vpnet chi il us vote straight ticket procrastination party dec rd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond speedstar driver for v in article bu edu rem buitc bu edu robert mee writes i am looking for a win driver or set for my diamond speedstar mb video card does anybody know of an archive site that has these i looked at cica and it had drivers for the stealth card and for generic et cards but not one specifically for the speedstar is there one or has diamond dropped the speedstar out of the driver development loop i just looked at cica yesterday and noticed that they didn t have anything but i seem to remember seeing something at wuarchive in the mirrors msdos windows directory i think i got my drivers from america online though mmeltzer wam umd edu is marc meltzer president of the meltz inc our job is to play games our hobby is to consult
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re cirrus logic graph card in comp os ms windows misc gardner a kosmos wcc govt nz andy gardner writes in article qms c t news cs tu berlin de wong cs tu berlin de wolfgang jung writes version drivers are due to be release by cirrus soon unfortunately their not available via ftp you have to dial up their bbs in the usa i do this from nz using a k modem to cut down on phone bills it took me around minutes to download the v driver could you please upload to any of the ftp sites such as ftp ciaca indiana edu and announce it here this will benefit people does not have access to their bbs in usa like me thanks a lot beng hang tay
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re truetype fonts that display but do not print in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu avinash silver lcs mit edu avinash chopde writes i just installed a new truetype font under ms windows but though all the applications display the font correctly on the screen quite a few of them fail to print out the document correctly on a laserjet non postscript printer when i use the font in coreldraw the document prints correctly so i assume coreldraw knows that the font has to be downloaded to the printer but when i use the windows accessory write the printer prints square boxes in place of the characters of the new font yet write does display the font correctly on the screen i looked through all the windows and laserjet manuals but got nowhere all of them just make the statement that truetype fonts will print exactly as you see them on the screen so i assume windows knows that a font has to be downloaded automatically but how to make it do that appreciate any help i assume you re using the driver available from cica hp v zip bring up the setup screen of the printer through control panel click on the options button brings up another screen of choices change the graphics mode from hp gl to raster and check the box print truetype as graphics this is only available when you choose raster now you should be able to print all your truetype fonts correctly good luck lei shao ls cunixa cc columbia edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	summary ati graphics ultra questions etc to those interested in the new ati ultra cards i had posted some questions regarding the new ati ultra pro cards and had asked confirmation of some opinions this message is a summary of the responses thanks to all of you that replied the card does not work in a system with m ram a the higher memory limits apply to isa cards only as far as i know the vlb and eisa version should have no problems b i m pretty sure from my experience that the isa version doesn t work in systems with over m ram there is supposed to be way of switching the memory aperture feature off to prevent this but apparently it doesn t work i posted some help me messages on the net and people indicated that the eisa card didn t have this problem c false d the vlb card which i have allows you to set memory aperture over m by using their configuration software no messing with jumpers necessary the m problem is probably valid only for isa cards the card works in a m system with some switches set but it is much slower a again the memory aperture need only be disabled if you have more than m ram eisa and vlb or m isa m should not be a problem for you b dunno c depends on the bus yes if isa no if eisa or localbus the card is interlaced in its bit true colour modes a nope i can use x at hz bit and x at hz bit all non interlaced b yes according to pc magazine they ve tested a local bus version that does x in bit which may or may not be interlaced c not for the pro sometimes for the plus some modes may run only interlaced on certain monitors this has nothing to do with bits only with screen size note that for bit color and windows you must have megs memory size calculations notwithstanding the latest build drivers still do not work in many cases a they aren t perfect but are much improved i don t recall the last time which i had to leave mach mode ati gup mode and switch to or vga mode due to software incompatibility b true many people recommended going back to build or c they appear to be excellent but have a few bugs for example certain graphs with dashed lines in mathcad do not print correctly though they do display ok on the screen they are about par for fancy cards other accelerated cards also have bugs d overall i like the card even if driver performance is somewhat less than satisfactory i am running the color mode as that is all my nt driver for october nt version seems to allow i will say this that color performance is not quite as nice as a diamond stealth vram but i have not been able to try out a lot of the options on the old driver this card is the fastest full colour card for the money a it s quite fast but whether or not its the fastest is open to debate b yes i ll admit it was very very fast in bit mode which is what i wanted to use it for too bad it crashed in many different ways every minutes or so c depends on many many things this card is the greatest thing since sliced bread a i like it b well pc magazine seems to think it is c yes this appears to be true d as to greatest thing since sliced bread i doubt it better cards are coming out who knows maybe ati will come out with something faster yet several reviews i read rated one pycon winjet card as a superior performer at a cheaper price except for availability of drivers which pycon was developing at that time pc magazine about two months or so back overall the card has a lot of potential but you have to be able to use it that is the end of the questions these were the most discussed items in this group so i thought they needed confirmation for those of you not familiar with the card i have included a summary here from an ati ad since i don t have an graphics ultra yet ati graphics ultra plus accelerated x at k colours true colour m at x multimedia video acceleration for indeo video rle and video compressed stretch full motion video windows to full size fast vga includes button mouse isa versions only anti aliased fonts ed avail in colour mode only i think real time pan and zoom across large virtual windows desktop around a length card size priced from u s ati graphics ultra pro everything in graphics ultra plus faster performance with vrams accelerated x at colours hz non interlaced available in isa eisa and microchannel priced from u s ati technologies i hope this summary can be of use to you al p s i am not associated with ati technologies in any way other than having used their previous ati ultra card for a few years which i generally liked alan walford eos systems inc vancouver b c canada tel aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca or uunet wimsey bc ca eosvcr aew
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re yowza sloooowwww printing from dos i also had a simular problem with by nec p it went away when i turned on the print directly to parallel port option in the printer setup apallette mencsh tract und gott lacht yaturner netcom com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows errors and a bad memory hi my last question for the year i have a mail order no name notebook with meg ram i never have problems with my huge ramdisk or when running desqview but win and w w constantly crash on me most commonly citing a memory parity error the only thing i can do is turn off and re boot my cmos ticks off counts all the memory every startup and there is never a problem with this either could it be a bug in my windows copy instead of the hardware i remember having some disk error problems when installing it is there any change i could make to lessen the frequency or likelyhood of this happening i think win vs win s produce different crashes but both crash frequently nonetheless i know this is a pain but please answer by email because my home account doesn t have rn and i will stop asking questions now thank you chet pager chetter ucthpx uct ac za
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bar code fonts i am looking for some bar code fonts especially code of did anybody know any ftp sites or bbs that i can download these types of fonts please email to me if you have any info thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos vfintd and windows sys ini does anyone know what the vfintd device is used for in windows it s under the enh section as device c dos vfintd after upgrading to dos on several machines different types some include it some don t any ideas pl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	books for writing thesis in wfw hi i was wondering if anyone out there knows of any books that give helpful hints and tips on writing thesis papers in wfw i know about the dissertation template that comes with word but i want more i would like to have tips on how to use all the seq bookmark index chapter fields that are available in word i have looked through the help files etc but they really don t explain a whole lot i will post the results that means email me first if i get a lot of different suggestions since i think this might be of help to lots of crazy grad students such as myself thanks brian servis p s how do you change the font that help uses when printing a topic the default is so choppy and hard to read servis author ecn purdue edu it happened this way actual quotes from insurance claims what i say may not be what i think what i say may not be the pedestrian had no idea which what purdue thinks way to go so i ran him over
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trumpet for windows other news readers in article ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok aiyar writes in article apr liris tew kuleuven ac be wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be wim van holder writes what the status of trumpet for windows will it use the windows sockets stuff deleted currently wintrumpet is in very late beta it looks like an excellent product with several features beyond the dos version wintrumpet supports the trumpet tcp novell lwp and there is also a direct to packet driver version that some people are using with the dis pkt shim ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department of biochemistry tel cwru school of medicine cleveland ohio fax what s it gonna cost ginny mcbride oregon health sciences university mcbride ohsu edu networks technical services the purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas obscure poor reasoning and inhibit clarity with a little practice writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog academia here i come calvin hobbes
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re x windows for windows pc xview from ncd hcl exceed from hummingbird software all opinions expressed are my own because nobody else wants them jls antares larc nasa gov jon l sweet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cica mirror is there a ftp cica indiana edu mirror anyware that isn t so busy thanks phil trodwell this space i d be happy to ram a goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter s thompson
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winqvtnet with ndis on token ring in article apr liris tew kuleuven ac be wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be wim van holder writes is it possible to use winqvt net on a machine that uses ndis to connect to a token ring i tried it with older versions but got an invalid packet class error or something the like how are you attempting to do that are you using the dis pkt program this provides a packet driver on top of the ndis driver thomas beagle thomas datamark co nz work o technical writer thomas cavebbs welly gen nz home wellington nz hound for hire will work for dog biscuits
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini in article apr news uit no svein pedersen sp odin fna no writes sorry i did nt tell exactly what i need i need a utility for automatic updating deleting adding changing of ini files for windows the program should run from dos batchfile or the program run a script under windows i will use the utility for updating the win ini and other files on meny pc s do i find it on any ftp host svein if you are managing pc s on a novell network get the network management tools provided by either sabre software or automated design systems among the many features you ll find utilities that can help you to manage ini files stored on users workstations or home directories this is commercial software and well worth the money to date i have not found anything available via ftp that could compare reply to the address in my sig for more info stephen gibson system support specialist sonoma state university email gibsonst sonoma edu stephen gibson sonoma edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	speeding up windows i have a with megs of memory i have noticed that lately when i use programs like wpfw or corel draw my computer boggs down and becomes really sluggish what can i do to increase performance what should i turn on or off will not loading wallpapers or stuff like that help when it comes to the running speed of windows and the programs that run under it thanx in advance derek derek j p serianni e mail djserian flash lakeheadu ca o o sociologist it s miles to chicago we ve got a full tank lakehead university of gas half a pack of cigarettes it s dark and u thunder bay ontario we re wearing sunglasses elwood blues
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows and multiple monitors m apart hi i am working on gathering data on the way that users use computers this involves getting subjects to type and use a mouse i want to be able to watch what they are doing without being in the same room it would be ideal if i could watch the session on another monitor without the subjects knowledge i believe that spliting the monitor cable will only work for short distances ie m i will need to be approx m away as the cable travels the pc s are connected to a tcp ip network and run windows is there any software that will allow me to watch what is happening on another pc thanks regards jon gough trust project
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	order of files written when exitting windows trying to pin point a hardware problem with my disk maxtor at group files get corrupted on a regular basis only happens on this drive d had only one corrupt file in over a year and it was under the control of winword on c bit disk access and smartdrive are off since installation of dblspace problem has turned from an annoyance to a reason for murder since the most frequent files corrupted are the grp files are these the last thing written to when exitting windows also are there any pd shareware utilities available that do a more thorough job than dos ndd etc dos and win compatable thanks mike hayes knowledge is good faber college motto www knowledge and thoroughness rensselear poly motto unemployed tech no thank you groucho marx a day at the races driven to banging my head against engineering physics for years
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how do i quickly switch between windows screen resolutions in article c qlr djl cbnewsl cb att com slg slgsun att com the idealistic cynic writes can someone out there tell me how to switch window s screen resolution quickly and easily i know that i can go back into install to do it but what i d really like is to have is the ability to just change a couple of startup or configuration files and have the resolution changed i already have both video drivers that i need on my system so that isn t a problem thanks sean sean l gilley sean l gilley att com use this address all others bounce h w there is a shareware program called v switch zip i don t remember if it is on wuarchive wustl edu or on ftp cica indiana edu it is easy to use and does the job with no problem eric ebosco us oracle com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows speaker sound driver in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu alee mnemosyne cs du edu alec lee writes is there an ftp site where i can get the ms speaker sound driver there s a sound exe file that claims to be the driver but i m suspicious since it s not a drv file thanks alec lee the sound exe is actually a self extracting script which includes the drv file works great eric
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trumpet for windows other news readers in article mcbride ohsu edu mcbride ohsu edu ginny mcbride writes in article ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok aiyar writes currently wintrumpet is in very late beta it looks like an excellent product with several features beyond the dos version wintrumpet supports the trumpet tcp novell lwp and there is also a direct to packet driver version that some people are using with the dis pkt shim what s it gonna cost again i do not speak for peter tattam but it is my understanding that it will shareware status as trumpet for dos is and i imagine that the registration fees will be similar i also believe that a new version of trumpet for dos will be released sometime in the near future ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department of biochemistry tel cwru school of medicine cleveland ohio fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re emm exe and windows and dos in a previous article rudim cs kuleuven ac be rudi maelbrancke says in windows i created a permanent swap file of kb as win recommended me to do that bit access if i use emm exe after win startup i have k of memory free if i leave emm exe out of my config sys i have k of memory free and windows recommends me a swap file of k i think you need the emm exe noems this will let the expanded mem be active but not use any therefore this will give you more extended mem for windows yet have all the bases covered i use dos with memmaker have mb of internal memory and a dx i do not use dos so i am not familiar with this does anybody knows why this is happening possibly win needs some umb s to manage virtual memory if true which umb s those that emm can find without including suspicious parts i need an optimized dos environment because i develop applications for dos using a windows programming environment rudi c ya artin this communication is sent by artin university of arizona tucson ak cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king of kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	does win use a math co processor if a pc has one does windows use a math co processor i m not talking about specific apps but the os if you want to call it that itself please respond by email peter schwenk schwenk cis udel edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how can i use the mouse in non windows applications under ms windows wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de oliver kretzschmar writes hey could somebody tell me how it is possible to work with the mouse in a non windows application which runs in an window we use ms windows and have clipper applications exists there any routines or something else please mail me your informations thanks for your efforts oliver name o kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de very simple you have to have the mouse com or mouse sys loaded in dos before you run windows note that you don t need to have these files loaded to use the mouse in windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workgroup questions conven ram and licensing in article ra abh h eosvcr wimsey bc ca aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca alan walford writes i would be very appreciative if someone would answer a few questions about windows for workgroups i currently have novell netware lite which does not work with windows very well and is a conventional memory hog ver i am considering moving all our machines to w wg q how much conventional ram does w wg use over and above the driver for the network card about kbyte without novell support q if i have a novell ne card are the lsl and ipx drivers still needed no q does w wg do a license check over the network to ensure each machine is running its own licenced copy of w wg note i do not want to break the license agreement and i will buy a copy of w wg for each of our machines it is just that i would like to try it out first to see if it meets our needs returning one opened copy is much easier than returning n opened copies no q if you buy the upgrade to windows for w wg does it replace all of win as you install it or does it depend on current win files nearly all q if i install windows nt on my server when it comes out will i have any troubles with the w wg machines we run mixed wnt beta and w wg no problem apart from printer sharing beta problem when i started this message i was going to ask only questions but i got carried away i ll stop now we had problems with mouse drivers using w wg where windows didn t seems to be more critical about it it was actualy a port problem with the network card running on x e we changed it to x now everything is allright i think it has to do with the ami bios as well i look forward to your replies al alan walford eos systems inc vancouver b c canada tel aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca or uunet wimsey bc ca eosvcr aew ralf rutherford telecom aust mhsnet rruther cssc melb tansu com au network services snail blackburn rd clayton vic customised software solutions australia center melbourne phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re speeding up windows djserian flash lakeheadu ca reincarnation of elvis writes i have a with megs of memory i have noticed that lately when i use programs like wpfw or corel draw my computer boggs down and becomes really sluggish what can i do to increase performance what should i turn on or off will not loading wallpapers or stuff like that help when it comes to the running speed of windows and the programs that run under it thanx in advance derek make sure your hard drive is defragmented this will speed up more than just windows btw use something like norton s or pc tools i think that leaving the wall paper out will use less ram and therefore will speed up your machine but i could very will be wrong on this there s a good chance you ve already done this but if not it may speed things up good luck morgan bullard mb coewl cen uiuc edu or mjbb uxa cso uiuc edu derek j p serianni e mail djserian flash lakeheadu ca o o sociologist it s miles to chicago we ve got a full tank lakehead university of gas half a pack of cigarettes it s dark and u thunder bay ontario we re wearing sunglasses elwood blues
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	comm drv replacement there was a recent post about a bbs where you could download a replacement for comm drv win x that fixed a lot of the problems with high speed modems does anyone know of an ftp site where i can get it thanks alec lee alec lee aslee diana cair du edu alee cs du edu sexy but what s wrong with being sexy nigel tufnel spinal tap
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re filemanager strange sizes in summary line in apr bmers bnr ca masika bnr ca nicholas masika writes i have just noticed my filemanager doing something strange recently usually the line at the bottom of the filemanager the status bar i guess displays the total disk space and the total number of bytes for the current selection if i select a whole bunch of files i will get an exact byte count recently i notice it incorrectly displays this count it s truncating if i select a file that is say bytes it correctly displays bytes if i select select a file that is bytes it displays bytes not kbytes just bytes if i select it will report only bytes in the selection if i select over a meg worth of files say it reports bytes it s as if it s got a problem with displaying more than characters my system dx m memory stacker dos win i ve run the latest virus scanners scan f prot and they didn t report anything could i have unknowingly altered something that controls the formatting of the status bar in the filemanger it sounds like something one may have set the s separator to in contol panel under international this makes look like and file manager is chopping off what it thinks is the decimal part of the file size becomes and again file manager is confused by the decimal points where there should be commas chopping off everything to the right of the first period tony debari fqdn tonyd ssc sbwk nj us ci uucp uunet ssc tonyd p ghrw b a k a skip bowler captain of usenet fantasy bowling league team
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re quicken vs tobias managing your money i ve never had quicken but i did use mym in it s early days i have ms money for windows now and a financial planning package called wealthbuilder by reality technologies and money magazine p s i also do my taxes with turbo tax all of these packages are good in their own way but none of them really support me in doing what i really need to do manage my finances the first company that comes along with a windows based package that manages budgets and accounts manages loans calculates taxes uses all of the above and knowledge about my investing philosophy to help me invest in the right investment vehicles and integrates it all together will have my business for life ken khackbarth attmail com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cornerstone dualpage driver wanted i am looking for a window driver for cornerstone dualpage cornerstone technology inc video card does anybody know that has these is there one thanks for any info to nis to nis kelder estonian biocentre tkelder kask ebc ee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	printer security mark juric a i programs mjuric ai uga edu university of georgia athens georgia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re cica mirror i find that it s always almost anyway busy when i dial but if i try repeatedly usually only to tries i always get connected
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mouse on com under windows i ve pursued and researched this question over the last month or so because i have the same requirements you do and the long and short of it is that the windows mouse drivers don t accept mice at any but com and com using irq or irq unless you buy special drivers from someone who has them i ve talked to mouse systems who say their driver doesn t support other than com and com as above but who claim to be releasing one that will soon the other alternative seems to be possible but in one case prohibitively expensive i e port card for and in the other the author s of powerbbs for windows claim to have a port serial card with buffered uarts and drivers for windows to match i e com irq for the second paragraph is hearsay because i haven t checked it out yet but intend to as soon as i can free up g hope this will save you some steps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm in article r jq af network ucsd edu adean weber ucsd edu anthony v dean writes i ve been reading with much confusion about whether or not to use atmanager lately all the packages i ve been buying have all included atmanager as a bonus i do some desktop publishing using pagemaker and coreldraw coreldraw comes with a nifty laser disk that contains over diff types add that to the ttfonts that come with win and you have a decent amount of fonts i print my creations out on an hp postcript at dpi resolution with the resolution enhancement technology and well i get some darn good copies so good that there isn t any diff whether or not atmanager is turned on or not is it worth it to run atm at all especially with these better printer technologies and tt atm will do nothing for your truetype fonts if your truetype fonts are sufficient for your needs don t run atm i have a lot of fonts that i can install either as type postscript under atm or as truetype i have noticed that truetype font files are at least larger than their type equivalents if you are using a disk compressor though be aware that truetype fonts will compress whereas type fonts will not they are encrypted with a dpi laser printer the artificial bold version of a truetype font is indistingishable from the original forcing me to install the actual bold and bold italic etc variants if i want to use them type postscript fonts under atm generate a visually distinct bold variant from the base font i realize that the artificial bold font that atm generates is aesthetically inferior to the hand generated bold truetype variant but it is sufficient for my needs and not having to install bold variants saves me on disk space uncompressed bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	many people on one machine i have several people sharing my machine and would like to set up separate environments under windows for each of them is there some way of setting things up separate desktops directories for each of them ideally i d like totally separate virtual machines i d be willing to settle for less and may end up having batch files that copy ini files around depending on who wants to use the machine mark alas setup n doesn t work if you don t have a network
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trnasfering binary files from terminal to unix i m attempting to transfer files from my home computer running windows terminal to a workstation at school the file transfer protocol at home is kermit for binary files i m running kermit on the workstation at school and setting the file transfer protocol to binary i am unable to upload files to school but can download files from school to home during download terminal displays ther retrying message several times then the message verify you re using the correct protocol anyone have any ideas on how to fix either e mail or post to this group thanks in advance brian anderson go pens make it in a row
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re order of files written when exitting windows in article apr ucsu colorado edu hayesj rintintin colorado edu hayes james michael jr writes trying to pin point a hardware problem with my disk maxtor at group files get corrupted on a regular basis only happens on this drive d had only one corrupt file in over a year and it was under the control of winword on c bit disk access and smartdrive are off since installation of dblspace problem has turned from an annoyance to a reason for murder are you using fastopen if you are disable it we had a lot of problems with fastopen corrupting weird things including the windows permanent swap file when we were using it since the most frequent files corrupted are the grp files are these the last thing written to when exitting windows indeed they are advanced personal measure tells me they are accessed just before shell dll also are there any pd shareware utilities available that do a more thorough job than dos ndd etc dos and win compatable i really like spinrite and qa plus tom paladin world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x greetings i ve had a bunch of problems with the x opening a dos window on the desktop can occasionally result in the windows blowing up into a set of horizontal lines hashing the entire desktop nothing can recover this except to completely exit from windows the other irritating problem is that windows that scroll often overwrite lines rather than actually scrolling as if a cr was printed without an lf this seems only to happen to communications programs but i can t nail it down any further than that note though that the comms programs don t have to be communicating even just scrolling back through capture buffers or displaying disk files in these programs causes the problem prior to the latest rev of word perfect for windows wpwin would sometimes blow up and the error message would cite the video driver as the source of the problem i ve still seen this but only once or twice with wpwin dave zimmerman my opinions are my own
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	searching for a phonetic font i m searching for a phonetic truetype font for windows if anybody knows one please mail me thanks dw dipl inform dietmar weidlich ifado ardeystr weidlich arb phys uni dortmund de d dortmund phone dr b koennten sie das fax mal eben erledigen
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workspace manager for win are there any workspace managers out there for windows by a workspace manager i mean something like the hp apollo workstations have multiple workspaces under x there is a window at the bottom of the screen which allows you to select different workspaces it overcomes the problem of having stacks of windows open on the one screen instead you can spread them amongst different workspaces which act like independent screens and you can flick between them thanks in advance
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re searching for a phonetic font weidlich arb phys uni dortmund de weidlich writes i m searching for a phonetic truetype font for windows if anybody knows one please mail me thanks dw dipl inform dietmar weidlich ifado ardeystr weidlich arb phys uni dortmund de d dortmund phone dr b koennten sie das fax mal eben erledigen yes i m looking for phonetic font s too so if you know one please mail me too thanks in advance patrick hudepohl vu amsterdam the netherlands
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows for workgroups and lan workplace hey sounds great does that mean that w wg works with odi i thought it uses ndis wfwg does use ndis but it cooperates well with the ndis shim for odi i ve heard that it is as fast as ndis direct my problem is that lan workplace with all its drivers uses up most of my umbs so i d hate to have to load many more drivers to make w wg work along the additional tsr load is minimal i think i eat another k total this is worth it to me since it allows me to get to my windows nt box novell hasn t released a decent nt novell client yet so i share through my wfwg box this solution is very usable
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	vb decompiler subject says it all do any exist are they shareware where phil trodwell this space i d be happy to ram a goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter s thompson
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows speaker sound driver tony s annese claebaur shell portal com wrote in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu alee mnemosyne cs du edu alec lee writes is there an ftp site where i can get the ms speaker sound driver there s a sound exe file that claims to be the driver but i m suspicious since it s not a drv file thats the file it s a self extracting archive run it and it extracts a drv file michael groeten uit o michael schaap o nederland t p mscha ctp com ctp sherrif inc dept damn good coffee and hot
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need longer filenames in apr guinness idbsu edu lhighley gozer idbsu edu larry paul highley wrote is there a utility out there that will let me use filenames longer than the standard format if so please email me please e mail me too thanks howard hfeldman infoserv com howard feldman mind s eye inc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how can i use the mouse in non windows applications under ms windows kasajian netcom com kenneth kasajian writes wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de oliver kretzschmar writes hey could somebody tell me how it is possible to work with the mouse in a non windows application which runs in an window we use ms windows and have clipper applications exists there any routines or something else please mail me your informations thanks for your efforts oliver name o kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de very simple you have to have the mouse com or mouse sys loaded in dos before you run windows note that you don t need to have these files loaded to use the mouse in windows one addition to this i don t know if it applies to everybody for my microsoft dpi mouse to work with windowed dos apps i had to use the driver that came with windows version didn t allow me to do it for some reason
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files has anybody gotten this bmp to work i try to uudecode it but i get input file error and no picture anybody casey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hard drive compression ie stacker superstor etc i was wondering if any one knew how the various hard drive compression utilities work my hard drive is getting full and i don t want to have to buy a new one what i m intrested in is speed ease of use amount of compression and any other aspect you think might be important as i ve never use one of these things before thanks morgan bullard mb coewl cen uiuc edu or mjbb uxa cso uiuc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how can i use the mouse in non windows applications under ms windows in article ucsu colorado edu gonzaled ucsu colorado edu lgv mc writes kasajian netcom com kenneth kasajian writes wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de oliver kretzschmar writes hey could somebody tell me how it is possible to work with the mouse in a non windows application which runs in an window we use ms windows and have clipper applications exists there any routines or something else please mail me your informations thanks for your efforts oliver name o kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de very simple you have to have the mouse com or mouse sys loaded in dos before you run windows note that you don t need to have these files loaded to use the mouse in windows one addition to this i don t know if it applies to everybody for my microsoft dpi mouse to work with windowed dos apps i had to use the driver that came with windows version didn t allow me to do it for some reason i could never find the microsoft mouse driver on my windows installation disks but dos also has version of mouse com stephen thomas at t tridom email sat eng tridom com attmail tridom sat
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should be just venting steam sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications d hfac brigham young university provo ut hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ms windows access for the blind we are developing an ms windows based product that uses a full screen window to display rows of textual data is there any product for microsoft windows that will enable blind individuals to access the data efficiently quickly please email responses and i will post a summary to this group thanks for any help john bruno
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ms windows access for the blind in article apr cci cci com jfb cci cci com john bruno writes from jfb cci cci com john bruno subject ms windows access for the blind date thu apr gmt we are developing an ms windows based product that uses a full screen window to display rows of textual data is there any product for microsoft windows that will enable blind individuals to access the data efficiently quickly please email responses and i will post a summary to this group thanks for any help john bruno apparently microsoft came out with a new product ms braille it is suppose to be wytiwig no offense marc trottier mtrottie emr emr ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	postscript file viewer a co worker of mine needs to convert a postscript file to a form readable ie ascii in windows or dos does anybody know of a utility that will do this i have a vague memory of a shareware utility someone mentioned once thanks for any info barry
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for printer driver i m looking for a c itoh printer driver for windows does anybody happen to know where i could find such a beast thanks in advance jerry look ma no signature
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re looking for printer driver jeremi ee ualberta ca william jeremiah writes i m looking for a c itoh printer driver for windows does anybody happen to know where i could find such a beast uh slight clarification that should be a printer driver for the c itoh lips laser printer thanks again thanks in advance jerry look ma no signature
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x in article apr condor navsses navy mil zimm condor navsses navy mil writes greetings i ve had a bunch of problems with the x opening a dos window on the desktop can occasionally result in the windows blowing up into a set of horizontal lines hashing the entire desktop nothing can recover this except to completely exit from windows the other irritating problem is that windows that scroll often overwrite lines rather than actually i posted a similar query and got these replies which i am testing so far so good turn hardware scrolling off before going into windows xmode scrolloff in the pif file for dos window set emulate text mode get the latest drivers from the diamond bbs or cica dates are steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc voice north lexington avenue fax arden hills mn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how can i use the mouse in non windows applications under ms windows in article apr ucsu colorado edu gonzaled ucsu colorado edu lgv mc writes one addition to this i don t know if it applies to everybody for my microsoft dpi mouse to work with windowed dos apps i had to use the driver that came with windows version didn t allow me to do it for some reason for logitech rodents use the lmouse driver that comes with windows also you need to be using a video driver that supports use of the mouse both the vga and supervga that come with windows will support it both of these are color drivers if you re lucky the manufacturer of your video card might have a driver that is compatable and will support a mouse steve stephen guerke coord computer resources sguerke brahms udel edu university of delaware parallel program stephen guerke mvs udel edu georgetown de ilv udelvm udel edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to hold the control to a window object hope i am in the right group i m using bc s objectwindows version trying to get some date processed in a window object however when invoking the window object the calling program gives up the control to the window object and keeps executing the next statement the source code may look like the following class mywindow public twindow void mycallingprog could the calling program be a c function mywindow mywinobj mywinobj new mywindow getapplication makewindow mywinobj mywinobj show sw shownormal next statement i want the program to wait here until mywinobj is closed so that i can get some data back from mywinobj i specified the window style to be ws popupwindow didn t help is there any other way to execute the window object so that the calling program won t give up the control any help would be appreciated thanks jun to talk to the lord with ps through ms windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re telix problem dericks plains nodak edu dale erickson writes when i use telix or kermit in win or use telix after exiting windows to dos telix can not find the serial port if you have some ideas on how to solve this problem or where i can find further information send me email or send it to the news group thanks you may have to define your serial ports under windows i think it s the control panel ports options dale erickson dericks plains nodak edu mattias mattias hembruch my views do not necessarily reflect those of the tse e mail mhembruc tse com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re midi files on ms win and soundblaster the cybard dudek acsu buffalo edu wrote i have a dx computer with a soundblaster card i m running microsoft windows v i have the sb driver set up properly to play normal sounds wav files etc i want to play midi files through the media player that is included with windows i know i have to set up the patch maps or something in the midi mapper in the control panel i know nothing about midi this is to be the way i ll get my feet wet how do i set up windows so that i can play midi files if you install the soundblaster windows drivers correctly and have the latest drivers the media player should be setup to play files authored to microsoft s multimedia midi authoring standard general midi see the section in the back of the voyetra manual in the soundblaster midi upgrade kit you ll find that midi files exist with all kinds of different mappings so don t expect them to always sound correct without using some kind of midi file editor such as voyetra s sequencer plus you can attempt to use the midi mapper to remap the patches for soundblaster but since you cannot modify the sbfm drv you are allways stuck with the instruments that come with this driver unless you can find an editor for making modifications to the instrument settings in sbfm drv i would suggest you locate the early version of soundblaster drivers that were mapped to mt voices and the later drivers that are mapped to the general midi voices david thomas dudek v pwxs ubvms bitnet the cybard state university dudek sun acsu buffalo edu of new york if music be the food of love buffalo play on wm shakespeare
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trumpet for windows other news readers where s an ftp site for trumpet other than wuarchive umich something off the beaten path thanks malcolm
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted sample source for editing controls hi everyone i would like to get an example program source code to get started with a simple editor similar to windows dialog editor but lot simplified can someone point me to a source such as a programming windows book or example program comes with windows sdk from microsoft or borland i would greatly appreciate it all i want to do is to be able to place a edit control or combobox or a listbox on a window and be able to drag and resize if anyone has written similar program and don t mind sharing code or ideas i would appreciate it very much thnx in advance manu das please send me directly at manu oas olivetti com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re speeding up windows in article thunder lakeheadu ca djserian flash lakeheadu ca reincarnation of elvis writes i have a with megs of memory i have noticed that lately when i use programs like wpfw or corel draw my computer boggs down and becomes really sluggish what can i do to increase performance what should i turn on or off will not loading wallpapers or stuff like that help when it comes to the running speed of windows and the programs that run under it thanx in advance derek you can try defraging your disk more often it definitely will help speed things up a megs smartdrv is also a good idea with the amount of memory you have and use fastdisk bit access if you not already hope that help n ngo
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows disk drive test availabel is their a pd freeware hard drive utility that can handle a compressed ide drive without screwwing it up need to document occasional failures in reading writing check overall integrity of disk s hardware and sectors i believe that all of my problems with dos windows can be isolated to my drive getting occasional corrupted files even with smartdrive bit access turned off had these problems under dos only with drive c drive d may have had one failure but that file was under the control of win winword on drive c all utilities available to me report no problems dos ndd nu another symptom sd took forever on c and kicked me out with a suspension till ndd run to times thanks mike hayes knowledge is good faber college motto www knowledge and thoroughness rensselear poly motto unemployed tech no thank you groucho marx a day at the races driven to banging my head against engineering physics for years
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet in article apr csd newshost stanford edu kayman csd d stanford edu robert kayman writes hello fellow netters i am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer i should purchase the canon bj bubblejet vs the hp deskjet i thought rather than trust the salesperson i would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential and i figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson now i would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the dpi of the canon bubblejet vs the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which is faster is there a noticeable print quality difference particularly in graphics which will handle large documents better pages or more any personal experience on either will be appreciated here which works better under windows any driver problems etc cost of memory font packages toner cartridges etc basically your personal experiences with either of these machines is highly desirable both good and bad advance kudos and thanks for all your input e mail or news posting is readily acceptable but e mail is encouraged limits bandwidth sincerely robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu or cpa cs stanford edu in theory theory and practice are the same in practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision of the original revised revision revised sorry for the followup but i couldn y get email through on your addresses i too am trying to decide between these two printers and i would like to hear what users of these printers have to say about the questions above thank you randy randy msc cornell edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re moving icons in article bp rahpbh h viamar uucp rutgers viamar kmembry writes i remember reading about a program that made windows icons run away from the mouse as it moved near them does anyone know the name of this program and the ftp location probably at cica the file is frite zip and you ll find it in the icons directory at cica the one line description is afflict your icons with cursorphobia o paul blackman pwb science canberra edu au o water research centre pwb aerg canberra edu au o faculty of applied science o university of canberra australia spend a little love and get high lenny kravitz
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workspace manager for win in article r uml werple apana org au jamie zikzak apana org au jamie scuglia writes are there any workspace managers out there for windows try workshift by karl thoreddson the latest version is or later but the following is at cica in the desktop directory wrksft zip workshift graphical virtual desktop ver or email karl and ask him to put version up karl s email karlth rhi hi is from the ms write file of v i was beta tester for workshift and must say it is very good i gain nothing from saying that it ll even remember your workshifts workspaces as you said between windows sessions thanks in advance your welcome o paul blackman pwb science canberra edu au o water research centre pwb aerg canberra edu au o faculty of applied science o university of canberra australia spend a little love and get high lenny kravitz
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet i edited a few newsgroup from that line don t like to crosspost that much i can t compare the two but i recently got an hp deskjet i m very pleased with the output remember that i m used to imagens laser and postscript printers at school looks very good you have to be careful to let it dry before touching it as it will smudge the deskjet is slow this is in comparison to the other printers i mentioned i have no idea how the bubblejet compares the interface between win and the printer is just dandy i ve not had any problems with it hope that helps some cindy cindy tittle moore internet tittle ics uci edu bitnet cltittle uci bitnet uucp ucbvax ucivax tittle usnail po box irvine ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	out of environment space running bat files from windows i have a bat file that i run under a windows icon i have set up a pif file to run the bat file in exclusive mode and to use the entire screen the first line of the bat file sets an environment variable my problem is that on some of our machines running ms dos and windows in enhanced mode the set command in the bat file fails with the out of environment space error i have raised the amount of environment space to bytes using the shell command in config sys so i know that i am nowhere near to running out if i just click on the ms dos icon i can create a bunch of environment varibles from the dos shell the problem is that on some machines setting the value of an environment variable in a bat file fails has anyone seen such behavior before i see no place in the pif fail to configure environment space lance j gay internet gay venice sedd trw com trw systems engineering development div phone carson ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re many people on one machine in cda ucf vm bitnet cda ucf vm bitnet mark woodruff writes i have several people sharing my machine and would like to set up separate environments under windows for each of them is there some way of setting things up separate desktops directories for each of them ideally i d like totally separate virtual machines i d be willing to settle for less and may end up having batch files that copy ini files around depending on who wants to use the machine you could use dos to do this partly you can set up different config sys and autoexec bat commands for each user and they just have to select their menu option on bootup then you can have the autoexec bat copy the win ini and system ini files and change directories for them when they exit windows it can copy back generic ini files if you want this is the only way i can think of there may be some programs somewhere that allow you to do this better though using dos allows each person to have a custom config sys and autoexec bat greg williams georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gw internet gw prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	in need of help ok i have a problem that i thought you guys gals might know about i m running a dx with a mb hdd i also have windows but hardly any dos application will run out it also when i do a mem command it says that i have used up kb out of kb of conventional memory zero from upper level memory and all kb of my ems memory and to top it off i can t load any device drivers into upper memory do i just need more memory also why would it use up ems memory instead of upper memory please reply by e mail only to wes tamvenus tamu edu bill scrivener it s not the first time that you texas a m university sleep with a woman that matters college station texas but the first time email wes tamvenus tamu edu you wake up with her
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trident cl x driver in article c qkua chn da vinci it uswc uswest com dfeldman lookout mtt it uswc uswest com david feldman says please excuse if faq but new trident cl based card claims to have x support drivers with card indicate several x drivers on diskette windows does not make all drivers on diskette available to configuration dialog box any suggestion thanx please e mail dfeldman uswest com since we are in the subject i have one more question i have a trident c video card i want to know what is the latest video driver for it so far all i can find is that an old driver dated aug in garbo uwasa fi anyone have any info please e mail me at axh psuvm psu edu az
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm in article downs helios nevada edu downs helios nevada edu lamont downs writes so good that there isn t any diff whether or not atmanager is turned on or not is it worth it to run atm at all especially with these better printer technologies and tt there are some fonts that are only available as ps fonts if you have a ps font that you want to use use atm otherwise it is a waste of system resources or if you need to use a service bureau and they re only set up to use type fonts from what i ve heard pure hearsay the results of outputting tt fonts as type is not as good as using high quality type fonts in the first place unless you print to file with the correct resolution set for the final output device image setter a problem with tt fonts in windows is that they do get converted to t format ok and the hinting is even used while this is done but the resulting t fonts are not hinted the result is that they will work fine on a device of the resolution assumed by the printer driver when the ps file is generated but they will not look good when printed at a different resolution so when you print to an attached ps printer with the ps driver set up for this printer results may be quite good but if you take a ps file made for that printer and run it on a device of different resolution such as an image setter then the results may not be so good
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winqvt net v an earlier article in this newsgroup made reference to winqvt net version realy where i tried archie with no luck it s probably just a typo but i sure would like to get one if it s real as i too have a printer problem in winqvt david a fuess dir center for eecs phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	new windows drivers for cirrus gd graphic cards i have uploaded the most recent windows drivers for the cirrus gd chip based display cards to the uploads directory at ftp cica indiana edu file is dr zip they re very recent i downloaded them from the cirrus bbs last night if you are unable to get them there email me and maybe i can upload them to some other sites as well i have a local bus based card vl bitblaster from micron but i think the drivers work with isa cards or at least includes drivers for them i found the new drivers to be a significant improvement over the version improving my graphic winmarks v by about million to although this could be the result of intentional benchmark cheating on cirrus s part but i don t think so from steve gibson s columnist for info world graphic card comparisons also found at the cica ftp site under the name winadv zip i extracted the following for the sake of comparison wintach winbn word sprsht cad paint overall steve s system vlb ati graphics ultra pro my system sx vlb vl bitblaster its no viper but i think its a hell of a deal at about a third of the cost of the ati card and when compared to the other cards included in gibson s review micron system owner s i would be interested to hear your opinions on the dtc vl local bus disk controller my system came with a maxtor drive mb and at first was only giving me disk winmarks of about kb s i am now at kb s is this about as good as it gets i can t get a norton s sysinfo disk reading because the contoller intercepts the calls at least that was what the program said oliver weatherbee oliver earthview
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re adaptec scsi device driver for win 
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet the deskjet is slow this is in comparison to the other printers i mentioned i have no idea how the bubblejet compares the interface between win and the printer is just dandy i ve not had any problems with it i just bought a bj printer a couple of days ago i compared it to the sample print of an hp deskjet and knew that the hp wasn t for me the bj is pretty fast and really prints with good quality i can compare it with the hp laserjet iiid postscript and they look almost identical depending on the kind of paper i don t have problems with the ink not being dry it seems to dry very fast probably within a second since canon is giving a rebate until the end of may it is really a good buy sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications d hfac brigham young university provo ut hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini in article apr lut ac uk a d bailey lut ac uk adrian d bailey writes in windows there is a built in called sysedit exe that is just what you need windows i don t know it s there tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	data corruption i quit windows normally to run a special dos app got done with it and tried to start windows ok got the title screen windows background dos with an error about loading progman exe hum yep progman exe is still there must be bad ok pull off progman exe from a backup tape start windows get the windows title screen windows background dos with the same error hum fire up the good ol norton disk doctor test lost clusters ok fix them and look through them doesn t look important remove the windows directory and reinstall from disks fire up windows title screen background program manager success i have a amy with meg of ram meg hd svga running under dos no special memory managers or stuff just the basic windows a meg permanent swap file using bit access i mainly use windows to run more that one dos app at a time ie downloading with qmodem with a dos window open and possibly pov running in the background i ve noticed that since i started using windows a few months ago lost clusters have gotten more and more common although i don t like having data just disappear it really haven t been a problem except for today has anyone else had any problems with lost clusters while running windows and what could i do to fix the problem i d sleep better knowing amy wasn t loosing her marbles steven steven marcotte sdoran matt ksu ksu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winqvt net v in article lorien ocf llnl gov dave angmar llnl gov dave fuess writes an earlier article in this newsgroup made reference to winqvt net version realy where i tried archie with no luck it s probably just a typo not a typo it was uploaded to ftp cica indiana edu a couple days back but i sure would like to get one if it s real as i too have a printer problem in winqvt version uses standard windows printer drivers ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department of biochemistry tel cwru school of medicine cleveland ohio fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files james dlss james cummings writes in article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu john wang writes hi everybody i guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file i can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc i used to have some unfortunately i delete them all anyway could me give me some help please in response to a different kinda wallpaper here s what i use i think the original gif whatever was called not real the artist name and logo is in the lower right corner you will need vga i think and i have this sized for x color screens use this in your windows directory and do not tile it hope you enjoy deleted a lot of stuff how do you convert this to a bit map
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos quick c crashes windows i am using dos quick c in a dos window under windows and the other day while i was running the compiler i got a general protection fault immediately followed by a serious disk error when i rebooted i found that about files had gotten cross linked which is a pretty serious corruption of the hard drive file system i am concerned that quick c in a dos window has somehow strayed outside its protected mode world and corrupted the smartdrv exe disk cache and that is what caused the disk problem i thought that dos programs run in dos windows were pretty well contained by windows if that is true then maybe the quick c compiler has nothing to do with it has anybody else had this type of problem i only recently upgraded from quick c to brad banko brad banko dept of physics u of illinois b banko uiuc edu see one do one teach one de kb cne n lnq il
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	turbo c visual edition adn request was re absolute newbie questions in article wiggins apr buttercup cs odu edu wiggins buttercup cs odu edu samuel e wiggins writes btw how would you rate the new borland turbo c visual edition for windows anyone time for a new discussion maybe i asked in these groups some time ago what about the tc ve and got no answers so i decided to try my brother who lives in the us bought and sent it to me and i m still trying to get used to it before i put my good bad points list consider i am a turbo pascal dos programmer and sometimes try to make something in unix with c just some exercises from university i used to make some programs in microsoft c version because we used some third party libraries that required that i like borland it seems to me much more easier to use than microsoft specially the debugger i tried to learn codeview sometimes but never felt confortable with it tc v e seems very nice to create simple apps like the examples on the objectwindows book so far no problems lets see next week or so when i will try something more complex it works nice even in my weak machine mhz mb ram but the manual for the resource workshop seems to be from a different version from the workshop itself some of the windows that appear on the manual have more itens than in the manual i think i will run into trouble since i got this tc ve from my brother as a present i didnt wanted to buy the japanese version because i suspect that the manuals will be in japanese and i believe it will be far more expensive here so he bought it as a present and sent to me i send the registration card to the japanese branch of borland but who knows so i d like to ask some questions for you all i know that there are some microsoft guys around here in this group is there anybody from borland is there any e mail address that we can contact the technical support not for stupid questions but to ask for example why the rw manual seems to be different from the rw itself is there anybody else using it around here will the book of petzold be useful for me i intend to use rw and protogen to make the interfaces and then work on the code itself answers to my e mail or comp os ms windows programmer tools please thanks in advance rafael
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ms windows access for the blind in article mtrottie emr emr ca mtrottie emr emr ca marc trottier writes in article apr cci cci com jfb cci cci com john bruno writes from jfb cci cci com john bruno subject ms windows access for the blind date thu apr gmt we are developing an ms windows based product that uses a full screen window to display rows of textual data is there any product for microsoft windows that will enable blind individuals to access the data efficiently quickly please email responses and i will post a summary to this group thanks for any help john bruno apparently microsoft came out with a new product ms braille it is suppose to be wytiwig no offense marc trottier mtrottie emr emr ca at the micro oft display at fose there were a few computers running windows and win apps for the blind i think didn t pay much attention to it but it was there mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	is it possible hello is it possible to know minimize program manager when starting an application and to restore it when the application is ended if possible please tell me how to do it forever michael jordan tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu tw
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help disappearing groups salutations i don t usually subscribe to these newsgroups so i would really appreciate it if someone could possibly e mail me the answer to my problem i have been using windows since buying it last winter but i have just now come across an annoying bug i now have about different groups in program manager but it seems that everytime i install something new that makes a new group it promptly disappears after i turn of windows this happened when i installed excel and winfax pro v they both created their own groups but when i turned off windows and reran them they were gone i had to manually pull them up as new items and put them in a previously existing group as all new gropus disappear as soon as i turn off windows my set up precision dx w megs trident c with meg windows running in x colour mode logitech mouseman thank you in advance emile woo ewoo unixg ubc ca emile woo student representative to senate sig unavailable holding internet ewoo unixg ubc ca referendum to decide politic tel ally correct witticism
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bungee after dark module uploaded hey folks just moments ago i uploaded the bungee jumper after dark module that was widely talked about on here some time ago it s at ftp cica indiana edu in pub pc win uploads titled simply bungee zip be sure to set your ftp connection to binary mode before downloading if you have any other after dark shareware freeware modules please upload them too the more the merrier andrew andrew bennett ajbennett miavx acs muohio edu what planet are you from
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re dos vfintd and windows sys ini peter p lei lei rtsg mot com wrote does anyone know what the vfintd device is used for in windows it s under the enh section as device c dos vfintd i know norton desktop for windows includes this file and its help file mentioned something about floppy disk access jeroen j c a gremmen email jeroeng blade stack urc tue nl gildelaan phone no modem or fax pleez ph hilvarenbeek
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how can i use the mouse in non windows in article iq netcom com kasajian netcom com kenneth kasajian writes wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de oliver kretzschmar writes hey could somebody tell me how it is possible to work with the mouse in a non windows application which runs in an window we use ms windows and have clipper applications exists there any routines or something else please mail me your informations thanks for your efforts oliver name o kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de very simple you have to have the mouse com or mouse sys loaded in dos before you run windows note that you don t need to have these files loaded to use the mouse in windows and you need a video driver which is completely windows compatible and your mouse driver has to be completely compatible as well not quite so simple i never could get my logitech mouse to work in a dos window with my old paradise card now i have a diamond ss x and the mouse drivers and everything works perfectly steven m
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re grey scale while in windows kevin marshall operational support motorola ecid swindon uk e mail marshalk zeus phone international domestic
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workspace managers for win a small review thanks to all those people who recommended workspace managers for windows i found shareware workspace managers from australia s ms windows archive monu cc monash edu au which mirrors some sites in the u s the three i found were workspaces wspace zip this was the smallest and simplest of the workspace managers that i found it is very easy to use it displays a small window containing buttons plus an extra button for configuration purposes one annoying feature was the title window that is first presented when it is run you must press a key not a mouse button for the thing to go away also it would have been nice if there was an always on top setting for the little window containing the workspace buttons maybe some user specified strings on the buttons instead of the numbers one to six might be a nice feature the simplicity and ease of use of this workspace manager makes it an attractive package workshift wrksft zip while this workspace manager offered a few features that workspaces lacked it was quite time consuming to set things up with workspaces all but the first workspace is initially empty with workshift you need to take snapshots of how you want each of your workspaces to look like i e what applications they contain also the main window is quite large but this does allow you to have a small view of what is in each workspace with workspaces there was no facility for viewing what was in a workspace without switching to it workshift provides this viewing functionality which is quite useful bigdesk and backmenu backdesk zip this is an interesting package which contains a few other goodies as well as a workspace manager other goodies include backmenu which provides a pop up root menu when you press a certain mouse button just like in x windows the menu is totally configurable offering unlimited depth of cascading menus which is provides quite handy access to applications you could say it is a menu based alternative to the program manager also bundled in backdesk zip is a program called wrun which allows you to run windows applications from a dos shell under windows instead of using the file manager to run applications the actual workspace manager is called bigdesk bigdesk works quite differently to the other two workspace managers in that it doesn t provide a certain number of disjoint and separate workspaces in fact it basically enlarges your desktop by a configurable amount and you choose which region of the desktop you want your screen to focus in on this means you can have windows overlapping between different viewing regions unlike the first two workspace managers in which each workspace was isolated from the other one the bigdesk control window allows to to move windows around your enlarged desktop basically the control window provides a small scale view of your viewing area while your actual computer screen provides a large scale or blow up of a particular section try each of them out for yourself i was impressed with all of them so find out which one suits your needs the best
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc in article c rx b kzp ecf toronto edu leebr ecf toronto edu lee brian writes in article qu ud hd sunb ocs mq edu au eugene mpce mq edu au writes in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc theoretically supposed to be reduced not any longer that s why everyone is arguing about risc v s cisc personally i think cisc will win out just take a look at the pentium not that i like intel architectures either but that s another story bye do you mean that the pentium is better than a risc or that it will outsell them all if the first you have to remember that intel cisc like the pentium are a always a generation away from the best riscs also riscs cpu are more costly because they are not sold in the same quantities not even on the same order but i remember reading about years maybe about a t from hypercube that did a mips was superscallar and reordered its instruction itself so
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dmqs files for xga was re catseye x xga extra modes note the followups are set to comp os os misc dmqs files describe monitors and valid modes to be used by the xga under both windows and os these files are unsupported ibm has nothing to do with these files or this post it s personal this time and every time i post see the signature due to demand and requests here are some additional dmqs files i ve collected for the xga these files function with the latest revision of the drivers for the xga not all these files will work under windows with the drivers available to the general public at this time all files will function under the most recent os beta and those i ve tried have worked under os sp not all files have been fully tested these files are unsupported they represent a personal collection not anything resembling an officially supported set as a standard disclaimer i would like to point out the following facts some of these files may run your adapter out of spec doing so can stress the ics on the card and may result in incorrect operation or in shorter life how short depends on how much out of spec boom some of these files may run your adapter in a region that is out of spec for your monitor resulting in damage to your monitor you should be knowledgable about your monitor and adapter s ability to use the mode you select using these files represents hacking in a very true sense so practice safe computing and don t play around too much if you don t like the risks and aren t knowledgable about what you re doing if you feel uncomfortable with all the warnings use the dmqs files you have or wait until ibm releases official tested dmqs files although you should be aware of warning even with the ibm files these files are unsupported by using them you may invalidate your warrenty not all have been fully tested i don t have that many monitors installation unpack in your dmqspath environment variable usually c xga dmqs then use the methods described in your xga installation diskette to change your adapter or settings packing these files have been packed with the latest infozip utility you will need pkzip x if you don t have the infozip utilities submitting feel free to send me uuencoded versions of your favorite dmqs files for your favorite monitors i m always interested in collecting more archive these files have been uploaded to ftp os nmsu edu in pub uploads xga dmqs zip dick kaul my opinions only not official ibm positions offers ibm visual subsystems data or anything else if i were to speak for ibm boca raton fl they d make me wear a suit kaul vnet ibm com beware of programmers carrying screwdrivers
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	utility to expand dos file descriptions in directory listing i am looking for a windows utility that would give me a listing of files in a directory but also display a description of the file this utility would allow me to enter and edit file descriptions of hopefully any length maybe a small window with a scroll bar i would then be able to browse my directories and be able to see what is in a file without having to open or execute it any such beast out there if not anyone want to write one joe barrus barrus nosc mil
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	info on books on bios etc hi everybody i am interested in the following topics bios programming on and memory management in and developing visual basic custom controls i would like to have your valuable opinion on the books that are best in the above topics please send a mail to rmehta paul rutgers edu i will post a summary of the suggestions thanks in advance rahul mehta
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	sigma designs video sound card does anyone out there use a sigma designs video sound card the model is called win storm pc they also have one model the legend lx any info on these like performance and compatibility or even problems encountered will be appreciated thanks srini w seetharam
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	program manager two questions is it possible to change the icons in the program groups i d like to give them some individuality can you set up a short cut key to return to the program manager i know ctl esc esc will do it but i d rather set it up so i can avoid the task list and get back to the p m with alt f any and all help is welcomed help stamp out stupid signature files gerry swetsky wb ebo vpnet public access unix and usenet home vpnet lisbon vpnet chi il us
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ss x questions just got a ss x based on its good ratings but am a little under impressed first is it s performance in mill supposed to be comparable to a trident or other unaccelerated vga i came up with only ok performance on winspeed in it was between good and great second does anyone know where to get that jpg viewer for the ss x i saw it on cica or something does it work better thanks for any help greg i i i gregory s king i the quality of life is i i aeronautical engineering i directly proportional to i i cal poly slo i how fast you drive i
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet in c byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes the deskjet is slow this is in comparison to the other printers i mentioned i have no idea how the bubblejet compares the interface between win and the printer is just dandy i ve not had any problems with it i just bought a bj printer a couple of days ago i compared it to the sample print of an hp deskjet and knew that the hp wasn t for me the bj is pretty fast and really prints with good quality i can compare it with the hp laserjet iiid postscript and they look almost identical depending on the kind of paper i don t have problems with the ink not being dry it seems to dry very fast probably within a second since canon is giving a rebate until the end of may it is really a good buy how much is the bj going for i got mine for which was in the end the deciding factor for me cindy cindy tittle moore internet tittle ics uci edu bitnet cltittle uci bitnet uucp ucbvax ucivax tittle usnail po box irvine ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re program manager two questions in article apr vpnet chi il us lisbon vpnet chi il us gerry swetsky writes is it possible to change the icons in the program groups i d like to give them some individuality can you set up a short cut key to return to the program manager i know ctl esc esc will do it but i d rather set it up so i can avoid the task list and get back to the p m with alt f i use plugin an enhancement to program manager it allows for sure i don t know on anyway give it a try i like it a lot and registered it right away it can be found at ftp cica indiana edu in pub pc win util plugin zip bruce bruce f steinke never know when you re going to bsteinke dsd es com need a good piece of rope software technical support engineer sam gamgee evans sutherland computer corp my mail my opinions
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trident vga drivers hi i have a trident tvga video card and need the updated drivers for win where can i get them from an ftp site thanks bj
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more diamond ss x in article apr samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card is only in windows i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup i had the exact same failure with the x and word for windows a quick call to microsoft indicated it was problem with the x drivers you need to call diamond and get the new drivers i think version fixes the above problem there may be later versions that i m unaware of dale r pischke dale odetics com or uunet odetics dale senior software engineer odetics gyyr division
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	tidying up after removing an ole server a while ago i installed spss for windows as part of an evaluation once the evaluation was complete i duly deleted the software from my pc unfortunately there is still a ghost of spss left when i run something like write and go to embed an object then spss chart appears on the list of objects i m offered i looked around all the obvious ini files without success the next thing i tried was looking for the string spss chart in every file in the windows directory it turned up in a file called req dat or reg dat unfortunately the file was binary and so i didn t feel inclined to edit it i d welcome a solution for removing spss from the list of ole servers chris wooff c wooff liverpool ac uk
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	file manager problem whenever i start file manager the status bar is not displayed even though it is selected in the options menu if i deselect it then select it again the bar appears anyone have any ideas why this is happening thanks mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help disappearing groups in article r anlinn g skeena ucs ubc ca ewoo unixg ubc ca emile woo writes program manager but it seems that everytime i install something new that makes a new group it promptly disappears after i turn of windows did you check that a new grp file was actually created in your windows directory are you turning off your computer when windows is running rather than closing program manager ekkehard
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	list of favorite windows goodies is anyone maintaining a list of favorite shareware and public domain windows software i have several such lists for msdos but they are really light on windows stuff david arnstein international imaging systems arnstein iis sun com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hhy won t my dos apps run in a window can somebody help me out there i have just purchased win and i just can t get dos apps text mode apps to run in a window on their own i ve tried mucking around with the pif settings etc but to no avail what am i doing wrong i didn t get this problem under v thanks in advance jason
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it in article c qofw aa usenet ucs indiana edu ntaib silver ucs indiana edu iskandar taib writes in article bcf c a deneva sdd trw com reimert etdesg trw com scott p reimert writes somewhere in this thread it has been said that windows nt tm is a multi user os as well as multi threading etc i certainly haven t seen this to be the case there are seperate accounts for each person and even seperate directories if that is desired i don t see an implentation of simultaneuos use though since running any gui over a network is going to slow it down by a fair amount i expect windows nt will be multiuser only in the sense of sharing filesystems someone will likely write a telnetd for it so one could run character based apps but graphics based apps will have to be shared by running the executables on the local cpu this is how things are shaping up everywhere client server architectures are taking over from the old cpu terminal setups note that the next does this you can always telnet into a next and run character based apps but you can t run the gui yeah i know about x windows just haven t been too impressed by it iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs i read this in an electronic magazine about nt and for all the hoopla about nt one would think the thing would be multi user but it s not it supports only one user at a time it can support multiple clients but only one actual user your mileage may vary this posting does not represent the opinions of my employers i m afraid i ll have to ask you to leave the store mam ash aod
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more diamond ss x in article apr odetics com dale odetics com dale pischke writes in article apr samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card is only in windows i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup i had the exact same failure with the x and word for windows a quick call to microsoft indicated it was problem with the x drivers you need to call diamond and get the new drivers i think version fixes the above problem there may be later versions that i m unaware of version drivers are current steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc voice north lexington avenue fax arden hills mn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mewin latex help i posted this to the apps group and didn t get any response so i ll try here i am trying to use the latex help feature available in emacs for windows and read that you need a separate latexhlp zip file along with a vms hlp zip file to convert this to windows help has anyone found these files or gotten this command help to work thanks steve herrod
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should be just venting steam i had the same problem at first i thought it was the video driver and made sure i had the most current drivers because the problem was most evident at svga resolution modes it didn t help and after a bit of experimentation determined that the problem existed in standard vga resolution mode it was just much less noticeable my mouse was an older ms serial version i bought second hand in it worked just fine in dos and dos based graphic applications on the guess that the problem was with the resolution of the mouse i borrowed a new mouse a ms bus model and tried it that solved the problem so if your mouse is old you may want to try replacing it for a newer one sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications d hfac brigham young university provo ut hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu signoff russ lister rlister cti com or well connected systen uunet cti rlister comprehensive technologies int l inc arlington va
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	twain drivers for logitech scanman hi i was wondering if anyone knew whether or not logitech had windows twain drivers for the scanman if so are the drivers on the net somewhere my scanman is the model one down from the scanman thanks in advance ross barclay ross barclay rbarclay trentu ca peterborough ontario
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ms windows sound system text to speach hi all news group users does anyone know whether there is some software which will let one do text to speach like the sound blaster does hal adam hadam bcsc gov bc ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	simple windows question ok here s a nice easy question for all you out there when running dos under windows i lose the ability to do a print screen i have no problem with this when i m running dos not under windows if it s relavant i m using quarterdeck expanded memory manager for my please e mail any responses since i don t get to read the news too often thanks in advance jr eve albany edu jr albnyvms bitnet go heavy or go home
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winqvtnet with ndis on token ring in article apr datamark co nz thomas datamark co nz writes in article apr liris tew kuleuven ac be wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be wim van holder writes is it possible to use winqvt net on a machine that uses ndis to connect to a token ring i tried it with older versions but got an invalid packet class error or something the like how are you attempting to do that are you using the dis pkt program this provides a packet driver on top of the ndis driver i tried to do so but people told me that even if i used dispkt the packets would still be incompatible is this true thomas beagle thomas datamark co nz work o technical writer thomas cavebbs welly gen nz home wellington nz hound for hire will work for dog biscuits wim van holder katholieke universiteit leuven tel departement t e w fax dekenstraat b leuven e mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be belgium fdbaq cc kuleuven ac be
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	eps display software does any one know of any shareware freeware software which lets one display eps files on a pc with dos and or windows your reply would be much appreciated thanks hal adam hadam bcsc gov bc ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re out of environment space running bat files from windows i have a bat file that i run under a windows icon i have set up a pif file to run the bat file in exclusive mode and to use the entire screen the first line of the bat file sets an environment variable my problem is that on some of our machines running ms dos and windows in enhanced mode the set command in the bat file fails with the out of environment space error i have raised the amount of environment space to bytes using the shell command in config sys so i know that i am nowhere near to running out from the windows resource toolkit for win workgroups add an entry to your system ini file under the nonwindowsapp section commandenvsize nnnn this sets the command com env size where nnnn must either be or between and a value of disables the setting if this value is too small or too big it is rounded up to or down to if the value is less than the current size of the actual environment this setting is disabled as if it were if you specify the environment size in a pif file for command com the pif setting overrides this setting the default is with msdos versions earlier than otherwise the default value is the e option in the shell command in config sys to set this value you must edit your system ini and reboot i have used this entry as well as relied on the default e from the config sys shell line and both give larger environments if you don t use one of these then the environment passed by windows to each new dos box is just a little bit bigger than the environment variables present when windows was started no matter how big the dos env was when windows starts it truncates all unused space except for a few bytes this should allow your batch file to run but your mileage may vary jerome jerry schneider domain jls atg com aspen technology group uucp uunet csn atglab jls po box ft collins co voice
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows backgrounds help i m bored with the current windows backgrounds we have here and am looking for some nifty pictures to use instead i ve seen from previous posts that many sites exist that store pictures available through anonymous ftp except that i can t ftp to remote sites from my machine what i can do is use ftpmail mail a list of commands to a server and receive a mail of files and or data back does anyone know of sites with windows compatible pictures that can be accessed in such a way if you do would you please post them tia mark ps maybe this would make a useful faq mark whalley gec mrc co uk only in silence the word phone exn only in darkness light the views expressed here are mine only in dying life all mine and nothing whatsoever to bright the hawk s flight on the do with gec mrc empty sky ursula k le guin
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc in article c w j jll nyongwa cam org angcl nyongwa cam org claude angers writes in article c rx b kzp ecf toronto edu leebr ecf toronto edu lee brian writes in article qu ud hd sunb ocs mq edu au eugene mpce mq edu au writes in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc theoretically supposed to be reduced not any longer that s why everyone is arguing about risc v s cisc personally i think cisc will win out just take a look at the pentium not that i like intel architectures either but that s another story bye do you mean that the pentium is better than a risc or that it will outsell them all if the first you have to remember that intel cisc like the pentium are a always a generation away from the best riscs also riscs cpu are more costly because they are not sold in the same quantities not even on the same order but i remember reading about years maybe about a t from hypercube that did a mips was superscallar and reordered its instruction itself so i m not sure but i think the t was a mhz transputer so ya tie a gazillion of them together to get mips the newest is the t which kicks anyone s butt haven t seen them used much though anyway to respond i think the pentium cisc is better than the more advanced risc e g like the alpha etc the mhz pentium has approximately the same performance as the superduper mhz alpha here performance is the weird specint that everyone refers to this is what i heard the alpha still kicks in the p s butt in fp again this is what i heard and in the computing world if you sell lots of chips like intel and make it faster like intel you are the winner like intel even though you have a sucky architecture from over years ago like intel if you can make a cisc chip superscalar superduperpipelined superfast with the ideas behind the risc ideology you got a cisc chip and then i admit i can t see the advantages of risc over cisc if the latest technology is a generation behind then it sucks relatively speaking now i may sound like i like intel but i ll have to say that the p is some real kick butt pile of si and sio but i hope that motorola really catches up with the k line or i m gonna start crying brian brian hojo lee hey excuse me miss could i have a gif of you leebr ecf toronto edu leebr eecg toronto edu try linux the best and free un x clone
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files deleted a lot of stuff how do you convert this to a bit map you re supposed to delete everything above the cut here mark and below the lower cut here mark and uudecode it but i was not able to unexpected end of file encountered at the last line could you please re post it or tell be what i m doing wrong thanks i a mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	beta testers required for winsock version of windows trumpet contact me for details peter psychnet psychol utas edu au peter p tattam international phone programmer psychology department australia phone university of tasmania hobart tasmania australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet in article apr csd newshost stanford edu kayman csd d stanford edu robert kayman writes from kayman csd d stanford edu robert kayman subject canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet keywords printer date apr gmt hello fellow netters i am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer i should purchase the canon bj bubblejet vs the hp deskjet i thought rather than trust the salesperson i would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential and i figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson now i would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the dpi of the canon bubblejet vs the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which is faster is there a noticeable print quality difference particularly in graphics which will handle large documents better pages or more any personal experience on either will be appreciated here which works better under windows any driver problems etc cost of memory font packages toner cartridges etc basically your personal experiences with either of these machines is highly desirable both good and bad advance kudos and thanks for all your input e mail or news posting is readily acceptable but e mail is encouraged limits bandwidth sincerely robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu or cpa cs stanford edu in theory theory and practice are the same in practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision of the original revised revision revised all right not saying i know any more than the average salesguy i ll give your question a shot the key issue that i bought my bj on was ink drying speed you really have to try awful hard to get the bj ink to smear the hp deskjets need seconds to completely dry in both cases however do not get your pages wet unlike laser printers the material on your pages is ink not toner but that should go without saying my pc has very little memory only meg ram so the bj takes a little while to print but every application i use takes a while to run once the computer is solely printing it purs like a kitten and puts pages out every seconds depending on how detailed your graphics are the bj can do windows soft fonts i m assuming that the deskjet can or hp wouldn t sell many size is another factor the bj is much smaller but the hp is built like a tank i bet the bj would get damaged first finally the print quality i love the bj s resolution it looks like a good laser quality print the hp s i ve used they look like ink not as impressive so i chose the canon any other opinions
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	actix video card drivers for windows i am looking for the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card the driver i am currently using is version and doesn t support more than colors in x mode even you have mb memory the bbs support for actix is unbelievable they are still using bps modem it will take you hours to download the drivers it hurts when you are calling long distance is there any ftp site that has a collection of video drivers for windows btw anyone using this card and how do you like it so far thanks daniel y h wong uoft wongda picton eecg toronto edu electrical engineering
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re nt questions in article news yale edu adriene nazaretian qm yale edu adriene nazaretian writes in article mar samba oit unc edu tclark med unc edu thomas b clark says is the driver support as seamless as program support e g will my soundblaster scanner cd rom tape backup continue to work even if there are no specific nt drivers there is a hardware compatibility guide to answer these questions there are many drivers for cd rom and there are midi and other sound drivers installed i dont do a lot with sound digitizing on this platform but recall seeing items for their configuration in the control panel applet there is built in support for tape backup systems as well my problem i wasn t aware of the fact that i would need an scsi cd rom for windows nt when ordering the beta sdk package so my question is there any driver available that will allow me to use my mitsumi non scsi cd rom for installation if there is one from which place ftp site can i get it many thanks in advance stefan kuehnel stefan k uhnel kuehnel rvs uni hannover de kuehnel swl uni hannover de neu ab die oben wiedergegebene meinung ist meine private und nicht die des rrzn des lg rvs der uh oder einer anderen institution
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trident vga drivers in article c y r fgp cs mcgill ca bjcon cs mcgill ca brendan newman says hi i have a trident tvga video card and need the updated drivers for win where can i get them from an ftp site i have the same card tvga c when i checked the latest driver for windows is dated aug in garbo uwasa fi in win drivers video if you find a better version updated please let me know thanks azmi axh psuvm psu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with a windows drum machine hello i m trying to get a drum program to work that i downloaded from ftp cica indiana edu in the pub pc win sounds directory it s called drum zip i have an ati stereo fx card with the latest windows drivers installed when i try to run the drum program it reports that a midi device is not installed however the drivers utility in the control panel reports that it is installed anyone have any idea how to set up the midi device so that the drum program will work with my setup what i m trying to do is use my computer as a metronome someone suggested that i try one of the drum machines that are circulating around out there any help would be appreciated thanks terry terryh cae wisc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how redirect print manager to file hello who can tell me where can i find the pd or shareware which can capture windows s output of printer mananger i want to capture the output of hp laser jet iii though the postscript can setup to print to file but hp can t i try dos s redirect program but they can t work in windows thankx for any help internet address u cc nctu edu tw english name erik wang chinese name wang jyh shyang national chiao tung university taiwan r o c
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workgroup questions conven ram and licensing in article ny ra abh h eosvcr wimsey bc ca aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca writes i would be very appreciative if someone would answer a few questions about windows for workgroups i currently have novell netware lite which does not work with windows very well and is a conventional memory hog ver i am considering moving all our machines to w wg q how much conventional ram does w wg use over and above the driver for the network card i have just checked it and you have three files that are loaded protman bytes driver bytes workgrp bytes q if i have a novell ne card are the lsl and ipx drivers still needed no w wg uses it s own drivers q does w wg do a license check over the network to ensure each machine is running its own licenced copy of w wg note i do not want to break the license agreement and i will buy a copy of w wg for each of our machines it is just that i would like to try it out first to see if it meets our needs returning one opened copy is much easier than returning n opened copies not that i know of i bought two copies had some problems with one installed both from the same copie no problems do worry i just had a really old bios and that s the only problem i got q if you buy the upgrade to windows for w wg does it replace all of win as you install it or does it depend on current win files it will replace all older files i think and prompt you for the others q if i install windows nt on my server when it comes out will i have any troubles with the w wg machines this i do not know when i started this message i was going to ask only questions but i got carried away i ll stop now i look forward to your replies al hope this helps gel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re simple windows question in article apr sarah albany edu jr eve albany edu diamond writes when running dos under windows i lose the ability to do a print screen i have no problem with this when i m running dos not under windows open up the pif file with the pif editor click on the advanced button and then reserve the prtsc key for the application any keys that you select in this section will be passed along to the application rather than being processed by windows bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	overlapped window without a title bar hi i have a simple question is it possible to create a overlapped thickframe window without a title bar ie ws overlapped ws thickframe ws caption i don t seem to be able to get rid off the title bar i have another question i have a overlapped window say v which has few child windows a b c etc the window shows up with all it s children fine now i create another child t with a ws thickframe style and placed on top of one or more of it s siblings style ws thickframe is used so that i can resize it how do i make sure that the child t will always be at the top of it s siblings i used setwindowpos and bringwindowtotop without success what s happening is that while i am resizing t it shows up but as soon as i let go it goes behild it s siblings any help would be greatly appreciated manu please mail me at manu oas olivetti com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win comm drivers replacements question has anyone had any experience with a replacement comm driver for windows called turbocomm i read about it in pcmag apr and am interested but not willing to shell out the bucks the company wants just to try it out it supposedly eleminates the problems that occur during a high speed file transfer and a disk access made by another program running at the same time if anyone has any pro cons about this product i would be very inter ested to hear them please email at the address give below thanks matthew gibson gibsonm cs arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re file manager problem in a previous article mrw eng nxt cso uiuc edu michael r whitchurch says whenever i start file manager the status bar is not displayed even though it is selected in the options menu if i deselect it then select it again the bar appears anyone have any ideas why this is happening no not really it may be that your winfile ini has gotten corrupted for some unknown reason have you tried re creating it by either exiting filemanager with the save setting option on when the status bar is visible or double clicking on the control menu the one with minimize and maximize in in when everything looks proper if you have and it still doesn t work you may want to delete your winfile ini and try one of these two saving procedures again to totally recreate the file from scratch good luck mark waschkowski
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet thomas d fellrath nd edu nd edu wrote the key issue that i bought my bj on was ink drying speed you really have to try awful hard to get the bj ink to smear the hp deskjets need seconds to completely dry in both cases however do not get your pages wet unlike laser printers the material on your pages is ink not toner but that should go without saying i think the ink now used in the deskjet family is water fast
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trumpet for windows other news readers in article ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok aiyar writes in article apr liris tew kuleuven ac be wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be wim van holder writes what the status of trumpet for windows will it use the windows sockets i liked it in dos but had to abandon it since i started using ndis to access our token ring results in invalid class error while i do not speak for peter tattam i am fairly sure he is planning a winsock compliant version while this will definitely not make the initial public release of wintrumpet it will follow on shortly thereafter currently wintrumpet is in very late beta it looks like an excellent product with several features beyond the dos version wintrumpet supports the trumpet tcp novell lwp and there is also a direct to packet driver version that some people are using with the dis pkt shim ashok ashok is wintrumpet available anywhere via anonymous ftp james r garven dept of finance cba voice graduate school of business fax university of texas internet jgarven mcl cc utexas edu austin tx u s a bitnet garven utxvm bitnet education is hanging on until you ve caught on robert frost
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	changing system fonts i would like to change all of the system fonts in windows i have a program that will generate system fonts from truetype but i was wondering if there is a problem to help you set up all your system fonts also how do i change the icon text color all of my icon text is black and i want to change it couldn t find any options in control panel or in win ini brad cain brad bach udel edu brad bach udel edu brad cain n naf cain snow white ee udel edu university of delaware electrical engineering cain freezer cns udel edu blah blah blah alt blah
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re tidying up after removing an ole server in article c y kz liverpool ac uk qq liverpool ac uk chris wooff writes a while ago i installed spss for windows as part of an evaluation once the evaluation was complete i duly deleted the software from my pc unfortunately there is still a ghost of spss left when i run something like write and go to embed an object then spss chart appears on the list of objects i m offered i looked around all the obvious ini files without success the next thing i tried was looking for the string spss chart in every file in the windows directory it turned up in a file called req dat or reg dat unfortunately the file was binary and so i didn t feel inclined to edit it i d welcome a solution for removing spss from the list of ole servers i think you can do this with regedit which can make changes to the ole registration database from program manager or file manager choose run and type regedit you do have it its included with windows but not well documented tom paladin world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hhy won t my dos apps run in a window in article snz sigma demon co uk jason sigma demon co uk writes can somebody help me out there i have just purchased win and i just can t get dos apps text mode apps to run in a window on their own i ve tried mucking around with the pif settings etc but to no avail what am i doing wrong i didn t get this problem under v are you sure you re running in enhanced mode windows takes more memory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	approach for windows article crossposted from comp os ms windows apps author was dr richard timmer posted on apr gmt hello winnetters i have seen a great deal of discussion herein on the relative merits of ms access and borland paradox win however are there any users out there with experience with the database package called approach it has gotten a number of very good reviews from the various mags and it seems like it would require less hardware overhead than paradox i have ruled out access because some aspects of it are extremely non intuitive e g requiring a field to always have a value i like what i ve seen of paradox but it seems like the resource requirements are greater than what i have mhz mb ram so please provide me with your thoughts are approach good and bad thanks richard timmer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mouse on com under windows in a previous article jpaparel cs ulowell edu joseph paparella says i ve pursued and researched this question over the last month or so because i have the same requirements you do and the long and short of it is that the windows mouse drivers don t accept mice at any but com and com using irq or irq unless you buy special drivers from someone who has them i ve talked to mouse systems who say their driver doesn t support other than com and com as above but who claim to be releasing one that will soon the other alternative seems to be possible but in one case prohibitively expensive i e port card for and in the other the author s of powerbbs for windows claim to have a port serial card with buffered uarts and drivers for windows to match i e com irq for the second paragraph is hearsay because i haven t checked it out yet but intend to as soon as i can free up g hope this will save you some steps i had this problem when i first loaded windows my i o card is for hd s fd s parrelel serial for mouse and for my external modem and a game port problem enters the darn serial ports have no selection for com settings they are stuck on and good card for hd s and fd s but lousy for serial i called microsoft and other places the long and short of it is windows wants com and only for mouse selection i went out and bought a small i o card just for parrelel and serial now i have all active com ports and lpt and lpt this half card was less than mouse on com external modem on com i disabled the lpt so i could use the interupt for my scanner card irq c ya artin this communication is sent by artin university of arizona tucson ak cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king of kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	word byte i just moved from borland c to visual c today when i tried to compile my c program it complained a function prototype problem it turned out that the typedef word in ms c is a byte not unsigned int could anyone shine some light on this subject why a word is a byte ming t lin mlin ichips intel com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winnls dll i tried to install a foreign language windows application that required a file named winnls dll i checked all of my windows installation disks for this file but could not find it does anybody have any idea what this file is for and where one could get it from
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon buble jet printer hi can somebody tell me how much is canon bj and from where can i buy it for the cheapest price thanks in advance m o o
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	for sale harvard graphics for windows for sale brand new shrinkwrapped harvard graphics for windows list price cheapest pince in computer shopper mail order my price this is really a slick package but i won it in a bike race so i can t return it for credit my dilemma is your fire sale peter tapscott xerox palo alto research center internet tapscott adoc xerox com xns net tapscott parc xerox
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	x trident driver wanted is there a x trident driver for windows anywere this mode is supported by the drivers fo os but i have not been able to find it for windows x means wide and high as opposed to x any help is appreciated peter vestman dep of computing science university of umea sweden
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winqvt net v in article ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok aiyar writes in article lorien ocf llnl gov dave angmar llnl gov dave fuess writes an earlier article in this newsgroup made reference to winqvt net version realy where i tried archie with no luck it s probably just a typo not a typo it was uploaded to ftp cica indiana edu a couple days back but i sure would like to get one if it s real as i too have a printer problem in winqvt version uses standard windows printer drivers ashok it s still in the pub pc win uploads directory as qvtnet zip note new email address tom carter carter photon cem msu edu michigan state university carter msucem bitnet chemistry department
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re exit codes dos sorry for wrong group in article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes hey now first of all sorry to post this dos question in a windows group but i m in kinda a hurry so i can t scramble to find the dos groups names anyway anyone know where i ccan find the exit codes to dos commands there are alternatives you can try to write a small c program something like int my int var my int var system command and display my int var value which is the exit code of the command or use dos com instead of command com it has built in move command you can also get any program exist code by using the exec function of dos c echo exec command will display the exit code of the command get dos not worth buying if you already have qemm pctools norton and you only need the move utility the manual doesn t seem to have all of them i m particularly looking for copy in order to make a move batch file such that if the file wasn t coppied properly it won t be deleted please e mail louray seas gwu edu thanks i a mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd agus budy wuysang digitech student monash university clayton melbourne australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files in article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes deleted a lot of stuff how do you convert this to a bit map you re supposed to delete everything above the cut here mark and below the lower cut here mark and uudecode it but i was not able to unexpected end of file encountered at the last line could you please re post it or tell be what i m doing wrong sounds like the original poster of the bitmap uuencoded the file on a dos machine and you tried to uudecode it on a un x machine and your uudecode program balked at the carraige returns
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	program manager kills my group files any clue some times when i enter win progman says that i need to rebuild a group it s quite annoying
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to hold the control to a window object i m using bc s objectwindows version and trying to get some data processed in a window object however when the calling program invokes the window object it gives up the control to the window object and keeps executing the next statement i would like the calling program after invoking the window object to wait until the window object is closed can i do that my program may look like class mywindow public twindow void mycallingprog could the calling program be a c function mywindow mywinobj mywinobj new mywindow getapplication makewindow mywinobj mywinobj show sw shownormal next statement i want the program to wait here until mywinobj is closed so that i can get some data back from mywinobj i specified the window style to be ws popupwindow didn t help is there any other way to execute the window object so that the calling program won t give up the control any help would be appreciated thanks jun to talk to the lord with ps through ms windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re overlapped window without a title bar from article rc h ern olivea atc olivetti com by manu oas olivetti com manu das i have a overlapped window say v which has few child windows a b c etc the window shows up with all it s children fine now i create another child t with a ws thickframe style and placed on top of one or more of it s siblings style ws thickframe is used so that i can resize it how do i make sure that the child t will always be at the top of it s siblings i used setwindowpos and bringwindowtotop without success what s happening is that while i am resizing t it shows up but as soon as i let go it goes behild it s siblings the window is probobly on top but the lower windows are drawing over it try using ws clipsibling to keep the lower siblings from drawing on the top sibling s space ed ekalenda netcom com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need longer filenames in article d t infoserv com hfeldman infoserv com howard mitchell feldman writes in apr guinness idbsu edu lhighley gozer idbsu edu larry paul highley wrote is there a utility out there that will let me use filenames longer than the standard format yep it s called os
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm rnichols cbnewsg cb att com robert k nichols writes truetype font files are at least larger than their type equivalents if you are using a disk compressor though be aware that truetype fonts will compress whereas type fonts will not they are encrypted this isn t entirely true it is true that truetype fonts are larger than their atm counterparts but atm fonts do get minimal compression running stacker report generator i get file type compression ratio ttf truetype pfb atm pfm atm metric although the metric files are small they compress quite largely and as you can see even the regular pfb files have some compression so doing the math on one such comparitive font file ttf times bytes bytes compressed pfb times bytes bytes compressed you still win out even if the atm times font isn t compressed your mileage may vary depending on compression program when heroes go down they go down fast john m grohol m s so don t expect any time to center for psychological studies equivocate the past nova univ ft lauderdale fl suzanne vega grohol novavax nova edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re beta testers required for winsock version of windows trumpet in a previous article peter psychnet psychol utas edu au peter r tattam says contact me for details peter psychnet psychol utas edu au peter this is posted on behalf of peter tattam there is a north american mirror with the beta test version of wintrumpet for winsock please contact me or peter for details ashok ashok aiyar department of biochemistry cwru axa po cwru edu for internet access telnet ftp in cleveland contact info wariat org telnet to wariat wariat org and login as bbs dial v bis or bps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please refresh on internet access to compuserve hi sometime ago there are some discussions on gaining compuserve access thru the internet but i seem to misplace those articles can someone please refresh me where which site i can telnet to to gain access hopefully i can download files as well thanks arthur lim email arthur mailhost scs com sg
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	i hate to make a decision hi well i really hate to make a decision but recently i have to choose whether stacker or dos with double space for my poor hd i am using windwos and i hope what i choose will live with windows any help will be appreciated forever michael jordan tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu tw
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fast dos vga and x x windows video card info needed ok i have a dx isa w diamond stealth vram mb i was really satisfied w its performance in windows but now more and more games needs higher frame rates in dos vga especially this new strike commander this stealth vram can only give me fps i use dbench my winmark was million i think so right now i m considering to replace it w a new card which hopefully can perform approx same w my current vram in windows and also can perform dos vga preferably fps i also saw the dbench benchmark list from someone who compiled it in csipg and it looked that speedstar x and orchid prodesigner d s ware the fastest for non local bus motherboard both can give fps in dos vga w dx does anyone have a winmarks for both of those cards above with the processor type which one is the worthiest not necessarily fastest any other card recommendation is welcomed too also if possible where can i get this card for the cheapest thanks in advance folks martin
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re cica mirror try wuarchive wustl edu in the mirrors win directory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re i hate to make a decision in article apr gtonwu uz nthu edu tw gtonwu uz nthu edu tw tony g wu writes hi well i really hate to make a decision but recently i have to choose whether stacker or dos with double space for my poor hd i am using windwos and i hope what i choose will live with windows any help will be appreciated forever michael jordan tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu tw stacker achieves better compression ratio than dos yet the latter comes with virus detection memory manager and multiple booting each of them are not so good as the nav qemm or ndos in my opinion but with a package of only it s nice if haven t yet installed all of those stuffs both certainly work with win rensheng horng
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re bernoulli drives disks nilayp violet berkeley edu nilay patel writes i am looking for bernoulli removable tapes for the drive don t laugh i am serious if you have any mb tapes lying around that you would like to get rid of please mail me nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu you do mean disks don t you not tapes you forgot to say whether you were looking for the old or the newer sorry just use them at work and don t think they would appreciate it nathan c moore the johns hopkins university applied physics laboratory ncmoore aplcomm jhuapl edu cis please note above address for email replies
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files in article c yhr n i world std com paladin world std com thomas g schlatter says in article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes deleted a lot of stuff how do you convert this to a bit map you re supposed to delete everything above the cut here mark and below the lower cut here mark and uudecode it but i was not able to unexpected end of file encountered at the last line could you please re post it or tell be what i m doing wrong sounds like the original poster of the bitmap uuencoded the file on a dos machine and you tried to uudecode it on a un x machine and your uudecode program balked at the carraige returns well my newsreader shows the uue file as having lots of spaces which means it s broken before i even try to download it did anyone get it to uudecode successfully aengus rbyaml rohmhaas com aengus lawlor rbyaml rohvm bitnet who used to be alawlor dit ie how about some of that famous dublin wit barman certainly sir would that be dry or sparkling
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bigger window headings does anyone know of bigger raster fonts i m using a mag h monitor with a diamond ss x in x mode and would prefer to have larger characters for the windows heading practically for everything i m already using the character sets mark any idea of the difference between the h and the f
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	soundblaster v drivers for win hi all could someone please tell me if there are drivers for windows for the new soundblaster or will the drivers be sufficient i would be appreciate any info thanks greg ennis gke cs williams edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	question about localtalk appleshare on ms dos system is anyone out there running a ms dos system with a localtalk board i am on an appletalk network hooked up with a daystar digital lt mc localtalk interface board running on a ps model i m using the appleshare pc software for file server and network access it works fine under dos or the window or os dos box but when i try to load it before windows so that every application i run could get access to it the machine crashes hard as soon as i start up an application and of course things look pretty hopeless for os but who knows so does anyone have experience with this bizarre and obsolete setup duncan duncans phoenix princeton edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	vb to msaccess dde communications a couple of weeks ago i posted a question concerning communicating between vb and msaccess using dde the answers i received at that time allowed me to get a prototype of my project working however during this process i have come up with new problems there seems to be a limit of characters for a dde topic string is this inherent in all dde systems or just peculiar to msaccess or vb it is easy to query an access database from vb using the dde sql command provided the above limitation is overcome by using short field and table names but how is one meant to update a database a a dde sql update command does not seem to work b initiating an access macro using a dde execute command from vb cannot be used because when the macro requests information from vb using a second dde channel the programs dead lock until time outs occur the vb to access channel has to close before the access to vb channel is initiated i guess c access does not allow vb to dde poke the information the way i eventually managed to update a database was by sending key strokes from vb to access using the sendkeys command this technique has the problem that access cannot be minimised and it must always be in a state ready to respond to the sequence of key strokes vb sends are all the above statements correct or have i made incorrect assumptions are there any better work arounds to the above are there any signs of an odbc driver for access bob ran doc ic ac uk
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	video cards with bnc connectors hello i just recently bought a nec fg in order to get the highest possible quality and refresh rates i d like to know if there are any accelerator cards with bnc connectors as opposed to the usual d sub connector thanks for any information mike mills e mail sam ms uky edu rutgers uunet ukma sam uk math sciences dept mike ukpr uky edu work home
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help object appears thrice hey all i got an equation editor and since it didn t automagically appear in my object dialog box i e insert object equation i decided to manually place it there so i went into win ini is there another way to do this the embedding section and added equation equation equation path filename picture didn t work quit windows go back aha mistake correct it it looks fine start windows doesn t work play with it for a while at one point having two entries to see if one works and th other don t and finally i get it to work the only thing i can see that s different now is that it s now the first item on the list and it used to be the last but now i end up with three equation entried and all of them working and only one entry in win ini so does any netian know what s wrong or rather how to correct this i e make equation appear but once also all the entries in the embedding appear as above it s obvious that path filename is the executable or whatever and picture has something to do withthe way it appears picture description but what are the others i e in soundrec sound sound whate s the difference between the st sound and the nd and what is soundrec i don t think it s the name of the executable as other entries e g msworkschart aren t thanks i a mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	realizing colours win ini setting changes to y automatically mornin all i was wonderin i got screenpeace the screensaver which i think is very good and i got a problem with it there is an option there realize colour table and if it s switched on some wallpapers colours will get ucked up with some screensavers e g the flashlight one if i turn it off however it works well and it s faster so i have it off all s nice and well however if i turn it off then it will be on again next time i start windows all the setting are set in the win ini file and i do have save settings on exit selected also i tried manually changing the setting in the win ini file to n for no realize colour table and started windows it will be fine for that session but the next session will again turn the option on i tried adding a r read only attribute to my win ini file and it worked but my bitmap wallpaper saver didn t work then actually it s the same application anywya it didn t work since it must change the setting at the win ini file so anyone out there got any answers suggesions comments for me thanks i a mickey aka mp pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re program manager two questions in article apr vpnet chi il us lisbon vpnet chi il us gerry swetsky writes is it possible to change the icons in the program groups i d like to give them some individuality do you mean the icons of the program groups or the icons of the individual programs in the program groups i assume you mean the latter and the answer is sure you can just click once not double on the application icon then alt f p file properties click on the change icon box and tell it the icon filename or use the browse sub selection can you set up a short cut key to return to the program manager i know ctl esc esc will do it but i d rather set it up so i can avoid the task list and get back to the p m with alt f i use alt tab hold the alt key and repeatedly press tab until you see program mangler up then release the alt key stan brown oak road systems brown ncoast org english is my native language and i love it but don t try to tell me that it s easy to learn or that it makes sense if it were baseline would rhyme with vaseline
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winword spelling dictionaries for non us english word for windows lets me designate text as being in a language other than us english alt f l format language as i recall so i mark it for english uk but it still accepts rumor and squawks at rumour as far as i can see microsoft didn t include the english uk dictionary on my disks i don t mean to imply that i was singled out i assume that nobody in the u s got them i dialed the microsoft bbs but nothing in the word for windows section looked helpful can anyone tell me where or how to obtain the uk spelling dictionary for winword the file name would be spell uk lex or something similar email please i ll post a summary stan brown oak road systems brown ncoast org english is my native language and i love it but don t try to tell me that it s easy to learn or that it makes sense if it were baseline would rhyme with vaseline
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should be just venting steam i think i have the same problem i think it is caused by the rubber ball in the mouse which doesn t roll so smooth the detectors in the mouse notice this and whoops i hit a mine using minesweeper i think the solution will be buying a new mouse and or using a mouse pad wouter
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more diamond ss x from article apr samba oit unc edu by dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card is only in windows i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup i had a ati ultra but was getting genral protection fault errors in an spss application these card manufactures must have terrible quality control to let products on the market with so many bugs what a hassle running on gateway dx thx dave l you re using drivers version or earlier the latest is available from their bbs or by snailmail it at least fixes the wfw problem the reason i wanted to reply in public instead of private mail is because of following i talked to their tech support a few days ago and was told that i can expect a new version near the end of the month which should be about now however i have a problem when switching back from a dos session in standard mode apparently they don t know of this problem and seem to be surprised why anybody would want to use standard mode at all it s a great card for the price at least when i bought it now there may be better alternatives bo peng
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winword grammer checker saved my liff fire up microsoft word for windows version c type the following paragraph if you want to rite really very dead good you just cant live without one of the wonderfully write aids what you re can get what helps me impress me boss under tools options grammar select use grammar and style rules strictly all rules and click ok run the grammar checker this also does a spelling check no complaints readability passive sentences flesch reading ease flesch grade level flesch kincaid gunning fog index tl someone buy malcolm bacchus some beer please
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re visual c it is correct that vc is not considered an upgrade for c c is basically a dos product vc is a windows product as windows is not an upgrade for dos it is a separate operating system product line its utilities cannot be upgrades for dos utilities however i have also been told that it is not an upgrade for qcwin which it should be in article aa therose pdx com don hancock f n z fidonet org don hancock writes my understanding is that visual c is msc is it not what i mean is it is intended as a logical upgrade to msc which i own i am very interested in vc but i can t find anything about it tell me more how s the editor is it a true windows app msc which i love is not how are compile times exe sizes how smart is the linker how well does it do dos apps i would like to be one of the few programmers still pumping out stuff for the dos users out there even though i run win i like the multitasking and i couldn t afford desqview will it link rd party libs easily i use lots of rd party libs in my dos programs too lazy to do my own interfaces how is the debugger i make lots of mistakes thanx if it wasn t for c we would be using basi pasal and obol blue wave qwk v david a fuess dir center for eecs phone fax lawrence livermore national laboratory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with changing startup logo i know this is probably a faq but i installed the s w for my ati graphics card and it bashed my windows logo files when i start windows now it has the logo instead of the logo i thought the files that controlled this were windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo i restored these files but it didn t change the logo anyone know what the correct files are thanks farley access digex com charles u farley average iq of calgary board of ed employee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	protection fault hi i was wondering if anyone out there could help me i have an error message that goes what does it mean i am running ms windows thanks in advance
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse in article apr cti com rlister cti com russell lister writes ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should be just venting steam i had the same problem at first i thought it was the video driver and made sure i had the most current drivers because the problem was most evident at svga resolution modes it didn t help and after a bit of experimentation determined that the problem existed in standard vga resolution mode it was just much less noticeable my mouse was an older ms serial version i bought second hand in it worked just fine in dos and dos based graphic applications on the guess that the problem was with the resolution of the mouse i borrowed a new mouse a ms bus model and tried it that solved the problem so if your mouse is old you may want to try replacing it for a newer one another alternative is to clean the mouse you ve got sometimes the rollers inside the mouse pick up a ball of lint or other debris open the bottom of the mouse take out the ball and use some alcohol on a q tip to clean it out inspect the inside for any hairs or fuzz i have had my mouse get real jumpy and cleared up the problem with this procedure
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	z modem up and download with winqvt hello all i d like to know how z modem upload is initiated in a winqvt script file to check how it works before registering unfortunatly nothing about that feature is mentioned in the manual can anybody help me ciao chris
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re exit codes dos sorry for wrong group internal dos commands certainly and before do not set the exit code this is a royal pain if you want to do anything which checks for successful deletions etc the best suggestion is to use dos which does return you exit codes it also has move command simon simon rowe srowe fulcrum co uk fulcrum communications ltd birmingham condition brain overload raised at england
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	w wg novell i installed windows for workgroups on my network and i m having problems mapping drives in the file manager situation if i put lastdrive z in my config sys netx will run but i can t access drive f to log in to novell if i don t put lastdrive z in my config sys i can t access other w wg drives from the file manager it seems that there should be a way to make netx work with the lastdrive statement in my config sys i would appreciate any help it s probably an easy problem that all you windows guru s solved many many moons ago thanks tom bilan department of death by engineering surgeon general s warning michigan state university graduate school may cause brain bilan cps msu edu damage and sporadic loss of hair
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	drivers for stealth i recently purchased a diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where i can ftp the proper drivers the dstlth file at cica does not work with this video card please respond to doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows locks up with green lines down the screen hi i am using a dtk mhz meg memory to run a variety of programs and have had problems off and on with lock up but now i am trying to run an application that wants a lot of memory over a period of time playmation bit rendered and it is locking up everytime i have an ati ultra w meg which i have tried in each of the video modes i have excluded the region of video memory from a c segments from the use of emm have tried adjusting the swap partion from large to nonexistant to prevent swapping and i have rem d all tsr s and utilities in config syus and autoexec and even tried using the default program manager disabling my hp dashboard even with a minimal system no swap no smartdrv no tsr s no windows utilities and exclusion of video regions it still locks up completely no mouse control no response to anything except finger salute and even that does not stop by the standard windows screen but simply does a full reset immediately just about out of ideas anyone out there have any thanks tom branham branham binah cc brandeis edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re please refresh on internet access to compuserve cheong solomon technet sg scstech admin writes hi sometime ago there are some discussions on gaining compuserve access thru the internet but i seem to misplace those articles can someone please refresh me where which site i can telnet to to gain access hopefully i can download files as well this should be in the faq it only get asked about twenty times a month there is no that s right no telnet access to compuserve no ftp access no gopher access no internet services except e mail you can telnet to hermes merit edu but that routes you through sprintnet which is horrendously expensive tom gillman systems programmer aaaaagggghhhh wells computer center ga state univ any classic star trek security syshtg gsusgi gsu edu officer sometime during the show gsu doesn t care what i say on the internet why should you
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo in article farley access digex com charles u farley writes i installed the s w for my ati graphics card and it bashed my windows logo files when i start windows now it has the logo instead of the logo i thought the files that controlled this were windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo i restored these files but it didn t change the logo anyone know what the correct files are for a vga card these are the correct files but you can t just copy them back and expect it to work you have to create a new win com file try the command you will have to worry about what directories each file is in since i don t know your setup copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com i grabbed this from supercharging windows by judd robbins great book this is also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup screen an rle file is just a specially compressed bmp file hope this helps brad smalling jr ee ga tech atlanta ga gt c prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how redirect print manager to file u cc nctu edu tw by swh writes who can tell me which program pd or shareware can redirect windows s output of printer manager to file i want to capture hp laser jet iii s print output though postscript can setup print to file but hp can t i use dos s redirect program but they can t work in windows thankx for any help internet address u cc nctu edu tw english name erik wang chinese name wang jyh shyang national chiao tung university taiwan r o c try setting up another hpiii printer but when choosing what port to connect it to choose file instead of like lpt this will prompt you for a file name everytime you print with that hpiii on file printer good luck brian servis servis author ecn purdue edu it happened this way actual quotes from insurance claims what i say may not be what i think what i say may not be the pedestrian had no idea which what purdue thinks way to go so i ran him over
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re protection fault in thia mira sce carleton ca thia sce carleton ca yong thia writes hi i was wondering if anyone out there could help me i have an error message that goes what does it mean i am running ms windows ummm i think you left the message out i get these protection faults all the time on my machine at work a mhz with mb ram windows with dos at home on a mhz mb ram windows and dos i never get these any idea what could be wrong someone already suggested i check for tmp files in the windows temp directory there are none there the message i get is this application has violated system integrity due to an invalid general protection fault and will be terminated i only have this problem with applications running in dos boxes with or without pif files setup for them any hints help greatly appreciated please post since at least one other person is also having gpf problems thanks gordon gordon edwards n vph nothing unreal exists ncr engineering manufacturing gedwards ncratl atlantaga ncr com kiri kin tha s first law of metaphysics
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo in article rgtba gtn access digex net farley access digex com charles u farley writes i know this is probably a faq but i installed the s w for my ati graphics card and it bashed my windows logo files when i start windows now it has the logo instead of the logo i thought the files that controlled this were windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo i restored these files but it didn t change the logo anyone know what the correct files are thanks somewhere ftp cica indiana edu or simtel mirror there is a program called winlogo zip that does the trick it works great i believe the reason why you can t change the files you mentioned is that the logo is actually imbeded into the windows executable somebody please correct expand on this eric farley access digex com charles u farley average iq of calgary board of ed employee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ctrl alt del locks the computer fafter windows whenever i exit windows i can t use control alt del to reboot my computer because the system hangs when i do this i can still reboot using the reset key but i would like to know why this happens eric ebosco us oracle com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows nt und x windows i am not sure whether i am here in the right area but does anybody here know whether windows nt does will include a x windows server so that it can run x window applications remotely this is because we are considering at our university to use pc s for word processing and program development whereas the bigger jobs are to be run either on sun workstations or on fujitsu super computers thank you very much in advance hein eurom free multiline unix bbs home of the fsag frankfurt main germany data
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows nt help please help windows nt i need some information on the new windows nt anything you have would be appreciated i know nothing about it well except that it exists some questions memory requirements hard drive space release date is it out how is ibm reacting intel can it replace other lan os s anything else like specs speed etc thanks in advance luke email me at internet address domet ucbeh san uc edu bitnet address domet ucbeh
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	embedded truetype fonts ok i ve heard rumors about this i might have even seen it in a few places and i d like some info is it possible to embed fonts in a document like write word or ami pro so the file can be printed on another machine that doesn t have the font if possible how is it done i m sorry if this is a faq i couldn t find a faq list i would also apreciate knowing where that is if a windows faq exsists thanks in advance harry pierson come and be with me live my twisted dream the audio mercenary pro devoted pledge time for primal concrete sledge pierson usc edu pantera
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workaround for citizen drivers i have been experiencing several end user problems with various commercial software packages wordperfect win publish it win and printing landscape mode on a citizen pn the little guy or the citizen gsx in a nutshell the problem is that i lose the first inches of information from my left margin be it white space or truetype font output and margins are not preserved on subsequent pages past the first wordperfect had a workaround consisting of using the default location for the printers instead of tractor or manual they have also filed this as a bug and are continuing to investigate it ms write of course has no problem with these printer drivers proving that microsoft knows something the rest of us don t are you surprised i m not publish it win is still investigating this problem and while i was consider my options rejecting the one about buying an dtp package for surely they wouldn t have this problem right i stumbled onto a global workaround workaround go into the windows control panel select printers select your citizen printer driver select setup and select a custom size of x like magic all of your problems will go away ask me no questions and i ll tell you no lies mike disclaimer my opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer mike rovak drd com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows or dos or smartdrv or hello i thought this problem might have something to do with windows smartdrv and a vesa video card any ideas i recently purchased a dx machine and am having problems where the machine will suddenly freeze or reboot this may happen in windows or dos sometimes it is after printing a document sometimes after using the mouse and sometimes just when i am sitting there twice when it happened the machine rebooted and sounded seven beeps i looked in the documentation and the seven beep code meant a problem with interrupts the machine has the following configuration and files dx ami bios and floppies meg ide hard drive k cache microsoft compatible mouse on com citizen gsx on lpt ni supervga monitor with vesa windows accelerator card w meg two vesa slots windows dos config sys device c windows himem sys dos high devicehigh c dos setver exe files buffers stacks autoexec bat echo off lh c windows smartdrv exe prompt p g path c dos c windows c mouse lh c mouse mouse set temp c dos lh c dos doskey when the machine freezes i can t use the mouse or keyboard or use ctrl alt del to reboot if any one can give me any help i would greatly appreciate it if anyone can help configure this machine for the best efficiency memory wise i would appreciate that also douglas b dodson internet dbd icf hrb com hrb systems inc state college pa usa disclaimer any ideas or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the ideas or opinions of hrb
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re please refresh on internet access to compuserve cheong solomon technet sg scstech admin writes hi sometime ago there are some discussions on gaining compuserve access thru the internet but i seem to misplace those articles can someone please refresh me where which site i can telnet to to gain access try telnet login to cserve this will get you into the compuserve network enter hostname cis and you ll get the userid prompt hopefully i can download files as well i haven t if you can figure it out let me know also let me know if your backspace key works thanks arthur lim email arthur mailhost scs com sg craig lewis saic craig monster apd saic com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workaround for citizen drivers in article apr drd com mike drd com mike rovak writes i have been experiencing several end user problems with various commercial software packages wordperfect win publish it win and printing landscape mode on a citizen pn the little guy or the citizen gsx in a nutshell the problem is that i lose the first inches of information from my left margin be it white space or truetype font output and margins are not preserved on subsequent pages past the first wordperfect had a workaround consisting of using the default location for the printers instead of tractor or manual they have also filed this as a bug and are continuing to investigate it ms write of course has no problem with these printer drivers proving that microsoft knows something the rest of us don t are you surprised i m not publish it win is still investigating this problem and while i was consider my options rejecting the one about buying an dtp package for surely they wouldn t have this problem right i stumbled onto a global workaround workaround go into the windows control panel select printers select your citizen printer driver select setup and select a custom size of x like magic all of your problems will go away ask me no questions and i ll tell you no lies mike excuse me that s x mike disclaimer my opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer mike rovak drd com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workaround for citizen drivers for windows i have had the best luck using the epson lq drivers with my citizen gxs be sure to download the updated version from microsoft that allows margin settings gene toye senior software engineer gtoye pssparc oc com openconnect systems lbj freeway dallas tx disclaimer my employer had no idea i was going to say that
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for the latest actix drivers for windows hi anyone have the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card plus the one i have version seem to have a lot of problems i believe the latest version is and would someone please upload it to some ftp site so that i can download it thanks daniel y h wong uoft wongda picton eecg toronto edu electrical engineering
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workspace managers for win a small review jamie scuglia jamie zikzak apana org au wrote thanks to all those people who recommended workspace managers for windows i found shareware workspace managers from australia s ms windows archive monu cc monash edu au which mirrors some sites in the u s the three i found were workspaces wspace zip review deleted workshift wrksft zip review deleted bigdesk and backmenu backdesk zip review deleted i really appreciate this information however given that i don t have direct internet access which means i don t have archie access i must resort to using ftpmail this means that i need the site name and the directory where these workspace managers are located so can you or anyone else post or email me the needed information thanks very much chris chris huey tactix reengineering inc cah tactix rain com voice codecrafters custom crafted software in about an hour
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re visual c in article rgr v ga lll winken llnl gov david a fuess writes it is correct that vc is not considered an upgrade for c c is basically a dos product vc is a windows product as windows is not an upgrade for dos it is a separate operating system product line its utilities cannot be upgrades for dos utilities however i have also been told that it is not an upgrade for qcwin which it should be you can upgrade msc and qcwin to the visual c products as follows standard edition list price upgrade from qcwin competitive upgrade professional edition list price upgrade from msc competitive upgrade includes upgrades from other ms language products like qcwin michael goo hewlett packard i never try to cover my ass information networks division but i certainly support your right to do so homestead road ms lt cupertino ca goo hpinddh cup hp com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse in article c zs pr cs vu nl wlieftin cs vu nl liefting w writes ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should be just venting steam i think i have the same problem i think it is caused by the rubber ball in the mouse which doesn t roll so smooth the detectors in the mouse notice this and whoops i hit a mine using minesweeper i think the solution will be buying a new mouse and or using a mouse pad wouter and or taking the rubber ball out of the mouse should be directions in the manual or on the bottom of the mouse and cleaning it with alcohol isopropyl i believe the same alcohol as used for cleaning your cassette deck this is good to do every so often even if you have a mouse pad dust still gets caught in the mouse and on the rubber ball as well lint and other garbage may find it s way onto the rubber ball and get into the mouse damaging the horizontal and vertical sensors hope this helps good luck sincerely robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu or cpa cs stanford edu in theory theory and practice are the same in practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision of the original revised revision revised
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re bernoulli drives disks in article c onk f a netnews jhuapl edu ncmoore netnews jhuapl edu nathan moore writes nilayp violet berkeley edu nilay patel writes i am looking for bernoulli removable tapes for the drive don t laugh i am serious if you have any mb tapes lying around that you would like to get rid of please mail me nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu you do mean disks don t you not tapes you forgot to say whether you were looking for the old or the newer well i need the old disks you are right disks is a better word but they are so big and calling them disks is kind of funny but the appropriate word is disks nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for tom haapanen i m trying to find tom haapanen formerly tom wes on ca who was the keeper of the faq for this newsgroup he was working at watrerloo engineering software but netfind can t even find that but it may have been a uucp connection if anyone knows how to contact tom please let me know thanks tom schlatter paladin world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re w wg novell in article rh mi ea msuinfo cl msu edu bilan cps msu edu thomas j bilan writes if i put lastdrive z in my config sys netx will run but i can t access drive f to log in to novell if i don t put lastdrive z in my config sys i can t access other w wg drives from the file manager it seems that there should be a way to make netx work with the lastdrive statement in my config sys first off i haven t used w wg but i think that s about to change the problem is the lastdrive command and the way netware in general and in this case netx in particular adds drives to the device chain setting lastdrive z means there are no unassigned as opposed to unused drive letters for netware to use as it tacks its drive mappings onto the end of the existing list of drives w wg obviously attaches its network drives to existing unused drive letters i d guess the next thing i d try is something like lastdrive m which on most machines will leave a fair swathe of drives for w wg and still allow up to netware drive mappings as well nick fitzgerald pc applications consultant csc uni of canterbury n z n fitzgerald csc canterbury ac nz tel fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re fast dos vga and x x windows video card info needed in article apr doug cae wisc edu leo cae wisc edu leo lim writes ok i have a dx isa w diamond stealth vram mb i was really satisfied w its performance in windows but now more and more games needs higher frame rates in dos vga especially this new strike commander this stealth vram can only give me fps i use dbench my winmark was million i think so right now i m considering to replace it w a new card which hopefully can perform approx same w my current vram in windows and also can perform dos vga preferably fps i am ordering the actix graphicsengine ultra plus it is the same price as the stealth card plus it is also based on s chip the newest and fastest chip from s everyone if you are looking for a card see the april issue of pc magazine for their review they noted this person s problem with dos the stealth card is not a very good dos performer the actix card is rated the best in this chip class non local bus it got glowing reports from the magazine was a best buy and i called them directly and they just updated their windows drivers last week they have a bulletin board to get the latest drivers though somone posted that this bbs was at at any rate the actix graphics engine ultra outperforms all the other cards in the class based on the winmark results if you are looking for the all around best dos windows performance check out the actix card their number is p s the article in pc magazine noted that if you are a regular dos user ie games then you should also check out the chip from s it apparently scores just as well and in many cases slightly better in dos than the chip ie stealth and actix cards they have comparable windows performance and are cheaper to buy eric
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re program manager two questions actually with several sharware utilities you cn change both my fav is plug in bryan dunne
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet thomas d fellrath nd edu nd edu wrote the key issue that i bought my bj on was ink drying speed i was at the trenton computer fest and there were many sources of ink refills for the hp and canon so if you don t like the ink you re using you have a choice there is a frequently asked question faq list that s reposted occasionally that reports how to refill the cartridges yourself with inks that are available from the stationery store instead of a specialty ink with the specialty price i m not sure but i think i found another legal source of cheap hypos for injecting ink into the cartridges more on that when my mail order succeeds jeffrey jonas jeffj panix com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	monoumb does anyone know where the program monoumb is available i have checked my windows system disks and monoumb is there but not the other one thanks stan kucera skucera prstorm bison mb ca stan kucera
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re visual c to clarify vc is considered an upgrade for c there will be no product called c although the command line compiler of vc lists its version as c is not a dos only product it is a c c compiler capable of producing executables for dos or windows as is vc pro ed the significant difference is that vc comes with many windows hosted tools ide etc which assist developers in creating windows executables much more quickly basically by automating the thousands of lines of boilerplate code initial impressions have been very favorable everyone who is a registered user of c should have received a considerable amount of info regarding the specifics of c if you haven t call microsoft and i m sure they d be happy to send you some jefrem iwaniw pelican software corporation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	off line mail i am looking for a program called vbreader it is an off line mail reader for windows using qwk mail packets or if anyone knows of any good qwk mail readers please let me know thanks kevin kevin c donoghue internet donoghue donoghue win net donoghue international few love to hear the sins they love to act grand ave suite william shakespear ventura ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wordbasic sdk request for information i have been reading about an organisation called winword developer s relations group i believe they have produced publications called winword software development kit or wordbasic sdk and the proceedings of the windows developers tools conference wordbasic sessions assembled by steve wexler would you be able to help me with a contact name and address for this organisation or these publications thank you adrian pitt systems administrator dsto corporate information systems unit melbourne lorimer street fishermens bend vic australia phone fax email pitt cis dsto gov au
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	viewsonic experience sought i d appreciate if you can email or post you positive or negative experience with this monitor especially compared to to nanao i i d summarize if i got multiple responses thanks kin kin cho kin isi com voice ext integrated systems inc fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re bernoulli drives disks in article rhm j cg agate berkeley edu nilayp violet berkeley edu nilay patel rc writes in article c onk f a netnews jhuapl edu ncmoore netnews jhuapl edu nathan moore writes nilayp violet berkeley edu nilay patel writes i am looking for bernoulli removable tapes for the drive don t laugh i am serious if you have any mb tapes lying around that you would like to get rid of please mail me nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu you do mean disks don t you not tapes you forgot to say whether you were looking for the old or the newer well i need the old disks you are right disks is a better word but they are so big and calling them disks is kind of funny but the appropriate word is disks gee i remember the old floppy disks we used on an s cp m system back in high school not to mention those old multi platter disk packs that held about mb that went in the big washing machine drives at the local college i took some programming classes at and this was even in the early s tom paladin world std com a disk is a disk no matter how great or how small paraphrasing gulliver s travels
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	col mail messages in ms windows editors i have a modest system of aliases macros that enables me to download mail from a public access unix system to my ms dos box i read and reply to the mail with a ms windows based editor everything works peachey keen as long as the author of the message has maintained his text at col max width sometimes i get slightly wider messages that run off screen so i have to use the cursor slider to read the whole thing i m using ndw deskedit mainly but i ve experienced the same prob with all other ms windows editors i ve fiddled with word wrap settings in the various editors but to no avail i know i m missing something very basic in editor setup but what is it oh yeah ms word for windows converts everything flawlessly but for what i m looking for that s like using a tank to crack walnuts i d really like to have an editor setup that would display all incoming ascii files in a readable format to my screen thanks in advance erich w lantz ama ewl world std com distributor of deflagration virago well yer dead now so shut up m p
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet in article c eki kvp vcd hp com edmoore vcd hp com ed moore writes thomas d fellrath nd edu nd edu wrote the key issue that i bought my bj on was ink drying speed you really have to try awful hard to get the bj ink to smear the hp deskjets need seconds to completely dry in both cases however do not get your pages wet unlike laser printers the material on your pages is ink not toner but that should go without saying i think the ink now used in the deskjet family is water fast i ve had pictures ruined by a few drops of rain these were colour pictures from a deskjet c mind you it could have been acid rain i use a bj ex ink dries fast but it really doesn t like getting wet justin whitton at ma jjw hermes uk mod relay where no man has gone before after august mail ma jjw brunel ac uk disclaimer my opinions count for nothing except when the office is empty i m a student intelligence
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ami pro and pctools compress doesn t like being moved has anyone had problems with ami pro after running pctools v compress i have not corrupted data due to having caches other than pc cache running so that is not it the first time i try to run ami pro after loading windows it loads but causes i think it was a segmentation fault in amipro exe right before it finishes with all times after that only managing to get to the logo box that first pops up when it begins loading and then causes a general protection fault in module amiproui dll at i have not been able to fix this problem except by reinstalling ami pro this has happened twice with both times being after having ran compress on my hard drive btw i am not running stacker or any other disk compression programs and if you don t already know pctools compress is actually a defragger despite it s name my system is a mhz with mb of ram and a nec oem hard drive etc but that shouldn t make a difference please email me as i can t keep up with the newsgroup and it will cut down on net traffic anyways thanks derek dpiaseck jarthur claremont edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re w wg novell in article apr csc canterbury ac nz cctr csc canterbury ac nz nick fitzgerald pc software consultant csc uoc nz writes in article rh mi ea msuinfo cl msu edu bilan cps msu edu thomas j bilan writes if i put lastdrive z in my config sys netx will run but i can t access drive f to log in to novell if i don t put lastdrive z in my config sys i can t access other w wg drives from the file manager it seems that there should be a way to make netx work with the lastdrive statement in my config sys first off i haven t used w wg but i think that s about to change the problem is the lastdrive command and the way netware in general and in this case netx in particular adds drives to the device chain setting lastdrive z means there are no unassigned as opposed to unused drive letters for netware to use as it tacks its drive mappings onto the end of the existing list of drives w wg obviously attaches its network drives to existing unused drive letters i d guess the next thing i d try is something like lastdrive m which on most machines will leave a fair swathe of drives for w wg and still allow up to netware drive mappings as well w wg requires dos drives i use lastdrive j which makes my first novell drive k and leaves me drives g h i and j for w wg my local dos drives use a f ron
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos eid b i have a mb hard drive what should i set the compression ratio at using dos s double disk do i have to format erase everything to double the full mb to can i just make a mirror of my hard drive thanx the help darren lavallee wm v origin csrn files lines internet usenet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet justin whitton ma jjw isis ajax rsre mod uk wrote in article c eki kvp vcd hp com edmoore vcd hp com ed moore writes thomas d fellrath nd edu nd edu wrote i think the ink now used in the deskjet family is water fast i ve had pictures ruined by a few drops of rain these were colour pictures from a deskjet c mind you it could have been acid rain the black ink is waterfast but the color isn t i use a bj ex ink dries fast but it really doesn t like getting wet justin whitton at ma jjw hermes uk mod relay where no man has gone before after august mail ma jjw brunel ac uk disclaimer my opinions count for nothing except when the office is empty i m a student intelligence bob taylor hp vancouver
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	reboot when i start windows recently the following problem has arrisen the first time i turn on my computer when windows starts from my autoexec after the win title screen the computer reboots on its own usually the second time after reboot or from the dos prompt everything works fine s far as i remember i have not changed my config sys or autoxec bat or win ini i can t remember whether this problem occured before i optimized defragmented my disk and created a larger swap file thank you mathcad system sx mb stacker win dos carlos g niederstrasser only two things are infinite princeton planetary society the universe and human stupidity and i m not sure about the former einstein carlosn phoenix princeton edu space phoenix princeton edu ad astra per ardua nostra
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	summary borland microsoft database c libraries well i m amazed at how successful this exercise was i received responses and requests for summary thanks to everyone who made it possible on my own i was able to find out about codebase accsys and q e codebase and accsys are c libraries without sql q e is a windows application that can be communicated through windows dde calls where you send a sql string and receive the results most people wrote to tell me about the paradox engine from borland other products mentioned were microsoft s odbc accsys quadbase codebase rbase and q e only odbc quadbase rbase and q e have sql for myself i decided on codebase mostly because it has an ansi c portability version that runs under dos unix etc and includes the source code and portability is important in my application it works with dbase foxpro or clipper files however i feel that microsoft s odbc looks very promising it s mostly a formalisation of building and submitting sql queries and formatting query results as the responses say it s available via ftp except it s effectively unusuable without two manuals the odbc programmer s reference and the odbc sdk guide moreover odbc doesn t actually interpret sql and liase with databases that s up to drivers that should be provided by database manufacturers also it s windows only it s actually an extension to the windows sdk nevertheless it s a start at a sql interface standard and should make life interesting in the future here s my original post followed by the responses separated by a line of asterisks does anyone know if borland or microsoft have libraries for accessing their respective databases paradox foxpro from within c programs i d really like to be able to build a sql query string and pass it to a function which returns the query results in some format failing that any other access would still be better than nothing i d also like to hear of third party libraries for doing the same thing if other people are interested i ll prepare a summary of what i m told and post it thanks to all borland has a product called paradox engine that does just what you want the current version is which is fully compatible with ack paradox why the versions are different i don t know pd engine was compatible with pdox and it consists of a rather broad library of functions for accesing database files from both pascal i think turbo pascal and up and c i think either microsoft or borland now reading the box it s borland paradox engine database frameworks works with any borland c c mocrosoft c or later turbo c for windows turbo pascal or later tp for windows or later for framework applications bc or later or ms c c it does have support for object useage i haven t had a real chance to really use it myself but it looks fairly complete i m planning to use it this summer rick rick osterberg osterber husc harvard edu harvard yard mail center cambridge ma usa borland has a product which is called paradox engine i do not know about ms the paradox engine i know very well and it definitiely not a replacement for sql but it will enable you to save and restore records has locking et al supposedly the paradox for windows was impemented on top of it charles parker phone technical support centerline software inc fax cparker centerline com cyberspace momma don t let yer children grow up to be cowboys i know borland has a library of routines for accessing paradox from within a c program they recently came out with version this works with both borland and microsoft s c compiler shailesh bhobe att psp smb ms has put their odbc sdk into the public domain it s big i believe mb but worth downloading over a fast link look at ftp uu net in vendor microsoft odbc sdk also some companies are starting to provide sql engines i just got one for rbase not exactly cheap at but it allows programs in c or vbasic under dos or windows to talk to data bases using sql functions in your code hth walter knopf fermilab knopf fnal fnal gov check out the odbc toolikt from microsoft it is available on ftp uu net vendor microsoft odbc sdk this is the way that we ve chosen to access databases from all of our apps mj ppppp sssssiiiiii specialists in ms windows and windows nt development pp ppss ii call for information about our ooa ood tool ooaid ppppp ssss ii michaeljon miller mikem apertus com pp ss ii proficient solutions inc pp sssss iiiiii holmes ave so minneapolis mn borland sells the paradox engine which is a c language interface to paradox dbase btrieve ans asci files they also sell database frameworks which includes the engine plus a collection with source of c classes for using the engine earl roethke eroethke ems cdc com i actualy have paradox engine it is a library of functions large model for accessing the paradox s databases it seems to be working fine but i never did try it thouroughly it costs hope it will help you from david lefebvre david hp speedware com borland provides a database lib called paradox engine which can access and use the database files aswell as many other things gary bell nellads cc monash edu au gary bell department of robotics and digital technology faculty of computing caulfield campus monash university australia paradox engine is the library for paradox artur babecki artur ii uj edu pl borland sells the paradox engine which has all the paradox calls in it its hardly sql though you can do searches on key fields and on indivual fields but no comparison operators like so its pretty painful in my opinion do do anything besides simple retrieval and inserts updates i m currently using it i have an eval copy and i ve linked it in to some entry screens i ve written the engine library adds about k to the size of the program but you can load it as an overlay using borland s vroom manager now borland claims that later versions of the engine will have sql support but they don t really expect it till late in the year or even next year they are trying to get thrid parties to help out if you have any other questions let me know mike kamlet mike vpnet chi il us yes borland sells their paradox engine separately it has c c and pascal interfaces although the underlying interface is in c well at least for version of the engine which i have costed at egghead they now have version of the engine and a separate c class package for it michael d kersenbrock adc kentrox portland oregon michaelk kentrox com uunet kentrox michaelk i ve used accsys for paradox new version is almost ready for paradox to access paradox files from c its pretty good not sql though have heard of borland paradox engine or some such which is supposed to do likewise but not sure of what it is exactly hope this helps good luck chris from fernand slinky cs nyu edu christopher fernandes borland sells their paradox engine it s a library of functions for accessing paradox db files it comes with libraries for ms c bcc turbo pascal v and i believe it comes with turbo pascal win libraries as well the c libraries come in both dos and windows flavors the win stuff being dll s when i got it it also came with crystal reports which is a graphical report generator it allows you to create a generic form and use it within a compiled program using pdox engine i don t know if they still offer it or what the current price is i paid something like for an upgrade from the earlier version though hope this helps david taylor the commander it is easier to change the internet gt c prism gatech edu specification to fit the program also dtaylor cfd gatech edu than vice versa and root cfd gatech edu author unknown but very wise if you want to do sql from within your programs check out quadbase i don t have their address oops yes i do quadbase systems inc lucerne dr sunnyvale ca usa phone voice fax ask for the sql win demo disk it looked good to me i have a background in embedded sql in ingres this looked real similar it s a little expensive but if you order the demo and then just wait they will probably send you a special offer that ll probably run about us good luck best tom delosh from delosh emunix emich edu tom delosh borland has the paradox engine library it has libraries for both c and pascal to access paradox files under dos windows but for paradox i believe you d have buy have the sql link since pdox itself isn t sql compliant i ve used the engine for over a year now and have been pretty satisfied with it under dos it s a real pig it tacks on about k to the size of your programs tim ma associate programmer university of utah email tim src cppa utah edu i don t know about microsoft but borland sells the paradox engine for c c pascal in one package and if you want dbase compatible files there is a library called codebase from sequiter software that works with c c from davidr rincon ema rockwell com david j ray we re using q e database libraries to do what you describe it s a set of dll s accessed through a common api to talk to most of the major database formats we re using it to build an application that queries several databases using sql queries all access using q e is done using sql the package is available through microway in melbourne i believe it is produced by pioneer systems in the us we have no association with microway or pioneer systems other than being satisfied customers feel free to mail me for further information chris programming for nsw national parks and wildlife service chris hutchinson box u research programmer university of new england chris sulaw law su oz au armidale nsw paradox engine provides a complete set of c libraries for accessing paradox tables however it seems that it supports only borland turbo c and microsoft c when i tried to compile the engine s sample applications with the waterloo watcom c c bit compiler it complains that the library file llibce lib is missing even though i am quite certain that the file is not part of watcom c or the engine anybody have any success with other c compilers ron k ng hydro on ca i m currently developing an app with borland s paradox engine for c it also comes in pascal which has recently gone to version i e px engine is compatible with paradox and downward compat w there are indeed c libs for fox access but i can t think of the names offhand i m sure someone has already written you in that regard i think i just saw an add for a fox lib in the c users journal which is a good place to look for this type of package in general by the way i ve been paying my dues to learn a lot of the quirks of px eng over the past year wouldn t recommend it for a complex multiuser app but i m staying with it for now it s like a bad marriage i ve got too much time invested in learning and work arounds but if your interest is limited to a simple single user interface you want to build your own sql engine i take it px engine will do the job easily it doesn t sound like you ll be bumping into any of the gotchas if you do write me i may be able to point you in the right direction from raymond cruzio santa cruz ca us raymond borland has a paradox engine and database framework which gives you a c and assembler api to paradox databases this is part of boca borland s object component architecture they have technical briefs on boca pdoxeng and other products of theirs from jdm jumbo read tasc com james d mcnamara james d mcnamara tasc walkers brook drive reading ma x john bongiovanni systems analyst orbital engine company perth australia oecjtb oec orbital dialix oz au bongo alumni caltech edu opinions expressed are my own and not those of my organisation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re telephone of cirrus logic in article c m s m news hawaii edu chen galileo ifa hawaii edu hua chen writes is there anybody who knows the telephone number of cirrus logic co maker of a graphic card please reply to chen cfa harvard edu thank you very much hua chen center for astrophysics bbs number ron
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re program manager two questions in apr vpnet chi il us lisbon vpnet chi il us gerry swetsky writes can you set up a short cut key to return to the program manager i know ctl esc esc will do it but i d rather set it up so i can avoid the task list and get back to the p m with alt f you might try the recorder and make a micro i done that to do certain operations in a windows app that didn t have the ability to use a micro it should be in the accessories window the only problem is that it has to be runing for it to work but good luck warren e fridy iii st street north st petersburg fl internet wefiii axion palan palantir com uucp palan deep axion wefiii
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re drivers for stealth doug ward writes i recently purchased a diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where i can ftp the proper drivers the dstlth file at cica does not work with this video card please respond to doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward if you want to get them and get them now also the most up to date use the bbs at they may take an hour to download so do it when rates are low yeah i know it costs but locking up your system gets old quick maybe someone has them on the net i ve got the stealth drivers david
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse jumpiness solved can t guarantee that it ll work for everyone but i finally fixed my mouse jumpiness problems i installed a bus mouse sorry i didn t say the solution was free in the past i d tried everything with my microsoft serial mouse cleaning it unloading all kinds of tsrs turning off smartdrv write cacheing changing com ports nothing worked yesterday i finally broke down and bought a mouse systems bus mouse the improvement is even better than i had imagined so much so that my old mouse must have been jumpy all the time i just thought it was jumpy sometimes and i had gotten so used to it i didn t notice my wife who uses the computer about once a month noticed the improvement literally within a second i can t say anything about other bus mice but with the mouse systems one you ll have to give up either com or lpt to an irq also if you don t know mouse systems mice have three buttons the driver includes a utility that lets you assign keystrokes to the middle button hope this helps someone else if you re anywhere near as frustrated as i was it s well worth the stephen thomas at t tridom email sat eng tridom com attmail tridom sat
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	is kermit available for windows hello all i was wondering is the kermit package the actual package not a different program with kermit file transfers available for microsoft windows any information would be greatly appreciated please e mail or post thanks in advance unabashed shabba ranks fan steve frampton frampton vicuna ocunix on ca steve frampton i collect postcards if you send me one from a princess st your area i ll send one in return send to kingston ontario don t forget both email and mailing address canada k l c
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re summary borland microsoft database c libraries could you post a description of objectbase your chosen product thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win nt file systems ok will some one out there tell me why how dos can read i havn t tried writing in case it breaks something the win nt ntfs file system i thought ntfs was supposed to be better than the fat system keith
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mail order sales billing receivables program surely some one of you is familiar with what a mail order company goes through this company has only a few products but thousands of clients i need a sales billing and receivables program to handle the thing but i need to be able to customize it myself own the source etc anyone willing to sell me the basic stuff in any development language i ll be willing to pay about to it has to be ready now i need this sort of solution immediately with more time i ll just develop one myself if you can have me a prototype in two weeks you can make some quick cash dixon berry i see the light cfdeb ux cts eiu edu at the end of the tunnel now eastern illinois university thanks bill clinton booth library someone please tell me computer resource center it s not a train cracker
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ami pro and pctools compress doesn t like being moved sorry about that don t want to alarm anyone i don t think there is any correlation between the crashes and pctools i reinstalled ami pro and ran compress again with no problems i think problems may have been related to filling my disk until it had bytes left while ftping although i would think it wouldn t matter since ami pro wasn t running at the time and i made space available immediately anyways but whatever the cause it is working now derek
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workspace managers for win a small review cah tactix rain com chris huey writes jamie scuglia jamie zikzak apana org au wrote thanks to all those people who recommended workspace managers for windows i found shareware workspace managers from australia s ms windows archive monu cc monash edu au which mirrors some sites in the u s the three i found were workspaces wspace zip review deleted workshift wrksft zip review deleted bigdesk and backmenu backdesk zip review deleted i really appreciate this information however given that i don t have direct internet access which means i don t have archie access i must resort to using ftpmail this means that i need the site name and the directory where these workspace managers are located backdesk zip is on cica but i m not sure of the whole directory another to throw into the running is topdesk it is alsow on cica but i m not sure where it is more complicated then backdesk but i ve found it to be more stable and more usefull i recomend it to people who have already used a virtual desktop oh yeh it s free copyright microsoft and sanford staab carl zmola cicero spc uchicago edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos w wg problem i am running windows windows for work groups and just loaded dos what s happening appears as a graphics problem with file manager i ve added some menubar buttons but there appears to be a gray boxed region that covers the top rds of the button row these buttons are in a row below the pulldown menus the pulldown menus look fine and the disk label region looks fine but you only see the bottom few pixels of the task buttons anyone else experience this thanks david ransier davidr pdx mentorg com these comments are my own i paid for office them i own them they re not my fax employers and you can t have them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet in article c n k l vcd hp com robertt vcd hp com bob taylor writes justin whitton ma jjw isis ajax rsre mod uk wrote in article c eki kvp vcd hp com edmoore vcd hp com ed moore writes thomas d fellrath nd edu nd edu wrote i think the ink now used in the deskjet family is water fast i ve had pictures ruined by a few drops of rain these were colour pictures from a deskjet c mind you it could have been acid rain the black ink is waterfast but the color isn t i use a bj ex ink dries fast but it really doesn t like getting wet justin whitton at ma jjw hermes uk mod relay where no man has gone before after august mail ma jjw brunel ac uk disclaimer my opinions count for nothing except when the office is empty i m a student intelligence bob taylor hp vancouver
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	for sale borland c w application frameworks please excuse me if this is inappropriate to post here but i do not read these groups normally and i did not see any pc related marketplace newsgroups for sale borland c with application frameworks full professional developer kit borland c programming package including unopened software unopened manuals and registration card software includes still plastic wrapped high density inch disks for borland c total of diskettes in individually wrapped packages each disk has borland c and bc app frameworks on label amish system utilities for windows one high density disk amish launch amish desk utilities for windows phar lap s dos extender lite version one hd disk manuals include still plastic wrapped manuals include i e unopened a boland windows api volumes i reference guide ii reference guide iii windows reference guide b borland turbo debugger user s guide c borland turbo profiler user s guide d borland turbo assembler users guide e borland c user s guide integrated environment optimization command line compiler installation f borland c programmer s guide language structure class libraries advanced prgramming techniques anci c implementaion g borland c library reference runtime library global variables cross reference h borland c tools and utilities guide error messages winsightm make help resource compilers tlink i borland object windows for c user s guide tutorials class reference opened no plastic wrapping but unread manuals include a borland turbo assembler quick reference guide b borland turbo vision for c user s guide c borland resource workshop user s guide this package was purchased by a former employee of my father s and my father has asked me to try and sell it since neither of us have any use for it retails for most software houses have it for approx i am asking if you are interested please e mail me directly because i do not normally read this newsgroup aaron herskowitz aherskow alleg edu allegheny college meadville pennsylvania
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	strange enhanced behavior howdy we have been having a real problem with an ast sx machine with mb of ram we installed paradox for windows but i don t think paradox is the real problem here and the installation went ok windows is installed on a local drive paradox installed on a novell network netware v or greater dos win but the program will not load in enchanted mode the thermometer bar goes to and we then either get a invalid command com or a windows nastygram talking about an illegal instruction i ve checked out the command com thing but as a long time c programmer i ve crashed my share of machines with pointer problems and this is a standard behavior anyway paradox will run in standard mode but not enhanced we also have quattro pro windows exhibiting the same behavior spent about hours with borland s tech people with no avail the guy i talked to a microsoft didn t want to really dig in and help as he gave up pretty quickly somewhat disappointing really i expected more from microsoft you d think with all the millions of windows installations that they would have seen all the possible problems but i guess not microsoft had sent us a page fax on fixing uae and general protection faults sorry i can t fax anything out of here so please don t ask try microsoft which we tried we did everything they said and still no luck so if you can help please mail me this problem is driving us nuts i will greatly appreciate any information anyone can pass on thanks kelly this is the real signature please ignore the following demon signature kelly j grant grantk nosc mil hancock st the next time someone asks you if you san diego ca are a god you say yes kelly grant grantk manta nosc mil computer sciences corp important manta uucp won t get to me hancock street if you are given lemons see if you can trade for san diego ca chocolate me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions try this flip your mouse over and open up the cover that holds the mouse ball in place remove the ball and inside you should see probably rollers if any of the rollers have a tiny layer of caked on dirt dust or otherwise unidentifiable scum on them carefully scrape it off with a small knife xacto works great be careful you do not want to gauge the rollers just clean off the dirt put the ball back in put the cover on and there you are i clean a couple of dozen of these every month here another symptom is that when you move the mouse it seems to click along if this doesn t solve your problem at least you have a clean mouse i highly recommend using a proper soft mouse pad and if you are a clean freak place it in your drawer every night or when you don t use it to keep the dust off personally i prefer track balls oh which brings me to another point if your mouse or trackball tracks optically and the sunlight is streaming through the window onto your mouse trackball you may notice that it will stop working if this happens to you close the curtains or blinds or simply shade your pointing device and see if that helps peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu ca preferred pgoudswa cln etc bc ca pgoudswa cue bc ca there s no gift like the present goudswaard s observation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winqvtnet with ndis on token ring 
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more diamond ss x dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card is only in windows i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup i had a ati ultra but was getting genral protection fault errors in an spss application these card manufactures must have terrible quality control to let products on the market with so many bugs what a hassle running on gateway dx thx dave l might the problem not be with the video monitor instead many of our monitors as they age develop shadows on white and bright colors peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu ca preferred pgoudswa cln etc bc ca pgoudswa cue bc ca there s no gift like the present goudswaard s observation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	what does the bmp format mean what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like i mean how is the data stored width height no of colours bitmap data i couldn t find anything in ths user manual is there any other reference material which would give me this information thanks andrew
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dll s and registerclass createwindow hi all i have a dll in which i register a class and create a window of that class type both calls require a module instance handle hinstance petzold s book says that it is best to use the module instance handle of the calling program not the module instance handle of the dll page i have two questions is there a way to find out the module instance handle of a module what are the possible problems with using the instance handle of the dll thanks in advance mike mike smith e mail m smith ma bull com bull hn information systems inc phone concord road ma a fax billerica ma usa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	roman bmp in response to the requests for cool bitmaps i am posting one due to the resolution and size it is in parts this is a uuencoded bitmap x colors the picture is a marbled gazebo on a desert with blue sky background the size is just right for centered wallpaper on a x display because it leaves a border at the bottom just big enough for icons to fit in without being on top of the picture reguarding image quality and resolution i have not seen much better for those of you who haven t worked with pieced image files here is how to put it back together save the parts to individual files use a text editor to remove the header and footer in each file concatinate all the parts into a single file uudecode the file there are tools available to do this without the hassle such as uuconvert unix and uucoder windows if neccesary i could post these tools or where to get them by ftp let me know keywords bitmap wallpaper
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	stealth video drivers i recently purchased a diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where i can ftp the windows video drivers for the stealth i tried the drivers at cica and they don t work the right drivers are on the diamond bbs but the file is almost meg and it would take a while to download them at baud any information would be appreciated please contact me at doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	netware win fileman is there a update or something that will allow a person when using novell and windows file manager to view the files with the name of the person who created it or changed it like the novell command ndir tim osburn osburn halcyon com tim osburn kb gbq osburn halcyon com bellevue washington
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re bbbbig problem with w w print file help in article mar jupiter sun csd unb ca dwoo unb ca writes to all the w w experts i have a file that is three pages long with to line equations plus a by diagram the size of this file is about kb before unlinking all the embedded objects and kb after unlinking all the embedded objects well when i print it since i don t have a laser printer i have to send it to a print file w w gives me back a bbbbbbig file that is well over mb long i just fail to see how a k file can be boosted to a mb file obviously i will not able to carry this mb file to the public printer unless i find myself a network card a cable etc could anyone please enlighten me with a solution i already try to print a page at a time it still won t fit into a hd floppy thanx a mil dennis woo department of mechanical engineering e mail dwoo unb ca university of new brunswick tel i once had this problem all i did was to copy the whole doc to a new file the problem was gone hope this helps hua
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re tidying up after removing an ole server in article c y kz liverpool ac uk qq liverpool ac uk chris wooff writes a while ago i installed spss for windows as part of an evaluation once the evaluation was complete i duly deleted the software from my pc unfortunately there is still a ghost of spss left when i run something like write and go to embed an object then spss chart appears on the list of objects i m offered i looked around all the obvious ini files without success the next thing i tried was looking for the string spss chart in every file in the windows directory it turned up in a file called req dat or reg dat unfortunately the file was binary and so i didn t feel inclined to edit it i d welcome a solution for removing spss from the list of ole servers chris wooff c wooff liverpool ac uk you can edit that file with a utility that comes with windows called regedit registration info editor bob hodge i m going fishing you got worms yeah but i m going anyway
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt file systems in article apr spider co uk keiths spider co uk keith smith writes ok will some one out there tell me why how dos can read i havn t tried writing in case it breaks something the win nt ntfs file system i thought ntfs was supposed to be better than the fat system keith dos cannot read the ntfs file system although the ntfs file system can read the fat file system of dos i have windowsnt on a seperate partition on my machine at home and i can read my dos disks from windows nt but not vice versa as far as the robustness of the file system it seems to be very fast and i have yet to have a single problem with it that doesn t prove it s better than the fat system though read the book inside windows nt it will give you all the info you re looking for scott scott reimert reimert mamacass etdesg trw com standard disclaimer redondo beach ca blah blah blah always store beer in a cool dark place
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re viewsonic experience sought vs vs nec fg i d appreciate if you can email or post you positive or negative experience with this monitor especially compared to to nanao i i d summarize if i got multiple responses i bought a viewsonic for use at home but after a week i took it back i felt for the money my nec fg that i use at work was a much better monitor the nec is sharper flatter less distorted and more stable i have heard complaints from people about the nec fg series having some quality control problems but mine has been in use for about a year with no problems at all there was nothing really broken with the viewsonic but overall it did not match up i used my ati graphics ultra in setup mode to push the frequencies to their limits and the viewsonic exhibited some problems that the nec did not i personally like the non etched nec with the ocli filter and the tube on the was not as nice the had some uncorrectable pincusion and edge distortion problems also it would change brightness when i switched modes and i was constantly having to fiddle with the controls and the yoke was crooked and i had no way to compensate for the raster that tilted downhill on the postive side although not as handsome as the nec the had a smaller footprint and was not as heavy i have heard that panasonic owns viewsonic and the model is being sold through oem channels with a panasonic label on it if it s available that way at a lower cost i could get more serious about it for now the nec has my vote but i m searching for one of the new cheaper nec fge s to see if it s just as good as its older brother the fg before i decide which one to buy i have no experience with the nanao i can never keep the nanao models straight and don t have any place i can walk in to get a good comparison of all models standard employer disclaimers apply keith w johnson tektronix gpi nd info services wilsonville or usa internet keith w johnson tek com voice fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	rfd comp os ms windows nt misc setup this is the official request for discussion rfd for the creation of two new newsgroups for microsoft windows nt this is a second rfd replacing the one originally posted in january and never taken to a vote the proposed groups are described below name comp os ms windows nt setup status unmoderated purpose discussions about setting up and installing windows nt and about system and peripheral compatability issues for windows nt name comp os ms windows nt misc status unmoderated purpose miscellaneous non programming discussions about using windows nt including issues such as security networking features console mode and windows win compatability rationale microsoft nt is the newest member of the microsoft windows family of operating systems or operating environments for those who wish to argue about the meaning of an os the family ranges from modular windows through windows and windows for workgroups to windows nt at the high end to date microsoft has shipped over beta copies and pre release sdks of windows nt the actual release is slated for may june while windows nt has an entirely new design internally it shares an application programming interface with the other members of the windows family its win api includes the win api used in win dows and the win s api subset win less threads networking and security can be used to create bit applications for windows the user interface is also practically identical to that of windows with the addition of logins and a few other features it uses program manager file manager and other applets and generally pre sents an identical appearance to the user many of the announced windows nt applications are ports of existing windows apps and nt also runs existing applications thus it appears logical that windows nt should share the following groups with the other members of the windows family comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows programmer tools comp os ms windows programmer misc comp os ms windows programmer win the following groups are also clearly applicable to windows nt as well as windows comp os ms windows announce comp os ms windows advocacy in conclusion the only clear argument for the separation of the windows and windows nt hierarchies is different internal structures of windows and windows nt and yet operating systems such as os macintosh os xenix and coherent all have undergone major rewrites without having been split into separate newsgroup hierarchies further windows is due for a major rewrite itself in when the fully bit protected mode and with dos built in next generation windows chicago debuts next year surely it should remain in the same hierarchy and what then would be the jus tification for separating windows nt from other windows versions discussion period the discussion period will run from april to may voting the cfv call for votes will be issued around may based on the feedback received during the discussion period no votes will be accepted prior to the cfv tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dde frustrations can you help i am starting to work on a project using dde to transfer data the application came with an excel macro which can transfer the data i need to port it to w w uses a very different setup for dde macros does anyone have any suggestions as to good references i have downloaded ww windows dynamic exchange dde the ms application note any books worth getting the specifics are server application dionex ai chromatography data system client application for windows v except for the macro dionex did not provide any documentation for dde also i am having problems because i am trying to develop the application on my pc but to actually get data you need to be connect to the instrument any help here would be appreciated too thanks leon m olszewski nothing is worse than having an itch you can internet leono uiuc edu never scratch leon bladerunner
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos window macros does anyone know a program that will record keyboard sequences that i do in a windowed dos box i would like to have something that starts a telnet program and then logs me into my accounts windows recorder doesn t seem to be able to record the key sequences thanks steve
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	adobe and adobe i wanted to create a postcript file with win to print it on a laserwriter ii it created a postcript file version adobe but our laser accept only adobe how resolve this problem thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted bus card for logitech mouse i ve acquired an old logitech series button mouse and i m told that this is a bus mouse does anyone want to unload an old pc clone bus card for this mouse email replies to bobmon cs indiana edu thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	flame therapy i think it would be a great idea to have a new group created comp sys ibm pc flame therapy anybody agree
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re warning on copy ii pc board help on copying in c zwc lk acsu buffalo edu v kcbp ubvmsd cc buffalo edu mitch writes now does anyone know a way to back up the masters of word perfect for windows windows and norton so i can send another copy to my permanent non college address for safe keeping students keep borrowing my masters and i m worried they ll get screwed up please don t tell me you realize of course that inevitably some anal retentive moron is going to come along and wag his fingers and his jowls in outrage that personal politics are more important than smcap bold font god pt the law smcap bold font but that s irrelevant to the problem here windows came with my system but on disks i hate using disks so i copied them over to high density s using xcopy it worked fine in fact for a while i was changing configurations and whatnot so much that i decided to try putting them on the hard disk not only can you copy them over with one disk per directory but if you want to you can simply copy them all into one directory makes it a lot nicer when you re switching printer emulations around norton i don t have much experience with but when a friend s system crashed we restored from a backup rather than from the originals and it worked fine this would imply that arj a r norton c nu would create a workable backup and if you did a full install the first time you ve got the whole thing never played with wp for windows i m not too big of a fan of anything from utah good luck disclaimer don t copy that floppy tm just say no r respect your elders for the wages of sin is sic death and a hefty legal bill do you offend rob rob kudla acm rpi edu keywords oldfield jane s leather yes win phish light blue right bondage r e m dtp steely dan ds fnm owl genesis in the spaceship the silver spaceship the lion takes control
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re pc keyboard in article hxg nxl rpi edu wen yingyang ral rpi edu john wen writes from wen yingyang ral rpi edu john wen subject pc keyboard summary location of cap lock and ctrl keys on pc keyboard keywords cap lock and ctrl key date mon apr gmt does anyone know of a software that can exchange caps lock and ctrl keys on the at style keyboard i m looking for a memory resident program that can work with other programs rather than a feature in a specific program i am aware of a shareware program back and forth that provides this feature within that program thanks a program in the archive keymap zip on simtel and mirror sites in the msdos keyboard directory will do this it is written in assembler and it best if you have a compiler to create a new keyboard map it is possible however to use a binary editor to edit the provided compiled keyboard driver if you do not have a compiler i used hexed zip also available on simtel simply serach for the codes to locate the biginning of the normal keyboard map then swap the codes for the keys that you wish to swap see the keyboard directory of simtel for programs that report the scancode for each key to you some bios programs also have this info good luck pete peter j mckinney pm longs lance colostate edu electrohydrodynamic laboratory fluid mechanics and wind engineering program civil engineering department colorado state university
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	please help identify video hardware i need a device either an isa board or a subsystem which will take two rgb video signals and combine them according to a template the template can be as simple as a rectangular window with signal one being used for the interior and signal two for the exterior but i beleive fancier harware may also exist which i do not want to exclude from my search i know this sort of hardware exists for ntsc etc but i need it for rgb please email and or post any leads gordon lang glang smail srl ford com or glang holo srl ford com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how long do monitors last well my inch vga x interlacing year old no brand monitor just bit the bullet i pressed the power switch and a few seconds later the power light went out with a pop gawd it s only been two and half years how long would normal monitors last i think the problem with my monitor is the power switch but the image was getting pretty dim anyway i needed to have my contrast all the way to the max and the screen did flicker from time to time is this normal hehehe or do i just have the worst of luck question what do i do now buy a new one get it fixed save up for a really good one and get by with a cheap ega monitor for now i rather save my money to upgrade my sx to though thanks what engineers say extensive effort is being applied on a fresh approach to the problem what they really mean we just hired three new guys we ll let them kick it around for a while robert bobby yung ry lehigh edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	attn ken smith it is model number d a interlaced dp btw if you have a number to contact the company that would really be helpful to thanks for replying i was beginning to believe that i was never going to get a reply i posted this on the netnews bboard because the first message i sent to you was returned and i didn t know if my second message would get to you calvin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re share your optimization tips in article pm pinnp geraldo cc utexas edu jbodnar ccwf cc utexas edu john bodnar writes according to e p unl edu edgar pearlstein here s another one my computer arrived with the following statement in its config sys file stacks i changed it to stacks and saved bytes maybe it could be lowered even more but i haven t tried it exactly regardless of what microsoft says i have set stacks on every single computer i have installed windows on from a simple sx up to dx with eisa motherboards ndi volante tiga adapters intel ethernet express cards and caching scsi controllers from dpt and dtc not a problem yet and the extra k gained means a lot with conventional memory gobbling programs like orcad and tango pcb john bodnar while we liked developing windows the university of texas at austin applications we never inhaled internet jbodnar ccwf cc utexas edu uucp cs utexas ut ccwf jbodnar borland ceo philippe kahn i remember reading somewhere qemm manual i think that stack is needed only for the windows setup program otherwise use stack rich
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway and ati lb problem i was wondering if anyone out there has had the same problem i am having with my gateway dx vl bus system with ati graphics ultra pro lb when i have my computer in any resolution other than x everything is fine but whenever i use it in x windows autocad gifs the screen gets about inches shorter at the very top and very bottom of the screen there is about a bar of black the screen isn t cut off it just squeezes everything into the smaller space and messes up the aspect ratio while i can manually change the v size on the back this is a pain in the ass and it just shouldn t happen anyway i ve called gateway numerous times and they haven t been able to help me at all two different times they sent me a new card and both times the new card didn t work at all in my computer they even tried to bill me for the first card because they didn t get it back in a couple of days when they told me over the phone that they would wait more than weeks before billing my card but their customer support is a different story so if anyone has had this same problem please let me know if you know what to do hell let me know if you don t have a solution just so i know i m not the only one with this problem thanks in advance jude m greer jmgree starbase spd louisville edu p s i already tried going into the mach install program and manually set ting up the card doesn t work whenever i try to increase the vertical size of the x screen it just starts to cut off the top and bottom
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gw and simms in article bu edu nshah acs bu edu writes i have a gateway local bus system it has slots for simms that either have to use or mb simms my question i just received a x ns simm and it has pins the slot on the motherboard has at least or so pins did i get the wrong simm or can i still use my simm although not all the pins on the slot would be flilled i have never encountered such a long slot for simms before anyone have suggestions i can t get a hold of gateway yet thanks please post to the net or nshah acs bu edu yes you bought the wrong simms you need x or x which are pin simms these are better anyway becuase the send receive data in byte bit bit parity one for each byte chunks you will undoubtedly see these simms becoming more widely used in the near future jason jason walters jpw lehigh edu jpw pl eecs lehigh edu a k a modem mouth
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re intel the pentium and linux inabu ibm rz tu clausthal de arnd burghardt writes hi folks yesterday i visited the cebit hannover germany where intel was presenting the pentium processor they had four in words machines with this beast running so they presented it nicely unly by running picture shows this i could do on a the presentor promised it to be binary compatible to the i and i said i don t believe i showed him a one disk linux system emergency disk with patched lilo to boot from disk and said him convice me boot this no guts no glory a he decided no glory he won t let anybody touch his holy cows and not even boot a suspect os i thought by myself this is the coward of the day and went back to earth what cn we learn this technology is far from industrial standarts so you can expect this beast in your local computer shop at least in spring next year only my cents yes only your here s mine if i were running at a new chip at a trade show and had little to no real technical knowledge i wouldn t let some stranger with a diskette boot my demo machine if the demo machine is down too long people will not see my nice demos and if this purposted linux diskette is really something that will wipe the disk or is loaded with a virus i m in deep trouble no marketer in their right mind would let you do this unless they had specifically invited people to do so and provided machines to do it with we can we learn this technology will be shipping from pc vendors in may and will be i compatible the golden gryphon gryphon openage com the crown jewel of the american prison system president bill clinton on living in the white house openage the premier sco unix integrator in the washington d c area
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re warranty extension by credit company applies to the phurchase of computer huayong yang yang titan ucs umass edu wrote most if not all credit card companies offer to double the warranty up to one year namely if you make a purchase by a credit card you get additional warranty up to one year does it apply to the purchase of computers i wonder if anyone out there has used it is there any catch thanks in advance i am just about to post the results of my big computer purchase one of the key points was the ability to use my american express card i read the fine print between double warranty policies of amex and citibank visa sure both will allow you double warranty on computers but citibank has a maximum claim of could you imagine trying to get your monitor or mother board fixed for amex has no limit on claims remember if you use amex you must either send a copy of the warranty info to them in days from purchase or you must call them to pre register and then send them the paperwork within days of purchase my pre register pak arrived today citibank visa requires no pre registration ken
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	another happy gateway owner since i ve been seeing all kinds of complaints regarding gateways lately on here i thought i post my recent pleasant experiences my machine dx v this past friday this was two weeks to the day from when i called the order in upon unboxing it i found everything to be in perfect order all the peripherals i ordered were properly installed jumbo cd rom i was very impressed with the quantity and quality of the gateway documentation all software came with the original disks and manuals the gateway manual itself is in a nice ring binder the ati gup came with build drivers all other software i specified microsoft office was properly installed the machine came right up out of the box and has been performing flawlessly it s been on all weekend and it hardly even reaches room temperature i think the big roomy tower case has a lot to do with it it s up and running dos with no problems i ve also read about some people having problems with high speed serial communications i used the dos interlink program which lets me link to my old computer via a serial port at k baud it then maps the other machines two hard disks as my disks f g you can cd to these drives and either run programs or copy files it s almost like a peer peer lan except you can also run programs on the other machine it s not a two way street the other machine is the server and this machine is the client so thats where it seems to differ from the peer to peer stuff for a bundled dos utility its very impressive my jumbo took about minutes to back up mb of data i also by passed any potential gateway monitor problems by taking the credit and applying it towards a nec fg i love this monitor so i m glad there is some good news gateway stories and i m glad it was me now if it just keeps working john john gayman wa wbu uucp uunet wa wbu john packet wa wbu wb eah
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	winmarks where can i get it where can i get the winmarks benchmark to run on my pc via ftp would be best roger bix ruzun net uzun crash cts com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway and ati lb problem in article jmgree starbase spd louisville edu jmgree starbase spd louisville edu jude m greer writes i was wondering if anyone out there has had the same problem i am having with my gateway dx vl bus system with ati graphics ultra pro lb when i have my computer in any resolution other than x everything is fine but whenever i use it in x windows autocad gifs the screen gets about inches shorter at the very top and very bottom of the screen there is about a bar of black the screen isn t cut off it just squeezes everything into the smaller space and messes up the aspect ratio while i can manually change the v size on the back this is a pain in the ass and it just shouldn t happen anyway i ve called gateway numerous times and they haven t been able to help me at all two different times they sent me a new card and both times the new card didn t work at all in my computer they even tried to bill me for the first card because they didn t get it back in a couple of days when they told me over the phone that they would wait more than weeks before billing my card but their customer support is a different story so if anyone has had this same problem please let me know if you know what to do hell let me know if you don t have a solution just so i know i m not the only one with this problem thanks in advance jude m greer jmgree starbase spd louisville edu p s i already tried going into the mach install program and manually set ting up the card doesn t work whenever i try to increase the vertical size of the x screen it just starts to cut off the top and bottom maybe its a monitor problem you mentioned that you swapped cards but not monitors perhaps that could be it dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	simm for sale i have mx ns pin simm for sale it is in perfect condition it will not work in my system because it requires pin simms i would like to get what i paid for it for insured shipping in addition if you have a mb ns pin eisa or ps type simm for sale drop me a line thanks nimesh shah nshah acs bu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re the infamous gateway video monitor problem info requested greg spath gks psuvm psu edu wrote in article c ueom evf odin corp sgi com mikey sgi com mike yang says so by going mailorder through gateway i save plus i get technical support over the phone free software package have fun trying to get hold of technical support over the phone at least locally you can walk right up to the dealer and tell him what is wrong and he has to fix it phone support is quick and competent from many mail order firms but not so quick and not so competent from others gateway included but my experience with computer retailers which is significant has lead to the conclusion that sales personnel and retail technical personnel are forbidden to actually learn about the products they sell talk about incompetent o k so a few percent of their answers are correct but those salesmen don t even realize how stupid they are o k i ll settle down now let me catch my breath fact retail stores never provide a better value in terms of price per product retail outlets are desirable however to those people who aren t interested in learning about computers enough to make their own decisions this is fine for example most of my education about carpeting wall paper lawn mowers microwave ovens etc has come from sales personnel i assume i must be an idiot but i don t care about those things i do however care about my computer i e i demand features and performance and i ll be damned if i ll pay some high school drop out commission on an over rated over priced system and in the process be subjected to his distorted b s g l are generally so
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re what is a shadow mask andrew bw colfelt colfelt ucsu colorado edu wrote shadow mask is when you put your face into main memory keep your day job
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re drive controller compatibility thanks to all who responded to my original post i got the number for western digital tech support and determined that i need to upgrade the bios to the super bios it will handle hard drives with up to read write heads and up to cylinders the upgrade is payable by check or money order send to western digital corporation technical support group p o box irvine ca the super bios is for any wd xt hard drive controller card in the wd series the bios on my system would only handle up to mb drives the responses to my request for help follow my sig warning it s long keith d keith rice university of north texas department of computer science denton texas usa drice ponder csci unt edu drice cs unt edu responses below from ravalent mailbox syr edu sat apr received from mailbox syr edu by ponder id aa sat apr from ravalent mailbox syr edu bob valentine received from mothra syr edu by mailbox syr edu cns id aa sat apr est received by mothra syr edu spike id aa sat apr est date sat apr est message id aa mothra syr edu to drice ponder status or to drice ponder csci unt edu subject re drive controller compatibility newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware in reply to drice ponder organization syracuse university syracuse ny cc in article drice ponder you write i recently bought a used seagate st hard drive the guy told me that it had been fully tested and that it was good i took it home to install in my compaq portable ok i m a little behind in technology i already had an mfm controller i installed the drive and powered up the system i got a post error my controller is a western digital wd s wx rev c as i said above the drive is a seagate st the system is a compaq portable circa ah finally a question i can answer i mess with this older stuff alot kinda fun first problem i can forsee is that the st will not be compadible with that wd card unless it has the right bios rom check the numbers on it it should be the only non smt chip on the board slightly below center and left the bios should read either or x if the last digits are you got problems controller jumpers are set as follows represents jumper w w w w w w w looks right w and w are factory jumped with a trace between pins and to select the primary controller address the drive jumpers are as follows represents jumper looks right art deleted here are my questions are the drive and controller compatible w each other i notice you left out the s jumper table settings those are what control what drive the controller thinks it has if you have the rom set it like this open open open open closed closed open open note those are how wd runs the numbers on the jumper block top to bottom s represent the jumper pins pins and select the first drive setting drive and pins and select the second drive drive if you have the rom it s a auto config and i ll have to look up how to do it i don t have the big book right here are the jumpers on the card drive set correctly see above you might have problems if the s jumpers are not right also at the risk of being insulting make sure the cables are on right and good on the jumper on the try moving it to the opposite side of the drive it s one or the other the narrow data cable goes to j i ve thrown it on j a few times and banged my head for a day is my system s bios in need of an upgrade dunno ibm roms had to be later than a quick way to check is to boot dos and run debug enter d f fff fffc the is the debug prompt this will return the rom date if it s of any use keith rice if i oversimplified any of the above i appologize it s just hard to know what caliber of person i m talking to bob valentine ravalent mailbox syr edu from chpp unitrix utr ac za mon apr received from unitrix utr ac za by ponder id aa mon apr received by unitrix utr ac za smail id m nfpma x c mon apr gmt message id m nfpma x c unitrix utr ac za from chpp unitrix utr ac za prof p piacenza subject st to drice ponder date mon apr gmt x mailer elm version pl mime version content type text plain charset us ascii content transfer encoding bit content length status or if you are using a twisted way cable then move the jumper on your drive to the neighbouring pins make sure that the twisted cable is for a hard disk and not a floppy disk the coloured stripe pin should be furthest from the twist this may also help products for xt systems hard disk controllers for mfm hard disk drives reference note wd a wx feature f r half slot size hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders and is jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting this board features a power connector for filecard applications and it will also operate in at systems please note that this controller card will be unavailable from the manufacturer western digital after march reference note wdxt gen feature f r half slot size hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting please note that this controller card will be unavailable from the manufacturer western digital after march wd a wx feature f r half slot size disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders and is jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting this board features a power connector for filecard applications and it will also operate in at systems reference note wdxt gen feature f r half slot size hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting reference note hard disk controllers for rll hard disk drives reference note wd x feature f r half slot size hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders and is jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting this board features a power connector for filecard applications and it will also operate in at systems please note that this controller card will be unavailable from the manufacturer western digital after march reference note wd a x feature r half slot size hard disk controller with an st st interface it supports rll drives with up to heads and cylinders built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting bad track formatting and dynamic formatting please note that this controller card will be unavailable from the manufacturer western digital after march wd x feature f r half slot size hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders and is jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting this board features a power connection for filecard applications and it will also operate in at systems reference note wd a x feature f r half slot size hard disk controller with an st st interface it supports rll drives with up to heads and cylinders built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting bad track formatting and dynamic formatting note at t the at t and the at t plus contain system bios chips that support the hard disk drive when using a western digital xt controller card the system will not boot to solve this problem one of the rom bios chips must be disabled to disable the bios on your western digital xt controller card you must remove the jumper at position w or add a jumper at position r depending on which model of xt controller you are using note tandy systems the wd a wx wd a wx wdxt gen and the wd x can be modified to operate in tandy series computers models sx tx and the original or a version these computers utilize an interrupt of irq instead of irq the ibm standard to modify the wd a wx or the wd x to operate in these systems you must cut the etch between pin and pin at jumper position w then solder pin and pin at the position w to complete the modification a jumper must be added to position of switch s rows of pins please note that any physical modification to your western digital hard disk controller voids the warranty on your board to modify the wd a wx wdxt gen or the wd x for your tandy system a zero ohm resister must be soldered to jumper position w this will change the interrupt from irq to irq xt controllers for floppy disk drives wd a fox half slot floppy disk controller for xt or at systems four versions of the board are available feature f supports two floppy disk drives feature f supports four floppy disk drives and includes an optional pin control data and power connector and an optional pin power connector feature f supports two floppy disk drives and includes a rom bios that will enable your system to recognize floppy disk drive that may not be supported by your at system rom bios the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card to operate high density floppy disk drives in an xt system feature f supports four floppy disk drives and includes an optional pin control data and power connector an optional pin power connector and a rom bios that will enable your system to recognize floppy disk drives that may not be supported by your at system rom bios the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card to operate high density floppy disk drives in an xt system products for at systems hard disk controllers for mfm hard disk drives no floppy support wd wah feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders interleave wd v mm feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders interleave the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed wd wah feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders interleave wd v mm feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders interleave and faster data transfer due to look ahead caching the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed hard disk controllers for mfm hard disk drives and floppy disk drives wd wa feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface full at form factor it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave and floppy disk drives k and mb wd a wa feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface full xt form factor it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave and floppy disk drives k and mb wd v mm feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports a maximum of mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave and floppy disk drives k mb k mb the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed wd v mm feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports a maximum of mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave and faster data transfer due to look ahead caching and floppy disk drives k mb k mb the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed hard disk controllers for rll hard disk drives no floppy support wd rah hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave wd v sr hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports a maximum of rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed feature f r includes an optional rom bios that allows the user to define the drive s parameters feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters wd rah hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports a maximum of rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders interleave feature f r includes an optional rom bios that provides additional drive parameter tables feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters wd v sr hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders interleave and faster data transfer due to look ahead caching the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed feature f r includes an optional rom bios that allows the user to define the drive s parameters feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters hard disk controllers for rll hard disk drives and floppy disk drives wd ra feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports a maximum of rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave and floppy disk drives k mb wd v sr hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports a maximum of rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave and floppy disk drives k mb k mb the v boards run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed feature f r includes an optional rom bios that allows the user to define the drive s parameters feature r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters wd v sr hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports a maximum of rll hard disk drives with up to heads cylinders and floppy disk drives k mb k mb it also features interleave and faster data transfer due to look ahead caching the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed feature f r includes an optional rom bios that allows the user to define the drive s parameters feature r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters hard disk controllers for esdi hard disk drives no floppy support wd a wah this controller card will support up to esdi hard disk drives megabit per second data transfer rate and interleave feature f r includes an optional rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters wd v se me this controller card will support up to esdi hard disk drives megabit per second data transfer rate and interleave the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed feature f r includes an optional rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters hard disk controllers for esdi hard disk drives and floppy disk drives wd a wa this controller card will support up to esdi hard disk drives megabit per second data transfer rate interleave and floppy disk drives k mb k mb feature f r includes an optional rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters wd v se me this controller card will support up to esdi hard disk drives megabit per second data transfer rate interleave and floppy drives k mb k mb the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz bus speed feature f r includes an optional rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters wd a wa this controller card will support up to esdi hard disk drives megabit per second data transfer rate interleave and floppy disk drives k mb k mb this board also has a serial port and parallel port feature f r includes an optional rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameter hard disk controllers for scsi hard disk drives asc a scsi host adapter that serves as an interface between the at bus and the scsi bus all necessary drivers and receivers are included permitting direct cable connections to the scsi bus through a pin connector and to the at bus through two edge connectors the asc utilizes jumper configurable options that enable the address space dma channels and interrupt requests to be selected to suit the end user s application the board also features word data transfer at megabytes per second synchronous an on board floppy disk controller and a rom bios please note that the asc operates using standard dos or dos only fasst this scsi host adapter card provides the same features as the asc plus additional support capabilities using software developed by columbia data products the fasst will support ms dos compaq dos pc dos pc mos version xenix microsoft windows novell and sytos tape backup wdatxt fasst kit an unintelligent scsi host adapter that is compatible with the ibm xt at and compatible systems it uses a pin external scsi bus d connector with a standard pin internal scsi cable the wdatxt fasst can be used as both a target and an initiator and it serves as an excellent tool for scsi designers it also provides a low cost alternative for end users desiring to install a scsi peripheral device such as a hard disk drive or a tape backup unit the kit includes an bit scsi hba board manual fasst software diskettes and an internal scsi cable sytos tape backup utility for fasst fasst sytos fasst version of sytos tape backup utilities ms dos compatible it runs with fasst software products revision hard disk controllers for ps model systems microchannel architecture wd v mc feature f r hard disk controller with an st st interface for microchannel systems it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders interleave and faster data transfer due to look ahead caching the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed wd v mc feature f r this controller card will support up to esdi hard disk drives megabit per second transfer rate and it contains a rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi hard disk drives without modifying the system bios it uses interleave the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz bus speed controllers for floppy disk drives only wd a fox half slot floppy disk controller for xt or at systems four versions of the board are available feature f supports two floppy disk drives feature f supports four floppy disk drives and includes an optional pin control data and power connector and an optional pin power connector feature f supports two floppy disk drives and includes a rom bios that will enable your system to recognize floppy disk drives that may not be supported by your at system rom bios the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card to operate high density floppy disk drives in an xt system feature f supports four floppy disk drives and includes an optional pin control data and power connector an optional pin power connector and a rom bios that will enable your system to recognize floppy disk drives that may not be supported by your at system rom bios the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card to operate high density floppy disk drives in an xt system prof l piacenza chemistry department university of transkei internet chpp unitrix utr ac za preferred tel internet sppp hippo ru ac za from necis mydual uucp olson transfer stratus com mon apr received from transfer stratus com by ponder id aa mon apr received from necis uucp by transfer stratus com jjm id aa mon apr edt received from mydual by necis necis ma nec com id aa apr edt received by mydual uucp smail id aa mon apr est date mon apr est from kirtland h olson mydual olson transfer stratus com message id aa mydual uucp to drice ponder subject re drive controller compatibility newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware in reply to drice ponder organization the harvard group reply to necis olson mydual uucp transfer stratus com cc status or suggest you move jumper on drive rightward one position regards kirt kirtland h olson harvard ma usa olson mydual uucp necis ma nec com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	com com is there a hardware standard help i need to implement com and com on a board that i m designing and i m finding it dificult to track down a definition hardware that is of com and com i have the io adresses and the fact that com shares irq with com and com shares irq with com except exactly how this irq sharing is done is not clear especially if the existing com does not allow irq sharing does the standard allow for a different irq to be used and if so how please answer by email to neil stone oz au thanks in advance neil watkinson
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re null modem pin serial bruce maynard drac uumeme chi il us wrote in article mal psuvm psu edu mitch lewars mal psuvm psu edu writes can someone give me the specs on a null modem cable i ferget which get crossed mal psuvm psu edu that s an easy one carry all pins straight thru with the exception of pins which should be crossed as someone else already mentioned don t carry thru the other pins plan a minimal null modem sg sg td rd rd td if you re transfering files betwen pcs this ought to work unless you have a persnickity comm program plan b null modem with modem control sg sg td rd rd td dcd dtr dtr dcd some comm software will wait for dcd before transferring anything such software will raise dtr to enable the modem to accept a call with this cable each side s dtr will drive the other s dcd plan c null modem with hardware flow control sg sg td rd rd td rts cts cts rts for high speed transfers you want the flow control plan d deluxe null modem combine b and c sg sg td rd rd td rts cts cts rts dcd dtr dtr dcd this one is ideal it leaves out dsr and ri rarely used anymore if you re really paranoid or you just have an th wire to spend you might add fg fg the pin numbers above are obviously for pin connectors i don t have a pin pinout handy wayne hamilton i net hamilton osiris cso uiuc edu lowtek box urbana il voice bbs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted slot card with vga hdd contr hello i am looking for a pc card with the following features controller for ide at bus harddiskdrive controller for floppydiskdrives standard kb vga graphics including feature connector important there are some manufacturors distributors of this kind of card but i have not found them yet if you can help me please mail to ich djukfa ich zam zam kfa juelich de thanks a lot martin mueller
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how to program a pc keyboard itself hi all i have heard that somewhere there exist programmable keyboards eg one can program displays on the keys to show some specific characters et c does it mean that there is some way of transmitting some non trivial data to the kb as opposed to standard numlock on off typeamatic specs from inside the pc software i have not found any corresponding reference in the specs for the pc kb interface anyone have any ideas except that they may encode data by the sequences of the standard commands mentioned above which wouldn t look too neat besides what would one do from an xt great thanks in advance andrew
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dcc and minidisc next dat dds like st st brownvm brown edu wrote as far as i can tell the md is an offshoot of technology that already exists it is an mo drive mo drives exist already for computers they re expensive and a bit slow but the disks are cheep mb disks dan i read a recent article in personal computer world mainly about the new digit audion formats dcc and md but at the end talked about how nice it would be to use these for data storage with a brief calculation of how much data you could store the author had been talking to someone from sony about these formats and mentioned this to get the reply md is a purely audio format we wouldn t use it for data then when pressed for info about mo the sony man basically admitted that it was no more than a slight adaptabtion on md what i think the original poster was wanting was mo drives at md audio player prices i d assume that the problem here is that an md system can have higher tolerances than an mo system as the ear doesn t pick up the occasional bit error as well as an archiving program david shepherd des inmos co uk tel x inmos ltd aztec west almondsbury bristol bs sq they didn t like the rates they don t like the poll tax and they won t like the council tax nicholas ridley
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problem maxtor lxt s spins down with no reason please help if you can with the following strange problem the maxtor drive in my clone would from time to time for no obvious reason spin down completely one can tell by the sound and simply refuse to be accessed dos reacts with an error drive d cannot be accessed or something the like unfortunately i cannot just reproduce the error sometimes it occurs more often sometimes less the last time it happened was when i wanted to demonstrate some software to a colleague i would like to know if anybody has experienced similar problems i don t like to take the thing to the dealer only to be told that there s nothing wrong with it i checked the other post in this group about maxtor and i don t seem to be the only one who has problems however no one describes the same problem and i also have a different configuration thanx in advance for any e mailed help peter list of equipment computer mandax mainboard mb adaptec scsi master maxtor lxt s scsi ii hard drive nec cdr cd rom reader problem remains with cd rom removed et vga card config sys files device c dos setver exe device c windows himem sys device c system aspi dos sys device c system aswcdnec sys d neccd dos high country c dos country sys device c dos display sys con ega autoexe bat c windows smartdrive sys path c windows c dos set temp c dos mode con codepage prepare c dos ega cpi mode con codepage select keyb sg c dos keyboard sys c system mscdex d neccd l d v peter schneider englisches seminar e mail pschneid es unizh ch universitaet zurich phone plattenstrasse fax ch zurich switzerland
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ati gup and vpic could someone tell me if the ati graphic ultra pro is supported in a version of vpic now if so where is it located thanks robert email replies would be appreciated robert merlicek cbr from hell robert ctpm uq oz au engage ludicrous speed
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	thanks backing up masters just a quick thanks to the many who explained the backing up of my masters apparently they are not copy protected i just used a program that is unable to handle high density old shit i was surprised to hear that no programs on high density disks have copy protection which someone back there said huh learn something new every day mitch
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	irq limits help i would like advice on how to configure my to accept com com currently on irq and lpt irq bus mouse irq sound card no idea what to do can be set to any using irq for bus mouse gobbled up too many cycles and caused loss of communications with floppy disks and a few other problems i could i suppose switch the com devices externally and disable the second port on the super io card but i really want to have them both available could the sound card use irq without horsing up the works all replies apppreciated and i only just subscribed to this newsgroup i assume there is an faq somewhere rather i m sure someone will tell me about it thanks mark fraser
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	is mb sec hd transfer slow for dx eisa with ultrastor f hi i recently switched my old amiga with a dx my computer configuration is dx mhz kb eisa micronics motherboard asic eisa mhz mb ram st n mb harddisk scsi ultrastor f eisa cache controller when i use norton harddisk benchmark i get a harddisk data transfer about kb sec and sometimes mb sec is that good i thought that with eisa i could get about mb sec somewhere in the manual for my harddisk i have read that some host adapters need to perform a low level format to optimize the harddisk performance in that system do i need that a guy i know gets a hd transfer about mb sec and he has an st a and a isa dx how can a isa with the same system be faster is there anything that i can do to get a speedier harddisk thanks phantom diku dk e mail is preffered working on a sign are we live or on tape
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dx vs dx ay in many recent advertisements i have seen both dx and dx ay based systems does the first really exists and does it imply that all ay circuitry on the motherboard with it works at that speed as opposite ay latter where only the internals of the cpu are working at mhz ay ay many thanx in advance ay ay andrew andrew yes there is a dx and dx version of the mhz if you are considering buying one or the other definitely go for the dx with a nice size external cache the performance is far greater the dx only has the internal k cache to work with at mhz while the dx has a potentially much larger cache to work at mhz with neither systems could actually run a program out of main memory since dram is still too slow for that high of bus speed ns mhz mhz rdd winqwk b unregistered evaluation copy kmail d w net hq hal k ann arbor mi us or hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re i don t understand si mg joohwee students neural iss nus sg wrote mg i went buying simms recently and the sales person told me that the mg are chip simms and chip simms and one cannot use them interchan mg if you use one you have to use all of the same type don t believe everything you are told i can tell you that mixing them between banks ok and i can t see why mixing in one bank is not unless they are of different speeds e g mixing of ns and ns simms in one bank the two only differ in the type of chips it uses assuming that the simms are mx bit wide here is the two equivalent configuration the chip simm uses two bit wide mbit m of bit nibbles and one bit wide mbit chip for a total of bit wide mbyte the bit simm uses nine bit wide mbit chips these are equivalent because of the way that it is pinned on the simm board at the simm interface they both act as bit wide mbyte simms sorry if too techie for ya mg similarly one cannot plug in two mb simms and one mb simms to gi mg the system a total of meg why is that so if my system supports mg of meg it has simm slots can i plug in mb simms to give my mg mb that sounds correct the problem is that if your computer takes bit wide simms you can not mix different sizes in one bank why you ask simple if you understand why there is banks assuming you have a bit cpu dx or the data bus e g the mechanism to retrieve data from memory is bits wide so the computer expects to see bits when it asks for data to get that bandwidth bit wide the motherboard links mx one bit is not data but parity so i will ignore that in this simple explaination to get bits bits that means that a simm in a bank stores only of the bit wide data if you have a bit bus two mx simms are linked together to get bit wide data which is the reason why banks are simms wide and bit banks are simms wide if your computer required mx e g bit wide data with parity bits used in some ps s and asts you could upgrade by one simm at a time hope that this message is not over your head but the answer to your question was not simple i could of just said because i said so rdd winqwk b unregistered evaluation copy kmail d w net hq hal k ann arbor mi us or hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dx km is the dx anything more than a myth i haven t heard of it km from any source that i trust and i sure don t see any ads for dx km machines in computer shopper intel is pretty busy with the pentium km right now i can t seem them introducing their own competition i heard the rumor as well but the story differed intel was not coming out with the tripling clock a clone from ibm was i got this rumor from a pretty good source has designs computer equipment and hav never been wrong let but there is a first time for everything i can just hear that rumor mill turning now rdd winqwk b unregistered evaluation copy kmail d w net hq hal k ann arbor mi us or hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	simm speed b bk is it possible to plug in ns or ns simms into a motherboard saying bk wants ns simms you shouldn t have troubles i have heard of machines having problems with slower than recommended memory speeds but never faster bk also is it possible to plug in simms of different bk speeds into the same motherboard ie megs of ns and megs of bk or something like that sure i have ns simms in one bank and ns simms in the other i have a i wouldn t recommend mixing speeds within a bank just to be on the safe side rdd rdesonia erim org winqwk b unregistered evaluation copy kmail d w net hq hal k ann arbor mi us or hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vesa local bus is it possible to plug an ordinary isa card into a vesa localbus slot i am running out of slots and i have one spare localbus slot doug rabson ioc ltd email dfr ioc co uk phone drabson cix compulink co uk fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	compaq and standard simm ram help hello can anyone out there tell me if it is possible to put ordinary standard simm ram chips ns in a compaq prolinea or do compaq require special compaq ram chips please also email me thanks in advance jesper jesper honig spring spring diku dk if animals believed in god university of copenhagen denmark the devil would be a man
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	appletalk hookup what ways are there to hook up to an appletalk network to use an apple laserwriter is there a way i can use an appleshare file server also the less memory used the better thanks any help greatly appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cmos memory loss any idea why how is the cmos backed up dry cell batteries or ni cad cell your batteries may be dead mwallack kean ucs mun ca mwallack kean ucs mun ca wrote a friend s computer recently failed to recognize its hard drive on examination it was discovered that the cmos had lost all data no other problems were discovered when the cmos was restored everything appeared to work as before this all happened after a long period of stable operation the most recent change had been the addition of a second hard drive as a slave qemm had been installed along with deskview for quite a while any ideas the computer is a dx with megs of ram an ati wonder xl card and is about a year and a half old
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx anonymous i saw a posting about the choice between dx and a dx i was wondering although a dx is faster because of the path to it s external cache shouldn t the choice be the dx as that one can be made to work properly with a local bus i mean cache speed is one thing but all your speed will be blocked during video i o so just get that faster i m willing to speculate that the dx with local bus will be times as fast as the dx and probably as expensive or cheap regards jv name j v meuldijk o o address gildelaar hw teteringen holland e mail volkert kub nl oooo oooo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vga on atari monoitor is it possible to connect a atari monochrome monitor to some kind of vga card if someone have done this please let me know how thanx l l max brante m max tdb uu se l l l l l l l l l l institutionen f r teknisk databehandling l l l l l l uppsala universitet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx robert desonia hal k ann arbor mi us robert desonia writes i heard the rumor as well but the story differed intel was not coming out with the tripling clock a clone from ibm was no rumour ibm s clock tripling chip was seen in some trade show last fall comdex or something i wasn t there all you people who are drooling after this chip do realize that it has no fpu just like sx that evil marketing ploy tm from intel don t you it has k of internal cache which probably is where the saved silicon real estate went because of some contract ibm is not allowed to sell its chips to third parties so these chips are unlikely to become available in any non ibm machines of course nothing prevents other companies from implementing a dx but nobody hasn t even come out with a real dx fpu and all clone yet although amd soon will segmented memory helps structure software
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	quantum prodrive at drive parameters needed hi i have got a quantum prodrive at ide harddisk and would like to format it when trying to format it no low level format just fdisk and dos format i somehow messed up the parameters i had entered fdisk mbr not exactly knowing what this does the suggested drive type formats the drive only to mb i tried type but this gives only around mb and not the nominal mb could i use user type however i don t know the actual parameters cylinders heads could someone give me them and how does fdisk work together with user type please reply by email to gerthd mvs sas com thank you thomas thomas dachsel internet gerthd mvs sas com fidonet thomas dachsel camel fido de subnet dachsel rnivh rni sub org uucp in germany now active phone work home fax snail sas institute gmbh p o box d w heidelberg tagline one bad sector can ruin a whole day
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth windows problems in article pifisinnhsr dns nmsu edu jdiers dante nmsu edu diers writes i own a stealth card from diamond when using the x x mil win driver the card and driver work but are not very fast all of the other windows drivers have a number of bugs shadows remain when windows are erased and text boxes are often unreadable all attempts to get help from diamond have failed i have called the tech support and never been able to get past the hold line a toll call in a reasonable time ie min leaving voice mail has not helped either the bbs is a joke it always has too many people on to download anything you cannot even get a file listing it considers that a download i have faxed the tech support group all this with no reponse the bottom line is if you are looking for a fast card and want to use it for windows do not get a diamond product try another vendor i wish i had while others here may have had better experiences i too share the sentiments posted above though i have the original stealth vram it is only relatively recent that the windows drivers for this card have evolved to a point of decent performance note that there are still a couple of modes i cannot use ie will not due to shadowing mis drawn check boxes etc i believe the version i have is if there s a more recent release i d appreciate if someone would drop me a note to let me know i haven t been able to get on their bbs lately to check again naturally diamond doesn t even bother notifying me of fixes releases diamond was helpful when i finally reached the right person in curing some of my windows problems due to an address conflict the conflicting addresses e e were omitted in at least my version of the diamond vram manual i hope it has been corrected by now the tech rep explained that all s based boards use these addresses i have not confirmed the validity of that statement when i upgrade my motherboard in the near future hopefully with some form of local bus i ll seek a video solution from someone other than diamond lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that is a percent sign in my network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cards on a card motherboard this may be the dumbest question of the year but is there a way to piggyback or expand a slot motherboard all bit to get the usual my case has slots for and i d like to get a scanner but with all my other cards i m already max d out i m hoping that a simple solution exists e g an adapter that turns one slot into three i don t mind if it turns it into bit slots as i can put my i o card midi card and soundblaster card there my other cards are bit ide floppy svga modem if there is such an expander does that screw up performance of everything else i d hate to buy a new motherboard carl christensen dept of computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser and curiouser lc philadelphia pa usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tape drive problems please reply via e mail since this is job related i have a colorado jumbo back up system at one of my places of employment and it has eaten two tapes by winding the tape off the spool is there an easy fix or is the tape drive fried does it simply need cleaning any and all comments will be appreciated stephen husak what am i trying to do what am i trying to say i m not trying to tell you anything you didn t know when you woke up today depeche mode nothing music for the masses stephen r husak husak ux cso uiuc edu univerisity of illinois
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway dx too noisy in article bu edu lcai acs bu edu says i just received my gateway dx mini desktop system the first thing i noticed when i plugged in the power cord is the noise that comes from the fan in fact i can hear the noise in if your gateway is equipped with a western hard drive then the noise is probably coming from there and not from the fan the western drives are notoriously noisy on the other hand if you don t have a western drive then maybe it is the fan there s not alot to do about it except insulate around the cpu somehow barry aldridge u of i chicago hour bar b q standard old disclaimer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re is mb sec hd transfer slow for dx eisa with ultrastor f in apr odin diku dk phantom diku dk haktan bulut writes hi i recently switched my old amiga with a dx my computer configuration is dx mhz kb eisa micronics motherboard asic eisa mhz mb ram st n mb harddisk scsi ultrastor f eisa cache controller when i use norton harddisk benchmark i get a harddisk data transfer about kb sec and sometimes mb sec is that good i thought that with eisa i could get about mb sec somewhere in the manual for my harddisk i have read that some host adapters need to perform a low level format to optimize the harddisk performance in that system do i need that a guy i know gets a hd transfer about mb sec and he has an st a and a isa dx how can a isa with the same system be faster is there anything that i can do to get a speedier harddisk dont rely on benchmarks they often show incorrect due to different tsr programs scsi often needs a driver to get the speed from the card make sure the card is operating in synchronus mode which is x faster you can disable disconnect and get some kb s but just to loose the mouse or other int s when diskaccesing i get mb s with dx lb and scsi lb and maxtor lxt sy coretest i get mb s sysinfo jens ejvinson nackstavagen c vii internet asyvan solace hsh se s sundsvall sweden tel act sweden fax nope advanced computer technology bbs not yet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re share your optimization tips in article apr cbfsb cb att com rmm cbnewsg cb att com richard m maniscalco writes in article pm pinnp geraldo cc utexas edu jbodnar ccwf cc utexas edu john bodnar writes according to e p unl edu edgar pearlstein here s another one my computer arrived with the following statement in its config sys file stacks i changed it to stacks and saved bytes maybe it could be lowered even more but i haven t tried it exactly regardless of what microsoft says i have set stacks on every single computer i have installed windows on from a simple sx up to dx with eisa motherboards ndi volante tiga adapters intel ethernet express cards and caching scsi controllers from dpt and dtc not a problem yet and the extra k gained means a lot with conventional memory gobbling programs like orcad and tango pcb john bodnar while we liked developing windows the university of texas at austin applications we never inhaled internet jbodnar ccwf cc utexas edu uucp cs utexas ut ccwf jbodnar borland ceo philippe kahn i remember reading somewhere qemm manual i think that stack is needed only for the windows setup program otherwise use stack rich hmmmmmm i got my comp with windows pre installed and stacks is still if it was needed only for setup wouldn t the morons take it off also i don t have the qemm manual as verything came with the comp but not the qemm manual so could anyone verify this mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray jack straw from wichita cut his buddy down dug for him a shallow grave and lay his body down gd
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help needed hello i hope somebody out here can help me i am currently working on a project where i am trying to communicate from an ibm with phoenix bios using c to a board that i made with an intel cpu with uart chip the board works fine with the transmit command and terminal emulation mode of kermit but there seems to be something wrong with the initialization or protocol used when i try c i need to access the unit i built using c because i have a sizable chunk of c code that i will be using to perform calculations and operations that will be very difficult to code in assembly language for the i have included the assembly code that i am running and the c code that i am trying to use if anyone can show me something that i am doing blatantly incorrectly or that i am missing because of my lack of knowledge about rs serial communications please e mail me i wrote the assembly language to wait for a character to be received and then to check it against the x character if a x is received the leds will indicate this two c programs that i have written do nothing but set up com port and send the x character one uses the bioscom function in bios h the other uses the software interrupt int function in dos h i have triple checked the baud rate the parity none the stop bits the character length bits and the interrupt calls for x currently i am at a loss as to what may be wrong any hardware gurus out there want to comment thanks alot hubert de jesus dejesus eniac seas upenn edu intel asm command equ h command register on porta equ h port a on timerlo equ h high bits of timer timerhi equ h low bits of timer uartdata equ e h uart data register uartcmd equ e h uart command register org h sram location mvi a h set low timer bits sta timerlo mvi a h set high timer bits sta timerhi mvi a b start timer enable port a sta command mvi a h display on segment leds sta porta mvi a h clear uart command sta uartcmd sta uartcmd sta uartcmd mvi a b internally reset uart sta uartcmd lda uartdata remove extraneous data mvi a b init uart for data bits sta uartcmd no parity stop bit x async mvi a b enable transmit and receive sta uartcmd init lda uartcmd read status register ani h is rxrdy jz init no loop lda uartdata read data character cpi is character x jnz init no loop mvi a h character received sta porta display on segment leds hlt end c using bioscom include stdio h include stdlib h include bios h define init define send define receive define status define com void main char abyte abyte xa bioscom init abyte com printf initialized comm port n while bioscom status com x abyte bioscom send abyte com printf sent start character n c using int include stdio h include stdlib h include dos h include bios h main union regs registers registers h ah x registers h al xa registers x dx x int x registers registers printf com initialized n registers h ah x registers h al x registers x dx x int x registers registers printf sent start character n
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gw and simms they are actually pin they come in and with s soon if you are interested in s or s i may be able to help please call after pm pdt i may be interested in a trade nab asan nasa it s all done with mirrors in article pq ofinne t darkstar ucsc edu banshee cats ucsc edu wailer at the gates of dawn writes in bu edu nshah acs bu edu writes i have a gateway local bus system it has slots for simms that either have to use or mb simms my question i just received a x ns simm and it has pins the slot on the motherboard has at least or so pins did i get the wrong simm or can i still use my simm although not all the pins on the slot would be flilled i have never encountered such a long slot for simms before anyone have suggestions i can t get a hold of gateway yet thanks please post to the net or nshah acs bu edu yes you got the wrong simm you need pin simms in or meg flavors the wailer at the gates of dawn banshee cats ucsc edu just who are you calling a froofroo head dod just a friend of the beast banshee ucscb ucsc edu banshee ucscb bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re warranty extension by credit company applies to the phurchase of computer in article c cv mll cup hp com staggers cup hp com ken staggers writes huayong yang yang titan ucs umass edu wrote most if not all credit card companies offer to double the warranty up to one year namely if you make a purchase by a credit card you get additional warranty up to one year does it apply to the purchase of computers i wonder if anyone out there has used it is there any catch thanks in advance i am just about to post the results of my big computer purchase one of the key points was the ability to use my american express card i read the fine print between double warranty policies of amex and citibank visa sure both will allow you double warranty on computers but citibank has a maximum claim of could you imagine trying to get your monitor or mother board fixed for amex has no limit on claims remember if you use amex you must either send a copy of the warranty info to them in days from purchase or you must call them to pre register and then send them the paperwork within days of purchase my pre register pak arrived today citibank visa requires no pre registration ken i just talked to a rep for my at t mastercard regarding this there is no maximum claim and you only have to notify them of the warranty when the item needs repair if it can t be repaired you get the amount you paid for it curiously though the at t gold mastercard has a limit of on claims definitely not upgrading to that card bryan bryan welch amateur radio n sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	eps technologies experience anyone after a rough start purchasing a system see earlier post i m trying again i m looking at the following system offered by eps technologies dx mhz w k static ram cache ami bios bit vesa local bus slots bit slots bit slot teac mb floppy drives maxtor mb hard drive ms ide w k cache buffer bit vesa local bus video card w mb ram x ni i think it s an orchid fahrenheit card ni multisync monitor x keyboard watt power supply windows mouse dos years limited warranty year on site service i m probably going to add the for a flat screen digital monitor and will also want to go for at least mb ram extra has anyone bought from eps technologies particularly a system like the one i m considering i m especially interested in their warrantee and service can anyone recommend other companies who offer similar packages with support and comparable prices i see fastmicro just bit it thanks in advance toby loftus tal brownvm tal brownvm brown edu brown university
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	looking for ad pc board this is for a friend of mine please send answers directly to him e mail adress see below highspeed analog digital pc board hello ladies and gentleman i am looking for a highspeed a d pc board with a sampling rate above mhz an a resolution of bit the sampling rate can be arranged by an interleave mode where the time equivalent sampling yields or times higher sampling rate than the a d converter uses in non interleave mode the board must content an a d converter similar to analog devices ad or ad or if available a faster on if you a pc board bit slot isa with this specification or better please send me an email hansch cdc ikph uni hannover dbp de or a telefax to thanks in advance for your help sincerely matthias hansch ikph university of hannover germany andreas heinbokel heinboke tnt uni hannover de all wisdom is print on t shirts
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	zeos vesa video changes specs as most of you know we have recently changed our standard vesa local bus video card from our own ncr based card to the new diamond stealth vlb card for packages and package still has the ncr screamer we also have added the upgrade from the stealth or ncr to the diamond viper to our product list below are the comparisons of the different cards in the configurations we will offer ncr stealth vlb viper vlb ox colors k k m k k m oox oo colors k k k k x colors x colors video processor ncr c e s c weitek power video ram m m m max ram addressable by vid processor m m m ram type dram dram vram user ram upgrade no no sockets no no sockets yes thru diamond ox refresh hz hz hz oox oo refresh hz hz hz x refresh hz hz hz oxl refresh hz hz hz pin vesa feature connector no yes no conflict with x e port addr com no yes no drivers for win yes yes yes acad yes yes yes acad no yes yes vesa yes yes yes os winnt no no no win winmarks m m m l viper vlb with m of video ram also gives oox oo m x k k and xl color s based cards since they are downward compatible will have the conflict with e diamond admits conflict will exist with the stealth the prelim viper manual incorrectly lists the s port addresses no conflict autocad drivers are now currently available for stealth speedstar x stealth vlb and viper vlb they can only be obtained from diamond tech support and not on any bbs os is supported for standard vga for all cards svga drivers available in the near future windows nt is not released yet and no drivers are available currently diamond hopes to have all current products supported in the win nt release on the nt disks ncr testing is coming from tests ran in our tech support department was at zeos at x x on zeos dx these results are not official diamond results are from their own dx x colors ohz refresh
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	please help looking for books hi netters i often have troubles with my pc and would like to fix it by myself is there any book that show you how to fix your own pc hardware monitor printer problems etc of course no book would tell you the exact problem with your pc but at least it will give a general idea what might be wrong thanks so lot for your help
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	looking for books hi netters i m looking for books that showing how to fix your own hardware problem please let me know if you have any books in mind thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re motherboard and bios in article apr news unomaha edu hkok cse kok hon yin writes can someone please tell me where can i get the best deal for micronics or ami motherboard with vl bus you can reply to me thru e mail or to this group i purchased a super voyager vlb mhz board from washburn company a month ago i don t have the mailing address clyde washburn advertises regularly in pc week he can also be reached via compuserve the phone number is i think washburn has very competitive prices compared to other ami distributers plus i liked the fact he s a ee that knows what he s talking about concerning hardware and he can be easily reached via compuserve for non critcle questions and is very informative to his customers over the phone regards dan moyer dan moyer columbiasc ncr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	needed prodesigner iis drivers could anybody please provide me a copy of the windows drivers and grabbers from orchid technologies for use with their prodesigner iis isa video card currently i do not have access to a modem to dial out to orchid bbs if you can help me please do any of the following wichever is most convenient to you copy the binary files to a directory readable by any user in any cell of the andrew file system upload the binary files to an anonymous ftp site where allowed uuencode the files and send them to me by electronic mail please notify me by electronic mail at towwang caen engin umich edu thanks in advance francisco
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modem for sale i am selling a usr hst k baud modem with v bis compression upgrades there is no manual as it was lost going from one side of the u s to the other at some point the modem is setup for max throughput and it has built in help but a quick reference guide on the bottom of it so its use it not difficult by any means any offers
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ibm value point acifuent acifuent isluga puc cl wrote hi i will change my soon and i read something about the ibm ps value point anyone have one the video card is really a bit card how much cost in u s and the last question can the ps value point sx mhz upgrade to a dx mhz thank you veeery much in advance alejandro cifuentes h acifuent isluga puc cl these questions can be answered by any dealer of ibm value points but i will provide some unsolicited advice the most amusing kind of advice today tueday ibm is supposed to officially announce the introduction of the vesa local bus value point systems these systems still have on board video and disk which are far better than the prior value point systems and you get vesa local bus for future upgrades we are going to buy three of them with monitors also a newly available and one of the three will immediately be upgraded to ultrastor f caching scsi disk controller and either the ati gup or the viper graphics board do not buy a sx sytem my personal philosophy on upgrade policy is that it is not loss free when you earn money you pay taxes when you spend money you pay taxes i e they get you coming and going translated this means take infrequent but large steps you are far better off short term and long term if you avoid the sx models and go straight to the dx or dx models gordon
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	netbios and bios hello everyone could anyone tell me where to find some information about netbios and bios interrupt calls a book or maybe an ftp site thank you in advance emilio
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re zeos vesa video changes specs in article apr zeos com root zeos com superuser writes ncr stealth vlb viper vlb ox colors k k m k k m stuff deleted video ram m m m max ram addressable by vid processor m m m just a note even though the can address megs of dram the stealth vlb can only handle meg unless diamond has a newer design or some special deal with zeos stephen lau elec engineering univ of hawaii using a friend s account while waiting for my new grad account death to fm synthesis go gus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wen monitor help does anybody have any info on this monitor or the manufacturers all help through e mail please scotty
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how much memory for wp for windows in article ps pjinndua rave larc nasa gov jka air larc nasa gov writes the documentation says that wordperfect for windows requires m of ram but when i try to install it on my laptop i get a not enough memory error message i ve unloaded everything that i possibly could but still not enough memory anyone have any ideas as to why this might be happening are you sure you re not running windows in real mode is it windows do you have a permanent swapfile built
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi help howdy sorry if this has been covered before one of my pc illiterate friends asked me to help him install drdos on his nec powermate sx sx of course i said no problem and went to work unfortunately the drdos refuses to recognize the hard drive during installation even though i am still able to boot off of the hard drive using the old dos after openning it up i discovered it was using an bit seagate scsi controller on a st n scsi mbtye drive i then booted with drdos off of the floppy a second time and ran fdisk to see if i could access the drive lo and behold the primary mbyte partition was intact created by dos no less i didn t think you could go over a mbyte partition in the older doses i could be wrong i then tried to remove the primary partition which it wouldn t allow me to do i am unaware of anything special that has to be done with a scsi drive i kinda expected it to work just like an ide mfm rll drive for dos installations any suggestions would be greatly appreciated except for throw it in the garbage and buy a new pc thanks in advance paul mr scsi not fincke
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrade sx to dx i m thinking of splashing out on a new motherboard for my pc i am running linux as my main os with a small dos partition left for my flatmates games my current setup is a sx amd with sx itt i think and mbytes of ns simms and mbyte ide basically i have two choices get a dx dx or get some sort of unfortunately i live in the uk where computer prices are far too high the first option works out at about pounds m boards start at this price for a sx i have a couple of questions how much of an improvement in speed should i notice if i get a dx copro remember i m using a bit os and alot of floating point operations how much faster would a dx be than the dx copro should i get an upgradeable m board with a dx and wait for amd pentium price pressure to reduce the costs of the any experiences will be most helpful kenny ps example prices dx copro m board dx m board kenneth macdonald e mail kenny castle ed ac uk dept of geology geophysics university of edinburgh scotland
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	boot problem with ide controller hi i ve got a multi i o card ide controller serial parallel interface and two floppy drives and a quantum prodrive at connected to it i was able to format the hard disk but i could not boot from it i can boot from drive a which disk drive does not matter but if i remove the disk from drive a and press the reset switch the led of drive a continues to glow and the hard disk is not accessed at all i guess this must be a problem of either the multi i o card or floppy disk drive settings jumper configuration does someone have any hint what could be the reason for it please reply by email to gerthd mvs sas com thanks thomas thomas dachsel internet gerthd mvs sas com fidonet thomas dachsel camel fido de subnet dachsel rnivh rni sub org uucp in germany now active phone work home fax snail sas institute gmbh p o box d w heidelberg tagline one bad sector can ruin a whole day
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	floppy file copying a silly question i frequently edit small files and need to make copies of them on several floppy diskettes of the same size and format but my computer is only equipped with one hd drive and one hd drive can t i do the copying without swapping files temporarily to my hard disk which is full using standard msdos commands i know diskcopy a a works but for small selections of files xcopy a txt a does not maybe i ll have to write my own file copy command in c but the idea does not amuse me thanks for your help francisco
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	needed large fast backup utility i m looking for a better method to back up files currently using a maynstream q that uses dc tapes i will need to have a capacity of mb to gb for future backups only dos files i would be very appreciative of information about backup devices or manufacturers of these products flopticals dat tape anything if possible please include price backup speed manufacturer phone and opinions about the quality reliability please e mail i ll send summaries to those interested thanx in advance claus schwinge sunyab student finances and records
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos interlink jka air larc nasa gov j keith alston writes hi does anyone know what type of cabling is required to use the interlink capability provided in dos i tried a null modem cable and had two copies of procomm talking happily to one another but interlink kept saying no connection made i gave up and used floppies
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx in article apr aio jsc nasa gov mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes in article apr kpc com pcarmack gimp kpc com phil carmack writes there are people who are performance driven enough to do it if it weren t so people wouldn t buy pentium tm systems in the first place since they could buy a dx that would run their existing applications faster certainly a dx is in the same league as a pentium tm is the dx anything more than a myth i haven t heard of it from any source that i trust and i sure don t see any ads for dx machines in computer shopper intel is pretty busy with the pentium right now i can t seem them introducing their own competition ibm has displayed a dx as a technology demo this effectivly means here s some neat technology it is not a commitment to make such an item keith mancus mancus butch jsc nasa gov n wvr mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov black powder and alcohol when your states and cities fall when your back s against the wall leslie fish guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	local dealer service was the infamous gateway video monitor problem info requested in article gks psuvm psu edu greg spath gks psuvm psu edu writes in article c ueom evf odin corp sgi com mikey sgi com mike yang says so by going mailorder through gateway i save plus i get technical support over the phone free software package have fun trying to get hold of technical support over the phone at least locally you can walk right up to the dealer and tell him what is wrong and he has to fix it how long does he have to take in fixing it does he have to use new parts when he repairs it or can he substitute used parts without your knowledge can he charge you for repairs that should be under warranty but he claims are due to improper maintenance on your part when it comes to local dealers have fun getting consistently good support most of their techs are re treaded salesmen not trained technicians with a high turnover rate have fun getting in warranty work done quickly and courteously have fun getting out of warranty work done cheaply or even done period unless you are on a paid service contract having been both a service technician and a service manager at a computerland franchise and another retail computer place i know what i m talking about i also know the local service scam that retail computer dealers like to push when they re selling it s that same old song that car dealers having been singing for years buy from me and you ll get good service we always treat our customers right buy from my competition and you ll be sorry if you need service experienced mail order buyers know that there are some mail order companies that give excellent service including overnight replacement parts on site calls etc there are probably some local dealers that can give you good service too but if you think all local dealers give consistenly good service you are wrong i have many anectdotes to prove my point but i m sure there are others on the net can do a better job than i can ted drude tbdrude infonode ingr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway uart chip in article spiroc bssw drq netcom com spiro netcom com philip n spiro writes george a theall theall gdalsrv sas upenn edu wrote in article dickyjc b h bmt netcom com dickyj netcom com dicky johan writes it seems that there are using the uart chip in the machine is that the same as the uart chip which has a bytes buffer no it s not according to the sales critter i spoke with last week though gateway does use socketed chips you should be able to find the afn for about and upgrade the chip yourself minor nuisance for whatever it s worth my gw salesman said that their would do kbps and was soldered to the board will someone with a recent gw pls settle this by inspection phil phil spiro spiro netcom com mine has a sodered right on the card why would you need the anyway from what i ve heard when you re multitasking its fifo buffer keeps you from loosing data is this right bryan luff math comp sci cal u of pa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	genius mouse driver hello fellow netlanders i have a genius mouse model gm but no driver for it it s a button mouse if anyone that s got one of theese could mail me a driver config sys or autoexec bat i would be very happy staffan ungsgard internet telesoft norden ab staffan ungsgard nynashamn telesoft se utsiktsvagen phone nynashamn sweden fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	application errors on win h e l p i have a problem in which i m getting increasing frustrated every day some background about my pc american megatrend bios clone sx with m of ram config sys file device c dos himem sys dos high umb device c windows emm exe noems files buffers stack autoexec bat file is using smartdrv exe c cmos set up is running wait state on read and write cache ram the problem application error from win i started off with a newly installed win and then installed excel run excel no problem a permanent swap file of size k was in place for windows ok i then proceed to install norton desktop for windows version no problem with the installation i also allow ndw to alter my autoexec bat with the nav running on c the problem came when i try to bring up excel or if excel is running and right in the middle of it like click a selection with the mouse from the desktop first of all i always get the application error screen followed by another application error screen with various different messages the following are some of them stack fault by tc drv at address xxxx where xxxx is some number tc drv is the vga driver provided by the manufacture general protection fault by ndw exe at the same address segment load failure by ndw exe at same address some how the address flagged was always something what is address xxxx means i have absolutely on idea what this mean i tried commented out the tsr programs from autoexec bat no help is it something to do with the emm setup which is not telling win what it suppose to know looks like the application is crossing memory boundary when it is being loaded or while it is running please reply if you have any idea or suggestion i m willing to try anything steve chu at t bell labs holmdel nj
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re summary information on pc s local bus specification in article apr inesc pt jma ingrina writes stuff deleted pci intel bus its not completely defined yet some people think of it as a long term solution larger fanout not so cheap complex chipset a friend who owns a company that builds clones shared with me the fact that the pci chipset is not expensive how about many money hungry clone makers no doubt will attempt to price the boards high only because it s new technology lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that is a percent sign in my network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx in article apr kub nl volkert kub nl volkert writes anonymous i saw a posting about the choice between dx and a dx i was wondering although a dx is faster because of the path to it s external cache shouldn t the choice be the dx as that one can be made to work properly with a local bus i mean cache speed is one thing but all your speed will be blocked during video i o so just get that faster i m willing to speculate that the dx with local bus will be times as fast as the dx and probably as expensive or cheap technically there is no reason why a chip set cannot support a dx and a mhz local bus i m waiting for the mezzianine sp vl bus that will be decoupled from the main cpu clock and allow for many more slots due to the user of buffers this will allow the use of ever faster cpus with the same standard i o cards until the next buss spec regards jv name j v meuldijk o o address gildelaar hw teteringen holland e mail volkert kub nl oooo oooo guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tangent computer eisa lb system has anyone here dealt with tangent i m looking at an system they have that has an eisa backplane with a vesa slot for video the scsi contoller they use is made by aorta i ve never heard of this brand can anyone comment on tangent or the controller thanks david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re simm speed in article apr news unomaha edu hkok cse kok hon yin writes robert desonia robert desonia hal k ann arbor mi us wrote b bk is it possible to plug in ns or ns simms into a motherboard saying bk wants ns simms you shouldn t have troubles i have heard of machines having problems with slower than recommended memory speeds but never faster it should run without any trouble of course but why do you want to buy some ns and mixed them with ns ns is more expensive than ns and furthermore your machine will run the slowest simms clock speed eventhough you have ns just my cents thought your machine will run at whatever the bus is jumpered to cmos is set to usually wait states regardless of what speed ram is installed no motherboard can sense the speed of the ram installed unless you call failing as a sort of auto sense this is how you can sometimes use slower ram in a machine you either set the number of wait states to accomodate the slow ram in which case all memory will run at that slower rate or you reduce the wait states and take the chance that the slower ram will act like faster ram and you won t crash putting faster ram in won t speed things up unless you tell the machine it has faster ram mixing fast and slow ram will not help you if you have to keep the bus slowed down to accomodate slow ram jiml mailer address is buggy reply to jiml strauss ftcollinsco ncr com james lewczyk x ncr mpd fort collins co jim lewczyk ftcollinsco ncr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re tape drive problems in article ux cso uiuc edu husak ux cso uiuc edu stephen r husak writes please reply via e mail since this is job related i have a colorado jumbo back up system at one of my places of employment and it has eaten two tapes by winding the tape off the spool is there an easy fix or is the tape drive fried does it simply need cleaning any and all comments will be appreciated stephen husak what am i trying to do what am i trying to say i m not trying to tell you anything you didn t know when you woke up today depeche mode nothing music for the masses stephen r husak husak ux cso uiuc edu univerisity of illinois does it do it to all tapes were the two tapes that it unwound of the same type from the same batch the reason i ask is that i bought some generic tapes that did this and found that the tape markers were not fully punched out and had closed the little marker hole it was only on a few tapes of a set did you open up the tape cartridge and put the tape back on the reels if you have not yet open it up by removing the two screws on the bottom of the tape cartridge and snap the plastic shell away from the metal base as you are pulling the tape through the assembly try not to touch any more than you have to as you are doing it look for a couple of little holes in the tape these are the marker holes which let the tape drive know when it is at the end of the tape the holes are spaced a couple of inches apart my best guess is that the drive finds the first marker and then stops on the second marker anyhow if the tape has the holes then check to see if the mirror on the tape is clean the function of the mirror is to detect the marker holes the tape drive shines a light at the mirror and has a pickup in the area where the reflection would come out when the hole goes by the pickup detects the light that was allowed to pass and it knows when to stop if the mirror is dirty or out of alighment unlikely since it is made into the case you might have a problem detecting the end of the tape if the tape drive does it on all tapes and the tapes all look good then either the pickup or the led of the sensor system has failed or is dirty if you open the drive door you will see the sensor assembly to the left of the r w head assembly if it looks clean and nothing is in its way then the drive may need to be serviced it is possible that the led is burned out or the sensor is out if it is still in warranty you might be able to send it back to cms for repair scott hiles whiles relay nswc navy mil standard disclaimer the opinions expressed are those of my own and do not necessarily reflect those of the dod or the navy i accept full responsibility
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what is a rapid tech squeeze card hi i am going through a box of old ibm card and came across one called a rapid technology squeeze card it is dated and has a mhz crystal on it and a big chip that has c cube on it no connectors to the outside but a ribbon type pin connector on the board it is a bit board any ideas what it is phil phil hunt wherever you go there you are howtek inc internet phil howtek mv com uucp decvax harvard mv howtek phil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx in article iisakkil apr lk hp hut fi iisakkil lk hp hut fi mika iisakkila wrote because of some contract ibm is not allowed to sell its chips to third parties so these chips are unlikely to become available in any non ibm machines i saw in this months pc or pc world an ad for computers using ibm s slc so i don t think ibm is restricted in selling their chips at least not anymore a clock tripled even without coprocessor would be great especially with k on board cache make it pin compatible and you have the chip upgrade that dreams are made of taka mizutani takaharu mail sas upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re problem with maxtor mb ide drive first of all thanks to those of you who responded both here and via e mail the tips didn t pan out but it was good hearing from you now following up to my earlier post disk controller acculogic side hard floppy ide controller jumpers all defaulted shown as normal irq delayed irq primary secondary floppy address single dual speed floppy primary secondary ide address precomp ns ns iochrdy not driven ide drive controls iochrdy other cards didn t check brand serial parallel adapter logitech bus mouse adapter roland mpu compatible midi interface configured with default irq mem address i opened up the box and removed all the other cards above no help there then not having anything better to try i changed normal irq to delayed irq on the disk controller didn t make any difference and iochrdy not driven to ide drive controls iochrdy also had no effect so i put everything back to the way it was and re installed the cards i then unplugged the floppy drive cable from the disk controller voila the pc booted from power up although it seemed to take several seconds before the first access to the hard disk plug the floppy cable back to the controller and the original non boot behavior returns o k with this additional information does anyone in netland have any words of wisdom for what s going on and how i should deal with it larry still un plugging away byler
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos board with ports i m posting this for a friend that runs a bbs i m not sure if its under dos or windows he is interested in a board that has ports on it in another post someone suggeted a digiboard but didn t have too much info on it could someone give me information on any boards that they know of with the before mentioned configuration models specifications prices manufacturers thanks rob robert walker walker cs umn edu computer science dept university of minnesota
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re mb isa limit marka ssd csd harris com mark ashley writes in the latest pc magazine pentium isssue there is an editorial on the advantages of a pc using eise vesa lb rather than just plain isa vesa lb supposedly users will eventually want more than mb of ram however since the isa bus has only bits then anything on the bus can access only mb even if i have mb on the motherboard so far i agree with the arguments then the writer claims that glitches can occur in systems with over mb because of that limit that part i don t understand because the ram is right on the motherboard so the cpu should have no problems talking with the ram can anybody explain this the problem is with isa bus masters which can only address the first mbs of system memory bus masters do not use the cpu nor the system dma to do the actual data transfer but transfer their data directly to the system ram rp roger c pao gordius bagdad pride mts rpao rpao mts mivj ca us
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hard disk question hi i just disassembled my old xt and get disk drives m hard drive and a k floppy drive my questions are can i use these drives as drives d e on my sx this sx currently has m hard drive m m floppy drives if i can what s w or h w do i need please send your advice comments to aovai qube ocunix on ca thanks a lot av via dlg pro v
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re pc x to following up my own note ted richards ted isgtec com wrote al devilbiss al col hp com wrote it looks like everything works as advertised but i am disappointed with the speed i m using an intel internal k modem in the pc with telebit k on the unix end which are currently limited to kbits by the unix com link to get a quantitative comparison i did cat file where file is kbyte uncompressed ascii text and it took seconds to scroll through an x window over the modem link chars sec using the identical hardware and procomm fw the same cat file takes seconds chars sec btw i use ncd pc xview on my pc at work hp every day for the same unix access from a pc over a lan and like that just fine the same cat file scrolls by in seconds on the lan connection i just tried a few experiments i cat d a byte file lines under various scenarios pc xview for dos in a full screen os window x x sec telix dos in an os window xs x sec telix dos is a full screen os window standard vga sec telix dos in a windows window x x sec uw win in a seamless os window x x gave up after min uw win in windows x x faster but gave up after min uw win in a seamless os window using pg sec could have been a little faster i had to keep hitting the space bar i was using an ati wonder xl video card by the way so pc xview for dos looks pretty good and the line by line scrolling in os desktop looks pathetic although full page redraws are pretty good i tried it under pc xview using my normal x bold or x font and with a very small font and there was no difference in the times the modem receive light was on pretty solidly so it looks like the bottleneck was the baud modem not the screen drawing ted richards ted isgtec com uunet ca isgtec ted isg technologies inc airport rd mississauga ont canada l v s
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ram boards on a hello i have a sx isa machine with pheonix bios currently i have megabytes of ram installed via eight mg simms on the motherboard ie both banks are full and there is no space for more simms i am thinking of running os on my machine and possibly linux with x windows and i know that more ram would be helpful however with simms the only solution i can see is to sell my megs for about and by mg simms for about used apart from the fact that i can t afford the price right now the entire process of selling ram and buying it used probably means that the machine might be down for a number of days which i would rather avoid so my question is do the at ram boards that plug into a free slot work well with a isa machine i have seen some being sold used for about with mg with space for another mg s if these boards do work how do they do it is a device driver needed or will the bios pickup the extra ram as it does with the simms on the mother board i know that the isa expansions slots are bits and simm memory is bits so probably all of this is just wishful thinking however any help is truly appreciated eric ebosco us oracle com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help my hard drive id messed dave david c cat uucp wrote vazzag vccnw its rpi edu gregory anthony vazzana writes howdy the other day i was using norton s speeddisk to optimize my seagate mb h problem persisted i backed up all essential data and decided to reformat my hard drive when i attempted this it got to the th clylinder th head and gave me an error message saying that it could not find the sector i have tried everything i can think of now i can t even access my hard driv to write information to it i tried to boot up with my ms dos disks but ms d tries to reformat my hard drive and gets of the way through to say error formatting hard drive press f to exit i tried to scan my hard drive for viruses but i can t access it and i get a message when i try to do a dir saying error int can anyone help me i have no idea what to do thanks in advance for any help greg try a bios level format via the debug command g xxxx where xxxx is the hex address of the hd controller bios location if this will not work a last resort would be to take a large magnet to the hard disk but this has to be done properly or you will cause or could cause more damage than has been done already disclaimer i am not responsible for your actions by directly applying a large magnet to your hard disk if done correctly the magnet trick will wipe out everything on the hard disk completely and a low level bios format might succeed david china cat bbs c cat david sed csc com n uunet mimsy anagld c cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	laserjet iv upgrades to dpi opinions what are the current products available to upgrade the resolution which ones support postscript any experiences with them either good or bad is the quality difference really noticable i m planning on producing camera ready copy of homes will the higher resolution be noticed for these
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re why vesa local bus in article apr cc umontreal ca gregof jsp umontreal ca grego filippo writes hi fellow netters i have a question for you i am gonna buy a dx mhz with vesa local bus is the speed benefit that great would it be wise to spend on a local bus system hd controller and graphic card for normal use i mean i won t use it for a server also i read an article from someone sorry i can t remember your name and he said that even though you have a local bus hard disk controller your performances won t be that much greater because of the disk s throughtput so what is the use of having a fast bus if the peripherals can t cope with it something to bear in mind is what the v in vlb stands for v for video the origional intention of the bus was to speed up the bus so that large memory to memory transfers would be faster this is espically useful in transfering data from main memory to video memory since there are usually vlb slots card makers have been making cards to fit in the other two how about an vlb ethernet card move the data into the card at odd mb s and then wait for it to tickle onto the net at just over mb s do do however free the local bus for other cards some times you need fast busses and sometimes you don t thank you gregof jsp umontreal ca guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re another happy gateway owner in article apr infonode ingr com kbputt infonode ingr com ken putt writes don t they always of course they re so much more expensive than most other quality competitors like who f rinstance when i bought my system november no first second or third tier vendor could touch the price for the hardware software combination i got from gw another good thing i have read in the midst of all the gateway horror stories if you were selling as many systems as fast as gw you d end up with four or five pissed off customers too and four or five ecstatic ones and lots of satisfied ones they have an excellent return policy don t minimize this if you buy mail order it s a good thing to know that you ll get replacements parts no questions asked in a day or two via fedex they re very impressive systems when they work which they do in the vast majority of cases remember that it s only the people on the tails of the curve who are motivated to write the ones who love it and the ones who hate it you don t hear from the folks in the middle very often they have rough edges no doubt about it but they give good value per dollar and use almost all top quality components
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos in article eastman uucp lrxi icts kodak com james nonnemacher writes is there enough experience out in netland with dos that anyone could make some comments on whether or not it s a worthwhile upgrade any problems with hardware compatibility or any bugs been found one thing i wonder about is the disk doubler included with dos is there any possiblity that if the disk double exe file gets corrupted your disk would be unreadable how would one recover from such an event the file that would be a problem is dblspace bin not exe arf ooo ooo bill burge burge qdeck com and his dog spot problem resolution prevention bbs n quarterdeck office systems fax qfax tech support support qdeck com this is an automated request gen l info info qdeck com fax system call it from the compuserve go quarterdeck handset on your fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes this doesn t answer the original question is os a multi user os and no mention was made of an ether card either but from a disk data point of view why does scsi have an advantage when it comes to multi tasking data is data and it could be anywhere on the drive can scsi find it faster can it get it off the drive and into the computer faster does it have a better cache system i thought scsi was good at managing a data bus when multiple devices are attached if we are only talking about a single drive explain why scsi is inherently faster at managing data from a hard drive you are making the same mistake i did you are confusing the drive interface to the data throughput interface again from my mac ibm info sheet available by ftp on sumex aim stanford edu in the info mac report as mac ibm compare txt expansion both mac ibm scsi only external device expansion interface common to both mac and ibm allows the use of any device hard drive printer scanner nubus card expansion mac plus only some monitors and cd rom apple developed some specifications for scsi controlers while ibm has no exact controller specifications which results in added incompatibilities on ibm machines main problem there are a lot of external devices which are internal terminated which causes problems for more then two devises off the scsi port a scsi chain is supposed to be terminated only at the begining and at the end any other set up causes problems for either mac or ibm scsi devices per scsi controller bit asynchronous mb s ave and synchronous mb s max transfer base bit scsi requires a scsi controler chip and can provide only fast scsi not wide scsi which are both bit interfaces see scsi scsi devices per scsi controller in scsi mode scsi is fully scsi complient and tends to be implimented as a very fast scsi since it needs a different controller interface in both hardware which tends to be very expendsive and software transfer speeds are mb s with mb s burst bit mb s with mb s burst bit and mb s with mb s burst bit wide and fast scsi in scsi mode is limited to devices and reduced bit or bit fast only throughput due to the difference between scsi and wide scsi ports ibm hd interfaces limited to hard drives by design or lack of development ide integrated device electronics currently the most common standard and is mainly used for medium sized drives can have more than one hard drive asynchronous transfer mb s max so at its lowest setting scsi interface in asynchronous scsi mode averages the through put maximum of ide in asynchronous mode in full scsi mode it blows poor ide out the window down the street and into the garbage can the problem becomes can the drive mechanisim keep up with those through put rates and that is where the bottleneck and cost of scsi comes from not the interface itself but more and more from drive mechanisims to use the scsi through put the cost of scsi interface is a self fulliling prophisy few people buy scsi because it is so expencive for the pc which in turn convices makes that mass producing scsi which would reduce its cost is unwarented and so scsi is expencive that is the effect of the rule of scale the more items sold the less each item has to bare the brunt the cost of manufacture and so the less each item has to cost scsi allows a drive mechanisims through put to be limited by the drive while ide itself limits the through put
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re memory slot problem in article qiijs t bigboote wpi edu ralf wpi wpi edu ralph valentino writes i finally decided to upgrade my eisa s memory from meg to meg two months after the parts warranty ran out on the anigma motherboard two months too late it seems there s a problem with one or both of the two m mx bit sim slots in bank b on boot i get a pattern test failure at address xa and the system deconfigures the top meg the sims are good i tried rotating all of them into bank a on one of the configurations however the pattern test deletions failed at x in all tests the pattern that appeared was the same as the pattern if no sim was in place this leads me to believe the one or two of the connector address pins are at fault and with a lot of luck might be patchable ralph ralph valentino ralf chpc org ralf wpi wpi edu hardware engineer worcester polytechnic institute center for high performance computing marlborough ma many motherboards have jumpers to enable disable the memory banks did you check that out allen mulvey mulvey blurt oswego edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	please help with purchasing a the last time i was in microprocessor lab was in using z so i don t know a lot of buzz terms in pc hardware now i need to purchase a help me to ask the right questions motherboard i need with mb ram with additonal slot for more mb i would like to get two vesa local bus one for video not sure what am i going to do with the other it must be able to run unix what are other questions that i should ask to ensure getting a quality stuff what are other important features monitor i want a non interlaced svga but not sure about what brand to get i can t afford nec or sony what brands should i consider acer touch what else should i ask video card i would like to run framemaker so i need a fast video card is western digital worth the over cirrus logic do i need more than m of v ram one company wanted more for a local bus video card is this normal hard drive segate western digital conner all have the same price which one is more liable which one has better performace case power supply given the choise of desktop and minitower which one is better what is the adequate power supply is cooling a general problem or a non issue what features should i ask for did i miss anything i am sure that there are a lot of semi pc literates reading this group your help is greatly appreciated jason chen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re why vesa local bus guyd austin ibm com guy dawson writes how about an vlb ethernet card move the data into the card at odd mb s and then wait for it to tickle onto the net at just over mb s how about mb s for bit vlb or mb s for quickring apple s implimentation of vlb byte quickring is interesting in that it allows interleaving with other card so that the mb s can be divided among many cards at the same time nubus and mca are about the only card interfaces able to do anything with that kind of speed and even nubus ditzes around at mb s with a burst mode mb s mca also called micro channel ibm s and bit bus allows use of more than one cpu in a computer dct and anything can talk to anything as fast as the two components involved can handle it never took off because it was incompatible with isa and eisa planned to be bus interface of ibm powerpc carl jabido ida can t handle vlb speed never mind quickrings s speed so it is out eisa pokes along at nubus mac ii speeds mb s burst mode mb s so vlb and quickring are slowed down by it pci is a competing interface that is still in development
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re isa to eisa in article apr envmsa eas asu edu firman envmsa eas asu edu b b s writes in article casey apr grace wharton upenn edu casey grace wharton upenn edu shawn casey writes hello i have a question for anyone that may be familiar with isa and eisa sytem configurations after i switch the isa boards into the eisa board all of the cards are isa the system seems to work with no problem what so ever but some of the interupt problems that we had with the isa board continue with the eisa board is it my understanding that the eisa board should be able to handle irq conficts when running windows problem when running our network via telnet tcp ip with windows running the system kicks us out of windows irq confict within windows i assume also are there any memory address problems that will happen when the boards are switched base memory that is as far as i know if you are using eisa mother board you have to use also eisa cards or else your computer system will be slower than when you re using isa board with isa cards bill that s nonsense you can use isa cards in an eisa system without problem and at the same speed as in an isa system luke
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re original ibm pc specs in article apr ucbeh san uc edu hoffmamc ucbeh san uc edu writes a hard drive with xt type controller can be added but i recommend not trying a full height hard drive as i have run into trouble with the w supply not having the oomph to spool up those big heavy platters one way to get the system going with one floppy drive and one hard disk on a watt power supply is to first disconnect the power from the floppy drive than turn on the pc you will notice the hard drive having a real difficult time getting up to speed but it manages when booting is finished plug in your floppy drive now it will work ok i know this is not very user friendly maybe you are better off buying a with watt power supply or something like that willem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re fd controller question in article apr nwnexus wa com paulf halcyon com marlboro man writes i am looking for a way to access the floppy drive at the i o level that is lower than the bios given the port assignments what controller chip spec sheet do i need info on my floppy is a m and i would also like to be able to write code that works on k disks as well also with the method of access is it possible to actually read the individual bytes on the track as they stream into the controller i m afraid the sector handling is done purely through hardware if on the off chance i can get this basic on the access anything to point me in the right direction would help a lot there is a file out there look for it with archie that is called theref zip which has lots of info on various pc things amongst which is also a detailed description of all floppy controller commands i think hard drive controller commands are not there it is possible to read an entire track including all gaps sector headers etc by setting sector size to something very large like k willem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re adding hard drive to original ibm pc in article c dxbs ov panix com schuster panix com michael schuster writes in article lsj ruinnl o saltillo cs utexas edu goolsbey cs utexas edu keith goolsbey writes i have an original ibm pc not an xt or at that has never had a hard drive questions do i need new bios to add a hard drive does anyone sell a complete package to do this please e mail me with suggestions i only need to add about a meg or meg hard drive sent by mail too you need the bios which has support for rom bios extensions such as the rom on a hard disk controller a mb hard card available for not much over will do the trick if you have the proper bios date use norton si or similar program to find out you also need to set the correct switch settings on your xt controller which can be a pain since most pc s don t come with proper docs for all hardware contained inside it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	western digital hd info needed i was recently loaned an older dec at work and i have the option of adding an additional western digital hard drive to the machine the existing drive is currently a western digital as well and is working fine but i do not have any documentation available for configuring the master slave relationship necessary for a c d drive setup the first drive is currently formatted to tandy dos v but i am eventually going to upgrade both to ms dos v the drives themselves are both model number wd a circa they are cyl head drives a note to add is that there is no exact configuration for these in my current bios but it seems to work at a setting cyl head write pre landing zone there are three pairs of jumper pins on the back that i presume are for setting up the master slave originally the drive in the machine had none currently i was suggested to try the far right looking at the back for master and the middle jumper for the slave when booted the reinitialize seems to puke accessing the d drive it does flicker about three times on the second drive but then gives the error hopefully the problem is as simple as the drive not being formatted but not being a person who has ever had to actual format and unformatted drive i would not even know how to do that any and all help on this is great fully appreciated if not a number for western digital might just do as good swood hunting over in michigan don t despair no closed season on opossum porcupine weasel red squirrel skunk starlings feral pigeons english sparrows ground squirrel woodchuck anyway trout season opens the last saturday this month
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx in article qd bcinnmep golem wcc govt nz hamilton golem wcc govt nz michael hamilton writes do you really need to switch to a dx instead of a dx as i understand it dx s can have local bus devices on the mother board but not local bus slots and according to what i been told many systems go beyond the vesa local bus standard in order to provide dx systems with a local bus slot capability i have definitly seen a mother board with local bus slots which claimed to be able to support any cpu including the dx and dx can someone throw some more informed light on this issue you will need to check with peripheral makers to see if their boards will work at mhz some will with some motherboards tony catone compstat wharton upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re do i need intelligent serial i o bill writes no buy the serial port and modem each can be used for other things you can use the modem with your next computer might not be a pc or upgrade the modem without changing the box i hear that isdn is big in europe you might be able to get one of those beautiful isdn modems for less than the pice of a car someday k bidirectional bill davidsen ge corp r d center box schenectady ny unfortunately the curent united states standard on isdn is kbit but i suppose whats kbit c kup from aka christopher kuperman the holistic systems consultant email zork yoyo cc monash edu au giv a man a fish he ll eat for a day teach him how to fish he ll eat for ever
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what s the difference between pin and pin simms hi can anyone tell me the difference between pin and pin simms i wish to get detailed information about the origin of these two different types of simms preferably a magazine review aricle by the way if there is a faq for this group which covers the simms information please also direct me to it any help information would be very much appreciated sincerely yu jen wu dept of ee univ of maryland yjwu eng umd eu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re sun cd rom on pcs in article apr c p novell de pbartok c p novell de peter d bartok writes great but don t let your effort and talent be un noticed put the program on the net upload it to some anonymous ftp sites so people at least me can have it and appreciate it please put it into ftp novell de pub incoming pc ok the small programme that can be used to switch a suncd drive into bytes block mode for use with msdos adaptec apsi it now available by ftp from ftp novell de pub pc adaptec cdblksize zip juergen keil jk tools de uunet mcsun unido tools jk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sorry another gateway posting i never thought i d contribute to a gateway thread either pro or con but my spleen could use a little venting the scenario ordered a dx w ultrastor f local bus hd controller receive system days after ordering happy discover ultrastor f isa hd controller inside unhappy call gateway receive the correct controller in days getting happier new controller doesn t work unhappy again call gateway again get another controller in more days cooling off the end is in sight this controller doesn t work either motherboard is bad very unhappy gateway s solution they will order me a new motherboard more days and have on site service install it for me but i have to take a day off of work because the service people only work m f i say no way i ve already blown about hours with this about of them on hold and i don t have the time or to take a day off work also my day return period is almost over and i ve only been able to use the thin for about minutes so the whole thing is going back i was extremely upset when i began this post because the support rep told me that i would have to pay shipping not only for the returned system but also the two hard drive controllers they had sent me fortunately i just spoke to customer service and they are going to have ups come and pick everything up gratis the only downside is that now i have to order another computer i would really like to try gateway again i m just very turned off by the prospect of having to try and get through to customer service or tech support again i think their products are great for the most part but i m beginning to wonder if the savings are worth the potential aggravation are other mail order companies as difficult to contact i know gateway is booming and for good reason but i don t know if i can take it again oh well i feel better now mark devaney hear me now and believe me later georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia internet markd cc gatech edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	adaptec a problem hello i have recently suffered from various problems concerning an adaptec a controller problem floppy disk drive doesn t work there s apparently at least two jumpers on the controller that affect the floppy disk drive unfortunately i have located only one of them in the lower front corner i would like to know if there are any other such jumpers and possibly where they are located problem my hard disks refuse to boot with my two scsi hd s rodime miniscribe i get a message missing operating system even though the disks have been formatted with the same controller and they damn sure have an operating system on them if i boot from a quantum i might get as far as getting the ms dos version information this might of course be due to incombatible memory drivers are there any jumpers that could affect the hd causing such errors thanks in advance jouni jouni marttila yo kyl b turku finland jmarttila abo fi jmarttila finabo abovax jmarttila jjmartti utu fi pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo fi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tape backup question hello folks i have an archive xl internal qic tape drive which is pretty comparable to the colorado jumbo since i have two floppy drives in my system i m using a small card not accelerated made by archive to attach my tape drive as a third floppy device the problem although the dos based qicstream software works just fine both the norton and central point backup programs for windows fail unless i switch the machine to non turbo speed i m using a dx eisa since the dos software works it can t be a hardware problem can it has anyone seen similar problems any solutions thanks in advance jerry j shekhel molecular simulations inc time just fades the pages drummers do it burlington ma usa in my book of memories in rhythm jerry msi com guns n roses
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re new cd rom for gateways and misc info terry clark tclark news weeg uiowa edu wrote the upgrade to a nanao i is now this monitor will handle x at a vertical refresh of hz not according to nanao the i will not do better than hz at x btw gateway told me the same thing phil phil spiro spiro netcom com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	recommendations for a local bus cached ide controller hi i would like to hear the net wisdom and net opinions on ide controllers i would liek to get a ide controller card for my vlb dx motherboard what are good options for this preferably under it must also work under os and be compatible with stacker and other disk compression s w please advise divya divya live long and then die a slow and horrible death what confucius wanted to say
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tape backup for windows i m looking for a complete hw sw solution i need an isa vlb scsi controller e g ultrastor f plus a tape drive mb or less like archive plus a windows program that will work on these my intended system will have mb ram so plain isa controllers will no longer do but i also hear that the scsi world is not very organized so does anybody have a tape backup setup like what i m looking for please describe it thanks e mail please marka gcx ssd csd harris com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	refresh rates of nec fgx can someone tell me the maximum horizontal and vertical refresh rates of the nec fgx not the fge thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ftp problem on gateway dx we have a gateway dx with a smc elite series ethercard plus when we use ncsa ftp to send from the gateway with hash turned on we see hash marks immediately then the computer r e a l l y drags if we turn off the internal cache of the the speed is better but doesn t match the speed when we receive to the gateway it doesn t matter if we send from the gateway or get to it hash marks and then extreme slowness if the cache is not disabled does anyone know any more about this is there a fix the gateway was purchased in june please respond directly you wouldn t believe how slow the news is on this system thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings in article qjv t bogus sura net vargish bogus sura net nicholas vargish writes a soundblater sb card is supposed to share irq with lpt parallel printer interface and in general this scheme works well however sometimes there are conflicts it seemed to depend on the software more than anything else origin games are especially bitchy about having the whole interrupt to themselves my solution was to switch the interrupt to irq which is unreserved in contemporary computers using irq for the drives went out with the xt architechture don t put the sb in irq if you have an xt get a new computer instead this irq has been completely stable for me and i use my sb to play mods and wavs under linux a free un x for or better pc architecture machines with no problems as well as games under dos i also use irq but there is one disadvantage some games assume that the board is using irq and have no way to adjust this setting i had trouble with some of the lucas films games peter geltner administrative dean of computing santa monica college santa monica california
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	references needed on memory management i am doing a report on the topic of advanced memory management and need to know of some good references to cover this topic it is an analytical chemistry class on instrumental analysis so as you could guess it doesn t have to be an extremely thorough or extensive covering of the topic also i am a chemical engineer and know some but not too much about memory management if anyone could help point me in a good direction i would be very thankful thanks in advance joe bleazard gt b hydra gatech edu school of chemical engineering georgia institute of technology atlanta ga
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re pc x in article isgtec isgtec com ted isgtec com ted richards writes al devilbiss al col hp com wrote i just brought up ncd s pc xview windows version to use over a modem link to a unix system at hp installation is easy but you need a program also from ncd called xremote to run on the unix host total software cost for one seat was anyone here know if ncd is doing educational pricing on these software packages for those of us strapped for cash thanks eugene s ted richards ted isgtec com uunet ca isgtec ted isg technologies inc airport rd mississauga ont canada l v s eugene hsu aka heuge the university of southern california eugenehs scf usc edu electrical and biomedical engineering ho ho freaking ho yeah yeah who s santa s next victim kroq s the new detective as he goes undercover
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re another happy gateway owner pastor vfl paramax com jon pastor writes which they do in the vast majority of cases remember that it s only the people on the tails of the curve who are motivated to write the ones who love it and the ones who hate it you don t hear from the folks in the middle very often they have rough edges no doubt about it but they give good value per dollar and use almost all top quality components i am one of those middle of the road gw owners who is satisfied with my system i had my share of problems corrections phone conversations etc i m satisfied on what i got for my money stephen r husak what am i trying to do what am i trying to say i m not trying to tell you anything you didn t know when you woke up today depeche mode nothing music for the masses stephen r husak husak ux cso uiuc edu univerisity of illinois
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted chipset info i have a with an m motherboard the last byte memory manager which i downloaded for a trial reports the chipset is an addtech pcchip chipset and it is able to activate the ram behind segments a ffff which can then be used for umbs except for video bios i would like to write my own driver to activate the memory does anyone know where i can get programming information on this chip phil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted opinions on mag s and nanao i monitor hi i m looking to buy a monitor soon and it seems that i can t decide what monitor i should buy i have a mag s this is a dpi version and it using a triniton tube and a nanao i in mind does anyone know of any specification or problems these monitor have actually any related opinions at buying a monitor will be welcomed thanks in advance ong mang iastate edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitor for xga in c ifpg hc news claremont edu dhosek jarthur claremont edu d hosek writes what is the recommended monitor for xga can i just use any old svga monitor or is something more needed mostly curious before i go blowing a monster wad of cash on a new system xga or xga for the original xga you just need something that can do x at hz interlaced just tell them compatible and they should get the idea for the xga get what you like i prefer multi syncs like the ibm the necs or even a fixed frequency monitor like my home viewsonic i like the multisyncs because it s easy to run them in modes like x x k colors noninterlaced or at higher modes like x x dick kaul my opinions only not official ibm positions etc ibm xga development they d make me wear a suit if i were to speak for ibm boca raton fl shhhh the maestro is decomposing kaul vnet ibm com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx in article qd bcinnmep golem wcc govt nz hamilton golem wcc govt nz michael hamilton writes i have definitly seen a mother board with local bus slots which claimed to be able to support any cpu including the dx and dx can someone throw some more informed light on this issue michael hamilton some motherboards support vl bus and dx cpu there is an option bios i think where additional wait s can be added with regard to cpu vl bus transactions this slows the cpu down to a rate that gives the vl bus device s time to do their thing these particular wait s are applied when the cpu transacts with vl bus device s you want to enable these wait s only if you are using a dx with vl bus devices this is from reading my motherboard manual and these are my interpre tations your mileage may vary strictly speaking vl and mhz are not compatable and there is at least one fudge mechanism to physically allow it to work gary korenek korenek ferranti com network management technology incorporated formerly ferranti international controls corp sugar land texas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	rd cfv and vote ack comp os os programmer porting setup multimedia bugs attention voters i had a problem with my mailbox on the first day of voting please check the vote acknowlegement ack at the end of this cfv if your name address is not there please send your vote again actually check even if you voted after the first day introduction this is the third and final call for votes cfv for the creation of four os newsgroups and the renaming of one a create comp os os programmer porting unmoderated b renaming of comp os os programmer to comp os os programmer misc unmoderated c comp os os setup unmoderated d comp os os multimedia unmoderated e comp os os bugs unmoderated this is the second attempt at creating comp os os programmer porting and comp os os setup and renaming comp os os programmer to comp os os programmer misc the first attempt failed in the summer of the voting deadline was august the voting rules state that another attempt for creating newsgroups can be started after a six month waiting period in this case it is march this is the first attempt at creating comp os os multimedia and comp os os bugs this document contains the background showing the need for these proposals the proposed charters for these proposals voting instructions a voting ballot some example ballots the voting rules the voting schedule the mass acknowledgement background the creation of two free bit compilers for os x gcc and emx gcc read comp os os programmer for details has spurred a continuing deluge of software ported from unix platforms such as emacs less awk grep sed xscheme ispell flex yacc and much more borland has released its c c compiler for os x allowing for easier porting of dos and windows software much of the pc hardware and drivers were written for dos and later windows as more people are discovering os x the number of people asking questions about os s compatibility with their hardware increases as does the questions on the availability of drivers for their hardware installation procedures etc multimedia is becoming popular os supports windows multimedia extensions using win os furthermore ibm is including direct multimedia support in os starting with version in addition to using win os any non trivial software will have bugs os is not exempt especially since ibm is constantly adding new features to os so far ibm has issued system patches and corrective service disks e g the service pak for free free from bbss and ftp sites or for free plus a small media charge for diskettes read comp os os misc for details proposed charters a create comp os os programmer porting unmoderated it will provide a forum for developers of ported software so as to coordinate efforts avoid duplication of effort and spur additional development the group will also cover topics such as porting from other platforms such as dos windows unix etc toolkits which aid in program portability including porting tools such as mirrors and so forth b rename comp os os programmer misc unmoderated to keep the structure of the os newsgroup heirarchy orthogonal comp os os programmer should be renamed to comp os os programmer misc comp os os programmer misc will still be the newsgroup for os programmers to discuss programming issues and technical aspects of os in an unmoderated setting c create comp os os setup unmoderated it will be devoted to os system setup topics including the availability of device drivers compatibility information installation procedures system requirements and overall performance optimization d create comp os os multimedia unmoderated it will provide a forum for discussion of multi media issues e create comp os os bugs unmoderated it will provide a forum for os system bug reports bug diagnosis and work arounds the availability of system patches and corrective service disks and so forth note that discussion of bugs in applications belong in other newsgroups and discussion of bugs in os betas belong in comp os os beta how to vote to cast your vote fill out the ballot below and e mail it to me many newsreaders will allow e mail to be sent by replying to this post be sure to send only the ballot and edit out the rest of this post type in your vote for each proposal if you favor the charter as proposed put a yes after its name if you oppose the charter as proposed put a no after its name to abstain leave a blank after its name type in your last name i e your family name a comma and your first name i e your personal name cut out the ballot please do not delete any lines of the ballot e mail your ballot to mlevis lonestar utsa edu before pm central time april ballot cut here cut here cut here a comp os os programmer porting b comp os os programmer misc c comp os os setup d comp os os multimedia e comp os os bugs f voter s last first name e mail ballot to mlevis lonestar utsa edu by april cut here cut here cut here example ballot a comp os os programmer porting yes b comp os os programmer misc yes c comp os os setup no d comp os os multimedia e comp os os bugs no f voter s last first name smith john in this example john smith favors comp os os programmer porting to be created and comp os os programmer to be renamed to comp os os programmer misc he also opposes the creation of comp os os setup and comp os os bugs he does not have a view on the creation of comp os os multimedia example ballot a comp os os programmer porting yes b comp os os programmer misc yes c comp os os setup yes d comp os os multimedia yes e comp os os bugs yes f voter s last first name doe jane in this example jane doe favors the creation or rename of all the proposals voting rules one vote per person if you vote more than once only the most recent vote will be counted votes must be mailed to me by the person voting proxy voting forwarding posting votes to a newsgroup etc will not be counted do not ask how the votes are going the status of the votings will be revealed only after the poll closes i will acknowledge votes by mass acknowledgement ack i will post the ack twice see schedule below if you need help for using your editor using e mail how voting works in general etc then ask an expert at your site also see the how to create a new newsgroup article which is posted to news answers on a regular basis if you need any clarifications on voting procedures for this cfv send me e mail at mlevis ringer cs utsa edu when the voting period is over see schedule below a proposal passes if both of the following formulas are true the number of yes votes exceeds the number of no votes by at least i e yes no or yes no the number of yes votes exceeds at least twice the number of no votes i e yes no or yes no no in other words a proposal passes if yes no max no where max returns the highest number given to it schedule the voting period started on march when the first cfv was posted by david lawrence the news announce newgroups moderator this third cfv is a repeat of the first cfv but it also has the mass acknowledgement ack of names and e mail addresses of those who have already voted re send your vote if it is not there if you have not voted yet vote now the voting period will end at pm central time on april votes received after that time will not count the voting results and tally will be posted shortly after that date mass acknowledgement here is the list of people who have already sent in their ballots as of am central time on april bdubbs cs tamu edu aiyagari sanjay ska crux cit cornell edu alcorn justin alcorn alpha ces cwru edu arien peter laaaa blekul bitnet frmop cnusc fr asselin andre assela rpi edu aurand tom tom longs lance colostate edu baechler cedric cbaechle iiic ethz ch bartlett warren bart pdn paradyne com bates john johnb up edu beadles j jeff neon rain com beal kenneth kbeal amber ssd csd harris com bedersdorfer jochen beders dfki uni sb de bell douglas dab scl cwru edu benningfield robert concert net aurs aurw a benningf biegel bryan biegel tigris stanford edu blackman ed ebb venus tamu edu bodnar john jbodnar ccwf cc utexas edu boisvert wesley wesb dermit isis org boneham kevin boneham suntan eng usf edu boresch stefan boresch tammy harvard edu boschma wilfried v si hhs nl botha david both dd mella ee up ac za bowe nathaniel woody vnet ibm com bowers neil neilb borris eece unm edu braun david roland roll choate edu bronner geoffrey geoffb coos dartmouth edu brors dieter db ix de brown bill brown chinchilla ir ucf edu cambria michael cambria smaug enet dec com carlson bill woc r poplar cs virginia edu champion evan evanc carbon isis org chandonia john chandoni husc harvard edu chen ted tedc cs ubc ca chua hak c ez po berkeley edu ciesielski boleslaw bolek viewlogic com clement bruce frey alfheim actrix gen nz clemente marc f mfclemente ucdavis edu cline ernest cline usceast cs scarolina edu cocking simon simonc monu cc monash edu au compton curtis compton plains nodak edu costello robert rcc ultb isc rit edu coulman randy coulman skdad usask ca cox anthony aecox waikato ac nz cox robert rcox qvack ee mcgill ca culliton tom culliton srg af mil daigle joe daigle apollo hp com decarlo john jdecarlo mitre org dippold ron rdippold qualcomm com donaldson ian icd ecr mu oz au drye stephen scdrye undergrad math uwaterloo ca duffy patrick duffy theory chem ubc ca dusitsin krid dusitsin ee umr edu erzberger martin erzberg ifi unizh ch feldtmann marten marten feki toppoint de feustel edward efeustel ida org filippini luigi luigi berlioz crs it fischer stefan fischer tammy harvard edu fleuren rik rik sci kun nl francis tim francis vnet ibm com francois menard menaf dmi usherb ca franks derek franks hercules cs uregina ca franzki wolfgang wfranzki hlrserv hlrz kfa juelich de friedrich jochen jofried fzi de friis torben tfriis imada ou dk g unther stefan stefan med informatik uni hildesheim de galarza edward lenbc cunyvm cuny edu gammon robert rgammon rgam sc ti com gartler hermann herm owlnet rice edu garzik jeff gtd a prism gatech edu gershman mark gershman bach udel edu giller david r rafetmad cheshire oxy edu gnassi john jgnassi hstbme mit edu goyal mohit goyal utdallas edu green anthony green roboco uucp grupenhoff mike kashmir wam umd edu guo youren yguo sparc a cs uiuc edu hacker jonathan hacker cco caltech edu haggerty michael mrhagger athena mit edu hargrave bj fattire vnet ibm com hartman shane shane spr com hartzman les hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov hassa george hassag rpi edu hed nevo nyh wpi wpi edu heederik robbert heederik fwi uva nl hellerhoff torsten torsten hellerhoff ac maus de hendel bernd bhendel estec estec esa nl henriksen gerald rn rose com henry andrew a h henry gdr bath ac uk herbison b j herbison lassie ucx lkg dec com herron kenneth kherron ms uky edu hilmer andrew hilmera mist cs orst edu hoang long lhoang orion oac uci edu hodge bob hodge iccgcc cs hh ab com hodges matthew modester iastate edu hollebone bruce lermer theory chem ubc ca holsman ian iholsman cmutual com au hopkins john john uhs uhs uga edu hoppenbrouwers jeroen hoppie kub nl howard robert robert howard matd gatech edu huang ping pshuang athena mit edu jackson dave d jackson axion bt co uk jensen colin ljensen netcom com kassarjian steven kassarji spot colorado edu kiehl horst kiehl ibt ibt kfa juelich de kitchin bruce kitchin lf hp com kone bob bkone rflab ee ubc ca kovarski mark kovarski zooid guild org kretzer myke tanith csd csd uwm edu lacy stephen sl andrew cmu edu lai william lai seas gwu edu landy brian landy cco caltech edu lau frankie lau tammy harvard edu lau stephen lau ai sri com lawton gef glawton cs uah edu le glasse franck franck leglasse irisa fr lebius henning lebius utkux utk edu lee james jelee ucdavis edu lehtonen jari jarlehto utu fi leitner thomas tom finwds tu graz ac at lempriere mike mikel networx com lentin kevin kevinl bruce cs monash edu au leung johnnie k z rick cs ubc ca lim pean plim claircom com lin steven slin cisco com lindholm george lindholm ucs ubc ca liukkonen juha jliukkon cc helsinki fi logan stan logan lexmark com lu kevin kevinlu yoyo cc monash edu au martin johannes jmartin mogli zdv uni mainz de mashao daniel djm lems brown edu maturo larry larry titan tsd arlut utexas edu maxwell scott scott maxwell channel com mayer gunther h gmayer physik uni kl de maynard jay jmaynard nyx cs du edu mccarthy christopher mccarthy gollum ttd teradyne com mcgehrin matthew matthew dabeef des edu mcging john jmcging access digex com mcguire ed emcguire intellection com mcmillan andrew andrew mcmillan folly welly gen nz meyer jeff moriarty tc fluke com miller richard rick crick ssctr bcm tmc edu mittelstaedt olaf h p mittelst felix rz fh ulm de moorcroft marc smarry zooid guild org morrison john paul jmorriso ee ubc ca mosher david dmosher nyx cs du edu mouawad naji nmouawad math uwaterloo ca mullins don mullins magnum convex com nadler cliff cnadler vnet ibm com nareid helge helge nareid due unit no narinian vartan v narinian ic ac uk norton charles m cmn ftp com o neel bruce oneel aplcenmp apl jhu edu o rourke sean sorourke lonestar utsa edu oldham c r cro socrates ed asu edu olson eric ejo kaja gi alaska edu oussoren ronald roussor cs vu nl owens bill owens cookiemonster cc buffalo edu parks dwayne dcp engr uark edu parry tom parry yoyo cc monash edu au pebly bob pebly vnet ibm com perdue alicia arperd mik uky edu petro herbert hmpetro mosaic uncc edu pietilainen pekka ppi eero oulu fi poole david dpoole hydrogen oscs montana edu powell stephen stevep kralizec zeta org au prescod paul papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca provensal jerome uunet uu net iac jerome quinn michael quinn phoenix princeton edu rao venkat rao cactus org reisert jim reisert mast enet dec com reynolds robert easyrob cs utexas edu robertson james robertson physc byu edu roelofs greg roe midway uchicago edu rosenvold johan kristian jkr ifi uio no ruppel markus m ruppel imperial ac uk ryan sean fsspr acad alaska edu salomon larry os man panix com schimke nathan schimken cs rpi edu schipper haijo haijo cs rug nl seymour jim qintar agora rain com shankar gess gess knex via mind org shaw jeremy jeremy plxsun plx com sierwald joern sierwald tu harburg dbp de sipples timothy sip midway uchicago edu skogstad oddbjorn odskog siri unit no smith donald djs ultb isc rit edu smith eliot esmith psych purdue edu sneath tim psyhtjs mips ccc nottingham ac uk sorensen tom gt a prism gatech edu sriram n swknasri nuscc nus sg steele alan steele nrcphy phy nrc ca steinkopf dirk dirk km zfe siemens de stirling ian t ian vnet ibm com strazdus stephen sstrazdu sedona intel com streeter carl cstreete nyx cs du edu sum eva eesum mik uky edu sum joey jpsum mik uky edu suttor jeff jsuttor netcom com swallow doug doug montage oau org sward david sward cmu edu thomas stephen swt therson affinity mn org thompson michael tommy msc cornell edu tiffany bernard lbt umich edu torremans engelbert etorrem hvlpa att att com tremain jim jim biology watstar uwaterloo ca tsen maoee tsen student tc umn edu van der lek petja p vanderlek research ptt nl van iwaarden ronald rvaniwaa copper denver colorado edu van woerkom marc e e marc van woerkom ac maus de veeraraghavan venkatesh venky owlnet rice edu veldhuyzen eric v si hhs nl vigor kevin kevin wicat com villumsen ole ovillumsen daimi aau dk wald david wald theory lcs mit edu wallace jack grey vnet ibm com wantosch rainer rainer sasowa han de watson brett watson s elec uq oz au weber fahr christoph weber rhrk uni kl de weeks larry dev ecn purdue edu werner john werner soe berkeley edu west mike west esd dl nec com weyrich orville uunet uu net weyrich orville white andrew apwhite csugrad cs vt edu wiersema brian brianw umd umd edu wimmer carsten carsten wimmer train fido de wittenauer allen allen wittenauer crispy carb il us woodbury gregory ggw wolves durham nc us worthington stephen stephen actrix gen nz wright gregory gregory bcstec ca boeing com wyble richard transfer stratus com schunix rwyble young david m dyoung netcom com zabbal christian kris binkley cs mcgill ca zawodny jeremy jzawodn andy bgsu edu zou nan nan matt ksu ksu edu os mike levis unofficial os spokesmodel s os mlevis lonestar utsa edu votes os mlevis ringer cs utsa edu clarifications
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ncr external floppy drive hi i just inherited an ncr external floppy this thing has every port known to man on the back the question is does anyone know how to connect this thing to a pc what hardware is needed software tia alex p s please respond directly i am not on this alias
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with fixed frequency khz vga monitor i recently bought a monichrome vga monitor for that will do x non interlaced which seems like a good deal however it is a fixed scan rate monitor and only handles khz horizontal i think with my trident card it works only in graphics modes e and not much use since just about any application will set the mode to something else especially if it wants to do text i suppose anyway is there any way that i can use this as a general purpose vga display with a meg trident c card if not can i do so with some sort of different vga card peter desnoyers
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	request info on a mystery pc card while rummaging through a box of old pc parts i found a half size board that looks like a comm port board it was made by forte data systems and has a copyright date of on it the board provides a male pin connector and has jumpers of pins each two labelled a b c i plugged it into my pc and ran advanced diagnostics several times changing the jumper positions each time but the system did not recognise a comm port does anyone have a clue as to what this board might be or how to configure it i could use another comm port if it s free bryan
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	joystick suggestions i m planning on buying a joystick first time since i sold my amiga five years ago for a pc i have no idea what kind of stick i should buy many people have recommended variety of gravis es models are they any good the best willy ville v walveranta tel fax linda ave apt from finland oakland ca faxes automatically recognized usa email wil shell portal com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info wanted on tseng labs et vlb hi fellow netters does anybody have any info on tseng labs et vlb card price speed compatibility with existing and up comming softwares performance compared to others cards is it an s based card thank you
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article qk kvinnndk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes point of view why does scsi have an advantage when it comes to multi tasking data is data and it could be anywhere on the drive can scsi find it faster can it get it off the drive and into the computer faster does it have a better cache system i thought scsi was good at managing a data bus when multiple devices are attached if we are only talking about a single drive explain why scsi is inherently faster at managing data from a hard drive ide integrated device electronics currently the most common standard and is mainly used for medium sized drives can have more than one hard drive asynchronous transfer mb s max why don t you start with the spec sheet of the isa bus first you can quote scsi specs till you re blue in the face but if they exceed the isa bus capability then what s the point who says ide is limited to megs sec what about vlb ide does anyone know how they perform so at its lowest setting scsi interface in asynchronous scsi mode averages the through put maximum of ide in asynchronous mode in full scsi mode it blows poor ide out the window down the street and into the garbage can as implimented on what system the problem becomes can the drive mechanisim keep up with those through put rates and that is where the bottleneck and cost of scsi comes from not the interface itself but more and more from drive mechanisims to use the scsi through put given the original question scsi used only as a single hard drive controller is it then necessary to get a scsi drive that will do at least maybe megs sec for the scsi choice to make any sence what does a meg megs sec scsi drive cost the cost of scsi interface is a self fulliling prophisy few people buy scsi because it is so expencive for the pc which in turn convices makes that mass producing scsi which would reduce its cost is unwarented and so scsi is expencive that is the effect of the rule of scale the more items sold the less each item has to bare the brunt the cost of manufacture and so the less each item has to cost the original cga cart back in was i think the original ega card or pga was scsi has stood relatively alone in not coming down in price mainly because we re talking about pc s and not sun s or sparc or sgi or name your favorite unix workstation that is after millions of pc buying decisions over the years scsi has had plenty of time to come down in price i won t argue that the scsi standard makes for a good well implimented data highway but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help ka q ethernet dear all i am trying to get my standard connection going with ka q pa gri and a gvc nic ethernet card i know that my router and modem is working because i am able to ping finger and even telnetd with it however after a time it crashes randomly help would be greatly appreciated i suspect that there is a hardware conflict in the pc i am running with a sx mb ram the ethernet card is configured for irq ports x x f thanks in advance i know that it s not much to go on but i don t even know what the questions to ask are sorry please send mail elliott
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date is stuck anybody seen the date get stuck i m running ms dos with a menu system alive all the time the machine is left running all the time suddenly the date no longer rolls over the time is reasonably accurate allways but we have to change the date by hand every morning this involves exiting the menu system to get to dos anyone have the slightest idea why this should be even a clue as to whether the hardware battery cmos or dos is broken kevin o gorman kevin kosman uucp kevin kosman uucp nrc com voice vital computer systems beachcomber oxnard ca non disclaimer my boss is me and he stands behind everything i say
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	s c w mb x x k colors orchid pipe dream hi i have an orchid fahrenheit vlb with mb of dram it is an s c based card i had a problem for a while after installing my second meg of dram for the video and thanks to orchid i got a fix from their tech support it was jumper settings not given in the ordinary manual i assume it would come with memory ordered from them so i guess i should be glad they didn t just say buy the memory from us or something like that the one thing that i was puzzled by was why there was not a x x k color mode on the thing either in full screen or enlarged desktop mode my ati ultra plus can handle that given mb of memory all the mb buys you on the fahrenheit is x x just one more mode geez had i known i wouldn t have bothered i asked them why and all i got was your point is well taken but orchid s software developers are busy with other projects so to get to the point finally are there any s c drivers out there that can handle high res hicolor modes i d love to get another card but perhaps it will have to wait until the next generation of cards comes out since this card came bundled with my system and it s not so easy to exchange these things unless they re broken if you want these modes steer away from orchids s c cards ie vlb or va vlb at least until their developers are less busy if the magazines are to believed i ve only seen one s c product thus far which can handle x x k color genoa although evenn that might be a misprint please if there are generic or semi generic drivers out there let me know where i can get them x x k is ok but i coulda gotten that with my ati vga wonder xl thanks donyee athena mit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re what is at bus clk speed in article uupcb hal k ann arbor mi us robert desonia hal k ann arbor mi us robert desonia writes s there is one param in the bios setup that says at bus clk i have clock which is beyond isa specs but may be ok if all of the cards can run that fast i would set it to in fact i did and set it back if anything acts weird e g you get unexplainable floppy drive errors your modem locks up you have video problems etc if you overdrive the at bus then that should be the first thing to check if you get an error on your system it is pretty safe to overdrive your at bus as long as your isa cards still work flawlessly i suggest backing up your hd before playing with it though on my dx really not dx my at bus is set to clk at mhz i have no problems soundblaster pro zoom fxm rll controller etc all work fine if i set it to mhz i simply don t get past the post routines i doubt you could actually damage much by playing with it allen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings my solution was to switch the interrupt to irq which is unreserved in contemporary computers using irq for the drives went out with the xt architechture not completly true for at class and later machines irq is reserved for lpt since it s rare to have a second parallel port in a pc it s usually a good safe choice if you need an interrupt on the other hand we just ran into a problem with that here at work on a gateway computer dx v it has a modem on com a mouse on com and the other serial port was set to com which normally uses the same interrupt as com we had a real fight with a board when trying to use irq and discoverd the problem was that gateway had set it up such that com used irq as soon as we disabled com our problems went away grumble after several days of trying to figure out why the interrupt didn t work mike sprague wbst xerox com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ast hot shot i recently acquired an ast hot shot accellerator board for an sans documentation does anyone know what the dip switches on the back of the card do did it come with software any help or information about the card would be greatly appreciated thanks rob robert m bultman speed scientific school university of louisville internet rmbult starbase spd louisville edu robert m bultman speed scientific school university of louisville internet rmbult starbase spd louisville edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond speedstar hicolor card i have a dx isa system with meg i am using a diamond speedstar hicolor video card with meg vram and a standard ctx in svga monitor when i am running windows and i have overlapping windows say an application overlapping the program manager window and i close the active application window erasure is very slow the part of the window that is not overlapping is erased first very slowly this also happens when i iconify an application the hicolor card is advertised as a faster than standard video card but it does not have an accelerator chip on it i am running at x x k is this slow speed simply to be expected without an accelerator chip or is there something else that is bottlenecking the system that i am unaware of thanks you can mail to me directly if you wish at genek cs ucsb edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conner mb problem hi recently when i run the norton disk surface test i realize a slow down in harddisk accessing at begining of the test the harddisk will be checked at the speed that usually is as the surface test scaned half way through my harddisk a tremendous slow down occured the expected time for operation will jump from to minutes i try to use some of the harddisk tools to check if there is any physical damage to my harddisk and report always turn out to be none the surface test only slow down for a certain section of the disk and turn back to the original speed after it gets over the section i am wondering whether it is a harddisk problem or some other problems anyway help or comment will be appriciate shane cheney wang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need phone number for western digital esdi problem i have wd wa esdi controller with rom bios v it has been working fine until i recently upgraded motherboard to mhz now my maxter drive goes crazy making lots of seeking sound even when the drive is not accessed of course with numourous hard disk controller errors these symptoms disappear when i switch to non turbo mode mhz i suspect some timing dependent rom bios routines there s a newer version x could anybody help me on this by the way my new mother board has ami bios k cache mhz bus and works fine with my old mfm drives i had to dig them up also i will appreciate it very much if somebody send me the phone numbers tech support bbs for western digital many thanks in advance jay physics uw seattle wa choe phys washington edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cache or micronics eisa vlb motherboard this might be a silly question but i have to ask it anyway i am in the process of purchasing an eisa vl bus dx computer and i found two places that sell machines that have what i want and have the same price the first is ares and they use a cache motherboard that s the brand of the motherboard with opti chip set the other is micron formerly edge technology and they use the micronics eisa vlb motherboard i said that this might be a silly question since i believe that micronics is a very well known motherboard manufacturer while i never heard of cache i am however leaning towards the ares machine because my impression is that they are known for building good solid machines and they have good tech support hr days wk and a better warrantee years micron on the other hand seems to have recently aquired edge technologies and i m not sure how much i should trust the company i would really appreciate any input on this is the micron machine the clear choice does anyone know anything positive or negative about either company has anyone ever heard of cache motherboards should i go with micron just because it has the micronics motherboard etc thanks very much in advance for any information mohammad al ansari
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	int h for joysticks is slow i m using int h to read my joystick and it is hideously slow something like of my cpu time is being spent reading the joystick and this is in a program that does nothing but printf and joyread the problem is that a lot of programs trap int h like smartdrv and so it is a slow as hell interface can i read the joystick port in a reasonably safe fashion via polling and that isn t platform or clockspeed specific thanks brianzex
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re colorado jumbo for gateway pd world std com peter f davis writes i ve just installed a new colorado jumbo tape backup unit from gateway and i have a couple of complaints with it i don t know how common or serious these problems may be i would appreciate some feedback from others who have used this system btw this is on a dx v tower system i have a similar configuration colorado mb on dx tower the problems are o firstly gateway shipped me only mb tapes even though the drive is a mb unit when i called to complain they only said that s all we carry and with compression you can fit mb on one tape maybe so but then why did i pay extra for the large capacity tape drive you got suckered in the same way i did silly me believing that the logo on the front meant actual carrying capacity the people who do this sort of thing for a living call it marketing lawyers who prosecute it call it fraud perhaps we can have a bunch of other duped buyers march on their corporate headquarters o i have about mb of data on my c drive i choose the space optimizing compression scheme and started a full backup the software estimated it would take about minutes it took hours does this sound about right this is a bit long my system takes about minutes to do the same thing usually hours particularly if the tape is grinding away the whole time means that your block size for the write is too small is there any way to change the block size or write buffer size so it s bigger o during the backup about a dozen files came up with access denied errors most of these were in c windows system comm drv keyboard drv shell dll etc but also c windows progman exe and a couple of files in the c tape directory anyone else had this happen this is because the files are opened by dos the files in the tape directory are likely the executable file or the configuration file for the tape system i would recommend running the backup from dos so it will make a complete backup of the tape directory thanks for any and all feedback on this system i d also appreciate hearing of good sources for blank tape cartridges preferably mb size the mb cartridges won t do you any good since the drive won t write mb of physical data on the tape thanks pd brent williams brentw netcom com san jose california
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help phar lap spectre spectre nmt edu wrote could some one tell me what phar lap err the chip is currently executing in virtual mode under the control of another program you must turn off this other program in order to use dos extender to run in protected mode means this shows up on a compuadd express whenever a program such as matlab or maple is run it has been tried under dr dos msdos and dos there is nothing nada in memory nothing appears on a virus check anybody spectre jupiter nmt edu spectre cyborg nmt edu this world and everything in it illusions richard every bit of it illusions do you understand that donald shimoda i used to get this problem with autocad when using the noems switch with emm exe in dos if you allocate some ram to emm the problem should go away tmc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help with simms in article c fu u pxx austin ibm com guyd austin ibm com guy dawson writes in article lhdsy lahabra chevron com jjctc lhdsy lahabra chevron com james c tsiao writes in article apr fct unl pt fcm diana fct unl pt fernando correia martins mei writes spectre spectre nmt edu wrote when i look at a magazine ad that says deleted what exactly do the numbers mean i e which is the mb ns the numbers and refers to nanoseconds could someone explain exactly what this numbers means time spent bettwen processor s request and answer retrieved in case of reading it means the time required for the memory to refresh i e a x needs ns before it is ready to be read again nope it s the time taken to read data from memory it s the read time the memory will still have to be refreshed the whole phase is called a cycle the cycle time being about twice the access time i m sorry if i m misunderstanding your post but dram does not have to be refreshed on each access cycle so cycle time does not have to be twice the access time because of refresh phase the access time usually means the delay time from falling edge of raw address strobe ras to data bus driven dram access cycle timing chart can be roughly shown as following some signals are intentionally omitted addr ra ca ra ca ra raw address ca column address ras high low floating cas driven either h or l data valid valid cycle time access time or ras access time yes the cycle time is more than twice as the access time but not because of the refresh phase the refresh can be done either as a trailing phase of normal access cycle or as an individual cycle other stuff deleted ken nakata i apologize if there are incorrect rude and or impolite expressions in this mail or post they are not intended please consider that english is a second language for me and i don t have full understanding of certain words or each nuance of a phrase thank you ken nakata cis student njit
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re com ports modem mouse conflict really in article apr wnbbs nbg sub org comp sys ibm pc hardware alt msdos programmer comp sys ibm pc misc uw pc general uw pc ibm misc forsale computers d comp dcom modems oli wnbbs nbg sub org oliver duesel writes hi there yuri windy berkeley edu yuri yulaev writes i have s p g i o card in my pc when i plug in wang modem at com it works if i change it to com it doesn t program chkport gives diagnostics like possible com irq conflict at com with mouse driver in memory since your io card only has one serial port this should default to com under ms dos you can t share irq s so you ll have to set either your modem or your mouse to com using different adresses and irq s when you set two devices onto the same irq like com and com or and the latter one will always win i e if you have your mouse on com and start using your modem on com your modem should work but your mouse will stop doing so until reboot it should be no problem setting your modem to com you didn t write anything about other peripherals i hope it helped a bit by t e oli hi i m kind of new at the pc stuff my machine has serial ports com and and share same irqs you mean i can t plug a mouse into com and a modem into com and expect both to work if answer is no should i change irq s for com ports to be different and does it really matter which irq i set the ports too phil phil hunt wherever you go there you are howtek inc internet phil howtek mv com uucp decvax harvard mv howtek phil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article apr uxmail ust hk cs ngfo uxmail ust hk forrest normandy writes i want to buy a monitor any comment on nanno t i nec fg sii thanks a lot forrest normandy the hong kong university of internet cs ngfo stu ust hk science and technology e mail cs ngfo uxmail ust hk department of computer science phone rm paging a c rm ug hall hkust hong kong windows sources magazine reviewed a number of monitors recently and they too said that the nanao t i was the best monitor to get if you had the money but they also said that the mitsubishi diamond pro is the next best choice and that it has superb picture quality this monitor can be had for around has anyone actually seen any of these i am also thinking of buying a monitor and was going to consider the mitsubishi if i remember correctly i think its viewing area is measured diagonally thanks mohammad al ansari alansari cs indiana edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes what does a meg megs sec scsi drive cost since the quadra is the only mac able to deal with mb s and hard drives start at mb i have no idea for the mac i have the following these are all external mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb etc so scsi scsi for the mac goes down in price mb as hard drive size goes up and i assume the same for the pc world i won t argue that the scsi standard makes for a good well implimented data highway but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive well scsi is also a floppy drive interface in the mac since scsi is the inteface for any non card non modem not keyboard device the id is used for the floppy drive called cpu in all identifiers this allows cross drive interfacing as fast as the os program cpu scsi and drive can handle it this shows up best in the quatra line in the ibm that uses scsi for the floppy drive this should happen as well also scsi is not just drives but printers scanners expandsion cards this showed up for the plus as the nubus cage cd rom etc ide seems to be mainly hard drives as for specs nobody has given me any and i can t find any besides the advertizments call ide the at interface make of that what you will scsi is a jack of all trades and ide is a master of one this alone puts scsi above ide scsi blows ide out of the water remember scsi was used in high priced machines until about months ago when the mac prices came down to earth so the rule of scale still played and scsi remained high cost cheap seems to mean chezzy in the high end computer world at times and this more than anything else proably kept scsi off into the statosphere price wise scsi came from the high end computer world with multitasking os were the standard for the most part of all the interface next could have used it choose scsi in bit and bit mode scsi is a multi tasking os desined interface while ide and bit scsi are braindead run one program interfaces at least the way mac use bit scsi ugh
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in pc magazine april although scsi is twice as fasst as esdi faster than ide and support up to devices its acceptance has long been stalled by incompatability problems and installation headaches note what it does not site as a factor price int eh same article the pc would will get plug and play scsi from the article it seems you get plug and play scsi only since scsi in full implimentation has ten not devices scsi intergration is sited as another part of the microsoft plug and play program
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re esdi with ide in article qegfd dqi wsinis info win tue nl monty wsinis info win tue nl guido leenders writes hi is it possible to use an esdi controller with hdd together with an ide harddisk controller in one isa system i ve read stuff about secondary controllers does this trick work thanx in advance guido monty win tue nl i have the same question as guido it is possible to use the esdi drive as a master and the ide drive as the slave at the moment i have been using the esdi drive and recently i bought a ide drive to use as the nd drive the person in the computer shop told me that it is not possible to run disk controller cards together on the same motherboard esdi and ide but i think there might be some way of making them work can anybody enlighten me on this and it is possible to run a esdi hdd using a ide controller or vice versa can anybody please help me out on this your help will be very much appreciated g chow els r fawlty eng monash edu au els r mdw cc monash edu au gtchow yoyo cc monash edu au
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	floppy drive problem help hi i have a problem with my floppy drives in an effort to make my drive normally b my a drive i switched the order of connections on the cable from the serial card floppy ide controller i booted up changed the cmos settings to reflect the a drive as the and the b drive as the the drive lights didn t come on and there was a failure trying to read from those drives i switched the cables back to their original positions and then booted up and restored the original cmos settings the lights for the floppies came on during this process and they stay on for as long as the computer is on i see that when there is a disk in a the drive is spinning yet there seems to be no disk access msd exe and norton si detect both drives but when i try to get detailed information about a or b norton si tells me that there is no disk in the drive can anyone offer any suggestions i m in desperate need of help thank you for your time eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with bit mode for ati i finally got the vesa driver for my ati graphics ultra plus m however when i tried to use this to view under bit mode i get lines on the picture with bit or below the picture is fine can someone tell me what was wrong is it the card or is it the software thanks user s name edward wong internet wong ws webo dg com telephone
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article qlbrlinn rk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb says in pc magazine april although scsi is twice as fasst as esdi faster than ide and support up to devices its acceptance has long been stalled by incompatability problems and installation headaches i love it when magazine writers make stupid statements like that re performance where do they get those numbers i ll list the actual performance ranges which should convince anyone that such a statement is absurd scsi i ranges from mb s scsi ii ranges from mb s ide ranges from mb s esdi is always mb s although there are some non standard versions
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	toshiba b cd rom any problems i m thinking about getting a toshiba cd rom and hooking it up through the scsi port on a media vision pro audio spectrum sound board does anybody have this configuration out there if so does it work for anybody in general who has the toshiba cd rom drive have you had any hadware problems door not opening scratched disks door not closing getting stuck or not closing all the way cd holder jamming and any other cd related problems thanks in advance mark
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problem with adaptec b scsi and jumbo tape drive hi i ve just replaced my existing dtc scsi controller with an adaptec b and am now having trouble restoring from a jumbo tape drive i had no trouble installing the adaptec and dos recognises both the scsi drive and an existing ide drive however when i went to restore the backups from the jumbo tape i found that it was extremely slow estimated time mins actual time min i have no trouble restoring from the same tape to the ide drive i seem to remember reading that some settings had to be changed to enable the jumbo drive and the adaptec to work together but i can t find any mention of it in the manuals my system config is i dx mb adaptec b running mb fujitsu scsi ide controller running mb ide jumbo running off floppy controller on ide any help would be appreciated thanks ron ronaldm extro ucc su oz au ron mastus ronaldm extro ucc su oz au mariposa rd phone work bilgola plateau home australia ron mastus ronaldm extro ucc su oz au mariposa rd phone work bilgola plateau
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re joystick suggestions it depends on what you d like your joystick for i ve seen gravis joysticks at radio shack they seemed flimsy and didn t fit well in my hand i have heard on c s i p games that they don t last well less than a year on flightsims one redeeming feature does seem to be the ability to adjust the tension of the stick i recently purchased a ch flightstick there aren t any suction cups and no tension adjusters but otherwise it seems to be an excellent joystick i m currently using it for the wing commander series and red baron works quite well the large base does not require a steadying hand and so leaves it free the buttons provide good tactile response you can hear and feel them well there are other models made by ch that can go up or down in features for price comparison gravis analogue joysticks sell for here compared to the i paid for a ch flightstick i think the extra is worth it just in feel best thing to do is to ask a salesperson to let you try them out or at least feel it before you buy just another note analogue joysticks are best for flightsims or something that needs sensitive touch if you re only playing games such as castle wolfenstein or some other game that only uses digital input ie only up down left etc instead of how much right you might want to look into a gravis gamepad they look like a nintendo control pad but i don t know much beyond that will christie aatchoo philosophy the principles and university of manitoba uh oh science of thought and reality winnipeg mb canada i m leaking philosopher someone who thinks chrstie ccu umanitoba ca brain lubricant they re useful to society
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article c geh n d utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes oh yeah i just read in another newsgroup that the t i uses a high quality trinitron tube than is in most monitors the sony s for example and this is where the extra cost comes from it is also where the high bandwidth comes from and the fantastic image and the large image size etc etc it s also where the two annoying lines across the screen one a third down the other two thirds down come from tony catone compstat wharton upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re buslogic b questions goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes can anyone tell me if this card works with the march os beta i believe so since the buslogic cards have proven to be very reliable in os where do i get os drivers endusers not oem manufactures will get all the software package with the card which includes drivers for novell os unix xenix and so forth does this card work with the toshiba b cdrom in dos or os definitely here is my setup quantam scsi hd toshiba b cdrom i m considering the b because i have been told buslogic s support is better than adaptecs and that the b performs better than the c anyways i just want to know if the b will work in os dos with my above peripheals thank you extremely much for any and all replies
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re problem with adaptec b scsi and jumbo tape drive ron mastus ronaldm extro ucc su oz au wrote i ve just replaced my existing dtc scsi controller with an adaptec b and am now having trouble restoring from a jumbo tape drive here s a document that i wrote some time back it s slightly out of date now that dos has been released but much of it is still useful darryl okahata internet darrylo sr hp com disclaimer this message is the author s personal opinion and does not constitute the support opinion or policy of hewlett packard or of the little green men that have been following him all day id adaptec txt darrylo rel darrylo hints and tips for the adaptec scsi adapter this document contains hints and tips for getting the adaptec scsi adapter to work with various hardware and software packages they are based upon my experiences with an adaptec a controller and will hopefully help others however note that i cannot guarantee that the following will really help you it works for me and the information in this document could possibly cause you to lose some or all of your files on your hard disk important back up the entire contents of your hard disk before trying anything based upon information in this document copyright by darryl okahata this document may be freely copied for personal use only and may not be reprinted in a for profit publication without the consent of the author please note that i have no connection with adaptec other than as a customer topics covered in this document windows enhanced mode floppy controller based tape backup devices sound cards miscellaneous info please note that parts of this document contain technical and sometimes terse descriptions of problems for reference adaptec technical support adaptec bbs please send comments corrections etc via email to me compuserve internet darrylo sr hp com windows enhanced mode the windows install program should automatically configure dos and windows for use with the adaptec however just in case something went wrong i m going to describe some of the changes needed to get windows working with the also you may have noticed that installing windows makes your pc run much slower even when you re not running windows methods of speeding it up are discussed in the section called windows runs slowly msdos configuration the windows install program adds the smartdrive disk cache to your config sys and autoexec bat files if you follow the instructions you ll notice that you ll need to use double buffering with smartdrive this is the default setup you ll also notice that your system runs much much slower in both windows and msdos see the section called windows runs slowly for some ways of speeding your system up windows configuration to get the adaptec to work with windows make sure that the enh section of the system ini file contains the entry virtualhdirq off i believe that the windows install program automatically adds this entry to system ini but i m not sure if this doesn t work for you you might want to try adding some more lines virtualhdirq off systemrombreakpoint false emmexclude a cfff you probably don t need the above lines though the systemrombreakpoint entry is used to enable support for memory managers like qemm max only needed if you use such programs windows runs slowly once you do get windows running with the chances are that your system is running much slower than before if it s not it s probably because you happen to be using aspi dos sys version in your config sys file congratulations this appears to be a winning solution you are very lucky whether your luck will hold out remains to be seen if your system is running much slower than before this is almost definitely caused by smartdrive with double buffering according to the windows documentation and the microsoft technical note q smartdrive double buffering required with aspi dos sys you must use smartdrive with double buffering enabled while this works it really slows down your pc i once estimated that this slowed my pc down by a factor of five as i consider this unacceptable i looked for other solutions unfortunately you cannot just disable double buffering if you do windows in enhanced mode will not work and you might even destroy the contents of your hard disk by trying to run windows what you can do is one of the following use other drivers that provide double buffering it is my opinion that the unbelievable slowness in smartdrive is caused either by horribly inefficient double buffering or by a bug in smartdrive use a driver that provides vds services vds stands for virtual dma services this is a standard which is supported by windows that allows bus mastering disk controllers like the to work with windows after trashing my hard disk countless times i found the following solutions none of which require using smartdrive note however that i am now getting occasional parity errors which are probably not caused by these solutions but might be see below while the following does not require smartdrive using some kind of disk cache utility is strongly recommended as this makes windows run much much faster if you do not have the aspi dos sys driver or you do not need aspi functions for controlling a cdrom tape drive more than two physical hard disks etc you can add the scsiha sys driver to your config sys file e g driver c scsiha sys v windows needs the v option this driver must be loaded into low memory it cannot be loaded into high memory and it occupies about k as of november the scsiha sys driver could be obtained from the adaptec bbs at hopefully it s still there if you need aspi functions and have the aspi dos sys driver version or a you can use both the aspi dos sys and scsiha sys drivers in your config sys file e g driver c aspi dos sys driver c scsiha sys v amazingly enough the scsiha sys driver can also be loaded high assuming you have dos i would have thought that this would crash my system but it doesn t i asked adaptec s technical support about this and they said that loading scsiha sys high should be fine as long as aspi dos sys is loaded low on my system not using scsiha sys with aspi dos a would occasionally cause windows to crash upon restarting or exiting windows with the additional result of a corrupted disk some of my c windows grp files would be corrupted for me these crashes usually occurred while making a different program from progman exe the default windows shell and vice versa this is the reason scsiha sys may be necessary i have absolutely no idea if scsiha sys is necessary with versions of aspi dos earlier than note that many people can use aspi dos or a without scsiha sys they do not seem to have any problems at all i consider these people lucky others like me have had all sorts of problems in my opinion the best but not necessarily the easiest solution is to upgrade to aspi dos the scsiha sys driver is no longer needed unfortunately while you could get previous aspi dos upgrades from the adaptec bbs the aspi dos driver is not available from the adaptec bbs as far as i know there are only three ways to get a copy you can buy the new as of november adaptec ez scsi driver kit which supposedly includes aspi dos as well as other drivers such as cdrom drivers i believe the list price is around if you already have a copy of an older version of aspi dos you can supposedly contact adaptec to upgrade it to ez scsi for around a copy of aspi dos is included in central point pc tools for msdos note that the documentation and driver are stored in different directories note further that only aspi dos is included the cdrom drivers and drivers to support more than two hard disks are not included this is where i obtained my copy of aspi dos note however that i am now getting occasional parity errors with windows in all probability defective hardware in my pc is causing this as i upgraded my motherboard just after i found the above solutions however because these parity errors occur only during disk accesses there is a very small but definite possibility that the parity errors are driver related for example changing the bus on off timing for certain disk transfers might cause this i ve run various memory tests for hours at a time and these tests have found no problems this problem is probably caused by memory with marginal timing requirements which cause parity errors during disk transfers this is why the memory tests didn t find any problems the problems show up only under disk i o however i m mentioning this just in case it isn t a hardware problem floppy controller based tape backup devices there are two possible problems with using the adaptec with a floppy controller based tape backup device such as the colorado memory systems jumbo tape backups restores can take a very long time the tape drive constantly starts stops starts stops etc tape operations may be erratic or encounter too many tape errors this problem might be caused by defective hardware on my however i ve heard of other people having similar problems and so i m mentioning this just in case it is not a hardware problem on my tape backups restores take a long time if you have a floppy controller based tape backup device you may have to adjust the adaptec bus on off timing for best results when using the tape drive normally while doing a tape backup or restore the tape drive motor should be continuously running with only an occasional pause however the default bus timing on the adaptec may cause the tape drive motor to start and stop start and stop every few seconds this causes needless wear to the tape and tape drive however note that a dirty tape head or a defective tape drive can also cause this make sure your tape heads are clean this also causes the tape backup or restore to take much much longer than necessary the problem here is that these tape backups use the floppy dma to transfer data in memory to from the tape drive and the adaptec uses dma to transfer data in memory to from the hard disk the floppy dma needs to feed data to the tape drive at a certain rate if the tape drive is not fed data quickly enough by the floppy dma the tape drive stops rewinds a bit and restarts once enough data is eventually fed to it the default bus timing on the adaptec which is really dma timing is too large for example when a backup is done data has to be transferred from a hard disk to memory and then from memory to the tape because the default timing on the adaptec hogs the memory too much too much time is spent transferring data from a hard disk to memory not enough time is spent transferring data from memory to the tape drive as a result the tape drive constantly starts and stops because data is not fed to it quickly enough the solution is to change the adaptec s bus on off timing the default factory setting is microseconds on and microseconds off the bus on timing needs to be lowered to microseconds this can be done in one of two ways if you have aspi dos you can use the n option for example i use a bus on timing of microseconds which means that i use the following line in my config sys file device c aspi dos sys n note that there is no space between the n and the if you don t have aspi dos your only recourse is to try to find a program called setscsi exe which is very difficult to find the reason is that adaptec for reasons of their own does not seem to want this widely distributed i once asked someone who worked for adaptec and they asked me to not upload it anywhere if you have anonymous ftp access to the internet you could try using archie to hunt down a copy i believe that there are a couple of sites that have it if you do find a copy you run it like so setscsi n this adjusts the bus on timing to microseconds running setscsi exe without any arguments resets the bus timing back to the factory defaults note that it seems that you cannot use setscsi exe if you use aspi dos setscsi exe crashed my system if aspi dos was loaded i could use setscsi exe with scsiha sys however do not lower the bus on timing below microseconds or increase it above microseconds if you lower it too low the hard disk throughput will suddenly drop your system will feel slower for me microseconds works fine this value may work fine for you or you may have to adjust it downwards a little once you ve lowered the bus on timing tape backups and restores should run faster also do not experiment with the bus on off times with the other options that i have intentionally not described unless you know what you are doing bad combinations can cause parity errors and worse by starving memory refresh a program called bustifix exe exists on the adaptec bbs unless this has been upgraded since i last checked which has been a while this is a self extracting archive containing a batch file and a couple of other files this batch file was supposed to allow one to set the bus on off times for the and others however when i tried running this program with my a my system crashed at the time i was running scsiha sys and i didn t check to see if there was a conflict with it maybe this old program works only with the b although the docs say that it works with the a erratic tape operations or too many tape errors this problem may or may not exist although it existed on my system a hardware problem just on my particular could cause it however i ve heard of other people having similar problems and so i m mentioning this just in case it isn t a hardware problem just on my symptoms of this problem which persists even after cleaning the tape head backing up to tape encounters unusable sector detected errors resulting in an aborted tape backup tape backup works but the tape compare fails the tape drive starts stops starts stops etc much too often unlike the above mentioned problem tape backups restores take a long time where the tape drive starts and stops every few seconds this kind of starting stopping occurs every few seconds or so fastback plus does not find see any tape backup devices other programs like central point backup and the cms jumbo software assuming that you have a cms jumbo tape drive can find see the tape drive but fastback plus cannot too many tape read errors although i do not know what is causing this problem i discovered that using a different floppy controller solves it a few months ago i upgraded my motherboard which contained an integrated floppy controller as i already had a floppy controller on the i initially disabled the motherboard floppy controller after a while i decided to try disabling the floppy controller and using the one on the motherboard when i did this the tape drive a cms jumbo reliability increased dramatically and fastback plus was suddenly able to find and use the tape drive i don t know if this was caused by a hardware problem on my on the one hand the floppy drives worked great when they were attached to the which seems to say that there was nothing wrong with the on the other hand the tape drive didn t work well attached to the floppy controller but it did work when attached to a different controller this could be an indication of a hardware problem on my i did change floppy drive cables and so it is conceivable that the problem was in the cables i don t know what the cause really is however if you re having similar problems you might want to consider trying a new floppy controller sound cards many popular sound cards can play or record digitized sound and this is typically done using dma like the tape drive dma the adaptec s dma can conflict with the sound card dma unlike that of the tape dma this conflict usually manifests itself as a parity error your system crashes with a parity error message what happens is that data is being transferred so quickly by the sound card and the adaptec memory refresh cannot occur quickly enough which causes a parity error usually getting a parity error means that there is a hardware problem with your system in this case however the parity error is not a symptom of bad hardware i ve found that such parity errors typically occur while recording digitized sound and the chances of such errors increase as you increase the recording fidelity e g higher sampling rate recording in stereo recording using bits instead of etc like the tape drive solution the solution here is to lower the adaptec s bus on timing see the section on tape drives for information on how this is done note however that this may or may not solve the problem it may only reduce the probability of a parity error the software used to record digitized sound can greatly affect this problem i e some software is inefficient disk caches the speed of your hard disk and the amount of disk fragmentation can also affect this miscellaneous info this section contains miscellaneous hints tips and rumors much of it is merely information that i ve heard or read about and have not verified i believe that the following information is correct but i m not sure use it at your own risk with qemm and you need to specify the db parameter e g db unless you are using the aspi dos driver if you don t qemm will crash hang at bootup although the qemm manual mentions this the install program does not seem to detect that a is present and automatically add this option to the qemm command line at least this occurred with the qemm install program i haven t tested any other version earlier versions of qemm probably need this parameter but i m not sure i ve never used a version earlier than if you use aspi dos you do not need to give qemm the db parameter some or all versions of the do not support hard disks over one gigabyte in size to support hard disks with capacities over gb you need to get a new rom bios from adaptec i m not sure if this is still true of the latest bs being sold by adaptec to connect a cdrom drive to the you need a scsi cdrom drive and some drivers note that some cdrom drives have proprietary interfaces non scsi these drives cannot be used with the you have three choices for cdrom drivers i have no idea how well the following solutions work or even if they work the following is secondhand information you can buy adaptec s ez scsi driver package which lists for something like if you already have older adaptec drivers you can supposedly upgrade to ez scsi for around contact adaptec for details the ez scsi package supposedly contains everything that you need you can buy the corelscsi driver package which is made by the same people that make coreldraw this package contains cdrom drivers scsi tape drivers worm drivers etc i do not know the list price but i ve seen this package sold for around note that corelscsi does not come with the aspi dos driver which is needed if you do not already have aspi dos you may be better off getting adaptec s ez scsi instead this method is obsolete as the following drivers have been obsoleted by adaptec s ez scsi kit but i m mentioning it in case someone already has these drivers you can use the drivers in the adaptec asw kit aspi dos and the asw kit aspi cdrom drivers you will have to get a copy of mscdex exe a high level cdrom driver if it is not included in the asw kit but this is available from several bulletin boards to use a scsi tape drive with the you need software that knows how to talk to a scsi tape drive software that i ve heard about are again like the above section on cdrom drives i have no idea how well the following solutions work or even if they work the following is secondhand information central point pc tools for msdos supposedly supports a large number of scsi tape drives it comes with scsi drivers aspi dos as well as central point backup the corelscsi driver package contains a scsi tape backup program see the above section on cdrom drives for more details however note that corelscsi does not come with but requires aspi dos i ve seen advertisements that sell the in three configurations scsi controller with hard disk rom bios scsi controller w bios and adaptec aspi drivers scsi controller w bios adaptec aspi drivers and corelscsi drivers programs i imagine that adaptec now sells the in a fourth configuration scsi controller w bios and ez scsi drivers including aspi drivers those people who use unix might be interested in a version of gnu tar for msdos that talks to a scsi tape drive via the aspi dos driver you need this driver before you can use this program i ve never used this version of gnu tar but i ve heard that it works i don t know how well though if you have anonymous ftp access to the internet a copy can be found on wsmr simtel army mil and mirror sites pd msdos dskutl aspibin zip gnu tar for scsi tape drives adaptec xx aspipat zip patches for aspibin relative to gnu tar aspisrc zip src for gnu tar for scsi tape adaptec ctrlr i have no idea if a copy can be found on compuserve unixforum might have it if any forum does as far as msdos is concerned the a and the b controllers are the same with msdos the a should work as well as the b however the hardware for these two boards is not identical and there is at least one non msdos program that initially did not work with a a but did work with a b bsd a version of bsd unix in case anyone s curious here s an edited copy of my config sys file files buffers break on stacks device c sys dev aspi dos sys d n device c qemm qemm sys on ram rom dma st m x f ffff dos high umb devicehigh c sys dev nnansi sys devicehigh c dos setver exe shell c dos command com p note that i m using qemm and aspi dos if i were using aspi dos or a i d probably have to use a config sys that looked like files buffers break on stacks device c sys dev aspi dos sys d n device c qemm qemm sys on ram rom dma st m x f ffff dos high umb devicehigh c sys dev scsiha sys v devicehigh c sys dev nnansi sys devicehigh c dos setver exe shell c dos command com p if i weren t using aspi dos i d probably use something that looked like files buffers break on stacks device c sys dev scsiha sys v device c qemm qemm sys on ram rom db dma st m x f ffff dos high umb devicehigh c sys dev nnansi sys devicehigh c dos setver exe shell c dos command com p however if i used a floppy controller based tape drive or if i planned to record high quality sound from a sound card i would still need some way of changing the adaptec s bus on off times the first two versions of config sys take care of this but this last version doesn t local variables fill column eval auto fill mode nil end
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re western digital hd info needed my western digital also has three sets of pins on the back i am using it with another hard drive as well and the settings for the jumpers were written right on the circuit board of the wd drive ma sl i can t remember what the last one was if you can t find these markings on the circuit board i ll open my machine and tell you what mine are kevin holly mcmaster university hamilton ontario hollyk mcmail cis mcmaster ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re zeos computers i recently purchased the then current pkg dx for but changed to nec fgx monitor upgrade buy this pkg now for more you now get a bigger hd mb with hd cache days ago when i bought this pkg it was mb with k hd cache this is a great deal although it is generally recommended you at least upgrade to the zeos ctx monitor for more i believe whether you also upgrade to the diamond viper video card is your choice i stayed with the diamond speedstar pro zeos tech support is really good call after normal business hours to get the fastest access the hardest part about buying a zeos is the wait till it is delivered once you order you can hardly wait to get it there are quite a few good mail order houses around lots of bang for buck with zeos
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos no boot disk required if you don t want emm to load in article ls poinnsvf levelland cs utexas edu sms cs utexas edu stephen mark sanderson writes from sms cs utexas edu stephen mark sanderson subject dos no boot disk required if you don t want emm to load date apr everybody dos users in particular take note if you want to play games that hate use their own upper memory manager dos is not a problem no boot disks required as your system starts up hit the f key this tells it to bypass config and autoexec altogether you get a plain generic session of dos with nothing loaded there s another function key that actually steps thru config sys asking if you want to execute each line but i ve forgotten it at the moment you can try finding it i think it s f no you need not bypass the config sys in dos there is a function of multi config have you tried boot sys the multi config is the kind that you can choose you config sys at the startup and i find that is very good it has no conflict to qemm i have problem when using boot sys the key you say is f which is trace the config sys step by step sorry if any error phillip phillipau cuhk hk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	western digital no reply western digital s voice mail can get information on many drives or an actual person at the end
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	micron computer inc formerly edge technology since the net has convinced me not to try fastmicro if they were still answering their phones does anybody have any opinions on micron computer inc their vl magnum got an editors choice in the jan th roundup of s email and i ll sumarize greg greg ncel navy mil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dac circuit g day all i was looking to build a parallel port digital to analogue converter the other day and came across this schematic which i promptly threw together on a piece of veroboard p k p k p k p k p k p k uf electrolytic p m p m nf ceramic p please excuse the obvious limits of the lower ascii char set i have it all constructed here and sitting inside a nice little grey abs box unfortunately i can t get it to work i have a little demo here by the name of cronologia which the schematic came from and all i can get it to pump out of the box is data type hash static with a small amount of music signal behind it it s even worse than the speaker inside the machine does anybody out in net colourful computer world have any ideas suggestions better designs improvements wastepaper bin etc many thanks for a reply via this conference or email x regards jason jason bordujenko computer department internet usenet d tanus oz au townsville grammar school fidonet node grammar bbs paxton street data phone no int townsville queensland aust australia facsimilie int aust god made him simple science made him god stephen king s the lawnmower man
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re heatsink needed andrew you can get the heat sinks at digi key part hs nd size l x w x h comes with clips to install it but if it was me i would get a small fan from radio shack and install it where it could just blow at the cpu instead sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	which high performance vlb video card my brother is in the market for a high performance video card that supports vesa local bus with mb ram does anyone have suggestions ideas on diamond stealth pro local bus orchid farenheit ati graphics ultra pro any other high performance vlb card please post or email thank you matt matthew b lawson mblawson essex ecn uoknor edu now i nebuchadnezzar praise and exalt and glorify the king of heaven because everything he does is right and all his ways are just nebuchadnezzar king of babylon b c
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	booting from b drive i have a drive as drive a how can i make the system boot from my b drive optimally the computer would be able to boot from either a or b checking them in order for a bootable disk but if i have to switch cables around and simply switch the drives so that it can t boot disks that s ok also boot b won t do the trick for me thanks davebo david weisberger q mr president do you care to say any more about the operational details of the airlift djweisbe the president no unix amherst edu q how about explaining to the american people why it s an important issue for the united states to undertake the president what
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info about fast centronics ecp epp hello in the edn magazine i found a note about the new c t c i o controller it support several parallel port protocols including fast centronics microsoft enhanced capabilities protocol ecp enhanced parallel port epp the last two handle data rates up to mbytes sec is there any specification about these protocols available regards christian franke aachen university of technology informatik i ahornstrasse w aachen germany tel e mail franke informatik rwth aachen de
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitor for xga in apr watson ibm com kaul vnet ibm com writes my home viewsonic i like the multisyncs because it s easy to run them in modes like x x k colors noninterlaced or at higher modes like x x oh yeah i just got my new eizo flexscan yesterday to replace my old and i tried it with x this mode is just great i can get four perfectly readable command windows on the screen and if i need more colors i can go back to x or even x one thing i am wondering though why isn t there a monxxxx dgs file which contains all the resolutions up to x now i have to change the xgasetup pro every time i want to switch instead of simply going through the system settings of os regards martin erzberger
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	s re problems with s initialization as described the manual the following steps must be done for th initialization of the s card initdisplay bios call with ax reg f h with bx reg h for x x resolution interrupt h unlock register lock cr for access to s register set unlock register lock cr for access to syst control and syst extension register unlock graphic command group cr set bit to in syst configuration register unlock advanced display functions set bit to in function control register after these operations the fifo stack of the s should be empty when we watch the status graph proc status we always get the value fh instead of h full would mean ffh places occupied empty would mean h places occupied it is possible to read this register in two different ways both times we get different results our machine is a dx with eisa bus and a s c local bus any ideas andreas disteli institut fuer computersysteme eth zuerich email disteli inf ethz ch
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re recommendations for a local bus cached ide controller on apr gmt divya sundaram sundaram egr msu edu wrote i would like to hear the net wisdom and net opinions on ide controllers i would liek to get a ide controller card for my vlb dx motherboard what are good options for this preferably under it must also work under os and be compatible with stacker and other disk compression s w i have a maxtor mb on an isa ide controller although my machine is dx vlb i has the save transfer rate of mb s regardless of the variations of the isa bus speed i tested it with speed between mhz and mhz not any difference the problem is not the interface between the controller and the memory my advice buy megs of ram save and enjoy performance penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	an simulator is example code available hello world i m attempting to write an simulator on an ibm pc for teaching purposes so that first year elec eng students can see the workings of the microcontroller as it performs operations logical ands for example being shown on a bit by bit basis and so that the students can see that it s not really a mystical process but totally logical for example every instruction should show some working and not just alter register memory port contents does anyone know of any freely available example simulation code in pascal or modula that would show me where i m going wrong in writing my simulator i m using ayala s the microcontroller as a reference the simulator supplied with the package is overkill for simple teaching purposes i feel and there s no source code to help you roll your own please email me if you can help or if you know of somewhere more appropriate i should be posting this i rarely scan these groups thanks lloyd wood l h wood lut ac uk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanna sex hello you re not quite sure if that s a joke or not anyway you read the article you re right the header only this is a joke it s worth reading perhaps some of you know my regular list of ide harddisk specs where i give all available information about ide harddrives i am strongly interested in contacting the manufacturers directly but i have no money for overseas calls so i need harddisk manufacturer s email addresses please help if you can carsten carsten grammes internet ph hucg rz uni sb de experimental physics voicenet universitaet saarbruecken faxnet saarbruecken germany
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	connection machine hiya all i realise this has little to do with pc s but it does have a lot to do with hardware so has nay of you heard of a computer called the connection machine if so could you e mail me any and all info you have eg references ideas etc all help is appreciated caviar dreams l cause s minyos xx rmit oz au royal melbourne institute of technology music is like directing sounds theatrically moulding them into landscapes i wanted to link my music to places architectural environments and visual techniques j m jarre
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi controller hi folks i have hd first is an seagate mb the second a cdc mb with a future domain no ram i d like to change my controller ide scsi and buy a new one with ram at least mb that could controll all of them any companies how many and is it possible via hw or via sw select how divide the ram cache for hd for example using dos that is about all on one hd i d like to reserve ram cache just to it thanks to all write at rosa ghost sm dsi unimi it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	apple hard disk drive just wanted to ask a question i bought a hard disk drive second hand the other day and i opened the packaging up and saw that there was a small sticker on the drive that had a little red apple with a bite taken out of it it s socket did not look the same as my existing hard disk that is in my computer already it has fifty little pins sticking out from it instead of the that is sticking out of my old hard disk i don t know if disk drives for the apple or mac are different from ones used in at clones so could someone tell me if i could use this hard disk on my at clone if not what did i just purchase it s a quantum prodrive it s dated on the green board will i need a controller add in card all the help is much appreciated thanks pc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re hard disk question in article aovai bp qube ocunix on ca aovai qube ocunix on ca aovai writes hi i just disassembled my old xt and get disk drives m hard drive and a k floppy drive my questions are can i use these drives as drives d e on my sx this sx currently has m hard drive m m floppy drives if i can what s w or h w do i need i would doubt that you would be able to use the hard drive xt drives usually came in mfm or rll flavors i bet your sx has ide drives the two are not compatible on the same controller however you might be able to use the drive with its controller in your sx you should be able to plug your k drive into your existing sx controller i think you might have to use the floppy controller that was used in the xt timothy hu timhu ico isc com the intelligence or lack of expressed interactive systems corporation above does not necessarily reflect resource solutions international that of anyone else also thu grips uwyo edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what video board for my system i d appreciate any advice about a video card for my system dx mb of ram on a novell network monitor nec fge capable of hz vertical refresh rate major considerations i expect i will work mostly in windows but with some dos applications and i would want decent speed in dos i do mostly word processing database and communications not much intensive graphics with a monitor i expect i will work mostly in x and colors seems plenty but i d like like the image to be sharp fast and rock solid other considerations i sometimes run a unix clone coherent and i understand that some companies e g diamond don t encourage the third party development of drivers i might move to os if i decide i need better speed and reliability than i get with windows for my database work and multitasking i don t have a local bus motherboard i m not sure how much to invest in an isa video board versus getting something less expensive now and upgrading to local bus later i like buying things from companies that treat their customers well if you have any advice for me i d love to hear it via email or post thanks david m todd department of psychology university of massachusetts amherst ma usa phone david todd psych umass edu fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dx isa vs dx eisa hello can anyone give me their opinion on which system has got the best overall system performance dx with isa bus or dx with eisa bus the systems are equal in all other areas thanks in advance jesper honig spring spring diku dk if animals believed in god university of copenhagen denmark the devil would be a man
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mountain tape backup dh does anyone out their have a mountain tape backup that i could compare dh notes with jumper settings software ect dh or does anyone know where i could contact the makers of this drive dh you can contact mountain network solutions at dh general number dh tech support dh bbs thanks very much for the info david especially for their tech and bbs lines this should get me going bye x slmr a x it s only a hobby only a hobby only a origin the keep bbs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ctx i started a similar thread about a month ago and got many replies the summary ctx nasty low quality avoid ctx proscan not as good as some other makes however cheap main problem seems poor quality control some reported pincushioning the problem i had others poor focus etc etc i complained about mine and it was re tuned i dodn t even pay shipping and returned to me in days it s now clear well focussed and has no pincushioning or barrel distortion at all i m very happy with it and the digital controls and mode memory are nice certainly a trinitron say would be much nicer but that s well out of my price range conclusion if you re on a budget get one and be prepared to send it back if it s not perfect it probably won t be when you get it but has good potential chris
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx isa vs dx eisa on fri apr gmt jesper honig spring spring diku dk wrote can anyone give me their opinion on which system has got the best overall system performance dx with isa bus or dx with eisa bus dx eisa vesa royal among others is celling such a system for penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi i almost got a hernia laughing at this one if anything scsi on a pc will be obsolete killed off by vesa local bus ide it must be real nice to get shafted by bucks for the extra cost of a scsi drive then pay another for a scsi controller first off with all these huge software packages and files that they produce ide may no longer be sufficient for me mb limit second rumor is microsoft recognizes the the importance of scsi and will support it soon i m just not sure if it s on dos win or nt at any rate the deal is with corel who makes i hear a good cohesive set of scsi drivers mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re difference between vlb and isa eisa hurley epcot spdc ti com writes in article apr spdc ti com what about vlb and a dx does the local bus still run at mhz or does it try to run at mhz brian hi vlb is defined for cards by mhz and cards by mhz there are designs with mhz and vlb slots s c t mhz and slots are realy difficult to design better oss os ix are able to handle more than mb of dram if you use eisa bus has someone experience with vlb i think of scsi vlb busmaster the problem is the bit floppy dma controller which is unable to reach more than mb joerg
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	orchid fahrenheit sparkel the answers ok thanks to all of you who responded to my post here s the official response from orchid orchid is aware of the problem the new rev of the board rev d should not would take care of the problem production was scheduled to start on april i have no confirmation that production did start on this day just the word of the tech on the other line now the flame you would think a company like orchid who has produced good quality products in the past would be more helpfull and willing to make right on a screwup of theirs very poor tech support the first times i called i must have spoke with the janitor because they where talking craziness the last time i talked to a tech named paul and he seemed to have a pretty good idea what was going on until these problems are resovled neither myself nor my department will buy or recommend orchid products flame off again thanks to all of you who answered my post terry
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	two questions two questions i m trying to figure out how to access cmos advanced chip setting on a eisa motherboard air that has ami bios specifically i would like to set the atclk or wait states or bus speed on this board i can t seem to be able to do it any help in this area would be greatly appreciated i am looking for a phone number for wangtek tape drives specifically i am looking for jumper settings on a en drive thanks in advance tony
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	eisa tape controllers is there a qic format tape drive that comes with an eisa controller colorado s only has isa and mca controllers thanks e mail please mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re choosing an appropriate power supply please help in a previous article lopes cogsci ucsd edu alann lopes says the problem is that i recently had an hd go bad and someone suggested that it may have been because of an inadequate power supply how does one know what kind of wattage is necessary to run two large maxtors and i am not an expert my understanding is the watts output of the power supply must exceed the sum of the hard disk watts requirement typically a w power supply is sufficient to power a pc hope this help lau hon wah
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re why vesa local bus in a previous article guyd austin ibm com guy dawson says something to bear in mind is what the v in vlb stands for v for video the origional intention of the bus was to speed up the bus so that large memory to memory transfers would be faster this is espically useful in transfering data from main memory to video memory well not to be picky but the v in vlb stands for vesa while the v in vesa stands for video saying the v in vlb stands for video is not entirely correct
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q which of these cd rom players would you choose for os netters i need a cdrom drive as my order was cancelled and thought why not ask the net community i was ordering a nec cdr but saw so much cheaper ones that i want to know more the drive will be used to install software and if available for listening to cd s perhaps some day i ll want to use it to read the other cd s but that s not really relevant at the moment i ve been offered the following cd rom players for the prices stated they all claim to have scsi i and operate under os the drives are not listed in the cdrom faq and therefor please give your opinions on the drives i ve got the impression that they re not all scsi actually the nec was listed as non scsi in the cdrom faq and as a compatible scsi product in the os faq i ve calculated the prices as having dutch guilders times it s actually about times mitsumi crmc philips lms i philips toshiba nec cdr who bought that trantor that is in the faq it s extremely cheap and scsi so what s the trick or where can i order it holland using mastercard trantor t regards jv name j v meuldijk o o address gildelaar hw teteringen fax holland e mail volkert kub nl oooo oooo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	perfect mag mx f monitors i ve been intently following the mag thread while waiting for mine to arrive in the mail there seems to be a lot of complaints about minor alignment problems with the mx f one article contained a comment that the owner called the factory and was told that his screen rotation was within spec well my monitor arrived last night and sure enough it has a very noticable barrel distortion it s not dramatic but it is there and it is especially noticable when the image doesn t fill the entire screen the fact that it is worse on the right side doesn t help matters what i m trying to find out is if these minor imperfections are the norm or are most of their monitors perfect i don t want to send it back and get one with the same or an even worse problem does the factory consider this kind of thing normal and ship their monitors with less than perfect alignment are other netters just living with these kind of imperfections comments and opinions are mine not bnr s doug adcock adcock bnr ca bell northern research research triangle park nc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	connecting apple laserwriter ii to ibm pc has anyone tried connecting an apple laserwriter ii to a pc do i need any special controller card or software to do that thanks for any comments sardjono insani scip nusunix nus sg
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re shopping for a new nec monitor in article qjfa inn g titan ucs umass edu dtodd titan ucs umass edu david m todd writes from dtodd titan ucs umass edu david m todd subject re shopping for a new nec monitor date apr in article qhppp gha darwin sura net wbarnes sura net bill barnes writes basically i m looking for a svga x non interlaced monitor the nec fg is the one most of the computer mags use as their standard and from what i ve seen and heard it looks pretty good but it s a bit expensive bucks is the best deal i ve seen so i thought perhaps i might find something as good for less any recommendations i also thought about the nec fgx which has the same specs as the fg except for the scan frequency which is more limited anybody have any comments on this one would it work with i believe that nec is replacing the fg and fgx with fge and fge models reportedly being released at the end of this month i m waiting for a fge the main difference being a year warranty and higher refresh rates at the higher resolutions it sounded from a pc magazine note that the fge was being boosted in a number of ways call the nec number and have them send you info david m todd department of psychology university of massachusetts amherst ma usa phone david todd psych umass edu fax i have been using a nec fgx for several months now several others here also have this monitor we have had no problems personally i would spend extra money for this monitor and sacrifice other features on a pc such as mhz viz mhz based on the comments of others you might want to view the fgx vs the series on a pc running windows at x the refresh rate appears ok for me but you might feel differently finally speaking of spending money with the size of today s files etc a tape backup is certainly worth recently i set up a friend s pc mhz and vesa local bus the redraw time for a graphics program was only a factor of faster which i doubt warrants the extra cost
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re wanted opinions on mag s and nanao i monitor sleeping dragon ong mang iastate edu wrote i m looking to buy a monitor soon and it seems that i can t decide what monitor i should buy i have a mag s this is a dpi version and it using a triniton tube and a nanao i in mind good luck finding an mx s when i was looking around back in december january mag wasn t producing any because they couldn t get tubes from sony i asked when they expected to restart production as i was willing to wait a few months to get an mx s but they said not any time soon i wound up getting a t i and am extremely happy with it david david engel optical data systems inc david ods com e arapaho road richardson tx
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hard disk utilities hi to all you pc gurus i m new to these groups and so please forgive me if my questions are frequently asked but i don t know the answer i ve been recently having some problems with my computer with a seagate meg hard drive i occasionally find corrupted files but most of the time programs work fine are there any utilities that are easily available that can help me determine whether or not the problem is a result of the hard drive vs an ill behaved program or some other hardware item are there utilites to determine whether or not the hard drive is properly aligned etc as might be expected i would greatly appreciate any help on this matter i m considering just reformatting the disk and reinstalling everything and hoping that will fix the problem but i would like to have some assurance of what the problem cause is also can someone give me an opinion on dos are the compression and defragmentation routines good enough to consider the upgrade if i don t have those routines already as opposed to buying them separately much thanks in advance for any help mitchel soltys soltys radonc unc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re recommendations for a local bus cached ide controller in article apr sol ctr columbia edu penev venezia rockefeller edu writes i would like to hear the net wisdom and net opinions on ide controllers i would liek to get a ide controller card for my vlb dx motherboard what are good options for this preferably under it must also work under os and be compatible with stacker and other disk compression s w i have a maxtor mb on an isa ide controller although my machine is dx vlb i has the save transfer rate of mb s regardless of the variations of the isa bus speed i tested it with speed between mhz and mhz not any difference the problem is not the interface between the controller and the memory my advice buy megs of ram save and enjoy performance computer mhz bus isa mhz drive maxtor a mb config sys autoexec bat ms dos no win smartdrv sys cache smartdrv exe core v k sec k sec k sec norton si v k sec k sec k sec i d still like to here from people with vlb ide i still want to know what vlb bus speed is used with ide drives i still want to know if some most ide drives can handle bus speeds mhz ps a friend with a and a new maxtor meg ide drive gets between k sec can t remember exactly i think the bus is running at mhz in this case
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm pc convertible parts sale i have some used but working parts available for the original ibm laptop the pc convertible if you have one of these things and still are using it you may have found out that ibm wants outrageous prices for parts i built up a supply of enough parts to keep mine going for a few years and will be willing to part with the rest basically i have all the standard parts except motherboard battery power supply i ve got a few of the accessories too just ask these are in very limited supply however i ve basically just cannibalized a couple of old machines if you are interested please e mail me note for those who want to convince themselves that they are somehow superior because they have newer and better machines or who want to inform me that these are worthless junk save your effort i ll just delete the note those of us who bought these machines when they first came out still find them useful for word processing etc i m saving mine as a future antique
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi dxb psuvm psu edu writes scsi i ranges from mb s scsi ii ranges from mb s ide ranges from mb s esdi is always mb s although there are some non standard versions the above does not tell the proper story of scsi scsi i bit asynchronous mb s ave synchronous mb s max transfer base scsi faster this requires a scsi controller chip and provides scsi bit to bit speeds with scsi controlers scsi mb s with mb s burst bit mb s with mb s burst bit and mb s with mb s burst bit wide and fast bit scsi can be wide or fast it depends on how the port is designed the quadras will support fast scsi but not wide when the os scsi manager is rewritten since the quardas use a scsi non wide port the article in pc mag was talking about scsi scsi uses ten devices in it native mode outside its native mode it behaves a lot like scsi devices slower through put from your own figures scsi is indeed twice esdi as the article pointed out as for faster then ide that seems to be bit scsi using a scsi contoler chip the mac quadra uses a scsi controler chip for its scsi and gets mb s through put for asynchronous bit scsi far in excess of a normal synchronous scsi output of is which is near the burst of a scsi machine with a scsi controller chip the pc world seems to have scsi and scsi mixed up fact is scsi controler chips allow near scsi speeds through a scsi device as shown in the mac quadra which skews some of the data of scsi vs ide or esdi test i agree that the article could have stated that the faster then ide came off a scsi device with a scsi chip maybe it was there and the editor killed it because the article was dealing with scsi not scsi and he did not understand the effect of a scsi device with a scsi controller chip scsi chips are limited to mb max scsi devices with scsi chips becoming common produce up to mb s in bit mode and mb s in bit mode the fast version scsi ports cannot use wide scsi of cource the prime piece of wierdness is that scsi devices have scsi chips or more accurately the machine does this allows the best of both worlds high scsi speeds and cheeper scsi costs full scsi hardware port electronic controller etc is very expensive it also creates a logistic nightmare as to how fast scsi goes when one knows the facts behind the numbers then one realizes that the article knows what it is talking about even if it does not tell how the figures came about while dxb psuvm psu edu is throwing out ranges that don t tell squat since he ignores scsi devices with scsi chips his ranges tell even less then intended
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help with bit mode for ati in article wong apr ws webo dg com wong ws webo dg com e wong writes i finally got the vesa driver for my ati graphics ultra plus m however where did you get this driver please please please i ve been waiting months for this when i tried to use this to view under bit mode i get lines on the picture with bit or below the picture is fine can someone tell me what was wrong is it the card or is it the software thanks user s name edward wong internet wong ws webo dg com telephone cannon lobby ti com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi dxb psuvm psu edu writes in article qlbrlinn rk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb says in pc magazine april although scsi is twice as fasst as esdi faster than ide and support up to devices its acceptance has long been stalled by incompatability problems and installation headaches i love it when magazine writers make stupid statements like that re performance where do they get those numbers i ll list the actual performance ranges which should convince anyone that such a statement is absurd scsi i ranges from mb s scsi ii ranges from mb s ide ranges from mb s esdi is always mb s although there are some non standard versions all this shows is that you don t know much about scsi scsi with a scsi controler chip range is indeed mb s and that is all you have right about scsi scsi with a scsi controller chip mb s with mb s burst bit note the increase in speed the mac quadra uses this version of scsi so it does exist some pc use this set up too scsi bit scsi mode mb s with mb s burst scsi bit wide or fast mode mb s with mb s burst scsi bit wide and fast mb s with mb s burst by your own data the although scsi is twice as fast as esdi is correct with a scsi controller chip scsi can reach mb s which is indeed faster than ide of is all these scsi facts have been posted to this newsgroup in my mac ibm info sheet available by ftp on sumex aim stanford edu in the info mac report as mac ibm compare version txt it should be but may still be there part of this problem is both mac and ibm pc are inconsiant about what scsi is which though it is well documented that the quadra has a scsi chip an apple salesperson said it uses a fast scsi chip not at a mb s mb s burst it does not scsi is mb s maximum synchronous and quadra uses ansynchronous scsi which is slower it seems that mac and ibm see scsi interface and think scsi when it maybe a scsi interface driven in the machine by a scsi controller chip in bit mode which is much faster then true scsi can go don t slam an article because you don t understand what is going on one reference for the quadra s scsi controller chip is digital review oct v n p
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re booting from b drive djweisbe unix amherst edu david weisberger writes i have a drive as drive a how can i make the system boot from my b drive optimally the computer would be able to boot from either a or b checking them in order for a bootable disk but if i have to switch cables around and simply switch the drives so that it can t boot disks that s ok also boot b won t do the trick for me thanks davebo you can try to get into the setup byt pressing ctrl alt ins or ctrl alt printscreen on most pc s that should give you an option to set regarding the drives to boot from
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pc sound on a sb i read sometime in the last couple of weeks an article which desribed how to play pc sound through a soundblaster i didn t save the article and all old articles have been purged from our system here would whomever posted the article detailing where to connect the wires please re post specifically i need to know where to connect wires from the pc speaker to the sb card thx in advance carl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	no bit box on gateway while playing around with my gateway local bus machine last night it became apparent that windows didn t give the option for bit access for virtual memory i am using a permanent swap file and the disk drive is on the local bus interface is this expected or should i be investigating further why no bit option appears thanks for any help scott linn scott hpcvccl cv hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	question how to get serial mouse working on ibm notebook l do you happen to know how i can get a serial mouse pins working on an ibm l notebook which has a kind of bus mouse connection besides serial and parallel interfaces the manual doesn t say anything about it i ve tried two drivers with the result that left and right buttons are recognized but mouse movement is not should i cut or shortcut some wires to from the mouse thanks for your help eddy zondag philips research egzondag prl philips nl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re laserjet iv upgrades to dpi opinions larryhow austin ibm com wrote what are the current products available to upgrade the resolution which ones support postscript any experiences with them either good or bad is the quality difference really noticable i m planning on producing camera ready copy of homes will the higher resolution be noticed for these if you are talking about laser jet then i believe it has to be postscript i don t see any advantage to using pcl when you have a peice of hardware plugged into the lj that is doing the work and it can support any language that is suited for the job besides i don t think pcl is even capable of handling dpi specifications i only have experience with the laser master winjet which brings the lj up to dpi and it uses postscript it also has a fast print mode which is not postscript and it is at a lower resolution dpi i think but it is fast this particular product uses your host processor to process the postscript so even with a decent pc you know it s going to be slow i e slow compared to a high end workstation processed ps the quality difference is very noticable and is almost worth the wait for the ps processing i m rather impatient we were using it for b w camera images rs the gray scale image was accepted by ms word and handed to the winjet ps printer driver which converts the image into postscript and then hands it off to the winjets postscript processor the postscript is rendered into ram lots of it and when it is done it shoots it directly to the printer the ps processor can also accept ps files created from other sources including dos applications but windows has to be running at the time of printing the ps processor is responsible for the halftoning and i d say it does a pretty good job our camera images came out very good in my opinion not as good as laser master s demo though i don t know how many other similar products are out there but i would be surprised if there are several gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tandberg future domain tmc seagate st m problem i am trying to get my system to work with a tandberg future domain tmc seagate st m mfm controller the system boots up if the tandberg is disconnected from the system and of course no scsi devices found i have no other scsi devices the system boots up if the seagate mfm controller is removed from the system the future domain card reports finding the tandberg on the scsi bus the system then of course stops booting because my mfm hard disks can t be found the system hangs if all three tandberg future domain tmc seagate mfm controller are in the system looks like there is some conflict between the seagate and future domain card but the funny thing is that it only hangs if the tandberg is connected i have checked that there are no conflict in bios addresses irq i o port have i missed anything i am lost here any suggestions are most welcomed thanks in advance delman delman lee tel medical image processing group fax university of pennsylvania f blockley hall service drive philadelphia pa u s a internet delman mipg upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	logitech button mouse bios routines availability newsgroups comp ibm pc hardware subject logitech button mouse pin out bios routine availability distribution world organization purdue university engineering computer network i have a logitech s f or f s button mouse that i want to interface to a serial port of a different non ibm compatible system the mouse is xt at ps compatible with a db connector i tried to reverse engineer the mouse but it has a micro controller inside it if i could get the db pin out and perhaps a copy of the bios routines that support it i could map all this into my target system anyone know where i might get the pin out or the bios routines are the routines published someplace convenient thanks silvio ps please send email to me directly
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re booting from b drive david weisberger djweisbe unix amherst edu wrote i have a drive as drive a how can i make the system boot from my b drive optimally the computer would be able to boot from either a or b checking them in order for a bootable disk but if i have to switch cables around and simply switch the drives so that it can t boot disks that s ok also boot b won t do the trick for me thanks davebo we had the same issue plague us for months on our gateway i finally got tired of it so i permanently interchanged the drives the only reason i didn t do it in the first place was because i had several bootable s and some based install disks which expected the a drive i order all new software and upgrades to be and the number of stupid install programs that can t handle an alternate drive are declining with time the ones i had are now upgraded and as for the bootable s i just cut replacements if switching the drives is not an option you might be able to wire up a drive switch to your computer chasis i haven t tried it but i think it would work as long as it is wired carefully gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings the cybard dudek acsu buffalo edu wrote uzun netcom com william roger uzun writes i have a soundblaster board in a sx pc and i have it jumpered to irq port h will this conflict with my parallel port i just have an ide controller a multi io board with ser par port and a vga board should i choose another irq besides or is irq safe to use on motherboards recently i was adding a modem to my computer and i noticed that lpt uses irq and so does my sb card h i ve never had a problem but i m just wondering why not i thought this would cause a conflict i would also like an explanation of this if anyone can explain why the sb pro and lpt can share an irq please do so thanks tom huot huot cray com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bye as of today i will no longer be a contact for zeos international on the net this responsibility has been taken over by another tech davidm zeos com and i am moving up and on mo money mo money i just wanted to thank all of the netters who have supported and encouraged the participation of zeos on the net i personally feel it is important for companies such as zeos to provide their customers with as easy access as possible when they have questions problems and being on the net is an big step in the right direction i hope that other companies will follow suit as weitek and others have done again thanks jre jim erickson zzzz eeee oo ssss zeos international ltd support zeos com inet z e o o s technical support dept uunet zeos support uucp z ee o o sss industrial blvd n e any opinions expressed z e o o s minneapolis mn herein are my own zzzz eeee oo ssss fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help installing old hd on older compaq xt we are trying to install a donated hard disk miniscribe vintage on a supercheap ancient compaq xt for use in education the only problem is that the supercheap compaq didn t come with the manual and i haven t been able to figure out how to start the setup program i began using pcs after s were invented so i have a couple of basic questions did xt class computers even have setup programs if they did or do how do i access it if anybody has any good advice on how to proceed or what to do next or what to look out for please let me know e mail is best but i ll also be watching the newsgroup postings thanks in advance robert robert luke internet luke aero org the aerospace corporation compuserve danger will robinson
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re zeos computers mspeed ccwf cc utexas edu matthew p speed writes i am looking at purchasing a system from zeos computers i would appreciate if people could give me some feedback about the quality of their products and customer service along with any advice about which systems people like thanks in advance i bought a dx system a little over years ago and was satisfied with everything about zeos that computer went off to grad school with my son and i replaced it with a dx pkg mbhd mb ram with diamond viper k level cache and tower upgrades delete the ctx monitor i got a hp d a monitor employee purchase this is a great system fast quiet solidly built not a single glitch bringing it up tech support seems busier now than years ago i called with a configuration question and they called back hours later with the right answer i think there s a slight premium over gateway prices but imho zeos is worth it btw they have enough lines that i ve never gotten a busy signal calling sales customer service or tech support now you usually wait or minutes to talk to someone but at least you get in the queue and wait on their dime al devilbiss al col hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what svga excuse me to every one i am an amiga owner and tired to have the same graphic modes so i saw on nn there was a little bridgeboard that made the amiga s pc slots communicate with the stanndard amiga s slot the building mother house of this little gadget assure me that using this thing i can use all the pc boards included the svga cards i am interested in computer graphics and i do not know many things about pc in general so what is the best isa slot card on the market i d like to reach resolutions like x with colors or x with bitplanes any suggestion thankyou in advance paolo silvera certified commodore amiga developer silvera ghost sm dsi unimi it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	amd cpu any comments of amd microprocessors good bad thanks pat
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	leading tech question hey does anybody know anything about leading technology computers i have a leading technology sx and need a new mother board for it does anybody know where i can get one leading technoology is really made by samsung sx is samsung model sd
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info on high quality video card hi i need some info on video card i am looking a video card that can deliver a high quality picture i need the card to display images well for advertising company btw so it must be rich with colors and the speed must be fast too i am just wondering if somebody can advise me what to buy for such application and possible the address of the vendor thanks in advance glenn jayaputera
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comments on an accelerated video card for isa bus hi i am looking to buy an accelerated video card for my dx with isa bus i have a svga ni monitor i m currently running dos and windows although i m considering os in the future can anyone make a suggestion for a video card that would suit my needs how is diamond speedstar stealth etc thanks kent
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitor with rgb sync to vga i don t know if this is an obvious question but can any of the current batch of windows accelerator cards diamond etc be used to drive a monitor which has rgb and horizontal and vertical sync bnc jacks altogether connectors out the back i might be able to get ahold of a raster technologies monitor cheap and i was wondering if it was possible to connect it via an adapter rgb to vga to my gateway would i need different drivers etc thanks mike scanlon please reply to scanlon interlan com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	for sale decpc sxlp for sale decpc sxlp it s in very good condition used for one year it has mhz intel mb hard disk super color vga monitor button mouse mg floppy disk drive software microsoft dos microsoft windows microsoft works for windows borland turbo pascal borland turbo c for dos i m asking for the system send me e mail if interested
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors tony catone catone compstat wharton upenn edu wrote in article c geh n d utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes oh yeah i just read in another newsgroup that the t i uses a high quality trinitron tube than is in most monitors the sony s for example and this is where the extra cost comes from it is also where the high bandwidth comes from and the fantastic image and the large image size etc etc it s also where the two annoying lines across the screen one a third down the other two thirds down come from the lines are not a result of the high end trinitron tube these wires will be found on all trinitron tubes e g mitsubishi sony etc on sony tubes you ll find one wire their level of annoyance is purely subjective i m so happy with the sharpness of the t i that i don t even notice the lines the t i uses a trinitron sa tube which when viewed as a complete tube has a larger diameter than the standard trinitron tube this results in a flatter screen than other monitors using the standard trinitron which has a vertically flat but not horizontally flat surface and apparently the ability to provide a tighter beam focus karl tracy blomquist e mail tracyb bnr ca fax consultant opinions are my own ph bell northern research p o box stn c ottawa ont k y h
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings in apr walter cray com huot cray com tom huot writes i would also like an explanation of this if anyone can explain why the sb pro and lpt can share an irq please do so i think it s simply because dos doesn t use the irq for anything os does so with that you can t share the irq anssi anssi saari s ee tut fi tampere university of technology finland europe
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article qlbrlinn rk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes in pc magazine april although scsi is twice as fasst as esdi faster than ide and support up to devices its acceptance has long been stalled by incompatability problems and installation headaches note what it does not site as a factor price there is a premium of approx for the controller what is nice is being able to run hard disks tape drives cd roms and scanners of one dma channel and interupt scsi makes sense is you are going to load up a machine if you just want a standard box for windows then ide makes sense i have one loaded box that uses scsi and run unix and one standard box that runs dos windows that uses ide by standard i mean mb ram mh disk s video int eh same article the pc would will get plug and play scsi from the article it seems you get plug and play scsi only since scsi in full implimentation has ten not devices i beleive this last bit is just plain wrong scsi intergration is sited as another part of the microsoft plug and play program guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	orchid p vs fahrenheit mini review i just purchased a viewsonic and and orchid p in short i am happy with the monitor and unhappy with the card i have spent a lot more time futzing with the card so that is what i am going to write about the monitor is pretty the moires i had under simcity on my magnavox went away it isn t as heavy as i thought it would be lbs i think so much for the monitor on to the bitch session and test results in going with the modern trend the orchid p card only supports colors in x mode without a driver of course this breaks any dos program which uses svga modes like most of my cd roms the compudyne whiplash vga orchid fahrenheit and orchid f vlb all share this limitation those are all s cards which means it is an s problem for them the p uses a weitek vga chip which also doesn t support them the hercules graphite card does seem to have these modes but i didn t run the same test cases as i did on the other boards during the brief time i had it it was able to print the splash screen for the grolier s encyclopedia though which the s cards just printed as hash which is why i suspect the svga modes are supported the supported resolutions really annoy me you can do x at hz if you tell the driver you have an nec fg they only have about six monitors listed plus generic and if you choose generic you can t get any high refreshes at all but at x you are limited to hz seems to me that the hardware should be able to support the bandwidth if it can do hz at it sure should be able to do it at higher vertical resolution was the main reason i bought the card over the orchid f vlb i currently have and it will do x x hz as well the higher graphics modes all crash hp dashboard i just got off the phone with orchid and with the drivers i don t know what i have he was unable to recreate the problem on the plus side their tech rep was as helpful as he could be and booted up the program on his computer to verify he didn t have the problem he didn t know why they limited the refresh to hz either the board is faster that the ofvlb for most things according to the hercules speedy program this program tests various operations and reports the results in pixels second i don t have the numbers for the graphite card but they were close to half of the ofvlb ie slower but that was running in a mhz isa so the numbers aren t really comparable the following numbers were all obtained using a mhz air motherboard umc chipset with mb memory i give ranges because the program reports the numbers as it computes them and these tend to jump around a bit k means thousand not m means million pixels per second orchid fahrenheit vlb orchid p chip s weitek dib to screen k k k k memory to screen m m m m screen to screen m m m m vector solid m m m vector styled k k k k polygon shaded m m m m polygon hatched m m m m ternary rops m m k k font k k k k m the dib to screen test takes a device independent bitmap of a face and transfers it to the screen i have no idea what is being done internally as far as conversions go the memory to screen takes the same face and copies it to the screen my guess is after it has been rasterized into a bitmap that can just be copied to the video display the screen to screen test copies that face from place to place on the screen awesome interestingly the solid vectors and shaded polygons show no improvement and hatched polygons ie filled with cross hatching and ternary rops whatever they are graphics operations like xors maybe are a dead loss on the i give two numbers for the fonts because i think they are caching when the fonts are first drawn on the screen they are done fairly slowly the speed of the ofvlb then the speed increases dramatically sounds like programming to a benchmark to me i make no claims that these numbers mean anything at all its just what i saw when i ran them on my computer i normally don t write disclaimers but this time maybe i d better my testing is totally unconnected with my work i program under unix on decstations is done completely without the knowledge blessing or equipment of my company geoff sherwood
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	question can i connect two harddisk to one controller hi i ve got a victor pc xt with a mb harddisk in it the controller is a toshiba mfm controller with an additional pins connector there are busses from my harddisk to this controller one with wires and another with wires the controller has two connectors for a wire bus and one for a wire bus now i got a mb harddisk from a friend of mine and i wondered whether i can connect this second harddisk to the same controller there is room for a wire bus but not for the wire bus how can i solve my problem any suggestions if you need more info mail me please luttik fwi uva nl bas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	s video card at different address i d like to add a second s based video card to my system does anyone know of a company that sells a card that can coexist with another one all i really need is color text on one monitor and fast color graphics on the other probably just a configurable address would do it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	switch to a hi i d like to switch my floppy drives so that my b drive becomes a while my a becomes b i m having a few problems though i know that the ribbon cable must be switched as well as the cmos settings to reflect this change and i think that i ve done that correctly however the drives do not operate correctly in this configuration from the c prompt if i type a the drive light comes on if i type b both the light for the and drives come on there are some jumpers on each drive label original pos pos i changed it to ds on off ds off on ds on on ds off off io off off ms off off d r on on ms on on fg off off ds off on ds on off ds off off ds off off mm on on dc on on md off off ttl c mo on on any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated thanks in advance eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help me select a backup solution hi netters i m looking at purchasing some sort of backup solution after you read about my situation i d like your opinion here s the scenario there are two computers in the house one is a small mb ide drive the other is a dx scsi drive w adaptec controller both systems have pc tools and will use central point backup as the backup restore program both systems have and floppies the computers are not networked nor will they be anytime soon from what i have seen so far there appear to be at least possible solutions i m sure there are others i haven t thought about for these options i would appreciate hearing from anyone who has tried them or sees any flaws drive type x won t coexist with device y etc in my thinking i don t know very much about these beasts put mb floppy drives or a combination drive on each system can someone supply cost and brand information what s a good brand what do the floppies themselves cost put an internal tape backup unit on the using my scsi adapter and continue to back up the with floppies again can someone recommend a few manufacturers the only brand i remember is colorado memories any happy or unhappy users i know about the compression controversy connect an external tape backup unit on the using my scsi adapter and maybe connect it to the somehow any suggestions install a floptical drive in each machine again any gotcha s or recommendations for manufacturers i appreciate your help you may either post or send me e mail i will summarize all responses for the net thanks george george j pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei gjp fifth avenue voice pittsburgh pa fax disclaimer these opinions are my own and do not reflect those of the software engineering institute its sponsors customers clients affiliates or carnegie mellon university in fact any resemblence of these opinions to any individual living or dead fictional or real is purely coincidental so there
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help video problems i am using a ibm monitor greysale with a trident mb card the screen looks great windows at x but total shit at x there are lots of lines and the image is sorta blurry is there anything i can do do you think it is the monitor i know that it is interlaced at that res but still thanks for the help paul davies pdavies alchemy chem utoronto ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re comments video blaster creative labs in article apr ultb isc rit edu mej ritvax isc rit edu writes in bu edu heiser acs bu edu bill heiser writes in article c rdy fw chinet chi il us randy chinet chi il us randy suess w rites the video blaster doesn t work with the ati graphics ultra pro doesn t work with m system ram are you serious so i can t use a video blaster in my mb what are the alternatives other than removing memory get a better one hows about the win tv thing the wailer at the gates of dawn banshee cats ucsc edu just who are you calling a froofroo head od just a friend of the beast banshee ucscb ucsc edu banshee ucscb bitnet no good i perfer watchit tv it can run in dos and windows win tv only run in windows sorry still no good watchit tv will not work on a with local bus video it will not work in any high reolution modes either the people who make the card assure me that they will have a card available in june that supports both local bus and hi res btw does anyone know the name of the company who makes watchit tv phone bbs internet thanks michael grant mikgr wordperfect com or mikgr wpsun uunet uu net
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re int h for joysticks is slow lioness oak circa ufl edu writes i m using int h to read my joystick and it is hideously slow something like of my cpu time is being spent reading the joystick and this is in a program that does nothing but printf and joyread the problem is that a lot of programs trap int h like smartdrv and so it is a slow as hell interface can i read the joystick port in a reasonably safe fashion via polling and that isn t platform or clockspeed specific the joystick reads in anolog values through a digital port how you send a command to the port to read it then you time how long it takes for the joystick port to set a certain bit this time is proportional to the joystick position obviously since time is used as a position you cannot get rid of this ridiculus waste of time if you wrote your own routine instead of the bios it would speed it up some but the time would still be there john a slagel my old man used to tell me before he left this j slagel uiuc edu shitty world never chase buses or women you always get left behind the marlboro man
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	fujitsu and seagate ide drive compatibility i ve been trying to get my fujitsu m t mb hard disk circa to share my ide card with a new seagate st a mb one i ve tried fiddling the jumpers to set the master and slave drives without any success without the table of hard drive specs from this newsgroup i couldn t have got that far has anyone else got this combination to work the place i got the new one muttered something like hmmm fujitsu nice drives not very compatible he ll let me swap the seagate for another brand but he thought it was more a problem with the fujitsu so has anyone got a similar fujitsu drive to work with another cheapish disk or want to buy a cute and cuddly little fujitsu drive andrew henry bspahh gdr bath ac uk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	memory access time was re sram and simms sale ben elliston writes msg id aa f n z fidonet org posted mon apr organization compact solutions canberra act australia k of ns sram by my way of thinking michael how could this memory be static ram if it has a speed rating i didn t think sram needed a refresh time doesn t that make it fast dram this chip would take ns to return valid data after being issued an address refresh time none for sram as you pointed out is a different parameter and is not generally referred to except by motherboard designers cheers ben ben elliston bachelor of engineering computer engineering university of canberra email tp jarrah canberra edu au uucp uunet munnari sserve adfa oz au compsol root fidonet if a train station is where the train stops what s a workstation origin compact solutions canberra act australia doug oke vancouver canada doug oke mindlink bc ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q asus motherboards i m considering the purchase of a dx vlb system to run linux the system has an asus brand motherboard anyone have any comments on asus motherboards thanks bob craycroft craycrof rtp semi harris com systems analyst phone harris semiconductor rtp nc usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	specs for a wd drive greetings all could some kind sole email me the specs for a western digital drive it is model wd a with cyl and hds but i do not know the sectors per track or any of the other information i have to feed to my bios to get it up and running thanx for any help bob k roking lynx dac northeastern edu nope no sig honest
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	i need a definition of the spec and dhrystone benchmarks i need definitions of the spec and dhrystone benchmarks any background material would also be welcome if anyoneand email something to me or point me to an anonymous ftp server i d appreciate it thanks al dykes adykes jpr com adykes ad com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re toshiba b cd rom any problems i have the pas toshiba combo and have no problems with it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	adaptec asw and sony cdu about two months ago i purchased the adaptec asw driver for use with a cd rom drive at the time this seemed the thing to do as the documentation i had with my adaptec scsi controller said that this is the driver to be used with cd rom drives since then i have learn that this driver is out of date in a major way and that adaptec have an upgrade deal for going to the next driver i think it s called ezi scsi or something i wasn t too fussed about this until i upgraded by cd rom drive from a sony cdu to a sony cdu i now find that the audio mode will not work i assume it is not being handled correctly by the asw driver so should i chase adaptec for an upgrade if so does anyone know their fax number any assistance appreciated regards btw everything else works fine certainly seems that sony have caught up with the rest with the nigel harwood post coles supermarkets po box glen iris australia phone e mail nigel cnw storesys coles oz au fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	do not rotate interrupter woops help aaahhhh please someone tell me what i have done my meg miniscribe at has a big sticker on the side that says do not rotate interrupter big knob here a big knob sticking off the side of the drive is pretty hard not to turn when removing the drive i turned it now the drive won t spin up even with no data or controller cables plugged in just power it won t spin up please help thanks paul carroll pec ra msstate edu pec erc msstate edu nsf engineering research center for computational field simulation
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	a drive won t boot hi i recently switched my drive to a the problem is while i can read and write to both the new a and b correctly i can t boot from a floppy in a i ve checked the cmos settings it is set for floppy seek at boot and boot order a c once i had a floppy that did not have the systems files on it in a i got a message telling me to put a disk systems disk in the drive it didn t work when i do have a systems disk in the a drive this is what happens power on and memory test a light comes on b light comes on followed by a short beep hd light comes on for an instant b light comes on again then nothing happens the light goes off there is no disk activity of any kind and the screen blanks i can t even use ctrl alt del any suggestions thanks in advance eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck kevin kosman uucp kevin o gorman writes anybody seen the date get stuck i m running ms dos with a menu system alive all the time the machine is left running all the time suddenly the date no longer rolls over the time is reasonably accurate allways but we have to change the date by hand every morning this involves exiting the menu system to get to dos anyone have the slightest idea why this should be even a clue as to whether the hardware battery cmos or dos is broken kevin o gorman kevin kosman uucp kevin kosman uucp nrc com voice vital computer systems beachcomber oxnard ca non disclaimer my boss is me and he stands behind everything i say i ve started to notice the same thing myself i m running dos and win so i can fix it from the windows control panel at times it is the date at others the clock seems to be running several minutes behind where it should be if you find out i d like to know also oh and i also leave my system running all the time barry sardis home laurie avenue office san jose ca fax email bsardis netcom com or compuserve com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help installing second ide drive recently my cousin got a second internal ide drive a seagate mb i can look up the model number if it s important and i ve been trying to help him install it i ve got a vested interest since my machine s busted and i have to use his until i get mine fixed he already has a seagate mb ide hd again i forget the model number but i can find out anyway i can t seem to get the bloody thing up i ve managed to get one or the other drive up with the other disconnected but not both at the same time whenever i try the thing hangs during bootup never gets past the system test the ide controller s instruction sheet says it supports two drives i think i ve configured the cmos correctly the power s plugged in properly i even learned about the master slave relationship that two hds are supposed to have didn t know pcs were into s m and i think i configured the jumpers properly the mb one is the master the new mb one is the slave the only thing i can think of is maybe i m doing the cabling wrong i ve tried several combinations controller master slave controller slave master master controller slave none of them worked unfortunately i can t think of any others another possibility is that the mb one is already partitioned into two seperate drives c and d and the cmos asks for c drive and d drive setup info rather than drive and drive like most others i ve seen could this be confusing things so i need help the drive came bereft of any docs except for some info for the cmos setup the controller has a little piece of paper about the size of an index card i cannibalized the cable it s one of those with a connector at each end and the one in the middle so it looks like a serial connection now i be lost many many thanks in advance this is practically an emergency i have two papers to do on this thing for monday help william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net voice fax disclaimer i don t speak for suranet and they don t speak for me
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article qmgtrinnf a dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb says dxb psuvm psu edu writes in article qlbrlinn rk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb says in pc magazine april although scsi is twice as fasst as esdi faster than ide and support up to devices its acceptance has long been stalled by incompatability problems and installation headaches i love it when magazine writers make stupid statements like that re performance where do they get those numbers i ll list the actual performance ranges which should convince anyone that such a statement is absurd scsi i ranges from mb s scsi ii ranges from mb s ide ranges from mb s esdi is always mb s although there are some non standard versions by your own data the although scsi is twice as fast as esdi is correct how is twice do you just pick whatever scsi setup that makes the statment correct even if you could make such a statement it would be meaningless unless you understood that esdi and ide i include scsi and ata are completely different esdi is device level like mfm rll with a scsi controller chip scsi can reach mb s which is indeed faster than ide of is all these scsi facts have been great you can compare two numbers ata has several speed modes by the way but what the article said was misleading wrong posted to this newsgroup in my mac ibm info sheet available by ftp on sumex aim stanford edu in the info mac report as mac ibm compare version txt it should be but may still be there i would recommend people call the ncr board and download the ansi specs if they are really interested in this stuff part of this problem is both mac and ibm pc are inconsiant about what scsi is which though it is well documented that the quadra has a scsi chip an apple salesperson said it uses a fast scsi chip not at a mb s mb s burst it does not scsi is mb s maximum synchronous and quadra uses ansynchronous scsi which is slower it seems that mac and ibm see something is missing there anyway i agree there s a lot of opportunity for marketing jingo like scsi compliant which tells you nothing about the performance whether it has wide support etc one reference for the quadra s scsi controller chip is digital review oct v n p what does it use hopefully a good ncr chip e g c
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re need phone number for western digital esdi problem western digital sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help is my monitor dying hi recently my svga monitor has been acting up by taking about minutes to warm up previously when i first start up my pc i can see all the cmos messages ram test etc but now i ve got to wait for about min before the display shows anything and it starts up with a bright white flash this only happens when the system has been off for a long time eg overnight if it was only off for a couple of hours and then turned on again the display works as normal like before does anyone know what is causing this is it a warning that it will give up soon or just signs of aging the system is a sx and its about yrs old i ve used systems at work for years and never seen this happen to a monitor yet i d really appreciated any help that you fellow netters can offer thanks a lot edwin edwin ng edwin ccu aukuni ac nz e e engineering university of auckland private bag auckland new zealand
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi here we go again in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article ercc h w netcom com erc netcom com eric smith writes scsi is better because it has a better future and it has a lot of minor advantages right now ide cards are cheaper right now but will be obsolete in a few years in fact ide cards are so cheap they might as well be free the real cost is in the ide drives scsi cards cost more but they are worth it i almost got a hernia laughing at this one you ll probably get one when you realize that your vesa super dooper local bus ultra high tech controller sucks if anything scsi on a pc will be obsolete killed off by vesa local with any luck pc bus archeitecture will be doen any with by sbus have you ever seen what happens when you hook a busmaster controller to a vesa local bus it actually slows down your system bus ide it must be real nice to get shafted by bucks for the extra cost of a scsi drive then pay another for a scsi controller maybe my workstation doesn t understand what your vesa local bus ide is vesa local bus will be killed off by pcmi whatever intels spec is vlbus it not good for much more than vga cards to each his own i ll laugh when you start crying over how much you spent for your little ide drives and then finding out you need more space the biggest advantage of scsi right now is that you can add more different kinds of devices such as tapes etc easily and can add bigger disks the best and most cost effective hard disks available are scsi here here only of you need drives larger then meg oh yes gotta have megs sec transfer rate for those speedy tape backups and cd rom drives don t stick your foot in your mouth when you make a statement you know nothing about i d rather wait a second compared to the minutes and ide would take obviously exaggerated have you ever tried to backup gigs of disk oh i forgot you can t because you have an ide and no one makes ide disks that big basically if a person has to ask which one is better for him her then they will probably never see the expensive benefits from scsi i guess you probably bought a sx too also all this arm waving about scsi expandability is a moot point if the user only has one or two drives on it and with scsi those two drives may be fast but that speed is only due to the onboard memory cache something i can duplicate with a caching ide controller what the scsi fast wide spec has much more bandwidth than any stupid vlbus ide crap stop this thread now its just cluttering up bandwidth if you want to read about scsi vs ide just pay a visit to you local usenet archive the best scsi fast wide etc is clearly faster than any the best ide drive all the response given are based upon personal experience with or drives you can t judge such completely different interfaces ide has the low cost adavantage a descent performance scsi has the ability for super high capacity expandibility and speed neither one is better in all cases if you don t belive what i said about busmastering and vlbus then pick up a back issue of pc week in whihc they tested vlbus eisa and isa busmastering cards send flames to dev null scott mace internet smace nyx cs du edu emace tenet edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mb isa limit i was just reading in pc magazine that the peripherals in a pc with an isa bus can only access mb of memory also that some video cards on the isa bus look for a memory aperture to map their memory to so that if i wanted to put mb of memory on my pc my video card wouldn t have anywhere to map it s memory to can someone explain this in more detail is there a way around this limit if you email me a response i will summarize bo begolej csgrad cs vt edu james bo begole begolej csgrad cs vt edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors i have a sony s monitor and i don t see any lines across the screen and am only using the non interlaced mode but because of the hor lines and poping that i do see and hear when i am usinf x x and x x modes and switch back to anything of less i would not buy another sony at what ever price oh ya this is i guess a viewing area it don t impress me one bit sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re please help identify this old com ethernet card in article qhvuninnhau emory mathcs emory edu splee pd org seng poh lee speedy writes i have an old com ethernet card pc at bus that came out of a apollo workstation i m trying to identify it in order to use it on a pc the assembly number is rev and it is a bit card circa it has an aui port as well as a bnc coax connection it has selectable address for the bios io dma and irq locations via berg jumpers it also appears to have a intel processor on board presumably for buffering the ethernet chip appears to be an intel a pin dip package is this chip an equivalent to the used in some cards there is also a pin plcc chip called a link please e mail as i don t think this is of general interest my least favorite last line of a post um it is of general interest as i prepare to retire apollos myself i m looking for ways to recycle the useful parts mike simon simon moscow uidaho edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re changing motherboards messing with connectors in article ip portland caps maine edu jozef slaby ip portland caps maine edu writes when i changed my motherboard i had a lot of trouble getting led spkr turbo turboswitch hdd klck rst connectors correctly reconnected for example turbo switch had three wires and the motherboard connection only two pins and so on does anyone know a solution to this do i need to rewire the connectors or what is the best way to approach this it is somewhat frustrating i got it to work somehow but my turbo switch doesn t work at all i just put replaced the motherboard in a system and had similar questions my cents worth the speaker connector should have two wires going to the speaker a speaker being a coil it s bidirectional and makes no difference which way you attach turbo switch there are three wires to control how you want turbo to become active with the switch pushed in or the switch out i think the middle wire is common use an ohm meter to figure out which wire connects with the common wire when the switch is pushed in and which two wires are connected when the switch is out place the appropriate two wires on the turbo berg connector of the motherboard led s turbo and hd led s are uni directional depending which way the wires are attached the led will not light on my ami motherboard if the turbo switch wires are not attached to the berg connector on the board the board will power up in default in turbo mode if your motherboard is like that just attace the led wires to the board if the led doesn t light power off reverse the connectors and try again it should work if it does then attach the turbo switch to the board hope this helps dan moyer dan moyer columbiasc ncr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings in article s ee tut fi s ee tut fi anssi saari says in apr walter cray com huot cray com tom huot writes i would also like an explanation of this if anyone can explain why the sb pro and lpt can share an irq please do so i think it s simply because dos doesn t use the irq for anything os does so with that you can t share the irq that is correct in dos you can use irq for your sb you can t do that under os because it uses irq for the printer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info on genoa vlb card or other low end vlb i am looking for an inexpensive vlb card and have yet to run across any real reviews of them one of the cards the local stores are pushing is the genoa for apparently it uses a cirrus logic acc chip but i don t know which one gd one of the shops i ve spoken with claims the card out performs the diamond stealth vl and the orchid fahrenheit plus vl cards s c based but that can t be true if it is using the gd i like the price of the genoa but if it lags in performance behind the s cards i ll pay the extra for one of them any info on low end vlb cards would be appreciated if i get replies via email i ll post summary info if anyone else is interested thanks in advance brian oppy bjoppy ucdavis edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re splitting drives into two does it make them faster in article d q b w w infopls chi il us andyross infopls chi il us andrew rossmann writes guyd austin ibm com guy dawson writes the partitions take up disk space having or partition will cost somewhere between meg of hard disk space if you can afoord this luxury more power to you its your choice where does all this disk space go the dos partition table is fixed length and every hard disk carries one what is useing this lost mb if i remember right the partition table is allocated an entire cylinder to find out how much it takes up you need to calculate heads sectors also if you create an extended partition there is a second partition in there for the logical drives i think the original respondent guy dawson was refering to something much more elementary every partition whether it is the entire disk or not has two fats and an initial directory if you have a small disk meg or less i would recommend that it remain a single partition unless you have some other consideration if you have a large disk greater than meg multiple partitions can make sense mike lipsie work mlipsie ca merl com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory home mikel dosbears uucp
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re more western digital hd info needed cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca holly ks writes my western digital also has three sets of pins on the back i am using it with another hard drive as well and the settings for the jumpers were written right on the circuit board of the wd drive ma sl well i figured out how the jumpers go now i have quite a different problem that has me perplexed like you wouldn t know i have both drives working the c system formatted and all of my hardware installed only problem is that during the boot up sequence the computer does not want to pass up looking for a system on the a drive reinitialization all goes fine and the bios seems to be configured to what is necessary all the drive tests work but when the thing comes back around to the a drive and there is no disk present it just spins if you insert a disk into drive a with a system however it works fine and boots up ie how installed all my software any additional help on this will be most welcome swood hunting over in michigan don t despair no closed season on opossum porcupine weasel red squirrel skunk starlings feral pigeons english sparrows ground squirrel woodchuck anyway trout season opens the last saturday this month
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help is my monitor dying it sounds like a magnavox with a sick flyback on its way out gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors catone compstat wharton upenn edu tony catone writes in article c geh n d utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes oh yeah i just read in another newsgroup that the t i uses a high quality trinitron tube than is in most monitors the sony s for example and this is where the extra cost comes from it is also where the high bandwidth comes from and the fantastic image and the large image size etc etc it s also where the two annoying lines across the screen one a third down the other two thirds down come from annoying are you actually using one or are you just talking i m sitting in from of one right now and i must say i never notice them yes of course i can see them if i look but annoying no way christian m christian holmgreen joker diku dk mochmch uts uni c dk m sc student university of copenhagen dept of computer science human errors can only be avoided if one can avoid the use of humans
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can t write to floppy ok all you experts need answer quick machine floppy unable to write to a formated disk machine claims that disk is write protected but it is not note it ll read s with no problem please e mail or post
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re difference between vlb and isa eisa in article snx finbol toppoint de jschief finbol toppoint de joerg schlaeger writes better oss os ix are able to handle more than mb of dram if you use eisa bus has someone experience with vlb i think of scsi vlb busmaster the problem is the bit floppy dma controller which is unable to reach more than mb i don t think fd is a problem since fd is much sloooooooowwwwwwer than hd the overhead of double buffering doesn t matter ken nakata i apologize if there are incorrect rude and or impolite expressions in this mail or post they are not intended please consider that english is a second language for me and i don t have full understanding of certain words or each nuance of a phrase thank you ken nakata cis student njit
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how to number prongs of a chip how can one tell which prong of your basic chip is number i realize there is a chunk of the chip missing so that one can orient it correctly so using that hole as a guide how can i count the prongs of the chip to find please help ren hoek internet ren ccwf cc utexas edu it is not i who am crazy it is i who am mad
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with no docs for motherboard 
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pc scanners hello there i am looking out for good scanners gray scale only no color which can be connected to ibm pc compatibles also automatic tray feeding is a must can somebody point out good scanners what are things that one should look for while purchasing a scanner i do not want hand held scanners my preliminary requirements are to dpi dithering half toning various patterns drivers for dos and windows standard file formats what are they automatic feed anything more is there any comparative survery in byte or pc mag which issue please e mail i ll summerize satam satam saathi ernet in kirtikumar g satam satam saathi ncst ernet in scientist network division national center for software technology juhu bombay tel fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re original ibm pc specs in article c jd j i s dutiws twi tudelft nl winfrvk dutiws twi tudelft nl r v kampen writes in article apr ucbeh san uc edu hoffmamc ucbeh san uc edu wr ites a hard drive with xt type controller can be added but i recommend not trying a full height hard drive as i have run into trouble with the w supply not having the oomph to spool up those big heavy platters one way to get the system going with one floppy drive and one hard disk on a watt power supply is to first disconnect the power from the floppy drive than turn on the pc you will notice the hard drive having a real difficult time getting up to speed but it manages when booting is finished plug in your floppy drive now it will work ok i know this is not very user friendly maybe you are better off buying a with watt power supply or something like that willem the newer the drive the less problem you will have the old ten and fifteen meg full heights were power hogs but i have over twenty units that i set up running flawlessly with half height drives and or hard cards dao ns cc lehigh edu don
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re possible faq question about a uart thought i d post this as well as e mail it just in case anyone else is interested in this info in article apr henson cc wwu edu n henson cc wwu edu dan jordan writes hello my question is could someone e mail me the names of manufactures of the and predecsor uarts i have only seen them refered to by number however i would like to find a technical manual for these ics any where i can find out the technical specs for these uarts would be appreciated prefereably the as well as the however one will do i suggest that you go direct to the original and preferred best quality source for all of this just as you would at least should for the chips themselves national semiconductor you can reach them at they no longer package the data sheets in a book as they did when i got mine but you can get them as individual sets of data sheets you want as a minimum the following sets of data sheets ns ins a ns c ins c a ns af application notes yes get these an the ns a uart design and application considerations an a comparison of the ins ns and ns af series of uarts both of the application notes i listed have proven to be at least as valuable as the data sheets themselves more actually an in particular is an exceptionally well written application note that goes into detail about how and why the does what it does and how best to take advantage of it btw they send these out free as long as you don t abuse it later jim include std disclaimer h de n ial internet jim n ial mythical com j graham ieee org icbm n w amateur radio n ial w zbb ft walton beach fl amtor selcal nial e mail me for information about kamterm host mode for kantronics tncs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi wayne smith wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wrote in article qk kvinnndk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes point of view why does scsi have an advantage when it comes to multi tasking data is data and it could be anywhere on the drive can scsi find it faster can it get it off the drive and into the computer faster does it have a better cache system i thought scsi was good at managing a data bus when multiple devices are attached if we are only talking about a single drive explain why scsi is inherently faster at managing data from a hard drive ide integrated device electronics currently the most common standard and is mainly used for medium sized drives can have more than one hard drive asynchronous transfer mb s max why don t you start with the spec sheet of the isa bus first you can quote scsi specs till you re blue in the face but if they exceed the isa bus capability then what s the point who said isa was necessary eisa or vlb are the only interfaces worth investing thousands of dollars e g a new pc s worth of money in who says ide is limited to megs sec what about vlb ide does anyone know how they perform you didn t read to carefully vlb ide uses the same connection mechanism as standard ide if transfer rate is limited by ide whether it s interfaced to isa eisa or vlb matters not so at its lowest setting scsi interface in asynchronous scsi mode averages the through put maximum of ide in asynchronous mode in full scsi mode it blows poor ide out the window down the street and into the garbage can as implimented on what system on mine for one thing scsi blows ide out of the water hands down if ide has better throughput why isn t it used on workstations and file servers the problem becomes can the drive mechanisim keep up with those through put rates and that is where the bottleneck and cost of scsi comes from not the interface itself but more and more from drive mechanisims to use the scsi through put given the original question scsi used only as a single hard drive controller is it then necessary to get a scsi drive that will do at least maybe megs sec for the scsi choice to make any sence what does a meg megs sec scsi drive cost no that s the nice thing on a multitasking os scsi can use both drives at once i ve got unix loaded on one of my pcs along with windogs and the os can only use one of the two ide drives at one time it s pretty ugly i just bought at quantum for my mac at home i paid for it i haven t seen ide drives cheaper the original cga cart back in was i think the original ega card or pga was scsi has stood relatively alone in not coming down in price mainly because we re talking about pc s and not sun s or sparc or sgi or name your favorite unix workstation that is after millions of pc buying decisions over the years scsi has had plenty of time to come down in price no actually we re talking about scsi being expensive simply because nobody did a common interface for the pc if they had a common read easily implemented method of adding scsi to a pc like as in a sun or mac then you d find scsi the connection medium of choice i won t argue that the scsi standard makes for a good well implimented data highway but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive on a single drive scsi is more expensive but you bought your pc for expandibility so you d want to add more drives or whatever the following are why i find scsi intrinsically better than ide a partial list you can add many different types of devices and access them concurrently a scsi device works on many different machines i have a mac and a pc at home and moving hard drives between them is very nice with scsi hook them up and away they go scsi devices work together better than ide devices for instance recently i added an older connor meg ide to a maxtor meg ide the connor must be setup as the slave it will work no other way on scsi you set the address check the termination plug it in and away it goes i have a problem with ide s mutual exclusion i notice that the time it takes to switch from accessing drive c to drive d is quite long as compared to the time it takes to switch from drive c to d on a scsi system under a multitasking os this is very noticable as many things can be going on at once one neat thing that i ve noticed lately a fringe benefit has been the ability to add older almost dead drives as storage on a scsi system with little problem we ve got a bunch of almost dead meg drives that i ve added to my pc i ve now got the interface full but it does allow me to have meg drives meg drive tape drive and meg drive all on the same card simply put scsi is handier than ide no mysterious jumpers to figure out greg you can t go against nature because when you do greg shaw go against nature it s part of nature too shaw feanor xel com love rockets uunet csn xel com shaw
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi grubb bgrubb dante nmsu edu wrote wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes what does a meg megs sec scsi drive cost since the quadra is the only mac able to deal with mb s and hard drives start at mb i have no idea for the mac i have the following these are all external mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb etc i thought you might want the latest prices as of macweek meg int ext m couldn t find one available m m all above are quantum low profile drives the last three are quantum height drives bunch o stuff deleted scsi came from the high end computer world with multitasking os were the standard for the most part hear hear you can t go against nature because when you do greg shaw go against nature it s part of nature too shaw feanor xel com love rockets uunet csn xel com shaw
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide mfm in same machine how if anyone out there can help i would greatly appreciate it this christmas i built a computer out of used parts for my father in law the disk drive that i installed was a seagate mfm anyway he now he would like to put another hd into this system i don t want to buy another mfm the only reason why i used an mfm in the first place is that it was free would i need a special ide hd controller also if i do need a special ide controller where can i purchase one how much are they please send any responses to lynn vax mankato msus edu thanks in advance stan tyree
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	maxtor drive geometry jumpers 
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help my gateway freezes up help my computer from gateway is freezing up on me gateway tech support couldn t help me they want more specifics on when it freezes up i did anyway here it is if the keyboard is left idle in dos for more than minutes i can type on the command line but as soon as i hit a carraige return the computer locks up this will happen almost every time whether i ve just booted up reset or finished using a dos program everything works fine if i don t let it sit windows is a different story if i let the machine sit while in windows for minutes or more it does not freeze up however i do get frequent application errors that kick me out of an application unexpectedly losing my work i just don t know if this is a hardware or software problem any help in diagnosis or things to try would be greatly appreciated p s i do not run any tsrs except smartdrive and qaplus diagnostics says everything is good system is sx crystalscan gateway monitor vlb ati ultra pro using mach driver build winchester mb hd microsoft mouse thanks el guapo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conner cp g info please i have a conner disk model cp g mb with no info at all the only thing i know is that is normally used with compaq machines please send me information on switch settings geometry and so on it looks like a normal ide disk but is it possible to use it with a standard ide controller michael michael thurbin sommarvagen phone s vaxjoe fax sweden
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	looking for replacement for a jvc disk hi i got hold of an old zenith laptop with model zwl the hard disk is dead but the rest seems to work i took the zenith apart and found a very strange disk for wich i now try to replace the disk is marked jvc model jd r has anyone any specs on this disk or suggestion where i can find it or a cheap replacement for it thanks for your help michael michael thurbin michael pcmith rks se michael thurbin sommarvagen phone s vaxjoe fax sweden
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re s video card at different address in article qmrdd h umcc umcc umich edu jon umcc umcc umich edu jon zeeff writes i d like to add a second s based video card to my system does anyone know of a company that sells a card that can coexist with another one all i really need is color text on one monitor and fast color graphics on the other probably just a configurable address would do it for what it s worth i haven t confirmed it a diamond tech rep told me that all s based video cards use port addresses x e and x e if this is true it appears that you cannot use more than one s card in your system lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that is a percent sign in my network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	turbomodem complete pc question i m trying to transfer some software between two machines and i m having real trouble my own intel k v v bis v v bis works fine i just talk to it at k and everything comes out clear this other modem at the other machine is a turbomodem from the complete pc the machines are in seperate houses so a direct serial link is impossible and copying this much data to disk is a pain easier to turn the machines on for a few hours and go see a movie no this is not pirated software i am having no end of trouble trying to set it up it will dial and connect just fine at baud but if i try to set the comm at k k or kbps the stupid thing connects but just gives garbage it connects k his machine a dx has a afn uart so that s not the problem it seems to me that the stupid thing wants to talk to a comm program at bps even though it will take dialing instructions at k and respond ok etc to other commands i don t have a comm program that can do precisely k i looked at the manual but it was unclear all i know is i didn t have this trouble with the intel it came ready to connect this way do i need to initialize it any way in particular also it s using v bis and v and mnp when connecting here i e at since our tests at k are zip so far but it doesn t say so there any ideas btw i tried the initialization string that i use for my modem but it just gives error on that one moscow a grandfather who taught literature in an orphanage has gone on trial in rostov on the don after confessing to more than gruesome sexual murders whose victims included children as young as eight events in modern history from the sunday mail apr
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	faq on cyrix dlc is there a faq on cyrix dlc could anyone please repost it or email to me if i missed it thanks in advance alexander poylisher internet apoylis inode com fidonet blue wave qwk v
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article c lkev hpj feanor xel com shaw feanor xel com greg shaw writes why don t you start with the spec sheet of the isa bus first you can quote scsi specs till you re blue in the face but if they exceed the isa bus capability then what s the point who said isa was necessary eisa or vlb are the only interfaces worth investing thousands of dollars e g a new pc s worth of money in then don t complain maybe it wasn t you that scsi was so expensive on pc s because all we ve had until a year or two ago was the isa bus ie no one buys scsi for isa because isa is slow are you saying that scsi on an isa bus is not an automatic winner when compared to ide you didn t read to carefully vlb ide uses the same connection mechanism as standard ide if transfer rate is limited by ide whether it s interfaced to isa eisa or vlb matters not i get different transfer rates out of my ide when i change my isa bus speed on mine for one thing scsi blows ide out of the water hands down if ide has better throughput why isn t it used on workstations and file servers ide is just a variant of the old ibm mfm at controller at least that s how it looks from a software point of view it was never meant to be an all encompassing protocal standard to be implimented across different platforms is there any argument that ide can or can t transfer data from the ide drive at least as fast as the drive is able to provide the data are scsi versions of ide drives able to deliver higher sustained transfer rates to their scsi interface because of a higher rpm platter different arrangement of heads etc given the original question scsi used only as a single hard drive controller is it then necessary to get a scsi drive that will do at least maybe megs sec for the scsi choice to make any sence what does a meg megs sec scsi drive cost no that s the nice thing on a multitasking os scsi can use both drives at once i ve got unix loaded on one of my pcs along with windogs and the os can only use one of the two ide drives at one time it s pretty ugly if data is going from one drive to another and if scsi has the ability to perform that transfer without the data having to go through the cpu or main memory then yes that is the optimal way to do it as far as i know ide can t do that but when the cpu wants data from both drives data to be stored in main memory are you saying that scsi can grab data from both drives at the same time and store transfer that data to main memory also at the same time working off irq and dma channel on an isa or whatever bus i just bought at quantum for my mac at home i paid for it i haven t seen ide drives cheaper a friend of mine just got a maxtor meg ide drive for that s million bytes or mega bytes with the basic interface he gets close to meg sec transfer on his does your figure include a few hundred for scsi drivers no actually we re talking about scsi being expensive simply because nobody did a common interface for the pc if they had a common read easily implemented method of adding scsi to a pc like as in a sun or mac then you d find scsi the connection medium of choice so you re saying that scsi would have been the default interface type considering that the vast majority of pc s don t have cd rom drives or tape backups or etc that most pc s only have or had hard drive and run dos that scsi hard drives cost a lot more than mfm or rll drives at the time and how common were scsi drives under megs to years ago there s a lot more than the lack of a common interface card that prevented scsi from becoming the connection medium of choice i won t argue that the scsi standard makes for a good well implimented data highway but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive on a single drive scsi is more expensive but on that point is it faster this is what all this is about do you get more performance for the money for all the people that will only have a single hard drive in their system regardless of the os will the scsi choice really give them more performance than ide but you bought your pc for expandibility so you d want to add more drives or whatever true but expandibility can also start on the bus which means the option is there for cd rom drives or tape backups that run off their own cards you can add many different types of devices and access them concurrently no argument this is always held up to the first time scsi buyer as the best reason but how many scsi devices will the first time scsi buyer eventually acquire again does it make sense to go scsi for a single hard drive system a scsi device works on many different machines i have a mac and a pc at home and moving hard drives between them is very nice with scsi hook them up and away they go with all the postings on the scsi i or ii specs are you really sure that pc and apple scsi hard drives are compatible and even if they are is the data accessible from either machine ie are there no formatting partitioning or file table differences is it really plug n play scsi devices work together better than ide devices for instance recently i added an older connor meg ide to a maxtor meg ide the connor must be setup as the slave it will work no other way on scsi you set the address check the termination plug it in and away it goes so the c drive on the connor becomes a logical d drive to dos is this really a problem i have a problem with ide s mutual exclusion i notice that the time it takes to switch from accessing drive c to drive d is quite long as compared to the time it takes to switch from drive c to d on a scsi system under a multitasking os this is very noticable as many things can be going on at once after having two ide drives in my system for temporary file transfers i have never seen any differences when switching between drives nor have i ever seen any differences when transfering files between drives or to from the same drive one neat thing that i ve noticed lately a fringe benefit has been the ability to add older almost dead drives as storage on a scsi system with little problem we ve got a bunch of almost dead meg drives that i ve added to my pc i ve now got the interface full but it does allow me to have meg drives meg drive tape drive and meg drive all on the same card that is nice as long as the power supply can keep up i do believe that there is the possibility for up to ide drives on a pc simply put scsi is handier than ide no mysterious jumpers to figure out but what about mysterious and expensive drivers to figure out at least ide doesn t require drivers that consume precious conventional dos memory
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	jumper settings for omti esdi controller subject says it all i m looking for the jumper settings for an sms omti at bus esdi controller card thanks in advance richard richard solomon ncr microelectronics aeroplaza drive richard solomon colospgs ncr com colorado springs co uunet ncrcom ncr mpd richard solomon
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide esdi coexistence hello all you the net are my last resort or i ll just change my job this might be a faq e g mixing controllers but haven t seen any sys ami bios and your run of the mill multi i o card with serials paral floppies and ide controller clone gw ex there are no jumpers affecting the hd or ctrller quantum prodrive lps m type cyl hds spt pb i want to bring in this nd hand neat price maxtor xt b e m ms bios type ctrller manages the real geom cyl hds spt western digital wd v se esdi ctrller no floppies jumpers set irq hw port addr f and bios addr cc c and other floppy format stuff goal have the wd esdi as a secondary controller and have both disks simultaneously working being able to boot from the esdi too would be a nice bonus but is not expected ultimate goal have room for linux et al ex of scheme i have in mind boot from ide hd or floppy and mount the esdi as root not booting from esdi or even from hd is acceptable i have tried numerous all combinations to no avail they work alone or can coexist witout hang ups but can t access the esdi or the ide depending on setup jumpers useful suggestions might be how do i tell the bios setup about two ctrllers i guess the nd hd is expected to hang off the same ctrller as the st do i need some driver to make it work some new bios chip for any of these cards do i have to buy another controller to make them hds happy ide is cheaper esdi is hard to find and rather costly i m not rich or i wouldnt try to scavenge around so soft slns are preferred adapters of some sort i can hold a soldering iron and can change a chip or put a jumper also useful bbs or hot line of western digital ftp archives with relevant info expert stores in toronto ontario area that would be a miracle haven t seen any really knowledgeable ppl in a while any hints into inner workings of the system anything else that helped you in similar situations prayers direct or posted replies are ok many thanks cat catalin ivan email ivan iro umontreal ca tel human computer interaction humain machine universite de montreal informatique et recherche operationelle
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re toshiba b cd rom any problems msmith beta tricity wsu edu mark smith writes i m thinking about getting a toshiba cd rom and hooking it up through the scsi port on a media vision pro audio spectrum sound board does anybody have this configuration out there if so does it work for anybody in general who has the toshiba cd rom drive have you had any hadware problems door not opening scratched disks door not closing getting stuck or not closing all the way cd holder jamming and any other cd related problems i have one and it is my favorite cd rom drive so far i also have a nec and have had experience with several other drives various phillips drives the is faster than the nec i like its door better the nec needs hands the xa handling the nec needs to be re booted to go from xa to rom while the does it on the fly all in all i am seriously considering replacing my nec with another toshiba jws
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re please help identify this old com ethernet card simon moscow uidaho edu mike simon writes in article qhvuninnhau emory mathcs emory edu splee pd org seng poh lee speedy writes i have an old com ethernet card pc at bus that came out of a apollo workstation i m trying to identify it in order to use it on a pc the assembly number is rev and it is a bit card circa it has an aui port as well as a bnc coax connection it has selectable address for the bios io dma and irq locations via berg jumpers it also appears to have a intel processor on board presumably for buffering the ethernet chip appears to be an intel a pin dip package is this chip an equivalent to the used in some cards there is also a pin plcc chip called a link i got two very similar sounding boards for dirt cheap too their assy numbers were not series but your description fits otherwise they are com c s aka etherlink plus cards check out ftp com com there are drivers and diagnostic programs for just about any and all com cards i concluded that my card was the after i ran their diagnostic program for c succesfully passes with flying colours anybody know of packet drivers for these cards under os juha liukkonen aka jliukkon cc helsinki fi university of helsinki dept of lost souls trust me i know what i m doing sledge hammer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes i won t argue that the scsi standard makes for a good well implimented data highway but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive i have been following this thread and figured i d throw in my two cents the amiga zorro ii bus is comparable with the isa bus vs mhz the amiga has had a pre emptative multi tasking os since and can operate with mb ram scsi is used almost exclusively on these systems a scsi controller that transfers data by dma allows the cpu to request data from the hard drive and continue working while the controller gets the data and moves it to memory a controller that allows reselection can operate even better with multiple devices this is espically true with scsi tape units for example when rewinding or formatting a tape the command is issued to the controller and the bus is released to allow access to other devices on the bus this greatly increases productivity or at least do something else while backing up your hard drive which happens to be what i am doing while reading this group its a long story but i still use ide on my except for the cdrom which thanks to scsi i can move between both machines if and when scsi is better standardized and supported on the ibm clone machines i plan to completely get rid of ide wayne summer amiga simply the best palm bay fl us x wayne amtower spacecoast org quote of the week don t hate microsoft because because they are microsoft though hate them because their products are lame found in c s ibm pc misc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re toshiba b cd rom any problems in article apr serval net wsu edu msmith beta tricity wsu edu mark smith writes once in a while you have to put in a good word for something that works well i have had no problems with my toshiba it works very well with dos and os for os you don t need to load any special drivers the installation will detect that it is a toshiba drive and you are done btw it s also very fast carlos rimola sarti email rimola csisdn com connective strategies inc car btr com isdn pri connectivity phone
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article wayne uv amtower spacecoast org wayne amtower spacecoast orgx newssoftware grn f by mike schwartz michael b smith writes in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes i won t argue that the scsi standard makes for a good well implimented data highway but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive i have been following this thread and figured i d throw in my two cents the amiga zorro ii bus is comparable with the isa bus vs mhz except for the fact that it s superior in just about every way to the isa bus the amiga has had a pre emptative multi tasking os since and can operate with mb ram scsi is used almost exclusively on these systems except for the new systems that now ship only with ide controllers toodlepip marc em
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with olivetti floppy we are trying to connect an olivetti xm floppy drive as the second drive on a panasonic machine it seems to sort of talk to it gets it spinning and stepping but gives a disk not ready error there are two jumpers which seem to work best open a position dip switch and a position dip switch we don t know how to set the dip switches and think that may be the problem any information or advice other than junk the stupid thing would be most appreciated thanks email reply preferred jdresser tymnet com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article wayne uv amtower spacecoast org wayne amtower spacecoast orgx newssoftware grn f by mike schwartz michael b smith writes but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive a scsi controller that transfers data by dma allows the cpu to request data from the hard drive and continue working while the controller gets the data and moves it to memory ide also uses dma techniques i believe floppy controller also uses dma and most a d boards also use dma dma is no big deal and has nothing to do directly with scsi for example when rewinding or formatting a tape the command is issued to the controller and the bus is released to allow access to other devices on the bus this greatly increases productivity or at least do something else while backing up your hard drive which happens to be what i am doing while reading this group you can thank your software for that if dos had a few more brains it could format floppies etc while you were doing something else the hardware will support it but dos at least won t again this has nothing to do with scsi its a long story but i still use ide on my except for the cdrom which thanks to scsi i can move between both machines if and when scsi is better standardized and supported on the ibm clone machines i plan to completely get rid of ide and if you stick with dos you ll wonder why you can t multitask again i ask why can t a unix or os type os do all the miraculous things with an ide harddrive that it can with a single scsi hard drive
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pc junior usable my fiance has a pc junior and wants to upgrade to a full does anyone know if we could use the monitor it came with on a new machine i heard it s mcga or ega but not sure which also does it use cards so we can use the drive controller floppy etc thanks for the help bryan bryan welch amateur radio n sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer it s all opinion everything so there
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	baud spirit ii modem hi world i want to buy a spirit ii data fax modem made in u s a have anyone heard about it or using it what is it s performance is it stable or not please give me some advice in addition i heard a news from local distributor that a new baud ccitt rom the distributor said it will be the new ccitt standard for this modem will be produced at the end of this year after replaced the old rom by this rom this spirit ii can transfer data at baud without any hardware alternation is this new true and possible would the telephone line really able to transfer at such high speed please give me some advice at last can anyone tell me how to contact with the central dealer quickcomm inc i am not sure whether it in u s a or not please leave me a e mail thank you very much leung from hong kong university
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re where to buy pentium motherboard has anybody bought a pentium motherboard if so or you where i can buy it please send me a e mail thank you in advance pentium processors motherboards are not available to the general public as of yet intel has released them to companies such as gateway and dell to do testing etc it ll be a while mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with decision i m buying a new system this week to replace my brain dead and could use some feedback on a couple systems i m looking at if anyone is familiar with them the system that looks the most interesting is the budget vlb tower for about delivered it offers vlb mb mb ide a mitsumi cd rom with software bundle media vision sound board ctx ni k cache and the usual drives ports os software since my budget is for a system it seems almost too good to be true which may mean it is too good to be true of course among other things i ve never seen a review of the budget systems or their parent company micro smart or of the motherboard they are using the aetana any feedback would be appreciated in a similar vein the second system i m considering midwest micro s elite vesa tower with a diamond viper mb midwest micro mi monitor is one i ve never seen reviewed anywhere i m familiar with the firm but not the product line and some idea of their quality would be abig benefit here as well any other suggestions in the price range would be appreciated my greatest needs are speed and graphics capabilities email response would be greatly appreciated thanks the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community against his will is to prevent harm to others his own good either physical or moral is not a sufficient warrant john stuart mill rick adams adamsr ais org adamsr norwich bitnet anonymous users may send to ap poly n kbt rain com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes i just bought at quantum for my mac at home i paid for it i haven t seen ide drives cheaper a friend of mine just got a maxtor meg ide drive for that s million bytes or mega bytes with the basic interface he gets close to meg sec transfer on his does your figure include a few hundred for scsi drivers since the mac uses only scsi for hard drives yes the figure includes a hundred for scsi drivers this is sloppy people and dumb but on that point is it faster this is what all this is about do you get more performance for the money ok once again with the scsi spec list scsi with a scsi controler chip synchronous range is indeed mb s asynchronous range is slower at mb s scsi with a scsi controller chip mb s with mb s burst bit note the increase in speed the mac quadra uses this version of scsi so it does exist some pcs use this set up too scsi bit scsi mode mb s with mb s burst for those who want scsi but don t want to pay for the bit or bit hardware or mess with the scsi software controllers usable by scsi devices with close to bit scsi speeds scsi bit wide or fast mode mb s with mb s burst scsi bit wide and fast mb s with mb s burst on the other interfaces let dxb psuvm psu edu speak ide ranges from mb s again synchronous and asynchronous modes with asynchronous much slower range mb s esdi is always mb s although there are some non standard versions one problem is the inconsitant use of the term scsi in articles and by people its proper meaning is the set of scsi interfaces composed of scsi and scsi look at the inconsitant use of scsi in the below quote my comments in pc magazine april although scsi is twice as fast as esdi this is asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip faster than ide this is both asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip and bit scsi to read consitantly the quote should read asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip although asynchronous scsi is twice as fast as esdi one third the speed of ide or asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip or bit scsi although scsi with a scsi chip and bit scsi are eight times as fast as esdi faster than ide note the nonuse of scsi by itself this eliminates ambaguity scsi drivers are somewhat reasonable while bit and bit scsi drivers are very expansive bit scsi can use scsi drivers with little speed degridation the mac quadra does exactly this if we are to continue this thread state clearly which scsi you are talking about scsi or scsi or scsi over all scsi and scsi it does make a difference
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re pc junior usable in article apr sernews raleigh ibm com europa tomcat raleigh ibm com welch bryan writes my fiance has a pc junior and wants to upgrade to a full does anyone know if we could use the monitor it came with on a new machine i heard it s mcga or ega but not sure which also does it use cards so we can use the drive controller floppy etc the only things you ll be able to salvage from the junior are the floppy drives and monitor the floppies are k and the monitor is cga but you will need an adaptor cable to use it the junior does not use standard cards unless you re really strapped for cash you should just junk the thing and buy new stuff dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article qpu uinnbt dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes since the mac uses only scsi for hard drives yes the figure includes a hundred for scsi drivers this is sloppy people and dumb what group is this this is not a mac group ok once again with the scsi spec list why the spec list again we are talking scsi on a pc not on a mac or a unix box and we are talking isa bus or possibly eisa or vlb this isin t comp periphs scsi tell me what the performance figures are with a single scsi drive on a pc with an isa or eisa or vlb bus theoretical performance figures are not relevant to this group or this debate i m sure that there are some platforms out there that can handle the megs sec of scsi xyz wide n fast but the pc isin t one of them if we are to continue this thread state clearly which scsi you are talking about scsi or scsi or scsi over all scsi and scsi it does make a difference well maybe if the scsi design people had their act together than maybe all pc s would have built in scsi ports by now
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	network i have heard that there is something called a network that allows two pc s to be networked by joining their serial ports does someone out there know anything about this i would greatly appreciate e mail on this thanks tschewe first etc bc ca wq
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re buslogic b questions in article tigerc k oy gx netcom com tiger netcom com tiger zhao writes goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes can anyone tell me if this card works with the march os beta i believe so since the buslogic cards have proven to be very reliable in os the buslogic cards have an os driver that does work with the march beta support for the buslogic cards is not included with os any longer if you wish to install the beta from the cd rom you will need to rem out the adaptec device drivers as they have a nasty tendency to crash the buslogic cards when os attempts to use them thanks adaptec so you add the buslogic drivers to the config sys on the cd rom boot disk and rem out the adaptec drivers then you install the whole st half of the beta and it won t work ibm nicely copies in the adaptec drivers once again thanks ibm so rem out the adaptec drivers once more and reboot if you have everything in the right order it will work things are pretty smooth through the rest of the installation except os will try to install the adaptec scsi drivers once again at the end so you are off to more rem statements and more fun the bt bk comes with drivers and costs the same as the adaptec cards that do not come with drivers the dos drivers work great this card can easily be configured to work with different sets of i o ports and you can use multiple host adapters in one machine if you get a new card it will also be able to support up to gb drives under dos hope this helps dan dan galpin galpin cats ucsc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	data path width from to bits but speed less then double in evolution of x data path width has been doubled from to t bits but the speed of data processing has not increased at same rate the question is why what is relationship bettween data path width and data processing speed thanks in advance for the input robert
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	address interliving what is address interliving and memmory modules interliving thanks in advance for the info robert
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how to search for bad memory chips in article n s b w w c cat uucp david c cat uucp dave writes i came upon this idea i would like to share with everyone to check for bad memory chips create a boot disk with emm himem sys and ramdrive sys in the config autoexec bat boot the pc to create a ram drive as large as possible use a disk repair utility i use ndd run it on the ram drive yes it will run its only a device driver run or so passes they go very quick if your machine fails there is a definate bad memory chip if your machine passes there is a conflict with programs you are loading in memory it s an interesting idea but the worst case data patterns developed to test magnetic media are totally different than the patterns used to detect common faults in memory chips bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re buslogic b questions beta support for the buslogic cards is not included with os any longer why not this is rather disappointing if you wish to install the beta from the cd rom you will need to rem out the adaptec device drivers as they have a nasty tendency to crash the buslogic cards when os attempts to use them thanks adaptec yep that s cause the latest and presumably all future adaptec drivers look for the string adaptec or something to that effect in the cards bios
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	seagate mb ide jumper question since the losers that sold me the hard disk for my computer are so generous i need the info to set this drive from master to slave any help would be greatly appreciated please reply via e mail incidentally avoid purchasing a computer from acs in endicott ny jeff four out of five electrons prefer holes for their mutual annhiliation needs boycott sierra ignore anybody who purports to be a serious windows user support new makers of hardware and software buy canadian music quit smoking take up running fm synthesis is the cga of audio jks ritvax isc rit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	simms and sipps mb needed misc entrepreneurs misc wanted pnw forsale uw pc ibm seattle forsale uw forsale misc forsale misc forsale computers d misc forsale computers pc clone misc forsale co omputers other distribution world from yuri atmos washington edu reply to yuri atmos washington edu organization subject simms and sipps mb needed keywords i need simms and sipps mb but price should be around piece i am waiting for an offer yuri yulaev th ave ne seattle wa home work fax internet yuri atmos washington edu uucp uw beaver atmos washington edu yuri
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith write in article qpu uinnbt dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes since the mac uses only scsi for hard drives yes the figure includes a hundred for scsi drivers this is sloppy people and dumb what group is this this is not a mac group nice of you to delete both your responce and the item that prompted it to whit i just bought at quantum for my mac at home i paid for it i haven t seen ide drives cheaper to which you responded a friend of mine just got a maxtor meg ide drive for that s million bytes or mega bytes with the basic interface he gets close to meg sec transfer on his does your figure include a few hundred for scsi drivers to which i correctly pointed out the following since the mac uses only scsi for hard drives yes the figure includes a hundred for scsi drivers this is sloppy people and dumb as i said this is sloppy and dumb you should resounded by discounting the mac not giving maxtor meg ide drive for example by giving an example you give the implied consent that for mac info to be included in the scsi discusion ok once again with the scsi spec list why the spec list again we are talking scsi on a pc not on a mac or a unix box and we are talking isa bus or possibly eisa or vlb ok i will do this v e r y s l o w l y so you can understand reguardless of whether it is a mac or a pc scsi and scsi are different from each other as is asynchronous and synchronous scsi all of these have different speeds and costs lumping them all together as scsi is dumb and sloppy take again the quote later on as an example of the problem in the pc world the spec list was so that you knew where the numbers were coming from in the article it shows the article is correct in it staments about scsi but not consitant this isin t comp periphs scsi with the way this thread has gone how do you tell tell me what the performance figures are with a single scsi drive on a pc with an isa or eisa or vlb bus already gave them you keep deleting them so here are the specs on everybody again with some added info scsi scsi controler chip asynchronous range mb s synchronous range mb s both common to the pc world difference is mainly in software not hardware scsi scsi controller chip also called scsi bit mb s with mb s burst this is advertised as scsi in byte for the pc and at these speeds not the mac the pc i have not seen the following for either the mac or the pc scsi bit wide or fast mode mb s with mb s burst scsi bit wide and fast mb s with mb s burst on the other interfaces let dxb psuvm psu edu speak ide ranges from mb s asynchronous range mb s infered from byte synchronous range mb s esdi is always mb s although there are some non standard versions wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes theoretical performance figures are not relevant to this group or this debate i m sure that there are some platforms out there that can handle the megs sec of scsi xyz wide n fast but the pc isin t one of them note that i also give the average through put for scsi which holds true a mac or ibm pc clone with the correct hardware and software and since pc adversizements are using theoretical performance figures why cannot we if we are to continue this thread state clearly which scsi you are talking about scsi or scsi or scsi over all scsi and scsi it does make a difference well maybe if the scsi design people had their act together than maybe all pc s would have built in scsi ports by now with pc articles like the following it is obvious that the problem is not with scsi but with the people who report it like you look at the inconsitant use of scsi in the below quote my comments in although scsi is twice as fast as esdi this is asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip faster than ide this is both asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip and bit scsi pc magazine april the article is confused not scsi the term is a mess from inconsitant use not because the interface itself is a mess scsi means the set of scsi interfaces composed of scsi and scsi not scsi as some people want to use it to read consitantly the quote should read asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip although asynchronous scsi is twice as fast as esdi one third the speed of ide or asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip or bit scsi although scsi with a scsi chip and bit scsi are eight times as fast as esdi faster than ide note the nonuse of scsi by itself this eliminates ambaguity if we are to continue this thread state clearly which scsi you are talking about scsi or scsi or scsi over all scsi and scsi lumping everything into scsi as scsi is sloppy wrong and dumb inconsitant scsi and scsi usage is also a problem clean it up now or have a mess like svga was several years ago because everybody and his uncle slapped scsa an their own monitor inteface scsi is standarized unlike svga was years ago except in terminaology
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help my pc freezes perry egelmeers perry wswiop win tue nl wrote ladanyi cs cornell edu la szlo lada nyi writes problem occasionaly the machine freezes at least that s what i thought but recently i discovered that the machine works just the keyboard freezes and the clock drops down from turbo mhz to standard mhz mode perhaps you hit the s control s try q i know it doesn t explain the clock rate drop we had the same problem in our company we changed the keyboard bios and after that everything went fine our dealer told us that some boards of that series have a defect kbd bios michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re western digital hd info needed holly ks cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca wrote my western digital also has three sets of pins on the back i am using it with another hard drive as well and the settings for the jumpers were written right on the circuit board of the wd drive ma sl the jumper is used if the other drive a conner cp xxx no jumper set drive is alone ma drive is master sl drive is slave michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re com ports modem mouse conflict really phil hunt phil howtek mv com wrote i m kind of new at the pc stuff my machine has serial ports com and and share same irqs you mean i can t plug a mouse into com and a modem into com and expect both to work no but some os s coherent etc are able to drive one of the ports in polled mode without using the irq in your example after accessing the modem the mouse won t work until you reboot because the irq is used by the modem if answer is no should i change irq s for com ports to be different and does it really matter which irq i set the ports too yes you can change the irq s for com but it depends on your other hardware com uses irq com irq if you have only one printerport irq you can change com to irq normally nd printer for com you can assign irq if its free as far as i know no other irq can be used until your i o card is bit and caould access irq s michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa bus pin question re diamond speedstar x today i recieved a in warranty replacement for my diamond speedstar x on the card i ve noticed a few changes mostly there is a new jumper labeled jp the card is revision a my detective work has shown that this jumper simply connects disconnects the bale line on the pin part of the isa bus the question i have is simple to those people who own this revision of the speedstar x what does the manual claim that this jumper does to anyone with an isa reference what is the function of the bale line on a related note are there any ftp sites which contain a descriptive reference to the isa bus my motherboard manual has a simple pin to signal name chart but that is it douglas douglas r pokorny drp camelot bradley edu cs major geisert hall resident conveniently located in the bradley university armpit of illinois peoria
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re int h for joysticks is slow in ql i inn uh no names nerdc ufl edu lioness oak circa ufl edu writes i m using int h to read my joystick and it is hideously slow something like of my cpu time is being spent reading the joystick and this is in a program that does nothing but printf and joyread if you only do read print then there is no reason for the joystick stuff not to take of the time even if it is efficient the problem is that a lot of programs trap int h like smartdrv and so it is a slow as hell interface can i read the joystick port in a reasonably safe fashion via polling and that isn t platform or clockspeed specific the truth is that int h joystick reading is slow i read it directly from the hardware port note that doing so exposes you to intermittent disturbance from interrupts so you may want to read say twice in a row and keep the lower results don t just turn interrupts off it may prove detrimental to the health of any high speed comms and other devices here is an example of how to do this joy c an example of how to read pc joystick port by polling the hardware port directly uses inp outp for byte port access will timeout when int count counts up to zero this sample reads one port a is presented and b is in the comments you can read both at once by merging the two but it will time out when either joystick is not connected there is no need to optimize this routine since it runs for as long as the joystick circuitry needs written by eyal lebedinsky eyal ise canberra edu au include stdio h include stdlib h include conio h extern int readjoy int x int y int b int b define joyport x define xjoy x for joystick b use x define yjoy x for joystick b use x define xymask xjoy yjoy define but x for joystick b use x define but x for joystick b use x int returns if ok readjoy int x int y int b int b register int count register char temp joy temp char xymask count outp joyport set trigger do temp joy char inp joyport if temp xjoy x count if temp yjoy y count while count temp joy xymask b joy but b joy but return count this main is for demonstration int main int rc x y b b printf hit any key to exit n while kbhit rc readjoy x y b b printf r d d d d d rc x y b b
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	looking for large mono color vga monitor i am looking for a monitor or larger that could do x with and a card ps i guess i would prefere and mono later becuase of lower price please email me the brand model condition and asking price please include this message for reference s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h w
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mitsumi cd rom drivers fix for qemm just to let all you faithful mitsumi cd rom owners ever notice qemm can t load you cd rom driver high ain t it a bitch well you can call up quarterdeck s bbs and get a hold of the new drivers that can be loaded high sorry i don t have their on me i tested them out and the seem to work great small nose loose girls no nipples iczer curls gerard pinzone gpinzone tasha poly edu v join the eca wehrmacht kill cm
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cd speedway any good anybody use cd speedway out there is it as good as they say i hate waiting around for my cd to finish loading the next level in wc and the such how much memory does it eat up small nose loose girls no nipples iczer curls gerard pinzone gpinzone tasha poly edu v join the eca wehrmacht kill cm
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	leading edge computer buy i saw the following computer in a store and wanted to know if this is a good computer or does someone see something wrong with it i also would like to switch the motherboard later when this computer becomes too slow does anyone know if this is possible with a leading edge computer or will it be difficult to find a motherboard that will fit in this computer any help will be greatly appreciated leading edge model pc e intel sx mhz cpu supports intel overdrive clock doubling processors what is this upgradable to dx mb ram upgradable to mb kb internal cache mb mb disk drives mb hard drive x vga video resolution mb video ram colors available bit isa expansion slots one local bus socket bit isa compatible drive bays external one pin centronics type parallel port rs c serial ports pin one pin analog video connector one ps compatible mouse port watt power supply key keyboard and mouse included software includes windows dos microsoft works for windows the store wants without monitor for this is it a good price thanks nicole bell at temple university philly pa e mail address u s astro ocis temple edu prodigy jpkn a if you re not part of the solution you re part of the precipitate steven wright
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	more adaptec b problems okay here is my configuration gateway c micronics isa mb ram wd mb ide hd drive c st a mb ide hd drive d adaptec scsi b controller with scsi bios enabled seagate st n mb scsi drive alrighty when i boot up i get the adaptec bios message but it says something like drive c installed drive d installed adaptec scsi bios not installed and i can t get to the seagate drive i go into phoenixbios setup remove the entry for drive d and boom i can access the seagate is there a way to get two ide drives and the seagate at the same time i have aspi dos sys but it just hangs the system brian
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re booting from b drive glang slee srl ford com gordon lang writes david weisberger djweisbe unix amherst edu wrote i have a drive as drive a how can i make the system boot from my b drive optimally the computer would be able to boot from either a or b checking them in order for a bootable disk but if i have to switch cables around and simply switch the drives so that it can t boot disks that s ok also boot b won t do the trick for me thanks davebo we had the same issue plague us for months on our gateway i finally got tired of it so i permanently interchanged the drives the only reason i didn t do it in the first place was because i had several bootable s and some based install disks which expected the a drive i order all new software and upgrades to be and the number of stupid install programs that can t handle an alternate drive are declining with time the ones i had are now upgraded and as for the bootable s i just cut replacements if switching the drives is not an option you might be able to wire up a drive switch to your computer chasis i haven t tried it but i think it would work as long as it is wired carefully i did this i use a relay radio shack pdt instead of a huge switch this way if the relay breaks my drives will still work it works fine but you may still need to change the cmos before the drive switch will work correctly for some programs rp roger c pao gordius bagdad mts rpao rpao mts mivj ca us
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	jumper settings for microscience hd ok i ll try one more time with this one if anyone out there has any information on microscience hard drives and how to set the jumpers and where they are for master slave configurations i will gladly accept any info as i have a m er sitting in my room collecting dust just waiting for me to install huge applications thanks in advance and yes i regulary check the ide harddisk spec that is posted here adam cheal i y rick cs ubc ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re leading edge computer buy in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu u s astro ocis temple edu cis sec spr writes i saw the following computer in a store and wanted to know if this is a good computer or does someone see something wrong with it i also would like to stuff deleted leading edge model pc e intel sx mhz cpu supports intel overdrive clock doubling processors what is this upgradable to dx mb ram upgradable to mb kb internal cache mb mb disk drives mb hard drive x vga video resolution mb video ram colors available bit isa expansion slots one local bus socket bit isa compatible drive bays external one pin centronics type parallel port rs c serial ports pin one pin analog video connector one ps compatible mouse port watt power supply key keyboard and mouse included software includes windows dos microsoft works for windows the store wants without monitor for this is it a good price thanks i recently bought a leading edge dx mini tower case and everything works fine leading edge seems to be a decent brand and what not i would tend to say that it is a decent deal the only things you might want to be wary about is that my l e computer has a back plane mounted motherboard ie the motherboard itself is a card that can be plugged in to a backplane some people don t like these configurations the second thing is that whoever set up my computer at the factory didn t really know what they were doing the installed windows video driver didn t even take advantage of the svga card monitor look forward to configuring the system optimally yourself anyone have a coat hanger my brain itches impster umcc ais org if i was a turnip would i be revered and charles budensiek worshipped like i would deserve to be ph ask if you want it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re esdi with ide yes it should be possible in article apr monu cc monash edu au els r fawlty eng monash edu au g chow writes in article qegfd dqi wsinis info win tue nl monty wsinis info win tue nl guido leenders writes hi is it possible to use an esdi controller with hdd together with an ide harddisk controller in one isa system i ve read stuff about secondary controllers does this trick work thanx in advance guido monty win tue nl i have the same question as guido it is possible to use the esdi drive as a master and the ide drive as the slave i can definitily say that you can use an rll as master and ide as slave as i have just upgraded my machine with a mb ide and custom controller mdl ci extended ide controller while maintaining my rll d wren as master drive the trick is the controller which supports up to ide drives while coexisting with existing controllers mfm rll esdi scsi so according to the documentation it should work with esdi and i can assure you it works with rll bruce powell email bss brucep vd seqeb gov au
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re more adaptec b problems lioness maple circa ufl edu wrote okay here is my configuration gateway c micronics isa mb ram wd mb ide hd drive c st a mb ide hd drive d adaptec scsi b controller with scsi bios enabled seagate st n mb scsi drive alrighty when i boot up i get the adaptec bios message but it says something like drive c installed drive d installed adaptec scsi bios not installed and i can t get to the seagate drive i go into phoenixbios setup remove the entry for drive d and boom i can access the seagate is there a way to get two ide drives and the seagate at the same time i have aspi dos sys but it just hangs the system brian there is a simple answer if my memory serves me the scsi bios will only work as the first or second drive any built in drives e g ide are installed first and then when the scsi bios runs it will try to install as the next drive but if there are already two drives then no can do the solution is simple use the aspi dos device driver and disable the scsi bios as it is useless in your case it works like a champ i have seen a similar situation before good luck gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re or grayscale displays a quick look through the computer shopper gave the following companies that sell monochrome monitors for less than pc or ps compatible cornerstone technology digital technology hardware that fits ibm ikegami image systems nanao radius ran ger technologies sampo samsung sigma designs most of these are single scan monitors which are useless for most pc users i posted requests for information in other newsgroups which were mostly fruitless but i have managed to track down two multisync grayscal monitors in the range one and one i am still looking into it and i will post the results when i get more info i am looking into a group purchase as well aniel thumim dthumim mit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tseng labs video card problem i have a tseng labs video card that gives me problems when i do anything in super vga mode checkit v reports a video page frame address error at page frame what does this mean and how if i can could this be fixed the card says et ax on it thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	parallel port can anybody please help me with information on the use of the bi directional printer port i have successfully used one on a toshiba laptop by enabling bit of port x f and controlling bit of port x a for the direction of data flow ie for output for input the same code does not work on my desktop machine i have heard that i might have to use bit of port x a however this also does not work for a parallel port i am using one of those ide super i o cards and have been running a tape backup unit off it via a parallel to scsi converter so i am pretty sure that the printer port is bi directional any information would be greatly appreasiated please post a reply here or email me on internet rick cabsav vut edu au thanks richard muratti origin custom programming bbs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm ps vs teac fd hello i already tried our national news group without success i tried to replace a friend s original ibm floppy disk in his ps pc with a normal teac drive i already identified the power supply on pins v and v shorted pin switch and inserted pullup resistors k on pins and the computer doesn t complain about a missing fd but the fd s light stays on all the time the drive spins up o k when i insert a disk but i can t access it the teac works fine in a normal pc are there any points i missed thank you volkmar volkmar grote stollmann de
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted isa mouse port with high interrupt with a sound card on interrupt two serial ports one for modem on i one for miracle piano on i and a printer port on i i have run out of low interrupts what i would like is a mouse port with an interrupt of or which ever interrupt the ps mouse port uses in in isa i computer i called technical support of microsoft logitech ati checked what interrupts the mouse port on the ati video cards can use and they all said the only interrupts possible on these cards was ones lower than does anyone know of any board for an isa bus which will allow a mouse port or even a serial port with high interrupts loran yourk at t lyourk ihlpm att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re can t write to floppy in article qndvd jhn usenet ins cwru edu da cleveland freenet edu andy nicola writes in a previous article limagen hpwala wal hp com says ok all you experts need answer quick machine floppy unable to write to a formated disk machine claims that disk is write protected but it is not note it ll read s with no problem please e mail or post if the disk is not an hd type disk i e with the extra hole in the case opposite the normal write protect hole the drive will not write to the disk you can punch a similar hole with whatever is handy or buy a small device a square hole puncher for about see the back pages of computer shopper magazine for it to be brief make the hole any way you can or no writing andy nicola of course you should be able to write a dd kb disk without making any holes stig
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q compaq configuration help hi all compaq owners a friend of mine has compaq portable iii and he has lost all the manuals and diskettes please help him getting the machine s equipment definition cmos memory configuration right the machine says that some bytes of it are still incorrectly set up it seems that compaq has some bytes defined not like the ibm compatible machines if you have a compaq it certainly has diagnostics diskette with it and this is needed i can t reach quickly any compaq dealers here if it is possible please email documentation or some of its configuration software heikki haldre e mail hhaldre sune stacken kth se or hhaldre park tartu ee
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	alr proveisa if anyone has any experience with the alr proveisa dx system i would be interested to hear your impressions of it and of alr in general thank you mark winqwk b mark seltzer ravina cres toronto ont m j m canada rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re wanted isa mouse port with high interrupt lyourk cbnewsc cb att com loran n yourk writes with a sound card on interrupt two serial ports one for modem on i one for miracle piano on i and a printer port on i i have run out of low interrupts what i would like is a mouse port with an interrupt of or which ever interrupt the ps mouse port uses in in isa i computer i called technical support of microsoft logitech ati checked what interrupts the mouse port on the ati video cards can use and they all said the only interrupts possible on these cards was ones lower than does anyone know of any board for an isa bus which will allow a mouse port or even a serial port with high interrupts try putting one of the irqs for your com ports onto irq the hardware will automagically wrap irq to irq on at class machines eg anything with high irqs this is what i m doing on my set up right now i ve got com on irq really irq address it this way in software com on irq soundblaster on irq lpt on irq and my ati busmouse port on one of the interrupts in between works just great if you need even more there s a text file floating around somewhere that details how to hack up any serial card and probably any others to work on the higher irqs it basically involves cutting the trace to the low irq and running a wire over the a high irq pin on the bit expansion bus it will be best to put the modem s com port onto irq this will be the first irq serviced by the system giving the modem a better response especially handy under multitaskers like os which i m running with no problems justin jdolske andy bgsu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re mb isa limit rpao mts mivj ca us writes in article c j zn mts mivj ca us marka ssd csd harris com mark ashley writes then the writer claims that glitches can occur in systems with over mb because of that limit that part i don t understand because the ram is right on the motherboard so the cpu should have no problems talking with the ram can anybody explain this the floppy is served by dma on the motherboard and original dma controller can t reach more than the first mb the address space of the isa bus joerg
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mb f d wanted subject says it all please email soon skcgoh tartarus uwa edu au
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	swap boot drive on i have a machine with a a drive and a b drive i want to swap them so drive is a what do i have to do tia david m todd department of psychology university of massachusetts amherst ma usa phone david todd psych umass edu fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted advice comments on building a pc in the next few months i am intending to build a or pc system for remote monitoring i would welcome any comments or advice you may have on the choice of motherboard hdds and i o boards recommendations for good companies selling these would be a big help many thanks peter green peter r green tel fax janet prg uk ac mcc nessie internet prg nessie mcc ac uk include std disclaimers
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q conner hd specs can anybody send conner cp harddisk specifications it has cyl and hd but i am more intrested in its time out values precomp etc heikki haldre internet hhaldre sune stacken kth se
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hint vlb isa eisa motherboard i am looking at buying some companion brand vlb isa eisa motherboards with hint chipsets has anybody had any experience with this board good or bad any information would be helpful thanks brian schaufenbuel brian j schaufenbuel there is no art which one government sooner learns helser halsted than that of draining money from the pockets of the ames ia people especially college students adam smith
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how to detect mouse at hardware level lo all i am writting a program that checks a computer for its configuration it s going to be run everytime a computer boots up to our campus network actually it already is running it s just not getting all the info i want it to yet anyway i want to check for a mouse i already check for a mouse driver using the code in microsoft s mouse book but there is no guarantee that the driver is loaded when my program runs or that they ever load the driver since i am interested in what hardware is attached to the machine how do i detect is a mouse is attached i know it can be done because the mouse driver can do it thanks in advance andy andy berkvam few are wholly dead u of wisconsin stevens point blow on a dead man s embers cleveland freenet bq and a live flame will start internet aberkvam spu uwsp edu robert graves
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article c i fx fc ucdavis edu ez rocky ucdavis edu the great randalli writes can anyone explain in fairly simple terms why if i get os i might need an scsi controler rather than an ide will performance suffer that much for a mb or so drive if i don t have a tape drive or cd rom any help would be appreciated richard randall ez hamlet ucdavis edu there is a way in which a multi tasking computer actually gives you more cpu power then you had before and that is with i o overlap with i o overlap your cpu can continue to think while disk operations are underway whereas without overlap your cpu sits idly waiting for each disk operation to finish and disk operations take an eternity compared to a fast cpu so when you ve got multi tasking you want to increase performance by increasing the amount of overlapping you do one way is with dma or bus mastering either of these make it possible for i o devices to move their data into and out of memory without interrupting the cpu the alternative is for the cpu to move the data there are several scsi interface cards that allow dma and bus mastering ide however is defined by the standard at interface created for the ibm pc at which requires the cpu to move all the data bytes with no dma richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article qk kvinnndk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes point of view why does scsi have an advantage when it comes to multi tasking data is data and it could be anywhere on the drive can scsi find it faster can it get it off the drive and into the computer faster does it have a better cache system i thought scsi was good at managing a data bus when multiple devices are attached if we are only talking about a single drive explain why scsi is inherently faster at managing data from a hard drive the adaptec series use bus mastering this means that the cpu doesn t sit waiting for data bytes it can go off and do other computing if you have an advanced multi tasking os that is dos just sits and waits anyway ide integrated device electronics currently the most common standard and is mainly used for medium sized drives can have more than one hard drive asynchronous transfer mb s max why don t you start with the spec sheet of the isa bus first you can quote scsi specs till you re blue in the face but if they exceed the isa bus capability then what s the point who says ide is limited to megs sec what about vlb ide does anyone know how they perform why don t you start with the spec sheet of the isa bus first ide was designed to plug into isa virtually unaided in essence ide is isa on a ribbon cable therefore it s specs are the same as isa mhz clock bit width mb sec this is why i ve concluded that ide on vl bus is a waste of a fast slot the card s job would to slow the vl bus transactions to isa speed heck that s what isa slots do i ll just use one of those instead richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article qm c on hcx ssd csd harris com marka hcx ssd csd harris com mark ashley writes first off with all these huge software packages and files that they produce ide may no longer be sufficient for me mb limit i ve seen a listing of a seagate g ide hard drive second rumor is microsoft recognizes the the importance of scsi and will support it soon i m just not sure if it s on dos win or nt windows nt already supports scsi a variety of adapters for disk tape and cd rom so does os richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article wayne uv amtower spacecoast org wayne amtower spacecoast orgx newssoftware grn f by mike schwartz michael b smith writes but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive a scsi controller that transfers data by dma allows the cpu to request data from the hard drive and continue working while the controller gets the data and moves it to memory ide also uses dma techniques i believe floppy controller also uses dma and most a d boards also use dma dma is no big deal and has nothing to do directly with scsi ide does not do dma this is because it s like te pc at hard disk interface the controller moves a sector to some buffer memory on the controller card then the cpu moves the data from the buffer to main memory where it s needed if ide doesn t work this way then it s not compatible heck if ide used dma then you d hear all kinds of complaints about isa bus systems with more than m ram not working with their ide drives m is the dma addressing limit of the isa bus and if ide did dma there would be trouble btw there are dma enabling signals in the ide cable spec but the last report i heard was that they are never implemented because it would require a different kind of ide adapter and different drivers richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	nec p printer question i just picked up a second hand color option for the nec p pin dot matrix printer alas there were no installation instructions so i am totally confused on why it won t go in do i have to remove the actaual print head it seems almost to fit but not quite please any info would be most appreciated x x jon chopin udel edu for my cents on eutsch i d pay a dollar x x
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re booting from b drive in article khan nova khan nova gmi edu mohammad razi khan writes glang slee srl ford com gordon lang writes david weisberger djweisbe unix amherst edu wrote i have a drive as drive a how can i make the system boot from my b drive intermediate reply suggesting cable switch deleted i have ami bios i have poked around the bios but haven t tried this but somewhere it says boot a c i would assume that you could probably slip in a b althoug a i haven t tried it and b don t mess with your cmos unless you know what your doing i hate to burst your bubble but you cannot slip in a b to that particular ami bios setting that setting only allows you to set the boot order of the floppy a with respect to the primary hd c i e check a first then c or check c then a gordon lang mohammad r khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail to mkhan nyx cs du edu regards paul yee yee nimios eng mcmaster ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conner mb question what do i need to do to configure this drive as a slave model cp g please reply via e mail thanks jeff four out of five electrons prefer holes for their mutual annhiliation needs boycott sierra ignore anybody who purports to be a serious windows user support new makers of hardware and software buy canadian music quit smoking take up running fm synthesis is the cga of audio jks ritvax isc rit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re perfect mag mx f monitors in article apr brtph bnr ca adcock bnr ca doug adcock writes i ve been intently following the mag thread while waiting for mine to arrive in the mail there seems to be a lot of complaints about minor alignment problems with the mx f one article contained a comment that the owner called the factory and was told that his screen rotation was within spec that figure for image rotation would seem to be a little high on my nec fg the specs call for no greater than mm well my monitor arrived last night and sure enough it has a very noticable barrel distortion it s not dramatic but it is there and it is especially noticable when the image doesn t fill the entire screen the fact that it is worse on the right side doesn t help matters what i m trying to find out is if these minor imperfections are the norm or are most of their monitors perfect i don t want to send it back and get one with the same or an even worse problem does the factory consider this kind of thing normal and ship their monitors with less than perfect alignment i can t speak for mag innovision but as far as nec is concerned they are adjusted to factory spec before leaving the central usa distribution point ma for the eastern canadian market now here s the key nec knows that the monitors adjustments are very sensitive to shipping over distances with all the bumps rough handling and such and therefore expect and at least in theory require that the local distributor not dealer have it adjusted at the local service centre bull hn information systems in toronto before sale this is the correct and probably only way of having any chance of receiving a perfect monitor the definition of perfect seems to depend on how picky one is in my case quite are other netters just living with these kind of imperfections i for one was not willing to accept what i considered a substandard monitor and after two months of wrangling and direct contact with nec finally received a satisfactorily adjusted monitor not perfect imho but a major improvement over what the dealer and distributor were trying convince me was normal the short answer is no don t accept these imperfections as normal because for the premium one pays for the larger screen monitors one has a right to expect higher quality and if you re persistent you ll receive it comments and opinions are mine not bnr s doug adcock adcock bnr ca bell northern research research triangle park nc regards paul yee yee nimios eng mcmaster ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrading a modem i have an old tandon type modem that s all the info i have apart from the fact that it is black does anyone have any info about this modem or upgrading it reply by e mail please to cdw dcs ed ac uk chris e mail cdw dcs ed ac uk or c walton ed or p cplab ph ed ac uk tel or at weekends write romero place edinburgh eh bj finagle s fourth law once a job is fouled up anything done to improve it only makes it worse chris e mail cdw dcs ed ac uk or c walton ed or p cplab ph ed ac uk tel or at weekends write romero place edinburgh eh bj
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes stuff about the connection between ide and ida deleated mhz clock bit width mb sec if ide speed come from ida where does the mb s sighted for ide come from scsi is not complex it is just the way the industry uses and talks about it there are three key differences in scsi the controller chip the port and the software that is it let us look as scsi in from this stand point scsi asynchronous and synchronous modes software scsi driver only asynchronous is slower then synchronous mode only mb s vs mb s synchronous speeds can be reached by most scsi divices with a rewrite of the software driver as is the case for the mac quadra scsi bit this is the main source for the confusion this differs from scsi only in the controler chip in most machines in the mac and some pcs this is called fast scsi because it uses scsi ports and software drivers and can produce scsi speeds through scsi inspite of this even in the slower asynchronous mode average speed in asynchronous scsi mode mb s with mb s see in both quadras and higher end pcs synchronous mode just allows a higher burst rate mb s scsi bit two versions wide fast wide scsi requires two things over bit scsi a scsi software driver and a wide scsi port on the machine and the external device fast scsi also requires two things over bit scsi scsi driver software and that the recieving devise support bit fast scsi speed of both is the same mb s with mb s burst scsi bit also know as wide and fast scsi over bit scsi this requires scsi driver software wide scsi port and that the recieving devices also have a bit mode scsi chip as expected this is very expencive speed mb s with mb s bursts as i said simple seven versions of scsi seperated by software the controler chip and the port standarize the software and it drops to only five versions of scsi seperate by only hardware the chip and the port
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conner cp f info please i am looking for information about this drive switch settings geometry etc conner cp f please reply via e mail many thanks in advance nelson nsl doe carleton ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re pentium in a previous article rrn po cwru edu robert r novitskey says just a qestion for all you pc er s out there will the upcoming pentium systems be compatible with current simms and vlb cards any info would be helpful i would just like to know before i plunk my on new hardware thanks bob well it all depends on the motherboard implimentation i m sure someone will make a vlb motherboard that takes x simms and uses a pentium processor i m also sure that there will be some motherboards that won t
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	beyond k trident and lots more hi i have a few enquiries about pc s and compatibles in general some software others hardware orientated probably the wrong newsgroup as everyone claims anyway does any one happen to have the board jumper details for a trident svga graphics card mb or even what the dip switches do on the end mine already works fine albeit slow and after having blown up a monitor i found out which switch controlled the interlace non interlace facility but i m curious as to why there are dip switches on the card with apparantly little use secondly does anyone know why commodore had to be so crazed in their design of the pc motherboard with respect to the ram ie or k can anyone supply pin details for the expansion ports for a pc or bit or even a sample circuit to cause an irq when a button is pressed yeah i know its a piece of cake i m lazy software wise anyone care to divulge some tips on accessing expanded ram on a pc from a program written in turbo c for instance using farcoreleft and coreleft return only memory available from the base k regardless of combinations of emm etc etc what i want is to be able to use the ram above and beyond the mb boundary i m not certain whether farmalloc new actually uses it anyway but i ll suspect not also what half brained wit created dos so as not to be re entrant as a follow on does anyone have any comments about the use of dos calls to c from within a dos interrupt ie will changing the stack size on entry be of use two articles i ve read on the subject have given conflicting views does anyone have any views on writing direct to screen memory in terms of portability many thanks gotta go bars closing soon cheers ian
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help on hand scanners wanted fellow netters i m in the market for a hand scanner however i don t know anyone who has one i have my eye on two choices dexxa this scanner is available at wal mart for it includes grayworks software and provides dpi and grayscales i think the ocr software catchword is available through mail order for about also mustek gray artist for windows this scanner offers grayscales according to cad graphics and dpi it is available for mail order and comes with perceive ocr and picture publisher le i am also looking at a genius hand scanner b from cad graphics it is basically the same as the mustek scanner except for the resolution dpi and price basically i would like recommendations on which to buy i have heard that logitech makes the best and manufactures dexxa scanners but which one is the best buy would dpi really be helpful output would be no better than hp laserjet iii or canon bj x to x i am leaning toward the mustek because it offers the most features and is in the middle in terms of prices which should i buy if you have a hand scanner please let me know whether or not you would recommend it also if you know of another scanner within the price range under that would be a better deal please e mail me any and all help would be greatly appreciated kevin harter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re booting from b drive in article apr mcshub dcss mcmaster ca yee nimios eng mcmaster ca paul yee writes in article khan nova khan nova gmi edu mohammad razi khan writes glang slee srl ford com gordon lang writes david weisberger djweisbe unix amherst edu wrote i have a drive as drive a how can i make the system boot from my b drive intermediate reply suggesting cable switch deleted i heard boot b zip could do exactly what you wanted without touching anything check it out with archie h j
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mitsubishi mr hard drive help i have a new mr mitsubishi hard drive rll or mfm that has been in storage and will not format i suspected that the switch settings may have been moved in the movement of the drive from one place to another does anyone have the switch settings for this drive it has j sw with switches and sw has switches sw is the one that selects the drive number if you have info on this drive or know a number i can call to configure it please please let me know by email it has cyl heads and i think is type thanks in advance chuck browning charles w browning browning galois nscf org university of ga browning moe coe uga edu augusta georgia cbrowni eis calstate edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors mreamy rock concert net michael g reamy support writes and they too said that the nanao t i was the best monitor to get if you had the money but they also said that the mitsubishi diamond pro is the next best choice and that it has superb picture quality this monitor can be had for around has anyone actually seen any of these i am responsible for choosing standard components in my company and as part of my review i got the viewsonic mitsubishi and nanao f is i picked the f i even though it costs more than the other two choices because it has a the best clarity and text is not fuzzy at all the viewsonic is the worst the mitsubishi is much better but the nanao f i blows both of them out of the water i don t understand why the nanao is so much better since one would think that the mitsubishi with it s trinitron tube would be better i can only imagine that the nanao t i must be incredible if it is beter than the f i michael g reamy mreamy rock concert net the light at the end of the tunnel may be an oncoming dragon one of the monitors i reviewed for the june issue of windows magazine was the mitsubishi i also reviewed a new nanao the f iw which has just been released last year for the may issue of windows i reviewed several monitors including the nanao t i there s no question that the nanao monitors are the best available this year just as they were last year the difference between my ranking of the best in windows and the ranking in windows sources is due mainly to a difference in the testing criteria and the scoring i used different tests than they did and i scored differently there s nothing wrong with the mitsubishi and it scored very highly in my tests but it was a few points shy of perfect incidentally one of the things everyone should do when they re reading reviews of any product whether it s monitors or mice is to read the criteria and methodology carefully unless you know how the product testing was done and on what the scores are based you can t possibly know what they really mean just seeing that i rank a monitor differently from windows sources is meaningless without knowing how we did the ranking likewise it s impossible to tell whether a monitor will meet your needs unless you know how we did the testing after all some of what we do may not apply to you likewise some of what we do may apply more closely in one review than in another you can t always tell anything from reading the or so words of commentary we write if you don t also understand the scoring wayne rash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitor with rgb sync to vga scanlonm rimail interlan com michael scanlon writes i don t know if this is an obvious question but can any of the current batch of windows accelerator cards diamond etc be used to drive a monitor which has rgb and horizontal and vertical sync bnc jacks altogether connectors out the back i might be able to get ahold of a raster technologies monitor cheap and i was wondering if it was possible to connect it via an adapter rgb to vga to my gateway would i need different drivers etc thanks mike scanlon please reply to scanlon interlan com you need a monitor cable that has a vga connector on one end and five bnc connectors on the other i bought one from nanao when i bought the nanao monitor i use which also has five bnc connectors check with a computer store that sells good monitors quite a few companies use that setup
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re tape backup question in article apr sol ctr columbia edu jerry msi com jerry shekhel writes hello folks i have an archive xl internal qic tape drive which is pretty comparable to the colorado jumbo since i have two floppy drives in my system i m using a small card not accelerated made by archive to attach my tape drive as a third floppy device the problem although the dos based qicstream software works just fine both the norton and central point backup programs for windows fail unless i switch the machine to non turbo speed i m using a dx eisa since the dos software works it can t be a hardware problem can it has anyone seen similar problems any solutions thanks in advance yeah sounds typical windows makes all sorts of extra demands on hardware and therefore your machine can t keep up with things ever notice how when acessing the floppies in windows everything else slows to a crawl i imagine your backup and evertyhing else that is running fights for cpu time and sometimes the backup program loses be glad i can t even run in medium speed with cp backup on my machine supposedly because i have a scsi machine which places extra demands on the data bus don
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article qslfs bm access digex net rash access digex com wayne rash writes i also reviewed a new nanao the f iw which has just been released what s the difference between the f i and the new f iw i m about to buy a gateway system and was going to take the f i upgrade should i get the f iw instead mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re q conner hd specs in aa sune stacken kth se hhaldre stacken kth se heikki haldre writes can anybody send conner cp harddisk specifications it has cyl and hd but i am more intrested in its time out values precomp etc heikki haldre internet hhaldre sune stacken kth se conner peripherals has a number with a touch tone voice response data bank giving all the info if you call directory assisatnce and ask for the phone number of conner peripherals you should get what you need dannyb panix com all the usual disclaimers apply whatever they may be
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	at s need what kinda battery hello i m the proud owner of an ibm at without a battery i know it hooks into jumper j but i need more info so i can replace it what s its voltage any suggestions for replacement where can i get one please respond to grisch uceng uc edu thanks george
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re booting from b drive in c nvvx ns mts mivj ca us rpao mts mivj ca us roger c pao writes much discussion about switching and drives removed another albeit strange option is using a program like ii available via anonymous ftp at many major sites or fdformat also available via anonymous ftp that allows you to format hd disks to meg or hd disks to meg along with many many other formats so you can diskcopy yes the broken messy dos diskcopy the disks onto disks or vice versa i use this techniques with non dos self booting game disks on my old tandy and it works another program named teledisk shareware available on many major bbs s will also make the weird format disks provided you have ii or fdformat installed some disks that won t diskcopy properly can be readily teledisk d into the proper format at least this is a software solution for a hardware bios deficiency eh joseph zbiciak im u c camelot bradley edu disclaimer if you believe any of this check your head nuke the whales
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	rockwell chipset for s any good i have a quick question regarding the rockwell chipset that s come out relatively recently it supports v v bis v group iii fax and so on however i heard there are bugs in the chipset i know someone that has a zoom modem that uses the chipset and he hasn t had a problem what s the word on the chipset is this a rom bug specific to a specific brand using the rockwell or is it the rockwell chipset itself and if it is the rockwell chipset what are the chances that if i buy one of these modems using the rockwell chipset that a the bug will affect me b a rom change will fix compensate for the bug please send responses via email joe zbiciak im u c cegt bradley edu im u c camelot bradley edu joseph zbiciak im u c camelot bradley edu disclaimer if you believe any of this check your head nuke the whales
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re shopping for a new nec monitor well people i can only recomend the non flat screen no hype no nonsense nec ds that i have and plus it has the advantage of not having one of those new flat screen tubes which are oversensitive and fragile and break often this is a heavy duty rugged set for those who insist on well proven reliable technologies jim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi first off with all these huge software packages and files that they produce ide may no longer be sufficient for me mb limit micropolis seems to have broken this limit they have ide meg and meg hd s available greg greene ggg kepler unh edu mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re which high performance vlb video card in article apr spartan ac brocku ca tmc spartan ac brocku ca tim ciceran writes pc magazine just did another review of high end graphics accelerators for all around performance windows dos cad go for ati graphics ultra pro they ve done two reviews in the last three months and that card ranks as an editors choice in both reviews for all around performance it seems it just can t be beat you should pick up this issue of pc mag april and check it out for yourself windows the recent reviews have all shown that the p cards are significantly faster doing windows than the ati card vga the recent reviews have all shown that the p cards they looked at are significantly slower doing vga than the ati card about the speed as i recall the big question for me is the orchid v card each of the p cards tested so far has had the w to do vga orchid is the only one i know about i don t know about ami that uses the w for vga that is reportedly faster i would like to know whether the orchid card can do vga as fast as the ati card if so it would appear to be a formidable competitor advertised prices are about the same for the two cards someone in this group posted a little while back that they were getting an orchid v card has that card arrived what do the benchmarks look like also is the ami p based card real what does it use for vga speed bob
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re adaptec acb what is it wright lims lerc nasa gov ted wright writes an adaptec acb rev b disk controller has come into my hands with no documentation is this an esdi controller mfm rll something else the bios on it is dated if that is any help i think it is an esdi controller if you need the doco i can help you stefan stefan reck inet sreck rebox in berlin de berlin germany that s all
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway telepath modem getting v bis i have had a gateway telepath modem for about a month or so now actually i had one that wouldn t connect to anything no matter what software i used so i got a new one sent to me this allows me to connect to my favorite news system with zero problems so i m somewhat happier but i still cannot connect to my favorite dos bbs with any kind of reliability i have success about calls not good i would hope that the fact that this one can connect to at least one of my fave places means i just need to adjust it what i usually get is a fast stream of garbage in the modem response line on the dial window sometimes it will drop to full screen mode first then i get about screens of garbage in both cases the modem seems to time out before connecting and drops carrier i am using default settings at f and getting this problem i am using the autoconfigure settings that gateway has supplied with my copy of qmodem atw c d s w and getting this problem they have refused to help me beyond this claiming it must be the bbs or something like that not so my work modem connects to this same place just fine using factory settings a microcom anyone have any ideas next a waco update an ohio prison update a bosnia update a russian update an abortion update and a congressional update here on snn the standoff news network all news all standoff all day daniel a hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask me about rotaract
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re which high performance vlb video card in article hcbfp e zola esd sgi com blean rwb esd sgi com bob blean writes someone in this group posted a little while back that they were getting an orchid v card has that card arrived what do the benchmarks look like the one i got only does about kb s in text and x vga mcga mode which is almost identical to the other w based cards ati does about kb s this is weird since the orchid supposedly should be much faster and i was told by someone that it can do almost kb s since the vga chip is covered by the orchid label i can t really tell for sure if it uses a chip but the spec sheet that comes with the board no docs did say it has meg dram and uses a chip winmarks is about mil slower than a viper vs using standard palette btw if anyone is insterested i m trying to sell a diamond viper megs vram for a friend for email if interested i m too broke to take it myself also is the ami p based card real what does it use for vga speed i think it s available in limited quantites no idea of what vga chip it uses though be very careful with oem p boards though the orchid i got for example only has a readme file on disk that serve as documentation and conflicts the hell with my vlb controller card or maybe it s my motherboard an a i r vlb stephen lau elec engineering univ of hawaii using a friend s account while waiting for my new grad account death to fm synthesis go gus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	some more info about p board one more thing to add the orchid board vesa bios is only able to handle the meg dram on board the viper however can utilize the meg vram on board to support vesa modes such as x x x x mil and x x under dos stephen lau elec engineering univ of hawaii don t have my own account until grad school starts autumn death to fm synthesis go gus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info on ps mouse port would someone please email me the pinout for a ps pin mini din mouse port i m trying to make an adapter for a serial mouse and the dealer who knows what adapter works with the mouse i bought doesn t have it in stock i have several different adapters but none of them make sense based on what sketchy information i have about the port they have connections to reserved pins bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article c geh n d utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes oh yeah i just read in another newsgroup that the t i uses a high quality trinitron tube than is in most monitors the sony s for example and this is where the extra cost comes from it is also where the high bandwidth comes from and the fantastic image and the large image size etc etc i agree that the image is as sharp as it gets with these sony tubes however in the monitors using these tubes the annoying black lines on the top and bottom quarters of the tube which are created due to the wires holding up the invar shadow mask are quite annoying after a while that is the only thing that is making me lean more in favor of the nec fg or now also available the nec fge only difference no accucolor any experiences or opinions from people who have used the nec fg would be appreciated since i want to get one right after my exams are all done ie about a week from now tony tony gerardis mcgill university computer science prefered account the sun is the same in a relative way gerardis cs mcgill ca but you re older however also available and shorter of breath and one day tgerardi nyx cs du edu closer to death floyd gerardis musocs bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	quantum at is my cache working the quantum lps at is supposed to have a k cache on the ide controller built into the card yet when i do a dos dir command on my system the disk is always accessed i can hear the mechanical movement of the heads why is this happening strangely even when i have smartdrive installed every dir command accesses the disk did i somehow de activate the cache this is happening on each of two machines with an lps at drive will estes internet westes netcom com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	custom keys i am looking for a company that can make custom keys for instance we need a key that says help main menu etc which we are going to use instead of f f f etc can anyone point me to a company that does this also do you have to have a special keyboard or can i just pop off the old keys and pop in the new ones thanks for the help jeff swartz
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article c pisw kq cs mcgill ca gerardis cs mcgill ca the gif emporium writes stuff deleted a while that is the only thing that is making me lean more in favor of the nec fg or now also available the nec fge only difference no accucolor any experiences or opinions from people who have used not only do you lose accucolor you also had to give up x non interlaced mode the wider mhz bandwidth and the mac and bnc inputs of the fg personally i am not bothered at all by the two lines in trinitron tube tony gerardis mcgill university computer science stephen lau elec engineering univ of hawaii don t have my own account until grad school starts autumn death to fm synthesis go gus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re rockwell chipset for s any good in article im u c camelot im u c camelot bradley edu joe zbiciak writes what s the word on the chipset is this a rom bug specific to a specific brand using the rockwell or is it the rockwell chipset itself there were an assortment of firmware problems but that is pretty much expected with any fax modem talking with a different fax or modem which may have also been revised or is new i m pretty much oblivious to any current firmware problems so you ll have to get it from someone else however i can tell you to stay clear of any board which uses the rockwell mpu as opposed to the dpu for an internal implementation this is because the mpu used speed buffering instead of having a interface without the interface the number of interrupts are still the same and thus may get dropped under multitasking conditions like in windows as far as i know the speed buffering works ok for external modems if a is used on the internal serial port board hope this helps tom tom barrett tdbear sr engineer tom barrett amd com v amd pcd ms e ben white austin tx f don t take no take hold don t leave it to chance tasmin archer my views are my own and may not be the same as the company of origin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors the mitsubishi i also reviewed a new nanao the f iw which has just been released last year for the may issue of windows i reviewed do you have the specs for this monitor what have they changed from the f i do you know if their is going to be a new t i soon a t iw thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cache or micronics eisa vlb motherboard from article apr news cs indiana edu by mohammad al ansari alansari mango ucs indiana edu clip i am in the process of purchasing an eisa vl bus dx computer clip the first is ares and they use a cache motherboard that s the brand of the motherboard with opti chip set the other is micron formerly edge technology and they use the micronics eisa vlb motherboard clip i would really appreciate any input on this is the micron machine the clear choice does anyone know anything positive or negative about either company has anyone ever heard of cache motherboards should i go with micron just because it has the micronics motherboard etc thanks very much in advance for any information mohammad al ansari get back to your vendors or better yet the board manufactures and get some more info where made norton indexes yeah i know bms suck but whats a mother to do number of slots and types esia and bit any ide or scsi on board how easy to upgrade ram location and of pins overdrive oscilator kits does it have a uart who s bios these might make you feel better about either system but i must agree that ares with days of hr tech and year warranty is encouraging terry clark tclark umaxc uiowa edu you want an opinion you don t pay me enough for an opinion
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	know anything about eisa i read about the development of eisa some time ago but dismissed it in light of the intense interest in vesa and pci however i recently was disheartened to hear that isa cannot address more than mb of ram a limit that too many of us will hit all too soon i recall that eisa will support bit transfer among other enhancements is there such a standard being developed bing ho bing zinc cchem berkeley edu university of california at berkeley
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article richk apr gozer grebyn com richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes can anyone explain in fairly simple terms why if i get os i might need an scsi controler rather than an ide will performance suffer that much for a mb or so drive if i don t have a tape drive or cd rom any help would be appreciated so when you ve got multi tasking you want to increase performance by increasing the amount of overlapping you do one way is with dma or bus mastering either of these make it possible for i o devices to move their data into and out of memory without interrupting the cpu the alternative is for the cpu to move the data there are several scsi interface cards that allow dma and bus mastering how do you do bus mastering on the isa bus ide however is defined by the standard at interface created for the ibm pc at which requires the cpu to move all the data bytes with no dma if we re talking isa at bus here then you can only have dma channel active at any one time presumably transferring data from a single device so even though you can have at least devices on a scsi bus explain how all of those devices can to dma transfers through a single scsi card to the isa at bus at the same time also i m still trying to track down a copy of ibm s at reference book but from their pc technical manual page the fdd adapter is buffered on the i o bus and uses the system board direct memory access dma for record data transfers i expect to see something similar for the pc at hdd adapter so the lowly low density original pc fdd card used dma and the pc at hdd controller doesn t that makes real sense
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article apr grebyn com richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes heck if ide used dma then you d hear all kinds of complaints about isa bus systems with more than m ram not working with their ide drives m is the dma addressing limit of the isa bus and if ide did dma there would be trouble there would be no problems as long as the os didn t set up a dma transfer to an area above the mb area the dma controller probably can t be programmed that way anyways so there probably isin t a problem with this besides like i said before the fdd controller uses dma channel and i don t yet believe that the hdd controllers any of them mfm rll etc don t also use dma
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re where to find comm ports with irqs other than and hamilton romulus ehs uiuc edu wayne hamilton writes a friend of mine recently got such a serial card i ll have to ask him to verify the details but as i recall he paid it s made by stb it has or was it ports and it supports the at irqs in addition to the convention ones i m sure of the last because he had trouble finding comm software that would allow him to override the standard irq assignments unfortunately there a lot of such software i also find it to be the case that the majority of the software that is bad in this regard is commercial software way too many commercial packages are very poorly written but then most of the programs in ms dos are crap such as the print command tsr that locks up your system for long periods of time when the printer is full instead of trying every clock tick back to comm software i find success with telix my com at e works ok on telix phil howard pdh netcom com ka wgn spell protection a right wing conservative capitalists are out to separate you from your money left wing liberal do gooders are out to separate you from everything else
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scan rate vs font size this past winter i found myself spending a ridiculous amout of time in front of my computer since my eyes were going berserk i decided to shell out some serious money to upgrade from a to a monitor i m running x at hz my eyes are very grateful however i find myself using a smaller font with less eye strain has anyone else had this kind of experience i thought that small fonts were the culprit but it seems that flicker was my real problem any comments alec lee alee cs du edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re know anything about eisa in article qt nk o agate berkeley edu bing zinc cchem berkeley edu bing ho writes i read about the development of eisa some time ago but dismissed it in light of the intense interest in vesa and pci however i recently was disheartened to hear that isa cannot address more than mb of ram a limit that too many of us will hit all too soon i recall that eisa will support bit transfer among other enhancements is there such a standard being developed very possibly but if it s still going to be backwards compatible with the isa bus it s going to be the same tripe that the current eisa implementation really is from what i ve seen the pci bus will just be a new bit mhz intelligent bus ie bus controller takes care of interrupts and the like not jumpers hopefully it ll get somewhere up there with the amiga zorro iii bus vl bus is a bit too much of a hack for my liking toodlepip marc em
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrade from to help needed greetings please forgive me if this is faq if there is source on this kind of info please let me know i just got a station around in dimension and i am thinking about upgrade it to a or the station has a power supply two floppy disk drives and the big case i have sony monitor syquest drive mac and maybe a cd rom reader mac for it here are the questions i have so far is there a motherboard at this dimension that i could use the case the original owener has the controller for floppy drive and hard disk removed can i use them to control these devices under how much do i have to pay for a new controllers if the old ones won t work how can i make syquest scsi and cd rom scsi work on this station i heard that there is a cheap sound board that has scsi controller built in what s quality of this board how much usually does a scsi control cost is there any ftp sites that has syquest driver or cd rom driver for the pc if i can have everything hooked up ok what i want is a motherboard a sound board to make it a mpc quality station how much would it cost to do that is it worth the hussle than just buy a new station btw i need to buy a keyboard for it too any input is welcome thank you peter liu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck in article apr kosman uucp kevin kosman uucp kevin o gorman writes anybody seen the date get stuck i m running ms dos with a menu system alive all the time the machine is left running all the time suddenly the date no longer rolls over the time is reasonably accurate allways but we have to change the date by hand every morning this involves exiting the menu system to get to dos anyone have the slightest idea why this should be even a clue as to whether the hardware battery cmos or dos is broken i bet it suddenly started sticking when you started leaving the pc running the menu all night there is a limitation bug in the date roll over software in pc s that means you have to be doing something like waiting for keyboard input via a dos call rather than a bios call as menus often use otherwise the code to update the date after midnight never gets called somebody might be able to correct the details in case i ve mis rememberred them but i think you have to change the menu program if you have the sources or add a tsr or system patch or something as far as i know the cmos clock keeps the right time in fact about seconds day better than dos s clock mark aitchison university of canterbury
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	netware server a and sft netware level ii v a serialisation facts a netware server a was roughly moved to a new location and left powered down for three months from memory it has an mb hard drive manuals and original disks are for sft netware level ii v a when powered up the cmos was wiped a technician examined it and pronounced the disk drive unusable my investigations indicate that drive c is a type cylinders sides when cmos set this way compsurf runs happily with bad blocks i use prepare to hotfix the one internal drive install will proceed successfully but when i try to boot the server it reports that the software is not serialised for this hardware internal examination indicates that the keycard is present and there is one disk drive or at least one large single unit attempts to configure a second drive in cmos result in drive not ready errors questions the software is netware level ii and i can see burnt on to the screen sft netware level ii v a however to configure netware for level ii mirrored or duplexed disks requires a second disk yes so how is the novell server a normally configured can i install sft netware level ii v a as level i or is this what is causing my serialisation error is the novell server a normally equipped with two hard drives one of which has failed would this mean i can not install the network software because it will not be serialised for this hardware with a failed drive what else can cause a serialisation error what happens if the keycard fails am i doing something wrong can someone knowledgeable offer some comments and guides thanks for your time apology i appreciate that i have posted this request somewhat widely as i m dealing with somewhat archaic hardware and software i m hoping that by casting my net further i m more likely to capture someone who has met this system before i believe i can justify the groups to which i am posting please feel free to correct me if you feel this is an inappropriate place to post this this posting is definitive bljeghbe chugh vaj blhegh wayne mcdougall keeper of the list of shows better than star trek tm ask me about the auckland festival of missions april i always change my mind when new evidence is available what method do you use
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problem with printer and emm exe i recently decided to try using emm exe for a memory manager and when i tried to print to my printer in lpt from word i wouldn t work it would send the linefeeds for the top margin and then the printer ready light would go off and stop working i disabled emm exe and the problem went away i would like to continue using emm exe if possible i would greatly appreciate any comments or suggestions please send them to arthur u washingt arthur u washington edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi how do you do bus mastering on the isa bus by initiating a dma xfer seriously busmastering adapter have their own dma ability they don t use the motherboards on board dma which is much slower isa has no bus arbitration so if two busmastering cards in isa system try to do dma xfers on the same dma channel the system will lock or crash i forget their are dma channels in an isa system are bit are bit the system uses dma a soundblaster uses dma i could buy a busmastering xga video card a busmastering scsi ha in order for them to work properly i would have to find out what dma channel the xga card uses and then simply configure the scsi ha to use a different dma channel for its dma xfers i don t know if multiple dma xfers can go on at the same time on isa i m not sure if they can on eisa systems either i do know that on eisa mca systems you can allow bm cards to use the same dma channel thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings they don t have a conflict because technically lpt does not use irq the parallel printer processor the actual number escapes me contains a printer control register which enables the chip to transmit an interrupt to the interrupt controller as irq then onto the main processor as int x f by default the parallel printer processor does not enable it s interrupt line therefore no int x f s will be sourced from the printer controller chip thus enabling other devices to use the actual irq note this applies to com ports also which by default do not route interrupts to the system bus although com s software usually enable this feature as it make monitoring com port activity easier than polling the serial uart thus probably getting the sound card slighty confused windows may be a different story
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modems and noisy lines hi i just got a problem i have a cheapo bps modem which i use to connect to my university but i get too much garbage on the screen i do know it s because the noise in the line i can actually hear it so my question is will an error correction protocol help to eliminate this garbage my modem doesn t have any of these on hardware can a software implemented protocol do the trick thanks juan carlos leon jleon scf usc edu jcleon ucs usc edu electrical computer major university computing services university of southern california los angeles ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck i can t imagine why someone would leave their computer on all of the time to start with its like leaving your lights tv radio and everything in the house on all of the time to me nuts gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help tonight determine this mhz chip did it ever accrue to you to just call intel s number and ask gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors i would realy like to hear from someone that has one of these nanao t i monitors that is driving it with a diamond speedstar x with the x set up to run at its khz hz output mode and realy driving the hell out of the monitor just woundering if the nanao t i would fall apart with poor low capabilities like my sony s did with the x driving their balls off sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re perfect mag mx f monitors article is last from r h tamuts tamu edu rithea hong newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware subject re perfect mag mx f monitors date sat apr a friend of mine got a mag of the above model and it had some distrotion so he sent it back unfortunately the replacement also was distorted i would bet it s a common problem the best advice i ve heard when buying monnitors is to actually look at the specific one you will buy as opposed to model since monitor manufacturing even from big names still tends to produce alot of monitors with visible defects rithea hong r h tamuts tamu edu end of file press return to quit just to name two at the top of my list of crap monitor makers are sony magnavox sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	multiport com boards info needed what or more com port boards are available for pcs we want standard com ports so no need to mention the expensive coprocessed ones they should either be able to share irqs or be able to use irqs thanks for any info
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re isa bus pin question re diamond speedstar x the jp on the speedstar x is for those systems with boot up problems if your system fails to boot up proprtly please pull off the jumper block from jp this will not affect the proformance of the speedstar x this is what my manual says about jp i never knew that it was there but the card is a real ask kicker in my book it beats the hell out of my junk sony s to the point that i can t even use above x mode much sam some times an upgrage turns out to be a big overkill like driving a sony with a x that the monitor can t handle or installing ns simms and then finding out that your mother board doesn t have a cmos wait state adjustment to take advantage of the new ns simms that you just bought gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	philips monitor does anybody have an opinion on the philips dt monitor how does it compare to the nanao i am looking for a good like many other net ers and found a good price for the philips here some the specs sony trinitron tube digital micro control x ni dp x mm display area to hz refresh anti glare mpr ii auto scan khz why don t i ever see this monitor for sale one company in apr computer shopper what is the dc what is the best price around for this and how bout that mag i love my mag except for that little color alignment thing on the l r edges brian schaufenbuel brian j schaufenbuel there is no art which one government sooner learns helser halsted than that of draining money from the pockets of the ames ia people especially college students adam smith
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wangtek tape controller card revision e address irq wanted i have a wangtek tape controller card revision e that was used with the sytos backup system to take backups of a friend s system that system has crashed and i m attempting to restore it unfortunately the documentation for this ancient card has been lost in the mists of time and i need to know the dma irq and address for this card can anyone suggest how i could determine these things there is a bank of dip switches on the card which are set to upupup upupup upup upup open thanks for your time this posting is definitive bljeghbe chugh vaj blhegh wayne mcdougall keeper of the list of shows better than star trek tm ask me about the auckland festival of missions april i always change my mind when new evidence is available what method do you use
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sound blasters in machine is it possible to have sound blasters in machine would give your the equivalent of a sb pro but with stereo digitized sound the way creative labs price pro s in oz the price is equal i suppose you could set the i o addresses to and h but what about the dma channels any way what is this dma channel sharing hype does it share the sb and hardisk dma channels or something more esoteric
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck bsardis netcom com barry sardis writes kevin kosman uucp kevin o gorman writes anybody seen the date get stuck i m running ms dos with a menu system alive all the time the machine is left running all the time suddenly the date no longer rolls over the time is reasonably accurate allways but we have to change the date by hand every morning this involves exiting the menu system to get to dos i ve started to notice the same thing myself i m running dos and win so i can fix it from the windows control panel at times it is the date at others the clock seems to be running several minutes behind where it should be did i once hear that in order for the date to advance something like a clock has to make a get date system call apparently the clock hardware interrupt and bios don t do this date advance automatically the get date call notices that a midnight reset flag has been set and then then advances the date anybody with more info john bongiovanni systems analyst orbital engine company perth australia oecjtb oec orbital dialix oz au bongo alumni caltech edu opinions expressed are my own and not those of my organisation
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	trident switch settings someone archive this t dip txt jeffrey e hundstad j gum vax mankato msus edu switch settings on the trident c xx xx xx j j xx vga graphics adapter layout dram j j j vga graphics adapter layout dram j j j j vga graphics adapter layout dram dip switches db connector for analog monitors db connector for ttl monitors note jumers j j j j j for layouts and j for layout video bios basic input ouput system tvga chip vga graphics chip edge connector for ibm pc xt pc at and compatible systems video dram up to mb feature connector for special applications video dac jumper blocks jp and jp board only note hardware option feature not present for all board versions switch settings for the switch dip box from figures switch scan rate on less than khz default off khz switch fast and slow address decode off fast address decode default on slow address decode switch bit data path off bit data path default on bit data path jumper settings j settings for irq xxx xxx off def on j settings for bus size detections x x x x autodetect standard interface def j settings for dram configuration two dram four dram eight dram j dram clock select xxx xxx mhz mhz two dram dram sw sw swich setings sw sw vga mode default on on ega mode off on cga mode on off mda hercules mode off off
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	possible faq question about a uart organization compact solutions canberra act australia hello my question is could someone e mail me the names of manufactures of the and predecsor uarts i have only seen national semiconductor are one that i know of cheers ben ben elliston bachelor of engineering computer engineering university of canberra email tp jarrah canberra edu au also ellib cbr cpsg com au uucp uunet munnari sserve adfa oz au compsol root fidonet if a train station is where the train stops what s a workstation origin compact solutions canberra act australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	w tseng card other vlb cards please hai in a few days i m going to buy a new motherboard with local bus ses it comes with a cirrus logic vlb card which has mb ram onboard it can do true color but i don t know what type of card it is i read that cirrus logic cards aren t exactly the fastes around my old system had a tseng i was pretty pleased with it so i consider buying a w tseng card i d like to know a few things how is the speed performance in dos windows unix os graphics text also compared to s cards for example what resolutions including no of colors does it support text graphics how many ram can be installed and what type of ram compatibility with old tseng support in software if anyone has any experience with this card good or bad i d like to know if you have a better alternative than the w please tell me about it for the people in holland kan iemand me misschien vertellen waar de w in nederland te verkrijg is het liefst in de omgeving van amsterdam thanks in advance erik stel estel cs vu nl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with internet i know this isn t the exact right place to put this but im desperate i ll be going home for the summer and wont have direct access to my vax account my problem is i need a service that doesn t charge body parts vital organs or my first born son that allows me access to the internet all i really need is to be able to telnet to my school account and from there i can do anything i need to do any help will be greatly appreciated please e mail to dfmorgan acs harding edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck in article qte kn usenet ins cwru edu ab cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes i can t imagine why someone would leave their computer on all of the time to start with its like leaving your lights tv radio and everything in the house on all of the time to me nuts computers are a special case and it s a pretty good idea to leave them on cuz everytime you turn on a computer you re putting a surge of electricity through its delicate components imagine you re turning on your computer or more times a day you re increasing the chances of damaging the chips memory etc on all the components of your computer so you may save a few cents here and there in electricity bills but it won t look like much when it come time to fix your computer my worth n ngo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re digitizing tablet questions rithea hong r h tamuts tamu edu wrote i m in the market for all small x or so digitizing tablet and would like any comments the main names i see are calcomp summagraphics and kurta what are the major differences any particular preference also what should i look for and what should i avoid thanks for any input you can provide rithea hong r h tamuts tamu edu ville v walveranta tel fax linda ave apt from finland oakland ca faxes automatically recognized usa email wil shell portal com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	my computer gets locked help a weird thing has happened to my computer lately it gets locked stops doing anything at any instance without any reason whatsover i might be using edit and gets locked or i might be at the prompt at the same occurs it happens almost once every times i connect the computer does anyone have the slight idea what s wrong with it if i try to use ctrl alt del after that no response i have to turn it off and back on again thanks any help will be really appreciated e mail if possible as sometimes i can t access this service enrique
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi on dos hello netters i have a question concerning scsi on dos i have a st scsi controller and two hard disks conected id s and i d like to connect a scsi streamer but i don t have software to access it does such a beast exist as shareware or pd also what if i want a third disk i know that dos only can see two two physical and four logical disks will it be possible to use extra disks thanks in advance ib ib hojme euromax dansk data elektronik a s vejle branch denmark telephone int fax int e mail ibh dde dk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi why vlb busmastering slows your system in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu smace nyx cs du edu scott mace writes have you ever seen what happens when you hook a busmaster controller to a vesa local bus it actually slows down your system if you don t belive what i said about busmastering and vlbus then pick up a back issue of pc week in whihc they tested vlbus eisa and isa busmastering cards is vlb busmastering bad because it stops the processor fetching from external cache as well as main memory while the vlb card has the bus how significant is the slowing effect
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cr rom drive recommendation hi all i would like to purchase cd rom drive the specs i would like to have is applicable to kodak multisession photo cd scsi interface compatible with adaptec b does not need any caddies cheaper if possible double speeded i believe there are no drives satisfying all of the above condition so i would like to know all of your opinion the above conditions are sorted by my priority i think nec cdr is a little bit expensive but it does satisfy almost all of the above conditions the problem is that i do not know the compatibility with b has someone succeeded to connect these nec drives to b i have heard a rumor that nec drive is incompatible with b adapter any suggestions are greatly appreciated thanks in advance kobayashi masaoki masaoki tky hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	faq on cyrix dlc reply to apoylis inode com is there a faq on cyrix dlc if i missed it could anyone please repost or email it to me thanks in advance alexander poylisher internet apoylis inode com fidonet blue wave qwk v
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	atari mono and vga have anybody succeded in converting a atari monomchrome monitor into a mono vga monitor if so please let me know exactly how you did and what graphics card you used thanx l l max brante m max tdb uu se l l l l l l l l l l institutionen f r teknisk databehandling l l l l l l uppsala universitet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re western digital hd info needed in article jester gun de michael jester gun de michael gerhards writes holly ks cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca wrote my western digital also has three sets of pins on the back i am using it with another hard drive as well and the settings for the jumpers were written right on the circuit board of the wd drive ma sl the jumper is used if the other drive a conner cp xxx no jumper set drive is alone ma drive is master sl drive is slave yo yo yo the western digital hd will hve it marked either s m a put jumper on the s its printed on the circuitry underkneth it hope i helped i had the same problem bye later daze oharad wanda waiariki ac nz michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re weitek p future plans in article apr jetsun weitek com robert weitek com robert plamondon writes in article q n pinn m uniko uni koblenz de hodgen ozzy uni koblenz de wayne hodgen writes to sum up when an accelerated board with mb vram true colour x and a fast vga side is available under i will buy one me too what s funny is when we really can buy such a product it probably won t seem as mouth watering as it does today what no holograms get outta here i can wait cos i ve already got an accelerated card it does x but only colour you may mock me but such cards will be here quickly enough one of the odd things about the computer industry is that since you can always wait and get something better some people wait forever i know people who have deferred updating their original ibm pc for a decade because every time they look at what s available they see something better coming down the road i know people who ve dumped their pcs into the garage but haven t replaced them because they re afraid it isn t the right time to buy they just gave up using computers i only wait when the difference between my current system and the new stuff is big enough to warrant changing for instance i ll be upgrading my to a dx eisa vlb board rsn the performance difference under linux is great enough to be worthwhile at the same time i ll be buying a new graphic card and new scsi controller i ll be buying an s card cos they re fast enough i have x drivers for them and it ll have mb vram just like a weitek card it will also be much cheaper when affordable mb cards arrive i ll buy one personally my system at home needs a new disk subsystem a much larger monitor a super fast graphics board by you know who a new cpu board i probably won t keep much more than the case and the mouse come to think of it i don t like that mouse very much so when will i buy when my dream products hit the market no way i m gonna buy as soon as i have the money over the last year i ve done much the same but now i need a monitor more memory mb just ain t enough a gb disk gb and no space left oh well stay single don t smoke and you may afford it this year wayne hodgen hodgen infko uni koblenz de opinions c me intel sx uni koblenz unido infko hodgen keeper of the scrolls just rheinau voice defender of the net say koblenz fax his name is root no
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cards on a card motherboard carl christensen christen astro ocis temple edu wrote this may be the dumbest question of the year but is there a way to piggyback or expand a slot motherboard all bit to get the usual my case has slots for and i d like to get a scanner but with all my other cards i m already max d out i m hoping that a simple solution exists e g an adapter that turns i m not sure if this will work but how about using one of those t expanders used in the low profile cases they allow slots staggered on either side of the card you can install it in the last slot and then probably have or sideways slots this is actually how it is done in the low profile cases a standard motherboard the t connector in one slot and the expansion cards plugged into the t i guess you could do this at each end of the slots to add even more the t connectors are simply tracks with slots on them no electronics on it the only downside your case won t close but for a homebrew system that may not be a problem don t know about performance though i ll leave that discussion to the engineers gerry george anything good in life is either school of management boston univ illegal immoral or fattening internet ggeorge acs bu edu any item not in the above three compu erve compuserve com categories causes cancer in rats
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	partition table disappeared help my computer won t recognise my disk after a reboot windows crash grrr are there any options to restore everything without losing data the drive previously had partitions but i do not remember the exact settings i have copies of the boot data from the disk pc tools rescue disk i do not want to lose my data mb ide drive do i have any options gerry george anything good in life is either school of management boston univ illegal immoral or fattening internet ggeorge acs bu edu any item not in the above three compu erve compuserve com categories causes cancer in rats
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	small pc i m looking for a pc that is small and doesn t break apart if you drop it on the groud it doesn t have to have graphics text only will do just fine it doesn t have to be fast either will do i hope but you must stand a pretty hard enviroment without breaking apart jumnping on it or trying to use it outdoor while it is raining and so forth i need kb of memory and a convinient way of loading applications into it that i wrote myself floppy or somekind of writeable cartridge is there a pc like that and where can i get more info i know of the atari portfolio but it can t stand the rain marco seirio in real life sp marse caligula his s
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re possible faq question about a uart in article qjp binn fmsrl srl ford com glang slee srl ford com gordon lang writes national semiconductor i don t know if other manufacturers make equivalent chips or not maybe national isn t even the original but they are the only one that i know about ns ns c ns c ns af ns c and ns c no argument on going direct to national see my previous post on this topic but some info regarding what you said above i don t know about the or but ns was the original source for the series and i strongly suspect that they developed the others first too i can also tell you that i m one of those who won t buy a uart made by anyone other than national semiconductor jim include std disclaimer h de n ial internet jim n ial mythical com j graham ieee org icbm n w amateur radio n ial w zbb ft walton beach fl amtor selcal nial e mail me for information about kamterm host mode for kantronics tncs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	non turbo speed just taken delivery of a mhz dx machine and very nice it is too one query the landmark speed when turbo is on is or something mhz thats not the problem the problem is the speed when turbo is off its mhz the equivalent in car terms is having a nice porsche with a button that turns it into a skateboard does anyone have a clue as to what determines the relative performance of turbo vs non turbo i would like to set it to give a landmark speed of about or mhz with turbo off cheers nic percival well that was a piece of cake eh k micro focus newbury piece of cake master radial slice of baked ext confection coefficient of relevance to nmp mfltd co uk key to time zero dr who
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info on font cartridge for hp laserjet ii i am looking for good add on font cartridge for hp laserjet ii i found in pc magazine article iq enginnering and pacific data products are well known maker of cartridge for hp laserjet series but i couldn t find the model name of these products any suggestions please thanks in advance hakamata atsushi sony corporation osaki technology center
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	and what s the difference except from clock frequency what are the differences between the various types of and processors the following is a list with what i know or perhaps only what i think i know can anybody extend correct true bit processor cache sx emulates with a bit bus true bit processor internal mathematical coprocessor correct internal cache correct how big extended instruction set in any way sx probably sorta like dx probably sorta like well it s not much but i m sure there is a lot of people out there who can add a lot of information post or email as you prefer lars j dal q what s the difference between a quantum email joedal dfi aau dk mechanic and an auto mechanic physics student at the a a quantum mechanic can get his car into university of aarhus the garage without opening the door denmark david kra
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re booting from b drive hi i think vga copy can do what you need if you create a new floppy for your a drive that is the turn on the modify switch of vga copy when you boot using this diskette a message appears this is no system disk you can replace disk with another boot from harddisk or switch drives and reboot that is a becomes b b becomes a type your choice when you select the third item you can boot from b which is now called a seems to work very good for example booting drdos from the installation disks in format was no problem for a friend of mine i have only a a drive hope that helps robert p s vga copy is shareware so it s easy to get newest version seems to be robert fuhge haagstrasse erlangen tel privat email rtfuhge cip informatik uni erlangen de demnaechst erlangen wars are not for to see who is right but who is left robert fuhge haagstrasse erlangen tel privat email rtfuhge cip informatik uni erlangen de demnaechst erlangen wars are not for to see who is right but who is left
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re recommendations for a local bus cached ide controller in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article apr sol ctr columbia edu penev venezia rockefeller edu writes i have a maxtor mb on an isa ide controller although my machine is dx vlb i has the save transfer rate of mb s regardless of the variations of the isa bus speed i tested it with speed between mhz and mhz not any difference the problem is not the interface between the controller and the memory my advice buy megs of ram save and enjoy performance computer mhz bus isa mhz drive maxtor a mb i d still like to here from people with vlb ide i still want to know what vlb bus speed is used with ide drives i still want to know if some most ide drives can handle bus speeds mhz i recently bought a micron dx vlb computer and the the local bus ide card was getting around k s transfer rates says norton i caled micron because this seemed pathetically slow and they said that norton xx doesn t recognize local bus and won t give accurate results i was told i would need norton in order to get a true account of my ide transfer speed i didn t really like this answer in part because the drive doesn t seem as though it s cranking along at much more than that but i also don t know if i could tell the difference i tried playing around with settings in the cmos bus speed at the like and noticed no significant change in performance b fed frank shea learn of the skillful frank shea he that teaches himself fas ultb isc rit edu hath a fool for his master rochester institute of technology ben franklin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi on dos in article apr dde dk ibh dde dk ib hojme writes i have a question concerning scsi on dos i have a st scsi controller and two hard disks conected id s and i d like to connect a scsi streamer but i don t have software to access it does such a beast exist as shareware or pd also what if i want a third disk i know that dos only can see two two physical and four logical disks will it be possible to use extra disks contrary to what others might have thought i actually did have a scsi drive once it was the seagate n and the st controller i found that the controller couldn t keep up with a interleave so the best i could do with the drive was a interleave and a data transfer of about k sec i have had that drive controller coexist with mfm rll and ide drives because the st bios will kinda muscle itself in there with no help needed from the computer s bios dos will see many logical drives much more than i ve had up to i ve often wondered how many scsi drives you could hang off a st
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vesa local bus hi i was wondering if anyone out there could point me to where i can get the vesa specifications or any relevant books on this subject regards jimmy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	trident cs drivers for win hello i ve got an old trident cs svga card but lacking suitable drivers for windows the drivers for the series seem to be incompatible does anyone have an idea of where to get these drivers address for an ftp site would be nice thanks in advance jouni jouni marttila yo kyl b turku finland jmarttila abo fi jmarttila finabo abovax jmarttila jjmartti utu fi pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo fi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re and what s the difference in joedal dfi aau dk joedal dfi aau dk lars joedal writes except from clock frequency what are the differences between the various types of and processors the following is a list with what i know or perhaps only what i think i know can anybody extend correct true bit processor cache no cache sx emulates with a bit bus true bit processor internal mathematical coprocessor correct correct internal cache correct how big kb extended instruction set in any way was it six instructions sx probably sorta like dx without the mathematical coprocessor fpu dx probably sorta like actually the you described above is dx there is no separate nor either this is for intel processors does anyone have a complete list with cyrix and ibm products anssi anssi saari s ee tut fi tampere university of technology finland europe
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re rockwell chipset for s any good tdbear dvorak amd com thomas d barrett writes in article im u c camelot im u c camelot bradley edu joe zbiciak writes what s the word on the chipset is this a rom bug specific to a specific brand using the rockwell or is it the rockwell chipset itself there were an assortment of firmware problems but that is pretty much expected with any fax modem talking with a different fax or modem which may have also been revised or is new i m pretty much oblivious to any current firmware problems so you ll have to get it from someone else someone else could you please comment on that i have just bought a twincom dfi which has a rockwell chipset it wasn t cheap so i would like to hear of problems i m likely to run into however i can tell you to stay clear of any board which uses the rockwell mpu as opposed to the dpu for an internal implementation this is because the mpu used speed buffering instead of having a interface without the interface the number of interrupts are still the same and thus may get dropped under multitasking conditions like in windows as far as i know the speed buffering works ok for external modems if a is used on the internal serial port board phew i was lucky the twincom internal version has a a and one of the rockwell chips is marked rc dp but still i would like to hear more of the above mentioned firmware problems niels
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help can somone explain to me all the stuff about modems like v v hst usrobotics why cheap can t cannot connect fast to some modems just explain to me everything thanks we must believe in free will we have no choice blue wave qwk v
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi here we go again in apr mnemosyne cs du edu smace nyx cs du edu scott mace writes in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes i almost got a hernia laughing at this one you ll probably get one when you realize that your vesa super dooper local bus ultra high tech controller sucks if anything scsi on a pc will be obsolete killed off by vesa local with any luck pc bus archeitecture will be doen any with by sbus have you ever seen what happens when you hook a busmaster controller to a vesa local bus it actually slows down your system bus ide it must be real nice to get shafted by bucks for the extra cost of a scsi drive then pay another for a scsi controller yeah there is absolutely no use for vlb except for video graphics and no ide could possibly take advantage the vlb because it runs at mhz and bits do people forget that the ide was specifically designed to interface directly with the at isa bus we ve seen ides come out for eisa xt isa and now even mca but at all times it was a bit standard running at somewhere near mhz when you run an ide off of the vlb there s no way that you re running it at mhz it would burn up of course same goes for scsi esdi whatever none of them run at cpu speed the only way to gain advantage with a vlb ide is to hook it up to a caching controller i suspect it would be much much better to get a software disk cache instead since you get write caching as well because you have an ide and no one makes ide disks that big i ve seen some fuji ide drives going as high as g yousuf khan
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can t get x to work w m ati ultra pro i am unable to get my gateway dx to run windows in x i ordered a m ati ultra pro and i m pretty sure the m is really there because i can select x x but no matter what i do with the flex program in the ati s program group x remains ghosted out i have windows build of the drivers dos the drivers were installed by gateway not by me so perhaps there s a file missing from the hard drive it runs x just fine i did go into the desktop window and select x sometimes it refuses ghosted out other time it accepts it but when i hit ok and re enter desktop it s back to x at no time does it unghost x in the main flex window help keith mancus mancus butch jsc nasa gov n wvr mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov black powder and alcohol when your states and cities fall when your back s against the wall leslie fish
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos question could some kind soul please email ma a response since i don t have much time to read this group question i have a mb hard drive which currently has mb left how much space will doublespace allow me to have i have a w mb ram if it matters thanks in advance jason jason brown cs au decster uta edu fav player ruben sierra
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re can t get x to work w m ati ultra pro in article apr aio jsc nasa gov mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes i am unable to get my gateway dx to run windows in x i ordered a m ati ultra pro and i m pretty sure the m is really there because i can select x x but no matter what i do with the flex program in the ati s program group x remains ghosted out i have windows build of the drivers dos the drivers were installed by gateway not by me so perhaps there s a file missing from the hard drive it runs x just fine i did go into the desktop window and select x sometimes it refuses ghosted out other time it accepts it but when i hit ok and re enter desktop it s back to x at no time does it unghost x in the main flex window help maybe you need to go into mach install and set a refresh rate for x you might need to use custom monitor option dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	question about fastmicro i thought i read that fastmicro was having some financial difficulties is this true i can t seem to find the posting about it and was wondering if someone can confirm this thanks eric sebastian
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what disk drives are out there when sw is delivered you will often always get k diskettes if you opt for the inch format how big a tage of existing pc xt at ps s have these low capacity drives as their only diskette station o o ooo ooo richard soderberg md the karolinska institute systems analyst mic kibic voice library and fax medical information center snail po box doktorsringen c s stockholm s stockholm email richard micb mic ki se sweden
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with magitronic bit memory card needed hi i m busy resurrecting some old machines hey they re cheap and they work and would be grateful for any help with the following card magitronic full length bit memory only card has room for rows of k dips for a total of mb ram has an position dip switch on it presumably for addressing does any kind soul out there have any docs or drivers for this beast i d be disgustingly grateful thanks lee lee tosspot sv com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bit mfm hd controller wanted hi again okay am getting an old at type together as well anyone have a bit mfm hdc they d like to sell wd is preferred but adaptec and dtk are fine too for that matter almost anything so long as it works lee lee tosspot sv com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cga card monitor wanted and again title says it all why lee lee tosspot sv com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	serial multiport card for sale selling arnet multiport card four serial ports on one card s with docs and drivers for os and dos works great with unix flavors too aggregate is probably around kb offers also willing to swap for monitor lee lee tosspot sv com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi on dos in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes it was the seagate n and the st controller i found that the controller couldn t keep up with a interleave so the best i could do with the drive was a interleave and a data transfer of about k sec according to what others have told me the st n is difficult to run at the interleave even though seagate claims it i have a non pc system don t ask what it is you probably haven t heard of it that is built around scsi and it can t do either brian bcwhite sunee uwaterloo ca in theory theory and practice are the same in practice they re not
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck in article qte kn usenet ins cwru edu ab cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes i can t imagine why someone would leave their computer on all of the time to start with its like leaving your lights tv radio and everything in the house on all of the time to me nuts we have plenty of computer labs where the computers are left on all the time i don t see any shorter lifespan than the ones we have in the offices which does get turned off at the end of the day in fact some of the computers in the labs have outlived some of the same ones in the offices but it goes both ways so can t conclude anything thomas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with dtk i o plus ii card needed i am trying to help a friend of mine get the second serial port on his dtk i o plus ii card working and it does not want to cooperate the documentation is no help at all as an example it says the serial port can be changed to com from com by moving jumpers but does not say what jumpers to move there are banks of jumpers the first one is labeled as follows c c s p p g the second bank is labeled irq and has the following labels c s s c s i have determined that the c c jumpers tell it to address the first serial port as com or com the p p jumpers tell it to use the printer port as lpt or lpt i am guessing that the g enables the game port and the s should enable the second serial port but i can t get it to work i have tried numerous setting on the irq bank without success i assume that this bank must tell the card which irq s to use for both ports but i don t know how any suggestions would be greatly appreciated ebd elliot dierksen is that a real poncho i mean is that a mexican poncho or is that a sears poncho hmmm no foolin f zappa w e dierksen att com h elliot alfred uucp
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors mikey sgi com mike yang writes in article qslfs bm access digex net rash access digex com wayne rash writes i also reviewed a new nanao the f iw which has just been released what s the difference between the f i and the new f iw i m about to buy a gateway system and was going to take the f i upgrade should i get the f iw instead mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com the f iw is optimized for windows it powers down when the screen blanker appears it powers down with you turn your computer off and it meets all of the swedish standards it s also protected against emi from adjacent monitors personally i think the f i is more bang for the buck right now
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what s the diff between mouse sys com what s the difference between loading mouse com in autoexec bat and doing device mouse sys in config sys which one is better thanks a lot enrique
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	fastmicro out of business i heard fastmicro went out of business is this true they don t answer their number it s
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re and what s the difference in article joedal dfi aau dk joedal dfi aau dk lars joedal says except from clock frequency what are the differences between the various types of and processors the following is a list with what i know or perhaps only what i think i know can anybody extend correct true bit processor cache no cache also called dx sx emulates with a bit bus it has the same internals as the is a real bit processor just has bit hookup to the outside world true bit processor internal mathematical coprocessor correct yes optimized internal internal cache correct how big yes k extended instruction set in any way yes but only a few instructions nothing noteworthy sx probably sorta like with no coprocessor dx probably sorta like nope just another name for the frank racis fwr psuvm psu edu fwr eclu psu edu computers are useless they can only give answers i will not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for my programs wjbc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how is a loopback connector made i need to know the pins to connect to make a loopback connector for a serial port so i can build one the loopback connector is used to test the serial port thanks for any help steve
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help need diagnostic disk for my compaq deskpro in article apr clam rutgers edu steuer clam rutgers edu robert steuer writes my emergency management group was given about compaq deskpro s from a local company as they were outdated problem is though it seems that the cmos settings cannot be set without this diagnostic disk we get this error msg on boot up system options not set run setup insert diagnostic diskette in drive a if someone has this disk please e mail me thank you robert m steuer amateur radio kf ek n foa epa pa usa na rutgers university internet steuer clam rutgers edu vhf repeater system cherry hill nj kf ek repeater mhz computer operating system os why settle for less robert you have probably solved your problem by now anyway if you can get your hands on qa plus version maybe others as well it will let you write the compaq cmos settings i know because i just did it i was just about to search for such a diagnostic disk when my brother in law fixed an old deskpro with it you might try the simtel mirror ftp sites george
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article qulqa hp access digex net rash access digex com wayne rash writes the f iw is optimized for windows it powers down when the screen blanker appears it powers down with you turn your computer off and it meets all of the swedish standards it s also protected against emi from adjacent monitors thanks for the info personally i think the f i is more bang for the buck right now how much more does the f iw cost mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	us robotics info wanted could someone please give me some info regarding the usr sportsters that have recently dropped below i was going to buy a used courier v bis external without fax for but now i see the sportster with fax is selling below brand new are these good modems what warranty do they carry any info very much appreciated kevin hollyk mcmail cis mcmaster ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cyrix dlc cpu anyone using this cpu what is your impressions of the cpu performance compatability there is a benchmark program called comptest said cyrix cpus have a bug so they cannot run the program also may be nextstep regards desmond li lut uk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	new svga card hi all hardware netters i ve seen recently on some magazines advertising a new trident graphics card call cl the ad said it s new and faster how is it compare to tseng et btw which is the fastest non accelerated svga on the market any info or benchmark are welcome thanks in advance regards desmond li lut uk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	g k jumbo backup problems i have a colorado memory systems jumbo tape backup unit in my gateway v tower system i have found the supplied backup capability to be fairly unreliable in approx cases out of i have had the backup fail at one point or another often hanging in the middle of writing the tape seek errors drive communication errors seem to be most common i use the dos backup software from colorado memory systems should i return the drive get some better backup software reformat the tapes am using cms tapes any hints would be appreciated this stuff is to time consuming to do over and over again until it cooperates steve norman snorman den mmc com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info of maxtor sy scsi jumper id setting i got a harddisk shipped with an ide specification but not the scsi spec would someone tell me how to set the jumper on the harddrive thanks please email response philip sinn sinn carson u washington edu university of washington
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mitsumi and sb pro hi i just bought a mitsumi cd rom drive and a sb pro soundcard the pin outs on the cd rom line out and the sb pro cd in are not the same i am considering taking the rca output jacks on the mitsumi interface card and routing them to the line in input on the sb pro will this work with multi media software that uses the cd rom and the sb pro or do i need to go to the cd in pins on the sb pro thanks john john manning opinions expressed are my own j manning csc enet dec com i do not represent digital equip
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vesa lb what is bus mastering i read an article about the benefits of a vlb motherboard it said that a true vlb board supports bus mastering otherwise it is just as good as an isa motherboard doesn t all vlb motherboard support bus mastering i just bought a vlb and the tech manual does not explicitly state the words local bus mastering but it said it supports bus master and slave modes are these terms synonymous thanks ps please reply by e mail as i don t read this newgroup often
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	winjet accelerator card anyone familiar with this video card what chipset does the winjet use s as i am in the market for a vlg video card what is the best chipset among s cirrus logic and tseng lab ati is out of the question too expensive thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth giving winmarks i have just installed a diamond stealth isa card in a dx system with k cache and megs of memory that gets about a si cpu benchmark rating using the x x color driver under windows i am getting a winbench winmarks rating of only about million since i have heard that others get to million for this card i assume that something is very wrong with my setup what are some possible causes of the card slowing down like this i ran the qualitas asq diagnostic program on memory and i noted the following memory timings on my machine asq v by qualitas system analysis mon apr am page access timing hex kb kb access speed ratio start start size time us a b c c e f note two things on this chart the video memory appears to be many orders of magnitude slower than system memory are there wait states being inserted here and what would cause that the ems page frame seems to be ridiculously slow even though it is being mapped to the fast xms memory in my system through emm what s going on there note that my stealth s video bios at c c ff is being shadowed through the ami bios any ideas on what might be happening here will estes internet westes netcom com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cd rom drives has someone a list of cd rom s with no scsi interface and if known how much they are present in the market please mail direcktly as i am not reguarly reading the group i ll post a summary if wanted thanks ihno ihno krumreich phone u u n n iii x x synerix gmbh email ihno generics ka sub org u u nn n i x x bach strasse fax u u n n n i x d w karlsruhe u u n nn i x x uuu n n iii x x ihno krumreich phone u u n n iii x x synerix gmbh email ihno generics ka sub org u u nn n i x x
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboards hard drives i have just a few quick questions does anyone here have a dlc system a cyrix dx any problems with it second how much should a cyric dlc motherboard with no ram run me rd should a total amatuer like myslef be able to perform a motherboard swap without the aid of a technician or is it beyond hope th i hear that some if not all hard drives may require reformatting if you switch them to another computer or motherboard as the case may be is there any truth to this any replies would be greatly appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re umbdr zip any later version fombaron ufrima imag fr fombaron marc writes is there a more recent version of umbdr zip because it doesn t work on my machine my motherboard has symphony sl c chips and they say it will be supported in the later versions so is it out thank you for helping marc the last i heard the author was having some problems in his immediate family and had delayed the continuation of development for a time this was some months ago it s a shame the driver is the best memory manager i have found anywhere it doesn t require v mode like qemm so it works with ultima it doesn t take any memory runs then exits if only the emm provider were a little faster and more stable tmcreek eos ncsu edu these views respresent no one now you creek tm aza csc ncsu edu even i won t claim them are here include std funny stuff h this is where i include some witty tripe
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dec mt adaptec scsi comm conflict i have a dec nt dx that has an adaptec scsi controller hard disk and cd rom drive when i add a comm ethernet card c and reboot the system i receive an error message that a boot device cannot be found pull the comm card and reboot everything is fine i ve moved the controller and comm card to various slots different positions slot before the controller slot after the controller with the same result dec hasn t responded to the problem yet any help would be appreciated edward t keegan facility director e mail keegan cs yale edu yale university computer science department phone prospect street room fax new haven ct
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth giving winmarks in article westesc qvap bgj netcom com westes netcom com will estes writes i have just installed a diamond stealth isa card in a dx system with k cache and megs of memory that gets about a si cpu benchmark rating using the x x color driver under windows i am getting a winbench winmarks rating of only about million since i have heard that others get to million for this card i assume that something is very wrong with my setup what are some possible causes of the card slowing down like this most importantly which winbench version are you using on my local bus ati graphics ultra pro i ve gotten various winbench scores from million to million winmarks depending on the version winbench gives the most optimistic scores gives the least a winmark rating is meaningless without a corresponding version number dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re recommendations for a local bus cache in article sol ctr columbia edu penev rockefeller edu penio penev writes on apr gmt divya sundaram sundaram egr msu edu wrote i would like to hear the net wisdom and net opinions on ide controllers i would liek to get a ide controller card for my vlb dx motherboard what are good options for this preferably under it must also work under os and be compatible with stacker and other disk compression s w i have a maxtor mb on an isa ide controller although my machine is dx vlb i has the save transfer rate of mb s regardless of the variations of the isa bus speed i tested it with speed between mhz and mhz not any difference the problem is not the interface between the controller and the memory my advice buy megs of ram save and enjoy performance penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine i also have a dx and a maxtor i have a local bus ide controller generic and i get kb s i tried swapping my local bus ide controller for an isa ide controller and my transfer rate went to kb s the specs for this drive show a maximum platter to controller transfer rate of mb s i dont know how to get there from here the local bus interface got me a little but certainly not as much as i had hoped i am also looking for a way to improve my disk performance but im not convinced that the controller is the bottleneck although im willing to entertain the possibility that it is i am already running a big main memory disk cache so im not really interested in this solution either chris brinton teradyne inc brinton icd teradyne com my opinions are my own but you re welcome to them
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re winjet accelerator card gv fragante fragante unixg ubc ca wrote anyone familiar with this video card what chipset does the winjet use s as i am in the market for a vlg video card what is the best chipset among s cirrus logic and tseng lab ati is out of the question too expensive thanks winjet is not a video card it s printer accelerator manufactured by lasermaster eden prairie mn willy ville v walveranta tel fax linda ave apt from finland oakland ca faxes automatically recognized usa email wil shell portal com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help installing second ide drive in article qn iv darwin sura net wbarnes sura net bill barnes writes recently my cousin got a second internal ide drive a seagate mb i can look up the model number if it s important and i ve been trying to help him install it i ve got a vested interest since my machine s busted and i have to use his until i get mine fixed he already has a seagate mb ide hd again i forget the model number but i can find out anyway i can t seem to get the bloody thing up i ve managed to get one or the other drive up with the other disconnected but not both at the same time whenever i try the thing hangs during bootup never gets past the system test the ide controller s instruction sheet says it supports two drives i think i ve configured the cmos correctly the power s plugged in properly i even learned about the master slave relationship that two hds are supposed to have didn t know pcs were into s m and i think i configured the jumpers properly the mb one is the master the new mb one is the slave the only thing i can think of is maybe i m doing the cabling wrong i ve tried several combinations controller master slave controller slave master master controller slave none of them worked unfortunately i can t think of any others another possibility is that the mb one is already partitioned into two seperate drives c and d and the cmos asks for c drive and d drive setup info rather than drive and drive like most others i ve seen could this be confusing things so i need help the drive came bereft of any docs except for some info for the cmos setup the controller has a little piece of paper about the size of an index card i cannibalized the cable it s one of those with a connector at each end and the one in the middle so it looks like a serial connection now i be lost many many thanks in advance this is practically an emergency i have two papers to do on this thing for monday help william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net voice fax disclaimer i don t speak for suranet and they don t speak for me i ve been told by our local computer guru that you can t do this unless you perform a low level format on your existing hard drive and set your system up for two hard drives from the beginning i took him at his word and i have not tried to find out any more about it because i m not going to back everything up just to add another hdd if anyone knows for sure what the scoop is i would like to know also thanks in advance also bill willis
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help my esdi is posessed by demons help i really got ripped off and i need some help unripping myself i bought a maxtor mb esdi hdd from hi tech for then paid to get it repaired for about another here s the deal the thing works fine it low level formats etc without any bad spots at all and then jaws music sectors start going bad eek one at a time norton disk doctor keeps marking some u and some c that fixes it for about minutes then next day when i run ndd on it again no dice more uncorrectable and correctable sectors ahhhhhuuuurrrrrrggggghhhhh so i fugure ok ndd s just not being thurough enough i ll use spinrite i heard that works well what happens spinrite goes and returns the clusters to active use ahhhuuuurrrrrrggggghhhh ndd undoes it of course the problem seams to be getting worse and worse however when the hdd is low level formatted again the problem goes away for a while only to return in a day or so i m so pissed off right now i m considering buying another hdd and i really can t afford it i m using smartdrive and windows i m not using the bit disk access though i know that can create problems the disk is using the second option to trick the controller into thinking it s got less then cyls and everything else selected is standard maybe i need to use a different head skew or something i don t know anyone who knows how to fix this problem please tell me how help gt designing tommorow the night before with yesterday s technology
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help ten beeps with ami bios i have a motherboard with ami bios i haven t located the little motherboard manual yet and suddenly it s giving me beeps when i turn the power on it was working fine this morning then gave all kinds of problems in windows and outside it after multiple reboots now it only gives beeps and sits there anybody know what beeps means thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with motherboard w no docs well i was told that my last message came through without anything in it so i ll try again i have a leading edge sx with a flaky motherboard and a friend game me one to replace it but he didn t have any docs for the mother board it s a cheertron board with award bios and has a sticker on it that says vi t t on it i can tell what most of the switches on the blue blocks mean except fdc and sh but i have no idea about all the jumpers i ve replaced hard drives and modems and installed math co processes but this is a bit out of my league and without the docs i m really lost if anyone could give me some help on this i d really appreciate it i don t get on news regularly so if you can help please e mail me at passman world std com thanks shirl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with c and ncsa telnet help i m trying to configure ncsa telnet v to work with a c ethernet board i can use ftp fine but whenever i attempt to use telnet the machine hangs with a blank screen and a blinking green cursor any ideas please e mail lepper maat mct anl gov mjlepper mtu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth giving winmarks does your stealth have a row of dip switches on the back plane if so you have the older revision a board and the winmark results are absolutely normal the later revision b board benchmarks at to million winmarks at least mine does in dx toy v
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q connor pc jumper settings anyone who knows this answer off hand please answer me by e mail quickly there is a pair of jumpers on one side and a set of or on the other end one is labeled sync and one cd and e e e whhich do i need to short or disconnect to get drive to operate in slave mode give me a label or geographic label as they have quite a few jumpers and i don t wanna try the trial and error method i am using ide i think this drive is scsi compatible too jimmy jimmyhua usc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help needed in setting up ncsa telnet w appletalk or phonenet okay i m trying to install ncsa telnet on a couple okay a whole bunch of machines they re all true blue ibms with either fallon phonenet cards or dastar cards i belive those names are correct well the docs for telnet say that it ll run over an appletalk driver but i ve had little success if anyone has succesfully installed telnet w appletalk i d like some help with the config file for telnet btw please reply via e mail if possible thanks jeremy jeremy zawodny computer science undergrad bowling green state university jzawodn andy bgsu edu student computer consultant thrilled os user
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q scsi ide i e or more hard drives please response directly to me luoma binah cc brandeis edu by email if there are a sufficient number of interesting responses i will post a summary on april or i have waded through the mass of scsi ide posting but i missed any answers to a question posted early on has anyone successfully put both scsi and ide hard drives on the same system i am particularly interested in having the scsi as the boot drive for those who have managed this feat i would appreciate a bit more information such as what drives which scsi controller and if possible what motherboard bios plus any other relevant info thanks in advance robert luoma luoma binah cc brandeis all flames will be stored on my worn drive
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re recommendations for a local bus cache penio penev penev rockefeller edu wrote i have a maxtor mb on an isa ide controller although my machine is dx vlb i has the save transfer rate of mb s regardless of the variations of the isa bus speed i tested it with speed between mhz and mhz not any difference the problem is not the interface between the controller and the memory chris brinton brinton icd teradyne com wrote i also have a dx and a maxtor i have a local bus ide controller generic and i get kb s i tried swapping my local bus ide controller for an isa ide controller and my transfer rate went to kb s the specs for this drive show a maximum platter to controller transfer rate of mb s i dont know how to get there from here the local bus interface got me a little but certainly not as much as i had hoped i am also looking for a way to what is the deal with the ide transfer rates is anybody getting throughput anywhere close to the platter controller rate i haven t seen anything even close to the mb sec limit of the ide interface these drives are non interleaved aren t they here are the rates i get sequential read msdos c program that uses bios calls to read sector blocks sequentially from outside first track inward mhz bus mhz bus maxtor lxt kb sec kb sec quantum lps kb sec kb sec disk buffer read same c program but re reads the same block repeatedly so in effect is reading the ram buffer on the drive mhz bus mhz bus maxtor lxt kb sec kb sec quantum lps kb sec kb sec coretest v transfer rate seems to agree with above mhz bus mhz bus maxtor lxt kb sec kb sec quantum lps kb sec kb sec i managed to get hold of the quantum lps at product manual and it goes into excrutiating detail describing how the bits get from the platter through the controller and out the ide interface nowhere do i see anything like after the bits are whipped of the platter at high speed they sit around in a buffer to thaw before they are sent to the host even though i swear that s whats happening here are some relevent quotes from the manual data is transferred from the disk to the read buffer at a rate of mb s maximum mb s minimum my calculations show kb sec maximum and kb sec minimum disk spins at rpm with sectors per track on the outside and on the inside single burst errors of up to bits within one sector can be corrected on the fly in real time as they occur allowing a high degree of data integrity with no impact to the drive s performance i take this to mean error correction isn t the bottleneck for page mode operations the data transfer rate to and from the buffer ram is up to mb s this high transfer rate allows the at interface ic to communicate over the at bus at a data transfer rate of mb s while the dcs simultaneously controls disk to ram transfers so the thing can even do it s cache pre fetch while it s sending the requested sector it has kb read buffers for pre fetching i guess you could call that a cache so when i do a sequential read on the outer tracks why am i getting a measly kb sec when i should be getting around mb sec any of you hard disk engineers out there know wondering why my disks are so slow david o o ooo ooo david stam linux the choice of a gnu generation stam netcom com un x x r openlook gcc tex free
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	will somebody create a messie dos faq please was dos question hi there i think it is time to create a ms dos faq since lots of questions about it are actually flooding the net i won t be able to write it my self because of the lack of time knowledge experience perry egelmeers
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi here we go again in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu smace nyx cs du edu scott mace writes if you don t belive what i said about busmastering and vlbus then pick up a back issue of pc week in whihc they tested vlbus eisa and isa busmastering cards do you recall which issue this was in i posted a message related to this a while back to provoke an argument so that i could get the straight dope on this this article would probably give me all the definitive answers that i want ed stasic estasic ic sunysb edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re winjet accelerator card in c r ya ef unix portal com wil shell portal com ville v walveranta writes winjet is not a video card it s printer accelerator manufactured by lasermaster eden prairie mn i know there s a winjet for the laserjet and there s also a winjet accelerator video card this is probably not available in the us but i am sure it is being marketed in canada i thought you guys over there would have heard some thing about it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pentium clock counts does anyone have a list of the clock counts for pentium instructions or know if the integer mul is down to tick thanks hw stockman hwstock sandia llnl gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	amd i clones now legal in us a friend of mine called me on the phone and told me he was wathcing cnn and saw a report that the ruling prohibiting amd from selling their i clones has been thrown out making it legal for amd to ship in the us can anyone out there verify this thanks in advance phil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need pinouts for ext db floppy connectors please hi all this is my first posting so be gentle i have a zenith external floppy which has a db connector and i d like to use it with my sharp and toshiba laptops which also take a db for their ext floppy but it doesn t work i have the pinouts for the zenith and would like to make adapters so i can use it does anyone have pinouts for these or other manufacturers db ext floppy connectors i would greatly appreciate this info either by e mail or fax thanks very much jeff aka flyboy coyote trw com fax jeff wright flyboy spf trw com phone fax trw one space park o redondo beach ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth giving winmarks hi when posting winmark results it is a good idea to give the version of winbench that you used to obtain the scores as well as the resolution that you tested and the version of the drivers eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re uarts was uucico for windows turtle west darkside com fred waller writes s are not stupid actually they are in the sense that hardware solutions to a software problem are not proper a programmer s function much deleted amazing i could not find one reference to waffle in all of this followups redirected out russell schulz russell alpha ersys edmonton ab ca ersys rschulz shad c
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re can t get x to work w m ati ultra pro in article apr aio jsc nasa gov mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes i am unable to get my gateway dx to run windows in x i ordered a m ati ultra pro and i m pretty sure the m is really there because i can select x x but no matter what i do with the flex program in the ati s program group x remains ghosted out i have windows build of the drivers dos the drivers were installed by gateway not by me so perhaps there s a file missing from the hard drive it runs x just fine i did go into the desktop window and select x sometimes it refuses ghosted out other time it accepts it but when i hit ok and re enter desktop it s back to x at no time does it unghost x in the main flex window help keith i had a problem getting colors i was stuck with even though the flex stuff said i was at i solved it by entering the advanced window on the flex program pannel and changing the color palette sorry for the vaugeness i hope it helps some btw i have a gw v and m ati gup matt sexton sexton claes space lockheed com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors mikey eukanuba wpd sgi com mike yang writes in article qulqa hp access digex net rash access digex com wayne rash writes the f iw is optimized for windows it powers down when the screen blanker appears it powers down with you turn your computer off and it meets all of the swedish standards it s also protected against emi from adjacent monitors thanks for the info personally i think the f i is more bang for the buck right now how much more does the f iw cost mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com i think the difference is about dollars but i could be wrong these things change between press time and publication
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how much should i pay for a scsi cable with or connectors in t y b w w hub parallan com danj hub parallan com dan jones writes also i seem to remember a posting saying that the scsi spec calls for foot between devices on the cable but most cables you get internal don t meet the spec scsi ii draft proposal rev h section single ended cable which is in the cable requirements section has an implementor s note stub clustering should be avoided stubs should be spaced at least meters apart for the non technical stubs are scsi devices however also be aware that implementor s notes are basicly recommendations they are not part of the spec as others have noted many vendors including sgi violate this indeed the main point is to reduce impedance changes and therefore reflections and therefore noise on the bus let no one tell me that silence gives consent dave olson because whoever is silent dissents silicon graphics inc maria isabel barreno olson sgi com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can i have printers on a pc lan i have recently plunged into pc world i have been using amigas before trying to establish a network lan here that could use different printers panasonic kxp for printing receipts and okidata ol for letters etc is it at all possible in this world i know when using unix etc i can specify which printer to print from but i am not sure how pcs would handle that if they can t then i guess i ll leave peeeceees for good and move on to unix mubashir cheema sparco communications ph lagalarie fax russell street suite email mac ra msstate edu starkville ms
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	avi file format hi would someone please email and post the avi microsoft file format i wish to do some research using this format as there are disks available with video clips it is interesting because it interleaves sound and video thank you mark gregory lecturer m gregory rmit edu au ph fax royal melbourne institute of technology department of communication and electronic engineering p o box v melbourne victoria australia mark gregory lecturer m gregory rmit edu au ph fax royal melbourne institute of technology department of communication and electronic engineering p o box v melbourne victoria australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	utility to switch cap locks ctrl keys being a big fan of the official ibm keyboards i have a ps keyboard attached to my clone computer i want to know if there is a software utility out there that can be used to switch the locations of the ctrl and cap locks keys even better does ibm or any third party make ctrl and cap lock key replacements that can be used to visually switch the keys as well will estes internet westes netcom com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can t set com i have been unable to get com to work diagnostic programs such as msd show nothing installed i think the software options are ok is there a known hardware conflict and or workaround for this problemand cd rom system is a g k dx tower with ati video card ports are set as follows on board coma com irq to external device internal modem com irq dfio port card primary port com irq mouse on board com b com irq does not work i have run this from a boot disk with only command com to eliminate softwar any suggestions before i call technical support john siegel k bnc cbnewsh att com jas hrollie hr att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	run box w o cover b i am interested in getting the pulse of this group regarding b extended operation of my g k v with the cover removed b from the enclosure there are a of reasons i am considering b this including quick access to jumpers during complex i o card b setups b my concern is that without a complete enclosure to direct the b cooling flow of air from the fan hot spots may develop on my b motherboard or elsewhere if you have an adequate supply of air moving over the system most offices or homes have positive ventilation you can generally run a system without the cover for extended periods without a problem i m talking about completely removing the cover not just leaving the slots uncovered however the biggest reason you have a cover to begin with is rf sheilding operating a system without the full cover may create problems with other equipment such as your neighbor s tv or ham radio station very much a no no in the eyes of the law slmr a remember they re only tools not a way of life via dlgqwk v a
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re umbdr zip any later version 
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos i know of two people who have horrer stories about the dos that s of the people i know with dos both have had to reformat their disks and start over one had drive d compress and work fine only to compress c to have the thing choke spit out an unintelligable warning and then hang all that was left on either drive was autoexec bat and config sys calls to microsoft only met with busy signals after reformatting the drive i m not sure if he had the guts to reinstall or stay with a known entity the other may have been a marginal drive however his upgrade failed he had to format a floppy disk at format the drive and then reinstall i make now claims since i was not driving at the time however be careful and make sure you back important things up i am interested in any other people with similar or success stories
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hayes external ac pins hello i have a hayes moden with no cables or manuals the modem requires a source of v ac but i do not know how to connect the power source to the pin connector i know that the top pin is the ground so i would guess that the other two are the ac pins right if you have any hints please e mail me i really need help thanks duc n
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re amd i clones now legal in us excerpts from netnews comp sys ibm pc hardware apr amd i clones now legal by poe wharton upenn edu a friend of mine called me on the phone and told me he was wathcing cnn and saw a report that the ruling prohibiting amd from selling their i clones has been thrown out making it legal for amd to ship in the us can anyone out there verify this it s true i read about it from an article in clarinet can t send it here though u s district court judge william a ingram of san francisco threw out the jury verdict prohibiting amd from using intels microcode for the david sward sward cmu edu finger or email for pgp public key d f fingerprint e b c db f b fb dc f cb e stop the big brother chip just say no to the clipper wiretap chip
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sx for sale i have a sx megs ram meg harddrive stacked to w stacker floppy expansion slots drive bays vga card no monitor or interesting combination of cash and trade located in chicago please e mail to this address tmccn merle acns nwu edu or call allister at thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cdrom audio cable i am looking for a cdrom audio cable to connect my toshiba b l r audio to the pro audio spectrum sound card thanks in advance for any pointers steve steve la network manager stevela csulb edu calstate university long beach bellflower blvd long beach ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article qsa innm b dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes stuff about the connection between ide and ida deleated mhz clock bit width mb sec if ide speed come from ida where does the mb s sighted for ide come from well some quick math on my part shows that an mhz bus bits wide performing a transfer every two clock cycles will provide m bytes sec someone said that it really takes clock cycles to perform a transfer so that reduces the transfer rate to mb s which is the commonly used figure for isa bus speed however i believe a two clock transfer is possible wait states richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck jamesc netcom com james chuang writes when you leave your radio on at night it may not be doing anything useful but computers can do something useful even when you are not in front of it just because ms dos and windoze does not know how to schedule tasks does not mean that all computers hould be shut down every night i bet starting up nt every morning means a good coffee break jamesc if someone asks if you are a god you say yes in addition to startup time i leave things running because my pc doubles as a fax machine however this is off the original subject i didn t get the replies on bios cmos and dos clock date logic all i know is that i ve been running this way for many months and it is only recently the last month that i have noticed the intermittent clock problem as i stated it is not always the date that doesn t roll forward sometimes i notice that the clock is several minutes behind where it ought to be when unattended the following are generally running minimized in win clock winfax pro print manager ms word file manager program manager a random screen saver is generally running too barry sardis home laurie avenue office san jose ca fax email bsardis netcom com or compuserve com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors has anyone taken a look at the new viewsonic they claim x at hz how does it compare with the t i in terms of price and quality of display living on tulsa time rusty foreman rforeman trc amoco com amoco production research uunet apctrc zrdf p o box phone tulsa ok fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway booting from floppy i have a gateway dx v with my inch floppy as drive a i accidentally discovered that if a have a floppy from one particular box of diskettets in the a drive when i boot up rather than getting the non system diskette message the machine hangs and the cmos gets overwritten luckily gateway sends a print of the standard cmos settings with their systems this only happens with a box of pre formatted fuji disks that i have no other disks cause this problem if i re format one of the fuji disks the problem goes away i did a virus scan scan v of the disks and found nothing anyone have any idea what is going on here hardware problem a virus that can t be detected the system reading in garbage from the boot sector tim king tcking uswnvg com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vl bus hdd fdd controller or ide hdd fdd controller hi i am buying a quantum lps at mb hardisk and is deciding a hdd fdd controller is bit vl bus hdd fdd controller faster than bit ide hdd fdd controller card i hear that the vl bus controller is slower than a ide controller which one is true please shed some light by email or post thanks a lot best regards beng hang tay telnet singapore networks operation phone hewlett packard singapore pte ltd fax depot road internet taybh hpsgm sgp hp com singapore republic of singapore
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re debugging possible hardware problems in article r rslinnnv senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john f carr writes i m running linux on an eisa system and i m having what i think are hardware problems it could be software but i don t see why i d be the only one having trouble i d like some advice on how best to debug this the symptom when i try to build gcc i get unpredictable and unrepeatable results sometimes a o file is not in valid a out format recompiling the file gives me a valid binary sometimes the compiler aborts or dumps core but works fine when run again with the same input compiling the same source files with the same arguments gives slight differences in a few object files note that linux unlike many other systems does not put timestamps in object files so compiling twice should give bit identical results i also have occasional filesystem corruption on my scsi drive but that could be caused by using development software it could also be related to my problems compiling the compile problems are not caused by disk problems i get the same results whether i do my work on an ide or scsi disk i ve set the memory speed and cache write speed to the recommended values recommended for what dos that is a junk i suspect the external cache but i have no real evidence for this the motherboard is a nice super eisa with kb write back cache and a dx mhz processor what i m looking for a system test program to run under dos or linux linux gcc fire up gcc to compile libc and kernel at the same time running x r suggestions about the cause of the problem bad memory bad motherboard bad cache suggestions about how to debug the problem change wait state of ram turn off turbo change bus speed swap ram h j
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re what s the diff between mouse sys com x sanson gw wmich edu wrote what s the difference between loading mouse com in autoexec bat and doing device mouse sys in config sys the only difference is the time the driver gets loaded mouse sys will be loaded during the config sys and therefor before the command com mouse com will be loaded during autoexec bat and so after the command com which one is better mouse com could be started from the commandline after the booting and it could perhaps be unloaded if no other driver is loaded after it the working of both drivers is totally the same when i ran dos i preferred loading most of the drivers in autoexec bat because some programs won t run with some drivers and i could choose the ones i needed during startup but with drdos this advantage is gone because drdos lets you choose in config sys which drivers should be loaded michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help ten beeps with ami bios g wayne nichols gwni troi cc rochester edu wrote i have a motherboard with ami bios after multiple reboots now it only gives beeps and sits there referring to the manual of my motherboard with ami bios beeps are a cmos shutdown register read write error if the system stops after these beeps if the system continues it is a keyboard error michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re weitek p future plans in article qttufinn dr uniko uni koblenz de from apr gmt you wrote in article apr jetsun weitek com robert weitek com robert plamondon writes in article q n pinn m uniko uni koblenz de hodgen ozzy uni koblenz de wayne hodgen writes to sum up when an accelerated board with mb vram true colour x and a fast vga side is available under i will buy one supermac just announced a new line of pc accelerated cards that do x in bit color they start at retail i don t think your wait will be very long rupert
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	reboot problem from x b usma usma edu tue apr received from usma usma edu by trotter usma edu smi eef id aa tue apr edt received by usma usma edu eef id aa tue apr edt message id aa usma usma edu date tue apr edt from x b usma usma edu peckham david cdt to cs au decster uta edu subject problem status or i am running a unisys pw sx with dos my problem even when i had dos is that when i have emm loaded i can t ctl alt del if i do the computer beeps a few times rapidly and hangs then i have to use the obscure reset requires a screwdriver or pencil or the power switch to reboot does anyone have a solution to this problem e mail me at x b usma usma edu dave thanks dave david s peckham internet x b usma usma edu u s military academy jason brown cs au decster uta edu fav player ruben sierra
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sound blaster midi hi i m currently in the process of writing a number of pd programs for the sound blaster the first of which is a cmf voice editor which is hopefully going to be available soon as soon as i can get it to an ftp site anyway the next stage is to use the midi port to enter music and play the fm synth remotely the problem is that i have little or no info on the sb midi port i have tried using the sound blaster freedom project routines however this just results in the port locking after a couple of accesses and loss the of note velocity data byte i am using turbo c and would be grateful for any info or source fragments may help when i was in berlin this summer i saw a book which seemed to have all this information but my german is poor to say the least if anyone has this book could they please mail me my second request for help concerns standard file formats how can a file format be standard if you keep it secret i need to know the file format for instrument bank files bnk and roland music files rol finally does anyone have a source for displaying pcx or gif files to ega or vga monitors please help you know it makes sense colin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sending a null character across ethernet i have a question regarding sending a null character across ethernet connection the actual problem is that emacs unix editior needs the null character for setting a mark and unfortunately we don t know how to sent that from ibm pcs across ethernet i am wondering if anyboy knows the keyboard combination for sending the null character btw control shift which ctrl does not work thanks saeid
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re can t set com in article c rajn cbnewsh cb att com k bnc cbnewsh cb att com john a siegel writes i have been unable to get com to work diagnostic programs such as msd show nothing installed i think the software options are ok is there a known hardware conflict and or workaround for this problemand cd rom system is a g k dx tower with ati video card ports are set as follows on board coma com irq to external device internal modem com irq dfio port card primary port com irq mouse on board com b com irq does not work i have run this from a boot disk with only command com to eliminate softwar any suggestions before i call technical support john siegel k bnc cbnewsh att com jas hrollie hr att com i had this problem some time ago some bioses do not automatically install com or com in the port tables programs like most modem programs which write directly to the port work fine but anything that uses a bios call fails find a bbs or ftp site where you can get a copy of port finder put device pf sys in your config sys or run pf com from your autoexec bat this little program will locate all existing ports and make sure the bios tables are updated it works great pf will also let you swap ports and such also if that is of any value to you allen mulvey mulvey blurt oswego edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need advice to select sound card hi i need some advice from the netland in selecting a sound card i am about to buy a sound card for my kid i don t know which one to buy which one to select from the following list sound blaster miscrosoft sound card audio spectrum sound blaster pro sound blaster my allocated budget is around could some of you know about sound cards help me to select the most appropriate one for my kid i have mz opti mb i also have nec cdrom that i would like to connect to the sound card thank you kent khioe juno jpl nasa gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re funet fi artieb vnet ibm com writes i saw a posting earlier that refered to funet fi directory pub msdos however when i log on to funet fi i cant even find the pub directory let alone the msdos directory can someone tell me what i m doing wrong perhaps you should try nic funet fi instead of funet fi nic funet fi is the biggest ftp site from europe but the stuff available there should also be available at the other site of the big pool perry egelmeers
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ati build drivers good in article c fomu o austin ibm com larryhow austin ibm com writes how stable are the build drivers are people having success installing and running with these i ve been using the build drivers on a gw k dx v for several weeks with no problems i m running windows in x and all software i ve run has worked fine this includes many games and the cd based multi media encyclopedia on which the full motion video works fine i d recommend you give them a try john john gayman wa wbu uucp uunet wa wbu john packet wa wbu wb eah
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gamecards i own an sx mhz mb ram machine and am finding it too slow for certain games such as x wing i was in a computer store there the other day and saw a series of gamecards which claim to speed up your machine to up to mhz i was wondering if anyone out there who has a similar machine had bought one or seen one of these gamecards and whether or not they do actually work any help here would be much appreciated thanks in advance greg when a man lies he murders some part of the world or does he eggman
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re no bit box on gateway i got this from gw from gateway aol com x mailer america online mailer to pastor vfl paramax com subject re bit disk access date mon mar est message id tn aol com status ro jon to get bit access in windows all you have to do is edit the system ini look under the enhanced section and add this line to it bitdiskaccess on this will give you the bitdiskaccess that you need thanks regards scot oehlerking g kscooter gateway
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	eric bosco where are you eric send me your email address i lost it i ve reconsidered kevin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pcs from gateway opinions sought sorry if this has been beaten to death on this forum i am looking seriously at buying a dx from gateway i will probably buy it without a monitor as i ve heard negative stuff about gateway monitors i ve also heard its tough to get through to technical support i m seeking opinions on whether or not its wise to go ahead based on criteria such as price warranty service general ruggedness of the system reliability of the machine and of gateway too and so on please advise thanks in advance vasudev murthy vasudev murthy any opinions expressed are strictly murthy asl dl nec com my own and have nothing to do with advanced switching lab nec america inc walnut hill lane irving tx
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	summary doubledisk gold v hi netters as promised here are the summary of opinions on doubledisk gold v people seem to be quite happy with the product there is no much of opinion on how good it is compared to the industry leader stacker superstor pro is not considered since it is slower than stacker although just as reliable byte magazine s conclusion so it s hard to make any decision to go with stacker or with doubledisk gold v however it seems that at it is quite a buy buddy christyono buddy optics ece wisc edu summary of replies hello buddy i do not have dd gold experience i just ordered it i currently have dd the last version i am very pleased with its performance here is my suggestion if you do not have any compression software currently i would go with dos s compression all the discussion on the net indicates that for you get the compression built into the os plus the other utilities that you would pay way more than for besides you are now at dos whatever that means if you have doubledisk already like i do the cost is for the upgrade after thinking about it and asking the net i decided that i could not go wrong with the update cost i have never suffered from performance of dd i have a ms hd with large sw packages in both compressed and uncompressed format it works great not delays i think the a is better than b arguements are a lot of bunk they are all comparable in performance i am looking forward to being able to loadhigh the dd sw that has been an annoyance if you have stacker et al currently i would not see it worth the effort to upgrade just my regards mark bagdy buddy i got the same mailer about weeks ago i got ddg and installed it the documentation was in my opinion easy to follow i used the automatic installation not the custom and everything went smoothly there were some specific instructions on a readme file for dealing with max qemm ddg has an uninstall unlike dos if you need it my system has a mb hard drive before installing ddg i had mb free after ddg i had mb free pretty good statistics considering that my mb permanent windows swap file stayed on the uncompressed portion along with other drivers and such i have had no problems whatsoever i have noticed no slowdown other than it takes a little longer to boot either in windows or dos so far i am a very happy camper bruce bruce f steinke never know when you re going to bsteinke dsd es com need a good piece of rope software technical support engineer sam gamgee evans sutherland computer corp my mail my opinions i have been using doubledisk gold for a little more than a month on a dx mhz mb seagate drive running dos windows in enhanced mode i ran some tests and concluded that the speed of a doubledisk drive with a drive read cache is about equal to the bare drive without a cache i have no complaints about reliability it was very easy to install the only problem i had was with castle wolfenstein d i assumed the game was trying to bypass dos disk access and moved the game to the non compressed region of the disk since then the game has never given me a problem there was never any damage to the doubledisk drive compression performance for the whole disk has held steady around this is lower than expected but about size of my files are compressed image files and some large zip files if you have any more specific questions let me know dan i bought it an have been happy with it i use it on both mfm and ide mb drives i was using doubledisk before gold came out that is the same product msdos is shipping with no problems with either product ron bjornseth bjornset pogo den mmc com end of messages
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vlb bus master problem i am trying to put together a new pc with vesa local bus i would like to get vlb cards for video and scsi but i have heard of a problem with bus mastering controllers on vlb something to the effect that they will actually slow down a system anyone heard of this problem specifically i am interested in the ultrastor f vlb scsi controller before i shell out the bucks for this thing i would like to get the straight scoop from someone who knows does anyone have this controller any problems with it bob kimball rkimball qualcomm com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re no bit box on gateway in article apr hpcvca cv hp com scott hpcvccl cv hp com scott linn writes while playing around with my gateway local bus machine last night it became apparent that windows didn t give the option for bit access for virtual memory i am using a permanent swap file and the disk drive is on the local bus interface is this expected or should i be investigating further why no bit option appears you need to massage few switches in your system ini in the virtual memory section flip the bitaccess switch on and the associated driver wdctl or some such switch on this will enable bit access but be sure you can use it as not all hard drives and controllers support it for seriously fast disk access throw out windoze install os i did this weekend os is incredible finally a real os for the humble pc tim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re x on ati ultra w nanao i mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes reference to running ati s install program and using its functions to position size images at various resolutions i thought this was a neat feature until i noticed that when an image is re sized the scanning frequency is necessarily changed this causes digital multiscan monitors like my mag mx f to get confused as to which mode to use if the frequency gets too far from the standard selections for this reason i use the factory defaults for position size on the ati card and adjust each mode individually only the first time at the monitor the mag and many other multiscan monitors has have the ability to recall these settings the next time each mode is detected edward mcclanahan edm wrs com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos i know of two people who have horrer stories about the dos that s of the people i know with dos both have had to reformat their disks and start over i used the standard installation program to put ms dos on my machine with stacker already installed no problems i kept stacker rather than switch i am very pleased with the memory i gained since i did not have a memory manager i also like the multiple boot feature
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how is a null modem cable i am interrested in the extrodinarily simple concept of the null modem cable actually i have no idea so don t count that last statement what i m asking is what pins does it use or what are it s specifications i just want to solder one myself instead of buying one i don t even know what port is used help me please at ke kimmell vax cns muskingum edu kevin p s i m intending to use the cable for pc to pc transfers via lap link or telix ideas and info gladly accepted
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	kentucky fried cmos beats hardees hey folks is it possible to short out your cmos chip i think mine is fried these are the symptoms i have to do the following to get my computer a gateway dx to boot turn the power off disconnect the battery to the cmos chip turn the power on get into setup upon getting the cmos configuration error set up the cmos exit the setup with f phoenix bios ignore the diskette seek error and press f the computer then boots normally both hard drives are accessible but the floppy drives are not i can back up over the network and such but if i need to reboot i have to turn off the computer and repeat the steps above if i simply ctl alt del the computer hangs after the memory test does this sound like the cmos chip is fried can i buy another one where thank you for your kind attention john john c lusth becton dickinson research center rtp nc usa jcl bdrc bd com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted your opinions on the insight talon ta or ta multimedia kits for those of you who might be familiar with insight distribution network inc and their multimedia kits i m seriously considering buying the insight talon ta mm kit which is bundled with the cd rom drive with ms access time kb dtr multispin multi session photo cd capability etc and with the pas sound card etc if you are familiar with insight you know the kit i mean i believe the drive is either a texel ms or an nec ms but it is not clear to me which one is actually a part of the bundle at least two of their sales people couldn t give me a straight answer as to which one ah yes one of the drawbacks of oem other questions excuse my ignorance but is texel a reputable maker in the cd rom market or do you think nec is the better drive bottom line is this kit worth the money currently for the ta and for the ta alternatively i was thinking that the ta might be overkill for my uses however i do want full multimedia capabilities photo cd stuff educational programs for my kids etc and considered the lower end ta kit and using the difference around to get something else useful like a tape back up drive unit basically i would just like to hear from those who have actually used these kits and whatever pros cons you might advise preferably directly to the email address below thanks koji koji kodama by nippon motorola ltd ryvg email sps mot com note the opinions expressed herein are mine and do not reflect the opinions or policies of motorola inc or its affiliates
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how hot should the cpu be how hot should the cpu in a dx machine be currently it gets so hot that i can not hold a finger on it for more than s i keep a big fan blowing on it but am considering using a heat sink any advice chris kushmerick kushmer bnlux bnl gov i found my niche in life i just didn t fit in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article c shlj ere trc amoco com zrdf trc amoco com rusty foreman writes has anyone taken a look at the new viewsonic they claim x at hz how does it compare with the t i in terms of price and quality of display i m interested in the new viewsonic as well has anyone seen one of these monitors in the flesh tony
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mounting cpu cooler in vertical case i just installed a dx cpu in a clone motherboard and tried mounting a cpu cooler on the chip after about hour the weight of the cooler was enough to dislodge the cpu from its mount it ended up bending a few pins on the cpu but luckily the power was not on yet i ended up pressing the cpu deeply into its socket and then putting the cpu cooler back on so far so good have others had this problem how do you ensure that the weight of the cpu fan and heatsink do not eventually work the cpu out of its socket when mounting the motherboard in a vertical case will estes internet westes netcom com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re hint vlb isa eisa motherboard in article c ovwv lmo news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian j schaufenbuel writes i am looking at buying some companion brand vlb isa eisa motherboards with hint chipsets has anybody had any experience with this board good or bad any information would be helpful thanks brian j schaufenbuel i believe that any vl eisa isa motherboard that uses the hint chipset is limited to bit eisa dma where real eisa dma is bit the hint eisa dma has the mb ram addressing limitation of isa for this reason i would pass i own one of these hawk vl eisa isa and am look ing to replace it for exactly this reason please double check me on this in other words call the motherboard manufacturer and ask them if the motherboard supports true bit eisa dma other than this limitation the motherboard works quite well i am using mine with dos windows and unix s r also with adaptec a eisa scsi host adapter gary korenek korenek nmti com network management technology incorporated sugar land texas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings these lpt com disk controller are call devices there are devices that requires exclusive interrupt ownership eg disk controller i and keyboard i there are also devices that does not require exclusive ownership ie it will share an interrupt with another device eg lpt no in a standard isa bus the one that almost all non laptop pcs use two separate interface cards cannot share an interrupt this is due to a screwup in the bus design for example if your soundblaster wants to drive interrupt number then it must hold a certain bus wire to or at all times depending on whether or not it wants an interrupt this precludes letting another card assert interrupt number when two or more devices in an isa bus pc share an interrupt it s because they re implemented by a single card andrew klossner andrew frip wv tek com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re zeos computers i have had a zeos for a couple months while the experience was not painless or perfect it was way better than that endured by most people i personally know who have ordered gateways of course several of the gateway buyers were rewarded by getting free stuff as gateway can t seem to keep track of what it has or hasn t sent out b i got the mb viper card the first one was defective but zeos replaced it with only minor hassles this one works fine i haven t noticed any problems in any of my applications i also ordered it because of all the complaints about the ati a few months ago guess you can choose either buggy state of the art stuff or robust average stuff for my particular configuration tower watt supply pkg no monitor viper etc the zeos was slightly cheaper than gateway austin etc but this can change from month to month mike
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm link to imagewriter help hello i am trying to hook an apple imagewriter to my ibm clone i seem to have a problem configuring my lpt port to accept this how can you adjust baud parity etc to fit the system i tried mode but it did not work if anyone can help post of e mail thanx abort retry format doctor give me the chainsaw trust me i m a scientist larry henson
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how hot should the cpu be christopher kushmerick kushmer bnlux bnl gov wrote how hot should the cpu in a dx machine be currently it gets so hot that i can not hold a finger on it for more than s i seem to recall that s run somewhere close to the boiling point of water anyone have an exact temperature anyway putting a cpu fan heat sink on it won t hurt and could help depends on how paranoid you are damien neil dpn po cwru edu until someone debugs reality the best case western reserve university i can do is a quick patch here and there cmps eeap linux the choice of a gnu generation erik green
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re orchid p vs fahrenheit mini review in article apr adobe com sherwood adobe com geoffrey sherwood writes in going with the modern trend the orchid p card only supports colors in x mode without a driver of course this breaks any dos program which uses svga modes like most of my cd roms this is not the case the rom on the p supports vesa modes of up to x in colors vesa compliant applications should have no trouble setting these modes but i m forwarding your posting to our software group just in case can t be too careful not that i doubt that your applications are failing to run lots of stuff depends on figuring out which exact svga they re looking at and don t use vesa calls vesa is still pretty new every new chip set confuses them the supported resolutions really annoy me you can do x at hz if you tell the driver you have an nec fg they only have about six monitors listed plus generic and if you choose generic you can t get any high refreshes at all but at x you are limited to hz seems to me that the hardware should be able to support the bandwidth if it can do hz at it sure should be able to do it at higher vertical resolution was the main reason i bought the card over the orchid f vlb i currently have and it will do x x hz as well i think we go to at least hz at x x and maybe more and it s a function of the ramdac speed not the power we need to fix the problems you ve noted they were already on the list if you re really interested though take a look at the text file p res dat which holds the data from which the choices in the p monitor installation program are built working by analogy you can build up a new monitor definition that has the right combinations of refresh rates for your monitors keep a backup copy of the file once you ve built a new version of the p res dat file run the p installation program inst and your new choices should show up this assumes you have the weitek v drivers you can tell the rev number by looking at the modification time of the driver is version microsoft uses this gimmick too the board is faster that the ofvlb for most things according to the hercules speedy program this program tests various operations and reports the results in pixels second i don t have the numbers for the graphite card but they were close to half of the ofvlb ie slower but that was running in a mhz isa so the numbers aren t really comparable the following numbers were all obtained using a mhz air motherboard umc chipset with mb memory i give ranges because the program reports the numbers as it computes them and these tend to jump around a bit the speedy benchmark was put out by hercules and iit who to my knowledge were unencumbered by any motivations except making the hercules graphite iit agx card look really good so i d take the numbers with a ton of salt texas instruments did the same thing with wintach trying to make the look good compared to the as if anyone cared it s safer though not safe to use benchmarks from unbiased sources such as testing labs columnists etc interestingly the solid vectors and shaded polygons show no improvement and hatched polygons ie filled with cross hatching and ternary rops whatever they are graphics operations like xors maybe are a dead loss on the i think you ll a large discrepancy between the results of speedy and the results of anything else in the universe on these things i give two numbers for the fonts because i think they are caching when the fonts are first drawn on the screen they are done fairly slowly the speed of the ofvlb then the speed increases dramatically sounds like programming to a benchmark to me font caching is a perfectly legitimate optimization windows has hooks for it built right into the gdi what s kind of silly is iit s use of a hardwired the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog then sat on a tack string in their driver not only is it useless in real applications it lacks the programming elegance of the bart simpson optimization in which you save the bitmap of the most recently drawn string in off screen memory and just do a screen to screen bitblit if you happen to be given that same string a second time in a row we call it the bart simpson optimization because bart s the only person we can see benefiting from it he could right i will not cheat on benchmarks a hundred times and be done in half the time it would take to actually form each character i make no claims that these numbers mean anything at all its just what i saw when i ran them on my computer i normally don t write disclaimers but this time maybe i d better my testing is totally unconnected with my work i program under unix on decstations is done completely without the knowledge blessing or equipment of my company we don t have any lawyers they re all working for intel there used to be a lawyer in montana who didn t but he died robert robert plamondon robert weitek com pay no attention to the man behind the curtain i the great and glorious oz have spoken scene from a trade show
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	do the mb ati ultra pro and bit windows drivers work hi there we just bought a dx gateway system with a meg ati ultra pro video card everything seems to work fine except for the windows drivers for x bit and x and x bit modes the fonts and icons start deteriorating after windows startup and within minutes of use everything on the screen is totally unintelligible naturally i called gateway tech support to inquire about this the technician asked me about the drivers and i told him it was version build he told me that the and bit drivers for the ati ultra pro simply do not work is this true if so i m simply amazed how could this be the strange thing is i would have expected to see some discussion on here unless the subject has made the faq one very suspicious point that came up later was that he stated that none of the windows accelerator boards have working and or bit drivers for windows i easily challenged him on that because i ve been running a diamond x in bit mode at home for months now and i have tested and used the bit mode as well he then backed off and said well diamond has been working on those drivers much longer anyway i just wanted to see if anyone else had any trouble and what they did about it any feedback will be appreciated the system configuration is gateway dx local bus megs ram scsi hd cd rom ultrastor f local bus scsi controller ati ultra pro local bus with mb vram dos windows mach drivers version build thanks in advance ali r vali reza magellan ae utexas edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re problems with toshiba cdrom in article apr news columbia edu imj cunixa cc columbia edu imad m jureidini writes hi i recently purchased the toshiba cdrom i own an adaptec b scsi card and i have so far failed to get the cdrom to work under dos it works very well under os so i know that the drive is not faulty in my config sys i have aspi dos sys aspidisk sys aspicd sys in my autoexec bat i have mscdex which came with dos mscdex seems to find and install the drive as drive f but when i switch to that drive and try a dir i get an error message telling me the drive is not ready or something like that the cdrom is locked too and the adaptec utilities don t seem to recognize that i have a cdrom at that point has anyone ever had this problem is there something abvious that i am missing and finally i was wondering if anyone using this setup could kindly post his her config sys and autoexec bat hi one of the aspi drivers i think it s the aspicd supports a norst paramter which means to not reset the scsi bus when it loads this fixed the problem a friend of mine was having with his adaptec tosh regards terje
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	volante warp board i ve been troubleshooting the existence of way too many general protection faults on a eisa vlb system at this point i think i ve narrowed the problem down to the video drivers for the volante warp adapter by national design inc yet somehow i find this hard to believe does anyone else have any experiences with this board thanx robert moskal brooklyn usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	should i get vesa controller card i have a dx mhz with local bus would i see much of an increase in speed in my drives if i got a vesa ide controller card i need advice jimmy buddenberg internet jbuddenberg vax cns muskingum edu muskingum college
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what dma s are my system using hello i am having a small problem with my sound blaster pro and a game is there a utility out there that would tell me what dma s my system is using thanks mark brown
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re need info on diamond viper video card experiences with diamond viper vlb video card several problems the ad specified million colors at x resolution with mb of vram which is what i have this color depth is not supported with video bios version and drivers version a max of k colors are supported at x and x resolutions with mb vram with the k color choice i notice two minor irritations a under ndw when an entry in a list is highlighted such as in an open menu and then is deselected a faint vertical line often remains where the left edge of the highlighted rectangle used to be b with word for windows when you use shading in a table the display shows the inverse of the shading for example if you shade the cell as the display is the printout is ok the big killer bug is using the borland c integrated development environment the problem occurs when you click on the turbo debugger icon or use the debugger option in the run command and the debugger application goes to vga character mode as it is designed to do the screen goes haywire and is largely unreadable the turbo debugger display is all garbled through trial and error i have found that when the disrupted screen is displayed you should do alt spacebar followed by the letter r this instructs turbo debugger to refresh the screen and it does this satisfactorily i wish i didn t have to do this the bug is more than with the diamond drivers the same disruptive behavior happens with the standard vga driver that comes with windows there must be something in the video card that mishandles the vga mode the problem is not my monitor the same bug shows up when i use another monitor in place of my usual one i still like this video card and am hoping its problems will be remedied they do offer a year warranty swh apr
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how do i put an hd on an xt this may be a dumb question but i need to put a hard drive on my father s pc xt either mfm rll or ide i know how to hook it up but how do i tell the computer the geometry of the drive on my you set it in the bios but i doubt that s how it s done on an xt i thought it might be software with the controller card but the ide card for xt s that i saw didn t come with any also how do i low level format it once it s on the computer assuming a drive which needs formatting advthanksance rob rxg ultb isc rit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	the p t hay all has anyone out there heard of any performance stats on the fabled p t i was wondering what it s performance compared to the and or pentium would be any info would be helpful later bob robert novitskey rrn po cwru edu cwru cleve ohio computer engineer and c programmer now seeking summer jobs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	where can i buy a bios i m in the market to upgrade my bios to a phoenix got a new hard disk discovered my bios doesn t have a type and i would like know where i can purchase one of these things i checked with the motherboard manufacturer for the curious it s from mylex and hearing the figure prompted me to at least try to shop around problem is i don t know where to shop around for something like this i have heard that there s a bios speciality shop in the south bay and it s been alleged that they advertise in the microtimes did find the microtimes didn t find the ad or the shop so can anybody help me out on this quest to anybody who replies to this thanks in advance jeff chan these are my opinions it jeff ikos com not ikos netcom com would be quite silly if it netcom ikos jeff was also my company s
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re non turbo speed nic percival x nmp mfltd co uk wrote just taken delivery of a mhz dx machine and very nice it is too one query the landmark speed when turbo is on is or something mhz thats not the problem the problem is the speed when turbo is off its mhz the equivalent in car terms is having a nice porsche with a button that turns it into a skateboard does anyone have a clue as to what determines the relative performance of turbo vs non turbo i would like to set it to give a landmark speed of about or mhz with turbo off cheers it should be halved that of turbo ie mhz
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how is a loopback connector made uwovax uwo ca wrote i need to know the pins to connect to make a loopback connector for a serial port so i can build one the loopback connector is used to test the serial port thanks for any help steve me too skcgoh tartarus uwa edu au
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re hint vlb isa eisa motherboard in article id xnfz vj nmti com korenek nmti com gary korenek writes in article c ovwv lmo news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian j schaufenbuel writes i am looking at buying some companion brand vlb isa eisa motherboards with hint chipsets has anybody had any experience with this board good or bad any information would be helpful thanks brian j schaufenbuel i believe that any vl eisa isa motherboard that uses the hint chipset is limited to bit eisa dma where real eisa dma is bit the hint eisa dma has the mb ram addressing limitation of isa for this reason i would pass i own one of these hawk vl eisa isa and am look ing to replace it for exactly this reason please double check me on this in other words call the motherboard manufacturer and ask them if the motherboard supports true bit eisa dma other than this limitation the motherboard works quite well i am using mine with dos windows and unix s r also with adaptec a eisa scsi host adapter gary korenek korenek nmti com network management technology incorporated sugar land texas you are correct the motherboard manufacturer where i usually buy boards says that they will have this problem fixed in about two weeks brian schaufenbuel brian j schaufenbuel there is no art which one government sooner learns helser halsted than that of draining money from the pockets of the ames ia people especially college students adam smith
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re floppy only reads what it wrote in article netxcom netx com pdressne netxcom netx com peter dressner writes i have a gateway with a floppy the drive only reads files it wrote to the floppy floppies that have been formatted and contain files from other machines are unreadable also floppies that were written by this defective floppy drive a long time ago are also unreadable this sounds like a head alignment problem too right it does how does one go about fixing it are there alignment screws that you can adjust the very very first thing you do is make sure that all files on the floppies that you can currently read in the drive which aren t already on your hd or another floppy if you have two floppy drives get copied to your hd and or to a floppy in your other drive if you don t do this before fixing the alignment problem you have kissd those files goodbye well you can try to re misalign the drive back to read your floppies but don t count on be able to do so generally head alignment is something i d only trust to a good repair shop though there are have been diy guides nick fitzgerald pc applications consultant csc uni of canterbury n z n fitzgerald csc canterbury ac nz tel fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway ethernet card drivers needed hi all could anybody please tell me where i might be able to find device drivers for a couple of older gateway ethernet cards i don t have the model number off hand but they have only a bnc connector and a header connector for a novell keycard one has one installed i m looking at using these with a node copy of net that i picked up at a swap meet i d love to do lantastic or netware lite but i m a poor college student and the price was right please reply via email as i haven t had a lot of time for news because of exams and such mike gordon n loi mwgordon nyx cs du edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	otronics attache luggable info needed hi all i m looking for some info regarding an old pcmade by otronics or maybe oltronics called the attache this little beauty is an z luggable with a or inch screen monochrome cga and floppies for serial ports it has db connectors one is labled printer and i can t figure out the pinouts for them i also don t know if they are standard com ports addressable as com and com i have figured out that they ll only work with dos something if anyone can give me some pointers on this one i d be most appreciative please reply via email as i can t keep up with news lately finals are coming up you know thanks much mike gordon n loi mwgordon nyx cs du edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help with hooking irwin tape drive to pc i would like to thank all those people who responded to my post i would however like to clear some things up my tape drive is external also the connector on the back of it is of the male db pin variety as a result i cannot easily find a cost effective solution to use the drive any advice will be greatly appreciated i would prefer email thanks tony shan tonys uiuc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	for sale sound blaster card hurry well it seems that i have a soundblaster card for sale since i recently purchased a sbpro the card comes complete in mint condition with box manuals docs disks and original packaging make an offer canadian inquiries prefered respond before april e mail at acps ryevm ryerson ca j m
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re do the mb ati ultra pro and bit windows drivers work in article ut emx uucp reza magellan ae utexas edu alireza vali writes hi there we just bought a dx gateway system with a meg ati ultra pro video card everything seems to work fine except for the windows drivers for x bit and x and x bit modes the fonts and icons start deteriorating after windows startup and within minutes of use everything on the screen is totally unintelligible naturally i called gateway tech support to inquire about this the technician asked me about the drivers and i told him it was version build he told me that the and bit drivers for the ati ultra pro simply do not work is this true if so i m simply amazed how could this be the strange thing is i would have expected to see some discussion on here unless the subject has made the faq one very suspicious point that came up later was that he stated that none of the windows accelerator boards have working and or bit drivers for windows i easily challenged him on that because i ve been running a diamond x in bit mode at home for months now and i have tested and used the bit mode as well he then backed off and said well diamond has been working on those drivers much longer anyway i just wanted to see if anyone else had any trouble and what they did about it any feedback will be appreciated the system configuration is gateway dx local bus megs ram scsi hd cd rom ultrastor f local bus scsi controller ati ultra pro local bus with mb vram dos windows mach drivers version build i have been able to successfully use both and bit color modes on my gateway system although my setup is less complicated than yours it sounds as if you may have a hardware conflict or problem is your memory aperture above m i have heard rumors of incompatibilities with that scsi card with a variety of systems call up gateway and give them hell until they help you fix it dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re vl bus hdd fdd controller or ide hdd fdd controller in article hpsgm sgp hp com taybh hpsgm sgp hp com beng hang tay writes hi i am buying a quantum lps at mb hardisk and is deciding a hdd fdd controller is bit vl bus hdd fdd controller faster than bit ide hdd fdd controller card no vl bus ide is no faster than isa ide the ide interface is fundamentally nothing more than an extension of the isa bus and if you hook it to vl bus it ll work as fast as the slower of the two meaning isa speed i hear that the vl bus controller is slower than a ide controller on the other hand i wouldn t expect it to be slower richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need help identifying serial board i need some help with a multi port serial board of unknown origin i m hoping someone knows what this board is or even better what the various switches and jumbers are used for anyway here s description of the card it is a bit card although i noticed that none of the contacts in the bit extension are connected to anything it has ns an chips in sockets and corresponding connecters labeled com com there is also an external female connector with pins there are banks of switches banks of switches and jumpers i believe that i have determined by following traces that sw and sw switches in all control the interrupt level for each of the com ports sw are for irq sw are for irq and sw are for irq the other switches are beyond my meager ability to follow the only identification printed on the board is multi serial port board across the bottom there is a box for serial number but it is blank immediately below the words serial no but not in the box left for the s n are the numbers anyone have any clues your help is greatly appreciated dwayne stratsft uucp we have ways to make you scream dwayne bailey intel advertisement strategic software in the june doctor dobbs journal redford michigan
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	actix graphicsengine plus i just bought an actix graphics engine plus with megs i am not impressed i have been having all sorts of problems with the board various lock ups in windows problems with the screen not centering no flexibilty in choosing synch rates for a monitor buggy windows drivers lack of x x k driver if anyone else has one of these cards please e mail me looks like i m going to try the ati ultra plus brad bach udel edu brad cain n naf cain snow white ee udel edu university of delaware electrical engineering cain freezer cns udel edu blah blah blah alt blah
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re a drive won t boot balog eniac seas upenn edu eric j balog writes hi i recently switched my drive to a the problem is while i can read and write to both the new a and b correctly i can t boot from a floppy in a i ve checked the cmos settings it is set for floppy seek at boot and boot order a c once i had a floppy that did not have the systems files on it in a i got a message telling me to put a disk systems disk in the drive it didn t work when i do have a systems disk in the a drive this is what happens power on and memory test a light comes on b light comes on followed by a short beep hd light comes on for an instant b light comes on again then nothing happens the light goes off there is no disk activity of any kind and the screen blanks i can t even use ctrl alt del any suggestions have you checked the setting of drive a to m floppy the setting of drive b to m foppy the cable connecting the two drives to the controller card i can t remember which two wires are swapped but they determine which is drive a b i hope this is of some help steve s minyos xx oz au
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re simms and sipps mb needed yuri atmos washington edu writes i need simms and sipps mb but price should be around piece i assume you are talking about meg x simms or meg x sipps with speed of ns i would take k pieces per week if you have that price fob us port i am not waiting for an offer with that price i could only dream tiger i am waiting for an offer yuri yulaev th ave ne seattle wa home work fax internet yuri atmos washington edu uucp uw beaver atmos washington edu yuri
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	disk data compression and interleave does anyone have enough experience to report whether disk data compression has any effect on the optimal disk sector interleave offhand i expect that the time required to decompress disk data would increase the optimum disk sector interleave alan hinds
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	chaining ide drives hi i am trying to set up a conner and a quantum at drive i have the conner set to the master and the quantum set to the slave doesn t work the other way around i am able to access both drives if i boot from a floppy but the drives will not boot themselves i am running msdos and have the conner partitioned as primary dos and is formatted with system files i have tried all different types of setups and even changed ide controller cards if i boot from a floppy everything works great except the booting part the system doesn t report an error message or anything just hangs there does anyone have any suggestions or has somebody else run into a similar problem i was thinking that i might have to update the bios on one of the drives is this possible any suggestions answers would be greatly appreciated please reply to jason badry badry cs ualberta ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes stuff deleted so the lowly low density original pc fdd card used dma and the pc at hdd controller doesn t that makes real sense actually it does make a reasonable amount of sense fixed disk sectors are buffered by the controller and transferring them to memory with a rep insw or whatever the instruction is called is quite efficient single instruction goes as fast as the controller cpu know how to use the bus since the wasn t cached the bus is likely a critical resource relative to cpu performance and it s possible that dma bus interference would cause as much or more loss of cpu cycles for computing as does the rep insw sequence the floppy on the other hand is not buffered so that using the cpu for floppy data transfer as was done on the pc jr by the way really does stink wally bass
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck in article apr oec orbital dialix oz au oecjtb oec orbital dialix oz au john bongiovanni writes stuff deleted did i once hear that in order for the date to advance something like a clock has to make a get date system call apparently the clock hardware interrupt and bios don t do this date advance automatically the get date call notices that a midnight reset flag has been set and then then advances the date anybody with more info there are two problems the bios tod routine which updates the bios clock uses only bit for day increment so a second wrapping of the clock past midnight will get lost if no one calls the bios to read the clock in the meantime and the bios resets the day wrap indicator on the first get date call from anybody after the wrap indicator has been set so unless the first bios get date call after midnight is done by the dos kernel which is the only part of dos which knows how to increment the date the day wrap indication is normally lost my guess is that kevin s menu system uses bios calls to read the clock in order to display the time and is hence the entity which causes the day wrap indication to get lost even if the menu system notices the day wrap which i think is indicated by a non zero value in al there really isn t any particularly good way to tell dos about it so that dos can update the day the menu system should use dos calls to get the time which would cause the dos kernel to do the bios call and the wrap indicator would hence be processed properly possibly though the menu system can t easily use dos calls for time because dos is not reentrant and perhaps time incrementing ofters occur while the menu system is inside some other dos call wally bass
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re amd i clones now legal in us poe wharton upenn edu writes a friend of mine called me on the phone and told me he was wathcing cnn and saw a report that the ruling prohibiting amd from selling their i clones has been thrown out making it legal for amd to ship in the us can anyone out there verify this thanks in advance phil yep this was on the news great news for consumers bad news for intel
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth giving winmarks on my dx with the stealth vlb i get winmarks with ver
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re atari mono and vga in article apr oregon uoregon edu arosborn oregon uoregon edu alan osborn writes in article apr tdb uu se m max tdb uu se max brante writes have anybody succeded in converting a atari monomchrome monitor into a mono vga monitor if so please let me know exactly how you did and what graphics card you used i wish i could help i posted a similar question about two weeks ago i got no response at all i ve asked locally at my friendly atari store i was told that it should be possible but that they had no idea how it might be done nor did they particularly care to investigate please if anyone has any suggestions post them you might try asking on one of the comp sys ibm echos the best one may be comp sys ibm pc hardware i say this because the conversion seems more geared toward a pc user wanting to use that monitor than an atari user who already can use the monitor unless maybe they want to really go wild converting the monitor to vga then using it as a vga monitor with a falcon as for graphics cards assuming that the atari monitor can be modified adapted to handle vga signals you should probably be able to use any vga card at least with a res around x i haven t tried this but that would be my guess robert anisko anisko usdtsg daytonoh ncr com you might want to price mono vga monitors anyways it may be cheaper to go that route than to do the conversion besides with the falcon and beyond vga svga multisync monitors will probably be the way to go
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	multi i o card with uart s is it possible to buy a serial i o card with the uart s built in rather than having to buy them separately and socketing them in my current i o card uses s correct number the braindead ones anyway it also controls two floppy drives and two ide hard drives ideally i d like to get a new multi i o card that had serial ports with s and could also control another ide hd s it would have to have configurable addresses for both the serial ports and the ide controller so it could co exist with my existing card does such a beast exist now the hard part where can i get one in australia preferably brisbane thanks geoff green spart cs uq oz au
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re problems with toshiba cdrom in article r nt oa ratatosk uninett no hktth nho hydro com writes in article apr news columbia edu imj cunixa cc columbia edu imad m jureidini writes hi i recently purchased the toshiba cdrom i own an adaptec b scsi card and i have so far failed to get the cdrom to work under dos it one of the aspi drivers i think it s the aspicd supports a norst paramter which means to not reset the scsi bus when it loads this fixed the problem a friend of mine was having with his adaptec tosh regards terje it worked thank you very much imj cunixa cc columbia edu imad hexabyte jureidini the ultimate knight grand priest of the secrets of the undefined
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu temperature vs cpu activity this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running my friend claims that there will be little difference in the temperature of an idle cpu and a cpu running a computationally intensive job lino montuno
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	test don t read gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	color drivers i would appreciate the driver name from cica which functions as a color driver for a quadtel video card the type of chip or chipset used would suffice as well umeister u washington edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re g k jumbo backup problems in article apr den mmc com snorman den mmc com writes i have a colorado memory systems jumbo tape backup unit in my gateway v tower system i have found the supplied backup capability to be fairly unreliable in approx cases out of i have had the backup fail at one point or another often hanging in the middle of writing the tape seek errors drive communication errors seem to be most common i use the dos backup software from colorado memory systems should i return the drive get some better backup software reformat the tapes am using cms tapes any hints would be appreciated this stuff is to time consuming to do over and over again until it cooperates i ve been using an identical setup except for the tower config for several months now from previous discussions on the net the first thing to check for is dma conflicts with other devices especically if you ve got any funky ones next off suspect your tape try a fresh one good luck tim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth giving winmarks pc mag only got around winmarks when they tested the steal it sounds like you are ok jamesc if someone asks if you are a god you say yes
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how is a loopback connector made uwovax uwo ca writes i need to know the pins to connect to make a loopback connector for a serial port so i can build one the loopback connector is used to test the serial port thanks for any help from a recent byte magazine i got the following question and part of the answer deleted if you are handy with a soldering iron the loopback plugs are easy to make on a serial rs nine pin port use a female db connector and connect pins to to to and to to for serial rs pin ports you ll need a female db connector with pins to to to to to to to to to and to connected to test a centronics pin parallel port you ll need to connect pins to to to to and to in a male db connector stan wszola i haven t tried it use at own risk kkc etobkkc hisoy etn ericsson se
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any comments on eisa bus book hello i have the following list of books about isa eisa buses isa system architecture by tom shanley don anderson mindshare press eisa system architecture by tom shanley don anderson mindshare press isa eisa pc xt at e isa isa and eisa i o timing and specs by edward solari copyright isbn at bus design by edward solari copyright isbn interfacing to the ibm pc xt by eggebrecht lewis c copyright do you have any comments on any of them please reply by e mail thanks in advance manolis stratakis
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	smc e arcnet cars for sale ea i have new smc e arcnet cards for sale they are brand new each wow cup portal com wally waggoner
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hayes jt fax card for sale i have a like new hayes jt fax for sale or offer or trade wally waggoner wow cup portal com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	list of ide harddisk specs configuration of ide harddisks last update collected by carsten grammes ph hucg rz uni sb de and published regularly on comp sys ibm pc hardware there is explicitly no warranty that the given settings are correct or harmless i only collect i do not check for myself there is always the possibility that the settings may destroy your hardware since i hope however that only well minded people undergo the effort of posting their settings the chance of applicability exists if you should agree or disagree with some setting let me know immediately in order to update the list if you possess a hd not mentioned here of which you know bios and or jumper settings please mail them to me for the next update of the list only ide at bus harddisks will be accounted for if not specified the landing zone should be set equal to the number of cylinders if not specified the write precompensation should be set there are bioses that don t even ask for it another statement maybe right ide harddisk don t have precomp and lzone the precomp is a built in parameter and lzone isn t used because most if not every ide disk has autopark the jumpers names are given as printed on the hd s board often only a jumper number jp means the jumper a zero means that the jumper is left open a one means that the jumper is closed c o n n e r conner peripherals drive geometry ide at conner drives are low level formatted at the factory it is only necessary to run setup fdisk and dos format model heads cylinders sectors pcomp l zone type table led cp ut n a cp ut n a cp ut n a cp ut a cp ut a cp ut a cp ut b cp ut b cp ut b cp ut b cp e ut c cp e ut c cp ut c cp ut d cp ut d cp ut d cp ut b table table jumper settings jumper settings single drive jumper act and c d single drive jumper c d master drive jumper act c d and dsp master drive jumper c d dsp slave drive no jumpers installed slave drive no jumpers installed table all conner mbyte drives use jumper settings drive type all conner mbyte drives use drive type single master drive jumper c d slave drive no jumpers installed ut universal translate select a drive type that is close to but does not exceed the megabyte capacity of the drive the drive will translate to the megabyte capacity that you have selected led a b c d j j j j pin pin pin pin pin pin pin pin when i installed a conner cp f mb as master and a wd caviar mb as slave both with and without the cp jumper the caviar had seemingly normal behaviour however when doing writes to the caviar once in a while it would overwrite directories etc using fastback was almost impossible the workaround is to install the caviar as the master and the conner as the slave f u j i t s u details of fujitsu drives m xt standard m et m et m et m t heads physical cyl physical sec trk speed rpm capacity mb mb mb mb psu cnh led cnh cnh connector o o way ide pin function position active mode slave present mode pin iochrdy cnh jumpers pin reserved drive system drive system pin irq pin reserved pin irq pin reserved pin function position slave drive mode cnh jumpers master drive mode ecc bytes ecc bytes pin function position write protect enabled cnh jumpers write protect disabled reserved key i guess marks factory default setting for jumper bios settings bios setting for the m et in my system is cylinders sectors and heads i was trying to set my ide drive in the subject above to a slave drive for a conner mb drive and contacting the support company gave me this answer which works the factory default on sw is on off off off off off this sets the drive to be a single drive setting sw to off on on off off off makes it a slave drive sw has been set to on off off on all along model cylinders heads sectors capacity million bytes m t m t m t there are switches on the switch block on these drives only of them have a use that i am aware of from my m t manual master slave master sw off slave sw on ecc bytes bytes sw off bytes sw on write protect disabled sw off enabled sw on io channel ready disabled sw off enabled sw on i have no idea about the function of sw and sw the values listed with a are the factory default settings k a l o k kalok kl mb bios cyl heads sectors kalok kl mb bios cyl heads sectors the following jumper settings have been reported for kl but are probably also valid for other kalok drives single hd o o o o o o o o o o same row as pin of the ide connector master disk o o o o o o o o o o slave o o o o o o o o o o these pairs of pins are at the righthand side of the disk m a x t o r model cyls heads sectors precomp landing zone lxt a lxt a lxt a lxt a lxt a jumpers are as follows the bottom of the drive looks like this well sort of o o o o o o o o o o power ide connector single drive dual drive system pin numbers jumper system master slave slave drive remove remove install activity led optional optional optional slave present remove remove optional master drive remove install remove sync spindle remove n a optional remove only one drive the master in an array should have this jumper installed maxtor a j closed j closed maxtor a j open j open maxtor a j closed j open maxtor a j open j closed maxtor a j closed j closed maxtor a j open j open maxtor a j closed j open maxtor a j open j closed maxtor a j jumpers for the above drives j i o channel ready open disabled close enabled j see above j see above j operation status open normal close factory j j j j j power data cable j idle mode latch open disabled close enabled j drive model open a close a j ecc bytes open bytes close bytes master slave drive is master and alone j closed j closed drive is master of two drives j closed j open drive is slave of two drives j open j closed maxtor a default power up at bios translation parameters others possible cyl hds spt mbytes there are two sets of jumpers a set of and a set of with the power and ide connector toward you the set of is numbered left to right j j and the set of is numbered bottom to top j j the only jumper of normal interest is j jumper it for only drive in a single drive system or master drive in a dual drive system remove the jumper j for slave drive in a dual drive system j is a dummy and may be used to store the spare shunt if the drive is configured for a slave mode jumpers j j j j are factory reserved abnormal operation may occur if jumpered jumper is sync spindle enabled disabled open disabled jumper is sync slave master open slave jumper is i o channel ready open disabled maxtor a mb ide self parking universal translate drive type user defineable cyl hds wpc lz s t wpc and lz optional master j closed slave j open use j for shunt storage single j closed m i c r o p o l i s drive a a unformatted mb formatted mb platters heads cylinders performance both track to track read msec track to track write msec average msec max msec avg rotational latency msec rotational speed rpm data transfer rate upto mbytes sec internal data rate mbits sec bios settings a cyl heads sectors a master cyl heads sectors slave cyl heads sectors the a emulates both master and slave jumpers labelled j on the drive oo w only these are used oo w oo oo oo w w in in a only drive emulates both master slave in out drive is master slave is present out in drive is slave out out drive is master no slave present ie single drive m i c r o s c i e n c e microscience model heads cylinders s t size m model size m hd sec cyl m i n i s c r i b e miniscribe model at cap cyc h rwc wpc enc rate access spt comments at ms at ms at ms master slave single shunt storage n e c nec d mb bios cyl head sect nec d mb bios cyl head sect nec d mb bios cyl head sect wpcom lzone jumper jp jp for all above nec drives single master slave there have been reported difficulties in using wd caviar as master and nec drives as slave the other way it works q u a n t u m logical specs for quantum at drives compliments of computer brokers of canada model cap avg acc cylinders heads sectors track mb ms at at at at at at lps at lps at lps at lps at lps at legend jumper installed no jumper at jumpers ds ss meaning single drive configuration master of dual drive slave of dual drive self seek test at jumpers ds sp ss meaning slave when the master is quantum prodrive other than a slave in prodrive a mode slave when master is non quantum drive not used master drive pdiag mode checking dasp for slave master in pdiag mode using sp to check if slave present master in a mode using sp to check if slave present single drive lps at jumpers ds sp dm meaning slave in standard pdiag mode for compatibility with drives that use pdiag line to handle master slave communications slave in prodrive a mode compat without using pdiag line self test self test master in pdiag mode using dasp to check for slave master in a mode using dasp to check for slave master in pdiag mode using sp to check for slave without checking dasp master in a mode using sp to check for slave without checking dasp while my spec form marked the jumper name dm it is labeled as cs on my lps at drive the quantum els series model cap avg acc cylinders heads sectors track mb ms els at els at els at els at write precomp for all quantum drives probably no significance landing zone cylinders straps if an els drive is master only use ds master with slave ds or ds and sp in some cases slave no strap r o d i m e information for ro a and ro a series hard disk drives drive types model cyls hds sectors trk no blocks formatted cap ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets link options in order to install the rodime ro a series drives the dumpers for the single dual drive and led operation on the drive need to be set as described in the relevant product specification i a single drive environment the drive is described as a master in a dual drive environment the drives are described as a master and a slave this is due to the protocal the takes place between the two drives when performing diagnostics there are four links lk lk lk and lk adjacent to the way interface connector they have the following functions and are described in order as viewed from the end of the drive with the first jumper described nearest the way interface connector lk led when fitted this jumper connects the led drive to pin of the interface this allows a led to be connected to the interface an external current limiting resistor needs to be fitted in series with the led when this option is selected the value of the resistor will be dependant on the led type chosen but will be in the range of ohms ot ohms lk dual drives this jumper must be fitted when two drives are attached to a single bus it fallows communication across the way interface connector indicating to the master drive the presence of a slave lk master when fitted this signifies that the drive jumpered is a master if there are two drives connected on a single bus then only one may be jumpered in this way lk iochrdy when fitted this connects the iochrdy signal to the drive it is fitted when the drive is used in host systems that have a higher data transfer rate than the drive i e greater than mbytes per second when using interleave this jumper is not normally fitted as most hosts transfer at a lower rate than mbytes per second there are four possible master slave configurations in which a drive s may be jumpered master single drive with led on interface lk lk fitted master single drive without led on interface lk only fitted master dual drive without led on interface lk lk fitted slave dual drive without led on interface no jumpers fitted master dual drive with led on interface lk lk lk fitted slave dual drive with led on interface lk only fitted the master drive will delay power up for approximately two seconds to reduce power surges in applications where dual drives are used the other connections for a led will be found close to the way connector at the other end of the drive this led driver is not affected by the link options an internal current limiting resistor is on the drive for this led driver refer to the product specification for further details s e a g a t e there is a list of most seagate hd including mfm scsi esdiand ide on every simtel mirror under msdos dskutl seagate zip it contains info about the following drives st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st ax st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st ax t e a c model sd cyls heads sect t precmp lzone capacity physical bios ami m award m phoenix m connectors and jumpers jumper function on act selected ext led off slv present selected on two hdd s j j j off single hdd power power signal jumpers on master single off slave with units used on i o ch rdy not output off i o ch rdy is output master slave settings jumper no single on jumpered master off not jumpered slave w e s t e r n d i g i t a l caviar series name size mb cylinders heads sectors wdac wdac wdac wdac wdac wdac please note that these are the recommended cmos parameters all the disks support so called dynamic translation and should thus be able to work with any parameters having fewer sectors than the total number of sectors on the disk now according to the manual the jumper settings are as follows jumper cp ma sl single master slave slave with conner cp or cp maybe there are kinds of caviar s floating around if your jumpers read ma sl and si then use jumper si ma sl single master slave there have been reported difficulties in using wd caviar as master and nec drives as slave the other way it works when i installed a conner cp f mb as master and a wd caviar mb as slave both with and without the cp jumper the caviar had seemingly normal behaviour however when doing writes to the caviar once in a while it would overwrite directories etc using fastback was almost impossible the workaround is to install the caviar as the master and the conner as the slave wd a mb bios settings cyln heads sect lzone wenn sie sie braucht drive is master cable drive is slave second drive is a conner drive no jumper set this is the only drive useful telephone numbers miniscribe maxtor info tech support fax back bbs they list their number as maxtor quantum support fax bbs seagate info tech support fax back bbs last but not least if i could help you with my little collection and if you live in a part of the world far away from me how about a postcard for my pinboard i will surely answer carsten grammes experimental physics b og universitaet saarbruecken w saarbruecken germany
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	protected mode is there anybody who has or can point me in the right direction any information about protected mode also interested in protected mode viewed from a os point of view thanks in advance kjetil kolin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	parity error system halted anyone have any ideas i recently bought an amd the motherboard booklet says the board is a wb h i have x simms on board the machine also uses a super ide i o card model pt of course niether the motherboard or the i o card booklet clearly state who the manufacurers are i m also using a trident c svga card anyway that s all of the pertinent info i can think of my problem is that the computer often freezes or displays parity error system halted messages depending on whether i set the memory parity error checking to disabled or enabled in the setup of the bios makes sense its ami bios so it must be an ami board i just took it back to the dealer and they replaced all of the simms but i keep getting the same error more frequently now it all worked at the dealer and didn t start screwing up till i got home figures i ve tried to take out all of the simms and even re inserted them in reverse order making sure that the connections were solid my suspicion jumps to this damn all in one hd controller serial parallel game port i o card or to the motherboard god forbid can anyone help thanks peace david geller gelldav elof acc iit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any info on cyrix dru chip cyrix have released a pin conpatible clone designed to upgrade old mhz s the chips are also clockdoubling thus a mhz can be transformed into a mhz with a single chip upgrade unfortunately in australia the dru sells for a mhz and a mhz about x the price of a dx motherboard with two vlb slots how much do these thing cost in the states how well do they work thanks for any info steven pemberton o notebook sjp ogre apana org au os
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re what is at bus clk speed in article apr debbie cc nctu edu tw is cc nctu edu tw wei shi hwu writes robert desonia robert desonia hal k ann arbor mi us wrote s there is one param in the bios setup that says at bus clk i have s it set to the default of but was able to get it to work with s the si at was something i didnt want to mess anything up s so i set it back to also the pc didnt boot with it set at s s what exactlt dows this do and should i leave it at i think it s impossible to let at bus operated too much more than mhz i have a c t neat mother board and i set the at bus clock to mhz but the hd stopped when it boot so it s correct that clk n means how many wait states sm i think it all depends on your motherboard and the cards you have in your system your hd stopped boot probably because your hd controller can t handle the faster bus speed i have a dx i set my bus divider to clk that is close to mhz i can gain singificant performace increase on my video card and harddisk transfer rate when i boost the bus speed and my system work flawlessly under this setting and you know what when i go to clk mhz bus my hd refuse to boot just my cent jim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide low level format in article c h yl f news cso uiuc edu mandel romulus ehs uiuc edu hector mandel writes i accidentally tried to low level format my western digital caviar drive is there a public domain or shareware utility available that will allow me to fix it thanks i am no expert on this but i am pretty sure there is no way to recover this ide drive has mapping information written directly on drives when you low level format it the information itself is gone as well i don t think you can get it back unless you send it back to western digital and ask them to refurbish it for you jim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help blowing the stack hi everyone i have a question regarding my stack on my pc i am programming in turbo c and my program is rather large model large too i keep getting errors that i am running out of memory after a while of running the program when i compile the program it says i have meg of ram so i can t seem to explain why it crashes all it is doing is running in a loop while the operator is idle and after a while of sitting it will screw up all the variables this leads me to believe that my stack is filling up and overflowing does the program take memory up when it is calling void functions that do not return anything i have been working on this problem for days and i would really appreciate any responce if this is not the correct newsgroup i will gladly re post but this is the only i could find thanks in advance sean mars email mars carroll cc edu carroll college waukesha wi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help advice i own an k clone which does all i want except run game i want to buy the game says it requires a with k game tech support says game will run on but uses a some digitized graphics which would make it run really slow it s a card game hoyles classic card games digitized graphics are photos artwork of game fictional card players what can i do to speed up how this game would run short of an motherboard upgrade co processor accelerator card mimicking my can run at mhz any advice would be greatly appreciated gil guf psuvm psu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modems and uarts ryan jeffrey baucom rjbaucom eos ncsu edu wrote what is a uart i don t know the exact meaning of uart but i think it is something like universal arithmetic receiver transmitter normally the older boards have a or uart on board those chips generate an irq for every char they received the uart has an internal byte buffer so with the right software installed it generates an irq every chars what does it do for high speed modems is it necessary for k or higher throughput if you ran dos you don t need a because dos runs only one task at a time and the whole cpu power could be used for the transfer but if you are running a multitasking os such as os unix etc windows the cpu cannot work the whole time with one task the result are lost characters or broken transmissions because of timeouts is it only for internal modems no the only diffrence is that internal modems have the uart on board whereas external modems are connected to the computer over a serial port which has the uart on board if you have any experience with or higher speed modems please let me know what you think also any particular brand name reccomended or will a cheapo clone do just a well i use a zyxel b with a uart under coherent i m very satisfied with it but i think that nearly everyone is satisfied with his own modem michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide cable i just bought a new ide hard drive for my system to go with the one i already had my problem is this my system only had a ide cable for one drive so i had to buy cable with two drive connectors on it and consequently have to switch cables the problem is the new hard drive s manual refers to matching pin on the cable with both pin on the drive itself and pin on the ide card but for the life of me i cannot figure out how to tell which way to plug in the cable to align these secondly the cable has like a connector at two ends and one between them i figure one end goes in the controler and then the other two go into the drives does it matter which i plug into the master drive and which into the slave any help appreciated thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help adding a scsi drive i have a sx computer with a mg seagate ide drive and a controler built into the motherboard i want to add a scsi drive a quantum prodrive f mg formatted i have no documentation at all and i need your help as i understand it here is the process of adding such a drive could you please tell me if i m right buy a scsi contoler which one i know adaptec is good but they are kind of expensive are there any good boards in the region i want it to be compatible with os and unix if possible also i have seen on the net that there are scsi and scsi drives is this true does the adapter need to be the same as the drive what type of drive is the quantum connect the drive to the adapter via a scsi cable and the power cable do i have to worry about the power supply i think i have watts and all i m powering are two floppies and the seagate drive setup the bios to recognize the drive as the second drive what type of drive is this i don t have the numbers for this drive format and create partitions on the drive do i use format or fdisk i think that ide drives can t be low level formatted is it the same with scsi how exactly does fdisk work i have a reduced msdos manual clone obliges and there is no mention of fdisk ideally i would want the drive partitioned in to two partitions d and e how do i do this well that seems to be all is there anythiing i m forgetting any help is really appreciated i m lost eric ebosco us oracle com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	perstor system disk controller information needed does anybody out there have or used to have an hd controller from perstor system inc which is out of business i believe my friend received an old pc which happens to have such a controller and i am having a hard time trying to add another hd to the card i believe the controller is supposed to control mfm drives as rll drives here the model info on the card but any other similar model will probably do perstor system inc model ps fn rev ecn i would appreciate your reply directly to my e mail address below thanks ray rngai oracle com raymond ngai rngai oracle com application system analyst oracle parkway a vertical applications division redwood shores ca oracle corporation fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help choosing scsi controler i need to buy a scsi controler for my machine to use with a quantum f harddrive i know that adaptec is good but they are kind of expensive essentially i want a controller in the range that i can use with this drive i plan to use windows and later on os when it comes out any reccomendations appreciated eric ebosco us oracle com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cents keystroke where is it why does my keyboard not have a cents key c like to have my cents worth or boaring david china cat bbs c cat david sed csc com n uunet mimsy anagld c cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes scsi scsi controller chip also called scsi bit mb s with mb s burst this is advertised as scsi in byte for the pc and at these speeds not the mac the pc i have been following this mess for a while excuse my need for clarification iam thinking seriously ide vs scsi and this thread could not have come at a better time the above quote scsi scsi controller chip are we talking about a scsi device e g hd on a scsi controller or are we talking about a scsi controller that had a chip upgrade using the same chip that is on a scsi controller board thanks david china cat bbs c cat david sed csc com n uunet mimsy anagld c cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re run box w o cover biernat rtsg mot com tim biernat writes i am interested in getting the pulse of this group regarding extended operation of my g k v with the cover removed from the enclosure there are a of reasons i am considering this including quick access to jumpers during complex i o card setups my concern is that without a complete enclosure to direct the cooling flow of air from the fan hot spots may develop on my motherboard or elsewhere my g k has intake air vents in the front of the enclosure right at mb level these vents would be removed along with the top cover in this scenario rendering airflow from the fan pretty useless however short periods in this mode don t seem to heat things up too much but my conclusions are far from scientific tim i ran a out of a cardboard box for more than a year with no major effects yeah no case at all mb sitting on a static bag other than the noise from the poersupply it ran pretty good as for cooling problems i bought a inch fan and turned it on full and set the output directly on the motherboard i did finally get a case though and i am still running the parts with no ill effects i also had no kids to spill things on the mb i had no cat leaving hair on the mb etc etc on and on the two major concerns are keeping static away and keeping the mb cool enjoy david china cat bbs c cat david sed csc com n uunet mimsy anagld c cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how to search for bad memory chips rnichols cbnewsg cb att com robert k nichols writes steps deleted it s an interesting idea but the worst case data patterns developed to test magnetic media are totally different than the patterns used to detect common faults in memory chips i was having major memory problems a few monthes ago getting parity error system halted error message in windows i ran qa plus check it diagnose as well as several shareware memory checkers i had a total of meg simm in my system these store bought shareware memory diagnostics either ran fine without errors or found an error at some address that i couldn t place on a memory chip out of exahperation i came up with the now deleted steps to find bad memory chips i found moral never buy memory stamped not for sensitive or critical applications on the back anyway i did filter out all the bad memory chips using combinations of of the meg chips and creating a ram drive to test on although it dodn t alleviate my parity error problems in windows i did manage to find bad memory chips in this manner it has never failed to find a bad chip for me and the commercial shareware have always faild me either not finding the error or pointing to an addreww which i have no idea on what chip it is p s man my typing stinks today and i don t feel like futzing around with this line editor david china cat bbs c cat david sed csc com n uunet mimsy anagld c cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	kaypro jumper settings i received a kaypro i computer dos without a manual that describes the jumpers on the motherboard it came with kb and i up d it to mb but the computer or setup does not recognize the extra k does anyone know if this computer is capable of greater than k on the main board and what jumpers are required to expand it to mb some specs kaypro main board assy number phoenix bios v thanks in advance doug
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article c l e dz austin ibm com guyd austin ibm com guy dawson writes int eh same article the pc would will get plug and play scsi from the article it seems you get plug and play scsi only since scsi in full implimentation has ten not devices i beleive this last bit is just plain wrong i believe you are right both scsi and scsi support devices on the bus normally that would be the host controller and targets each of which may have up to logical units luns paul burry voice internet pburry cse dnd ca fax uucp uunet cunews cse dnd ca pburry
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vga card for fixed frequency monitor has anyone connected a high res fixed frequency monitor to their pc i have a mitubishi monitor that does x at hz but won t do any other resolutions all the video cards designed for this sort of thing are very expensive has anyone done it with an svga card i know it can be done it s just a question of getting the card at the right resolution and frequency i d like to use a mono hercules monitor as my dos command line monitor and switch to the mitsu for windows or x windows under linux or bsd any suggestions would be greatly appreciated e mail please thanks steve wechsler zaphod src src linet org call lady hawke s castle bbs please respond to my queries via e mail post also if you like because my site purges news much faster than i can keep up with it this message was made from recycled materials
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi vs ide do all scsi cards for dos systems require a separate device driver to be loaded into memory for each scsi device hooked up will this also be true of the bit os s thanks randy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi from article qq i inndqc dns nmsu edu by bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith write in article qpu uinnbt dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes since the mac uses only scsi for hard drives yes the figure includes a hundred for scsi drivers this is sloppy people and dumb what group is this this is not a mac group nice of you to delete both your responce and the item that prompted it to whit i just bought at quantum for my mac at home i paid for it i tons of stuff deleted on scsi vs ide question wow you guys are really going wild on this ide vs scsi thing and i think it s great like lots of people i d really like to increase my data transfer rate from the hard drive right now i have a ms mb ide drive seagate a and what i would say is a standard not special no cache i believe ide controller card on my isa i m currently thinking about adding another hd in the mb to mb range and i m thinking hard you should hear those gears a grinding in my head about buying a scsi drive scsi for the future benefit i believe i m getting something like kb sec transfer right now according to nu how would this number compare if i bought the state of the art scsi card for my isa pc and the state of the art scsi hard drive the wailing est system i could hope for obviously money factors into this choice as well as any other but what would you want to use on your isa system and how much would it cost along those lines what kind of transfer rate could i see with my ide hd s if i were to buy the top of the line ide caching controller for my mb ms hd and how much would it cost i actually have a pas and could what a waste i guess it would be hook up a scsi hd through it s scsi port which yields an optimum of kb sec actually i have a borrowed ms fujitsu hd hooked up through it now and own the trantor hd drivers for the pas scsi port is this scsi port a scsi port how could i tell is the fujitsu a a scsi are all scsi hd s scsi thanks for any comments on these rephrased questions randy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa bus scsi or ide wow you guys are really going wild on this ide vs scsi thing and i think it s great however i think that some people such as myself would benefit from answers to the simple question which would you choose and why like lots of people i d really like to increase my data transfer rate from the hard drive right now i have a ms mb ide drive seagate a and what i would say is a standard not special no cache i believe ide controller card on my isa i m currently thinking about adding another hd in the mb to mb range and i m thinking hard you should hear those gears a grinding in my head about buying a scsi drive scsi for the future benefit i believe i m getting something like kb sec transfer right now according to nu how would this number compare if i bought the state of the art scsi card for my isa pc and the state of the art scsi hard drive the wailing est system i could hope for obviously money factors into this choice as well as any other but what would you want to use on your isa system and how much would it cost along those lines what kind of transfer rate could i see with my ide hd s if i were to buy the top of the line ide caching controller for my mb ms hd and how much would it cost i actually have a pas and could what a waste i guess it would be hook up a scsi hd through it s scsi port which yields an optimum of kb sec actually i have a borrowed ms fujitsu hd hooked up through it now and own the trantor hd drivers for the pas scsi port is this scsi port a scsi port how could i tell is the fujitsu a a scsi are all scsi hd s scsi thanks for any comments randy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	request for input multispin cd rom drives i m looking into getting an external reasonably fast ms avg access time multispin cd rom drive that supports photo cd multi session has audio output and scsi interface for connection to the pas scsi port does anyone have any comments experiences warnings recommendations they d like to share concerning the texel dm and or toshiba txm e and or others thanks hal r brand brand s gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re comments video blaster creative labs in article wpsun uucp mikgr wpsun uucp michael grant writes in article apr ultb isc rit edu mej ritvax isc rit edu writes in bu edu heiser acs bu edu bill heiser writes in article c rdy fw chinet chi il us randy chinet chi il us randy suess w rites the video blaster doesn t work with the ati graphics ultra pro doesn t work with m system ram are you serious so i can t use a video blaster in my mb what are the alternatives other than removing memory get a better one hows about the win tv thing the wailer at the gates of dawn banshee cats ucsc edu just who are you calling a froofroo head od just a friend of the beast banshee ucscb ucsc edu banshee ucscb bitnet no good i perfer watchit tv it can run in dos and windows win tv only run in windows sorry still no good watchit tv will not work on a with local bus video it will not work in any high reolution modes either the people who make the card assure me that they will have a card available in june that supports both local bus and hi res btw does anyone know the name of the company who makes watchit tv phone bbs internet thanks michael grant mikgr wordperfect com or mikgr wpsun uunet uu net i have a promovie spectrum it seems to work very nicely with video for windows with my setup ms hd pas and orchid f va the board could handle up to frame s eric
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help installing second ide drive another possibility is that the mb one is already partitioned into two seperate drives c and d and the cmos asks for c drive and d drive setup info rather than drive and drive like most others i ve seen could this be confusing things so i need help the drive came bereft of any docs except for some info for the cmos setup the controller has a little piece of paper about the size of an index card i cannibalized the cable it s one of those with a connector at each end and the one in the middle so it looks like a serial connection now i be lost many many thanks in advance this is practically an emergency i have two papers to do on this thing for monday help william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net voice fax disclaimer i don t speak for suranet and they don t speak for me i ve been told by our local computer guru that you can t do this unless you perform a low level format on your existing hard drive and set your system up for two hard drives from the beginning i took him at his word and i have not tried to find out any more about it because i m not going to back everything up just to add another hdd if anyone knows for sure what the scoop is i would like to know also thanks in advance also bill willis if you bought your ide drive from a dealer you shouldn t have to perform a low level format even if the st hd is already partitioned into c and d fdisk will automatically assign the nd hd to d and change the nd partition of st drive to e check the jumper settings and cmos setup in particular the correct number of cylinders and tracks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re nutek faces apple s wrath article read in article davea davea xetron com david p alverson writes i believe apple has a patent on the region features of quickdraw a mac clone would have to implement regions this is why apple s comment was that they believe it is not possible to make a mac clone without infringing on their patents they may have other patents like this apple has patented their implementation of regions which presumably includes the internal data structure which has never been officially documented by apple apple cannot patent the concept of a region i m guessing that either nutek reverse engineered apple s internal data structure for regions i dunno if this would hold up in court or they came up with their own data structure if it s the latter then they won t be able to draw pict files containing regions besides pict files there aren t many places where regions are stored on disk quicktime movies perhaps as long as the region isn t being stored on disk and transferred from a mac to a nutek clone or vice versa it doesn t matter if nutek uses a completely different internal data structure i remember reading that apple also has a patent on their adb hardware and that the nutek clones would therefore be lacking an adb port what other patents does apple have on the mac joe schwartz e mail xor acm rpi edu or xor clotho acm rpi edu mapinfo corp broadway these are my own opinions any similarity to the troy ny opinions of mapinfo corporation is purely coincidental
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re your opinion of the laserwriter select my wife has one of these i have not had much chance to fiddle with it but in comparison to our laserwriters with canon engines she complains that the print is too light for her taste the difference is quite apparent even when the print setting on the select is adjusted to the darkest possible level i don t find it objectionable and indeed rather like it but be warned that some people don t care for it and it is considerably different i recall that years ago there were lots of debates over write black vs write white engines when dealing with tex drivers is something like that going on here
comp.sys.mac.hardware	floptical question hi i am looking into buying a floptical drive and was wondering what experience people have with the drives from iomega pli mass microsystems or procom these seem to be the main drives on the market any advice also i heard about some article in macworld sep i think about flopticals could someone post a summary if they have it thanks in advance reply by post or email whichever you prefer nizam nizam arain what makes the universe so hard to comprehend internet narain uiuc edu is that there is nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu to compare it with
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris cache bernoulli box in article apr physc byu edu goblec physc byu edu writes i just tried running my bernoulli box off a centris and the driver software only seems to work when the cache is off if it is on i get the message this is not a macintosh disk do you wish to initialize it i have iomega driver is there a newer version that works with the s is there something i am doing wrong clark goble goblec theory byu edu i have version which i believe was needed for a machine you should be able to get the newest version by calling their tech support at or if you have a modem you can get the driver from their bbs at dean dean clark internet dfclark ca sandia gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	please help find video hardware article crossposted from comp sys hp author was gordon lang posted on apr gmt article crossposted from comp sys ibm pc hardware author was gordon lang posted on apr gmt i need a device either an isa board or a subsystem which will take two rgb video signals and combine them according to a template the template can be as simple as a rectangular window with signal one being used for the interior and signal two for the exterior but i beleive fancier harware may also exist which i do not want to exclude from my search i know this sort of hardware exists for ntsc etc but i need it for rgb please email and or post any leads gordon lang glang smail srl ford com or glang holo srl ford com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ftp site for radius software hey all does anyone know if i can ftp to get the newest version of radiusware and soft pivot from radius i bought a pivot monitor but it has an old version of this software and won t work on my c and radius said it would be weeks until delivery thanks chuck
comp.sys.mac.hardware	your opinion of the laserwriter select this model is one of the two low cost laser printers that apple just introduced i m thinking of getting one to use at home have any of you had any experience with this printer does it have level postscript if you ve bought one are you happy with it john cavallino email jcav midway uchicago edu university of chicago hospitals john cavallino uchfm bsd uchicago edu office of facilities management usmail s maryland ave mc b f w c g k s e h p chicago il
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how do you like the apple color onescanner we re all set to buy one of these for the office to use for scanning in color photographs and for optical character recognition we ve played with the original grayscale onescanner and were very pleased is the color model comparable in quality also what brand of ocr software would you recommend we re leaning toward caere omnipage any better ideas thanks john cavallino email jcav midway uchicago edu university of chicago hospitals john cavallino uchfm bsd uchicago edu office of facilities management usmail s maryland ave mc b f w c g k s e h p chicago il
comp.sys.mac.hardware	file server mac i saw once an article about a new line of macs configured to work more optimally as file servers anyone know any more details
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re powerbook duo batteries in article c vr z eb usenet ucs indiana edu kssimon silver ucs indiana edu kenneth steven simon wrote hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes to my knowledge there is no way to fully discharge a duo battery the program powerstrip which is freeware has an option called quick discharge you can find it on the mac archives probably sumex aim stanford edu or mac archive umich edu good luck kenneth simon department of sociology kssimon indiana edu indiana university is it a hidden option i m using powerstrip by mr caputo right now and can t find any quick discharge option it definitely is on mac archive umich edu cause i submitted it ron wong the santa cruz operation net comm segment mgr encinal street po box fax devprogram marketing mgr santa cruz ca e mail uunet sco ronaldw ronaldw sco com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for sale macintosh se for sale apple macintosh se mb ram mb hd system installed rasterops bit video card for se apple monitor targus carrying case i m after offers in the region of pounds i m in the north london area contact mark allerton e mail pascal cix compulink co uk mark bilpin co uk phone evenings weekends office hours mark allerton srl data mark bilpin co uk pascal cix compulink co uk
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sound input in se a couple of questions for the multimedia set does anybody have a phone or fax number or e mail address or name of a principal in cedar technologies in dublin new hampshire all i have is a post office box number and i want to ask a couple of questions before sending them some money any info much appreciated i m running an se which came with no microphone is there any way other than using macrecorder with soundedit or cedar s digitizer with some similar software to input recorded sound into my mac i m trying to play some very short interview clips in a hypercard stack thanks for any and all help kathy mctaggart
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help install ram on centris i had asked everyone about problems installing a meg simm and an meg simm in my centris but the folks at the local apple store called the folks in cupertino and found that you can t have simms of different speeds in one machine even if they are both fast enough ie my ns meg and ns meg simms were incompatibable just thought people might want to know jason
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re q video ram questions in article apr cbnews cb att com jbr cbnews cb att com joseph a brownlee writes could someone post a definitive answer about the vram configuration for the q and presumably the c and c as well there seems to be a lot of confusion about this issue i d like to know what kind of simms are the vram simms i e pin etc there s only one physical size for vram simms unlike dram simms which come in many many sizes and pinouts although they do come with differing amounts of vram on them the ones you need are kb simms are organized as k x and have two k x vram chips on them this is the only size which the quadra and centris machines can use how many vram simm slots are there two what rules if any must be followed in filling the slots e g in pairs sizes must match etc both simm slots must be filled putting a simm in only one slot does nothing for you how fast must they be ns for the q and c ns for the c is there any other relevant information there are certain vram chip manufacturers whose parts are not compatible with the quadra and centris video hardware make sure that the source you get them from guarantees compatiblity in general if it works in a q it will work in a q please don t reply unless you have the correct information many thanks in advance for helping to eliminate some noise from this group trust me dale adams apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors on a related note will the work on a centris with internal video and give the multiple resolutions this i m very curious about thanks kevin tieskoetter technical support drake looniversity microfrontier inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	nutek email does nutek or anyone at nutek have an email address if not why not good things books by robert heinlein music by enya computers by apple humor by dave barry thursday nights on nbc and scotland scot salmon scot jlc mv com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors in article mar news media mit edu fredm media mit edu fred g martin writes part of posting removed the sony cpd has better video circuitry than either of the other two monitors it can display apple x vga x vga x though this has hz flicker and apple x hz refresh no flicker at all it might be able to display apple s x but i m not sure about this and the pixels would be real small anyway so it might not be that useful note that with either sony monitor you will need the proper adapter which both connects the video signals properly but also informs the macintosh video hardware of which display mode to use part of posting removed fred martin fredm media mit edu ames st rm e epistemology and learning group mit media lab cambridge ma usa i m assuming that the cabling tells the mac at startup what kind of monitor is connected now i think i ve seen ads in popular mac magazines for products i m not sure if it s just a monitor just a video card or a package of both that allow you to change resolutions on the fly w o restarting the mac if you were to buy a would it be possible to switch back and forth between apple x and apple x without restarting the mac is this strictly a hardware startup function or can software intervene or does the mac hardware occasionally probe the cable setting and switch automatically thanks eric ivancich eecs umich edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd rom multisession in article pgifo efb msuinfo cl msu edu gary ah cal msu edu writes as i said i know a multisession cd rom is necessary if you do more photos but what if it is just a writable cd rom drive and do a second session do you need one for that too if you write a second time to a cd you need to have multi session capability to read the second session whether it is photos or just data or whatever here is a simplified way of looking at it the first session has the directory structure burned at some tracks the second session has a newer directory structure but the first directory still exists because you cannot change only add so if you put that in a normal drive and it will only look to the first directory and think it has found all data multisession kindof means that the drive will look for the last directory written to the disc older systems look only for the directory not taking multiple directories into account lex van sonderen philips interactive media
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disappointed by la cie approximately four months ago i purchased a quantum lps hd from la cie for after two months the drive started having problems first there were intermittent freezes then corrupted files and resources then silverlining wouldn t even recognize the drive so i got an rma from la cie and exchanged the new drive for a reconditioned one well about a month has passed now and the second drive is having problems often when i boot up my iisi i get the flashing question mark sometimes if i then insert the silverlining program i can get it to recognize the drive by making it scan over and over for drives at that point i can restart the iisi and boot from the hd i ve called la cie again and they ve given me another rma their tech support people tell me that if silverlining doesn t see the drive there s a definite hardware problem given that this is the second bad drive in four months i asked la cie to send me a new one but they said no also within three weeks after i purchased my original drive la cie dropped the price on it by over i can accept that a drive or two may be bad and i know that hardware vendors make a practice of sending reconditioned replacements when they do repairs and i understand that the nature of the computer industry lends itself to sudden price fluctuations nevertheless taken together the convergence of these facts events have left a bad taste in my mouth i should have added above that when i asked la cie to transfer the contents of my current drive to the one they will send i think the data is still in good shape and i ll have to again reinstall everything from floppies they said it would cost me for data recovery it seems to me that reconditioned hardware should be sold as reconditioned at a discounted price and that replacements for new hardware gone bad still covered under a day warranty should be new i feel a little helpless about all this i don t mean to necessarily flame la cie their support staff have always been friendly and sometimes even helpful but c mon sometimes a little extra customer service goes a long way i sent a letter to la cie s customer service when the first drive was returned and i asked them for a credit on the price difference since i had purchased the drive three weeks before they slashed the price i told them i would like to apply the credit toward the purchase of another la cie product they didn t even have the courtesy to reply one way or the other what s the moral of this story i m not sure but i do know i won t buy any other products from la cie in the future bill krauthammer f ehg umiami ir miami edu ps please don t email or post about how good your la cie product and service has been i m not suggesting that they are not a good company or anything like that all i m saying is that i ve had a disappointing experience with them and i ll be taking my business elsewhere in the future
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wyse terminal emulator is there a wyse terminal emulator or a comms toolbox kit available on the net somewhere thanks vince
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re nutek faces apple s wrath article read in article mar leland stanford edu tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen writes there isn t any copyright equivalent of the res ipsa doctrine but there s something kind of similar to show infringement one element you need to show is that the defendant copied from your work if you re lucky you ll have direct evidence of copying the smoking gun normally you do this through circumstantial evidence by showing evidence of access from which one might reasonably infer copying this evidence of access is considered along with the similarities between the two works in deciding whether you copied however if the similarities are so strong as to be striking an inference of copying may be drawn even without any evidence that the defendant had access to your copyrighted work in that case the burden will be on the defendant to rebut the inference of copying for example evidence that he d been on a desert island for the last ten years and had no contact with civilization wow now we know why lawyers are rich and computer scientists are poor lawyers have to sound as if they understand this stuff
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra memory upgrade hi folks what exactly is the maximum memory i can put in a quadra my manual says mb with x mb simms but macwarehouse and the like advertise mb simms to give it a total of mb who s wrong has anybody got mb thanks chris chris reid cr cs strath ac uk
comp.sys.mac.hardware	built in video i have many questions for all you experts out there pertaining to apple s built in video do all macs that have built in video have the ability to use vga monitors if so if not which macs have this capability can they drive svga as well how big of a vga monitor can they drive how can you tell if an unlabeled monitor is vga by the pinouts if so what should it look like particularly i m interested in knowing if the si or ci drive vga as well as the lc s capabilities in driving vga svga thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii vs centris title says it all i d be particularly interested in the performance difference just how much faster is the centris over the lciii tom uucp humu nctams pnet tomj arpa humu nctams pnet tomj nosc mil inet tomj pnet cts com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	results of mathematica speed tests well here are the results of the mathematica test which i posted to this newsgroup the test was the following command plot d x y x y x y x y plotpoints i was just curious how fast the plot command would be executed on various macintosh machines as well as other personal computers and workstations the results are posted below machine system math vers of trials time min pb with tuneup mb ram mb for mathematica dec ultrix v a for dec risc iisi cache mb f enh mhz mb ram mb for math w c mb ram q mb cache mb for math sparc sunos station mb ram sgi iris d r risc processor version sparc sunos station iisi next nextstep cube based w coprocessor next nextstep ave cube mhz mb ram iisi mb mb for enha math w next mb ram mhz workspace manager funny how the iisi running at mhz is slower than other equivalent machines lots slower in fact perhaps the version of mathematica makes a difference or the fact that not much ram was allocated another interesting thing is how fast the sgi did it wow basically though i wouldn t draw any conclusions from this data it seems that mathematica s speed is dependant on a lot of variables i was just curious how different machines would measure up well if you have any questions or if i forgot something just drop me a line at cmmiller iastate edu chad ps if the spacing of the above table doesn t come out right on your machine tell me and i ll mail you a copy of this in a binhexed word document
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re caps lock vs control was re apple keyboard please excuse and redirect me if this has already been answered but is there a small utility that switches the functionality of the caps lock key and the ctrl key on the powerbook keyboard i use the ctrl key far more than caps lock so it would be more convenient and comfortable thank you for any help scott farrar
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac to laserjet iiip i have a friend who has a mac lc or lc ii i think and her family has an extra laserjet iiip sitting around is there any way to connect these two and make them work without a postscript cartridge she told me that a random friend of hers had mentioned something about some software package that could do the translation rick rick osterberg osterber husc harvard edu harvard yard mail center cambridge ma usa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help install ram on centris in article c s fy murdoch acc virginia edu jht e faraday clas virginia edu jason harvey titus writes i had asked everyone about problems installing a meg simm and an meg simm in my centris but the folks at the local apple store called the folks in cupertino and found that you can t have simms of different speeds in one machine even if they are both fast enough ie my ns meg and ns meg simms were incompatibable just thought people might want to know there s absolutely no reason why differences in the dram access time alone would cause an incompatibility there would have to be another difference between the simms for there to be a problem i ve often used memory of different speeds with no problems whatsoever as long as it s as fast or faster than the minimum requirement you should be fine just out of curiosity did you actually try this and see a problem or were you told it wouldn t work and so never tried it also out of curiosity do you know exactly who in cupertino you dealer talked to as i d like to find out what they re basing this recommendation on dale adams apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	laser writer iintx upgrade kit could someone please tell me what a laserwriter iintx upgrade kit is its a small box which has a bag inn it seemingly containing chips look like roms and a iintx manual the installation instructions are most informative and say in full this product must be installed by an apple so what does this do at first i thought it might be a nt to ntx upgrade but i thought that required an entirely new board any info appreciated doug
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for sale ethernet board bit supermac combo gene s stuff for sale new prices the following items are for sale qty description list price supermac colorlink sx t bit nubus base t this card is primo selling for mailorder it suports monitors up to in with x virtual desktop accelerated hardware pan etc this quick sale price includes free nd day air seagate st meg in hd mo old note all hardware is in normal working order prices do not include shipping all items shipped cod usa or pre paid anywhere sold iisi nubus adapter card with fpu for any items please contact gene naftulyev chairman staff tc umn edu or call
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re se serial port speed excerpts from cmu comp sys mac apr re se serial port speed by samuel john kass andrew sorry i got a bit technical to answer your question your mac se will have no problem whatsoever communicating with any modem that is bps or less and since modems that fast don t exist yet in a standardized form there s no need to worry actually a kbps modem using standard compression v v bis cna reach bps however i have not seen any server modems that have hardware compression i have been told the annex modems here break up at k but i have never seen faster than kbps a
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cheap video card for lc w fpu just wondering if anyone had info experience with a video fpu for a mac lc just thinking of adding a second monitor most likely grayscale bret oeltjen exp pi i university of minnesota electrical engineering
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii vs centris in article apr nctams uucp tomj pnet cts com tom jenkins writes title says it all i d be particularly interested in the performance difference just how much faster is the centris over the lciii tom uucp humu nctams pnet tomj arpa humu nctams pnet tomj nosc mil inet tomj pnet cts com when apple came with their demos to iowa state i got a chance to run speedometer on some of the new macs both machines were running system had a rgb don t know what the caches were set to neither machine had an fpu it appears that the centris is quite a bit faster than the lc iii centris lciii cpu graf disk math p r rating so there is a comparison there is definitely a very noticable speed difference between these two machines according to speedometer chad
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iintx upgrade in article pqprtinnf escargot xx rmit oz au s minyos xx rmit oz au douglas barry mcpherson writes could someone please tell me what a laserwriter iintx upgrade kit is its a small box which has a bag inn it seemingly containing chips look like roms and a iintx manual the installation instructions are most informative and say in full this product must be installed by an apple so what does this do at first i thought it might be a nt to ntx upgrade but i thought that required an entirely new board any info appreciated doug the kit is for an already existing laserwriter iintx it is a rom upgrade that replaces the font rasterizer code with the more efficient speedier code that first became available in adobe type manager that software came out after the original ntxes and the so called atm rasterizer is now standard on postscript printers mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re powerbook duo batteries ronaldw sco com ronald a wong writes in article c vr z eb usenet ucs indiana edu kssimon silver ucs indiana edu kenneth steven simon wrote the program powerstrip which is freeware has an option called quick discharge you can find it on the mac archives probably sumex aim stanford edu or mac archive umich edu is it a hidden option i m using powerstrip by mr caputo right now and can t find any quick discharge option it definitely is on mac archive umich edu cause i submitted it my apologies i goofed the quick discharge option is part of the connectix powerbook utilities package cpu i installed it the same day as powerstrip and didn t pay enough attention anyway the option does exist for those of you who buy cpu whadda goofball sheddap you re not even the real signature file kenneth simon dept of sociology indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adb and graphics tablet help help i have an adb graphicsd tablet which i want to connect to my quadra unfortunately the has only one adb port and it seems i would have to give up my mouse please can someone help me i want to use the tablet as well as the mouse and the keyboard of course thanks in advance tai hou tng singapore
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help install ram on centris excerpts from netnews comp sys mac misc apr re help install ram on cen by jason harvey titus farad from jht e faraday clas virginia edu jason harvey titus subject re help install ram on centris date mon apr gmt i had asked everyone about problems installing a meg simm and an meg simm in my centris but the folks at the local apple store called the folks in cupertino and found that you can t have simms of different speeds in one machine even if they are both fast enough ie my ns meg and ns meg simms were incompatibable just thought people might want to know jason oh boy am i confused i thought the entire point of the pin simms was that you could use diffrent size simms so you could avoid having to use sets all horror stories not withstanding a
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris cache bernoulli box you will need driver ver to work with quadra centris you can download it from iomega bbs dominic cheng d cheng descartes uwaterloo ca computer science university of waterloo ontario canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris impression i have been playing with my centris for almost a week now i must say this machine is really fast the hardware turn on feature is annoying but i got powerkey from sophisicated circuits and it works like a charm however i still have a few complaints when i restart the machine every time the screen image the desktop pattern jerks up and down for a few times the quantum drive is noisy overall i highly recommend it it is fast affordable and looks great dominic cheng d cheng descartes uwaterloo ca computer science university of waterloo ontario canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re wise to remove fan in classic in article hansg risken hansg risken vd volvo se hans granqvist writes is it wise to even think about removing the annoying fan from my classic i have no warranty to void and where do i get a screwdriver to fit in those funny screws hans granqvist volvo data corp gothenburg sweden my opinions only to every complex problem there exists an easy solution that s not correct the screws are torx screws and the tool isn t to hard to find it s a matter of finding one with a long enough shaft to do the trick no it is not a good idea to take that fan out why because it will cause stuff to over heat internal hard drives motherboard you name it and this can cause damage i ve known people to have hard drive failures because of fans that didn t work right dale leonard judy s stamps misc topical stamps from dogs dleonard wixer cactus org to cats to baseball and many many other subjects austin tx for stamp information call tony leonard at my number this is a business only number
comp.sys.mac.hardware	comparative scsi performance could someone direct me to information on scsi performance for each mac max throughput etc kurt tiedtke ktiedtke jarthur claremont edu please email thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re your opinion of the laserwriter select in a previous article jcav ellis uchicago edu johnc says this model is one of the two low cost laser printers that apple just introduced i m thinking of getting one to use at home have any of you had any experience with this printer does it have level postscript if you ve bought one are you happy with it john cavallino email jcav midway uchicago edu university of chicago hospitals john cavallino uchfm bsd uchicago edu office of facilities management usmail s maryland ave mc b f w c g k s e h p chicago il frankly i think this model is a screwup it does not have postscriptlevel only has fonts and does not even have fine print or photograde or grayshare even the model has this i am shocked by the kind of features you get for this printer i myself was hoping for some decent printer to replace the personal laser writers a motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography ca santa barbara and a foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind is the forerunner of all states
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re info on apple gc requested in article apr alijku edvz uni linz ac at norbert mueller k alijku edvz uni linz ac at writes newsgroups comp sys mac hardware in article prudhom iros serge prud homme prudhom iro umontreal ca writes any info on the video processor am that sit on it any way to program that chip what companie makes that chip apple was never able to provide any docs or tools to program that chip i value it as the least value per piece of computer hardware i ever bought due to the complete lack support tools there was a refund for us buyers of this card but we europeans were left out in the rain once again i agree completely but there was only a refund for people who bought the gc with a quadra i have seen an alpha version of an extension from apple called gc quicktime video which offloads quicktime compression decompression from the cpu to the am on the card so it seems it can be done even though in a developer article it states that the gc can t be programmed but they asked that any suggestions be sent in anyway steve margelis melbourne university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac os on a in article c bj e imag fr you write hillman hillman plk af mil wrote deathbird cmu edu donpaul c stephens kind of slated wouldn t you say who is going to throw all that to the side and get the mac os for not quite the point to be considdered here fact if when apple release system or what ever is current at the time of release then you will see shortly afterwards apple no longer producing hardware look at next with their nextstep to see what happens who is going to pay apples prices when they can get the same thing cheaper else where heck we can get a sun workstation cheaper than a quadra and infact we have a number of times it all comes down to if apple released this before windows was released i d be behind them they missed the boat so why is apple continued development will it support the p to its fullest capabilities run faster than windows it must do something significantly better than windows and os to warrent being released no the continued develeopment is because there is becomming less and less profit in hardware so the next step no pun intended well sort of is to make the money in software look at microsoft if you think it can t happen after all you can sell multiple pieces of software to one hardware platform as you also said windows is a nightmare for programmers so will the temptation to sell system to a couple of million dos users be too much for apple million copies is serious money sir office acme gen nz be thankfull that we dont get all the government we pay for
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re macplus freezes after hour use fails to boot in article osu inn r tamsun tamu edu mclean math tamu edu robert mclean wrote my macplus is having problems which seem temperature related after using it for a while it freezes the when i turn off then on the screen doesn t show the disk icon and then goes dark i consulted larry pina s book and could not find these symptoms has anybody else seen such symptoms suggestions shure it is temperature dependent but this does not clean all your problems based on some exp i must say that the connections between the power supply and the monitor and main board are usable to this failure ram simms can be badly connected due to some corrosion and the powersupply can be in the last phase lower voltage so you can do following if you are used to such technical terms clean all mentioned contacts with contact spray readjust the volt level of your powersupply use a calm fan and think of preventing dust blowin through the floppy a fixed piece of paper can prevent this if you don t know how to do it beg a friendly technician christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd i in article afi shs vohmrylee andrew cmu edu donpaul c stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote what is the difference i want a double spin cd rom drive by may looking into nec and apple doublespins only what is the best nec toshiba and sony apple nearly deliver the same speed as apples prices are very low compared to there ram simms you should buy what is inexpencive but think of driver revisions it is easier to get driver kits from apple than from every other manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what do y all think of the iivx in article p e tinnojp minerva cis yale edu bell peter yale edu peter bell writes my advisor has decided to get a mac for the lab now that we are funded again the consensus in the lab was that all we really needed was an lciii but he decided he wanted a centris the lack of an fpu on that machine and the price struck me as making it worth less than an lciii so i have suggested we get a iivx instead it seems heavily expandable and for what do people with iivx s think of them they seem like good machines to me and i like the nubus slots in case we ultimately decide we want to do work with video on it the iivx lciii performance at a centris price the only reason to get an iivx is if you really need the full size nubus slots keep in mind that the supports all apple monitors and has optional ethernet this lessens but doesn t eliminate the need for nubus cards and unless you re running fpu intensive software the will blow the doors off the lciii and the iivx the lciii on the other hand is sufficient for most people and has a great price if you haven t guessed i find halving the bus clock the iivx mhz up vs mhz bus a throughly bad thing and i hope apple never does it again joe finete jfinete cats ucsc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adapter cable for vga monitors does anyone know who makes a cable or adapter that is wired according to apple s specs that forces the external output on lc s and the powerbook s and duo into a true vga style output signal the nec adapter does not do this since their monitors are multisync they just route the signal into the correct pinout but do not switch the macs output into vga mode do i have to make one of these or does someone already have one made up the following is the apple spec for the lc cpu vga cable adapter i m assuming that the powerbooks duos will work with the same adapter macintosh lc to vga the macintosh lc can supply a x vga timed signal for use with vga monitors by using an adapter cable the standard macintosh lc supports vga to colors and with the optional k vram simm the vga monitor is supported to colors note the macintosh lc supplies signals capable of driving ttl level inputs however some low impedance input vga monitors do not work with the macintosh lc to connect a macintosh lc to a vga monitor you need to make an adapter cable from the macintosh lc video connector to the vga monitor following is the pinout description for the adapter cable macintosh lc vga video connector pin signal name red ground red video signal green video signal green ground blue video signal blue ground hsync vsync hsync ground nc sense sense tied together vga monitors are identified by shorting pin to pin on the macintosh lc video connector the macintosh lc grounds pin on its video connector which results in pulling down pin and gives the correct monitor id for a vga monitor this message was created on mcw bbs a jointly supported by new orleans mac user group national home school user group user maccomw uucp the views expressed in this posting those of the individual author only
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macintosh lisa dot matrix parallel printer i have got a dot matrix printer that came with a lisa i think i wish to attach it to a pc but have no manual i have been told that it is some sort of c itoh printer in disguise can anyone help with manuals or info about codes to send to select fonts italics etc i want to write a printer driver for protext thanks in advance stuart stuart munn dod heriot watt university the sky is black edinburgh therefore god he is a st mirren scotland eh as supporter fax god may have a harley e mail censwm uk ac hw clust janet but the pope rides a guzzi
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new duo dock info in article nazario stiles kstar node net yale edu nazario pop cis yale edu edgardo nazario writes the info i am about to give is not a rumour it s the truth the new macintosh coming in the second quarter will have a cpu of their own excuse me but have not all macs got a cpu alain
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re powerbook batteries in a previous article gil cc gatech edu gil neiger says i have a few questions about powerbook batteries specifically the nicad batteries i have for my pb can the powerbook run without any battery if the charger is plugged in no problems michel dozois gloucester ontario canada ab freenet carleton ca membre du club de cerf volant de l outaouais ovkc membre du national capital macintosh club ncmc membre du jungle bbs un babillard macintosh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra configurations i ve noticed some of you mentioning owning a quadra with cd and meg of vram it seems that this configuration was purchased complete that is the cd and vram were already installed in the box i am interested in that exact configuration and will be buying with an educational discount but have not found the cd bundled with any q smaller than the if you bought or know how to buy the with cd installed please let me know what you know via email send messages to dmaluso mhc mtholyoke edu thanks all diane maluso diane maluso internet dmaluso mhc mtholyoke edu department of psychology and education mount holyoke college south hadley ma
comp.sys.mac.hardware	memory in plus se i have to increase the memory in a plus or se i m not sure which since i haven t seen it yet i did this a few years ago but i no longer have the instructions i forget which resistor needs to be cut to go from to mbs can anyone direct me to this information is there an ftp able doc some where with diagrams thanks dick grant
comp.sys.mac.hardware	forsale radius precision color x video card i have a radius precision color x video card for the mac that fits in a nubus slot the card has mb of vram on it which means that bit color is possible on the card the card supports just about any monitor scan rate you can think of i used it at x x and x but it can go higher you can switch resolutions and depth on the fly with a software control panel this is the accelerated version of the card which means all quickdraw calls are not executed by the cpu but taken over by the video card freeing up the mac processor for other tasks the cheapest i could find this card for when i called around last night was at mac s place i will sell it for shipping it is just over a year old and never been any problem it comes with software and the original manuals hurry chris magnuson chrism col hp com hewlett packard company
comp.sys.mac.hardware	position of b on erg keyboard so far i have only seen pictures of the new ergonomic keyboard but it seems that the b is placed on the left part after the split however when i learned typing in school some years ago i was taught to write b with my right hand is this a difference between danish and american typing or what thanks a lot in advance thomas widmann lernu esperanton viralbus daimi aau dk solidvm petit in lingvis
comp.sys.mac.hardware	laserwriter pro memory upgrade i ve got the official word on the laserwriter pro memory upgrade i just got off of the phone with the quite friendly donna rossi at apple customer assistance she tells me that those who purchased the laserwriter pro in a megabyte dpi no greyscale configuration should contact their original dealers who are supposed provide the meg memory upgrade for those who don t know the extra meg will allow printing at dpi or greyscale at dpi if the dealers have questions they should be directed to their hardware support numbers and or apple customer assistance corporate number regards glenn p s personally i m annoyed at our school bookstore they really have an obligation to provide this information to all of the customers who purchased the in the original configuration they have the records that s why they ask for things like a phone number when i get my upgrade completed i m going to write apple and complain
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what do y all think of the iivx jfinete cats ucsc edu joseph manuel finete writes the iivx lciii performance at a centris price and unless you re running fpu intensive software the will blow the doors off the lciii and the iivx from the benchmarks i ve seen was that in macuser or macweek the fpu less centris is faster at floating point operations the kind of calculations that get routed to an fpu than a mac iifx and a mac iifx mhz fpu is the fastest based mac take note of course that benchmarks never tell the whole story get your favorite program s and run them on both machines at the store they should let you do that before you plunk down a hefty amount virtually philippe philippe casgrain etudiant chercheur casgrain ere umontreal ca departement des sciences biologiques universite de montreal define disclaimer caught caught i wasn t even there i didn t do it
comp.sys.mac.hardware	techworks what you say greetings i m planning to upgrade my mac iisi from the present megs to megs and add a math coprocessor technology works of austin texas comes quite highly recommended by some mac magazines i was just wonderring if anyone could share with me anything about tech works both good and bad experiences or give any advice about other mail order companies that i may consider your reply would be very much appreciated thanks in advance sincerely peter choo choo sigma ecs umass edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ethernet to localtalk on a quadra i have used both my serial ports with a modem and a serial printer so i cannot use appletalk is there a ethernet to localtalk hardware that will let me use the ethernet port on my q as a localtalk port until they come out with satellite dishes that sit on your window give you internet access from your home i won t at all be using that port saurabh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re dcc and minidisc next dat dds like story in article c cmd zz newcastle ac uk tor olav berntzen newcastle ac uk tor olav berntzen writes another thing why a scsi interface because scsi works well with removable media and works well with large capacity devices the floppy interface you suggest handles the former but it doesn t have any hooks for dealing with the latter you d have to kludge it plus it s extremely low performance and scsi has gobs of room for expansion compared with a floppy i can just see it let s stick a a a tape drive and a mo drive all on the floppy interface the possibilities for unexpected collisions are enormous peter da silva network management technologies incorporated u west airport blvd sugar land tx usa zure otsoa besarkatu al duzu gaur
comp.sys.mac.hardware	thanks apple free ethernet on my c well i just got my centris yesterday it took just over two weeks from placing the order the dealer rutgers computer store appologized because apple made a substitution on my order i ordered the one without ethernet but they substituted one with ethernet he wanted to know if that would be alright with me they must be backlogged on centri w out ethernet so they re just shipping them with anyway i m very happy with the with a few exceptions being nosy i decided to open it up before powering it on for the first time the scsi cable to the hard drive was only partially connected must have come loose in shipping no big deal but i would have been pissed if i tried to boot it and it wouldn t come up the hard drive also has an annoying high pitched whine i ve heard apple will exchange it if you complain so i might try to get it swapped i am also dissappionted by the lack of soft power on off this wasn t mentioned in any of the literature i saw also the location of the reset interupt buttons is awful having keyboard control for these functions was much more convenient oh and the screen seems tojump in a wierd way on power up i ve seen this mentioned by others so it must be a feature anyway above all it s fast a great machine at a great price gnelson physics rutgers edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new apple ergo mouse nwcs utkvx utk edu schizophrenia means never being alone writes does anyone know how to open up the apple ergo mouse adb mouse ii mine lives near a cat true really and picks up her fur from what i can tell it looks like apple welded it shut you must not have tried very hard i just opend mine in about seconds take a look on the bottom it has a dial that turns to open much like the older adb mouses used to have it s a bit harder to turn at first but it is quite simple to open also does anyone know about installing fpus in a mac lc iii i ve heard some people saying it has fried the motherboard of the lc iii well if you don t match up the pins correctly you will have some problems a close look at the socket should give you an idea of the proper orientation of the chip hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re file server mac pkr slacvm slac stanford edu patrick krejcik writes i saw once an article about a new line of macs configured to work more optimally as file servers anyone know any more details check out the may issue of macworld the new servers are on the cover should be at your favorite newstand hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re question x on quadra lecates bach udel edu roy lecates writes in article apr pcnntp apple com dale adams gateway qm apple com dale adams writes does anyone have information on acheiving x resolution on a q using interanl video is this even possible it s most certainly possible is it possible to use this resolution on the apple monitor if so i could probably rig a connector with the proper pins nope the apple monitor does not support multiple resolutions it is not a multi synching monitor hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re installing ram in a quadra truesdel ics uci edu scott truesdell writes this is an aside to brian hughes s please let s lose the cute phony names everybody posting about adding memory to a quadra what phony names my name is clearly visible in the headers and i sing the post with my account name if you have a problem with that then you will have to get over it i ve used this account name for over years and the people who have been reading newsgroups for the last generally recognize hades as my account name i have no intention of changing the way i post i installed a couple of mb simms in my quadra and was somewhat dismayed by the general complexity of the operation compared to for example the wonderfully designed lc iii it irritates me when apple refuses to tell how to do it in the user s manual so you have to guess at how to disassemble the devise in question it s the same for adding memory to laserwriter pro s it isn t apple s responsibility to tell its customers how to fool around with it s hardware that is what apple service techs get paid to do i personally like the design of the q and applaud apple for coming up with a good way to make use of the front space for all of those drive bays i like it a lot better than the design except for those people who need drive arrays i do however agree with you about the lw pro design the operation isn t very complicated if even a minimal amount of help were offered but apple leaves you working blind again its s not apple s place to make it easy for non certified service people to fool around with apple hardware even if they did buy it of course you are free to do what you want to your mac just don t get upset when your apple service rep tells you that your warranty is no longer valid after the memory was installed i was distraught that the top of the simms came into contact with the plastic case frame mine actually contacted the framework with quite a lot of pressure enough so that the assembly of the board back to the proper position was rather difficult and required some force i could have filed a little excess material off the top of the simm boards but chose to let it stand as is i have not had problems with ram yet so i will consider the problem annoying but not catastrophic this sounds like the kind of problem i had when i installed mb simms into an lc back before low profile mb simms were readily available the standard mb simms would contact the top of the case and make it a bit difficult to close the lc but it did close and work just fine one of the nice things about logic boards is that they are generally quite flexible and can withstand a fair amount of pressure hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sigma designs double up i am looking for any information about the sigma designs double up board all i can figure out is that it is a hardware compression board that works with autodoubler but i am not sure about this also how much would one cost joe jap po cwru edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new duo dock info aw camcon co uk alain waha writes nazario pop cis yale edu edgardo nazario writes the info i am about to give is not a rumour it s the truth the new macintosh coming in the second quarter will have a cpu of their own excuse me but have not all macs got a cpu alain alain get your facts straight before you post something like this the duo dock does not have a cpu of its own it is a docking station with ports connecting various components including the portable powerbook with its own cpu i guess these rumored new duo docks have a built in cpu to perform functions of their own interesting if they re not compatible with the current duo models i think you ll be hearing a lot more screwed by apple complaints imagine a company obsoleting ooh a new verb a virtually brand new computer sheesh ken kenneth simon dept of sociology indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re position of b on erg keyboard viralbus daimi aau dk thomas martin widmann writes so far i have only seen pictures of the new ergonomic keyboard but it seems that the b is placed on the left part after the split however when i learned typing in school some years ago i was taught to write b with my right hand is this a difference between danish and american typing or what it must be i type it with my left hand personally i would have a real problem with my keyboard opened up like that because i tend to share some keys with both hands particularly if i m doing something else with one hand like using the cursor keys mouse or glass of jolt deej jacob rose amazing but true there is so much sand in northern jaker csugrad cs vt edu africa that if spread out it would cover the sahara
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd i in article bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de christian bauer writes in article afi shs vohmrylee andrew cmu edu donpaul c stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote what is the difference i want a double spin cd rom drive by may looking into nec and apple doublespins only what is the best nec toshiba and sony apple nearly deliver the same speed as apples prices are very low compared to there ram simms you should buy what is inexpencive but think of driver revisions it is easier to get driver kits from apple than from every other manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de i thought nec and toshiba cd rom mechanism have an average access time of less than ms while the sony apple cd rom drive has an access time of ms for the doublespin models chung yang
comp.sys.mac.hardware	using mb disks with mac ii do you need to get a rom upgrade to use a mb floppy drive with a mac ii or are there rd party drives which work with the mac ii s own roms thanks ralph ralph gonzalez computer science rutgers univ camden nj phone internet rgonzal gandalf rutgers edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re whats this thermal recalibration on quantum drives in article mar midway uchicago edu gary midway uchicago edu writes whether the drive is hooked up to the computer or not the lps makes a disk seek noise every seconds this is consistent and will continue as lomg as the drive is powered up even if i disconnect the drive from the computer this drive activity continues at second intervals someone tried to tell me the drive was doing a thermal recalibration not knowing beans about the internal physical workings of the lastest disk drive technology i guess i might believe anything whats the scoop on this standalone drive activity every sec i can only comment on thermal recalibration in general some new drives perform it in order to increase overall integrity of data writes basically the firmware instructs the actuator to perform a test to see if the data tracks are within a certain physical tolerance since when the media heats up or cools down some track drift is inevitable and the drive has to monitor it this becomes especially critical at very high recording densities and so was used primarily on very large capacity mechanisms but it seems to be finding its way into more smaller drives as a way of boosting the drive s long term reliability and mtbf ratings i first became aware of thermal recalibration when it was pointed out that the technique conflicts with prolonged write times when digitizing say audio or video to hard disk some manufacturers explicitly state that drives with thermal recalibration are not to be used for applications that have prolonged disk writes hope this helps victor
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ext hard drives for my se i m interested in getting an external hard drive for my se i ve got an internal mb that s pretty full even with compression s w alot of people talk about mb what s a good ratio i m thinking of adding either an or a or what brands would people suggest finally places to buy from are more popular mail order places better to order from or the places that just sell hard drives e g ones that advertise in the back of macworld and macuser thanks in advance if e mail replies are sent i ll compile them and post them drew drew j asson space telescope science institute ai senior software engineer san martin drive advance planning systems branch baltimore md usa internet asson stsci edu fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	price drop on c within months i am going to be getting a c soon but i don t want apple to come out with the cyclones and the tempest in a month and have the price drop on the system i want i have negotiated a good deal with a supplier for a c and i would like to jump on it but again i don t want the price drop to smuther me btw the deal i have is a c with mouse for does anyone know of a better deal thanks nate ns longs lance colostate edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re thanks apple free ethernet on my c in article apr pion rutgers edu gregory nelson gnelson pion rutgers edu writes oh and the screen seems tojump in a wierd way on power up i ve seen this mentioned by others so it must be a feature anyway above all it s fast a great machine at a great price well i saw a few posts on this and asumed that everyone is talking about the new display mine does it to kinda like when i would degauss my old and since the new one lacks this button i assume that is what it is doing anyone that knows i d appreciate the info but it doesn t worry me t
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re techworks what you say well although this may be an uncommon occurrence or not i had a bad experience with techworks this past summer i upgraded increased the memory in a powerbook and a ci when i called to place the order for the pb ram i was told by the sales person that they would give me a rebate if i would return the original ram which was also techworks ram i followed the instructions for returning the old ram expecting to see a credit on my visa within a few weeks well months went by and no credit after many calls almost none of which were ever returned arghhh i finally found someone who told me why we never received your old chips i then explained i the procedure that i had followed to return them to which the person replied you mean you sent them us mail which i had per the original sales person s instructions i was told that they their loss of us mail shipments is not uncommon come on and that i should have sent the stuff via fedex etc i reasoned that i had done exactly what i had been told to but they would not budge the people i spoke with were absolutely no help i sent letters copies of the original receipts attempted to trace the package through the us mail made many more phone calls to techworks all to no avail i wouldn t give up because i was so disgusted sales support people supervisors there was nothing i could do to pursuade them to make it right i finally in total disgust wrote a letter to my credit card company asking them to investigate the problem three weeks later the credit miraculously appeared on my statement i have not in recent memory been so disgusted with the service that i received from a company in all fairness they had no way of knowing that was not trying to rip them off but i went to such great lengths to prove to them that this really happened oh well c est la vie i will never buy another product from them again there had to get that off my chest
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cyclone and tempest could someone please post any info on these systems thanks bob robert novitskey pursuing women is similar to banging one s head rrn po cwru edu against a wall with less opportunity for reward
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii midi does anyone have any experience using lciii with midi do they get along ok i have heard that the iivx is not suitable for midi but i have not heard anyon e say anything definitive about lciii and midi if you have had experience wh at midi interface have you used anyone used finale software in this setting please e mail i will summarize thanks jerry bartlett peoria illinios u uicvm cc uic edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re sigma designs double up jap po cwru edu joseph a pellettiere writes i am looking for any information about the sigma designs double up board all i can figure out is that it is a hardware compression board that works with autodoubler but i am not sure about this also how much would one cost i ve had the board for over a year and it does work with diskdoubler but not with autodoubler due to a licensing problem with stac technologies the owners of the board s compression technology i m writing this from memory i ve lost the reference please correct me if i m wrong using the board i ve had problems with file icons being lost but it s hard to say whether it s the board s fault or something else however if i decompress the troubled file and recompress it without the board the icon usually reappears because of the above mentioned licensing problem the freeware expansion utility dd expand will not decompress a board compressed file unless you have the board installed since stac has its own product now it seems unlikely that the holes in autodoubler diskdoubler related to the board will be fixed which is sad and makes me very reluctant to buy stac s product since they re being so stinky but hey that s competition stan kerr computing communications services office u of illinois urbana phone email stankerr uiuc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re price drop on c within months in article apr yuma acns colostate edu ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes i am going to be getting a c soon but i don t want apple to come out with the cyclones and the tempest in a month and have the price drop on the system i want i have negotiated a good deal with a supplier for a c and i would like to jump on it but again i don t want the price drop to smuther me btw the deal i have is a c with mouse for does anyone know of a better deal thanks is that the low end configuration if it is it has the lc no fpu as opposed to all the other configurations with a rc has an fpu be sure you know what you are getting before you buy the rc is around right now if you intend to upgrade it from a lc sunny
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii to vga monitor adapters i m having a real tough time finding out the proper adapters to use a vga monitor an ibm sold w many ps s to be exact on the mac lc iii all of the vendors i have called say that the internal video will not work on a true vga monitor but will work on a ibm compatible multisync like the sony s or the nec monitors i thought the vga capability of lciii was very attractive because it allowed you to use inexpensive vga monitors am i confused or are these vendors just not up to speed has anyone used an lciii with a non multisync vga monitor and if so where did you get your adapter please be specific w vendor and cat i would prefer to get a apple monitor for these lciii s it s unseemly to see the finder inside an ibm bezel but the more money we save on monitors the more lciii s we can afford and the more ps s we can get rid of charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group qman casbah acns nwu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re warning don t break powerbook screen in article d ub c outpost sf bay org peirce outpost sf bay org michael peirce writes surprised shouldn t be protective tarriffs almost always end up hurting the u s in the long run same with subsidies they way to build a strong economy isn t to wall it off from the tough outside world but rather to compete in the global market place and don t come crying when the world doesn t always want to play by our house rules tell that to the japanese their local market is neatly protected by the japanese government its one very tough nut to crack in fact the only current way to break into it is to do it with a japanese company as a partner in the venture gary gary snow uunet clark gsnow or gsnow clark edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need advice about tech works etc greetings i planning to upgrade my mac iisi from the present megs to megs and add a math coprocessor technology works of austin texas comes quite highly recommended by some mac magazines i was just wonderring if anyone could share with me anything about tech works both good and bad experiences or give any advice about other mail order companies that i may consider your reply would be very much appreciated thanks in advance sincerely peter choo choo sigma ecs umass edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo dock problems has anyone had any problems with their duo dock not ejecting the duo properly when i first got it the duo would come out of the dock a couple of inches when ejected and i had to pull it the rest of the way nowadays and i ve had the system for months the duo doesn t come out at all despite the fact that the mechanism makes all the appropriate noises and i have to grab hold of it and pull it out myself is there a simple fix for this or do i have to return it to my apple dealer where it will languish for weeks while i have to make do with no colour display no vram no floppy or scsi etc btw it s not that the duo is locked into the dock it just doesn t want to slide out any more phil jimmieson computer science dept janet phil uk ac liv csc liverpool university internet phil csc liv ac uk po box liverpool l bx i was head over heels in love until i got cramp uk
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help internal hds in mac ii in article apr siemens co at kurt netzer kurt siemens co at writes is it possible to install a nd mb hd in a mac ii with a mb qunatum hd can i us a pin cable with connectors for the internal motherboard scsi connector and the scsi hd connectors the first hd is nt terminated the second will be whats about the power supply where can i connect a amp connector to supply my hd it is very possible to connect another internal hard disk in any macintosh if you can find the space to put it i have a iisi that came with a quantum meg drive when i ran into space problems i slapped in another meg quantum that i had sitting on a shelf here is what i did first off i was concerned about space since both drives are quantum quarter height drives i finally decided that the logical place for them was stacked one upon the other fine they fit snugly i have not had a problem with heat yet and these drives have been running together for over two months the next problem was connecting the drive if you have a spare internal hard disk power cable as i did then half of your troubles are over just splice in the extra cable so that you get one square motherboard connector and two hard disk power connectors if you don t have a spare cable you will have to buy the wires and connectors which can be found in any good electronics store for about i would suggest properly soldering heatshrinking the connections to reduce the possibility of shorts or bad connections next you need a ribbon cable connection again i had a spare hard disk ribbon cable and i wanted to be careful in case this didn t word so what i did was purchase a crimp on pin cable connector that gave me another male connector in the middle of my spare cable the part cost again and is easily attached with any good wood vice the theory behind using a crimp on connector is that if this doesn t work my original cable is not damaged and i can go back to the original setup having done all that i couldn t be bothered to check the dev notes for power consumption so i plugged it in and it works like a charm to this day in a mac ii everything should work the same be careful with the id s of the drive and ensure that the terminating resistors on both drives are intact i did not try this without the terminating resistors but it seemed logical that if i am splitting the scsi chain that the signal should be terminated at all the ends let me know if you have any more questions peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help internal hds in mac ii in article apr siemens co at kurt netzer kurt siemens co at writes is it possible to install a nd mb hd in a mac ii with a mb qunatum hd can i us a pin cable with connectors for the internal motherboard scsi connector and the scsi hd connectors the first hd is nt terminated the second will be whats about the power supply where can i connect a amp connector to supply my hd it is very possible to connect another internal hard disk in any macintosh if you can find the space to put it i have a iisi that came with a quantum meg drive when i ran into space problems i slapped in another meg quantum that i had sitting on a shelf here is what i did first off i was concerned about space since both drives are quantum quarter height drives i finally decided that the logical place for them was stacked one upon the other fine they fit snugly i have not had a problem with heat yet and these drives have been running together for over two months the next problem was connecting the drive if you have a spare internal hard disk power cable as i did then half of your troubles are over just splice in the extra cable so that you get one square motherboard connector and two hard disk power connectors if you don t have a spare cable you will have to buy the wires and connectors which can be found in any good electronics store for about i would suggest properly soldering heatshrinking the connections to reduce the possibility of shorts or bad connections next you need a ribbon cable connection again i had a spare hard disk ribbon cable and i wanted to be careful in case this didn t word so what i did was purchase a crimp on pin cable connector that gave me another male connector in the middle of my spare cable the part cost again and is easily attached with any good wood vice the theory behind using a crimp on connector is that if this doesn t work my original cable is not damaged and i can go back to the original setup having done all that i couldn t be bothered to check the dev notes for power consumption so i plugged it in and it works like a charm to this day in a mac ii everything should work the same be careful with the id s of the drive and ensure that the terminating resistors on both drives are intact i did not try this without the terminating resistors but it seemed logical that if i am splitting the scsi chain that the signal should be terminated at all the ends let me know if you have any more questions peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quantum q hard disk i recently aquired a quantum q harddisk it is a meg mechanism it is scsi i have a few questions and a few problems first there seems to be an extra connector socket on the back that i can t figure out what it is for the address is set by some jumpers on the bottom so i don t think it is for that any ideas second it would be nice to get a hardware manual for the drive there are a lot of jumpers on it that we don t know what they are for third i have got the drive to format it took a while to get things to work and most of it is fine for now the formating initialy was troublesome but seems to be ok the main problem is if you do a reset on the macplus the drive disappears if i shut the mac off and then back on agian then the drive comes up fine any ideas please reply to one of the email addresses below thanks richard crispin department of psychology email rcrispin watarts uwaterloo ca university of waterloo psych watserv uwaterloo ca waterloo ontario phone or ext canada n l g fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help powerbook and caere typist plus graphics hand scanner edited and forwarded by the csm announce moderator please respond to the originator by email also what he needs besides a cable that works is a phone number and applelink address for caere and a smile and a pat on the back please i beg you if you know anything about the caere typist plus graphics hand scanner please read and solve my problem i will be truely grateful for the rest of my life the problem is that my caere typist plus graphics hand scanner will not connect to my powerbook the cable on the scanner will not fit into the scsi port on the powerbook i then got a cable assembled to adapt the original cable to fit the scsi port this however turned the computer into scsi mode and treated it as a hard disk i have asked an engineer in london to assembled a new cable the idiot out of sheer laziness has taken weeks and has yet to solve the problem i am aware that caere co in the us have a solution do you know of a cable that will solve this problem please help me if you know the solution i will be forever grateful to you my e mail address is zia uk ac ed castle wrong side of the road syndrom for us that s zia castle ed ac uk thanking you in advance zia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re disappointed by la cie in article apr umiami ir miami edu f ehg umiami ir miami edu writes it seems to me that reconditioned hardware should be sold as reconditioned at a discounted price and that replacements for new hardware gone bad still covered under a day warranty should be new well sounds like we need some kind of a lemon law on the hardware industry after all it does sound unfair to me for someone that has paid the price of a new drive for a reconditioned one what do you guys think
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re the c fan is noisy any solutions in article summeral rintintin colorado edu summeral rintintin colorado edu summerall thomas g writes is it me my or all s it doesn t seem to broken it isn t making grinding noises or anything it s just loud much louder that the fan in the iici i just sold anybody else have this problem how about a solution is there a good replacement fan that s a lot quieter but moves the same air any easy way to insulate the sound but not the cooling air hah i can t even hear the fan on my gee i wonder if its working yup just checked its exhausting air out the back just fine gary gary snow uunet clark gsnow or gsnow clark edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re price drop on c within months nathaniel sammons writes i am going to be getting a c soon but i don t want apple to come out with the cyclones and the tempest in a month and have the price drop on the system i want i have negotiated a good deal with a supplier for a c and i would like to jump on it but again i don t want the price drop to smuther me btw the deal i have is a c with mouse for does anyone know of a better deal i don t know how to say it best but you are gaurenteed that the price of the c is going to drop this year this week s macweek reports that apple is probably planning a drop in august my guess is that it may come sooner if apple decides to change the price structure upon release of the multimedia units this summer your price looks pretty good at about more then i payed for mine last month i would have rather waited for one of the new machines this sommer like the cyclone but the resale value of my iici would have not been squat by then thus financing forced me to purchase now i m happy with the machine and won t feel betrayed at all when apple cuts the price to less then next week heh bottome line if the c does what you want buy it if you wait until the cylcones come out for a price break then you might as well wait for the powerpcs to come out for another price break and then the units which follow them you may save some money but you ve lost a lot of time when you could have been using the computer face it apple s prices are going to be in a continuous state of flux at least they aren t going to try raising them again grin john komp leonardo src honeywell com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re comparative scsi performance kurt tiedtke ktiedtke jarthur claremont edu wrote could someone direct me to information on scsi performance for each mac max throughput etc max thruput on a centris or quadra is about mb sec max thruput on iici or iifx or equivalent is about mb sec max thruput on slower machines is slower peter a cohen no i don t reflect my employer s opinions peterco eff org heck my employer doesn t even know i m here
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple tape backup sc under system x i need to get an apple sc tape backup unit working under sys x but do not have any drivers software to access the device does anyone know where i can fidn the tools to access this device appreciate any info comments curtis curtis c generous generous sti nasa gov nasa sti code jtt washington dc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	axion serial port switcher good or bad hi i m looking into buying a serial port switcher because while my mac has two serial ports i have appletalk a modem a printer midi and a sound digitizer unfortunately specifically i m looking at the axion electronic switcher because it seems to be fairly cheap about at maczone does anyone know anything about it i ve heard that with most of these things you can still only use serial ports at a time it just prevents you from physically swapping cables although i ve also heard that programs that use the comm toolbox may be able to use as many serial ports as they want does anyone know if this is true with the axion switchbox finally if the axion stinks or if you re using something else that you think is good i d be interested in hearing about other products i would like to spend under if possible please reply through mail i m not a regular reader of this newsgroup if there s interest i can post a summary of replies thanks a lot m scott smith umsmith mcs drexel edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pleeze help me buy a mac hey everybody i want to buy a mac and i want to get a good price who doesn t so could anyone out there who has found a really good deal on a centris send me the price i don t want to know where unless it is mail order or areound cleveland ohio also should i buy now or wait for the power pc thanks bob reply via post or e mail at rrn po cwru edu robert novitskey pursuing women is similar to banging one s head rrn po cwru edu against a wall with less opportunity for reward
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iisi at mhz success story howdy folks back in september or october i posted instructions on how to upgrade the iisi to mhz by doin a little solderin people bolder than me have reported that they ve done the same procedure but put in a mhz oscillator instead of thus running the cpu at mhz instead of so i tried it and i ll be darned if it doesn t work has anyone tried or does anyone know if this procedure will work on an se mine s old slow and in need of either death or power kelley thomas kelley boylan powerpc ibm austin kelleyb austin ibm com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re adb woes in article apr afterlife ncsc mil mlbelan afterlife ncsc mil mark belangee writes greetings oh wise netters oops that s the oracle sorry anyhow i have a basic question that i cannot answer just where in the heck can i buy a adb cable mine on my trackball is shot and i haven t been able to find a replacement anywhere unless i m looking in the wrong mail order catalogs anyone have any ideas places prices just make it myself mark mlbelan afterlife ncsc mil you should be able to pick up an adb cable at any computer wiring store i d give you the address of alberta computer cable in calgary but a i m in victoria b c canada and b i don t think an address in calgary would help you too much basically however i just phoned them up and they charged me approx cnd for a custom made adb extension cable for my mouse hope this helps dave maclachlan dmaclach ra uvic ca nightfall software inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd i in article ps d innrc srvr engin umich edu chyang leghorn engin umich edu chung hsiung yang writes in article bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de christian bauer writes in article afi shs vohmrylee andrew cmu edu donpaul c stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote what is the difference i want a double spin cd rom drive by may looking into nec and apple doublespins only what is the best nec toshiba and sony apple nearly deliver the same speed as apples prices are very low compared to there ram simms you should buy what is inexpencive but think of driver revisions it is easier to get driver kits from apple than from every other manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de i thought nec and toshiba cd rom mechanism have an average access time of less than ms while the sony apple cd rom drive has an access time of ms for the doublespin models chung yang i have the a cd technology drive with the toshiba mechanism and it is supposedly the fast and best now it has an access of ms and a data transfer rate kb sec it is multisession photo cd compatible it is available from educorp for the cd technology one and comes with two mail in coupons for two free cds i m not sure if the cd s are good since i ve only had the drive a little less than a month and had the cd s shipped to my home address in california instead of here in maryland the cd technology drive has a separate power supply separated from the drive which supposedly gives it a longer life and keeps it cleaner with no fan to attract dust a toshiba brand drive is also available but i think the cd technology is better since you get the same mechanism and at a slightly lower price with two free cds the apple i drive sony mechanism is around a ms access time i think and a data transfer rate of kb sec i know it is the slowest of the three mentioned here it is not widely available except through the apple catalog which is bad at a price of only it is also multi session photo cd compatible i think the external model comes with free cds some of which are pretty good the nec drive has been out the longest it has an access time of ms and a data transfer rate of kb sec it is available from many vendors around dollars including educorp it wasn t multi sesssion photo cd compatible before but i hear that the current version that is shipping is owners of the older drives can get an upgrade it does not come with any free cd s unless you buy it in a bundle of the three cd rom drives above i think the best choices would be the apple drive and the cd technology toshiba drive the apple drive for it s compatibility with apple products and the cd technology toshiba for it s speed and performance btw the models of the drives are apple applecd or applecd i internal cd technology cd t the toshiba brand name model i m not sure but it is also something like with nec cdr i m very happy with my drive and have had no compatibility problems whatsoever if i am wrong about any of the above do correct me but i am pretty sure of myself even when i think i m not also some of you out there might notice that i have the same last name as the president of cd technology which happens to be in southern california my hometown however i am not a relative nor do i know the guy liu is just a common chinese name especially in southern california with the enormous chinese community besides one of my doctors in california has three steve liu s as patients and another steve liu comes to my school and lives in the next dorm this is to show that liu is very common steve steve liu i wish for a better sig drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu suggestions are very welcome drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re apple tape backup sc under system x in article generous nova generous nova sti nasa gov curtis generous writes i need to get an apple sc tape backup unit working under sys x but do not have any drivers software to access the device does anyone know where i can fidn the tools to access this device appreciate any info comments curtis curtis c generous generous sti nasa gov nasa sti code jtt washington dc retrospect dantz works nicely with this combination you can buy it from the mail order vendors
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help please hand scanner problem if you know anything about the caere typist plus graphics hand scanner please read on and save my life my problem is that my caere typist plus graphics hand scanner will not connect to my powerbook the cable from the scanner will not fit the scsi port of the computer i managed to gaet a cabled assembled that adapted the cord to the computer however this placed the computer into scsi mode that is it acted as an external hard disk whenever i switched the computer on i ve asked an engineer in london to assemble a new cable for me but he s taken weeks and has yet to find the solution out of sheer laziness and i know that a cable exists to solve the problem if you know the solution please let me know what cable i need and how i can get hold of one my e mail address is zia uk ac ed castle i will be truely grateful for all your help thanking you in advance zia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cannot move data fast enough i want to achieve an overall throughput rate of around megabytes sec for very large data transfers around mb i have a quadra i have a nubus network card that can pump data in to mac memory at mb s using block mode transfers i have a high speed disk array no asynchronous pb calls that can achieve mb s let s say all transfers go from disk to buffer to network card it is not enough to first transfer all the data from the disk to buffer then transfer all the data from the buffer to card mb s then mb s result in an overall mb s too slow so i tried the following scheme for an n megabyte transfer step load the st mb from disk to buffer step asynch send st mb out card load the nd mb from disk to buffer step asynch send nd mb out card load the rd mb from disk to buffer step n asynch send the n mb out card load the nth mb from disk to buffer step n send the nth mb out card even though the code apparently does execute the card transfer asynchronously and the card does not use the mac cpu at all it is using the buffer tho each of the steps through n take as long as if the two transfers were executed one after another so there is no improvement in the rate why is the mac ram dual port so the nubus card and the disk driver can both access data at the same time is the problem that the two devices card and disk driver both have to use the same bus to mac ram is there anything i can do david david blume i get tired thinking of all the things i dcb wdl wdl loral com don t want to do bukowski barfly
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new duo dock with processor here s why well folks after some thought the answer struck me flat in the face why would apple release a duo dock with a processor of its own here s why people have hounded apple for a notebook with a processor in it apple can t deliver that right now because the saps too much power radiates far too much heat and is too large for a notebook how does one get around that without designing a new chipset use existing powerbook technology to your best advantage the duo dock gives apple a unique ability to give users that power in a semi portable fashion by plunking the into the dock you ve got quadra power at your desk on the road that mhz should be able to handle most of your needs okay not the best solution but its an answer to a no win situation so does this mean one will be able to use the powerbook s processor in parallel to the dock s processor okay we re getting really hypothetical now travis grundke macgames digest your source for information contributing editor news reviews of gaming software and the gaming macgames digest industry in the macintosh community reply an cleveland freenet edu for more information on macgames digest
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook questions why or how actually can a powerbook have a x pixel display regardless if it is a or and still keep the dpi resolution i assume that it doesn t and i don t mean to imply they all have these dimensions any info on price drops or new models non duo coming up thanks jt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re question x on quadra in article d u nu bostrauma trauma com ennui trauma com n is for neville who died of ennui writes does anyone have information on acheiving x resolution on a q using interanl video is this even possible i suspect that it isn t although i d certainly like to know for sure of course its possible i get x on my centris all you need is a correctly wired video cable gary gary snow uunet clark gsnow or gsnow clark edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new apple ergo mouse in apr utkvx utk edu nwcs utkvx utk edu schizophrenia means never being alone writes does anyone know how to open up the apple ergo mouse adb mouse ii mine lives near a cat true really and picks up her fur from what i can tell it looks like apple welded it shut by rotating the plate around the mouse ball counter clockwise you can open the mouse and clean it it isn t as obvious as the desktop bus mouse i but it opens quite easily once you see what has to be done geoff geoffb dartmouth edu computing support consultant tuck school of business if you don t vote you don t count
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cheapest mike for centris in article summeral rintintin colorado edu summeral rintintin colorado edu summerall thomas g writes i just bought a centris and discovered to my dispointment that apple has gotten too cheap to include a mike anymore internal or external you get a mic with the c if you get it with the internal cd rom drive gary gary snow uunet clark gsnow or gsnow clark edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new duo dock with processor here s why an cleveland freenet edu travis grundke writes why would apple release a duo dock with a processor of its own here s why people have hounded apple for a notebook with a processor in it apple can t deliver that right now because the saps too much power radiates far too much heat and is too large for a notebook how does one get around that without designing a new chipset use existing powerbook technology to your best advantage the duo dock gives apple a unique ability to give users that power in a semi portable fashion by plunking the into the dock you ve got quadra power at your desk on the road that mhz should be able to handle most of your needs okay not the best solution but its an answer to a no win situation so does this mean one will be able to use the powerbook s processor in parallel to the dock s processor okay we re getting really hypothetical now it would also be great for another reason when not docked it could serve as an ara server to the large internal hd your corporate email etc in a pinch you would also have two machines instead of if they could couple that thought with rocketshare and let you use both the on the pb and the on the dock it would be a mighty powerful dock brian hall mspace netcom com mark space softworks applelink markspace america online markspace do not disturb i m on a mission from egghead
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re apple tape backup sc under system x in article pskkt ln fnnews fnal gov b fnclub fnal gov david sachs writes in article generous nova generous nova sti nasa gov curtis generous writes i need to get an apple sc tape backup unit working under sys x but do not have any drivers software to access the device retrospect dantz works nicely with this combination i also use retrospect but i noticed that central point software s mactools backup also supports the apple tape drive under x the apple tape drive is quite slow so the advantages of retrospect relative to the simpler mactools backup are less significant than might be the case for someone backing up a large server to a dat drive used apple tape drives are going for so it might make less economic sense to pay an extra for retrospect when mactools is cheaper and includes other worthwhile utilities retrospect is nice though and i m probably going to upgrade to bill johnston johnston me udel edu chambers street newark de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo dock problems in c ge ks compsci liverpool ac uk phil csc liv ac uk phil jimmieson writes has anyone had any problems with their duo dock not ejecting the duo properly when i first got it the duo would come out of the dock a couple of inches when ejected and i had to pull it the rest of the way nowadays and i ve had the system for months the duo doesn t come out at all despite the fact that the mechanism makes all the appropriate noises and i have to grab hold of it and pull it out myself is there a simple fix for this or do i have to return it to my apple dealer where it will languish for weeks while i have to make do with no colour display no vram no floppy or scsi etc btw it s not that the duo is locked into the dock it just doesn t want to slide out any more phil jimmieson computer science dept janet phil uk ac liv csc liverpool university internet phil csc liv ac uk po box liverpool l bx i was head over heels in love until i got cramp uk also has anyone heard any rumors that the new docks the ones with the cpu will be better designed that this first batch i love my duo but installing cards in the dock is not much fun bob bob lord south wacker room network manager chicago il cstar group andersen consulting lord andersen com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re internal scsi installation how but apple hd sc says unable to locate a suitable drive on scsi what s he doing wrong apples hdsc will only format a hard drive that apple sold you need to use a third party formater like drive or spoton
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd i in article ps d innrc srvr engin umich edu chyang leghorn engin umich edu chung hsiung yang writes in article bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de christian bauer writes in article afi shs vohmrylee andrew cmu edu donpaul c stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote what is the difference i want a double spin cd rom drive by may looking into nec and apple doublespins only what is the best nec toshiba and sony apple nearly deliver the same speed as apples prices are very low compared to there ram simms you should buy what is inexpencive but think of driver revisions it is easier to get driver kits from apple than from every other manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de i thought nec and toshiba cd rom mechanism have an average access time of less than ms while the sony apple cd rom drive has an access time of ms for the doublespin models chung yang the toshiba has a ms access time the nec has a ms access time right around the sony apple access time is of course somewhat important but not as vital in the case of cds as data transfer rate all the drives are double speed drives with maximum data transfer rates of k second any is a good choice apple s is very cheap when included with new macs and i agree with christian s comment about drivers plus apple s is bootable on the centris and quadra a very nice feature if you need to install system software i don t know if the nec or toshiba are bootable on those machines mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new apple ergo mouse in article c qm on dartvax dartmouth edu geoffb coos dartmouth edu thumper writes in apr utkvx utk edu nwcs utkvx utk edu schizophrenia means never being alone writes does anyone know how to open up the apple ergo mouse adb mouse ii mine lives near a cat true really and picks up her fur from what i can tell it looks like apple welded it shut by rotating the plate around the mouse ball counter clockwise you can open the mouse and clean it it isn t as obvious as the desktop bus mouse i but it opens quite easily once you see what has to be done geoff geoffb dartmouth edu computing support consultant tuck school of business if you don t vote you don t count i think the original poster meant opening the mouse not just releasing the ball and getting to the rollers i found that on the original adb mouse sometimes unscrewing the two halves allowed for easier cleaning if the original poster has his answer i ll ask how do you open the new ergonomic mouse by open i mean split the two halves to get at the guts it isn t obvious to me based on the minute look i spent with one at the office yesterday as there are no visible screw heads mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re disappointed by la cie in article bc f d news service uci edu wayne chen eapu orion oac uci edu writes industry after all it does sound unfair to me for someone that has oops i meant fair not unfair
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra problem question i just got a quadra and i ve noticed that i can t change the desktop color from the beautiful gray i thought maybe i should reinstall the os using the install me first macintosh centris quadra diskette because the system file on this diskette is more recent than the one on the hard disk the easy install selects macintosh cnetris system software does anyone know if i should use this or customize and use system software for any macintosh or does it matter thanks in advance for any suggestions kay alexander old dominion university bitnet kba s oduvm internet kba s oduvm cc odu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re sales of powerbook slowing down in article martin tohi comp sys mac hardware martin tohi jean francois martin writes first this is not an april joke a dealer in my town told me that the powerbook don t sell as they use to sell the guy told me that apple is having the same problem it has when the desktop mac was too expensive the powerbook are too expensive in comparison to what you can get on the dos side what do you think of this do you feel the same thing about it just curious sounds about right if there is high demand for a product there is little incentive to aggresively cut prices once the demand fall off a bit then is the time to start getting aggressive with pricing waiting too long can really hurt your business though the powerbooks have sold very well up to now if they are slowing down apple needs to come out with some lower priced versions the only reason i own a powerbook is that i could spring for a pb the rest of the lineup is way to pricey for me i d bet they ll be coming out with more power versions too michael peirce peirce outpost sf bay org peirce software suite hibiscus place san jose california usa makers of voice fax smoothie applelink peirce america online afc peirce
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cache card and optimum memory settings here s a question that may be simple enough to answer but has stumped myself and a few others what does an external ram cache card do for you if you already have a large cache set through control panel in your simms ex i have a mac iici with meg ram an external video card so i don t rob my simm s and the default apple cache card i believe this is k say i have my cache set at meg what good does a measly k do me on the cache card could it actually slow things down by dividing the cache between the card and the simm s or does it still speed things up by providing a secondary staging area for data normally passed directly into the simm ram cache i m confused because it seems like cache cards are so low in memory to really do any good compared to what you can set yourself yet daystar fastcache has numbers which show around a performance boost on some operations are the chips on the cache card simply faster than most simm accesses please help i m trying to find the optimum memory settings for the iici system described in the ex above patrick hurh fnal fnal gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors and video cards for se hello all i am thinking about buying an external monitor for my se and was wondering if anyone out in netland has any advice for me i am mostly thinking about a color monitor and an bit card that can switch between and something higher like i read an old report on a card from lapis that could do this but could not use the external monitor as the main screen with menubar which to me is a major draw back has this perhaps been fixed or can any other cards do this like the micron xceed also which monitor should i buy at the moment i am leaning towards the sony s or what exactly is the difference between these but are there any other good cheap monitors i should know about doesn t the monitor have to be multisync to support cards that can switch resolutions please send me e mail and i ll summarize i would also greatly appreciate getting the e mail addresses of any mail order companys that sell monitors or cards thanks in advance eggert thorlacius university of iceland
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new apple ergo mouse i believe that in order to get at the innards of the new mouse you must remove the label on the bottom that says apple desktop bus mouse ii there you should find two screws on either side i haven t tried it myself yet but when i ran my fingernail accross the label these two divots appeared and i can only assume that these are the elusive screws in question cheers john john m graham the cleveland institute of music jmg po cwru edu brought to you by the letters j m and g and the number
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors in article pco einn i corona hsc usc edu daniel s chen dschen corona hsc usc edu writes i m interested in getting a color monitor for my new lciii unfortunately i m really quite confused with the sony monitors could someone please compare the sony and the apple thanks dan just thought i would mention that sony no longer manufactures the cpd because of several manufacturing flaws the new model is now the which just like apple s new sony trinitrom claims to be inches i m not sure of the details on the defects but i work at our schools bookstore and can tell you that nearly half of them were returned with some kind of defect or another just my two cents worth
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors joseph m kasanic jmk po cwru edu writes just thought i would mention that sony no longer manufactures the cpd because of several manufacturing flaws the new model is now the which just like apple s new sony trinitrom claims to be inches i m not sure of the details on the defects but i work at our schools bookstore and can tell you that nearly half of them were returned with some kind of defect or another i m assuming that you are referring to the s correct what kind of flaws have been reported i ve been using mine for about months now and i haven t noticed any problems might they develop later or did i get lucky and snag a good monitor just curious john john m graham the cleveland institute of music jmg po cwru edu brought to you by the letters j m and g and the number
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re how do you like the apple color onescanner in article apr midway uchicago edu johnc jcav ellis uchicago edu writes we re all set to buy one of these for the office to use for scanning in color photographs and for optical character recognition we ve played with the original grayscale onescanner and were very pleased is the color model comparable in quality also what brand of ocr software would you recommend we re leaning toward caere omnipage any better ideas thanks i work in a campus bookstore and we had the opportunity to demo the color one scanner i found it to be very impressive as well as affordable with the educational discount of course note also that it comes with ofoto software which is sufficient for our needs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re need advice about tech works etc gregory welch writes i followed the instructions for returning the old ram expecting to see a credit on my visa within a few weeks well months went by and no credit after many calls almost none of which were ever returned arghhh i finally found someone who told me why we never received your old chips i then explained i the procedure that i had followed to return them to which the person replied you mean you sent them us mail which i had per the original sales person s instructions i was told that they their loss of us mail shipments is not uncommon come on and that i should have sent the stuff via fedex etc i also returned pb memory last summer for credit and the sales person warned me not to use us mail i did although i did insure the shipment and apparently techworks got it my minor grip with techworks is that they have different price lists for different people i ordered duo memory thinking i got their best price because of my employeer i subsequently found out that apple was offering developers memory for less than techworks charged called up to complain and was told i should have said i was an apple developer and they credited my card for about of the purchase price i like techworks quality and installation instructions and they include powerbook tools but for out of ca purchases no sales tax chip merchant seems to be a bit less forrest howard oracle corporation oracle parkway box redwood shores ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lc vs rc in centris i would like to know what people s opinions are about the real world differences are between a c with and without a coprocessor i don t use anything like mathamatica maple etc i don t use spreadsheets at least no sheets with complicated anything i don t use d cad apps although i used to i do use d renderers extensive communications i run a bbs i write software i write papers etc btw just for kicks this is what i was told by my local apple rep about upgrading a lc to a rc on a c well apple built in an extra socket for the coprocessor chip that way you just plug in the coprocessor and it works i then heartily laughed and hung up the phone thanks nate o o i hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns longs lance colostate edu o o
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc vs rc in centris i also use photoshop to edit photos and do dtp work nate
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new apple ergo mouse in article c eqg h dartvax dartmouth edu hades dartmouth edu writes nwcs utkvx utk edu schizophrenia means never being alone writes does anyone know how to open up the apple ergo mouse adb mouse ii mine lives near a cat true really and picks up her fur from what i can tell it looks like apple welded it shut you must not have tried very hard i just opend mine in about seconds take a look on the bottom it has a dial that turns to open much like the older adb mouses used to have it s a bit harder to turn at first but it is quite simple to open nope i m pretty sure that this person knows how to take the ball out i think that what they want to do is take the mouse apart the old mouse had four screws on the bottom that you could unscrew to do this while there s no obvious way to take the new one apart tony quan cs stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iisi clock upgrade hi i have been getting a lot of requests for this information so i thought i would post it for those interested parties sorry for length to increase the maciisi speed to mhz or mhz the clock must be changed from mhz to mhz or mhz respectively this is done by going to a static free work station or putting some aluminum foil down to work on open up the si by lifting the tabs at the back of the case remove the hard disk by disconnecting the power and scsi cables spreading the tabs and lifting the drive out remove the flopy drive remove the power supply by spreading the tab in front and lifting the supply straight up and out remove the fan by pressing the ears together at the back bottom side of the fan and lifting straight up and out remove the mother board by spreading the tabs on the left and right side of the board and sliding the board forward then lifting the board out all connectors on the back of the board must be removed first desolder the mhz clock the one closest to the memory modules this is not easy even for a skilled solderer get an ic socket with the round pins and remove four of the pins by pushing them up from the bottom with long nose pliers put the four pins in the holes vacated by the clock and solder them in insert a mhz or mhz clock put large power transistor heat sink s on the processor chip and the other large chip just to the right of the processor and figure some way to hold the heat sync s in place i made a simple clamp by putting a four inch screw up through the hole in the board between the two chips mount the screw using insulated washers screw a cross member down over the heat sync s to hold them in place don t use too much pressure put it all back together and go for it disclaimer this is only the procedure i used and is not authorized by anyone you are on your own for this procedure i m quite sure it will void your warentee bye for now ralph durtschi idaho state university email durtralp ux isu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	racet optical i ve got a racet mo drive with a ricoh ro e mechanism with the new roms the thing is i have a new tosoh optical disk bytes per sector cart for the thing that refuses to mount or be formatted all the carts that i have for the drive that work are racet certified media k sector carts all i can think of is that this tosoh cart uses some kind of incompatible low level format anyone know what software will allow this to be formatted on this drive or a new dip setting for the mechanism i ve tried just about every combination of drivers and custom formatting programs i can find with no luck any ideas joshc csa bu edu if you have a good idea please e mail it to this address if possible i can t check this newsgroup constantly thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook the powerbook with fax data modem is available thru citibank s citidollars catalog for s h citidollars the modem is bps data bps fax send only monty solomon po box framingham ma monty roscom think com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	problems with a rose does anyone work with the a rose card we have the problem that after certain crashes the card disappears from the system and lets crash the mac then okay we don t use the card quite like one should because we simulate errors in the before every instruction some specified registers are masked eg to simulate a stuck at error in certain bits normally the crash instance of a rose notices a crash sets a flag and stops working by reading the mentioned flag the mac can notice a card crash that works fine for almost all crashes but as said sometimes the card doesn t set the flag and disappears from the system the documentation of a rose does not tell us anything about its behavior when crashing and so at the moment we are trying to understand by analyzing the assembler code and that s both frustrating and lengthy so can anyone help please only reply via email as i don t read this group department of computer science iv university of dortmund germany laf aennig e mail maennig veronica informatik uni dortmund de in the beginning god created adam ahem atoms atoms of hydrogen
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re floptical question in article bmyers slip x ots utexas edu bmyers ccwf cc utexas edu billy lee myers jr writes the last time i looked floptical disk weren t all that cheap per floptical disk per megabyte per sysquest is per megabyte flopticals have been available since the beginning of the year at per floptical per megabyte and i have seen them advertised in macweek at per megabyte for someone on a tight budget the fact that the minimal dollar increment for more storage is less versus sometimes matters
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris video problem help we have recently obtained a centris and it has developed an unusual video problem model with mb hd k vram no cards monitor apple when the computer is set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through a window horizontal white lines appear on the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate as the operation is continued if a window is moved over the involved area of the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area of the screen this problem is not observed if the monitor is configured for colors or a inch apple monitor with colors is used i suspect a bad video ram chip but cannot be certain the problem has been apparent since day but has gotten worse we were wondering if anyone has seen anything like this and if so how to fix it please also respond to azelenet bigmac mskcc org thank you for your help andrew zelenetz molecular biology program memorial sloan kettering cancer center
comp.sys.mac.hardware	noisy se what can i do there s this old se here it s got the older style fans that remind me of a house ventilator a cylindrical drum instead of the bladed rotor i usually see anyway the se makes this loud buzzing noise due to vibration somewheres if i remove the screws and loosen the front from the back it quiets down i can only assume that the fan housing from this goofy thing is touching the back of the case and vibrating against it anyway any suggestions for where to get replacement fans and how to stealth this guy your experiences welcome if everything had gone as planned everything would have been perfect batf spokesperson on cnn regarding failed raid attempt in tx
comp.sys.mac.hardware	tempest and cyclone info needed if anyone has any information about the upcoming new computers cyclone and tempest i am in need of some info anything would be greatly appreciated thanks shawn breedsa wkuvx bitnet
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re rumours about new duos jek ultb isc rit edu j e king writes since we are on the subject of chip power consumption i heard from a very reliable source that the dec alpha chip uses the power that intel s pentium chip does and it still whips the pentium s butt makes you wonder why intel ever made a chip to begin with wouldn t you like a powerbook alpha running about mips cool idea bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt sorry wrong it would be an extremely hot idea at least with the current alphas the available alphas run up to mhz but they produce quite a bit of heat in fact so much that they need special mounting with extra large heat sinks also apple looks pretty commited to the powerpc route instead of a deal with dec sid sidney w kitchel kitchel cs indiana edu kitchel dpsi com data parallel systems inc dpsi e morningside drive bloomington indiana usa fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ps appletalk card question i have a chance to buy a used ps appletalk card to create a network with my home machines however the guy who has the card tells me there s a db or db can t remember now on the back of the card rather than the pin or pin mini din that i expect this sounds more like a thicknet ethernet card should there be a transciever on it like on the quadras what would be a reasonable price to expect to pay for one of these cards keeping in mind that it s micro channel architecture which means take your best guess and double it email replies would be appreciated to here or to rrr ideas com thanks richr the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
comp.sys.mac.hardware	removable storage we have a quadra with mb hd but need to a lot of sound sampling for auditory research what would be the best type of removable media for storing these audio clips ron they say i m lazy but it takes all my time life s been good to me so far joe walsh ron pritchett internet pritchet ash cs scarolina edu fidonet ron pritchett
comp.sys.mac.hardware	a mouse in the bottom drawer i just found an old a mouse with a db pin plug i assume that it belonged to a deceased plus or something could any simple modification turn it into a proper adb mouse reply by mail preferably thanks ulf lagerstedt communicator c consult sweden ulf c consult comm se
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re re re x video on q adaptor pinouts this does not make sence why would the fg work but the fgx not work it is the same monitor without accucolor and digital controls works fine at x with svga what s the deal anyway you can get a svga with mm and x for at damark are you saing that it probably would work while a nec won t the fgx has a maximum horizontal scan rate of khz so driving it at khz to get x on the mac is way beyond the tolerance the fg is spec ed at khz so going khz is only above the minimally guaranteed figure i too doubt if the damark monitor would sync to a mac at x like most things you get what you pay that s the deal john rutirasiri p s i wouldn t have posted if i wasn t sure
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra acceleration about this quadra clock acceleration has anyone heard of anything like it for the quadra please reply e mail i don t get to the news very often thanks mark beale mbeale at wallaby mrc uidaho edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac plus is constantly rebooting in article c hsyu dxq hpuerca atl hp com russ hpuerca atl hp com russ hodes writes tae shin tshin husc harvard edu wrote basically the mac pluses are constantly rebooting themselves as if the reboot button were being pushed sometimes the mac is able to fully boot and display the desktop but it is only a matter of time before it reboots again at times the frequency is as high as several times a minute i wonder if your mac has those little reset interupt switches installed they are plastic devices that push on the switches which are inside the mac or mabey those switches are bad and need replacing this problem is usually a low vdc from the power supply there is an adjustment for this on the supply if the voltage is still unstable or low then the culprit is probably a bad rectifier at cr jeff hite computing center u of oregon jeffh ludwig cc uoregon edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	a stylewriter ii question i just read an article on the swii one thing puzzles me the article says the swii is a serial only device does that mean i ll have to unplug my modem each time i want to print something
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cd rom for a quadra would there be any problems with hooking up a toshiba external cd rom drive to a ron hey jack the ripper won t you come on over and hook me up to the power lines of your love jethro tull ron pritchett internet pritchet ash cs scarolina edu fidonet ron pritchett
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re interesting adb behaviour on c in article apr waikato ac nz ldo waikato ac nz lawrence d oliveiro waikato university writes i ve noticed an interesting phenomenon on my centris if i unplug the keyboard and mouse and plug them in again without turning the power off the mouse suddenly switches to about half its normal movement speed i check the mouse control panel and there s no change in its setting there it s still on full speed the way i like it restarting the machine restores the normal mouse speed by the way it happens with both the newer style mouse that came with the centris and the older style mouse from my iifx at work thus i don t think it has anything to do with the resolution setting in the mouse it s definitely a quirk of the adb interface either hardware or software in the centris itself i have noticed this exact same phenomenon occurs with my lciii perhaps it is a quirk of the new machines dan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iisi clock upgrades any new reports about iisi clock upgrade to mhz mhz any failures a iisi owner with a slow mac and an itchcy soldering iron
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what is rom accelerated video in the macuser article on the new centris and quadra machines mentioned that the c and the q and not the c had rom accelerated video it didn t seem to make much difference in their benchmark test what is it i don t recall seeing it in dale adams post erik speckman p s could someone tell me if dale s posts on video and memory are archived somewhere
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes jbailey world std com jim bailey writes b clark nwu edu brian clark writes quarda is a popular misspelling of quadra which has a mhz processor the has a mhz and some local buses on the motherboard run faster the video is different also the can run a and i believe a monitor in bit color without a vram upgrade actually you could put as much vram into a q as you want and you still won t be able to get bit color on any monitor it s not part of the on board video the q however can use bit video on monitors up to with mb of vram hades yes but if you upgrade the vram in a you get bit color so you really don t care my point is that out the box the has more video capability for the same size monitors the can do bit with both and doesn t support and does bit on monitors
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra differences jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov jim jagielski writes jbailey world std com jim bailey writes rdk cec wustl edu robert david klapper writes i also believe that the fixed a bug in the cpu which screwed up some floating point calculations robert d klapper washington university in st louis rdk cec wustl edu lubarsky s law of cybernetic entomology there s always one more bug does someone have any definite information on this this is the first i ve heard of it how does the cpu get fixed by a hardware upgrade this doesn t make much sense to me let s see now the differences between the and are basically runs at mhz not mhz has mhz i o bus not mhz upgraded graphics controller results in q requiring ns vram not ns rom fixes a rounding errors in floating point calculations at th digit so patch the roms with the latest os version i don t see how this is a problem b ethernet problems with more than buffers so no doubt the person was refering to a hardly screwing up though jim jagielski and he s gonna stiff me so i say jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov hey lama how about something nasa gsfc code you know for the effort greenbelt md
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what to put in centris internal bay hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes tzs stein u washington edu tim smith writes jbailey world std com jim bailey writes yes you get internal mixing of the analog cd audio outputs with the mac generated audio on the mac motherboard also you can sample the cd audio using the sound control panel by clicking on the options button next to the microphone icon how do you click on the options button i ve never seen it undimmed the latest word on this is you have to disconnect the microphone cable on the motherboard then the button is supposed to un dim hades sorry i assumed that the the various new machines with the internal cd rom bay worked the same as the quadra obviously they don t i can use any of three inputs by changing the radio button under the sound cp on my quadra microphone external and cd rom i always leave the microphone plugged in even though i never use it
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iici q upgrade in article c ha x oq austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes a while ago i posted a note asking for specs on the quadra and opinions on the q upgrade of a iici vs an accelerator card so far no responsed that i ve noticed please let me know what you think of these possible upgrade paths cost efficiency pros cons etc thanks complete q are best obtained from your dealer or some recent copy of macworld or macuser my foggy memory suggests that the most relevant comparison factors vis a vis a iici are as follows mhz mhz data path don t recall this for sure but it s slower than q style machines for sure ethertalk card on board audio in out mb ram on motherboard simm slots nubus slots more flexible build in video than the ci uses vram in comparison a iici with an accelerator won t give you audio or ethernet or the same video options with a accelerator cpu performance can be comparable but i think it ends up costing more greg dudek
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re sampling cd audio was re what to put in centris ldo waikato ac nz lawrence d oliveiro waikato university writes in article bskendigc h i fu netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes jbailey world std com jim bailey writes yes you get internal mixing of the analog cd audio outputs with the mac generated audio on the mac motherboard also you can sample the cd audio using the sound control panel by clicking on the options button next to the microphone icon what s this my iivx with an internal cd doesn t have any cd audio icon i can t find any such option on my centris either on the other hand i don t see why i need one if i try recording sound with the built in microphone with an audio cd playing in the drive i get the cd audio mixed in with the microphone sound and i guess if i unplug the microphone then i ll get uncontaminated cd audio admittedly sampled at bits through a d a d conversion sorry about the misinformation i made a bad assumption about the new machines behaving like a quadra see previous post about sampling the cd audio though have you tried it i found the aliasing to be really bad like it needed a filter or something much worse than i expected i installed the cd in the quadra myself so maybe i missed something everything else works great though
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re recommendations for removable storage media wanted in article apr kth se you write after having used both syqyest and bernoulli s i most enthuiastically recommend bernoulli s syquests although more popular are much slower prone to cartridge what does your friends have buy it if you have no friends buy a mb optical and stop i bought a bernoulli pro drive last year after comparing it with lots of diffrent storage solutions optical drives are slow very slow compared to to ms access of bernoulli since i needed additinol online storage rather than just a backup or archiev e disk i choosed bernoulli drive i use adobe preimere and quicktime movies alot you ran out of storage real fast imho the best buy currently is the bernoulli multidisk mb per cartridge homayoon akhiani turning ideas into reality digital equipment corporation alpha the new beginning reed rd hudson ma all rights reserved copyright c email akhiani ricks enet dec com the words are mine and not my employer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lcd overhead projectors i am looking for one of those color lcd screens you place on an overhead projector and control the presentation with a mac can you recommend me a particular brand what price are we talking about thanks jan vandenbrande jan ug eds com new address jan lipari usc edu school address forwards uucp uunet uupsi ug jan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ad conversion i am working a data acquisition and analysis program to collect data from insect sensory organs another alternative is the use of the sound input port can you really make due with the non existent dynamic range of an bit converter of probably dubious linearity and monotonicity and perhaps ac coupled as well it would depend on the requirements of the poster s data for some purposes resolution with or without calibration curve otherwise the other possibilities would be get a digital voltameter with serial output connect to serial port on mac collect data with some communications program buy an a d chip from analog devices burr brown etc connect to a parallel to serial converter use serial port for acquisition nah too much soldering and trouble shooting get a board from national instruments data translation omega etal the finest solution but possibly the most costly to the original poster if the signal is too large why not use a voltage divider two resistors cost very cheap george sukenick sci ccny cuny edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook batteries a quick query for powerbook gurus tom spearman in a post on alternative powerbook battery options mentioned that there exist versions of their powerbook batteries a amp hour one m a a amp hour one m b and a amp hour one m c anyone out there know how to determine which of these a battery is i looked at my battery and there is no obvious exterior indication i contacted tom spearman who had gleaned the information from macuser and he didn t know either anyone out there know the answer thanks christopher majka nextug ac dal ca btw if you can reply via email i would be grateful i don t often read this newsgroup i will post a summary of answers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what happens if you completely flatten your pb s battery in article c fodg on raistlin udev cdc com swiers chaos aqeng cdc com aaron swiers writes schuyler netcom com gabriel m schuyler writes stanger otago ac nz nigel stanger writes can running a powerbook s battery completely flat have any detrimental side effects other than the pb not going i ask only two things i can think of although nicad c batteries should be completely discharged about once a month leadacid batteries shouldn t ever be completely discharged well maybe once in a while is okay this is a very common mis conception dealing with ni cad batteries it is a good idea to completely discharge a ni cad cell periodically it is not a good idea to completely discharge a ni cad battery the difference being that a cell is only one cell nicad puts out volts like a rechargeable aaa aa c or d a battery is defined as more than one cell volt or for nicad equivalent due to differences in the individual cells of a battery complete discharge can actually harm a nicad battery more than help it overcome the memory effect the most common problem is that over time an individual cell can develop internal shorts which will weaken other cells that are connected to it thus reducing the lifespan of your battery pack etc okay naive question how does one discharge a cell without discharging the entire battery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	memory upgrades excuse me if this is a frequent question i checked in several faqs but couldn t really find anything i have a iisi with the standard meg memory and i want need to add additional memory but i m on a budget i really don t need more than meg max so what is the best performance wise and most economical way to do this someone told me that i should only use simms of the same amount of memory that is meg meg etc what if i just wanted to buy just meg and use the rest of what i already have the manual hasn t been very helpful with this thanks respond via e mail if it isn t worth the bandwidth common human laws and interests i wouldn t exactly call it a and emotions have no validity a happy dogma but it makes me or signifigance in the vast feel better about not cosmos at large getting laid hp lovecraft r carter jacob sunspot ssl berkeley edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	trying to find a reliable power center for macs hi there i am trying to find out a reliable power center it is basically a surge protector that sits below the monitor and has individual control for each outlet some people have an opinion that none of them work well the ones that i could locate in microcenter catalogue were tripp lite s isobar command console proxima power director kensington masterpiece plus has anyone used one of these could you please send me your feedback on these thanks shalabh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris tms drive i recently purchased a centris and am having difficulty getting my computer to recognize my hard disk drive external using both the disk uitily of tms diskwriter and jasmine s software neither one will show the drive the drive is the only device connected to the scuzzi port i cant find the manual to the tms pro and seem to remember that it is terminated is there something else that i am doing or not doing that does not allow my to recognize my external disk drive thanks in advance for the information eugene e rosen genie erosen riverside road compuserve sandy hook ct aol gene rosen
comp.sys.mac.hardware	modem question art
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re educational pricing in article c iz n kyv cs dal ca hayes ug cs dal ca kevin b hayes writes you can find retail that is within the price of a keyboard of educational prices i would be very wary of retail outlets selling as cheap as educational prices i went for a retailer actually mail order cda computers because its price was better thant the campus computer store i found out why later on when i tried to get a repair done at an apple registered repair center the cpu was a resale the serial number had been removed and replaced with a non standard number probably from cda computers consequently the apple repair man could not do any warrenty repairs so i ended up with just a day warrenty from cda over the apple month warrenty boy was i pi ed moral of the story caveat emptor however if you go with a reliable trustworthy mail order firm if they exist maybe someone could enlighten us with their experiences you will probably get a better price than your local educational outlet simply because mail order out of state does not require sales tax yet though for how much longer remains to be seen the addition in sales tax on a cpu purchase will probably wipe out an educational discount again caveat emptor some mail order companies do include sales tax on purchases even if they are out of state so check richard richard j appleyard f jaguar csc wsu edu o o washington state university voice fax o to err is human but to really screw things up takes a computer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re accelerator for se i too am interested in peoples experience with accelerators for the se is an accelerator the best route to improve performace in my se or should i consider upgrading to an se motherboard obviously buying a new mac would be ideal but alas i only have enough money for an accelerator or motherboard e mail reply preferred thanks steve labovitz dept of materials science engineering u penn
comp.sys.mac.hardware	where can i get the cheapest price hi all does anyone know where i can get the cheapest price for the teleport gold fax modem by global village any answer will be highly appreciated thanks in advance regards thian
comp.sys.mac.hardware	to fix trackball the trackbal on my pb no longer moves in the horizontal direction when i called the nearest authorized apple service person i was told that it probably needed replacing and that would cost me over ouch can anyone recommend a less expensive way to fix this problem one strange symptom of the problem is that when i take the ball out of the socket and shine a light into the hole i can make the cursor move horizontally by moving the wheel with my finger it works fine that way but won t work if i turn off the light any suggestions or comments ben roy just a poor college student internet br a american edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitor turning off on its own in article gcohen mailer acns fsu edu gcohen mailer acns fsu edu gregory cohen wrote in article apr rhrk uni kl de staudt physik uni kl de willi staudt ag linder writes from staudt physik uni kl de willi staudt ag linder subject re monitor turning off on its own date tue apr gmt kayc leland stanford edu k c ku writes i have a strange problem with my apple monitor which hopefully someone can shed some light on i would be using my computer for minutes and then the screen would go blank as if someone has switch the monitor off after the screen went off i would not be able to turn the monitor off even if i turn the power off and back on i will have to let the monitor sit over night and it usually turns on although it doesnt stay on for very long dooes anybody has similar experience with such a problem before is there some fuse in the monitor that prevents it from turning on when i try to turn the monitor on it seems that the monitor tries to turn on but it prevented by some mechamism in certain apple rgb monitors there has been a problem with the high voltage capasitor apple knows about this problem and is replacing the cap at no cost if it falls into the bad batch that they got from their supplier your local repair shop should know about repair extension l
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hp laserjet iii printing non appletalk with duo how does one print to a non appletalk printer using dmm laserwriter stuff i m using the serial driverand does nothig i vetried saving a postscriptfile and then tried sending with sendps and it says can topen laserwriter driver then some appletalk messagethatprinter not specified i m using and imagewritwrite one cable should i use a null modem adapter help lowell lowell reiter i need a vacation now tufts university internet account lreiter jade tufts edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	dead mouse my macclassic mouse died i dissected it and determined that it is the microswitch that senses the click that is stuck in the depressed mode this tragedy prompts the following questions is it easy to find a microswitch that i could solder into the place of the old switch i have old mice max mac ke can they be used with some adapter
comp.sys.mac.hardware	general questions on software and hardware i have just been introduced to macintosh systems i have a few questions e mail prefered just what is system i want hard details not dingy commercials like their ads in magazines has anyone used the microsoft office i would like suggestions on and descriptions on each has a microsoft before the actual name a word b excel c power point d mail what is the major differences between mac wordperfect and word thanks a lot
comp.sys.mac.hardware	performa internal modem i hear that the performa is really an lciii with an internal modem can the modem part be obtained and installed in an lciii it would be nice if it were actually a powerbook internal modem but that might be too much to hope for
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re interesting adb behaviour on c in article apr waikato ac nz i said i know that plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power on is not supported and you can hit problems if you have multiple devices with clashing addresses and all that i ve had a couple of e mail responses from people who seem to believe that this sort of thing is not only unsupported it is downright dangerous i have heard of no such warnings from anybody at apple just to be sure i asked a couple of our technicians one of whom has been servicing macs for years there is no danger of damaging logic boards by plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power on scsi yes adb no lawrence d oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university of waikato electric mail ldo waikato ac nz hamilton new zealand s e gmt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov jim jagielski writes what the heck is this is this true aps has no info since they get their formatter from apollyonics and they haven t been any help actually it s transoft now and that s what i meant jim jagielski and he s gonna stiff me so i say jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov hey lama how about something nasa gsfc code you know for the effort greenbelt md
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lc iii nubus capable forgive me if this has been asked before but here goes my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot compusa and computercity supercenter says they don t carry them does this mean lc iii is incapable of carrying a nubus board much obiliged marvin mmiller garnet msen com the more i deal with hearing editor in chief co publisher of people the more i understand the deaf michigander terrorism a year for by marvin monthly newspaper e mail me for a complimentary above quote does not apply to copy today all hearing people though
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re asante en sc pb adaptor won t work with duo bill kurland bill panix com wrote i guess this changes my opinion of them and i thought i would warn any prospective customers for the en sc pb fwiw i work for focus enhancements and a lot of the people we sell our etherlan sc sc t our scsi ethernet interface are disgruntled en sc users i also now need to know if anyone has been successful with the comparable product from dayna or focus i really don t want to use up that nubus slot sigh i wish i had better news the focus etherlan sc is currently incompatible with the duos this may change in the future we do have apple register compatible cards that are compatible with the duodocks though send questions to focus applelink apple com peter a cohen i d rather be telecommuting
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re interesting adb behaviour on c in article bb a df djcohen yalevm ycc yale edu daniel cohen djcohen yalevm ycc yale edu writes i ve noticed an interesting phenomenon on my centris if i unplug the keyboard and mouse and plug them in again without turning the power off the mouse suddenly switches to about half its normal movement speed i check the mouse control panel and there s no change in its setting there it s still on full speed the way i like it restarting the machine restores the normal mouse speed by the way it happens with both the newer style mouse that came with the centris and the older style mouse from my iifx at work thus i don t think it has anything to do with the resolution setting in the mouse it s definitely a quirk of the adb interface either hardware or software in the centris itself i have noticed this exact same phenomenon occurs with my lciii perhaps it is a quirk of the new machines sorry but mine works fine c my cents worth
comp.sys.mac.hardware	best frontplate for syquest in iivi iivx c could someone tell me how to make find get the best frontplate for iivi iivx c with internal syquest drive is there one available or do i have to make one from the original or cd rom one or scratch every suggestion welcome jartsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	spigot on lc iii a friend of mine has problems running spigot lc on an lc iii his configuration is spigot lc lc iii system video spigot extension i would appriciate if i can get any postitive negative experience with this setup thanks amir
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what is rom accelerated video in article apr reed edu especkma reed edu erik a speckman writes in the macuser article on the new centris and quadra machines mentioned that the c and the q and not the c had rom accelerated video what is it i don t recall seeing it in dale adams post of course it was in dale s post just not in the words that macuser used rom accelerated video just means that some quickdraw commands has been rewritten inside the rom to take advantage of the addressing modes commands that do fills should be slightly faster since the new instructions fetch bytes at a time versus one
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor shut down on hi res there is a defect in the hi res monitors bring it to a dealer and they will replace the flyback for free i think i just heard of this problem at work today and we are fixing them for free o r r
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re dead mouse 
comp.sys.mac.hardware	x video on a iici what do i need to do to be able to run an nec fgx in x mode on my iici can it be done with the right video card if so which video card michael
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re computer engr vs computer science in article apr macadam com mike macadam com writes i am a freshman in college and can t decide whether to major in computer engineering or computer science any advice or suggestions will be appreciated thanks mike a professor of mine once said the difference between a computer engineer and a computer scientist is about meaning the engineer makes more than the cs seriously though the main difference is that most cs people write programs that people will use i e database graphics word processors etc while an engineer writes for machines or control systems i e the computer in your car a flight control system computer controled devices etc in other words cs writes software while cse writes firmware these are generalizations but for the most part that is what the difference is p s the is not just a joke scott
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac ii scsi pmmu socket question this is a posting for my friend who does not have usenet access please contact him not me directly thank you the mac ii is supposed to have a socket for the mc pmmu chip could anyone let me know where that socket is on the motherboard i have obtained a pmmu chip mhz from a surplus store and would like to install it onto my mac ii circa but i cannot see the socket myself when i tried to install it could anyone send me the pinouts for the mac ii scsi db interface thank you contact david chan bzone attmail com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitor shut down on hi res in article apr guvax acc georgetown edu hew guvax acc georgetown edu writes there is a defect in the hi res monitors bring it to a dealer and they will replace the flyback for free i think i just heard of this problem at work today and we are fixing them for free o r r the service notice on the hi res monitors expired after this date apple will not reimburse service providers for the fix replacement of the hi voltage capacitor all you folks that have been putting up with intermittant shutdowns without getting it to your service provider missed out on the freebie it was in force for a year if you got it free after you got a deal jeff hite computing center u of oregon jeffh ludwig cc uoregon edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	more general questions i have two questions what would be required to create a macintosh pc network including laser printers line printers etc what would be bare minimum to create a network for the primary purpose of networking a laser printer by approx mac s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ok to set lbs on top of centris in article c hvjx dj news cso uiuc edu dlbg uxa cso uiuc edu david l berk writes i recently purchased a centris and a mirror technologies inch mono monitor i m wondering if it is ok to set the monitor on top of the cpu the monitor weighs lbs i ve called apple the person i spoke with was not sure but was going to find out and call me back in a couple of days that was over a week ago if anybody knows please respond via email as i don t always have time to read this group thanks david berk d berk uiuc edu yea thanks to lots of good information in this newsgroup i was prepared for lots of details even shipping time got my c cd in weeks i guess my biggest disappointment is the lack of detail in the written specs and documentation the case load spec is an example the setup section says apple and monitors can go on top but and other big ones can t why couldn t they publish a maximum load now if i can figure out if there s any hope using the partition button on the hard disk setup utility do i dare just try it and see what happens then maybe i can divide up the wealth among the family members a bit more securly the getting more information section of the manual suggested trying other avenues before calling apple but didn t mention the net mike feldman motorola computer group fax east university avenue pager in il urbana il mcdphx uiucuxc udc feldman feldman urbana mcd mot com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	specs i d appreciate it greatly if someone could e mail me the following if you only know one that s fine specs for the esp how it compares to the pentium specs for the with estimated cost release date etc i m interested in speeds systems it can run windows nt risc or whatever costs bus info register info all the technical info i am hoping that the can win yet another battle against the intel people thanks for any info you can give thanks lazer patrick delahanty warning mst k star trek fan macintosh user internet patrickd wpi wpi edu and co sysop of l a blues bbs lazer lablues uucp call l a blues bbs or macintosh user for macintosh ms dos files free usenet
comp.sys.mac.hardware	q fp errors was quadra differences rdk cec wustl edu robert david klapper writes i also believe that the fixed a bug in the cpu which screwed up some floating point calculations does anyone have details on this what sort of fp errors is the q sensitive to my q is having some strange problems with an fp intensive program getting a lot of ds segment loader errors thinkc and system gregory g woodbury the wolves den unix durham nc standard disclaimers uucp dukcds wolves ggw duke wolves ggw use the maps domain ggw wolves durham nc us ggw wolves duke cs duke edu this site is not affiliated with duke university idiots
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re desktop rebuild and datadesk keyboard in article c i w oe cs uiuc edu tthiel cs uiuc edu terry thiel writes ijust got a new datadesk e keyboard to go with my new centris and have a problem doing desktop rebuilds i hold down the command and option keys and restart but nothing happens the dip switches are set the right way and the command and option keys seem to work on anything else i m running btw anyone know what the problem is terry terry hi i recently bought an lciii and a datadesk e i can t remember trying to rebuild the desktop with it however it did give me a strange problem when i held down shift during startup to disable all extensions nothing happened i tried it with another keyboard using the same adb connector cable and it worked with the other keyboard the shift key on the datadesk keyboard worked well otherwise i checked the dipswitches and they are fine try disabling your extensions and tell me if it works i am annoyed with datadesk i sent them the keyboard in the mail for inspection repair replacement the technician on the phone said they have a day turn around time meaning you should receive the inspected repaired keyboard in that time well they have had the keyboard for over weeks and i still have gotten very little info from them about it it s annoying because it cost me to send them the keyboard they do not refund the money and their costumer service lines are toll calls tell me if you have a similar experience david mirsky gnu ai mit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re desktop rebuild and datadesk keyboard in article c i w oe cs uiuc edu tthiel cs uiuc edu terry thiel writes ijust got a new datadesk e keyboard to go with my new centris and have a problem doing desktop rebuilds i hold down the command and option keys and restart but nothing happens the dip switches are set the right way and the command and option keys seem to work on anything else i m running btw anyone know what the problem is terry i am resending this message because my news program may have goofed the first time terry i recently bought an lciii and a datadesk e i don t remember trying to rebuild the desktop with it however it did give me a strange problem when i held down shift during startup to disable all extensions nothing happened i tried it with another keyboard using the same adb connector cable and it worked with the other keyboard the shift key on the datadesk keyboard worked well otherwise i checked the dipswitches and they are fine try disabling your extensions and tell me if it works i am annoyed with datadesk i sent them the keyboard in the mail for inspection repair replacement the technician on the phone said they have a day turn around time meaning you should receive the inspected repaired keyboard in that time well they have had the keyboard for over weeks and i still have gotten very little info from them about it it s annoying because it cost me to send them the keyboard and their technical support line is not toll free tell me if you have a similar experience with them david mirsky mirsky gnu ai mit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re educational pricing in article apr jaguar csc wsu edu f jaguar csc wsu edu writes in article c iz n kyv cs dal ca hayes ug cs dal ca kevin b hayes writes you can find retail that is within the price of a keyboard of educational prices i would be very wary of retail outlets selling as cheap as educational prices i went for a retailer actually mail order cda computers because its price was better thant the campus computer store i found out why later on when i tried to get a repair done at an apple registered repair center the cpu was a resale the serial number had been removed and replaced with a non standard number probably from cda computers consequently the apple repair man could not do any warrenty repairs so i ended up with just a day warrenty from cda over the apple month warrenty boy was i pi ed moral of the story caveat emptor apple does not authorise sales through mail order as a result mail order companies have to obtain their machines by the grey market this market is supplied with machines from authorised resellers who have more machines than they can sell they come into this state of affairs by overordering either accidentally or deliberatly to get a better wholsale price from apple in either case they often obscure the serial nunber to protect their identity as a result the warranty is void you may save on sales tax but you have to pay for shipping i should also point out that mail order companies cannot get lower prices thatn the high volume authorised dealers unless they buy below dealer cost as a result the only way they can sell cheaper is by cutting costs and trimming margins unfortunatly they dont seem to be doing too well the lowest prices i have been quoted mailorder do not beat the lowest prices available from authorised local dealers they are even further away from educational prices erik speckman
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re to fix trackball the little blue roller on the trackball interior is probably rubbing against its support just push it down the pin so that it no longer touches it i had a similar problem rob
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re jump starting a mac ii did you remember to clamp ground to the engine block first rob
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re to fix trackball of course if you want to check the honesty of your dealler take it in knowing what s wrong and ask them to tell you of course he ll probably know right a way then charge you a service fee rob
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii powerpc hi i own an lciii and i recently heard an interesting rumor i heard that the lciii has a built in slot for a powerpc chip is this true i heard that the slot is not the same as the pds slot is that true thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu ai mit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re printer blp elite in article ghoetker nova glen hoetker ghoetker nova sti nasa gov writes i m in the market for a post script compatible laser writer my needs are pretty modest so dpi pages a minute would be just fine my budget is also pretty modest so inexpensive would also be good it will be working from a single mac but networkability would probably be a good investment for the future with that in mind anyone have comments about the suitability quality value of a gcc blp elite printer i just recently purchased the gcc blp elite and i really like it my needs are much the same as what you describe in addition i wanted to get one that i could access via appletalk so that eliminated the new line of inexpensive printers from apple the print quality is good to excellent based on what font you re using and what paper you use i m still experimenting with different papers but a medium grade laser printer paper seems to work fine printing envelopes transpariencies letter head or other single feed jobs is very easy there is an adjustable automatic centering guide on top of the sheet feeder which aligns the paper properly and doesn t feed a sheet from the sheet feeder as some do i have no affiliation with gcc just a satisfied customer earl d fife department of mathematics fife calvin edu calvin college grand rapids mi
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re daystar again in article c fqno hh news udel edu bill johnston johnston me udel edu writes i m going to buy a daystar with mhz for the se since there were so many mails about problems with this board my questions does the board work with and a ux does anybody know problems with any kind of software well i haven t seen any reports of problems with the turbo but to my knowledge daystar has not released a version of the board that works with anything but the iisi and iici and they have not finished tweaking testing for use with a ux this may not happen until the a ux upgrade is released my guess so i d recommend waiting or buying the mhz board and upgrade later when a ux compatibility is assured turbo interface cards for the ii iix se iicx etc will probably be available sooner but if a ux compatibility is a requirement it is probably best to be patient and let someone else be the pioneer an added advantate of waiting for the daystar for the se is that just as with the power cache the accelerator will plug into the cpu socket leaving the pds slot free for a video card or ethernet card with daystar s upgrade path it s a no lose situation earl d fife department of mathematics fife calvin edu calvin college grand rapids mi
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc vs rc in centris zack t smith writes konpej eua ericsson se per ejeklint writes hm maybe i m missing something but the centris has the with fpu at least the ones shipped here in europe you are indeed the model shipped here definitely does not have the fpu i own one i know no he s not missing anything you re right that some models of the ship in the usa without fpu or ethernet per ejeklint is also right all i repeat all centris s sold here in new zealand and i assume europe have the fpu and ethernet i know i bought a and it has both fpu and ethernet
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iisi clock upgrades i ve just completed a successful upgrade of a an si to mhz i m waiting on delivery of a mhz clock for a final speed trial definitely needed the heatsink the cpu was quite hot to the touch at higher speeds until i glued on a cent radio shack sink i made a call for reports of failures last week no reports have arrived here locally in seattle there is a reported cpu damage due to the user slipping with the iron and putting a gash into the board not exactly a problem due to the cpu running too fast i think it would be nice to have a poll to report top speeds and system configurations including pds and nubus cards which were used i d be happy to coordinate and report results guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ad conversion b clark nwu edu brian clark writes in article apr vax oxford ac uk roes vax oxford ac uk wrote i am working a data acquisition and analysis program to collect data from insect sensory organs stuff deleted another alternative is the use of the sound input port can you really make due with the non existent dynamic range of an bit converter of probably dubious linearity and monotonicity and perhaps ac coupled as well it clearly depends on the type of questions you are asking but in many cases it will do fine the critical information from the neuron is in the firing frequency maximum about action potentials per seconds and not in the amplitude of the signal or in details of the signal shape so the resolution of about you get with an bit convertor is more then sufficient ac coupling does not have to be a problem either since in many cases you are not interested in the dc level my pre amplifier is ac coupled also the critical point is the lowest frequency that will pass if the cutoff point is to high the action potentials will be slightly distorted but even that normally does not matter since it is the occurrence of the spike that is important however i do want to know what exactly i can expect before i start battling with the toolbox to get it going as yet i have no clue were to start looking for the technical specifications peter roes vax oxford ac uk
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re a stylewriter ii question in article egaillou miniac egaillou etu gel ulaval ca eric gailloux writes i just read an article on the swii one thing puzzles me the article says the swii is a serial only device does that mean i ll have to unplug my modem each time i want to print something no plug the printer in the printer port and the modem in the modem port jt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re to fix trackball in article br a auvm american edu br a auvm american edu writes the trackbal on my pb no longer moves in the horizontal direction when i called the nearest authorized apple service person i was told that it probably needed replacing and that would cost me over ouch can anyone recommend a less expensive way to fix this problem one strange symptom of the problem is that when i take the ball out of the socket and shine a light into the hole i can make the cursor move horizontally by moving the wheel with my finger it works fine that way but won t work if i turn off the light any suggestions or comments ben roy just a poor college student internet br a american edu ben since you re obviously adept enough to understand how the trackball works the only thing short of repairing it that i can think of is a thorough cleaning of all the parts and then checking for the proper placement of the little blue rollers since they aren t fixed in position on their stainless steel pins you might try sliding them into a slightly different position on my powerbook i can slide them almost completely out of contact with the trackball in fact one of the notes from sumex on fixing the trackball advocates sliding the roller so that its edge contacts the ball not the center cylindrical area i ve done this with my pb and it does seem to improve the feel but needs to be adjusted from time to time i just popped open one of our office s pb s and while there isn t as much latitude for movement one could still adjust the roller slightly if your pb is the same it might help i would suspect the most likely culprit to be a slippery blue roller if you can take it out clean it with a mild soapy solution or isopropyl alcohol also be sure the ball is grease free if you drop the ball in minus the retaining ring roll the ball and see if it is actually causing the axle to spin if all this still doesn t solve it then maybe a new one is in order it could be an electrical connection in which case replacement would be necessary but my experience with both mice and trackballs has been that dirt has been the normal problem not an electrical malfunction hope this helps murray murray m altheim ils ont l orteil de bouc d un chevreil l oreille instructional consultant la corne d un chamois la face vermeille csu sacramento comme un rouge croissant dancent toute nuict altheimm csus edu dedans un carrefour ou pres d une eau qui bruict
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo crashes aftersleep looks like apple bug lreiter jade tufts edu lowell b reiter writes my duo crashe i close the lid it goesto sleeplikenormal then i open it press a key the screen showsthis wied pattern you can berely make outthe menubar on top although there are no words on the bar anditfrezzes why lowell lowell reiter i need a vacation now tufts university internet account lreiter jade tufts edu i have the same problem and was about to post this hello duo owners and apple technical people i have a new duo which appears to have a problem waking up from sleep when running on battery power when woken usually for the second time after sleeping the wake fails and the screen appears with a corrupted image of broken horizontal lines and control can only be recovered with control command poweron or the reset key at the back of the machine the problem occurs even when the system is stock standard no extensions no virtual memory a fully charged new battery system etc i have not had the problem when the machine is plugged in to ac i ve checked that the battery is properly seated it appears to be fine what s going on here anyone else had this problem is it software or hardware if you have a duo and a bit of time try repeatedly sleeping and waking the machine on battery power and let me know if you see the same behaviour and let apple know too many thanks to anyone who can clear this one up for me bruce bruce tulloch sydney australia brucet extro ucc su oz au complex problems have straight forward easy to understand wrong answers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii problems finally got my computer fixed and i d like to sum up about hard drive companies the original meg drive that was bad bad sector or something was an ibm the new one is a quantum is the lciii supposed to be shipped with ibms is there a quality difference apparently second about hard drive position i ve put the lciii on its side and the new hd has had no problems at all i ve even switched back and forth between horizontal and vertical and there are no problems as far as i m concerned i don t believe hd position is important for drives up to meg in any computer don t know about cd rom though just like everything else in life the right lane ends in half a mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo crashes aftersleep looks like apple bug i do not have this type of problem but at one point an apple rep told me that duo s system enabler file version fixes some kind of sleep related problem you may want to investigate this josip loncaric
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re a stylewriter ii question i just read an article on the swii one thing puzzles me the article says the swii is a serial only device does that mean i ll have to unplug my modem each time i want to print something no the printer port on the mac is also serial it has the same interface as the imagewriter ii kris system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powervision for pb s hi i m in the market for an internal color video adaptor for my pb i was wondering if anyone has used the powervision adaptor made by mirror if so can you tell me how feel about the speed and compatability of it i might also be interested in other boards by envisio etc so if you have such a board please e mail your opinion of it thanks in advance john
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re interesting adb behaviour on c in article apr waikato ac nz ldo waikato ac nz lawrence d oliveiro waikato university writes in article apr waikato ac nz i said i know that plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power on is not supported and you can hit problems if you have multiple devices with clashing addresses and all that i ve had a couple of e mail responses from people who seem to believe that this sort of thing is not only unsupported it is downright dangerous i have heard of no such warnings from anybody at apple just to be sure i asked a couple of our technicians one of whom has been servicing macs for years there is no danger of damaging logic boards by plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power on noooooooo i ve been servicing macs for years too and i ve had to repair a number of motherboards that had been damaged this way it s rare but it does happen mind you this doesn t mean you shouldn t do it the parts that can blow the adb power fuse and rf filter aren t too expensive so if you have a someone around who can do component level repair it may be worth the risk especially if you re around seattle cause you might get to pay me to fix it on the other hand if your only repair option is the apple standard logic board swap major you should probably play it safe scsi yes adb no scsi yes adb yes floppies yes they can all cause trouble gordon davisson davisson stein u washington edu westwind computing university way ne suite seattle wa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new duo dock with process seth i fail to see any advantage whatsoever with this kind of set up seth what a dumb idea so don t buy one kristen this copy of freddie is being evaluated origin leo technology hst v
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook freezes after seconds help a few days ago my powerbook starts to freeze after appr seconds of inactivity it stays alive as long as a program is actively running or as long as the mouse is moved did anyone experience similar problems any known fixes please reply by email as i can t read this newsgroup normally regards mike fisher efisher ntu ac sg frank siebenlist franks ntu ac sg senior research fellow gintic institute of manufacturing technology gimt nanyang technological university ntu nanyang avenue singapore tel fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	daystar turbo opinions i m thinking about upgrading my mhz to the version has anyone had any experience with the accelerator and if so what do you think any problems what are the speedometer results is it much faster than the mhz basically i d appreciate hearing all about this product please respond via email and i ll summarize if there s a big response thanks in advance andrew
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re interesting adb behaviour on c in article ql nainn l shelley u washington edu davisson stein u washington edu gordon davisson writes mind you this doesn t mean you shouldn t do it the parts that can blow the adb power fuse and rf filter aren t too expensive so if you have a someone around who can do component level repair it may be worth the risk especially if you re around seattle cause you might get to pay me to fix it on the other hand if your only repair option is the apple standard logic board swap major you should probably play it safe scsi yes adb yes floppies yes they can all cause trouble otoh some of us get lucky i ve unplugged and replugged scsi and adb quite often and never blown anything i blew out the adb by shorting the cable though matthew t russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say no to police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	seeking fax for network access i am seeking recommendations vendors for a networkable fax it would mainly be used for outgoing fax s from mac s on our net the ability to fax from other platforms would be a plus ethernet interface would be preffered but localtalk would suffice can anyone provide any info thanks in advance peter peter haase internet haase meediv lanl gov network manager los alamos national laboratory
comp.sys.mac.hardware	i want use deskjet on system i used hp deskjet with orange micros grappler ls on system but now i update system to system with kanji talk then i can not print by my deskjet is the grappler ls old can i use deskjet on system please tell me how to use deskjet on system thank you from japan mori volga mfd cs fujitsu co jp
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help my macintosh luggable has lines on its screen okay i don t use it very much but i would like for it to keep working correctly at least as long as apple continues to make system software that will run on it if slowly here is the problem when the screen is tilted too far back vertical lines appear on the screen they are every pixels or so and seem to be affected somewhat by opening windows and pulling down menus it looks to a semi technical person like there is a loose connection between the screen and the rest of the computer i am open to suggestions that do not involve buying a new computer or taking this one to the shop i would also like to not have to buy one of larry pina s books i like larry but i m not sure i feel strongly enough about the computer to buy a service manual for it on a related note what does the monitor connector connect to erik
comp.sys.mac.hardware	performa plus monitor i would like to know if a performa plus monitor is compatible with apple in color display or it is just a vga moniro any help will be appreciate
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rack mount ci prices here s a good one does anyone know of a product that allows me to rack mount my ci or maybe if i blow some more money my application is music and would like to be able to haul it around would probably plan to get an mo drive or something so i don t have to depend on an internal fixed hard drive i e may be pretty rough on an internal hd i m in the san francisco bay area if that matters also anyone have any info on s and midi and would anyone care to email me with the price they paid for their or if there s a price list faq never mind just curious about the difference between the best retailers and the local university pricing thanks jeff adams adams upse mtv gtegsc com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what is the current rom version shipping in syquest drives the title says it all i need to know the and c rom versions steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo crashes aftersleep looks like apple bug mysstem crashes aftwer sleepp i use enabler i use appletalk and filesharing i have and expressmodem lowell lowell reiter i need a vacation now tufts university internet account lreiter jade tufts edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris to decstation e net adapter pnsf dw smucs umassd edu dennis j wilkinson writes not necessarily a thrid party adapter apple does manufacture transceivers for thinwire and baset twisted pair cable media as well as an aui attachment unit interface transciever they run at each if you use thinwire or baset you ll probably also need terminators apple s transceivers are self terminated if i remember correctly but i have no idea about decs the third party media adapters are usually cheaper at least in toronto than apple s i bought the adapters from asante instead of apple gurman umbra gsfc nasa gov joseph b gurman writes the decstation models and come with thinwire only can t say for certain about the models and so your best bet that s not true only the decstation comes with a thinwire bnc coaxial ethernet connector the and all have a single pin aui ethernet connector only i distinctly remembered this because when got the first and i thought all of them are going to be thinwire i eventually had to go back and ordered destas dec s oversized version of an aui to bnc adapter that must be used with a transciever cable for the rest of the stations my advise to the very original poster beverly is if all you want is to create a lan with two workstations and won t add machines to it ever go for thinwire regardless of the media type going for utp unshielded twisted pair wiring requires a concentrator which means extra money and i believe these units come with at least ports as for thicknet it s a nightmare and cabling is expensive avoid it unless you have no choice e g the two machines are two floors parts on the mac side you will need one thinwire media adapter from apple or third party macx make sure you get version won t run on system mactcp which comes with macx if you get macx v you should be getting mactcp v with it don t use earlier versions on a centris you may or may not need a ohm terminator depending on the thinwire media adapter so just ask the sales if the adapter is self terminated or not configure mactcp to use ethernet on the decstation side you will need for a model you will only need a t connector for models you will need an aui to bnc adapter get one that can be plugged in directly to the aui port of the decstation this way you save the cost of a transciever cable a pin aui male to a pin aui female cable get a ohm terminator your two machine network will look like this t decstation centris or t decstation centris ohm terminator t t connector thinwire rg coaxial cable aui to bnc i e thick to thin adapter thickwire media adapter assuming self terminated andy andy sun andy ie utoronto ca taddle creek road toronto computing coordinator ontario canada m s a department of industrial engineering phone university of toronto fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	vga monitors and the mac lc series of computers i recall reading that the mac lc and presumably the lc ii iii can use stand ard vga monitors with appropriate cable adapters i am uncertain of this sinc e i have asked other people who say this is not so so can all vga monitors be used on the mac lc what are the specs needed for a pc monitor to work with a mac lc horizontal nad vertical frequencies
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lcd overhead projectors in apr ug eds com jan camhpp mdcbbs com jan vandenbrande writes i am looking for one of those color lcd screens you place on an overhead projector and control the presentation with a mac can you recommend me a particular brand what price are we talking about for a good display you must get an active matrix panel and a very bright overhead projector designed to be used with an lcd panel i e stage must not get too hot i tried out a proxima ovation unit and liked it but i needed a brighter projector i used it with a m it is also too expensive for what you get imho prices of active matrix panels are rumoured to drop substantially sometime this year something to do with tarrifs being lifted i think in canadian dollars the proxima ovation models ranged in price from about to and a good overhead projector about to for that kind of money you can get a brighter image from a three beam projector but sacrifice portability oh yes proper room lighting is extremely important especially if you want your audience to have enough light to read handouts and not have that light wash out your display at the front of the room tricky to get right
comp.sys.mac.hardware	toshiba e and p cd rom i notice the toshiba has versions b internal e external and p portable can anyone tell me the difference between the portable and the external version where in the sf bay area can i find a model p thanks bill william daul advanced support informix software inc bohannon dr wk menlo park ca uunet infmx billd or billd informix com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	converting keyboard for mac plus i have an old mac plus a couple of years ago i bought a shiney new lc it came with apple s new keyboard with abd ports i replaced it with a mac pro plus extended keyboard which i thoroughly enjoy thank you very much well i have this extra keyboard which i would like to use on the plus but there s a little problem the plus uses an rj jack for keyboard input and the new keyboards don t i got an extra adb cable from my local apple dealer they re such nice people but they couldn t tell me the order of the wires there are four wires in the adb cables black white red tan i know one s a ground one gets the serial signal one supplies volts and i forgot what the fourth one does anyway if you hook them up wrong you ll fry a board and i really don t want to do that if any brave souls out there have done this before please e mail your experience directly to me i would greatly appreciate it especially since apple s original keyboard is not ergonomically correct btw i did take apart my new keyboard to see if i could find the correlation between the wires for the rj jack and the adb since it has both but no such luck the connections are soldered inside of little boxes oh well tis the blink of an eye tis the draught of a breath from the blossoms of health to the paleness of death from the gilded saloon to the briar in the shroud o why should the spirit of mortal be proud william knox shagberg vm cmp ilstu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac portable internal fax modems does anyone know where i can still get an internal fax modem for the original mac portable i know they were made for a while by several manufacturers but i can t find them now thanks for your help gene wright gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac portable ram problems coprocessor not installed i just recently bought a mb ram card for my original mac portable backlit and have since had some bizarre crashes it happens when i put the machine to sleep and wake the machine up sometimes it will just freeze the cursor and lock the machine up forcing me to push the reset switch other times it will give me the usual bomb box with the error message of co processor not installed i know one solution is not to put the machine to sleep but does anyone have any ideas on what could be causing this or better yet what might fix it the memory card is psuedostatic ram and goes into the pds slot that probably figures into the problem the manufacturer is king memory not kingston from irvine ca they say the problem is in my machine any ideas gene wright gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
comp.sys.mac.hardware	driver for dataframe xp b i am in need of the driver for the bernoulli cartridge on a dataframe xp b the hard disk on the system got fried and i haven t been able to locate the original disks if anyone has it or know where i can get this please let me know via e mail thanks in advance wayne lyle wayne j lyle dilworth paxson kalish kauffman philadelphia pa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	questions about the centris s ram with a little luck i could own a c sometime in the near future and so i was just wondering if someone could clear these two questions up for me what speed simms does the c need want i know that it needs ns vram not sure for the main ram i ve heard two conflicting stories about the total expandibility of the c s ram and megs which is true perhaps another phrasing would be better does the meg version come with all megs on the logic board or megs a meg simm just wondering dave hollinsworth hlsw ltd uhura cc rochester edu o it s astounding time is fleeting madness takes play its toll riff raff rocky horror picture show pinball disclaimer they re my opinions are they yours
comp.sys.mac.hardware	replacing internal fdhd w floptical hi all i have a iisi with a floppy drive that might be bad and might just be out of alignment i haven t checked yet if the drive is not easily reparable i d like to replace it with an internal floptical can this be easily done can it be done at all i m assuming that floptical drives can read and write both k and k floppies if this is not in fact true please tell me thanks in advance kiran
comp.sys.mac.hardware	colour card for the lc wouldany one know afair price for an lc color card in aussie dollars just wondering the views expressed in this posting those of the individual author only bbs number maccontent is victoria s first iconic bbs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc ram upgrade will be slow yes what you are saying is absolutey true but what you fail to mention is the fact that the lciii uses the new pin simms which allow bit access to each simm in the case of the lc iii it only has one simm slot but accesses will be bits wides the views expressed in this posting those of the individual author only bbs number maccontent is victoria s first iconic bbs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re interesting adb behaviour on c in apr waikato ac nz ldo waikato ac nz lawrence d oliveiro waikato university writes i have heard of no such warnings from anybody at apple just to be sure i asked a couple of our technicians one of whom has been servicing macs for years there is no danger of damaging logic boards by plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power on the problem is that the pins in the adb connector are close to each other and if you happen to bend the cable a little while inserting it you short the adb port if you take it to an apple repair centre that means a new motherboard though a component replace is physically possible same goes for serial ports localtalk as well cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe this article printed on recycled electrons
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what is rom accelerated video in qknuq ut agate berkeley edu c b jl web f berkeley edu james wang writes addressing modes commands that do fills should be slightly faster since the new instructions fetch bytes at a time versus one even the can fetch two bytes at a time the new instruction in the is move which fetches bytes at a time instead of which the has that means bit pixels instead of one cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe this article printed on recycled electrons
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adding int hard disk drive to iicx i haven t seen much info about how to add an extra internal disk to a mac we would like to try it and i wonder if someone had some good advice we have a mac iicx with the original internal quantum mb hard disk and an unusable floppy drive we also have a new spare connor mb disk which we would like to use the idea is to replace the broken floppy drive with the new hard disk but there seems to be some problems the internal scsi cable and power cable inside the cx has only connectors for one single hard disk drive if i made a ribbon cable and a power cable with three connectors each for motherboard for each of the disks would it work is the iicx able to supply the extra power to the extra disk what about terminators i suppose that i should remove the resistor packs from the disk that is closest to the motherboard but leave them installed in the other disk the scsi id jumpers should also be changed so that the new disk gets id the old one should have id it is no problem for us to remove the floppy drive as we have an external floppy that we can use if it won t boot of the hard disk thank you torbj rn rognes email rogntorb idt unit no
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wanted m hard drive i am in the market for a m hard drive i have a iisi with and i am almost all filled up is anyone selling any hd s for the mac for cheap where can i get one through mail order and where is the best place to buy from for the best prices is there anyone on the net or on this newsgroup that sells them for wholesale or cheaper any info would be appreciated thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac iisi power limitations i own a mac iisi and am considering upgrades cards hard drive etc can you tell me what the power limitations are for the pds slot and the hard drive power feed secondly can you tell me if there is a separate limit for each or if instead there is a single limit for both combined felix lin a new reader of comp sys mac hardware feilimau leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification this results in silent corruption of data when used with some devices including ultra modern devices although i will not name the devices since it is not their fault an example would be a sony inch mo without the special mac compatible firmware installed one solution sometimes is to disable blind writes this doesn t sound right to me don t quadras use the c if so the mac has nothing to do with the scsi timing that s all handled by the chip about the only the timing could be wrong is if apple programs the clock registers wrong on the that however should only really hurt synchronous transfer which is not used by the mac scsi manager furthermore disabling blind writes should be meaningless on a quadra on macs that used the which is a much lower level scsi chip the mac was responsible for the handshake of each byte transferred blind mode affected how the mac handled that handshake on the the handshake is entirely handled by the chip tim smith
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re can i get more than x on monitor in article carsona sfu ca carsona fraser sfu ca debra carson writes would a virtual screen of larger size be of use to you i have been using stepping out v for some time it still is working now on a powerbook with system minor problem with menubar icons at right edge what s the latest version of stepping out that works ok with s denis
comp.sys.mac.hardware	looking for free share wares hi i am looking for ftp sites where there are freewares or sharewares for mac it will help a lot if there are driver source codes in those ftp sites any information is appreciated thanks in advance s young dept of info sc univ of tokyo email young is s u tokyo ac jp
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re questions about the centris s ram in article apr galileo cc rochester edu hlsw ltd uhura cc rochester edu dave hollinsworth wrote with a little luck i could own a c sometime in the near future and so i was just wondering if someone could clear these two questions up for me what speed simms does the c need want i know that it needs ns vram not sure for the main ram ns pin simms i ve heard two conflicting stories about the total expandibility of the c s ram and megs which is true perhaps another phrasing would be better does the meg version come with all megs on the logic board or megs a meg simm configs mb mb in each case the memory is soldered on the board leaving the simm sockets open mb is the total addressable memory for a just wondering michael a mcguire mcguire utkvx utk edu utcc user services
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disappearing hard drive in lc the internal hd in my lc disappeared for a day last week and i d like to hear any reasonable theories folks can suggest for what happened it is an lc with mb of ram and an mb internal drive running system with a few scsi devices in a so far as i know properly terminated chain i had shut down the system for a day i was out of town and we sometimes have thunderstorms this time of year and upon restarting got a blinking question mark i booted from a floppy and saw that my external hd seemed okay but there was no sign of the internal i installed a system folder on the external and was indeed able to boot from it i tried things like disk first aid and silverlining to inquire about the internal drive they either could not find it or got errors in trying to talk to it silverlining claimed it was a connor drive but it is a quantum well i d backed things up so i was able to work but at some point i noticed that the internal had reappeared now disk first aid says that all s well etc things seem to be fine but what happened was this a warning that something the internal hd or something else is about to die i m definitely nervous and if this is a signal that the internal hd is sick is it true that i can only put up to a mb drive inside an lc some folks have claimed there s a limitation in the lc other n size or power while others and that includes lacie over the phone say anything that fits is okay thanks for answers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disabling all power management interrupts could someone please do one of the following point to an init that allows me to turn off power management on my duo write an init that would allow me to turn off all power management on duo point me to documentation on power management so that i can write such an init explain to me why such an init is totally or partially impossible ideally of course i would like to be able to turn in on and off on the fly surely such an init would be very helpful to powerbook owners who want to do midi i cannot imagine why it is not possible to do unless it requires apple to divluge some secret and if that is the case the surely apple could write the init unless apple brings out new models so fast these days that even they don t know how they work scott petrack petrack haifasc vnet ibm com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re apple announce new performas versions of the in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes apple announced that it will start selling three new vesions of its performa the new machines will have built in modems and bundled software the new models will be the and prices are not set by apple but by the retailer the prices of the new machines are expected to range from what kind of post is this if you have something substantial to tell the world then at least give us details so what if they are coming out with new macs they always do that what s new about these models etc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re desktop rebuild and datadesk keyboard my datadesk mac e keyboard has similar problems i have found that holding down the right hand shift key at startup will work disable extensions but the left hand shift key won t which is unfortunate since the left one is the one i instinctively reach for similarly i have trained myself to hold down the right hand pair of command option for desktop rebuilds i is irritating cheers michael michael smith smith pell anu edu au mathematics research section australian national university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re memory upgrades jacob plasma ssl berkeley edu nga throgaw shaygiy writes excuse me if this is a frequent question i checked in several faqs but couldn t really find anything you are excused the answer varies from mac to mac so it would be a complex answer in the faq i have a iisi with the standard meg memory and i want need to add additional memory but i m on a budget i really don t need more than meg max so what is the best performance wise and most economical way to do this someone told me that i should only use simms of the same amount of memory that is meg meg etc what if i just wanted to buy just meg and use the rest of what i already have the manual hasn t been very helpful with this the si uses a bit wide data bus and therefore you must use bit wide simms sorry but no short cuts here thanks you re quite welcome greg my words not motorola s equal rights not special rights gpb gpb mac sps mot com bi i will not ride in the back of the bus greg berryman silence death motorola austin texas usa first be true to yourself glb mailing list glblist gpb mac sps mot com motorola only
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ok to set lbs on top of centris i had the same question for my lb nec fg monitor the apple guy said that their lb monitor is ok to put ontop of the centris and had no coment beyond that i was going to just put the nec on the box but then i got to thinking the monitor has a small tilt swivel base so maybe the weight would be more concentrated than with apple s i don t know the area of the base of their tilt swivel additionally the cdrom drive is in the middle so i cut a piece of thick wood to about x covered it in a cream covered cloth and used it as a buffer layer between the centris s top and the monitor mick mueck mick mueck analog com i hate chipsoft s macintax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re thunderscan got a spare imagewriter cover anyone have the replacement cover needed to use thunderscan with an imagewriter i or can i fool the printer into working without its own cover by sticking a suitable magnet into its cover sensor thanks for any help ralph the magnet trick will work be careful when you apply the white tape to the rubber carriage roller it tells the scanner where the edge is and it can come off jim edgeways infolink name edgeway wimsey bc ca gui bbs voice the views expressed here are of the individual author only from firstclass tm by postalunion lite tm from north vancouver bc canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii problems in article apr leland stanford edu ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu writes finally got my computer fixed and i d like to sum up about hard drive companies the original meg drive that was bad bad sector or something was an ibm the new one is a quantum is the lciii supposed to be shipped with ibms is there a quality difference apparently second about hard drive position i ve put the lciii on its side and the new hd has had no problems at all i ve even switched back and forth between horizontal and vertical and there are no problems as far as i m concerned i don t believe hd position is important for drives up to meg in any computer don t know about cd rom though just like everything else in life the right lane ends in half a mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu ravi its not a good idea to have a horizontally formatted hard disk in a vertical position if the drive is formatted in a horizontal position it can not completely compensate for the gravitational pull in a vertical position i m not saying that your hard disk will fail tomorrow or months from now but why take that chance if you want more detailed info on the problem please mail me at sunnyt dna bchs uh edu sunny
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii problems sideways hd s in article qmgjk ao menudo uh edu sunnyt coding bchs uh edu writes its not a good idea to have a horizontally formatted hard disk in a vertical position if the drive is formatted in a horizontal position it can not completely compensate for the gravitational pull in a vertical position i m not saying that your hard disk will fail tomorrow or months from now but why take that chance if you want more detailed info on the problem please mail me at sunnyt dna bchs uh edu sunny i asked this question a while ago while contemplating placing my on it s side i received a response from someone at seagate sorry i trashed the message stating that most newer drives seagates at the least can very well compensate for gravity this means that a horizontally formatted drive can be later placed vertically with no data integrity problems the only way that newer drives cannot work is if you have varying forces shaking bouncing etc so don t place the drive on it s side on a rocking chair what constitutes a newer drive i don t know try calling your drive manufacturer i have a quantum lp s internal and since i got it a month ago i am guessing it s newer t
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re i want use deskjet on system in article mori apr ceres mfd cs fujitsu co jp mori volga mfd cs fujitsu co jp tsuyoshi mori writes i used hp deskjet with orange micros grappler ls on system but now i update system to system with kanji talk then i can not print by my deskjet is the grappler ls old can i use deskjet on system please tell me how to use deskjet on system thank you from japan mori volga mfd cs fujitsu co jp i currently use an hp deskjet with grappler ls ver and it works on system course i only use the swa dutch and swa swiss fonts that came with it due to the x size requirement to print to the hp ie must have pnt definition to print a pnt font when i upgraded i talked to orange micro and they state that ver of grappler ls definitely works with system however the upgrade was us so i passed hope this helps marc marc donovan donovan bnr ca voice fax disclaimer i am the only one responsible for my opinions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii powerpc mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu david joshua mirsky writes hi i own an lciii and i recently heard an interesting rumor i heard that the lciii has a built in slot for a powerpc chip is this true i heard that the slot is not the same as the pds slot is that true don t believe the hype there is no such thing as a powerpc slot hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems i don t know about the specific problem mentioned in your message but i definitely had scsi problems between my q and my venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge drives my solution was to get silverlining none of the loops that involved blind writes worked to the drives in fact the only loop that worked was the macintosh software loop whatever that means mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems tzs stein u washington edu tim smith writes attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification this results in silent corruption of data when used with some devices including ultra modern devices although i will not name the devices since it is not their fault an example would be a sony inch mo without the special mac compatible firmware installed one solution sometimes is to disable blind writes this doesn t sound right to me don t quadras use the c if so the mac has nothing to do with the scsi timing that s all handled by the chip about the only the timing could be wrong is if apple programs the clock registers wrong on the that however should only really hurt synchronous transfer which is not used by the mac scsi manager furthermore disabling blind writes should be meaningless on a quadra on macs that used the which is a much lower level scsi chip the mac was responsible for the handshake of each byte transferred blind mode affected how the mac handled that handshake on the the handshake is entirely handled by the chip the docs say that it s a scsi manager bug if this changes things at all jim jagielski and he s gonna stiff me so i say jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov hey lama how about something nasa gsfc code you know for the effort greenbelt md
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark h nodine writes i don t know about the specific problem mentioned in your message but i definitely had scsi problems between my q and my venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge drives my solution was to get silverlining none of the loops that involved blind writes worked to the drives in fact the only loop that worked was the macintosh software loop whatever that means i doubt this is a quadra specific problem i had to get rid of my venerable bernoulli last year with enough cartridges purchased at each to make the whole thing worth more than my whole computer the tech support guys at ocean microsystems suggested that some third party drivers might fix the problem in my case the cartridges wouldn t format mount partition for a ux bill johnston johnston me udel edu chambers street newark de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac ii scsi pmmu socket question in article qkmb n d jethro corp sun com khc marantz corp sun com writes the mac ii is supposed to have a socket for the mc pmmu chip could anyone let me know where that socket is on the motherboard i have obtained a pmmu chip mhz from a surplus store and would like to install it onto my mac ii circa but i cannot see the socket myself when i tried to install it the original mac ii had an apple mmu chip installed which performs a subset of the s functions if you look underneath your front left floppy bay you will find three chips all approximately the same size one will be the the next the and the third approximately the same size will be the apple chip it is easy to spot because it has a hump in the middle of it example that and the apple logo should make it easy to find ben mpretzel cs utexas edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii problems ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu writes about hard drive companies the original meg drive that was bad bad sector or something was an ibm the new one is a quantum is the lciii supposed to be shipped with ibms is there a quality difference officially no from experience yours now included yes quantums seem to be the most problem free brand on the mac second about hard drive position i ve put the lciii on its side and the new hd has had no problems at all i ve even switched back and forth between horizontal and vertical and there are no problems as far as i m concerned i don t believe hd position is important for drives up to meg in any computer don t know about cd rom though it should not matter for the hard drive or the mac well as long as it doesn t fall over doug this signature under construction wyvern technologies tidewater s premier online information system login guest password guest to register
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re noisy se what can i do in article qk rjinn cae cad gatech edu vincent cad gatech edu vincent fox writes there s this old se here it s got the older style fans that remind me of a house ventilator a cylindrical drum instead of the bladed rotor i usually see anyway the se makes this loud buzzing noise due to vibration somewheres if i remove the screws and loosen the front from the back it quiets down i can only assume that the fan housing from this goofy thing is touching the back of the case and vibrating against it anyway any suggestions for where to get replacement fans and how to stealth this guy your experiences welcome if everything had gone as planned everything would have been perfect batf spokesperson on cnn regarding failed raid attempt in tx when i owned an se i replaced the fan with se silencer available i believe from macwarehouse or macconnection it comes with instruction for installation and requires no soldering worked like a charm i think the manufacturer is mobius dave dlc umcc ais org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc iii nubus capable mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot compusa and computercity supercenter says they don t carry them does this mean lc iii is incapable of carrying a nubus board yes that is exactly what it means the lc family of macs can only use pds cards they are not able to use nubus hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re desktop rebuild and datadesk keyboard smith pell anu edu au michael smith writes similarly i have trained myself to hold down the right hand pair of command option for desktop rebuilds i tried the right set and it didn t work i m on the phone to their tech support right now and the guys doesn t know what a desktop rebuild is he s got me holding for someone else and holding and holding and holding ok they finally got back to me and said basically it should work well it doens t and they don t know why guess it will go back to macconnection and i ll buy something else i ve got better things to do than play musical keyboards terry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	g qxf fekvh regards rod cerkoney rod cerkoney ms email hewlett packard rodc fc hp com east harmony rd hpdesk fort collins co hp ux
comp.sys.mac.hardware	fpu in an se probably a dumb question is it possible to fit an fpu in a mac se not a se but the plain old se if possible would i get any speed increase what would be the reference of the chip thanks in advance sylvain r y louboutin phone e mail sloubtin dsg cs tcd ie distributed system group o reilly institute room f fax department of computer science trinity college dublin ireland ask
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii powerpc in article qksuq tt hal gnu ai mit edu mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu david joshua mirsky writes hi i own an lciii and i recently heard an interesting rumor i heard that the lciii has a built in slot for a powerpc chip is this true i heard that the slot is not the same as the pds slot is that true thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu ai mit edu well i also have an lc iii popping the top revealed one socket for an additional vram simm one socket for a pin ram simm one socket for a flat pack fpu a processor direct slot pds identical to the lc lc ii but with an additional set of connetions to one side for the full bit data path that the lc lc ii lacked that s it i guess a board with a powerpc chip could be made that would fit in the pds but that s the only place andre molyneux ka wvv insert your favorite disclaimer here pyramid technology corp internet n first street andrem pyramid com san jose ca packet ka wvv n ary nocal ca usa na
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re questions about the centris s ram in article mcguire f newsserver utcc utk edu mcguire utkvx utk edu michael a mcguire wrote in article apr galileo cc rochester edu hlsw ltd uhura cc rochester edu dave hollinsworth wrote with a little luck i could own a c sometime in the near future and so i was just wondering if someone could clear these two questions up for me what speed simms does the c need want i know that it needs ns vram not sure for the main ram ns pin simms i ve heard two conflicting stories about the total expandibility of the c s ram and megs which is true perhaps another phrasing would be better does the meg version come with all megs on the logic board or megs a meg simm configs mb mb in each case the memory is soldered on the board leaving the simm sockets open mb is the total addressable memory for a according to the seen several times postings from dale adams of apple computer both the and the require ns simms not ns only the centris requires ns simms pete
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re hd setup partition was ok to set lbs on top of centris in article apr urbana mcd mot com feldman urbana mcd mot com mike feldman wrote now if i can figure out if there s any hope using the partition button on the hard disk setup utility do i dare just try it and see what happens then maybe i can divide up the wealth among the family members a bit more securly the getting more information section of the manual suggested trying other avenues before calling apple but didn t mention the net mike feldman motorola computer group fax east university avenue pager in il urbana il mcdphx uiucuxc udc feldman feldman urbana mcd mot com the partition button in apple s hd setup lets you set up a ux and other types of partitions it won t let you create more than one normal mac volume you need silverlining or something similar to do that it will however allow you to take advantage of some possible unused space on your hard disk if you don t mind reformatting the whole thing chris ellens ellens bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re performa internal modem in article lsrk innr s news bbn com ado quince bbn com buz owen writes i hear that the performa is really an lciii with an internal modem can the modem part be obtained and installed in an lciii it would be nice if it were actually a powerbook internal modem but that might be too much to hope for i believe you were misinformed i checked out one of the p s at sears last week the modem is external bps data with send only fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re can i get more than x on monitor try maxapplezoom a shareware init if your monitor is not driven by internal video chen
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pb memory upgrade jeffe eniac seas upenn edu george writes does the pb use different memory than the newer models i am looking to buy a mb upgrade so i need to know which other powerbooks use the same mb card i think all powerbooks use the same meg upgrade but the meg and meg upgrades are different for the pb than for the other pbs eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc ram upgrade will be slow douce tfsquad mn org andrew geweke writes i cannot speak for dale but i am quite sure that the macintosh uses the full bit or bit data path to its full advantage that is it is running as fast with two or four pin simms as it would with one pin simm now it may be that longword accesses assuming a bit data path here get the first byte from the first simm the second byte from the second and so on this would mean that each longword of memory is actually split among four simms one for each byte on the other hand it could be that the simms are interleaved by word or longword not just by byte or they could be successive in memory and the memory controller deals with the eight bit data path that each one has i suspect though that they are interleaved to some extent so that bits can be read or written at once this would indicate a byte level interleave i am not confusing this with the new machines longword interleave with two pin simms of the same sort although that seems to be the same sort of idea there you get an essential bit data path ro excuse me to ram instead of just a bit one yes the cpu can t handle it but when writing to successive addresses it speeds something up so dale am i right pin simms are interleaved by bytes allowing the full data bus or as is common with usenet and me in particular am i as clueless as everyone else what conclusion can be drawn from this i m trying to figure out what kind of memory configuration for the lc iii bit datapath would be fastest any ideas thanks jason macdonald jason scott macdonald jsm cornell edu jsm crux cit cornell edu technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic cats exist so that we arthur c clarke may caress the lion
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii cache card anyone seen any press releases or heard any rumors of a cache card for the lciii now that it has the full data bus width on the pds slot maurice internet lriggins afit af mil
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help need modem info for duo hi what alternatives to the express modem do duo owners have if they want to go at least baud every place in town says they are back ordered and part of the reason i want a laptop mac is so i can use it as a remote terminal from wherever i am but i really would hate to have to wait months to get a modem in or have to settle with baud thank you
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re how long do ram simm s last in article apr ultb isc rit edu jek ultb isc rit edu j e king wrote doesn t a mb simm have about moving flip flops they don t move to anybody much bigger than an electron noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design sun decwrl apple noah not the opinions of apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems in article qm hvinnseq shelley u washington edu tzs stein u washington edu tim smith wrote attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification this results in silent corruption of data when used with some devices including ultra modern devices although i will not name the devices since it is not their fault that s fine but would you name the industy experts so i can try to track this down this doesn t sound right to me don t quadras use the c if so the mac has nothing to do with the scsi timing that s all handled by the chip yup that s why i m kinda curious most scsi problems i ve encountered are due to cabling noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design sun decwrl apple noah not the opinions of apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc iii nubus capable in article qkkq ev nigel msen com mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller wrote my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot compusa and computercity supercenter says they don t carry them does this mean lc iii is incapable of carrying a nubus board apple doesn t make such a card though i suppose a third party could one big problem is that there isn t room for a standard nubus card inside the lc iii noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design sun decwrl apple noah not the opinions of apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what to put in centris internal bay in article c jfnp fcx world std com jbailey world std com jim bailey wrote hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes tzs stein u washington edu tim smith writes jbailey world std com jim bailey writes yes you get internal mixing of the analog cd audio outputs with the mac generated audio on the mac motherboard also you can sample the cd audio using the sound control panel by clicking on the options button next to the microphone icon how do you click on the options button i ve never seen it undimmed the latest word on this is you have to disconnect the microphone cable on the motherboard then the button is supposed to un dim the audio will simply select the cd audio when the microphone is removed i don t believe the button un dims since there s nothing to select i haven t tracked down a centris to check this on though sorry i assumed that the the various new machines with the internal cd rom bay worked the same as the quadra obviously they don t yup i made the same mistake several months ago when this issue came up before noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design sun decwrl apple noah not the opinions of apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	x x how do they compare i m sure intel and motorola are competing neck and neck for crunch power but for a given clock speed how do we rank the following from st to th while you re at it where will the following fit into the list pentium powerpc and about clock speed does doubling the clock speed double the overall processor speed and fill in the s below mhz mhz thanks very much i d appreciate hearing any further explanations from any experienced folks out there too p s folks have been having trouble replying to me lately with the reply command try typing my address by hand and it should work thanks dave kitabjian kit ahb jyin vital statistics k east garden way favorite guitarist phil keaggy dayton nj favorite computer macintosh c c spaghetti preference semi broken o tredysvr ubbpc dhk tp installation pref over the top gvls vfl paramax com favorite book bible favorite rush limbaugh commercial taxula part iii favorite contradiction pro child pro choice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re hp deskwriter c opinions feedback i like it a lot it is worth the additional expense the only problem i found is with ms word a if you have a table the is longer than a page and the cells have a visible border the last bottom of page line on the first page will be missing it makes no difference how the table is formatted the worst is that it doesn t show up in word s page view or page preview arie arie covrigaru university of michigan ai lab phone room advanced technology bldg internet arie eecs umich edu beal ave ann arbor mi
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re how long do ram simm s last in article noah noah apple com noah apple com noah price writes in article apr ultb isc rit edu jek ultb isc rit edu j e king wrote doesn t a mb simm have about moving flip flops they don t move to anybody much bigger than an electron dynamic ram is not based on flip flops there s basically a single transistor and capacitor to store each bit static ram is based on flip flops and is much more expensive and much less dense and neither has any parts that move if electrons and thermal expansion are ignored noah chris chris wood bellcore ccw ctt bellcore com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re floptical question in article bmyers slip x ots utexas edu billy lee myers bmyers ccwf cc utexas edu writes floptical is of course a different technology and doesn t enjoy the long term data storage of opticals and the last time i looked floptical disk weren t all that cheap per floptical disk per megabyte per sysquest is per megabyte i don t know how many times i ve posted this the net no one ever listens once and for all floptical media is only a megabyte if you don t know where to buy it i am bying my flopticals at per disks i see that as a meagabyte not no i m not buying in bulk i m not getting a special deal a meg is good in my book approching floppy price any questions on my source can be sent to ctr po cwru edu chris chris roberts here we go again ctr po cwru edu ctr pyrite som cwru edu roberts snowhite eeap cwru edu roberts alpha ces cwru edu well at least you know where to find me now logged in a terminal checking my mail
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mz for sale absolutely never used i have a new mhz motorola that i am willing to sell if i get a good enough offer it is still in its static free sealed package if i don t get a good enough offer i will use it to replace my lc any takers supposedly you can get one of these for however at the moment the demand is higher than the supply so i think is a good round number i will pay shipping of course all offers should be send to lewallen cis ohio state edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	updated keyboard question for the plus i have an old mac plus a couple of years ago i bought a shiney new lc it came with apple s new keyboard with abd ports i replaced it with a mac pro plus extended keyboard which i thoroughly enjoy thank you very much well i have this extra keyboard which i would like to use on the plus but there s a little problem the plus uses an rj jack for keyboard input and the new keyboards don t i got an extra adb cable from my local apple dealer they re such nice people but they couldn t tell me the order of the wires there are four wires in the adb cables black white red tan i know one s a ground one gets the serial signal one supplies volts and i forgot what the fourth one does anyway if you hook them up wrong you ll fry a board and i really don t want to do that if any brave souls out there have done this before please e mail your experience directly to me i would greatly appreciate it especially since apple s original keyboard is not ergonomically correct btw i did take apart my new keyboard to see if i could find the correlation between the wires for the rj jack and the adb since it has both but no such luck the connections are soldered inside of little boxes oh well one more thing in case you are thinking that the abd ports on the newer models are different from the connection used on the plus you re right however you can use the telephone cable from the plus and connect the mac pro plus keyboard via its own rj jack in other words this little engineering feat i wish to do is possible it s merely a matter of finding out the correct order omt when i get this to work i definitely will post the solution so others can too thanx for the input tis the blink of an eye tis the draught of a breath from the blossoms of health to the paleness of death from the gilded saloon to the briar in the shroud o why should the spirit of mortal be proud william knox shagberg vm cmp ilstu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iisi clock upgrades i too have been watching the iisi speedup reports and plan to upgrade in the next few weeks the plan i have is to build a small board with a few different crystals on it and to be able to switch between the different speeds using a front pannel switch this way i can get the speed when i want but i can also run at slower stock speeds it i experience any compatability problems with any applications i don t expect to be able to switch clock speeds with the system running but if i can switch without any lock up problems then i could switch to mhz when needed and put it back to idle mhz when not needeed this would further reduce the wear and tear on the cpu even with a heat sink of course i would not want to run the different clock signals through the switch but use a chip or two on the board to select the frequency desired and route it directly to the mother board i haven t started probing around inside my si yet does anyone know the voltage level to power the crystal oscilators thanks tom dickens boeing computer services tpd yak ca boeing com these statements are mine and not boeing s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re which fax modem is the best well i am using the home office i bought it for arounde it does i don t know if it s for data or fax but the feature i use is the voic mail box which i really have liked captain zod zod ncube com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelaratores do the accelaratores make a lot of difference as i understand there is graphics and cpu accelaration does graphics accelarator help out with the scanner and the photo shop is combination of both practical i have a mac iici what kinds of accelaratores can i use captain zod zod ncube com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	photo shop scanner i have a macc iici and a color scanner i scanned a picture at dpi when i try to print it on my hp color printer after minutes of making noise the mac hangs i would need to reboot it what does this mean do i need to buy more memory i have mb now i also have about mb of disk free and the scanned picture is about mb captain zod zod ncube com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac plus is constantly rebooting on a side note has anyone ever had a mac plus smoke out on them we have had four machines that all of a sudden start emitting a thick grayish white smoke in each case it was a capacitor that had gone bad has anyone else encountered this keith cooley ee macintosh lab administrator louisiana tech university tkc engr latech edu we ve had it happen a time or two beginning students think it is pretty entertaining when it happens during a lab lecture or demonstration
comp.sys.mac.hardware	request info on floptical drives i m considering adding a floptical drive to my current system what i would like to know is which floptical drives are recommended for their quality and performance my preference would be floptical drives capable of handling both k and k floppies but handling k floppies is not a necessity so far i only know a bit about the iomega floptical and the infinity floptical drives are there any comments recommendations for either of these are there any other floptical drives that are worth looking into and where can they be purchased i e which mail order places etc thanks in advance please send replies directly to umsoroko ccu umanitoba ca mike sorokowski umsoroko ccu umanitoba ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for sale teleport adb bps modem w send fax i am selling my global village teleport bps modem w send fax it connects to the mac through the adb port the software for sending faxes is included i am asking however i will consider other reasonable offers please e mail me dave dave peak internet dppeak matt ksu ksu edu aol skibum
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for sale mb ns simms i have two meg simms that i am trying to sell i had them in my lc i would like to get for each one they are only three months old and have a lifetime warrenty they are ns simms i will also consider other reasonable offers please e mail me dave internet dppeak matt ksu ksu edu aol skibum
comp.sys.mac.hardware	put ex syquest in centris i remember reading a thread a few days ago that mentioned removing an external syquest drive from its case and dropping it in the internal drive of a centris i was going to do that with my but had a couple of questions my pli m syquest drive has a wire from the drive to an id switch on the outside of the case where do i connect this switch can the computer just tell with internal drives i noticed that the drive will lay over part of the motherboard i didn t look closely but i seem to recall it laying over the ram that s soldered onto the motherboard would that cause problems one last question is there anywhere to order a faceplate cover the drive s front panel is smaller than the space left in the case the drive s panel is the same size as the spotsbm clone s cases should i just cut a hole in the plastic panel that is currently holding tmpty place ans are welcomed thanks keith moffatt kmoffatt vax cstp umkc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iici q upgrade in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu dudek daeron mcrcim mcgill edu gregory dudek wrote in article c ha x oq austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes a while ago i posted a note asking for specs on the quadra and opinions on the q upgrade of a iici vs an accelerator card so far no responsed that i ve noticed please let me know what you think of these possible upgrade paths cost efficiency pros cons etc thanks complete q are best obtained from your dealer or some recent copy of macworld or macuser my foggy memory suggests that the most relevant comparison factors vis a vis a iici are as follows mhz mhz data path don t recall this for sure but it s slower than q style machines for sure ethertalk card on board audio in out mb ram on motherboard simm slots nubus slots more flexible build in video than the ci uses vram in comparison a iici with an accelerator won t give you audio or ethernet or the same video options with a accelerator cpu performance can be comparable but i think it ends up costing more greg dudek actually an accelerator such as the daystar mhz is cheaper than upgrading to a q mhz the accelerator costs about whereas the upgrade costs just quoted from my dealer however the q upgrade gives you very fast built in video that supports monitors up to with bit depth and up to at bit depth with additional vram it also has a scsi port capable of a much faster throughput than the ci which makes a big difference if you have a fast hard drive if the improved video and scsi features are important to you you re better off getting the q upgrade otherwise save some money and get an accelerator paul
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadras vram question hi there i have a question regarding quadras vram i have tried to find info on this but i could not get precise answers on one hand we have a quadra with a monitor which is capable of bit color how much vram does it have on the other hand we have a quadra with a monitor which is capable of bit color only so it must have ko of vram i would like to take vram simms for the and put them in the so that both machines have bit color capability is it possible and if yes how many vram simms should i take from the from the documentation i have the quadra must get mo vram to have bit color is that correct bonus question where do vram simms hide from the documentation they seem to be behind the power supply do i really have to take off the power supply to access the vram simms thanks for your help daniel salber user interface research team lgi imag grenoble france salber imag fr
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor for lciii hi folks i m planning to buy a lciii but need advice on choosing a monitor what do people recommend for a decent monitor i v looked at some ads and the spec for nec fg fge and the price is within my budget but could lciii be able to use the various resolutions available on fg specifically the x resolution does lciii only support one resolution also any recommendations for a reliable mail order place for lciii or monitors does anyone have experience with the following mail order places syex express houston tx usa flex bloomingdale il thanks jeff jeff lian lian mti sgi com or lian mips com mips technologies inc n shoreline boulevard p o box m s l
comp.sys.mac.hardware	fax modem for the mac hi all thanks to you all who have responded to my request for info on various kinds of fax modem i d like to ask a few more questions what are the advantages of buying a global village teleport gold over other cheaper brands like supra zoom etc i heard that both supra and zoom use the same software why are there so many complaints about the incompatibility problems of supra what kind of incompatibility is it if i decided to buy the teleport gold is there any possibility to add a voice option in the near future has anyone heard of a possible voice option that supra will offer this coming summer a person did mention a new at t modem is it getting good reviews from various mac magazines if i want the best fastest most economically sound and possible voice option what fax modem should i buy sorry for posting so many questions but i think they re necessary i promise to repost any answers if they re not already posted by a responder thanks so much in advance regards thian
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re macs suck buy a pc this is a test erme
comp.sys.mac.hardware	se acc graphics card are there any graphics cards for the se that also have say an accelerator there seem to be plenty of accelerator graphics cards for the se but none that i ve seen for the se thanks matt madsen mmadsen ics uci edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adb mouse ii ergo when when is apple supposed to start bundlign the new ergonomic adb mouse ii with all cpus sold jas jeffrey a sullivan research scientist et al jas isi edu internet information sciences institute compuserve university of southern california
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help scsi woes on mac iifx i am having trouble with scsi on a mac iifx the machine is years old and i have been using the same hard drive internal maxtor lxt s for two and a half years the disk recently crashed i reformatted silverlining but during the reformat i received random write errors during testing the error message reported was like sector write error detected after testing good sector not mapped out this occurred randomly all over the hard disk which makes me suspect the diagnostic s reference to sector on the third reformat and after reinstalling the scsi read write loops i was able to get through passes and with no errors pass for some reason reported a lot of errors but still mapped out no sectors i decided to go ahead and try to resinstall system and reload my data from a backup this proceded normally however i now have sub optimal performance symptoms include o frequent crashes o instances of extremely sluggish disk access requiring a reboot to correct o instances of not finding the disk on the scsi chain on reboot if i boot from norton utl after this occurs it cannot find the disk either the only thing that fixes this is recycling the power it sometimes requires several attempts questions has anyone had this type of problem before is the problem with the fx motherboard and its non standard scsi implementation or with my maxtor disk is there some diagnostic software that would help me make this determination is it a termination problem i currently have external syquest and an external dataframe xp on the chain the xp is at the end and has internal termination so i am not using the iifx terminator i do have the scsi filter installed on the internal drive i have run with this exact steup for years with one previous disk crash requiring a reformat about a year ago i also have symptoms if i disconnect the external devices so i don t see how scsi termination would now be an issue of course who knows help would be much appreciated forrest e lumpkin iii nasa ames research center lumpkin corvus arc nasa gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re dsp or other cards for fft s anyone in article qjnpi bsj nz rz uni karlsruhe de ig fg rz uni karlsruhe de thomas koenig wrote we are doing heavy duty image processing with some seriously underpowered mac s mac iisi for example most of the cpu time is burned in doing fft s what cards are out there which would allow us to take away that part of the load from the cpu any dsp or i cards out there for example they d have to be callable from think pascal to replace the one and two dimensional fft s routines in an already existing program check out the national instruments nb dsp this uses the texas instruments tms c chip which is a true bit floating point dsp it s pricey however
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re high resolution adc for mac ii in article qidk innhk iskut ucs ubc ca rob douglas douglas ecc ubc ca wrote in article qhfmg hoh lll winken llnl gov charles e cunningham cec imager writes i would like to buy a bit adc card for the mac ii with digitization rate of at least khz preferably khz i would prefer one with good differential and integral linearity and dma would be a plus other than national instruments do you know of any other vendor who sells such a card instrutech corp has a nice looking bit a d and d a board that can run at the speeds you want the itc doesn t have dma but it does have a good sized fifo that can buffer your samples instrutech can be reached at or fax i don t know about the instrutech boards though i plan to check them out but you need to be very careful checking the monotonicity and s n ratio of many of the bit boards out there the ni boards are very clearly specified in terms of monotonicity s n ratio accuracy etc and the nb a and nb a have all the dyynamic range and freedom from distortion that you d expect from a good true bit converter this is not true for the spectral innovations boards for example
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iivx c upgrade question if you get teh iivx c upgrade does it include a new sticker to cover the iivx identifier with a centris indetifier jas jeffrey a sullivan research scientist et al jas isi edu internet information sciences institute compuserve university of southern california
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pds vs nubus was re lc iii nubus capable in article c kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot the lc family of macs can only use pds cards they are not able to use nubus ah but why can some technically hip macslinger tell us what the difference is between pds and nubus is it impossible to make a gadget that plugs into pds and ends in a nubus card cage at least marvin s friend has not been able to locate one and neither have i what is the fundamental reason for this o zap bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet higgins
comp.sys.mac.hardware	power supplies for mac s i thnik i ll be able to pick up a piar of mac k s for nothing but their power supplies are dead anyone know where i can pick up a pair of refurbished ps s for cheap preferably mail order yes i do have uses planned fior them one will be sold to a friend who just needs a terminal to connect via modem to his e mail account the other will be used by me as a net client to run my downloads and or printing also what is the latest system software usable with these suckers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help duo problems chess cats ucsc edu brian vantuyl chess writes i just got a duo and i m having some difficulties if the machine is plugged in to the wall adapter put to sleep unplugged from the wall and woken up it crashes of the time there s nothing but the original system software on the machine the battery has plenty of life i think this must be a power manager problem but i don t know what to do about it also the speaker occasionally makes a high pitched hiss the noise is irregular but seems to favor sleep and restart commands i ve had my duo for a few weeks now and suffer from both of the above problems i reinstalled my system software twice in an effort to combat the problems thinking they were system software problems initially reinstalling the system seemed to help but not anymore occasionally when i try to wake up the duo i get a solid screen of horizontal lines on the screen it freezes i also get the high pitched hiss occasionally but only at startup i ve called the apple hotline sos appl three times already and finally they agreed something is astray after my duo s screen would go dim and the hard drive spun down by itselft and put itself to sleep this problem only occured twice apple sent me a box to ship my duo to be looked at in new york but the problem now is intermittent and i can t afford to be without my duo at this time anyone out there with these same problems brian cherkas bcherkas netcom com i aol brianc compuserve netcom online communication services san jose ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii problems in article qmgjk ao menudo uh edu sunnyt coding bchs uh edu writes its not a good idea to have a horizontally formatted hard disk in a vertical position if the drive is formatted in a horizontal position it can not completely compensate for the gravitational pull in a vertical position i m not saying that your hard disk will fail tomorrow or months from now but why take that chance if you want more detailed info on the problem please i think the other replies sum up the fact that you can place a hard drive on its side the point is this will only be sure to work on the new drives namely ht lps drives that have a smaller platter and are also more stable why should i take the chance because i ve been running a maxtor ht lps on both its side and flat for about a year and i ve had no problems with it period like i always say never trust the manufacturer just like everything else in life the right lane ends in half a mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	video cable options there was a discussion a couple of weeks ago about using different cables to achieve different resolutions on the quadra and centris series a company that sold the cables was mentioned can someone please e mail me the companies name address etc and any other info that may be relevant just like everything else in life the right lane ends in half a mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo crashes aftersleep looks like apple bug this is a test
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerpc ruminations was re lciii powerpc in article pyramid pyramid com andrem pyrtech mis pyramid com andre molyneux writes in article qksuq tt hal gnu ai mit edu mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu david joshua mirsky writes hi i own an lciii and i recently heard an interesting rumor i heard that the lciii has a built in slot for a powerpc chip is this true i heard that the slot is not the same as the pds slot is that true thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu ai mit edu well i also have an lc iii popping the top revealed one socket for an additional vram simm one socket for a pin ram simm one socket for a flat pack fpu a processor direct slot pds identical to the lc lc ii but with an additional set of connetions to one side for the full bit data path that the lc lc ii lacked that s it i guess a board with a powerpc chip could be made that would fit in the pds but that s the only place so will it be possible to have a nubus or pds powerpc upgrade or will it require a logic board swap it would be interesting for apple to come out with a nubus powerpc that allowed use of the cpu s x like rocketshare but i guess that s getting a bit fantastic i was wondering since macweek reported that developers were seeded with powerpcs on a nubus card also any word on machine arrivals or estimated speed last i heard the estimates were around times the speed of a quadra in native risc mode i heard an apple employee mumble something about the arrival of powerpc machines at a much earlier date that q but i doubt it s true finally is the powerpc developer s cd mini course available i saw it advertised in the developer s university calendar and i d like to know if it s at all interesting sean seanmcd ac dal ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	don t repair that sticky mouse button call apple x posted to comp sys mac hardware and misc consumers you ve heard about apple s great new customer support program well think again sometimes the only real support out there is what apple computer users can give to each other for another example read on in the march th issue of macweek ric ford described a two year effort by liam breck to document and bring to apple s attention a problem with certain defective mice at random the switches on these mice stick in the down position until clicked a second time apparently regardless of the machine they are used with or the system software involved most of the reported problem mice were manufactured in malaysia and have an fcc id of bcga you ll recognize this sticky button symptom immediately if you have such a mouse the problem is intermittent but it s not subtle liam breck recently gave up trying to document this problem and instead suggested that people contact apple s customer assistance center directly macweek p when i called apple on march rd and described my defective mouse i was eventually given a case number f y and told apple would replace this mouse even though it is a few months out of warranty after waiting for three weeks i called back today wondering where my new mouse was this time i was told that apple had decided the serial number on my mouse mb fc is not within the undisclosed range apple is willing to replace and there is nothing i can do about it nothing that is unless enough people complain about this problem to make it worth apple s while to fix or replace the entire lot of defective mice please if you have one of these mice i need your help don t assume you know what causes the problem there are lots of theories and start hacking around inside your hundred dollar mouse instead let apple do it please take five minutes to call apple right now at united states canada uk and europe australia japan and pacific if the number isn t toll free call collect describe the problem and ask for a replacement mouse even if they refuse insist that they register the details of your case including your mouse s serial number be firm network managers and user group leaders especially please query your user bases everyone ask your friends and colleagues please don t send mail to me or post yet another sticky button report call apple directly if enough victims take the trouble to report this well known problem apple will eventually be forced to respond if apple continues to find it easy to stone wall on this issue don t expect them to offer support when the next potentially more serious mac defect is uncovered bill sloan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help wanted monitor problems nec d iivi hello all for few past days i ve been fighting to get my nec multisync d predecessor of fg to work properly with the internal video of mac iivi with a vga adapter as described in dale adams posting about quadra video it works only some minor interferences occur small enough not to prevent any action on screen to be visible clear but because the scanrates stuff of d are well enough for emulating apple rgb i first made an adapter then got one fron the local distributor of nec with both adapters i can get a picure which looks excellent most of the time or every now and then but with radical changes on screen opening palettes large windows etc there are major interferences in sync the picture either tilts sideways or scrables up totally even when it is clear there are some spiky interferences on horizontal line alignment when accessing pull downs etc with the self made adapter almost identical to the vga one only sense pins differ it is sometimes impossible to even boot up with a picture clear enough to shut down from menu with the adapter from nec everything is well most of the time but sometimes the picture tilts badly sideways or the sync is completely lost but not nearly as often as with the self made one i know with self made adapters there can always be interference but with the one provided by nec where s the source of this interference i ll give you the pinouts of the whole mess and i hope that you can at least someone please try figure out what could be the best pin assignment for nec d i am going to make a completely new cable with maximum shieldings and isolations as soon as someone figures out how the pins should be arranged especially syncs and groundings yes i have checked that the monitor is not defective it works perfectly well with all pc graphic adapters up to x pixels and also atari hz monochrome which i am using now with it here are the pinouts stuff pin mini d sub nec d pin d sub mac at least quadra red video red gnd green video red video blue video composite sync gnd sense gnd green video red gnd green gnd green gnd sense blue gnd nc nc blue video gnd sense gnd c sync v sync gnd nc v sync h sync blue gnd v sync h sync gnd nc h sync shell gnd shell gnd connection suggested by apple for vga svga sense pins changed to emulate apple with multisync my self made adapter multisync pin mini d sub mac pin d sub sense grounded to sync gnd connection measured from an adapter to make nec fg fg emulate apple adapter provided by nec representative nec mini mac shell gnd same as above same same same same same not connected well i am waiting for your solutions and thanks jartsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	another res question i asked a question a week or so ago about getting more res on my monitor i have a magnavox magnascan and am wondering what video cards it supports also does anybody have magnavox s email id if there is one or maybe a phone number please reply by email as i don t read much news thanks steve steven d seeger dark netcom com string he s going to blow us out of the sky then why don t you hang your flabby behind out the window and blow him out of the sky string dom airwolf
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re adding int hard disk drive to iicx yes it is possible to add a second hard drive to a mac iicx internally this is definitely not a recommended procedure by apple but i have done the equivalent to my cx after upgrading it to a quadra the power supply is still the stock cx s and it was able to power two quantum lps drives a pli scsi accelerator a micron technologies bit video board daystar quickcache new technologies overdrive and meg of ram simultaneously i added a new mount for the drive by attaching angle brackets to the drive tower the internal scsi cable was changed to a longer flat ribbon cable onto which i added an extra connector about midway the final hd was internally terminated and the drive between the motherboard and final hd had its terminator resistor packs removed cooling has not been a problem and no scsi problems occur with either the pli scsi chain or motherboard scsi hooked into the two internal hard drives it works very well for me but proceed cautiously if you wish to do the same
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iisi clock upgrades i have read one report of a brave soul who rewired the mhz clock and a higher speed clock oscillator s outputs through a double throw switch to allow different speeds there was no mention of any attempts to switch speeds on the fly but if the si uses timing loops anything like a quadra for accessing its floppy drive dynamic switching will wreak havoc a quadra must reboot after having its clock speed significantly changed or it will be unable to properly access its floppy drive
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mo sectors track on an iso ansi standard magneto optical disc how many sectors are there per track or disc revolution and how many tracks per disc thanks jim frazier compuserve com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help with simm configuration can someone please help me understand the current situation regarding simms i have a iisi which i will probably keep for another years i would like to add more memory ie go from mb to mb i know that i will need x mb ns or faster simms which simms pin or pin would the simms i get today be usable in years with a newer more powerful system any insight would be appreciated thanks rob rob sprecher rcs po cwru edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re recommendations for removable storage media wanted in article apr kth se d jwa eufrat nada kth se jon wtte writes if you have no friends buy a mb optical huh if i buy a m optical i might lose my friends why do they smell bad and stop worrying about cartridge wear bernoulli or crashes syquest on a serious note i have heard the tales about syquest failures but i am curious about jon s comments on cartridge wear for the the bernoullis can someone elaborate is there a general consensus that the m opticals are the most reliable i am mostly concerned about media failures as opposed to drive mechanism failures julian vrieslander neurobiology behavior mudd hall cornell university ithaca ny internet eacj theory tc cornell edu bitnet eacj crnlthry uucp cornell batcomputer eacj
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris video problem i m having it also when the computer is set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through a window horizontal white lines appear on the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate as the operation is continued if a window is moved over the involved area of the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area of the screen this problem is not observed if the monitor is configured for colors or a inch apple monitor with colors is used i suspect a bad video ram chip but cannot be certain the problem has been apparent since day but has gotten worse i m having exactly the same problem again it s fine when i switch to colors or a smaller monitor my configuration is model centris with mb hd vram no cards monitor mag mx f with monitor adaptor for resolution of i just discovered the problem a little while ago after plugging in my new mag monitor it seems to appear either when scrolling through a window or when using alpha or word and i enter return my guess is bad vrams as well i really hope it isn t a design flaw is anyone at apple listening pushpinder singh push media mit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo crashes aftersleep looks like apple bug if you have a memory card installed that s not one of apple s this may be the problem for a couple of months after the release of the duo some memory manufacturers were shipping duo memory cards w improper non self refreshing chips if you have a third party card pull it and see if the sleep problem recurs tim
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re apple monitor this must be a faq from the very first days of the rgb and as for a better monitor for your well the nec fg fgx are pretty nice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re looking for free share wares young is s u tokyo ac jp young shio hong writes i am looking for ftp sites where there are freewares or sharewares for mac it will help a lot if there are driver source codes in those ftp sites any information is appreciated f a q reference newsgroups comp sys mac apps comp sys mac misc comp sys mac system comp sys mac wanted comp sys mac hardware comp answers news answers subject introductory macintosh frequently asked questions faq sven
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for the poor owner of iisi macintosh iisi ns clock upgraded iisi works well at mhz however does not work with nubus adaptor and k disk even though it can read write k disk at mhz interestingly upgraded iisi overcomes basically the fighting between the vedio and the system so that cpu never be reduced below no mater whether the cache is on or off this is pretty useful when you use the virtual memory of system mhz mhz mhz cpu vm graf disk math fpu speedometer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	performa bundle here s what s in it i went to staples in framingham ma today and grabbed the info sheet on the bundle for a mere you get megahertz microprocessor m of ram m hard disk m floppy disk drive built in support for colors expandable to colors expansion slot keyboard and mouse display mm dot pitch for extra sharp text and graphics x pixels microphone and speaker macintosh system software for performa computers version p at ease macintosh pc exchange and quicktime software global village teleport fax modem send fax only service and support year limited warranty year of in home service toll free help line support pre installed software wordperfect works best of clickart collection touchbase datebook bestbooks the amereican heritage dictionary correct grammar apple special edition of american online with free trial membership checkfree electronic bill payment software spectre challenger scrabble editor s note the spec sheet i have list s the microprocessor as a but i corrected that didn t want to confuse anybody tim
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems noah apple com noah price writes in article qm hvinnseq shelley u washington edu tzs stein u washington edu tim smith wrote attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification this results in silent corruption of data when used with some devices including ultra modern devices although i will not name the devices since it is not their fault that s fine but would you name the industy experts so i can try to track this down who knows i just quoted what was written in scsi director this doesn t sound right to me don t quadras use the c if so the mac has nothing to do with the scsi timing that s all handled by the chip yup that s why i m kinda curious most scsi problems i ve encountered are due to cabling i ve tried calling transoft corp about this and have either gotten the response huh to yep to nah you would expect that a damaging state ment like this would have some data to back it up anyone want transoft s phone number jim jagielski and he s gonna stiff me so i say jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov hey lama how about something nasa gsfc code you know for the effort greenbelt md
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help how to test simms hello i just got some simms at least one of which does not work i don t know if there is a software that can test simms thoroughly or i could just rely on the ram test performed by my computer during the start up when i installed a dead simm into an lc or an lc ii there would be a strange music and no display on the screen why i need your help thanks in advance yih tyng ytwu magnus acs ohio state edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help need modem info for duo jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu jt writes hi what alternatives to the express modem do duo owners have if they want to go at least baud every place in town says they are back ordered and part of the reason i want a laptop mac is so i can use it as a remote terminal from wherever i am but i really would hate to have to wait months to get a modem in or have to settle with baud you re not going to like this but if memory serves me postings i ve read in this newsgroup and elsewhere indicate that there are no repeat no internal modems for the duo besides the express modem at any speed something having to do with the modem using the main cpu for some of its tasks and apple not releasing details on the architecture or something i m vague on the details but the gist was that there are going to be no third party internal duo modems if i m wrong somebody please correct me on this sorry to be the bearer of bad news joel joel siegel jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu jdsiegel ocf berkeley edu i myself have never been able to find out what feminism is i only know that i am called a feminist whenever i express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat rebecca west
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re questions about the centris s ram according to the seen several times postings from dale adams of apple computer both the and the require ns simms not ns only the centris requires ns simms pete i think you meant quadra but a centris probably would be a real nice machine but yeah it needs ns not ns joel joel siegel jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu jdsiegel ocf berkeley edu i myself have never been able to find out what feminism is i only know that i am called a feminist whenever i express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat rebecca west
comp.sys.mac.hardware	great deal for those of you who have ti ps laser printers if you want an envelope feeder they are now on sale direct from ti for the unbelievable price of call same for extra paper trays they have too many gray ones and want to move them out strange but true the bobmeister from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	se pricing what is the value of an se hdfd david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sony rasterops sx si for sale update hello fellow humans and other net creatures if you re at all interested in this merchandise please e mail me djk ccwf cc utexas edu i m compacting my system and moving to a single monitor system so i have two monitors and cards for sale nothing at all is wrong with these pieces i m just wanting to conserve desk space and get all of my info from one screen i d prefer to sell to people near austin and surrounding areas within driving distance like an hour away perhaps but i can ship to you if you don t live near here only problem is that i didn t keep the original boxes for the monitors but i m confident that my few months of full time service in the shipping room will enable me to safely package the monitors and flip it in your direction details mirror full page display monochrome w nubus card sold sony color monitor what s to say it got top ratings in last year s macuser report it s a sony trinitron arguably the best but i d rather not argue that point it s a great monitor in great shape but i m going to a bigger screen and although i d like to keep it finances don t justify it still selling for at macland where i bought it originally not including shipping will sell for plus shipping again make an offer if that sounds unreasonable rasterops si bit accelerated hardware zoom pan meg ram renamed the sx a few months after i bought it this board is for monitors providing accelerated bit hardware zoom pan ntsc mode you can plug it into something like the rasterops video expander and output ntsc and ram slots that use meg or meg simms for gworld ram or a ram disk software included for such functions meg of ram included meg simms selling for at bottom line without the ram add i m asking shipping included this time it s just a card original box and packaging i d actually prefer to sell the sony monitor and this card together so if you want both drop me e mail and make a bundled offer for these items cheers dan keldsen djk ccwf cc utexas edu dan keldsen are you now or have you ever been djk ccwf cc utexas edu a a berklee college student univ of texas austin b a member fan of billy death music composition mm c a max programmer m m consultant ask d a think c midi programmer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	trade mac se system for color mac ok i want to get a color mac i don t care if it is an lc or a mac ii or what but i want to go to a color machine i d prefer to trade my present mac se system plus some cash or other equipment for the color system as right now i m not full of the to buy a color system outright here s what my mac se system has mac se with internal k drive meg external external k drive imagewriter ii with color ribbon stuff that can go with it i ve got modems and i d be willing to give of the s and the with the system multitech multimodem ii data fax u s robotics sportster data microcom qx k normally will connect at only as highest but it will do faster if connected to another microcom the usr and the multitech are both brand new if interested send me e mail at dleonard wixer bga com primary judy s stamps misc topical stamps from dogs dleonard wixer bga com to cats to baseball and many many other subjects secondary for stamp information call tony leonard at dleonard wixer cactus org this is a business only number
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why hp printers rated so low egaillou etu gel ulaval ca eric gailloux writes i m about to purchase a laser printer for my mac and i read the macuser buying guide special issue all hp printers except iiisi are rated very low compared to other noname bargain priced printers why is that so on the pc hp printers are the standard amongst printer manufacturers ps my personnal favorite budgetwise would be the iiip the iiip has just been superseded by the m which is the one i am using at work the quality of the print is execellent beating dpi printers hands down in australia the price of the m is about comparable with that of the iii series so hp are trying to get people to buy the new one anthony pun anthonyp extro ucc su oz au
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re accelerator for se in article apr ifi uio no oec ifi uio no ystein christiansen says has anyone out there in netland any experience with accelerators for se i am specially interested in speed up rate or compared to e g se need for new simms speed in ns maximum ram after upgrade compatibility i am mainly using framemaker can i use an additional big b w screen to can i install the accellerator myself no soldering price where to buy i have no experience with this particular hardware but just about every month in macworld there is an add for an combined se accelerator video board this item sells for about and comes with a mhz pair eight simm slots and a grayscale monitor this accelerator plugs into the se s lone expansion port and thus no soldering you will however need a long torx wrench to get the case open but that s not really a big deal does that sound like what you were looking for jon jon carr io maine maine edu umaine ncaa champions how about those black bears m a i n e go blue
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin map for pin din cable facing female plug end anyone recognize this it s my little layout of a eight pin female plug connector used for many mac peripherals problem problem problem printer cheap cables using this configuration switch a couple of pins between one end and the other i want to use cheap cables for an a b box anyone know which pins get reversed so i can do some creative editing on the internals of my box any help would be greatly appreciated jon jon carr io maine maine edu umaine ncaa champions how about those black bears m a i n e go blue
comp.sys.mac.hardware	si clock reports i am continuing to collect user results to produce a more comprehensive report on iisi clock oscillator upgrades i you have attempted the modification please drop me a note with details of your experience the more reports obtained the more accurate the numbers i will generate if possible please include the following top speed achieved system configuration at top mhz setting a speed rating of the cpu the last two digits printed on cpu b presence of additional heat sinks c nubus fpu cards used d floppy drive functionality on both and m disks damage incurred during modification damage due to higher speed use average length of time the cpu is on i e hours a day unusual other modifications to the usual procedure guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re adb mouse ii ergo when in jas apr tigger isi edu jas isi edu jeff sullivan writes when is apple supposed to start bundlign the new ergonomic adb mouse ii with all cpus sold as far as i know they did my new mac came with one yesterday and i got my ergonomic keyboard on order for three months the other day too cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe on a clear disc you can seek forever
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo parking hd heads when iddle the duo powerbooks seem to park the heads after a few seconds of inactivity is that builtin into the drive logic or is it being programmed via software any way to tune the iddle timeout that makes the heads park themselves i think the heads are being parked since after a few seconds of inactivity you can hear the clunk of heads parking denis
comp.sys.mac.hardware	snooper any opinions has anyone use snooper or macekg or any other similar diagnostic software any comparisons reviews on these products would be very much appreciated thanks in advance for your help cheers sir office acme gen nz be thankfull that we dont get all the government we pay for
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help scsi woes on mac iifx according to the official documentation failure to use the iifx terminator can not only affect scsi bus performance but can also damage the bus whether this is your problem or not i don t know i have had sporadic scsi problems with my iifx since i bought it i cannot connect more than three devices fourth one causes major problems first thing to do is to try to reformat your drive on someone elses system if you continue to get errors it is probably the drive if it formats fine then i would try to format it on your system with no externals if this fails then the scsi controller on your iifx needs repair replacement hope this helps david c salmon salmon unomaha edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what s the difference between a mac portable and powerbook i ve been looking into getting a portable mac to do some work and i ve had my eye on the pb lately i ve been seeing people with the old portables and they re selling for less that the pb s what i want to know is what are the differences between them all i know is that the portable is heavier but the pb doesn t have an internal drive here s what i need to know does the portable support appletalk network connections what s the cpu inside a portable does the portable support system what s the maximum memory capacity of the portable can you still get ram meaning does it use special simms what kind of internal hd does it use does the portable have a better screen thanx in advance mike gaines what is your name captain jean luc picard what is your quest i seek the holy grail what is the top velocity of a bird of prey romulan or klingon i i don t know aaahhhh meg hertz njit edu graphix aol com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pds vs nubus was re lc iii nubus capable bill higgins beam jockey higgins fnalf fnal gov wrote in article c kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot the lc family of macs can only use pds cards they are not able to use nubus ah but why can some technically hip macslinger tell us what the difference is between pds and nubus is it impossible to make a gadget that plugs into pds and ends in a nubus card cage at least marvin s friend has not been able to locate one and neither have i what is the fundamental reason for this i think that there do exist nubus expansion cages i m sure i ve seen them advertised occassionally but i think that the main problem is that they cost much more than the difference in price between say a lc and iivx so unless you need lots of nubus slots its not worth the bother of course it may be that these extra boxes are so expensive because no one buys them because they are so expensive nubus technology isn t a special apple proprietry thing i have this sneaky feeling that it is licensed from texas instruments so there is no problem building an expansion box the difference between nubus and pds is that nubus is a clever interface with lots of neat toys built in to make sure that lots of cards can work together on the same computer pds processor direct slot is just that here are all the connections to the processor you can do anything with this and it is as quick as it can be but there s no cooperation you may be able to get double pds slot adaptors but you try plugging video cards in and just watch them conflict of course the extra electronics in a nubus slot makes it appreciably more expensive so guess why apple doesn t put it in it s cheaper machines so yah pays yer money and yah takes yah choice bill wis liverpool ac uk
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re put ex syquest in centris i ve just installed a tape backup in my c lot of the issues are the same so to answer your questions in article apr cstp umkc edu kmoffatt cstp umkc edu writes my pli m syquest drive has a wire from the drive to an id switch on the outside of the case where do i connect this switch can the computer just tell with internal drives you probably want to hard wire the scsi id with shorting jumpers put it at a convenient number like you could cut a hole in the back of the machine to route the id switch but why go through the hassle you probably won t be needing to frequently change the id of your internal drive i noticed that the drive will lay over part of the motherboard i didn t look closely but i seem to recall it laying over the ram that s soldered onto the motherboard would that cause problems yeah when i first installed the tape drive i was a little concerned too but it s no problem the device is designed to fit just fine with the overhang it shouldn t reach back beyond the rom ram vram simms though one last question is there anywhere to order a faceplate cover the drive s front panel is smaller than the space left in the case the drive s panel is the same size as the spotsbm clone s cases should i just cut a hole in the plastic panel that is currently holding tmpty place you can special order parts to mount the device from your local apple dealer the relevant parts are blank bezel faceplate cd rom carrier i e generic device mounting bracket note apple s unfortunate choice of name for the slide in bracket to mount a device the service techs i talked to said oh sure we stock those of course they were thinking of the cd caddies to hold a cd disk when you stick it in the drive as far as i can tell apple does not sell a bezel faceplate already cut out for a standard device why not they advertise these machines as being able to accept any standard device in the bay why not provide the faceplate they do sell a cutout for their cd rom drive of course but that s of no use i m going to hack up the extra bezel i ordered to make a cutout for my tape drive which is a standard device good luck with your syquest fred
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help need modem info for duo jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu joel siegel writes jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu jt writes hi what alternatives to the express modem do duo owners have if they want to go at least baud every place in town says they are back ordered and part of the reason i want a laptop mac is so i can use it as a remote terminal from wherever i am but i really would hate to have to wait months to get a modem in or have to settle with baud if apple didn t put out such a good product i d gladly take my business to to the bit ataris i think the situation with the express modem is inexusable for any business i ve had mine on order since january apple finally called me last week to tell me that i should have it by the second week of may in the meantime i ve been stuck with my duo without the connectability i needed it for i m sure there are plenty of people who can bite back at me citing all sorts of reasons why apple is right or at least justified but i m just a crabby consumer and when i order a duo with modem that s the product i expect oh well it s not like it s limited to the computer biz remember when the miata came out what about those cabbage patch dolls well i want my toy kenneth simon dept of sociology indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	bit system zone a week or so ago i posted about a problem with my se i have megs or true ram yet if i set my extensions to use a large amount of memory total of all extensions then my system will crash before the finder comes up what i meant was having a large amount of fonts load or sounds or huge disk caches with a control panel other than apple s memory control panel apple s cache is at k mode is on and so is bit addressing all extensions work by themselves or with the others until i increase the memory used by some of them with methods mentioned above well here s my latest followup i ran nows system profile and got this information memory info physical ram size k logical ram size k size of low memory area k virtual memory inactive addressing mode bit mode in use bit system zone absent parity ram not capable growable system heap true temporary memory support present tempory memory support real and tracked note that bit system zone is absent could this be the problem how can i turn this on any ideas can anyone help ken
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re hongkong ku from kinau mondrian csufresno edu kin hung au date apr ku gmt organization california state university fresno ku message id c ev t g a zimmer csufresno edu newsgroups ku comp sys mac hardware ku ku in hong kong you can buy a cheap pc or based computer ku however it is very experience to buy a macintosh last winter i was ku back to hong kong i saw the price of mac classic in hong kong is same ku price to buy a lc in the u s ku ku i am not recommended to buy mac in hong kong since mac is not popular ku in hk ku ku kin hung au hello mr au i have to disagree regarding your assessment of macintosh in hong kong the mac has a sizeable share of the typesetting market as in the u s a local magazine next magazine similar to newsweek here uses the mac extensively i have seen sir speedy and other franchises in hong kong equipped with mac based systems true the discount is not as steep as here because customers in hong kong cannot buy from gray market nor are mac being sold thru mass merchandisers like apple does here with the performa lin e at this point the sale of mac is handled by one exclusive distributor on the other hand you can always get a pc clone or in the earlier days illegal clones of the apple iie your perception of the mac not being too popular in hong kong is simply because most hobbyists and users find it much cheaper to go to one of those basement stores that sell pc clones with probably illegal copies of bios than to pay for a mac similarly you cannot say lotus surely is not well accepted in hong kong because the sale is so low may be it is because of all those places in kowloon where illegal copies of lotus can be bought for and for a professional looking but illegal copies of the manuals eric choi internet eric choi p f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re specs patrickd wpi wpi edu lazer writes i d appreciate it greatly if someone could e mail me the following if you only know one that s fine specs for the esp how it compares to the pentium specs for the can fill a page book some highlights are bit address space w bit data width bit integer registers bit floating point registers k copyback capable caches way set associative typical clocks integer instruction clocks for a floating point multiply interesting aside the can multiply two bit floating point numbers in less time than it can multiply two bit integers specs for the with estimated cost release date etc more of the same but with multiple instruction dispatching figure about clocks per instruction typical my guess but the motorola guys are pretty bright it may be less i m interested in speeds systems it can run windows nt risc or whatever costs bus info register info all the technical info call motorola i m not typing it all in i am hoping that the can win yet another battle against the intel people i m predicting that both the x and x lines are reaching their ends new experimental processors have bit data pathways and can schedule up to out of instructions each clock cycle that sort of trick can t really be done with cisc architectures i finally saw some details on the pentium and was not greatly impressed they ve finally done some work on the fpu to get it up to speed but otherwise it s only going to be a x speedup and to get that they re using two integer units larger caches and a branch target buffer yes i know they re talking about mhz processors big whoop designing a mhz board is difficult and really expensive priced ns memory chips lately ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare dhk ubbpc uucp dave kitabjian writes i m sure intel and motorola are competing neck and neck for crunch power but for a given clock speed how do we rank the following from st to th while you re at it where will the following fit into the list pentium powerpc fastest then pentium with the first versions of the powerpc somewhere in the vicinity and about clock speed does doubling the clock speed double the overall processor speed and fill in the s below mhz mhz no computer speed is only partly dependent of processor clock speed memory system speed play a large role as does video system speed and i o speed as processor clock rates go up the speed of the memory system becomes the greatest factor in the overall system speed if you have a mhz processor it can be reading another word from memory every ns sure you can put all ns memory in your computer but it will cost times as much as the slower ns simms and roughly the is twice as fast at a given clock speed as is the ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pds vs nubus was re lc iii nubus capable in article c mqk f liverpool ac uk wis liverpool ac uk mr w i sellers writes bill higgins beam jockey higgins fnalf fnal gov wrote in article c kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot the lc family of macs can only use pds cards they are not able to use nubus ah but why can some technically hip macslinger tell us what the difference is between pds and nubus is it impossible to make a gadget that plugs into pds and ends in a nubus card cage at least marvin s friend has not been able to locate one and neither have i what is the fundamental reason for this i think that there do exist nubus expansion cages i m sure i ve seen them advertised occassionally but i think that the main problem is that they cost much more than the difference in price between say a lc and iivx so unless you need lots of nubus slots its not worth the bother of course it may be that these extra boxes are so expensive because no one buys them because they are so expensive nubus technology isn t a special apple proprietry thing i have this sneaky feeling that it is licensed from texas instruments so there is no problem building an expansion box apple uses the ieee nubus standard for their bit backplane bus i got this from a technote that i reada couple of weeks ago other stuff deleted hope this helps bret chase internet bchase wpi wpi edu macintosh bellnet smile it won t kill you snailnet wpi box institute rd worcester ma
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerators for se the is a week backorder but they are shipping the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac iisi power limitations readers i own a mac iisi and am considering upgrades cards hard drive etc can you tell me what the power limitations are for the pds slot and the hard drive power feed secondly can you tell me if there is a separate limit for each or if instead there is a single limit for both combined please drop me a line if you know the answers to these questions thanks felix lin feilimau leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	screen death mac plus i have a very old mac k and a mac plus both of which have the same problem their screens blank out sometimes after a minor physical jolt such as inserting a floppy in the internal drive sometimes all by themselves computer left to itself just goes blank i have replaced the wires connecting the logic boards and the video board because it seemed at first that jiggling the wires made the screen come back on this worked for a while but the blanking out has returned can i do anything do i need a new power supply a new crt a new computer thanks for any advice ethan bodin tufts university ebodin pearl tufts edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help e mail address of caere corporation i m looking for the e mail address of the caere corporation their address is caere corporation cooper court los gatos califonia if you know the address o have access to find it please could you send it to me my e mail address is zia uk ac ed castle thanking you in advance zia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	reseting lw iig to factory defaults i have a laserwriter iig that has disappeared completely from the network i e it s name doesn t show up in any zone you can print to it from it s serial interface tho i have seen some discussion here about changing the zone a iig is in including some ps code that lets you change the zone is there maybe some ps code you can use to have it go back to all its factory default settings i have a feeling that s what needed to heal ours jurgen botz jbotz mtholyoke edu vending machines should respond to a finger south hadley ma usa request with a list of all items currently unix is dead long live unix available for purchase rfc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	non apple mini docks available my boss is considering the purchase of a powerbook or duo he is leaning towards a because of the math coprocessor for mathematica but would get a duo if he could find a mini dock with a coprocessor have any third parties announced such a beast alan a deguzman genius is never understood in it s own time calculus mathematica disclaimer the university calvin to hobbes from can t afford my opinions the indispensible calvin and hobbes
comp.sys.mac.hardware	my iicx won t turn on anyone know what would cause my iicx to not turn on when i hit the keyboard switch the one in the back of the machine doesn t work either the only way i can turn it on is to unplug the machine for a few minutes then plug it back in and hit the power switch in the back immediately sometimes this doesn t even work for a long time i remember hearing about this problem a long time ago and that a logic board failure was mentioned as the source of the problem is this true thanks t j pilon pilon rpi edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	upgrading pb memory i have one of the original powerbook s with mb of ram and find that mb is a drag when trying to do my work so what is the best way to get the maximum ram for this unit and what s it going to cost me i m hoping i can get the latest and best info from real users by posting to this group thanks in advance bill
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help how to test simms ytwu magnus acs ohio state edu yih tyng wu writes hello i just got some simms at least one of which does not work i don t know if there is a software that can test simms thoroughly or i could just rely on the ram test performed by my computer during the start up when i installed a dead simm into an lc or an lc ii there would be a strange music and no display on the screen why i need your help thanks in advance yih tyng ytwu magnus acs ohio state edu there is a shareware ramchecker that i think is called ramcheck it is available at most ftp sites such as umich and sumex terry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris math coprocessor option sorry if this is a faq i don t normally read comp sys mac hardware i am purchasing a couple of centris s i configured the systems as follows eight mb ram ethernet mb vram math coprocessor option my purchasing agent told me about the math coprocessor option and sent me the apple summary documentation to prove it i ordered the coprocessor option but i m really not sure that we needed it i thought the chip had a math coprocessor built into it has apple had a math coprocessor chip architectured to keep up with the speed of the chip in the centris i am concerned that i may have set up a hardware bottleneck please send your responses to david anthony guevara cup portal com i will summarize if there is enough interest thanks david guevara internet david anthony guevara cup portal com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re can i put a floppy in an se ericr solbourne com eric robison writes i ve got a mac se i ve got a spare mb floppy drive i ve seen se s ith a floppy drive can i put my floppy drive into my se and get it to ork if so how thanks eric eric robison disclaimer i claim dis ericr solbourne com get me offa this planet sure thing you ll have to get an fdhd upgrade kit from apple which includes a hd floppy drive different chips the swim chip was mentioned in another post and a different floppy drive cable get the apple kit through your dealer jim trascapoulos jtrascap nyx du edu what size id do you wear
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re specs in article rayc myqo o netcom com ray netcom com ray fischer writes patrickd wpi wpi edu lazer writes i d appreciate it greatly if someone could e mail me the following if you only know one that s fine stuff deleted have you tried the library since you go to wpi so do i go to ak and look on the first floor a professor has posted an ieee i believe spec sheet on the which is around pages long i m sure the library has the info you request it s just a matter of finding it hope this helps bret chase internet bchase wpi wpi edu macintosh bellnet smile it won t kill you snailnet wpi box institute rd worcester ma
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re my iicx won t turn on i ve changed the battery in the thing shortly after the problem first happened and i ve noticed an inordinate number of bus errors lately t j pilon pilon rpi edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	summary zyxel strings i write i recently got a zyxel u e modem it s great but i m still having some problems figuring out what strings to use in what applications i basically need strings for z term firstclass client and telefinder client i ve been able to get firstclass and z term working by using another modem s settings in firstclass and copying them for z term however it still has problems z term for example will list error the first time i try dialing after starting the problem if i cancel and try again it works fine telefinder is even worse i can t get it to even wake up the modem so if anyone uses a zyxel for any of these programs i d greatly appreciate you sending me the setup strings you use thanks in advance yoshio cs ucla edu writes for zterm i initially did the following atz at d at w then i set my init string to atz that s it rsmith pearl tufts edu rod smith writes i can t help you with firstclass or telefinder but i ve been using zterm and a zyxel for close to two weeks now here s what i did once in zterm set hardware handshaking on and the bps rate to you ve probably already done this then i typed at d at w the first line sets the modem to ignore the dtr line necessary for hardware handshaking with most though not all mac hardware handshaking cables the second stores this setting in non volatile memory in the modem so it s the default when the modem starts in the modem preferences dialog i have the modem initialization string set to at z m which just insures that the stored setting is used useful if starting zterm after using something like the fax software or macwoof which change the settings in other ways alternatively you could leave the factory default the way it is and just set the zterm initialization string to at d m which would accomplish the same thing if the modem is always on before you start zterm and if other programs don t modify the settings or at z d m would work even if other programs modify the modem s settings i do it the way i do because i sometimes forget to turn on the modem before launching zterm and this way i m assured of having the correct dtr handling when the modem s powered up after comparing the above strings with my at commands reference guide i came up with atz l n x d s m this is entered in the initialize box on the modem preferences in zterm quick summary of each commmand z reset modem to user profile l speaker volume at fairly quiet n ring volume at fairly quiet x display connect info according to setting see manual d assume dtr computer is always on s dial speed at as fast as zyxel can handle in firstclass i used this same string with the addition of s right before the s command in the setup box this disables the auto answer function of the modem for firstclass i based my modem setting on the supra fax and just changed the above mentioned string in telefinder i based my setting on the zoom v hh setting i changed the modem initialization string to the same one i used for firstclass and everything seems to work fine sorry it took so long to get this summary out if someone wants to forward this to the info mac reports directory at sumex aim it might save other newbie zyxel users like myself the trouble of setting up their strings and also save the net some redundant messages if anyone else has something to add feel free marcus mlobbia ucsd edu marcus lobbia mlobbia sdcc ucsd edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how often are simms bad mail order hi everyone just the other day i ordered a vram chip for my new lciii from mac connection they sent it overnight very nice and i got it installed and we found that it didn t work properly when you put the computer in thousands mode the bottom of the screen using the new chip is all flickering and fuzzy so i called them up and i m going to return it for a new one my question is how often does such a thing happen with simm chips in general do you often find when ordering chips that a large portion are bad is this a rarity this is the first chip i ve ordered so i have no other experience in this area i m just curious if anyone else has had the same type of experience that s about it please email me and if people want i can post a summary thanks all hillel sims simsh rpi edu rensselaer polytechnic institute is rot rotated forward or backward anonymous
comp.sys.mac.hardware	tcp ip routing localtalk ethernet here is the story i have a network with macs on localtalk one of them has an ethernet card and is currently connected to a next don t laugh i got it for the price of a mac iisi the next is connected to the internet over slip running on a baud modem currently we can telnet from the mac w ethernet to the next and then telnet out again to the rest of the world what we want to know is if there is some sort of hardware that will route telnet sessions from the localtalk macs to the next via the ethernet mac from what we have heard air doesn t do the trick software solutions would be good too but my impression is that there aren t going to be any our immediate interest is to be able to get to the next and telnet out again the slip connection doesn t allow us to assign ip numbers to machines so everyone shares that number oh well thanks in advance benjamin s chuang itd css consultant university of michigan a benjamin chuang um cc umich edu consulting referals here bchuang css itd umich edu unix and long messages here
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how to boot from ext hd on power on i have an external hard drive i wish to use as startup disk problem is when i switch on the mac it boots on the internal hd but when i restart warm boot the mac it boots from the external how do i make it boot directly from the external please email replies if possible thanks in advance jerry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	simm re use nubus board anyone seen one hello i remember running across an ad in the back of mac user world a few years ago for a nubus board that had umpteen simm slots to be used to recycle your old simms when you upgraded memory i don t remember who made this board and i haven t seen it advertised in any of the latest mac magazines it mentioned that it included software to make the simms on the board act like a ram disk as someone who has simms he can t get rid of use but hates the waste this sounds to me like a majorly good idea does anyone out there know what board company i m talking about are they still in business or does anyone know where i can get a used one if they are no longer made any help would be greatly appreciated please e mail me to save net bandwidth thanks cap internet cptnerd digex com aol cptnerd compuserve consilio manuque otium cum dignitate credo quia absurdum est parturient montes nascetur ridiculus mus
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac iisi cache options readers i have found that the cache upgrade options for the mac iisi include the following ae quicksilver daystar fastcache iisi daystar combocache iisi logicache iisi k cache i d be interested in hearing opinions on any or all of these options the other alternative is to upgrade to a cpu accelerator such as the logicache mhz ideas comparisions felix lin feilimau leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iivx c upgrade question in article jas apr tigger isi edu jas isi edu jeff sullivan writes if you get teh iivx c upgrade does it include a new sticker to cover the iivx identifier with a centris indetifier i can t say for sure with the iivx c upgrade but i wondered the same thing when i ordered my lc lc iii upgrade turns out the upgrade is actually an entire cpu minus any disk drives you pull the floppy and hard drives out of the old one stick them in the new one and you ve got an lc iii the iivx c may be the same thing it might be something to look into for those people who are unhappy that apple only sells macs pre packaged with the drives of course the price is quite a bit higher without the trade in brian cherkaue ee rochester edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	color inks for stylewriter i know that jet inc makes refills for the stylewriter and deskwriter ink jet cartridges in several colors but are pre filled cartridges in color available from anyone or do i have to use up one cartridge before i have a chance to print in color also are inks in process colors cyan magenta yellow available to refill cartridges thanks in advance
comp.sys.mac.hardware	why does apple give us a confusing message hi there does anyone know why apple has an ambiguous message for c regarding fpu in all mac price lists i ve seen every c has the message fpu optional i know from what we ve discussed in this newsgroup that all c have the fpu built in except the configuration why would they be so unclear about this issue in their price list i m planning to buy the c cd pretty soon but i m now getting confused with whether it comes with fpu or not why say optional if it s built in please anybody help me understand this game regards thian
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sony s problems info please anyone out there have a sony s i have one and it s very nice however if i run it in mode the picture won t go very big i end up with about gap either side and top bottom i suspect an internal adjustment would fix this anyone tried it another problem is sub brightness areas that are meant to be black or off the main raster are not very black the real raster is quite visible when the screen is blanked this is not too severe but it is just not as good as other trini screens i have used if i turn the brightness contrast down so that the raster is not visible the real image virtually disappears the raster size is just right if i use but dpi is a bit too much oh and i am using a rasterops xli card thanks marcus bointon marcus meridian demon co uk marcus bointon tel marcus meridian demon co uk fax i used windows for a week once but i feel better now
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re fax modem for the mac in article c llpo in news cis umn edu mbuntan staff tc umn edu writes hi all thanks to you all who have responded to my request for info on various kinds of fax modem i d like to ask a few more questions what are the advantages of buying a global village teleport gold over other cheaper brands like supra zoom etc i heard that both supra and zoom use the same software why are there so many complaints about the incompatibility problems of supra what kind of incompatibility is it if i decided to buy the teleport gold is there any possibility to add a voice option in the near future has anyone heard of a possible voice option that supra will offer this coming summer a person did mention a new at t modem is it getting good reviews from various mac magazines if i want the best fastest most economically sound and possible voice option what fax modem should i buy sorry for posting so many questions but i think they re necessary i promise to repost any answers if they re not already posted by a responder thanks so much in advance regards thian since i repost this message again for the second time i hope to hear from some folks on this topic please reply regards thian
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris video problem i m having it also from push media mit edu pushpinder singh subject re centris video problem i m having it also date sat apr gmt when the computer is set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through a window horizontal white lines appear on the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate as the operation is continued if a window is moved over the involved area of the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area of the screen this problem is not observed if the monitor is configured for colors or a inch apple monitor with colors is used i suspect a bad video ram chip but cannot be certain the problem has been apparent since day but has gotten worse i m having exactly the same problem again it s fine when i switch to colors or a smaller monitor my configuration is model centris with mb hd vram no cards monitor mag mx f with monitor adaptor for resolution of i just discovered the problem a little while ago after plugging in my new mag monitor it seems to appear either when scrolling through a window or when using alpha or word and i enter return my guess is bad vrams as well i really hope it isn t a design flaw is anyone at apple listening pushpinder singh push media mit edu try finding an init called basic color monitor this should clear up some probs with centris s and vga type monitors i know it exists somewhere i have a binhexed copy but i don t know where and never got around to installing it i have this problem on my sony a
comp.sys.mac.hardware	x x how do they compare i believe it goes or will go powerpc pentium in a resent article in one of the macmags i think a mhz accelerator was slightly slower than a mhz accel but this is using a system designed for the so it stands to reason that a system designed for an ie quadra would do better so overall i d figure or so along the same lines the new powerpc stuff is supposed to run the system at the level of a fast quadra but system or whatever will allow times the speed of a in the powerpc based systems and wait for the i think it laps the pentium pro life pro women michael ameres internet michael ameres f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need help installing a simms in quick could someone please send instructions for installing simms and vram to jmk po cwru edu he s just gotten his and wants to drop in some extra simms and vram that he has for it thanks and don t reply to me reply to jmk po cwru edu joe
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re upgrading pb memory in article apr ncar ucar edu bill lhotse hao ucar edu bill roberts wrote i have one of the original powerbook s with mb of ram and find that mb is a drag when trying to do my work so what is the best way to get the maximum ram for this unit and what s it going to cost me i m hoping i can get the latest and best info from real users by posting to this group well bill there are mb soldered on the logic board and mb in the ram expansion slot giving you mb the only thing you can do to upgrade to the maximum ram is to remove the mb expansion and install a mb expansion giving you a total of mb which is the max on a you can try calling techworks or any other memory vendors out of macweek macworld etc peter haase internet haase meediv lanl gov network manager los alamos national laboratory
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re computer engr vs computer science a professor of mine once said the difference between a computer engineer and a computer scientist is about meaning the engineer makes more than the cs seriously though the main difference is that most cs people write programs that people will use i e database graphics word processors etc while an engineer writes for machines or control systems i e the computer in your car a flight control system computer controled devices etc in other words cs writes software while cse writes firmware these are generalizations but for the most part that is what the difference is p s the is not just a joke scott for the most part this is a bunch of bunk i ve got a computer engineering degree yet i ve spent the last years writing software that people actually use moreover the salary distinctions are incorrect i received job offers upon graduation the two jobs that actually used my hardware experience were year lower my advice is to decide which classes and projects most interest you and pick the major that allows you to take them emt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris video problem i m having it also i also suffer from these video artefacts my configuration is a centris mb vram with a nec fg it only happens at x in bit colour with virtual memory off during scrolling this occurs when the vram simms are installed as well as removed it seems that the does not like x does anyone not have these problems in the above mentioned conditions gersham meharg sfu canada gersham meharg meharg sfu ca sfu vancouver canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re high resolution adc for mac ii in article b clark elvex acns nwu edu b clark nwu edu brian clark wrote i don t know about the instrutech boards though i plan to check them out but you need to be very careful checking the monotonicity and s n ratio of many of the bit boards out there the ni boards are very clearly specified in terms of monotonicity s n ratio accuracy etc and the nb a and nb a have all the dyynamic range and freedom from distortion that you d expect from a good true bit converter this is not true for the spectral innovations boards for example to boorishly reply to myself i found i did have the instrutech information already the specs to use the term loosely are as follows a d bit converter with bit accuracy to khz bit accuracy to khz no specs for s n monotonicity linearity there are multiplexed inputs sharing the single a d so that all inputs are not samples at the same time and in the above conversion specs the all channel sample rate must be used thus for two channels you only have unknown quality bits at khz per channel this is poorer quality than the national instruments at the same sample rate d a bit converter no specs for s n monotonicity linearity each of the output channels has its own converter the price for the external converter box the itc the nubus interface board the mac plus c driver software and igor xop s is rather steep
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wrong ram in duo a few posts back somebody mentioned that the duo might crash if it has the wrong kind non self refreshing of ram in it my duo crashes sometimes after sleep and i am wondering if there is any software which will tell me whether or not i have the right kind of ram installed i had thought that the problem was the battery connection thanks in advance archon fung
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can you share one monitor w cpus i have a centris want to get an ibm machine as well to save space on my desk i would like to use one monitor for both with a switch box does anyone know of a way to do this
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris video problem i m having it also from push media mit edu pushpinder singh subject re centris video problem i m having it also date sat apr gmt when the computer is set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through a window horizontal white lines appear on the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate as the operation is continued if a window is moved over the involved area of the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area of the screen this problem is not observed if the monitor is configured for colors or a inch apple monitor with colors is used i suspect a bad video ram chip but cannot be certain the problem has been apparent since day but has gotten worse etc has anyone not had these problems in the given configurations that would help eliminate design flaw as the explanation
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare in article bd c a zeus ieee org michael ameres f n z fidonet org michael ameres writes i believe it goes or will go powerpc pentium i think this kind of comparison is pretty useless in general the processor is only good when a good computer is designed around it adn the computer is used in its designed purpose comparing processor speed is pretty dumb because all you have to do is just increase the clock speed to increase speed among other things i mean how can you say a is faster than a without giving is operational conditions can you say the same when you are running a program that uses a lot of transidental functions knowing that does not have transidental functions building in to its fpu and does can you say that is still faster anyway i hope people do not decided upon wether a computers is good or not solely on its processor or how fast a processor is based on its name because one can alway do a certain things to a processor to speed it up but if we restrict our arguements to for example pure processor architectural issues or how one processor will work well and another will not based on its design then we can get somewhere with our discussions chung yang in a resent article in one of the macmags i think a mhz accelerator was slightly slower than a mhz accel but this is using a system designed for the so it stands to reason that a system designed for an ie quadra would do better so overall i d figure or so along the same lines the new powerpc stuff is supposed to run the system at the level of a fast quadra but system or whatever will allow times the speed of a in the powerpc based systems and wait for the i think it laps the pentium pro life pro women michael ameres internet michael ameres f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare dhk ubbpc uucp dave kitabjian writes i m sure intel and motorola are competing neck and neck for crunch power but for a given clock speed how do we rank the following from st to th not a good idea to compare processor power doesn t make sense for real world applications at least not for totally different lines of processors while you re at it where will the following fit into the list pentium powerpc and about clock speed does doubling the clock speed double the overall processor speed and fill in the s below mhz mhz at least for x systems doubling the clock speed increases performance by about thanks very much i d appreciate hearing any further explanations from any experienced folks out there too p s folks have been having trouble replying to me lately with the reply command try typing my address by hand and it should work thanks dave kitabjian kit ahb jyin vital statistics stuff deleted ravikumar venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu a pun is a no blessed form of whit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare michael ameres f n z fidonet org michael ameres writes i believe it goes or will go powerpc pentium not quite mhz pentium specint specfp mhz mc specint specfp note that specint is more important for most real world applications as far as the dx goes specint specfp in a resent article in one of the macmags i think a mhz accelerator was slightly slower than a mhz accel but this is using a system designed for the so it stands to reason that a system designed for an ie quadra would do better so overall i d figure or so along the same lines the new powerpc stuff is supposed to run the system at the level of a fast quadra but system or whatever will allow times the speed of a in the powerpc based systems and wait for the i think it laps the pentium intel chips have traditionally been faster than their motorola equivalents although the significance of chip speed in real world application performance is something that is highly debatable pro life pro women michael ameres internet michael ameres f n z fidonet org ravikumar venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu a pun is a no blessed form of whit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare ray netcom com ray fischer writes dhk ubbpc uucp dave kitabjian writes i m sure intel and motorola are competing neck and neck for crunch power but for a given clock speed how do we rank the following from st to th how about some numbers here some kind of benchmark if you want let me start it dx specint specfp while you re at it where will the following fit into the list pentium powerpc fastest then pentium with the first versions of the powerpc somewhere in the vicinity numbers pentium mhz specint specfp powerpc mhz specint specfp note this is the alpha mhz specint specfp just for comparison and about clock speed does doubling the clock speed double the overall processor speed and fill in the s below mhz mhz no computer speed is only partly dependent of processor clock speed memory system speed play a large role as does video system speed and i o speed as processor clock rates go up the speed of the memory system becomes the greatest factor in the overall system speed if you have a mhz processor it can be reading another word from memory every ns sure you can put all ns memory in your computer but it will cost times as much as the slower ns simms not in a clock doubled system there isn t a doubling in performance but it is quite significant maybe about a increase in performance besides for wait state performance you d need a cache anyway i mean who uses a processor that runs at the speed of ns simms note that this memory speed corresponds to a clock speed of mhz and roughly the is twice as fast at a given clock speed as is the numbers ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche ravikumar venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu a pun is a no blessed form of whit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re computer engr vs computer science in article tecot xenon stanford edu tecot xenon stanford edu edward m tecot writes a professor of mine once said the difference between a computer engineer and a computer scientist is about meaning the engineer makes more than p s the is not just a joke scott for the most part this is a bunch of bunk i ve got a computer engineering degree yet i ve spent the last years writing software that people actually use moreover the salary distinctions are incorrect i received job offers upon graduation the two jobs that actually used my hardware experience were year lower my advice is to decide which classes and projects most interest you and pick the major that allows you to take them emt well here is my worth advice from a grad student i agree with the gentlemen who wrote the comment before me the important thing is pick what ever interest you the most and learn as much as possible about it in my five years of education in this field though brief compare to alot of people i had to think about this kind of question a lot did i make the right decision in going into electrical engineering as opposed to computer engineering or cs the more i go thru school the more i believe that this kind of question is irrelevant i have come to believe that choosing cs because one does not like hardware or choosing hardware because one does not like to program is really doing an injustice of building and computer and making it useful for something everything is interwoven and inseparable cs ce and ee are all a part of a really great discipline and do depend on each other my advice is don t limit yourself but make a decision based on which major will give you the best opportunities to learn that of course depends on the curriculum at your persective school i would choose a major that allows me to explore as much as possible beside i don t know why the school would make a student choose a major before her his sophamore year hey you may be so interested in this field that you decided to learn all about the making of computers in which case you suffer a little more and go to grad school about the money don t look at the averages if you are good you are going to earn more money than anyone else if you are a superstar programmer you will earn millions like wise if you are a hotshot computer designers chung yang
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra memory install faq this is turning into a faq here is how to violate your quadra warranty and install your own memory insert usual disclaimer here remove the top lid of the machine you will see the floppy disk and hard drive mounted in a plastic tower follow the usual anti static precautions and of course make sure the machine is off when you do this unplug the wall and monitor power supply cords from the back of the mac remove the power supply by pulling the plastic interlocking tab on the tower forward and simultaneously pulling the power supply straight up the tab is a piece of plastic from the left posterior aspect of the tower which extends downward to hook on to the power supply you may also feel a horseshoe shaped piece at the right portion of the power supply leave that alone the plastic tab from the tower is all you need release look at the rear of the tower assembly you will see the flat ribbon scsi connector to the hard drive a power cable and a flat ribbon cable leading to the floppy drive disconnect all these from the motherboard the hard drive power cable connector has a tab which must be squeezed to release it unplug the drive activity led from its clear plastic mount look down the posterior cylindrical section of the plastic tower a phillips head screw is at the base remove it taking care not to drop it into the case a bit of gummy glue on your screwdriver is helpful here remove the tower assembly by pulling medially the plastic tab on the right side of the tower this tab prevents the tower from sliding posteriorly slide the entire tower assembly cm posteriorly then lift the tower assembly straight up and out of the case congratulations you have now gained access to your machine s simm slots the six big slots are for vram one usually must install all six to gain useful video modes all simms ram or vram installed with their chips facing the front of the motherboard the four smaller sockets in front are for ram simms install simms in sets of four into these sockets be sure you seat the simms squarely and firmly into a fully upright position reinstall the tower assembly by first placing the right wall of the tower against the right wall of the case with the tower assembly about cm posterior of its intended position lower the tower assembly into place while maintaining contact with the right wall of the case once fully down slide the tower assembly anteriorly until it clicks into place reconnect the motherboard ends of the cables dont t forget the floppy drive cable replace the phillips head screw drop the power supply straight down into place until it clicks in plug the hard drive activity light back into its clear plastic mount guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help duo problems bcherkas netcom com brian cherkas writes chess cats ucsc edu brian vantuyl chess writes i just got a duo and i m having some difficulties if the machine is plugged in to the wall adapter put to sleep unplugged from the wall and woken up it crashes of the time there s nothing but the original system software on the machine the battery has plenty of life i think this must be a power manager problem but i don t know what to do about it also the speaker occasionally makes a high pitched hiss the noise is irregular but seems to favor sleep and restart commands i ve had my duo for a few weeks now and suffer from both of the above problems i reinstalled my system software twice in an effort to combat the problems thinking they were system software problems initially reinstalling the system seemed to help but not anymore occasionally when i try to wake up the duo i get a solid screen of horizontal lines on the screen it freezes i also get the high pitched hiss occasionally but only at startup i ve called the apple hotline sos appl three times already and finally they agreed something is astray after my duo s screen would go dim and the hard drive spun down by itselft and put itself to sleep this problem only occured twice apple sent me a box to ship my duo to be looked at in new york but the problem now is intermittent and i can t afford to be without my duo at this time anyone out there with these same problems brian cherkas bcherkas netcom com i aol brianc compuserve netcom online communication services san jose ca yes quite a number of people it seems from discussions i ve had me included i bought my machine a couple of weeks ago as well and started to experience these problems apple australia via my dealer said that this problem has a number of potential causes faulty applications faulty third party hardware modems memory etc system software pram corruption and power manager corruption and the duo hardware itself none of the above are relevant in my case except the last two maybe no applications were running the system software was re installed i have no additional hardware i have found that clearing pram appears to help for a while at least hold down command option p and r on startup unfortunately the problem returns suggesting that pram is being corrupted by something system software bug i don t have any non issue inits in my system apparently the power manager can be reset by holding the reset and interrupt buttons while powering up apple s advice but since the duo does not have an interrupt button i m not sure what they mean in this case this may also help if someone can decipher apple s advice for me beyond this apple suggest that you should follow the technical procedures to check the hardware of this duo since so many others appear to be having the same problem it would seem to me that there has been a system software bug introduced somewhere along the line and quite recently too since it only seems to be recent duo purchasers who have this problem any more comments from others in the same boat are welcome particularly apple duo engineers cheers brucet bruce tulloch sydney australia brucet extro ucc su oz au complex problems have straight forward easy to understand wrong answers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pixel disappear on powerbook screen some pixels on my pb display disappear intermittently they are not in a particular place but random if anybody has suggestions i would appreciate e mailings thanks aris psssun pss msu edu beware of the s o o nnnnn u nnnnn
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare in c npy li news cso uiuc edu rvenkate ux cso uiuc edu ravikuma venkateswar writes not quite mhz pentium specint specfp mhz mc specint specfp but the interesting comparision is how fast clock cycle chips you can get an alpha is way slow at mhz but blazes at mhz as far as the dx goes specint specfp but the is or will soon be available in mhz version making it comparable to a dx intel chips have traditionally been faster than their motorola equivalents although the significance of chip speed in real world application performance is something that is highly debatable i think you have that one turned around they have faster clock cycles but less power behind each cycle not to mention that the intel instruction stream is byte oriented longest intel instruction is bytes what an odd number which makes it hard to do any intelligent memory subsystem cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe this article printed on recycled electrons
comp.sys.mac.hardware	attn c and duo owners be very careful when you plug in a external monitor and a external speaker make sure that all the power cords are in the same strip if you don t you take a chance of having a very bad audio buzz this is caused be a ground loop and the only way of getting rid of this loud buzz is to make sure that you have a common ground make sure that all the power cords are going in to the same strip or off the same outlet this will assure you of a common ground tim keanini sound designer timk broder com broderbund software blast crl com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	increasing the number of serial ports does anyone know if there are any devices available for the mac which will increase the number of serial ports available for use simultaneously i would like to connect up to serial devices to my mac for an application i am working on i must be able to access each one of the independently if such a device exists are there are any limits to the number of serial devices i can use any information is appreciated steven langlois slang bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sound recording for mac portable does anyone know what hardware is required and where i could find it for sound recording on the mac portable thanks david hughes aa freenet carleton ca secretary national capital freenet ve tkp
comp.sys.mac.hardware	asante en sc hangs scsi devices i just hooked up my mac iisi to a relatively old year asante en sc adapter the base t connection works like a charm i installed the newest drivers from asante s ftp server the problem begins when i attach one more device to the scsi chain specifically a mb drive i power up the drive then the mac the mac tests memory etc just before the happy mac face normally shows up the power light on the en sc goes out and the boot process stops so i can use the network or the external drive but not both at once this makes the asante box pretty much unusable it doesn t look like a purely electrical scsi problem because if i turn on the drive just a second or so too late so that it doesn t get noticed during the initial scsi polling the mac boots normally and the adapter works even though the hard disk is powered on and connected the mac has never once failed to boot from its internal drive up to now and i ve had it for over a year here is what i tried changing the scsi id s of the en sc and the disk several permutations changing the order of devices i e the en sc at the head or tail of the chain overterminating with an external terminator both devices have internal ones underterminating i e removing internal resistors from the hard disk trying another en sc box trying another identical drive trying several different scsi cables has anybody seen this more importantly does anyone have a solution thanks a lot e eric behr illinois state university mathematics department behr math ilstu edu or behr ilstu bitnet please avoid
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re increasing the number of serial ports slang bnr ca steven langlois writes does anyone know if there are any devices available for the mac which will increase the number of serial ports available for use simultaneously i would like to connect up to serial devices to my mac for an application i am working on i must be able to access each one of the independently applied engineering makes a nubus card called the quadralink which is a board that contains serial ports which i believe can be used simultaneously i m not a user of one of these but i have installed a couple for people at work i m a technician hope this helps aaron swiers control data corporation arden hills mn swiers chaos aqeng cdc com electrical engineering student u of nd swiers plains nodak edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re educational pricing gray market eu apple does not authorise sales through mail order as a result mail eu order companies have to obtain their machines by the grey market eu eu this market is supplied with machines from authorised resellers who eu have more machines than they can sell they come into this state of eu affairs by overordering either accidentally or deliberatly to get a eu better wholsale price from apple in either case they often obscure eu the serial nunber to protect their identity as a result the warranty eu is void i have ordered several macs from different mail order companies with absolutely zero problem you have to dig around to find the true gray market dealers that sell macs with authentic serial numbers untouched there are value added dealers nothing to do with vat no flame please that are very legitimate cda unfortunately is one of those that replace the serial number with their own to prevent apple from tracing which authorized dealer sold that machine to cda eric choi internet eric choi p f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re how often are simms bad mail order hi i got a glimpse from the other side talking to the technician at the place i recently bought my mac from the guy told me that they stopped shipping simms to their customers and only install them themselves those babies get zapped too easily by static electricity or so they claim hsk sie singen das alte entsagungslied das eiapopeia vom himmel womit man beruhigt wenn es greint das volk den grossen luemmel ein neues lied ein besseres lied oh freunde will ich euch dichten wir wollen hier auf erden schon das himmelreich errichten h heine
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare in article c nq c llp news cso uiuc edu rvenkate ux cso uiuc edu ravikuma venkateswar writes stuff deleted besides for wait state performance you d need a cache anyway i mean who uses a processor that runs at the speed of ns simms note that this memory speed corresponds to a clock speed of mhz more stuff deleted how do you calculate that figure i d assume even in personal computers the board designers would use bank switching to optimistically quadruple the access speed or am i missing something here hsk sie singen das alte entsagungslied das eiapopeia vom himmel womit man beruhigt wenn es greint das volk den grossen luemmel ein neues lied ein besseres lied oh freunde will ich euch dichten wir wollen hier auf erden schon das himmelreich errichten h heine
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re macs suck buy a pc tests suck post a real message
comp.sys.mac.hardware	has anyone had problems with ibm drives in their machines hi the subject line says it all my system acts weird at times all of a sudden the system will be corrupt boot blocks will get chewed etc this was a really big problem for a while i couldn t even format my drive properly i installed hdt s driver and things got better now all i have to do is reinstall the system could an incompatibility exist between it and a quantum external drive i m looking for a pure hardware solution it s not a virus bad software etc could i have a bad scsi cable or is the ibm wds just a screwey drive thanks chuck chuck williams cs intern pacific northwest laboratories da cleveland freenet edu cg williams ccmail pnl gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare skok itwds energietechnik uni stuttgart de holger skok writes in article c nq c llp news cso uiuc edu rvenkate ux cso uiuc edu ravikuma venkateswar writes stuff deleted besides for wait state performance you d need a cache anyway i mean who uses a processor that runs at the speed of ns simms note that this memory speed corresponds to a clock speed of mhz more stuff deleted how do you calculate that figure i d assume even in personal computers the board designers would use bank switching to optimistically quadruple the access speed or am i missing something here the previous article referred to the fact that you could only use ns simms in a mhz machine but that you could use ns simms in slower machines i just pointed out that if you could only use ns simms in a mhz machine you can t use ns simms in anything faster than a mhz machine bank switching and caches were not considered in either example although both would help memory access hsk ravikumar venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu a pun is a no blessed form of whit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why does apple give us a confusing message in article c ngii bgx news cis umn edu bunt student tc umn edu monthian buntan writes hi there does anyone know why apple has an ambiguous message for c regarding fpu in all mac price lists i ve seen every c has the message fpu optional i know from what we ve discussed in this newsgroup that all c have the fpu built in except the configuration why would they be so unclear about this issue in their price list i m planning to buy the c cd pretty soon but i m now getting confused with whether it comes with fpu or not why say optional if it s built in please anybody help me understand this game regards thian if you get the centris with cd configuration you are getting a mac with a rc processor that has built in math coprocessor support my understanding is that the optional fpu refers to your option of purchasing the centris without fpu or one of the other configurations with fpu apple does not offer an upgrade from the non fpu system to become an fpu system and it is unclear whether the processor on the non fpu system a lc can be replaced with a rc supplied by another vendor apple did send a memo out at one point sating that the centris which only comes with a non fpu lc processor cannot be upgraded to support an fpu the pin configurations of the two chips apparently do not match so you cannot swap one for another again according to apple s memo hope that helps kevin lohman university book store university of washington buyer for the uw apple computers for education program
comp.sys.mac.hardware	diy phonenet midi adapt macrecorder i remember seeing complete instructions for making phonenet adapters midi adapters and a macrecorder lookalike after a short search through mac archive and info mac i failed to see any of the above any pointers petri aukia hut fi supreme court ruling bolo is an illegal drug peba hut computer programmer steals minds of youths through new tank game pa telephone standards rethought because of new addictive computer game
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ghost on apple color user insane in article bettsc nq uu netcom com betts netcom com jonathan betts writes dear netters my sister has an apple color display hooked up to an lc problem there is an annoying horizontal ghost like stripe that precesses vertically about once per second it is about cm high she is in grave danger of going insane because of it any ideas of what it might be and how i might cure it for her joe betts betts netcom com ps if i pick up the display i thought it might be rfi from the lc it seems to get worse this can be caused by two one of two things the first and easiest to fix is interference from something around the monitor such as another monitor or other electrical device try moving the system to another location to fix that problem second because of the scan rate of the monitor it tends to synchronize with room lights and can cause the interference you are seeing try turning off all lights in the room s around the system and see if that helps if not try moving the system somewhere else a third solution would be to get a apple color display it should not have the same problem the color is more suceptible to you can try calling apple s new support number in the u s at sos apple this number is for anyone who has questions regarding macintosh setup and compatibility and just went into effect for this extended support on monday april good luck kevin lohman buyer university book store university of washington seattle apple computers for education program
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re increasing the number of serial ports in apr bmers bnr ca slang bnr ca steven langlois writes if such a device exists are there are any limits to the number of serial devices i can use how many nubus slots do you have applied engineering has something called the quadralink which is a card with serial ports that you get at through the comms toolbox in addition to the built in ones it also comes with software for fooling applications to open an ae port when they think they open a built in port they also have a more expensive card with dma better performance and i think they or someone else have a card that handles ports simultaneously as i said with nubus you re green learn how to use the comms resource manager to get at the various installed cards cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe you never hide the menu bar you might go about and change the color of it to the color of the background but you never hide the menu bar tog
comp.sys.mac.hardware	any nanao i compatible mac video cards does anyone know if a nanao i is compatible with any popular mac video cards i have an oppurtunity to get a brand new one cheap and i am very tempted but it will be a waste of time if i can t drive it using a standard video card while i m on the subject what s everybody s reccomendations for a color monitor i ve heard good things about the nec fg and of course there is always the reliable old macintosh display but what are your experiences david j harr cyberpunk software my definition of happiness is being famous for your financial ability to indulge in every form of excess calvin
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re reseting lw iig to factory defaults in article qpir slab mtholyoke edu jurgen botz jbotz mtholyoke edu writes i have a laserwriter iig that has disappeared completely from the network i e it s name doesn t show up in any zone you can print to it from it s serial interface tho i have seen some discussion here about changing the zone a iig is in including some ps code that lets you change the zone is there maybe some ps code you can use to have it go back to all its factory default settings i have a feeling that s what needed to heal ours the following postscript works for laserwriter iig s with version roms serverdict begin exitserver factorydefaults true setsystemparams systemdict begin realtime add dup realtime le pop exit if loop quit rob
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why does apple give us a confusing message in c ngii bgx news cis umn edu bunt student tc umn edu monthian buntan writes does anyone know why apple has an ambiguous message for c regarding fpu in all mac price lists i ve seen every c as the message fpu optional i know from what we ve discussed in this newsgroup that all c have the fpu built in except the configuration why would they be so unclear about this issue in their price list perhaps the reason is simple maybe the marketing people who put together the brochures and price lists weren t clear on the fpu issue afterall apple s literature is not always correct a funny one i noticed recently is that some of the brochures on the macs with cd capability refer to the auto inkjet feature this should have read auto inject feature as it does on some other correct brochures i ve seen from apple since it was correct on some older brochures i can only guess that someone edited the copy saw inject and thought it was a typo and changed it to the more familiar word inkjet hmmm what would that be a printer built into the cd player a way of writing information to a cd
comp.sys.mac.hardware	video display my mac monitor displays about vertical lines when i use it it means that either my display memory goes wrong or monitor is bad or video card is bad i checked my monitor it works fine with other mac i checked my video card it s also fine i replaced all the rams it still didn t give me right answer hence i assume something wrong with some part of my motherboard i don t know hardware architecture of the macintosh can anyone tell me what s the problem it s a mac iicx many thanks in advance kuan netcom netcom com my name kuan yihpyng born taichung taiwan r o c work phone company failure analysis associates inc commonwealth drive p o box menlo park ca my philosophy where there is a will there is a way
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stereo sound problem on mac games hi i think i have a problem with the stereo sound output on my quadra but i am not totally sure because my roomate has the same problem on his powerbook any info or experience anyopne has would be greatly appreciated when i hook my quadra up to my home stereo system the following types of sounds mono as far as i can tell all play fine through both speakers system beeps already provided ones such as indigo and ones i record armor alley spectre spaceward ho but the following games only play out of the left channel lemmings out of this world awesome game btw glider oids but still stereo system beeps do play in stereo through both speakers the one i m specifically referrring to is apocolyptic beginning which my roommate downloaded from some ftp site sumex all of the symptoms are the same on my rommates he can t run ootw because he doesn t have color we re both running system does anyone with lemmings or the other three games i mentioned above get sound out of both speakers on a mac ii class quadra lc powerbook or greater centris se etc stereo machine i used to have a mac ii and i sort of rememeber lemmings playing in stereo on that machine not just on the left channel i could be mistaken though if there were a problem with the quad s and pb s i am wondering why the system beeps still play in stereo if there isn t a problem with our machines i wonder why the games above are apparantly written to support only one channel of stereo when they could just use mono sounds so the mono sound would at least come out of both speakers like spectre etc do quadra s and powerbook s have the same roms to my knowledge so maybe this is a rom problem if so though why wouldn t system patch over this problem thanks for any help you can provide doug book dpb sdchemw ucsd edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re screen death mac plus i have a very old mac k and a mac plus both of which have the same problem their screens blank out sometimes after a minor physical jolt such as inserting a floppy in the internal drive sometimes all by themselves computer left to itself just goes blank i have replaced the wires connecting the logic boards and the video board because it seemed at first that jiggling the wires made the screen come back on this worked for a while but the blanking out has returned can i do anything do i need a new power supply a new crt a new computer i had the same problem with my a long time ago resoldering the joints on the motherboard all of them fixed it turns out that continuous heating and cooling caused annular ring shaped cracks to develop in the solder effectively cutting the video circuitry off if you re not a solder jockey you might want to have someone else do it i took mine to an electrical engineer buddy but it was a minute job tops kelley thomas kelley boylan powerpc ibm austin kelleyb austin ibm com i buy and pay for my own opinions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re wrong ram in duo here is the macweek article describing the duo ram situation w o permission i hope that is ok jose bad ram brings some duos down random access memory boards for apple macintosh powerbook duos macweek v n feb copyright coastal associates publishing l p by raines cohen austin texas some third party memory expansion cards for powerbook duos depart from apple specs in ways that could cause crashes data loss and other problems technology works inc a ram and network vendor based here last week issued a warning about three problems it said it had found in duo ram products from some competing vendors which it declined to identify other vendors and an apple spokeswoman confirmed that the problems exist self refresh the duos require a kind of dynamic ram called selfrefreshing which can recharge itself while the system sleeps but technology works said some vendors have sold duo cards with nonselfrefreshing dram which can cause the system to lose data or fail to wake from sleep most leading memory manufacturers include the letter v in the part number stamped on their self refreshing chips nonself refreshing chips instead have an l according to techworks the chip label however may not tell the whole story newer technology of wichita kan said it uses nonself refreshing chips but adds its own circuitry to keep them refreshed while the duo sleeps speed some ram card vendors have put nanosecond dram on duo cards rather than the nanosecond type the requires technology works said however some chips labeled as or nanosecond are certified by the manufacturer to run at a higher speed kingston technology corp of fountain valley calif said it offers duo ram cards with nanosecond chips but only for the duo which is compatible with the slower chips space technology works charged and apple officials confirmed that some third party cards are too large to fit properly forcing the corner of the duo keyboard up and preventing the system from starting up normally when in a duo dock lifetime memory products inc of huntington beach calif said it originally shipped cards with this problem but has since offered all customers free upgrades to cards that fit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re stereo sound problem on mac games in qsfak skc network ucsd edu dpb sdchemw ucsd edu doug p book writes but the following games only play out of the left channel but still stereo system beeps do play in stereo through both speakers mac sound hardware is diverse some macs play in stereo and mix the output the se for instance while others play in stereo but only has the left channel for the speaker while some are truly mono like the lc developers know that stuff played in the left channel is guaranteed to be heard while the right channel isn t some send data to both some only send data to the left channel the first is preferrable of course cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe engineering how will this work science why will this work management when will this work liberal arts do you want fries with that jesse n schell
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo slowdown problems i m a system and network admin one of my users has a duo specifications below that has been having slowdown problems leaving the duo on for several hours causes it to slow down unacceptably it can take seconds to change applications during this time it is completely hung if he reboots the problem goes away for a while it seems the system is getting itself into a wedged configuration he s re installed system and rebuilt the desktop neither of these have helped it s possible that it s network related he uses eudora which checks his email every minutes over ethernet he hasn t checked to see if this problem occurs while undocked he s docked most of the time little to no non apple inits i don t want to start yanking the rest unless i know that might really be the problem he hasn t tried zapping the pram i have advised him to do that next anyone who has ideas i d love to hear about them i d call apple but i ve found they re best to call during the week it s sunday evening powerbook duo mb ram card from tech works to replace non self refreshing mb card is using system enabler express modem including latest software has been to apple dealer for keyboard replacement helen trillian rose hrose kei com hrose eff org kapor enterprises inc email eff eff org for eff info electronic frontier foundation flames to systems and networks administration women not to be messed with eff org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pc syquest on a mac is it possible ie via creative cable splicing or whatever to hook a syquest mb removable drive to a mac is there any difference with the guts of the drive or is it just cable differences thanks rob rob sprecher rcs po cwru edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re non apple mini docks available a a deguzman deguzman after math uiuc edu wrote my boss is considering the purchase of a powerbook or duo he is leaning towards a because of the math coprocessor for mathematica but would get a duo if he could find a mini dock with a coprocessor have any third parties announced such a beast i believe that e machines might produce something of this nature jonathan heiliger electric power research institute m m visualization integrator hillview ave internet jonathan mecca epri com palo alto ca telephone
comp.sys.mac.hardware	se rom i just bought a select and rushed home to print some grayscale pictures for my kids when i discovered that grayscale and photograde are not available if you are using an se even if you are running with an cpu you won t see this in the printer s docs and the apple rep didn t mention it to our users group either it seems that se roms won t support those features okay i guess i should have somehow known that this was the case let the buyer beware huh apple be that as it may i have been thinking about the problem and i m puzzled why can t a defencieny in the rom be made up for in software i write software for a living on unix platforms and i don t understand the it just can t be done responses i ve gotten from those i have asked so far isn t mode or somesuch piece of soft ware just such a fix anyway i was hoping someone knowledgeable about mac internals could set me straight is it simply impossible for a mac se to print grayscale or could someone armed with enough info and a little pro gramming experience cook something up that would supplement the rom s capabilities also how does one know if one s mac can support the grayscale and photograde that the select is supposedly capable of short of buying the printer and trying it out like i did thanks for your help bill wright wgw netcom com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why does apple give us a confusing message in article ferch swiss ucs ubc ca les ferch ferch ucs ubc ca writes afterall apple s literature is not always correct a funny one i noticed recently is that some of the brochures on the macs with cd capability refer to the auto inkjet feature this should have read auto inject feature as it does on some other correct brochures i ve seen from apple since it was correct on some older brochures i can only guess that someone edited the copy saw inject and thought it was a typo and changed it to the more familiar word inkjet hmmm what would that be a printer built into the cd player a way of writing information to a cd how do you think they get the cool images on the top serface of cd s anyway they gotta have something to do the top surface artwork
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mo driver compatibility it s my understanding that when you format a magneto optical disc the formatting software installs a driver on the disc if you insert the disc in a different drive then this driver is loaded into the computer s memory and then controls the drive and if this driver is incompatible with the drive then the disc can not be mounted and or properly read written is that correct thanks jim frazier compuserve com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re se rom in article wgwc pdl y netcom com wgw netcom com william g wright writes anyway i was hoping someone knowledgeable about mac internals could set me straight is it simply impossible for a mac se to print grayscale or could someone armed with enough info and a little pro gramming experience cook something up that would supplement the rom s capabilities also how does one know if one s mac can support the grayscale and photograde that the select is supposedly capable of short of buying the printer and trying it out like i did thanks for your help bill wright wgw netcom com to use the grayscale features i believe you need a mac equipped with colour quickdraw i was told this somewhere or other but it s not mentioned in apple facts guide for apple sellers in the press release or in the technical specs sean
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac oriented bbss in chicago a member of the local bbs i frequent is looking for mac oriented bbss based in chicago any leads would be most appreciated
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pds vs nubus was re lc iii nubus capable in article apr fnalf fnal gov higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes in article c kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot the lc family of macs can only use pds cards they are not able to use nubus ah but why can some technically hip macslinger tell us what the difference is between pds and nubus is it impossible to make a gadget that plugs into pds and ends in a nubus card cage at least marvin s friend has not been able to locate one and neither have i what is the fundamental reason for this o zap bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet higgins second wave makes nubus card cages that work on the pds slots of at least three macs the se iisi and centris they have not to my knowledge announced such a device for the lcii but they could make one technologically the pds card that goes to the cage simply needs the nubus controller circuitry present on nubus macs why though does anyone care about this dgr has a three pds adapter for the lc lcii they will soon have one for the lciii pds is better than nubus for most people in most applications granted there are more nubus cards but most applications that require a nubus card like full motion video capture shouldn t be done on an lc lcii lciii anyway mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re se rom seanmcd ac dal ca writes in article wgwc pdl y netcom com wgw netcom com william g wright writes anyway i was hoping someone knowledgeable about mac internals could set me straight is it simply impossible for a mac se to print grayscale or could someone armed with enough info and a little pro gramming experience cook something up that would supplement the rom s capabilities to use the grayscale features i believe you need a mac equipped with colour quickdraw i was told this somewhere or other but it s not mentioned in apple facts guide for apple sellers in the press release or in the technical specs sean i think you will find that the mac se can print grayscale images loaded with the proper software however the mac se cannot display grayscale on its screen or any attached video because that ability is not in the rom so while you might be able to print grayscale you d have a hard time seeing the grayscale image you want to print doug this signature under construction wyvern technologies tidewater s premier online information system login guest password guest to register
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re serial port problem in article qcq ginn q calvin usc edu wls calvin usc edu writes a friend asked me to build a cable to connect an hp fetal heart monitor to a maciontosh se no problem sez i i wanted to demo it on my pb it won t work the pb has been used running zterm and kermit using both internal and external modems so i don t think it s the powerbook per se when i send a to the hp it responds with aa a test of the serial ports it works on the se but not on the pb i thought that the se is connected to earth ground and so is the hp so i connected from the chassis of the hp to the pw audio ground connector still ng any thoughts battery powered devices like the powerbook are sometimes more sensitive to serial port weirdness i had trouble with connecting my mac plus to an hp lx handheld everything else worked okay on that port but not the hp it runs on two penlite batteries it turned out that the plus by accident or by design flaw was putting a volt bias on the serial port that was doing weird things to the hp which has only v dc the hp worked fine when connected to the printer port does your pb screen get dim or anything when connected to the device have you tried using the printer port good luck jamie jamie cox jcox ess harris com phone work harris space systems corp home ms rock barnes blvd the macintosh meeting and drinking society rockledge florida usa speaking only for myself
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re powerpc ruminations was re lciii powerpc in article apr ac dal ca seanmcd ac dal ca writes in article pyramid pyramid com andrem pyrtech mis pyramid com andre molyneux writes in article qksuq tt hal gnu ai mit edu mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu david joshua mirsky writes hi i own an lciii and i recently heard an interesting rumor i heard that the lciii has a built in slot for a powerpc chip is this true i heard that the slot is not the same as the pds slot is that true thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu ai mit edu well i also have an lc iii popping the top revealed one socket for an additional vram simm one socket for a pin ram simm one socket for a flat pack fpu a processor direct slot pds identical to the lc lc ii but with an additional set of connetions to one side for the full bit data path that the lc lc ii lacked that s it i guess a board with a powerpc chip could be made that would fit in the pds but that s the only place so will it be possible to have a nubus or pds powerpc upgrade or will it require a logic board swap it would be interesting for apple to come out with a nubus powerpc that allowed use of the cpu s x like rocketshare but i guess that s getting a bit fantastic i was wondering since macweek reported that developers were seeded with powerpcs on a nubus card also any word on machine arrivals or estimated speed last i heard the estimates were around times the speed of a quadra in native risc mode i heard an apple employee mumble something about the arrival of powerpc machines at a much earlier date that q but i doubt it s true finally is the powerpc developer s cd mini course available i saw it advertised in the developer s university calendar and i d like to know if it s at all interesting sean seanmcd ac dal ca radius speculated publicly that they could provide a powerpc based rocket for existing macs it would have the plus of rocketshare and the minus of nubus accelerators no true boot off the accelerator nubus bottleneck to video and other i o apple it seems will not compete with third parties here except perhaps for not yet available macs like cyclone where a powerpc slot might be advertised look for daystar and such to make powerpc accelerators one potential problem with any accelerator though is that it will need a rom companion and apple has licensed only radius with rocketshare to use any of its proprietary code apple is between the lines trying to let us know that powerpc macs will have simplified logic boards due to the magical nature of risc and that these boards should be much cheaper to build than those in existing macs perhaps then we ll see groundbreaking prices in mac logic board upgrades much the same way we ve seen much cheaper high performance cpus this year first generation powerpcs s will also hopefully have socketed cpus so that they ll be chip upgradeable to s a year later this should be possible in much the same way that s can be pulled for clock doublers if there is too much technical baggage which i doubt since the external busses are the same size width to do this perhaps we can have cpu daughterboard a la powerbook as standard to facilitate better cpu upgrades this is an area where apple has fallen far behing the intel based world perhaps catchup is in order by the way last week s pc week had an excellent story on powerpc pentium mips r dec alpha the big four on the microprocessor front for the forseeable future worth reading for technojunkies also the latest pc has a cover story on pentium read it and all the other stories about how intel is unstoppable and preeminent right now once anyone is this secure they are due to fall intel s market position will never again be as dominant as it is today especially if amd gets the go ahead to sell its s this week as it appears it might the competition from all fronts is gearing up for an awesome battle apple users should be excited that powerpc while not guaranteed dominance is a guaranteed winner even if its one of several mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	networking how to get ma peter i m sure someone out there has a better easier way to do what you want to do but i ll tell you how we do it where i work we have about macs networked together using appletalk and phonenet connectors to chat we use a program called broadcast with it we can send brief messages to all or selected machines within the network hope that helps steed
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re se acc graphics card in article bcf dd ics uci edu matt madsen mmadsen bonnie ics uci edu writes are there any graphics cards for the se that also have say an accelerator there seem to be plenty of accelerator graphics cards for the se but none that i ve seen for the se the daystar powercache for the se replaces the cpu with an accelerated cpu plus the powercache this leavese the pds slot open for a video card currenty daystar does not have the in this configuration but it is due out early next year with their upgrade policy you can get the accelerator now and when the version becomes available you get credit for the one you have i am running their mhz version with fpu along with a radius precision color pivot and i m very satisfied earl d fife department of mathematics fife calvin edu calvin college grand rapids mi
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerator for classic ii does one exist who makes it and how much thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pc syquest on a mac in qsk u d l usenet ins cwru edu rcs po cwru edu robert c sprecher writes is it possible ie via creative cable splicing or whatever to hook a syquest mb removable drive to a mac is there any difference with the guts of the drive or is it just cable differences thanks their should be no difference in the drive itself between ibm pc and mac the two main differences are the formatting of the disk itself but with the correct software each can read the others and maybe the cable depends on your scsi board on ibm pc if you get some mac softawre to allow mounting of any ibm formatted disk and the correct cable you should br able to mount and read your ibm pc syquest good luck paul paul hardwick technical consulting internet hardwick panix com p o box for mvs sp xa esa voice ny ny and rd party addons fax pending paul hardwick technical consulting internet hardwick panix com p o box for mvs sp xa esa voice ny ny and rd party addons fax pending
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re video resolution switching in article john shepardson esh moose slac stanford edu john shepardson john shepardson esh qmail slac stanford edu writes as the author of dpi on the fry i can tell you that there is no way for a graphics card to know what resolution its connected monitor will actually support that s why we have these silly cables the cable just identifies that monitor as supporting a given resolution therefore the software will support any multisync monitor i ve heard that radius has a similar program for the quadra is this software available either commercially or public domain if so where cameron lewis email lewis tanelorn aod dsto gov au air operations division melb gbb aeronautical research laboratory d s t o fax lorimer st fishermens bend vic australia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac portable vs powerbook answers regarding the post for information about the mac portable and the powerbook here are a couple of the answers does the mac portable support appletalk yes what cpu is in the mac portable a low power version of the running at mhz does the mac portable run system yes although it does use up a lot of memory is memory still availabe for the portable there are several vendors that still make ram for the portable there are two options some vendors sell memory that plugs into the ram slot inside the portable others sell memory that plugs into the processor direct slot either way the most memory you can address is either or megabytes depending on whether the portable is backlit or not king memory and peripherials in irvine california is the cheapest place i know of for portable memory mb mb and mb i still see several ads in macuser that are selling mb modules for wide variety in pricing here what is the internal hd its a conner cp mb hd with an average access time of about ms is the screen better that the pb heavens yes the pb is a backlit passive matrix screen which means it fades out on you if you move your head a few degrees left or right the portable has a backlit or non backlit active matrix screen which i think is a joy to read other things to consider where to get the portable and how much to pay for it a good supplier has been selectterm in mass they were willing to sell a mb non backlit portable with an internal bps modem for about or a mb backlit portable with an internal bps modem for about the answer is call around for a good while or you ll pay too much i m still looking for an internal fax modem for the portable anybody got one they want to sell good luck gene wright gene theporch raider net gene wright theporch raider net the macinteresteds of nashville
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor recommendation needed i have finally decided to update my se i am planning on buying a centris cd now what monitor should i get here are a few guidelines my wife uses pagemaker occasionally i use excel sometimes and i do alot of telecommuting from home to work we both do word processing greater than inches i have looked at the radius color pivot this can be bought for under i have heard good things about the e machines t the older model not the new t ii how about the super mac t these both can be had for a little over any others garry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what size vram simm is this hi everyone i recently posted about how i received a bad vram chip for my new lciii and someone responded that it may not actually be bad but it may be a k lc vram chip and thus doesn t work properly with my computer so i m wondering if anyone can interpret these codes for me so i can figure out what type of chip macconnection sent me each chip says m a j on the back of the card it says i believe from the numbers that means it is an ns chip but i can t figure out what the size is supposed to be if anyone can help i d be grateful please email me your response thanks a lot hillel sims simsh rpi edu rensselaer polytechnic institute is rot rotated forward or backward anonymous
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ghost on apple color user insane dear netters my sister has an apple color display hooked up to an lc problem there is an annoying horizontal ghost like stripe that precesses vertically about once per second it is about cm high she is in grave danger of going insane because of it any ideas of what it might be and how i might cure it for her joe betts betts netcom com ps if i pick up the display i thought it might be rfi from the lc it seems to get worse
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re networking how to get ma in bd cd c axolotl steed bell macrocosm omahug org steed bell writes networked together using appletalk and phonenet connectors to chat we use a program called broadcast with it we can send brief messages to all or selected machines within the network if you use system you can use my application zing which has a kb footprint meaning you can have it running all the time without losing memory it is also compatible with the chat program fishbomb which allows sounds and pictures as well both are as far as i know freeware i dustribute zing with source and should be available on the normal services mac archive umich edu for instance cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe this signature is kept shorter than lines in the interests of usenet s n ratio
comp.sys.mac.hardware	us simm prices please please could someone in the us give me the current street prices on the following with and without any relevant taxes mb pin simm mb pin simm both for mac lc iii are any tax refunds possible if they are to be exported to the uk can you recommend a reliable supplier as i am posting this from a friend s account please reply direct to me at s fraser ic ac uk thanks in advance for any help simon
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems i would like more info on this if anybody has it our exabyte tapedrive has never been working from the quadra we have been trying it since september replaced cabling inits i don t know what all all the industry experts we phoned the tapedrive dealer our apple dealer the software dealer all say it s our fault or they don t know the last thing they said was that we needed a special quadra scsi terminator anybody know more thanks katinka van der linden katinka fenk wau nl
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why does apple give us a confusing message ferch ucs ubc ca les ferch writes in c ngii bgx news cis umn edu bunt student tc umn edu monthian buntan writes does anyone know why apple has an ambiguous message for c regarding fpu in all mac price lists i ve seen every c as the message fpu optional i know from what we ve discussed in this newsgroup that all c have the fpu built in except the configuration why would they be so unclear about this issue in their price list perhaps the reason is simple maybe the marketing people who put together the brochures and price lists weren t clear on the fpu issue perhaps the marketing people don t know what an fpu is terry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	changing port buffer size in zterm some kind soul told me that i could change the serial port buffer size of zterm via resedit he did not tell me how i could change it using resedit and i have lost his e mail address could he or any one else please tell me what to do i assume that the relevant resource is zset but i do not know and i have no template for that resource if you have a tmpl for the correct resource i would be grateful to receive it that way i could play around a bit and maybe get my duo to do something useful with its serial port other than appletalk btw i believe that when the port stats says that maximum in buffer is bytes that that means increasing the buffer will help if you are using hardware handshaking i can cram text data pretty fast into my duo and can monitor that cts is being lowered but the buffer never gets beyond out of bytes makes sense to me scott petrack petrack haifasc vnet ibm com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	using setwutime with a pb i seem to be having some trouble with this i can get the mac to go to sleep but i can t make seem to make it wake up with setwutime i am aware of the error in the header files and im vi i am setting the wu time to be about two minutes then putting the mac to sleep but it doesn t wakeup at the appointed time does it require a call to systemtask in order to make sure that everything is setup andrew e page warrior poet decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant the difference between what we are macintosh and dsp technology and what we want to be
comp.sys.mac.hardware	serial line connection between duo and pc i have tried almost everything under the sun to get a null modem connection between a mac duo and a pc i have used mackermit and versaterm on the mac side i have used procomm kermit and softerm on os on the pc or ps side i have used non hardware handshaking and hardware ahdshaking cables and know my hands are shaking from the effort nothing has allowed file transfers from the mac to the ps in general i can type back and forth with no trouble but only if both sides are set to speeds over baud i cannot send files from the mac to the ps at all and file transfers from the duo to the ps are not possible when i do a straight ascii send i can send from the ps to the duo flawlessly i can send binhex files this way quite fast and i know that the transmission is error free but straight ascii sent from the mac to the ps is full of errors unless of course i do text pacing so slow that it is like human typing well like times faster than human typing i would like to hear from anyone who has been able to transfer files from a duo to a ps via modem or null modem if you can do it please tell me your exact combination of hardware and software obviously i am talking of a true serial port modem not the express modem maybe some kind soul with access to a modem and a duo can check this out for me right now i am of the opinion that it won t work at high speeds because of the power interrupts on the duo and it won t work at low speeds because of some crazy reason i don t understand could i hear from someone attesting that they can really pump information out the serial port of a duo fast like via a modem or via a sys ex dump could anyone with a duo help me out i am going absolutely insane i wanna know if the problem is my duo or all duo s or all duos or just me yes i have checked the cable times and not only can i type back and forth but zterm alerts the users if s he uses hardware handshaking and cts is down so i know that hardware handshaking is working and also according to zterm port stats the buffer never overflows please help me figure out what s going on scott petrack petrack haifasc vnet ibm com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems in article c l p qz news udel edu johnston me udel edu bill johnston writes in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark h nodine writes i don t know about the specific problem mentioned in your message but i definitely had scsi problems between my q and my venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge drives my solution was to get silverlining none of the loops that involved blind writes worked to the drives in fact the only loop that worked was the macintosh software loop whatever that means i doubt this is a quadra specific problem i had to get rid of my venerable bernoulli last year with enough cartridges purchased at each to make the whole thing worth more than my whole computer the tech support guys at ocean microsystems suggested that some third party drivers might fix the problem in my case the cartridges wouldn t format mount partition for a ux all i know is that the megadrives worked perfectly on both my mac plus and my powerbook it was for this reason i assumed the problem had something to do with the quadra even with the quadra they mostly worked ok the problem occurred when i ejected a cartridge from a drive it would start popping up dialog boxes saying this cartridge must be formatted with jasmine driveware even though there was no cartridge in the drive mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	token ring cards for macs i am looking for recommendations experiences of bringing macintosh cpus onto token ring nets can someone point me in the right direction for information thanks in advance tom
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re photo shop scanner in article c lgii euj ncube com root ncube com operator writes from root ncube com operator subject photo shop scanner date fri apr gmt i have a macc iici and a color scanner i scanned a picture at dpi when i try to print it on my hp color printer after minutes of making noise the mac hangs i would need to reboot it what does this mean do i need to buy more memory i have mb now i also have about mb of disk free and the scanned picture is about mb captain zod zod ncube com have you tried printing the data file tiff from another application such as freehand or pagemaker i have found that photoshop has occasional problems printing files that i can print through other applications greg gcohen mailer cc fsu edu infinite illusions juggling supplies beware of the fnord or it will torch call or write for a eat you catalog
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re position of b on erg keyboard in article apr daimi aau dk viralbus daimi aau dk thomas martin widmann writes so far i have only seen pictures of the new ergonomic keyboard but it seems that the b is placed on the left part after the split however when i learned typing in school some years ago i was taught to write b with my right hand is this a difference between danish and american typing or what thanks a lot in advance in germany you usually use the left hand for the b yours frankie frank probul emanuelstr d munich germany applelink probul f applelink apple com internet probulf informatik tu muenchen de munich university of technology department of computer science germany
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re my iicx won t turn on in article vv kl rpi edu pilon aix ecs rpi edu t j pilon wrote anyone know what would cause my iicx to not turn on when i hit the keyboard switch the one in the back of the machine doesn t work either the only way i can turn it on is to unplug the machine for a few minutes then plug it back in and hit the power switch in the back immediately sometimes this doesn t even work for a long time tj this problem is most likely the same that all cx users are experiencing thanks to one very adventurous usenet reader sorry i can t remember the guy s name somebody please post it he deserves the credit for saving us all it is easily fixed if it is the same problem best i can figure it is due to time heat and repeated warmup cool downs in the power supply i e bad solder joints in the power supply circuit card go get a desolder tool from radio shack a low wattage iron and some good nonacid solder and resolder the lower left quadrant of the circuit card with the ac plugs facing away from you or get someone to do it for you it took me less then minutes and saved me at least for a new supply
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re questions about the centris s ram petere tesla mitre org peter d engels writes according to the seen several times postings from dale adams of apple computer both the and the require ns simms not ns only the centris requires ns simms you re correct except that s quadra not centris hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re changing port buffer size in zterm in almaden ibm com petrack vnet ibm com writes some kind soul told me that i could change the serial port buffer size of zterm via resedit he did not tell me how i could change it using resedit and i have lost his e mail address could he or any one else please tell me what to do i assume that the relevant resource is zset but i do not know and chop could you please post it to the net too please as i and i m sure many others would like to know thanks kev kevin hayes my opinions do necessarily dalhousie university reflect the opinions of halifax nova scotia canada myself so sue me hayes ug cs dal ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	card questions i m considering buying one of these to offload the internal video in my iici and to get bit color capability on my monitor what s the deal on them do they come with varying amounts of ram if so what is the max and min how much do i need for x x bits what bit depths are supported one and are all these cards accelerated or just some is it true that modern accelerated video cards are at least in general faster what bit depths are accelerated all or just bit i ve heard that some applications actually run slower with this card if they write directly to the screen or something like that is this a frequent problem how much slower is it didn t i read when system first came out that the card was incompatible if so how was this corrected finder patch some init or other has it been kept compatible with are there many other apps that it is incompatible with games or important i e non microsloth apps for example if you have a strong opinion on it s value for someone in my position let me know what you think a reasonable price is to pay for it thanks a lot for you input rick rick roy usenet rick howtek mv com america online qed disclaimer my employer s views are orthogonal to these the early bird got worms
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re increasing the number of serial ports in article apr bmers bnr ca slang bnr ca steven langlois wrote does anyone know if there are any devices available for the mac which will increase the number of serial ports available for use simultaneously i would like to connect up to serial devices to my mac for an application i am working on i must be able to access each one of the independently if such a device exists are there are any limits to the number of serial devices i can use any information is appreciated steven langlois slang bnr ca the quadralink by ae is a possibly problematical solution to your needs i ve used one for the last years on my personal system but a fatal bug has crept into their more recent s w the bug only shows up during heavy serial traffic but completely crashes the system macsbug can not reboot time to hit the restart button ae told me in january that they were aware of and working on fixing the bug which i described to them since then they have not answered any of my faxes asking them for a status of the bug fix the ql has been great but for now i have mine sidelined if you are only going to be using baud or less then you may have no or very infrequent problems sven
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadras vram question daniel salber salber imag fr writes i have a question regarding quadras vram i have tried to find info on this but i could not get precise answers on one hand we have a quadra with a monitor which is capable of bit color how much vram does it have to display millions of colors on a monitor you need mb of vram in the q on the other hand we have a quadra with a monitor which is capable of bit color only so it must have ko of vram correct this is the amount of on board vram that the q comes with i would like to take vram simms for the and put them in the so that both machines have bit color capability is it possible and if yes how many vram simms should i take from the yes this is possible technically you only need to take out of the vram simms but leaving in the other two will not get you anything because the cannot really do anything with mb of vram it only knows mb and mb from the documentation i have the quadra must get mo vram to have bit color is that correct yes this is correct you get to mb by putting k vram simms into the vram simm slots on the q s motherboard bonus question where do vram simms hide from the documentation they seem to be behind the power supply do i really have to take off the power supply to access the vram simms yup you have to take off the power supply it s only a couple of screws so you should be ok just make sure that everything is disconnected from it and watch out for static discharges
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cache card for iisi i m looking for a cache card for my iisi i can spend max for it what i need is kb cache with a fpu socket and a dual slot adapter or at least a passe through connector so i can keep my graphic card i need your advice about the best card i can buy how much performance increase i should expect does the performance increase between the and kb cache worths the price difference and what s the best price i can get for such a card i really need to spare each possible i have an ethernet card for the lc with fpu i don t think it would work for the iisi but the fpu is socketed do you think i can take the fpu out of the card and put it in the empty fpu socket would it work at mhz if not how much should i pay for an extra fpu sham u ya tha s seif u lam yaghib i ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag fr ya jamal al majd i fi l kutub i lab de genie informatique lgi kablak i t tareekh u fi thulmaten imag inpg baadak i staula ala sh shuhub i av felix viallet grenoble
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re macs suck buy a pc in article c ouop f t news cis umn edu horton molbio cbs umn edu robert horton writes tests suck post a real message presumably erme maula is testing the size limits of his email account that s erme pobox upenn edu for those who missed it
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris video problem i m having it also in article qqf b oc usenet ins cwru edu bm cleveland freenet edu david kantrowitz writes from push media mit edu pushpinder singh subject re centris video problem i m having it also date sat apr gmt when the computer is set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through a window horizontal white lines appear on the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate as the operation is continued if a window is moved over the involved area of the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area of the screen this problem is not observed if the monitor is configured for colors or a inch apple monitor with colors is used i suspect a bad video ram chip but cannot be certain the problem has been apparent since day but has gotten worse etc has anyone not had these problems in the given configurations that would help eliminate design flaw as the explanation as a data point i m using a centris with the apple monitor and do not have these problems dch
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help with simm configuration rcs po cwru edu robert c sprecher writes can someone please help me understand the current situation regarding simms sure i can give is a shot i have a iisi which i will probably keep for another years i would like to add more memory ie go from mb to mb i know that i will need x mb ns or faster simms which simms pin or pin you need to get the pin simms would the simms i get today be usable in years with a newer more powerful system if you mean in a newer more powerful mac system then the answer is no apple has stated that all new macs will use the pin simms and no longer use the pin simms hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why does apple give us a confusing message ubs carson u washington edu university bookstore writes bunt student tc umn edu monthian buntan writes does anyone know why apple has an ambiguous message for c regarding fpu in all mac price lists i ve seen every c has the message fpu optional i know from what we ve discussed in this newsgroup that all c have the fpu built in except the configuration why would they be so unclear about this issue in their price list i think this is mostly the fault of the people who write up the literature and price lists being confused themselves since there are two possible processor configurations and one of the them doesn t have an fpu it does seem to be an option even though it really isn t i m planning to buy the c cd pretty soon but i m now getting confused with whether it comes with fpu or not well then allow me to end your confusion the c only come with an lc in the base configuration if you are not getting this configuration then you are getting an fpu why say optional if it s built in good question i have been wondering that since feb th if you get the centris with cd configuration you are getting a mac with a rc processor that has built in math coprocessor support my understanding is that the optional fpu refers to your option of purchasing the centris without fpu or one of the other configurations with fpu this is possible but an option is something that you are supposed to be able to request when you want it what apple has done is given the buyer a choice between configurations and not an option apple does not offer an upgrade from the non fpu system to become an fpu system and it is unclear whether the processor on the non fpu system a lc can be replaced with a rc supplied by another vendor this is not unclear at all in fact apple has included in the roms of those machines with lc s code to recognize the presence of the full s fpu and use it thereby making the upgrade as easy as switching chips you pop the lc out and pop in a full apple did send a memo out at one point sating that the centris which only comes with a non fpu lc processor cannot be upgraded to support an fpu the pin configurations of the two chips apparently do not match so you cannot swap one for another again according to apple s memo they did i think i would double check this it has been stated countless times in this newsgroup by two of the centris hardware designers that the lc and the full are pin compatible and that the c can be upgraded to a full hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris math coprocessor option david anthony guevara cup portal com writes sorry if this is a faq i don t normally read comp sys mac hardware i am purchasing a couple of centris s i configured the systems as follows eight mb ram ethernet mb vram math coprocessor option my purchasing agent told me about the math coprocessor option and sent me the apple summary documentation to prove it i ordered the coprocessor option but i m really not sure that we needed it i thought the chip had a math coprocessor built into it has apple had a math coprocessor chip architectured to keep up with the speed of the chip in the centris i am concerned that i may have set up a hardware bottleneck apple has really confused people with this whole thing i think we ll be answering this question for about the next year or so there is no option to get an fpu on a c what you have is a choice of cpus there is the lc that does not have an integrated fpu like the full and is only present in the base model of the c appleusa and there is the full which you get when you order anything other than the base configuration therefore since you have ordered one of the mb versions with on board ethernet models you will not be getting the lc but even if you wanted to have the lc you wouldn t be able to order a c with mb ram on board ethernet and an lc it s not an option also a note to people out there that have c s and c s thinking that there is an optional fpu the class chip cannot recognize an external fpu so there is no socket on the motherboard for a fpu chip and you cannot go out and purchase an fpu on a pds card or something like that the only way to get an fpu in these machines is to replace the lc with a full and if you have a c you will not need to worry about a heat sink if you do replace the lc with the full but if you have a c you do need to have a heat sink hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re tcp ip routing localtalk ethernet in article qpn uinnjs stimpy css itd umich edu bchuang css itd umich edu ben chuang wrote here is the story i have a network with macs on localtalk one of them has an ethernet card and is currently connected to a next don t laugh i got it for the price of a mac iisi the next is connected to the internet over slip running on a baud modem currently we can telnet from the mac w ethernet to the next and then telnet out again to the rest of the world what we want to know is if there is some sort of hardware that will route telnet sessions from the localtalk macs to the next via the ethernet mac from what we have heard air doesn t do the trick software solutions would be good too but my impression is that there aren t going to be any our immediate interest is to be able to get to the next and telnet out again the slip connection doesn t allow us to assign ip numbers to machines so everyone shares that number oh well what you need is a hardware router such as etherroute tcp made by compatable systems this will allow you to connect your localtalk network macs to your ethernet network next and ethernet mac it will route tcp ip protocol between the two networks software routers are also available for less money but i m not sure if they work with tcp ip paul
comp.sys.mac.hardware	full page pb screen hi i am working on a project for my marketing class and i d like to ask your help the assignment is to come up with a product and create a marketing plan for it technical issues are not terribly important at this point well my group s plan is to market a full page monitor for laptop computers it would be a third party product to be installed by authorized repair centers like newer technology s palettebook screen the idea is that the screen would fold in such a way that you would get twice the screen height of a normal screen remember technical issues aside in fact by adjusting the fold of the screen and the monitor configuration you could have regular or full height the screen would probably be monochrome the motivation behind this is that laptop computers seem to be very popular among business people business people also commonly use word processing and spreadsheet applications for which it is very convenient to see a large portion of the document because of the target users and applications color screens aren t really a neccessity we could hopefully keep the cost between and now please don t write this off as completely ridiculous i really need some constructive feedback so if you would please reply to me via email and let me know if you would consider buying a full page laptop screen how much you would be willing to pay for it any helpful commentaries on the idea also if you take this idea and make a lot of money off it doubtful but who knows please send me some thanks in advance mike
comp.sys.mac.hardware	built in video problems on mac iisi dear mac friends i ve seen the following problem om three mac iisi machines all with mb ram installed or ns simms if the contents of a window are being calculated and updated a lot of strange horizontal lines are temporarily generated on the screen the lines translate to the top of the screen and have a slightly lower brightness than their surroundings they are a few millimeters apart i admit that they are vague but they can still be distinguished clearly especially if the environment i e the rest of the room is a bit dark applications which produce this effect are the previewer of directtex i e dvireader kaleidagraph fpu the machines use their built in video and drive the old apple hires monochrome screen two monitors cable sets tried the effect is independent of the settings in the following control panels memory adressing mode disk cache and monitors nr of greys colors have you ever seen this effect too is there a solution thanks fred fred walsteijn internet walsteyn fys ruu nl institute for marine and atmospheric research fax utrecht university the netherlands phone
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin simms where i am looking for a meg pin simm for my centris where is the best place to purchase one stock shipping warrenty and if possible phone numbers so that i can order one as soon as possible thanks steven and hope that there s intelligent life somewhere out in space monty python cause there s bugger all down here on earth the meaning of life steven medley email to smedley erasure ecst csuchico edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	when is apple going to ship cd i s i would really like to get one of the new cd i cdrom drives for my c but my local apple doesn t know when they will be available he doesn t even have a part number yet does anyone know what the part number for this drive is and when it will be available my apple dealer suggested i buy one of the cd external drives but i don t want to pay extra for a case power supply i m not going to use rodney jacks rjacks austlcm sps mot com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	whither quickdraw performance across product line my company has developed an application for the mac that emulates a chart recorder virtual pen traces scroll smoothly across the screen as we tested the application on a number of computers we discovered some surprising performance differences across products the scroll performance of the iisi and lcii was better than the iifx this led us to investigate color quickdraw performance across the apple line the results the fastest quickdraw color performing computer apple makes is the drumroll please lciii and the color classic ranks right up there with the quadra line the centris line pales in comparison does anybody know the differences in these computers that explains the disparity in graphics processor performance dave steele daves xetron com xetron corp w crescentville road cincinnati ohio
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi hi i bought a while ago a cache card w fpu from techworks it was i think that was the cheapest i ever saw peter
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re position of b on erg keyboard in apr informatik tu muenchen de probulf informatik tu muenchen de frank probul writes however when i learned typing in school some years ago i was taught to write b with my right hand is this a difference between danish and american typing or what in germany you usually use the left hand for the b same in sweden the ergonomic keyboard is great but the palm rests do not fix to the keyboard they just sort of rests against the table too bad when you have the keyboard in your knee cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe you never hide the menu bar you might go about and change the color of it to the color of the background but you never hide the menu bar tog
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re built in video problems on mac iisi in apr fys ruu nl walsteyn fys ruu nl fred walsteijn writes i ve seen the following problem om three mac iisi machines all with mb ram installed or ns simms if the contents of a window are being calculated and updated a lot of strange horizontal lines are temporarily generated on the screen the lines translate to the top of the screen and have a slightly lower brightness than their surroundings they are a few millimeters apart i admit that they are vague but they can still be distinguished clearly especially if the environment i e the rest of the room is a bit dark applications which produce this effect are the previewer of directtex i e dvireader kaleidagraph fpu another program which produces this effect is spyglass transform while contouring a big array thanks for any information about this problem fred walsteijn internet walsteyn fys ruu nl institute for marine and atmospheric research fax utrecht university the netherlands phone
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark h nodine wrote in article c l p qz news udel edu johnston me udel edu bill johnston writes in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark h nodine writes i don t know about the specific problem mentioned in your message but i definitely had scsi problems between my q and my venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge stuff deleted i doubt this is a quadra specific problem i had to get rid of my venerable bernoulli last year with enough stuff deleted might fix the problem in my case the cartridges wouldn t format mount partition for a ux all i know is that the megadrives worked perfectly on both my mac plus and my powerbook it was for this reason i assumed the problem had something to do with the quadra even with the quadra they mostly worked ok the problem occurred when i ejected a cartridge from a drive it would start popping up dialog boxes saying this cartridge must be formatted with jasmine driveware even though there was no cartridge in the drive mark the problem mentioned last is a known quadra scsi problem it was heavily discussed last year and an apple employee pointed out that there was a one byte error in the scsi driver routine for the quadra s at least the and system should not have that problem for most people the solution was to get an updated driver from the drive manufactor in my case mass microsystems wrote a new driver which fixed the problem on my quadra all that occured early last year michael s kluskens kluskens radar nrl navy mil opinions expressed are the author s and not those of his employer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pds vs nubus was re lc iii nubus capable in article qt vd morrow stanford edu hk mlr forsythe stanford edu mark rogowsky writes second wave makes nubus card cages that work on the pds slots of at least three macs the se iisi and centris they have not to my knowledge announced such a device for the lcii but they could make one technologically the pds card that goes to the cage simply needs the nubus controller circuitry present on nubus macs why though does anyone care about this dgr has a three pds adapter for the lc lcii they will soon have one for the lciii pds is better than nubus for most people in most applications granted there are more nubus cards but most applications that require a nubus card like full motion video capture shouldn t be done on an lc lcii lciii anyway mark nubus is a much more robust system for system for installing multiple cards without configuration problems i know that when i was checking into expasion options for an si there were a number of pds video cards that would not work with certian dual slot cache adapters erik speckman
comp.sys.mac.hardware	imagewriter ii at hz hi a while back there was a thread in this group about the use of the iwii in europe in countries with hz ac current the consensus at the time was that the iwii would not work there as i will be moving there this summer i called apple to make sure and they told me today that the iwii as bought in the u s will definitely run on hz ac current as long as a step down converter is employed if v current is used the same info turns out can be found in the iwii manual p in the version but i didn t really trust that does anyone have any direct experience to the contrary just wondering chris w
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s in article apr newsgate sps mot com rjacks austlcm sps mot com rodney jacks writes i would really like to get one of the new cd i cdrom drives for my c but my local apple doesn t know when they will be available he doesn t even have a part number yet does anyone know what the part number for this drive is and when it will be available my apple dealer suggested i buy one of the cd external drives but i don t want to pay extra for a case power supply i m not going to use rodney jacks rjacks austlcm sps mot com the cd external is already shipping and has been shipping for quite awhile now demand for the units are high so they are pretty rare i ve seen them listed for around at local computer stores and the campus mac reseller i ve also heard rumors that they are bundled with a couple of cd s but i can t confirm it sunny sunnyt dna bchs uh edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerating the macplus we re about ready to take a bold step into the s around here by accelerating our rather large collection of stock macplus computers yes indeed difficult to comprehend why anyone would want to accelerate a macplus but that s another story suffuce it to say we can get accelerators easier than new machines hey i don t make the rules anyway on to the purpose of this post i m looking for info on macplus acelerators so far i ve found some lit on the novy accelerator and the micrmac multispeed accelartor both look acceptable but i would like to hear from anyone who has tried these also if someone would recommend another accelerator for the macplus i d like to hear about it thanks for any time and effort you expend on this karl
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra startup w out monitor ya right is there a fix for this we have a quadra that will not finish startup unless there is a monitor connected this would be no problem but since we re running it as a file server there is no need to have a monitor connected all the time horsefeathers shawn fitzgerald umcc u of m computing club michigan chungkuo umcc umich edu whether you are quiet and alive or quiet and dead makes no difference to cerebus
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ntsc and th 
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ntsc and the mac a question in general about displaying ntsc through a mac if i understand correctly the video spigot can display ntsc in a small window as well as capture the data in quicktime format however if i want to use a larger window what are my options perhaps i misunderstood the video spigot review also i am not interested in quicktime i would merely like to use my mac as a television from time to time i have a nice sony monitor and i would like to use it as a second tv when my wife is watching sitcoms on our regular tv perhaps some of the video cards for the mac accept ntsc input i have a iisi and i am willing to buy a nubus adapter thanks in advance for any help george micahels
comp.sys.mac.hardware	scsi ethernet converter for sale i have a strange piece of equipment to unload it is a ether scsi interface apparently it can be plugged into a scsi port and from there to an ethernet that way you save a slot nifty well i assume you people know more about it so judging by the price tag new i ll ask say anybody interested
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple cd cdrom freebies in article quod i n menudo uh edu sunnyt coding bchs uh edu writes reseller i ve also heard rumors that they are bundled with a couple of cd s but i can t confirm it sunny sunnyt dna bchs uh edu i ve got two cd s the first one i ordered jan and i received it feb the second one i ordered jan th and i just got it april nd or so anyway they both come with misc cdroms things like a intro to nautilis a sample cd of kodak pictures from alice to ocean a story of a woman who treked across austrailia discs from apple a games disc an applications disc and a titles disc haven t checked most of these out yet also some cinderella thing for kids a disc of mozart something or others etc etc etc if someone s super interested i ll make a list of the exact titles and post them they are all in the category of interesting but probably fairly useless it was rumored that the earliest units shipped with some encyclocpedia it may have but neither of my drives had that jeff adams
comp.sys.mac.hardware	se hard drive problem i have an se with a meg hd which dates back to april when i originally purchased it i experienced the failure to boot problem this was fixed soon after by a rom upgrade on the hard drive lately a similar problem has been occuring when the computer is powered on the hd light flashes a few times and then i am given the no disk to boot from icon however upon turing the computer off and on again the drive always boots up just fine furthermore if instead of turning the power on and off i press the reboot button the same problem occurs but as i said turning the power off and on always works this problem is different from the boot problem in that before it often required several power off and ons to get it to boot does anybody have any suggestions as to what the problem is or how it can be fixed i m wondering if it s getting old and requires more time to come up to speed now is there a pram or scsi setting that allows me to tell the computer to wait a little longer before trying to access the hd thanks altan j stalker astalker nickel ucs indiana edu indiana university computer science dept
comp.sys.mac.hardware	q buying advice does anyone have a version of which mac do i buy that is later than v i no longer have access the ziffnet mac accessed through compuserve to check for myself which mac is a hypercard stack that assists in decision making based on budget features and main software used please let me know if you can help me out download from compuserve should not cost much if a higher speed modem is used stack compressed is about kb thanks for any help dale carsona sfu ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	recommend me a ps printer i m in the market for a laser printer used printers are fine non apple printers are fine but whatever printer i get must fit the following required features postscript dpi emough memory to download fonts the cheaper the better i d prefer under nice things anything over pages per minute scsi output for a font disk smallish footprint don t care about postscript level ii networking its just for me and always will be color i know about freedom of press but i ve also heard that its painfully slow i can tolerate about ppm but anything slower than that and i m not going to consider the price savings worth it i d be curious to hear people s experience with it tho i also infinitely prefer laser over ink i used to use hp deskjets in my last job and wasn t impressed with the quality i m a laser bigot and the first to admit it i ll be using the printer to layout pages of a book i m writing the page will include multiple fonts ps graphics scanned line art and maybe greyscale pictures not sure yet the quality doesn t need to be spectacular but it needs to be clear and readable printers i ve been looking at used laserwriters the plus the nt the ntr its my understanding that only the ntr has a scsi out for a disk true personal laserwriter ls and ntr i have access to the apple employee discount i work for one of apple s spinoffs so i can get these reasonably cheaply i ve heard bad things about the ls comments i m leaning towards the personal ntr cause it has a nice small footprint laserwriter select i hear it doesn t have postscript but i haven t seen anything for sure i heard mumbles once about a postscript upgrade used hp laserjets i ve worked with the ii and iip on another platform and they were painfully slow are they that bad on the mac i ve seen ads for an epson ps laserprinter that is running quite cheap any comments on this printer i hate the styling too many ouput trays but if its a decent printer i ll consider it thanks for any comments laura lemay lemay netcom com writer of trifles in shadows and blood
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re stereo sound problem on mac games in article qsfak skc network ucsd edu doug p book dpb sdchemw ucsd edu writes hi i think i have a problem with the stereo sound output on my quadra but i am not totally sure because my roomate has the same problem on his powerbook any info or experience anyopne has would be greatly appreciated when i hook my quadra up to my home stereo system the following types of sounds mono as far as i can tell all play fine through both speakers system beeps already provided ones such as indigo and ones i record armor alley spectre spaceward ho but the following games only play out of the left channel lemmings out of this world awesome game btw glider oids but still stereo system beeps do play in stereo through both speakers the one i m specifically referrring to is apocolyptic beginning which my roommate downloaded from some ftp site sumex all of the symptoms are the same on my rommates he can t run ootw because he doesn t have color we re both running system does anyone with lemmings or the other three games i mentioned above get sound out of both speakers on a mac ii class quadra lc powerbook or greater centris se etc stereo machine i used to have a mac ii and i sort of rememeber lemmings playing in stereo on that machine not just on the left channel i could be mistaken though if there were a problem with the quad s and pb s i am wondering why the system beeps still play in stereo if there isn t a problem with our machines i wonder why the games above are apparantly written to support only one channel of stereo when they could just use mono sounds so the mono sound would at least come out of both speakers like spectre etc do quadra s and powerbook s have the same roms to my knowledge so maybe this is a rom problem if so though why wouldn t system patch over this problem thanks for any help you can provide in article apr kth se jon wtte d jwa hemul nada kth se writes mac sound hardware is diverse some macs play in stereo and mix the output the se for instance while others play in stereo but only has the left channel for the speaker while some are truly mono like the lc developers know that stuff played in the left channel is guaranteed to be heard while the right channel isn t some send data to both some only send data to the left channel the first is preferrable of course okay i guess its time for a quick explanation of mac sound the original documentation for the sound hardware im documents how to make sound by directly accessing hardware basically you jam values into all the even bytes from soundbase to soundbase x this was because of how the mac and some later machines generated sound was by scanning this block and d aing every even byte the odd bytes went to the floppy on some machines when the mac ii and apple sound chip was invented it was designed to generate stereo sound it was also designed to be compatible with we had once documented so storing bytes at the even values at soundbase meant i want to play a mono sound and so it was emulated but apple had since retracted the documentation on soundbase and decided not to document the lowest layers of sound generation so apple never explained where to stuff bytes if you want to make stereo sound enter game developers the sound driver and current sound manager are inconveniently lame for making games furthermore people who port from the ibm don t want to learn more apis so it has become popular for game writers to write to soundbase to make sound since it is very easy since the mac ii apple has had many different kind of sound output hardware and the only things they have in common are that writing to soundbase works on some hardware mac ii iix iicx iici at least writing to soundbase gets you mono sound through both speakers on some macs quadra at least writing to soundbase gets you mono sound on the left channel only both are technically correct interpretations of the original specification but one is obviously preferable for asthetic reasons if developers use the sound manager and i think the sound driver mono sounds will typically come out through both channels regardless of the underlying hardware it is possible to specify you want to generate left channel only but no one does if developers write to sound base their games will only come out the left on some games the other problem the original mac ii only producing left channel sound on the internal speaker while the se mixes both isn t really related it is due to the post generation amplification used on the motherboards of the different machines it only affects true stereo sounds sounds which are actually mono will play on the internal speaker no matter what machine you have now to more directly address the question the games you list lemmings out of this world awesome game btw glider oids and also hellcats super tetris oxyd and many more these are just what i ve tested cheat and write to soundbase and so are only left channel on quadras other games you list armor alley spectre spaceward ho and also pga tour golf civilization and more these are again only from personal experience use the sound manager and work fine on all machines the more of the story is to developers don t cheat really i am absolutely positively not allowed to do what i am about to do but i m going say it anyway stop cheating on sound really soon you will be sorry as even those without external speakers will be disappointed with your sound on future hardware the grace period is about to end the sound manager is understandable now and works pretty well and will work even better soon so use it in conclusion to doug it isn t a hardware problem at least not a bug to jon it isn t a choice to developers as to whether they want to send sound to both channels if they do it the right way it is taken care of automatically if you cheat there is not way to make it work on all hardware have fun disclaimer number i don t work on sound here at apple i m just pretty well informed so don t write me with sound questions disclaimer number if it says up above that i wrote anything like the grace period is about to end then it is a bug in your news feed since i am catagorically not allowed to say anything like that you know what i mean disclaimer number i don t speak for apple just me steve bollinger
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook with a math coprocessor i really want to buy a powerbook and would like one that can run mathematica so i need a coprocessor but i can not afford a pb who can is it possible to put a mcp in a pb the guy at the bookstore says no but i didn t think he had too much of a clue please respond by e mail ross sbphy physics ucsb edu thanks in advance richard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi in article pebi zephyr aem umn edu pebi aem umn edu peter a bidian writes hi i bought a while ago a cache card w fpu from techworks it was i think that was the cheapest i ever saw as of last week mac s place had the applied engineering quicksilver card k cache one pds slot socket for fpu on sale for without fpu regular price is no idea if this is still going on but i can get the phone no if anyone is interested i found their ad in macuser jim burmeister no relation to mac s place except as a satisfied customer jimb csd harris com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pds cards for the lciii are there any pds expansion cards out there that specifically take advantage of the lciii s bit data path and mhz clock speed if they exist are they significantly faster than the lc lcii versions farul ghazali columbia university in the city of new york
comp.sys.mac.hardware	i need modem selection help especially vocabulary i ve recently ordered a centris and need to decide on which modem to buy i m pretty sure i want to get a fax data modem that can run at k but is it worth it i ll primarily only be conversing over compuserve or some other link to the internet but i m not sure if those systems can supply me with data at k another question i have is in some of the modem lingo out there i understand baud rates but what does v and v bis mean i could really use some suggestions as to what a good modem for around would be and why it would be a good choice thanks for your time dave bell dbell coral bucknell edu those who forget the past are condemned to re live it duncan macleod
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pc syquest on a mac in article qsk u d l usenet ins cwru edu rcs po cwru edu robert c sprecher writes is it possible ie via creative cable splicing or whatever to hook a syquest mb removable drive to a mac is there any difference with the guts of the drive or is it just cable differences thanks rob rob sprecher rcs po cwru edu many companies package syquest drives for the mac already so unless you are using one for the ibm world id buy a mac ready config j
comp.sys.mac.hardware	trouble w vga displays i m currently having trouble connecting my pb to a true blue ibm model vga monitor the display is bearly readable but all the details are seperated into yellow and red colors ie a window will have two images one in yellow and a ghost image in red the background is also a little greenish i read some time ago before i ever thought i would hook my mac up to a vga screen about an incompatability with some vga monitors due to the sync on green signal does this sound like it could be the same demon i also read that there are both hardware putting a diode on the green signal solution and a software solution to this problem i don t the details does somebody have them the can e mail to me or post them i checked all the faq s for this and didn t find anything about it did i miss it somewhere this sure seems that it would be a good thing to have in one thanks for any replys charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s in article quod i n menudo uh edu sunnyt coding bchs uh edu wrote in article apr newsgate sps mot com rjacks austlcm sps mot com rodney jacks writes i would really like to get one of the new cd i cdrom drives for my c but my local apple doesn t know when they will be available he doesn t even have a part number yet does anyone know what the part number for this drive is and when it will be available my apple dealer suggested i buy one of the cd external drives but i don t want to pay extra for a case power supply i m not going to use rodney jacks rjacks austlcm sps mot com while there may not be a part number for the cd i drive i have seen a part number for the bezel kit a new front panel with the slot in it through which you insert the cd the document which i got from the announcement at our apple office states the drive kit and bezel kits are separate items and the bezel kit has an srp of fro the c the external unit may be a better deal after all bob brickman robrick erenj com disclaimer the preceding represent my personal opinions and do not reflect the opinions policies or practices of my employer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re full page pb screen in article mfohvgq wbme yado andrew cmu edu michael t callihan mc o andrew cmu edu writes hi i am working on a project for my marketing class and i d like to ask your help the assignment is to come up with a product and create a marketing plan for it technical issues are not terribly important at this point i m not surprised to learn that technical issues are not terribly important to anyone working on a marketing plan wls
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris problem the problem is this after starting up my machine it gives a high pitched sound once at the desktop also it only does it when the mouse is up or a menu is not showing as if i click the mouse the noise goes away for the amount of time the mouse is down also this problem only happens for about minutes please let me know if you know what this is it sounds like it is coming form the power supply please post here and email me tjacobs bvsd co edu thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re se rom gosh i wish people would read the postings that they are following up to in article c pmsv jtp wyvern wyvern com dashley wyvern wyvern com doug ashley writes seanmcd ac dal ca writes in article wgwc pdl y netcom com wgw netcom com william g wright writes anyway i was hoping someone knowledgeable about mac internals could set me straight is it simply impossible for a mac se to print grayscale or could to use the grayscale features i believe you need a mac equipped with colour quickdraw i was told this somewhere or other but it s i think you will find that the mac se can print grayscale images loaded with the proper software however the mac se cannot display grayscale on the original poster w g wright posted an item saying that he had bought a new wizz bang laser printer from apple a select i think which can print grayscale he then said that he cannot print grayscale from his se computer and also that all the experts he has dealt with agree that it is not possible this is the one major bugbear about doing a rd party se upgrade compared to apple s se to se upgrade you will never be able to run color quickdraw it is color quickdraw that controls color and grayscale ses can print some colour this is because quickdraw the original non colour version has the right hooks for eight colours some of you will remember the scsigraph solution to getting a colour screen for your se i think that it gave you sixteen colours by dithering or something there is no reason that apple couldn t release software patches for older computers there are lots of mac pluses classics and ses that have been upgraded to and processors which should be perfectly able to deal with color quickdraw but they wont and rd parties are having a difficult time in duplicating the mac s roms i e nutek et al just one caveat i would have thought that if you were printing a postscript grayscale image onto a postscript grayscale printer that you would be able to do so whatever mac you were using and i am pretty sure that the select is not a postscript printer correct me if i m wrong phil ryan melbourne australia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra case source wanted hello all if anyone knows of a place to get the case to hold the power supply and motherboard of a quadra please let me know i have tried some mail order places and some local stores both groups would prefer that i part with over to get just the case in my eyes this seems about to much any comments i currently own the guts of a please email me or post to this group w info thanks in advance andy
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re accelerating the macplus also if someone would recommend another accelerator for the macplus i d like to hear about it thanks for any time and effort you expend on this karl try looking at the brainstorm accelerator for the plus i believe it is the best solution because of the performance and price why spend upgrading a computer that is only worth the brainstorm accelerator is around it speeds up the internal clock speed to mhz that may not seem like much but it also speeds up scsi transfers i think that feature is unique to brainstorm check it out david lau lau aerospace aero org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	simm vs dram can anyone tell me what the difference is between a k dram chip and a k simm i need the former i think to add memory to my laserwriter ls someone is offering to sell me k simms he removed from an se but i have a feeling this may not be the correct form of memory the sockets in the laserwriter look like they want the spidery shaped chips there are sockets each with as i recall pins arranged in two rows of believe it or not i ve never actually seen a simm help appreciated arthur greene internet arthur greene p f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	voice messaging you macinators who have used these voice messaging fax data modems i have a question first what brand names do you recommend i am mostly interested in the voice messaging and fax part is the voice part as reliable and understandable as the sellers claim approximately how much hard drive space does an average day of callers take up if they speak for one minute any feed back would be appreciated my company is looking at buying one or two hey i may buy one myself too thanks in advance don don new jr dnew du edu another great mind university of denver ruined chemistry department by denver co higher education
comp.sys.mac.hardware	si clock poll final call a fair number of brave souls who upgraded their si clock oscillator have shared their experiences for this poll please send a brief message detailing your experiences with the procedure top speed attained cpu rated speed add on cards and adapters heat sinks hour of usage per day floppy disk functionality with and m floppies are especially requested i will be summarizing in the next two days so please add to the network knowledge base if you have done the clock upgrade and haven t answered this poll thanks guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	buying a high speed v everything modem just a quick summary of recent findings re high speed modems top three contenders seem to be at t paradyne zyxel and us robotics zyxel has the biggest cult following and can be had for under but i ignored it because i need something with mac software which will work without any tweaking the at t dataport earns nearly unanimous praises for reliability they are backordered at the moment probably because of the special price in effect until may its fax capabilities are worse than that of the other two modems warning at t ads say that the modem comes with a mac kit cables all and has lifetime warranty this applies only when you order directly from paradyne i called elektek one of the distributors and they wanted to charge me for cable and gave only year warranty usr sportster for the mac is also highly but not as highly recommended it s only from clubmac and if you are willing to roll your own cable and don t care about the faxstf software you can get the generic model from pc outlets for all this assuming that you don t have a rich uncle and can t afford a motorola codex i ended up ordering the dataport we ll see how it works in two weeks or so eric behr illinois state university mathematics department behr math ilstu edu or behr ilstu bitnet please avoid
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re stereo sound problem on mac games thanks steve for your helpful and informative comments on mac stereo sound too bad some developers aren t addressing the problem this did make my trusty old mac ii superior to the quadra i replaced it with in one way though thanks doug
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re jump starting a mac ii apple dealerships once had kits to replace the soldered in batteries with a battery holder real easy to install but it does require some soldering
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re whither quickdraw performance across product line in daves daves xetron com dave steele writes the fastest quickdraw color performing computer apple makes is the drumroll please lciii and the color classic ranks right up there with the quadra line the centris line pales in comparison does anybody know the differences in these computers that explains the disparity in graphics processor performance i think you are suffering from some alignment or color table or whatever problems if a color classic is as fast as a quadra rendering to screen what screen card you use does of course matter much built in video is almost always faster than nubus or you measured scroll entire screen where the color classic had a vram screen in bit color and the quadra had a bit screen on nubus cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe this sig less than lines improve the usenet s n ratio
comp.sys.mac.hardware	eight mb ns simms ea o b o a friend of mine has eight mb ns simms for sale for each or best offer since techworks sells these puppies for ea you may want to contact him directly at steve epstein days evenings thanks bruce l from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitor for lciii jeff i have answers to both of your questions first i recommend the sony cpd monitor it is a trinitron vga monitor but it is designed specifically for use with the lc it works only with macs with specific video capabilities which means only the lc s and anything after the ci all it takes is a mac vga cable i recommend one from james engineering which is about these cost about as compared to the much higher prices of comparable monitors because they are not multisynch i have used one for half a year and i love it second i have used syex and found them to be decent i had a backorder on a supra modem which i cancelled they were helpful in explaining the reasons why there were delays and they had supra s number ready for me the only complaint was that they did not always return my calls i have been told that the cpd is selling for from j r s i think syex is a little more but i don t know david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	k vram for sale lc or lcii i have a k vram chip for sale worked fine in my lcii and will give colors on x size screen asking i ll cover postage speaking of which does anyone know what the best way to send a chip is i have a plastic antistatic sleeve but what s the best way to send it in an envelope first class all info appreciated bill spaceman lee p o box yale station new haven ct
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare the real question here in my opinion is what motorola processors running system on a mac are comparable to what intel processors running windows on a pc i recall there being a conversation here that a running windows benchmarks at about the same speed as mhz in system i don t know if that is true but i would love to hear if anyone has any technical data on this david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac numbers here s a list of numbers i have compiled from other sources anybody got anything to add it s formatted for alpha and looks fine for me so don t complain if it doesn t look good to you adobe fax info aldus alladin altsys apda apple prog dev assoc apple computer apple customer non tech assistance aps alliance peripheral sys asd softwae fax berkeley systems cayman systems ce software claris claris software cl aris compatible systems computer associates c a connectix dataviz dayna deltapoint deneba dr mac fifth generation greatwave icom simulations macavenue macconnection macland macromind mac s place macwarehouse microcom microsoft educational general sales and services then punch technical assistance university shiva silicon beach symantec the mac zone chip merchant clearpoint computers clubmac clu bmac delta research labs diamond dynamic electronics etc global village telecom mac adb modems lifetime memory llb macproducts usa mac disk macproducts mac usa megabyte memory products memory international memory plus plus micro electronic tech newer technology peripheral outlet psi quadmation shecom computers sii micros south coast electronics stratum technologies technology works texas macstuf mac stuf third wave computing third wave turbo technologies directory assistance for numbers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how to reach micron does anyone know how to reach micron i am interested in getting some specifics about what types of monitors work with their micron xceed card for the se either e mail or phone number would be prefered or if you have the answers to my questions i d appreciate a reply thanks julia hsieh my opinions are not intended to reflect hsieh ipld hac com those of hughes aircraft company
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can i remove the under my daughterboard upgrade the subject says what i would like to do here are the details i have a ke with the macrescue upgrade board that makes it the equivalent of a plus system and macenvy both identify it as such the macrescue board clips onto the on the mb it also has a itself periodically i have to remove the clip not an entirely easy thing to do and clean the legs of the larry pina s book asserts that this is occasionally a problem with snap on upgrades the s legs will oxidize causing unusual system errors well that s me so i would like to do something permanent and i think it would be fairly easy to put a socket in where the currently is and modify the macrescue board to plug in what i m not sure of is whether it will work it seems to me that the two s aren t acting independently so removing one shouldn t have any effect on the performance of my mac i m about sure will someone provide the extra erik erik cheshire oxy edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	syquest i remember someone mention about a meg syquest has anyone else heard anything about this i d be interested in the cost per megabyte and the approximate cost of the drive itself and how they compare to the bernoulli
comp.sys.mac.hardware	word printing to iig we have a user that has word and is using symbols such as pi and other mathematic sysmbols plus doing fractions etc the document shows up on the screen with no problems looks fine when she tries to print it on a iig the pi changes to an upside down caret and several other symbols change to double quotes at bottom of character plus some little circles appear between words of the fractions instead of spaces this happens on a iig laser printer tried it on serveral macs and two different iig s prints fine on an nt and ntx laser printers what s wrong thanks for any help in advance gary gary weis university computer center hal greer boulevard huntington west virginia phone fax internet gary marshall wvnet edu bitnet gary marshall ucc net gary
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra sound the quadra goes thru extensive initalize routines of its hardware read s pram obtains all info from last session including the volume setting and then executes the sound procedure for the startup sound and wait s on the scsi controller to respond to the boot up code if the dram produces an error or a registers cannot be read from a device or the device corrupts that address data or control paths then if it is possible the firmware branchs to another sound routine that produces the sad mac sound this is a general breifing of the start up procedure of a typical mac if you cannot control the volume of the quadra even at boot up then i feel there is something incorrect with the logic board my quadra does not show the problems you are having steve h
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s sunnyt coding bchs uh edu writes the cd external is already shipping and has been shipping for quite awhile now demand for the units are high so they are pretty rare hm i ve got my cd drive since i ve also heard rumors that they are bundled with a couple of cd s but i can t confirm it indeed cds are bundled with it you usually get nine cds with demos of applications games photos etc i have compiled a list of these and posted it to alt cdrom i will post an updated version of this list rsn sven
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adding vram to quadra i want to go from k to m vram on my quadra how many k simms do i need to buy is the current k soldered on the board or do i need to take out the current vram before i add more thanks wesley stuart jones wesley stuart jones jonesw res wes mot com wstuartj ecn purdue edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help ff error at power up a mac plus i m getting a sad mac icon on a black screen with the error code ff could someone please tell me what s wrong memory thanks a lot i d appreciate it infinitely nestor michelena
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pb questions well folks my mac plus finally gave up the ghost this weekend after starting life as a k way back in sooo i m in the market for a new machine a bit sooner than i intended to be i m looking into picking up a powerbook or maybe and have a bunch of questions that hopefully somebody can answer does anybody know any dirt on when the next round of powerbook introductions are expected i d heard the c was supposed to make an appearence this summer but haven t heard anymore on it and since i don t have access to macleak i was wondering if anybody out there had more info has anybody heard rumors about price drops to the powerbook line like the ones the duo s just went through recently what s the impression of the display on the i could probably swing a if i got the mb disk rather than the but i don t really have a feel for how much better the display is yea it looks great in the store but is that all wow or is it really that good could i solicit some opinions of people who use the and day to day on if its worth taking the disk size and money hit to get the active display i realize this is a real subjective question but i ve only played around with the machines in a computer store breifly and figured the opinions of somebody who actually uses the machine daily might prove helpful how well does hellcats perform thanks a bunch in advance for any info if you could email i ll post a summary news reading time is at a premium with finals just around the corner tom willis twillis ecn purdue edu purdue electrical engineering convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies f w nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems in article katinka fenk wau nl katinka van der linden writes i would like more info on this if anybody has it our exabyte tapedrive has never been working from the quadra we have been trying it since september replaced cabling inits i don t know what all all the industry experts we phoned the tapedrive dealer our apple dealer the software dealer all say it s our fault or they don t know the last thing they said was that we needed a special quadra scsi terminator anybody know more thanks in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark h nodine wrote in article c l p qz news udel edu johnston me udel edu bill johnston writes in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark h nodine writes i don t know about the specific problem mentioned in your message but i definitely had scsi problems between my q and my venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge drives my solution was to get silverlining none of the loops that involved blind writes worked to the drives in fact the only loop that worked was the macintosh software loop whatever that means i doubt this is a quadra specific problem i had to get rid of my venerable bernoulli last year with enough cartridges purchased at each to make the whole thing worth more than my whole computer the tech support guys at ocean microsystems suggested that some third party drivers might fix the problem in my case the cartridges wouldn t format mount partition for a ux all i know is that the megadrives worked perfectly on both my mac plus and my powerbook it was for this reason i assumed the problem had something to do with the quadra even with the quadra they mostly worked ok the problem occurred when i ejected a cartridge from a drive it would start popping up dialog boxes saying this cartridge must be formatted with jasmine driveware even though there was no cartridge in the drive mark i have been using the pli sony mo drive and now a sharp color scanner using standard scsi cables and standard terminator on my q no problems if you were using a iifx that might be another story make sure there is only one terminator in the cabling and it must be at the end some boxes have internal terminators some can be switched out and others are socketted these count if the box with internal terminations cannot be put on the end to terminate the cabling they have to be disabled ie switched out or pulled out of their sockets if you have boxes with internal terminations the terminations in one box has to be disabled etc i am sure that this has been covered by the experts my experience with scsi boxes that connect to the mac indicates that they must have some software package for the mac to talk to them my pli mo drive and sharp scanner has one for each good luck art beattie i only speak for myself
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macplus home brew acceler question ha all this talk about changing the clock speed of the q makes me ask if i replaced the mhz in my plus with a mhz with a mhz clock occilater of its own not shared by the rest of the mac just the new mhz would my mac work and if it would work would you think there where be any problems with sound vidio scsi it seems like a simple solution to keepa dead slow mechine a live a little longer oh if this would not work any idears on how to make it work thanks alex arp ritvax isc rit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	driver i have an old jasmine drive which i cannot use with my new system my understanding is that i have to upsate the driver with a more modern one in order to gain compatability with system does anyone know of an inexpensive program to do this i have seen formatters for buit have no idea if they will work i have another ancient device this one a tape drive for which the back utility freezes the system if i try to use it the drive is a jasmine direct tape bought used for w tapes techmar mechanism essentially i have the same question as above anyone know of an inexpensive beckup utility i can use with system all help and advice appriciated
comp.sys.mac.hardware	calling all mac gurus question for those familiar with quadra vram i put k vram simms in my quadra in the slots closest to the ram simm slots and i got no results whatsoever i have been told that the built in video should support at least bit and maybe bit color on a macintosh color display however the monitors control panel still lists bit colors as the highest possible does it make any difference which slots you put the simms in do you have to do something to activate them do you have to do something to the monitors control panel btw i am running system with megs of ram charles p cox jr computer engineering case western reserve university cpc po cwru edu cox snowhite eeap cwru edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re non apple mini docks available in article c pc f n i rahul net jonathan mecca epri com writes a a deguzman deguzman after math uiuc edu wrote my boss is considering the purchase of a powerbook or duo he is leaning towards a because of the math coprocessor for mathematica but would get a duo if he could find a mini dock with a coprocessor have any third parties announced such a beast i believe that e machines might produce something of this nature yes e machines makes two mini docks the powerlink presente and the powerlink desknet the presenter offers a variety of video out options including ntsc rgb and svga it also has sound out floppy drive port and a power port unfortunately no scsi port and it blocks the serial port the desknet has the standard ports plus built in ethernet alas none of these have an fpu in the future rasterops is putting out a mini dock but the name escapes me now it is supposed to support bit color and quadra comparable video speed no idea if it has an fpu hope this helps beth corbo
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re syquest in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu anthony s kim writes i remember someone mention about a meg syquest has anyone else heard anything about this i d be interested in the cost per megabyte and the approximate cost of the drive itself and how they compare to the bernoulli i think you must be talking about the syquest code named mesa i believe it is a winchester technology drive pretty much like the other syquest drives in terms of how it works according to the latest macleak the drive has a ms access time mb s sustained throughput these figures are from memory so they could be slightly off but they give you an idea of performance nonetheless the drive was originally released for the pc and just recently was released for the mac world don t ask me what the differences are and through they are currently in limited supply according to a syquest rep they are in the process of ramping up for mass production i have already seen them advertised by a number of manufacturers in macleak including pli massmicro clubmac and macwarehouse s poweruser the pli and massmicro units are priced at just around the lesser name brands are going for around for an external drive cartridges which hold mb sell for about each at these prices the drives and cartridges are cheaper and better performing than the mb drives cost per megabyte compares favorably with other cartridge drives and bernoulli drives but for large amounts of data optical is still cheaper and more reliable personally i m excited by the new drive and look forward to getting my hands on one chris wand egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity frank leahy
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s interestingly enough the cdrom i that came with my quadra has only disks system install kodak photo cd sampler alice to ocean cdrom titles application demos mozart dissonant quartet nautilus apple chronicles has anyone else noticed that they got less than everyone seems to be getting with the external what i really feel i missed out on is what is supposed to a fantastic games demo disk i have heard that people have gotten up to disks with their drive i assume they get the titles above plus cinderella and the games demo cdrom any comments and experiences should i call apple to complain derek thewho plume mit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ntsc and the mac stuff deleted also i am not interested in quicktime i would merely like to use my mac as a television from time to time i have a nice sony monitor and i would like to use it as a second tv when my wife is watching sitcoms on our regular tv other stuff deleted wouldn t it be cheaper to just buy a little fourteen inch colour tv just curious george micahels jeff scott montreal que canada scott silverbullet cam org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac ibm info version send follow ups to comp sys mac advocacy sorry about the header but the pnews here does not let one easily change the headers and i gave up after a year of trying this sheet is also available by ftp on sumex aim stanford edu in the info mac report as mac ibm compare txt mac ibm info version the reason for this general data sheet is to consolidate and condense the information out there so that people in both camps can be clear and accurate about what they are saying about their machines since computer technology is always changing there are always going to be points in which the sheet will be lacking or incorrect on information so please just don t say the sheet is incomplete or incorrect but also give me clear and concise information to make the needed corrections all prices are in us dollars to keep this data sheet organized please provide if possible article citations for the information provided or corrected and keep the opinions to a minimum as this is a general data sheet keep the info provided simple so i can understand what is being talked about and can explain it to others finally keep the information relevant to the section corrected for example os code in rom is software contained in hardware so no more of the but it is supported in os disk software data for the hardware section please thank you note for proper reading off line this document should be in point monaco special thanks to andrew aardvark ucs uoknor edu chihuahua charlie andrew frip wv tek com andrew klossner bell peter yale edu peter bell bcoleman hayes com bill coleman cj andrew cmu edu carl b jabido d jwa nada kth se jon wtte ephraim think com ephraim vishniac fj andrew cmu edu faisal nameer jawdat gsidler cafe eecs nwu edu gabriel sidler julian deepthnk kiwi gen nz julian harris erick krueger um cc umich edu krueger engin umich edu matt wardsgi med yale edu matt healy mark bilpin co uk mark allerton jokim jarthur claremont edu john h kim mem jhufos pha jhu edu mel martinez nan matt ksu ksu edu nan zou pwagner us oracle com s fuller iastate edu strobl gmd de wolfgang strobl jkirvin pafosu hq af mil phill ichips intel com shaikha duvm ocs drexel edu sxjcb orca alaska edu jay c beavers lewis kawecki novell com lamont catfish rtsg mot com bradley lamont cerro mbcl rutgers edu cerro joseph a mpark utmem utmem edu mel park logullo applelink apple com jeff logullo zrai hou amoco com robert irlbeck and mikew apple com for providing some of the information that made this list possible contents cpus hardware monitor support expansion operating system os number crunching networking printing the cpus note i am only showing motorola intel cpus used in mac and most ibm pc clone machines for example since apple never used the motorola and in the mac these chips are not listed years only appear with dead cpus and indicate first to last year used as a cpu cache note both ibm and mac use caches external to the cpus these external caches increase the speed of the cpu but are not a part of it in most of the present macs there are external caches built in while with ibm they are optional though machines are generally sold with them installed since there are many different external caches cpu mac and ibm scsi video disk and static ram mac each having a different effect on cpu performance and they are machine kb static ram cache in iici iifx and iivx seller cache card installed in some iicis or expansion iici cache cards go up to kb dependent i have decided to leave them out of the list note alu is industry s de facto standard for cpu bit classification ibm alu registers external cpu features cpu bus address cache notes none none segmenting none protected mode none mmu bit protected mode sx one k fpu one k fpu dx one k doubled internal clock rate dx being demoed mhz mhz and mhz planned pentium k code cisc chip with risc like k data features issue superscalar p write back bit fpu path pipelining speed specint specfp sx chip with bit internal bit external architecture and sx chips can address to mb maximum ram sl low power v sx with built in power management used mainly on laptops slc ibm v sx with a k on chip cache added john h kim as far as john h kim knows it is only used on ibm models slc neither of two chips that have this name have a fpu cyrix basically sx in sx socket with k cache and improved integer math speed ibm equivalent to the sx except it has a k on chip cache ex for dx chip runs mhz rest of machine runs at mhz pc week pc mag the latest in a line of cisc chips pc mag samples released march but machines will not be announced until at least may pc week a cpu systems and up pc mag mac alu registers external cpu features cpu bus address cache notes none mb limit code parallel processing two mmu k burst mode lc two k fpu two k mmu fpu pipelining doubled internal clock rate development discontinued in favor of branch a better fpu target superscaler pipelining cache line bursts equivalent capabilities speeds to pentium includes data and instruction code caches the lc have built in caches for both mac designs created a mb limit the has clocks an internal processor clock pclk that is x freq of external bus clock bclk which is the one used to rate the chips bradley lamont motorola data book some compilers produce programs sensitive to the pclk and so they act as if the was a clock doubler chip but this very compiler and program dependent compliers maybe written to allow programs to take consitant advantage of the s pclk in the future as it is now studies such as one in a byte article which showed and roughly dx are very dependent on the machine os and programs tested and as such are not representative of general performance motorola claims pc week as the powerpcs are to be in both ibm and mac machines i have listed them separately to eliminate redundancy they are motorola cpu risc chips powerpc alu registers external cpu features cpu bus address cache notes mc int k speed specint fp combined specfp i d mc low power mc for desktop portable systems out by end of mc high performance mc for high end machines out by st q mc int k out by mid fp combined i d pc week pc mag select venders were sent sample mc chips by motorola pc week and some nubus boards containing early samples of powerpc have been given to apple s a list developers pc week macweek mc mhz mc mhz pc week systems with versions out by mid pc week cpus comparison list as a general rule of thumb motorola chips are faster than intel chips at the same frequency dx but intel has chips at higher frequencies than motorola so this evens out the macintosh bible th ed supports the comparisons between intel and motorola chips for the and above bit vs bit chip data path address lines data address registers the mb limit on the macs brings it down to the and lower chips otherwise it would compare to the hardware segmenting vs s bit alu and these chips come have no usable built in mmu unlike their successors the hardware segmenting s protected mode is used by os and windows x the use of the hardware segmenting and their bit nature put the between the and in features and the lc s bit data path strenghthens the comparison two bit chips with mmus and protected memory a ux is at present the only mac os to use the s protected memory feature for apps system x uses this feature to protect a ram disk created by the memory control panel but this is supported only on powerbooks and quadras the color classic and lcii bit hardware data paths makes the s in them comparative to sxs sx lc same as and without the fpu used as a low cost solution for people who do not need the fpu only with programs sensitive to pclk pipelining does the lc behave like dx fpu or a dx sx two bit microprocessors with built in fpu mmu k internal cache which is implemented as two k caches in the and one in the only with programs sensitive to pclk pipelining does the behave like a dx pentium both are planned to be superscalar but both have heat problems these chips may flounder against the cheaper pc week pc mag earlier released pc week macweek pc week less leat producing degrees f for pentium pc mag and partly ported to powerpc chips powerpc powerpc this cpu line is planned to run programs from dos windows x os and mac os on top of poweropen a ux unix and later pink taligent os by using emulators or if necessary the oses themselves in a shell a k how softpc or os does dos hardware in an effort to remove the reconfiguring the system almost every time you add something requirement for add in cards drivers video and operating systems in the ibm world intel microsoft and other hardware and software developers are working out plug and play standards pc week color support display mac mhz pixel clock standard all present macs support the use of bit color through bit color quickdraw in rom bit color quickdraw allows an almost transparent capability to display and edit x bit images in y bit color and retain all the colors of y bit color where x and y independently are or regardless of monitor resolution dpi color to dpi palettebook or monitor type including autosynchronous vga mcga and svga monitors with ranges including hz vertically and khz horizontally and only a hardware video adaptor macuser aug older machines that supported color se ii iix and iicx had only bit color in rom and needed a software patch to use bit color macuser special to keep costs down and speed up most macs have only or bit display capability built in but most of those can be expanded to display bit color presently quickdraw is optimized for dpi display quickdraw qx will change this in addition quickdraw allows in macs with a nubus slot more then one monitor to be used in any combination from two monitors showing the same thing to multiple monitors acting as one large large monitor with any degree of overlap of the pictures vram video ram standard for present non powerbook mac s handling of built in video from a bit color palette vram provided runs a bit color x display expandable to bit color or a bit x display sound output standard in all macs since the k stereo sound became standard with the se ibm even though pcs have rom bios definitions of how the operating system interacts with the video hardware nan zou the use of drivers bypassing bios video hareware inconsitancies see super vga below and nonstanderzation of clone bios have left resolution of video display hardware os and program interaction up to the os and video hardware in question faisal nameer jawdat in addition ibm and clone makers never bothered to provide a standard hardware mechanism for software to determine what display mode is actually present matt healy nor a standardized screen drawing toolbox like mac s qd as a result the os must be very well written to detect some modes especially with some third party cards or to use them consitantly at present things are so dependent on the interaction of the program os print driver and monitor card that editing bit pictures regardless of color mode os and monitor type card combination as one can do on the mac is impossible with an ibm for example one cannot edit a bit color picture done on a os with a svga monitor on a with vga bit color palette and dos and still have all the colors one started out with later ibm machines will have integrated graphics accelerators faster processors and modular upgradeability and may have built in sound cards cd rom and ethernet pc week mda monocrome display adapter original character mapped video mode no graphics x text cga color graphics array x colors or x b w color palette bad for the eyes ega enhanced graphics array x colors from color palette and some lower res some versions could run at colors bearable on the eyes vga video graphics array x at colors x at colors and some others these two are the most commonly used all modes have a k clut from a to bit ibm or a bit mac color palette mhz pixel clock mel martinez monitors use analog input incompatible with ttl signals from ega cga etc mcga multi color graphics array subset of vga that provides all the features of mda cga but lacks some ega and vga modes like vga x x dictionary of computer terms dct common on the initial ps implementation from ibm and some ps models svga super vga this is not a standard in the way the others were but instead was a catch all category for a group of video cards as such with each manufacturer using their own implementation scheme svga was chaos with people debating as to what is svga and what is not in an effort to make svga more of a standard vesa was established and is used in the newer units but things are still a mess video is either k or m today resolution of x and x at and colors are common newer ones since have the sierra hicolor ramdac giving bit colors at x some of the very newer ones can do bits per pixel usually at x speedwise too much variation some very slow western digital paradise based for example some very fast s c based for example some are so so like tseng et a very popular chipset some limiting factors overcome by mhz vl bus s linear address mapping were mhz isa bus at architecture where the cpu looks at the card through a k window etc other non svga standards a ibm s own standard interlacing graphics accelerator with graphics functions like linedraw polygon fill etc in hardware some clone implementations from ati are the fastest video available today though some clone models do not have interlacing tms high end graphics co processors usually some do bit speeds up vector oriented graphics like cad xga extended graphics array newer and faster than a only available for mca bus based ps s clones are coming out soon emulates vga ega and cga dct max resolution at x x b same as a also some bpp modes xga accelerates graphics functions up to times faster than standard vga in windows and os including line draws bit and pixel block transfers area fills masking and x y addressing has an intelligent way to detect and co exist with other xga cards so multiple desktops like on the mac may not be far away since this is an architecture its resolution and color depth isn t fixed ibm implements only bit color while other companies can have bit color through ibm technical licenses refresh rates up to hz ensures flicker free rock solid images to reduce visual discomfort and is vga compatible up to x on os some monitor types usable by mac see mac section above for specific details expansion both mac ibm scsi only external device expansion interface common to both mac and ibm allows the use of any device hard drive printer scanner nubus card expansion mac plus only some monitors and cd rom main problem there are a lot of external devices which are internal terminated which causes problems for more then two devises off the scsi port a scsi chain is supposed to be terminated only at the begining and at the end any other set up causes problems for either mac or ibm scsi devices per scsi controller bit asynchronous mb s ave and synchronous mb s max transfers difference is due to scsi software drivers fast scsi is a misname for bit scsi in scsi mode see scsi for details scsi devices per scsi controller in scsi mode scsi is fully scsi compliant and bit scsi tends to be implemented as a very fast scsi since it does not require the different controller interfaces in hardware and software that and bit scsi do transfer speeds are mb s with mb s burst bit mb s with mb s burst bit and mb s with mb s burst bit wide and fast since bit scsi can use scsi software drivers and hardware at bit scsi speeds and as such is limited to devices sometimes it is mistakenly called fast scsi bit fast scsi requires a scsi software driver and scsi electronics but can still use the scsi ports wide bit and bit scsi require a different scsi port electronics and software driver from scsi which makes them more expensive than other scsi interfaces mac scsi asynchronous scsi built in standard since the plus even though apple developed some specifications for scsi controlers the os scsi manager needs to be rewritten to take full advantage of the features of both scsi interfaces as a result present scsi macs use bit scsi as a fast asynchronous scsi presently quadras are the only macs with a scsi controller chip built in digital review oct v n p though they lack some other parts of the hardware like the wide scsi port interface since other macs require a nubus card to use scsi older nubus macs had a bottleneck due to the speed of the nubus and cpu rumor some cyclone macs june will come with a wide fast scsi port standard and have a rewritten os scsi manager ibm scsi scsi is not too wide spread yet generally not bundled with systems except as add on eisa and vesa local bus adapters avalable like the mac bit scsi is used as a very fast scsi by most controllers out there unlike the mac ibm has no exact scsi controller specifications which results in added incompatibilities for scsi mac memory expansion with a few exceptions the mac has used non parity pin bit simm memory expansion since the plus while pin bit parity simms could be used in these macs only special iicis could make use of the parity feature by convension both simm types are called pin simms the iifx used pin parity simms the lc iii c and q all use a new pin simm that is accessable by bits at a time and is used in ibms the mac does a complete memory check at startup by writing reading every memory location if something is seriously wrong with a simm the mac will not boot and give a sound chord indicating what the problem is since macs made before feb managed memory baced on data path simms had to be installed in pairs bit or in sets of bit the centris and quadra eliminate this with a new memory management setup that allows memory to be upgraded one simm at a time if the simms are the same size are used then the memory is interleaved across the two simms resulting in a performance boost on ram access macworld apr printers adbs and modems built in interfaces standard monitor interface and sound input built in on most present macs pds available in se all present non powerbook macs bit se portable lc lc ii classic line and bit operates at cpu s mhz maximum through put data path in bytes cpu s mhz q c mhz mb s q q mhz mb s standardized with the lc and bus designs with an adapter one nubus card can be used in iisi and c problem some cards have timing dependency which slows through put down nubus mac ii bit mhz bus clock to transaction bus cycle ratio and contiguous hand shake transactions at mb s theoretical peak mb s built in on all modular macs except the lc series c and performa the se could be adapted to use this and there was even a mac plus scsi nubus supports every possible expansion from cpu to ethernet to dma nubus nubus mac ii back compatable mhz bus clock avg throughput mb s burst mode mb s future card designs will be instead of the old quickring a peer to peer bus used in parallel with nubus apple s vlbus architecture is identical to that of vlbus byte burst mode mb s byte in development cpu expansion handled either through the pds or the nubus unlike pds nubus cpu cards example radius rocket allow use of multiple processors at the same time this is like having two or more macs in the same box able to dual task or joinly process depending on the card or software involved each nubus card needs its own memory but most nubus cards of this type come with mb ram simms on the card standard ibm memory expansion parity simms non parity simms some newer models do a mac like simm memory check or a dozen or so different types of memory boards hd interfaces limited to hard drives by design or lack of development mfm modified frequency modulation rll run length limited only used with smaller mb hard drives ide integrated device electronics asynchronous mb s max and synchronous mb s max transfer currently the most common standard and is mainly used for medium sized drives can have more than one hard drive esdi enhanced small device interface mb s throughput generally considered better interface than scsi in many ways but not common enough for practical consideration outside of hard drives device choices are very limited compared to scsi bus interfaces new plug and play isa and eisa compatable cards may have problems working with old cards infoworld pc week vaporware isa bit interfaces common has bit data path limit which produces a mb limit for which there are software workarounds pc mag mb s byte uses edge triggered interrupts can t share them hence comes the irq conflict limited busmastering capabilities some cards aren t bandwidth limited com ports lpt ports game ports midi card etc while others are video and disk controllers dominant factor but it s showing its age most isa motherboard designs are bit pc world feb mca micro channel ibm s and bit bus allows use of more than one cpu in a computer dct and anything can talk to anything as fast as the two components involved can handle it never took off because it was incompatible with isa and eisa planned to be bus interface of ibm powerpc carl jabido eisa nubus mac ii is closest mac equivalent bit mhz burst mode mb s it also has the ability to self configure cards like mca and allows multiple bus masters sharable interrupt and dma channels and multiple cpu use vesa local bus vlb sometimes mistakenly refereed to as pds local bus standard runs at cpu clock rate burst modes mb s bit mb s bit byte limited to three slots but allows bus mastering and will coexist with either isa or eisa consitered ideal for video and disk i o dell has filled a claim that this violates one of their patents mel martinez quickring apple s faster mb s burst version of vlb architecture byte might show up in some ibm and powerpc machines byte in development pci intel s version of local bus that is intended to totally replace isa eisa mca in development oses assumes full installation print drivers fonts multifinder etc and multiple application use mac k to mb of os and hardware commands have been put into rom this allows apple to control its machine by putting key hooks for the mac os quickdraw menu commands print mouse scsi sound drivers etc in rom which require clone makers to use the rom chip or read rom on to disks which requires access to the proper mac since different macs have slightly different rom chips plus vs classic for example with key hooks for the os support interface in rom programers do not have to worry as much whether the disk os has the necessary hardware commands or that those commands are consitant and therefore can write smaller programs this also allows apple greater control over hardware software standards and that the disk os can be smaller and with some of the tookbox command code in rom with lower ram requirements then a totally disk based os macs use masked rom which is as fast as dram jon wtte single program usage base requirements mb and dd floppy cooperatively multitasking base requirements mb and hd floppy features a gui cooperative multitasker multifinder standard program interface standard stereo sound support snd network receiving part of appleshare software is bundled with the os has a mb ram barrier and is a bit os some third party products allow mb of virtual memory as long as real ram is below mb with print drivers l system for some macs that require system x x base requirements mb mb hard drive and de facto standard to run all features well mb mb hard drive and lowest present non portable mac configuration using up to mb this is everything on system disks of hard disk space this has features plus program linking within and between computers iac built in server capabilities filesharing can be used by older oses using appleshare client software and can be accessed by macs max is more speed practical iac requires x virtual memory in machines with mmu times real ram for least noticeable iisi speed degradation drag and drop quicktime built in truetype support supports sound input aiff and snd formats for most present machines can access up to gb of true ram and gb of virtual memory and is both a and bit os to use real ram beyond mb it must be in bit mode and on older machines requires the mode extension apple s last free os with worldscript support speedier and less ram usage than dot macweek pc week to run in bit mode on older machines it requires the mode or bit enabler extension marks the start of apple saling its mac os instead of allowing free upgrades bundled with new machines for x upgrades otherwise the installer has a bug that when upgrading it may keep some old system fonts from the previous system inside the system file this can eat up any ram benefits and cause other problems apple itself recommends removing all fonts from the system file a ux unix needs mb ram mb suggested mb hard drive and a or equivalent to run this bit preemptive multitasking os is large due to being unix and needing translators between it and the mac roms price note sound output was supported in oses to by many formats including the following snd wave asnd fssd qssn smsd soun dc d and dcfl in the sound manager was optimized for the sound standards snd and aiff which causes some playback problems for the old formats though most still play ibm machiness have little gui code data and hooks present in hardware for programmers to work with so most of the coding must be provided in the os since hard disks were slow the disk os code is read into ram in addition what little rom code there is also read into ram a process called shadow rom this results in faster implementation since ram is faster then proms or eproms having most of the os code on disk has the advantage of being able to better optimize the code given a certain piece or collection of hardware which is harder with a rom based system due to the patches needed in addition it reduces the need for and size of patches if a major revision of the hardware support is needed side note the ftc charged that microsoft formed a os trust by not providing all feature documentation for its oses to developers outside ms and designing its windows and dos apps to fail under os undocumented windows and there is deliberate code in windows nt beta which causes the install to abort if os boot manager is present gregory hicks info ibmpc digest v due to a conflict of intrest by one member the vote of the ftc judicial council for action against microsoft was a tie which resulted in no action rumors the ftc will presue the matter likely to the point of choosing a new member or whole new council in addition the government has turned down microsoft s copyright of windows which would allow it to charge a fee for developers using their hooks pc week microsoft oses dos has a k barrier with its own memory manager a mb barrier with third party memory managers this bit os requires that each program must provide its own print drivers and be bit programs need to be dos protected mode interface dpmi compliant and running on a dx bit protected mode to break these barriers contains the gui shell present in dos dos dos with the added features of a built in file compresion disk defragmenter debugger for the config sys file it needs a module for networking cost through after that byte april dos bit dos in development pc week window runs on top of dos breaks k and m barriers but still has to deal with dos file structure base requirements mb floppy and to run well mb hard drive sx and fast display adapter bit has the equivalent of mac s qd called windows gdi graphics device interface this does not have a consistent application interface like early mac programs nor a very large program base compared to dos and still tends to slow the machine down info ibmpc digest v with speed is more dependent on the display adapter then on the cpu bill coleman window programs tend to be disk and memory hogs compared to their dos counterparts byte april window a faster version of window with better memory managment base requirements mb hard drive and a to run well mb hard drive sx apple plans to release its print drivers for this pc week windows for workgroups to run well mb ram and dx pc world feb intermediary between win and windows nt it is basically windows with built in peer to peer networking support windows nt beta release takes about mb of disk space including the swap file and mb ram betas are notorious for ram usage especially in the interaction between debuging code and program compliers hence the reports of mb requirements released version supposed to need mb ram but gates himself now recommends mb ram pc week this bit os has protected mode multitasking multithreading symmetric multiprocessing a recoverable file system and bit gdi has built in networking that is osf dce compliant and can handle up to gb of ram even though some people see a july release date infoworld nov rumor is that the final version will not be available before oct infoworld may july vaporware or th quarter pc week windows upgrades will be otherwise pc week other oses pc dos ibm s version of dos it runs windows much faster then dos due to faster file i o and video handling infoworld feb dr dos same as dos with some extras like built in data compression and memory management enhancements still has k mb barrier a later version novell dos of this may use a version of the mac finder and apple file management system pc week infoworld dec os unix like features and unix like requirements mb ram mb uses mb hard drive and dx cpu this bit multithreaded multitasking os can address up to gb of ram but has to use a fast swap file to use more than mb ram on isa systems using dma direct memory access ibm plans to use taligent s oops in future versions of this infoworld oct aix ibm s unix system planned to be a subset of poweropen and taligent os nextstep gui unix to provide next features on ibm machines beta out final version to be out by may solaris os for x a sunsoft port a bit os with symmetric multiprocessing and multithreading built in networking capabilities with tools to allow remote configuring and adminstration features and communication package client users server s users server developer kits software hardware mac working name star trek apple had system running off intel chips and is looking at making a version available for ibm computerworld nov macweek at present this is planned to run on top of novell s dr dos require a or equivalent to run and that apps will need to be recompiled macweek viewed as novell s answer to windows nt the complexity of pc hardware set ups is one reason for slow progress this seems to apple ibm s way of leading to the powerpc line out in late early and pink os in late early powerpc rumor ibm will build its powerpc by late infoworld june macweek pc week it will have microchannel bus and xga video carl b jabido and will run native version aix and mac apps pc week there have been no comments on compatablity of dos or windows apps apple s powerpc machine tesseract is planned to be out jan and to have mc mhz mb ram a mbyte floppy drive and expected to sale near lc line prices down from projections of macuser macweek poweropen a ux a bit preemtive multitasking os planned to run on powerpcs and macs macweek intel compatibility uncertain see mac above planned base requirements mb ram mb hard drive macweek rumor ahead of schedule could be out by mid rumor this could be the os for ibm s powerpc which is due by late pink taligent os expecting delivery in wall street journal and may have some parts shipping in os and aix in and mac os and poweropen with the powerpcs macweek windows nt possible port macweek see ibm os section for details solaris os version of this sun microsystems inc unix os to run on the power pcs in macweek one of the few oses to directly state that it will run windows dos programs ibm os section for details nextstep possible port see ibm os section for details os number crunching mel park mac arithmetic is done in a consistent numerical environment sane or standard apple numerics environment floating point numbers are bits long when an fpu is present and bits otherwise exceptions such as dividing by zero or taking the square root of a negative number do not cause an abort but are handled in a logically consistent manner produces the internal representation for infinity inf produces zero the above treatment of occurs in an fpu equipped machine even when sane is bypassed and the fpu programmed directly ibm floating point numbers are bits with a hardware fpu bits when emulated the way they are handled is dependent on the coding of whatever compiler or assembler was used for a program on older dos complilers exceptions could cause program aborts and would abort to the dos prompt at the point where they occured most present compilers handle this better result there is little consistent handling of numbers between dos windows and os programs nor between programs for just one os networking includes printing wysiwyg printing can be a problem with either mac of ibm machines especially if one sends truetype fonts to a older style postscript printer mac hardware built in localtalk network port and a built in printer port localtalk has moderate speeds kb s requires special connectors for each machine and up and can be run off of either the printer port to include very old macs or the network port standard today built in ethernet is becoming common but many older macs require a pds or nubus card at about for each machine these cards provide three connectors and transceivers thick thin and baset for ethernet the macintosh quadra family and some centris models includes ethernet interface on motherboard with transceivers available tokenring has been a network option since software appletalk the suite of protocols standard with mac os which can use variety of media types appleshare client software included with the os as well and can connect to file servers such as novell netware com open banyan vines dec pathworks apple s appleshare servers system file sharing machines and afp servers running on variety of unix hosts mactcp allows typical tcp ip communications telnet ftp nfs rlogin a later version will have unix x open transport interface xti built in by the end of macweek third party software to connect to nfs servers dec pathworks provides decnet support peer to peer file sharing software built in to system see os section full server software is extra printing requires connection of the printer and the printer being selected in the chooser changing printers is by selecting a different name in the chooser the same is true of connecting to servers printing bugs monaco truetype font is different then the screen bitmap font quickdraw qx is suppossed to fix this and similar problems ibm hardware localtalk not widely used ethernet and tokenring software novell netware banyan vines decnet windows work groups appletalk protocols and appleshare subset of appletalk each of the ms dos networking schemes are in general totally incompatible with the others once you have chosen one you are pretty much locked in to that product line from then on windows work groups is a little more forgiving and removes some of this problem novell netware is the biggest percent of the corporate market and in general is more powerful and offers better control management security than appleshare but it s also more complex to set up and manage this will change due to the use of the mac finder and file management system by novell pc week infoworld dec macweek printing very os dependent dos if it s a single user then you plug the printer into the parallel port and don t worry about it tweeking may be needed with poorly written software network printing is not controlled by the system but is mostly implemented by the actual program therefore performance varies from one software program to the next windows x supports standard drivers and can do a good job of showing jobs in the print queue but it always lists printers as active even if they are not this becomes a problem if there are several incompatible printers on the same net because there s no way for software to reliably determine which printer is active right now windows for workgroups is more mac like and intelligent about this os mac like the os deals with printers with apps making calls to the os printing bugs due to poor programing some programs for all the above oses do not have wysiwyg printing this is the fault of the programs in question and not that of the os involved price issue this is very dynamic with mac providing more build in features than ibm and ibm being more get only what you need then mac and price wars by both worlds the ibm machines modualar nature prevents any kind of true hardware standarization which in turn requires oses and programs to be very complex to handle all the variation in hardware when one adds all the standard mac hardware features to an ibm built in input output sound support scsi pds built in monitor support built in networking standard mouse interface and nubus in higher machines the mac tends to be cheaper then an equivalent equipted ibm machine especially since some ibm monitors can be used with macs which cuts some more of the mac s cost macuser aug some prices using some of the info in this sheet and macuser april all macs below come with a pds slot vram and scsi built in except where noted monitor is extra and a built in monitor interface is provided no card needed except for bit color display ibm planned a slc mhz model with a mb hard drive and color vga monitor vram macweek sounds like a color classic without scsi sound support built in network support fpu socket built in expansion to bit color etc color classic mhz with bit data bus sx mhz equivalent fpu socket and built in monitor lciii mhz dx mhz equivalent and centris lc mhz depending on the program sx or dx sx mhz equivalent built in ethernet i cd rom a pds nubus slot and vram for bit color centris mhz depending on the program dx mhz or dx mhz equivalent with a pds and nubus slots ethernet ethernet ethernet cd rom vram for bit color bibliography notes vaporware is available in the digest vapor directory by ftp on sumex aim stanford edu and was by murphy sewall last issue april info ibmpc digest back issues are available from wsmr simtel army mil in directory pd archives ibmpc dictionary of computer terms rd ed isbm these are the facts as they were known to me on and may be changed by new developments announcements or corrections corrections to the information are welcome please email corrections to compuserve id aol bruceg internet bgrubb dante nmsu edu final note since there is no comp sys ibm pc advocacy group this has been posted to the closest relevent groups comp os ms windows advocacy comp os os advocacy and comp sys ibm pc misc also since some mac vs ibm articles have been showing up in comp sys mac hardware i have included that newsgroup in the posting don t site the comp sys mac faq as a reason not to post to comp sys mac hardware since the faq itself does not follow internet guidelines especially the de facto all the faqs for a newgroup hierarchy should be posted to all newsgroups in the hierarchy standard eliminate the impossible and what ever remains no matter how improbable is the truth sir arthur conan doyle through sherlock holmes in the adventure of the beryl coronet the adventure of the blanched soldier sign of four and the adventure of the bruce partington plans the computer is your friend parinoia rpg
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hi could i join hi does anybody known how much about to buy an ethernet card for mac se besides where do i goto buy if i buy it by mail order which brand is suitable for mac se the network is coxial wire thanks a lot could anybody tell me what to do thank you
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re re quadra scsi problems in article c l p qz news udel edu johnston me udel edu bill johnston writes in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark h nodine writes i don t know about the specific problem mentioned in your message but i definitely had scsi problems between my q and my venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge drives my solution was to get silverlining none of the loops that involved blind writes worked to the drives op that worked was the macintosh software loop whatever that means i doubt this is a quadra specific problem i had to get rid of my venerable bernoulli last year with enough cartridges purchased at each to make the whole thing worth more than my whole computer the tech support guys at ocean microsystems suggested that some third party drivers might fix the problem in my case the cartridges wouldn t format mount partition for a ux hat the megadrives worked perfectly on both my mac plus and my powerbook it was for this reason i assumed the problem had something to do with the quadra even with the quadra they mostly worked ok the problem occurred when i ejected a cartridge from a drive it would start popping up dialog boxes saying this cartridge must be formatted with jasmine driveware even though there was no cartridge in the drive mark t to format i have this confirmed from apple computer in sweden i work for a apple dealer as a service tech we had problems that quadras wanted to format a diskette or a syquest when ther was nothing in the drive this problem was fixed sytem mikael fredriksson email mikael fredriksson macexchange se mac exchange bbs pl s lindome sweden bbs lines fax fido disclaimer mac exchange bbs cannot be held responsible for the contents of this message
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare rvenkate ux cso uiuc edu ravikuma venkateswar writes ray netcom com ray fischer writes how about some numbers here some kind of benchmark benchmarks are for marketing dweebs and cpu envy ok if it will make you happy the is faster than the bfd both architectures are nearing then end of their lifetimes and especially with the x architecture good riddance besides for wait state performance you d need a cache anyway i mean who uses a processor that runs at the speed of ns simms note that this memory speed corresponds to a clock speed of mhz the point being the processor speed is only one of many aspects of a computers performance clock speed processor memory speed cpu architecture i o systems even the application program all contribute to the overall system performance and roughly the is twice as fast at a given clock speed as is the numbers look them up yourself ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare d jwa hemul nada kth se jon wtte writes but the interesting comparision is how fast clock cycle chips you can get an alpha is way slow at mhz but blazes at mhz the only problem is going to be finding someone who can make a mhz computer system could be tough ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re can you share one monitor w cpus bm cleveland freenet edu david kantrowitz writes i have a centris want to get an ibm machine as well to save space on my desk i would like to use one monitor for both with a switch box does anyone know of a way to do this sure buy a switch box and a multisync monitor i have just that arrangement on my desk and it works fine ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sound recording on mac portable answer or lead whatever equipment will work on a mac plus or a mac se will work fine on a mac portable it doesn t have a sound input but there is equipment that works fine with those models mentioned in macuser macworld gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re calling all mac gurus in article qvs t q f usenet ins cwru edu charles p cox jr cox snowhite eeap cwru edu writes question for those familiar with quadra vram i put k vram simms in my quadra in the slots closest to the ram simm slots and i got no results whatsoever i have been told that the built in video should support at least bit and maybe bit color on a macintosh color display however the monitors control panel still lists bit colors as the highest possible the q will only do bit or bit color if you want the higher color depth it s mb s of vram altogether for a monitor up to for a monitor you can get bit max hope this answers your questions james wang
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re q at mhz it s fine in article apr informatik tu muenchen de menes informatik tu muenchen de rainer menes writes i wonder why nobody has ever tried to replace the oscilator only like on a mac iisi i have had my q running with a mhz osc for a few months i have a number of scsi devices connected quantum lp maxtor toshiba mk f via emulex adapter pioneer drm and have had no trouble i am using the stock cooling facilities i considered adding a fan heat pump but don t feel they are necessary for my box anyway i have a temp meter on order and plan to do some measurements when it arrives in a few weeks email me if you want to see the results james macphail jmacphai cue bc ca on bounce try james mirg phy queensu ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help newly installed falcon bombs my se crashed internal hd help i just received my falcon upgrade from spectrum holobyte today my se is running sys with mb of ram like the instructions said i only installed disk the program no start up screen or music i just downloaded macsbug from ftp apple com like it said and installed it in my system folder i restarted the mac an hour later and it wouldn t completely boot off the internal hd i get the happy mac then it disappears only to reappear and repeat the cycle continuously i never even get the welcome to macintosh message norton utilities fixed about new problems but the same thing still happened what do i do please e mail to orly aludra usc edu thanks in advance victor orly victor r orly try to imagine all life as you know it aka mr nitro plastique stopping instantaneously and every molecule univ of southern california in your body exploding at the speed of light internet orly aludra usc edu egon spengler from ghostbusters
comp.sys.mac.hardware	serial line connection between duo and pc in article almaden ibm com petrack vnet ibm com writes i have tried almost everything under the sun to get a null modem connection between a mac duo and a pc i have used mackermit and versaterm on the mac side i have used procomm kermit and softerm on os on the pc or ps side i have used non hardware handshaking and hardware ahdshaking cables and know my hands are shaking from the effort nothing has allowed file transfers from the mac to the ps could i hear from someone attesting that they can really pump information out the serial port of a duo fast like via a modem or via a sys ex dump could anyone with a duo help me out i am going absolutely insane i wanna know if the problem is my duo or all duo s or all duos or just me hmmm sounds vaguely similar to a problem i had a long time ago when i was trying to use kermit i was building a serial connection between my duo and my next i think the problem was in the handshaking basically you need to make sure that the handshaking protocol is the same on both sides a safe place to start is by selecting no handshaking on either end one problem is that the zilog serial chip seems to get permanently wedged if you talk to it wrong and only a reset will clear it i don t know the specifics but this could be a nonlinearity that screws up your attempts at debugging the system it could very well be that you are doing things right eventually but one wrong move like trying a bad handshaking protocol can screw up any further correct actions until the next machine reset i have wedged my mac and also my next that way now i can send files back and forth between the duo and the next without any problem and at pretty high speeds too i don t know what kind of chip the pc uses but i think the zilog is pretty standard hope this helps avery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re using setwutime with a pb aep world std com andrew e page writes i can get the mac to go to sleep but i can t make seem to make it wake up with setwutime the powerbook hardware doesn t have a wakeup timer nor does the the mac portable had one and i think the powerbook had one i don t know about the newer powerbooks but i kind of doubt it i got bit by this too and it took my a while rooting around on the developer cd before i found this out steve folta folta well sf ca us
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification this results in silent corruption of data when used with some devices including ultra modern devices although i will not name the devices since it is not their fault an example would be a sony inch mo without the special mac compatible firmware installed one solution sometimes is to disable blind writes to the best of my knowledge there aren t any problems with quadras and blind transfers trouble with blind transfers usually means the programmer screwed up the tibs or didn t test their driver with the device in question well designed tibs poll or loop at every point where delays of sec occur this usually occurs at the first byte of each block of a transfer but some devices can hiccup in the middle of blocks if this happens in the middle of a blind transfer there is the possibility of losing or gaining a byte depending on which direction the tranfer was going in anycase the scsi manager will eventually return a phase error at the end of the transaction because it is out of sync actual data loss would only occur if the driver didn t pay attention to the errors coming back note that this effect is not caused by anything actually on the scsi bus but rather by the transfer loops inside the scsi manager the problem occurs when the processor bus errors trying to access the scsi chip when the next byte hasn t been clocked yet also note that the bus error is dealt with by a bus error handler and doesn t crash the machine clinton bauder apple computer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re simm vs dram arthur greene p f n z fidonet org arthur greene writes can anyone tell me what the difference is between a k dram chip and a k simm i need the former i think to add memory to my laserwriter ls someone is offering to sell me k simms he removed from an se but i have a feeling this may not be the correct form of memory the sockets in the laserwriter look like they want the spidery shaped chips there are sockets each with as i recall pins arranged in two rows of believe it or not i ve never actually seen a simm help appreciated a simm is a small pcb with dram chips soldered on maarten in real life maarten carels computer science department university of amsterdam email maarten fwi uva nl
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re q at mhz it s fine i have had my q running with a mhz osc for a few months i have a number of scsi devices connected quantum lp maxtor toshiba mk f via emulex adapter pioneer drm and have had no trouble is this being done with the motherboard s scsi interface if this is possible then a bit of experimenting with just plain old clock oscillators may be in order give us some more details please the mad clock chipper in seattle guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	half page hand scanners is anyone out there using a greyscale handscanner i m thinking about buying one is the inexpensive logitech pretty good i don t need super high quality scans but want it to be worth the thanks in advance mike charles
comp.sys.mac.hardware	deskwriter drivers how to install i recently upgraded to system and now i also upgraded my deskwriter drivers from to i got the software from sumex but it is not clear to me where to install what can someone tell me which of the files that come with dw go where and for what purpose what can be left out for instance if you don t want to do background printing thanks tom internet wstomv win tue nl eindhoven university of technology voice dept of mathematics computing science fax po box nl mb eindhoven netherlands
comp.sys.mac.hardware	asynch to synch on the mac does anyone have any good code to drive the serial port in syncronos mode i really need it bad tia abravo mondrian csufres edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	why the drive speeds differ hi all i just got a la cie meg external hard drive speed tests show that it s substantially faster that my internal meg quantum hd supposedly the and the both lps drives are roughly rated the same speed why such a large difference marc marc matteo applelink matteo california state university internet mmatteo mondrian csufresno edu fresno aol m matteo
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re half page hand scanners the logitech scanman is a nice unit compact and effective it will bring in graphics with surprisingly good quality note that its effective resolution in grey scale mode is only about dpi if you don t intend to magnify a graphic it works fine a true level gray scanner would work better for images i ve seen the scanman go for as little as used it is a reasonable buy at that price higher end hand scanners are almost as expensive as used flat bed scanners here is seattle the paper shows occasional good bargains in the classifieds used color flat beds have been seen as lows as lately grey scale flatbeds come in around
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitor shut down on hi res just my luck i did however call my local apple dealer and he said that the he thinks the serial numbers of the machines that are covered begin with either or and maybe one other he also told me that apple had extended the service on these serial numbers for another year so there is still hope get those monitor in jeffh ludwig cc uoregon edu jeff hite writes in article apr guvax acc georgetown edu hew guvax acc georgetown edu writes there is a defect in the hi res monitors bring it to a dealer and they will replace the flyback for free i think i just heard of this problem at work today and we are fixing them for free o r r the service notice on the hi res monitors expired after this date apple will not reimburse service providers for the fix replacement of the hi voltage capacitor all you folks that have been putting up with intermittant shutdowns without getting it to your service provider missed out on the freebie it was in force for a year if you got it free after you got a deal jeff hite computing center u of oregon jeffh ludwig cc uoregon edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re q at mhz it s fine in article lee husc harvard edu lee husc harvard edu patrick lee wrote menes informatik tu muenchen de rainer menes writes i wonder why nobody has ever tried to replace the oscilator only like on a mac iisi as i understand the newer variable speed overdrive is only hardware and alittle init which is use to adjust the speed my idear is to replace the cristal oscilator wit h a socket and than i can change the oscilator very easy this will be alot cheaper the the newer variable speed overdrive i would gues only to are need to do the upgrade does someone on the net ever tried this variant of speeding up the quadra in the may issue of c t magazine was an article about upgrading models of apple they simply change crystals and add a fan hammerhead centris was able to work with mhz cooler prefered and for dm you get an mhz which works with the appropriate crystal at full speed extra cooling required centris like quadra with extra cooling mhz works on most machines and for real power enthusiasts they used a quadra at mhz wow but for better description you should get this issue of c t a german pc magazine christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hard disk error hi there when i run disk first aid on my external hard drive quantum lps i get the followinf message error missing thread record tarid tarblock disk first aid is not able to fix this problem norton utils doesn t find it at all when i use norton disk editor to look at tarblock i can read something like dirreservedarea my question how can i get rid of this error without reformatting of course michael kemper university of kaiserslautern germany email kemper rhrk uni kl de although they gave me that email address this is not the opinion of rhrk uni kl or de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s note that if you get the external cd for your centris or q you will miss out on the sound mixing feature unless you are willing to run a wire from the motherboard sound input connector to the stereo output on the cd connecting to the sound input port on the back of the computer won t do unless you can live with mono
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare in rayc rpxb ak netcom com ray netcom com ray fischer writes but the interesting comparision is how fast clock cycle chips you can get an alpha is way slow at mhz but blazes at mhz the only problem is going to be finding someone who can make a mhz computer system could be tough you can order one from digital today cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe i don t fear death it s dying that scares me
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re se rom in apr mrl dsto gov au ryanph mrl dsto gov au writes there is no reason that apple couldn t release software patches for older computers there are lots of mac pluses classics and ses that have been upgraded to and processors which should be perfectly able to deal with color quickdraw but they wont and rd parties are having a difficult there is one reason market size the market size for color quickdraw for accellerated plusses and ses which don t go beyond mb anyway is just too small the extra cost would belike and with that money you can buy a color classic instead cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe i don t fear death it s dying that scares me
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ethernet card that uses a rose in article aaron bratcher fpm mac uchicago edu aaron bratcher fpm uchicago edu aaron bratcher writes does anyone know if there is an ethernet card that takes advantage of the a rose extension hey what does the a rose extension do anyway michael michael antolovich in wagga wagga a great place to be be mantolovich csu edu au or antolovich zac riv csu edu au
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re torx t screwdriver in article c j k o austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes a while ago when i owned a plus and wanted to upgrade its memory i just ordered the toolkit from macwarehouse for something like it included an anti static wrist strap the clamp used to split the clamshell case and the torx screwdriver they might not be selling it anymore but give em and any other company that sells memory upgrades suitable for a plus style box a call i ll bet that they still offer the kit next day air is usually the shipping method used too i m told that some of these companies often sell a plastic throw away after one use version of the torx driver so ask before you buy michael michael antolovich in wagga wagga a great place to be be mantolovich csu edu au or antolovich zac riv csu edu au
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra clock chipping works after reading reports from germany of success in accelerating a quadra or centris simply by changing the clock oscillator i decided to test the claim i pulled out my variable speed overdrive and the motherboard s mhz clock chip i put a socket in the clock s place and inserted a mhz ttl clock oscillator i had left over from working on some si s i can t believe it it actually works i m not getting scsi timing errors either this is only after a short run time but i ll keep posting results did i spend all that money on the vso for nothing if this keeps working the lack of a double boot in itself will be worth the effort guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	versatec plotter ppd hello world does anyone know of a postscript ppd for a versatec a size plotter which is generally accessed via a zeh postscript interpreter replies by e mail very gratefully received this is proving to be quite a tricky one andrew d nielsen internet anielsen dialix oz au advanced systems consultant applelink aust applecentre perth adelaide tce tel perth wa australia fax any opinions expressed are my own not those of my employer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra startup w out monitor ya right shawn fitzgerald chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu wrote is there a fix for this we have a quadra that will not finish startup unless there is a monitor connected this would be no problem but since we re running it as a file server there is no need to have a monitor connected all the time i ve seen a control panel made for this i don t remember the name where i saw it or on what quadra models it will work but i do know it exists mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uu se uppsala university computing center udac ph department of medical systems fax sweden think straight be gay
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re simm vs dram in article bd f f zeus ieee org arthur greene arthur greene p f n z fidonet org writes can anyone tell me what the difference is between a k dram chip and a k simm i need the former i think to add memory to my laserwriter ls someone is offering to sell me k simms he removed from an se but i have a feeling this may not be the correct form of memory the sockets in the laserwriter look like they want the spidery shaped chips there are sockets each with as i recall pins arranged in two rows of believe it or not i ve never actually seen a simm help appreciated a k dram chip is a kilobit chip whereas a k simm is a kilobyte memory module the simm is a pcb with a pin connector edge and on the simm are kilobit dram chips making the total memory kbytes you are correct assuming that simms will not fit into a laserwriter apple printers either require pin simms like those in the mac iifx or special memory chips contact your apple dealer to find out exactly what kind of chips you need peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pin simms where in article qulhsinnm charnel ecst csuchico edu steven medley smedley ecst csuchico edu writes i am looking for a meg pin simm for my centris where is the best place to purchase one stock shipping warrenty and if possible phone numbers so that i can order one as soon as possible try goldstar they make them and they are available immediately in mac configurations i ordered a pair from computerland meg variety and they work like a charm i ve had them for two weeks peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re buying a high speed v everything modem in article apr rs cmp ilstu edu behr math ilstu edu eric behr writes the at t dataport earns nearly unanimous praises for reliability they are backordered at the moment probably because of the special price in effect until may its fax capabilities are worse than that of the other two modems warning at t ads say that the modem comes with a mac kit cables all and has lifetime warranty this applies only when you order directly from paradyne i called elektek one of the distributors and they wanted to charge me for cable and gave only year warranty hmm i don t know where this information concerning the cable and the warranty came from but i ordered mine from logos communications near cleveland and inside was a mac cable with the correct pin connections and a lifetime warranty the whole package was assembled at at t paradyne and every piece the serial cable the telephone cable etc had at t part numbers on them except the quicklink software package and the compuserve intro kit eric behr illinois state university mathematics department behr math ilstu edu or behr ilstu bitnet please avoid if anyone s interested logos number is i ordered mine last wednesday and got my modem on friday though it s not to far from cleveland to pittsburgh on the down side they only ship ups cod chris christopher p dingman electrical and computer eng dept dingman ece cmu edu carnegie mellon university forbes ave pittsburgh pa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple giong brighter my apple rgb monitor has over the past few months gone brighter and brighter and the colors are not as rich as before has anyone out there encountered a similar problem dows anyone happen to know what this problem may be due to
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re setwutime works on a pb i have tested this on a and it does work there so it would seem that the and are out though one way to tell is to go and open the powerbook control panel there is a setting there that allows you to set the time to wake up the mac if it is present when you open the control panel then you can assume that setwutime will work andrew e page warrior poet decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant the difference between what we are macintosh and dsp technology and what we want to be
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re half page hand scanners i have a lightening scan pro hand scanner it came with scanning editing software ocr software and some plug in modules for photoshop et al the scanner was a tad on the pricey side but the scans are incredibly accurate in level dpi grayscale it also has dithered and line art settings when grayscale isn t desired great scanning software easy to use i frequently write letters to my neices and spontaneouly include a scanned image in the note hope this helps
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi as of last week mac s place had the applied engineering quicksilver card k cache one pds slot socket for fpu on sale for without fpu regular price is no idea if this is still going on but i can get the phone no if anyone is interested i found their ad in macuser can some people with cache cards please post speedometer numbers they get with the cards i have only one report which seems to indicate that a k cache card gives you only about a speedup access to memory takes longer when you have a cache card and get a miss thus a small cache card of k may be worth i don t know what kind of numbers k cards get you also i found it interesting that you can disable the cache cards via software read about it in the mac iisi tech notes from ftp apple com so is a good deal or not i still don t know
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re drivers for cd rom sakelley jeeves ucsd edu scott kelley writes does anybody know where i could find a driver for a future echo infomasster sic cde cd rom drive a friend is running this drive off of a pc and would like to use it on the mac here are some contacts for generic cd rom drivers optical access international west cummings park suite woburn ma fax applelink oai fwb inc polk street suite san francisco ca fax applelink fwb optical media international knowles drive los gatos ca fax applelink omi trantor systems for intel architecture machines randall place fremont ca applelink trantor software architects not verified north creek parkway n suite bothell wa applelink softarch dev casa blanca works not verified applelink cbworks to send a message to someone on applelink use the form address applelink apple com where address is replaced by the appropriate applelink address brian bechtel blob apple com my opinion not apple s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	kb vram simms hi there could some kind soul tell me what is the price of lc iivi iivx compatible kb vram simms in the us nowadays the price over here finland is so ridiculously high about each in usd that i think it is worth the trouble to try to get them overseas thanks jartsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re how long do ram simm s last doesn t a mb simm have about moving flip flops they don t move to anybody much bigger than an electron and they re more like x x charging discharging capacitors in a dram simm anthony d saxton elenay creations
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iisi question the si has a single expansion slot that can be either pds or nubus but not both together the card lies parallel to and above the motherboard hd and requires an adaptor slot to do this there are nubus and pds adaptort cards thus what kind of slots you have depends on what kind of adapter card you have with the exception of the radius rocket all nubus cards i know of work in the si pds slots and thus cards are mac specific thus not all pds cards work in all macs from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	desi pb upgrade does anyone know exactly how digital eclipse does their upgrades someone was suggesting to me that some chips may not be able to perform at mhz is this true and if so how does desi deal with that david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	good display card for multisync hi there i wonder if anyone knows and can recommend me a good nubus display card for driving a multisync nec d the nec d can do horizontal refresh from khz to khz and vertical from hz to hz and can do max x interlaced though i am looking for something more like x or x noninterlaced it would be very nice to find a card which can be programmed quite freely within these limits and is capable to display at least bits pixel preferably more is there anything on the market that comes even close thanks jartsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	good hard disk driver for non apple drives sys compat hi there what is your recommendation for a good hard disk driver software for non apple drives i would mainly need it for a syquest removable media drive but maybe for some normal drives too i have heard and seen good things about silverlining but don t know any competitors it does not need to be fancy filled with features i more like it affordable thanks jartsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re adding vram to quadra wstuartj lucky ecn purdue edu w stuart jones writes i want to go from k to m vram on my quadra how many k simms do i need to buy none you need to buy ns k vram simms they cost about each from your favorite memory distributor is the current k soldered on the board or do i need to take out the current vram before i add more the k is soldered to the logic board there are simm slots for expansion hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	psi comstation anyone have any expierience with psi s comstation please contact me if you had or have a suggesiton for a really good modem with fax for the macintosh via uci v c net amiga dennis t cheung the dtc tm corporation of america america online dtc internet dtc mlinknet hotcity com disclaimer you never read this message this message doesn t exist
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why the drive speeds differ in c r z gb zimmer csufresno edu mmatteo mondrian csufresno edu marc matteo writes i just got a la cie meg external hard drive speed tests show that it s substantially faster that my internal meg quantum hd supposedly the and the both lps drives are roughly rated the same speed why such a large difference could be better caching on the disk could be faster coil for seeks could be that the disk spins faster so data transfers faster could be that data is packed tighter so it transfers faster could be a faster scsi command decoder in the drive among other things jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe engineering how will this work science why will this work management when will this work liberal arts do you want fries with that jesse n schell
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re adding vram to quadra in article wstuartj lucky ecn purdue edu wstuartj lucky ecn purdue edu w stuart jones writes i want to go from k to m vram on my quadra how many k simms do i need to buy is the current k soldered on the board or do i need to take out the current vram before i add more you need to add two k vram simms k vram simms will not work in any of the quadra or centris machines there is already k of vram soldered to the logic board you add the two k simms to this to give you a total of mb dale adams
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi can some people with cache cards please post speedometer numbers they get with the cards i have only one report which seems to indicate that a k cache card gives you only about a speedup ok i have a record that shows a iisi with and without a kb cache it s small enough that i will attach it i have also measured some real programs with and without the kb cache the speedup varies a lot from app to app ranging from to i think an average of is about right the subjective difference is not great but is sometimes noticable a simple cache card certainly does not transform a iisi into something enormously better i do not have an fpu the conventional wisdom says that cache cards from all of the makers offer about the same speedup and that there is not much difference between k and k caches i bought mine from third wave for well under i have had absolutely no problems at all with it if you get complete speedometer runs for a k cache i d like to see them let s check the conventional wisdom the so called performance rating numbers by themselves are of no interest cheers peter newton newton cs utexas edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s in article r fdinnddt senator bedfellow mit edu thewho athena mit edu derek a fong writes interestingly enough the cdrom i that came with my quadra has only disks system install kodak photo cd sampler alice to ocean cdrom titles application demos mozart dissonant quartet nautilus apple chronicles has anyone else noticed that they got less than everyone seems to be getting with the external what i really feel i missed out on is what is supposed to a fantastic games demo disk i have heard that people have gotten up to disks with their drive i assume they get the titles above plus cinderella and the games demo cdrom any comments and experiences should i call apple to complain derek thewho plume mit edu what i did not get with my drive cd i is the system install cd you listed as any ideas about how i can get one i bought my iivx from direct express in chicago no complaints at all good price good service btw i ve heard that the system install cd can be used to boot the mac however my drive will not accept a cd caddy is the machine is off how can you boot with it then dave dlc umcc ais org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	source for deskwriter ink carts could someone please e mail or post a cheap source for ink carts for the hp deskwriter original hp carts are preferred but i will settle for third party brands if they are of good quality tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re stereo sound problem on mac games steve bollinger buzz apple com writes enter game developers the sound driver and current sound manager are inconveniently lame for making games the sound driver is pretty ok since it s fast sound manager used by the book is useless disposing of sound channels as soon as sound has completed is out of the question for games with smooth animation it s too slow the sound driver is so much snappier than sound manager unfortunately system supports it poorly making programs crash occasionally the more of the story is to developers don t cheat really i am absolutely positively not allowed to do what i am about to do but i m going say it anyway stop cheating on sound really soon you will be sorry as even those without external speakers will be disappointed with your sound on future hardware the grace period is about to end the sound manager is understandable now and works pretty well and will work even better soon so use it well i want my code to work on old systems too i don t know about sys but at least on there are bugs in the sound manager that causes channels to hang with no error message this happends when i keep a channel open for long periods necessary for performance and play many sounds stopping sounds halfway callbacks seems not to be reliable then only way i can safely tell if a sound has stopped playing is to inspect private variables in the channel qhead i think it was and the only way i have found to tell if a channel is hung is to inspect an undocumented flag and modify it am i happy with this nope i consider writing to soundbase simply to get rid of the bugs any better suggestions silent games is not among the acceptab e solutions ingemar ragnemalm dept of electrical engineering uunet mcvax enea rainier ingemar university of linkoping sweden ingemar isy liu se
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re buying a high speed v everything modem what is hardware handshaking and when do i want to use it dan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac oriented bbss in chicago a member of the local bbs i frequent is looking for mac oriented bbss based in chicago any leads would be most appreciated here is a list of the firstclass systems in illinois chicago machine chicago il insane domain chicago il mac universe bbs chicago il the net rockford il mactripp wilmette il innovators vernon hills il if anyone wants the numbers to more firstclass systems i would be glad to post the complete list jason hyerstay adrenaline admin adrenaline online firstclass charlotte vt free access k hst dual onenet macunion fidonet usenet conferences megs of files dedicated to mac users cyberpunks civil libertarians and mecha gamers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re making an internal hard disk into an external its not a difficult operation the cables and such are standard except for scsi id scsi id is usually three jumper pads labelled a a on quantums i am trying to put a mb drive from my lc into a case it is a conner cp a i can t figure out which jumpers are the scsi id jumpers is anyone familiar with this drive at the end of the drive oposite the pin pibbon connector there are eleven pins which look like this o o o o o o o o o o o l cr c where the o are pins and the l cr c represent some of the silk screen notation near these pins elsewhere on the board there are four jumper pads marked e e e e on the silk screen does anyone know where the scsi id a a a pins are and where the drive activity light led should be plugged into allan allan m schwartz ams auspex com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac scsi spec i have a maciifx and i know that it is wired about its scsi chain i just bought a drive and i need to find out a few hardcore scsi question does the iifx scsi chain want to see active or passive termination does the iifx scsi spec want me to enable the initiation of the sdtr message what does the iifx scsi spec want as far as parity checking these are some very good questions for the faq if someone does not have time to answer these questions but does know where i can look them up please let me know and i will repost the answers for everyone to see thanks tim keanini timk broder com or blast crl com sound engineer broderbund software
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo crashes aftersleep add me to the list of bugged owners i had a bunch of problems regarding sleep wakeup restart with the when i first got it both with and without the techworks ram finally it died wouldn t start until i opened the docking door which snaps open and the machine came up fine but with the clock a few decades off apple replaced the processor board now twice the machine has frozen no mouse action twice the machine has refused to wake up acutally the backlighting came on and the disk spins when the power adaptor is plugged in but not with a good battery the first time this happened removing both power adaptor and battery for minute brought the machine back the second time this happened the machine wouldn t wake up until powered down for about minutes the screen had what looked like red horizontal lines accross it both timse the file fax modem preferences has been corrupted according to disinfectent i have removed all the fax and modem software and the third party memory and am waiting to see if it happens again forrest forrest howard oracle corporation oracle parkway box redwood shores ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac portable vs powerbook answers can the internal hard drive of the macportable upgraded to larger capacity what is the specs a drive lps model is there any third party modem greater than bps with fax option p s i notice the macportable batteries are avalable thru the apple catalog eric choi internet eric choi p f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quickdraw gx was re when are the rest of the inside mac s due we ll be releasing a whole new suite of quickdraw gx related docs if you re going to be at the wwdc next month you ll get a preliminary version of most of this documentation on the cd we re talking multiple thousands of pages i m afraid gx comprising graphics layout and printing has lots of new api calls and other functionality all of which need documenting dave opstad gx line layout weenie does gx take the place of bit qd or add to it right now bit is kinda aesthetically a pain in a few places because of hacks upon hacks to maintain compatibility with original qd i think of things like where you have to cast cgrafports to grafports and such it would be a lot cleaner to ditch this entire mess and start over do we get that maynard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pb to non apple printer is there a workaround which will enable me to print to a hplj from my powerbook actually i m going to a m which will have an ethernet card in the localtalk slot grrrrr is there some hardware which will enable me to this easily kind of plug and play thanks pam mullen this message was sent by a member of seattle mac dbug s exchange bbs po box seattle wa usa infoline
comp.windows.x	th international obfuscated c code contest opening of enclosed are the rules guidelines and related information for the th international obfuscated c code contest this is part of a part shar file enjoy chongo landon curt noll oo larry bassel bin sh this is a shell archive shar made utc by chongo toad com source directory tmp existing files will be overwritten this shar contains length mode name r r r rules r r r guidelines r r r mkentry c r r r obfuscate info rules echo x extracting rules text sed s x shar eof rules x th international obfuscated c code contest rules x xcopyright c landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use is xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission in writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel x x obfuscate tr v cated cating cates a to render obscure x b to darken to confuse his emotions obfuscated his x judgment llat obfuscare to darken ob intensive x lat fuscare to darken fuscus dark obfuscation n x obfuscatory adj x x xgoals of the contest x x to write the most obscure obfuscated c program under the rules below x to show the importance of programming style in an ironic way x to stress c compilers with unusual code x to illustrate some of the subtleties of the c language x to provide a safe forum for poor c code x x xrules x x to help us with the volume of entries we ask that you follow these rules x x your entry must be a complete program x x your entry must be bytes in length the number of characters x excluding whitespace tab space newline and excluding any or x followed by either whitespace or end of file must be x x your entry must be submitted in the following format x x entry xrule xfix y or n n this is a new entry y this replaces an older entry xtitle title of entry see comments below xentry entry number from to inclusive your st entry should by xdate date time of submission in utc see comments below xhost machine s and os s under which your entry was tested x use tab indented lines if needed x remark x place remarks about this entry in this section it would be helpful if x you were to indent your remarks with spaces though it is not a x requirement also if possible try to avoid going beyond the th x column blank lines are permitted x author xname your name xorg school company organization xaddr postal address x use tab indented lines to continue x don t forget to include the country xemail email address from a well known site or registered domain x if you give several forms list them on separate tab indented lines xanon y or n y remain anonymous n ok to publish this info x info xif your program needs an info file place a uuencoded copy of it in xthis section in the case of multiple info files use multiple info xsections if your entry does not need a info file skip this section x build xplace a uuencoded copy of the command s used to compile build your program xin this section it must uudecode into a file named build the resulting xfile must be bytes or less x program xplace a uuencoded copy of your program in this section it must uudecode xinto a file named is prog c the resulting file must follow rule x end x x regarding the above format x x the title must match the expression a za z a za z x and must be to characters in length x x it is suggested but not required that the title should x incorporate your username in the case of multiple authors x consider using parts of the usernames of the authors x x the date in the entry section should be given with respect x to utc the format of the date should be as returned by asctime x using the c locale see guidelines for more info x x you may correct revise a previously submitted entry by sending x it to the contest email address be sure to set fix in the x entry section to n the corrected entry must use the same x title and entry number as submittion that is being corrected be x sure that you note the resubmittion in the remark as well x x with the exception of the header all text outside of the above x format may be ignored by the judges if you need tell the judges x something put it in the remark section or send a separate x email message to the judges x x information from the author section will be published unless x y was given to the respective author s anon line x x to credit multiple authors include an author section for x each author each should start with author line and x should be found between the entry and build sections x x the entry s remarks should include x what this program does x how to run the program sample args or input x special compile or execution instructions if any x special filename requirements see rule and x information about any data files x why you think the program is obfuscated x note if this entry is a re submission of a previous entry x any other remarks humorous or otherwise x x do not rot your entry s remarks you may suggest that certain x portions of your remarks be rot ed if your entry wins an award x x info files should be used only to supplement your entry they x should not be required to exist x x if your entry does not need an info file skip the info x section if your entry needs multiple info files use multiple x info sections one per info file you should describe x each info file in the remark section x x if your entry is selected as a winner it will be modified as follows x x build is incorporated into a makefile and build is removed x prog c is renamed to your entry s title followed by an optional x digit followed by c x your entry is compiled into a file with the name of your entry s x title possibly followed by a digit x x if your entry requires that a build file exist state so in your x entry s remark section the makefile will be arranged to execute a x build shell script containing the build information the name of x this build shell script will be your entry s title possibly followed x by a digit followed by sh x x if needed your entry s remarks should indicate how your entry must x be changed in order to deal with the new filenames x x the build file the source and the resulting executable should be x treated as read only files if your entry needs to modify these files x it should make and modify a copy of the appropriate file if this x occurs state so in your entry s remarks x x entries that cannot be compiled by an ansi c compiler will be rejected x use of common c k r extensions is permitted as long as it does not x cause compile errors for ansi c compilers x x the program must be of original work all programs must be in the x public domain all copyrighted programs will be rejected x x entries must be received prior to may utc utc is x essentially equivalent to greenwich mean time email your entries to x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad obfuscate x obfuscate toad com x x we request that your message use the subject ioccc entry x x if possible we request that you hold off on emailing your entries x until mar utc early entries will be accepted however x we will attempt to email a confirmation to the the first author for x all entries received after mar utc x x each person may submit up to entries per contest year each entry x must be sent in a separate email letter x x entries requiring human interaction to be built are not allowed x compiling an entry produce a file or files which may be executed x x programs that require special privileges setuid setgid super user x special owner or group are not allowed x x xfor more information x x the judging will be done by landon noll and larry bassel please send x questions or comments but not entries about the contest to x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges x judges toad com x x the rules and the guidelines may and often do change from year to x year you should be sure you have the current rules and guidelines x prior to submitting entries to obtain all of them send email x to the address above and use the subject send rules x x one may also obtain them via anonymous ftp from x x host ftp uu net x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x xchongo landon curt noll cc hoptoad chongo xlarry bassel uunet ucbvax cbosgd sun lab shar eof chmod rules echo restore of rules failed set wc c rules wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi guidelines echo x extracting guidelines text sed s x shar eof guidelines x th international obfuscated c code contest guidelines hints and comments x xcopyright c landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use is xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission in writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel x xabout this file x x this file is intended to help people who wish to submit entries to x the international obfuscated c code contest ioccc for short x x this is not the ioccc rules though it does contain comments about x them the guidelines should be viewed as hints and suggestions x entries that violate the guidelines but remain within the rules are x allowed even so you are safer if you remain within the guidelines x x you should read the current ioccc rules prior to submitting entries x the rules are typically sent out with these guidelines x x xwhat is new in x x the entry format is better for us anyway the program mkentry c x has been updated see entry format x x we will reject entries that cannot be compiled using an ansi c x compiler certain old obfuscation hacks that cause ansi c compilers x fits are no longer permitted some of the new issues deal with x non integral array types variable number of arguments c preprocessor x directives and the exit function see our likes and dislikes x x xhints and suggestions x x you are encouraged to examine the winners of previous contests see x for more information for details on how to get previous winners x x keep in mind that rules change from year to year so some winning entries x may not be valid entries this year what was unique and novel one year x might be old the next year x x an entry is usually examined in a number of ways we typically apply x a number of tests to an entry x x look at the original source x convert ansi tri graphs to ascii x c pre process the source ignoring include lines x c pre process the source ignoring define and include lines x run it through a c beautifier x examine the algorithm x lint it x compile it x execute it x x you should consider how your entry looks in each of the above tests x you should ask yourself if your entry remains obscure after it has been x cleaned up by the c pre processor and a c beautifier x x your entry need not do well under all or in most tests in certain x cases a test is not important entries that compete for the x strangest most creative source layout need not do as well as x others in terms of their algorithm on the other hand given x two such entries we are more inclined to pick the entry that x does something interesting when you run it x x we try to avoid limiting creativity in our rules as such we leave x the contest open for creative rule interpretation as in real life x programming interpreting a requirements document or a customer request x is important for this reason we often award worst abuse of the x rules to an entry that illustrates this point in an ironic way x x if you do plan to abuse the rules we suggest that you let us know x in the remarks section please note that an invitation to abuse x is not an invitation to break we are strict when it comes to the x byte size limit also abusing the entry format tends to x annoy more than amuse x x we do realize that there are holes in the rules and invite entries x to attempt to exploit them we will award worst abuse of the rules x and then plug the hole next year even so we will attempt to use x the smallest plug needed if not smaller x x check out your program and be sure that it works we sometimes make x the effort to debug an entry that has a slight problem particularly x in or near the final round on the other hand we have seen some x of the best entries fall down because they didn t work x x we tend to look down on a prime number printer that claims that x is a prime number if you do have a bug you are better off x documenting it noting this entry sometimes prints the th power x of a prime by mistake would save the above entry and sometimes x a strange bug feature can even help the entry of course a correctly x working entry is best x x xour likes and dislikes x x doing masses of defines to obscure the source has become old we x tend to see thru masses of defines due to our pre processor tests x that we apply simply abusing defines or dfoo bar won t go as far x as a program that is more well rounded in confusion x x many ansi c compilers dislike the following code and so do we x x define d define x d foo don t expect this to turn into define foo x x int i x j don t use such implicit type declaration x int k x x we suggest that you compile your entry with an ansi c compiler if you x must use non ansi c such as k r c you must avoid areas that result in x compile link errors for ansi c compilers x x unfortunately ansi c requires array indexes to be of integral type x thus the following classical obfuscation hacks are no longer allowed x x int i x char c x i c use c i instead x i string use string i instead x x if your entry uses functions that have a variable number of x arguments be careful systems implement va list as a wide variety x of ways because of this a number of operations using va list are x not portable and must not be used x x assigning a non va list variable to from a va list variable x casting a non va list variable into from a va list variable x passing a va list variable to a function expecting a non va list arg x passing a non va list variable to a function expecting a va list arg x performing arithmetic on va list variables x using va list as a structure or union x x in particular do not treat va list variables as if they were a char s x x avoid using varargs h use stdarg h instead x x if you use c preprocessor directives define if ifdef x the leading must be the first character on a line while some x c preprocessors allow whitespace the leading many do not x x because the exit function returns void on some systems entries x must not assume that it returns an int x x small programs are best when they are short obscure and concise x while such programs are not as complex as other winners they do x serve a useful purpose they are often the only program that people x attempt to completely understand for this reason we look for x programs that are compact and are instructional x x one line programs should be short one line programs say around x bytes long getting close to bytes is a bit too long in our opinion x x we tend to dislike programs that x x are very hardware specific x are very os or un x version specific x index strchr differences are ok but socket streams specific x code is likely not to be x dump core or have compiler warnings x it is ok only if you warn us in the remark header item x won t compile under both bsd or sys v un x x abusing the build file to get around the size limit x obfuscate by excessive use of ansi tri graphs x are longer than they need to be x are similar to previous winners x are identical to previous losers x x unless you are cramped for space or unless you are entering the x best one liner category we suggest that you format your program x in a more creative way than simply forming excessively long lines x x the build file should not be used to try and get around the size x limit it is one thing to make use of a several d s to help out x but it is quite another to use bytes of d s in order to x try and squeeze the source under the size limit you should feel x free to make use of the build file space but you are better off x if you show some amount of restraint x x we allowed whitespace and in certain cases or do not impact x your program size up to a certain point because we want to get x away from source that is simply a compact blob of characters x x given two versions of the same program one that is a compact blob x of code and the other that is formatted more like a typical c x program we tend to favor the second version of course a third x version of the same program that is formatted in an interesting x and or obfuscated way would definitely win over the first two x x we suggest that you avoid trying for the smallest self replicating x program we are amazed at the many different sizes that claim x to be the smallest there is nothing wrong with self replicating x programs in fact a number of winners have been self replicating x you might want to avoid the claim of smallest lest we or others x know of a smaller one x x x client entries should be as portable as possible entries that x adapt to a wide collection of environments will be favored don t x depend on a particular type of display for example don t depend x on color or a given size don t require backing store x x x client entries should avoid using x related libraries and x software that is not in wide spread use we ask that such x client x entries restrict themselves to only the low level xlib and the x athena widget set libx a libxaw a libxmu a and libxt a x don t use m tif xv ew or openl ok toolkits since not everyone x has them avoid depending on a particular window manager not x everyone has x r and some people are stuck back in x r or x earlier so try to target x r without requiring x r better x yet try to make your entry run on all version x window systems x x x client entries should not to depend on particular items on x xdefaults if you must do so be sure to note the required lines x in the remark section x x we like programs that x x are as concise and small as they need to be x do something at least quasi interesting x pass lint without complaint not a requirement but it is nice x are portable x are unique or novel in their obfuscation style x make use of a number of different types of obfuscation x make us laugh and or throw up x x some types of programs can t excel in some areas of course your x program doesn t have to excel in all areas but doing well in several x areas really does help x x we freely admit that interesting creative or humorous comments in x the remark section helps your chance of winning if you had to x read of many twisted entries you too would enjoy a good laugh or two x we think the readers of the contest winners do as well x x be creative x x xentry format x x in order to help us process the many entries we must request your x assistance by formatting your entries in a certain way this format x in addition allows us to quickly separate information about the x author from the program itself see judging process x x we have provided the program mkentry as an example of how to x format entries you should be aware of the following warning that x is found in mkentry c x x this program attempts to implement the ioccc rules every x attempt has been made to make sure that this program produces x an entry that conforms to the contest rules in all cases x where this program differs from the contest rules the x contest rules will be used be sure to check with the x contest rules before submitting an entry x x you are not required to use mkentry it is convenient however x as it attempts to uuencode the needed files and attempt to check x the entry against the size rules x x if you have any suggestions comments fixes or complaints about x the mkentry c program please send email to the judges see below x x the following is a sample entry x x entry xrule xfix n xtitle chonglab xentry xdate mon mar xhost un x v pdp x bsd pdp x remark x this is a non obfuscated obfuscated c program x x it is likely not to win a prize but what do you expect from x a short example x author xname landon curt noll xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall x po box x san francisco california x x usa xemail chongo toad com xanon n x author xname larry bassel xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall x po box x san francisco california x x usa xemail hoptoad sun lab x lab sun com xanon n x info x xend x build xbegin build x v o ryc uo r v x xend x program xend x end x x typically the build file should assume that the source is prog c x and will compile into prog if an entry wins we will rename x its source and binary to avoid filename collision by tradition x we use the name of the entry s title followed by an optional x digit in case of name conflicts x x if the above entry somehow won the least likely to win award x we would use chonglab c and chonglab x x if your entry depends on or requires that your build source x and or binary files be a particular name please say so in the x remark section if this case applies it would be be helpful x if you did one of the following x x tell us how to change the filename s in your entry x x have the build file make copies of the files for example x x cc prog c o special name need special binary x x or rm f special src c need special source x cp prog c special src c x cc special src c o special name x x or rm f special build need special build x tail build special build x sh special build x x assume that we will use the entry title send us a version of x your build program files that uses the name convention you x should uuencode these files in data sections x x if your entry needs to modify its source info or binary files x please say so in the remark section you should try to avoid x touching your original build source and binary files you should x arrange to make copies of the files you intend to modify this x will allow people to re generate your entry from scratch x x remember that your entry may be built without a build file we x typically incorporate the build lines into a makefile if the x build file must exist say so in the remark section x x if your entry needs special info files you should uuencode them x into info sections in the case of multiple info files x use multiple info sections if no info files are needed x then skip the info section x x info files are intended to be input or detailed information that x does not fit well into the remark section for example an x entry that implements a compiler might want to provide some sample x programs for the user to compile an entry might want to include a x lengthy design document that might not be appropriate for a x hints file x x info files should be used only to supplement your entry for x example info files may provide sample input or detailed x information about your entry because they are supplemental x the entry should not require them exist x x in some cases your info files might be renamed to avoid name x conflicts if info files should not be renamed for some reason x say so in the remark section x x info files must uudecode into the current directory if they x absolutely must be renamed or moved into a sub directory say x so in the remark section x x when submitting multiple entries be sure that each entry has x a unique entry number from to your first entry should x have entry number x x with the exception of the header all text outside of the entry x format may be ignored that is don t place text outside of the x entry and expect the judges to see it our decoding tools aren t x ai progs if you need tell the the something put it in the x remark section or send a email to the judges at x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for x judges toad com submitting entries x x the date should be given with respect to utc some systems refer x to this as gmt or gmt the format of the date should be that as x returned by asctime in the c locale an example of such a string is x x thr apr x x this format is similar to the output of the date command the x string does not include the timezone name before the year on many x systems one of the following command will produce a similar string x x date u a h d t y x date u sed e s x sh c tz utc date sed e s x sh c tz gmt date sed e s x sh c tz gmt date sed e s x x you are allowed to update fix revise your entry to do so set x the fix line in the entry section to y instead of n x be sure that the resubmittion uses the same title and entry number x as well as these are used to determine which entry is to be x replaced x x xjudging process x x entries are judged by larry bassel and landon curt noll x x entries are unpacked into individual directories the email message x is unpacked into individual files each containing x x entry section x all author sections x all info sections x build section x program section x any other text including the email message headers x x prior to judging the any other text file is scanned to be sure x it does not contain useful information or in case the entry was x malformed and did not unpack correctly information from the x author sections are not read until the judging process is x complete and then only from entries that have won an award x x the above process helps keep us biased for against any one particular x individual we are usually kept in the dark as much as you are x until the final awards are given we like the surprise of finding x out in the end who won and where they were from x x we attempt to keep all entries anonymous unless they win an award x because the main prize of winning is being announced we make all x attempts to send non winners into oblivion we remove all non winning x files and shred all related paper by tradition we do not even x reveal the number of entries that we received for the curious x we do indicate the volume of paper consumed when presenting the ioccc x winners at talks x x after the usenix announcement we attempt to send email to the x authors of the winning entries one reason we do this is to give x the authors a chance to comment on the way we have presented their x entry they are given the chance to correct mistakes typos we x often accept their suggestions comments about our remarks as well x this is done prior to posting the winners to the wide world x x judging consists of a number of elimination rounds during a round x the collection of entries are divided into two roughly equal piles x the pile that advances on to the next round and the pile that does x not we also re examine the entries that were eliminated in the x previous round thus an entry gets at least two readings x x a reading consists of a number of actions x x reading the entry section x reading the uudecoded build section x reading the uudecoded program section x reading the uudecoded info section s if any x passing the source thru the c pre processor x shipping over any include files x performing a number of c beautify cleanup edits on the source x passing the beautified source thru the c pre processor x shipping over any include files x x in later rounds other actions are performed x x linting the source x compiling building the source x running the program x performing misc tests on the source and binary x x until we reduce the stack of entries down to about entries entries x are judged on an individual basis an entry is set aside because it x does not in our opinion meet the standard established by the round x when the number of entries thins to about entries we begin to form x award categories entries begin to compete with each other for awards x an entry often will compete in several categories x x the actual award category list will vary depending on the types of entries x we receive a typical category list might be x x best small one line program x best small program x strangest most creative source layout x most useful obfuscated program x best game that is obfuscated x most creatively obfuscated program x most deceptive c code x best x client see our likes and dislikes x best abuse of ansi c x worst abuse of the rules x anything else so strange that it deserves an award x x we do not limit ourselves to this list for example a few entries are so x good bad that they are declared winners at the start of the final round x we will invent awards categories for them if necessary x x in the final round process we perform the difficult tasks of x reducing the remaining entries typically about down to or x winners often we are confident that the entries that make it into x the final round are definitely better than the ones that do not x make it the selection of the winners out of the final round is x less clear cut x x sometimes a final round entry good enough to win but is beat out x by a similar but slightly better entry for this reason it is x sometimes worthwhile to re enter an improved version of an entry x that failed to win in a previous year this assumes of course x that the entry is worth improving in the first place x x more often that not we select a small entry usually one line a x strange creative layout entry and an entry that abuses the contest x rules in some way x x in the end we traditionally pick one entry as best sometimes such x an entry simply far exceeds any of the other entry more often the x best is picked because it does well in a number of categories x x xannouncement of winners x x the first announcement occurs at a summer usenix conference by tradition x this is done during the latter part of the uunet ioccc bof just prior to x the berkeley bsd and bsdi bof x x winning entries will be posted in late june to the following groups x x comp lang c comp unix wizards alt sources x x in addition pointers to these postings are posted to the following x x comp sources d alt sources d misc misc x comp sources misc comp windows x x x winning entries will be deposited into the uunet archives see x below for details x x often winning entries are published in selected magazines winners x have appeared in books the new hackers dictionary and on t shirts x x last but not least winners receive international fame and flames x x xfor more information x x you may contact the judges by sending email to the following address x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for x judges toad com submitting entries x x questions and comments about the contest are welcome x x one may obtain a copy of the current rules guidelines or mkentry x program to obtain all of them send email to the address above x and use the subject send rules x x one may also obtain the above items we well as winners of previous x contests via anonymous ftp from x x host ftp uu net x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x often contest rules guidelines and winners are available from x archive sites check comp sources unix archives for example x you may also request previous winners by email using the judges x email address though we ask that you do this as a last resort x x xchongo landon curt noll cc hoptoad chongo xlarry bassel uunet ucbvax cbosgd sun lab shar eof chmod guidelines echo restore of guidelines failed set wc c guidelines wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi echo end of part continue with part exit sunnyvale residents vote landon noll for sunnyvale city council seat
comp.windows.x	th international obfuscated c code contest opening part of enclosed are the rules guidelines and related information for the th international obfuscated c code contest this is part of a part shar file enjoy chongo landon curt noll oo larry bassel bin sh this is part of a multipart archive mkentry c echo x extracting mkentry c text sed s x shar eof mkentry c x mkentry c x x copyright c landon curt noll larry bassel x all rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use x is granted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its x entirety and remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior x permission in writing from both landon curt noll and larry bassel x x x mkentry make an international obfuscated c code contest entry x x usage x mkentry r remarks b build p prog c o ioccc entry x x r remarks file with remarks about the entry x b build file containing how prog c should be built x p prog c the obfuscated program source file x o ioccc entry ioccc entry output file x x compile by x cc mkentry c o mkentry x x x placed in the public domain by landon curt noll x x this software is provided as is and without any express or implied x warranties including without limitation the implied warranties of x merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose x x x warning x x this program attempts to implement the ioccc rules every attempt x has been made to make sure that this program produces an entry that x conforms to the contest rules in all cases where this program x differs from the contest rules the contest rules will be used be x sure to check with the contest rules before submitting an entry x x send questions or comments but not entries about the contest to x x sun pacbell uunet pyramid hoptoad judges x judges toad com x the rules and the guidelines may and often do change from year to x year you should be sure you have the current rules and guidelines x prior to submitting entries to obtain all of them send email x to the address above and use the subject send rules x x because contest rules change from year to year one should only use this x program for the year that it was intended be sure that the rule year x define below matches this current year x x x include stdio h x include ctype h x include time h x include sys types h x include sys stat h x x logic x ifndef true x define true x endif true x ifndef false x define false x endif false x define eof ok true x define eof not ok false x x global limits x define rule year note should match the current year x define start date mar utc first confirmation received x define max col max column a line should hit x define max build size max how to build size x define max program size max program source size x define max program size max program source size not counting x whitespace and not followed by x whitespace or eof x define max title len max chars in the title x define max entry len max length in the entry input line x define max entry max number of entries per person per year x define max file len max filename length for a info file x x where to send entries x define entry addr apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad obfuscate x define entry addr obfuscate toad com x x uuencode process assumes ascii x define uuencode c encode str int c xff x define uuencode len max uuencode chunk size x define uuinfo mode mode of an info file s uuencode file x define uubuild mode mode of the build file s uuencode file x define uubuild name build name for the build file s uuencode file x define uuprog mode mode of the program s uuencode file x define uuprog name prog c name for the program s uuencode file x x encode str char val is the uuencoded character of val xchar encode str abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz x x global declarations xchar program our name xlong start time the startup time x x forward declarations xvoid parse args xvoid usage xfile open remark xfile open build xfile open program xfile open output xvoid output entry xvoid output remark xvoid output author xvoid output info xvoid output build xvoid output program xvoid output end xint get line xvoid output till dot xint col len xvoid check io xvoid uuencode x xmain argc argv x int argc arg count x char argv the args x x file remark null open remarks stream x file build null open build file stream x file prog null open program stream x file output null open output stream x char rname null file with remarks about the entry x char bname null file containing how prog c should be built x char pname null the obfuscated program source file x char oname null ioccc entry output file x struct tm tm startup time structure x x x check on the year x x start time time long x tm gmtime start time x if tm tm year rule year x fprintf stderr x s warning this program applies to d which may differ from d n n x argv rule year tm tm year x x x x parse the command line args x x parse args argc argv rname bname pname oname x x x open check the input and output files x x we open and truncate the output file first in case it is the same x as one of the input files x x output open output oname x remark open remark rname x build open build bname x prog open program pname x if output null remark null build null prog null x exit x x x x output each section x x output entry output oname x output remark output oname remark rname x output author output oname x output info output oname x output build output oname build bname x output program output oname prog pname x output end output oname x x x flush the output x x if fflush output eof x fprintf stderr s flush error in s program oname x perror x exit x x x x final words x x printf nyour entry can be found in s you should check this file n x oname x printf correct any problems and verify that the uudecode utility will n x printf correctly decode your build file and program n n x printf this program has been provided as a guide for submitters in n x printf cases where it conflicts with the rules the rules shall apply n x printf it is your responsibility to ensure that your entry conforms to n x printf the current rules n n x printf email your entries to n x printf t s n entry addr x printf t s n n entry addr x printf please use the following subject when you email your entry n x printf tioccc entry n n x all done x exit x x x x parse args parse the command line args x x given the command line args this function parses them and sets the x required name flags this function will return only if the command x line syntax is correct x xvoid xparse args argc argv rname bname pname oname x int argc arg count x char argv the args x char rname file with remarks about the entry x char bname file containing how prog c should be built x char pname the obfuscated program source file x char oname ioccc entry output file x x char optarg flag option operand x int flagname the name of the flag x int i x x x not everyone has getopt so we must parse args by hand x x program argv x for i i argc i x x determine the flagname x if argv i x usage x notreached x x flagname int argv i x x determine the flag s operand x if flagname argv i x optarg argv i x else x if i argc x usage x notreached x else x optarg argv i x x x x save the flag s operand in the correct global variable x switch flagname x case r x rname optarg x break x case b x bname optarg x break x case p x pname optarg x break x case o x oname optarg x break x default x usage x notreached x x x x x verify that we have all of the required flags x x if rname null bname null pname null oname null x usage x notreached x x return x x x x usage print a usage message and exit x x this function does not return x xvoid xusage exitval x int exitval exit with this value x x fprintf stderr x usage s r remarks b build p prog c o ioccc entry n n program x fprintf stderr t r remarks tfile with remarks about the entry n x fprintf stderr t b build tfile containing how prog c should be built n x fprintf stderr t p prog c tthe obfuscated program source file n x fprintf stderr t o ioccc entry tioccc entry output file n x exit exitval x x x x open remark open check the remark file x x the remark file should be indented by spaces and should not extend x beyond column max col these are not requirements so we only warn x x this function returns null on i o or format error x xfile xopen remark filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x char buf bufsiz input buffer x int toolong number of lines that are too long x int non indent number of lines not indented by spaces x x x open the remark input file x x stream fopen filename r x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open remark file s x program filename x perror x return null x x x x look at each line x x while fgets buf bufsiz stream null x x count lines that do not start with spaces x if buf n strncmp buf x non indent x x x count long lines x if col len buf max col x found a line that is too long x toolong x x x x watch for i o errors x check io stream filename eof ok x x note long lines if needed x if toolong x fprintf stderr x s warning d line s from s extend beyond the th column n x program toolong filename x fprintf stderr x s this is ok but it would be nice to avoid n n x program x x x note non indented lines if needed x if non indent x fprintf stderr x s warning d line s from s are not indented by spaces n x program non indent filename x fprintf stderr x s this is ok but it would be nice to avoid n n x program x x x return the open file x rewind stream x return stream x x x x open build open check the build file x x the how to build file must not be longer than max build size bytes x x this function returns null on i o or size error x xfile xopen build filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x struct stat statbuf the status of the open file x x x open the how to build input file x x stream fopen filename r x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open how to build file s x program filename x perror x return null x x x x determine the size of the file x x if fstat fileno stream statbuf x fprintf stderr s cannot stat how to build file s x program filename x perror x return null x x if statbuf st size max build size x fprintf stderr x s fatal the how to build file s is d bytes long n x program filename statbuf st size x fprintf stderr x s it may not be longer than d bytes n x program max build size x return null x x x return the open file x return stream x x x x open program open check the program source file x x the program source file must be bytes the number of x non whitespace and chars not followed by whitespace must x be bytes x x this function returns null on i o or size error x xfile xopen program filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x struct stat statbuf the status of the open file x int count special count size x int c the character read x x x open the program source input file x x stream fopen filename r x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open program source file s x program filename x perror x exit x x x x determine the size of the file x x if fstat fileno stream statbuf x fprintf stderr s cannot stat program source file s x program filename x perror x return null x x if statbuf st size max program size x fprintf stderr x s fatal the program source file s is d bytes long n x program filename statbuf st size x fprintf stderr x s it may not be longer than d bytes n x program max program size x return null x x x x count the non whitespace non followed by whitespace chars x x count x c x while c fgetc stream eof x look at non whitespace x if isascii c isspace c x switch c x case count if not followed by eof or whitespace x case x case x peek at next char x c fgetc stream x if c eof isascii c isspace c x not followed by whitespace or eof count it x ungetc c stream x count x x break x default x count x break x x x x x watch for i o errors x check io stream filename eof ok x x look at the special size x if count max program size x fprintf stderr x s fatal the number of bytes that are non whitespace and n x program x fprintf stderr x s that are not followed by whitespace n x program x fprintf stderr x s or eof must be d bytes n x program max program size x fprintf stderr x s in s d bytes were found n x program filename count x return null x x x return the open file x rewind stream x return stream x x x x open output open check the entry output file x x this function returns null on open error x xfile xopen output filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x x x open the ioccc entry output file x x stream fopen filename w x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open ioccc entry file for output s x program filename x perror x exit x x x return the open file x return stream x x x x output entry output the entry section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the entry section x xvoid xoutput entry output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x char title max title len the entry s title x char buf max col i o buffer x int entry entry number x int ret fields processed by fscanf x int ok line the line is not ok x char skip input to skip x file date pipe pipe to a date command x time t epoch sec seconds since the epoch x char p x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output entry n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the rule year x x fprintf output rule t d n rule year x check io output oname eof not ok x x determine if this is a fix x printf is this a fix update or resubmittion to a x printf previous entry enter y or n x while get line buf buf y buf n x printf nplease answer y or n x x if buf y x fprintf output fix ty n x check io output oname eof not ok x printf nbe sure that the title and entry number that you give n x printf are the same of as the entry you are replacing n x else x fprintf output fix tn n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x x write the title x x printf nyour title must match expression be a a za z character n x printf followed by to d more a za z characters n n x max title len x printf it is suggested but not required that the title should n x printf incorporate your username in the n x printf case of multiple authors consider using parts of the usernames n x printf of the authors n n x printf enter your title x do x prompt and read a line x if ok line get line title max title len max col x printf ntitle is too long please re enter x continue x x x verify the pattern not everyone has regexp so do it by hand x if isascii int title x isalnum int title title title x printf ninvalid first character in the title n n x printf enter your title x ok line x else x for p title p p n p x if isascii int p x isalnum int p x p p p p x printf ninvalid character in the title n n x printf enter your title x ok line x x x x while ok line x fprintf output title t s title x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the entry number x x printf neach person may submit up to d entries per year n n x max entry x printf enter an entry number from to d inclusive max entry x do x get a valid input line x fflush stdout x ret fscanf stdin d n entry x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x skip over input until newline is found x do x skip fgetc stdin x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x if skip n x bad text in input invalidate entry number x entry x x while skip n x x check if we have a number and if it is in range x if ret entry entry max entry x printf x nthe entry number must be between and d inclusive n n x max entry x printf enter the entry number x x while ret entry entry max entry x fprintf output entry t d n entry x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the submission date x x returns a newline x epoch sec time null x fprintf output date t s asctime gmtime epoch sec x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the os machine host information x x printf x nenter the machine s and os s under which your entry was tested n x output till dot output oname host x x x x output remark output the remark section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the entry section x xvoid xoutput remark output oname remark rname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x file remark stream to the file containing remark text x char rname name of the remark file x x char buf bufsiz input output buffer x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output remark n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x copy the remark file to the section x x while fgets buf bufsiz remark null x fputs buf output x check io output oname eof not ok x x check io remark rname eof ok x x be sure that the remark section ends with a newline x if buf strlen buf n x fputc n output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x x x output author output the author section x x read the needed information from stdin and write the author section x if multiple authors exist multiple author sections will be written x xvoid xoutput author output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x char buf max col i o buffer x int more auths true more authors to note x int auth cnt number of authors processed x x x prompt the user for the author section x x printf nenter information about each author if your entry is after n x printf s and before the contest deadline the judges n start date x printf will attempt to email back a confirmation to the first author n x x x place author information for each author in an individual section x x do x x write the start of the section x fprintf output author n x check io output oname eof not ok x x write the author x printf nauthor d name auth cnt x while get line buf max col max col x printf nname too long please re enter x x fprintf output name t s buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x write the organization x printf nenter the school company organization of author d n x auth cnt x printf nauthor d org auth cnt x while get line buf max col max col x printf nline too long please re enter x x fprintf output org t s buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x write the address x printf x nenter the postal address for author d be sure to include n x auth cnt x printf your country and do not include your name n x output till dot output oname addr x x write the email address x printf x nenter the email address for author d use an address from n x auth cnt x printf x a registered domain or well known site if you give several n x printf forms list them one per line n x output till dot output oname email x x write the anonymous status x printf nshould author d remain anonymous enter y or n x auth cnt x while get line buf buf y buf n x printf nplease answer y or n x x fprintf output anon t s buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x determine if there is another author x printf nis there another author enter y or n x while get line buf buf y buf n x printf nplease answer y or n x x if buf y x more auths true x else x more auths false x x while more auths true x return x x x x output info output the info section s x x read the needed information from stdin and write the info section x if multiple info files exist multiple info sections will be written x xvoid xoutput info output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x char infoname max file len filename buffer x char yorn y or n answer x char uuname name to uuencode as x file infile info file stream x x x prompt the user for info information x x printf ninfo files should be used only to supplement your entry n x printf for example info files may provide sample input or detailed n x printf information about your entry because they are supplemental n x printf the entry should not require them to exist n n x x x while there is another info file to save uuencode it x x printf do you have a info file to include enter y or n x while get line yorn yorn y yorn n x printf nplease answer y or n x x while yorn y x x read the filename x printf nenter the info filename x while get line infoname max file len x printf ninfo filename too long please re enter x x x compute the basename of the info filename x remove the trailing newline x uuname infoname strlen infoname x uuname x avoid rindex shrrchr compat issues do it by hand x for uuname uuname infoname uuname x if uuname x uuname x break x x x x attempt to open the info file x infile fopen infoname r x if infile null x fprintf stderr n s cannot open info file s x program infoname x perror x continue x x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output info n x check io output oname eof not ok x x uuencode the info file x uuencode output oname infile infoname uuinfo mode uuname x x printf ndo you have another info file to include enter y or n x while get line yorn yorn y yorn n x printf nplease answer y or n x x x return x x x x output build output the build section x x read the needed information from stdin and write the build section x xvoid xoutput build output oname build bname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x file build open build file stream x char bname name of the build file x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output build n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x uuencode the program file x x uuencode output oname build bname uubuild mode uubuild name x return x x x x output program output the program section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the program section x xvoid xoutput program output oname prog pname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x file prog open program stream x char pname name of program file x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output program n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x uuencode the program file x x uuencode output oname prog pname uuprog mode uuprog name x return x x x x output end output the end section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the end section x xvoid xoutput end output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x x write the final section terminator x x fprintf output end n x check io output oname eof not ok x return x x x x get line get an answer from stdin x x this function will flush stdout in case a prompt is pending and x read in the answer x x this function returns if the line is too long of the length of the x line including the newline of the line was ok this function does x not return if error or eof x xint xget line buf siz maxcol x char buf input buffer x int siz length of input including the newline x int maxcol max col allowed disable check x x int length the length of the input line x x flush terminal output x fflush stdout x x read the line x if fgets buf siz stdin null x report the problem x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x x x look for the newline x length strlen buf x if buf length n x int eatchar the char being eaten x x no newline found line must be too long eat the rest of the line x do x eatchar fgetc stdin x while eatchar eof eatchar n x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x x report the situation x return x x x watch for long lines if needed x if maxcol length maxcol col len buf maxcol x report the situation x return x x x return length x return length x x x x output till dot output a set of lines until by itself is read x x this routine will read a set of lines until but not including x a single line with is read the format of the output is x x leader tfirst line x tnext line x tnext line x x x this routine will not return if i o error or eof x xvoid xoutput till dot output oname leader x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x char leader the lead text for the first line x x char buf bufsiz input buffer x int count lines read x int done false true finished reading input x x instruct the user on how to input x printf nto end input enter a line with a single period n x x read lines until or eof x count x while done x issue the prompt x printf s t count leader x fflush stdout x x get the line x if get line buf bufsiz max col x printf nline too long please re enter n t x continue x x x note if was read x if strcmp buf n x done true x x x write line if we read something x if done x fprintf output s t s count leader buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x x x if no lines read at least output something x if count x fprintf output s t n leader x check io output oname eof not ok x x return x x x x col len determine the highest that a string would reach x x given a string this routine returns that a string would reach x if the string were printed at column tab stops are assumed x to start at x xint xcol len string x char string the string to examine x x int col current column x char p current char x x scan the string x for col p string p p n p x note the column shift x col p t col col x x if p n x col x x x return the highest column x return col x x x x check io check for eof or i o error on a stream x x does not return if eof or i o error x xvoid xcheck io stream name eof ok x file stream the stream to check x char name the name of this stream x int eof ok eof ok or eof not ok x x test for i o error x if ferror stream x fprintf stderr s error on s program name x perror x exit x x test for eof x else if eof ok eof not ok feof stream x fprintf stderr s eof on s n program name x exit x x return x x x x uuencode uuencode a file x x perform the uuencoding process identical to the process performed x by the uuencode utility x x this routine implements the algorithm described in the uuencode x bsd reno man page x xvoid xuuencode output oname infile iname umode uname x file output output file stream x char oname output filename x file infile input file stream x char iname input filename x int umode the mode to put on the uuencode file x char uname name to put on the uuencode file x x char buf uuencode len the uuencode buffer x int read len actual number of chars read x int val bit chunk from buf x char filler filler uuencode pad text x char p x x x output the initial uuencode header x x fprintf output begin o s n umode uname x check io output oname eof not ok x x x clear out the input buffer x x for p buf p buf sizeof buf sizeof buf p x p x x x x we will process uuencode len chars at a time forming x a single output line each time x x while read len fread buf sizeof buf uuencode len infile x x x the first character is the length character x x fputc uuencode read len output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x we will convert bits at a time thus we will convert x sets of bits into sets of uuencoded bits x x for p buf read len read len p x x bits to x val p x f x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x bits to x val p x p x f x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x bits to x val p x c p x x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x bits to x val p x f x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x end of uuencode len line x fputc n output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x clear out the input buffer don t depend on bzero or memset x x for p buf p buf sizeof buf sizeof buf p x p x x x x check the last read on the input file x check io infile iname eof ok x x write end of uuencode file x fprintf output c nend n uuencode filler x check io output oname eof not ok x shar eof chmod mkentry c echo restore of mkentry c failed set wc c mkentry c wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi obfuscate info echo x extracting obfuscate info text sed s x shar eof obfuscate info x obfuscated contest information x xcopyright c landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use is xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission in writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel x xthe international obfuscated c code contest ioccc in the sprit of xco operation is willing mention other programming contents as space xpermits x xhow to have your contest included in this file x x if you wish the ioccc judges to include your contest in this file x send a request to x x judges toad com x x we request that contest descriptions be limited to lines and to x not exceed bytes we typically request that your contest x include a current description of the ioccc x x in order to be included in this file for given year we must x receive a current description no earlier than jan utc and x no later than feb utc agreement to publish your x contest must also be obtained prior to feb annual contests x that fail to submit a new entry will be dropped from this file x xofficial disclaimer pardon the officialese x x the contents noted below other than the ioccc are not affiliated x with the ioccc nor are they endorsed by the ioccc we reserve the x right to refuse to print information about a given contest x x the information below was provided by the particular contest x organizer s and printed by permission please contact the x contest organizer s directly regarding their contents x xwith that official notice given we present for your enjoyment the following xinformation about contents x x x x th international obfuscated c contest x x the original obfuscated contest x x obfuscate tr v cated cating cates a to render obscure x b to darken to confuse their emotions obfuscated x their judgment llat obfuscare to darken ob intensive x lat fuscare to darken fuscus dark obfuscation n x obfuscatory adj x x goals of the contest x x to write the most obscure obfuscated c program under the rules below x to show the importance of programming style in an ironic way x to stress c compilers with unusual code x to illustrate some of the subtleties of the c language x to provide a safe forum for poor c code x x the ioccc is the grandfather of usenet programming contests since x this contest demonstrated that a program that mearly works x correctly is not sufficient the ioccc has also done much to add x the arcane word obfuscated back into the english language x see the new hacker s dictionary by eric raymond x x you are strongly encouraged to read the new contest rules before x sending any entries the rules and sometimes the contest email x address itself change over time a valid entry one year may x be rejected in a later year due to changes in the rules the typical x start date for contests is in early march contest rules are normally not x finalized and posted until the beginning of the contest the typical x closing date for contests are in early may x x the contest rules are posted to comp unix wizards comp lang c x misc misc alt sources and comp sources d if you do not have access x to these groups or if you missed the early march posting you may x request a copy from the judges via email at x x judges toad com or sun uunet utzoo pyramid hoptoad judges x x previous contest winners are available via anonymous ftp from x ftp uu net under the directory pub ioccc x x x x th international obfuscated perl contest x by landon noll larry wall x x this content is being planned someday when landon larry are not too x busy they will actually get around to posting the first set of rules x x landon says yes i know that i said we would have a contest in x but other existing projects got in the way hopefully x something will be developed after nov x x x x nd international obfuscated postscript contest x jonathan monsarrat jgm cs brown edu x alena lacova alena nikhef nl x x a contest of programming skills and knowledge exclusively for the x postscript programming language its purpose x x to spread knowledge of postscript and its details x to applaud those with the best tricks x to prove that humans can beat those damnable machine generators at x their own game by writing the most obscure and mysterious postscript x programs ever x x winners will receive the fame and attention that goes with having their x program entry posted as a winner to programmers world wide x x the contest rules and results are available by ftp as x wilma cs brown edu pub postscript obfuscated shar or individually x in the obfuscated directory the judges will post the rules x in november to comp lang postscript on usenet and other places x send questions to jgm cs brown edu x x categories include best obfuscated postscript best artwork x most compact best interactive program most useful and x anything so unusual and creative that it deserves an award x x the judges will choose the winners of each category x x alena lacova is a system administrator at nikhef institute for high x energy and nuclear physics in the netherlands she is the author of x the postscript chaos programs which draw julia sets mandelbrot sets x and other kinds of fractal functions x x jonathan monsarrat is a graduate student from mit and brown university x in the u s a he is the faq maintainer for the usenet newsgroup x comp lang postscript and the author of the postscript zone and lametex x x shar eof chmod obfuscate info echo restore of obfuscate info failed set wc c obfuscate info wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi exit sunnyvale residents vote landon noll for sunnyvale city council seat
comp.windows.x	x on intel based unix frequently asked questions faq archive name intel unix x faq last modified mar note this is a major re organization and replacement of my frequently asked questions about x faq list this article includes answers to i what options do i have for x software on my intel based unix system free options commercial options ii what is xfree and where do i get it what is xfree what oss are supported what video hardware is supported what about accelerated boards why doesn t xfree support color vga modes what other hardware or software requirements are there where can i get source for xfree where can i get binaries for xfree iv what general things should i know about running xfree installation directories configuration files determining vga dot clocks and monitor modes rebuilding reconfiguring the server from the link kit v what os specific things should i know about running xfree svr svr bsd linux mach vi what things should i know for building xfree from source vii is there anything special about building clients with xfree bsd compatibility library ansiccoptions this article does not include answers to general x questions since these are already covered by the x faq that is regularly posted by david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net if you have anything to add or change on the faq just let me know especially if you had a problem that someone else was able to help you with send changes to steve ecf toronto edu please put faq somewhere in the subject line so that my mail filter will put it in the correct mail folder please do not ask me questions that are not answered in the faq i do not have time to respond to these individually instead post your question to the net and send me the question and answer together when you get it frequently asked questions about x on intel based unix with answers i what options do i have for x software on my intel based unix system free options the best option is xfree which is an enhanced version of x any other version of x will have slower performance and will be more difficult to compile information on how to obtain xfree is listed below x is the port of the x server to system v that was done by thomas roell roell sgcs com it supports a wide variety of svga boards there are major free versions x is based on x r x is included in mit s x r distribution ie you don t need to patch it into the mit source any more x is the current commercial offering from sgcs see below commercial options metro link w mcnab road pompano beach fl fax email sales metrolink com summary os qnx svr svr sco unixware lynxos desqview x venix isc solaris pyramid sunos hw ega vga svga tiga targa a mach s wd fujistu matrox microfield graphics r other motif openlook xview xie imaging extension xv video extension audio drivers multi media sgcs snitily graphics consulting services brookgrove lane cupertino ca fax email info sgcs com or mips zok info summary os svr svr hw a ati ultra s diamond stealth svga other motif dual headed server consensys corporation pat booker rd universal city tx phone fax email info consensys com summary os consensys v consensys version of unix system v release hw x r server support for vga svga other moolit motif x r clients the santa cruz operation inc p o box santa cruz california sco unix fax email info sco com summary os odt odt sco unix v hw x r server support for svga a s tms x wd c xga assorted local bus see sco hardware compatabilty guide for actual card vendors other motif answer software consulting p o box columbus ohio xlab email sales x coher com summary os coherent r or greater hw works with any vesa compliant video note other commercial vendors including os vendors describing bundled software are welcome to submit summary information summary information such as the above ii what is xfree and where do i get it what is xfree xfree is an enhanced version of x which was distributed with x r this release consists of many bug fixes speed improvements and other enhancements here are the highlights of the enhancements the speedup package from glenn lai is an integral part of xfree selectable at run time via the xconfig file some speedups require an et based svga and others require a virtual screen width of the speedups suitable to the configuration are selected by default with a high quality et board vram this can yield up to improvement of the xstones benchmark over x the fx packages from jim tsillas are included as the default operating mode if speedup is not selected this mode is now equivalent in performance to x b x r and approximately faster than x support for localconn compile time selectable for server clients or both this support is for both svr and svr for svr with the advanced compatibility package local connections from sco xsight odt clients are supported drivers for ati and trident tvga c and tvga svga chipsets refer to the files readme ati and readme trident for details about the ati and trident drivers support for compressed bitmap fonts has been added thomas eberhardt s code from the contrib directory on export lcs mit edu type font code from mit contrib tape has been included and is compile time selectable there are contributed type fonts in the contrib directory on export lcs mit edu new configuration method which allows the server s drivers and font renderers to be reconfigured from both source and binary distributions integrated support for bsd mach and linux a monochrome version of the server which will run on generic vga cards is now included the following key features were added with the release of xfree they were not in xfree the monochrome server has been enhanced to do bank switching of available svga memory to allow virtual screens up to x see the x manual page for more information support for the hercules mono card has been added to the monochrome server and with it the ability to support a two headed server one vga and one hercules so far this has only been tested on svr it is also reported to work under linux svr shared libraries tested under isc svr and support for svr there are some special considerations to consider due to new usl bugs see the readme svr file for more information support for ps mice and logitech mouseman trackman some versions of these devices were not previously compatible a new tutorial on how to develop correct video card and monitor timing data written by eric raymond derived from previous documentation and a lot of experimentation greatly improved support for international keyboards including implementation of the compose key functionality found on many vendor servers see the x keybd manual page for more information the accuracy with which the server detects svga pixel clocks has been improved and the timings are now stored at accuracies of mhz users may want to consider removing an existing clocks line from their xconfig file and re probing using the new server many enhancements in error handling and parsing of the xconfig configuration file error messages are much more informative and intuitive and more validation is done there are many new options that can be enabled in the xconfig file see the x manual page for more information on the format of this file plus a number of other small things refer to the changelog file in the source distribution for full details also included are a tutorial on monitor timing by eric raymond and the current x mode database and a sample xdm configuration by david wexelblat what oss are supported xfree supports svr consensys v svr microport dell esix isc at t mst consensys uhc svr isc at t linux mach bsd bsd is not supported but it should work the most active bsd person is greg lehey grog lemis de note that esix d and sco are not supported yet but anyone should feel free to submit patches if you are interested in tackling this send mail to xfree physics su oz au what video hardware is supported at this time xfree supports the following svga chipsets tseng et tseng et paradise pvga western digital wd c wd c wd c these are supersets of the pvga and use its driver genoa gvga trident tvga c tvga ati all of the above are supported in both color and monochrome modes with the exception of the ati chipsets which are only supported in color mode the monochrome server also supports generic vga cards using k of video memory in a single bank and the hercules card on the et only k of video memory is supported for the monochrome server and the gvga has not been tested with more than k it appears that some of the svga card manufacturers are going to non traditional mechanisms for selecting pixel clock frequencies to avoid having to modify the server to accommodate these schemes xfree adds support for using an external program to select the pixel clock this allows programs to be written as new mechanisms are discovered refer to the readme clkprog file for information on how these programs work if you need to write one if you do develop such a program the xfree team would be interested in including it with future xfree releases if you are purchasing new hardware for the purpose of using xfree it is suggested that you purchase an et based board such as the orchid prodesigner iis avoid recent diamond boards xfree will not work with them because diamond won t provide programming details in fact the xfree project is actively not supporting new diamond products as long as such policies remain in effect contributions of code will not be accepted because of the potential liabilities if you would like to see this change tell diamond about it some people have asked if xfree would work with local bus or eisa video cards theoretically the means of communication between the cpu and the video card is irrelevant to xfree compatibility it could be isa eisa or local bus what should matter is the chipset on the video card unfortunately the developers don t have a lot of access to eisa or vlb machines so this is largely an untested theory however we have yet to see any reports of things not working on one of these buses and we have several reports of xfree working fine on them what about accelerated boards at this time there is no support in xfree for accelerated boards like the s ati ultra a tiga etc this support is available in commercial products from sgcs and metrolink for svr and svr an s server is available for bsd and linux contact hasty netcom com for bsd or jon robots ox ac uk for linux a beta a server is available for linux contact martin cs unc edu or jon robots ox ac uk note these servers are not part of xfree why doesn t xfree support color vga modes the reason that this is not supported is the way vga implements the color modes in color modes each byte of frame buffer memory contains pixel but the color modes are implemented as bit planes each byte of frame buffer memory contains bit from each of each of pixels and there are four such planes the mit frame buffer code is not designed to deal with this if vga handled color modes by packing bit pixels into each byte the mit code could be modified to support this or it already may i m not sure but for the vga way of doing things a complete new frame buffer implementation is required some beta testers are looking into this but nothing is yet available from the project what other hardware or software requirements are there obviously a supported svga board and os are required to run x efficiently mb of memory should be considered a minimum the various binary releases take mb of disk space depending on the os e g whether or not it supports shared libraries to build from sources at least mb of free disk space will be required although mb should be considered a comfortable lower bound where can i get source for xfree source patches for the current version based on x r pl from mit are available via anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu under contrib xfree ftp physics su oz au under xfree ftp win tue nl under pub xfree for the rest of this faq these location will be called ftp refer to the readme file under the specified directory for information on which files you need to get to build your distribution where can i get binaries for xfree binaries are available via anonymous ftp from ftp physics su oz au svr binaries under xfree svr ftp win tue nl svr binaries under pub xfree svr ferkel ucsb edu svr binaries under pub svr xfree stasi bradley edu svr binaries under pub xfree svr blancmange ma utexas edu svr isc binaries under pub isc ftp prz tu berlin de svr isc binaries under pub pc isc xfree tsx mit edu linux binaries under pub linux packages x agate berkeley edu bsd binaries under pub bsd ports xfree ftp cs uwm edu mach binaries under i ensure that you are getting xfree some of these sites may archive older releases as well each binary distribution will contain a readme file that describes what files you need to take from the archive and which compile time option selections were made when building the distribution iv what general things should i know about running xfree installation directories the top level installation directory is specified by the projectroot usr x by default variable in config site def binaries include files and libraries are installed in projectroot bin include lib this can be changed when rebuilding from sources and can be modified via symbolic links for those oss that support them this directory is nonstandard and was chosen this way to allow xfree to be installed alongside a commercial vendor supplied x implementation configuration files the xfree server reads a configuration file xconfig on startup the search path contents and syntax for this file are documented in the server manpage which should be consulted before asking questions determining vga dot clocks and monitor modes david e wexelblat dwex mtgzfs att com maintains a database of known clock settings for vga cards and monitor settings the database is installed in usr x lib x etc modedb txt and is in the source tree under mit server ddx x etc this database is also available from him for the latest copy and is kept on export lcs mit edu in contrib x modedb z which is updated occasionally obtain a copy of this database it just might have the settings you need if you create new settings please send them to david for inclusion in the database if this doesn t help you the videomodes doc by eric raymond file with xfree contains tutorials on how to come up with these timings it may be helpful to start with settings that almost work and use this description to get them right when you do send the information to david wexelblat for inclusion in the database note the old clock exe program is not supported any more and is completely unnecessary if you need to determine dot clock values for a new board remove the clocks line from your xconfig file if present and start the server the server will probe for clocks itself and print them out you can use these values to put a clocks line into your xconfig file which is not necessary but will speed up starting the server in the future rebuilding reconfiguring the server from the link kit if you have installed the server binary link kit it is possible to reconfigure the drivers and font renderers in the server this is fully explained in the readme file that is available with the link kit v what os specific things should i know about running xfree first of all the server must be installed suid root mode svr why won t my xterm run properly if your kernel is not built with the consem module you should define consem no in you environment otherwise xterm won t run csh users should use setenv consem no the esix console driver patch is known to cause keymapping problems with xfree it recommended that this patch not be installed alternatively they keymap can be fixed with xmodmap svr make sure you look at ftp readme isc if that s what you are running bsd make sure you look at ftp readme bsd also a separate bsd faq is maintained by richard murphey rich rice edu the latest version should be available in the file xfree bsd faq at the following ftp sites agate berkeley edu pub bsd ports xfree wuarchive wustl edu mirrors bsd ports xfree grasp univ lyon fr pub bsd ports xfree linux you must be running linux pl or greater and have the gcc jump libraries installed make sure the binaries x x mono xload and xterm are setuid root if your kernel doesn t have tcp support compiled in you ll have to run the server as x pn the default startup configuration assumes that tcp is not available if it is change the two files usr x bin startx and usr x lib x xdm xservers removing the pn argument to x make sure dev console is either a link to dev tty or has the major number minor number also note that if dev console is not owned by the user running x then xconsole and xterm will not permit console output redirection xdm will properly change the owner but startx won t when running xdm from rc local you will need to provide it with a tty for example xdm dev console for more detailed information please read the file readme present with the distribution on tsx mit edu mach make sure you look at ftp readme mach vi what things should i know for building xfree from source this section has been removed from the faq since it is fully explained in ftp readme and the os specific readmes please look at those files for information on building xfree vii is there anything special about building clients with xfree bsd compatibility library a lot of clients make use of bsd functions like bcopy etc the default configuration files are set up to link with libxbsd a which contains emulation for bcopy bzero bcmp ffs random seed a better way of providing the b functions is to include x xfuncs h in source files that call them xfuncs h provides macro definitions for these in terms of the sysv mem functions if you are linking with a vendor supplied library which calls some of these functions then you should link with libxbsd a ansiccoptions this is something that was added to allow a developer to get rid of the ansi ness defined in the default ccoptions without having to rewrite the entire ccoptions line for example with stock mit you d see something like ccoptions ansi o fwritable strings and to get rid of the ansi ness the developer would have to put ccoptions o fwritable strings in his imakefile with this change you would see a default of ansiccoptions ansi ccoptions o fwritable strings and all the developer would have to put in the imakefile is ansiccoptions to get rid of the ansi ness many x clients will die a horrible death with ansi the effect is even more dramatic in practice because ccoptions is actually quite complex the other issue is that one must add ansiccoptions ansiccoptions to a passcdebugflags definition xfree contact information ongoing development planning and support is coordinated by the xfree core team at this time the core team consists of the original gang of four david dawes dawes physics su oz au glenn lai glenn cs utexas edu jim tsillas jtsilla damon ccs northeastern edu david wexelblat dwex mtgzfs att com those supporting non sysv operating systems robert baron robert baron ernst mach cs cmu edu mach rich murphey rich rice edu bsd orest zborowski obz kodak com linux e mail sent to xfree physics su oz au will reach all of the core team thanks to all the people who already sent me corrections or additions especially david wexelblat one of the major contributors of updates steve kotsopoulos p eng mail steve ecf toronto edu systems analyst bitnet steve ecf utoronto bitnet engineering computing facility uucp uunet utai ecf steve university of toronto phone
comp.windows.x	comp windows x intrinsics frequently asked questions faq archive name xt faq version id faq xt v ware exp the x toolkit intrinsics f a q a monthly posting this article contains the answers to some frequently asked questions faq from comp windows x about the x toolkit intrinsics to submit questions preferably with an answer send email to ware cis ohio state edu many faqs including this one are available on the archive site rtfm mit edu in the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which a faq is archived appears in the archive name line at the top of the article this faq is archived as xt faq all code fragments are public domain contents xt glossary software versions related faq s why does my application core dump when i use signals alarms cthreads how do i use a different visual than the default which visual should an application use why do only shell widgets have a visual which visual depth and colormap do shells inherit i ve done all the above and i still get a badmatch error why why doesn t my widget get destroyed when i call xtdestroywidget how do i exit but still execute the destroycallbacks how do i resize a shell widget why can t xtappaddinput handle files what good books and magazines are there on xt what widgets are available what alternatives to the intrinsics are there how do i pass a float value to xtsetvalues how do i write a resource converter how do i open multiple displays what changed from r to r to r where are the resources loaded from what order are callbacks executed in how do i know if a widget is visible how do i reparent a widget in xt i e xtreparentwidget why use xtmalloc xtfree etc how to debug an xt application why don t xtaddinput xtaddtimeout and xtaddworkproc work what is and how can i implement drag and drop xt glossary o the xt intrinsics implement an object oriented interface to c code to allow useful graphical components to be created included with this are classes that provide the base functionality object rectobj core composite constraint shell overrideshell wmshell etc the terms xt and intrinsics are used interchangeably however they are used very precisely to mean a specific library of the x window system in particular it does not include the athena motif olit or any other widget set without further widgets the intrinsics are not especially useful o a widget refers to a user interface abstraction created via xt the precise use is any object that is a subclass of the core class it is used loosely to refer to anything that is a subclass of the object class although these are more accurately called windowless widgets or gadgets o xlib is the c interface to the x protocol it is one layer below the xt intrinsics typically a widget uses relatively few xlib functions because xt provides most such services although an understanding of xlib helps with problems software versions the following are the latest versions of xt based software software version released next expected x r patch none x r patch athena widgets see x r motif olit xtra xw x r none xcu x r none fwf related faq s david b lewis uunet craft faq maintains the faq on x it is posted monthly on comp windows x and located on export in contrib faq liam r e quin lee sq sq com posts an faq list on open look to comp windows x jan newmarch jan pandonia canberra edu au posts an faq list on motif to comp windows x motif peter ware ware cis ohio state edu posts an faq list for comp windows x intrinsics it is on export in contrib faq xt why does my application core dump when i use signals alarms cthreads in brief xlib xt and most widget sets have no mutual exclusion for critical sections any interrupt handler is likely to leave one of the above libraries in an inconsistent state such as all the appropriate flags not yet set dangling pointers in the middle of a list traversal etc note that the ansi c standard points out that behavior of a signal handler is undefined if the signal handler calls any function other than signal itself so this is not a problem specific to xlib and xt the posix specification mentions other functions which may be called safely but it may not be assumed that these functions are called by xlib or xt functions the only safe way to deal with signals is to set a flag in the interrupt handler this flag later needs to be checked either by a work procedure or a timeout callback it is incorrect to add either of these in the interrupt handler as another note it is dangerous to add a work procedure that never finishes this effectively preempts any work procedures previously added and so they will never be called another option is to open a pipe tell the event loop about the read end using xtappaddinput and then the signal handler can write a byte to the write end of the pipe for each signal however this could deadlock your process if the pipe fills up why don t the intrinsics deal with this problem primarily because it is supposed to be a portable layer to any hardware and operating system is that a good enough reason i don t think so note the article in the x journal and the example in o reilly volume are in error how do i use a different visual than the default this requires a more complicated answer than it should a window has three things that are visual specific the visual colormap and border pixmap all widgets have their own colormap and borderpixmap resource only shell widgets have visual resources another questions deals with why shells have a visual the default value of these resources is copyfromparent which does exactly what it says in the shell widget copyfromparent gets evalulated as defaultvisualofscreen and defaultcolormapofscreen when any one of the three resources is not properly set a badmatch error occurs when the window is created they are not properly set because each of the values depends on the visual being used how to get this to work there are two parts to the answer the first is if you want an application to start with a particular visual and the second is if you want a particular shell within an application to start with a different visual the second is actually easier because the basic information you need is available the first is a little harder because you ll need to initialize much of the toolkit yourself in order to determine the needed information some sample code to start up an application using something other than the default visual to compile cc g visual c o visual lxaw lxmu lxt lxext lx lm to run visual geometry x depth visual staticcolor fg blue bg yellow you need to move the mouse to get the particular visuals colormap to install include x intrinsic h include x stringdefs h include x shell h typedef struct visual visual int depth optionsrec optionsrec options xtresource resources visual visual xtrvisual sizeof visual xtoffsetof optionsrec visual xtrimmediate null depth depth xtrint sizeof int xtoffsetof optionsrec depth xtrimmediate null xrmoptiondescrec desc visual visual xrmoptionseparg null depth depth xrmoptionseparg null int main argc argv int argc char argv xtappcontext app the application context widget top toplevel widget display dpy display char xargv saved argument vector int xargc saved argument count colormap colormap created colormap xvisualinfo vinfo template for find visual xvisualinfo vinfo list returned list of visuals int count number of matchs only arg args cardinal cnt char name test char class test save the command line arguments xargc argc xargv char xtmalloc argc sizeof char bcopy char argv char xargv argc sizeof char the following creates a dummy toplevel widget so we can retrieve the appropriate visual resource cnt top xtappinitialize app class desc xtnumber desc argc argv string null args cnt dpy xtdisplay top cnt xtgetapplicationresources top options resources xtnumber resources args cnt cnt if options visual options visual defaultvisualofscreen xtscreen top xtsetarg args cnt xtnvisual options visual cnt now we create an appropriate colormap we could use a default colormap based on the class of the visual we could examine some property on the rootwindow to find the right colormap we could do all sorts of things colormap xcreatecolormap dpy rootwindowofscreen xtscreen top options visual allocnone xtsetarg args cnt xtncolormap colormap cnt now find some information about the visual vinfo visualid xvisualidfromvisual options visual vinfo list xgetvisualinfo dpy visualidmask vinfo count if vinfo list count xtsetarg args cnt xtndepth vinfo list depth cnt xfree xpointer vinfo list xtdestroywidget top now create the real toplevel widget xtsetarg args cnt xtnargv xargv cnt xtsetarg args cnt xtnargc xargc cnt top xtappcreateshell char null class applicationshellwidgetclass dpy args cnt display the application and loop handling all events xtrealizewidget top xtappmainloop app return which visual should an application use this is a point that can be argued about but one opinion is there is no way for an application to know the appropriate visual it has to be specified by the user if you disagree with this then your application probably falls into the category of always using the default visual or it is hardware specific and expects some particular visual such as bit truecolor with an overlayplane extension or some such why no application runs in isolation depending on the way a server allocates resources i may not always want your application to run in truecolor mode if it is going to mess up my other applications i may be very upset if it chooses to run in greyscale instead of psuedocolor or just monochrome as an example on a low end color sun server there are many different possible visuals monochrome entry colormap static gray static color and a truecolor the sgi iris s offer all the above plus bit truecolor bit truecolor an overlay plane why do only shell widgets have a visual this is strictly by convention it makes it possible for an arbitrary widget to know that the visual it uses can be found by looking for the shell widget that is its ancestor and obtaining the visual of that shell a widget can have its own visual resource if it does it must have its own realize method to use the visual when it calls xcreatewindow you should also make this a resource that can be obtained with xtgetvalues so other widgets can find it a reasonable value is probably xtnvisual which visual depth and colormap do shells inherit the default value for these resources are set to copyfromparent this is interpreted as the defaultcolormapofscreen defaultdepthofscreen and the default visual of the screen if the widget has no parent i e it is an applicationshellwidgetclass and the root of your widget tree if the parent of the widget is not null then the shell copies colormap and depth from its parent and uses copyfromparent as the visual i ve done all the above and i still get a badmatch error why some resource converters improperly cache references this was especially true of x r and earlier versions of motif why doesn t my widget get destroyed when i call xtdestroywidget see section of the xt specification it eventually does get destroyed just not immediately the intrinsics destroy a widget in a two phase process first it and all of its children have a flag set that indicate it is being destroyed it is then put on a list of widgets to be destroyed this way any pending x events or further references to that widget can be cleaned up before the memory is actually freed the second phase is then performed after all callbacks event handlers and actions have completed before checking for the next x event at this point the list is traversed and each widget s memory is actually free d among other things as some further caveats trivia the widgets may be destroyed if the intrinsics determine that they have no further references to the widgets on the list if so then the phase destruction occurs immediately also if nested event loops are used widgets placed on the destroy list before entering the inner event loop are not destroyed until returning to the outer event loop how do i exit but still execute the destroycallbacks the problem is if a simple and entirely reasonable approach to exiting an application is used such as calling exit directly then a widget may not have a chance to clean up any external state such as open sockets temporary files allocated x resources etc this code for simplicity reasons assumes only a single toplevel widget widget toplevelget gw widget gw widget to find toplevel widget top for top gw xtparent top top xtparent top empty return top void exitcallback gw closure call data widget gw widget xtpointer closure data the app specified xtpointer call data widget specific data widget toplevel toplevel toplevelget gw xtunmapwidget toplevel make it disappear quickly xtdestroywidget toplevel exit one can see that the above code exit s immediately after destroying the toplevel widget the trouble is the phase destruction may never occur this works for most widgets and most applications but will not work for those widgets that have any external state you might think that since it works now it will always work but remember that part of the reason an object oriented approach is used is so one can be ignorant of the implementation details for each widget which means that the widget may change and someday require that some external state is cleaned up by the destroy callbacks one alternative is to modify exitcallback to set a global flag and then test for that flag in a private event loop however private event loops are frowned upon because it tends to encourage sloppy and difficult to maintain practices try the following code instead include x intrinsic h extern widget toplevelget if needfunctionprototypes widget gw endif extern boolean exitworkproc if needfunctionprototypes xtpointer closure endif extern void exitcallback if needfunctionprototypes widget gw xtpointer closure xtpointer call data endif widget toplevelget gw widget gw widget to find toplevel widget top for top gw xtparent top top xtparent top empty return top void exitcallback gw closure call data widget gw widget xtpointer closure data the app specified xtpointer call data widget specific data widget toplevel toplevel toplevelget gw xtunmapwidget toplevel make it disappear quickly xtdestroywidget toplevel xtappaddworkproc xtwidgettoapplicationcontext gw exitworkproc xtpointer null boolean exitworkproc closure xtpointer closure exit notreached exitcallback adds a work procedure that will get called when the application is next idle which happens after all the events are processed and the destroy callbacks are executed how do i resize a shell widget after it is realized one doesn t resize a shell widget the proper thing is to resize the currently managed child of the shell widget using xtsetvalues the geometry change is then propagated to the shell which asks the window manager which may or may not allow the request however the shell must have the resource xtnallowshellresize set to true otherwise it will not even ask the window manager to grant the request and the shell will not resize to change the position of a shell use xtsetvalues on the shell not the child and within the limits of the window manager it should be granted why can t xtappaddinput handle files it does however unix semantics for when i o is ready for a file does not fit most peoples intuitive model in unix terms a file descriptor is ready for reading whenever the read call would not block ignoring the setting of optional flags that indicate not to block this works as expected for terminals sockets and pipes for a file the read will always return but the return indicates an eof i e no more data the result is the code in the intrinsics always calls the input handler because it always thinks something is about to be read the culprit is the select system call or on sysv based os s it is the poll system call how to get around this on a unix system the best approach is to use another process to check for available input on the file use a pipe to connect the application with this other process and pass the file descriptor from the pipe to xtappaddinput a suitable program on bsd systems is tail f filename it s rumored that select on some systems is not completely reliable in particular ibm aix this is one where it would work for a while several thousand times and then stop until some other event woke it up this seemed to be the result of a race condition in the kernel ibm claims to have a fix for this pyramid doesn t work at all ultrix and possibly others where pipes are implemented as sockets wasn t completely broken but although the writing side wrote in byte blocks the reading side received it all broken up as if it was being put into the pipe a byte at a time you can waste a lot of time by reading small blocks get raound it by detecting the situation and having select ignore the pipe for mseconds by then it had been given the whole block note that all the above descriptions used unix terminology such as read file descriptor pipes etc this is an os dependent area and may not be identical on all systems however the intrinsic designers felt it was a common enough operation that it should be included with part of the toolkit why they didn t also deal with signals at this point i don t know what good books and magazines are there on xt i have a favorite that is the definitive reference to my perspective it offers a reasonable introduction but also goes into the full details of the intrinsics when i started using it i was already familiar with xt and the concepts behind it so newcomers may or may not find it useful i ve always found it accurate and complete which means its a pages asente paul j and swick ralph r x window system toolkit the complete programmer s guide and specification digital press isbn order number ey e e dp and by prentice hall isbn also available through dec direct at digital the other book i commonly recomend to novices is young doug the x window system applications and programming with xt motif version prentice hall isbn isbn and of course o reilly has an entire series of manuals on x and xt o reilly ordering is in particular volume is an xt reference done in manual page style the rd edition is extensively overhauled and goes far beyond the mit manual pages i m finding it very useful in particular the permutted index and references to other manual pages help a great deal in chasing down related information i read two periodicals the x resource and the the x journal these are the only two dealing specifically with x the x resource is published quarterly by o reilly with one of the issues being the mit x consortium technical conference proceedings there is no advertising i ve found it informative with pretty good depth for orders call or email cathyr ora com for editorial matters email adrian ora com table of contents are posted at math utah edu in ftp pub tex bib in tex form and on ftp uu net in ftp published oreilly xresource in ascii form the x journal is a bimonthly trade rag with lots of advertising the articles are informative and oriented toward a less technical audience i read it more to see what s going on then with an expectation of learning a great deal but remember i represent a fairly small percentage of people also they have a pretty good collection of people on the advisory board and as columnists call what widgets are available there are three popular widget sets athena the set provided with x this is sufficient for most purposes but is on the ugly side recently a d look is available for ftp on export lcs mit edu contrib xaw d tar z motif from osf available for a license fee and commonly shipped on many workstation vendors platforms almost everyone but sun it looks good and works well but personally i think it is poorly implemented olit the open look intrinsics toolkit is a set of widgets implementing sun s open look specification developed by at t i ve never used it so can t comment on its quality i ve heard rumours that it is a pain to actually get in addition the following collection of widgets are also available xtra a library of widgets for sale from graphical software technology it includes bar graph stacked bar graph line graph pie chart xy plot hypertext help spreadsheet and data entry form widgets i ve never seen them so i can t comment fwf the free widget foundation is attempting to collect a set of freely available widgets included are a pixmap editor filedialog and a few others the current set of widgets can be obtained via anonymous ftp from the machine a cs uiuc edu in the file pub fwf shar z xcu the cornell university widgets from gene dykes one of the early widget sets released provides a nice appearance for buttons and has a mini command language probably not so widely used xs the sony widget set this was around during r days but seemed to disappear it looked like it had promise xw the hp widgets the precursor to motif originally written for r there exists diffs to get it to work under r r again a pretty good widget set but has more or less died the precursor to this was the xray toolkit which was originally implemented for x r and apparently provided much experience for the designers of xt xo a widget set i m working on it s still primitive but you can give it a try in archive cis ohio state edu pub xo the following specialized widgets are also available tbl implements a tabular layout of widgets supports motif widgets as children part of wcl plots the athena plotting widgets not the athena widgets contact gnb bby oz au or joe athena mit edu what alternatives to the intrinsics are there name language vendor xview c sun oi c parcplace interviews c stanford tcl tk c sprite berkeley edu however much i like c and admire the skill in both designing and implementing the intrinsics hopefully some alternative will develop in the next years that uses an object oriented language keep your eyes open and expect some change about the same time a language other than c starts gaining acceptance how do i pass a float value to xtsetvalues first what is going wrong is the structure for an arg is essentially typdef struct string name long value arg and the code arg arg xtsetarg arg name expands to arg arg arg name name arg value you can see that with normal c type conversions the arg value gets the integer instead of the floating point value when the value is copied into the widget resource the bit pattern is wildly different than that required for a floating point value so how to get around this the following macro is from the athena widgets document and i am now recomending it over the previous suggestions define xtsetfloatarg arg n d if sizeof float sizeof xtargval xtsetarg arg n d else xtargval ld xtargval d xtsetarg arg n ld how do i write a resource converter courtesy of rich thomson rthomson dsd es com the following discussion of resource converters assumes r or r intrinsics resource converters changed between r and r to allow for destructors and caching of converted values there are several main types of resource converters string to data type data type to string data type to data type i string to data type usually a string to data type converter has a fixed set of strings that will be converted to data type values this is most often used to map enumerated names to enumerated values name value true false in this case the string to data type converter needs to compare the resource value to the list of fixed strings this is most readily accomplished by the use of the quark mechanism of the resource manager the resource value is turned into a quark which is a unique representation of the string that fits into a single word then the resource quark is compared against the quarks for the fixed strings representing the enumerated values if there are many enumerated strings in the converter or many converters each with a small number of enumeration strings then a global initialization routine might be used to turn all the resource strings into quarks that way the first time one of these converters is used the strings will be turned into quarks and held in static variables for use in the next invocation of one of the converters ii data type to string this type of converter is slightly easier than the string to data type converters since the use of quarks isn t necessary instead the data type value is simply converted to a string value probably by the use of sprintf data type to string converters are useful for applications that wish to convert an internal data type value into a string so that they can write out a valid resource specification to a file this mechanism can be used to provide a snapshot of application state into a file this snapshot can be used to restore the program to a known state via the usual x resource database mechanisms if you are taking the trouble to write a string to data type converter it isn t much extra effort to write the data type to string converter writing both at the same time helps to ensure that they are consistent iii data type to data type this type of converter is used to convert an existing data type value to another data type for instance an x pixel value can be converted to an rgb data type that contains separate fields for red green and blue the type signature for a resource converter is as follows typedef boolean xttypeconverter display xrmvalueptr cardinal xrmvalueptr xrmvalueptr xtpointer display dpy xrmvalueptr args cardinal num args xrmvalueptr fromval xrmvalueptr toval xtpointer converter data when the converter is invoked the fromval argument points to the source x resource manager value and the toval argument points to the destination x resource manager value the converter data argument is an opaque pointer to some converter specific data that is specified when the converter is registered the args and num args arguments allow extra information to be passed to the converter when it is invoked for instance the pixel to rgb structure converter discussed above would need colormap and visual arguments in which to lookup the pixel to obtain the rgb values corresponding to that pixel care must be taken with the toval argument an xrmvalue has the following type definition and specifies a size and location for a converted value typedef struct unsigned int size caddr t addr xrmvalue xrmvalueptr when the converter is invoked the address may point to a location of the given size for the converted value or the location can be null in the former case the converter should ensure that the size of the destination area is large enough to handle the converted value if the destination area is not large enough then the converter should set the size to the amount of space needed and return false the caller can then ensure that enough space is allocated and reinvoke the converter if the size is large enough then the converter can simply copy the converted value into the space given and return true if the location is null then the converter can assign the location to the address of a static variable containing the converted value and return true when writing a group of converters this code is often repeated and it becomes convenient to define a macro define done var type if toval addr if toval size sizeof type toval size sizeof type return false else type toval addr var else toval addr caddr t var toval size sizeof type return true define donestr str if toval addr toval size sizeof string toval size sizeof string return false else toval addr caddr t str toval size sizeof string return true inside the converter it is a good idea to perform a little safety checking on the num args and args arguments to ensure that your converter is being called properly once you have written your converter you need to register it with the intrinsics the intrinsics invokes resource converters when creating widgets and fetching their resource values from the resource database to register a converter with a single application context use xtappsettypeconverter void xtappsettypeconverter context from to converter args num args cache destructor xtappcontext context string from string to xttypeconverter converter xtconvertarglist args cardinal num args xtcachetype cache xtdestructor destructor to register a converter with all application contexts use xtsettypeconverter void xtsettypeconverter from to converter args num args cache destructor string from string to xttypeconverter converter xtconvertarglist args cardinal num args xtcachetype cache xtdestructor destructor in the r intrinsics there were the routines xtappaddconverter and xtaddconverter these have been superseded by xtappsettypeconverter and xtsettypeconverter whenever possible the newer routines should be used when a converter is registered with the intrinsics a cache argument specifies how converted resource values are to be cached xtcachenone don t cache any converted values xtcacheall cache all converted values xtcachebydisplay cache converted values on a per display basis caching converted values that require a round trip to the server is a good idea for instance string to pixel conversions the destructor argument is a routine that is invoked then the resource is destroyed either because its cached reference count has been decremented to zero or because the widget owning the value is being destroyed xtdestructor has the following type definition typedef void xtdestructor xtappcontext xrmvalueptr xtpointer xrmvalueptr cardinal xtappcontext context xrmvalueptr to xtpointer converter data xrmvalueptr args cardinal num args the destructor is invoked to free any auxiliary storage associated with the to argument but does not actually free the storage pointed to by the to argument itself to addr the destructor is passed the extra arguments that were passed to the converter when the conversion was performed for instance colormap and visual arguments for the string to pixel converter since the destructor would need to free the allocated pixel from the colormap as well as the private data passed in when the converter was registered sample converter code can be found in the following files in the mit r distribution mit lib xt converters c contrib lib pext converters c contrib lib pext converters h how do i open multiple displays see multi user application software using xt the x resource issue summer by oliver jones for a complete coverage of the issues involved most of this answer is based on that article in a nutshell one uses xtopendisplay to add each display to a single application context and then xtclosedisplay to shutdown each display and remove it from the application context the real problems occur when trying to close down a display this can happen ways user selects a quit button on one of the displays user has window manager send a wm delete window message server disconnect possibly from a killclient message server shutdown crash or network failure i ll assume you can deal gracefully with since it is merely a problem of translating a widget to a display and removing that display if not then read the oliver jones article the third one is difficult to handle the following is based on the oliver jones article and i include it here because it is a difficult problem the difficulty arises because the xlib design presumed that an i o error is always unrecoverable and so fatal this is essentially true for a single display x based application but not true for a multiple display program or an application that does things other than display information on an x server when an x i o error occurs the i o error handler is called and if it returns then an exit happens the only way around this is to use setjmp longjmp to avoid returning to the i o error handler the following code fragment demonstrates this include setjmp h jmp buf xiorecover void xiohandler dpy display dpy destroydisplay dpy longjmp xiorecover main if setjmp xiorecover xsetioerrorhandler xiohandler xtappmainloop app context the destroydisplay is something that given a display pointer can go back to the application specific data and perform any necessary cleanup it should also call xtclosedisplay for those of you unfamiliar with setjmp longjmp when setjmp is first called it returns a and save s enough information in the jmp buf that a latter execution of longjmp can return the program to the same state as if the setjmp was just executed the return value of this second setjmp is the value of the second argument to longjmp there are several caveats about using these but for this purpose it is adequate some other problems you might run into are resource converters that improperly cache resources the most likely symptoms are xlib errors such as badcolor badatom or badfont there may be problems with the total number of displays you can open since typically only a limited number of file descriptors are available with being a typical value you may also run into authorization problems when trying to connect to a display there was much discussion in comp windows x about this topic in november of robert scheifler posted an article which basically said this is the way it will be and xlib will not change what changed from r to r to r this addresses only changes in the intrinsics first the general changes for each release are described then a certainly incomplete list of new functions added and others that are now deprecated are listed brevity is a primary goal much of the following information is retrieved from chapter of the mit xt intrinsics manual and from o reilly volume rd edition from r to r addition of gadgets windowless widgets new resource type converter interface to handle cacheing and additional data variable argument list interface define xtspecificationrelease added with this release wmshellpart toplevelshellpart transientshellpart changed incompatibly core initialize core set values added arglist and count parameters event handlers had continue to dispatch parameter added core set values almost specification changed core compress exposure changed to an enumerated data type from boolean core class inited changed to enumerated data type from boolean constraint get values hook added to extension record core initialize hook obsolete as info is passed to core initialize shell root geometry manager added to extension record core set values hook obsolete as info is passed to core set values calling xtquerygeometry must store complete geometry added unrealizecallback xttranslatecoords actually works under r from r to r psuedo resource basetranslation added searching for app default and other files made more flexible customization resource added per screen resource database support permanently allocated strings permanetly allocated strings required for several class fields the args argument to xtappinitialize xtvaappinitialize xtopendisplay xtdisplayinitialize and xtinitialize were changed from cardinal to int many performance improvements this is summarized from the article xt performance improvements in release by gabe beged dov in the x resource issue xrmstringtoquark augmented with xrmpermstringtoquark to avoid string copies several fields in the class record are indicated as needing permanent strings using an array of strings for resources callback lists redesigned to use less memory translation manager redesigned and rewritten so it takes less memory translation tables merges are faster cache of action bindings keycode to keysyms are cached better sharing of gc s with modifiable fields window to widget translation uses less space and faster does not malloc space for widget name since quark is available widget space is allocated to include the constraints over several example programs about a reduction in memory usage functions new with r xtallocategc sharable gc with modifiable fields xtgetactionlist get the action table of a class xtscreendatabase return resource database for a screen xtsetlanguageproc register language procedure called to set locale functions new with r xtappaddactionhook procedure to call before every action xtappinitialize lots of initialization work xtappreleasecacherefs decrement cache reference count for converter xtappsetfallbackresources specify default resources xtappsettypeconverter register a new style converter xtcallcallbacklist directly execute a callback list xtcallconverter invoke a new style converter xtcallbackreleasecacheref release a cached resource value xtcallbackreleasecachereflist release a list of cached resource values xtconvertandstore find and call a resource converter xtdirectconvert invoke old style converter xtdisplayofobject return the display xtdisplaystringconversionwarning issue a warning about conversion xtfindfile find a file xtgetactionkeysym retrieve keysym modifies for this action xtgetapplicationnameandclass return name and class xtgetconstraintresourcelist get constraints for a widget xtgetkeysymtable return keycode to keysym mapping table xtgetmulticlicktime read the multi click time xtgetselectionrequest retrieve the selectionrequest event xtgetselectionvalueincremental obtain the selection value incrementally xtgetselectionvaluesincremental obtain the selection value incrementally xtinitializewidgetclass initialize a widget class manually xtinserteventhanlder register event handler before after others xtinsertraweventhandler register event handler without modify input mask xtisobject test if subclass of object xtisrectobj test if subclass of rectobj xtkeysymtokeycodelist return list of keycodes xtlasttimestampprocessed retrieve most recent event time xtmenupopdown action for popping down a widget xtmenupopup action for popping up a widget xtoffsetof macro for structure offsets xtownselectionincremental make selection data availabe incrementally xtpoupspringloaded map a spring loaded popup xtregistergrabaction indicate action procedure needs a passive grab xtremoveactiohhook remove function called after every action xtresolvepathname find a file xtscreenofobject return screen of object xtsetmulticlicktime set the multi click time xtsetwmcolormapwindows set wm colormap windows for custom colormaps xtungrabbutton cancel a passive button grab xtungrabkey cancel a passive key grab xtungrabkeybard release an active keyboard grab xtungrabpointer release an active pointer grab xtva varags interfaces to a bunch of functions xtwindowofobject return window of nearest widget ancestor deprecated replacement when xtaddactions xtappaddactions r xtaddconverter xtappaddconverter r xtaddinput xtappaddinput r xtaddtimeout xtappaddtimeout r xtaddworkproc xtappaddworkproc r xtconvert xtconvertandstore r xtcreateapplicationshell xtappcreateshell r xtdestroygc xtreleasegc r xterror xtapperror r xtgeterrordatabase xtappgeterrordatabase r xtgeterrordatabasetext xtappgeterrordatabasetext r xtgetselectiontimeout xtappgetselectiontimeout r xtinitialize xtappinitialize r xtmainloop xtappmainloop r menupopdown action xtmenupopdown action r menupopup action xtmenupopup action r xtnextevent xtappnextevent r xtpeekevent xtapppeekevent r xtpending xtapppending r xtseterrorhandler xtappseterrorhandler r xtseterrormsghandler xtappseterrormsghandler r xtsetselectiontimeout xtappsetselectiontimeout r xtsetwarninghandler xtappsetwarninghandler r xtsetwarningmsghandler xtappsetwarningmsghandler r xtwarning xtappwarning r xtwarningmsg xtappwarningmsg r where are the resources loaded from the resources of a widget are filled in from the following places from highest priority to lowest priority args passed at creation time command line arguments user s per host defaults file user s defaults file user s per application default file system wide per application default file note that are read only once on application startup the result of steps is a single resource database used for further queries the per host defaults file contains customizations for all applications executing on a specific computer this file is either specified with the xenvironment environment variable or if that is not set then the file home xdefaults host is used the user defaults file is either obtained from the resource manager property on the root window of the display or if that is not set then the file home xdefaults is used typically the program xrdb is used to set the resource manager property please note that this should be kept relatively small as each client that connects to the display must transfer the property a size of around kbyte is reasonable some toolkits may track changes to the resource manager but most do not a user may have many per application default files containing customizations specific to each application the intrinsics are quite flexible on how this file is found read the next part that describes the various environment variables and how they effect where this file is found the system wide per application default files are typically found in usr lib x app defaults if such a file is not found then the fallback resources are used the intrinsics are quite flexible on how this file is found read the next part that describes the various environment variables and how they effect where this file is found thanks to oliver jones oj pictel com for the following you can use several environment variables to control how resources are loaded for your xt based programs xfilesearchpath xuserfilesearchpath and xapplresdir these environment variables control where xt looks for application defaults files as an application is initializing xt loads at most one app defaults file from the path defined in xfilesearchpath and another from the path defined in xuserfilesearchpath set xfilesearchpath if software is installed on your system in such a way that app defaults files appear in several different directory hierarchies suppose for example that you are running sun s open windows and you also have some r x applications installed in usr lib x app defaults you could set a value like this for xfilesearchpath and it would cause xt to look up app defaults files in both usr lib x and usr openwin lib or wherever your openwinhome is located setenv xfilesearchpath usr lib x t n openwinhome lib t n the value of this environment variable is a colon separated list of pathnames the pathnames contain replacement characters as follows see xtresolvepathname n the value of the filename parameter or the application s class name t the value of the file type in this case the literal string app defaults c customization resource r only s suffix none for app defaults l language locale and codeset e g ja jp euc l language part of l e g ja t the territory part of the display s language string c the codeset part of the display s language string let s take apart the example suppose the application s class name is myterm also suppose open windows is installed in usr openwin notice the example omits locale specific lookup usr lib x t n means usr lib x app defaults myterm openwinhome lib t n means usr openwin lib app defaults myterm as the application initializes xt tries to open both of the above app defaults files in the order shown as soon as it finds one it reads it and uses it and stops looking for others the effect of this path is to search first in usr lib x then in usr openwin let s consider another example this time let s set xuserfilesearchpath so it looks for the file myterm ad in the current working directory then for myterm in the directory app defaults setenv xuserfilesearchpath n ad home app defaults n the first path in the list expands to myterm ad the second expands to home app defaults myterm this is a convenient setting for debugging because it follows the imake convention of naming the app defaults file myterm ad in the application s source directory so you can run the application from the directory in which you are working and still have the resources loaded properly note when looking for app default files with xuserfilesearchpath for some bizarre reason neither the type nor file suffix is defined so t and s are useless with r there s another twist you may specify a customization resource value for example you might run the myterm application like this myterm xrm customization color if one of your pathname specifications had the value usr lib x app defaults n c then the expanded pathname would be usr lib x app defaults myterm color because the c substitution character takes on the value of the customization resource the default xfilesearchpath compiled into xt is usr lib x l t n c r usr lib x l t n c r usr lib x t n c r usr lib x l t n usr lib x l t n usr lib x t n note some sites replace usr lib x with a projectroot in this batch of default settings the default xuserfilesearchpath also compiled into xt is root l n c r root l n c r root n c r root l n root l n root n root is either the value of xapplresdir or the user s home directory if xapplresdir is not set if you set xuserfilesearchpath to some value other than the default xt ignores xapplresdir altogether notice that the quick and dirty way of making your application find your app defaults file in your current working directory is to set xapplresdir to a single dot in r all this machinery worked differently for r compatibilty many people set their xapplresdir value to a dot followed by a slash what order are callbacks executed in courtesy of donna converse converse expo lcs mit edu the intrinsics library do not guarantee an order this is because both the widget writer and the application writer have the ability to modify the entire contents of the callback list neither one currently knows what the other is doing and so the intrinsics cannot guarantee the order of execution the application programmer cannot rely on the widget writer the widget writer is not required to document when the widget will add and remove callbacks from the list or what effect this will have therefore the functionality contained in a callback should be independent of the functionality contained in other callbacks on the list even though the xt standard in the definition of xtaddcallback says callback name specifies the callback list to which the procedure is to be appended you may not infer from the word appended that the callback routines are called in the same order as they have been added to the callback list how do i know if a widget is visible courtesy of donna converse converse expo lcs mit edu i am building a widget needs to know if it is visible i set the visible interest field in core and if my window is completely obscured the core visible flag goes false however if my window is iconified the flag stays set to true right everything is implemented correctly this demonstrates a deficiency in the x protocol and the core widget is reflecting the capabilities of the protocol the deficiency is that the information is available in one way in this case an inconvenient way the xt specification is accurate in the second and third paragraphs of section so read this section carefully the visible field will not change in response to iconification a visibilitynotify event will not be received when the window goes from viewable to unviewable that is when the widget or an ancestor is unmapped that is when iconification occurs this is the protocol deficiency visibility state and viewable state have specific meanings in the x protocol see the glossary in your xlib and x protocol reference manual is this a problem with mwm or is there something else which needs to be done you ll see this with any window manager with no window manager if the problem is mwm what is the fastest way to determine if a window is iconified as an application writer keep track with a global boolean in an action routine with translations for mapnotify and unmapnotify on the shell widget which contains your custom widget as the custom widget writer see the map state field returned by a call to xgetwindowattributes these are suggestions how do i reparent a widget in xt i e xtreparentwidget you can t why use xtmalloc xtfree etc unfortunately most code that calls malloc realloc or calloc tends to ignore the possibility of returning null at best it is handled something like ptr type malloc sizeof type if ptr perror malloc in xyzzy exit to handle this common case the intrinsics define the functions xtmalloc xtcalloc xtnew xtnewstring and xtrealloc which all use the standard c language functions malloc calloc and realloc but execute xterrormsg if a null value is returned xt error handlers are not supposed to return so this effectively exits in addition if xtrealloc is called with a null pointer it uses xtmalloc to get the initial space this allows code like if ptr ptr type malloc sizeof type else ptr type realloc ptr sizeof type count count to be written as ptr xtrealloc ptr sizeof ptr count also xtfree accepts a null pointer as an argument generally i ve found the xt functions conveniant to use however anytime i m allocating anything potentially large i use the standard functions so i can fully recover from not enough memory errors xtnew and xtnewstring are conveniant macros for allocating a structure or copying a string struct abc xyzzy char ptr char str abcdef xyzzy xtnew struct abc takes care of type casting ptr xtnewstring str a strict interpretation of the intrinsics reference manual allow an implementation to provide functions that are not exchangable with malloc and free i e code such as char ptr ptr xtmalloc free ptr may not work personally i d call any implementation that did this broken and complain to the vendor a common error for motif programmers is to use xtfree on a string when they should really be using xmstringfree how to debug an xt application first i d recomend getting purify from pure software this is a great package for tracing memory problems on sun s it s a bit pricey at but i d still recomend it excuse the marketing blurb contact support pure com for more info purify inserts additional checking instructions directly into the object code produced by existing compilers these instructions check every memory read and write performed by the program under test and detect several types of access errors such as reading unitialized memory writing past malloc d bounds or writing to freed memory purify inserts checking logic into all of the code in a program including third party and vendor object code libraries and verifies system call interfaces in addition purify tracks memory usage and identifies individual memory leaks using a novel adaption of garbage collection techniques purify s nearly comprehensive memory access checking slows the target program down typically by a factor of two to five an alternative package that isn t as pricey for a sun runs on many unix s and has pretty similar features is the sentinel debugging environment this replaces malloc and several other c library functions to add additional checks contact cpcahil virtech vti com for more info next if you are getting any sort of xlib error you ll need to run in synchronous mode easily accomplished with the sync command line argument or by setting the variable xdebug to with your debugger then set a break point in exit this will let you trace back to the original xlib function being called if you don t run in synchronous mode then the actual error may have occured any number of calls to xlib previously since the xlib calls are buffered and replies from the server are asynchronous next if you are having trouble with window layout you can use the undocumented resource xtidentifywindows or the class resource xtdebug to cause the widget name to be identified with each window for example example xload xrm xtdebug true example xwininfo tree click in new xload window will give the normal information but the widget name and class of each window is included this can help for checking the location and size of errant widgets next if you are having trouble with geometry managers or you want to test the way a widget manages it s children you can try export lcs mit edu contrib libxtgeo tar z this acts as a filter between any children and a geometry manager and checks the behaviour of both it s a very clever idea the most unfortunate problem is debugging a callback while the application is executing a grab of the keyboard or mouse such as from a pulldown menu the server effectively locks up and you ll need to go to another machine and kill the debugger manually the server locks up because the application being debugged has said no one else can have access to the keyboard but the application is not stopped waiting because the debugger is waiting for your commands unfortunately you can t give them because all the input is going to your application which is stopped the best way to debug this kind of problem is with two machines on your desk running the program under a debugger or other environment on one machine and running the application on the other possibly using a command sequence like this othermachine xhost thismachine thismachine setenv display othermachine thismachine gdb application your favorite debugger or this othermachine xhost thismachine thismachine gdb application gdb set environment display othermachine gdb run i believe codecenter a c interpreter graphical debugger has a method of dealing with this by explicitely calling the xlib functions to release any grabs during breakpoints debugging widget problems requires pretty good debugging skills and knowledge of how widgets work you can go a long way without knowing the internals of a particular widget but not very far without understanding how a widget works judicious use of conditional breakpoints and adding print statements with the debugger help a great deal why don t xtaddinput xtaddtimeout and xtaddworkproc work i have got a delicate problem with the three routines xtaddinput xtaddtimeout and xtaddworkproc the problem i have is that when i use them in my application they seem not to be registred properly i have made a handy little testprogram where everything works perfect but in my real application nothing happens the introduction in r of the xtapp functions obsoleted those routines see q for other changes in r r and r what happens is they use a default application context different then the one you may have created since events and timeouts are distributed on a per application context basis and you are using two application contexts you won t get those events for example cnt toplevel xtappinitialize app class desc xtnumber desc argc argv fallback args cnt xtaddtimeout xtaddworkproc xtappmainloop app would never invoke the timeout what is and how can i implement drag and drop courtesy of roger reynolds rogerr netcom com feb drag n drop is a buzzword for moving data between clients in an intuitive fashion motif version supports drag n drop capabilities openlook has supported d n d all along the two protocols are not compatable with each other and so far as i know they are not published i wrote a package called rdd which is designed to be a flexible public protocol for doing drag n drop operations between clients my intention was to provide a tool which would make it easy for people to support a standard drag n drop protocol in the programs they develop and contribute or sell regardless of what widget set is used as long as it is based on xt the implementation is based upon my understanding of the icccm conventions for more details read the code i have heard from dozens of people using rdd who like it and feel that it works a whole lot better than motif stuff also there seem to be many who think that it is neat but are constrained to use motif anyway the latest rdd and some other stuff is available for ftp from netcom com in pub rogerr a possibly older version is also available on export lcs mit edu in contrib pete ware ware cis ohio state edu cis dept ohio state university w bolz hall neil ave h columbus oh
comp.windows.x	re teleuse uim x and c in article apr ctp com hubec ctp com hubert chou writes does anyone have any good ideas on how to integrate c code elegantly with teleuse uim x interface architect generated code source would be great but any suggestions are welcome hubie chou hubec ctp com i don t know a great deal about the support for c in uim x but i can tell you that there is good support for it in teleuse in teleuse you can call any c method from a d module what you can do then is to use the d language for most of your interface code and then use c for you application code i should tell you that there is some real neat stuff coming out of teleuse soon in regard to c but i can t give you many details you should talk to your local sales rep and get the lowdown on what they will be doing in the near furture if you want example code of how c integrates with teleuse you should look at teleuse examples thermometer steve vranyes voice e mail stevevr ecs comm mot com u s post motorola inc e algonquin rd schaumburg il
comp.windows.x	xv root with vue was re xloadimage onroot on a related note how can i use xv to display colored gifs on my root display with hp vue all i can do with vue is display xbm s through their backdrop style manager xv does not seem to be able to override whatever vue puts there thanks jan jan vandenbrande jan ug eds com new address jan lipari usc edu school address forwards uucp uunet uupsi ug jan
comp.windows.x	strange exposure problem hi i m trying to write a motif program on an interactive unix machine and i m observing very strange behavior when my program attempts to expose a drawingarea namely some xlib operations work and some do not in particular the expose consist of two xfillrectangle calls followed by some xdrawpoint calls and for reasons unknown to me the point calls are failing whenever a pulldown or popup up menu is clicked on and moved in the rightward direction over the drawing area but after the move is still on some part of the drawing area this also happens less consistently when the pulldown popup is moved in the leftward direction assuming that my code is not doing anything incredibly odd is this a server bug thanks zack t smith
comp.windows.x	x for pc i have heard of two packages for the pc that support x win the first is linux which is a free unix package the second is x appeal which sounds pretty good it can be found at garbo uwusa fi in the ftp pc demo dir the files are xap exe zip xap fon zip drivers zip this should get you started josh joshua weage u s snail spring rd baroda mi e mail cs freenet in a cwru edu ai yfn ysu edu fidonet joshua weage all ideas are my own and no one elses
comp.windows.x	q how to avoid xopendisplay hang i m writing xwall a simple x version of wall and i want it to put a message up on each of a default list of displays the problem is that xopendisplay hangs if one of the displays is currently controlled by xdm login screen i ve been through the manuals and faq and don t see a simple way to see if a display is openable ahead of time or to get xopendisplay to fail after a short period of time any hints suggestions clues or pointers to info thanks andy moore andy ice stx com you could say i ve lost faith in the politicians they all seem like game show hosts to me sting
comp.windows.x	widget source code needed i m considering writing my own widgets but i like to have some sample widget source code to look over first where could i find something like this are there any archives accessible by anonymous ftp that contain such information thanks edward
comp.windows.x	converting color gif to x pixmap i have looked through the faq sections and have not seen a answer for this i have an x motif application that i have written i have a couple of gif files or pict that i have scanned in with a color scanner now i would like to be able to convert the gif files into a format that could be read into my application and displayed on the background of its main window preferably with pixmaps or perhaps as an ximage i have found functions in the pbmplus program suite to convert gif to xbm but that is monochrome and i really do need color i have looked at xv which reads in gif and writes out several formats but have not found a way to write out a file which can be read in as a pixmap is there an easy way to do this email responses preferred thanks mark ahlenius rtsg mot com regards mark mark ahlenius voice email ahlenius marble rtsg mot com motorola inc fax arlington hts il usa
comp.windows.x	re honors degrees do they mean anything what has this got to do with comp windows x o o oo oo justin kibell systems programmer xmelba project team c a t t collaborative information technology research institute melbourne vic internet jck jaguar catt citri edu au phone australia
comp.windows.x	help building x r with gcc can people please send me any hints on building x r with gcc is there any pitfalls to be avoided any hints i would appreciate hearing other peoples stories on this tim tim liddelow for fork systems programmer centre of advanced technology in telecommunications my brain on a bad day citri melbourne australia internet tim kimba catt citri edu au phone fax
comp.windows.x	reposting th international obfuscated c code contest rules of we have received a number of requests for a reposting of the international obfuscated c code contest rules and guidelines also some people requested that these rules be posted to a wider set of groups sorry for the cross posting some technical clarifications were made to the rules and guidelines see the diff marks at the right hand edge the rules and guidelines for this year remain the same so people who have already or are in the process of submitting entries for the ioccc need not worry about these changes chongo landon curt noll cc chongo toad com larry bassel lab sun com bin sh this is a shell archive shar made utc by chongo toad com source directory tmp existing files will be overwritten this shar contains length mode name r r r rules r r r guidelines r r r mkentry c r r r obfuscate info rules echo x extracting rules text sed s x shar eof rules x th international obfuscated c code contest rules x xcopyright c landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use is xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission in writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel x x obfuscate tr v cated cating cates a to render obscure x b to darken to confuse his emotions obfuscated his x judgment llat obfuscare to darken ob intensive x lat fuscare to darken fuscus dark obfuscation n x obfuscatory adj x x xgoals of the contest x x to write the most obscure obfuscated c program under the rules below x to show the importance of programming style in an ironic way x to stress c compilers with unusual code x to illustrate some of the subtleties of the c language x to provide a safe forum for poor c code x x xnote changes from the draft are noted by change bars x x xrules x x to help us with the volume of entries we ask that you follow these rules x x your entry must be a complete program x x your entry must be bytes in length the number of characters x excluding whitespace tab space newline and excluding any or x followed by either whitespace or end of file must be x x your entry must be submitted in the following format x x entry xrule xfix y or n n this is a new entry y this replaces an older entry xtitle title of entry see comments below xentry entry number from to inclusive your st entry should by xdate date time of submission in utc see comments below xhost machine s and os s under which your entry was tested x use tab indented lines if needed x remark x place remarks about this entry in this section it would be helpful if x you were to indent your remarks with spaces though it is not a x requirement also if possible try to avoid going beyond the th x column blank lines are permitted x author xname your name xorg school company organization xaddr postal address x use tab indented lines to continue x don t forget to include the country xemail email address from a well known site or registered domain x if you give several forms list them on separate tab indented lines xanon y or n y remain anonymous n ok to publish this info x info xif your program needs an info file place a uuencoded copy of it in xthis section in the case of multiple info files use multiple info xsections if your entry does not need a info file skip this section x build xplace a uuencoded copy of the command s used to compile build your program xin this section it must uudecode into a file named build the resulting xfile must be bytes or less x program xplace a uuencoded copy of your program in this section it must uudecode xinto a file named is prog c the resulting file must follow rule x end x x regarding the above format x x the title must match the expression a za z a za z x and must be to characters in length x x it is suggested but not required that the title should x incorporate your username in the case of multiple authors x consider using parts of the usernames of the authors x x the date in the entry section should be given with respect x to utc the format of the date should be as returned by asctime x using the c locale see guidelines for more info x x you may correct revise a previously submitted entry by sending x it to the contest email address be sure to set fix in the x entry section to n the corrected entry must use the same x title and entry number as submittion that is being corrected be x sure that you note the resubmittion in the remark as well x x with the exception of the header all text outside of the above x format may be ignored by the judges if you need tell the judges x something put it in the remark section or send a separate x email message to the judges x x information from the author section will be published unless x y was given to the respective author s anon line x x to credit multiple authors include an author section for x each author each should start with author line and x should be found between the entry and build sections x x the entry s remarks should include x what this program does x how to run the program sample args or input x special compile or execution instructions if any x special filename requirements see rule and x information about any data files x why you think the program is obfuscated x note if this entry is a re submission of a previous entry x any other remarks humorous or otherwise x x do not rot your entry s remarks you may suggest that certain x portions of your remarks be rot ed if your entry wins an award x x info files should be used only to supplement your entry they x should not be required to exist x x if your entry does not need an info file skip the info x section if your entry needs multiple info files use multiple x info sections one per info file you should describe x each info file in the remark section x x if your entry is selected as a winner it will be modified as follows x x build is incorporated into a makefile and build is removed x prog c is renamed to your entry s title followed by an optional x digit followed by c x your entry is compiled into a file with the name of your entry s x title possibly followed by a digit x x if your entry requires that a build file exist state so in your x entry s remark section the makefile will be arranged to execute a x build shell script containing the build information the name of x this build shell script will be your entry s title possibly followed x by a digit followed by sh x x if needed your entry s remarks should indicate how your entry must x be changed in order to deal with the new filenames x x the build file the source and the resulting executable should be x treated as read only files if your entry needs to modify these files x it should make and modify a copy of the appropriate file if this x occurs state so in your entry s remarks x x entries that cannot be compiled by an ansi c compiler will be rejected x use of common c k r extensions is permitted as long as it does not x cause compile errors for ansi c compilers x x the program must be of original work all programs must be in the x public domain all copyrighted programs will be rejected x x entries must be received prior to may utc utc is x essentially equivalent to greenwich mean time email your entries to x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad obfuscate x obfuscate toad com x x we request that your message use the subject ioccc entry x x if possible we request that you hold off on emailing your entries x until mar utc early entries will be accepted however x we will attempt to email a confirmation to the the first author for x all entries received after mar utc x x each person may submit up to entries per contest year each entry x must be sent in a separate email letter x x entries requiring human interaction to be built are not allowed x compiling an entry produce a file or files which may be executed x x programs that require special privileges setuid setgid super user x special owner or group are not allowed x x xfor more information x x the judging will be done by landon noll and larry bassel please send x questions or comments about the contest to x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for x judges toad com submitting entries x x the rules and the guidelines may and often do change from year to x year you should be sure you have the current rules and guidelines x prior to submitting entries to obtain them send email to the address x above and use the subject send rules x x one may obtain winners of previous contests to date via ftp from x x host ftp uu net x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x as a last resort previous winners may be obtained by sending email x to the above address please use the subject send year winners x where year is a single digit year a year range or all x x xchongo landon curt noll cc chongo toad com xlarry bassel lab sun com shar eof chmod rules echo restore of rules failed set wc c rules wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi guidelines echo x extracting guidelines text sed s x shar eof guidelines x th international obfuscated c code contest guidelines hints and comments x xcopyright c landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use is xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission in writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel x xabout this file x x this file is intended to help people who wish to submit entries to x the international obfuscated c code contest ioccc for short x x this is not the ioccc rules though it does contain comments about x them the guidelines should be viewed as hints and suggestions x entries that violate the guidelines but remain within the rules are x allowed even so you are safer if you remain within the guidelines x x you should read the current ioccc rules prior to submitting entries x the rules are typically sent out with these guidelines x x changes from the draft are noted by change bars x x xwhat is new in x x the entry format is better for us anyway the program mkentry c x has been updated see entry format x x we will reject entries that cannot be compiled using an ansi c x compiler certain old obfuscation hacks that cause ansi c compilers x fits are no longer permitted some of the new issues deal with x non integral array types variable number of arguments c preprocessor x directives and the exit function see our likes and dislikes x x xhints and suggestions x x you are encouraged to examine the winners of previous contests see x for more information for details on how to get previous winners x x keep in mind that rules change from year to year so some winning entries x may not be valid entries this year what was unique and novel one year x might be old the next year x x an entry is usually examined in a number of ways we typically apply x a number of tests to an entry x x look at the original source x convert ansi tri graphs to ascii x c pre process the source ignoring include lines x c pre process the source ignoring define and include lines x run it through a c beautifier x examine the algorithm x lint it x compile it x execute it x x you should consider how your entry looks in each of the above tests x you should ask yourself if your entry remains obscure after it has been x cleaned up by the c pre processor and a c beautifier x x your entry need not do well under all or in most tests in certain x cases a test is not important entries that compete for the x strangest most creative source layout need not do as well as x others in terms of their algorithm on the other hand given x two such entries we are more inclined to pick the entry that x does something interesting when you run it x x we try to avoid limiting creativity in our rules as such we leave x the contest open for creative rule interpretation as in real life x programming interpreting a requirements document or a customer request x is important for this reason we often award worst abuse of the x rules to an entry that illustrates this point in an ironic way x x if you do plan to abuse the rules we suggest that you let us know x in the remarks section please note that an invitation to abuse x is not an invitation to break we are strict when it comes to the x byte size limit also abusing the entry format tends to x annoy more than amuse x x we do realize that there are holes in the rules and invite entries x to attempt to exploit them we will award worst abuse of the rules x and then plug the hole next year even so we will attempt to use x the smallest plug needed if not smaller x x check out your program and be sure that it works we sometimes make x the effort to debug an entry that has a slight problem particularly x in or near the final round on the other hand we have seen some x of the best entries fall down because they didn t work x x we tend to look down on a prime number printer that claims that x is a prime number if you do have a bug you are better off x documenting it noting this entry sometimes prints the th power x of a prime by mistake would save the above entry and sometimes x a strange bug feature can even help the entry of course a correctly x working entry is best x x xour likes and dislikes x x doing masses of defines to obscure the source has become old we x tend to see thru masses of defines due to our pre processor tests x that we apply simply abusing defines or dfoo bar won t go as far x as a program that is more well rounded in confusion x x many ansi c compilers dislike the following code and so do we x x define d define x d foo don t expect this to turn into define foo x x int i x j don t use such implicit type declaration x int k x x we suggest that you compile your entry with an ansi c compiler if you x must use non ansi c such as k r c you must avoid areas that result in x compile link errors for ansi c compilers x x unfortunately some ansi c compilers require array indexes to be of x integral type thus the following classical obfuscation hacks should x not be used in this rule may be relaxed in future contests x x int i x char c x i c use c i instead x i string use string i instead x x if your entry uses functions that have a variable number of x arguments be careful systems implement va list as a wide variety x of ways because of this a number of operations using va list are x not portable and must not be used x x assigning a non va list variable to from a va list variable x casting a non va list variable into from a va list variable x passing a va list variable to a function expecting a non va list arg x passing a non va list variable to a function expecting a va list arg x performing arithmetic on va list variables x using va list as a structure or union x x in particular do not treat va list variables as if they were a char s x x avoid using varargs h use stdarg h instead x x if you use c preprocessor directives define if ifdef x the leading must be the first character on a line while some x c preprocessors allow whitespace the leading many do not x x because the exit function returns void on some systems entries x must not assume that it returns an int x x small programs are best when they are short obscure and concise x while such programs are not as complex as other winners they do x serve a useful purpose they are often the only program that people x attempt to completely understand for this reason we look for x programs that are compact and are instructional x x one line programs should be short one line programs say around x bytes long getting close to bytes is a bit too long in our opinion x x we tend to dislike programs that x x are very hardware specific x are very os or un x version specific x index strchr differences are ok but socket streams specific x code is likely not to be x dump core or have compiler warnings x it is ok only if you warn us in the remark header item x won t compile under both bsd or sys v un x x abusing the build file to get around the size limit x obfuscate by excessive use of ansi tri graphs x are longer than they need to be x are similar to previous winners x are identical to previous losers x x unless you are cramped for space or unless you are entering the x best one liner category we suggest that you format your program x in a more creative way than simply forming excessively long lines x x the build file should not be used to try and get around the size x limit it is one thing to make use of a several d s to help out x but it is quite another to use bytes of d s in order to x try and squeeze the source under the size limit you should feel x free to make use of the build file space but you are better off x if you show some amount of restraint x x we allowed whitespace and in certain cases or do not impact x your program size up to a certain point because we want to get x away from source that is simply a compact blob of characters x x given two versions of the same program one that is a compact blob x of code and the other that is formatted more like a typical c x program we tend to favor the second version of course a third x version of the same program that is formatted in an interesting x and or obfuscated way would definitely win over the first two x x we suggest that you avoid trying for the smallest self replicating x program we are amazed at the many different sizes that claim x to be the smallest there is nothing wrong with self replicating x programs in fact a number of winners have been self replicating x you might want to avoid the claim of smallest lest we or others x know of a smaller one x x x client entries should be as portable as possible entries that x adapt to a wide collection of environments will be favored don t x depend on a particular type of display for example don t depend x on color or a given size don t require backing store x x x client entries should avoid using x related libraries and x software that is not in wide spread use we ask that such x client x entries restrict themselves to only the low level xlib and the x athena widget set libx a libxaw a libxmu a and libxt a x don t use m tif xv ew or openl ok toolkits since not everyone x has them avoid depending on a particular window manager not x everyone has x r and some people are stuck back in x r or x earlier so try to target x r without requiring x r better x yet try to make your entry run on all version x window systems x x x client entries should not to depend on particular items on x xdefaults if you must do so be sure to note the required lines x in the remark section x x we like programs that x x are as concise and small as they need to be x do something at least quasi interesting x pass lint without complaint not a requirement but it is nice x are portable x are unique or novel in their obfuscation style x make use of a number of different types of obfuscation x make us laugh and or throw up x x some types of programs can t excel in some areas of course your x program doesn t have to excel in all areas but doing well in several x areas really does help x x we freely admit that interesting creative or humorous comments in x the remark section helps your chance of winning if you had to x read of many twisted entries you too would enjoy a good laugh or two x we think the readers of the contest winners do as well x x be creative x x xentry format x x in order to help us process the many entries we must request your x assistance by formatting your entries in a certain way this format x in addition allows us to quickly separate information about the x author from the program itself see judging process x x we have provided the program mkentry as an example of how to x format entries you should be aware of the following warning that x is found in mkentry c x x this program attempts to implement the ioccc rules every x attempt has been made to make sure that this program produces x an entry that conforms to the contest rules in all cases x where this program differs from the contest rules the x contest rules will be used be sure to check with the x contest rules before submitting an entry x x you are not required to use mkentry it is convenient however x as it attempts to uuencode the needed files and attempt to check x the entry against the size rules x x if you have any suggestions comments fixes or complaints about x the mkentry c program please send email to the judges see below x x the following is a sample entry x x entry xrule xfix n xtitle chonglab xentry xdate mon mar xhost un x v pdp x bsd pdp x remark x this is a non obfuscated obfuscated c program x x it is likely not to win a prize but what do you expect from x a short example x author xname landon curt noll xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall x po box x san francisco california x x usa xemail chongo toad com xanon n x author xname larry bassel xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall x po box x san francisco california x x usa xemail hoptoad sun lab x lab sun com xanon n x info x end x x typically the build file should assume that the source is prog c x and will compile into prog if an entry wins we will rename x its source and binary to avoid filename collision by tradition x we use the name of the entry s title followed by an optional x digit in case of name conflicts x x if the above entry somehow won the least likely to win award x we would use chonglab c and chonglab x x if your entry depends on or requires that your build source x and or binary files be a particular name please say so in the x remark section if this case applies it would be be helpful x if you did one of the following x x tell us how to change the filename s in your entry x x have the build file make copies of the files for example x x cc prog c o special name need special binary x x or rm f special src c need special source x cp prog c special src c x cc special src c o special name x x or rm f special build need special build x tail build special build x sh special build x x assume that we will use the entry title send us a version of x your build program files that uses the name convention you x should uuencode these files in data sections x x if your entry needs to modify its source info or binary files x please say so in the remark section you should try to avoid x touching your original build source and binary files you should x arrange to make copies of the files you intend to modify this x will allow people to re generate your entry from scratch x x remember that your entry may be built without a build file we x typically incorporate the build lines into a makefile if the x build file must exist say so in the remark section x x if your entry needs special info files you should uuencode them x into info sections in the case of multiple info files x use multiple info sections if no info files are needed x then skip the info section x x info files are intended to be input or detailed information that x does not fit well into the remark section for example an x entry that implements a compiler might want to provide some sample x programs for the user to compile an entry might want to include a x lengthy design document that might not be appropriate for a x hints file x x info files should be used only to supplement your entry for x example info files may provide sample input or detailed x information about your entry because they are supplemental x the entry should not require them exist x x in some cases your info files might be renamed to avoid name x conflicts if info files should not be renamed for some reason x say so in the remark section x x info files must uudecode into the current directory if they x absolutely must be renamed or moved into a sub directory say x so in the remark section x x when submitting multiple entries be sure that each entry has x a unique entry number from to your first entry should x have entry number x x with the exception of the header all text outside of the entry x format may be ignored that is don t place text outside of the x entry and expect the judges to see it our decoding tools aren t x ai progs if you need tell the the something put it in the x remark section or send a email to the judges at x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for x judges toad com submitting entries x x the date should be given with respect to utc some systems refer x to this as gmt or gmt the format of the date should be that as x returned by asctime in the c locale an example of such a string is x x thr apr x x this format is similar to the output of the date command the x string does not include the timezone name before the year on many x systems one of the following command will produce a similar string x x date u a h d t y x date u sed e s x sh c tz utc date sed e s x sh c tz gmt date sed e s x sh c tz gmt date sed e s x x you are allowed to update fix revise your entry to do so set x the fix line in the entry section to y instead of n x be sure that the resubmittion uses the same title and entry number x as well as these are used to determine which entry is to be x replaced x x xjudging process x x entries are judged by larry bassel and landon curt noll x x entries are unpacked into individual directories the email message x is unpacked into individual files each containing x x entry section x all author sections x all info sections x build section x program section x any other text including the email message headers x x prior to judging the any other text file is scanned to be sure x it does not contain useful information or in case the entry was x malformed and did not unpack correctly information from the x author sections are not read until the judging process is x complete and then only from entries that have won an award x x the above process helps keep us biased for against any one particular x individual we are usually kept in the dark as much as you are x until the final awards are given we like the surprise of finding x out in the end who won and where they were from x x we attempt to keep all entries anonymous unless they win an award x because the main prize of winning is being announced we make all x attempts to send non winners into oblivion we remove all non winning x files and shred all related paper by tradition we do not even x reveal the number of entries that we received for the curious x we do indicate the volume of paper consumed when presenting the ioccc x winners at talks x x after the usenix announcement we attempt to send email to the x authors of the winning entries one reason we do this is to give x the authors a chance to comment on the way we have presented their x entry they are given the chance to correct mistakes typos we x often accept their suggestions comments about our remarks as well x this is done prior to posting the winners to the wide world x x judging consists of a number of elimination rounds during a round x the collection of entries are divided into two roughly equal piles x the pile that advances on to the next round and the pile that does x not we also re examine the entries that were eliminated in the x previous round thus an entry gets at least two readings x x a reading consists of a number of actions x x reading the entry section x reading the uudecoded build section x reading the uudecoded program section x reading the uudecoded info section s if any x passing the source thru the c pre processor x shipping over any include files x performing a number of c beautify cleanup edits on the source x passing the beautified source thru the c pre processor x shipping over any include files x x in later rounds other actions are performed x x linting the source x compiling building the source x running the program x performing misc tests on the source and binary x x until we reduce the stack of entries down to about entries entries x are judged on an individual basis an entry is set aside because it x does not in our opinion meet the standard established by the round x when the number of entries thins to about entries we begin to form x award categories entries begin to compete with each other for awards x an entry often will compete in several categories x x the actual award category list will vary depending on the types of entries x we receive a typical category list might be x x best small one line program x best small program x strangest most creative source layout x most useful obfuscated program x best game that is obfuscated x most creatively obfuscated program x most deceptive c code x best x client see our likes and dislikes x best abuse of ansi c x worst abuse of the rules x anything else so strange that it deserves an award x x we do not limit ourselves to this list for example a few entries are so x good bad that they are declared winners at the start of the final round x we will invent awards categories for them if necessary x x in the final round process we perform the difficult tasks of x reducing the remaining entries typically about down to or x winners often we are confident that the entries that make it into x the final round are definitely better than the ones that do not x make it the selection of the winners out of the final round is x less clear cut x x sometimes a final round entry good enough to win but is beat out x by a similar but slightly better entry for this reason it is x sometimes worthwhile to re enter an improved version of an entry x that failed to win in a previous year this assumes of course x that the entry is worth improving in the first place x x more often that not we select a small entry usually one line a x strange creative layout entry and an entry that abuses the contest x rules in some way x x in the end we traditionally pick one entry as best sometimes such x an entry simply far exceeds any of the other entry more often the x best is picked because it does well in a number of categories x x xannouncement of winners x x the first announcement occurs at a summer usenix conference by tradition x this is done during the latter part of the uunet ioccc bof just prior to x the berkeley bsd and bsdi bof x x winning entries will be posted in late june to the following groups x x comp lang c comp unix wizards alt sources x x in addition pointers to these postings are posted to the following x x comp sources d alt sources d misc misc x comp sources misc comp windows x x x winning entries will be deposited into the uunet archives see x below for details x x often winning entries are published in selected magazines winners x have appeared in books the new hackers dictionary and on t shirts x x last but not least winners receive international fame and flames x x xfor more information x x you may contact the judges by sending email to the following address x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for x judges toad com submitting entries x x questions and comments about the contest are welcome x x the rules and the guidelines may and often do change from year to x year you should be sure you have the current rules and guidelines x prior to submitting entries to obtain them send email to the address x above and use the subject send rules x x one may obtain winners of previous contests to date via ftp from x x host ftp uu net x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x as a last resort previous winners may be obtained by sending email x to the above address please use the subject send year winners x where year is a single digit year a year range or all x x xchongo landon curt noll cc chongo toad com xlarry bassel lab sun com shar eof chmod guidelines echo restore of guidelines failed set wc c guidelines wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi echo end of part continue with part exit sunnyvale residents vote landon noll for sunnyvale city council seat
comp.windows.x	reposting th international obfuscated c code contest rules of we have received a number of requests for a reposting of the international obfuscated c code contest rules and guidelines also some people requested that these rules be posted to a wider set of groups sorry for the cross posting some technical clarifications were made to the rules and guidelines see the diff marks at the right hand edge the rules and guidelines for this year remain the same so people who have already or are in the process of submitting entries for the ioccc need not worry about these changes chongo landon curt noll cc chongo toad com larry bassel lab sun com bin sh this is part of a multipart archive mkentry c echo x extracting mkentry c text sed s x shar eof mkentry c x mkentry c x x copyright c landon curt noll larry bassel x all rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use x is granted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its x entirety and remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior x permission in writing from both landon curt noll and larry bassel x x x mkentry make an international obfuscated c code contest entry x x usage x mkentry r remarks b build p prog c o ioccc entry x x r remarks file with remarks about the entry x b build file containing how prog c should be built x p prog c the obfuscated program source file x o ioccc entry ioccc entry output file x x compile by x cc mkentry c o mkentry x x x placed in the public domain by landon curt noll x x this software is provided as is and without any express or implied x warranties including without limitation the implied warranties of x merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose x x x warning x x this program attempts to implement the ioccc rules every attempt x has been made to make sure that this program produces an entry that x conforms to the contest rules in all cases where this program x differs from the contest rules the contest rules will be used be x sure to check with the contest rules before submitting an entry x x for more information x x you may contact the judges by sending email to the following address x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for x judges toad com submitting entries x x questions and comments about the contest are welcome x x the rules and the guidelines may and often do change from year to x year you should be sure you have the current rules and guidelines x prior to submitting entries to obtain them send email to the address x above and use the subject send rules x x one may obtain winners of previous contests to date via ftp from x x host ftp uu net x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x as a last resort previous winners may be obtained by sending email x to the above address please use the subject send year winners x where year is a single digit year a year range or all x x because contest rules change from year to year one should only use this x program for the year that it was intended be sure that the rule year x define below matches this current year x x x include stdio h x include ctype h x include time h x include sys types h x include sys stat h x x logic x ifndef true x define true x endif true x ifndef false x define false x endif false x define eof ok true x define eof not ok false x x global limits x define rule year note should match the current year x define start date mar utc first confirmation received x define max col max column a line should hit x define max build size max how to build size x define max program size max program source size x define max program size max program source size not counting x whitespace and not followed by x whitespace or eof x define max title len max chars in the title x define max entry len max length in the entry input line x define max entry max number of entries per person per year x define max file len max filename length for a info file x x where to send entries x define entry addr apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad obfuscate x define entry addr obfuscate toad com x x uuencode process assumes ascii x define uuencode c encode str int c xff x define uuencode len max uuencode chunk size x define uuinfo mode mode of an info file s uuencode file x define uubuild mode mode of the build file s uuencode file x define uubuild name build name for the build file s uuencode file x define uuprog mode mode of the program s uuencode file x define uuprog name prog c name for the program s uuencode file x x encode str char val is the uuencoded character of val xchar encode str abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz x x global declarations xchar program our name xlong start time the startup time x x forward declarations xvoid parse args xvoid usage xfile open remark xfile open build xfile open program xfile open output xvoid output entry xvoid output remark xvoid output author xvoid output info xvoid output build xvoid output program xvoid output end xint get line xvoid output till dot xint col len xvoid check io xvoid uuencode x xmain argc argv x int argc arg count x char argv the args x x file remark null open remarks stream x file build null open build file stream x file prog null open program stream x file output null open output stream x char rname null file with remarks about the entry x char bname null file containing how prog c should be built x char pname null the obfuscated program source file x char oname null ioccc entry output file x struct tm tm startup time structure x x x check on the year x x start time time long x tm gmtime start time x if tm tm year rule year x fprintf stderr x s warning this program applies to d which may differ from d n n x argv rule year tm tm year x x x x parse the command line args x x parse args argc argv rname bname pname oname x x x open check the input and output files x x we open and truncate the output file first in case it is the same x as one of the input files x x output open output oname x remark open remark rname x build open build bname x prog open program pname x if output null remark null build null prog null x exit x x x x output each section x x output entry output oname x output remark output oname remark rname x output author output oname x output info output oname x output build output oname build bname x output program output oname prog pname x output end output oname x x x flush the output x x if fflush output eof x fprintf stderr s flush error in s program oname x perror x exit x x x x final words x x printf nyour entry can be found in s you should check this file n x oname x printf correct any problems and verify that the uudecode utility will n x printf correctly decode your build file and program n n x printf this program has been provided as a guide for submitters in n x printf cases where it conflicts with the rules the rules shall apply n x printf it is your responsibility to ensure that your entry conforms to n x printf the current rules n n x printf email your entries to n x printf t s n entry addr x printf t s n n entry addr x printf please use the following subject when you email your entry n x printf tioccc entry n n x all done x exit x x x x parse args parse the command line args x x given the command line args this function parses them and sets the x required name flags this function will return only if the command x line syntax is correct x xvoid xparse args argc argv rname bname pname oname x int argc arg count x char argv the args x char rname file with remarks about the entry x char bname file containing how prog c should be built x char pname the obfuscated program source file x char oname ioccc entry output file x x char optarg flag option operand x int flagname the name of the flag x int i x x x not everyone has getopt so we must parse args by hand x x program argv x for i i argc i x x determine the flagname x if argv i x usage x notreached x x flagname int argv i x x determine the flag s operand x if flagname argv i x optarg argv i x else x if i argc x usage x notreached x else x optarg argv i x x x x save the flag s operand in the correct global variable x switch flagname x case r x rname optarg x break x case b x bname optarg x break x case p x pname optarg x break x case o x oname optarg x break x default x usage x notreached x x x x x verify that we have all of the required flags x x if rname null bname null pname null oname null x usage x notreached x x return x x x x usage print a usage message and exit x x this function does not return x xvoid xusage exitval x int exitval exit with this value x x fprintf stderr x usage s r remarks b build p prog c o ioccc entry n n program x fprintf stderr t r remarks tfile with remarks about the entry n x fprintf stderr t b build tfile containing how prog c should be built n x fprintf stderr t p prog c tthe obfuscated program source file n x fprintf stderr t o ioccc entry tioccc entry output file n x exit exitval x x x x open remark open check the remark file x x the remark file should be indented by spaces and should not extend x beyond column max col these are not requirements so we only warn x x this function returns null on i o or format error x xfile xopen remark filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x char buf bufsiz input buffer x int toolong number of lines that are too long x int non indent number of lines not indented by spaces x x x open the remark input file x x stream fopen filename r x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open remark file s x program filename x perror x return null x x x x look at each line x x while fgets buf bufsiz stream null x x count lines that do not start with spaces x if buf n strncmp buf x non indent x x x count long lines x if col len buf max col x found a line that is too long x toolong x x x x watch for i o errors x check io stream filename eof ok x x note long lines if needed x if toolong x fprintf stderr x s warning d line s from s extend beyond the th column n x program toolong filename x fprintf stderr x s this is ok but it would be nice to avoid n n x program x x x note non indented lines if needed x if non indent x fprintf stderr x s warning d line s from s are not indented by spaces n x program non indent filename x fprintf stderr x s this is ok but it would be nice to avoid n n x program x x x return the open file x rewind stream x return stream x x x x open build open check the build file x x the how to build file must not be longer than max build size bytes x x this function returns null on i o or size error x xfile xopen build filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x struct stat statbuf the status of the open file x x x open the how to build input file x x stream fopen filename r x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open how to build file s x program filename x perror x return null x x x x determine the size of the file x x if fstat fileno stream statbuf x fprintf stderr s cannot stat how to build file s x program filename x perror x return null x x if statbuf st size max build size x fprintf stderr x s fatal the how to build file s is d bytes long n x program filename statbuf st size x fprintf stderr x s it may not be longer than d bytes n x program max build size x return null x x x return the open file x return stream x x x x open program open check the program source file x x the program source file must be bytes the number of x non whitespace and chars not followed by whitespace must x be bytes x x this function returns null on i o or size error x xfile xopen program filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x struct stat statbuf the status of the open file x int count special count size x int c the character read x x x open the program source input file x x stream fopen filename r x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open program source file s x program filename x perror x exit x x x x determine the size of the file x x if fstat fileno stream statbuf x fprintf stderr s cannot stat program source file s x program filename x perror x return null x x if statbuf st size max program size x fprintf stderr x s fatal the program source file s is d bytes long n x program filename statbuf st size x fprintf stderr x s it may not be longer than d bytes n x program max program size x return null x x x x count the non whitespace non followed by whitespace chars x x count x c x while c fgetc stream eof x look at non whitespace x if isascii c isspace c x switch c x case count if not followed by eof or whitespace x case x case x peek at next char x c fgetc stream x if c eof isascii c isspace c x not followed by whitespace or eof count it x ungetc c stream x count x x break x default x count x break x x x x x watch for i o errors x check io stream filename eof ok x x look at the special size x if count max program size x fprintf stderr x s fatal the number of bytes that are non whitespace and n x program x fprintf stderr x s that are not followed by whitespace n x program x fprintf stderr x s or eof must be d bytes n x program max program size x fprintf stderr x s in s d bytes were found n x program filename count x return null x x x return the open file x rewind stream x return stream x x x x open output open check the entry output file x x this function returns null on open error x xfile xopen output filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x x x open the ioccc entry output file x x stream fopen filename w x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open ioccc entry file for output s x program filename x perror x exit x x x return the open file x return stream x x x x output entry output the entry section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the entry section x xvoid xoutput entry output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x char title max title len the entry s title x char buf max col i o buffer x int entry entry number x int ret fields processed by fscanf x int ok line the line is not ok x char skip input to skip x file date pipe pipe to a date command x time t epoch sec seconds since the epoch x char p x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output entry n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the rule year x x fprintf output rule t d n rule year x check io output oname eof not ok x x determine if this is a fix x printf is this a fix update or resubmittion to a x printf previous entry enter y or n x while get line buf buf y buf n x printf nplease answer y or n x x if buf y x fprintf output fix ty n x check io output oname eof not ok x printf nbe sure that the title and entry number that you give n x printf are the same of as the entry you are replacing n x else x fprintf output fix tn n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x x write the title x x printf nyour title must match expression be a a za z character n x printf followed by to d more a za z characters n n x max title len x printf it is suggested but not required that the title should n x printf incorporate your username in the n x printf case of multiple authors consider using parts of the usernames n x printf of the authors n n x printf enter your title x do x prompt and read a line x if ok line get line title max title len max col x printf ntitle is too long please re enter x continue x x x verify the pattern not everyone has regexp so do it by hand x if isascii int title x isalnum int title title title x printf ninvalid first character in the title n n x printf enter your title x ok line x else x for p title p p n p x if isascii int p x isalnum int p x p p p p x printf ninvalid character in the title n n x printf enter your title x ok line x x x x while ok line x fprintf output title t s title x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the entry number x x printf neach person may submit up to d entries per year n n x max entry x printf enter an entry number from to d inclusive max entry x do x get a valid input line x fflush stdout x ret fscanf stdin d n entry x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x skip over input until newline is found x do x skip fgetc stdin x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x if skip n x bad text in input invalidate entry number x entry x x while skip n x x check if we have a number and if it is in range x if ret entry entry max entry x printf x nthe entry number must be between and d inclusive n n x max entry x printf enter the entry number x x while ret entry entry max entry x fprintf output entry t d n entry x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the submission date x x returns a newline x epoch sec time null x fprintf output date t s asctime gmtime epoch sec x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the os machine host information x x printf x nenter the machine s and os s under which your entry was tested n x output till dot output oname host x x x x output remark output the remark section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the entry section x xvoid xoutput remark output oname remark rname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x file remark stream to the file containing remark text x char rname name of the remark file x x char buf bufsiz input output buffer x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output remark n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x copy the remark file to the section x x while fgets buf bufsiz remark null x fputs buf output x check io output oname eof not ok x x check io remark rname eof ok x x be sure that the remark section ends with a newline x if buf strlen buf n x fputc n output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x x x output author output the author section x x read the needed information from stdin and write the author section x if multiple authors exist multiple author sections will be written x xvoid xoutput author output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x char buf max col i o buffer x int more auths true more authors to note x int auth cnt number of authors processed x x x prompt the user for the author section x x printf nenter information about each author if your entry is after n x printf s and before the contest deadline the judges n start date x printf will attempt to email back a confirmation to the first author n x x x place author information for each author in an individual section x x do x x write the start of the section x fprintf output author n x check io output oname eof not ok x x write the author x printf nauthor d name auth cnt x while get line buf max col max col x printf nname too long please re enter x x fprintf output name t s buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x write the organization x printf nenter the school company organization of author d n x auth cnt x printf nauthor d org auth cnt x while get line buf max col max col x printf nline too long please re enter x x fprintf output org t s buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x write the address x printf x nenter the postal address for author d be sure to include n x auth cnt x printf your country and do not include your name n x output till dot output oname addr x x write the email address x printf x nenter the email address for author d use an address from n x auth cnt x printf x a registered domain or well known site if you give several n x printf forms list them one per line n x output till dot output oname email x x write the anonymous status x printf nshould author d remain anonymous enter y or n x auth cnt x while get line buf buf y buf n x printf nplease answer y or n x x fprintf output anon t s buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x determine if there is another author x printf nis there another author enter y or n x while get line buf buf y buf n x printf nplease answer y or n x x if buf y x more auths true x else x more auths false x x while more auths true x return x x x x output info output the info section s x x read the needed information from stdin and write the info section x if multiple info files exist multiple info sections will be written x xvoid xoutput info output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x char infoname max file len filename buffer x char yorn y or n answer x char uuname name to uuencode as x file infile info file stream x x x prompt the user for info information x x printf ninfo files should be used only to supplement your entry n x printf for example info files may provide sample input or detailed n x printf information about your entry because they are supplemental n x printf the entry should not require them to exist n n x x x while there is another info file to save uuencode it x x printf do you have a info file to include enter y or n x while get line yorn yorn y yorn n x printf nplease answer y or n x x while yorn y x x read the filename x printf nenter the info filename x while get line infoname max file len x printf ninfo filename too long please re enter x x x compute the basename of the info filename x remove the trailing newline x uuname infoname strlen infoname x uuname x avoid rindex shrrchr compat issues do it by hand x for uuname uuname infoname uuname x if uuname x uuname x break x x x x attempt to open the info file x infile fopen infoname r x if infile null x fprintf stderr n s cannot open info file s x program infoname x perror x continue x x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output info n x check io output oname eof not ok x x uuencode the info file x uuencode output oname infile infoname uuinfo mode uuname x x printf ndo you have another info file to include enter y or n x while get line yorn yorn y yorn n x printf nplease answer y or n x x x return x x x x output build output the build section x x read the needed information from stdin and write the build section x xvoid xoutput build output oname build bname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x file build open build file stream x char bname name of the build file x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output build n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x uuencode the program file x x uuencode output oname build bname uubuild mode uubuild name x return x x x x output program output the program section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the program section x xvoid xoutput program output oname prog pname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x file prog open program stream x char pname name of program file x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output program n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x uuencode the program file x x uuencode output oname prog pname uuprog mode uuprog name x return x x x x output end output the end section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the end section x xvoid xoutput end output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x x write the final section terminator x x fprintf output end n x check io output oname eof not ok x return x x x x get line get an answer from stdin x x this function will flush stdout in case a prompt is pending and x read in the answer x x this function returns if the line is too long of the length of the x line including the newline of the line was ok this function does x not return if error or eof x xint xget line buf siz maxcol x char buf input buffer x int siz length of input including the newline x int maxcol max col allowed disable check x x int length the length of the input line x x flush terminal output x fflush stdout x x read the line x if fgets buf siz stdin null x report the problem x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x x x look for the newline x length strlen buf x if buf length n x int eatchar the char being eaten x x no newline found line must be too long eat the rest of the line x do x eatchar fgetc stdin x while eatchar eof eatchar n x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x x report the situation x return x x x watch for long lines if needed x if maxcol length maxcol col len buf maxcol x report the situation x return x x x return length x return length x x x x output till dot output a set of lines until by itself is read x x this routine will read a set of lines until but not including x a single line with is read the format of the output is x x leader tfirst line x tnext line x tnext line x x x this routine will not return if i o error or eof x xvoid xoutput till dot output oname leader x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x char leader the lead text for the first line x x char buf bufsiz input buffer x int count lines read x int done false true finished reading input x x instruct the user on how to input x printf nto end input enter a line with a single period n x x read lines until or eof x count x while done x issue the prompt x printf s t count leader x fflush stdout x x get the line x if get line buf bufsiz max col x printf nline too long please re enter n t x continue x x x note if was read x if strcmp buf n x done true x x x write line if we read something x if done x fprintf output s t s count leader buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x x x if no lines read at least output something x if count x fprintf output s t n leader x check io output oname eof not ok x x return x x x x col len determine the highest that a string would reach x x given a string this routine returns that a string would reach x if the string were printed at column tab stops are assumed x to start at x xint xcol len string x char string the string to examine x x int col current column x char p current char x x scan the string x for col p string p p n p x note the column shift x col p t col col x x if p n x col x x x return the highest column x return col x x x x check io check for eof or i o error on a stream x x does not return if eof or i o error x xvoid xcheck io stream name eof ok x file stream the stream to check x char name the name of this stream x int eof ok eof ok or eof not ok x x test for i o error x if ferror stream x fprintf stderr s error on s program name x perror x exit x x test for eof x else if eof ok eof not ok feof stream x fprintf stderr s eof on s n program name x exit x x return x x x x uuencode uuencode a file x x perform the uuencoding process identical to the process performed x by the uuencode utility x x this routine implements the algorithm described in the uuencode x bsd reno man page x xvoid xuuencode output oname infile iname umode uname x file output output file stream x char oname output filename x file infile input file stream x char iname input filename x int umode the mode to put on the uuencode file x char uname name to put on the uuencode file x x char buf uuencode len the uuencode buffer x int read len actual number of chars read x int val bit chunk from buf x char filler filler uuencode pad text x char p x x x output the initial uuencode header x x fprintf output begin o s n umode uname x check io output oname eof not ok x x x clear out the input buffer x x for p buf p buf sizeof buf sizeof buf p x p x x x x we will process uuencode len chars at a time forming x a single output line each time x x while read len fread buf sizeof buf uuencode len infile x x x the first character is the length character x x fputc uuencode read len output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x we will convert bits at a time thus we will convert x sets of bits into sets of uuencoded bits x x for p buf read len read len p x x bits to x val p x f x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x bits to x val p x p x f x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x bits to x val p x c p x x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x bits to x val p x f x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x end of uuencode len line x fputc n output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x clear out the input buffer don t depend on bzero or memset x x for p buf p buf sizeof buf sizeof buf p x p x x x x check the last read on the input file x check io infile iname eof ok x x write end of uuencode file x fprintf output c nend n uuencode filler x check io output oname eof not ok x shar eof chmod mkentry c echo restore of mkentry c failed set wc c mkentry c wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi obfuscate info echo x extracting obfuscate info text sed s x shar eof obfuscate info x obfuscated contest information x xcopyright c landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use is xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission in writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel x xthe international obfuscated c code contest ioccc in the sprit of xco operation is willing mention other programming contents as space xpermits x xhow to have your contest included in this file x x if you wish the ioccc judges to include your contest in this file x send a request to x x judges toad com x x we request that contest descriptions be limited to lines and to x not exceed bytes we typically request that your contest x include a current description of the ioccc x x in order to be included in this file for given year we must x receive a current description no earlier than jan utc and x no later than feb utc agreement to publish your x contest must also be obtained prior to feb annual contests x that fail to submit a new entry will be dropped from this file x xofficial disclaimer pardon the officialese x x the contents noted below other than the ioccc are not affiliated x with the ioccc nor are they endorsed by the ioccc we reserve the x right to refuse to print information about a given contest x x the information below was provided by the particular contest x organizer s and printed by permission please contact the x contest organizer s directly regarding their contents x xwith that official notice given we present for your enjoyment the following xinformation about contents x x x x th international obfuscated c contest x x the original obfuscated contest x x obfuscate tr v cated cating cates a to render obscure x b to darken to confuse their emotions obfuscated x their judgment llat obfuscare to darken ob intensive x lat fuscare to darken fuscus dark obfuscation n x obfuscatory adj x x goals of the contest x x to write the most obscure obfuscated c program under the rules below x to show the importance of programming style in an ironic way x to stress c compilers with unusual code x to illustrate some of the subtleties of the c language x to provide a safe forum for poor c code x x the ioccc is the grandfather of usenet programming contests since x this contest demonstrated that a program that simply works x correctly is not sufficient the ioccc has also done much to add x the arcane word obfuscated back into the english language x see the new hacker s dictionary by eric raymond x x you are strongly encouraged to read the new contest rules before x sending any entries the rules and sometimes the contest email x address itself change over time a valid entry one year may x be rejected in a later year due to changes in the rules the typical x start date for contests is in early march contest rules are normally not x finalized and posted until the beginning of the contest the typical x closing date for contests are in early may x x the rules and the guidelines may and often do change from year to x year you should be sure you have the current rules and guidelines x prior to submitting entries to obtain them send email to the address x above and use the subject send rules x x one may obtain winners of previous contests to date via ftp from x x host ftp uu net x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x as a last resort previous winners may be obtained by sending email x to the above address please use the subject send year winners x where year is a single digit year a year range or all x x x x th international obfuscated perl contest x by landon noll larry wall x x this content is being planned someday when landon larry are not too x busy they will actually get around to posting the first set of rules x x landon says yes i know that i said we would have a contest in x but other existing projects got in the way hopefully x something will be developed after nov x x x x nd international obfuscated postscript contest x jonathan monsarrat jgm cs brown edu x alena lacova alena nikhef nl x x a contest of programming skills and knowledge exclusively for the x postscript programming language its purpose x x to spread knowledge of postscript and its details x to applaud those with the best tricks x to prove that humans can beat those damnable machine generators at x their own game by writing the most obscure and mysterious postscript x programs ever x x winners will receive the fame and attention that goes with having their x program entry posted as a winner to programmers world wide x x the contest rules and results are available by ftp as x wilma cs brown edu pub postscript obfuscated shar or individually x in the obfuscated directory the judges will post the rules x in november to comp lang postscript on usenet and other places x send questions to jgm cs brown edu x x categories include best obfuscated postscript best artwork x most compact best interactive program most useful and x anything so unusual and creative that it deserves an award x x the judges will choose the winners of each category x x alena lacova is a system administrator at nikhef institute for high x energy and nuclear physics in the netherlands she is the author of x the postscript chaos programs which draw julia sets mandelbrot sets x and other kinds of fractal functions x x jonathan monsarrat is a graduate student from mit and brown university x in the u s a he is the faq maintainer for the usenet newsgroup x comp lang postscript and the author of the postscript zone and lametex x x shar eof chmod obfuscate info echo restore of obfuscate info failed set wc c obfuscate info wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi exit sunnyvale residents vote landon noll for sunnyvale city council seat
comp.windows.x	re problem with xvertext package in article mar sierra com dkarr sierra com david karr writes i might have a need in the future to display rotated text i noticed the xvertext package on the net it looks very good but it has one slight problem the api to it assumes you have a font name not an already loaded font it shouldn t be too difficult to split up the function into two interface routines one with a font name and one with an xfontstruct but i thought i would ask the author alan richardson mppa uk ac sussex syma first in case he was planning this already unfortunately his email address bounced does alan r or the current maintainer of xvertext see this the e mail address you mentioned above is for use with the u k as you know the brits do everything backwards so the real address from the states is mppa syma sussex ac uk give it a try harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown or uu psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com or ftms brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
comp.windows.x	re gadgets vs widgets motif managers take a very simplistic approach to the way they handle events for gadgets they track for all events such as motion notify wether or not the gadget expresses interest in the events as a result gadgets typically generate a great deal more network traffic those with x terminals might find a noticable network performance drop as a result really what s the point using gadgets then it is a case of memory vs network performance tradeoff gadgets save both client and server memory but memory is easily expandable while network performance is not so if i were designing motif i would at least make it possible to avoid using gadgets at present you really don t have a choice because motif forces you to use gadgets in menus and in various other places adrian nye o reilly and associates inc i ve been using the xmgraph widget that s been floating around and i noticed the performance is significantly better using gadgets perhaps even faster i had heard in an old programming course that gadgets were no longer any benefit to performance and that it s just as well to use widgets everywhere so why would pushbutton gadgets be a lot quicker than pushbuttons in the graph should i start putting gadgets back into my long pulldown menus xmgraph manages children connected by xmarc widgets in a directed network type graph with automatic layout capability bill schlumberger geco prakla internet kayser delft sgp slb com
comp.windows.x	re trouble compiling x r on sunos epstein trwacs fp trw com jeremy epstein writes dmm head cfa harvard edu david meleedy writes description of compiling problems deleted gcc fpcc struct return o bmtoa bmtoa o o funroll loops l lib xmu lxmu l lib xt l extensions lib l lib x l afs cfa syste m sun c usr head lib x x r ld undefined symbol xgetvisualinfo xfree xinternatom etc there s a bug in sunos which is alluded to in the faq although there it s talking about x r as being affected you need to force libxmu to be linked statically rather than dynamically which works around the linker error the simplest thing to do is edit each of the makefiles where there s a failure and change the line which reads xmulib l xmusrc lxmu to xmulib l xmusrc bstatic lxmu bdynamic no this is only relevant for openwindows x as shipped with sunos it is not relevant for mit r mit r should compile without problems casper
comp.windows.x	re help building x r with gcc in article apr etrog se citri edu au tim kimba catt citri edu au tim liddelow writes can people please send me any hints on building x r with gcc is there any pitfalls to be avoided any hints i would appreciate hearing other peoples stories on this i have been building x with gcc since and the only time i had trouble was when the position independant code option broke so i couldn t use gcc to build sun shared libraries the important thing to do is to follow the tips given in the gcc release gcc generates code that requires libgcc and you should take that into account when deciding which compiler to use for the libraries michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom ab stockholm
comp.windows.x	getting pseudo tty in x motif hi i am about to write an application in x motif that will require the embedding of a pseudo tty so before i re invent the wheel has anyone written gotten a motif widget that does the job otherwise i would appreciate any pointers to make such a beast my environment is x r motif and x r motif if this helps thanks in advance arthur lim email arthur mailhost scs com sg
comp.windows.x	experiences of desqview x i need to have pcs and sparcstations run the same application namely microsoft project the original system ran on the pc now it needs to be expanded to allow unix users to work with the application the current proposal is to use desqview x as a display server for the application i would like to know your experiences with using desqview x to run an application on a pc and displaying on a sparcstation i ve heard that the network traffic is slow replies only by e mail please thanks in advance o willie willie wilson analog com
comp.windows.x	re teleuse uim x and c does anyone have any good ideas on how to integrate c code elegantly with teleuse uim x interface architect generated code source would be great but any suggestions are welcome it s my understanding that the next release of uim x due out last february has full support for c i use xdesigner which does not have the interpreter or ui meta languages of these other tools but does fully support c code generation reusable templates via c classes which are generated a variety of other handy features for using c and layout functions in different ways and generates motif code including drag n drop internationalization etc fits in quite nicely with doug young s paradigm for c motif available in the us from vi corp in europe from imperial software london see faq for details bill schlumberger geco prakla kayser delft sgp slb com
comp.windows.x	re private colormaps widget creation you are right in supposing that the problem is with the xmncolormap xtncolormap for truly literate beings not being set what you want to do is start your application with your new colormap this can be a chicken and egg sort of problem however if you look at the xt faq there is an example that should show how it can be done if not let me know and maybe i can improve the example pete pete ware ware cis ohio state edu cis dept ohio state university w bolz hall neil ave h columbus oh
comp.windows.x	xtshellstrings xtstrings hello does somebody know the functions xtshellstrings and xtstrings i haven t found them in any librarys not xm xt nor x and i need them to install a tool any hints greatly appreciated please reply via e mail thanks in advance christian wilk i ve seen things you people wouldn t believe technical university of munich attack ships on fire off the shoulder of orion munich germany i watched c beams glitter in the dark near the tannhauser gate all those moments will be lost wilk informatik tu muenchen de in time like tears in rain time to die roy batty
comp.windows.x	re xtshellstrings xtstrings in article apr informatik tu muenchen de wilk informatik tu muenchen de christian wilk writes hello does somebody know the functions xtshellstrings and xtstrings i haven t found them in any librarys not xm xt nor x and i need them to install a tool any hints greatly appreciated please reply via e mail they aren t functions they are character arrays the standard strings are either defined as string constants or character pointers into xtshellstrings and xtstrings determined by xtstringdefines your libraries were compiled with this defined and your application with it undefined so simply recompile one or the other it is probably worth adding dxtstringdefines to your cflags michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom ab stockholm
comp.windows.x	xbell i have a program produces a continuous tone by calling xbell repeatedly at an interval equal to the duration of the bell if it is run more than once on a display the tones are buffered in the x server and the tone contunues after all occurrences of the program have exited is there a convenient way of preventing this e g by emptying the x server bell buffer when each program exits disclaimer please note that the above is a personal view and should not be construed as an official comment from the jet project
comp.windows.x	re honors degrees do they mean anything in article tkld apr burns cogsci ed ac uk tkld cogsci ed ac uk kevin davidson writes in my opinion a programming degree is still worth having yes but a cs degree is not a programming degree does anybody know of a computing course where programming is taught computer science is a branch of maths or the course i did was i ve also done a software engineering course much more practical and likely to be the sort of thing an employer really wants rather than what they think they want but also did not teach programming the ability to program was an entry requirement at robert gordon university programming was the main most time consuming start of the course the first two years consisted of five subjects software engineering pascal c unix computer engineering assembler computer theory lisp prolog mathematics statistics and communication skills how to pass interviews intelligence tests and group discussions e g how to survive a helicopter crash in the north sea the third year industrial placement was spent working for a computer company for a year the company could be anywhere in europe there was a special travel allowance scheme to cover the visiting costs of professors the fourth year included operating systems c modula software engineering c assembler real time laboratory c assembler and computing theory lisp there were also group projects in nd and th years where students worked in teams to select their own project or decide to work for an outside company the only disadvantage being that specifications would change suddenly in the first four years there was a weighting between courseworks and exams for most subjects however in the honours year this was reduced to a split between an individual project and final exams no coursework assessment are all computer science courses like this btw we started off with students in our first year and were left with by honours year also every course is tutored separately not easy trying to sleep when you are in student class cheers michael michael s a robb tel the problem with bolt on software engineer fax software is making sure the spider systems limited e mail bolts are the right size edinburgh eh ng michaelr spider co uk anonymous
comp.windows.x	comp windows x frequently asked questions faq archive name x faq part last modified subject where can i get an x based plotting program these usually are available from uucp sites such as uunet or other sites as marked please consult the archie server to find more recent versions gnuplot x xplot postscript and a bunch of other drivers export lcs mit edu and elsewhere contrib gnuplot tar z gl plot x output only comp sources unix volume graph yallara cs rmit oz au pub graph tar z comp sources unix volume pdraw drawplot d and d x ps scam berkeley edu src local dplot tar z scam berkeley edu src local contour tar z scam berkeley edu src local drawplot tar z uunet ftp contrib drawplot tar z xgraph plot zoom outputs ps or hpgl shambhala berkeley edu pub xgraph tar z sun ruf uni freiburg de x contrib xgraph tar z nisc jvnc net pub xgraph tar z comp sources x volume or many other sites ace gr formerly xvgr and xmgr xy plotting tools ftp ccalmr ogi edu xview version ccalmr pub acegr xvgr tar z motif version ccalmr pub acegr xmgr tar z mirrored on export in contrib acegr xgobi an interactive dynamic scatter plotting tool from bellcore lib stat cmu edu general xgobi log in as statlib with your email as the password or send email to statlib lib stat cmu edu containing the one line message send xgobi from general information from debby swayne dfs bellcore com robot a scientific xview based graph plotting and data analysis tool ftp astro psu edu pub astrod robotx tar z plotmtv a multi purpose d d plotter tanqueray berkeley edu pub plotmtv tar z thanks in part to emv ox com ed vielmetti geoff veritas com geoffrey leach paul a scowen uk spacsun rice edu black beno css gov mike black subject where can i get an x based spreadsheet a version of sc for x and which supports lotus files is available from vernam cs uwm edu in xspread tar z it also includes graphing functions information soft eng cs uwm edu the gnu package oleo is available in prep ai mit edu pub gnu oleo tar z it can generate postscript renditions of spreadsheets also several of the below are part of integrated office productivity tools which may also include word processing email conferencing image processing and drawing painting among other features vendor product contact information access technology informix wingz quality software products q calc exclaim ca unipress q calc uniplex uniplex digital decdecision digital applix aster x applix ais xess info ais com bbn software products bbn slate slate offer bbn com elsid software systems ripcam sas by the sas institute now has a spreadsheet module the x version is available on the current popular risc platforms subject where can i get x based project management software vendor product contact information productivity solutions ultra planner quality software products masterplan version sales qsp com digital tools inc autoplan nasa compass service cossack cosmic uga edu gec marconi software systems gecomo plus gec marconi software systems size plus tei inc vue mantix cascade advanced management solutions schedule publisher auburn university thanks to pete phillips pete egh qc co uk thanks to atul chhabra atul nynexst com subject where can i get an x based postscript previewer ghostscript is distributed by the free software foundation and includes a postscript interpreter and a library of graphics primitives version is now available the major site is prep ai mit edu gspreview by the computing laboratory of the university of kent at canterbury is an x user interface wcl based to the ghostscript interpreter the source is available for anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu as gspreview tar z ghostview by tim theisen tim cs wisc edu is full function user interface for ghostscript check ftp cs wisc edu or prep ai mit edu for pub ghostview tar z there are also several executables available on ftp cs wisc edu pub x ghostview exe for various architectures also scriptworks is harlequin s software package for previewing and printing postscript r descriptions of text and graphics images previewers for x are available for information call or send email to scriptworks request harlqn co uk image network s xps supports the full postscript language and renders in color grayscale or monochrome fonts displayed are anti aliased info image network digital s dxpsview runs on uws and sun s pageview runs with the x news server subject where can i get an x based gks package the latest freely available xgks can be obtained from xgks request unidata ucar edu this is a c implementation derived from the x r contrib xgks from ibm and the university of illinois the release is on unidata ucar edu as pub xgks tar z in addition grafpak gks is available from advanced technology center gksul is available from gks ulowell edu ulowell cs department it is a b implementation which includes drivers for a variety of devices it can be passed an x window id to use the package includes both c and fortran bindings from dsrand mitre org and from stew hanauma stanford edu an xgkswidget is produced by neil bowers neilb leeds dcs neilb dcs leeds ac uk the latest conforms with the new version of xgks it is available on export in contrib xgks widget tar z subject where can i get an x based pex package the first official release of pex is with x r fix brings the sample implementation server to version the final pex protocol specification is now available via anonymous ftp to export lcs mit edu in the directory pub docs pex changes made from the public review draft are listed in the file p changes in that directory the final pexlib document is on export in pub docs pexlib there is now available from the university of illinois an implementation of the pex specification called uipex it contains a near complete implementation of phigs and phigs plus the file pub uipex uipex tar z is on a cs uiuc edu the porting platform was an rt running questions and comments can to go uipex cs uiuc edu in addition the pext toolkit by rich thomson rthomson dsd es com is available on export as pext tar z it includes a pex widget making it easier to include pex in xt based programs subject where can i get an x based tex or dvi previewer the xtex previewer for tex files is available from a number of archive sites including uunet the current version is usually on ftp cs colorado edu in seetex tar z pre converted fonts are also on that machine the distribution all includes mftobdf which converts pk gf and pxl fonts to bdf format where they can then be compiled for use by your local x server the xdvi dvi previewer is fairly comprehensive and easy to use it is also available from a number of sites including uunet and export lcs mit edu current version is patchlevel subject where can i get an x based troff previewer x r has two previewers for device independent troff the supported client xditview and the contributed but well maintained xtroff an earlier version of xtroff also appeared on the r contributed source xditview is also in the r distribution in addition the xman client can be used to preview troff documents which use the man macros i e man pages if psroff is used its output can be viewed with a postscript previewer in addition xproof an x previewer for ditroff has been contributed by marvin solomon solomon cs wisc edu version is available on export in contrib xproof elan computer group ca produces eroff a modified troff implementation and elan express an x eroff previewer softquad usa only mail sq uu net or mail sq com offers softquad publishing software including a substantially rewritten troff formatter a better intermediate language with backwards compatibility and an x r r previewer this is the package adopted by at t s own mis department and used in and re sold by many parts of at t information from ian darwin softquad ian sq com image network toxroff ca offers the xroff package which includes a fine modified troff implementation and a set of x based page previewers this is the package oem ed by several hardware vendors mostly courtesy moraes cs toronto edu mark moraes subject where can i get a wysiwyg interface builder a new release of the dirt interface builder by richard hesketh works with x r and includes some support for the motif widget set from the readme this builder allows the interactive creation and rapid prototyping of x user interfaces using the x toolkit and a number of widget sets dirt generates wc widget creation resource files and this distribution also includes the widget creation library version with the exception of the demos and mri ari source code with the kind permission of its author david e smyth check dirt readme dirt a tar z and dirt ps z on export lcs mit edu the interviews c toolkit contains a wysiwig interface builder called ibuild ibuild generates code for an interviews application complete with imakefile and an x resource file documentation is pub papers ibuild ps on interviews stanford edu quest windows s objectviews c package includes an interactive building tool druid demonstrational rapid user interface development runs on sparc machines using osf motif it is intended eventually to be a full uims but apparently now has only support for creating the presentation components for which it generates c uil code info singh g kok ch ngan ty druid a system for demonstrational rapid user interface development proc acm siggraph symp on user interface software and technology uist acm ny pp the byo interface builder is implemented in tcl also in addition these commercial products unsorted are available in final or prerelease form the following the product name indicates that the product is known to allow the designer to specify for each widget whether a particular resource is hard coded or written to an application defaults file for at least one form of output some are much more than user interface tools some are full user interface management systems information on most is not up to date product name look feel code output vendor hp interface motif c xm hp visual edge architect uimx open look express open look c xol helper lib at t visual edge uimx motif c xm helper code visual edge distributors vuit motif c uil r w dec digital x designer motif c xm c uil imperial software technology ltd sales ist co uk xfacemaker xfm motif c c script c like procedural language c uil nsl requests nsl fr builder xcessory motif c xm c uil r w ics ada info ics com xbuild motif c xm c uil nixdorf xbuild nixdorf com ixbuild motif c xm c uil ixos software karl ixos uucp teleuse motif c xm c uil r w telesoft gui info telesoft com ezx motif c xm helper lib c uil ada sunrise info sunrise com snapix motif c xm adnt openwindows developers open look gil c xview sun guide gil c xview gil c olit gil c postscript for tnt exocode sxm motif c xm expert object exocode plus open look xview tae xw motif c xw xm c tcl tae control language like uil needs helper library vax fortran ada c nasa goddard mob xsculptor motif openlook c xm uil c xol kovi psm pm msw c uil lancorp motif mac pty ltd fax australia motifation motif c xm aka edv fax uib open look motif c oi parcplace look for magazine reviews for more complete comparisons of meta file formats documentation real ease of use etc unix world and unix review often carry articles in addition neuron data makes open interface a window system independent object toolkit which supports interfaces which are or resemble supersets of mac windows and motif and open look the package includes an interface builder in addition the grammi builder supports the development of ada x applications using its own set of objects which are planned to have a motif look grammi is written in ada and generates ada specs and stub bodies grammi in addition these non wysiwyg but related products may help for goals of rapid prototyping of the application interface wcl the widget creation library basically describes the widget hierarchy and actions in a resources file available from fine archive servers everywhere including devvax jpl nasa gov in pub wcl provides a very thin layer over xt without any internal tweaking version is current winterp an xlisp based motif toolkit allows for interpretive programming the copy on the r tape is outdated get a copy off export or email to winterp source hplnpm hplabs hp com the serpent uims permits the building of user interfaces without specific knowledge of coding but with an understanding of attributes being set on a particular motif widget beta release is available from ftp sei cmu edu and can be found in pub serpent serpent is also available on export lcs mit edu in contrib serpent email questions can go to serpent sei cmu edu a commercial version of serpent is available as agora from aset woodhaven drive pittsburgh pa garnet is a common lisp based gui toolkit information is available from garnet cs cmu edu metacard is a hypertext rapid application development environment similar to apple claris corporation s hypercard info metacard com metacard is available via anonymous ftp from ftp metacard com csn org or subject where can i find x tools callable from shell scripts i want to have a shell script pop up menus and yes no dialog boxes if the user is running x several tools in the r contrib area were developed to satisfy these needs yorn pops up a yes no box xmessage displays a string etc there are several versions of these tools few if any have made it to the r contrib area though they may still be available on various archive sites in addition richard hesketh rlh ukc ac uk has posted the xmenu package to comp sources x v i xmenu for of n choices two versions of xprompt have been posted to comp sources x the latter being an unauthorized rewrite r forsman thoth reef cis ufl edu there is a version of xmenu available from comp sources x it is being worked on and will likely be re released xp tar z xpick tar z and xzap tar z on export s contrib are tools by gerry tomlinson newcastle ac uk which act as x versions of the simple display and choice making tools in k p xtpanel lets the user build a panel containing interactive objects such as buttons sliders text fields etc either from the command line or using a simple scripting language it is available for anonymous ftp from hanauma stanford edu as pub x xtpanel tar z and may also be found in the alt sources archives subject where can i get an x based debugger xdbx an x interface to the dbx debugger is available via ftp from export the current version is patchlevel an x interface to gdb called xxgdb is more like xdbx it is part of comp sources x volume xxgdb tar z is on export mxgdb is a motif interface to gdb by jim tsillas jtsillas bubba ma bull com version was released ups is a source level debugger which runs under the x and sunview window systems on sun and dec platforms it is available from export as contrib ups tar z also ups to patch z and unix hensa ac uk in pub misc unix ups or try mail to archive unix hensa ac uk unofficial fixes by rod armstrong rod sj ate slb com are on unix hensa ac uk in misc unix ups contrib rod sj ate slb com also mips produces a highly customizable wcl based visual debugger you should be able to use sun s dbxtool with its x news server the codecenter source level debugger available on most major platforms includes an x based interface at t offers the examine graphical interface an x interface to dbx and c dbx for sun and sun and sdb and sdb for and b platforms call or contact examine mvuxi att com for more information solbourne offers pdb its x based debugger for c c and fortran pdb uses the oi toolkit and runs in either open look or motif mode sco info sco com offers dbxtra as part of several development systems lucid s energize programming system a tightly integrated development environment for c and c programs incorporates a graphical user interface on top of an extended version of gdb info lucid info lucid com or subject how can i tee an x program identically to several displays there are several protocol multiplexer tools which provide for the simultaneous display of x clients on any number of machines xmx an x protocol multiplexor is available from wilma cs brown edu as pub xmx tar z it works independently of the server and does not affect the application being shared it was developed for use in the electronic classroom xtv is a conference program which can be used to duplicate the chalkboard on several displays release is available on the x r contrib tapes a more recent version is on ftp cs odu edu as pub wahab xtv r tar z shx from michael altenhofen of digital equipment gmbh cec karlsruhe also does this it is a wysiwis what you see is what i see package in the context of a computer based learning training tool to provide online help from remote tutors but is also useful for general window sharing information shx nestvx enet dec com shx can be found on export and gatekeeper dec com pub x contrib shx tar z crl dec com pub x contrib shx tar z modifications to shx for color mapping and private color allocation by mark j handley m handley cs ucl ac uk are on cs ucl ac uk in car shx car tar z xtrap is implemented as a server library extension and can be used to record and then replay an x session it is available as gatekeeper dec com pub x contrib xtrap v tar z export lcs mit edu contrib xtrap v tar z wscrawl can be used as a multi person paint program it s available on sax stanford edu as wscrawl shar z shdr implements a simple shared whiteboard without a chalk passing mechanism it s available on parcftp xerox com as pub europarc shdr tar z sketchpad is a distributed interactive graphical editor particularly designed for sketching sources have been posted to alt sources and are available from ftp igd fhg de in ftp incoming sketchpad the nestor project is described in upgrading a window system for tutoring functions michael altenhofen et al the proceedings of the exug conference also of use hewlett packard co has a commercial product hp sharedx which works under hp ux currently on their and series workstations and their hp rx x stations machines receiving shared windows can be any x server hp sharedx consists of a server extensions and a motif based user interface process contact your local hp sales rep for more information ibm offers a commercial product sun offers multi user confering software called showme insoft mechanicsburg pa usa offers multi user confering software called communique thanks in part to scott spectra com tim scott and to peter cigehn peter lulea trab se subject topic building the x distribution topic needs updating to r subject what s a good source of information on configuring the x build this faq includes information on a number of gotchas that can bite you on particular system however the best source of general information on building the x release is found in the release notes the file is bundled separately from the rest of the release so if it s become separated from your sources you can ftp another copy separately the file relnotes ms ps txt at the top of the distribution the file relnotes is also available from the xstuff mail server in addition o reilly associates s volume on x administration includes information on configuring and building x subject why doesn t my sun with a cg work with r apparently gcc is the problem it seems to produce fine code for all sun displays except for the cgsix the new sungx o distributed with fix may fix the problem note not known to work on solaris subject why doesn t my sun with sunos know about dlsym etc if you get errors with dlsym dlopen dlclose undefined link with libdl a add ldl to your and eventually your site def you may want to surround it with bstatic ldl bdynamic if you add it to the extra libraries variable since syslibs get added after extra libraries on the eventual compilation command otherwise you may not have a shared libdl or compile the stubs shared thanks to joe backo joe backo east sun com subject what is this strange problem building x clients on sunos in sunos sun fixed a shared library bug in ld which conflicts with the way x r builds the shared xmu library causing these symbols to be undefined when building some x clients get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass compiling bstatic lxmu bdynamic appears to work to solve the problem if you are using openwindows x r based xt please contact your local sun office and request the following patches patch i d description x openwindows libxt jumbo patch x openwindows undefined symbols when using shared libxmu greg earle earle sun com a source patch for use with the mit x r libraries was developed by conrad kimball cek sdc boeing com it retrofits into r some fixes made in r to get around this problem the patch is on export in contrib x r sunos patch version z subject why can t gcc compile x r on my sparc i used gcc to compile the whole distribution but i get several segmentation faults when running x note first that gcc on risc machines does not necessarily result in any performance increase it certainly is not as noticeable as it is on the x or vax platforms here is the problem gcc and cc use incompatible methods of passing structures as arguments and returning them as function values so when gcc compiled parts of x are linked with sun supplied functions that pass or return structs run time errors occur affected programs include rgb and the server this is from the gcc manual on the sparc gnu cc uses an incompatible calling convention for structures it passes them by including their contents in the argument list whereas the standard compiler passes them effectively by reference this really ought to be fixed but such calling conventions are not yet supported in gnu cc so it isn t straightforward to fix it the convention for structure returning is also incompatible and fpcc struct return does not help you can duck the problem either by using cc throughout or by using it for just the routines which cause incompatibilities the problem cannot be solved with compilation flags files which need to be compiled using cc include server os bsd oscolor c rgb rgb c in addition several of the inet functions use structs as args or return values clients xhost xhost c clients xauth gethost c calls to inet addr in lib clx socket c and lib x xconndis c are possibly harmless as they don t involve structs collected by bashford scripps edu don bashford subject what are these i o errors running x built with gcc when i try to run xinit or the xsun server i get the error getting interface configuration operation not supported on socket fatal server bug no screens found running the gcc fixincludes script apparently didn t work you can do this simple test include sys ioctl h siocgifconf run that through cc e and gcc e the last line of output is the piece of interest it should be identical modulo irrelevant differences like whitespace if the gcc version has x where the cc version has i your fixincludes run didn t work for some reason or other go back to your gcc sources and run fixincludes then rebuild the x distribution if they are identical try running a make clean in mit server and rebuilding just to make sure everything gets compiled with the proper include files courtesy der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu subject what are these problems compiling x r on the older sun in mit server ddx sun suncg c c we have found missing defines for cg ac monolen cg bc monolen cg ac enblen cg bc enblen what should these be the r errata list distributed after x r mentions that you can add these lines to the file on older sunos versions e g to compile define cg ac monolen define cg ac enblen cg ac monolen define cg bc monolen cg ac monolen define cg bc enblen cg ac monolen however the sun should not actually ever have the cg device and so references to it can be removed from mit server ddx sun suninit c and the imakefile subject what are these problems compiling the x server on sunos the file sundev cg reg h isn t being found sun omitted sundev cg reg h from sunos remove the include from suncg c c and replace it with the line define cg vaddr color x the file has changed from earlier versions of sunos and should not be copied from another distribution subject what are these problems using r shared libraries on sunos all of the executables that i try to run have the following results ld so libxmu so not found or even ld so call to undefined procedure gethostname from xf a c if you are building with shared libraries on a sun remember that you need to run ldconfig as root after installing the shared libraries if you ve installed x on a file server run it on the server s clients too while building and installing the distribution you need to be careful to avoid linking against any existing x shared libraries you might have e g those distributed with openwindows you should make sure you do not have ld library path set in your environment during the build or the installation if you are going to keep xterm and xload as setuid programs please note that the shared libraries must be installed in usr lib usr local lib or usr lib for these programs to work or else those programs must be linked statically courtesy mit x consortium note also that the program mkfontdir is run as part of the build it attempts however to use the shared libraries before they have been installed you can avoid the errors by building mkfontdir statically pass bstatic to most c compilers subject can olit programs run with r xt xtqstring undefined this is a bug in the olit xtqstring was an external symbol that existed in x r upon which ow s libxt is based it wasn t documented and was removed in x r mit s guarantee of upward compatibility between the r and r libraries only applied to the documented interface a workaround is to temporarily set your ld library path to point to the x r or openwindows xt library that you linked the program against from barry margolin barmar think com from jeff francis jpf heliocentric com subject how do i get around the sunos security hole there is a security problem with certain r clients xterm and xload running under sunos that have been installed setuid root and are using shared libraries to avoid the problem do one of these make the program non setuid you should consult your system administrator concerning protection of resources e g ptys and dev kmem used by these programs to make sure that you do not create additional security problems at your site relink the programs statically using bstatic install the libraries before linking and link with absolute paths to the libraries from rws expo lcs mit edu bob scheifler the r version of xterm does this automatically by rebuilding xterm against the newly installed libraries when xterm is being installed this prevents an suid program from being built with libraries specified relatively note that this may cause an inconvenience when doing the installation from nfs mounted disks xload has been rewritten to avoid the problem subject how do i get around the frame buffer security hole on many systems the frame buffer is unsecured by default this permits anyone who can log into your workstation to peek at your windowing session by accessing the frame buffer directly or as less of a privacy issue but perhaps more annoying to accidentally start up a second x session on your console display check the man page for fbtab thanks to art mulder art cs ualberta ca subject topic building x programs subject what is imake imake is not a replacement for the make program instead it is a makefile generator that takes advantages of the include file and macro processing capabilities of the c preprocessor cpp to generate makefiles suitable for building software on a particular system although it is not specific to x the x release uses it to help solve a number of the configuration issues that arise in making such a large system widely portable imake has a fairly steep learning curve in part because the process by which the system specific configuration files system independent configuration files and individual imakefiles are melded to produce a makefile is not obvious there have been several different versions of imake the r r and r versions are different you can obtain information on imake from these sources the r and r release notes and imake man page include information on using imake to build x the r and r file mit config readme also contains useful information on the r tapes contrib doc imake imake tex is mark moraes r r guide to imake the r mit doc config usenixws paper ms contains a paper by jim fulton on an early version of imake paul dubois dubois primate wisc edu has written a useful explanation of how imake works and how to use it in configuring x for non supported systems the document is available from ftp primate wisc edu in the directory ftp pub imake stuff look for config x r ms troff and config x r ps postscript some supplemental appendices are nearby document version is now these imake papers are available by email mail a message body of send imake stuff help to almanac primate wisc edu see system administration imake friend of foe by dinah mcnutt in the november issue of sunexpert german readers should expect in june an article das meta make i make you make schwerelos by rainer klute in ix multiuser multitasking magazin directed at application programmers needing to write imakefiles an english language derivative of this article is in the x journal issue the o reilly x resource issue contains paul davey s article on demystifying imake alain brossard s working document full of tips on imake is in sasun epfl ch pub imakefile z subject where can i get imake versions are distributed with the r and r releases an earlier version is distributed with the x r release some third party toolkits redistribute versions of imake along with their own implementations of the template and configuration files there are no real standards for such configuration files although most current contributed software expects the templates distributed with x r export contains the r distribution unpacked so you can pick up imake without picking up the entire distribution a stand alone version of imake but one stemming from x r is in ftp germany eu net pub x misc imake imake pure tar z subject i have a program with an imakefile but no makefile what to do if you have r or r installed on your system run xmkmf this is a script which runs imake for you with the correct arguments the output is a makefile configured for your system and based on the imakefile then run make which will use that new makefile to compile the program subject why can t i link to the xlib shape routines when i try to compile certain programs i get the following link error undefined xshapequeryextension xshapecombinemask these routines are actually part of the shape extension to x shape which was introduced in the mit x r distribution and allows non rectangular windows like the other sample server extensions the shape extension will only run on a server which supports it pre x r servers as well as many vendor supplied servers do not support the shape extension in which case they will display rectangular windows anyway in order to use the shape extension you must link to the library libxext a in the x r distribution this library and the associated includes will be in the mit extensions directory if you do not have these files do not despair many freeware programs which use the shape extension can also be compiled without it by removing the dshape define from the makefile you can probably do this and compile successfully against your older vendor supplied x libraries from john b melby melby yk fujitsu co jp uunet uu net subject what are these problems with xtinherit not found on the sun when i run a x program that i wrote on a sunos or machine i get the error ld so symbol not found xtinherit what you are seeing is a side effect of a kludge in the r libxt a to get sun shared libraries working apparently you can t share a function that is both called and compared as xtinherit is this was handled by putting xtinherit in the same file as a function that is always used thereby guaranteeing that it would be loaded that is in initialize c where xttoolkitinitialize and xtinitialize reside these routines would normally be called you are probably seeing this error because your program is not a normal xt based program and does not call xttoolkitinitialize anywhere it may be a program that uses xt functions but never opens a connection to the x server osf motif s uil had this problem it called xtmalloc and other xt functions the solution is to add the call to your program the function does not have to be executed just linked in alternatively your program doesn t need any xt functions and is correct in not calling xttoolkitinitialize it may be an xlib or xview program in this case you can remove lxt from your link command it should not be necessary to link the shared libraries statically although this will certainly solve the problem from jordan hayes now jordan moorenet com and danny backx db sunbim be subject why can t i compile my r xaw contrib programs under the new x i have a program that worked well under x r when i try to link it under the current version of x i get this message undefined xtscrollbarsetthumb xttextsetinsertionpoint xttextreplace there were several name changes in the athena widget set in addition to the header files moving into x xaw these are mentioned in the r release notes in this case these functions are not really xt functions but are part of the xaw text widget and so have been renamed from xt to xaw subject topic programming problems and puzzles subject why doesn t my program get the keystrokes i select for sic the window manager controls how the input focus is transferred from one window to another in order to get keystrokes your program must ask the window manager for the input focus to do this you must set up what are called hints for the window manager if your applications is xlib based you can use something like the following xwmhints wmhints wmhints flags inputhint wmhints input true xsetwmhints dpy window wmhints if your application is based on the xt intrinsics you can set the xtninput resource to be true as you probably want to in any case if you don t have source you can start up the application with the resource input true certain window managers notably dxwm and olwm are very picky about having this done if you are using sun s openwindows olwm you can also add this resource to your defaults file to use clients that aren t icccm compliant openwindows focuslenience true mostly courtesy dave lemke of ncd and stuart marks of sun subject how do i figure out what window manager is running you can t reliably tell whatever mechanism you could use could be spoofed in any case for most cases you shouldn t care which window manager is running so long as you do things in an icccm conformant manner there are some cases in which particular window managers are known to do things wrong checking for particular hints placed on the window by the window manager so that you can sidestep the problem may be appropriate in these cases alternatively it may be appropriate to determine which window manager is running in order to take advantage of specific added features such as olwm s push pin menus in order to give your program added functionality beware of usurping the window manager s functions by providing that functionality even when it is missing this surely leads to future compatibility problems subject is there a skeleton x program available there is no general framework such as the transskel program for the macintosh which handles lots of the odds and ends and overhead of development under a window system and which can be used as a platform for additional development in x the problem is typically solved by using an interactive application builder tool or by using cut paste on existing x applications good applications which you might look to manipulate when you want to test just this one little thing include contrib clients xskel a simple r program that puts up a window and allows sketching in it and offers a starting point for quick hacks the xaw examples in the examples directory in the r and r distributions and the xlib hello world example in the r doc helloworld and r doc tutorials helloworld an updated version of this program which uses r xlib calls and current icccm conventions was posted in to comp windows x by glenn widener of tektronix in addition a sample xt program for xaw or xm by rainer klute showing how to open multiple displays and how to catch a broken display connection is available on export lcs mit edu in contrib mdisp tar z subject why does xtgetvalues not work for me sic the xtgetvalues interface for retrieving resources from a widget is sensitive to the type of variable your code may be doing something like this arg args int i int sensitive oops wrong data type i xtsetarg args i xtnsensitive sensitive i xtgetvalues widget args i but xtnsensitive is a boolean which on most machines is a single byte declaring the variable sensitive as boolean works properly this problem comes up often when using particular toolkits that redefine the xt types dimension and position code that assumes they are int will have similar problems if those types are actually short in general you are safe if you use the actual type of the resource as it appears in the widget s man page subject why don t xtconfigurewidget xtresizewidget xtmovewidget work you re probably trying to use these functions from application code they should be used only internally to widgets these functions are for a parent widget to change the geometry of its children other promising functions xtmakegeometryrequest and xtmakeresizerequest are also for use only by widgets in this case by a child to request a change from its parent the only way for your application to request a geometry change for a widget is to issue an xtsetvalues call setting some of the geometry resources although this will result in the widget internal functions being called your application code must use the standard xtsetvalues interface or risk the widgets data becoming corrupted the xlib calls xmovewindow and xresizewindow should similarly be avoided they shouldn t be used to change xtnx xtny xtnwidth or xtnheight subject why isn t there an xtreparentwidget call like xreparentwindow although there are various details of the current implementation of the xt internals which make reparenting difficult the major reason that no such call exists is that it remains undefined what the set of resources for the new widget should be resources are typically set based on the location in the instance hierarchy what resources should change if the instance moves what should happen to the widget s children and by the time such semantics are defined there would probably be little advantage over destroying the old widget and creating a new widget in the correct location with the desired resources as setting the resources correctly is the majority of work in creating a new widget note that reparenting is possible in the oi toolkit david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net just the faqs ma am joe friday david b lewis temporarily at but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	whole win on screen window placement on screen i would like to configure my system a hp unix to avoid that any corner of a given window is displayed outside of the visible screen the whole window should be visible and it should be impossible to move any window outside the visible aerea can this be done by configuring the window manager s resources can this be done on applikation level a hardcoded solution is possible but is it possible to have a upper limit of a given window size thank you for information and help
comp.windows.x	comp windows x frequently asked questions faq archive name x faq part last modified subject i m writing a widget and can t use a float as a resource value float resources are not portable the size of the value may be larger than the size of an xtpointer try using a pointer to a float instead the xaw scrollbar float resources are handled in this way subject is this a memory leak in the x r xtdestroywidget yes this is the unofficial fix for the x r destroy c destroy c thu jul lib xt destroy c thu jul xconsortium destroy c v swick exp plus unofficial patches in revisions and copyright by digital equipment corporation maynard massachusetts int i destroyrec dr app destroy list while i app destroy count if dr dispatch level dispatch level widget w dr widget if app destroy count bcopy char dr char dr app destroy count sizeof destroyrec xtphase destroy w else i dr int i destroyrec dr while i app destroy count xtphase destroy can result in calls to xtdestroywidget and these could cause app destroy list to be reallocated dr app destroy list i if dr dispatch level dispatch level widget w dr widget if app destroy count bcopy char dr char dr app destroy count i sizeof destroyrec xtphase destroy w else i from donna converse converse expo lcs mit edu subject are callbacks guaranteed to be called in the order registered although some books demonstrate that the current implementation of xt happens to call callback procedures in the order in which they are registered the specification does not guarantee such a sequence and supplemental authoritative documents i e the asente swick volume do say that the order is undefined because the callback list can be manipulated by both the widget and the application xt cannot guarantee the order of execution in general the callback procedures should be thought of as operating independently of one another and should not depend on side effects of other callbacks operating if a seqence is needed then the single callback to be registered can explicitly call other functions necessary thanks to converse expo lcs mit edu subject why doesn t xtdestroywidget actually destroy the widget xtdestroywidget operates in two passes in order to avoid leaving dangling data structures the function call marks the widget which is not actually destroyed until your program returns to its event loop subject how do i query the user synchronously using xt it is possible to have code which looks like this trivial callback which has a clear flow of control the calls to askuser block until answer is set to one of the valid values if it is not a yes answer the code drops out of the callback and back to an event processing loop void quit widget w xtpointer client xtpointer call int answer answer askuser w really quit if ret yes answer answer askuser w are you really positive if ret yes answer exit a more realistic example might ask whether to create a file or whether to overwrite it this is accomplished by entering a second event processing loop and waiting until the user answers the question the answer is returned to the calling function that function askuser looks something like this where the motif can be replaced with widget set specific code to create some sort of dialog box displaying the question string and buttons for ok cancel and help or equivalents int askuser w string widget w char string int answer ret none some not used marker widget dialog could cache carry but arg args int n xtappcontext context n xtsetarg args n xmnmessagestring xmstringcreateltor string xmstring default charset n xtsetarg args n xmndialogstyle xmdialog application modal n dialog xmcreatequestiondialog xtparent w string args n xtaddcallback dialog xmnokcallback response answer xtaddcallback dialog xmncancelcallback response answer xtaddcallback dialog xmnhelpcallback response answer xtmanagechild dialog context xtwidgettoapplicationcontext w while answer ret none xtapppending context xtappprocessevent context xtimall xtdestroywidget dialog blow away the dialog box and shell return answer the dialog supports three buttons which are set to call the same function when tickled by the user the variable answer is set when the user finally selects one of those choices void response w client call widget w xtpointer client xtpointer call int answer int client xmanycallbackstruct reason xmanycallbackstruct call switch reason reason case xmcr ok answer ret yes some define value break case xmcr cancel answer ret no break case xmcr help answer ret help break default return and the code unwraps back to the point at which an answer was needed and continues from there thanks to dan heller argv sun com further code is in dan s r contrib widgetwrap library subject how do i determine the name of an existing widget i have a widget id and need to know what the name of that widget is users of r and later are best off using the xtname function which will work on both widgets and non widget objects if you are still using r you can use this simple bit of code to do what you want note that it depends on the widget s internal data structures and is not necessarily portable to future versions of xt including r include x corep h include x xresource h string xtname widget widget widget will work with non widget objects return xrmnametostring widget core xrm name modified with suggestion by larry rogers larry boris webo dg com subject why do i get a baddrawable error drawing to xtwindow widget i m doing this in order to get a window into which i can do xlib graphics within my xt based program canvas xtcreatemanagedwidget widgetclass drawing area window xtwindow canvas get the window associated with the widget xdrawline window produces error the window associated with the widget is created as a part of the realization of the widget using a window id of null no window could create the error that you describe it is necessary to call xtrealizewidget before attempting to use the window associated with a widget note that the window will be created after the xtrealizewidget call but that the server may not have actually mapped it yet so you should also wait for an expose event on the window before drawing into it subject why do i get a badmatch error when calling xgetimage the badmatch error can occur if the specified rectangle goes off the edge of the screen if you don t want to catch the error and deal with it you can take the following steps to avoid the error make a pixmap the same size as the rectangle you want to capture clear the pixmap to background using xfillrectangle use xcopyarea to copy the window to the pixmap if you get a noexpose event the copy was clean use xgetimage to grab the image from the pixmap if you get one or more graphicsexpose events the copy wasn t clean and the x y width height members of the graphicsexpose event structures tell you the parts of the pixmap which aren t good get rid of the pixmap it probably takes a lot of memory thanks to oliver jones oj pictel com subject how can my application tell if it is being run under x a number of programs offer x modes but otherwise run in a straight character only mode the easiest way for an application to determine that it is running on an x display is to attempt to open a connection to the x server display xopendisplay display name if display do x stuff else do curses or something else where display name is either the string specified on the command line following display by convention or otherwise is char null in which case xopendisplay uses the value of display if set this is superior to simply checking for the existence a display command line argument or checking for display set in the environment neither of which is adequate subject how do i make a busy cursor while my application is computing is it necessary to call xdefinecursor for every window in my application the easiest thing to do is to create a single inputonly window that is as large as the largest possible screen make it a child of your toplevel window and it will be clipped to that window so it won t affect any other application it needs to be as big as the largest possible screen in case the user enlarges the window while it is busy or moves elsewhere within a virtual desktop substitute toplevel with your top most widget here similar code should work for xlib only applications just use your top window unsigned long valuemask xsetwindowattributes attributes ignore device events while the busy cursor is displayed valuemask cwdontpropagate cwcursor attributes do not propagate mask keypressmask keyreleasemask buttonpressmask buttonreleasemask pointermotionmask attributes cursor xcreatefontcursor xtdisplay toplevel xc watch the window will be as big as the display screen and clipped by its own parent window so we never have to worry about resizing xcreatewindow xtdisplay toplevel xtwindow toplevel unsigned int inputonly copyfromparent valuemask attributes where the maximum size above could be replaced by the real size of the screen particularly to avoid servers which have problems with windows larger than when you want to use this busy cursor map and raise this window to go back to normal unmap it this will automatically keep you from getting extra mouse events depending on precisely how the window manager works it may or may not have a similar effect on keystrokes as well in addition note also that most of the xaw widgets support an xtncursor resource which can be temporarily reset should you merely wish to change the cursor without blocking pointer events thanks to andrew wason aw cellar bae bellcore com dan heller argv sun com and mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu subject how do i fork without hanging my parent x program an x based application which spawns off other unix processes which continue to run after it is closed typically does not vanish until all of its children are terminated the children inherit from the parent the open x connection to the display what you need to do is fork then immediately in the child process close connectionnumber xtdisplay widget to close the file descriptor in the display information after this do your exec you will then be able to exit the parent alternatively before exec ing make this call which causes the file descriptor to be closed on exec void fcntl connectionnumber xdisplay f setfd thanks to janet anstett anstettj tramp colorado edu gordon freedman gjf duts ccc amdahl com greg holmberg holmberg frame com subject can i make xt or xlib calls from a signal handler no xlib and xt have no mutual exclusion for protecting critical sections if your signal handler makes such a call at the wrong time which might be while the function you are calling is already executing it can leave the library in an inconsistent state note that the ansi c standard points out that behavior of a signal handler is undefined if the signal handler calls any function other than signal itself so this is not a problem specific to xlib and xt the posix specification mentions other functions which may be called safely but it may not be assumed that these functions are called by xlib or xt functions you can work around the problem by setting a flag in the interrupt handler and later checking it with a work procedure or a timer event which has previously been added note the article in the x journal and the example in o reilly volume are in error thanks to pete ware ware cis ohio state edu and donna converse converse expo lcs mit edu subject what are these xlib sequence lost errors you may see these errors if you issue xlib requests from an xlib error handler or more likely if you make calls which generate x requests to xt or xlib from a signal handler which you shouldn t be doing in any case subject how can my xt program handle socket pipe or file input it s very common to need to write an xt program that can accept input both from a user via the x connection and from some other file descriptor but which operates efficiently and without blocking on either the x connection or the other file descriptor a solution is use xtappaddinput after you open your file descriptor use xtappaddinput to register an input handler the input handler will be called every time there is something on the file descriptor requiring your program s attention write the input handler like you would any other xt callback so it does its work quickly and returns it is important to use only non blocking i o system calls in your input handlers most input handlers read the file descriptor although you can have an input handler write or handle exception conditions if you wish be careful when you register an input handler to read from a disk file you will find that the function is called even when there isn t input pending xtappaddinput is actually working as it is supposed to the input handler is called whenever the file descriptor is ready to be read not only when there is new data to be read a disk file unlike a pipe or socket is almost always ready to be read however if only because you can spin back to the beginning and read data you ve read before the result is that your function will almost always be called every time around xtappmainloop there is a way to get the type of interaction you are expecting add this line to the beginning of your function to test whether there is new data if ioctl fd fionread n n return but because this is called frequently your application is effectively in a busy wait you may be better off not using xtappaddinput and instead setting a timer and in the timer procedure checking the file for input courtesy dan heller argv ora com mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu ollie jones oj pictel com subject how do i simulate a button press release event for a widget you can do this using xsendevent it s likely that you re not setting the window field in the event which xt needs in order to match to the widget which should receive the event if you re sending events to your own application then you can use xtdispatchevent instead this is more efficient than xsendevent in that you avoid a round trip to the server depending on how well the widget was written you may be able to call its action procedures in order to get the effects you want courtesy mark a horstman mh sarek sbc com subject why doesn t anything appear when i run this simple program the window xcreatesimplewindow the display root window size hints x size hints y size hints width size hints height border width blackpixel the display the screen whitepixel the display the screen xselectinput the display the window exposuremask buttonpressmask buttonreleasemask xmapwindow the display the window xdrawline the display the window the gc you are right to map the window before drawing into it however the window is not ready to be drawn into until it actually appears on the screen until your application receives an expose event drawing done before that will generally not appear you ll see code like this in many programs this code would appear after window was created and mapped while done xnextevent the display the event switch the event type case expose on expose events redraw xdrawline the display the window the gc break note that there is a second problem some xlib implementations don t set up the default graphics context to have correct foreground background colors so this program could previously include this code the gc values foreground blackpixel the display the screen e g the gc values background whitepixel the display the screen e g the gc xcreategc the display the window gcforeground gcbackground the gc values note the code uses blackpixel and whitepixel to avoid assuming that is black and is white or vice versa the relationship between pixels and and the colors black and white is implementation dependent they may be reversed or they may not even correspond to black and white at all also note that actually using blackpixel and whitepixel is usually the wrong thing to do in a finished program as it ignores the user s preference for foreground and background and also note that you can run into the same situation in an xt based program if you draw into the xtwindow w right after it has been realized it may not yet have appeared subject what is the difference between a screen and a screen the screen is an xlib structure which includes the information about one of the monitors or virtual monitors which a single x display supports a server can support several independent screens they are numbered unix unix unix etc the screen or screen number is the second digit the which can be thought of as an index into the array of available screens on this particular display connection the macros which you can use to obtain information about the particular screen on which your application is running typically have two forms one which takes a screen and one with takes both the display and the screen number in xt based programs you typically use xtscreen widget to determine the screen on which your application is running if it uses a single screen part of the confusion may arise from the fact that some of the macros which return characteristics of the screen have display in the names xdisplaywidth xdisplayheight etc subject can i use c with x motif xview the x r header files are compatible with c the motif header files are usable as is inside extern c however the definition of string in intrinsic h can conflict with the libg or other string class and needs to be worked around some other projects which can help wwl a set of c classes by jean daniel fekete to wrap x toolkit widgets available via anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu as contrib wwl tar z or lri lri fr as pub wwl tar z it works by building a set of c classes in parallel to the class tree of the widgets the c interviews toolkit is obtainable via anonymous ftp from interviews stanford edu interviews uses a box glue model similar to that of tex for constructing user interfaces and supports multiple looks on the user interfaces some of its sample applications include a wysiwig document editor doc a macdraw like drawing program idraw and an interface builder ibuild things a class library written at the rome air force base by the strategic air command available as freeware on archive sites motif is a public domain library that defines c class wrappers for motif it adds an application class for e g initializing x and also integrates wcl and the xbae widget set this work was developed by ronald van loon rvloon cv ruu nl based on x a set of bindings done by the university of lowell graphics research laboratory the current sources are available from decuac dec com as pub x motif jul tar z the source code examples for doug young s object oriented programming with c and osf motif isbn do not include widget wrappers but do include a set of classes that encapsulates higher level facilities commonly needed by motif or other xt based applications check export in ftp contrib young c tar z rogue wave offers view h for c programmers using motif info or a product called commonview by glockenspiel ltd ireland apparently is a c based toolkit for multiple window systems including pm windows and x motif xv is sold by qualix fax it implements an interface from the gil files that sun s openwindows developers guide produces to xview wrapper classes in c uit is a set of c classes embedding the xview toolkit it is intended for use with sun s openwindows developers guide builder tool sources are on export mit edu au as uit tar z version was released also of likely use is objectcenter saber c and a reasonable alternative to all of the above is parcplace s formerly solbourne s object interface thanks to douglas s rand dsrand mitre org and george wu gwu tcs com subject where can i obtain alternate language bindings to x versions of the clx lisp bindings are part of the x core source distributions a version of clx is on the r tape version is on export lcs mit edu in contrib clx r tar z the saic ada x bindings are through anonymous ftp in pub from stars rosslyn unisys com there is an x ada study team sponsored by nasa jsc which apparently is working out bindings information xada ghg hou tx us gnu smalltalk has a beta native smalltalk binding to x called stix by steven byrne eng sun com it is still in its beginning stages and documentation is sparse outside the smalltalk code itself the sources are available as pub gnu smalltalk tar z on prep ai mit edu or ugle unit no prolog bindings called xwip written by ted kim at ucla while supported in part by darpa are available by anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu contrib xwip tar z or ftp cs ucla edu pub xwip tar z these prolog language bindings depend on having a quintus type foreign function interface in your prolog the developer has gotten it to work with quintus and sicstus prolog inquiries should go to xwip cs ucla edu scheme bindings to xlib osf motif and xaw are part of the elk distribution version a on export obsoletes the version on the r contrib tape x scm a bolt on accessory for aubrey jaffer s scm scheme interpreter that provides an interface to xlib motif and openlook is now available via ftp from altdorf ai mit edu archive scm xscm tar z and nexus yorku ca pub scheme new xscm tar z ada bindings to motif explicitly will eventually be made available by the jet propulsion laboratories probably through the normal electronic means advance information can be obtained from dsouleles dsfvax jpl nasa gov who may respond as time permits adamotif is a complete binding to x and motif for the ada language for many common systems it is based in part upon the saic unisys bindings and also includes a uil to ada translator info systems engineering research corporation ada serc well serc apple com also the mit consortium although not involved in producing ada bindings for x maintains a partial listing of people involved in x and ada information is available from donna converse converse expo lcs mit edu subject can xgetwindowattributes get a window s background pixel pixmap no once set the background pixel or pixmap of a window cannot be re read by clients the reason for this is that a client can create a pixmap set it to be the background pixmap of a window and then free the pixmap the window keeps this background but the pixmap itself is destroyed if you re sure a window has a background pixel not a pixmap you can use xcleararea to clear a region to the background color and then use xgetimage to read back that pixel however this action alters the contents of the window and it suffers from race conditions with exposures courtesy dave lemke of ncd and stuart marks of sun note that the same applies to the border pixel pixmap this is a mis feature of the protocol which allows the server is free to manipulate the pixel pixmap however it wants by not requiring the server to keep the original pixel or pixmap some potentially a lot of space can be saved courtesy jim fulton mit x consortium subject how do i create a transparent window a completely transparent window is easy to get use an inputonly window in order to create a window which is mostly transparent you have several choices the shape extension first released with x r offers an easy way to make non rectangular windows so you can set the shape of the window to fit the areas where the window should be nontransparent however not all servers support the extension a machine specific method of implementing transparent windows for particular servers is to use an overlay plane supported by the hardware note that there is no x notion of a transparent color index a generally portable solution is to use a large number of tiny windows but this makes operating on the application as a unit difficult a final answer is to consider whether you really need a transparent window or if you would be satisfied with being able to overlay your application window with information if so you can draw into separate bitplanes in colors that will appear properly thanks to der mouse mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu see also the x journal for a more complete answer including code samples for this last option subject why doesn t gxxor produce mathematically correct color values when using gxxor you may expect that drawing with a value of black on a background of black for example should produce white however the drawing operation does not work on rgb values but on colormap indices the color that the resulting colormap index actually points to is undefined and visually random unless you have actually filled it in yourself on many x servers black and white often or programs taking advantage of this mathematical coincidence will break if you want to be combining colors with gxxor then you should be allocating a number of your own color cells and filling them with your chosen pre computed values if you want to use gxxor simply to switch between two colors then you can take the shortcut of setting the background color in the gc graphics context to and the foreground color to a value such that when it draws over red say the result is blue and when it draws over blue the result is red this foreground value is itself the xor of the colormap indices of red and blue thanks to chris flatters cflatter zia aoc nrao edu and ken whaley whaley spectre pa dec com subject why does every color i allocate show up as black make sure you re using bits and not the red green and blue fields of an xcolor structure are scaled so that is nothing and is full blast if you forget to scale using for example for each color the xalloccolor function will perform correctly but the resulting color is usually black thanks to paul asente asente adobe com subject why can t my program get a standard colormap i have an image processing program which uses xgetrgbcolormap to get the standard colormap but it doesn t work xgetrgbcolormap when used with the property xa rgb default map does not create a standard colormap it just returns one if one already exists use xstdcmap or do what it does in order to create the standard colormap first from der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu subject why does the pixmap i copy to the screen show up as garbage the initial contents of pixmaps are undefined this means that most servers will allocate the memory and leave around whatever happens to be there which is usually garbage you probably want to clear the pixmap first using xfillrectangle with a function of gxcopy and a foreground pixel of whatever color you want as your background or l if you are using the pixmap as a mask courtesy dave lemke of ncd and stuart marks of sun subject how do i check whether a window id is valid my program has the id of a window on a remote display i want to check whether the window exists before doing anything with it because x is asynchronous there isn t a guarantee that the window would still exist between the time that you got the id and the time you sent an event to the window or otherwise manipulated it what you should do is send the event without checking but install an error handler to catch any badwindow errors which would indicate that the window no longer exists this scheme will work except on the rare occasion that the original window has been destroyed and its id reallocated to another window courtesy ken lee klee synoptics com subject can i have two applications draw to the same window yes the x server assigns ids to windows and other resources actually the server assigns some bits the client others and any application that knows the id can manipulate the resource almost any x server resource except for gcs and private color cells can be shared the problem you face is how to disseminate the window id to multiple applications a simple way to handle this and which solves the problem of the applications running on different machines is in the first application to create a specially named property on the root window and put the window id into it the second application then retrieves the property whose name it also knows and then can draw whatever it wants into the window note this scheme works iff there is only one instance of the first application running and the scheme is subject to the limitations mentioned in the question about using window ids on remote displays note also that you will still need to coordinate any higher level cooperation among your applications note also that two processes can share a window but should not try to use the same server connection if one process is a child of the other it should close down the connection to the server and open its own connection mostly courtesy phil karlton karlton wpd sgi com subject why can t my program work with tvtwm or swm a number of applications including xwd xwininfo and xsetroot do not handle the virtual root window which tvtwm and swm use they typically return the wrong child of root a general solution is to add this code or to use it in your own application where you would normally use rootwindow dpy screen function name getvroot description gets the root window even if it s a virtual root arguments the display and the screen returns the root window for the client include x xatom h window getvroot dpy scr display dpy int scr window rootreturn parentreturn children unsigned int numchildren window root rootwindow dpy scr atom swm vroot none int i swm vroot xinternatom dpy swm vroot false xquerytree dpy root rootreturn parentreturn children numchildren for i i numchildren i atom actual type int actual format long nitems bytesafter window newroot null if xgetwindowproperty dpy children i swm vroot false xa window actual type actual format nitems bytesafter unsigned char newroot success newroot root newroot break return root courtesy david elliott dce smsc sony com similar code is in ssetroot a version of xsetroot distributed with tvtwm a header file by andreas stolcke of icsi on export lcs mit edu contrib vroot h functions similarly by providing macros for rootwindow and defaultrootwindow code can include this header file first to run properly in the presence of a virtual desktop subject how do i keep a window from being resized by the user resizing the window is done through the window manager window managers can pay attention to the size hints your application places on the window but there is no guarantee that the window manager will listen you can try setting the minimum and maximum size hints to your target size and hope for the best subject how do i keep a window in the foreground at all times it s rather antisocial for an application to constantly raise itself e g by tracking visibilitynotify events so that it isn t overlapped imagine the conflict between two such programs running the only sure way to have your window appear on the top of the stack is to make the window override redirect this means that you are temporarily assuming window management duties while the window is up so you want to do this infrequently and then only for short periods of time e g for popup menus or other short parameter setting windows thanks to der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu subject how do i make text and bitmaps blink in x there is no easy way unless you re willing to depend on some sort of extension as yet non existent you have to arrange for the blinking yourself either by redrawing the contents periodically or if possible by playing games with the colormap and changing the color of the contents thanks to mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu der mouse subject how do i get a double click in xlib users of xt have the support of the translation manager to help get notification of double clicking there is no good way to get only a double click in xlib because the protocol does not provide enough support to do double clicks you have to do client side timeouts unless the single click action is such that you can defer actually taking it until you next see an event from the server thus you have to do timeouts which means system dependent code on most unixish implementations you can use xconnectionnumber to get the file descriptor of the x connection and then use select or something similar on that note that many user interface references suggest that a double click be used to extend the action indicated by a single click if this is the case in your interface then you can execute the first action and as a compromise check the timestamp on the second event to determine whether it too should be the single click action or the double click action thanks to mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu der mouse subject how do i render rotated text xlib intentionally does not provide such sophisticated graphics capabilities leaving them up to server extensions or clients side graphics libraries your only choice if you want to stay within the core x protocol is to render the text into a pixmap read it back via xgetimage rotate it by hand with whatever matrices you want and put it back to the server via xputimage more specifically create a bitmap b and write your text to it create an xybitmap image i from b via xgetimage create an xybitmap image i big enough to handle the transformation for each x y in i i x y i a b where a x cos theta y sin theta b x sin theta y cos theta render i note that you should be careful how you implement this not to lose bits an algorithm based on shear transformations may in fact be better the high level server extensions and graphics packages available for x also permit rendering of rotated text display postscript pex phigs and gks although most are not capable of arbitrary rotation and probably do not use the same fonts that would be found on a printer in addition if you have enough access to the server to install a font on it you can create a font which consists of letters rotated at some predefined angle your application can then itself figure out placement of each glyph courtesy der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu eric taylor etaylor wilkins bmc tmc edu and ken lee klee synoptics com liam quin lee sq com interviews c ui toolkit in the x contrib software has support for rendering rotated fonts in x it could be one source of example code brian r smith brsmith cs umn edu another possibility is to use the hershey fonts they are stroke rendered and can be used by x by converting them into xdrawline requests eric pencom com the xrotfont program by alan richardson mppa syma sussex ac uk posted to comp sources x july paints a rotated font by implementing the method above and by using an outline hershey font the xvertext package by alan richardson mppa syma sussex ac uk is a set of functions to facilitate the writing of text at any angle version was recently released to alt sources and comp sources misc it is also on export as contrib xvertext shar z o reilly s x resource volume includes information from hp about modifications to the x fonts server which provide for rotated and scaled text subject what is the x registry how do i reserve names there are places in the x toolkit in applications and in the x protocol that define and use string names the context is such that conflicts are possible if different components use the same name for different things the mit x consortium maintains a registry of names in these domains orgainization names selection names selection targets resource types application classes and class extension record types and several others the list as of is in the directory mit doc registry on the r tape it is also available by sending send docs registry to the xstuff mail server to register names first come first served or to ask questions send to xregistry expo lcs mit edu be sure to include a postal address for confirmation condensed from asente swick appendix h david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net just the faqs ma am joe friday david b lewis temporarily at but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	re mouse buttons urgent on apr gmt it ik dmu ac uk i kler said ik nntp posting host elm ik i know it sounds stupid but ik does anyone know how to control individual mouse buttons ik i am writing an application which currently makes use of ik buttonpressmask however this is invoked by the pressing ik of any mouse button i want to be able to restrict this ik to one of the buttons i tried button pressmask but ik just get undefined errors i know it can be done and i ik am pretty sure theres an easy answer to it but i just don t know ik what it is ik time is of the essence there is no event mask for a particular mouse button press however in your event handler you can use the event structure passed in and query it to find which button was pressed i e void someeventhandler widget w xtpointer data xevent event catch the button usually left button if event xbutton button button do some action else do nothing and exit from function guy singh ixi internet guy x co uk vision park uucp guy ixi uucp cambridge bang uunet ixi guy cb zr uk tel
comp.windows.x	re x protocol packet type in article dep slacvm slac stanford edu dep slacvm slac stanford edu writes is there a way to identify an x protocol packet under decnet under tcp ip the information in the packets isn t necessarily distinctive you need to know that it is an x connection ethan
comp.windows.x	re drawing colour pixmaps not rectangular in article mar etrog se citri edu au jck catt citri edu au justin kibell writes i am writing a program which needs to draw colour xpm pixmap files onto a background without having the borders show up i cannot do xor as the colours all stuff up i cannot use xcopyplane as that is for single planes only i want to be able to specify a colour in the pixmap to be used as the opaque colour is this possible games such as xjewel have the same problem how does the mouse pointer do it any help would be helpful you wanna do masking build a bitmap pixmap of depth one where all pixels you name opaque are that get copied and the others are use this bitmap as the clip mask in the gc used for xcopyarea and remember to adjust the clip origin coordinates to the xcopyarea blit origin the mouse pointer besides from that it is driven using ramdac analog mapping on most hardwares uses a mask too but be warned blitting through a mask and especially moving around this mask is annoying slow on most xservers it flickers even at mips o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re pixmaps masks icons clues in article sophia inria fr lehors koala inria fr arnaud le hors writes in article buzz mar lion bear com buzz bear com buzz moschetti writes this is a simple x graphics question assume you have a valid window w an icon pixmap and the background mask also a pixmap for that icon you wish to place the icon at x y in w without the background question what combination of xcopyarea and gc functions are necessary i think the idea is to merge only those pixels of pixmap into w as indicated by the corresponding mask pixel value specifically the problem involves a pixmap and mask generated by the xpm libs any clues would be most appreciated xpm provides you with symbolic color names which can be specified at load time so for doing what you want i would suggest you to define a background symbol in your pixmap file which you ll set to whatever color is used by the widget or the window on which you want to put your pixmap this would surely be the simplest and fastest way to do what you want no as soon as you blit two of this icons once on top of the other with a little dislocation you see the rectangular blit crashes too much of the icon first blitted because it draws a full rectangle the way to do it is masking create a bitmap with all pixels to be merged are and all not to be merged are then set the clip mask of the gc to this bitmap set the clip x origin and clip y origin of the gc to the x y coordinates where you blit the icon to the destination drawable use gxcopy and xcopyarea the icon pixmap to the destination drawable using this gc o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	comp windows x frequently asked questions faq archive name x faq part last modified this article and several following contain the answers to some frequently asked questions faq often seen in comp windows x it is posted to help reduce volume in this newsgroup and to provide hard to find information of general interest please redistribute this article this article includes answers to the following questions which are loosely grouped into categories questions marked with a indicate questions new to this issue those with significant changes of content since the last issue are marked by topic basic information sources and definitions what books and articles on x are good for beginners what courses on x and various x toolkits are available what conferences on x are coming up what x related public mailing lists are available how can i meet other x developers what related faqs are available how do i ask a net question so as to maximize helpful responses what publications discussing x are available what are these common abbreviations acronyms what is the icccm how do i write x friendly applications what is the x consortium and how do i join just what are open look and motif just what is openwindows just what is decwindows what is pex what is low bandwidth x lbx xremote ppp slip cslip topic using x in day to day life what are all these different window managers why does my x session exit when i kill my window manager sic can i save the state of my x session like toolplaces does how do i use another window manager with dec s session manager how do i change the keyboard auto repeat rate how do i remap the keys on my keyboard to produce a string how do i make a screendump or print my application how do i make a color postscript screendump of the x display how do i make a screendump including the x cursor how do i convert view mac tiff gif sun pict img fax images in x how can i change the titlebar of my xterm window where can i find the xterm control sequences why does the r xterm et al fail against the r server how can i use characters above ascii in xterm why are my xterm menus so small how can i print the current selection how does xt use environment variables in loading resources how to i have the r xdm put a picture behind the log in window why isn t my path set when xdm runs my xsession file how do i keep my display when i rlogin to another machine how can i design my own font why does adding a font to the server not work sic how do i convert a snf font back to bdf font what is a general method of getting a font in usable format how do i use decwindows fonts on my non decwindows server how do i add bdf fonts to my decwindows server how can i set backgroundpixmap in a defaults file what is xpm why can t i override translations only the first item works how can i have xclock or oclock show different timezones i have xmh but it doesn t work where can i get mh why am i suddenly unable to connect to my sun x server why don t the r pex demos work on my mono screen how do i get my sun type keyboard fully supported by xsun how do i report bugs in x why do i get warning widget class version mismatch where can i find a dictionary server for xwebster topic obtaining x and related software and hardware is x public domain software how compatible are x r r and r what changes are there where can i get x r source and or binaries where can i get patches to x r what is the xstuff mail archive where can i get x r source and binaries where can i get osf motif does motif work with x r x r where can i get toolkits implementing open look where can i get other x sources including r modifications where can i get interesting widgets where can i get a good file selector widget what widget is appropriate to use as a drawing canvas what is the current state of the world in x terminals where can i get an x server with a touchscreen or lightpen where can i get an x server on a pc dos or unix where can i get an x server on a macintosh running macos where can i get x for the amiga where can i get a fast x server for a workstation where can i get a server for my high end sun graphics board where can i get an x terminal server for my low end sun what terminal emulators other than xterm are available where can i get an x based editor or word processor where can i get an x based mailer where can i get an x based paint draw program where can i get an x based plotting program where can i get an x based spreadsheet where can i get x based project management software where can i get an x based postscript previewer where can i get an x based gks package where can i get an x based pex package where can i get an x based tex or dvi previewer where can i get an x based troff previewer where can i get a wysiwyg interface builder where can i find x tools callable from shell scripts where can i get an x based debugger how can i tee an x program identically to several displays topic building the x distribution topic needs updating to r what s a good source of information on configuring the x build why doesn t my sun with a cg work with r why doesn t my sun with sunos know about dlsym etc what is this strange problem building x clients on sunos why can t gcc compile x r on my sparc what are these i o errors running x built with gcc what are these problems compiling x r on the older sun what are these problems compiling the x server on sunos what are these problems using r shared libraries on sunos can olit programs run with r xt xtqstring undefined how do i get around the sunos security hole how do i get around the frame buffer security hole topic building x programs what is imake where can i get imake i have a program with an imakefile but no makefile what to do why can t i link to the xlib shape routines what are these problems with xtinherit not found on the sun why can t i compile my r xaw contrib programs under the new x topic programming problems and puzzles why doesn t my program get the keystrokes i select for sic how do i figure out what window manager is running is there a skeleton x program available why does xtgetvalues not work for me sic why don t xtconfigurewidget xtresizewidget xtmovewidget work why isn t there an xtreparentwidget call like xreparentwindow i m writing a widget and can t use a float as a resource value is this a memory leak in the x r xtdestroywidget are callbacks guaranteed to be called in the order registered why doesn t xtdestroywidget actually destroy the widget how do i query the user synchronously using xt how do i determine the name of an existing widget why do i get a baddrawable error drawing to xtwindow widget why do i get a badmatch error when calling xgetimage how can my application tell if it is being run under x how do i make a busy cursor while my application is computing how do i fork without hanging my parent x program can i make xt or xlib calls from a signal handler what are these xlib sequence lost errors how can my xt program handle socket pipe or file input how do i simulate a button press release event for a widget why doesn t anything appear when i run this simple program what is the difference between a screen and a screen can i use c with x motif xview where can i obtain alternate language bindings to x can xgetwindowattributes get a window s background pixel pixmap how do i create a transparent window why doesn t gxxor produce mathematically correct color values why does every color i allocate show up as black why can t my program get a standard colormap why does the pixmap i copy to the screen show up as garbage how do i check whether a window id is valid can i have two applications draw to the same window why can t my program work with tvtwm or swm how do i keep a window from being resized by the user how do i keep a window in the foreground at all times how do i make text and bitmaps blink in x how do i get a double click in xlib how do i render rotated text what is the x registry how do i reserve names if you have suggestions or corrections for any of these answers or any additional information please send them directly to uunet craft faq the information will be included in the next revision or possibly the one after that thanks for the many suggestions which haven t been incorporated yet this version of the faq is in the process of having r information replaced by r information this posting is intended to be distributed at approximately the beginning of each month new versions are archived on export lcs mit edu and are also available from mail server pit manager mit edu and archive server nic switch ch send help the information contained herein has been gathered from a variety of sources in many cases attribution has been lost if you would like to claim responsibility for a particular item please let me know conventions used below telephone numbers tend to be bell system unless otherwise noted prices on items are not included email addresses are those that work from the us x window system is a trademark of the massachusetts institute of technology other trademarks are the property of their respective owners note a script by george ferguson ferguson cs rochester edu to pretty print this faq is available from ugle unit no pub x contrib xfaq texinfo subject topic basic information sources and definitions subject what books and articles on x are good for beginners ken lee of synoptics klee synoptics com regularly posts to comp windows x and ba windows x a bibliography containing cites of all known reference books and how to manuals and also cites of selected technical articles on x and x programming it is ftp able as export lcs mit edu contrib xbibliography and gatekeeper dec com pub x contrib xbibliography here is an unordered set of the reference books and tutorials most useful for beginners most appear on that list comments are gathered from a variety of places and are unattributable asente paul j and swick ralph r x window system toolkit the complete programmer s guide and specification digital press the bible on xt a treasury of information excellent and invaluable distributed by digital press isbn order number ey e e dp and by prentice hall isbn also available through dec direct at digital the examples are on export lcs mit edu in contrib and on gatekeeper dec com in pub x contrib as asente swick examples tar z they were also posted to comp sources x as xt examples part jones oliver introduction to the x window system prentice hall isbn an excellent introduction to programming with xlib written with the programmer in mind this book includes many practical tips that are not found anywhere else this book is not as broad as the o reilly xlib tutorial but jones is an experienced x programmer and this shows in the quality and depth of the material in the book originally written for x r recent printings have included corrections and additions and current material young doug the x window system applications and programming with xt motif version prentice hall isbn the excellent tutorial x window system programming and applications with xt isbn updated for motif the examples are available on export the ones from the motif version are in ftp contrib young motif tar z young doug and john pew the x window system programming and applications with xt open look edition isbn x the tutorial rewritten for olit with new examples and drag drop information examples are on export in youg olit tar z and in you openwindows distribution in openwinhome share src olit olitbook heller dan motif programmers manual the th volume in the o reilly series covers motif application programming it s full of good examples with motif reference pages isbn the examples are available on uunet in comp sources x and nutshell archives a motif will be out soon scheifler robert and james gettys with jim flowers and david rosenthal x window system the complete reference to xlib x protocol icccm xlfd x version release third edition digital press the bible in its latest revision an enhanced version of x documentation by the authors of the xlib documentation this is the most complete published description of the x programming interface and x protocol it is the primary reference work and is not introductory tutorial documentation additional tutorial works will usually be needed by most new x programmers digital press order ey j e dp isbn nye adrian xlib programming manual volume and xlib reference manual volume o reilly and associates a superset of the mit x documentation the first volume is a tutorial with broad coverage of xlib and the second contains reference pages for xlib functions and many useful reference appendices both cover x r and r isbn volume and isbn volume nye adrian and tim o reilly x toolkit programming manual volume o reilly and associates the folks at o reilly give their comprehensive treatment to programming with the mit intrinsics r versions are now available as is a motif version volume m o reilly tim ed x toolkit reference manual volume o reilly and associates a professional reference manual for the mit x r and x r xt mansfield niall the x window system a user s guide addison wesley a tutorial introduction to using x now upgraded for r isbn quercia valerie and tim o reilly x window system user s guide o reilly and associates a tutorial introduction to using x isbn also available in r and motif flavors mui linda and eric pearce x window system administrator s guide for x r and r ora volume help for x users and administrators isbn prentice hall ordering is o reilly ordering is in addition check the x r and x r core distribution in doc tutorials for some useful papers and tutorials particularly the file answers txt late night s top ten x questions by dave lemke lemke ncd com and stuart marks smarks sun com answers other common questions and some of these here in more detail new r versions of the o reilly references not yet volume are now available a single volume programmer s supplement for r by david flanagan provides an overview of new r features it includes man pages for xlib xt and xmu isbn subject what courses on x and various x toolkits are available advanced computing environments periodically offers at least a two day introduction course contact susie karlson at for information at t offers training in xlib and in the xol set contact at t corporate education training for more info trainer in the usa bim educational services offers training in x administration and in programming with xt motif and open windows the courses are given near brussels info edu sunbim be voice fax communica software consultants offers three day hands on courses in x designed for the x window system developer and programmer contact chris clarkson telephone e mail communica communica oz au cora computer technologies offers several courses ghct offers a one week lecture lab course for programmmers designed by douglas young based on his book the x window system programming and applica tions with xt osf motif edition information brian stell or ghct brian sgi com ghg offers a range of courses on x and motif information or training info ghg hou tx us hands on learning has live training and self paced video workshops on topics such as using and or programming x xlib xm xt and widget writing information hewlett packard hpclass or contact your local hp center offers a day introduction to x a day xlib course a day xt and motif seminar and a day motif lab course integrated computer solutions inc offers several multi day hands on courses on x xt and the xaw and motif widget sets in particular information is available at and info ics com intelligent visual computing teaches several lab courses on site for motif and xview ivc is at or or at info ivc com iris computing laboratories offers five day xlib and xt courses info or info spectro com ixi limited offers regular x training courses for both programmers and non technical managers see also unipalm below learning tree international offers a four day course in x window system applications development including xlib and some information on motif for more info call in canada courses are offered in major north american cities also in london stockholm tokyo and elsewhere lurnix offers day type along courses on xt the course is being ported from xaw to xm information is available at in ca mitch trachtenberg and associates offers regular day lab courses on programming with osf motif usually in but not limited to cambridge ma info info mta com non standard logics requests nsl fr offers courses on programming with xlib motif and creating motif widgets osf educational services offers one day seminars and one week motif lab courses john a pew offers a day course on olit possibly based on his book on that subject sco scol info sco com offers training for its open desktop motif environment in the uk and europe software pundits offers a range of courses technology exchange offers a day xlib xt motif course telesoft is now offering a day plus day seminar on x and motif information bruce sherman bds telesoft com unipalm xtech offers osf s day motif course and a day overview on x information unipalm training at xtech unipalm co uk the university of edinburgh is developing a series of courses on x and related topics primarily for non profit making training in academia but also for commercial use information cliff booth unipalm ltd phone fax various other vendors are also beginning to offer x training usually specific to a proprietary toolkit or to xt and a proprietary widget set dec is offering xlib courses sun offers an xview course various universities are offering short x courses or overviews ucla dartmouth university of lowell university of canberra within australia uc berkeley extension will have a one week x motif class for programmers in san francisco starting on july the class will have a hands on lab for more information contact ucbx at among the best places to find courses are at the various unix conferences uniforum usenix unix expo xhibition the mit x technical conference the acm tutorial weeks c in addition the x consortium posts approximately quarterly a list of unendorsed speakers and consultants who can provide talks on a variety of x topics subject what conferences on x are coming up the xhibition x trade show and conference with tutorials panels presentations and vendor exhibits will be held at the san jose convention center june information xhibit ics com the tcl tk workshop will be held at ucal berkeley june information tcl cs berkeley edu the andrew technical conference and consortium annual meeting will be held june in pittsburgh information wilfred hansen cs cmu edu the european x user group holds an annual conference which typically includes includes paper presentations and a vendor exhibit exug x in the real world and multimedia will be held at the imperial college of science and technology london information exug demon co uk niall uit co uk or p whitehead cc ic ac uk fax the motif show is held in washington to coincide with the fedunix and the federal open systems conference usually december information motif fedunix org or paller fedunix org fax the mit x technical conference is typically held in january in boston registration information is available from registration expo lcs mit edu the xworld conference and exhibition includes tutorials panels presentations and vendor exhibits it is typically held in march in new york city information sigs publication group at other trade shows unixexpo uniforum siggraph show an increasing presence of x including tutorials and exhibits subject what x related public mailing lists are available the xpert mailing list is the general public mailing list on x maintained by the x consortium the mailings are gatewayed so xpert is almost identical to the comp windows x usenet newsgroup if you get comp windows x you don t need to be added to the xpert mailing list otherwise you can join the list to receive x information electronically it is best to find a local distribution perhaps someone within your company is already receiving the mailing as a last resort send mail to xpert request expo lcs mit edu with a valid return electronic address the xannounce mailing list carries major x announcements such as new releases including public patches from mit public reviews adoption of standards by the mit x consortium and conference announcements it does not carry advertisements source code patches or questions if you already receive the usenet news group comp windows x announce or the xpert mailing list you don t need to be added to the xannounce mailing list otherwise to subscribe send a request to xannounce request expo lcs mit edu note only redistribution addresses will be accepted for this list i e no personal addresses if you wish to receive xannounce yourself please contact your mail administrator to set up a local redistribution list and to put you on it comp windows x apps is not gatewayed to a mailing list in addition the x consortium sponsors these public lists bug clx clx bug reports and discussions x ada x and ada x d people interested in x and d graphics ximage people interested in image processing and x xvideo discussion of video extensions for x to subscribe to one of these lists assuming no one in your organization already receives it send mail to list request expo lcs mit edu with the subject line including the name of the list in caps and the request addition request in the body of the message be sure to give an address for your local distribution which is accessible from mit eddie mit edu a mailing list for topics related to open look is sponsored by greg pasquariello of unify corporation send to openlook request unify com or openlook request unify uunet uu net for information a mailing list for bugs in the publicly available version of xview source in particular is sponsored by sun send for information to xviewbug trackers request sun com a mailing list for topics related to motif is sponsored by kee hinckley of alfalfa software inc send to motif request alfalfa com for information this group is gatewayed to comp windows x motif a mailing list for topics related to the xpm pixmap format is sponsored by arnaud le hors of group bull send to xpm talk request sa inria fr for information a mailing list discussing interviews can be subscribed to by sending to interviews request interviews stanford edu a mailing list amiga x nic funet fi for topics related to the port of x to the amiga can be subscribed by sending to mailserver nic funet fi a message containing subject adding myself to amiga x subs amiga x your real name a mailing list discussing parcplace s formerly solbourne s oi object interface toolkit can be subscribed to at oi users requests bbn com a mailing list discussing multi threaded xlib can be subscribed to at mt xlib request xsoft xerox com subject how can i meet other x developers o reilly and associates sponsors a mailing list for the use of x user group organizers subscribe by sending to listserv ora com the message subscribe xgroups your internet address local area x user s groups are listed in issue of o reilly s x resource journal a list may also be available from xug ics com the french x user group is called afux and is based in sophia antipolis by cerics information can be obtained from miss vasseur or miss forest bp rue albert einstein valbonne cedex phone fax the european x user group was formed in to represent x users in europe it holds technical conferences at regular intervals the exug also publishes a regular newsletter which is distributed free of charge to members the exug also runs a email mailing list for members which is frequently used to address issues of european interest in x the exug can be contacted at p whitehead cc ic ac uk fax gxugiv is the german x user s group in vorbereitung in preparation being formed for x programmers and users it is associated with the exug all interested should contact olaf heimburger and at mcvax unido tub olaf subject what related faqs are available liam r e quin lee sq sq com posts a faq on open look to comp windows open look jan newmarch jan pandonia canberra edu au posts a faq on motif to comp windows x motif peter ware ware cis ohio state edu posts a faq for comp windows x intrinsics it is on export in contrib faq xt art mulder art cs ualberta ca posts to comp windows x a faq on maximizing the performance of x steve kotsopoulos steve ecf toronto edu posts to comp windows x a faq about using x on intel based unix systems the faq in alt binaries pictures contains information on viewing images with x and on massaging image formats the faq in comp mail mh gatewayed to mh users ics uci edu includes a section on xmh the faq in comp lang lisp contains information on several interface tools and toolkits there exists a pex phigs faq subject how do i ask a net question so as to maximize helpful responses when asking for help on the net or x mailing lists be sure to include all information about your setup and what you are doing the more specific you are the more likely someone will spot an error in what you are doing without all the details people who want to help you often have to guess if they are able to respond at all always mention what version of x you are using and where you got it from if your server came from a different source as the rest of your x system give details of that too give the machine type operating system and o s version for both the client and server machine it may also be appropriate to mention the window manager compiler and display hardware type you are using then tell exactly what you are doing exactly what happens and what you expected wanted to happen if it is a command that fails include the exact transcript of your session in the message if a program you wrote doesn t work the way you expect include as little of the source necessary just a small test case please for readers to reproduce the problem subject what publications discussing x are available the trade magazines unix world unix review computer language etc are publishing more articles on x two x specific publications include o reilly and associates publishes the x resource a practical journal of the x window system morris st a sebastapol ca editorial information adrian nye adrian ora com the x journal is started bi monthly publication september on a variety of x topics subscription information the x journal subscriber services dept xxx p o box denville nj usa editorial information editors topgun uunet uu net subject what are these common abbreviations acronyms xt the x toolkit intrinsics is a library layered on xlib which provides the functionality from which the widget sets are built an xt based program is an application which uses one of those widget sets and which uses intrinsics mechanisms to manipulate the widgets xmu the xmu library is a collection of miscellaneous utility functions useful in building various applications and widgets xaw the athena widget set is the mit implemented sample widget set distributed with x source xm the osf motif widget set from the open software foundation binary kits are available from many hardware vendors xhp xw the hewlett packard widget set was originally based on r but several sets of patches exist which bring it up to r as it is distributed on the x r tapes supplemental patches are available to use it with r r clx the common lisp x interface is a common lisp equivalent to xlib xdmcp the x display manager protocol provides a uniform mechanism for a display such as an x terminal to request login service from a remote host xlfd the x logical font description conventions describes a standard logical font description and conventions to be used by clients so that they can query and access those resources rtfm common expert speak meaning please locate and consult the relevant documentation read the forgotten manual utsl a common expression meaning take advantage of the fact that you aren t limited by a binary license use the source luke api application programmer interface the function calls etc in a programming library bdf bitmap distribution format a human readable format for uncompiled x fonts gui graphical user interface uil the user interface language part of osf motif which lets programmers specify a widget hierarchy in a simple outline form wcl the widget creation language a package which extends the understanding of the xt resource format such that a widget hierarchy and actions on the widgets can be specified through the resources file gil the file format put out by sun s openwindows developers guide uims user interface management system subject what is the icccm how do i write x friendly applications the inter client communication conventions manual is one of the official x consortium standards documents that define the x environment it describes the conventions that clients must observe to coexist peacefully with other clients sharing the same server if you are writing x clients you need to read and understand the icccm in particular the sections discussing the selection mechanism and the interaction between your client and the window manager get it either as part of the r distribution from mit in the later editions of the scheifler gettys x window system book as an appendix in the new version of o reilly s volume x protocol reference manual a version in old copies of their volume is obsolete the version in the digital press book is much more readable thanks to the efforts of digital press s editors to improve the english and the presentation from david rosenthal the icccm was updated for r updates are published in o reilly s programmer s supplement for release the complete document is on the r tapes alternate definition the icccm is generally the m in rtfm and is the most important of the least read x documents subject what is the x consortium and how do i join the mit x consortium was formed in january of to further the development of the x window system and has as its major goal the promotion of cooperation within the computer industry in the creation of standard software interfaces at all layers in the x window system environment mit s role is to provide the vendor neutral architectural and administrative leadership required to make this work membership in the consortium open to any organization there are two categories of membership member for large organizations and affiliate for smaller organizations most of the consortium s activities take place via electronic mail with meetings when required as designs and specifications take shape interest groups are formed from experts in the participating organizations typically a small multi organization architecture team leads the design with others acting as close observers and reviewers once a complete specification is produced it may be submitted for formal technical review by the consortium as a proposed standard the standards process typically includes public review outside the consortium and a demonstration of proof of concept your involvement in the public review process or as a member or affiliate of the consortium is welcomed write to bob scheifler mit x consortium laboratory for computer science technology square cambridge ma for complete information see the xconsortium man page from the x r distribution from which this information is adapted subject just what are open look and motif open look and motif are two graphical user interfaces guis open look was developed by sun with help from at t and many industry reviewers motif was developed by the open software foundation osf with input from many osf members open look is primarily a user interface specification and style guide there are several toolkits which can be used to produce open look applications motif includes an api specification the only sanctioned motif toolkit is the one from osf however there are other toolkits which can be used to produce programs which look and behave like osf motif one of these parcplace s formerly solbourne s oi is a virtual toolkit which provides objects in the style of open look and motif at the user s choice open look gui is also the name of a product from at t comprising their open look intrinsics toolkit and a variety of applications thanks to ian darwin ian sq com subject just what is openwindows open windows is a sun product that encompasses a window system that combines a news and x compliant server x news a user interface specification open look and a series of toolkits that implement it including the sunview like xview and the xt based olit xlib and xt implementations and a number of utilities olwm window manager filemgr shelltool etc thanks to frank greco fgreco govt shearson com subject just what is decwindows decwindows is a dec product that encompasses an x server the xui toolkit including the dwt widget set and uil xlib and xt implementations a session manager and a number of utilities dxwm window manager dxcalendar dxpsview etc at some point motif flavors of the toolkit and applications will be shipped subject what is pex pex is the phigs extension to x phigs stands for programmer s hierarchical interactive graphics system and is essentially a library of functions that simplifies the creation and manipulation of d graphics many platforms are capable of performing in hardware the computations involved in rendering d objects the extension allows the client phigs in this case to take advantage of the specialized hardware for d graphics sun microsystems is currently contracted to develop a freely redistributable copyright similar to the current x copyright sample implementation source and documentation are available in the r release several vendors are currently selling independently developed pex servers for their workstations and x terminals last modified subject what is low bandwidth x lbx xremote ppp slip cslip there are several options for using x over serial lines slip serial line ip this is both a mechanism and a protocol for sending ip packets over point to point serial links it has been around for several years and implementations are available for many of the major tcp ip implementations most x terminal vendors supply this as a checkoff item although nobody really ever uses it since it is horribly slow the tcp ip headers add bytes per packet and the tcp ip encoding of the x protocol is rather verbose rightfully so it is optimized for packing and unpacking over high speed links cslip compressed header slip this is a variant of slip that compresses the bytes of tcp ip headers down to about or bytes it still doesn t do anything about reencoding the x protocol modems that do compression can help but they increase packet latency it takes time to dribble the uncompressed data through typical serial interfaces plus the compression assembly time ppp point to point protocol this is an emerging standard for point to point links over serial lines that has a more complete set of option negotiation than slip a growing number of people see the combination of ppp for the serial line management and cslip for the header compression as becoming common for running normal tcp ip protocols over serial lines running raw x over the wire still needs compression somewhere to make it usable xremote this is the name of both a protocol and set of products originally developed by ncd for squeezing the x protocol over serial lines in addition to using a low level transport mechanism similar to ppp cslip xremote removes redundancies in the x protocol by sending deltas against previous packets and using lzw to compress the entire data stream this work is done by either a pseudo x server or proxy running on the host or in a terminal server there are several advantages to doing compression outside the modem you don t have to have compressing modems in there if you wouldn t otherwise be using them e g if you were going to be directly connected and it reduces the i o overhead by cutting down on the number of bytes that have to cross the serial interface and in addition to the effects of it reduces the latency in delivering packets by not requiring the modem to buffer up the data waiting for blocks to compress lbx low bandwidth x this is an x consortium project that is working on a standard for this area it is being chaired by ncd and xerox and is using ncd s xremote protocol as a stepping stone in developing the new protocol lbx will go beyond xremote by adding proxy caching of commonly used information e g connection setup data large window properties font metrics keymaps etc and a more efficient encoding of the x protocol the hope is to have a standard ready for public review in the first half of next year and a sample implementation available in r additional technical information about how xremote works and a few notes on how lbx might be different are available via anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu in contrib in the following files xremote slides ps slides describing xremote xremote lbx diffs ps more slides describing some of lbx information provided by jim fulton jim ncd com there is also a set of slides on export from jim fulton s talk at the th mit x technical conference subject topic using x in day to day life subject what are all these different window managers the window manager in x is just another client it is not part of the x window system although it enjoys special privileges and so there is no single window manager instead there are many which support different ways for the user to interact with windows and different styles of window layout decoration and keyboard and colormap focus in approximate chronological order generally the more recent ones are more conformant with the icccm wm this simple title bar window manager was phased out in r or r uwm the universal window manager is still popular for its speed although it is very outdated moved to contrib on the r tape twm old tom s window manager was among the first non mit window managers and offered the user a great deal of customization options in a re parenting window manager awm the ardent window manager remains a hotbed for hackers and offers some features dynamic menus not found on more current window managers cwm cwm is part of the andrew system rtl siemen s window manager tiles windows so that they don t overlap and resizes the window with the focus to its preferred size dxwm digital s dxwm is part of the decwindows offering hpwm hp s window manager offers a d look it is a precursor of mwm mwm the motif window manager is part of the osf motif toolkit tekwm tektronix s window manager offering olwm sun olwm implements the open look gui and some of the style guide functionality olwm at t ditto gwm bull s generic window manager emulates others with a built in lisp interpreter version h is on the r contrib tape n is on avahi inria fr and export lcs mit edu m swm the sigma window manager is on the r tape pswm sun s postscript based pswm is part of the openwindows release swm solbourne s swm is based on the oi toolkit and offers multiple gui support and also a panned virtual window configuration information comes from the resources file twm new mit s new tab window manager from the r tape is a reworked twm and is the basis for several derivatives including the one on the r tape vtwm vtwm offers some of the virtual desktop features of swm with a single root window implementation it is based on the r twm and is available on archive servers a new version vtwm is based on r and is available from export tvtwm tom s virtual tab window manager is also based on the r twm and provides a virtual desktop modeled on the virtual root window of swm it is available on archive servers olvwm the vtwm style virtual desktop added to sun s olwm it is available on archive servers version is on export mvwm the vtwm style virtual desktop added to osf s mwm a beta version is floating around most recently from suresh unipalm co uk but requires a source license to osf motif ncdwm the window manager local to ncd terminals offers an mwm look xdswm the window manager local to visual technology s terminals ctwm claude lecommandeur s lecom sic epfl ch modification of the r twm offers virtual screens in the fashion of hp vuewm source is on export version also offers the window overview used in vtwm and tvtwm vuewm hp s mwm based window manager offers configurable workspaces dwm sgi s enhanced mwm piewm this version of tvtwm offers pie menus subject why does my x session exit when i kill my window manager sic it needn t what is probably happening is that you are running your window manager as the last job in your xsession or xinitrc file your x session runs only as long as the last job is running and so killing your window manager is equivalent to logging out instead run the window manager in the background and as the last job instead invoke something safe like exec xterm name login rv iconic or any special client of your devising which exits on some user action your x session will continue until you explicitly logout of this window whether or not you kill or restart your window manager subject can i save the state of my x session like toolplaces does although no known window manager directly supports such a feature which may be equivalent to writing out a xinitrc or xsession file naming the geometry and wm command of each application but olvwm may have something close there is a contributed application which does much of what you are looking for although it is not as complete as the sunview program toolplaces look for the application xplaces on an archive server near you there are several versions of this program floating around look for a recent vintage some new pseudo session managers such as hp s vuewm provide for the saving of sessions including information on the geometry of currently running applications and the resource database bjxrn stabell bjoerns staff cs uit no subject how do i use another window manager with dec s session manager dec s session manager will start dxwm up by default to override this add to your xdefaults file something like this line naming the full pathname sm windowmanagername wherever usr bin x your favorite wm subject how do i change the keyboard auto repeat rate you can turn auto repeat on or off by using xset r on off the x protocol however doesn t provide for varying the auto repeat rate which is a capability not supported by all systems some servers running on systems that support this however may provide command line flags to set the rate at start up time if you have control over server start up see the man pages for xinit and xdm you can invoke the server with the chosen settings for example you can start the xsun server from mit with the options ar ar to reduce the sensitivity of the keyboard subject how do i remap the keys on my keyboard to produce a string there is no method of arranging for a particular string to be produced when you press a particular key the xmodmap client which is useful for moving your ctrl and esc keys to useful places just rearranges keys and does not do macro expansion some few clients including xterm and several x based editors accept a translation resource such as xterm vt translations override key f string setenv display unix which permits the shorthand f to be pressed to reset the display locally within an xterm it takes effect for new xterm clients to include control characters in the string use nnn where nnn is the octal encoding of the control character you want to include window managers which could provide this facility do not yet nor has a special remapper client been made available david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net just the faqs ma am joe friday david b lewis temporarily at but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	comp windows x frequently asked questions faq archive name x faq part last modified subject how do i make a screendump or print my application the xwd client in the x distributions can be used to select a window or the background it produces an xwd format file of the image of that window the file can be post processed into something useful or printed with the xpr client and your local printing mechanism you can use this command csh sleep xwd root output xwd and then spend seconds or so setting up your screen the entire current display will be saved into the file output xwd note that xwd also has an undocumented before r id flag for specifying the window id on the command line there are also unofficial patches on export to xwd for specifying the delay and the portion of the screen to capture two publicly available programs which allow interactive definition of arbitrary portions of the display and built in delays are asnap and xgrabsc there are several versions of xgrabsc version available on export is the most recent xsnap includes some asnap features and supersedes it it also renders xpm output version unknown it is available on export or avahi inria fr see xsnap pl tar z a screen dump and merge edit program combining features of xwd and xpr is available from vernam cs uwm edu as xdump tar z information soft eng cs uwm edu xprint by alberto accomazzi alberto cfa harvard edu is available from cfa in xprint export tar z to post process the xwd output of some of these tools you can use xpr which is part of the x distribution also on several archives are xwd ps and xtops which produce encapsulated postscript with trimmings suitable for use in presentations see export lcs mit edu contrib xwd ps tar z and contrib imagemagick tar z also useful is the pbmplus package on many archive servers and the xim package contains level color postscript output the xv program can grab a portion of the x display manipulate it and save it in one of the available formats imagemagick has similar capabilities also bristol technology info bristol com offers xprinter an xlib api for postscript and pcl printers a demo is on ftp uu net in vendor bristol xprinter colorsoft offers openprint package includes a screen capture facility image processing and support for postscript and non postscript printers some vendors implementations of x e g decwindows and openwindows include session managers or other desktop programs which include print portion of screen or take a snapshot options some platforms also have tools which can be used to grab the frame buffer directly the sun systems for example have a screendump program which produces a sun raster file some x terminals have local screen dump utilities to write postscript to a local serial printer some vendors implementations of lpr e g sony include direct support for printing xwd files but you ll typically need some other package to massage the output into a useful format which you can get to the printer subject how do i make a color postscript screendump of the x display if you need color postscript in particular you can grab the screen image using a program which can produce color postscript such as xgrabsc and xv grab the screen image using xwd and post process xwd into color ps you can do this using xwd ps or the xtops program from the imagemagick distribution the pbmplus package is also good for this as is the xim package subject how do i make a screendump including the x cursor this can t be done unless the x server has been extended consider instead a system dependent mechanism for e g capturing the frame buffer subject how do i convert view mac tiff gif sun pict img fax images in x the likeliest program is an incarnation of jef poskanzer s useful portable bitmap toolkit which includes a number of programs for converting among various image formats it includes support for many types of bitmaps gray scale images and full color images pbmplus has been updated recently the most recent version is on export in contrib pbmplus dec tar z another tool is san diego supercomputing center s imtools imconv in particular which packages the functionality of pbm into a single binary it s available anonymous ftp from sdsc edu useful for viewing some image formats is jim frost s xloadimage a version of which is in the r directory contrib clients xloadimage there are later versions available including contrib xloadimage tar z on export graeme gill s updates to an earlier version of xloadimage are also on export see xli readme and xli tar z uu version was released xv x image viewer written by bradley cis upenn edu john bradley can read and display pictures in sun raster pgm pbm ppm x bitmap tiff gif and jpeg it can manipulate on the images adjust color intensity contrast aspect ratio crop it can save images in all of the aforementioned formats plus postscript it can grab a portion of the x display manipulate on it and save it in one of the available formats the program was updated see the file contrib xv tar z on export lcs mit edu the fuzzy pixmap manipulation by michael mauldin mlm nl cs cmu edu conversion and manipulation package similar to pbmplus version available via ftp as nl cs cmu edu usr mlm ftp fbm tar z uunet uu net pub fbm tar z and ucsd edu graphics fbm tar z the img software set by paul raveling raveling venera isi edu reads and writes its own image format displays on an x screen and does some image manipulations version is available via ftp on expo lcs mit edu as contrib img tar z along with large collection of color images the utah rle toolkit is a conversion and manipulation package similar to pbmplus available via ftp as cs utah edu pub urt weedeater math yale edu pub urt and freebie engin umich edu pub urt xim the x image manipulator by philip thompson does essential interactive displaying editing filtering and converting of images there is a version in the x r contrib area but a more recent version using r and motif is available from gis mit edu xim reads writes gif xwd xbm tiff rle xim writes level eps and other formats and also has a library and command line utilities for building your own applications imagemagick by cristy dupont com can be retrieved from export s contrib area it is a collection of utilities to transform and display images on any x server the tool uses the miff format filters to and from miff from other popular formats ppm tiff gif sun raster etc are included xtiff is a tool for viewing a tiff file in an x window it was written to handle as many different kinds of tiff files as possible while remaining simple portable and efficient xtiff illustrates some common problems with building pixmaps and using different visual classes it is distributed as part of sam leffler s libtiff package and it is also available on export lcs mit edu uunet uu net and comp sources x dbs decwrl dec com xtiff was announced in it includes xlib and xt versions a version of lee iverson s leei mcrcim mcgill edu image viewing tool is available as contrib vimage tar z on export lcs mit edu the package also includes an imageviewport widget and a filedialog widget some material from larry carroll larryc poe jpl nasa gov subject how can i change the titlebar of my xterm window the solution involves sending an escape sequence to xterm which will cause it to update the property which the window manager relies upon for the string which appears in the window titlebar a solution is as easy as typing this in an xterm running a shell echo esc text g where esc is the escape key text is the string you wish to have displayed and g is a control g the bel character here is a more complicated csh alias which changes the titlebar to the current working directory when you change directories alias newcd cd echo n esc cwd g the digit in these strings indicates to xterm that it should change only the title of the window to change both the title and the name used in the icon use the digit instead and use to change only the icon name note another way to do this which prevents an incorrect display of the local directory if a modified cd is used in a subshell is to wrap the escape sequences into the ps prompt itself note on an ibm rs is may be necessary to begin the sequence with a v subject where can i find the xterm control sequences the best source of such information is in your r sources in the file ctlseqs ms a postscript version is in mit hardcopy clients ctlseqs ps z o reilly s volume the x user s guide includes an r version of the control sequences the standard volume will be available and a motif version of the book is available now the current r guide includes an outdated version of the control sequences other good sources of information include the r version of that document and also the file in the r sources called mit clients xterm ctlseq txt a compilation put together by skip montanaro ge cr d listing the vt sequences it dates from r but is fairly accurate a hardcopy version was published in the december xnextevent the xug newsletter in a pinch a vt manual will do last updated subject why does the r xterm et al fail against the r server subject how can i use characters above ascii in xterm in order to use special characters such as the o umlaut you need to stty pass but also to use a charcell iso font such as xterm font medium r normal c iso xterm boldfont bold r normal c iso the family is intentionally unspecified in this example in addition you may want to set this in your shell setenv lc ctype iso for a given character above you can determine the key to use with the alt modifier by finding the equivalent character below try using man ascii for example o umlaut v is alt v and the section character is alt thanks to greg holmberg greg thirdi uunet uu net and stephen gildea gildea expo lcs mit edu subject why are my xterm menus so small you are probably setting the geometry small accidentally if you give a resource specification like this xterm geometry x then you are asking for all widgets under xterm to have their geometry set to x for the main window this is ok as it uses characters for its size but its popup menus don t they are in pixels and show up small to set only the terminal widget to have the specified geometry name it explicitly xterm vt geometry x subject how can i print the current selection you could paste it into an xterm after executing the lpr command however a program by richard hesketh rlh ukc ac uk specifically for manipulating the selection will help e g xselection primary lpr finds the primary selection and prints it this command can be placed in a window manager menu or in shell scripts xselection also permits the setting of the selection and other properties a version is on export also available is ria ccs uwo ca pub xget selection tar z which can be adapted to do this subject how does xt use environment variables in loading resources you can use several environment variables to control how resources are loaded for your xt based programs xfilesearchpath xuserfilesearchpath and xapplresdir these environment variables control where xt looks for application defaults files as an application is initializing xt loads at most one app defaults file from the path defined in xfilesearchpath and another from the path defined in xuserfilesearchpath set xfilesearchpath if software is installed on your system in such a way that app defaults files appear in several different directory hierarchies suppose for example that you are running sun s open windows and you also have some r x applications installed in usr lib x app defaults you could set a value like this for xfilesearchpath and it would cause xt to look up app defaults files in both usr lib x and usr openwin lib or wherever your openwinhome is located setenv xfilesearchpath usr lib x t n openwinhome lib t n the value of this environment variable is a colon separated list of pathnames the pathnames contain replacement characters as follows see xtresolvepathname n the value of the filename parameter or the application s class name t the value of the file type in this case the literal string app defaults c customization resource r only s suffix none for app defaults l language locale and codeset e g ja jp euc l language part of l e g ja t the territory part of the display s language string c the codeset part of the display s language string let s take apart the example suppose the application s class name is myterm also suppose open windows is installed in usr openwin notice the example omits locale specific lookup usr lib x t n means usr lib x app defaults myterm openwinhome lib t n means usr openwin lib app defaults myterm as the application initializes xt tries to open both of the above app defaults files in the order shown as soon as it finds one it reads it and uses it and stops looking for others the effect of this path is to search first in usr lib x then in usr openwin let s consider another example this time let s set xuserfilesearchpath so it looks for the file myterm ad in the current working directory then for myterm in the directory app defaults setenv xuserfilesearchpath n ad home app defaults n the first path in the list expands to myterm ad the second expands to home app defaults myterm this is a convenient setting for debugging because it follows the imake convention of naming the app defaults file myterm ad in the application s source directory so you can run the application from the directory in which you are working and still have the resources loaded properly note when looking for app default files with xuserfilesearchpath for some bizarre reason neither the type nor file suffix is defined so t and s are useless with r there s another twist you may specify a customization resource value for example you might run the myterm application like this myterm xrm customization color if one of your pathname specifications had the value usr lib x t n c then the expanded pathname would be usr lib x app defaults myterm color because the c substitution character takes on the value of the customization resource the default xfilesearchpath compiled into xt is usr lib x l t n c r usr lib x l t n c r usr lib x t n c r usr lib x l t n usr lib x l t n usr lib x t n note some sites replace usr lib x with a projectroot in this batch of default settings the default xuserfilesearchpath also compiled into xt is root l n c r root l n c r root n c r root l n root l n root n root is either the value of xapplresdir or the user s home directory if xapplresdir is not set if you set xuserfilesearchpath to some value other than the default xt ignores xapplresdir altogether notice that the quick and dirty way of making your application find your app defaults file in your current working directory is to set xapplresdir to a single dot in r all this machinery worked differently for r compatibilty many people set their xapplresdir value to a dot followed by a slash thanks to oliver jones oj world std com subject how to i have the r xdm put a picture behind the log in window the answer lies in changing xdm s xrdb resource in the xdm config file to run a program to change the background before loading the resources for example your usr lib x xdm xdm config file may add the line displaymanager authorize false to permit unrestricted access to the display before log in beware and also displaymanager xrdb usr lib x xdm new xrdb where that file does something for all connections along the lines of bin sh comes in with arguments display load usr lib x xdm xresources usr bin x xsetroot display bitmap usr lib x xdm new bitmap usr bin x xrdb substitute xloadimage or xv for xsetroot to taste note that this is a general hack that can be used to invoke a console window or any other client thanks to jay bourland jayb cauchy stanford edu subject why isn t my path set when xdm runs my xsession file when xdm runs your xsession it doesn t source your cshrc or login files you can set the path explicitly as you normally could for any sh script or you can place all environment setting statements in a separate file and source it from both the xsession file and your shell configuration file or if you set your path in your cshrc file the normal place you can make your xsession have path set simply by making it a csh script i e by starting your xsession file off with bin csh if this doesn t work also try starting off with bin sh reset path path csh c echo path export path subject how do i keep my display when i rlogin to another machine there are several ways to avoid having to do a setenv display whenever you log in to another networked unix machine running x one solution is to use the clients xrsh on the r contrib tape it includes xrsh a script to start an x application on remote machine and xrlogin a script to start a local xterm running rlogin to a remote machine a more recent version is on export in xrsh shar one solution is to use the xrlogin program from der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu you can ftp caveat emptor versions from in x xrlogin c and x xrlogind c the program packages up term and display into a single string which is stuffed into term rlogin then propagates term normally your cshrc on the remote machine should contain eval xrlogind where xrlogind is a program that checks term and if it is of the special format it recognizes unpacks it and spits out setenv and unsetenv commands to recreate the environment variables in addition if all you need to do is start a remote x process on another host and you find rsh host n usr bin x xterm display display too simple display must have your real hostname then this version of xrsh can be used to start up remote x processes the equivalent usage would be xrsh host xterm bin sh start an x process on another host date dec gmt from chris torek chris mimsy umd edu rsh host n setenv display display exec dev null dev null an improved version rxcmd suggested by john robinson jr bbn com generalized for sh ksh by keith boyer keith cis ohio state edu but they put the rcmd in s which left zombies again this script combines the best of both case in echo usage host x cmd args case shell in csh host shift xhost host dev null rsh host n setenv term xterm setenv display hostname exec dev null dev null sh host shift xhost host dev null rsh host n term xterm export term display hostname export display ld library path usr x lib export ld library path path path usr x bin usr bin x usr local bin export path exec dev null dev null esac esac subject how can i design my own font one way is to use the bitmap client or some other bitmap editor e g sun s icon editor tool post processed with pbmplus to design the individual characters and then to do some large amount of post processing to concatenate them into the bdf format see ollie jones s article in the november x journal for more information the r contrib area in fonts utils and in clients xtroff contained a number of useful utilities including some to convert between bdf font format and a simple character format which can be edited with any text editor an easier way is to use the xfed client to modify an existing font a version is on the r or r x r contrib tape in contrib clients xfed xfed is available for anonymous ftp on ftp informatik uni dortmund de possibly as file pub windows x diverse x sourcen xfed tar z it can produce bdf format fonts which can be compiled for a variety of x servers the xfedor client from group bull permits creation of bitmaps cursors xpm pixmaps and fonts binaries for common machines are on avahi inria fr in pub in addition the sources an old xlib implementation have been placed in export contrib if you are a metafont user you can use mftobdf from the seetex distribution to convert pk gf and pxl fonts to bdf format the distribution is on ftp cs colorado edu and on export lcs mit edu the gnu package fontutils tar z on prep ai mit edu includes xbfe a font editor and a number of utilities for massaging font formats the o reilly x resource issue contains an article on using these tools to modify a font fonts can be resized with hiroto kagotani s bdfresize a new version is in ftp cs titech ac jp x contrib subject why does adding a font to the server not work sic after you have built the font using your system s font compiler installed it in some directory and run mkfontdir or your system s equivalent e g bldfamily for openwindows in that directory be sure to use xset fp dir to add that full path name to the server s font path or if the directory is already in the path use xset fp rehash so that the new fonts in that directory are actually found it is this last step that you re probably leaving out you can also use xset q to make sure that that directory is in the path sometimes your xset fp dir command fails with a badvalue error x error of failed request badvalue integer parameter out of range for operation major opcode of failed request x setfontpath this means the x server cannot find or read your font directory or that your directory does not look like a font directory to the server the mention of an integer parameter in the message is spurious is the font directory you re specifying readable from the server s file system remember it s the server not the client which interprets your font directory trouble in this area is especially likely when you issue an xset command with shell metacharacters in it e g xset fp myfonts and the server is an x terminal or managed by xdm is the directory really a font directory if you re running an mit server or most varieties of vendor servers look in the directory for the file fonts dir if you can t find that file run mkfontdir if you re running openwindows look for the file families list if you can t find it run bldfamily if you re in a site where some people run x rn servers and others run a proprietary server with nonstandard font formats openwindows for example make sure the font directory is right for the server you re using hint if the directory contains pcf and or snf files it won t work for open windows if the directory contains ff and or fb files it won t work for x rn thanks to der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu and to oliver jones oj pictel com subject how do i convert a snf font back to bdf font a tool called snftobdf is part of the bdftools package which is available from export lcs mit edu contrib bdftools tar z and from crl nmsu edu pub misc bdftools tar z subject what is a general method of getting a font in usable format der mouse s getbdf is one solution it connects to a server and produces a bdf file for any font the server is willing to let it it can be used as an anything to bdf converter but requires access to a server that can understand the font file thus is both more and less powerful than other tools such as snftobdf getbdf is on in x getbdf c or available via mail from mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu in addition the r program fstobdf can produce bdf for any font that the r server has access to subject how do i use decwindows fonts on my non decwindows server the decwindows fonts typically don t exist on a non dec installation but rewrite rules can be used to alias fonts used by decwindows applications to standard mit fonts of similar characteristics and size pick up the file contrib decwindows on x r font aliases from export lcs mit edu this file is for a standard mit r server it can also serve as a starting point for creating a similar aliases file for the open windows server or other servers which do not use the mit font scheme subject how do i add bdf fonts to my decwindows server the format of fonts preferred by dec s x server is the pcf format you can produce this compiled format from the bdf format by using dec s dxfc font compiler note that the dec servers can also use raw bdf fonts with a performance hit subject how can i set backgroundpixmap in a defaults file what is xpm i want to be able to do something like this xclock backgroundpixmap usr include x bitmaps rootweave you can t do this the backgroundpixmap resource is a pixmap of the same depth as the screen not a bitmap which is a pixmap of depth because of this writing a generic string to pixmap converter is impossible since there is no accepted convention for a file format for pixmaps therefore neither the x toolkit or the athena widget set define a string to pixmap converter because there is no converter you cannot specify this value as a resource the athena widget set does define a string to bitmap converter for use in many of its widgets however courtesy chris d peterson now kit ics com however a specific converter which encapsulates much of the functionality of the xloadimage package by jim frost was posted by sebastian wangnick basti unido informatik uni dortmund de it permits loading of a number of image formats as a pixmap the leading general purpose format for pixmaps is the xpm format used by groupe bull in several of its programs including the gwm window manager by at t in its olpixmap editor and by ics in its interface builder xpm distribution available on export as contrib xpm tar z includes read write routines which can easily be adapted to converters by new widgets which want to allow specification of pixmap resources in the above manner see information on the xpm talk mailing list above xpm f was announced in and is available from export lcs mit edu and avahi inria fr an older version is on the r contrib tape a set of xpm icons collected by anthony thyssen anthony kurango cit gu edu au is on export in contrib aicons subject why can t i override translations only the first item works you probably have an extra space after the specification of the first item like this basic text translations override ctrl key a beginning of line n ctrl key e end of line extra space the newline after that space is ending the translation definition thanks to timothy j horton subject how can i have xclock or oclock show different timezones one solution is xchron in volume of comp sources x which can show the time for timezones other than the local one alternatively you can probably set the timezone in the shell from which you invoke the xclock or oclock or use a script similar to this bin sh tz pst pdt xclock name san luis obispo ca dev null tz est edt xclock name king of prussia pa dev null subject i have xmh but it doesn t work where can i get mh the xmh mail reader requires the rand mh mail message handling system which is not part of the unix software distribution for many machines a list of various ftp uucp e mail and us mail sites for both xmh and mh is given in the monthly mh faq one source is ics uci edu in the file pub mh mh tar z if you do not receive the comp mail mh newsgroup or the mh users mailing list you can request a copy of the faq which also includes a section on xmh by sending mail to mail server pit manager mit edu containing the request send usenet news answers mh faq subject why am i suddenly unable to connect to my sun x server after a seemingly random amount of time after the x server has been started no other clients are able to connect to it the default cron cleanup jobs supplied by sun for at least delete old unreferenced files from tmp including tmp x unix which contains the socket descriptor used by x the solution is to add type s to the find exclusion in the cron job subject why don t the r pex demos work on my mono screen the r sample server implementation works only on color screens sorry subject how do i get my sun type keyboard fully supported by xsun many users wants the num lock key to light the num lock led and have the appropriate effect on the numeric keypad the xsun server as distributed by mit doesn t do this but there are two different patches available the first patch is written by jonathan lemon and fixes the num lock related problems it is available from export lcs mit edu in the file contrib xsun r numlock patch z the second is written by martin forssen and fixes the num lock and compose keys and adds support for the different national keyboard layouts for type and type keyboards this patch is available from export lcs mit edu in contrib sunkbd tar z or via email from maf dtek chalmers se thanks to martin forssen maf dtek chalmers se or maf math chalmers se a set of patches by william bailey dbgwab arco com was posted to newsgroups to provide support for the type keyboard subject how do i report bugs in x generally report bugs you find to the organization that supplied you with the x window system if you received the r source distribution directly from mit please read the file mit bug report for instructions look in mit doc bugs bug report in r thanks to stephen gildea gildea expo lcs mit edu subject why do i get warning widget class version mismatch this error which typically goes on to say widget vs intrinsics indicates that the header files you included when building your program didn t match the header files that the xt library you re linking against was built with check your i include path and l link path to be sure however the problem also occurs when linking against a version of the x r xt library before patch the version number was wrong some sun ow systems in particular were shipped with the flawed version of the library and applications which link against the library typically give the warnings you have seen subject where can i find a dictionary server for xwebster webster s still owns the copyright to the on line copies of webster s dictionary which are found at various university sites after it became aware that these sites were then acting as servers for other sites running xwebster and gnuemacs webster it asked that server sites close off external access the next machine apparently is also licensed to have the dictionary a webster daemon for next machines is available from iuvax cs indiana edu in pub webster next unless you want to get a legal on line copy yourself or can find a site which can grant you access you are probably out of luck however if you are a legitimate site you ll want to pick up the latest xwebster as is on export contrib xwebster tar z the file xwebster readme includes discussions of the availability illegality and non availability of dictionary servers courtesy steve umiacs umd edu steve miller and mayer hplabs hp com niels mayer subject topic obtaining x and related software and hardware subject is x public domain software no the x software is copyrighted by various institutions and is not public domain which has a specific legal meaning however the x distribution is available for free and can be redistributed without fee contributed software though may be placed in the public domain by individual authors subject how compatible are x r r and r what changes are there the release notes for each mit release of x specify the changes from the previous release the x consortium tries very hard to maintain compatibility across releases in the few places where incompatible changes were necessary details are given in the release notes each x distribution site on the network also offers the release notes that go with the release they offer the file typically can be found at the top of the distribution tree stephen gildea the comp windows x intrinsics faq xt lists xt differences among these versions subject where can i get x r source and or binaries information about mit s distribution of the sources on bpi and qic tape and its distribution of hardcopy of the documents is available from software center technology licensing office massachusetts institute of technology carleton street room e cambridge ma phone you will need about mb of disk space to hold all of core and mb to hold the contrib software donated by individuals and companies please use a site that is close to you in the network note that the release notes are generally available separately in the same directory the notes list changes from previous versions of x and offer a guide to the distribution north america anonymous ftp california gatekeeper dec com pub x r california soda berkeley edu pub x r indiana mordred cs purdue edu pub x r maryland ftp brl mil pub x r good for milnet sites massachusetts crl dec com pub x r massachusetts export lcs mit edu pub r crl dec com is better michigan merit edu pub x r missouri wuarchive wustl edu packages x r montana ftp cs montana edu pub x v r new mexico pprg eece unm edu pub dist x r new york azure acsu buffalo edu pub x r north carolina cs duke edu dist sources x r ohio ftp cis ohio state edu pub x v r ontario ftp cs utoronto ca pub x r washington dc x r a uu net x r washington dc x r b uu net x r europe middle east australia anonymous ftp australia munnari oz au x v r denmark freja diku dk pub x r united kingdom src doc ic ac uk graphics x v r hpb mcc ac uk pub x r finland nic funet fi pub x r france nuri inria fr x x r germany ftp germany eu net pub x x r israel cs huji ac il pub x r italy ghost sm dsi unimi it pub x r netherlands archive eu net windows x r norway ugle unit no pub x r norway nac no pub x r switzerland nic switch ch software x r japan anonymous ftp kanagawa sh wide ad jp x r kwansai ftp ics osaka u ac jp x r kyushu wnoc fuk wide ad jp x r tisn utsun s u tokyo ac jp x r tokyo kerr iwanami co jp x r tokyo scslwide sony co jp pub x r uucp uunet for uunet customers x r decwrl existing neighbors only pub x r osu cis x v r not online until sept utai existing neighbors only ftp pub x r hp nl netherlands only uucp pub windows x r nfs missouri wuarchive wustl edu archive packages x r mount point archive afs pennsylvania afs grand central org pub x r niftp hhcp cpf fcp united kingdom uk ac ic doc src x v r user guest anon ftam united kingdom janet x v r internet ixi acsnet australia munnari oz fetchfile x v r please fetch only one file at a time after checking that a copy is not available at a closer site updated for contrib anyone in europe can get a copy of the mit x v r distribution including the core and contributed software and all official patches free of charge the only requirement is to agree to return the tapes or equivalent new tapes only qic and tk format cartridges can be provided contact jamie watson adasoft ag nesslerenweg wabern switzerland tel or fax jw adasoft ch uk sites can obtain x through the ukuug software distribution service from the department of computing imperial college london in several tape formats you may also obtain the source via janet and therefore pss using niftp host uk ac ic doc src name guest password your email address queries should be directed to lee mcloughlin or to info server doc ic ac uk or ukuug soft uk ac ic doc send a subject line of wanted also offered are copies of comp sources x the export lcs mit edu contrib and doc areas and most other announced freely distributable packages x r and x r source along with x r contrib code prebuilt x binaries for major platforms and source code examples from o reilly s books is available on an iso format cd rom from o reilly associates as of x r source is available on iso format cd rom for members of the japan unix society from hiroaki obata obata jrd dec com x r source along with gnu source the comp sources x archives and sparc binaries is available on an iso format cd rom from pdq software or robert a bruce rab sprite berkeley edu x r source is available from automata design associates various users groups e g sug offer x sources cheaply typically on cd rom source for the andrew user interface system and binaries for common systems are available on cd rom information info andrew requests andrew cmu edu fax binaries for x r with shared libx and libxmu for a ux are now available from wuarchive wustl edu archive systems aux x r patches for x r compiled with gcc but not shared libraries are also available john l coolidge coolidge cs uiuc edu binaries by rich kaul kaul ee eng ohio state edu for the sun i running sunos are available on dsinc dsi com please only after hours usa est binaries for the sun i are available from compaq com in pub sun i sources and from vernam cs uwm edu a binary tree for the next by douglas scott doug foxtrot ccmrc ucsb edu is on foxtrot ccmrc ucsb edu it is missing the server though binaries for the sun i are in vernam cs uwm edu sun i binaries for the hp pa are on hpcvaaz cv hp com source and binaries for hp ux s and domain k dn k are available through the interworks users group contact carol relph at fax or relph c apollo hp com patches to x r for solaris by casper h s dik casper fwi uva nl et al are on export in contrib r sunos patch tar z r sunos patch readme patches to x r for the sun type keyboard and the keyboard numlock are available from william bailey dbgwab arco com also binaries are available from unipalm xtech unipalm co uk probably for the sun platforms david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net just the faqs ma am joe friday david b lewis temporarily at but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	pointer cursor hi i am trying to implement a pointer feature in xlib i have multiple windows and all can take input and show output simultaneously on all other displays i want to implement a pointer feature i would like to get the pointer to come up on all windows once i choose pointer in the menu and every one should be able to see it can you give me some hints as to how i should proceed i am new to xlib replies will be greatly appreciated thank you prakash duvvuri cs odu edu
comp.windows.x	lost in tekhvc color space please respond via email has anybody actually seen the tek color space stuff working i m not having any luck with either the xtici editor from export lcs mit edu or with o reilly s ftp able example xcms from ftp uu net the o reilly example fails for almost every set of inputs because xcmstekhvcquerymaxv returns a smaller value than xcmstekhvcqueryminv does which makes no sense to me the xtici editor fails in xcmsstorecolors apparently because the mathematical manipulations of the color specs results in invalid values so you can t actually edit any colors we have x r patch level bit pseudocolor visual i ve poked around in the xcms code in xlib but without some understanding of the theory i have no idea what s going wrong can somebody confirm if either of the above mentioned programs work on their systems or let me know if they fail for you too please include what hardware software patch levels you have any hints please respond with email as i don t regularly read this group thanks karen karen bircsak concurrent computer corporation karenb westford ccur com
comp.windows.x	comp windows x frequently asked questions faq archive name x faq part last modified subject where can i get patches to x r the release of new public patches by the mit x consortium is announced in the comp windows x announce newsgroup patches themselves are available via ftp from export and from other sites from which x is available they are now also distributed through the newsgroup comp sources x some source re sellers may be including patches in their source distributions of x people without ftp access can use the xstuff mail server it now has patches for x r send to xstuff expo lcs mit edu the subject line send fixes where is the name of the patch and is usually just the number of the patch here are a few complications fix is in four parts you need to request a b c and d separately the file sungx uu which was part of an earlier patch was re released with patch note the file doesn t work with solaris fix is in two parts a and b fix is in three parts a b and c fix is in two parts a and b fix replaces the r fix test for the x test suite which previously was optional fix also needs pexlib tar z which you can obtain from xstuff by asking for pexlib uu fix is in parts a through i subject what is the xstuff mail archive the xstuff server is a mail response program that means that you mail it a request and it mails back the response any of the four possible commands must be the first word on a line the xstuff server reads your entire message before it does anything so you can have several different commands in a single message unless you ask for help the xstuff server treats the subject header line just like any other line of the message the archives are organized into a series of directories and subdirectories each directory has an index and each subdirectory has an index the top level index gives you an overview of what is in the subdirectories and the index for each subdirectory tells you what is in it the command help or send help causes the server to send you a more detailed version of this help file if your message contains a line whose first word is index then the server will send you the top level index of the contents of the archive if there are other words on that line that match the name of subdirectories then the indexes for those subdirectories are sent instead of the top level index for example you can say send index fixes or index fixes a message that requests an index cannot request data if your message contains a line whose first word is send then the xstuff server will send you the item s named on the rest of the line to name an item you give its directory and its name for example send fixes a b you may issue multiple send requests the xstuff server contains many safeguards to ensure that it is not monopolized by people asking for large amounts of data the mailer is set up so that it will send no more than a fixed amount of data each day if the work queue contains more requests than the day s quota then the unsent files will not be processed until the next day whenever the mailer is run to send its day s quota it sends the requests out shortest first some mailers produce mail headers that are unusable for extracting return addresses if you use such a mailer you won t get any response if you happen to know an explicit path you can include a line like path foo bar bitnet mitvma mit edu or path bar foo frotz in the body of your message and the daemon will use it the xstuff server itself can be reached at xstuff expo lcs mit edu if your mailer deals in notation try sending to someplace mit eddie expo lcs mit edu xstuff based on information from the mit x consortium subject where can i get x r source and binaries integrated computer solutions inc ships x r on half inch quarter inch and tk formats call for ordering information the free software foundation sells x r on half inch tapes and on qic cartridges yaser doleh doleh math cs kent edu p o box kent oh is making x r available on hp format tapes track and sun cartridges european sites can obtain a free x r distribution from jamie watson who may be reached at chx pan jw or jw pan uu ch non standard logics requests nsl fr makes source available ixi limited is selling x r source on quarter inch cartridge formats and on and floppy with other formats available on request ixi virtual technologies provides the entire x r compressed source release on a single qic quarter inch cartridge and also on meg or meg floppies upon request conor cahill cpcahil virtech uu net young minds makes the r and gnu distributions available on a full text indexed cd rom note that some distributions are media only and do not include docs x r is ftp able from export lcs mit edu these sites are preferable though and are more direct machine internet ftp location name address directory west usa gatekeeper dec com pub x r central usa mordred cs purdue edu pub x r central usa giza cis ohio state edu pub x v r southeast usa uunet uu net x r northeast usa crl dec com pub x r uk janet src doc ic ac uk x v r uk niftp uk ac ic doc src xv r australia munnari oz au x v r the giza cis ohio state edu site in particular is known to have much of the contrib stuff that can be found on export the release is available to dec easynet sites as crl pub x r sites in australia may contact this address ftp adelaide edu au and check the directory pub x r the machine shadows export and archives comp sources x mark prior mrp ucs adelaide edu au note a much more complete list is distributed as part of the introductory postings to comp sources x a set of x r binaries built by tom roell roell informatik tu muenchen de for the ix will available from export lcs mit edu in contrib and in pub i x r from in europe stephen hite shite sinkhole unf edu can also distribute to folks without ftp facilities via disks sent sase contact him for usmail and shipping details in addition the binaries are available via uucp from szebra tb pep ogin nuucp sword nuucp in usr xbbs bbs x in addition the source is on zok in usrx i r server in addition if you are in the us the latest svr binary april patches and fonts are available on piggy ucsb edu in the directory pub x same filenames as above please use after pm pacific as these are large files a set of hp binaries is available on hpcvaaz cv hp com as ftp pub mitx r libs x z a set of x r binaries for the next x have been made available by howie kaye on cunixf cc columbia edu a set of binaries by john coolidge coolidge cs uiuc edu for the mac running a ux is available from wuarchive wustl edu in the file archive systems aux x r xupdate tar z also in x r diffs is a set of patches for making x r with shared libraries with mkshlib a complete distribution of sco x r binaries by baruch cochavy blue techunix technion ac il can be found on uunet the server is roell s x b compiled for et based svga boards subject where can i get osf motif you can obtain either osf motif source or binaries from a number of vendors motif source is now available it is based on x r motif is based on the r intrinsics and is currently at an osf motif source license must be obtained from osf before source can be obtained from the open software foundation or any value added vendor for any version call the direct channels desk at osf at for ordering information various hardware vendors produce developer s toolkits of binaries header files and documentation check your hardware vendor particularly if that vendor is an osf member in addition independent binary vendors produce motif toolkits for machines for which motif is not supported by a vendor the kits include varied levels of bug fixing and support for shared libraries and are based on widely divergent version of motif quest sells kits for suns as well ixi offers kits for sun and sun nsl requests nsl fr offers kits for the sun and sun bluestone consulting makes a kit for sun systems ics makes several binary kits notably for sun dec hp and dec have announced support for motif on sun systems unipalm currently offers for sun systems a motif development kit including x r and based on motif the us distributor is expert object corp bim ships motif binaries for suns shared library support is included contact alain vermeiren av sunbim be or danny backx db sunbim be at fax belgium silogic ships motif and motif on sun machines s i systems offers motif for solaris info in usa and canada metro link inc sales metrolink com in europe contact adnt univision uk ltd ships an implementation of x r and motif including a shared library implementation of libxm a for the unix market motif is also available for sun sparc based workstations it has also announced motif for solaris systems subject does motif work with x r x r motif is based on x r motif available in source form from osf as of august uses the vanilla x r intrinsics where vanilla means with just a few patches the file fix osf which osf distributes is obsoleted by mit s patches the file fix osf distributed with the version or its subsequent modification needs to be applied after mit fix though motif to will work with x r if x r is compiled with dmotifbc and later should work with the vanilla r although there are some known new geometry management problems subject where can i get toolkits implementing open look sun s xview has a sunview style api a version is on the x r tape the latest sources are on export in contrib xview xview and x binaries for the sun i roadrunner are available for ftp from svin win tue nl directory pub x r i supported binaries of xview or include xview for non sun platforms domestic and selected international vendors several are also available from sun contact your local sales office amiga gfxbase inc ellwell drive amigados milpitas ca fax sgi sony news os ibm rs hp decstation unipress software lincoln highway ultrix edison nj fax unipress software ltd po box viking house fax nelson street douglas isle of man united kingdom dec vaxstation tgv mission street vms tgv santa cruz ca fax unipalm ltd st neots road hardwick fax cambridge cb qj england intel quarterdeck office pico boulevard dos systems santa monica ca fax intel sunsoft corporation center drive west interactive suite unix and los angeles ca sco unix stardent scripps institute clinic mb stellix os fax n torrey pines road and titan os include mailstop mb la jolla ca by ftp in pub binary xview readme xview tar z at t s open look gui xt based toolkit is now generally available contact unix for information binaries are produced for sparc systems by international quest corporation a version of the toolkit is also produced under the name olit by sun more recent versions of olit have been ported to ibm and dec mips by both unipress and ics olit is also available for hp from melillo consulting mjm somerset nj makes olit for hp xx series running hpux decstations and rs s thanks to joanne newbauer jo attunix att com sun is shipping openwindows contact your local sales representative for more details the package includes toolkit binaries and header files parcplace s formerly solbourne s extensible c based object interface library which supports run time selection between open look or motif is available from subject where can i get other x sources including r modifications the mit software center ships the x test suite on tape a multi threaded version of xlib based on x r patch is now available for anonymous ftp from new version dec on gatekeeper dec com in pub x contrib mt xlib mit on export lcs mit edu in contrib mt xlib hp has made available drivers to permit the building of the x r sample server on the hp series workstations the files are on export lcs mit edu in ftp contrib r hp srv user contributed software is distributed through the newsgroup comp sources x moderated by chris olson chris imd sterling com also check that group for posting information richard hesketh rlh ukc ac uk has been creating a list of freely available x sources the list is stored on export lcs mit edu in contrib as x source list z it lists the main storage locations for the program and international sites from which it may be ftp ed the machine export lcs mit edu has a great deal of user contributed software in the contrib directory a good deal of it is present in current or earlier versions on the x r x r and x r contrib tapes there are also directories for fixes to contrib software the file on export in contrib index txt is a quick overall index of the software in that area provided by daniel lewart d lewart uiuc edu these sites used to and may still mirror export and are of particular use for australasia anonymous ftp ftp adelaide edu au acsnet fetchfile sirius ua oz the material on giza cis ohio state edu which tends to duplicate the export archives is also available via anonymous uucp from osu cis at tb and v speeds write to uucp cis ohio state edu same as osu cis uucp for instructions the archive is now maintained by karl kleinpaste a new west coast uucp x archive is administered by mark snitily mark zok uucp and contains the full x distribution the xtest distribution an entire archive of comp sources x and other goodies the machine zok has a tb modem which will connect to k baud in that order the anonymous uucp account is uxarch with password xgoodies the modem s phone number is a sample systems or l sys entry might be zok any acu in in uxarch word xgoodies to get a current listing of the files that are available download the file usrx ls lr z a full subject index of the comp sources x files is available in the file usrx comp sources x index the machine has just the one modem so please do not fetch large amounts of data at one sitting courtesy mark snitily in addition uunet source archives tracks comp sources x and provides mb of compressed programs on bpi tapes or tapes it also mirrors export contrib in its packages x directory subject where can i get interesting widgets the free widget foundation fwf library sponsored by brian totty totty cs uiuc edu is now available on a cs uiuc edu in pub fwf v shar z the set of widgets there is intended to form the basis for future contributions to be added to the discussion list send to listserv cs uiuc edu a message saying subscribe listname your full name where listname is one of free widgets announce free widgets development or free widgets bugs version is current look for in the xew widget set contains widgets for data representation version is on export contrib xew tar z peter ware s xo open widget set which has motif like functionality is on archive cis ohio state edu as pub xo xo tar z the athenatools plotter widget set version beta maintained by peter klingebiel klin iat uni paderborn de includes many graph and plotting widgets a copy is on export in plotter v b tar z plotter doc tar z plotter afm tar z and plotter readme the latest versions may in fact be on ftp uni paderborn de in unix tools an advance version of marc quinton s motif port of the fwf multilist widget is in ftp stna stna dgac fr pub multilist tar z additional widgets are available on the contrib portion of the x r tapes these include the xcu set paul johnston s johnston spc jpl nasa gov x control panel widget set emulates hardware counterparts sources are on export lcs mit edu in xc tar z o reilly volume doug young s book the asente swick book and jerry smith s object oriented programming with the x window system toolkits all include details on writing widgets and include several useful widgets sources are typically on export and or uunet the dirt interface builder includes the libxukc widet set which extends the functionality of xaw a graph widget and other d plot and d contour widgets by sundar narasimhan sundar ai mit edu are available from ftp ai mit edu as com ftp pub users sundar graph tar z the graph widget has been updated with documentation and histogram capabilities a graph widget is available from ftp stna stna dgac fr in pub graph tar z it uses a segment list for drawing and hence supports a zoom operation ken lee s xm widget demo that uses display postscript to draw labels at a non horizontal angle is on export in contrib dpslabel tar z the table widget works like troff tbl tables is available in several flavors one of which is with the widget creation library release bell communications research has developed a matrix widget for complex application layouts it s on export in contrib xbae widgets tar z the distribution also includes a caption widget to associate labels with particular gui components dan connolly s connolly convex com xcrichtext interprets rtf data it s on export as contrib xcrichtext tar z the xmgraph motif based graphing widget is on iworks ecn uiowa edu in comp hp gui classic xmgraph tar z although it may not be stable a tex style layout widget by keith packard is described in the proceedings of the th mit technical conference o reilly x resource volume source is available on export contrib layout tar z a version of lee iverson s leei mcrcim mcgill edu image viewing tool is available as contrib vimage tar z on export lcs mit edu the package also includes an imageviewport widget and a filedialog widget in addition the pext toolkit by rich thomson rthomson dsd es com is available on export as pext tar z it includes a pex widget making it easier to use pex in xt based programs a motif port of the xaw clock widget is in ftp stna stna dgac fr in pub clock tar z a modification of the xaw scrollbar widget which supports the arrowhead style of other toolkits is on export in contrib xaw scrollbar mta z a beta release of the r xaw widgets with a d visual appearance by kaleb keithley kaleb thyme jpl nasa gov is available on export in contrib xaw d r xaw d tar z the library which is binary compatible with the mit xaw implements a d subclass which handles the extra drawing also the xmt motif tools dovetail systems s shareware library of widgets and many convenience functions is available from export lcs mit edu contrib and ftp ora com pub xbook xmt in xmt readme and xmt tar z the xtra xwidgets set includes widgets for pie and bar charts xy plots help spreadsheets data entry forms and line and bar graphs contact graphical software technology at info gst com for information the xrt graph widget available for motif xview and olit displays x y plots bar and pie charts and supports user feedback fast updates and postscript output contact kl group inc at info klg com a set of data entry widgets for motif is available from marlan software gwg world std com a set of graph widgets is available from expert database systems a set of osf motif compound widgets and support routines for d visualization is available from ms quek lee hian national computer board republic of singapore tel fax leehian iti gov sg leehian itivax bitnet the ics widget databook includes a variety of control widgets and special purpose widgets available on a variety of platforms information info ics com information on graphing tools may be obtained from info tomsawyer com fax subject where can i get a good file selector widget the free widget foundation set offers a fileselector widget with separate directory path and file listing windows and the filecomplete which has emacs style file completion and expansion other available file requestor widgets include the xifileselector from iris software s book the xdbx file selector extracted by david nedde daven wpi wpi edu and the filenominator from the axe distribution the ghostview xfig and vimage packages also include file selector widgets subject what widget is appropriate to use as a drawing canvas some widget sets have a widget particularly for this purpose a workspace or drawingarea which doesn t display anything but lets your xt application know when it has been re exposed resized and when it has received user key and mouse input the best thing to do for other widget sets including the athena set is to create or obtain such a widget this is preferable to drawing into a core widget and grabbing events with xtaddeventhandler which loses a number of benefits of xt and encapsulation of the functionality at least one version has been posted to comp sources x name the publicly available programs xball and xpic include other versions the athena widget manual mit doc xaw template in the r distribution includes a tutorial and source code to a simple widget which is suitable for use the free widget foundation set contains a canvas widget subject what is the current state of the world in x terminals jim morton jim applix com posts quarterly to comp windows x a list of manufacturers and terminals it includes pricing information notable buyers guide surveys include the september issue of systems integration subject where can i get an x server with a touchscreen or lightpen labtam fax offers a surface acoustic wave touch screen option on its xengine terminals tektronix provides an x terminal with the xtouch touch screen this terminal may also be resold through trident systems metro link supports the elographics serial touch screen controllers subject where can i get an x server on a pc dos or unix mit x r already provides a server to many unixes with support for many of the popular video graphics adapters and for other non msdos pcs you can obtain a server from these sources xfree formerly x e is an enhanced version of x which was distributed with x r it includes many bug fixes speed improvements and other enhancements source for version is on export lcs mit edu in pub contrib ftp physics su oz au in x and ftp win tue nl in pub x in addition binaries are on ftp physics su oz au and ftp win tue nl among other systems info x physics su oz au note this package obsoletes glenn lai s speedup patches for an enhanced x r server for unixes with et boards speedup tar z on export metro link inc sales metrolink com in europe contact adnt ships an implementation of x r for the unix market sgcs offers x version based on thomas roell s x r two headed server in binary and source form information info sgcs com isc sco uhc and other well known operating system vendors typically offer x servers for msdos pcs daniel j mccoy mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov has started posting monthly a list of non unix servers for pcs macs and amigas it includes pricing information the current copy is kept on export in contrib as xservers nonunix txt z an article on pc x servers appears in the march open systems today also of possible use net i from programit enables communication among dos os and unix machines and can be used to display pc sessions on your unix x display subject where can i get an x server on a macintosh running macos exodus from white pine software runs on any mac with at least mb of memory and runs the x server within a standard macintosh window version supports intermixing of x and mac windows and the adsp protocol the version supports the shape extension and includes decwindows support apple s macx runs on macplus or newer machines with mb of memory and system software or later version is fully x r based it supports full icccm compatible cut and paste of text and graphics between the macintosh and x worlds the shape extension including shaped windows on the macintosh desktop an optional built in icccm compliant window manager x r fonts and colors a built in bdf font compiler and built in standard colormaps upgrades to macx are available by ftp from aux support apple com info note macx is also the name of a vax mac xmodem transfer utility also liken unix or info qualix com software enables monochrome mac applications to run on a sparc system running x xport unix or xport qualix com enables mac applications to display on an x based workstation by turning the mac into an x client intercon has a product called planet x which enables mac applications to display on an x server subject where can i get x for the amiga the new amiga machines offer an x server and open look tools and libraries on a full svr implementation gfxbase inc provides x r for the amigados computer it contains x r clients fonts etc and a release color server an optional programmer s toolkit includes the header files libraries and sample programs info from gfxbase dale luck uunet cbmvax pyramid boing dale subject where can i get a fast x server for a workstation the r server should be among the fastest available for most machines sun sells a direct xlib product which improves rendering for applications running on the same machine as the x server the replacement xlib library accesses graphics hardware directly using sun s direct graphics access dga technology international quest corporation has an optimized r server for sun under sunos unipalm have r servers for sun and sparc platforms these are optimised to use graphics hardware and will run with sunview information or xtech unipalm co uk xgraph s xtool is an x server implemented in sunview which boasts impressive results on sun and sparc systems several companies are making hardware accellerator boards dupont pixel systems for sun megatek s x cellerator board for the sun and sun is based on the ti the company claims performance improvements of x to x over the sample x r server subject where can i get a server for my high end sun graphics board takahashi naoto electrotechnical laboratory ntakahas etl go jp has modified the mit x r server to support the sun cg cg and cg boards the files are on export in contrib xsun tar z note that both files are necessary to build xsun the jpl r xsun multi screen server is a general purpose replacement for the mit server ddx sun layer it provides for the screen to be split among several monitors and implements several other features above the mit implementation available on export lcs mit edu in the file contrib r xsun multi screen tar z kaleb keithley kaleb thyme jpl nasa gov the file was updated mar subject where can i get an x terminal server for my low end sun seth robertson seth ctr columbia edu has written xkernel the current version as of expected rsn is on sol ctr columbia edu in pub xkernel gamma it turns a sun into a pseudo x terminal most of the overhead of the operating system is side stepped so it is fairly fast and needs little disk space a similar approach is to run the regular x server by making etc init a shell script which does the minimal setup and then invokes xsun like this example script from mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu bin sh exec dev console etc fsck p dev nd case in etc reboot q n echo nd fsck failed get help etc halt echo interrupted etc reboot echo unknown error in reboot fsck get help etc halt esac bin dd if tmp fs of dev nd bs count dev null etc mount dev nd tmp etc ifconfig le netmask broadcast etc mount o ro apollo u x lib local lib x etc route add default dev null set etc ifconfig le exec xsun once multidisp mux query sh vn local lib x xdm servers subject what terminal emulators other than xterm are available pcs has rewritten xterm from scratch using a multi widget approach that can be used by applications a version is on the r contrib tape and on export in contrib emu tar z for more information contact me dude pcs com mxterm a motif based xterm is available from the paderborner ftp server ftp uni paderborn de file unix x more contrib mxterm tar z the color terminal widget provides ansi terminal emulation compatible with the vtx series a version is on export in contrib ctw tar z a motif version is on ftp stna stna dgac fr in pub term tar z kterm is an x r based vt vt and tektronix terminal emulator that supports display of chinese japanese and korean text in vt mode also supported are ansi color sequences multi byte word selection limited compound text support and tab and newline preservation in selections kterm is also available from these anonymous ftp sites clr nmsu edu pub misc kterm tar z export lcs mit edu contrib kterm tar z kum kaist ac kr pub unix xstuffs kterm tar z courtesy of mark leisher mleisher nmsu edu kterm tar z is now on export mterm by mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu is an x terminal emulator which includes ansi x and dec emulation modes mterm can be had by ftp to larry mcrcim mcgill edu in x mterm src mterm ball o wax cxterm is a chinese xterm which supports both gb and the so called big encoding hanzi input conversion mechanism is builtin in cxterm most input methods are stored in external files that are loaded at run time users can redefine any existing input methods or create their own ones the x r cxterm is the rewritten of cxterm version based on x r xterm it is in the r contrib software thanks to zhou ning zhou tele unit no and steinar bang uunet idt unit no steinarb xvt is available on export s contrib in xvt tar z and xvt readme it is designed to offer xterm s functionality with lower swap space and may be of particular use on systems driving many x terminals x is in x r contrib also ibm sells a emulator for the rs part it s based on motif century software sells a vt terminal emulator for x vt wyse and sco color console emulation are also available grafpoint s tgraf x provides emulation of tektronix and xx graphics terminals it s available for most major platforms information inc free demo copies fax uunet grafpnt sales ixi s x deskterm a package for integrating character based applications into an x environment includes a number of terminal emulation modules information pericom produces teem x a set of several emulation packages for a number of tek dec westward and data general terminals the software runs on sun sun apollo dec isc ibm aix information us uk sco s scoterm info sco com part of its open desktop environment is a motif compliant sco ansi color console emulator subject where can i get an x based editor or word processor you can ftp a version of gnu emacs the extensible customizable self documenting real time display editor including x support from prep ai mit edu pub gnu emacs tar z or informatik tu muenchen de pub gnu emacs emacs tar z epoch is a modified version of gnu emacs with additional facilities useful in an x environment current sources are on cs uiuc edu in ftp pub epoch files epoch the current version is in europe try unido informatik uni dortmund de there are two subdirectories epoch contains the epoch source and gwm contains the source to the programmable window manager gwm with which epoch works well you can get on the epoch mailing list by sending a request to epoch request cs uiuc edu lucid emacs is a version of gnu emacs derived from an early version of emacs version it currently requires x windows to run x support is greatly enhanced over gnu emacs version including support for multiple x windows input and display of all iso latin characters zmacs lispm style region highlighting a customizable motif like menubar more powerful keymap support flexible text attributes support on regional and screen local basis through x resources and or lisp and support for the x selection mechanism lucid emacs is free the latest version is and is available from labrea stanford edu in the pub gnu lucid directory the andrew system on the x contrib tapes has been described as one of the best word processing packages available it supports word processing with multi media embedded objects rasters tables spread sheets drawings style editor application builder embedded programming language c release became available june fred hansen wjh andrew cmu edu you may be able to use the remote andrew demo service to try this software try finger help atk itc cmu edu for help the interviews c toolkit contains a wysiwig editor called doc it saves and loads files in a latex like format not quite latex the package can also import idraw postscript drawings a simple editor axe by j k wight newcastle ac uk is available on export and arjuna newcastle ac uk as axe tar z it is based around the xaw text widget ted is a simple motif based text editor it is a wrapper around the motif text widget which offers search replace paragraph formatting and navigation features ted is available from ftp eos ncsu edu as pub bill tar z here are also executables there point by crowley unmvax cs unm edu charlie crowley is tcl tk based and offers dyanimic configuration and programming in the tcl macro language the editor is available from unmvax cs unm edu as pub point point tar z asedit by andrzej stochniol astoch ic ac uk is on export in contrib asedit tar z it is a simple text editor built around the motif text widget version was released also elan computer group mountain view ca has announced the avalon publisher an x open look wysiwyg electronic publishing system framemaker and framewriter are available as x based binary products for several machines frame is at ca wx formerly indepthedit is available from non standard logics requests nsl fr buzzwords international inc has an editor called professional edit that runs under x motif for various platforms info decwrite is available from dec for some dec hardware and sunwrite is available from sun islandwrite will soon be available from island graphics info island com for some hp apollo platforms interleaf is currently available from interleaf ma on all sun and dec platforms others are under development the aster x office integration tools from applix applix ma include a multi font wysiwg document composer for several systems arbortext inc provides an x version of its electronic publishing program called the publisher the publisher is available on sun hp and apollo workstations contact arbortext at iris computing laboratories offers the ie editor info or info spectro com bbn slate from bbn software products includes a menu driven word processor with multiple fonts and style sheets it supports x on multiple platforms or slate offer bbn com the powerful sam editor by rob pike is split into a host portion and a front end graphics portion which now has an x implementation sam is now available by anonymous ftp from research att com in dist sam bundle z watch that space for updated versions there is a mailing list for sam users requests to sam fans request hawkwind utcs toronto edu a set of extensions which augment the mouse activity with the keyboard is available from uxc cso uiuc edu in pub sam samx shar innovative solutions or brian zimbelman is brian bbx basis com publishes the user configurable motif based xamine editor qualix offers a product information info qualix com or unix typex is a motif based editor available for several systems information amcad research fax wordperfect offers an x based version of wordperfect for several workstations information or subject where can i get an x based mailer xmh an x interface to mh is distributed with the x release xmail is an x based window interface to berkeley style mail handlers it is styled primarily after the sunview mailtool application and builds on most unix systems the current release is available in the mit x r contrib tape and from export and uunet info jeff markham markham cadence com mmh my mail handler a motif interface to the mh mail handler is available from ftp eos ncsu edu in pub bill tar z it is bundled with the ted editor which it uses for composing messages motif is required if you don t have it look for dec and sparc executables in the same place information and problems to erik scott escott eos ncsu edu the andrew toolkit supports the andrew message system it is available from export and many other x archives and from emsworth andrew cmu edu or send email to susan andrew cmu edu release became available june you may be able to use the remote andrew demo service to try this software try finger help atk itc cmu edu for help xmailtool is an xaw based interface to a bsd style mail reader version was released information bob kierski bobo cray com or cem is a motif based mailer using standard mailbox formats it is on nelson tx ncsu edu in pub cem information sam moore sam moore ncsu edu also alfalfa software offers poste a unix based mailer that has motif and command based interfaces it includes support for multimedia enclosures and supports both the internet and x mail standards information info alfalfa com z code software offers z mail for most unix systems binaries support both tty and motif interfaces the mailer includes a csh like scripting language for customizing and extending mail capabilities information info z code com several vendors systems include x based mailers dec offers dxmail sun offers an x based mailtool sco info sco com includes scomail in its open desktop product several integrated office productivity tools include mailers the aster x office integration tools from applix applix ma include a mailer subject where can i get an x based paint draw program xpic is an object oriented drawing program it supports multiple font styles and sizes and variable line widths there are no rotations or zooms xpic is quite suitable as an interactive front end to pic though the xpic format produced can be converted into postscript the latest version is on the r contrib tape in clients xpic xfig by brian v smith bvsmith lbl gov is an object oriented drawing program supporting compound objects the xfig format can be converted to postscript or other formats recent versions are on the r contrib tape or on export in contrib r fixes version idraw supports numerous fonts and various line styles and arbitrary rotations it supports zoom and scroll and color draws and fills the file format is a postscript dialect it can import tiff files distributed as a part of the interviews c toolkit current release from interviews stanford edu a version of robert forsman s thoth lightning cis ufl edu xscribble an bit paint program for x is now on ftp cis ufl edu in pub thoth xpaint is available from ftp ee lbl gov as xpaint tar z a rewrite xpaint by david koblas koblas netcom com was released as xpaint pl tar z xpaint is a bitmap pixmap editing tool a new openwindows postscript based graphical editor named ice is now available for anonymous ftp from internet host lamont ldgo columbia edu ice image composition environment is an imaging tool that allows raster images to be combined with a wide variety of postscript annotations in wysiwyg fashion via x imaging routines and news postscript rasterizing it may require openwindows and sun c tgif by william cheng william oahu cs ucla edu is available from most uucp sites and also from export and from cs ucla edu it is frequently updated version patch was released the pixmap program info colas sa inria fr for creating pixmaps is on the r contrib tape it resembles the bitmap client version is now available although metacard is not generally classified as a paint program a full bit color image editor is built into the program which can be used for light image editing and for producing color icons info metacard com metacard is available via anonymous ftp from ftp metacard com csn org or pixt by j michael flanery produces xpm output also dxpaint is a bitmap oriented drawing program most like macpaint it s good for use by artists but commonly held to be bad for drawing figures or drafting dxpaint is part of dec s ultrix release framemaker has some draw capabilities bbn slate from bbn software products includes a full featured draw and paint program with object grouping and multiple patterns multiple x platforms or slate offer bbn com dux ta dah islandgraphics offers islanddraw islandpaint islandpresent info corel draw ported to x by prior data sciences arts letters composer ficor autograph openwindows includes the olpixmap editor sco odt includes the scopaint editor hp vue includes the vueicon editor several integrated office productivity tools include draw paint capabilities the aster x office integration tools from applix applix ma include draw paint capabilities thanks in part to stephen j byers af cobcs cummins com and to j daniel smith dsmith ann arbor applicon slb com david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net just the faqs ma am joe friday david b lewis temporarily at but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	re honors degrees do they mean anything tkld cogsci ed ac uk kevin davidson writes in my opinion a programming degree is still worth having yes but a cs degree is not a programming degree does anybody know of a computing course where programming is taught computer science is a branch of maths or the course i did was i ve also done a software engineering course much more practical and likely to be the sort of thing an employer really wants rather than what they think they want but also did not teach programming the ability to program was an entry requirement try the m sc computing science course at the real newcastle university it s a conversion course but at least they teach real programming in the space of months we were taught pascal simula prolog miranda also some basic low level stuff was covered as well they also did concurrent programming and operating systems some software engineering plus quite a few optional units including database theory and some stuff about comms the pascal is to be replaced by c c i think next year i learn t this and x windows programming as well anyway via a good selection of project over the final three months depending on your tastes the selection of skills learn t can be quite wide reaching the one critiscism i would level at the course which i would have thought invaluable is the lack of an option to do the project period in industry this would probably need a slightly longer project period say six months but would enhance the prestige and usefulness of an already excellent and thorough course yes i know this sounds like a plug for the course why not mackem ian
comp.windows.x	re cute x clients try this include stdio h include x xlib h include x xutil h display dpy int screen xcolor xclrs xclrp xid cmap int cells i j red green blue got main dpy xopendisplay null screen defaultscreen dpy cells displaycells dpy screen cmap xcreatecolormap dpy rootwindow dpy screen defaultvisual dpy screen xclrs xcolor malloc cells sizeof xclrs xclrp xclrs for i i cells i xclrp pixel i xclrp flags xclrp xquerycolors dpy defaultcolormap dpy screen xclrs cells xstorecolors dpy cmap xclrs cells xinstallcolormap dpy cmap got while got xclrp xclrs got for i i cells i if xclrp red xclrp red got if xclrp green xclrp green got if xclrp blue xclrp blue got xclrp xstorecolors dpy cmap xclrs cells xinstallcolormap dpy cmap got while got xclrp xclrs got for i i cells i if xclrp red xclrp red got if xclrp green xclrp green got if xclrp blue xclrp blue got xclrp xstorecolors dpy cmap xclrs cells xinstallcolormap dpy cmap it will work on any pseudocolor xserver hopefully o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re trouble compiling x r on sunos i was having the same problems compiling x r on a ipc sunos if you compile with make k world it will not stop on the ld errors as was stated in another post the clients with the errors still run correctly victor martinez vic fajita saic com
comp.windows.x	fwd progressives happy hour forwarding begins here date wed apr edt from women s center women andrew cmu edu to dist afs andrew cmu edu usr women dlists happyhour announce dl andrew cmu edu subject progressives happy hour enjoy good food and interesting company at the progressives happy hour thursday april starting at pm at the women s center located next to the laundromat in the margaret morrison plaza kosher for passover food will be served all are welcome good things to drink will be there but paper cups won t please be progressive and bring a cup or mug with you co sponsored by the student government president and funded by the student activites fee end of forwarding
comp.windows.x	problems with open windows after having openwindows version for sunos or xwindows running continuously on my machine for days the following message appears when trying to open a new window or to run any program that needs to open windows xview error cannot open connection to window server server package i would greatly appreciate any suggestions to solve this problem yali amit department of statistics university of chicago chicago il
comp.windows.x	problems with openwindows after having openwindows version for sunos or xwindows running continuously on my machine for days the following message appears when trying to open a new window or to run any program that needs to open windows xview error cannot open connection to window server server package i would greatly appreciate any suggestions to solve this problem yali amit department of statistics university of chicago chicago il
comp.windows.x	re xv root with vue was re xloadimage onroot on apr pdt jan camhpp mdcbbs com jan vandenbrande said jan nntp posting host jan on a related note how can i use xv to display colored gifs on my jan root display with hp vue jan all i can do with vue is display xbm s through their jan backdrop style manager jan xv does not seem to be able to override whatever vue jan puts there i suspect this is because vue creates a window probably overrideredirect that is the size of or larger than the root window because the window manager does not know about this you cannot move resize etc it xv in the mean time is busy changing your root window to whatever you have requested but you never get to see it because vue s window is overlaid on top of the root window contact hp support and see whether vue can support coloured bitmap format such as xpm if they cant then they probably create all their coloured backdrops inside the code guy singh ixi internet guy x co uk vision park uucp guy ixi uucp cambridge bang uunet ixi guy cb zr uk tel
comp.windows.x	how can i rotate text hi i am programming in xview sunos openwindows i would like to rotate some text and display it i did read the faq in comp windows x but am not sure how do i translate it to xview i would appreciate if someone can give me tips on how to do it thanx mahendra ps as i am not a frequent news group reader i would appreciate if answers replies would be mailed to me i will post a follow up mahendra chheda mmc cs rit edu mmc ritvax isc rit edu office residence dept of computer science kimball drive rochester institute of tech rochester ny tel tel
comp.windows.x	re trouble compiling x r on sunos in article apr fwi uva nl casper fwi uva nl casper h s dik writes epstein trwacs fp trw com jeremy epstein writes dmm head cfa harvard edu david meleedy writes there s a bug in sunos which is alluded to in the faq although there it s talking about x r as being affected you need to force libxmu to be linked statically rather than dynamically which works around the linker error the simplest thing to do is edit each of the makefiles where there s a failure and change the line which reads xmulib l xmusrc lxmu to xmulib l xmusrc bstatic lxmu bdynamic no this is only relevant for openwindows x as shipped with sunos it is not relevant for mit r mit r should compile without problems casper i don t know how many hours you ve spent on this but the sun user group makes x r available on cd rom to its members the disk has both sources and binaries and it sells for i ve tagged a table of contents and an orderform on below if anyone s interested alex newman alex newman voice my life may be stressful troll sug org fax but at least it s not boring sun user group beacon st brookline ma sug cd is x r and gnu on a cdrom priced at to sug members including a caddy sug s emphasis has always been on supplying the greatest possible service and value added to our members last year the sug disk contained plug and play x r mb of additional essential binaries almost mb of sun patches fully indexed archives of sun related net postings priced at only our aim this year has been to reduce the price for disks which can be produced inexpensively but to continue to supply as much value added as possible to accomplish this we will be putting out a two disk set the first containing what s ready and needed now the second available later in containing more sparc binaries and other useful material not found on previous disks the sug disk which was assembled by robert a bruce contains a lot of essential source code and we decided it would be a great service to make it available right away to our members and this pricing makes this a good opportunity to become a member for per disk including one of those hard to find caddies if you are not a sug member you can become one for an additional if you live within the us or outside the sug cdrom is an iso disk which means it can be used by pc macintosh and other workstations as well and contains a total of mb of material including x r sources and core binaries for sparc as of several weeks after the initial distribution thus four fixes and the the mit contrib distribution are included mb of material binaries for x xsun xsunmono appres atobm auto box bdftopcf beach ball bitmap bmtoa constype editres fs fsinfo fslsfonts fstobdf ico imake kbd mode listres lndir makedepend maze mkdirhier mkfontdir oclock plbpex puzzle resize showfont showrgb startx twm viewres x perf x perfcomp xauth xbiff xcalc xclipboard xclock xcmsdb xcmstest xconsole xcutsel xditview xdm xdpr xdpyinfo xedit xev xeyes xfd xfontsel xgas xgc xhost xinit xkill xload xlogo xlsatoms xlsclients xlsfonts xmag xman xmh xmkmf xmodmap xon xpr xprop xrdb xrefresh xset xsetroot xstdcmap xterm xwd xwininfo xwud copies of contributed x sources from export lcs mit edu contrib which were then uncompressed untarred into source directories mb these are sources only and some of them were after the date of production of this disk included in the mit contrib and contrib distributions gnu sources which were uncompressed untarred into source directories mb sparc binaries and needed libraries for these gnu programs a p ar as basename bash bison cat cc cc plus chgrp chmod chown ci cmp co comm compress cp cpio cpp ctags cut cvs date dd df diff diff dir dirname du egrep elvis emacs env etags expand expr fgrep find find perl flex fold g g dep g filt gawk gcc gdb ginstall gnuchess gnuchessn gnuchessr gnugo gnuplot gnuplot x gprof grep h ph head id ident indent ispell ld ld less ln locate logname ls m make merge mkdir mkfifo mkmodules mknod mt mv nice nm oleo paste pathchk perl pr printenv printf ranlib rcs rcsdiff rcsinfo rcsmerge rcstest ref refont rlog rm rmdir rmt s p screen sed size sleep split strip stty sum tac tail taintperl tar tee test time touch tput tty uname unexpand uniq vdir virec whoami xargs xchess yes zmore an archive of comp source x postings volume through volume mb parts are supplied just as posted you get to put together the pieces compile install etc cost sug members non members additional within the us elsewhere shipping handling inside the usa elsewhere mail to sun user group inc suite beacon street brookline ma usa voice fax the sun user group also accepts visa and mastercard via telephone or electronically cut here and return completed form the sugcd order form the price of the cd is shipping and handling add usa or intl if you are not a member of the sun user group add usa or international to the above sums for membership you must be a sug member to purchase the cd rom i enclose a us check for sug member in the usa sug member outside the usa includes membership inside the usa includes international membership name signature company name sug membership if known electronic mail address telephone number check enclosed mastercard visa credit card exp date card holder signature ship to bill to i hereby authorize the sun user group to renew my membership and charge my credit card automatically on an annual basis i do not wish my name to be included in non sun user group mailings i do not wish my name to be published in the sun user group member directory i wish to be added to the sun user group electronic mailing list members only outside the u s only individuals outside of the usa may find using their credit cards easier than purchasing us checks as this eliminates bank charges sun user group beacon street suite brookline ma voice fax email office sug org
comp.windows.x	problem with tek xterminal we have recently purchased a tektronix xterminal and i m having a problem with it we have a graphics widget that we wrote to display waveforms and it doesn t work on the xterminal the buttons etc all show up and it seems to take the right amount of time to draw but nothing is visible in the graphics window i have no clue as to where to start looking the program works fine on all our suns s and s color and b w could anyone suggest a line of attack for this problem tekxpress xp color xterminal running host is a sun ipx running sunos and x r pl ned danieley ndd sunbar mc duke edu basic arrhythmia laboratory box duke university medical center durham nc or
comp.windows.x	remapping return key in a dialog i am new to x programming so please bear with me i am trying to have a dialog box that returns it s value upon the user entering a new value and hitting the return key don t want to have a done button the piece of code below will work if i exclude the xtnvalue argument but will not work as is can someone shed some light on this or suggest a better way ultimately i will have several areas active at the same time to allow a user to modify parameters in the program thanks for your help karen rogers dupont rogerskm pluto es dupont com code starts here void doit printf entered the doit function n exit main argc argv int argc char argv widget toplevel widget outer xtappcontext app con widget samples arg args static xtactionsrec key actions doit doit toplevel xtvaappinitialize app con test null argc argv null null outer xtcreatemanagedwidget paned panedwidgetclass toplevel null zero xtappaddactions app con key actions xtnumber key actions xtsetarg args xtnlabel enter value xtsetarg args xtnvalue samples xtcreatemanagedwidget samples dialogwidgetclass outer args xtoverridetranslations samples xtparsetranslationtable key return doit xtrealizewidget toplevel xtappmainloop app con
comp.windows.x	joining the x consortium hi does anyone have any information on joining the x consortium what are the costs what are the benefits who should i contact thanks
comp.windows.x	re honors degrees do they mean anything justin kibell jck catt citri edu au wrote what has this got to do with comp windows x i agree that this is a side track but it is funny that i skip so many other articles threads but i couldn t resist reading this one my beliefs opinions and expressions are strictly my own and do not represent or reflect any official or unofficial policies or attitudes of any other person or organization but i have heard that ford motor company has had a recruiting bias toward engineers and away from computer science graduates the reasoning is supposedly to better meet long range personnel requirements this is evidenced by the large number of cs people who are employed via contracts and are not brought on board except in special circumstances this is a generalization which obviously doesn t always hold true but there are statistics furthermore most software engineering at ford gets done by electrical engineers i know of univerities that have merged the computer science department and the electrical engineering so that you can get a computer degree which qualifies you for much more than programming but since my beliefs and opinions are merely figments of my distorted imagination i suppose i should keep it to myself
comp.windows.x	large color monitors does anyone have any information advice on large color monitors to use with a system running x server software i maining looking for quality information and price but all information is welcomed thanks david it s all ball bearings fletch
comp.windows.x	re converting contents of x window to color postscript jeff haferman haferman icaen uiowa edu wrote can somebody point me to source code for dumping the contents of an x window into a color postscript file i have written an app which brings up an x window and i want at the click of the mouse to dump the window into a postscript file thanks jeff haferman internet haferman icaen uiowa edu department of mechanical engineering dod bmwmoa ama the university of iowa iowa city ia r s i use xwd and xwd ps to do it from within a program i use xwd id xxxxx where xxxxx is the window id obtained from xtwindow widget raju gurung i t i t building dept of electrical eng university of manchester oxford rd manchester u k
comp.windows.x	xremote into x r hi i remember reading or hallucinating that ncd s pc xremote functionality had been given by ncd to mit for inclusion in x r is this true if so set mode cheap can i just wait for x r to get compressed serial line x server support thanks terry lemons digital equipment corporation
comp.windows.x	any recent information on frescoe does anyone know of any recent information on the frescoe work being done by the consortium i ve seen the short description that was published in the x resource but am looking for something with a bit more depth to it
comp.windows.x	pointer xlib hi i am trying to implement a pointer feature in xlib i have multiple windows and all can take input and show output simultaneously on all other displays i want to implement a pointer feature i would like to get the pointer to come up on all windows once i choose pointer in the menu and every one should be able to see it can you give me some hints as to how i should proceed i am new to xlib replies will be greatly appreciated thank you prakash duvvuri cs odu edu
comp.windows.x	xterm and default text cursor color what i want to be able to do is to set the cursor color to the same as the forground color that is set for that xterm from the man page cr color this option specifies the color to use for text cur sor the default is to use the same foreground color that is used for text however this doesnt seem to be the case it appears to default to black or to whatever xterm cursorcolor is set to feel free to point me at the relevant fm or whatever cheers c
comp.windows.x	string to widget resource converter can anybody tell me how to use the xmu function xmucvtstringtowidget i want to specify a widget name in a resource file so that i can connect two widgets together on an xmform ie myproggy mylistsw topwidget maintextsw however when i run the program i get the message warning no type converter registered for string to window conversion just like the manual sez i have managed to find this bit of code which seems to be the correct way to go about this static xtconvertargrec parentcvtargs xtwidgetbaseoffset xtpointer xtoffsetof corerec core parent sizeof corewidget xtsettypeconverter xtrstring xtrwidget xmucvtstringtowidget parentcvtargs xtnumber parentcvtargs xtcacheall null however i haven t got a clue where to put it the example code i have seems to suggest i can only do this if i am creating my own widget but elsewhere it says that i can add it to a widget s class intialize function how what s one of those if anybody has any code to do this please let me know the trick i m sure this is a faq thanks in advance rik ps what are the header files corep h and intrinsicsp h should i use these or core h and intrinsics h ok i know rtfm richard turnbull dept computer science e mail university of liverpool rik compsci liverpool ac uk liverpool l bx england phone
comp.windows.x	re q how to avoid xopendisplay hang don t know how to avoid the xopendisplay hang but perhaps you could use something else such as zephyr perhaps rob
comp.windows.x	problem with mit shm i am trying to write an image display program that uses the mit shared memory extension the shared memory segment gets allocated and attached to the process with no problem but the program crashes at the first call to xshmputimage with the following message x error of failed request badshmseg invalid shared segment parameter major opcode of failed request mit shm minor opcode of failed request x shmputimage segment id in failed request x serial number of failed request current serial number in output stream like i said i did error checking on all the calls to shmget and shmat that are necessary to create the shared memory segment as well as checking xshmattach there are no problems if anybody has had the same problem or has used mit shm without having the same problem please let me know by the way i am running openwindows on a sun sparc thanks in advance john c
comp.windows.x	re q how to avoid xopendisplay hang in article c xr oy skates gsfc nasa gov andy ice stx com writes i m writing xwall a simple x version of wall and i want it to put a message up on each of a default list of displays the problem is that xopendisplay hangs if one of the displays is currently controlled by xdm login screen xdm does xgrabserver when it s running in secure mode so do some screen locks there s really no simple way to tell this is the case you can take xdm out of secure mode probably not too cool you can wrap your call to xopendisplay in some code which solicts a future sigalrm and longjmps past the xopendisplay from the signal handler an example of this can be seen in the xdm sources note that longjmping out of xopendisplay probably causes a memory leak any program functioning this way probably needs to exit regularly
comp.windows.x	re gui study in article apr kocrsv delcoelect com c xjfa kocrsv delcoelect com james f allman iii writes i m doing a study on what the following type of users would like to have on a unix manager basically i m looking for the unix commands and features on motif window interface which will help the different type of users make use of unix personally i can t stand motif i also can t stand gui command line interfaces for things like access to the commands i know command line and love i think you ll find that experience sic users command line der mouse a year and a half ago i felt the same way the i started using gooyies give me the command line when something out of the ordinary needs done and the gooy when i am doing normal or repative work note that most operations are repetative hackers love cls because what i like about gui s the ability to view and manipulate a group of objects files text directories etc and and manipulate them in some way such as delete copy paste rename the ability to have several applications screens visible and accessable at the same time being able to do a standard set of functions easily and quickly on an unfamiliar operating system i am familiar with the command lines of several operating systems but occasionally i will have to some work on a system that i almost never use if it has a gui i can usually accomplish what i want to do fairly easily the command line on the other hand often is a long and painful experience what i hate about gui s having to switch between the mouse and the keyboard i guess i have a strong one handed preference i like to use a computer with one hand and use the other for holding something like a piece of paper of a mug of tea i have configured my favorite editor so that most of the editing functions can be done with one hand such as navigating cutting pasting searching opening and saving files etc the main thing i need to use both hands for is entering text i guess i need to get one of those mice with like buttons or something and then i will have the best of both worlds brent
comp.windows.x	motif and interviews hi i am in the process of making the decision whether i should write c wrappers for motif myself or use motif or interviews though i have downloaded the tar files i fail to see any documentation i have two questions if you have used these or similar c sy toolkits what has been your experience where do i find reference books documentation for them any and all input will be greatly appreciated unmesh
comp.windows.x	re lost in tekhvc color space hi xtici worked for my system i m using x r pl clientside only on a dec on ultrix may be you have a serious floatingpoint compilation problem o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	books on i c c other than i c c m can anyone recomend a good book or article on inter client communications besides i c c m i ve looked everywhere i can and it seems everyone tells you how to do it but nobody shows you how o reilly has no examples iccm has no examples asente swick give no examples in fact most of the books i ve looked at if they discuss icc at all simply give a condensed version of the iccm and then refer you to the iccm i did find one example of how to use atoms and properties in young s book and five hours after i bought young s book i had my applications talking to each other i am not sure however if thats the best way i d like to stay independent of unix so pipes and or sockets probably aren t the way to go but within x one can also use messages the clipboard and perhaps window groups i need a text that discusses the various methods discusses which method is best for which purpose and gives examples without examples it s all just words thanks in advance ross
comp.windows.x	how to disable reverse video on xterm man well i am not sure if this is the right newsgroup to ask but let me try anyway i am running xterm and like all unix users i run man something recently i switched to solaris and their man pages are littered with i directives that are somehow translated into reverse video when displayed by man under xterm the resulting output admittedly a personal taste is very annoying to look at back when i was using sunos i remember their man pages have some keywords displayed with underlining so my question is how do i change the xterm s behaviour under i directives for nroff man pages to perhaps underlining or at least disabling it b directives are fine i like them and of course i don t want to go in and edit the man pages inputs somehow xterm allows one to specify both a normal font and a bold font but not an italic font any pointers suggestions are greatly appreciated thanks john p s running xterm rv won t work i tried
comp.windows.x	re teleuse uim x and c hubec ctp com hubert chou writes does anyone have any good ideas on how to integrate c code elegantly with teleuse uim x interface architect generated code source would be great but any suggestions are welcome alsys has produced a paper outlining how to use c with teleuse you can get a copy from your local sales rep or call us at as mentioned it is very straight forward using the dialog language similar to visual basic tom erickson alsys tne world std com south bedford street burlington ma
comp.windows.x	re gui toolkit for the sun sparc in article c m cuug ab ca winsorr sun robin winsor writes you are right to be going motif rather than openlook sun has just recently seen the light and dumped their commitment to openlook in the announcement they stated they have no future plans for devguide this is incorrect sun has made no such claim regarding devguide and as manager of the devguide engineering group i can state with authority that work on devguide is continuing apace we had quite a strong show of interest from the devguide user community at last week s solaris developer s conference devguide is being advocated not only as a valuable future builder tool but as an important bit of transition technology that will help sustain current customers and facilitate their migration to the cose desktop environment if you have specific questions about devguide availability etc you can contact tali aben our devguide product marketing person at david bryant devguide manager sunsoft
comp.windows.x	x for pc for those of you who couldn t find x appeal it is availible at the following sitex ascwide ascii co jp in the pub msdos xappeal dir wuarchive wustl edu in the mirrors garbo uwasa fi demo directory the three files are xap exe aip xap fon zip and drivers zip josh joshua weage u s snail spring rd baroda mi e mail cs freenet in a cwru edu ai yfn ysu edu fidonet joshua weage all ideas are my own and no one elses
comp.windows.x	widgets vs gadgets i ve been using the xmgraph widget that s been floating around and i noticed the performance is significantly better using gadgets perhaps even faster i had heard in an old programming course that gadgets were no longer any benefit to performance and that it s just as well to use widgets everywhere interesting i d like to know why but try it again on a single ethernet with x terminals on it and i think you ll find it much slower adrian nye o reilly and associates
comp.windows.x	help sunview on olwm xview x r hi i just compiled the x r distribution for a sun sunos i also compiled the public domain xview with olwm distribution i have some old rd party application binaries that are sunview programs how do i get them to work under xview and olwm i tried using the openwindows version svenv program but it did not work i do not have news access that s why i am mailing this directly also is there an email alias where my questions can get to comp windows x or comp windows open look please respond to fwr bv fin af mil thanks shash shash chatterjee email fwr bv fin af mil ec software phone lockheed fort worth company fax p o box mz ft worth tx
comp.windows.x	re i need source for splines in article ppvhtinn fmsrl srl ford com glang slee srl ford com gordon lang writes in the xlib programming manual o rielly associates it is pointed out that routines for drawing splines is not included in xlib but extensions are publicly available i need spline routines which work within the x environment i have previously posted a similar request and got two responses both directing me to the interviews package at interviews stanford edu i got it but it is too much it looks like too much work to try to identify extract and modify relevant components i am looking for code that is not encumbered by a complex and extensive framework which is beyond our needs we just need the spline extensions to the xlib look in xfig it has two types of spline algorithms and is relatively simple xfig is available from export lcs mit edu in contrib r fixes xfig patches xfig tar z brian v smith bvsmith lbl gov lawrence berkeley laboratory i don t speak for lbl they don t pay me enough for that
comp.windows.x	re honors degrees do they mean anything i hear george bush remember him will receive an honors degree from some kuwaiti university for contributing to certain kuwaiti interests not too long ago do you think it would add much to his resume
comp.windows.x	re converting contents of x window to color postscript in article apr jwminhh hanse de wieck jwminhh hanse de jan wieck writes mbheprg problem with inews gateway file raju gurung writes jeff haferman haferman icaen uiowa edu wrote can somebody point me to source code for dumping the contents of an x window into a color postscript file i have written an app which brings up an x window and i want at the click of the mouse to dump the window into a postscript file i use xwd and xwd ps to do it from within a program i use xwd id xxxxx where xxxxx is the window id obtained from xtwindow widget he asked for sources the portable bitmap tools from jef poskanzer jef well sf ca us include filters to do that and much more btw the x tools come as sources the sillyness of most vendors lets you stuck with binaries anyway have a look onto xgrab xgrabsc it does the imho best job for this including compression o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	comp windows x getting more performance out of x faq archive name x faq speedups last modified how to maximize the performance of x monthly posting compiled by art mulder art cs ualberta ca more ram faster cpu s more disk space faster ethernet these are the standard responses you hear when you ask how to improve the performance of your workstation well more hardware isn t always an option and i wonder if more hardware is always even a necessity this faq list is a collection of suggestions and ideas from different people on the net on how you can the best possible performance from x windows on your workstation without purchasing more hardware performance is a highly subjective issue the individual user must balance speed versus features in order to come to a personal decision therefore this document can be be expected to contain many subjective opinions in and amongst the objective facts this document is specifically concerned with x there are of course many other factors that can affect the performance of a workstation however they are outside the scope of this document people seriously interested in the whole area of system performance might want to look at the o reilly nutshell handbook system performance tuning by mike loukides i m about of the way through reading it and it looks like a well written comprehensive treatment of system performance i m unaware of any other similar books ed table of contents introduction administrivia what about the other x faq window managers the x server which server locking the server into ram starting your server fonts about the resources file define your display properly clients a better clock for x a better terminal emulator for x tuning your client miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures a quicker mouse programming thoughts say what other sources of information author notes changed since last issue new since last issue introduction administrivia this document is posted each month on or around the th to the usenet news groups comp windows x news answers and comp answers if you are reading a copy of this faq which is more than a few months old see the last modified date above you should probably locate the latest edition since the information may be outdated if you do not know how to get those newsgroups and or your site does not receive them and or this article has already expired you can retrieve this faq from an archive site there exist several usenet faq archive sites to find out more about them and how to access them please see the introduction to the news answers newsgroup posting in news answers the main faq archive is at rtfm mit edu this document can be found there in pub usenet news answers x faq speedups if you do not have access to anonymous ftp you can retrieve it by sending a mail message to mail server pit manager mit edu with the command send usenet news answers x faq speedups in the message body what about the other x faq david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net maintains the informative and well written comp windows x frequently asked questions document its focus is on general x information while this faq concentrates on performance the comp windows x faq does address the issue of speed but only with regards to the x server the gist of that topic seems to be use x r it is faster than r please see the x faq for complete details window managers there are a lot of window managers out there with lots of different features and abilities the choice of which to use is by necessity a balancing act between performance and useful features at this point most respondents have agreed upon twm as the best candidate for a speedy window manager a couple of generic tricks you can try to soup up your window manger is turning off unnecessary things like zooming and opaque move also if you lay out your windows in a tiled manner you reduce the amount of cpu power spent in raising and lowering overlapping windows joe english joe trystero art com i ve found that a good font for tiling is x aka misc fixed medium r normal c iso it is the biggest font i know of that i can use on my sun x screen and still get two column terminal windows side by side on the display with no overlap other font suggestions will be accepted the x server which server make sure that your server is a proper match for your hardware if you have a monochrome monitor use a monochrome x server on my monochrome sun i haven t noticed much difference between the xsun colour server and xsunmono however it was pointed out to me that xsunmono is about k smaller and therefore should contribute to less paging thanks to jonny farringdon j farringdon psychol ucl ac uk michael salmon michael salmon eos ericsson se how your server was compiled can also make a difference jeff law law schirf cs utah edu advises us that on a sun system x should be compiled with gcc version or with the unbundled sun compiler you can expect to get very large speedups in the server by not using the bundled sunos compiler i assume that similar results would occur if you used one of the other high quality commercial compilers on the market locking the server into ram has anyone tried hacking the x server so that it is locked into ram and does not get paged eg via a call to plock does this help performance at all i ve had one inquiry on this topic and a few pointers to the plock function call but no hard evidence from someone who s tried it i am not in a position to give it a try thanks to eric c claeys ecc eperm att com danny backx db sunbim be juan d martin juando cnm us es starting your server joe english joe trystero art com if you start up a lot of clients in your xsession or whatever sleep for a second or two after launching each one after i changed my xclients script to do this logging in actually took less time we have a heavily loaded system without much core though this sounds crazy but i have confirmed that it works warner losh imp solbourne com provided me with a good explanation of why this works which i have summarized here when you start up an x server it takes a huge amount of time to start accepting connections a lot of initialization is done by the server when it starts this process touches a large number of pages any other process running at the same time would fight the server for use of the cpu and more importantly memory if you put a sleep in there you give the server a chance to get itself sorted out before the clients start up similarly there is also a lot of initialization whenever an x client program starts toolkits registering widgets resources being fetched programs initializing state and databases and so forth all this activity is typically memory intensive once this initialization is done the process has reached a steady state the memory usage typically settles down to using only a few pages by using sleeps to stagger the launching of your clients in your xinitrc you avoid them fighting each other for your workstation s limited resources this is most definitely a your mileage may vary situation as there are so many variables to be considered available ram local swap space load average number of users on your system which clients you are starting etc currently in my xinitrc i have a situation like sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm i ve experimented with sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm i ve even tried sleep exec start x clients script and then in start x clients script i had sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm the idea with this last one was to make sure that xinit had completely finished processing my xinitrc and had settled down into a steady state before the sleep expired and all my clients were launched all of these yielded fairly comparable results and so i just stuck with my current setup for its simplicity you will probably have to experiment a bit to find a setup which suits you fonts loading fonts takes time and ram if you minimize the number of fonts your applications use you ll get speed increases in load up time one simple strategy is to choose a small number of fonts one small one large one roman whatever suits you and configure all your clients or at least all your heavily used clients to use only those few fonts client programs should start up quicker if their font is already loaded into the server this will also conserve server resources since fewer fonts will be loaded by the server farrell mckay fbm ptcburp ptcbu oz au joe english joe trystero art com eg my main xterm font is x so i also have twm set up to use x in all it s menus and icons etc twm s default font is x since i don t normally use x i ve eliminated one font from my server oliver jones oj roadrunner pictel com keep fonts local to the workstation rather than loading them over nfs if you will make extensive use of r scalable fonts use a font server about the resources file keep your xresources xdefaults file small saves ram and saves on server startup time joe english joe trystero art com one suggestion in your xdefaults xresources file try putting only the minimum number of resources that you want to have available to all of your applications for example reversevideo true then separate your resources into individual client specific resource files for example home lib app defaults in your login file set the environment variable xuserfilesearchpath setenv xuserfilesearchpath home lib app defaults n the comp windows x frequently asked questions faq contains an excellent explanation of how these environment variables work ed so when xterm launches it loads its resources from app defaults xterm xdvi finds them in app defaults xdvi and so on and so forth note that not all clients follow the same xxxxx resource file naming pattern you can check in your system app defaults directory often usr x r lib x app defaults to find the proper name and then name your personal resource files with the same name this is all documented in the xt specification pg thanks to kevin samborn samborn mtkgc com michael urban urban cobra jpl nasa gov and mike long mikel ee cornell edu kevin is willing mail his setup files to inquirers this method of organizing your personal resources has the following benefits easier to maintain more usable fewer resources are stored in the x server in the resource manager property as a side benefit your server may start fractionally quicker since it doesn t have to load all your resources applications only process their own resources never have to sort through all of your resources to find the ones that affect them it also has drawbacks the application that you are interested in has to load an additional file every time it starts up this doesn t seem to make that much of a performance difference and you might consider this a huge boon to usability if you are modifying an application s resource database you just need to re run the application without having to xrdb again xrdb will by default run your xdefaults file through cpp when your resources are split out into multiple resource files and then loaded by the individual client programs they will not watch out for this i had c style comments in my xdefaults file which cpp stripped out when i switched to this method of distributed resource files i spent several frustrating days trying to figure out why my clients were not finding their resources xt did not provide any error message when it encountered the c style comments in the resource files it simply silently aborted processing the resource file the loss of preprocessing which can be very handy e g ifdef color is enough to cause some people to dismiss this method of resource management you may also run into some clients which break the rules for example neither emacs nor xvt will find their resources if they are anywhere other than in xdefaults when starting up a client on a machine that does not share files with the machine where your resources are stored your client will not find its resources loading all your resources into the server will guarantee that all of your clients will always find their resources casey leedom casey gauss llnl gov a possible compromise suggestion that i have and am planning on trying is to put resources for all my heavily used clients eg xterm into my xdefaults file and to use the separate resources files method for clients that i seldom use define your display properly client programs are often executed on the same machine as the server in that situation rather than setting your display environment variable to hostname where hostname is the name of your workstation you should set your display variable to unix or by doing this you access optimized routines that know that the server is on the same machine and use a shared memory method of transferring requests thanks to patrick j horgan pjh ras amdahl com see the display names section of the x man page for further explanation of how to properly set your display name i don t think it s stock mit but at least data general and hp have libraries that are smart enough to use local communication even when the display isn t set specially rob sartin opensi sartin uunet uu net jody goldberg jody algorithmics com sent me an xlib patch to change stock r to use local communication even if display is not properly set i don t want to get in the business of distributing or trying to juggle non mit patches and so have elected not to include it here hopefully mit will apply this minor lines patch themselves in the meantime if you want to try it yourself email jody ed clients if you only have a few megabytes of ram then you should think carefully about the number of programs you are running think also about the kind of programs you are running for example is there a smaller clock program than xclock unfortunately i haven t really noticed that programs advertise how large they are so the onus is on us to do the research and spread the word suggestions on better alternatives to the some of the standard clients eg xclock xterm xbiff are welcome ed i ve received some contradictory advice from people on the subject of x client programs some advocate the use of programs that are strictly xlib based since xt xaw and other toolkits are rather large others warn us that other applications which you are using may have already loaded up one or more of these shared libraries in this case using a non xt for example client program may actually increase the amount of ram consumed the upshot of all this seems to be don t mix toolkits that is try and use just athena clients or just xview clients or just motif clients etc if you use more than one then you re dragging in more than one toolkit library know your environment and think carefully about which client programs would work best together in that environment thanks to rob sartin opensi sartin uunet uu net duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk sinclair uk ac gla dcs a better clock for x xcuckoo suggested by duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk available on export lcs mit edu xcuckoo displays a clock in the title bar of another program saves screen real estate mclock suggested by der mouse mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu available larry mcrcim mcgill edu in x mclock shar non xt based extensively configurable it can be made to look very much like mit oclock or mostly like xclock purely by changing resources of course the ultimate clock one that consumes no resources and takes up no screen real estate is the one that hangs on your wall a better terminal emulator for x from the readme file distributed with xterm abandon all hope ye who enter here this is undoubtedly the most ugly program in the distribution ugly maybe but at my site it s still the most used i suspect that xterm is one of the most used clients at many if not most sites laziness isn t there a better terminal emulator available see below if you must use xterm you can try reducing the number of savelines to reduce memory usage oliver jones oj roadrunner pictel com jonny farringdon j farringdon psychol ucl ac uk xvt suggested by richard hesketh rlh ukc ac uk available export lcs mit edu in contrib xvt tar z if you don t need all the esoteric features of xterm then get hold of xvt it was written here just to save swap space as xterm is rather a hog this was written as a partial clone of xterm you don t have to rename your resources as xvt pretends to be xterm in it s current version you cannot bind keys as you can in xterm i ve heard that there are versions of xvt with this feature but i ve not found any yet update march i recently had a few email conversations with brian warkentin brian warkentine eng sun com regarding xvt he questions whether xvt really is at all faster than xterm for instance xvt may initialize slightly faster but compare scrolling speed try this quickie benchmark bin time dd if etc termcap bs and see which program can scroll faster also while xterm may be slightly larger in ram requirements we don t have any hard numbers here does anyone else shared libraries and shared text segments mean that xterm s paging requirements are not that major as an experiment he ripped out all the tek stuff from xterm but it made little difference since if you never use it it never gets brought into memory so here we stand with some conflicting reports on the validity of xvt over xterm in summary caveat emptor your mileage may vary if you can provide some hard data i d like to see it specifically how much ram each occupies how much swap each needs relative speed of each mterm suggested by der mouse mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu available larry mcrcim mcgill edu in x mterm src mterm ball o wax i also have my own terminal emulator its major lack is scrollback but some people like it anyway tuning your client suggestions on how you can tune your client programs to work faster from scott barman scott asd com comes a suggestion regarding motif text field widgets i noticed that during data entry into motif text field widgets i was getting a slight lag in response to some keystrokes particularly the initial one in the field examining the what was going on with xscope i found it it seems that when the resource xmnblinkrate is non zero and the focus is on a text field widget or even just a text widget the i beam cursor will blink every time the cursor appears or disappears in those widgets the widget code is making a request to the server copyarea the user can stop this by setting the resource xmnblinkrate to it is not noticeable on a mhz sparc but it does make a little difference on a slower system this specific suggestion can probably be applied in general to lots of areas consider your heavily used clients are there any minor embellishments that can be turned off and thereby save on server requests miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures don t use large bitmaps gif s etc as root window backgrounds the more complicated your root window bitmap the slower the server is at redrawing your screen when you reposition windows or redraw etc these take up ram and cpu power i work on a sun sparc and i m conscious of performance issues i can t comprehend it when i see people with a mb sun running xphoon as their root window i ll let someone else figure out how much ram would be occupied by having a full screen root image on a colour workstation if you re anything like me you need all the screen real estate that you can get for clients and so rarely see the root window anyway thanks to qiang alex zhao azhao cs arizona edu for reminding me of this one ed a quicker mouse using xset you can adjust how fast your pointer moves on the screen when you move your mouse i use xset m in my xinitrc file which lets me send my pointer across the screen with just a flick of the wrist see the xset man page for further ideas and information hint sometimes you may want to slow down your mouse tracking for fine work to cover my options i have placed a number of different mouse setting commands into a menu in my window manager e g for twm menu mouse settings mouse settings f title very fast xset m normal fast xset m system default un accelerated xset m default glacial xset m programming thoughts joe english joe trystero art com to speed up applications that you re developing there are tons of things you can do some that stick out for motif programs don t set xmfontlist resources for individual buttons labels lists et al use the defaultfontlist or labelfontlist or whatever resource of the highest level manager widget again stick to as few fonts as possible better yet don t use motif at all it s an absolute pig don t create and destroy widgets on the fly try to reuse them this will avoid many problems with buggy toolkits too use a line width of in gcs on some servers this makes a huge difference compress and collapse multiple expose events this can make the difference between a fast application and a completely unusable one francois staes frans kiwi uia ac be just a small remark i once heard that using a better malloc function would greatly increase performance of xt based applications since they use malloc heavily they suggested trying out the gnuy malloc but i didn t find the time yet i did some tests on small programs just doing malloc and free and the differences were indeed very noticeable somewhat times faster any confirmation on this from anyone ed andre beck andre beck irs inf tu dresden de unnecessary noexpose events most people use xcopyarea xcopyplane as fastest blit routines but they forget to reset graphics exposures in the gc used for the blits this will cause a noexpose event every blit that in most cases only puts load onto the connection and forces the client to run through it s event loop again and again thousands of xchangegc requests this gfx context switching is also seen in most handcoded x apps where only one or few gcs are created and then heavily changed again and again xt uses a definitely better mechanism by caching and sharing a lot of gcs with all needed parameters this will remove the load of subsequent xchangegc requests from the connection by moving it toward the client startup phase say what some contributors proposed ideas that seem right off the wall at first david b lewis by day dbl osf org by night david craft uunet uu net how about this swap displays with someone else run all your programs on the other machine and display locally the other user runs off your machine onto the other display goal reduce context switches in the same operation between client and server i m not in a situation where i can easily try this but i have received the following confirmation michael salmon michael salmon eos ericsson se i regularly run programs on other machines and i notice a big difference i try to run on a machine where i will reduce net usage and usually with nice to reduce the impact of my intrusion this helps a lot on my poor little ss with only mb it was essential when i only had mb casey leedom casey gauss llnl gov the x server and the client are competing for the same cpu as your server when you run it on the same machine not really a major problem except that the x client and the server are in absolute synchronicity and are context thrashing timothy h panton thp westhawk uucp firstly it relies on the fact that most cpu s are mostly idle x s cpu usage is bursty so the chances of you and your teammate doing something cpu intensive at the same time is small if they are not then you get twice the cpu memory available for your action the second factor is that context switches are expensive using cpu s halves them you pay a price due to the overhead of going over the network but this is offset in most cases by the improved buffering of a network typically k vs k for a pipe allowing even fewer context switches other sources of information volume in o reilly s x window system series x window system administrator s guide is a book all x administrator s should read adrian nye adrian ora com a lot more tips on performance are in the paper improving x application performance by chris d peterson and sharon chang in issue of the x resource an earlier version of this paper appeared in the xhibition conference proceedings this paper is absolutely essential reading for x programmers author notes this list is currently maintained by art mulder art cs ualberta ca suggestions corrections or submission for inclusion in this list are gladly accepted layout suggestions and comments spelling mistak s too are also welcome currently i have listed all contributors of the various comments and suggestions if you do not want to be credited please tell me speedup x faq is copyright c by arthur e mulder you may copy this document in whole or in part as long as you don t try to make money off it or pretend that you wrote it art mulder art cs ualberta ca do not be conformed to this world department of computing science but be transformed by the renewal university of alberta edmonton canada of your mind romans
comp.windows.x	re app defaults files hello when starting bx if you recieve an error message saying cannot load app defaults file check your xapplresdir environment variable and then put the file builderxcessory this is the app defaults file for bx in the directory specified by the xuserfilesearchpath environment variable if you don t have an xuserfilesearchpath environment variable then set xuserfilesearchpath to be the directory where the builderxcessory file is you can do this using the setenv command under csh note that the name ends in ad so you will have to set xuserfilesearchpath to bx n ad to get the app defaults to load correctly to make sure the the app defaults file can be read by all the users make sure that a copy of or a link to the app defaults file exists in usr lib x app defaults or usr openwin lib app defaults depending on how your system is set up once you have taken care of this set the systemdirectory resource to be the directory in which you have installed bx for example let s say i ve installed bx in t then my system directory resource should be set like this systemdirectory t builderxcessory thanks ics tech support
comp.windows.x	re xcopyplane question i am trying to use xcopyplane to copy a single plane from a depth pixmap to a depth pixmap everytime i try this i see absolutely nothing displayed i know there is data in the depth pixmap becuase i have checked by doing an xcopyarea to the screen i have been successful getting xcopyplane to work if i use two pixmaps of depth is there a problem with what i am trying to do could someone please scan my code segment and let me know where i am going wrong i have created a xmdrawingarea widget called canvas w id xtwindow canvas display xtdisplay canvas screen defaultscreen display pixmap xcreatepixmap display rootwindow display screen w width w height defaultdepth display screen pixmap xcreatepixmap display rootwindow display screen w width w height w gc xcreategc display w id null w gc xcreategc display pixmap null code to read xwd image into pixmap is omitted have you set the foreground and background colors in w gc to something other than and the whitepixel and blackpixel macros on your server may not return values suitable for depth drawables copy one plane into the depth pixmap xcopyplane display pixmap pixmap w gc w width w height are you sure that the fifth plane of the data isn t all the same you could have different pixel values in the image but the fifth plane x might all be the same value using the depth pixmap as the clipmask copy it to the screen values foreground fg color values clip x origin values clip y origin values clip mask pixmap mask gcforeground gcclipmask xchangegc display w gc mask values xfillrectangle display w id w gc w width w height if you just want to see the plane of data and want better performance don t use clipmasks just use pixmap as the stipple in a stippled rectangle fill many servers are very stupid about handling complex clip lists and turn a bitmap clip region into hundreds and hundreds of little clipping rectangles and clips every drawing primitive against every one of these little triangles actually i must also ask the faq s most popular reason why graphics don t show up do you wait for an expose event before drawing your rectangle other info x r patchlevel motif sun sparc running sunos thanks in advance nancie p marin net nancie neko css gov ensco inc mail pineda ct melbourne fl fax kenneth whaley kubota pacific computer inc email whaley kpc com walsh avenue santa clara ca
comp.windows.x	re ms windows vs motif gui design differences was re future of unix in article ik apr sneaker ctt bellcore com ik sneaker ctt bellcore com ik su yoo writes aab andy burgess aab cichlid com writes aab in apr texhrc uucp pyeatt texaco com larry d pyeatt writes aab some deleted if you look closely at motif you will see that it is just ms windows with more eye pleasing color and texture the only real difference is that an ms application window can contain other toplevel children while a motif application window launches its children out onto the desktop aab to those of you familiar with both guis is this correct my experience aab with x makes me think that this msw behavior is easily duplicated aab with x but i don t know msw another important difference is that msw doesn t have any window that handle sophisticated geometry management like xmform also i believe that in windows x you re limited to k of resources windows menus icons etc imho this whole discussion named motif looks like ms windogs is totally stupid the only thing remotely influenced here can be the motif window manager that features an arrangement of buttons and menus somewhat similiar to this of the ms w windowmanaging agent however its name is but mwm is only a small part of motif in fact mwm and motif can work without each other and if one doesn t like mwms outfit for some reason he switches to another windowmanager all this doesn t influence motif which is a toolkit of widgets to write applications and this toolkit is imho uncomparable to ms w because it is much more wellorganized and features alot of goodies more than the ms w interface you cannot say a porsche looks like a vw k fer only because they have the wheel and the gear at the same position motif and ms w are complete different worlds only one element of the motif world has some gear and wheel at the same position as ms w o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	x version of whois has an x version of whois been written out there if so where can i ftp it from thanks jesse w asher varco pruden buildings poplar ave suite memphis tn internet jessea vpbuild vp com uucp vpbuild jessea
comp.windows.x	gui study do users want to build solutions let me point out that both gui based word processors and text based formatters both have a language one happens to be mouse and action based and the other symbol based true but that s beside the point this is a fact about an abstract model of what the gui users are doing not about what they actually are doing this abstract model is only apparent from the perpective of a programmer of the system nb some users may see it too but only when they put aside the work at hand and start thinking like a programmer i m not saying that the programmer s perspective is evil or stunted after all that s what i do too i am saying that ui designers must carefully distinguish between the user programmer conceptual models and they must ultimately serve the user of the system not the builder of the system i don t recall the actual stats but something like in people can be categorized as a symbol manipulator it would be interesting to know more about the meaning and basis for this claim at any rate i don t think this is evidence that of users think like programmers bankers financial analysts structural engineers these are all people whose work you could characterize as primarily symbol manipulation but what they do is not programming and programming is not required to do what they do to restate my previous point yes users want to build their own solutions no they do not want to do programming to accomplish this
comp.windows.x	re is xlib thread safe in article aa alex lcs mit edu gildea expo lcs mit edu stephen gildea writes no the r xlib is not thread safe but we are working on it see my article in the x resource issue consortium members will have a multi threaded version soon and it will be part of r there is a multi threaded xlib version written do an archie search for mt xlib host export lcs mit edu location contrib directory drwxr xr x jul mt xlib location contrib mt xlib file rw r r jan mt xlib xhib ps z file rw r r jan mt xlib tar z location contrib mt xlib file rw r r jul mt xlib xhib ps z file rw r r jul mt xlib tar z et al eric overhead without any fuss the stars were going out the nine billion names of god yes you re very smart shut up in the princess bride
comp.windows.x	system file in tmp what is the directory x unix for in tmp when i start x it is created by the system this directory wasn t created by root and it contains an empty file x that is owned by me for a lot of au music ftp sounds sdsu edu then cat file au dev audio ub library catalog telnet bison acsu buffalo edu when in doubt ask xarchie xgopher or xwais
comp.windows.x	how do i change the text cursor in xterm i have just finished building x r on a running interactive unix sysvr and i am having a problem with xterm on any font larger that x it messes up characters that are types the cursor seems to be too large or splits into a reverse video outline block which changes when the pointer is moved into the window i am trying to use monospaced fonts not p fonts is there any way of changing the appearence of the block cursor is an xterm thanks john f skoda windows nt os for the s electronic learning facilitators inc c cobol for the st century bethesda md use ada unix and other socially dsc jfs imc med navy mil unacceptable systems dsc jfs imc med navy mil and before you flame i m an expos fan need i say more with disclaimer package
comp.windows.x	xwd i am trying to run xwd on a sun sparcstation ipx with sunos and openwindows i am using the motif window manager i have been unsuccessful in using xwd under motif i get the following when doing xwd out xwd dmp x error of failed request baddrawable invalid pixmap or window parameter major opcode of failed request x getimage resource id in failed request x serial number of failed request current serial number in output stream does anyone have any insight to this
comp.windows.x	window manager i currently use a window manager called ctwm which is very similar to hp s vuewm i e it has multiple workspaces is there a motif based window manager that has this same feature and is not a memory pig like vue mike michael l coe a mind is a terrible thing laboratory of applied logic university of idaho coe leopard cs uidaho edu coe snake cs uidaho edu
comp.windows.x	re x r and open look in article apr aedc vax af mil bonds aedc vax af mil writes i am reposting this because i am not sure my first post ever made it out i have built and installed x r on my sparcstation my aim is to run the mit x server but retain the openlook window manager i am sure this is not uncommon but i just want to make sure that i change and or delete everything that i need to for instance i can start xdm in rc local but how do i get rid of xnews the openlook window manager source is available on the mit contrib tapes or from export lcs mit edu i would suggest building this too rather than using the version from openwindows it is olwm v regards richard gooch
comp.windows.x	problems using graphic context with athena widgets i am creating a graphics program using the athena widgets i use xlib routines to install a custom graphics contex by obtaining the display and window variables with the xtwindowofobject and xtdisplayofobject the object was one of the sub widgets the problem occurs that whenever a button is pressed or a menu is selected the graphic contex reverts to the orginal one i tried moving the allocation of the graphic context before the allocation of the buttons but nothing changed i am preforming all of this manipulation before calling xtappmainloop thank you for any help leslie donaldson donaldlf cs rose hulman edu donaldlf nextwork rose hulman edu
comp.windows.x	re c toolkit directions in article imp hellnet org devil loki hellnet org gil tene writes i am trying to figure out the current c toolkit directions more simply i d like to know which c toolkit to bet on for use in a new long term project i have the same problem i have looked at motif wwl interviews gina and a few variations on the above i ve also done a cursory examination of rogue wave s view h i like view h s abstractions best of all of the toolkits i mentioned but the resulting code looks little like motif and i have little confidence that this software will catch on or otherwise result in significant longevity for my code gina allows you to write code which looks a great deal like motif and also makes interesting use of inheritance but the resulting code is almost too motif like and is certainly not significantly less verbose than equivalent c code interviews looks promising but i haven t found a free version with motif support and i m not confident how widely interviews with motif support will be adopted and what if any specific motif support will be available over time the other libraries produce code which is less motif like but which does not make sufficient use of the features of c to simplify my coding task at this point my inclination is to write my motif manipulation routines in c and invoke those routines from my c code using simple abstractions suited to my specific task later if osf or some credible standards setting body comes up with a c interface to motif i will change to that it does me no goo to write in c if my choice of interfaces leaves me with code which leaves me tied to an abstraction which is not consistent with the industry directions it s better to take a standard if inferior solution for now than to go with a slgihtly superior approach which will leave me with both useless code and useless skills a few years from now views h is the only library i d consider right now but in our environment we d end up spending nearly to use it and i can t justify it when it s likely to cause short term productivity decreases as we learn the new abstraction and is unlikely to be a sufficiently long lived solution for us to reap the benefits at the high end of the j curve brad brad daniels if money can t buy happiness daniels neosoft com i guess i ll have to rent it i don t work for neosoft and weird al yenkovic don t speak for my employer
comp.windows.x	fresco status i ve been hearing rumblings about fresco and it sounds like it may be what i m looking for but how far is it from release or at least some kind of availability how similar is it to interviews if i code to interviews will my code work with fresco how about motif i ve heard some mention of versions of interviews which support motif will it be feasible to use motif with fresco any information would be much appreciated brad brad daniels if money can t buy happiness daniels neosoft com i guess i ll have to rent it i don t work for neosoft and weird al yenkovic don t speak for my employer
comp.windows.x	re iconize a running application in article c ifj f u csn org doomer teal csn org john dumais writes i ve been trying to figure a way to programmatically iconize an application running under a motif window manager i have tried several approaches includeing sending events to the application s border window but to no avail anyone done this before i tend to use xiconifywindow to achieve this effect have you tried that brad brad daniels if money can t buy happiness daniels neosoft com i guess i ll have to rent it i don t work for neosoft and weird al yenkovic don t speak for my employer
comp.windows.x	re iconize a running application it doesnt matter what window mgr you running under you can use the x routine xiconfiywindow display w screen number display display window w int screen number as in xiconifywindow xtdisplay w xtwindow w does that perform what you want in article c ifj f u csn org doomer teal csn org john dumais writes newsgroups comp windows x path shearson com uupsi psinntp uunet haven umd edu darwin sura net wupost zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn teal csn org doomer from doomer teal csn org john dumais sender news csn org news nntp posting host teal csn org organization colorado supernet inc x newsreader tin pl date thu apr gmt lines i ve been trying to figure a way to programmatically iconize an application running under a motif window manager i have tried several approaches includeing sending events to the application s border window but to no avail anyone done this before thanks doomer joe bore life is short code hard jbore shearson com uunet shearson com jbore beeper
comp.windows.x	compiling clients on a sun ipx i m trying to set up an ipx for another group i copied all the x stuff that i compiled on my which runs sunos using gcc and most things run just fine however i did find a couple of bugs and when i try to recompile those clients on the ipx which runs i get ld undefined symbol xshapequeryextension xshapecombinemask i know that i can include libxext and get rid of those messages but i can t figure out why i get them on the ipx and not on the any ideas ned danieley ndd sunbar mc duke edu basic arrhythmia laboratory box duke university medical center durham nc or
comp.windows.x	re motif vs athena etc berry durian citr uq oz au andrew berry writes my impression is that most people use motif because their os vendor supplies it with x sunos users excluded and because it is similar in look and feel to ms windows and os pm personally i also prefer the look and feel of motif no flames please just an opinion seeing as motif has been adopted by sun ibm hp can t remeber the other members in the recent announcement i m sure you ll see it on virtually every workstation ie sun ibm hp and dec must make up the vast majority of all hardware i am also concerned by this prevalence of motif particularly from the point of view of writing and obtaining free software as the linux and bsd communities grow however i think that motif will lose some of its grip at least in the non commercial marketplace ports of motif to both bsd and linux are available for a fee of about this is cost recovery for the person who bought the rights to redistribute the activity in both the bsd and linux news groups pertaining to motif has been high i just wonder if this will also cause a divergence between commercial and non commercial software ie you will only get free software using athena or openlook widget sets and only get commercial software using the motif widget sets i can t see why if just about every workstation will come with motif by default and you can buy it for under for the free unix platforms i can t see this causing major problems side note all the x based code i am writing and will distribute freely when completed is based on motif because from a programmatic and also look and feel point of view i like it the best no flames on this one please bambi david j hughes bambi bu oz au senior network programmer comms development operation australia
comp.windows.x	sunview x no doubt this is an old question but i didn t find the answer in the faqs i could find so here goes i have a sunview application that i want to convert to x openlook motiv whatever i remember hearing quite some time ago that there are tools to accomplish this task a is that so b are they public domain c any good i e d advantages over reimplementing the interface myself thanks alex
comp.windows.x	mouseless operation in ol v wm mouseless operation is documented in the man pages for olwm and olvwm however i can t get it to work in either i have this line in my xdefaults openwindows keyboardcommands full that should do it i haven t rebound the keys am i missing something d
comp.windows.x	x server multi screen hi xperts some simple questions for you i ve seen a lot of different terms which seem to mean the same thing who can give an exact definition what these terms mean multi screen multi headed multi display x server zaphod mode is there a limit how many screens displays a single server can handle in an articel a read something about an upper limit of how is the capability called if i want to move the cursor from one screen display to another any hints welcome thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co at
comp.windows.x	motif mailing list is there any interest hello motif world a few days ago i posted my announcement for an update of motif i got several requests to send the bindings per e mail and i know of several people who have been using motif and there are probably a number of people i am not aware of who are also using motif my question is how many people out there would be interested to join a mailing list where people can ask questions about motif swap stories and give new ideas about new directions and improvements for the bindings this would benefit the user community as well as give me more insight in what people would like to see added to motif motif is still very much a voluntary project and this way i can make a list of priorities in what order things should be added or changed if you re interested in joining such a mailing list please take the time to reply to this message and tell me so when there is sufficient interest say about people or more a mailing list will be set up at my site and i will post the announcement of the newly created list to this and other newsgroups ronald van loon in theory there is no difference rvloon cv ruu nl between theory and practice dcv group utrecht the netherlands in practice however there is
comp.windows.x	creating bit windows on bit display how greetings i am using an x server that provides visuals pseudocolor bit truecolor bit and directcolor bit a problem occurs when i try to create a window with a visual that is different from the visual of the parent which uses the default visual which is tc in the xlib reference guide from o reilly one can read in the section about xcteatewindow something like in the current implementation of x when using a visual other than the parent s be sure to create or find a suitable colourmap which is to be used in the window attributes when creating or else a badmatch occurs this warning strangely enough is only mentioned in the newer editions of the x r guides however even if i pass along a suitable colourmap i still get a badmatch when i create a window with a non default visual the code looks like this cut here and you ll destroy your crt window create bit window on truecolour display dpy width height display dpy int width height window win xvisualinfo vinfo xsetwindowattributes attr fprintf stderr opening bit window n if xmatchvisualinfo dpy defaultscreen dpy pseudocolor vinfo fprintf stderr your display can t handle bit pseudocolor n exit fprintf stderr using visual x n vinfo visual visualid cmap xcreatecolormap dpy defaultrootwindow dpy vinfo visual allocnone xsync dpy false xinstallcolormap dpy cmap ommision of this line gives same result attr colormap cmap win xcreatewindow dpy defaultrootwindow dpy width height copyfromparent border width depth inputoutput class vinfo visual visual cwcolormap attr return win cut here and you ll destroy your crt executing this piece of code results in a badmatch error anybody who knows why if so please drop me a line take care bram stolk stolk fwi uva nl
comp.windows.x	xwd gif conversions hello anyone know of any source code i can get to either create window dumps in gif format or convert an xwd x window dump file into a gif really could be any format i can manipulate in dos i e pcx bmp etc later shane bm cleveland freenet edu uucp rutgers devon gizmonic csthomas god bless those pagans h simpson
comp.windows.x	german keyboard x r and sparc i have a sparc with a german type keyboard has anybody a patch for x r thanks in advance heinz josef claes email claes tigger turbo uni essen de
comp.windows.x	re printing ascii and above in article c g ce is noose ecn purdue edu achar ecn purdue edu lakshminarayana achar writes could some tell me how to print characters over ascii on a laser printer after being thrilled on being able to create them on my screen my enthusiasm has somewhat died down due to this setback well more information is required what computer are you using what operating system are you using what kind of printer are you using a postscript b hp pcl etc harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown or uu psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com or ftms brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
comp.windows.x	xwindows always opaque hi i wonder if it is possible for a parent window to paint over the area of its childs if it is not then how could it be possible to implement a rubberband across multiple xwindows to select the objects that are displayed one in each window hauke
comp.windows.x	available memory to the xserver how to get the actual size hello everybody i have a little question due to more features pex drag drop many applications when linked with for example motif instead motif need more memory in the xserver x terminals only have limited memory normally no swapping possible so my question is there a possibility to determine via x protocol calls the size of free memory available to the xserver so one can determine for example whether to start a pex application with the css on client side or on server side when there is enough memory please reply via e mail i ll summarize sincerly matthias matthias pfuetzner work home darmstadt frg zgdv wilhelminenstrasse lichtenbergstrasse pfuetzner igd fhg de pfuetzner zgdvda uucp keith packard said r is different from r that s why we changed the release number
comp.windows.x	xswarm enhancement has anybody the xswarm enhacemened to use it with more than one wasp please e mail me because i don t read this group any longer thanks in advance klaus klaus singvogel e mail kssingvo immd informatik uni erlangen de
comp.windows.x	changing olwm icons i was wondering if it s possible to change the window icons olwm uses for things like xterm most of the defaults are pretty lame any answer or where i can find one would be most appreciated thanks matt clark
comp.windows.x	re fresco status issue of the x resource the published proceedings of the th annual x technical conference has an paper by mark linton and chuck price titled building distributed interfaces with fresco the summary describes fresco formerly known as xc as an x consortium effort without doing a complete review of the paper i ll just mention the goals as stated in one section of the article the effort has the goal of providing the next generation toolkit with functionality beyond the xt toolkit or xlib features they want in fresco include lightweight objects such as interviews glyphs structured graphics resolution independence natural c programming interface edit in place embedding distributed user interface components multithreading this by no means captures the complete content of the paper the conclusions sections mentions that a rough draft specification should be available in early with no schedule paper presented in jan for a complete sample implementation i am not affiliated with any of the people or places mentioned above brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	re xwindows always opaque in article hess swt hess swt informatik uni hamburg de hauke hess writes hi i wonder if it is possible for a parent window to paint over the area of its childs if it is not then how could it be possible to implement a rubberband across multiple xwindows to select the objects that are displayed one in each window hauke if you specify the rootwindow when you are creating your gc you may use xlib to draw over multiple windows i have an application that does something similar for rubber banding curs move xcreatefontcursor disp data xc crosshair geom vals foreground blck pixl grey dark geom vals plane mask allplanes geom vals line width geom vals function gxxor geom vals subwindow mode includeinferiors evnt mask gcforeground gcplanemask gclinewidth gcfunction gcsubwindowmode geom gcon xcreategc disp data root iden evnt mask geom vals later i can move the rubber band or bands using the following logic void tselect move bands int delt xloc int delt yloc stuff deleted xdrawrectangle disp data root iden geom gcon sele pntr rootx sele pntr rooty sele pntr xlnth sele pntr ylnth undraw old one sele pntr papax delt xloc sele pntr papay delt yloc sele pntr rootx delt xloc sele pntr rooty delt yloc xdrawrectangle disp data root iden geom gcon sele pntr rootx sele pntr rooty sele pntr xlnth sele pntr ylnth draw new one more stuff deleted hope this helps brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	re motif vs athena etc in article c k ny azj kirk bu oz au bambi kirk bu oz au david j hughes writes i am also concerned by this prevalence of motif particularly from the point of view of writing and obtaining free software as the linux and bsd communities grow however i think that motif will lose some of its grip at least in the non commercial marketplace ports of motif to both bsd and linux are available for a fee of about this is cost recovery for the person who bought the rights to redistribute the activity in both the bsd and linux news groups pertaining to motif has been high i just wonder if this will also cause a divergence between commercial and non commercial software ie you will only get free software using athena or openlook widget sets and only get commercial software using the motif widget sets i can t see why if just about every workstation will come with motif by default and you can buy it for under for the free unix platforms i can t see this causing major problems i think you will find that the active linux and bsd communities are populated by enthusiasts who would object to paying any money for software otherwise they would probably have gone for a commercial unix an important factor in the linux community is that source code is always available this is probably similar in the bsd community however i m not really involved there many people using linux like to stay at the cutting bleeding edge ie when kernel patches c library or compiler patches come out people like to rebuild their entire systems the prime requirement for all linux software is that it is available under a gnu style public license hence linux software uses either the athena widgets or xview individuals may write software requiring motif but i doubt it is widely adopted regards richard gooch
comp.windows.x	re expose events please excuse my previous posting it was appended to this thread by accident robert
comp.windows.x	re expose events i posted about this a while ago but without code excerpts noone was able to help me the problem is that main win win is doing fine but when i create detail win win it does not receive it s initial expose events until main win win receives an event here are the relevent calls main win win xcreatesimplewindow mydisplay defaultrootwindow mydisplay myhint x myhint y myhint width myhint height main win line thick fg bg xsetstandardproperties mydisplay main win win main win text main win text none argv argc myhint main win gc xcreategc mydisplay main win win xmapraised mydisplay detail win win xmapsubwindows mydisplay main win win the event mask for main win is pposition psize structurenotifymask exposuremask keypressmask enterwindowmask leavewindowmask the flags are pposition psize i then create detail win win with the following calls hints has new values detail win win xcreatesimplewindow mydisplay defaultrootwindow mydisplay myhint x myhint y myhint width myhint height detail win line thick fg bg xsetstandardproperties mydisplay main win win detail win text detail win text none argv argc myhint detail win gc xcreategc mydisplay detail win win xmapraised mydisplay detail win win event mask and flags are identical to main win s flags and event mask if anybody has any idea why the initial expose events of detail win win are not received until main win win receives an event i d love to hear from them other that that everything works great so there must be some detail i m overseeing thanks for any tips robert rgasch nl oracle com
comp.windows.x	delayed expose events i posted about this a while ago but without code excerpts noone was able to help me the problem is that main win win is doing fine but when i create detail win win it does not receive it s initial expose events until main win win receives an event here are the relevent calls main win win xcreatesimplewindow mydisplay defaultrootwindow mydisplay myhint x myhint y myhint width myhint height main win line thick fg bg xsetstandardproperties mydisplay main win win main win text main win text none argv argc myhint main win gc xcreategc mydisplay main win win xmapraised mydisplay detail win win xmapsubwindows mydisplay main win win the event mask for main win is pposition psize structurenotifymask exposuremask keypressmask enterwindowmask leavewindowmask the flags are pposition psize i then create detail win win with the following calls hints has new values detail win win xcreatesimplewindow mydisplay defaultrootwindow mydisplay myhint x myhint y myhint width myhint height detail win line thick fg bg xsetstandardproperties mydisplay main win win detail win text detail win text none argv argc myhint detail win gc xcreategc mydisplay detail win win xmapraised mydisplay detail win win event mask and flags are identical to main win s flags and event mask if anybody has any idea why the initial expose events of detail win win are not received until main win win receives an event i d love to hear from them other that that everything works great so there must be some detail i m overseeing thanks for any tips robert rgasch nl oracle com ps the same message was accidentally appended to the expose events thread sorry for any confusion caused
comp.windows.x	x r and gateway hi i just got myself a gateway dx v and trying to configure x r for it has anyone done this before more specifically i need a correct xconfig file entry that is set up for my graphics card and monitor i have a color crystalscan fs monitor and a vesa local bus ati ultra pro with mb vram video card any help will be extremely appreciated thanks in advance please send replies to christy alex qc ca christy
comp.windows.x	cursor size problems apologies for those who have read this before but no one has solved this one yet so i m posting again sorry i m having problems creating a cursor bigger than x i m using motif x r running hp ux all the functions return valid results but no cursor appears when the bitmap is bigger than the aforementioned size i tried using the following code unsigned int w h xquerybestcursor xtdisplay programarea xtwindow programarea w h to return the nearest size to what i require however it returns and as the width and height respectively what am i doing wrong and if not how can i get round the problem thanks in advance mike
comp.windows.x	re need pd x y plot package steve steve frysinger of blue feather farm spf cbnewsl cb att com writes steve folks steve i m looking for a public domain x y plotting package for x steve i need basic capabilities axes labels log and linear c steve it s hard to imagine that someone has not put such a thing steve together so i m hoping to avoid reinventing the wheel steve thanks for any leads steve steve frysinger your might take a look a plplot version c actually beta v can be found anonymous ftp from hagar ph utexas edu in the pub plplot directory mark mark stucky email united technologies research center mark ardnt res utc com east hartford ct or mbs rcinet res utc com or mbs utrc res utc com from the readme file of version c this is the plplot distribution plplot is a scientific plotting package for many systems small micro and large super alike despite its small size and quickness it has enough power to satisfy most users including standard x y plots semilog plots log log plots contour plots d plots mesh plots bar charts and pie charts multiple graphs of the same or different sizes may be placed on a single page with multiple lines in each graph different line styles widths and colors are supported a virtually infinite number of distinct area fill patterns may be used there are almost characters in the extended character set this includes four different fonts the greek alphabet and a host of mathematical musical and other symbols the fonts can be scaled to any size for various effects many different output device drivers are available system dependent including a portable metafile format and renderer the plplot package is freely distributable but not in the public domain the plplot source code except header files and those files explicitly granting permission may not be used in a commercial software package without consent of the authors you are allowed and encouraged to include the plplot object library and header files in a commercial package provided that it is explicitly and prominently stated that the plplot library is freely available and the full copyrights on the plplot package be displayed somewhere in the documentation for the package we welcome suggestions on how to improve this code especially in the form of user contributed enhancements or bug fixes if plplot is used in any published papers please include an acknowledgment or citation of our work which will help us to continue improving plplot also please remember that as plplot is not a commercial product we cannot be expected to offer the kind of support that a commercial product may there is great interest in extending plplot and fixing bugs but the principal authors can only afford to work on it part time improvements will necessarily focus on those which help us get our work done plplot is written in c enabling it to run on many platforms practically without modification fortran programs may use it transparently stub routines are provided to handle the c fortran interface without any modification of the user program c programs are required to include the header file plplot h see the documentation for more details the main documentation for plplot is in the doc directory in the form of several tex files please consult this for additional information latex plotdoc unfortunately documentation tends to lag actual improvements to the code so don t be surprised if some known features are not explained there consult changes log to see a list of recent changes at present plplot is known to work on the following systems unix sunos a ix hp ux unicos dg ux ultrix sysv linux amiga exec ms dos os next for more information on how to get or use plplot on your system see appendices to the plplot manual system specific documentation in the appropriate sys system directory to become a subscriber to the plplot mailing list send a request to plplot request dino ph utexas edu credits plplot is the result of the effort of many people so it is impractical to list all the contributors those currently supporting and otherwise responsible for the package in its present form include maurice lebrun please send all comments flames patches etc to me i am responsible for all the plplot kernel development as well as most of the work on the metafile xwindow xterm postscript tektronix and amiga drivers email mjl fusion ph utexas edu usmail dr maurice lebrun institute for fusion studies university of texas austin tx geoff furnish please send questions regarding the ms dos and os drivers to geoff email furnish fusion ph utexas edu usmail geoff furnish institute for fusion studies university of texas austin tx tony richardson creator of plplot b please send questions regarding installation of plplot on the next to tony email amr egr duke edu usmail tony richardson tony richardson electrical engineering chapel hill road apt d duke university durham nc durham nc ph ph
comp.windows.x	macx color problem i have a peculiar color problem with macx apple s macintosh x server i d like to know if others have seen the same problem it s happened with the current version and with version when some types of client windows are displayed parts of the windows are in the wrong color if the window is moved slightly forcing the server to repaint it it is repainted in the correct colors it doesn t happen for xterm windows but has happened for graphic windows and with some motif clients stan kerr computing communications services office u of illinois urbana phone email stankerr uiuc edu
comp.windows.x	info wanted x security holes hi has anyone out there compile a list of x security holes if yes will you please send me a copy of this if this is a wrong group please point me to a right one thanks btw the list doesn t have to contain the info how to use the holes instead i need the info of how to detect the holes how to seal the holes and how to monitor the activities if possible any info is welcomed thanks eric grad student obviousness is always the enemy of jui lin lu eric correctness bertrand russell jlu cs umr edu univ of missouri rolla
comp.windows.x	need help with athena text widget i want to create a single line text widget for entering a small amount of text i want it to be of fixed width but have a horizontal scrollbar that scrolls automatically when the user types in order to keep the insertion point visible in trying to do this i have two problems the addition of the horizontal scrollbar does not make the text widget taller but instead it seems to cover part of the text the scrollbar does not scroll automatically as the user types in text in order to keep the insertion point visible any help is appreciated mike name michael strawbridge tele usmail national institute of standards arpa straw cam nist gov and technology uucp uunet cme durer straw rm b bldg gaithersburg md
comp.windows.x	widget for displaying images before i try to teach myself how to write a widget and perhaps re invent the wheel is there a pd widget that displays for example an bit grey level image in the same fashion that the athena plotter widget can be used to display a plot robert m cothren phd rim bme ri ccf org department of biomedical engineering the cleveland clinic foundation voice cleveland ohio fax
comp.windows.x	re dec pixmap size in article igd fhg de haase igd fhg de helmut haase goebel writes i ve got a problem concerning the maximum size of x pixmaps in decwindows i am using a decstation running ultrix v rev system and uws v rev decwindows our color display has x pixels on other hardware hp sgi i am able to allocate much larger pixmaps did anyone have similar problems before or does onyone know how i can configre my system to allow for larger pixmaps any suggestins are welcome please send mail to haase igd fhg de dec does this only for their px and pxg servers known as d accelerators this boards have local offscreen memory which is limited and slow to handle thus they set this limit o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	circular motif widgets will there be any support for round or circular widgets in motif s next release i d love to have a circular knob widget which could be used instead of a slider cheers dm
comp.windows.x	re x r and gateway in article daily planet concordia ca christy cs concordia ca christy writes hi i just got myself a gateway dx v and trying to configure x r for it has anyone done this before more specifically i need a correct xconfig file entry that is set up for my graphics card and monitor i have a color crystalscan fs monitor and a vesa local bus ati ultra pro with mb vram video card thanks in advance didn t your operating system come with x sysv usually does as far as i know you d do best to contact the people from whom you bought ths os if you re running linux or something similar good luck please send replies to christy alex qc ca christy a voice of reason in the midst of liberalnet mike chapman a higher lifeform trapped in a human body aka fourdee political correctness is the tool of the mentally disadvantaged i will not raise taxes on the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	re cursor size problems in article c ky l k compsci liverpool ac uk mbell csc liv ac uk mike bell writes apologies for those who have read this before but no one has solved this one yet so i m posting again sorry i m having problems creating a cursor bigger than x i m using motif x r running hp ux all the functions return valid results but no cursor appears when the bitmap is bigger than the aforementioned size i tried using the following code unsigned int w h xquerybestcursor xtdisplay programarea xtwindow programarea w h to return the nearest size to what i require however it returns and as the width and height respectively what am i doing wrong and if not how can i get round the problem does the workstation you re using have hardware cursor support or does the server generate a software cursor you can generally tell the difference just by using it if the cursor blinks a lot when there s screen activity it s probably a software cursor if it has a hardware cursor i think you re probably battling a bug in hp s x server i m not familiar with any hardware cursor chips that display cursors greater than x it s quite possible that the server is just echoing your preferred cursor size without actually checking it i vaguely recall that very old mit server revisions did just that in reality you re probably stuck with a x maximum size cursor regardless of what the server returns joel
comp.windows.x	virtual mouse in open look under x is the virtual mouse simulation in ol v wm x available under x r i ve been told i m setting the right resource yet it continues not to work i m running olvwm or olwm on a sun x r pl d
comp.windows.x	need xman source where can i get xman source i would rather get xman for an hp but source will do
comp.windows.x	why do i need xrdb m when xdefaults unchanged i m having an x resource problem using brian wilson s wscrawl a wonderful interactive conferencing program by the way i m running openwindows on a sparc under os i have the following defaults in my xdefaults file among many others wscrawl telepointername kevin wscrawl syncscrollbars true wscrawl continuoustelepointer true wscrawl showpointercoordinates false wscrawl background lightblue wscrawl swindow foreground yellow wscrawl draw area frame foreground blue wscrawl keyboardfocuspolicy pointer naturally i exited the server and restarted it after adding those lines to xdefaults if i run the following from a cmdtool pwd my home dir xrdb m xdefaults and then start up wscrawl then all those defaults are used properly wonderful yes except that i can t get them to be operative except by manually invoking the afore mentioned xrdb command if i try xrdb xdefaults the defaults won t take so i tried to change the xrdb call in my xinitrc file from xrdb home xdefaults to xrdb m home xdefaults no go so i tried adding in xrdb m home kbw xdefaults at the beginning or end of my openwin init file still no go any notions what gives thanks for the help kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
comp.windows.x	key definitions in emacs x hi i use emacs and i want to customize my keyboard better when i set up stuff in my emacs with a keymap and define keys i can only access certain of the keys on my x terminal s keyboard i can t get e g f home end pgup pgdn they all seem to have either the same or no keycode i have a feeling this can t be fixed in emacs itself but that i need to do some xmodmap stuff can someone help me by the way i ve checked the x faq and posted a similar message to gnu emacs help to no response currently i have the following in my emacs file inside a cond string match xterm getenv term done by aj i don t know what most of this does defvar xterm map make sparse keymap keymap for xterm special keys define key esc map xterm prefix fset xterm prefix xterm map keys f to f define key xterm map z goto line f define key xterm map z what line f define key xterm map z rmail f define key xterm map z replace string f define key xterm map z end of line f define key xterm map z kill line f define key xterm map z yank f define key xterm map z beginning of line f define key xterm map z end of line f define key xterm map z scroll down f define key xterm map z scroll up f keys f up down etc can t get the keys define key xterm map z set mark command andrew jaffe ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu dep t of astronomy and astrophysics u chicago s ellis ave chicago il fax
comp.windows.x	re property problems in article wsmart tay mcs dundee ac uk bill smart writes to get the number back the other client does appatom xinternatom display applicationwindow true xgetwindowproperty display defaultrootwindow display appatom false xa window return type return format nitems return bar return place and appears to get back something valid just not the right number it always seems to return the same number regardless of the window number stored in the property return place is probably incorrect it should be a pointer not an integer xgetwindowproperty allocates memory copies the data there and returns a pointer to the memory you should free the memory when you re done ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	looking for xt and xaw i want to compile xdvi and later perhaps emacs on a dec ultrix machine with x installed unfortunately xt and xaw libs and headers are missing how can i get them without having to compile the whole mit distribution pleasy reply by email to viola yukawa uni muenster de thanks in advance
comp.windows.x	problem with libxmu on sunos and gcc i am using x r patch with the r sunos patch posted on export i did optionally apply the patch olit libxmu compiles fine when i try to use it with clients i e bmtoa and twm i get errors i can not figure out what is wrong gcc fpcc struct return o twm gram o lex o deftwmrc o add window o gc o list o twm o parse o menus o events o resize o util o version o iconmgr o cursor o icons o o r usr wgep x r sos lib ld run path ld run path l lib xmu lxmu l lib xt l extensions lib l lib x l extensions lib lxext l extensions lib lxext l lib x lx l usr wgep x r sos lib lsocket lnsl ld warning file extensions lib libxext so attempted multiple inclusion of file libxext so undefined first referenced symbol in file xtappsetwarningmsghandler lib xmu libxmu so xtscreendatabase lib xmu libxmu so xtdisplaystringconversionwarning lib xmu libxmu so xterrormsg lib xmu libxmu so xtrealloc lib xmu libxmu so xtismanaged lib xmu libxmu so xtmalloc lib xmu libxmu so xtgetapplicationresources lib xmu libxmu so xtownselection lib xmu libxmu so xtgetconstraintresourcelist lib xmu libxmu so xtcalloc lib xmu libxmu so xtname lib xmu libxmu so xtstringconversionwarning lib xmu libxmu so xtappsettypeconverter lib xmu libxmu so xtdisplaytoapplicationcontext lib xmu libxmu so xtgetresourcelist lib xmu libxmu so xtfree lib xmu libxmu so xtdestroywidget lib xmu libxmu so xtgetvalues lib xmu libxmu so xtwarningmsg lib xmu libxmu so xttranslatecoords lib xmu libxmu so xtcvtstringtofont lib xmu libxmu so xtwidgettoapplicationcontext lib xmu libxmu so xtwarning lib xmu libxmu so xtcreatewidget lib xmu libxmu so xtwindowofobject lib xmu libxmu so xtvasetvalues lib xmu libxmu so xtappwarningmsg lib xmu libxmu so xtgetselectionvalue lib xmu libxmu so xtresolvepathname lib xmu libxmu so ld fatal symbol referencing errors no output written to twm error code douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products a division of western atlas international inc a litton dresser company internet acker wg waii com voice
comp.windows.x	help event propagation the following problem is really bugging me and i would appreciate any help i create two windows w child to root with event mask buttonpressmask keypressmask w child to w with do not propagate mask buttonpressmask keypressmask keypress events in w are discarded but buttonpress events fall through to w with subwindow set to w fyi i m using xnews olvwm am i doing something fundamentally wrong here n
comp.windows.x	re motif vs athena etc in article apr nrao edu rgooch rp csiro au richard gooch writes really involved there many people using linux like to stay at the cutting bleeding edge ie when kernel patches c library or compiler patches come out people like to rebuild their entire systems the prime requirement for all linux software is that it is available under a gnu style public license hence linux software uses either the athena widgets or xview individuals may write software requiring motif but i doubt it is widely adopted shameless plug the xaw d widgets make athena a much nicer alternative than the stock mit athena code mike michael j o connor internet mjo fmsrl srl ford com ford motor company opeo uucp fmsrl opeo mjo rotunda bldg phone dearborn mi fax
comp.windows.x	re sunview x no doubt this is an old question but i didn t find the answer in the faqs i could find so here goes i have a sunview application that i want to convert to x openlook motiv whatever i remember hearing quite some time ago that there are tools to accomplish this task a is that so b are they public domain c any good i e d advantages over reimplementing the interface myself the simple answer is for you to obtain use xview to do this xview is a one to one replacement for sunview it should already be provided with you sun running openwindows it is also free available as part of the contrib side of the mit x r release patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	re motif vs athena etc in article c k ny azj kirk bu oz au bambi kirk bu oz au david j hughes writes berry durian citr uq oz au andrew berry writes ports of motif to both bsd and linux are available for a fee of about this is cost recovery for the person who bought the rights to redistribute the activity in both the bsd and linux news groups pertaining to motif has been high i just wonder if this will also cause a divergence between commercial and non commercial software ie you will only get free software using athena or openlook widget sets and only get commercial software using the motif widget sets i can t see why if just about every workstation will come with motif by default and you can buy it for under for the free unix platforms i can t see this causing major problems let me add another of my concerns yes i can buy a port of motif for cheap but i cannot get the source for cheap hence i am limited to using whatever x libraries the motif port was compiled against at least with older versions of motif i have been told that motif can be used with any x but i have not seen it myself currently i have x r running on eight different unix platforms of which only three came with motif on those three i am unable to use the x r libraries to build motif clients because i get link errors between the vendor supplied port of motif and my x r i anticipate having this same problem when x r becomes available the result is that i cannot build motif clients that rely on x r since i do not have motif compiled under x r true i could buy another port of motif but that sort of ruins the whole idea of free doesn t it cheers tom mcconnell tom mcconnell internet tmcconne sedona intel com intel corp c phone w chandler blvd the opinions expressed are my own no one in chandler az their right mind would claim them
comp.windows.x	image processing packages under x i am looking for a package that implements standard image processing functions reading writing from standard formats clipping zoom etc implemented under x both public domain and private packages are of interest the particular application area i have in mind is medical imaging but a package meant for a more general context would be acceptable please reply to me i will summarize on the net if there is general interest prateek mishra mishra sbcs sunysb edu
comp.windows.x	re xcopyplane question in article aa neko css gov nancie neko css gov nancie p marin writes i am trying to use xcopyplane to copy a single plane from a depth pixmap to a depth pixmap everytime i try this i see absolutely nothing displayed i know there is data in the depth pixmap becuase i have checked by doing an xcopyarea to the screen the code fragment looks reasonable but is your logic valid just because something appears in an bit deep pixmap doesn t mean every bit plane contains data did you try each plane ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	re changing dpy max request size in article c zlo wa world std com oj world std com oliver jones writes in article netnews upenn edu mcclenne dingdong cis upenn edu nennelccm nodrog writes does anyone out there know how to change the maximum request size for a server it is ordinarily set to the highest value the underlying os can yes and you don t want to change this value if you re running image type applications steve o o hsteve hydra unm edu hsteve carina unm edu just say no to vms
comp.windows.x	re interface to access separate appl in article aa expo lcs mit edu dbohdal jaguar ess harris com writes dear xperts here s my problem i am designing several related x applications each one is a separate executable and i d like to build a single control window that would allow the user to access each application instead of having to locate the correct icon the control window would contain a button for each application and by pressing it the application s main window would appear i would also like to use the application s button as a color status indicator has anyone done this or have any good ideas because these are all separate executables this seems like a communications nightmare to me but maybe i m wrong i d appreciate any ideas i m using x r and motif thanks dbohdal jaguar ess harris com i can think of two different methods that you could try use fork and execv use the system called in your program i m assuming that you re running under the unix os of course steve o o hsteve hydra unm edu hsteve carina unm edu just say no to vms
comp.windows.x	opinions on galaxy we are currently evaluating gui builders initially for motif but with a wish to be flexible portable we have been through the popular names uimx teleuse xvt etc and have been very impressed with what we have seen of galaxy from visix i have spoken to current users from a list supplied by visix happy users as you would expect and seen favourable comments on the net however since it is fairly expensive to get an evaluation license from visix i would like to query the net for any negative experiences with galaxy did anybody evaluate them and prefer another tool or use galaxy and regret it or find any mis features advthanksance phil phil m gray voice macdonald dettwiler fax commerce parkway richmond bc canada v v j pmg mda ca uunet van bc mdavcr pmg
comp.windows.x	keyboard focussing i have two motif widgets i would like to control one of them via the keyboard and the other with the mouse i set the keyboard focus on the first widget but as soon as i click the mouse on the second one i lose the keyboard focus on the first one could some kind soul show me how to do this thanks dm dev hollywood acsc com
comp.windows.x	re key definitions in emacs x in article apr midway uchicago edu ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu andrew jaffe writes i use emacs and i want to customize my keyboard better when i set up stuff in my emacs with a keymap and define keys i can only access certain of the keys on my x terminal s keyboard i can t get e g f home end pgup pgdn they all seem to have either the same or no keycode i have a feeling this can t be fixed in emacs itself but that i need to do some xmodmap stuff can someone help me it is actually worse than you think i have the same problem and have given up emacs has an internal table somewhere which defines what keys it will accept and this table is system dependent i use a sun from my hp and cannot get shift pageup to work xmodmap is not sufficient or at least i haven t worked out how to make it work however i can get ordinary pageup and shift cursorright to work and i do some customised things with them note that the emacs on my hp has no problem and i am using exactly the same xmodmap and emacs configuration nick maclaren university of cambridge computer laboratory new museums site pembroke street cambridge cb qg england email nmm cus cam ac uk tel fax
comp.windows.x	re problem with libxmu on sunos and gcc in article qmt i io ep wg waii com dla se wg waii com doug acker writes i am using x r patch with the r sunos patch posted on export i did optionally apply the patch olit libxmu compiles fine when i try to use it with clients i e bmtoa and twm i get errors i can not figure out what is wrong gcc fpcc struct return o twm gram o lex o deftwmrc o add window o gc o list o twm o parse o menus o events o resize o util o version o iconmgr o cursor o icons o o r usr wgep x r sos lib ld run path ld run path l lib xmu lxmu l lib xt l extensions lib l lib x l extensions lib lxext l extensions lib lxext l lib x lx l usr wgep x r sos lib lsocket lnsl ld warning file extensions lib libxext so attempted multiple inclusion of file libxext so undefined first referenced symbol in file xtwindowofobject lib xmu libxmu so ld fatal symbol referencing errors no output written to twm error code the problem was that sunpost ld was not defined douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products a division of western atlas international inc a litton dresser company internet acker wg waii com voice
comp.windows.x	xterm build problem in solaris continuing on my build problems i got stuck here build xterm gcc fpcc struct return o xterm main o input o charproc o cursor o util o tabs o screen o scrollbar o button o tekproc o misc o vtprstbl o tekprstbl o data o menu o o r usr wgep x r sos lib ld run path ld run path l lib xaw lxaw l lib xmu lxmu l lib xt lxt l extensions lib lxext l lib x lx l usr wgep x r sos lib lsocket lnsl ltermcap undefined first referenced symbol in file index usr ucblib libtermcap a termcap o rindex usr ucblib libtermcap a termcap o ld fatal symbol referencing errors no output written to xterm error code make fatal error command failed for target xterm any clues for help douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products a division of western atlas international inc a litton dresser company internet acker wg waii com voice
comp.windows.x	dynamic changing of the title bar i am looking for a program i can insert into some code that will allow the title bar to be changed on a window dynamicly if one already is out there i would appreciate a location so i don t have to create this from scratch thanks in advance bob hosid dloslv xerox
comp.windows.x	mit r on sun with rasterops tc colorboard is it possible to run an mit r based xserver on a sun with a rasterops tc colorboard bit board i have the xsun patches for supporting sun s bit frame buffers but does the rasterops appear as if its a cgtwelve or something else i know nothing about the rasterops other than we might be buying one to put in an ipx cheers mark
comp.windows.x	re svr x binary dists was re rfd to create comp unix sys univel in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu der mouse wrote you seem to be a little confused the socialistic hackers who yell about proprietary software are hardly enamored of motif which is just as objectionable to that mindset as news is if i might wear my socialistic hacker hat for a moment i tar news and motif with the same brush and that brush is not technical begging everyone s pardon i was not slamming motif nor was i necessarily plugging flaming the two i was responding to the sweet blithe statement in rick digibd from rick digibd digibd com rick richardson rick this is one area where microsoft nt has a big advantage since rick they control the whole show there are no issues like this where rick licensees create incompatible defacto standards this happy statement shows a mindset that inventors and companies have when they are pleased with something that works and they believe that others will also be happy to use it i remember when sunview was hot stuff and am not by that statement endorsing sun and its products this is just my experience and when openwindows became hot stuff that was when i started hearing as mentioned before the socialistic masses that were bent on destroying anything that was deemed proprietary including openwindows i mentioned motif in the same breath because that is what sun has decided to turn its attention to not because i hate it mr richardson s position i believe is a healthy one and i am sure that the seething hackers will soon try to flame and destroy nt if it ever shows up wanting instead everything to be free and then complaining when there is no organized structure and there are no de facto standards it was just a vent for frustration brought on by prevailing winds mrs henne
comp.windows.x	c and c for os hi folks does anybody know for a good bit c c compiler for os that supports os api and microsoft windows maybe windows nt thanx n marovac sdsu
comp.windows.x	xrolo spacrc sunos audio could some one please send me or tell me where to ftp from the patches required for xrolo so that i can compile in the sparcstation phone dialing feature i am using sunos and therefore don t have multimedia libaudio h or multimedia audio device h and associated functions just in case our mail gateway only accepts msgs kb thanks in advance shash shash chatterjee email fwr bv fin af mil ec software phone lockheed fort worth company fax p o box mz ft worth tx
comp.windows.x	imake book review thanks for the many offers to review this book if you received a review copy please return it as soon as possible i had a system crash and lost the list of people i sent it to thanks adrian nye o reilly and associates adrian ora com
comp.windows.x	multi screen apps and window managers i am working on a project to provide an emergency management information system in keeping with more classic command and control type systems we are considering developing a dual screen monitor system in order to provide a status board on it s own monitor i have a number of x level questions regarding this we are devloping on unix systems using x motif platform will be predominantly sun s probably with ports to rs as well i am assuming the standard dual monitor systems are configured such that we are talking about one x display and multiple screens and not multiple x displays given this is changing input focus from one screen to the other as simple as tracking your mouse from one screen to the other there s nothing special that needs to be done to shift focus between screens do i have to run separate window managers on the separate screens or are there multiscreen window managers out there what are they who sells them is a multi screen window manager the only way i can grab a window frame and move a window from one screen to the next is there any way for the application to transparently see multiple screens as one logical x y plane or does the hardware only provide for each screen to start at any thoughts on the difficulties involved with designing a system capable of using either multiple screens or a single screen perhaps running a virtual window manager to simulate multiple screens instead i am assuming that this is not a major issue that i can rely on providing config files which will specify for each configuration the screen placement of each window in the application any thoughts or suggestions from past experience are more than welcome jo pelkey phone battelle pacific northwest labs fax mail stop k email je pelkey pnl gov p o box richland wa
comp.windows.x	ideal operating system was death blow to unix g day windows nt is a step forward but not by much i guess for dos users who think multi tasking is really neat add puke here and are overjoyed to be able to use more than k of memory its a major improvement for windows users its more like an upgrade with facilities most unix users take for granted most of windows users only use pcs for text processing or running rd party applications anyway so the operating system features are not even a real issue my ideal operating system binary compatible across all plaforms it should recognize binaries and configure on the fly so i don t have to have bin mac bin dos bin dec bin sun bin hp etc multi cpu so i can use the cpus on my pc and w s and mac and transputers and dsps i don t know a single site which has gone for a single vendor i am not going to trade in mflops per h transputer or ultra fast fft on dsp chips note nt runs on symmetric multi cpu systems built in portable gui graphics tools you can call drawbutton or drawline and it does the same thing no matter what platform or display it should also translate graphics commands on the fly so i can use pc graphics s w on my workstation and x software on my pc i think guis are not just nice to have but essential configurable front end so you can make it look like unix or dos or nt or os and run shell scripts or command bat files object oriented so i can program easily under it and not have to re invent the wheel if the networking is not up to scratch or my application needs to access source object code on the fly in other words it should have some ai capability that and a tight clean kernel so you can actually understand it anyone know of something like this adios ata mail dr ata etemadi blackett laboratory space and atmospheric physics group imperial college of science technology and medicine internet arpanet earn bitnet atae spva ph ic ac uk or ata c mssl ucl ac uk span spva atae or msslc atae
comp.windows.x	please ignore ideal operating system was death blow to unix whoops wrong group soooooooooooooooorry folks
comp.windows.x	re trouble compiling x r on sunos in article apr head cfa harvard edu dmm head cfa harvard edu david meleedy writes i ve been trying to compile x r patchlevel on a sun sparc ipx using sunos and gcc the problem occurs during the initial make world when it gets up to compiling the standard x clients it can t seem to find some of the libraries right now we highly suspect the program ld which was updated for yip we had the same problem the only fix we found was to link static some of the clients btw we used cc francisco j ballesteros a k a nemo email nemo clip dia fi upm es org computer science clip lab phone campus montegancedo s n u p m boadilla del monte madrid spain o
comp.windows.x	re x server multi screen rainer sun eeam elin co at rainer hochreiter writes hi xperts some simple questions for you i ve seen a lot of different terms which seem to mean the same thing who can give an exact definition what these terms mean multi screen multi headed multi display x server zaphod mode is there a limit how many screens displays a single server can handle in an articel a read something about an upper limit of how is the capability called if i want to move the cursor from one screen display to another any hints welcome thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co at as to how many clients may be display on a server i believe the limit would be how much memory is available to your server or allocated by the server indecision is the key to timothy e neto flexibility you can t of b t s gadget widget works e mail god flight systems lab boeing comm aircraft my ideas not boeing s internet ten aw fsl ca boeing com
comp.windows.x	motif maling list hi all anyone knows of a motif mailing list i don t have access to network news and there is no longer a motif list at alfalfa com thanks joel joel reymont z code software corporation e mail joel z code com redwood hwy suit b san rafael ca
comp.windows.x	raster and text widgets view only xew version version of xew widgets is available at export lcs mit edu contrib xew tar z export lcs mit edu contrib xew readme for better details check the readme for extensive details you have to with xew ps z still haven t had time to update this one no new functionality has been added since version raster widget handles now expose events slightly more intelligently than before really had to do this when i added a simple program that uses x r athena porthole and panner widgets the program demo viewer c is very simple demonstration of panner porthole usage copied from editres actually markku savela savela tel vtt fi technical research centre of finland telecommunications laboratory otakaari b sf espoo finland
comp.windows.x	re xterm build problem in solaris dla se wg waii com doug acker writes continuing on my build problems i got stuck here build xterm gcc fpcc struct return o xterm main o input o charproc o cursor o util o tabs o screen o scrollbar o button o tekproc o misc o vtprstbl o tekprstbl o data o menu o o r usr wgep x r sos lib ld run path ld run path l lib xaw
comp.windows.x	re a question on window ids in article wnk aquifer geology uiuc edu wnk aquifer geology uiuc edu walter kreiling writes given a program running on a workstation with an x based window system how can one pop the window in which it is running to the top by window i mean the terminal window from which it was invoked one can t the application may not have been started from a terminal emulator if it was the terminal emulator may not still exist and if it does it may be in no condition to be pop ped to the top eg it may be iconified and even if you can it may not do what you want consider a virtual root window manager like tvtwm with the relevant window in a portion of the virtual desktop that s outside the real desktop some but not all x terminal emulators provide environment variables giving a window id even if such a thing is present in the environment it may not be what you want it may correspond to a window on a different server for example der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
comp.windows.x	re x server multi screen in article qlop sgp sun eeam elin co at rainer sun eeam elin co at rainer hochreiter writes i ve seen a lot of different terms which seem to mean the same thing who can give an exact definition what these terms mean multi screen multi headed multi display x server zaphod mode as applied to servers the first three are fuzzy terms multi headed tends to be used for any system with multiple monitors sometimes even multiple screens even if they re multiplexed onto the same monitor eg a sun with a cg display multi screen and multi display would if taken strictly mean different things but since the strict meaning of multi display would refer to a system with multiple keyboards and pointers when it s used it probably refers to the same thing multi screen would a system that provides multiple screens zaphod is a term applied to the way the mit server switches the pointer from one screen to another by sliding it off the side of the screen is there a limit how many screens displays a single server can handle in an articel a read something about an upper limit of there is a protocol limitation that restricts a given display to at most screens i know of no server that handles multiple displays on a single invocation unless possibly my kludges to the r server can be looked upon as such on a tcp based system there is necessarily a limit of displays per machine but this is not a limitation inherent to x what you read was most likely talking about a limit in some particular implementation probably the mit one if it claimed there was a limit of inherent to x the author of the article had no business writing about x der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
comp.windows.x	re creating bit windows on bit display how in article apr fwi uva nl stolk fwi uva nl bram writes i am using an x server that provides visuals pseudocolor bit truecolor bit and directcolor bit lucky dog a problem occurs when i try to create a window with a visual that is different from the visual of the parent which uses the default visual which is tc in the xlib reference guide from o reilly one can read in the section about xcteatewindow something like in the current implementation of x when using a visual other than the parent s be sure to create or find a suitable colourmap which is to be used in the window attributes when creating or else a badmatch occurs this warning strangely enough is only mentioned in the newer editions of the x r guides it applies with equal force to earlier versions presumably only recently did the author s decide it was important enough to mention the necessity it refers to has always been there but it s been implicit in the way createwindow requests default some attributes of the new window however even if i pass along a suitable colourmap i still get a badmatch when i create a window with a non default visual attr colormap cmap win xcreatewindow copyfromparent border width depth inputoutput class vinfo visual visual cwcolormap attr this is because the warning you read is incomplete you have to provide not only a colormap but also a border the default border is copyfromparent which is not valid when the window s depth doesn t match its parent s specify a border pixmap of the correct depth or a border pixel and the problem should go away there is another problem i can t find anything to indicate that copyfromparent makes any sense as the border width parameter to xcreatewindow your xlib implementation probably defines copyfromparent as zero to simplify the conversion to wire format so you are unwittingly asking for a border width of zero due to the xlib implementation not providing stricter type checking to be fair i m not entirely certain it s possible for xlib to catch this der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
comp.windows.x	re available memory to the xserver how to get the actual size in article igd fhg de pfuetz igd fhg de matthias pfuetzner writes is there a possibility to determine via x protocol calls the size of free memory available to the xserver no even if you could the answer could be out of date even before you get it even if you grab the server it could be taken up by buffering user actions you should just try to do whatever you want a badalloc error is your indication that insufficient server memory is available der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
comp.windows.x	re xwindows always opaque distribution comp please don t misuse newsgroup hierarchy names as distributions in article hess swt hess swt informatik uni hamburg de hauke hess writes i wonder if it is possible for a parent window to paint over the area of its childs yes but it s not an attribute of the window it s an attribute of the gc used to do the drawing set the subwindow mode to includeinferiors rather than the default clipbychildren der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
comp.windows.x	re german keyboard x r and sparc claes polaris heinz josef claes writes i have a sparc with a german type keyboard has anybody a patch for x r export lcs mit edu pub sunkbd tar z maf martin forssen maf dtek chalmers se or maf math chalmers se system administrator at math and dtek at chalmers univ of technology
comp.windows.x	searching for xgolf i recently found the file xgolf on a german ftp site reseq regent e technik tu muenchen de but unfortunately the shar file was incomplete and the author s email address given in the readme file markh saturn ee du edu does not work can anyone assist by giving the location of a full version of this or any other golf game for x game or a way of contacting the author please reply by email if you can help ade adrian savage university of bradford uk email a f savage bradford ac uk
comp.windows.x	re searching for xgolf the xgolf program was an april fool s joke sigh steve hite shite sinkhole unf edu
comp.windows.x	re macx color problem stan kerr writes when some types of client windows are displayed parts of the windows are in the wrong color if the window is moved slightly forcing the server to repaint it it is repainted in the correct colors it doesn t happen i have the exact same problem when running hewlett packard s microwave design system mds from an hp unix box and running macx sys normally mds draws a window with a deep blue backround but occasionally it becomes a light blue and all the text etc inside the window become washed out nearly invisible i thought that it was just something brain dead that i was doing or a subtle conflict with another app or init by slightly moving the window and forcing a re draw the colors get corrected harry wolfson wolfson ll mit edu
comp.windows.x	re x r and open look in article apr nrao edu rgooch rp csiro au richard gooch writes in article apr aedc vax af mil bonds aedc vax af mil writes i am reposting this because i am not sure my first post ever made it out i have built and installed x r on my sparcstation my aim is to run the mit x server but retain the openlook window manager i am sure this is not uncommon but i just want to make sure that i change and or delete everything that i need to for instance i can start xdm in rc local but how do i get rid of xnews the openlook window manager source is available on the mit contrib tapes or from export lcs mit edu i would suggest building this too rather than using the version from openwindows it is olwm v i would suggest skipping olwm and getting olvwm instead this version of the olwm window manager implements a virtual desktop that i find really handy even on large monitors this version is also available at export lcs mit edu contrib olvwm tar z the readme file also suggest getting the files in contrib xview in my case i built the x server first xview second then olvwm all of these were installed into usr x once i verified the server worked correctly i happily issued rm rf usr openwin using gcc to build all of the above resulted in a windowing system that is for all intents and purposes identical to openwindows and that is incredibly faster there is a bit of tweaking you will have to do if you want things to work exactly like openwindows but not much paul bash techware design bash tware com boulder co u s a
comp.windows.x	request need tvtwm sources with mods from r j caley hello way back in the mists of time i had a set of patches written by richard caley i believe to the standars distribution patch level which added regular expressions in the tvtwmrc file multiple icon regions squeezable icons and f deleteordestroy function i still have the patches however i can no longer find the sources to which they applied i d appreciate if some kind soul could send me a pointer to where i could find the sources has anyone updated the patches for r richard are you out there pretty please thanks in advance manoj
comp.windows.x	is tek quitting xterm activities i caught up a mailmessage from an ncd guy who stated that tek might be quitting it s x terminal activities and would be looking for an interested buyer since the source of this message is ncd this might only be nasty gossip can anyone say more about this dick ahold nv room ankersmidplein ck zaandam the netherlands eec dick heijne ccsds ahold nl tel fax
comp.windows.x	re xdm and solaris the xdm on solaris was broke since two weeks sun distributes a patched release which works fine supports etc shadow and all we have it up and running ever since and have not experienced any problems call your local sun rep dick ahold nv room ankersmidplein ck zaandam the netherlands eec dick heijne ccsds ahold nl tel fax
comp.windows.x	re xterm build problem in solaris dla se wg waii com doug acker writes continuing on my build problems i got stuck here build xterm gcc fpcc struct return o xterm main o input o charproc o cursor o util o tabs o screen o scrollbar o button o tekproc o misc o vtprstbl o tekprstbl o data o menu o o r usr wgep x r sos lib ld run path ld run path l lib xaw lxaw l lib xmu lxmu l lib xt lxt l extensions lib lxext l lib x lx l usr wgep x r sos lib lsocket lnsl ltermcap undefined first referenced symbol in file index usr ucblib libtermcap a termcap o rindex usr ucblib libtermcap a termcap o ld fatal symbol referencing errors no output written to xterm error code make fatal error command failed for target xterm any clues for help either add lucb lelf to the list or define index and rindex to strchr and strrchr respectively both use same args former are bsd latter are sysv ahold nv room ankersmidplein ck zaandam the netherlands eec dick heijne ccsds ahold nl tel fax
comp.windows.x	compiling on sun hi i have a piece of x code that compiles fine on pmax ul pmax mach as well as sun mach but whenever it compiles on sun it gives me undefined ld errors sin cos pow floor get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass the following libraries that i linked it to are lxaw lxmu lxt lxext lx the makefile is generated off an imake template can anyone give me pointers as to what i m missing out to compile on a sun thanx wilson
comp.windows.x	x color bitmap editor needed hi folks does anybody know where i can find the color bitmap editor around the public sites any information i do appreciate that c chang
comp.windows.x	re anyone have experience with visix galaxy in article c m r world std com grier world std com the political crony writes the title line says it the galaxy package was just recently announced and includes a gui builder and portable toolkit i m interested in any feedback from those who may have used it thus far we ve been using it for a year on unix sun and hp and windows platforms in my opinion it is the best toolkit on the market it supports a rich api to a high level ipc mechanism file system abstraction memory management command driven application development drawing geometry management and oh yeah open look motif ms windows and mac at the flip of a switch thanks jim grier grier world std com greg pasquariello grp unify com hobnobbing with the ancients unify corporation or uunet unify grp
comp.windows.x	is it just me or is this newsgroup dead i ve gotten very few posts on this group in the last couple days i recently added it to my feed list is it just me or is this group near death robert l mcmillin surf city software rlm helen surfcty com dude include std disclaimer h
comp.windows.x	re trouble compiling x r on sunos nemo aguirre dia fi upm es francisco j ballesteros writes the problem occurs during the initial make world when it gets up to compiling the standard x clients it can t seem to find some of the libraries right now we highly suspect the program ld which was updated for yip we had the same problem the only fix we found was to link static some of the clients btw we used cc or use a sunos ld bernhard
comp.windows.x	re xterm build problem in solaris on apr gmt dla se wg waii com doug acker said doug nntp posting host se wg waii com doug continuing on my build problems i got stuck here build xterm doug undefined first referenced doug symbol in file doug index usr ucblib libtermcap a termcap o doug rindex usr ucblib libtermcap a termcap o doug ld fatal symbol referencing errors no output written to xterm actually the problem is that you have to build with ld library path unset as well as ld run path douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products a division of western atlas international inc a litton dresser company internet acker wg waii com voice
comp.windows.x	re trouble compiling x r on sunos in article schneck physik tu muenchen de schneck physik tu muenchen de bernhard schneck writes nemo aguirre dia fi upm es francisco j ballesteros writes the problem occurs during the initial make world when it gets up to compiling the standard x clients it can t seem to find some of the libraries right now we highly suspect the program ld which was updated for yip we had the same problem the only fix we found was to link static some of the clients btw we used cc or use a sunos ld or read fixes and to the mit distribution this is a known problem just apply those fixes and set sunpost fcsld to yes and osteenyversion in mit config sun cf to in fix if you are running sunos and you apply sun s ld patch then you will need to edit your site def and add this line to the aftervendorcf section define sunpost fcsld yes in fix if you are running sunos change osteenyversion in mit config sun cf to have a value of in fix brief notes on what this patch fixes config make on sunos fails unless tree previously built in sean welch
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm in apr samba oit unc edu naoumov physics unc edu sergei naoumov writes hey guys i work on many stations and would like this name and current logname to be in a title of xterm when it s open and a machine name only when it s closed in other words i want host and logname to appear as a title of opened xterm and host when xterm is closed how can i do it thnsks in advance serge serge gluttony astro unc edu almost all window managers twm mwm olwm and their derivates support escape sequences for it for your purpose put following into your login if you re using csh or tcsh for sh you have to modify it if term xterm then echo logname host g host g endif note stands for esc in vi you can enter it by pressing ctrl v and the esc same for g it means ctrl g in vi press ctrl v and then ctrl g the first sequence puts the string into the title bar the second in the icon btw you can also put the current working directory in the title bar if you make an alias for cd alias cd cd echo logname host cwd g greetings thomas thomas wolfram thomas aeon in berlin de eantc tu berlin wolf prz tu berlin de
comp.windows.x	pointer feature hi i am trying to implement a pointer feature in xlib i have multiple windows and all can take input and show output simultaneously on all other displays i want to implement a pointer feature i would like to get the pointer to come up on all windows once i choose pointer in the menu and every one should be able to see it can you give me some hints as to how i should proceed replies will be greatly appreciated thank you prakash duvvuri cs odu edu
comp.windows.x	re x server multi screen from article apr eafs ca boeing com by ten eafs ca boeing com timothy e neto rainer sun eeam elin co at rainer hochreiter writes i ve seen a lot of different terms which seem to mean the same thing who can give an exact definition what these terms mean multi screen multi headed multi display x server zaphod mode is there a limit how many screens displays a single server can handle in an articel a read something about an upper limit of how is the capability called if i want to move the cursor from one screen display to another as to how many clients may be display on a server i believe the limit would be how much memory is available to your server or allocated by the server this all sounds suspiciously like my company might have something to do with this background first megatek has a series of framebuffers designed as x accelerators for the most part these are designed for sun sbus and sun and other vendor s vme systems that said megatek products support multi screen and or multi display on a sigle workstation most of our cards have a keyboard mouse port which can be used to provide additional displays for example say you hade a sparcstation with an sbus expansion chassis you could put in six frambuffers allowing a total of six screens in the system you could then attach from to keyboard mice allowing you to mix and match any combination of screens and displays you could have screen display screen displays screen displays or screen display and screen display basically any combination because of this we at megatek try to be very careful about the use of the words multi screen and multi display they are quite different in meaning and at least in x have exact definitions the reason i ramble like this is the mention of an upper limit if screens in a display as it so happens there s a define in the server that determines the most screens supported server include misc h maxscreens as released my mit this is as released by megatek this is as such the most screens supported by a single megatek display i e x server is if someone construed this to be a limitation of x i m sorry but clearly as pointed out so well by mr neto this is not the case we just did it here because nobody has ever asked us for more of course i could say buy all you want we ll support more rusty sanders megatek corp rgs megatek com or ucsd hplabs hp sdd ames scubed uunet
comp.windows.x	creating application contexts multiple times the subject does not describe the problem i am having very well please read on i am trying to write a function which creates an xtappcontext and a widget displays the widget for a while then destroys everything and returns the problem is that multiple calls to this function cause a variety of problems including depending on which calls i make to get rid of things core dump badpixmap x error widget not unmapped here is a simple c program i wrote to show the problem include x xlib h include xm xm h include xm pushb h void bla xtappcontext app display dis xopendisplay int junk widget top xtappinitialize app test null junk null null null widget box xtvacreatemanagedwidget blaaa xmpushbuttonwidgetclass top xmnheight xmnwidth null xtrealizewidget top same as xtappmainloop but with only xevents for int i i i xevent event xtappnextevent app event xtdispatchevent event what should i put here xtunrealizewidget top xtdestroywidget top xtdestroyapplicationcontext app xclosedisplay dis main for int i i i bla note that i rewrote xtappmainloop so that at a given time in this example after xevents the function will exit and return to the main program with this example i get the following error on about this is not consistent the th call to bla x error of failed request badpixmap invalid pixmap parameter major opcode of failed request x creategc resource id in failed request xe d serial number of failed request current serial number in output stream if i take out the xtunrealizewidget top line it just dumps core on the seconds call furthermore every time i call xtappinitialize other than the st time i get warning initializing resource lists twice warning initializing translation manager twice so finally my question is this what needs to be done in order to be able to call a function which creates an xtappcontext and widgets multiple times any help would be greatly appreciated please respond via email as i dont usually have time to read this group thanks very much davewood david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder
comp.windows.x	compiling help i d like to compile x r on a sony nws running news c the x distribution has support for this config and the release notes say it has been tested on the machine but also in the release notes nothing from sony is listed under the supported servers what am i supposed to use for my r x server then how can the os be supported but not the hardware is there something in the r binaries that can be used as the r server these may seem like silly questions but i m really confused mike hopper acs virginia edu i will not raise taxes on the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	re compiling help here s what i think have figured out all i need to do is install the r disitribution without the xserver like the sony cf file defines and all the new libraries utils etc will be installed and my old server from r will still work this will allow me to run xview and have x r up and running does the server interface remain the same with all changes made only to the libs another question is it likely that since sun is dropping ow support that the desktop utils like the file manager will be made public it would be nice if companies would make old code public for the benefit of those of us with smaller budgets mike hopper acs virginia edu i will not raise taxes on the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	xterm cursor forgive me if this is a faq i have checked the list but i cant find it i have a problem with the cursor within xterm on mono not grayscale monitors the problem is that when i have an character application that displays input fields in reverse video the xterm text cursor gets lost on the edge of the input field the solution would appear to be to set the xterm cursor to a line rather than a block but how do you do this i can t find any means although various sources seem to indicate it can be done when the xterm loses the input focus the cursor becomes an outlined block this would also be preferable but i can t seem to force this to be the default either configuration is motorola k x r please reply by email if poss thank you steve weet european mis motorola cellular subscriber group beechgreen court chineham basingstoke hants england phone e mail stevew chineham euro csg mot com fax mobile post w steve weet european mis motorola cellular subscriber group beechgreen court chineham basingstoke hants england phone e mail stevew chineham euro csg mot com fax mobile post w
comp.windows.x	now available xvertext now available xvertext summary xvertext provides you with four functions to draw strings at any angle in an x window previous versions were limited to vertical text rotation is still achieved using ximages but the notion of rotating a whole font first has been dropped what s new i ve added a cache which keeps a copy of previously rotated strings thus speeding up redraws where can i get it comp sources x soon export lcs mit edu contrib xvertext shar z now alan richardson you don t have to be school of maths physical sciences old to be wise univ of sussex brighton bn qh england judas priest uk mppa uk ac sussex syma elsewhere mppa syma sussex ac uk
comp.windows.x	waiting for a specific event callback hello world i want to write my xt application code like this do some work now i need some user input xmcreatedialog wait for user input input if input ok more work else other work so more work and other work are not in callback functions but the application simply waits for the user to answer the question how can i code this in my xt motif application thanks very much in advance greetings huub cwi p o box huub bakker huub cwi nl ab amsterdam the netherlands tel
comp.windows.x	re desqview x on a pc in article wl aecl ca harrisp wl aecl ca writes i use desqview x and i think it is great where it really shines imho is to let unix users log into a pc and run dos and windows applications with the display going to their screens you ll need to get desqview x v desqview x v suggested retail desqview x to other x systems v suggested retail you also must be running a supported network ftp softwares pctcp novell lan workplace for dos sun microsystems pc nfs beame and whiteside wollongong pathway tcpip or hp microsoft lan manager if you don t have any of this network stuff quarterdeck will give you a copy of novell tcpip transprot for dos with the network manager you can get more info by sending email to appropriately info qdeck com in my opinion if you want to have other people logging in and running applications at your pc you ll want to have a with megs of ram also the xwindows software in desqviewx really seems to like an et tseng labs chipset based graphics card personally i found that things ran better with a scsi drive in the pc than with esdi drives but that is my experience only good luck and best wishes phil what sort of traffic is generated with the x calls i am curious to find out the required bandwidth that a link must have if one machine running dv x is supporting multiple users clients and we require adequate response time anyone have any ideas george patapis pan metron ariston c s s c lane cove email gpatapis cssc syd tansu com au p o box a sydney south fax nsw australia voice
comp.windows.x	x and security x technical conference i had no possibility to join the th annual x technical conference january boston ma nevertheless i m interested in information about the tutorials exspecially about tutorial id a security title a survey of x and security tutorial id f admin title x and the administrator does anybody know where i can get information paper mail about these has anybody information about kerberos escpecially in connection with x display manager xdm thanks andrea winkler siemens nixdorf muenchen germany s i e m e n s andrea winkler internet andrea winkler sto mchp sni de sni sto xs otto hahn ring d munich n i x d o r f phone fax
comp.windows.x	re is it just me or is this newsgroup dead i ve gotten very few posts on this group in the last couple days i recently added it to my feed list is it just me or is this group near death seen from the mailing list side i m getting about the right amount of traffic patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	re svr x binary dists was re rfd to create comp unix sys univel in article rick digibd rick digibd digibd com rick richardson writes the other scary thing is that i ship libxcl so with the functions in it how many other libxcl so type libraries will be shipped by other vendors should i trademark the name libxcl a what if some clown uses that name and only puts of the troublesome functions in it does usl svr support ld run path a la solaris or an equivalent if so you can put the library in a package specific lib directory compile the app with ld run path defined and all should work besides i d say name it libpackagexcl a if possible cheers ato ian dickinson nic handle id this article is dedicated to vato csv warwick ac uk uknet warwick vato those who disapprove but i i s dickinson ou csv o warwick prmd uk ac admd c gb continue to c gb o university of warwick ou computing services cn ian dickinson read
comp.windows.x	icon animation hi folks as part of my self introduction to x i ve been trying to do some simple icon animation sort of like icondoit from mswindows changing your own applications icon is fairly simple if you have a widget id you can just xtsetvalues on xtniconifypixmap or whatever and you re done alternately you can set window manager hints these methods don t seem to work with icons which your application doesn t specifically own in my situation i have to change the icon of random windows sitting there in my icon box so my question is given a window id how do you change the icon pixure a working example would be very much appreciated if it makes any difference i m using motif on vms t ke thanks scott
comp.windows.x	r table widget causing trouble with xtquerygeometry contents problems with table widgets in r the following part of a program an user interface for a simulation system did work in r but refused to in r of cause the r version did not know about the xptablewidgetclass we used tablewidgetclass instead caught from the net in times of r and xptablechildposition formerly xttblposition since compiling with r the program causes a zero width or height error on sparc stations the trouble shooter is the re computation of the model init table table widget though its childs label and asciitext widgets exist xtquerygeometry returns a prefered width and height of zero thus the following asignment cannot perform anything else but set the width and height of the newly created widget to zero no wonder xtpopup or xtmanage child create zero width or height errors dependent on whether width and height of the shell widget are set in the resource file or not question does anyone know why xtquerygeometry returns so low prefered values when working on table widgets or perhaps what to do about i ll be happy if someone is able to help me germans are requested to answer in german siegfried kaiser email kaiser uniko uni koblenz de the part of interest graphischer neuaufbau des model init formulars storing the old width and height of the viewport widget which is the parent of the troubling table widget before the viewport widget is destroyed the destroying of widgets before resizing them is a relict from r age if model init popped up xtunmapwidget model init form view xtdestroywidget model init form view creating the subtree within the shell of which the root is the viewport widget n xtsetarg args n xtnfromvert model init title n xtsetarg args n xtnfromhoriz model init button view n xtsetarg args n xtnallowvert true n xtsetarg args n xtnforcebars true n model init form view xtcreatewidget form view viewportwidgetclass model init form args n n model init table xtcreatewidget table xptablewidgetclass model init form view args n create form widget does create and position table widget s childs to position them it uses xptable childposition in r and xttblposition in r create form widget ptr model init obj model init table the crucial function call intended to return the maximum height possible if there isn t sufficient space to show the whole table widget then the viewport shall grow as large as possible but not beyond the border of screen if there is enough space the window is intended to shrienk to the smallest possible height xtquerygeometry model init table null pref according to the algorithms idea the new value of viewport widget s height is selected unfortunately pref height leads to new height if form view height pref height new height pref height else new height form view height setting the new values to viewport widgets ancestors w xtnametowidget model init form form view xtresizewidget w width new height pref border width xtresizewidget model init form view width new height pref border width if model init popped up in case the shell which contains model init form view and model init table allready exists is has to be resized too n xtsetarg args n xtnwidth shell width n xtsetarg args n xtnheight shell height n xtsetarg args n xtnborderwidth shell bw n xtgetvalues model init shell args n xtresizewidget model init shell shell width shell height height new height shell bw end of if n xtsetarg args n xtnwidth width n xtsetarg args n xtnborderwidth bw n xtgetvalues model init button view args n xtresizewidget model init button view width new height bw xtresizewidget vert bar sbar width sbar bw resize inits if there is the shell s height set within the resource file the program terminates within the first xtmanagechild on its second pass through the observed function the first pass succeeds xtmanagechild model init form view xtmanagechild model init table if model init popped up in case the shell isn t popped up it has to be done if there is no value set to the shell s height within the resource file the program terminates here xtpopup model init shell xtgrabnone model init pop flag true set model init attributes end of if get actual init ptr actual load form ptr actual if someone suspects the creation of table widget s contents causes all the trouble there are the sources of create form create form widget ptr table t obj ptr widget table ptr is a linear list containing attributes and para meters of the model and additionally the correspon ding widgets arg args int n row col t obj ptr obj t ident ptr ident initialization of the local variables ptr obj ptr col row schleife ueber die objekte bzw das pseudo objekt fuer die parameter loop through the list of objects and pseudo objects every object occuring in the model has zero or more attributes and some parameters which can be shared by several objects because of locality the attributes of one object are listed in a second linear list of type t ident whereas the parameters which can belong to any ob ject are put together in a pseudo object thus the program loops through the list of objects and pseudo objects and for each object through the list of its attributes resp parameters while ptr obj t obj null each object and pseudo object is represented in a label widget n xtsetarg args n xtnlabel ptr obj name n ptr obj label w xtcreatemanagedwidget object labelwidgetclass table args n xptablechildposition ptr obj label w col row col row ptr ident ptr obj ident schleife ueber die objekt attribute bzw parameter while ptr ident t ident null each attribute and parameter is represented in a label and has a corresponding asciitext widget in which it is to be initialized n xtsetarg args n xtnlabel ptr ident name n ptr ident label w xtcreatemanagedwidget ident labelwidgetclass table args n xptablechildposition ptr ident label w col row col n xtsetarg args n xtnlength row length n xtsetarg args n xtnstring ptr ident text n xtsetarg args n xtnedittype xawtextedit n xtsetarg args n xtnwrap xawtextwrapword n xtsetarg args n xtnresize xawtextresizeheight n xtsetarg args n xtnusestringinplace true n ptr ident text w xtcreatemanagedwidget text asciitextwidgetclass table args n xptablechildposition ptr ident text w col row col row get next ident ptr ident end of while col get next obj ptr obj end of while end of create form widget so far the problem in detail
comp.windows.x	re motif maling list the motif mailing list will now be located at lobo gsfc nasa gov if you would like to be added or deleted from this list please send mail to motif request lobo gsfc nasa gov to mail to the list send mail to motif lobo gsfc nasa gov brian brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	re xcopyplane question in article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes actually i must also ask the faq s most popular reason why graphics don t show up do you wait for an expose event before drawing your rectangle suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the expose event handler take care of rendering the image because at that time it is guaranteed that the window is mapped the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is visible and mapped do you know the best way to tickle a window so that the expose event handler will be invoked to draw this new item
comp.windows.x	re xwindows always opaque hess swt informatik uni hamburg de writes i wonder if it is possible for a parent window to paint over the area of its childs if it is not then how could it be possible to implement a rubberband across multiple xwindows to select the objects that are displayed one in each window use a gc with the subwindow mode attribute set to includeinferiors the default is clipbychildren however beware if any of the children are of a different depth to the parent the semantics of this are undefined by the protocol gerard o driscoll gerard odriscoll dps co uk du pont pixel systems ltd
comp.windows.x	jb sgihbtn sierra com re xlib for ms windows not an xserver i think you may find that either quarterdeck deskview x or hummingbird exceed provide an xlib for dos perhaps they also have an xlib for ms windows it s a possibility yes exceed has windows version have ported some games like tetris works fine si c est vrai ce serait bien de se le procurer car a ce moment la le portage xt suis je en train de perdre mon temps avec la toolkit c marc bassini marc ccv fr marc cnam cnam fr computers communications visions c v bd haussmann paris france phone fax
comp.windows.x	how do you find a window id given its name i want to do the equivalent of an xwininfo name via a call or set of calls in xlib i need to map a windows name to its id it s probably easy but i ve only been programming in x for a little while i ve looked in the o reilly books and didn t find it and i also checked the faq and couldn t find it email to one of the following addresses and i ll post a response if it seems reasonable to do so guy guy l babineau virginia edu smarine uucp glb j sperry marine inc compuserve com
comp.windows.x	re waiting for a specific event callback in article charon cwi nl huub cwi nl huub bakker writes deleted in plain motify using a dialog in line like this simply isn t done you need to set callbacks from the buttons widgets in your dialog and let the callback routines do the work in the callbacks you can then carry on the flow of logic xview from sun actually supports this very neatly with a notify box which can return a status in line it does actualy ease coding but goes against the event driven style of an application summary redesign required delta hedging a long option position also generates a short gamma exposure and any return generated from delta hedging options can be thought of as compensation for assuming gamma risk radioactive investment management whew
comp.windows.x	re circular motif widgets if you re willing to do a little work you can make drawnbuttons do what you want more or less one of my colleagues here at ge crd has done just that in our internal lymb system we have a matrix transform class that makes it easy to compute a series of dial positions from a single set of vectors each set of vectors is then drawn into a pixmap clicking the button advances the knob s state and changes to the next pixmap in the sequence using drawnbuttons obviously still constrains you to taking up a rectangular portion of the parent widget but that s normally not a big shortcoming you can make things look circular enough skip montanaro crd ge com why can t x be this easy me after learning about dlopen
comp.windows.x	re creating bit windows on bit display how stolk fwi uva nl writes a problem occurs when i try to create a window with a visual that is different from the visual of the parent which uses the default visual which is tc you ve got to set border pixel in your window attributes the default is copyfromparent which gives the badmatch do this unsigned long valuemask if border width is non zero you d better alloc a colour from cmap rather than use any old pixel value also use valuemask it makes the code more obvious attr colormap cmap attr border pixel valuemask cwcolormap cwborderpixel win xcreatewindow dpy defaultrootwindow dpy width height border width see comment below depth inputoutput class vinfo visual visual valuemask attr a note on border width your code looked like this win xcreatewindow dpy defaultrootwindow dpy width height copyfromparent border width depth inputoutput class vinfo visual visual cwcolormap attr border width set to copyfromparent works but doesn t make sense border width should be an unsigned int you get away with it because copyfromparent is define ed to be zero in x h if it happened to be defined as you d get a very interesting looking window gerard o driscoll gerard odriscoll dps co uk du pont pixel systems ltd
comp.windows.x	re xvideo information the product you mention is xvideo from parallax graphics in santa clara california us you can read our product review in the jan feb issue of the x journal that issues focuses on multimedia and x in which there are also a number of other useful items including an article on video in an x window fax our new york office at for information on obtaining back issues steve steven mikes editor the x journal eastbrook rd martinsville nj office fax serving the x window system community
comp.windows.x	re xlib for ms windows not an xserver another company congruent corporation of new york city has also ported xlib xt and motif over to ms windows nt which provides full client development for x applications in an nt environment if you are porting interviews over to ms windows i thought interviews was a c toolkit with c classes if that is so how can it be built on xlib unless the classes are calling xlib functions steve steven mikes editor the x journal eastbrook rd martinsville nj office fax serving the x window system community
comp.windows.x	need shading program example in x do anyone know about any shading program based on xlib in the public domain i need an example about how to allocate correct colormaps for the program appreciate the help howard
comp.windows.x	re system file in tmp in article c jjig doy acsu buffalo edu lusardi cs buffalo edu christopher lusardi writes what is the directory x unix for in tmp when i start x it is created by the system this directory wasn t created by root and it contains an empty file x that is owned by me it s the unix domain socket local connection to your xserver try to rm it o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm in article c ol b aeon in berlin de thomas aeon in berlin de thomas wolfram writes hey guys i work on many stations and would like this name and current logname to be in a title of xterm when it s open and a machine name only when it s closed in other words i want host and logname to appear as a title of opened xterm and host when xterm is closed how can i do it almost all window managers twm mwm olwm and their derivates support escape sequences for it for your purpose put following into your login if you re using csh or tcsh for sh you have to modify it if term xterm then echo logname host g host g endif this is not a feature of the window manager but of xterm this sequences are not ansi compatible are they does anyone know if there are compatible sequences for this and what they are i would think they are dcs device control sequence introduced but may be a csi sequence exists too this must work on a dxterm vt and ansi compatible it may not work on xterms o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	x server problems hello i m trying to get x r running on my pc and ran into the following error message when trying to start the xserver setting tcp so dontlinger option not supported by protocol x version x windows system protocol version revision vendor release fatal server error no screens found giving up xinit software cased connection abort errno unable to connect to x xserver does anyone know what this error means has anyone experienced this problem help will be much appreciated thanks in advance please send replies to christy alex qc ca christy
comp.windows.x	solution why do i need xrdb m when xdefaults unchanged the short answer seems to be i don t the particular package wscrawl seems to reset all its defaults if any of them are missing from the xdefaults file once i added the missing ones to the xdefaults file the problem goes away kevin kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
comp.windows.x	icon box dear xperts i want to place a specific group of icons in an icon box and have my other icons appear outside of the box does anyone know if there s a way i can do this i m using x r and motif thanks dbohdal jaguar ess harris com
comp.windows.x	what inexpensive monochrome x station can you recommend can someone recommend an inexpensive monochrome x station that is not pc software emulation based please tell me manufacturer model price and any other significant specs thanks gregg weber let it be open and bright like the sky gregg netcom com without taking sides with no clouds of concepts kun mkhyen klong chen pa
comp.windows.x	xtranslatecoord problem it seems like xtranslatecoord doesn t work the way i expecting it right after performs a xmovewindow i want to know the absolute window position with respect to the root window to get this info i do a xtranslatecoordinates but the abs x and abs y aren t right does anybody know of a way to find out this information thanks please e mail to hsteve carina unm edu if it s possible steve o o hsteve hydra unm edu hsteve carina unm edu just say no to vms
comp.windows.x	re dec pixmap size in article igd fhg de haase igd fhg de helmut haase goebel writes if i try to create a pixmap larger than the size of my screen the program will terminate displaying the message x error badalloc insufficient resources many x servers supporting graphics accelerators do not allow the creation of pixmaps exeeding the size of the screen one workaround is to create several smaller pixmaps and add the results ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	re circular motif widgets in article bjg acsc com dev hollywood acsc com writes will there be any support for round or circular widgets in motif s next release i d love to have a circular knob widget which could be used instead of a slider how much support do you need i don t think there s anything that prohibits you from implementing such a widget though you will have to write your own versions of the functions that draw the d shadow and traversal highlighting ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	re desqview x on a pc in article qtk rn picasso cssc syd tansu com au gpatapis boyd tansu com au writes in article wl aecl ca harrisp wl aecl ca writes i use desqview x and i think it is great where it really shines imho is to let unix users log into a pc and run dos and windows applications with the display going to their screens you ll need to get desqview x v desqview x v suggested retail desqview x to other x systems v suggested retail you also must be running a supported network ftp softwares pctcp novell lan workplace for dos sun microsystems pc nfs beame and whiteside wollongong pathway tcpip or hp microsoft lan manager if you don t have any of this network stuff quarterdeck will give you a copy of novell tcpip transprot for dos with the network manager you can get more info by sending email to appropriately info qdeck com actually info qdeck com is our customer service department if you have technical questions you can write to support qdeck com in my opinion if you want to have other people logging in and running applications at your pc you ll want to have a with megs of ram also the xwindows software in desqviewx really seems to like an et tseng labs chipset based graphics card personally i found that things ran better with a scsi drive in the pc than with esdi drives but that is my experience only what sort of traffic is generated with the x calls i am curious to find out the required bandwidth that a link must have if one machine running dv x is supporting multiple users clients and we require adequate response time anyone have any ideas i expect the limiting factor will be your server machine not the network itself to give you a real world example here at quarterdeck we have roughly people using dvx to talk to a bunch of unix boxes novell file servers and each other it s not too much of a load on our ethernet with maybe concentrators so you have people on each segment if you had a badly loaded net or the apps you wanted to run were very network intensive you could run into some slowdowns but the biggest problem would be the machine itself say you have a with plenty of ram and a fast hard disk and network card if you have people running programs off it you re going to see some slowdowns because you re now on effectively a mhz of course dvx will attempt to see if tasks are idle and make sure they give up their time slice but if you have working programs running you ll know it having said that if you can tweak the programs being run by adding in calls to give up time slices when idle and that sort of thing you could probably run people on a given machine before you started seeing slowdowns again this time from network bandwidth it all really depends on what the programs are doing ie you re going to see a slowdown from x bandwidth a lot sooner if your apps are all doing network things also quarterdeck office systems internet support tom bortels pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs fax compuserve go quarterdeck q fax from touch tone phone for technotes on demand
comp.windows.x	xview slider hi netters i m using sliders in my xview apps usually with editable numeric field but i seem to have no control over the length of this field in some apps it appears long enough to keep several characters in some it cannot keep even the maximum value set by panel max value as i understand panel value display length which controls number of characters to be displayed in text items doesn t work in the case of slider despite the fact that panel h contains the following bit panel multiline text item panel numeric text item panel slider item and panel text item attributes panel notify level panel attr attr enum panel value display length panel attr attr int which gives a hint that this attribute can be used for sliders but setting this attribute gives nothing and xv get ting this attribute gives warning bad attribute and return value can someone share his experience in managing sliders in xview with me and clear this problem any help is very much appreciated yuri yuri uk ac hw phy
comp.windows.x	mysterious beeping article crossposted from hp windows author was andy defaria posted on mon apr gmt for some reason the following code causes my x application to beep whenever i intercept a keystroke and change it s meaning the intent of this code it to allow date fields the following special keys tt insert today s date bump day up by one bump day down by one i hardcoded some dates for this example perhaps i shouldn t be using an xmtext field for this for some reason the following code beeps whenever any of the special keys of tt are hit why the idea of this code is to interpret these keys having the special meaning implied by the code i would like to get rid of the beeping but as far as i can tell i m not doing the beep and am at a lose as to understanding who and why the beeping is occuring include x intrinsic h include xm xm h include xm rowcolumn h include xm mainw h include xm text h widget toplevel widget mainwindow widget mainpane widget datefield xtappcontext application void marktoday widget date char todaysdate xtvasetvalues date xmnvalue todaysdate null marktoday void marktomorrow widget date char tomorrowsdate xtvasetvalues date xmnvalue tomorrowsdate null marktomorrow void markyesterday widget date char yesterdaysdate xtvasetvalues date xmnvalue yesterdaysdate null markyesterday void datekeys widget callingwidget widget date xmtextverifyptr callbackdata capture the keys tt can change their behaviour if found set doit to false so x won t interpret the keystroke switch callbackdata text ptr case t case t marktoday date callbackdata doit false return case case markyesterday date callbackdata doit false return case case marktomorrow date callbackdata doit false return default return switch datekeys void main cardinal argc char argv initialize xt toplevel xtvaappinitialize application application null argc argv null null create the toolface mainwindow xtvacreatemanagedwidget mainwindow xmmainwindowwidgetclass toplevel null create a mainwindow mainpane xtvacreatemanagedwidget mainpane xmrowcolumnwidgetclass mainwindow null create a small text area datefield xtvacreatemanagedwidget datefield xmtextwidgetclass mainpane xmntopattachment xmattach form xmnrightattachment xmattach form xmncolumns null set modifyverifycallback to the datekeys callback xtaddcallback datefield xmnmodifyverifycallback xtcallbackproc datekeys xtpointer datefield realize the toplevel xtrealizewidget toplevel go into the xtmainloop xtappmainloop application main i swear by my life and the love of it that i will andrew defaria never live for the sake of another man nor ask hewlett packard another man to live for mine california language labs john galt defaria cup hp com i swear by my life and the love of it that i will andrew defaria never live for the sake of another man nor ask hewlett packard another man to live for mine california language labs john galt defaria cup hp com
comp.windows.x	re ms windows vs motif gui design differences was re future of unix ik su yoo ik mobydick leis bellcore com writes another important difference is that msw doesn t have any window that handle sophisticated geometry management like xmform is this an advantage to ms windows or to xt i used to think it was a big advantage for xt but i am not at all sure anymore david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer temp do not use v mail x and object guru tempory office b jet propulsion lab m s oak grove drive pasadena ca what s the earliest possible date you can t prove it won t be done by tom demarco
comp.windows.x	re looking for david e smyth zvi nynexst com zvi guter writes the author of wcl or the current care taker his is the only name i found in the dist tree i have tried to mail him at david smyth ap mchp sni de but the mail bounced back here i am david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer temp do not use v mail x and object guru tempory office b jet propulsion lab m s oak grove drive pasadena ca what s the earliest possible date you can t prove it won t be done by tom demarco
comp.windows.x	macro recorder player for x is there aything available for x similar to quickeys for the macintosh something that will allow me to store and playback sequences of keystrokes menu selections and mouse actions directing them towards another application if so could someone send me information on its availability and if not how hard do we think it might be to send input to other x applications and hopefully deal with their responses appropriately if an application is going to take a few seconds to process i probably have to wait for it to complete before sending another command thanks david
comp.windows.x	monthly question about xcopyarea and expose events nd posting of the question that just doesn t seem to get answered suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the same expose event handler that handles regular expose events e g window manager driven exposures take care of rendering the new image using an expose event handler is a proper way to do this because at the time the handler is called the xlib window is guaranteed to be mapped the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is already visible and mapped what we need to do is somehow tickle the window so that the expose handler is hit with arguments that will enable it to render just the part of the window that contains the new item what is the best way to tickle a window to produce this behavior
comp.windows.x	seeking user experience with x based test tools does anyone have any experience using xrunner capbak x or prevuex as an automated test tool for x please email me directly with opinions both positive and negative ann freeman siemens industrial automation inc johnson city tn aff tijc uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	drawing lines inverse xor i m trying to write some code that lets me draw lines and do rubber band boxes in motif x i m running on an bit display for which i ve created a colormap and am using almost all of the colors i want to draw the lines in a drawing area widget a widget in which i m displaying a bitmap using xputimage if doesn t matter if the lines i draw interactively stay around when the window is refreshed currently to draw interactively i begin with drawindex is an colortable index i reserve for the foreground my default bg color is the color index for the background of my image palette colors drawindex red palette colors my default bg color red palette colors drawindex green palette colors my default bg color green palette colors drawindex blue palette colors my default bg color blue xstorecolors mydisplay my cmap palette colors drawindex xflush mydisplay xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxxor xsetforeground mydisplay gc drawindex then to draw i do xdrawline mydisplay xtwindow drawingarea gc x y x y xflush mydisplay and when i m all done to return things to normal i do xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxcopy what i d like to happen is for the lines i draw to be the inverse of whatever i m drawing over instead what happens is i get white lines if the lines are over a white background nothing shows up if the lines are over a black area nothing shows up it s very strange but the gxxor function seems right since if i do a rubber banding box it erases and redraws itself correctly ie not disturbing the underlying image any suggestions what i m doing wrong david
comp.windows.x	re monthly question about xcopyarea and expose events in article buzz apr lion bear com buzz bear com buzz moschetti writes nd posting of the question that just doesn t seem to get answered how can we resist a questions that says something like this the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is already visible and mapped what we need to do is somehow tickle the window so that the expose handler is hit with arguments that will enable it to render just the part of the window that contains the new item what is the best way to tickle a window to produce this behavior if your expose event handler is truly intelligent about exposed rectangle information then you can use xcleararea to generate an expose event assuming that your background pixel is not none for the enclosing rectangle of your new item this is still not great since any other items contained within that rectangle will still be unnecessarily redrawn if your expose event handler simply redraws everything you ll be doing much more work than just drawing the new item on top of the existing scene mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com
comp.windows.x	how to put rpc in hp x motif environment hi has anybody implements an rpc server in the hp xwindows in sun xview there is a notify enable rpc svc call that automatically executes the rpc processes when it detects an incoming request i wonder if there is a similar function in hp x motif that perform the same function any help is appreciated nui chan nchan ctr columbia edu
comp.windows.x	mix gl with x xlib xt mwm i am developing an x xt xm application that will include a graphics window of some sort with moving symbols among other things a pure x application could be implemented with motif widgets one of which would be an xmdrawingarea for drawing with xlib but i would like to take advantage of the graphics library gl available on our ibm rs sgi s gl i believe is it possible to mix x and gl in one application program can i use gl subroutines in an xmdrawingarea or in an x window opened by me with xopenwindow i have never used gl before but the doc on gl winopen says that the first time winopen is called it opens a connection to the server also most of the gl calls do not require a display or gc unlike most x calls from this initial information it appears that x and gl cannot be mixed easily is this true does pex graphigs have the same functionality of gl environment aixwindows x r motif gl is available aix sys v ibm rs thanks in advance jay graham jade simulations international corp colonnade road suite nepean ontario canada x graham ottawa jade com
comp.windows.x	drawing an abstract graph i am looking for software to draw a graph i want to just give it a list of nodes and edges between the nodes and have the program come up with some reasonable positioning of it thanks in advance dan aronson dan think com thinking machines corporation
comp.windows.x	re monthly question about xcopyarea and expose events excerpts from netnews comp windows x apr monthly question about xcop buzz moschetti bear com a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the same expose event handler that handles regular expose events e g window manager driven exposures take care of rendering the new image hmmm clearly depends on your programming model it is not at all forbidden to draw outside the context of an expose event certainly any internal data structures should be maintained such that the visual appearance would be maintained properly whenever an expose event happens to be generated this doesn t preclude drawing immediately after updating the datastructures though rob
comp.windows.x	wanted critiques on multi windowing system toolkits any pointers to articles or personal opinions critiquing user interface toolkits that operate across many windowing systems e g x ms windows macintosh you know open interface xvt aspect if you reply with your opinion please briefly state your choice and a short discussion why steve maher maher outland gsfc nasa gov steve maher voice flight dynamics division maher kong gsfc nasa gov nasa goddard space flight center
comp.windows.x	re how to put rpc in hp x motif environment in article apr sol ctr columbia edu nchan nova ctr columbia edu nui chan writes has anybody implements an rpc server in the hp xwindows in sun xview there is a notify enable rpc svc call that automatically executes the rpc processes when it detects an incoming request i wonder if there is a similar function in hp x motif that perform the same function i ve been using the xrpc package for about a year now i believe i got it from export ian hogg ianhogg cs umn edu
comp.windows.x	colormap question hi experts i m kind of new to x the following question is strange to me i am trying to modify the contents of the colormap but failed without reason to me i am using the following piece of code toplevel xtinitialize argv testcolor null argc argv dpy xtdisplay toplevel scr defaultscreen dpy def colormap defaultcolormap dpy scr if xalloccolorcells dpy def colormap true null cells color pixel cells color red color green color blue color flags dored dogreen doblue xstorecolor dpy def colormap color printf n try to allocate the color d as d d d color pixel color red color green color blue xquerycolor dpy def colormap color printf n after allocate the color d is d d d color pixel color red color green color blue else printf n error couldn t allocate color cells running output try to allocate the color as after allocate the color is after xstorecolor xquerycolor just returned the original value no failure error displayed but the contents of colormap are obvious unchanged i also tried to draw a line using the colors but it turned out to be the unmodified colors so what is my problem how to modify the contents of the colormap any help information will be appreciated please send mail to yang cs umass edu william email yang cs umass edu by the way the following is the environment i am using output of xdpyinfo it shows the default visual is pseudocolor version number vendor string decwindows digitalequipmentcorporation uws vendor release number maximum request size longwords bytes motion buffer size bitmap unit bit order padding lsbfirst image byte order lsbfirst number of supported pixmap formats supported pixmap formats depth bits per pixel scanline pad depth bits per pixel scanline pad keycode range minimum maximum number of extensions adobe dps extension dpsextension shape mit shm multi buffering xinputextension mit sundry nonstandard dec xtrap default screen number number of screens screen dimensions x pixels x millimeters resolution x dots per inch depths root window id x depth of root window planes number of colormaps minimum maximum default colormap x default number of colormap cells preallocated pixels black white options backing store yes save unders yes current input event mask xd d keypressmask buttonpressmask buttonreleasemask enterwindowmask substructureredirectmask propertychangemask colormapchangemask number of visuals default visual id x visual visual id x class pseudocolor depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks x x x significant bits in color specification bits visual visual id x class grayscale depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks x x x significant bits in color specification bits visual visual id x class staticgray depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks x x x significant bits in color specification bits visual visual id x class staticcolor depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks x x xc significant bits in color specification bits visual visual id x class truecolor depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks x x xc significant bits in color specification bits number of mono multibuffer types visual id max buffers depth x visual id max buffers depth x visual id max buffers depth x visual id max buffers depth x visual id max buffers depth x number of stereo multibuffer types
comp.windows.x	re macx color problem in article kul ux cso uiuc edu kerr ux cso uiuc edu stan kerr writes i have a peculiar color problem with macx apple s macintosh x server i d like to know if others have seen the same problem it s happened with the current version and with version when some types of client windows are displayed parts of the windows are in the wrong color if the window is moved slightly forcing the server to repaint it it is repainted in the correct colors it doesn t happen for xterm windows but has happened for graphic windows and with some motif clients i expect what is going on here is that your colormap is full and when the new application starts up it cannot add the colors that it needs to the colormap it therefore has to pick and choose from the existing colors this makes it look ugly until it s window gets priority then macx changes the colormap so that the selected app is getting the exact colors it wanted but now other applications are having to make do with it s colormap this is a problem with all color x servers or at least all color xservers i have seen when the demands of the applications exceed the size of the colormap my solution is usually to avoid colormap greedy apps and display applications where color is just icing on the cake in monochrome mode rather than in color if this is an option for the application doug shaker voice fax email dshaker qualix com mail qualix group s norfolk st san mateo ca qualix maintains a mailserver with information files and demo versions of products if you would like more information on the mailserver send an email to qfacts qualix com or uunet qualix qfacts the email should take the following form begin send help send index end name address phone
comp.windows.x	forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window hi i m trying to figure out how to make a window manager place the window where the create window command tells it regardless of what it may think is right my application has reason to know better i don t want to set the override redirect because i do want all the embellishments that the window manager gives i just want the wm to accept my choice of location i ve tried twm tvtwm and mwm and they are all uncooperative thanks ethan
comp.windows.x	re mysterious beeping in article c qtkk wp cup hp com defaria cup hp com andy defaria writes article crossposted from hp windows author was andy defaria posted on mon apr gmt for some reason the following code causes my x application to beep whenever i intercept a keystroke and change it s meaning the intent of this code it to allow date fields the following special keys tt insert today s date bump day up by one bump day down by one i hardcoded some dates for this example perhaps i shouldn t be using an xmtext field for this for some reason the following code beeps whenever any of the special keys of tt are hit why the idea of this code is to interpret these keys having the special meaning implied by the code i would like to get rid of the beeping but as far as i can tell i m not doing the beep and am at a lose as to understanding who and why the beeping is occuring code deleted from the xmtextfield man page during discussion of resources xmnverifybell specifies whether a bell will sound when an action is reversed during a verification callback you are setting doit to false in the callback and text field is beeping as it should to turn off this behavior set this boolean resource to false tom mcfarland tommc cv hp com
comp.windows.x	re monthly question about xcopyarea and expose events nd posting of the question that just doesn t seem to get answered suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the same expose event handler that handles regular expose events e g window manager driven exposures take care of rendering the new image using an expose event handler is a proper way to do this because at the time the handler is called the xlib window is guaranteed to be mapped the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is already visible and mapped what we need to do is somehow tickle the window so that the expose handler is hit with arguments that will enable it to render just the part of the window that contains the new item what is the best way to tickle a window to produce this behavior if i understand your problem correctly you want to have a way to send exposures to your manager widget when your app specific code draws xlib graphics on the window it sounds like you might want to send an exposure using xsendevent and specifying a region if you know the region you need to send the exposure generally you have the bounding rectangle of the objects you can use xcreateregion to create a region xunionrectwithregion to add the new object polygons to the region and then either use the region to clip your gc for the redraw or use xrectinregion to test which of your other objects need to be redrawn keeping in mind that the stacking order of overlapping objects affects how they look hope it helps brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	ask the ftp address of kerberos version draft rfc 
comp.windows.x	how do i find my appcontext is there an xt call to give me my application context i am fixing up an x motif program and am trying to use xtappaddtimeout whose first argument is the app context what call can i use to give me this value thanks todd greene masc ucssun sdsu edu
comp.windows.x	re xcopyplane question in article buzz apr lion bear com buzz bear com buzz moschetti write in article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes actually i must also ask the faq s most popular reason why graphics don t show up do you wait for an expose event before drawing your rectangle suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the expose event handler take care of rendering the image because at that time it is guaranteed that the window is mapped the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is visible and mapped do you know the best way to tickle a window so that the expose event handler will be invoked to draw this new item what does this have to do with my original question i previously stated that i did an xcopyarea of the depth pixmap to the screen just to make sure that my image had data and it did this is not a problem with expose events it has to do with xcopyplane not working does anyone have a code fragment they could send demonstrating that xcopyplane works this would be very helpful thanks nancie p marin net nancie neko css gov ensco inc mail pineda ct melbourne fl fax
comp.windows.x	wcl for solaris is there a version of wcl that has been ported to solaris including ansi c i had numerous problems trying to compile wcl under solaris and the functions do not have prototypes i have wcl from the sun user group s cds please email answers as i am not on this list tom tulinsky capital management sciences west los angeles manually address answers to zuma tom netcomsv netcom com
comp.windows.x	re xwininfo i want to do the equivalent of an xwininfo name via a call or set of calls in xlib i need to map a windows name to its id it s probably easy but i ve only been programming in x for a little while do you have the x source code simply look in mit clients xwininfo xwininfo c and you will find out exactly how to do it adrian nye o reilly and associates
comp.windows.x	none i am working on a problem of scheduling classroom and i will like to know if you have some software papers or articles about it if you have something relate it please let me know thanks lorenza illanes
comp.windows.x	re xcopyplane question in article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes actually i must also ask the faq s most popular reason why graphics don t show up do you wait for an expose event before drawing your rectangle suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the expose event handler take care of rendering the image because at that time it is guaranteed that the window is mapped the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is visible and mapped do you know the best way to tickle a window so that the expose event handler will be invoked to draw this new item i specifically made the above comment assuming that perhaps the code fragment came from a simple open draw quit client as per your question why not have the button handler add the object and then call the window redraw or whatever directly although depending on how the overall application is structured there may be no problem with rendering the object directly in response to the button press ken kenneth whaley kubota pacific computer inc email whaley kpc com walsh avenue santa clara ca
comp.windows.x	mwm title drag crashes x server sigpipe environment mach arch sparc sun ipx os sunos x x r patchlevel motif i bring up x server using startx and usr bin x xsun the following sequence of actions crashes the x server sigpipe errno xinit reports that connexion to x server lost xinit xsun start mwm start a client with a dpi dpi font move the window by dragging the title bar the server dumps core due to sigpipe one of the two messages is printed connection to x server lost or connection broken errno i believe the first is reported by a client and the second by the server itself next i ran xdm in debug level after the same set of actions xdm reports select returns server for terminated unexpectedly status note the problem doesn t occur with other window managers twm or olwm i have not set ld library path i am not running font server if i start the client with fixed width font i do not see this problem my font path usr lib x fonts misc usr lib x fonts speedo usr lib x fonts dpi usr lib x fonts dpi i did mkfontdir in usr lib x fonts dpi usr lib x fonts dpi usr lib x fonts pex usr lib x fonts speedo and in usr lib x fonts misc this problem seems to occur only on ipx machines i do not see this problem on ipc workstations questions what the hell is goin on what does status mean of the server i d greatly appreciate any hints as to the cause of the problem s ramakrishnan cs dept mcbryde hall vatech
comp.windows.x	xlock i found an oddity with our sgi indigo mips r chip when xlock nolock is running and i am working remotely or in batch at mode the runtime of my programs as timed by using clock in the code itself is slower than if xlock is not running no other processes seem to affect my runtimes yet this is very consistent any explanations real or imagined thanx dale frostedflakes llnl gov
comp.windows.x	xt intrinsics slow popups help i am running some sample problems from o reilly volume xt intrisics programming manual chapter popup dialog boxes and so on in example page creating a pop up dialog box the application creates window with a button quit and press me the button press me pops up a dialog box the strange feature of this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the first time if i try to pop it up a nd time rd th time it is much slower has anyone any experience with these sample programs or why i get this behaviour fast response time for the first time but slow response time from nd time onwards anyone can give me some ideas on how to program popups so that each time they popup in reasonable fast response time thankyou shirley
comp.windows.x	re how to put rpc in hp x motif environment in article c r j gu news cis umn edu ianhogg milli cs umn edu ian j hogg writes in article apr sol ctr columbia edu nchan nova ctr columbia edu nui chan writes has anybody implements an rpc server in the hp xwindows in sun xview there is a notify enable rpc svc call that automatically executes the rpc processes when it detects an incoming request i wonder if there is a similar function in hp x motif that perform the same function i ve been using the xrpc package for about a year now i believe i got it from export glad to hear that it s working for you i couldn t find it on export however simon leinen simon liasun epfl ch has added an imakefile and an athena version and made it available for ftp in the file liasun epfl ch pub x contrib xrpc tar z note the z suffix you ll need gnu gzip also on liasun in pub gnu to uncompress it if this doesn t work send me a note and i d be happy to mail you a copy but you probably won t get it until the start of may i m on holidays as of tomorrow martin janzen janzen mprgate mpr ca mpr teltech ltd nelson way burnaby bc canada v a b p s are there any dublin x folks that want to go for a pint of guinness at say mulligan s
comp.windows.x	re drawing lines inverse xor i m trying to write some code that lets me draw lines and do rubber band boxes in motif x i m running on an bit display for which i ve created a colormap and am using almost all of the colors i want to draw the lines in a drawing area widget a widget in which i m displaying a bitmap using xputimage if doesn t matter if the lines i draw interactively stay around when the window is refreshed currently to draw interactively i begin with drawindex is an colortable index i reserve for the foreground my default bg color is the color index for the background of my image palette colors drawindex red palette colors my default bg color red palette colors drawindex green palette colors my default bg color green palette colors drawindex blue palette colors my default bg color blue xstorecolors mydisplay my cmap palette colors drawindex xflush mydisplay xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxxor xsetforeground mydisplay gc drawindex then to draw i do xdrawline mydisplay xtwindow drawingarea gc x y x y xflush mydisplay and when i m all done to return things to normal i do xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxcopy what i d like to happen is for the lines i draw to be the inverse of whatever i m drawing over instead what happens is i get white lines if the lines are over a white background nothing shows up if the lines are over a black area nothing shows up it s very strange but the gxxor function seems right since if i do a rubber banding box it erases and redraws itself correctly ie not disturbing the underlying image any suggestions what i m doing wrong i believe for this to work on a color display you must set the foreground of the gc to be foreground background patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	how do i cause a timeout i have a problem where an athena strip chart widget is not calling it s get value function i am pretty sure this is happening because i am not using xtappmainloop but am dealing with events via sockets ya ya anyway i want to cause a timeout so that the strip chart widget s will call their get value callback or if someone knows another fast way around this or any way for that matter let me know i cannot or i don t think call the xtngetvalue callback myself because i don t have the value for the third parameter of the get value proc xtpointer call data in other words i want to force a strip chart widget to update itself any ideas anyone christopher r bailey internet baileyc dendrite cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder compuserve ride fast take chances
comp.windows.x	transparent widgets how i need to write an application which does annotation notes on existing documents the annotation could be done several times by different people the idea is something like having several acetate transparencies stacked on top of each other so that the user can see through all of them i ve seen something like this being done by the oclock client could someone please tell me how to do it in xt thank you very much
comp.windows.x	re multi screen apps and window managers jo pelkey phone battelle pacific northwest labs fax mail stop k email je pelkey pnl gov p o box richland wa hi jo i m also interested in your questions so if you get any answers via email and not via repost please let me know thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co at
comp.windows.x	re how do i find by appcontext is there an xt call to give me my application context i am fixing up an x motif program and am trying to use xtappaddtimeout whose first argument is the app context what call can i use to give me this value use xtdisplaytoapplicationcontext to retreive the application context patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	x device driver for bird has anyone written a device driver to use the ascension bird with xwindows o o o suresh thennarangam email suresh iss nus sg internet research scholar issst nusvm bitnet institute of systems science tel national university of singapore facs heng mui keng terrace telex issnus rs singapore
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window in article c r y hfz cs columbia edu ethan solomita writes hi i m trying to figure out how to make a window manager place the window where the create window command tells it regardless of what it may think is right my application has reason to know better i don t want to set the override redirect because i do want all the embellishments that the window manager gives i just want the wm to accept my choice of location window xcreatewindow xsettransientforhint display window window xmapwindow this is probably cheating and some window managers might still refuse to give it a border and all that other stuff but it usually works
comp.windows.x	devguide with motif solaris to ease motif burden we ve developed a number of applications using devguide and found it to be a very useful tool i ve been impressed with the level of integration it affords using the connection editor i love the general ease of use i talked with tali aben at sun today about devguide motif she was very helpful we provided some input as to what we d like to see in the next version of devguide tali was very enthusiatic about our comments i mentioned i was going to post this email message and she offered to receive additional comments from the net on what devguide should evolve into send your comments wish list raving et al about devguide to tali aben sun com pretty cool example of a company that cares what we want more of this and computers may have a future frankly i like the idea that it will offer some migration capability to doe domf through an integrated tooltalk capability pointed out in march s sunexpert magazine technology works we can crankout the interfaces with devguide price is outstanding
comp.windows.x	running dxterm s onto apollo from dec help i m trying to run dxterm s decs xterm on a decstation ultrix x r motif with the display variable set to an apollo dn domain os x r motif i get these errors appearing on the decstation dxterm x toolkit warning cannot convert string key apchardel to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key apcopy to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key apcut to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key appaste to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key apupbox to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key apdownbox to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key aprightbar to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key apleftbar to type virtualbinding segmentation fault any ideas is it a motif problem are the dec and apollo versions of motif incompatible or something to do with xkeysymdb xterms run fine on dec displaying on apollo arggh i need to run dxterm because the package we are using on the dec s oracle case uses dxterm by default and we have a lab of apollo workstations we would like to run oracle from andrew alf leahy alf st nepean uws edu au andrew alf leahy phone w irc pepsi alf uni western sydney nepean remote email alf st nepean uws edu au sydney australia local email alf
comp.windows.x	xalloccolor fails to return nearest match posted for a friend okay i looked through the faqs and didn t see this but i know its come up before xalloccolor is supposed to do the following in order try to find an exact match read only color cell within hardware limits try to allocate a read only colorcell and set it to match and when all else fails return the colorcell with the best match from the read only colors already allocated in the colormap this sounds good in theory it doesn t seem to work this way though if there is no exact match already in the colormap and no unallocated cells then xalloccolor fails even when it has already allocated several other cells already and there are dozens of read only cells already in the colormap is this a bug a feature a misunderstanding on my part any help appreciated noel ngorelic speclab cr usgs gov
comp.windows.x	re xlib for ms windows not an xserver in article apr topgun smikes topgun steven mikes writes another company congruent corporation of new york city has also ported xlib xt and motif over to ms windows nt which provides full client development for x applications in an nt environment could someone please send me the postal and email address of congruent corporation and any competitors they may have thank you snail lsl co uk washing one s hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful not to be neutral quote by freire poster by oxfam
comp.windows.x	re xcopyplane question in article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes as per your question why not have the button handler add the object and then call the window redraw or whatever directly although depending this design will work but i don t think it can take easily take advantage of expose event redraw optimization that is the whole window will be redrawn not just the area with the new item p s i m replying here because my your mailer didn t agree with the return address whaley sigma kpc com
comp.windows.x	problem with libararies i have been trying to compile some source code for a mpeg animation viewer for x windows i got the code from a ftp site i have modified the makefile as they instructed no errors there what happens is that i get the following message when everything is going to be linked cc util o video o parseblock o motionvector o decoders o fs o fs fast o fs o hybrid o hybriderr o x o gdith o gray o mono o main o jrevdct o bit o util o ordered o ordered o mb ordered o lib libx so lib libxext so lm o mpeg play undefined first referenced symbol in file getnetpath lib libx so t alloc lib libx so t unbind lib libx so t open lib libx so t rcvdis lib libx so netdir free lib libx so t error lib libx so netdir getbyname lib libx so getnetconfigent lib libx so t look lib libx so t errno lib libx so t close lib libx so netdir getbyaddr lib libx so t listen lib libx so t rcv lib libx so setnetpath lib libx so t bind lib libx so t connect lib libx so t accept lib libx so nc perror lib libx so inet addr lib libx so ld mpeg play fatal error symbol referencing errors no output written to mpeg play error code bu make fatal error does anyone know where these missing functions are located if you do can you help me with it i posted before to one of the other unix groups i tried their suggestions but always get this error if you have to know i am using unix system v the machines here are s the terminals i want to use are separate and just called x terminals and they seem dedicated to that i m not sure as to what they really are since it is one of my first times out with this x windows gidget that is first time programming for it so to speak i use them alot just for the graphics things if you can help mail me soon gerard
comp.windows.x	x intrinsic mailing list as we don t get a newsfeed i was wondering whether there was such a thing as a xt mailing list other than xpert expo lcs mit edu i would appreciate any info on this or x related mailing lists thanks in advance leon leon thrane telephone dimatrix aps fax lyngby hovedgade d e mail leon dimatrix dk dk lyngby denmark or uunet dimatrix dk leon
comp.windows.x	re xt intrinsics slow popups in article minster york ac uk cjhs minster york ac uk writes the application creates window with a button quit and press me the button press me pops up a dialog box the strange feature of this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the first time if i try to pop it up a nd time rd th time it is much slower the shell is waiting for the window manager to respond to its positioning request the window manager is not responding because it thinks the window is already in the right place exactly why the two components get into this sulk is unclear to me all information greatly received bryan
comp.windows.x	xdm decnet does xdm work with decnet i have an ultrix machine running both tcp ip and decnet i have a number of x terminals hanging off the ultrix host also running tcp ip and decnet presently i am using xdm for the login procedure on the x terminals using tcp ip since xdm is basically just an x windows client shouldn t i be able to run xdm on the decnet protocol tower as well my first inclination is that xdm is not your typical x client it is making tcp ip specific socket calls in this case the answer would be no you can not run xdm over decnet is this right or not any feedback is appreciated thanks
comp.windows.x	re compiling on sun in article qfe wb qzz ez andrew cmu edu wilson swee ws n andrew cmu edu writes i have a piece of x code that compiles fine on pmax ul pmax mach as well as sun mach but whenever it compiles on sun it gives me undefined ld errors sin cos pow floor get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass the following libraries that i linked it to are lxaw lxmu lxt lxext lx the makefile is generated off an imake template can anyone give me pointers as to what i m missing out to compile on a sun well the first are easy you need the math library try adding lm after lx don t know if that s the whole problem but it s a start daniel j mccoy space i net inc nasa mail code pt is tel nasa johnson space center our fax houston texas future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	keyboard map for uk type keyboard under x r hi does anyone have a keyboard map for a sun uk type keyboard for use under x r thanks nigel nigel r ellis artificial intelligence group n r ellis durham ac uk computer science university of durham phne durham england dh le fax
comp.windows.x	top motif applications hello everybody i am searching for business information of motif applications to create a top of most used wordprocessors spreadsheets drawing programs schedulers and fax programs etc please mail me all your information or references i will summaries the results on this media thank you in advance anton de ruiter digital equipment corporation workgroup products wgp objectworks obw ing anton de ruiter mba software product manager post office box ae apeldoorn the netherlands oude apeldoornseweg nr apeldoorn the netherlands mail hlde ruiter a dtn location apd f a internet aruit idca tds philips nl uucp mcsun philapd aruit phone business phone private fax
comp.windows.x	gcc and building the hp widget set on linux i am currently attempting to get a copy of the hp widget set compiled under linux sls release with kernel and am running into some problems actually it seems that this is more of a gcc question because i got it to compile without trouble using cc on an rs basically there are a number of functions with prototypes set up in let s say compositep h for instance the composite widget s insert child procedure is set up with the type typedef void xtwidgetproc widget but in several places in the hp source code they reference the insert child procedure and pass it multiple arguments instead of just one as the prototype suggests for example superclass composite class insert child w args p num args now gcc chokes on this giving an error message that too many arguments are passed to the function so does anyone have any suggestions as to how to turn off this checking in gcc or how i can go about changing the code to accomodate this call without changing usr include x compositep h or has anyone successfully built the hp widget set and have any suggestions many thanks in advance for any help bill woodward wpwood austin ibm com try this first aix software support billw aixwiz austin ibm com graphics group i am the terror that flaps in the night
comp.windows.x	problem r server hangs on sun i recently compiled the x r pl sources using gcc on a sun everything seems to work fine usually but at seemingly random times the server will just hang i will click the mouse somewhere never happens while my back is turned and without warning it will freeze there requiring the server to be killed sometimes it will run fine for weeks sometimes only for minutes os frame buffer bw has anyone seen this before any ideas anything at all thanks jeff jeff weisberg weisberg ee rochester edu real cherries ur valhalla weisberg watch for pits
comp.windows.x	re motif vs athena etc in article c k ny azj kirk bu oz au bambi kirk bu oz au david j hughes writes ports of motif to both bsd and linux are available for a fee of about this is cost recovery for the person who bought the rights to redistribute the activity in both the bsd and linux news groups pertaining to motif has been high i ve heard about that italian guy distributing motif binaries for bsd but i haven t heard of anybody doing the same thing for linux and i do follow the linux news group pretty closely so have i missed something i d love to get hold of motif libs for linux for regards joe pannon
comp.windows.x	xdm xsession woes i ve just managed to get xdm running from an ncr an svr box running xfree to my ncd xdisplay it s pretty much working but i m encountering a weird error i m attempting to start an xterm from my xsession file but nothing happens redirecting stderr to a file using exec home xerrors in xsession reveals the error message xterm error errno not owner now if i start xterm from the window manager or from the command line it works fine and starting other clients like the window manager mwm and a clock from my xsession also works anyone encountered this suggestions atdhvaannkcse des herriott as a wise man once said micro focus newbury it takes a lot of brains to be smart dnh mfltd co uk but it takes some neck to be a giraffe
comp.windows.x	re mwm title drag crashes x server sigpipe in article creatures cs vt edu ramakris csgrad cs vt edu s ramakrishnan writes environment mach arch sparc sun ipx os sunos x x r patchlevel motif i bring up x server using startx and usr bin x xsun the following sequence of actions crashes the x server sigpipe errno xinit reports that connexion to x server lost i had this problem as well it had to do with the cg graphics card that comes with the ipx what fixed the problem for me was to apply the sungx uu that was part of patch patch also used this file so perhaps you didn t apply the one that came with patch jeff jeff w boote boote ncar ucar edu scientific computing division there is nothing good or bad national center for atmospheric research but thinking makes it so boulder hamlet
comp.windows.x	re how do i find my appcontext in article qvatv ic pandora sdsu edu masc ucsnews sdsu edu todd greene writes is there an xt call to give me my application context i am fixing up an x motif program and am trying to use xtappaddtimeout whose first argument is the app context what call can i use to give me this value you can get the applicationcontext associated with a widget by calling xtwidgettoapplicationcontext ian hogg ianhogg cs umn edu
comp.windows.x	re mysterious beeping in article c qtkk wp cup hp com defaria cup hp com andy defaria writes article crossposted from hp windows author was andy defaria posted on mon apr gmt for some reason the following code causes my x application to beep whenever i intercept a keystroke and change it s meaning the intent of this code it to allow date fields the following special keys tt insert today s date bump day up by one bump day down by one i hardcoded some dates for this example perhaps i shouldn t be using an xmtext field for this for some reason the following code beeps whenever any of the special keys of tt are hit why the idea of this code is to interpret these keys having the special meaning implied by the code i would like to get rid of the beeping but as far as i can tell i m not doing the beep and am at a lose as to understanding who and why the beeping is occuring code deleted from the xmtextfield man page during discussion of resources xmnverifybell specifies whether a bell will sound when an action is reversed during a verification callback you are setting doit to false in the callback and text field is beeping as it should to turn off this behavior set this boolean resource to false tom mcfarland tommc cv hp com
comp.windows.x	how get fontname from fonstruct anyone know how an application can retrieve the name of the font from an application given an xfontstruct would xgetfontproperty work if i passed xa font name anyone know details of this thanks in advance brian brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	re xlock in article qvir idi lll winken llnl gov dale wente llnl gov dale m slone writes dale i found an oddity with our sgi indigo mips r chip dale when xlock nolock is running and i am working remotely dale or in batch at mode the runtime of my programs as timed dale by using clock in the code itself is slower than if dale xlock is not running no other processes seem to affect my dale runtimes yet this is very consistent unless you run xlock mode blank xlock consumes cpu time generating the nice animated display the code you are running is competing with xlock for the cpu if you run top via a remote login you can really see what is going on scott henry scotth sgi com help my disclaimer is missing networking services gigo really means garbage in gospel out silicon graphics inc
comp.windows.x	re xterm w ansi color mouse support brown ftms uucp vidiot writes in article apr vms huji ac il klony vms huji ac il writes i ve had several requests to post any information i ve gathered regarding my search for ansi mouse color xterm source my only response was from larry w virden who writes the mit x r and r both provide mouse escape sequences now there are several color xterm enhancements on export lcs mit edu contrib indeed i found color xterm tar z in that directory along with lots of other fun stuff for x thanks larry i also found it on uunet in pub window sys x contrib for those that can only do anonuucp like me but i noticed that the thing is dated making it over two years old is this really the latest version are we talking about an xterm which would accept the same escape sequences as that for vt or colour decterm dxterm i thought that was called colxterm and my testing of it shows some oddities that might be bugs or might be my program going wrong i m also unsure of what is meant by ansi mouse xterm
comp.windows.x	comp windows x intrinsics i am having a problem with the high order bit of a character being clipped when entered in an xterm window under motif i have reprogrammed the f key to transmit a ff be character sequence by using the following line in xdefaults ctrl shift alt key f string xff string xbe n i merge in this line with xrdb merge and then create the new xterm which has the remapped f key the problem that arises is that the application which is recieving input at the time only sees a f e sequence which is ff be with the high order bit of each character being filtered or ignored when i run xev and press the f key i get the correct value showing up in the following two key events keypress event serial synthetic no window x root x subw x time root state x keycode keysym xffbe f same screen yes xlookupstring gives characters keyrelease event serial synthetic no window x root x subw x time root state x keycode keysym xffbe f same screen yes xlookupstring gives characters notice that the keysym being transmitted is correct xffbe but when i use the f key while in vi or in a program i wrote to spit back the hex values of keyboard input i only get f e does anyone know why the high order bit is being filtered and what i can do to make sure that the entire bits make it through to the final application any help is greatly appreciated please email any responses jim kavitsky kavitsky hsi com
comp.windows.x	re mix gl with x xlib xt mwm yes it s possible in fact there s some gl widget code in usr lpp gl somewhere it s named glib c my ibm s down right now though so i can t find the exact location warning this code feels quite bogus it does things like calling noport before winopen and then extracting an x window id from it anyway it worked just fine under aix i spent last weekend trying to port it to gl under doesn t seem to like it and it s turning into a hard job check out your info pages it has some pretty good documentation on whan you can and can t do when mixing gl and x and how to go about doing so rob
comp.windows.x	faq for this group could some kind soul point me in the right direction for the faq list for this group thanks saad mufti personal library software e mail mufti pls com
comp.windows.x	re xalloccolor fails to return nearest match in article slate mines colorado edu agallagh slate mines colorado edu gallagher andrea j writes posted for a friend okay i looked through the faqs and didn t see this but i know its come up before xalloccolor is supposed to do the following in order try to find an exact match read only color cell within hardware limits try to allocate a read only colorcell and set it to match and when all else fails return the colorcell with the best match from the read only colors already allocated in the colormap where did you hear this if it is printed in a book somewhere throw away the book according to the mit specs only the first are true ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	need font family weight and slant from instance of a widget how can i get the font family weight and slant from an instance of a widget using initfontcontext getnextfont and freefontcontext i can get the size of the font and a bunch of other stuff concerning the font but nowhere have i found family weight and slant assume that i do not have access to the source where family weight and slant were orginaly used when creating a fontlist thanks a bunch and have a great day carl carl softsolut com
comp.windows.x	re transparent widgets how in article aa ntep ntep tmg nec co jp cerna ntep tmg nec co jp alexander cerna sv writes i need to write an application which does annotation notes on existing documents the annotation could be done several times by different people the idea is something like having several acetate transparencies stacked on top of each other so that the user can see through all of them i ve seen something like this being done by the oclock client could someone please tell me how to do it in xt thank you very much the oclock widget was written using the shape extension you can do the same in your widgets few current widgets support shape so you ll have to subclass them to add that functionality ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	re mix gl with x xlib xt mwm in article aa sparc jade com graham sparc ottawa jade com jay graham writes i am developing an x xt xm application that will include a graphics window of some sort with moving symbols among other things a pure x application could be implemented with motif widgets one of which would be an xmdrawingarea for drawing with xlib but i would like to take advantage of the graphics library gl available on our ibm rs sgi s gl i believe is it possible to mix x and gl in one application program can i use gl subroutines in an xmdrawingarea or in an x window opened by me with xopenwindow there is a widget already defined for gl it is the glxmdraw motif or glxdraw athena widget it is similar to a xmdrawingarea except that it allows you to use gl calls to render into the window look at glxlink glxunlink glxgetconfig and glxwinset in the man pages i have never used gl before but the doc on gl winopen says that the first time winopen is called it opens a connection to the server also most of the gl calls do not require a display or gc unlike most x calls from this initial information it appears that x and gl cannot be mixed easily is this true the glxmdraw widget works pretty well opengl will be an improvement does pex graphigs have the same functionality of gl i think gl is a little easier to use and a little more powerful but that s just an opinion mileage may vary larry d pyeatt the views expressed here are not internet pyeatt texaco com those of my employer or of anyone voice that i know of with the possible exception of myself
comp.windows.x	re monthly question about xcopyarea and expose events in article buzz apr lion bear com buzz bear com buzz moschetti writes nd posting of the question that just doesn t seem to get answered suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the same expose event handler that handles regular expose events e g window manager driven exposures take care of rendering the new image using an expose event handler is a proper way to do this because at the time the handler is called the xlib window is guaranteed to be mapped the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is already visible and mapped what we need to do is somehow tickle the window so that the expose handler is hit with arguments that will enable it to render just the part of the window that contains the new item what is the best way to tickle a window to produce this behavior to incrementally update the contents of windows i use the following trick set the window background to none call xcleararea display window true restore the window background to its correct value the call to xcleararea does not repaint the window background but still generates exposure events for visible parts of the window in order to let my application know that these expose events must be handled incrementally something is already displayed on the screen and may need to be erased i encapsulate the operations with self addressed client messages which preserve asynchronicity between the client and the server xgrabserver display client message start incremental background none xcleararea restore background client message end incremental xungrabserver display the grabserver prevents other events to be inserted by the server in the critical section vincent prunet sema group sophia antipolis inria bp sophia antipolis cedex france prunet sophia inria fr fax
comp.windows.x	sparc ipc sprite goes off screen environment x r motif sun ipc problem when mouse is moved across screen horizontally the sprite goes off of the edge of the screen and reappears at the other edge it appears that the server thinks we are running in multi screen mode the cursor seems to wrap from one side of the screen to the other as far as we can tell we are not running the server in multi screen mode please reply via e mail ray bentz phone bluestone consulting inc fax church street uunet uunet blustone bentz mount laurel nj internet blustone bentz uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	re xcopyplane question in article buzz apr lion bear com buzz bear com buzz moschetti write in article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes actually i must also ask the faq s most popular reason why graphics don t show up do you wait for an expose event before drawing your rectangle suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the expose event handler take care of rendering the image because at that time it is guaranteed that the window is mapped the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is visible and mapped do you know the best way to tickle a window so that the expose event handler will be invoked to draw this new item what does this have to do with my original question i previously stated that i did an xcopyarea of the depth pixmap to the screen just to make sure that my image had data and it did this is not a problem with expose events it has to do with xcopyplane not working does anyone have a code fragment they could send demonstrating that xcopyplane works this would be very helpful thanks what it has to do with your original question is this many times beginning x users heck experienced x users too write small test programs many times they forget to draw only in response to expose events and thus see unpreditable results whereby sometimes the application s graphics show up and sometimes they don t we re just trying to eliminate all the easy explanations for why you re not seeing your graphics that being said why don t you try copying different planes to your window other than try to see it you get any output since you re dipslaying only a single plane of your data it s possible that all the pixel values in your pixmap have the same value for that color plane ken kenneth whaley kubota pacific computer inc email whaley kpc com walsh avenue santa clara ca
comp.windows.x	re running dxterm s onto apollo from dec apollo dn domain os x r motif i think you are running xapollo it s a x r server if you want a x r server you should install pskq or so you can run xdomain i get these errors appearing on the decstation dxterm x toolkit warning cannot convert string key apchardel to type virtualbinding segmentation fault any ideas is it a motif problem are the dec and apollo versions of motif incompatible or something to do with xkeysymdb in xkeysymdb you could add apollo specific keysyms aplinedel ff apchardel ff apcopy ff apcut ff appaste ff apmove ff apgrow ff apcmd ff apshell ff apleftbar ff aprightbar ff a apleftbox ff b aprightbox ff c apupbox ff d apdownbox ff e appop ff f apread ff apedit ff apsave ff apexit ff aprepeat ff apkp parenleft ffa apkp parenright ffa victor victor hpfrcu france hp com oooo o oooo victor gattegno be yourself and not what people expect you to be
comp.windows.x	x graphics accelerators how can i obtain public information documentation and sources about xservers implemented with graphics processors i am specially interested in xservers developed for the tms texas instruments graphic processor please send answer to arana labein es
comp.windows.x	tvtwm xsetroot x r and sparc keyboard hi please reply to me direct as i am not a member of this list i am new to x so please excuse my lax read probably incorrect terminology environment sun sparc sunos x r path level my x process is started by xdm i i want to setup the backgroud root window of the tvtwm display to display the escherknot etc grey is a very boring colour to work on the setup is as follows lib x xdm xsetup xsetroot bitmap etc user xsession xsetroot etc tvtwm there are also tvtwmrc and xdefaults files in the user home directory the xsetroot in xsetup displays the appropriate bitmap in the xdm login window as expected very nice unfortunately when the users session is started the background of the tvtwm window reverts to grey if i manually type xsetroot in an xterm window when the session has started the background is changed as expected the question is how do i retain the background from the login window and or specify a new background on a per user basis as part of the the users session startup ii when i open an xterm on the sparc not all of the keys are recognised and some keys on the keyboard are not sending the correct characters ie real key key shown on screen hash back slash tilde pipe double quote at symbol pound hash cursor key not recognised this is very annoying is x at fault here or the machine setup i have installed the xterm drivers that came with x r in both terminfo and termcap as they seemed more uptodate typing set in an xterm window shows a terminal type of xterm as expected any help on how to correct either of these problems much appreciated thanks dave janet d haywood uk ac sheffield hallam dave haywood or d haywood uk ac shu computer services internet d haywood shu ac uk sheffield hallam university telex shpoly g pond street tel sheffield s wb england fax x i d s haywood o sheffield hallam prmd uk ac admd c gb x c gb o sheffield hallam university ou computer services cn dave haywood
comp.windows.x	re tvtwm xsetroot x r and sparc keyboard in article mailqueue oak shu ac uk d haywood sheffield hallam ac uk writes hi environment sun sparc sunos x r path level my x process is started by xdm okay that s good i m typing this from exactly the same setup us unix layout keyboard i did install the sunkbd patch though i i want to setup the backgroud root window of the tvtwm display to display the escherknot etc grey is a very boring colour to work on make sure you re using ssetroot which comes with tvtwm when tvtwm starts up it nukes the existing root window use an ssetroot after tvtwm starts up you could spawn off a sleep ssetroot you can also use virtualdesktopbackgroundpixmap filename or just virtualdesktopbackground if you just want another color besides grey ii when i open an xterm on the sparc not all of the keys are recognised and some keys on the keyboard are not sending the correct characters did you install the sunkbd patch it s in the contrib directory on export all the keys on my keyboard send events properly except the following the end pageup pagedown on the key cluster aren t recognized even the compose key works though i can t seem to get the composed characters in an xterm to get passed anyone have a fix for the last two dave system administrator penn state population research institute dog dianetics woof woof woof page kibo
comp.windows.x	imake help needed hi can someone please give me some pointers to setting up imake in a sun openwindows enviornment i ve checked through all the documentation but can not find any clues please respons via e mail thanks paul paul byrne british aerospace defence ltd dynamics division email paul byrne def bae co uk fpc p o box filton phone bristol bs qw
comp.windows.x	help setting colormaps on multi top level app dear sgi and netter gl x mixed model experts i am writing a mixed model application that creates a couple different color maps for different windows and i ve been having trouble getting the window manager to reliably honor my requests in some environments entry level r indigo w all windows are getting properly connected to their designated color maps but on others an iris d gtx also a different entry level indigo the color mapping is unreliable and changes behavior when i compile at different times the most common problem is that all non top level windows fail to be displayed according to their colormap my application starts out by creating three top level windows in some cases all but the first of these also fail to be displayed by their colormap this is spectacularly aggravating i would dearly appreciate an explanation of the standard right correct way to give a window a colormap such that the window manager will honor and obey it any advice about problems that could cause my failure to get my desired colormaps by now i have exhausted my own attempts on this having tried everything reasonable or imaginable below is example code giving the schematic for how i have been trying to do this please please please somebody tell me what i am doing wrong how to do it right yours chris lee display dpy declare some data colormap popup cmap xcolor mycolor window win xsetwindowattributes cwa int nwlist window wlist nb for brevity not showing all code lines just a schematic popup cmap xcreatecolormap dpy defaultrootwindow dpy vis visual allocall here we store a bunch of colors using xstorecolor dpy popup cmap mycolor cwa colormap popup cmap win xcreatewindow dpy parent x y w h borderwidth vis depth inputoutput vis visual cwcolormap cwborderpixel cwa list all sub windows of my topwin parent of win into wlist nwlist is counter of entries in wlist nb wlist is static storage that can be relied on not to go away or be corrupted i thought of that does anyone know if setting wm properties is by data copy or by reference pointer ie is it acceptable to pass data for a property then free the data xsetwmcolormapwindows dpy my topwin wlist nwlist xmapraised display win later on we handle xevents normally typical eventloop
comp.windows.x	xfree and esix hello netlanders i am a novice x user with a question for any xgod my computer configuration with the x problem is as follows dx ram running esix wangtek at style interface m tape drive i have loaded the basic os which includes nsu and inet utilities tcp ip i ftp ed the xfree x r binaries and installed properly i can execute startx and run x windows with no problems however if i try to access the tape drive while in x the machine locks up instantly if i am out of x and access the tape the tape drive works fine soon as i try to startx again the screen changes modes but the grey background pattern does not come up and no xterm is forked i have to login from another terminal and execute a shutdown to reset the system i ve contacted esix about this problem they claim their x window x r server which i have works with the wangtek tape drive they also claim i only need the nsu network system utilities to run x i don t need inet tcp ip my experience has been that i need both to get xfree to work i m not too concerned about having to load both nsu and inet packages to get x to work unless the inet package is causing my problem i would like to get both x and my tape drive to co exist on the same system if you can shed any light on the problem it would be appreciated one colleague implied this might be a hardware conflict if this is true what direction should i look to resolve the conflict thanks kenneth cobler ksc ihlpv att com at t bell laboratories shuman blvd naperville il
comp.windows.x	cursors according to the osf motif style guide one should use cursor shapes to give the user a visual clue of what is happening or what is expected of him so a hourglass cursor should be shown when the application is busy or a caution cursor should be shown over an area when input is expected in another defining cursors for widgets has to be done at rather low level so defining a cursor for all widgets in an application but not for a certain subpart of it is a rather complicated matter when cursors have been defined for some windows e g a crosswire cursor for a drawingarea things get even more complicated my intuition says that things should be easier but is this so if anyone has a solid and complete solution to my problem please let me know the topics on busy cursors in the several faq s are not helpful since they only work for applications where all windows have the cursor window attribute set to none hans geurtsen phone nucletron research bv e mail hgn nuclint nl surface waardgelder nl th veenendaal
comp.windows.x	how can i detect local vs remote display settings i am trying to find out if my application is running on a local or a remote display a local display being connected to the same system that the client is executing on i have access to the display string but can i tell from the string if the client is executing on host foo then unix foo and localhost are all local under ultrix i believe that local is also a valid display name a shared memory connection maybe are there other strings that i should check for is there a better way to detect this thank you for any help you can give me jim atkinson wavefront technologies inc jra wti com what me a company spokesperson get real life is not a spectator sport
comp.windows.x	running x on a pc at home talking to a host over serial line some time back i asked for software recommendations to allow me to run x from my pc at home to my sparc at the office many thanks for all replies the majority of people recommended pcxremote from ncd i received it yesterday and installed it on my sparc and pc with only one hitch the unix install consists of copying files into some local bin directory on the pc side i ordered the windows version which came with a slick windows installation the only problem i had was that my xinitrc in my home directory had the line display hostname export display s t the clients i kicked off connected to my xserver on the sparc console by removing this line from the xinitrc everything worked as planned and the clients connected to the server at hostname some comments on performance i was connected to a sparc thru a netblazer terminal server over a baud line my pc is a dx ati ultra mb bitmap stuff sucked basic editing and compilation stuff definitely usable xmail was very usable at times the first time u typed in an xclient window there was a very noticable delay i put this down to brain damaged windows should not be called a scheduler besides that this will become my remote work environment for a while has anybody tried the non windows version of the product the sales person said they performed about the same given the over head of windows i question this many thanks for help to all who responded gerard
comp.windows.x	is a headed sun possible cgfour bwtwo i have a sun that has a mono framebuffer bwtwo built on the motherboard the same system also has a cgfour cgfour and bwtwo daughterboard i have been using this system with a color monitor having a color front screen from the cgfour and a mono back screen from the bwtwo both on the same tube i recentley picked up a x sun mono monitor and i would like to make a two headed system with the cgfour and the bwtwo i do not care if i loose the back screen on the color tube from the bwtwo after looking through the xsun man page i am not sure if this is possible has anybody sucessfuly done this before matthew
comp.windows.x	cose gui just what is it they agreed on the cose announcement specifies that motif will become the common gui but what does this mean exactly do they mean that all cose complient apps will have the motif look and feel do they mean that all cose complient apps will use the motif toolkit api do they mean both of the above is it possible that there will be a motif api complient toolkit with an openlook look feel how about an olit xview oi interviews api toolkit with a motif l f i know oi already does this but will this be considered cose complient will there be more than one standard toolkit api or l f supported how does using tooltalk fit in with motif this is my attempt to start a discussion in order to pull as much knowledge about these questions off the net feel free to e mail or followup gil tene some days it just doesn t pay devil imp hellnet org to go to sleep in the morning devil diablery a com
comp.windows.x	xterm problem with input focus shuffle up the situation running a fortran executable that creats an xterm an option in the menu contained in the xterm runs a fortran subroutine that creats a tektronics mode xterm for displaying some graphics typing a ret while the tektronics mode xterm future reference to this will be tek term is active makes the xterm read future keystrokes but does not shift input focus to the xterm i m basing that statement on the fact that the border of the tek term stays the highlighted color and that the tek term stays on top of xterm if what i m describing isn t input focus let me know the xterm can be brought to the top by clicking the mouse button on it subsequent selections from the xterm of the menu item that displays graphics highlihts the border and displays the updated graphics but does not move the tek term to the top if the tek term has been iconized to conserve screen space it stays an icon the desired behavior one of two options whichever of the windows that is active is always on top of the inactive one whenever the tek term is inactivated it should revert to a icon but when it is activated it should become a window on a higher level than the xterm what i think i need a means of specifying that a xterm or tek term will be at the highest level and a way to iconify expand a xterm and tek term these commands would i d guess need to be in the fortran or in the command that starts up the xterm and tek term other information all this is taking place on a vt a dec dumb x windows terminal connected to a vax running vms and motif thanks for your time if you ve got any words of wisdom other than give up please send email to jhcox kodak com
comp.windows.x	dell eisa video cards does xfree support any eisa video cards under dell larry snyder larry gator rn com
comp.windows.x	x device driver for bird has anyone written a device driver to use the ascension bird with xwindows o o o suresh thennarangam email suresh iss nus sg internet research scholar issst nusvm bitnet institute of systems science tel national university of singapore facs heng mui keng terrace telex issnus rs singapore
comp.windows.x	re mix gl with x xlib xt mwm pyeatt texaco com larry d pyeatt writes in article aa sparc jade com graham sparc ottawa jade com jay graham writes xmdrawingarea for drawing with xlib but i would like to take advantage of the graphics library gl available on our ibm rs sgi s gl i believe is it possible to mix x and gl in one application program can i use gl subroutines in an xmdrawingarea or in an x window opened by me with xopenwindow you can t make gl calls in an xmdrawingarea widget for sure there is a widget already defined for gl it is the glxmdraw motif or glxdraw athena widget it is similar to a xmdrawingarea except that it allows you to use gl calls to render into the window look at glxlink glxunlink glxgetconfig and glxwinset in the man pages the glxmdraw widget works pretty well opengl will be an improvement i can vouch for that the gl widget works pretty well i have been using it for sometime now i m not sure though whether you can use xlib calls to draw into the gl widget i haven t tried it yet nor have i read the accompanying documentation completely try posting to comp sys sgi for more information better still you will find most of the answers in the sgi manuals there is a little transition guide which explains the mixed model programming paradigm mixing x and gl does pex graphigs have the same functionality of gl i think gl is a little easier to use and a little more powerful but that s just an opinion mileage may vary well pex is designed as an extension to x and will be more seamless but then it is buggy to start with opinions again o o o suresh thennarangam email suresh iss nus sg internet research scholar issst nusvm bitnet institute of systems science tel national university of singapore facs heng mui keng terrace telex issnus rs singapore
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article apr dsd es com pmartz dsd es com paul martz writes in article apr infodev cam ac uk dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson writes hi i m new to this group so please bear with me two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete i ve finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview i put together a quick test and i ve found that xputimage is considerably slower factor of on average than the sunview command pw rop which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas this was on a sparc ipx it seems that the x protocol communication is slowing things down or xputimage is inefficient or both using xputimage your source is maintained by the client and the destination is maintained by the server thus you incur the overhead of transporting through whatever client server communications mechanism you are using is it possible for you to maintain your source images in pixmaps these are maintained by the server so copying them into a window is much cheaper also make sure you are not sending any unnecessary xsyncs or running in xsynchonize mode if you need speed and your client can run on the same host as the x server you should use the shared memory extension to the sample x server mit shm xdpyinfo will tell you if your server has this extension this is certainly available with the sample mit x server running under sunos a word of warning make sure your kernel is configured to support shared memory and another word of warning openwindows is slower than the mit server i have written an imaging tool using xview for the gui by the way which yields over frames per second for bit images running on a sparc ipc half the cpu grunt of an ipx this has proved quite sufficient for animations regards richard gooch
comp.windows.x	re high order bit of a character in xterm does anyone know why the high order bit is being filtered and what i can do to make sure that the entire bits make it through to the final application any help is greatly appreciated you need these resources xterm eightbitinput true xterm eightbitoutput true in the shell you need to do stty cs istrip good luck victor x x x x x x victor gattegno email victor hpfrcu france hp com xxx hewlett packard france hpdesk hp rc x x x avenue du canada phone x x x les ulis cedex telnet x x x
comp.windows.x	xquerybestcursor semi broken some one asked me recently why they when they used xquerybestcursor to see if they could create of a given size it seemed to imply they could but the server did not create cursors of that size investigation showed that some x servers will happily return any size up to the size of the root window while others return some fixed limit of more reasonable size the interesting thing to me is that the same server binary acts differently on different hardware a sun with a cg will claim cursors up to root window size are ok while a sun with a cg will stop at x so far i ve also seen this behavior on ncd and phase x x terminals and have been told it also occurs on hps actually the ncd is even more liberal sizes much larger then the root winodw are gladly returned as ok is xquerybestcursor semi broken or is this behavior correct i d really like to see a x cursor richard neitzel thor thor atd ucar edu torren med sitt skjegg national center for atmospheric research lokkar borni under sole vegg box boulder co gjo i med sitt shinn jagar borni inn
comp.windows.x	re xdm decnet does xdm work with decnet i have an ultrix machine running both tcp ip and decnet i have a number of x terminals hanging off the ultrix host also running tcp ip and decnet presently i am using xdm for the login procedure on the x terminals using tcp ip since xdm is basically just an x windows client shouldn t i be able to run xdm on the decnet protocol tower as well xdm is not just an x window client xdm has its own protocol xdmcp that operates of ucp on port it does provide a login window which is an x window client as to using decnet protocol looking through the source for xdm from x r that i have here it seems that the bare bones code is there but not completely there my first inclination is that xdm is not your typical x client it is making tcp ip specific socket calls in this case the answer would be no you can not run xdm over decnet is this right or not any feedback is appreciated thanks from my look at the source it seems you cannot run it over decnet as shipped with x r patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	xmscale xtaddeventhandler dear xperts i m developing an application that uses a motif slider to select an image file out of a directory now i would like to display the name of the file corresponding to the value of the dragged scale button i e with the mb pressed as xmnshowvalue only displays the current value of the scale button and not the actual corresponding image file name i thought of using an xtaddeventhandler to do the mapping between the scale value and the file name xtaddeventhandler scaleimage button motionmask false slidermoved null and in the eventhandler do a while xchecktypedwindowevent display event window motionnotify return xmscalegetvalue scaleimage value map value to file entry in directory and finally obtain file name to open however when i move the pointer in the scale widget i get callbacks with of co urse a null effect as my mb is not pressed to move the scale button so what is goin g wrong or is the a wrong approach to this problem any hints are highly appreciated phil
comp.windows.x	problem with dni and openwin can anyone help me i am having a problem displaying images greater than bytes from a decwindows program running on a vax and displaying on a sparc ipc running openwindows and dni the program works fine with openwindows the code segment which fails is given below the program simply crashes out with an xlib i o error at the xputimage call ximage ximage ximage xcreateimage mydisplay defaultvisual mydisplay myscreen ddepth zpixmap image xwid ywid xputimage mydisplay mywindow mygc ximage xpos ypos xwid ywid paul jaques systems engineer camborne school of mines rosemanowes herniss penryn cornwall e mail pjaques csm ac uk tel stithians fax
comp.windows.x	wanted info on dedicated x server kernel for sun series if anyone has any information about the existence or location of a dedicated x server kernel for the sun please send email i am trying to put some neglected sun s to good use but they don t have enough memory for sunos thanks in advance for any help max bell i used to think i d emmigrate to escape mbell techbook com the tyrants but now i think i ll stay mbell cie uoregon edu and make them leave instead
comp.windows.x	re available memory to the xserver how to get the actual size hello in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu mouse mcrcim mcgill edu der mouse writes in article igd fhg de pfuetz igd fhg de matthias pfuetzner writes is there a possibility to determine via x protocol calls the size of free memory available to the xserver no even if you could the answer could be out of date even before you get it even if you grab the server it could be taken up by buffering user actions you should just try to do whatever you want a badalloc error is your indication that insufficient server memory is available der mouse this isn t of much help especially when doing phigs pex via the libphigs as supplied by mit i have much trouble together with pex terminals that don t have enough memory performing the following visual visualid copyfromparent bg pix whitepixel grafik display defaultscreen grafik display xswa backing store notuseful xswa event mask exposuremask structurenotifymask xswa background pixel bg pix graphic window xcreatewindow graphic display rootwindow graphic display defaultscreen graphic display displaywidth graphic display defaultscreen graphic display displayheight graphic display defaultscreen graphic display unsigned int inputoutput visual cweventmask cwbackingstore cwbackpixel xswa xmapwindow graphic display graphic window sync and wait for exposure event xsync graphic display false xwindowevent graphic display graphic window exposuremask exposureevent conn display graphic display conn drawable id graphic window xinfo display graphic display xinfo flags no monitor false monitor is running xinfo flags force client ss false popen xphigs null pxphigs info flags no mon pxphigs info flags client ss pxphigs info display xinfo popen ws pconnid conn phigs ws type x drawable i get core dumps in the popen ws call no badalloc etc simply a core dump so i need some way of getting info about the maximal available memory to the xserver but thanks sincerly matthias matthias pfuetzner work home darmstadt frg zgdv wilhelminenstrasse lichtenbergstrasse pfuetzner igd fhg de pfuetzner zgdvda uucp keith packard said r is different from r that s why we changed the release number
comp.windows.x	din fonts hello everybody i hope that i insert the right options so that my question is only distributed through out germany because my question is more or less country dependend now the question is there anybody who can tell my if and of course where there is a ftp site archie or whatever where din fonts for x are available i am looking for fonts holding the specification din din din v thanks in advance juergen schietke research insitute for discrete mathematics university of bonn nassestr bonn germany tel e mail schietke or uni bonn de
comp.windows.x	imake x r cpp problems on aix i am trying to build and use imake x r on an ibm rs running aix v i am having the following problems many of my imakefile s have contructs like this is a makefile at the start of lines to pass makefile comments thru the c preprocessor and into the makefile most of the c preprocessors that i have used will not treat such a as appearing at the start of the line thus the c preprocessor does not treat the hash symbol as the start of a directive however the ibm cpp strips the comment and treats the hash symbol as the start of a directive the cpp fails when it determines that this is not a known directive i have temporarily hacked my imake to handle this situation but would like to come up with a better fix several imakefiles use as a parameter to a macro when a particular use of the macro does not need a value for the parameter the aix cpp gives warnings about these situations but continues to work ok if you are familiar with these problems and have solutions i would appreciate information about on your solutions perhaps this is solved in a later version of imake that i have not reviewed also do you know of other cpp s that behave similarly since i do not have easy access to news a response to white billy po gis prc com would be appreciated
comp.windows.x	motif x on windows nt in article apr topgun smikes topgun steven mikes writes another company congruent corporation of new york city has also ported xlib xt and motif over to ms windows nt which provides full client development for x applications in an nt environment could someone please send me the postal and email address of congruent corporation and any competitors they may have thank you snail lsl co uk washing one s hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful not to be neutral quote by freire poster by oxfam
comp.windows.x	program argument geometry i have a question regarding the processing of program arguments such as the geometry option since this is a standard x option i m wondering wether i have to parse it manually or whether there is some predefined function that will do this for me thanks for any info robret
comp.windows.x	re drawing lines inverse xor in article apr news media mit edu dyoung media mit edu david young writes xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxxor xsetforeground mydisplay gc drawindex then to draw i do xdrawline mydisplay xtwindow drawingarea gc x y x y xflush mydisplay and when i m all done to return things to normal i do xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxcopy what i d like to happen is for the lines i draw to be the inverse of whatever i m drawing over instead what happens is i get white lines if the lines are over a white background nothing shows up if the lines are over a black area nothing shows up it s very strange but the gxxor function seems right since if i do a rubber banding box it erases and redraws itself correctly ie not disturbing the underlying image any suggestions what i m doing wrong david try change the gxxor to gxequiv i have to do this for programs that are to run on ncd terminals on sun terminals i have to change it back to gxxor kurt
comp.windows.x	crl archive change announcement the multi lingual archives at the computing research labs new mexico state university will be moving to a new ftp address soon the archives are being put under control of the consortium for lexical research the new ftp address will be clr nmsu edu the current ip address is but may change so use clr nmsu edu whenever possible please note that there is a difference between ftp sites crl nmsu edu and clr nmsu edu the crl nmsu edu site will be our ftp site for items not related to the consortium for lexical research the arabic chinese french italian indian japanese korean tibetan and vietnamese archives will all be moved we will announce the new locations of the relevant directories once the archives have been moved please be patient if you discover directories missing when you ftp to either crl nmsu edu or clr nmsu edu it will take a few days to move everything if you are not familiar with our multi lingual archives we have been slowly collecting various software fonts and text for different languages over the past years most of the software is currently unix oriented we would also like to encourage people to continue to contribute items to the archives to help improve the quality and quantity of multi lingual tools if you have an item to contribute please put it in clr nmsu edu incoming and send a note to lexical nmsu edu telling them about your contribution if you have any questions or comments please send them to lexical nmsu edu mleisher nmsu edu mark leisher computing research lab elegance is not optional new mexico state university attributed to richard o keefe box crl las cruces nm
comp.windows.x	subscription please subscribe me to this mailing list michael d grapevine one of these days usn swc one of these days code g pow grape suned nswses navy mil it s gonna happen bus and i won t even realize it
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comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window try this after xcreatewindow include x xutil h display display window window xsizehints xsizehints xallocsizehints xsizehints flags usposition ussize or pposition psize xsizehints x xsizehints y xsizehints width xsizehints height xsetwmnormalhints display window xsizehints xfree xsizehints these hints tell the window manager that the position and size of the window are specified by the users and that the window manager should accept these values if you use xsizehints flags pposition psize this tells the window manager that the values are prefered values of the program not the user i don t know a window manager that doesn t place the window like you prefer if you specify the position and size like above greetings from berlin tobias bading cs tu berlin de
comp.windows.x	automated x testing does anyone know what is available in terms of automated testing of x motif applications i am thinking of a system which i could program or which could record events output with our verification test procedures and then run rerun each time we do regression testing i am interested in a product like this for our unix projects and for a separate project which will be using openvms mark d collier southwest research institute senior research analyst automation and data systems division voice data systems department fax software engineering section
comp.windows.x	re is a headed sun possible cgfour bwtwo in article r mg r fitz tc cornell edu matthew alchemy tn cornell edu matthew kleinmann writes i have a sun that has a mono framebuffer bwtwo built on the motherboard the same system also has a cgfour cgfour and bwtwo daughterboard i have been using this system with a color monitor having a color front screen from the cgfour and a mono back screen from the bwtwo both on the same tube i recentley picked up a x sun mono monitor and i would like to make a two headed system with the cgfour and the bwtwo i do not care if i loose the back screen on the color tube from the bwtwo after looking through the xsun man page i am not sure if this is possible has anybody sucessfuly done this before if it s any consolation i have two headed sun systems though the color and mono monitors for each are rated x their configuration is the same as yours so it should be a plug n play situation except i don t know if your hi res mono monitor will function this way however you may simply be able to pull the motherboard and set the hi res jumper located in the same jumper array as the jumpers for the ram simm selects and ethernet connection and be happily on your way when you pull the motherboard the jumpers are in the left rear e g north west quadrant of the motherboard to the left of the simm sockets thad floryan thad btr com thad cup portal com thad netcom com
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm in article quh r irz inf tu dresden de beck irzr inf tu dresden de andre beck writes in article c ol b aeon in berlin de thomas aeon in berlin de thomas wolfram writes hey guys i work on many stations and would like this name and current logname to be in a title of xterm when it s open and a machine name only when it s closed in other words i want host and logname to appear as a title of opened xterm and host when xterm is closed how can i do it almost all window managers twm mwm olwm and their derivates support escape sequences for it for your purpose put following into your login if you re using csh or tcsh for sh you have to modify it if term xterm then echo logname host g host g endif this is not a feature of the window manager but of xterm this sequences are not ansi compatible are they does anyone know if there are compatible sequences for this and what they are i would think they are dcs device control sequence introduced but may be a csi sequence exists too this must work on a dxterm vt and ansi compatible it may not work on xterms it works on xterms at least i have no problem with it back to the original question i usually start new xterms by selecting the proper menu entry in my desktop menu here is a sample command xterm sl n ls i title ls i e rlogin ls i the n and title options give the text for window and icon as i use the tcsh a wonderful extension of the csh i can do the following i have an alias precmd echo n host cwd g in my tcshrc this is a special alias for tvtwm it is executed each time before printing the prompt so i have the current host name and the current directory path in the title bar of my xterms unido ingolf markhof university of dortmund ls informatik xii p o box d dortmund f r germany phone fax email markhof ls informatik uni dortmund de
comp.windows.x	need shading program example in x do anyone know about any shading program based on xlib in the public domain i need an example about how to allocate correct colormaps for the program appreciate the help howard
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm in article r fe inn d fbi news informatik uni dortmund de markhof ls r informatik uni dortmund de ingolf markhof writes in article quh r irz inf tu dresden de beck irzr inf tu dresden de andre beck writes in article c ol b aeon in berlin de thomas aeon in berlin de thomas wolfram writes hey guys i work on many stations and would like this name and current logname to be in a title of xterm when it s open and a machine name only when it s closed in other words i want host and logname to appear as a title of opened xterm and host when xterm is closed how can i do it almost all window managers twm mwm olwm and their derivates support escape sequences for it for your purpose put following into your login if you re using csh or tcsh for sh you have to modify it if term xterm then echo logname host g host g endif this is not a feature of the window manager but of xterm this sequences are not ansi compatible are they does anyone know if there are compatible sequences for this and what they are i would think they are dcs device control sequence introduced but may be a csi sequence exists too this must work on a dxterm vt and ansi compatible it may not work on xterms it works on xterms at least i have no problem with it back to the original question i usually start new xterms by selecting the proper menu entry in my desktop menu here is a sample command xterm sl n ls i title ls i e rlogin ls i the n and title options give the text for window and icon as i use the tcsh a wonderful extension of the csh i can do the following i have an alias precmd echo n host cwd g in my tcshrc this is a special alias for tvtwm it is executed each time before printing the prompt so i have the current host name and the current directory path in the title bar of my xterms have you gotten an answer yet using your variables this is what i would do xterm t host logname n host daniel j mccoy space i net inc nasa mail code pt is tel nasa johnson space center our fax houston texas future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	function key to text string translation i want to press a function key and have a text string appear in an xmtext widget when i put xmtext translations augment n key f insert string hello in my resource file the translation doesn t happen if i put xmtext translations key f insert string hello in the file i get the text string hello when f is pressed but no other keys work which makes sense since the default translation mode is replace do i have a syntax problem here or something deeper bill massena wam yak boeing com
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage hi i m new to this group so please bear with me two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete i ve finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview i put together a quick test and i ve found that xputimage is considerably slower factor of on average than the sunview command pw rop which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas this was on a sparc ipx it seems that the x protocol communication is slowing things down or xputimage is inefficient or both my question is what is the fastest way in x r to dump plane image data to a window can i take advantage of the fact that the client is running on the same machine as the server or am i stuck with xputimage in which case i might as well give up now all help appreciated thanks derek in article infodev cam ac uk dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson writes derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk animation is most frequently done by copying the the client resident ximages into server resident pixmap s using xputimage once this is done the original ximages can be deleted and the animation loop can be performed using xcopyarea from the pixmaps to the windows drawable hope this is helpfull john
comp.windows.x	calling a library which creates widgets multiple times a few days ago i posted a question about trying to call a function which set up an x app multiple times it was pointed out that xtappinitialize should never be called more than once this helped however i am still having some problems below is a new little test program that more closely models my real program in the actual program i am writing a library callable from any other program this means that the first time the lib function is called it must initialize things and after that it should just use the old stuff still around because of static variables in the demo below main represents the main program calling my library and doit represents the interface to the library function include x xlib h include xm xm h include xm pushb h include stdio h include stdlib h void bla xtappcontext app widget top widget topone top in real prog these are member vars xtappcontext theapp app of a class int junk display dis xtopendisplay theapp null null null null junk null widget box xtvacreatemanagedwidget blaaa xmpushbuttonwidgetclass topone xmnheight xmnwidth null xtrealizewidget topone for int i i i real prog returns when exit button clicked xevent event xtappnextevent theapp event xtdispatchevent event xtdestroywidget box xtclosedisplay dis setitup should be called once only void setitup xtappcontext app widget top int junk top xtappinitialize app test null junk null null null doit some library function callable from the outside void doit static xtappcontext app use these every time called static widget top static int setup if setup setitup app top setup bla app top main program which links to my library main for int i i i doit printf sleeping n widget still on screen at this point sleep the problem is that the widget does not go away until the new one is created it is still on the screen unusuable during the sleep in the main prog despite the xtdestroywidget call anyone see something i m missing thanks very much please respond via email david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder
comp.windows.x	repost accelerators translations i posted this a while ago and didn t recieve one reply and now we have another bug report on the same subject can anybody help me out how can you ensure that accelerators work the same independent of case what i want is ctrl o and ctrl o to both be accelerators on one menu entry in ora vol in the section on accelerators it says for information on how to specify translation tables see vol this is so you know what to put for the xmnaccelerator resource if you go to vol it says likewise if a modifier is specified there is nothing to prohibit other modifiers from being present as well for example the translation shift key q quit will take effect even if the ctrl key is held down at the same time as the shift key and the q key this implies to me that setting xmnaccelerator to ctrl key o should do what i want but it doesn t it doesn t work if the user presses the control key the shift key and the o key is it possible to supply accelerator for a menu entry keep in mind when answering this question that when using motif you can t use xtinstallaccelerators i am using motif on a decstation but i have also tried it on an hp using motif and steve dennis internet sdennis ann arbor applicon slb com software engineer applicon inc ann arbor michigan hail to the victors
comp.windows.x	ftp unix dos unix i m an new to this having found some files public to look into i ftp ed them to a system i have access to i then used kermit to transmit them via modem to my host computer a pc based file system i access internet through modem access to a university mainframe from the pc file server i pull the files to a disk and then pull them from disk to a sgi indigo the sgi is not networked yet when i try to uncompress and un tar the files they either come out as garbage or i get an error in the tar process about directories being invalid what i m wondering about is the transfer of unix files compressed binary ascii about multiple platforms my guess is that it is the copy to a dos disk that is screwing things up any help is appreciated bob
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage hi everyone does anyone know a good way to adjust colourmaps on the fly say during an animation and prevent the current set of colours from flickering thanks robert robert acsc com
comp.windows.x	re how get fontname from fonstruct in article apr narya gsfc nasa gov dealy narya gsfc nasa gov brian dealy csc writes anyone know how an application can retrieve the name of the font from an application given an xfontstruct would xgetfontproperty work if i passed xa font name anyone know details of this thanks in advance brian brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan try this char name null unsigned long value if xgetfontproperty font xa font value name xgetatomname dpy value where dpy is your display connection and font your xfontstruct pointer alan richardson you don t have to be school of maths physical sciences old to be wise univ of sussex brighton bn qh england judas priest uk mppa uk ac sussex syma elsewhere mppa syma sussex ac uk
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm in article r fe inn d fbi news informatik uni dortmund de markhof ls r informatik uni dortmund de ingolf markhof writes i have an alias precmd echo n host cwd g in my tcshrc this is a special alias for tvtwm i presume that you meant to say tcsh here michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom ab stockholm
comp.windows.x	re how do i find my appcontext on apr gmt masc ucsnews sdsu edu todd greene said is there an xt call to give me my application context i am fixing up an x motif program and am trying to use xtappaddtimeout whose first argument is the app context what call can i use to give me this value i believe it s xtvaappinitialize or something like that robert l mcmillin surf city software rlm helen surfcty com dude include std disclaimer h
comp.windows.x	re mix gl with x xlib xt mwm on apr graham sparc ottawa jade com jay graham said i am developing an x xt xm application that will include a graphics window of some sort with moving symbols among other things a pure x application could be implemented with motif widgets one of which would be an xmdrawingarea for drawing with xlib but i would like to take advantage of the graphics library gl available on our ibm rs sgi s gl i believe is it possible to mix x and gl in one application program can i use gl subroutines in an xmdrawingarea or in an x window opened by me with xopenwindow in sgi s distribution with their indigo line others as well possibly they include source code for a gl widget that fits on top of motif and one that s xt based as well you may wish to ask ibm whether they support this robert l mcmillin surf city software rlm helen surfcty com dude include std disclaimer h
comp.windows.x	r version of xrecplay i have and use xrecplay for x r does one exist for x r i have tried to contact one of the developers eric swildens at ess hal com but he is no longer there and has no forwarding email address archie is no help either any help would be appreciated thanks daniel j mccoy space i net inc nasa mail code pt is tel nasa johnson space center our fax houston texas future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	expose configure event handling r vs r i have two questions well probably more about how expose configure events are handled i have an appl which uses window to draw in since i give the user the capability of scaling and zooming as well as allowing the window to be resized i made a translation table for the expose configure events the expose event calls my redraw method while the configure event calls my rescale method the rescale method invokes a fake expose event actually just calls the redraw w an appropriate expose struct to draw the data quest when the appl is compiled linked w r running in either r or r env i get multiple redraws when the window gets uncovered or the size is changed i assume i m getting cascading events is that right any suggestions as to how to handle trap events in a better way quest when the appl is compiled linked w r i get no expose events whatsoever do events and or translation tables act differently in r thanks in advance steve steve kelley umcp cs umiacs captain i protest internet skelley umiacs umd edu i am not a merry man worf
comp.windows.x	looking for a filemanager under x r does anyone have a file manager that runs under unix x r brians brian sheets truck what truck support engineer o o atlas telecom inc raiders of the lost ark brians atlastele com u
comp.windows.x	finding out state of state keys eg capslock and numlock hi i ve looked in the faq and the o reilly books and was unable to find an easy means of finding out the state of state keys such as capslock and numlock i can certainly track the events inside of my window and set a boolean there but what if capslock is pressed in another window i looked at xgrabkey and decided it was definitely not what i wanted to do i could find no convenience function to tell me that information my question is this is there a means of determining what the state of capslock and or numlock is an even more pointed question is there an easy means of making an x keyboard act like a pc keyboard ie capslock is active and the user presses shift a i d like to get a lowercase a instead of a any input is greatly appreciated please respond via email i will repost a summary of my findings thanks ralph
comp.windows.x	store post events store and reply of mouse and keyboard events to produce regression tests or automatic demo s we would like to store all mouse and keyboard events produced by a user it should be possible to filter the mouse and keyboard events from the server s queue an to store them in a file this sequence of events stored in a file should be given to the server s queue as if a user is working exists a tool that is capable to save and reply all mouse and keyboard events where where one can catch these events to store them in our case the server s queue is on a x terminal hp where can we catch all events coming from a given server if this is not possible can we catch all events given to a certain client and how where one can send a stored sequence of events to simulate a user is there a central dispatcher on the clients machine who manages all incoming events from a given server and how can we reach it thanks in advance ron
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage hi i m new to this group so please bear with me two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete i ve finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview i put together a quick test and i ve found that xputimage is considerably slower factor of on average than the sunview command pw rop which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas this was on a sparc ipx it seems that the x protocol communication is slowing things down or xputimage is inefficient or both my question is what is the fastest way in x r to dump plane image data to a window can i take advantage of the fact that the client is running on the same machine as the server or am i stuck with xputimage in which case i might as well give up now all help appreciated thanks derek derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
comp.windows.x	re drawing lines inverse xor in article apr alf uib no singg alf uib no kurt george gjerde writes in article apr news media mit edu dyoung media mit edu david young writes xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxxor xsetforeground mydisplay gc drawindex then to draw i do xdrawline mydisplay xtwindow drawingarea gc x y x y xflush mydisplay and when i m all done to return things to normal i do xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxcopy what i d like to happen is for the lines i draw to be the inverse of whatever i m drawing over instead what happens is i get white lines if the lines are over a white background nothing shows up if the lines are over a black area nothing shows up it s very strange but the gxxor function seems right since if i do a rubber banding box it erases and redraws itself correctly ie not disturbing the underlying image any suggestions what i m doing wrong david try change the gxxor to gxequiv i have to do this for programs that are to run on ncd terminals on sun terminals i have to change it back to gxxor there is a small section in the o reilly xlib books that describes the right thing to do the key is to set the plane mask in the gc to the or of the foreground and background pixel values douglas s rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail cambridge center cambridge ma disclaimer i don t know if osf agrees with me let s vote on it amateur radio kc kj
comp.windows.x	re compiling on sun in article apr aio jsc nasa gov mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes in article qfe wb qzz ez andrew cmu edu wilson swee ws n andrew cmu edu writes i have a piece of x code that compiles fine on pmax ul pmax mach as well as sun mach but whenever it compiles on sun it gives me undefined ld errors sin cos pow floor get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass the following libraries that i linked it to are lxaw lxmu lxt lxext lx the makefile is generated off an imake template can anyone give me pointers as to what i m missing out to compile on a sun well the first are easy you need the math library try adding lm after lx don t know if that s the whole problem but it s a start i think you should try linking to usr lib libxmu a instead of lxmu at least that solved the problem for me
comp.windows.x	authorization in ow hello this is my first net letter so forgive mistakes i have been plagued by problems or lack of info with authorization in open windows for a long while and would like some help please i generally use strait mit x and so don t use ow much but when i share x software with others bad news problem my friend who logs into his ssii trys to run my program that runs fine on my machine however my friend gets client not authorized to connect to server or something close if ow is started with the noauth option all is well but surely this is not required in general also xhost does not work becoming root does not work etc any help will be greatly appreciated thanx send replies to neuralog neosoft com or this news group
comp.windows.x	re program argument geometry i have a question regarding the processing of program arguments such as the geometry option since this is a standard x option i m wondering wether i have to parse it manually or whether there is some predefined function that will do this for me if you are using the intrinsics it is parsed for you if you are working at the xlib level you can parse it yourself or you can use the following bit of code static xrmoptiondescrec options geometry geometry xrmoptionseparg xpointer null define number x sizeof x sizeof x xrmparsecommand db options number options myapplication argc argv then use xrmgetresource to retrieve the value and parse it using xparsegeometry it is probably quicker to parse it yourself from argv however i much prefer using the x resource management routines to do this patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	re mwm title drag crashes x server sigpipe in article apr ncar ucar edu boote eureka scd ucar edu jeff w boote writes in article creatures cs vt edu ramakris csgrad cs vt edu s ramakrishnan writes environment mach arch sparc sun ipx os sunos x x r patchlevel motif i bring up x server using startx and usr bin x xsun the following sequence of actions crashes the x server sigpipe errno xinit reports that connexion to x server lost i had this problem as well it had to do with the cg graphics card that comes with the ipx what fixed the problem for me was to apply the sungx uu that was part of patch patch also used this file so perhaps you didn t apply the one that came with patch jeff jeff w boote boote ncar ucar edu scientific computing division there is nothing good or bad national center for atmospheric research but thinking makes it so boulder hamlet thanx jeff you re a lifesaver i imported the new sun gx emulator that came in with patch the problem has since disappeared thanx to der schoene mouse for his help too s ramakrishnan cs dept mcbryde hall vatech
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article apr infodev cam ac uk dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson writes hi i m new to this group so please bear with me two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete i ve finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview i put together a quick test and i ve found that xputimage is considerably slower factor of on average than the sunview command pw rop which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas this was on a sparc ipx it seems that the x protocol communication is slowing things down or xputimage is inefficient or both using xputimage your source is maintained by the client and the destination is maintained by the server thus you incur the overhead of transporting through whatever client server communications mechanism you are using is it possible for you to maintain your source images in pixmaps these are maintained by the server so copying them into a window is much cheaper also make sure you are not sending any unnecessary xsyncs or running in xsynchonize mode paul pmartz dsd es com evans sutherland
comp.windows.x	xsun not running on sparcclassic i ve installed x r with patches for solaris on our sparcstation lx sparcclassic pool on the lx x r runs fine but on the classics after giving the command startx xsun prints the following messages warning cg mmap can t map dummy space mapping cg c no such device or address and exits does anybody know how to fix this problem thanks in advance christian rank lehrstuhl fuer wirtschaftsinformatik universitaet passau innstr d passau
comp.windows.x	re mix gl with x xlib xt mwm pyeatt texaco com writes there is a widget already defined for gl it is the glxmdraw motif or glxdraw athena widget it is similar to a xmdrawingarea except that it allows you to use gl calls to render into the window look at glxlink glxunlink glxgetconfig and glxwinset in the man pages where do i get hold of these widgets gerard o driscoll gerard odriscoll dps co uk du pont pixel systems ltd
comp.windows.x	x support for pressure sensitive tablet are there any vendors supporting pressure sensitive tablet pen with x i will appreciate any pointers thanks sanjay baldwa adobe com or decwrl adobe baldwa
comp.windows.x	re automated x testing mark d collier mark trident datasys swri edu wrote does anyone know what is available in terms of automated testing of x motif applications i am thinking of a system which i could program or which could record events output with our verification test procedures and then run rerun each time we do regression testing i am interested in a product like this for our unix projects and for a separate project which will be using openvms a question like this is answered in the faq about sharing x windows one of the answers is xtrap a record and playback extenstion to x you can find it at export lcs mit edu contrib xtrapv x r tar z does anyone know of a program which doesn t require an x extension most the the x servers we have at work have vendor extensions which we can t modify so xtrap doesn t help up there is x conferencing software at mit but i don t know how easy it would be to modify it to do record and playback any help would be appreciated bill poitras molecular simulations inc tel bill msi com sunnyvale ca fax ftp mail mail ftpmail decwrl dec com offers ftp via email subject cr help cr quit
comp.windows.x	re need shading program example in x do anyone know about any shading program based on xlib in the public domain i need an example about how to allocate correct colormaps for the program appreciate the help i don t know if this might help but i ve just started playing with a program called povray persistance of vision raytracer that also displays its output via x windows it does a fairly good job of allocating the colormap on my psuedo color plane display i got the source from from a site in canda the person i retrieved them from was david buck dbuck ccs carleton ca patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window in article c r y hfz cs columbia edu ethan cs columbia edu ethan solomita writes hi i m trying to figure out how to make a window manager place the window where the create window command tells it regardless of what it may think is right my application has reason to know better i don t want to set the override redirect because i do want all the embellishments that the window manager gives i just want the wm to accept my choice of location what it may think is right may be exactly what the user wants assuming that your application has reason to know better is imho anti social if i start your application with a geometry option are you going to ignore that as well there s really no way to force a window manager to do much of anything if it s managing your window you can ask you can hint but there s no guarantee that you re going to get what you want tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window in article bading apr athene cs tu berlin de bading cs tu berlin de tobias doping bading writes try this after xcreatewindow include x xutil h display display window window xsizehints xsizehints xallocsizehints xsizehints flags usposition ussize or pposition psize xsizehints x xsizehints y xsizehints width xsizehints height xsetwmnormalhints display window xsizehints xfree xsizehints these hints tell the window manager that the position and size of the window are specified by the users and that the window manager should accept these values if you use xsizehints flags pposition psize this tells the window manager that the values are prefered values of the program not the user i don t know a window manager that doesn t place the window like you prefer if you specify the position and size like above you are right but please don t do this it makes my brain hurt usposition and ussize should only be set if the user specified the position and size you say tom don t blow a gasket what s the harm some window managers do very different things besides positioning the window when they see usposition rather than pposition tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
comp.windows.x	re build x r with xlc aix e on apr gmt dla se wg waii com doug acker said doug nntp posting host se wg waii com i am having a big problem trying to build mit x r with xlc the one bundled with aix e its almost the linker is not working properly with shared libraries i ve built x r with no problem before but now its all headaches for example the xset client complains that libxmu doesnt have a bunch of xt routines and shr o is missing or something like that the build of libxmu does link in libxt so i am really perplexed what is going on following up on this the specific error i get is could not load program xset symbol xtvasetvalues in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtname in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtwindowofobject in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtgetconstraintresourcelist in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtdisplaytoapplicationcontext in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtappsettypeconverter in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtscreendatabase in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtresolvepathname in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtcvtstringtofont in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtcallconverter in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtdisplaystringconversionwarning in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined could not load library libxmu a shr o error was exec format error douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products a division of western atlas international inc a litton dresser company internet acker wg waii com voice
comp.windows.x	re compiling on sun in article yfo qfe wb qzz ez andrew cmu edu wilson swee ws n andrew cmu edu writes sin cos pow floor link with lm math library get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass this is a bug in sun s shared libraries linking with assert nodefinitions should do the trick n
comp.windows.x	re build x r with xlc aix e on apr gmt dla se wg waii com doug acker said doug nntp posting host se wg waii com on apr gmt dla se wg waii com doug acker said doug nntp posting host se wg waii com doug i am having a big problem trying to build mit x r with xlc doug the one bundled with aix e its almost the linker is not doug working properly with shared libraries doug i ve built x r with no problem before but now its all headaches doug for example the xset client complains that libxmu doesnt have a bunch doug of xt routines and shr o is missing or something like that the doug build of libxmu does link in libxt so i am really perplexed what is doug going on doug following up on this the specific error i get is doug could not load program xset doug symbol xtvasetvalues in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtname in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtwindowofobject in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtgetconstraintresourcelist in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtdisplaytoapplicationcontext in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtappsettypeconverter in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtscreendatabase in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtresolvepathname in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtcvtstringtofont in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtcallconverter in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtdisplaystringconversionwarning in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug could not load library libxmu a shr o doug error was exec format error a search on ibmlink revealed that this is similar to ix howervre this was closed use douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products a division of western atlas international inc a litton dresser company internet acker wg waii com voice
comp.windows.x	positioning a window under openlook hi there netters i require a window to appear at a co ordinates top left corner of my screen root window could some windows guru out there help me on how to go about doing this i write the whole program which creates the window with the image it displays i require the image to appear at the top left corner so that i can grab it for recording on to video using a minivas controller which expects the window at the same spot every time thanks in advance sincerely sanjeev sharma office e mail deptt of computing science sharma monet vill edu villanova university
comp.windows.x	tape down selections i just had an idea i m not sure if its been done and i m just remembering it unconsiously but i thought that in dialog boxes and whatever in windowing systems there should be a way to intuitivly set some things checked or unchecked or filled in a certain way my idea tape you know like putting a piece of tape over a light switch just an idea if you like it use it daniel drucker n sxx xyzzy gnu ai mit edu forever forever my coda und dzd vaxc hofstra edu
comp.windows.x	xman source where can i get xman source i would like to get the binaries for xman for an hp but i would settle for source john o f long bnr inc if there is no god who pops jlong bnr ca up the next kleenex include standard disclaimer h art hoppe
comp.windows.x	detecting read only colorcells again poseted for a friend okay i got such great response from my last question thanks everyone lets try again how can i tell if a colorcell is read only i want to use any read only cells that are already in my colormap once i start running out of allocatable cells using some arbitrary nearest color matching scheme to get those cells that come closest to a requested color once i determine if a cell is read only i assume i can then just request an xalloccolor with the exact same color specifications and it will then be flagged as used by my application so that it doesn t later get freed by someone else and allocated again as read write to another application so far the only way i ve figured out to do this is to write my own error handler and just go ahead and request the cells colors once my colormap is all full up it should error out if the cell is non shareable but life would be much easier if i could just detect the read only shareable stuff directly any ideas noel ngorelic speclab cr usgs gov
comp.windows.x	re colormaps and window managers in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu mouse thunder mcrcim mcgill edu der mouse writes in article c duhc p cs cmu edu das cs cmu edu david simon writes can some one please explain to me why the following piece of code causes twm or tvtwm to dump core in particular i am interested in knowing whether this behavior is caused by a bug in my reasoning or if it is a bug in twm if anything a client does causes twm to dump core it s a bug in twm window managers should never ever crash would if only it were true if only mit would fix the twm installwindowcolormaps crash bug once and for all then i could say that i ve almost unable to crash either twm or tvtwm which would be a remarkable feat and most desirable to boot i mean this bug has only been reported oh a zillion times by now now servers on the other hand want to crash an openwindows xnews server at will just do an xbiff xrm xbiff shapewindow on blammo greg earle phone fax internet earle isolar tujunga ca us uucp isolar earle elroy jpl nasa gov a k a elroy isolar earle
comp.windows.x	re tvtwm xsetroot x r and sparcstation keyboard in article r q g cv genesis ait psu edu barr pop psu edu david barr writes in article mailqueue oak shu ac uk d haywood sheffield hallam ac uk writes environment sun sparc sunos x r patch level my x process is started by xdm okay that s good i m typing this from exactly the same setup us unix layout keyboard i did install the sunkbd patch though ii when i open an xterm on the sparc not all of the keys are recognised and some keys on the keyboard are not sending the correct characters did you install the sunkbd patch it s in the contrib directory on export all the keys on my keyboard send events properly except the following the end pageup pagedown on the key cluster aren t recognized even the compose key works though i can t seem to get the composed characters in an xterm to get passed anyone have a fix for the last two i don t know anything about a sunkbd patch but i use the following xmodmap file run from xinitrc via xmodmap home xmodmap of course for my type unix keyboard it s a bit brute force however sun type unix keyboard remappings this remaps the arrow keys properly by default the arrow keys on the keypad shift up shift left shift right and shift down work but the arrow keys are not assigned to any keysym keycode up keycode left keycode down keycode right now we want the back space key to emit the delete keysym keycode delete other random mappings that aren t on by default sysrq print screen key keycode sunsys req print break pause key keycode break pause alt graph key keycode mode switch pageup key keycode prior pagedown key keycode next insert key keycode insert home end keys open look functions stop key sunstop keysym cancel keycode sunstop again key sunagain redo keycode sunagain props key keycode sunprops undo key sunundo undo keycode sunundo front key keycode sunfront copy key keycode suncopy open key keycode sunopen paste key keycode sunpaste find key sunfind find keycode sunfind cut key keycode suncut greg earle phone fax internet earle isolar tujunga ca us uucp isolar earle elroy jpl nasa gov a k a elroy isolar earle
comp.windows.x	question regarding overlaying of graphics hello i wonder if some one can suggest an answer to the following question i am a total x novice and would appreciate any suggestions you may have i am trying to create a simple drawing tool let s say i have two rectangles on the canvas see above one intersecting the other now i would like to delete one of the rectangles the way i do it is to create another gc wherein i use the gxxor logical function and simply redraw the rectangle using the newly created graphics context thus deleting it for all apparent purposes a problem with this approach is that at the points of intersection the pixel locations belonging to the other rectangle also become white which is something that should be avoided is there any way i can avoid this problem without having to redraw the other rectangle too i also would not like to generate an expose event for the affected area as this degrades performance very badly thank you gopal
comp.windows.x	x terminal question a simple question to all the xperts is it possible to use several x terminals with only one mouse and one keyboard any suggestions thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co at
comp.windows.x	ncsa mosaic for x available version of ncsa mosaic for the x window system a networked information systems and world wide web browser is hereby released file ftp ncsa uiuc edu mosaic xmosaic source xmosaic tar z xmosaic binaries xmosaic sun z xmosaic binaries xmosaic sgi z xmosaic binaries xmosaic ibm z xmosaic binaries xmosaic dec z xmosaic binaries xmosaic alpha z xmosaic diffs xmosaic diffs z ncsa mosaic provides a consistent and easy to use hypermedia based interface into a wide variety of networked information sources including gopher wais world wide web nntp usenet news techinfo ftp local filesystems archie finger hyper g hytelnet texinfo telnet tn and more this release of ncsa mosaic is known to compile on the following platforms sgi irix ibm aix sun sunos with stock x r and motif and gcc dec ultrix dec alpha axp osf documentation is available online changes since include o added new resource gethostbynameisevil for sun s that coredump when gethostbyname is called to try to find out what their own names are command line flag is ghbnie o explicitly pop down all dialog boxes when document view window is closed for window managers too dull to do so themselves o better visited anchor color for non sgi s o added hqx and uu to list of file extensions handled like tar files o added clear button to open box to allow more convenient cut n paste entries of url s o new resource autoplacewindows if set to false new document view windows will not be automatically positioned by the program itself but it s still up to your window manager just how they re placed o command line flags i and iconic now have desired effect new resource initialwindowiconic can also be used o gif reading code is a little more bulletproof o obscure infinite loop triggered by extra space in img tag fixed o eliminated nonintuitive error message when image can t be read inlined ncsa bitmap is indication enough that something s not right for authors and readers can t do anything about bad images in any case o obscure parsing bug for constructs like address a href text a address fixed o fixed mysterious stupid coredump that only hits suns o fixed stupid coredump on url s like cbl leeds ac uk o fixed buglet in handling rlogin url s o new support for solaris sysvr courtesy dana thumper bellcore com o better support for hp ux x and x courtesy johns hpwarf wal hp com o better support for next courtesy scott shrug dur ac uk o some miscellaneous portability fixes courtesy bingle cs purdue edu o miscellaneous bug fixes and cleanups comments questions and bug reports should be sent to mosaic x ncsa uiuc edu thanks in advance for any feedback you can provide cheers marc marc andreessen software development group national center for supercomputing applications marca ncsa uiuc edu
comp.windows.x	re wanted info on dedicated x server kernel for sun series if anyone has any information about the existence or location of a dedicated x server kernel for the sun please send email i am trying to put some neglected sun s to good use but they don t have enough memory for sunos thanks in advance for any help there is a free program called xkernel which does just that it is by seth robertson seth ctr columbia edu it takes a sun and boots a limited kernel which allows you to run x we converted machines over this semester and the speedup is enormously appreciable i find them faster than an ncd inch black white xterminal that we are playing with and a bigger screen to boot as a matter of fact the department just bought some old sun s at an auction to convert xkernel is available for anonymous ftp from ftp ctr columbia edu in xkernel xkernel shar xkernel is a symlink to the latest version of xkernel note that the compiled version which is available is for the sun but compiling to work for a sun xx should be quite easy i am not connected with xkernel except as a satisfied installer and user i may be able to answer questions feel free to email me greg owen gowen forte cs tufts edu gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer and ta tufts university computer science dept all transfers are disclaimed by my host name and boss s address if you don t like this policy disconnect now
comp.windows.x	re animation i think you tried to send me a message re the animation query i posted to comp windows x i ve appended what i received below if you can remember what you typed i d appreciate another attempt derek derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk begin included message from aol com postmaster thu apr received by cast ast cam ac uk uk smail id m nlsg mpc cast ast cam ac uk thu apr bst received from sco prod aol net by hp prod aol net with smtp id aa wed apr from postmaster aol com x mailer america online mailer to dcr mail ast cam ac uk subject returned mail unknown member date wed apr edt message id tn aol com status r the mail you sent could not be delivered it was addressed to an unknown user the text you sent follows hi i m new to this group so please bear with me two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete i ve finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview i put together a quick test and i ve found that xputimage is considerably slower factor of on average than the sunview command pw rop which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas this was on a sparc ipx it seems that the x protocol communication is slowing things down or xputimage is inefficient or both my question is what is the fastest way in x r to dump plane image data to a window can i take advantage of the fact that the client is running on the same machine as the server or am i stuck with xputimage in which case i might as well give up now all help appreciated thanks derek derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk headers from uupsi expo lcs mit edu xpert mailer wed apr remote from aolsys received from uupsi by aolsys aol com id aa wed apr edt received from expo lcs mit edu by uu psi com b psi psinet via smtp id aa for wed apr received by expo lcs mit edu wed apr received from enterpoop mit edu by expo lcs mit edu wed apr received by enterpoop mit edu id aa wed apr received from usenet by enterpoop with netnewsfor xpert expo lcs mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu contact usenet enterpoop if you have questions to xpert expo lcs mit edu date wed apr gmt from dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson message id apr infodev cam ac uk organization institute of astronomy cambridge reply to dcr mail ast cam ac uk subject animation with xputimage end included message
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article mlb semi harris com jmartin egret imagesrus john martin writes animation is most frequently done by copying the the client resident ximages into server resident pixmap s using xputimage once this is done the original ximages can be deleted and the animation loop can be performed using xcopyarea from the pixmaps to the windows drawable hope this is helpfull john i just implemented this and it seems i can just about achieve the display rates x x frames sec on ipx that i get with sunview though it s a bit choppy at times also loading the data making an ximage then xput ing it into a pixmap is a bit cumbersome so the animation is slower to load than with sunview is there a better way to load in the data rgooch rp csiro au richard gooch writes if you need speed and your client can run on the same host as the x server you should use the shared memory extension to the sample x server mit shm xdpyinfo will tell you if your server has this extension this is certainly available with the sample mit x server running under sunos a word of warning make sure your kernel is configured to support shared memory and another word of warning openwindows is slower than the mit server i have written an imaging tool using xview for the gui by the way which yields over frames per second for bit images running on a sparc ipc half the cpu grunt of an ipx this has proved quite sufficient for animations regards richard gooch shared memory putimage also mentioned by nkissebe delphi beckman uiuc edu nick kisseberth looks interesting but i need someone to point me to some documentation is this method likely to give better results than server resident pixmaps i d also be interested in looking at the xview code mentioned above thanks for the help so far if i get something decent put together i ll definitely post it to the net derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
comp.windows.x	what determines the default x font i m running x under openwindows normal x programs not having a font specified always show up in the same font until i change the fontpath and restart windows then a new default font is used until the next change i can t seem to figure out how it chooses is there some way to set this possibly something in xdefaults please reply in direct email i summarize kurt swanson dept of computer science lunds universitet kurt swanson dna lth se
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window bading cs tu berlin de tobias doping bading writes try this after xcreatewindow xsizehints flags usposition ussize or pposition psize xsetwmnormalhints display window xsizehints these hints tell the window manager that the position and size of the window are specified by the users and that the window manager should accept these values if you use xsizehints flags pposition psize this tells the window manager that the values are prefered values of the program not the user i don t know a window manager that doesn t place the window like you prefer if you specify the position and size like above sorry but olwm and tvtwm don t do it they place the title at that position and the window at a position below it this becomes a problem when you want a program to be able to save its current configuration and restore is later currently my solution is xcreatewindow xsetwmproperties xmapwindow xflush xmovewindow it works with olwm but is less than elegant all this leaves me wondering if i m overlooking something obvious richard
comp.windows.x	overriding default behaviour usually when i start up an application i first get the window outline on my display i then have to click on the mouse button to actually place the window on the screen yet when i specify the geometry option the window appears right away the properties specified by the geometry argument the question now is how can i override the intermediary step of the user having to specify window position with a mouseclick i ve tried explicitly setting window size and position but that did alter the normal program behaviour thanks for any hints robert ps i m working in plain x robert gasch der erste mai ist der tag an dem die stadt ins oracle engineering freihe tritt und den staatlichen monopolanspruch de meern nl auf gewalt in frage stellt rgasch nl oracle com einstuerzende neubauten
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article apr infodev cam ac uk dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson writes two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete i ve finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview i put together a quick test and i ve found that xputimage is considerably slower factor of on average than the sunview command pw rop which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas this was on a sparc ipx it seems that the x protocol communication is slowing things down or xputimage is inefficient or both my question is what the protocol has to move the whole image from process memory to server memory this is the hog the conversions in the xputimage are fast is the fastest way in x r to dump plane image data to a window can i take advantage of the fact that the client is running on the same machine as the server or am i stuck with yes by utilizing the mit shm extension that provides an xputimage derivate that uses shared memory fine fast xputimage in which case i might as well give up now no you can still xputimage all of the frames onto pixmaps thus moving them to server memory and then replay them fastest using xcopyarea but be aware this is a major server memory bummer o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	dxf format display hi i am looking for an x app that will display dxf files these are ascii text files that are normally associated with autocad i have a large meg file of the state of wisconsin that i would like to views and or cut into smaller chunks i also would like to find a complete file layout for dxf files any information would be appreciated patrick l mcgillan computer systems specialist university of wisconsin ph superior wisconsin pmcgilla uwsuper edu
comp.windows.x	x window for pc if a x window package exists that runs om pc dos and maybe ms windows i would be very happy to hear about it thanx in advance eigil krogh sorensen
comp.windows.x	vanishing font problem a colleague has a bizarre font problem on his new mips workstation when he first logs on via xdm he has a single xterm window appear with the mwm window manager running in this configuration x windows applications particularly xdvi work fine however if he opens up a second xterm application suddenly xdvi cannot start in either window giving the error unable to load iso font the only difference between the two xterm windows is that the initial one references a different name in the xsession file with prettier colours and other slight changes further investigation shows that only opening a default xterm causes this behaviour and more significant all x applications can no longer load any fonts if they are invoked from the command line in either window if i start the xterm with a different font using the fn option no problems it would seem that the default xterm is loading a font which somehow causes the server to lose all of its fonts note xlsfonts in either window shows all of the fonts available so there doesn t appear to be a problem in the font directories hash tables other than rewriting the xterm app defaults file to use a different font and hope for the best does anyone have any ideas more info this is the most recent mips workstation r i believe with the most current operating system and running x r it is not mwm s fault as the same problems occur under twm etc
comp.windows.x	postscript on x terminal i have a problem when i m using postscript when i am working local on a sun sparcstaton ipc the postscript works good but when i connect to the sun from a x terminal i just get error messages that the postscript cannot connect to the news display why doesn t postscript work on an x terminal is there any way to make it work henrik henrik hjort hjort
comp.windows.x	re image processing packages under x prateek mishra mishra cs sunysb edu wrote i am looking for a package that implements standard image processing functions reading writing from standard formats clipping zoom etc implemented under x both public domain and private packages are of interest the particular application area i have in mind is medical imaging but a package meant for a more general context would be acceptable please reply to me i will summarize on the net if there is general interest prateek mishra mishra sbcs sunysb edu keep tabs with the faq in sci image processing there is quite a comprehensive compilation of image processing s w x included i ve ftp ed imagemagick and its great check out the faq its all there
comp.windows.x	a strange problem with text hello i am testing a port of x r to coherent a unix clone os for intel architecture machines i am seeing a strange problem with text in clients like xvt a simple terminal emulator program the problem manifests it self when the shell echoes typed characters back to the server for display one at a time the characters appear to be too closely spaced with the result being that the nd character echoed destroys the rightmost edge of the first character then the rd character destroys the rightmost edge of the second character and so on it looks like there is an invisible boundary around a character which obscures a portion of the previous character there is no problem between the characters when the shell returns a complete line of text only when the output is a series of individual characters if anyone has any ideas what the problem might be or where i should look to find it it would be much appreciated regards and thanks jon dhuse jon dhuse internet jdhuse sedona intel com intel corp ch phone w chandler blvd any opinions expressed are my own chandler az not my employer s
comp.windows.x	cxterm on mips hello has anyone built cxterm x r on a mips platform if you have please send me email as i don t read this group i ve a bunch of questions thanks edward m greshko control data taiwan voice x f nanking east road section fax taipei taiwan r o c
comp.windows.x	re repost accelerators translations in sdennis aa cad slb com sdennis osf org writes i posted this a while ago and didn t receive one reply and now we have another bug report on the same subject can anybody help me out the problem is that motif uses xgrabkey to implement menu accelerators and these grabs are specific about which modifiers apply unfortunately the specification for xgrabkey doesn t allow anymodifier to be combined with other modifiers which is exactly what would be desired in this case ctrl any key q in ora vol in the section on accelerators it says for information on how to specify translation tables see vol this is so you know what to put for the xmnaccelerator resource if you go to vol it says likewise if a modifier is specified there is nothing to prohibit other modifiers from being present as well for example the translation shift key q quit will take effect even if the ctrl key is held down at the same time as the shift key and the q key this is true for accelerators and mnemonics which are implemented using event handlers instead of grabs it s not true for menu accelerators if you re a motif implementor i d suggest lobbying to get the xlib semantics changed to support the feature i described above otherwise change the documentation for menu accelerators to properly set the user s expectations because menu accelerators are not the same thing as translations is it possible to supply accelerator for a menu entry if you mean menu accelerator no it s not possible that s according to the definition of the xmnaccelerator resource in the xmlabel manual page keep in mind when answering this question that when using motif you can t use xtinstallaccelerators i can t think of a reason why not how can you ensure that accelerators work the same independent of case what i want is ctrl o and ctrl o to both be accelerators on one menu entry there is a workaround for motif users in addition to the normal menu accelerator you install on the xmpushbutton gadget set an xtnaccelerators resource on the shell toplevel or application install the shell s accelerators on itself and all of its descendants with xtinstallallaccelerators shell shell for example applicationshell mainwindow menubar filecascade filepulldown openpushbutton exitpushbutton openpushbutton accelerator ctrl key o openpushbutton acceleratortext ctrl o exitpushbutton accelerator ctrl key q exitpushbutton acceleratortext ctrl q applicationshell accelerators override n ctrl key o performaction openpushbutton armandactivate n ctrl key q performaction exitpushbutton armandactivate you have to write and add the application action performaction which you can implement by using xtnametowidget on the first argument and then xtcallactionproc with the rest of the arguments i tested out something similar to this to shorten development time i used teleuse s tuninstallaccelerators resource to install the accelerators on the shell and i directly invoked the open and quit d actions instead of asking the pushbuttons to do it for me but the more general approach i described above should work trevor bourget trevor telesoft com
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article apr infodev cam ac uk dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson writes i just implemented this and it seems i can just about achieve the display rates x x frames sec on ipx that i get with sunview though it s a bit choppy at times also loading the data making an ximage then xput ing it into a pixmap is a bit cumbersome so the animation is slower to load than with sunview is there a better way to load in the data rgooch rp csiro au richard gooch writes if you need speed and your client can run on the same host as the x server you should use the shared memory extension to the sample x server mit shm xdpyinfo will tell you if your server has this extension this is certainly available with the sample mit x server running under sunos a word of warning make sure your kernel is configured to support shared memory and another word of warning openwindows is slower than the mit server i have written an imaging tool using xview for the gui by the way which yields over frames per second for bit images running on a sparc ipc half the cpu grunt of an ipx this has proved quite sufficient for animations regards richard gooch shared memory putimage also mentioned by nkissebe delphi beckman uiuc edu nick kisseberth looks interesting but i need someone to point me to some documentation is this method likely to give better results than server resident pixmaps i d also be interested in looking at the xview code mentioned above thanks for the help so far if i get something decent put together i ll definitely post it to the net the mit tapes come with documentation written by keith packard on the shared memory extension to x look in mit doc extensions mit shm ms i found this invaluble unfortunately there is a bit of work to set up the shared memory segments making an ximage from it etc also there is an extension query to determine if the server supports it but you still need to test if the server is running on the same host and if shared memory is enabled in the kernel i have written layers of convience routines which make all this transparent as for the xview code well i doubt that would be considered interesting the interesting stuff is done in a c object library people interested in this code can email me regards richard gooch rgooch atnf csiro au
comp.windows.x	need help with key bindings i need help binding some value to the home and end keys on my keyboard i have an rs w aix ext running x r pl mit dist i m using a pc running exceed for windows as my xterminal the home and end keys do not send a value and my application needs them to be defined i used this in my xdefaults to define the keys varnet vt translations override key home string n key end string then i xterm name varnet this works perfect however the and the key on my keypad are also defined as and any ideas help please thanks egan f ford egan phony cc utah edu hellgate utah edu
comp.windows.x	core dump from getcons we are getting a memory fault and a core dump whenever we end a motif session under ultrix running on a dec an examintion of the core file leads us to believe it s from getcons does anyone know what this is all about marc marc wiener marc aip org american institute of physics sunnyside blvd voice woodbury ny fax
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article nrao edu rgooch rp csiro au richard gooch writes the mit tapes come with documentation written by keith packard on the shared memory extension to x look in mit doc extensions mit shm ms i found this invaluble unfortunately there is a bit of work to set up the shared memory segments making an ximage from it etc also there is an extension query to determine if the server supports it but you still need to test if the server is running on the same host and if shared memory is enabled in the kernel i have written layers of convience routines which make all this transparent as for the xview code well i doubt that would be considered interesting the interesting stuff is done in a c object library people interested in this code can email me regards richard gooch rgooch atnf csiro au thanks for docs info it turns out that if i leave out colormap updates between frames and use tvtwm my tests with x x frames on an ipx using the server resident pixmap method give an astonishing frames per second and very smooth i think i ve found the best solution thanks to the generous help on this group however i may have colormap questions later derek derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson writes shared memory putimage also mentioned by nkissebe delphi beckman uiuc edu nick kisseberth looks interesting but i need someone to point me to some documentation is this method likely to give better results than server resident pixmaps i d also be interested in looking at the xview code mentioned above there s documentation on how to use the shared memory extension in the x r distribution actually i just finished writing a motif animation program take lots of image data and display it pretty darn fast when using on server pixmaps or shared memory i had to insert a delay loop to keep it from going too quickly testing both methods side by side they were just about equal the advantage of shm is that your x server doesn t grow to ridiculous sizes but pixmaps can work over a network and are removed if your application dies one tends to use ipcrm manually quite a bit when debugging shm apps shared memory also has the problem that some operating systems e g ultrix seem to allow only a small number of segments to be attached to a process at once consequently a redraw becomes xshmattach xshmputimage xshmdetach on dec systems and dec s bit displays like the ones i tend to use most often don t seem to support the extension maybe someone compiled them wrong and using pixmaps causes the x server to crash failed mallocs so one has to use the local unix domain socket which really isn t that bad one copies the info three times per redraw instead of one in short allowing all three forms of display within the program is a good thing minus shm if running over a network and let the user pick whatever feels fastest i just use an ximagehandler class and forget about it rob
comp.windows.x	pixmaps and colormaps sent through selections i want to be able to send a pixmap from one client to the next along with this i want to send the colormap and foreground and background pixel values so far not a problem i can do this with no problem however once i have the pixmap id and the colormap id how do i go about telling the server that the second receiving client now wants to have associations with the two id s tia john o john l cwikla o o o x programmer o x was never the first o o wolfram research inc o letter of the alphabet o o cwikla wri com o o
comp.windows.x	dynamic squeezetitle configuration in twm i consider twm style squeezed titles indispensable in a window manager i like to have two tall xterm windows visible at the same time with no overlap and since two windows aren t enough i have other xterm windows underneath them with exactly the same positioning in case you re not familiar with squeezed titles here s a crude picture figure title a title b title c this is the window b hides window c but body of the you can still see c s title window window a which is squeezed right figure squeezed titles allow me to have about such windows in each stack with easy access and per stack is usually more than i really need since i also insist on having a virtual wm the only problem is that the title location is static that is it is configured in twmrc and in order to change it you have to edit that file and restart the window manager doing so is cumbersome and time consuming therefore i have implemented f squeeze left center right functions in my own copy of vtwm the idea being that with one click of a button you can change this title a this is the body of the window window a to this title a this is the body of the window window a okay so far so good now how the heck do i get them to put this into the next official twm and the next tvtwm and the next vtwm and the next ctwm and the next xyztwm that i never heard of one way would be to post in comp windows x a description of this enhancement together with an explanation of why i think it is a very good thing and hope that someone reads it in case it isn t already clear why i think it s a very good thing look back up at figure and picture window a moved over on top of windows b and c now window a s title hides window b s title but when you hit f squeezecenter the result is title b title a title c this is the body of the window window a which is on top the rest of this posting explains how to implement it based on my x r copy of vtvwm shar it s just a sketch because posting the full diffs would be too long the key to this enhancement is to add the following lines in the executefunction routine in menus c ifdef shape case f squeezeleft static squeezeinfo left squeeze j left if deferexecution context func scr selectcursor return true tmp win squeeze info left squeeze setframeshape tmp win break and similarly for squeezeright j right and squeezecenter j center endif of course you also have to define f squeezeleft in parse h and add f squeezeleft fkeyword f squeezeleft and so forth to parse c in order to use these functions add something like the following to your twmrc file button m s w v d r i t door f squeezecenter about a year ago i posted this but our news was broken and i think it didn t get out since then blast has appeared in comp sources x volume issue you could use blast to achieve a similar effect by chiseling away at an mwm style wide title better to have a twm style window manager i think ralph betza fm uunet ssiny gnohmon gnohmon ssiny com the question of whether a computer can swim is more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can think lenny dykstra
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage shared memory putimage also mentioned by nkissebe delphi beckman uiuc edu nick kisseberth looks interesting but i need someone to point me to some documentation is this method likely to give better results than server resident pixmaps i d also be interested in looking at the xview code mentioned above there is no easy answer to this question it depends on whether the display device can hold pixmaps in off screen memory and if so how efficiently the server manages these resources having to deal with limited off screen memory is the bane of the server implementor s existence i have worked with graphics devices where the off screen memory to main display copy rate eclipses that of the main memory to display copy rate and with those where the main memory to display is faster than off screen to display requires only a write to the framebuffer rather than a read of the f b followed by a write if your server uses the cfb code or something like it to render into pixmaps in cpu main memory the rates you can get through mit shm are likely to be equal maybe a tad slower depending on your os s implementation of shared memory to copyarea from pixmap to window which is also then just a copy from cpu main memory to graphics device one advanage of mit shm is that if your images are large you don t end up growing the size of the server process to hold them one disadvantage of the mit shm is that in its sample implementation there is no provision for elegantly cleaning up the shared memory segments if the client dies a sudden violent death e g kill you have to be mindful of cluttering up the system with zombie shared memory segments ken kenneth whaley kubota pacific computer inc email whaley kpc com walsh avenue santa clara ca
comp.windows.x	help on xlib and include files hi xperts i have a sparc with very limited disk space on usr partition previously i was able to run all x windows applications and then i upgraded my system to sun o s and realized that the hard disk did not have enough space to load openwindows my immediate alternative was to load only the neccessary files to boot the system this resulted in not loading openwindows as a result of which none of the x libraries got loaded i am trying to load just the libraries and include files and bin x files required for running x windows and compiling my programs written for xlib and xaw in a desperate effort to regain x windows i retrieved usr lib libx files from the tape usr bin x and usr include x is this enough for running x windows but i did not get usr lib x fonts sub directories these are mainly dpi dpi and misc when i run xinit the error message says usr lib x fonts dpi etc are not in the default path but the problem is i cannot load any of those directories as there is no disk space are there any temporary suggestions before i get a gb disk and load openwindows to just have my x windows running thanks pramod
comp.windows.x	writing a motif widget can anyone give me some information please i need probably to write one or more new motif widgets on the hp ux platform do i need the motif private header files and source or can i make do with the public headers that are provided motif includes xt in this context one widget is a multi column list which lots of people have already written i am sure and would therefore be probably be a subclass of list rather than something simple like an xt class is this more difficult in principle not lines of code alternatively if anyone has a multi column list widget they could sell me this might save me from having to write one does it by any chance exist in motif already i do not yet have the spec answers appreciated nicholas nicholas young
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window in article r l g bub wsinfo win tue nl rcb wsinfo win tue nl richard verhoeven writes bading cs tu berlin de tobias doping bading writes try this after xcreatewindow xsizehints flags usposition ussize or pposition psize xsetwmnormalhints display window xsizehints these hints tell the window manager that the position and size of the window are specified by the users and that the window manager should accept these values if you use xsizehints flags pposition psize this tells the window manager that the values are prefered values of the program not the user i don t know a window manager that doesn t place the window like you prefer if you specify the position and size like above sorry but olwm and tvtwm don t do it they place the title at that position and the window at a position below it the reason they place their outside corner at the location you requested is because that s what the icccm says they should do this becomes a problem when you want a program to be able to save its current configuration and restore is later currently my solution is xcreatewindow xsetwmproperties xmapwindow xflush xmovewindow this code will almost certainly break calling xmapwindow and then xflush does not guarantee that the window is visible and managed by the window manager even if this did work there isn t a reliable way to find out how much decoration the window manager placed around your window so you don t know how far to move it and what if the window manager refuses to move your window tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
comp.windows.x	re postscript on x terminal i have a problem when i m using postscript when i am working local on a sun sparcstation ipc the postscript works good but when i connect to the sun from a x terminal i just get error messages that the postscript cannot connect to the news display why doesn t postscript work on an x terminal because xterminals do not have a news server xterminals have speed by nature of their limited functionality once you add news and everything else you have a workstation there are workarounds i ve heard one involving a perl script what we are trying to do is replace programs that need news like pageview with programs that don t like ghostview maybe someone else can elaborate on the perl workaround i have no personal experience with it greg owen gowen forte cs tufts edu gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer and ta tufts university computer science dept all transfers are disclaimed by my host name and boss s address if you don t like this policy disconnect now
comp.windows.x	q colormaps with dialog shells i have an applicationshell which uses a colormap created with xcreatecolormap and uses all of the colors available for my bit display when i move the cursor over the window i get the technicolor effect which is fine basically my program works my problem question is when i popup a dialogshell to prompt the user for some input i want the xmndialogstyle to be set to xmdialog primary application modal the result is that if my cursor is over the dialogshell i get my colormap but if the cursor is over the applicationshell or any window other than the dialogshell i get the default colormap but i d like it so that if my cursor is over any window of my application i get my colormap any suggestions thanks david
comp.windows.x	looking for an r xserver for hp subject says it all anyone know where i can find one binaries are nice but source would do to thanks in advance rob banz banz umbc edu if we give people an alternative to microsoft it will have been a greater good steve jobs unixworld april yes bill we are your father ibm os presentation fose
comp.windows.x	wcl hi i have a problem when compiled wcl in sco odt cc c ox i i usr include xt getresl c xt getresl c xt getresl c error c xtconstraintbit undefined error code although i follow the instructions in file readme build to build wcl in sco platform this problem didn t resolve so i have some questions related to this matter does xtconstraintbit exist in sco odt does xtconstraintbit use in x r x r and what release does sco odt use x r or x r if not does someone know how to work around
comp.windows.x	xterm with status line and color i m looking for a version of xterm which handles color and vt style status lines can anyone out there help thanks
comp.windows.x	problem running aix info from a sun rlogin shell when i run our rs s info utility through a remote login shell rlogin from my sun sparc i can no longer type lower case in any of info s window prompt s i thought the prob may have been due to my sun window mgr openlook being incompatible with the aix motif application but i tried it under tvtwm also same result so this is presumably an x key definition problem between workstations but my system admins feign ignorance what do i need to do the be able to type lower case into this remote aix motif app from within my local openlook window manager wayne long oe internet wcl risc sps mot com william cannon drive west uucp cs texas edu oakhill risc wcl austin texas phone fax
comp.windows.x	re repost accelerators translations in article apr telesoft com trevor telesoft com trevor bourget ignite writes in sdennis aa cad slb com sdennis osf org writes i posted this a while ago and didn t receive one reply and now we have another bug report on the same subject can anybody help me out the problem is that motif uses xgrabkey to implement menu accelerators and these grabs are specific about which modifiers apply unfortunately the specification for xgrabkey doesn t allow anymodifier to be combined with other modifiers which is exactly what would be desired in this case ctrl any key q in ora vol in the section on accelerators it says for information on how to specify translation tables see vol this is so you know what to put for the xmnaccelerator resource if you go to vol it says likewise if a modifier is specified there is nothing to prohibit other modifiers from being present as well for example the translation shift key q quit will take effect even if the ctrl key is held down at the same time as the shift key and the q key this is true for accelerators and mnemonics which are implemented using event handlers instead of grabs it s not true for menu accelerators if you re a motif implementor i d suggest lobbying to get the xlib semantics changed to support the feature i described above otherwise change the documentation for menu accelerators to properly set the user s expectations because menu accelerators are not the same thing as translations is it possible to supply accelerator for a menu entry if you mean menu accelerator no it s not possible that s according to the definition of the xmnaccelerator resource in the xmlabel manual page keep in mind when answering this question that when using motif you can t use xtinstallaccelerators i can t think of a reason why not how can you ensure that accelerators work the same independent of case what i want is ctrl o and ctrl o to both be accelerators on one menu entry i find this thread on motif accelerators absoultly amazing if i were writing an interface to keyboard accelerators i would have one resource called accelerators that took a translation table period i would also implement it so that programmer never has to do any work to get the accelerators installed as soon as the end user specified one it would be active and automatically installed to get multiple accelerators on a single menu item i d do something like menuitem accelerators override n ctrl key m fire n shift key l fire n the accelerators would work exactly like translations and you would automatically see a ctrl m show up in your menuitem object why in the world is the motif stuff so complicated with so many different special cases depending on what type of widget you re dealing with there has to be some reason sorry for the political tone of this message tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes one advanage of mit shm is that if your images are large you don t end up growing the size of the server process to hold them correct most x servers use a version of malloc which will not return memory to the os ie the x server might free a pixmap but the heap does not shrink one disadvantage of the mit shm is that in its sample implementation there is no provision for elegantly cleaning up the shared memory segments if the client dies a sudden violent death e g kill you have to be mindful of cluttering up the system with zombie shared memory segments well part of the routines i mentioned do a dirty little trick to get around that problem first i create the shared memory segment attach the client attach the x server and then remove the segment if you read the man pages on removing of shared memory segments you will see that the segment only dies after all attachments are gone now if the client dies that s one attachment gone the os cleans up for you and since the x server notices the client has dies frees up it s resources including detaching from the segment there goes the last attachment no more shared memory segment terrible but it works regards richard gooch
comp.windows.x	xterm patches for alpha osf well after massaging the dec cf osf def can t remember the exact names from osf into my normal x r distribution everything compiles and links fine but xterm doesn t run warning representation size must match superclass s to override background warning translation table syntax error modifier or expected warning found while parsing p j p x error of failed request badcolor invalid colormap parameter major opcode of failed request x allocnamedcolor resource id in failed request x serial number of failed request current serial number in output stream other than this all the other core x stuff seems to be working ok any hints tips appreciated patches would be primo thanks jaye mathisen coe systems manager roberts hall dept of computer science montana state university bozeman mt osyjm cs montana edu
comp.windows.x	x gl widget translation problem i am writing a custom widget to support the display of graphics and imagery the user of the widget will be able to specify when creating it whether it is to operate in x or gl mode i have set up translations and actions to handle mouse button presses they work fine when the widget is in x mode in gl mode they only work when the widget my gl x widget is a child of a manager put another way the translations do not work when the widget is configured in gl mode and is a child of a shell does anyone know why this is happening thanks in advance bruce gendler bgendler csc com
comp.windows.x	text field in dialog widget doesn t get focus i am using the glx widget athena widgets on a mixed model application under dwm but when the dialog gets popped up its text entry field does not have focus aimilar code works perfectly if i use pure x no mixed model here is the relevant portion of the code int n arg wargs widget button popupshell dialog initialize toplevel here n xtsetarg wargs n xtnlabel foo n button xtcreatemanagedwidget foobtn commandwidgetclass toplevel wargs n popupshell xtcreatepopupshell pupshell overrideshellwidgetclass button null xtaddcallback popupshell xtncallback mypopup xtpointer popupshell n xtsetarg wargs n xtnvalue n dialog xtcreatemanagedwidget thedialog dialogwidgetclass popupshell wargs n void mypopup w popup shell call data widget w widget popup shell xtpointer call data xtpopup popup shell xtgrabexclusive a way i found to give focus to the text field is to move the application window around a little bit and place it right behind the popup any pointers would be greatly appreciated
comp.windows.x	correction on my last posting glx lack of cous on dialog widget on the code i sent please replace the line xtaddcallback popupshell xtncallback mypopup xtpointer popupshell by xtaddcallback button xtncallback mypopup xtpointer popupshell the rest and my question remains the same dan
comp.windows.x	re dell eisa video cards this belongs in comp windows x i unix i ve redirected followups in article c sshu cbi gator rn com larry gator rn com larry snyder writes does xfree support any eisa video cards under dell larry snyder larry gator rn com i know for a fact that the eisa version of the orchid prodesigner iis works however an eisa svga card is likely a waste of money when xfree comes out with support for accelerated chipsets isa eisa and vlb will all be supported the more important question is what chipsets are supported the bus is basically irrelevent as a compatibility issue david wexelblat dwex mtgzfs att com fax at t bell laboratories laurel ave f middletown nj xfree requests should be addressed to xfree physics su oz au love is like oxygen you get too much you get too high not enough and you re gonna die sweet love is like oxygen
comp.windows.x	re question regarding overlaying of graphics let s say i have two rectangles on the canvas see above one intersecting the other now i would like to delete one of the rectangles the way i do it is to create another gc wherein i use the gxxor logical function and simply redraw the rectangle using the newly created graphics context thus deleting it for all apparent purposes a problem with this approach is that at the points of intersection the pixel locations belonging to the other rectangle also become white which is something that should be avoided you could set up a bitmap with a mask in it clear the bitmap draw the rectangle to be deleted with gxor draw the one that is to stay with gxclear then gxxor the entire pixmap with the screen note that this is a pretty effective way of animation if you ever need to do that replace the gxclear with a gxxor joe hildebrand hildjj fuentez com software engineer fuentez systems concepts standard disclaimers apply
comp.windows.x	keysym database problems i am having problems with a motif application that when run on another machine with different x paths etc can t find the xkeysymdb file this causes a large warning output warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfactivate warning found while parsing key osfactivate managerparentactivate warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfcancel warning found while parsing key osfcancel managerparentcancel warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfselect warning found while parsing key osfselect managergadgetselect etc as the file is in a different location but xt seems to only look for it in the place where it is on the machine the app was compiled on is there any way to read the xkeysymdb manually with an x xt call so that additions to the xkeysymdb can be distributed with the application i have used trace to find out what was going on but i need a fix so that these translations in the application can be recognised tim tim liddelow for fork systems programmer centre of advanced technology in telecommunications my brain on a bad day citri melbourne australia internet tim kimba catt citri edu au phone fax
comp.windows.x	re mix gl with x xlib xt mwm in article scorpion dps co uk gerard dps co uk gerard o driscoll writes pyeatt texaco com writes there is a widget already defined for gl it is the glxmdraw motif or glxdraw athena widget it is similar to a xmdrawingarea except that it allows you to use gl calls to render into the window look at glxlink glxunlink glxgetconfig and glxwinset in the man pages where do i get hold of these widgets gerard o driscoll gerard odriscoll dps co uk du pont pixel systems ltd they come with every iris now nth also ships it with their latest version of nth portable gl i just got the update a couple of weeks ago i would assume that silicon graphics would license the source to you so that you can include it in your company s gl offering larry d pyeatt the views expressed here are not internet pyeatt texaco com those of my employer or of anyone voice that i know of with the possible exception of myself
comp.windows.x	re writing a motif widget in article c wapj dd ibmpcug co uk nicholas ibmpcug co uk nicholas young writes i need probably to write one or more new motif widgets on the hp ux platform do i need the motif private header files and source or can i make do with the public headers that are provided motif includes xt in this context yes you ll find it almost impossible without the source at this point it does depend on how ambitious you are and how concerned you are about compliance with the general interface and items like traversal one widget is a multi column list which lots of people have already written i am sure and would therefore be probably be a subclass of list rather than something simple like an xt class is this more difficult in principle not lines of code i m not sure what you re asking you could create something which is very much like a true multi column list by placing several lists within a geometry manager and putting that manager within an automatic scrolled window this wouldn t be good for very large lists but you might consider this as an alternative alternatively if anyone has a multi column list widget they could sell me this might save me from having to write one does it by any chance exist in motif already i do not yet have the spec motif does not have a multi column list in it have you looked at commercial sets there are also some pd widget sets one of these might have a multi column list you could port douglas s rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail cambridge center cambridge ma disclaimer i don t know if osf agrees with me let s vote on it amateur radio kc kj
comp.windows.x	numlock masking interference with meta compose extendchar my question is this is there a means of determining what the state of capslock and or numlock is alright ignore this i have delved a bit deeper xkeyevent and found what i was looking for ev state has a bunch of masks to check against lockmask is the one for capslock unfortunately it appears that the numlock mask varies from server to server how does one tell what mask is numlock and which are for meta mod mask mod mask mod mask mod mask mod mask eg sgi s vendor server has mod mask being numlock whereas solaris openwindows has mod mask for numlock is there an unambiguous means of determining numlock s mask at runtime for any given server sorry for the wasted bandwidth and my appalling ignorance thanks ralph
comp.windows.x	trying to find papers by rosenthal i have the march april version of the x journal open in front of me i ll be working on programming x clients this summer and since i don t have much experience with programming x i thought this issue might be helpful as it has a section on debugging and a section on the most common errors in programming x at the end of the errors section there are the following references for tutorials on x programming style they are rosenthal david a simple x client program proceedings of the winter usenix conference lemke d and rosenthal d visualizing x clients proceedings of the winter usenix conference does anyone know where i could find these in printed or preferably electronic form or can you suggest any net resources devoted to the introduction to programming x i ll be looking at the bookstore for books so i am really only asking about what i can find on the net thanks david simpson davesimp soda berkeley edu
comp.windows.x	re xt intrinsics slow popups cjhs minster york ac uk wrote help i am running some sample problems from o reilly volume xt intrisics programming manual chapter popup dialog boxes and so on in example page creating a pop up dialog box the application creates window with a button quit and press me the button press me pops up a dialog box the strange feature of this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the first time if i try to pop it up a nd time rd th time it is much slower has anyone any experience with these sample programs or why i get this behaviour fast response time for the first time but slow response time from nd time onwards anyone can give me some ideas on how to program popups so that each time they popup in reasonable fast response time thankyou shirley thanks to those who responded we were able to prevent this behaviour by two methods running twm rather than olwm keeping olwm but putting wmtimeout in the resources it has been suggested that the difficuty was something to do with the window manager positioning the popup window any guru who can analyse what is going on from this information please post and let us know thanks shirley
comp.windows.x	question on xon in x r hi folks say i m new to r and have one quick question in using xon xon machine name i notice that it always comes up with a very small window i m pretty sure its the default font my xterms all work normally is xon supposed to read your xresources for a font size xrdb q appears to show the right stuff i can use xon with arguments such as xterm fn x etc and everything is correct of course you could always do a simple script to do this but i have a feeling i m missing something simple here comments suggestions appreciated thanks in advance bob bshaw spdc ti com mm
comp.windows.x	re gui study cutsie little macintrash like icons that are an instant recipe for mousitis imho system is undoubtedly the worst gui i have used out of that riscos mswombles and x simply because it does not provide enough keyboard shortcuts windows i must confess i quite like cover your ears because you can actually use it without having to ever touch the mouse stuff delete the user rather than making things easier and there should always be the option to do it your way if you want to which is why i like the unix x combination so much it s so customizable hear hear i agree completely one thing i can t stand about the mac interface is its shear determination to force you to use the mouse what if your mouse breaks your whole system is down i like the mouse it is handy on some occassions such as cut and past and moving icons around etc but for most work the keyboard and hot keys are times faster than using the mouse sure it is a plus to be able to do something simple if you are an inexperienced user but how long is it before your are experienced a month two speaking of pcs at the moment i don t think it is too much to ask that window programmers provide not only a menu mouse interface but also look forward to those who would like to move on to hot keys and command line interfaces which usually allows you to do more in less time if you are experienced all of the above equally applies to windowing systems on unix especially since unix is at least more powerful than dos seth buffington u s s gab i seth cs unt edu seth gab unt edu unix operator
comp.windows.x	x terminal config file question question what is the exact entry parameter and syntax please in the x terminal configuration file loaded when the x terminal boots to add another system to the tcp ip access control list background i have two unix systems an at t b running x r and mit s x r and a sun ss without any x i want to have a window to the sun and the b on the ncd x terminal at the same time i can do this if i manually set the network parameter tcp ip access control list to off then login to my telnet session not great i ve tried to get xhost to work and failed either my syntax is wrong or the x r implementation is bogus i am trying to edit the ncd configuration file that is loaded when the ncd boots no matter what entry i add or edit the ncd still boots with the tcp ip access control list containing only the b my manuals are worthless so any help would be most appreciated thanks ann marie barden abarden afseo eglin af mil
comp.windows.x	x error of failed request badpixmap invalid pixmap parameter could someone please give a guess as to why this simple little program causes a badpixmap error on the fourth bizarre call to xtrelaizewidget here is the code int stoploop static void callback widget xtpointer xtpointer main xttoolkitinitialize xtappcontext app xtcreateapplicationcontext while int junk display dis xtopendisplay app null null null null junk null widget top xtappcreateshell null null applicationshellwidgetclass dis null widget box xtvacreatemanagedwidget x xmpushbuttonwidgetclass top xmnheight xmnwidth null xtaddcallback box xmnactivatecallback callback null xtrealizewidget top while stoploop xevent event xtappnextevent app event xtdispatchevent event stoploop xtreleasegc top xdefaultgcofscreen xtscreen top needed xtdestroywidget top xtclosedisplay dis static void callback widget xtpointer xtpointer stoploop the error i get yes the th time i try to show the box is x error of failed request badpixmap invalid pixmap parameter major opcode of failed request x creategc resource id in failed request xd d serial number of failed request current serial number in output stream please respond via email thanks very very much note i realize this program does nothing useful its an ultra trivialized version fo a real library routine david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder
comp.windows.x	re looking for david e smyth in article apr nynexst com zvi nynexst com zvi guter writes the author of wcl or the current care taker his is the only name i found in the dist tree i have tried to mail him at david smyth ap mchp sni de but the mail bounced back any help in finding him will be greatly appreciated try david ap uucp david ap ztivax siemens com xtian name christian mollard email c mollard frec bull fr phone bull fax address bull s a b p echirolles cedex france
comp.windows.x	virtual mwm hi netland i thought that i once read about the existance of a virtual mwm like vtwm on the usual ftp sites gatakeeper dec com export lcs mit edu i can t find any trace of this program could anybody give me a hint where to find this program or confirm deny the existance of this program regards stefan
comp.windows.x	installation problem with x r i am in the process of installing x r on my sun sparcstation and have run into a problem i imagine it has something to do with a missing screen driver or something along those lines but figured someone out there in internet land might be able to help i am installing it on a machine that already has openlook installed and would like to have both installed concurrently thus i set it up to compile to my usr x r directory i worked out all the kinks in getting it compiled with gcc so that it compiles without any warnings i need it installed for pex si so i set all those appropriate flags when i run it however i get a message along the lines of getting interface configuration operation not supported on socket sunopenframebuffer inappropriate ioctl for device fatal server error no screens found any ideas on how i can fix it please respond by e mail at the below address thanks in advance dan i do not want to be immortalized through my works i want to be immortalized through not dying woody allen dan kirkpatrick dept of electrical computer engineering dsk rice edu rice university uunet rice edu dsk uunet uu net houston tx
comp.windows.x	imake cpp problems on aix i am trying to build and use imake x r on an ibm rs running aix v i am having the following problems many of my imakefile s have contructs like this is a makefile at the start of lines to pass makefile comments thru the c preprocessor and into the makefile most of the c preprocessors that i have used will not treat such a as appearing at the start of the line thus the c preprocessor does not treat the hash symbol as the start of a directive however the ibm cpp strips the comment and treats the hash symbol as the start of a directive the cpp fails when it determines that this is not a known directive i have temporarily hacked my imake to handle this situation but would like to come up with a better fix several imakefiles use as a parameter to a macro when a particular use of the macro does not need a value for the parameter the aix cpp gives warnings about these situations but continues to work ok if you are familiar with these problems and have solutions i would appreciate information about on your solutions perhaps this is solved in a later version of imake that i have not reviewed also do you know of other cpp s that behave similarly since i do not have easy access to news a response to white billy po gis prc com would be appreciated
comp.windows.x	imake on dos and windows has anyone had experience porting imake to dos using a microsoft watcom or any other dos compiler since i do not have easy access to news a response to white billy po gis prc com would be appreciated
comp.windows.x	post script viewer hello recently i have been printing out a lot of files on school s laser printer and feeling guilty about it please help me by showing me where to get a post script viewer for x windows thank you for your help a student trying to enhence his cybernatic ability
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window in article r l g bub wsinfo win tue nl rcb wsinfo win tue nl richard verhoeven writes sorry but olwm and tvtwm don t do it they place the title at that position and the window at a position below it this becomes a problem when you want a program to be able to save its current configuration and restore is later currently my solution is xcreatewindow xsetwmproperties xmapwindow xflush xmovewindow it works with olwm but is less than elegant all this leaves me wondering if i m overlooking something obvious richard i know that the mwm has an resource to specify if positions are to be used for the border of a window or for the user window maybe other window managers have similar options another way to figure out the difference between the user window position and the window manager decoration window position is to subtract their positions you just have to use xquerytree and remember that the window manager decorations window is the parent of your window unfortunately you can only figure out the decoration width and height after the window has been mapped this way greeting tobias bading cs tu berlin de
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article apr nrao edu rgooch rp csiro au richard gooch writes remove the shared memory segment terrible but it works why is that terrible that s exactly the way our code has been doing it for two years now and is the way that temporary files in unix systems are managed most of the time open unlink burkhard neidecker lutz distributed multimedia group cec karlsruhe eerp portfolio manager software motion pictures berkom ii project multimedia base technology digital equipment corporation neidecker nestvx enet dec com
comp.windows.x	image plotting source code needed hi i m looking for source sample on how to create a window with an image in it actually a dim matrix of unsigned char any help will be appreciated
comp.windows.x	question on motif diaog shell widget under vuewm dear netters i have noticed something rather weared i think about creating a dialog shell widget while running hp vue s vuewm for some reason every time i create a dialog shell the foreground and backgroun d colors are different compared to my toplevel shell i am not doing anything special different does any body know anything about this problem how to fix it without hardcodin g the colors please respond to kamlesh salzo cary nc usa thanks kamlesh
comp.windows.x	x benchmarks we are in the process of evaluating x terminals this includes running xremote over a serial line i would like to run some x benchmarks to determine comparative performance has anyone written any such benchmarks or know of any useful programs on the net i heard of a program called xstone but i couldn t locate it using archie please reply to afielden mlsma att com as i don t get to read this newsgroup much thanks in advance for any help andrew fielden at t network systems uk tel information systems group sun support email afielden mlsma att com
comp.windows.x	hypercard for unix hi netlanders does anybody know if there is something like macintosh hypercard for any unix platform thanks in advance ron
comp.windows.x	re numlock masking interference with meta compose extendchar ralph seguin rps arbortext com wrote my question is this is there a means of determining what the state of capslock and or numlock is alright ignore this i have delved a bit deeper xkeyevent and found what i was looking for ev state has a bunch of masks to check against lockmask is the one for capslock unfortunately it appears that the numlock mask varies from server to server how does one tell what mask is numlock and which are for meta mod mask mod mask mod mask mod mask mod mask eg sgi s vendor server has mod mask being numlock whereas solaris openwindows has mod mask for numlock is there an unambiguous means of determining numlock s mask at runtime for any given server sorry for the wasted bandwidth and my appalling ignorance you ll have to check the keysym s on each of the keys for each modifier the one with numlock in its mapping is the modifier you want a bit ugly perhaps but i think its currently the only way to do this and it does have some precedent as keysyms are used to differentiate capslock from shiftlock for the lock modifier i don t know of an accepted strategy for handling ambiguous assignments either ie what if numlock is mapped for more then one modifier i suppose first found is as good as any x doesn t handle locking modifiers that well hope that helps dave lapp standard disclaimer etc
comp.windows.x	motif based graphing package i am in need of a motif based graphing package to integrate into a large software package under development for distribution to universities it can be either public domain or commercial although a commercial package can t have royalties required for binary only distribution we need d graphing capabilities at a minimum but d would be nice any info would be appreciated and i will summarize if there is interest thanks mitch mitchell s baltuch unidata program center mitch unidata ucar edu ucar po box boulder co
comp.windows.x	re postscript on x terminal i tried to e mail you but it bounced so hi there in article his uucp you write from sp henhj edit henrik balthazar hjort subject postscript on x terminal i have a problem when i m using postscript when i am working local on a sun sparcstaton ipc the postscript works good but when i connect to the sun from a x terminal i just get error messages that the postscript cannot connect to the news display why doesn t postscript work on an x terminal is there any way to make it work it might be that the x terminal doesn t support the postscript extensions to x product i use the dxpsview program on a decstation to view postscript files but when i moved to an ncd x terminal i couldn t use it any more so i ftp d and compiled ghostscript gnu software now we can view postscript files on our x terminals hope this helps grant henrik henrik hjort hjort grant totten programmer analyst trent university peterborough ontario gtotten trentu ca phone fax take everything in stride trample anyone who gets in your way
comp.windows.x	re hypercard for unix in article apr bernina ethz ch queloz bernina ethz ch ronald queloz writes hi netlanders does anybody know if there is something like macintosh hypercard for any unix platform thanks in advance ron try metacard a hypercard like programming environment on x chun hong
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window in article bading apr athene cs tu berlin de bading cs tu berlin de tobias doping bading writes i know that the mwm has an resource to specify if positions are to be used for the border of a window or for the user window maybe other window managers have similar options another way to figure out the difference between the user window position and the window manager decoration window position is to subtract their positions you just have to use xquerytree and remember that the window manager decorations window is the parent of your window unfortunately you can only figure out the decoration width and height after the window has been mapped this way another way would be to use getgeometry to find out where you are relative to the frame and translatecoordinates to find out where your window s upperleft corner really is ethan
comp.windows.x	re key definitions in emacs x in a prior article ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu andrew jaffe wrote hi i use emacs and i want to customize my keyboard better when i set up stuff in my emacs with a keymap and define keys i can only access certain of the keys on my x terminal s keyboard i can t get e g f home end pgup pgdn they all seem to have either the same or no keycode i have a feeling this can t be fixed in emacs itself but that i need to do some xmodmap stuff can someone help me unfortunately the key event handling is pretty much hardwired into emacs i ran into this problem a while back my solution was to change the source code so that all of these special keys generated character sequences which basically encoded the keysym and modifier state as escape sequences for example the sequence esc b would indicate that the home key was pressed with the shift key down you could also detect standard keys with odd modifiers such as shift return if anybody wants these changes they re welcome to them but you ll have to have the source available and be comfortable munging with it a bit basically you have to replace the keypress handling code in the source file x term c maybe if someone at osf is interested i can send them the tweaks but i imagine they ve got bigger fish to fry hopefully including the much talked about emacs v if there s sufficient interest i ll post the mods somewhere although this probably isn t the appropriate group for it notes this special code will only apply if you let emacs create its own x window if you run it in plain old tty mode which includes xterm windows then it s business as usual the patches i made were to version under sun os i also did this a while back under hp ux the patches are in a chunk of code between if sun endif but could easily be adapted for anything else mark lanzo kd qlz lanzo tekelec com xx
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm in a prior article naoumov physics unc edu sergei naoumov writes hey guys i work on many stations and would like this name and current logname to be in a title of xterm when it s open and a machine name only when it s closed in other words i want host and logname to appear as a title of opened xterm and host when xterm is closed how can i do it apologies if i m answering something already answered in the faq our news feed has been losing a lot of articles lately so i haven t seen the faq lately to check two ways when you start the xterm you can use command line options n icon name to set the icon label t window title to set the window title title window title equivalent to t window title you can use escape sequences to change things on the fly the basic escape sequence is esc p some arbitary text bel where esc and bel are the ascii escape and bell characters p is an ascii decimal digit or depending on whether you are trying to set the window or icon title or both and some arbitary text is your desired label string hence this command will set the window icon title echo your title goes here c to set just the icon title echo your title goes here c to set just the window title echo your title goes here c of course you may have to fiddle with exact syntax depending on how the echo command works on your system and what shell you are using i ve shown system v semantics under bourne or korn shells hint for sun os users use usr bin echo instead of bin echo or csh s built in echo otherwise you ll have to embed literal esc and bel characters in the string instead of using convenient octal sequences if you want your titlebar updated continously say to show your current directory hostname or somesuch then you ll have to see if you can coerce your shell into spitting out the appropriate escape sequences when it prompts for commands sometimes you can just put the appropriate escape sequence in the prompt string itself sometimes not mark lanzo kd qlz lanzo tekelec com xx
comp.windows.x	re how do i find my appcontext in a prior article masc ucsnews sdsu edu todd greene said is there an xt call to give me my application context i am fixing up an x motif program and am trying to use xtappaddtimeout whose first argument is the app context what call can i use to give me this value xtappcontext xtwidgettoapplicationcontext widget of course just using the app context returned from xtcreateapplicationcontext xtappinitialize etc is the best option unless that path is not available
comp.windows.x	help xdm solaris i recently read here that sun has a patch for xdm on solaris i was wondering if anyone could give me the patch number thanks in advance tracy tolley university of central florida technical support
comp.windows.x	re problem running aix info from a sun rlogin shell in r bcinn ei ome sps mot com wcl risc sps mot com wayne long writes when i run our rs s info utility through a remote login shell rlogin from my sun sparc i can no longer type lower case in any of info s window prompt s i thought the prob may have been due to my sun window mgr openlook being incompatible with the aix motif application but i tried it under tvtwm also same result so this is presumably an x key definition problem between workstations but my system admins feign ignorance what do i need to do the be able to type lower case into this remote aix motif app from within my local openlook window manager wayne long oe internet wcl risc sps mot com william cannon drive west uucp cs texas edu oakhill risc wcl austin texas phone fax i have had the exact same problem but have not figured out a solution i run a pc with linux free unix with x r and openwindows i would appreciate any solutions ewz internet ziegenfe moravian edu uucp rutgers lafcol batman ziegenfe
comp.windows.x	xfree need help hi i just got xfree running on my pc with consensys and encountered a few minor i hope probems the pc is hooked up to a lan where i want remote x applications to connect to my x server i believe the command to permit this is xhost when i m logged on my pc and type xhost i get the error message saying you must be on local machine to enable access what does this mean ain t i already on the local machine another problem i have is with the mouse movement i find that the mouse cursor moves extremely slow and choppy how can i make the mouse cursor move more accurately thank in advance any help is much appreciated please send replies to christy alex qc ca christy
comp.windows.x	summary xon and x r hi folks thanks to the ones that replied however my problem turned out to be very simple in my xresources i had a space after xterm font x removing this and xrdb fixed my problem also same symptom was that some of my users did not have the proper capitals for xterm font thanks again bob
comp.windows.x	x load on the network can someone point me in the direction of any papers not necessarily formally conducted studies discussing how much traffic x apps generate for the network particularly in comparison with curses bases apps over telnet also does an x server typically buffer up user keyboard input a line at a time can the x client control this asking for keystrokes immediately thanks in advance for any feedback bob kline phoenix systems inc bkline occs nlm nih gov voice
comp.windows.x	athena widgets where do i find the athena widgets that are needed for xtdm thanks in advance
comp.windows.x	subscribe subscribe min stella skku ac kr
comp.windows.x	re need shading program example in x in article a tgv com mahan tgv com patrick l mahan writes do anyone know about any shading program based on xlib in the public domain i need an example about how to allocate correct colormaps for the program appreciate the help i don t know if this might help but i ve just started playing with a program called povray persistance of vision raytracer that also displays its output via x windows it does a fairly good job of allocating the colormap on my psuedo color plane display i got the source from from a site in canda the person i retrieved them from was david buck dbuck ccs carleton ca i think the original post was searching for existing implementations of f i gouroud shading of triangles this is fairly complex to do with plain x simpler shading models are implemented already f i in x d ask archie where to get the latest version for gouroud a fast implementation will be possible utilizing some extension only either mit shm to do the shade in an image and fast update the window with it or pex opengl which should be able to shade themselves the portable vanilla x way would be to shade in a normal ximage and use xputimage what would be good enough to do static things as f i fractal landscapes or such stuff to speak about povray the x previewer that comes with the original source package is not that good especially in speed protocol friendlyness and icccm compliance have a look on x q my own preview code it is on pub gfx ray misc x q the readme states the points where it is better than xwindow c from povray o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	moolit and olit does anyone know the difference between moolit and olit does sun support moolit is moolit available on sparcstations i have recntly downloaded a copy of wkshtree written by eric wallengren of univel there are many widgets that are apparently available only to moolit but not olit is there a wkshtree program available under olit steved cfcl com
comp.windows.x	is authentication a planned feature for x r greetings my question is whether the upcoming release of x r will provide strong authentication between the x clients and server s if so will this feature be based on the kerberos authentication mechanism and if so will kerberos version be used please reply via email thanks andre andre s cosma rrc n bellcore security and andre bae bellcore com hoes lane data services piscataway nj
comp.windows.x	x on amiga i m new to the hardware and with a mandate to port some x based stereo video software does anyone know of or have experience with x on amiga machines if i can retain the x event handling it would ease my plight considerably and if i can keep all the motif bits so much the better gary lawrence murphy garym virtual rose utoronto ca university of toronto industrial eng dept fax taddle creek rd toronto ont m s a voice the true destination is always just here now
comp.windows.x	help os presentation mgr port to x i need to port several os pm applications to x openwindows or motif and desperately need any information on how to go about doing this short of a complete rewrite are there any tool to make porting easer any references any talent out there to hire to do this i will even take an os presentation mgr emulator for sun any and all replies except flames welcome brian colaric brian colaric dallas central sun com
comp.windows.x	re xt intrinsics slow popups bryan boreham bryan alex com wrote in article minster york ac uk cjhs minster york ac uk writes the application creates window with a button quit and press me the button press me pops up a dialog box the strange feature of this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the first time if i try to pop it up a nd time rd th time it is much slower the shell is waiting for the window manager to respond to its positioning request the window manager is not responding because it thinks the window is already in the right place exactly why the two components get into this sulk is unclear to me all information greatly received thanks for this clue and thanks to derek ho also for a pointer in the same direction one solution due to derek ho when the popup is popped up we setvalue its location which on repeat popups will be unchanged from the previous popup the slow response can be avoided by calling getvalue first and only using setvalue if the required location is different the problem can also be avoided by making a tiny alteration in the location of the popup so that the setvalue really does change the location of the popup we tried this just for a double check on the source of the problem the solutions we have tried successfully are now as follows use twm or mwm rather than olwm use olwm with resource wmtimeout only reset the location of the popup window if it is truely changed this is obviously working around some bug somewhere thanks chris ho stuart
comp.windows.x	overriding window manager focus processing i am working on an x window based application that needs to override some of the window manager focus processing i am using x r and motif currently although i will also be working with open look in the future what i need to do is under certain circumstances prevent the user from switching from one window of the application to another window let s say for example that window a is on top of window b in the window hierarchy normally if the user clicks the mouse in window b it will be brought to the top of the window hierarchy and placed on top of window a under certain circumstances if the user clicks the mouse in window b i need to beep and prevent window b from being raised on top of window a from the research and testing i ve done so far it appears that this window ordering is handled by the window manager in this case motif i haven t found any way to override this default processing through standard x window functions i can tell when this switching occurs through focus change and mapping notify events but i can t find any way to tell motif not to make the switch the temporary solution i ve currently come up with is very kludgy but it partially works when i detect such a window switch in those cases when the switch is not allowed i manually force the formerly top window back on top with an xraisewindow call and beep with the xbell function this provides the necessary functionality but looks ugly when the windows switch places twice does anyone know how i can tell motif or preferably any window manager when i don t want the window order switch to actually take place respond either by e mail or posting to this newsgroup cheers randall randall severy uunet uunet ge severy ge information services internet ge severy uunet uu net n washington st mc a genie rsevery rockville md usa phone
comp.windows.x	re xt intrinsics slow popups in article minster york ac uk cjhs minster york ac uk writes cjhs minster york ac uk wrote help i am running some sample problems from o reilly volume xt intrisics programming manual chapter popup dialog boxes and so on in example page creating a pop up dialog box the application creates window with a button quit and press me the button press me pops up a dialog box the strange feature of this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the first time if i try to pop it up a nd time rd th time it is much slower has anyone any experience with these sample programs or why i get this behaviour fast response time for the first time but slow response time from nd time onwards anyone can give me some ideas on how to program popups so that each time they popup in reasonable fast response time thankyou shirley thanks to those who responded we were able to prevent this behaviour by two methods running twm rather than olwm keeping olwm but putting wmtimeout in the resources it has been suggested that the difficuty was something to do with the window manager positioning the popup window any guru who can analyse what is going on from this information please post and let us know thanks shirley i ran in to this problem i while ago and from what i remember you should use xttranslatecoordinates etc after realizing the main widget to calculate the location of the popup then use something like xtvasetvalues on the popup widgets before ever using them calling setvalues repeatedly e g every time something pops up seems to be what slows you down i never delved deep enough to figure out exactly why though jeremy payne uiuc neuroscience program college of medicine jrpayne uiuc edu
comp.windows.x	looking for x window server frequency of operations data hello i m currently designing the architecture of a chip which is intended to help speed up common operations on a windowing system such as x a friend and i are designing the chip as the final course project for an advanced computer architecture course taught by dr fred brooks at unc chapel hill while we feel that we ve got a pretty solid design currently we d really like to get ahold of some frequency data from an x windows server so that we can make the most effective use of our bit budget unfortunately i ve been unable to find anything of this sort in the various x faqs or x manuals that i ve seen does anyone have some type of frequency data like how many copy rectangle operations vs draw lines and things of that sort or barring that a program that records requests to the server into a logfile that i can munge on myself any and all help would be very appreciated many thanks mark mark a deloura deloura cs unc edu u of north carolina chapel hill
comp.windows.x	re q colormaps with dialog shells dyoung media mit edu david young writes i have an applicationshell which uses a colormap created with xcreatecolormap and uses all of the colors available for my bit display when i popup a dialogshell to prompt the user for some input i want the xmndialogstyle to be set to xmdialog primary application modal the result is that if my cursor is over the dialogshell i get my colormap but if the cursor is over the applicationshell or any window other than the dialogshell i get the default colormap but i d like it so that if my cursor is over any window of my application i get my colormap i think this is correct behavior remember the default colormapfocuspolicy is keyboard meaning the cmap focus follows the keyboard focus since the dialog is modal mwm won t allow keyboard focus onto your main shell and so it won t allow cmap focus either since it sounds as though you have keyboardfocuspolicy pointer i suggest you set colormapfocuspolicy pointer also that way the cmap focus won t slavishly follow keyboard focus but will beat its own path if you have keyboardfocuspolicy explicit you can set cmap focus explicit also but you then need a binding to f focus color probably on mb david brooks dbrooks osf org open software foundation uunet osf org dbrooks showres soote my foote
comp.windows.x	x toolkits i am considering making a reasonably large application for free distribution probably copylefted i am going to use x now i m bewildered by the huge number of standards that open systems has created i ve lived in a fairly tookit sheltered environment most of the tools here were produced with the athena widget set or x intrinsics or xw in my humble opinion they look like crap i don t know however if this is a characteristic of the tookits or just poor aestetic taste in the programmers i would like my app to look a little more sculptured like mwm i understand however that mwm isn t free like the other tookits i am getting linux so i will have interviews but i don t know how it will look i get the impression andrew is from the fsf but i don t know what it looks like either if you can help explain this toolkit mess to me i would be much obliged which are free which are the best which are portable which looks nice which is not a resource hog also if you happen to know which are available on linux and or sun that would be a big help too thanks in advance
comp.windows.x	problems with color xterm we have recently obtained a copy of color xterm from export lcs mit edu after seeing it mentioned in a previous article on compilation it reports the following undefined symbols get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass but still runs when sending escape sequences to set the colour any colour comes out as black text on a black background any ideas has anyone used this program in colour successfully can anyone point me to any other colour terminal emulators we are running openwindows on sun sparcs running sunos advathanksnce ben kelley ben thor dbsm oz au
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm in article apr gecko uucp lanzo tekelec com mark lanzo writes hint for sun os users use usr bin echo instead of bin echo or csh s built in echo otherwise you ll have to embed literal esc and bel characters in the string instead of using convenient octal sequences bad idea using usr bin echo is slower than the built in echo this is what i do it does execute hostname once per shell window and does read in one extra file but manipluating the titles does not require executing extra programs oh yes it does execute some programs once per each system but it stores them in a file for the next time if hostname then setenv hostname hostname endif figure how how to generate escape bell and echo commands without a a line terminator i may have done this before if so the variable e is set have i executed this script before on this system if e then echo already set the echo variables dev tty else if f echo hostname then source echo hostname else if echo n wc l then echo built in echo is bsd dev tty then berkeley style echo echo set ech echo n echo hostname echo set e echo a tr a echo hostname echo set b echo a tr a echo hostname echo set n echo hostname source echo hostname else echo built in echo is sysv dev tty echo set ech echo echo hostname echo set e echo hostname echo set b echo hostname echo set n c echo hostname source echo hostname endif are we using shelltool cmdtool or xterm duplicate these aliases here to avoid problems if term sun then sun aliases alias header ech e l e n alias iheader ech e l e n else if term xterm then alias header ech e b n alias iheader ech e b n endif bruce barnett barnett crd ge com uunet crdgw barnett
comp.windows.x	xrn xarchie for hp s hi i need xrn and xarchie for the hp s version os either in the source form or preferably in executable form please suggest where i can find this send e mail to rao cse uta edu thanks in advance rao ssc
comp.windows.x	pulldown menu periodically hangs application on openwindows has anyone found a fix for the following problem client software sunos x r server hardware sun ipc server software sunos open windows w patch a motif application will periodically hang when run against the openwindows server xnews the pulldown is displayed but then no button actions have any effect sometimes pressing return will unstick the application but not usually it looks like the pulldown is grabbing the focus and never letting go other windows on the display continue to get updated so the server isn t hanging if i log in from another terminal and kill the motif application then everything gets back to normal the same application when run against other x servers including mit x r xsun decwindows tektronix x terminal has no problems this is obviously a openwindows problem but i need a work around since most of our customers are openwindows users i have tried the following things installing the latest version of the openwindows server patch using mwm version instead of olwm applying the patch specified in the motif faq question this had the effect of disabling the point and click method of menu interaction as opposed to the click and drag method and screwing up the menu mnemonics keys it did seem to help but i was still able to get the application to hang repeat by this is an intermittent problem so you ll have to try several times click and release on a menu heading pulldown menu will pop up click and release on a menu item repeat until application hangs any help would be appreciated thanks in advance skip koppenhaver skip eco twg com
comp.windows.x	screen problem in unix xwindows solaris experiment from a sun openwindows xterm window log into a solaris x machine using rlogin now do an ls and get the first character of each line display in the last column of the display with the rest of the line wrapped to the next line of the display log out and the condition persists check stty all try reset with no effect use telnet instead of rlogin and it doesn t occur try it from a unix console and it doesn t occur what s causing this can it be avoided how can the terminal characteristics be reset please send replies to shenk math gatech edu shonkwiler r w georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs seismo ut ngp gatech prism ma rs arpa ma rs prism gatech edu
comp.windows.x	re internationalized menus icon labels i have a problem with icon pixmap my application has to run under openwindow and motif i wrote my program in motif with pixmap and icons it runs fine under motif motif window manager and x r mwm but the icon pixmap does not show up under openwin olwm and x r olwm has anybody got into this kind of problem need a clue an example which works in both x r motif and openwindow will be great jigang yang jigang dale ssc gov jyang sscvx bitnet beckleymeade ave ms tel dallas tx fax
comp.windows.x	icon pixmap problem i have a problem with icon pixmap my application has to run under openwindow and motif i wrote my program in motif with pixmap and icons it runs fine under motif motif window manager and x r mwm but the icon pixmap does not show up under openwin olwm and x r olwm has anybody got into this kind of problem need a clue an example which works in both x r motif and openwindow will be great jigang yang jigang dale ssc gov jyang sscvx bitnet beckleymeade ave ms tel dallas tx fax
comp.windows.x	re x toolkits excerpts from netnews comp windows x apr x toolkits paul prescod undergrad m i am getting linux so i will have interviews but i don t know how it will look i get the impression andrew is from the fsf but i don t know what it looks like either if you re on the internet and your site isn t sheltered from external tcp ip traffic you can use the remote andrew demo to see what the andrew toolkit looks like remote andrew demo service this network service allows you to run andrew toolkit applications without the overhead of obtaining or compiling the andrew software you need a host machine on the internet and you need to be running the x window system a simple finger command will allow you to experience atk applications firsthand you ll be able to compose multimedia documents navigate through the interactive andrew tour and use the andrew message system to browse through cmu s three thousand bulletin boards and newsgroups to use the remote andrew demo service simply run the following command on your machine finger help atk itc cmu edu the service will give you further instructions gary keim andrew consortium
comp.windows.x	re gui study in article apr mercury unt edu seth ponder csci unt edu seth buffington writes cutsie little macintrash like icons that are an instant recipe for mousitis imho system is undoubtedly the worst gui i have used out of that riscos mswombles and x simply because it does not provide enough keyboard shortcuts windows i must confess i quite like cover your ears because you can actually use it without having to ever touch the mouse stuff delete the user rather than making things easier and there should always be the option to do it your way if you want to which is why i like the unix x combination so much it s so customizable hear hear i agree completely one thing i can t stand about the mac interface is its shear determination to force you to use the mouse what if your mouse breaks your whole system is down i like the mouse it is handy on some occassions such as cut and past and moving icons around etc but for most work the keyboard and hot keys are times faster than using the mouse sure it is a plus to be able to do something simple if you are an inexperienced user but how long is it before your are experienced a month two speaking of pcs at the moment i don t think it is too much to ask that window programmers provide not only a menu mouse interface but also look forward to those who would like to move on to hot keys and command line interfaces which usually allows you to do more in less time if you are experienced all of the above equally applies to windowing systems on unix especially since unix is at least more powerful than dos and at least more user unfriendly as well
comp.windows.x	re x on amiga in article yd ie utoronto ca garym ie utoronto ca gary murphy writes i m new to the hardware and with a mandate to port some x based stereo video software does anyone know of or have experience with x on amiga machines if i can retain the x event handling it would ease my plight considerably and if i can keep all the motif bits so much the better there is x for the amiga but it ll cost you gfxbase inc owned by dale luck one of the original amiga architects sells x for the amiga there are many options available including motif call em and get the scoop gfxbase inc ellwell drive phone milpitas ca fax i ve got no connection with them other than being a satisfied customer joe hartley jh cadre com whenever you find that you are on the cadre technologies side of the majority it is time to reform m twain richmond st providence ri overman st class the kilgore trout memorial clench x of the church of the subgenius
comp.windows.x	how to make simplest possible composite widget not being an xt programmer by any stretch of the imagination this is driving me crazy and it s probably really simple to do i need to make a composite widget that does nothing at all but is merely a placeholder in a widget instance heirarchy allowing me an additional resource name level to illustrate i have an application with the following widget heirarchy shell widget application widghet i want the following shell widget intermediate widget application widget where the intermediate widget has a name but gets all its other properties and propagates down new values from the shell widget i assume there s a simple way to do this but i can t find an example and the documentation i have is rather vague about implementing composite widgets please respond via email any help will be very much appreciated jim frost jimf centerline com
comp.windows.x	re x toolkits libxaw d the d athena widget set will greatly improve the sculptured look in linux with its shared jump table libs you don t even have to recompile or relink you merely have to ln sf lib libxaw d so lib libxaw so thomas
comp.windows.x	file formats hi folks can anyone give me some information the location of some information or some reference material for the following file formats wiff mo dca ioca pcx if this is not quite the appropriate place to ask such questions please let me know a more appropriate one and accept my apologies in advance thanks for your help rich rollman dogleg systems inc
comp.windows.x	changing colors on a label help i have a togglebutton widget yes widget and i have a routine which changes the color of the foreground and background of the label well the background changes alright but the label text does not redraw itself i am guessing that i have to force it to redraw with an xexposeevent sent to it via xsendevent is this the best way to get the text up again i can t seeem to get xsendevent to work right if this is a good approach might anyone have an example lying around to show me how to do this i ve rtfm all evening and did not find a decent example ps i keep getting segmentation faults in xsendevent tho all the values are as expected thanks in advance stephen m dahmen
comp.windows.x	color xterm i m look for current patches for color xterm for x r pl ro higher could someone please tell me where to get them for e mail them to me thanks egan f ford egan phony cc utah edu hellgate utah edu
comp.windows.x	re x toolkits in article c y wj ze undergrad math uwaterloo ca papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod writes i am considering making a reasonably large application for free distribution probably copylefted i am going to use x now i m the following packages meet your criteria in that they are pd and present an aesthetically pleasant graphical interface to the users if you can use bsd there is xview openlook there is interviews which looks a little like motif there is gopath a very nice c toolkit for athena widgets and motif which is simpler and better than interviews and you will enjoy technical support from bull via e mail it has a nice draw program it uses motif which can be used to create graphical front end to programs the data format is called streams which you can feed to your programs i ported gopath on an internet machine which is gone but if you use gcc with minimal effort gopath can be ported to bsd last but not least gopath interfaces to toolkits via a driver module they have an ms windows driver module for instance also many have written extensions to tk tcl thus allowing powerful applications for instance tcl nm has snmp extensions for tk tcl with ease i can now combine snmp network operations with graphs photo widget graphical interface file operations database operations etc the author of tcl nm mail me a simple network management application which was about lines long it displayed various environmental parameters from a router i wrote a simple strip chart script for displaying real time ip received packets seconds hope this helps amancio hasty this message brought to you by the letters x and s and the number amancio hasty home ftp site depository of all my work e mail hasty netcom com sunvis rtpnc epa gov pub bsd incoming
comp.windows.x	re screen problem in unix xwindows solaris shonkwiler r w ma rs prism gatech edu wrote experiment from a sun openwindows xterm window log into a solaris x machine using rlogin now do an ls and get the first character of each line display in the last column of the display with the rest of the line wrapped to the next line of the display log out and the condition persists check stty all try reset with no effect the condition happens when the tab is not set to spaces set and then check out suresh sivaprakasam department of computer science suny buffalo amherst ny internet sivap s cs buffalo edu bitnet sivap s sunybcs bitnet
comp.windows.x	re xdm decnet while i cannot answer questions about running xdm over a decnet i can say that the following defines must be added to the site def before building r before any x clients will work over a decnet from site def define connectionflags dtcpconn dunixconn ddnetconn define extralibraries ldnet hoping this helps george the opinions expressed are those of the author and in no way represent the opinions of the cuny graduate school its agencies or personnel mcc timessqr gc cuny edu cmcgc cunyvm bitnet the opinions expressed are those of the author and in no way represent the opinions of the cuny graduate school its agencies or personnel mcc timessqr gc cuny edu cmcgc cunyvm bitnet
comp.windows.x	x server for nt has anybody generated an x server for windows nt if so are you willing to share your config file and other tricks necessary to make it work thanks for any information bill steer westinghouse
comp.windows.x	now available xvertext now available xvertext summary xvertext provides you with four functions to draw strings at any angle in an x window previous versions were limited to vertical text rotation is still achieved using ximages but the notion of rotating a whole font first has been dropped what s new i ve added a cache which keeps a copy of previously rotated strings thus speeding up redraws where can i get it comp sources x soon export lcs mit edu contrib xvertext shar z now alan richardson you don t have to be school of maths physical sciences old to be wise univ of sussex brighton bn qh england judas priest uk mppa uk ac sussex syma elsewhere mppa syma sussex ac uk
comp.windows.x	xcursor xcursor version is now on export as xcursor tar z i ve added a new option to determine if a requested cursor size is ok of course your server may lie richard neitzel thor thor atd ucar edu torren med sitt skjegg national center for atmospheric research lokkar borni under sole vegg box boulder co gjo i med sitt shinn jagar borni inn
comp.windows.x	bitplaned non chunky pixel cfb is there a pd version of cfb or other pd server stuff which has a colour frame buffer implementation which works in bitplaned mode i e where the screen memory is grouped so that bit of every pixel is here bit is there etc the only such beast i know if at the moment is the gfxbase server for the commodore amiga and it is commercial i don t know if they wrote their own cfb but i suspect they did please respond by email as i don t read this group many thanks dave david crooke department of computer science university of edinburgh janet dcc ed dcs internet dcc dcs ed ac uk ip talk dcc work jcmb rm king s bldgs w mains rd edinburgh eh jz home fl woodburn terr m side edinburgh eh st tel
comp.windows.x	xwd segmentation fault i was planning to use the following pipe to move some display data to a system that has a color hardcopy unit xwd xwud display hostname i had tested it with some simple windows like the openwindows file manager and it worked fine but when i tried it with a more complex larger image the xwd part blew up with a segmentation fault i tried it without the pipe by redirecting xwd s output to a file and then used the file as input to xwud and got the same error from xwud if i had to guess it seems like it s running out of memory but this happened on a sparc with megs meg swap space and only one user with minimal activity the file was about mb this verion of xwd xwud was supplied with the sun openwindows distribution which i believe corresponds to x r any ideas thanks in advance dave humes johns hopkins university applied physics laboratory humesdg aplcomm jhuapl edu
comp.windows.x	announcing tcpview a motif based tcp ip protocol analyzer tcpview is the result of several problems we had at uw we have several network general sniffers which are heavily used to help debug problems on several hundred subnets these are good tools but they are heavy hard to find when you need one limited in their software expandibility difficult to use to upload data for analysis cannot be remotely operated and cannot resolve names with dns requiring much manual manipulation of the name table we also sometimes use tcpdump but we found it too difficult for most people did not have enough information for many protocols could not be used interactively could not handle tcp streams and could not read sniffer files however tcpdump did do a reasonable job of decoding a large number of protocols and could be easily modified tcpview is an attempt to resolve these problems by adding a motif interface to tcpdump and expanding its features tcpview has been tested on a decstation and sun under ultrix and sunos respectively it should work on the same systems as tcpdump it compiles with cc and gcc on the dec and sun to build tcpview you will need motif or better the following files are available for anonymous ftp from ftp cac washington edu in pub networking tcpview tar z tcpview and tcpdump source code tcpview sun tar z sun binaries tcpview dec tar z dec mips ultrix binaries what tcpview adds to tcpdump easier interface enhanced protocol decoding hex display of frame capture based on time number of frames or user interrupt can show ethernet addresses with manufacturer s name ethernet address host table can easily follow a stream highlighting out of order frames can send tcp data to an external file or filter for additional processing changes to tcpdump new features now reads and writes network general sniffer files when used with r the file type will be automatically detected can now read in and use an snmp mib file the hex format has been changed new time options have been added options were added to allow viewing and processing of the data in tcp packets bugs were fixed in the relative tcp sequence numbers s flag new flags r read sniffer file not usually needed except for reading from stdin ttt prints delta times tttt prints times relative to the first frame w write a sniffer save file use with w x print frame minus link level header in hexdump format sample output jeff cac washington edu nic funet fi ftp s win a c c c f e p d b a d j e p n x print tcp data in hexdump format used with z z write tcp data to stdout use with t to eliminate timestamp z write frames and tcp data to stdout martin m hunt martinh cac washington edu networks distributed computing university of washington martin hunt martinh cac washington edu networks and distributed computing university of washington
comp.windows.x	how to see characterset from wchar t we developed a toolkit running on the x window system the toolkit copes with any languages based on x r s i n facility as you know there are kinds of i n implementation from mit s x r release xsi and ximp our original implementation of the toolkit uses xsi our toolkit manages each character s size based on our own font management system in order to do that the wchar t typed character strings must be decomposed to character sets this means that if one wchar t type compound string with ascii and kanji mixed for example is given each element of the wchar t array must be checked its corresponding character set based on a bit layout and application environment s locale in this case if the locale is japanese each wchar t character will be classified either to iso jisx or so we need a function to do this the function must check how many characters from the top are the same character set and what the character set is we could not find any public x r function to do that and inevitably used xsi s internal functions to construct that function the following is the source code of that function decomposecharacterset i n h this may look like c code but it is really c id i n h v iima exp iima ifndef i n h define i n h include x xlib h extern int decomposecharacterset const wchar t wc str in int wc len in char buf out int buflen in out int scanned len out char charset out extern xmstring wchartoxmstring const wchar t wc str extern xmstringcharset charsetofwchar const wchar t wc endif i n h i n cc id i n cc v iima exp include stdlib h include x xlibint h include xm xm h include i n h extern c include x wchar h define xwcdecomposeglyphcharset xxx xwcdecomposeglyphcharset define xmbfscs xxx xmbfscs define xmbctidtocsid xxx xmbctidtocsid include xlocaleint h undef xwcdecomposeglyphcharset undef xmbfscs undef xmbctidtocsid extern int xwcdecomposeglyphcharset xlocale const wchar t int char int int int extern charset xmbfscs xlocale csid extern csid xmbctidtocsid xlocale csid int decomposecharacterset const wchar t wc str in int wc len in char buf out int buf len in out int scanned len out char charset out xlocale xlocale xfallbackconvert int ctid int status charset xcharset status xwcdecomposeglyphcharset xlocale wc str wc len buf buf len scanned len ctid if status success xcharset xmbfscs xlocale xmbctidtocsid xlocale ctid charset xcharset xcharset cs name null else charset null return status an included file above xlocaleint h is also xsi internal and we copied the file to the toolkit directory and compiled a serious issue occured when we tried to compile a toolkit application on our hp machine with its os version of hp ux when we tried to link an application based on our toolkit link errors occured saying that the following functions are missing xmbctidtocsid code xmbfscs code xwcdecomposeglyphcharset code xfallbackconvert code we had used mit release version of x r and its xsi implementation until hp up and ran applications successfully one of the reasons to use xsi was that because hp did not release hp s x r until the os and we had no way to know how hp s r would be implemented we had hoped xsi s popularity and used its internal functions the hp s linker complains that there are no xsi internal functions implemented we observe from hp s libx a they used some ximp implementation but we are not sure if they used mit s vanilla ximp version or their own version of ximp and therefore finding just counter part functions in mit s ximp for xsi does not seem to lead us a solution my question and goal is to know how we can construct a function like decomposecharacterset listed above is there any function to check character set of each element of wchar t type strings depending on locales if it is a public function that is perfect but even if it is not we want to use any internal functions in hp s x r as we did for mit s r in order to render a wchar t type string there must be some machinery to judge character sets and that is how the proper fonts are selected for the string we have no way to find out that without any hp s x r source files we want to know how we can use that for our goal any help or comments would be highly appreciated i also appreciate if anyone tell me about ximp treating around this area even if it is not hp s implementation thank you takeshi inoue inoue crd yokogawa co jp yokogawa electric corporation open systems laboratory
comp.windows.x	re looking for a filemanager under x r in article apr atlastele com brians atlastele com brian sheets writes does anyone have a file manager that runs under unix x r xdtm is working looking at as is ftptool there really isn t anything of any quality that i ve seen though and i m seriously considering writing one on my own mike hopper acs virginia edu i will not raise taxes on the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	installing mit x r on apollo can any apollo gurus out there let me know of their experiences building mit x r with or without gcc in particular is there anything i should watch out for thanks in advance tim tim liddelow for fork systems programmer centre of advanced technology in telecommunications my brain on a bad day citri melbourne australia internet tim kimba catt citri edu au phone fax
comp.windows.x	change default visual my hp workstation uses pseudocolor id x colors as the default visual how can i start x with different visual as default
comp.windows.x	x bitmap postscript hey folks on the course to develope a x window application we encountered a problem how could i transform a x window bitmap into a postscript files is there any library routines or source code i can call to do the job thank you in advance p s email reply please i seldom read this newsgroup
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window in article c xxq m cs columbia edu ethan cs columbia edu ethan solomita writes in article bading apr athene cs tu berlin de bading cs tu berlin de tobias doping bading writes i know that the mwm has an resource to specify if positions are to be used for the border of a window or for the user window maybe other window managers have similar options another way to figure out the difference between the user window position and the window manager decoration window position is to subtract their positions you just have to use xquerytree and remember that the window manager decorations window is the parent of your window unfortunately you can only figure out the decoration width and height after the window has been mapped this way another way would be to use getgeometry to find out where you are relative to the frame and translatecoordinates to find out where your window s upperleft corner really is as i ve said before there s no reliable way to find out the size of the window manager decoration if your window has been reparented you can t assume that the window you re parented to is the window that holds all of the window manager decoration there may be several layers of windows doing multiple xquerytree s until you get to the root will work in most cases but there s no guarantee that the outside decoration window is parented to the root window of the display tvtwm tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
comp.windows.x	real time data display tool hi i m looking for a x windows tool that can display data in a d plot in real time with a couple different signals anybody know of such a gem please email me as i do not read this group often thanks much eric slimko theslim caen engin umich edu
comp.windows.x	slider position of vertical scrollbars i need help positioning the slider of a list widget s horizontal scrollbar i am displaying the full path of a selected file in a list widget the horizontal s slider defaults to the left side of the list widget however i need the slider on the right side this is so the user can see the file name they selected i know it s possible because when files are displayed in a file selection dialog box the slider is on the right side thanking any and all who can help in advance rodney f clay clay cs scarolina edu
comp.windows.x	xrn xarchie for hp asap hi i need xrn and xarchie for the hp s version os either in the source form or preferably in executable form please suggest where i can find this send e mail to rao cse uta edu thanks in advance rao ssc
comp.windows.x	re asynchronous x windows in ellis nova ellis nova gmi edu r stewart ellis writes is there anyway to use x windows over an async line clearly you could use x it is x window no it isn t it is the x window system or x or x or any of a number of other designations accepted by the x consortium in fact doing man x on pretty much any x machine will tell you the x consortium requests that the following names be used when referring to this software x x window system x version x window system version x there is no such thing as x windows or x window despite the repeated misuse of the forms by the trade rags this probably tells you something about how much to trust the trade rags if they can t even get the name of the window system right why should one trust anything else they have to say with regard to dialup x implementations there are several you can buy serial x terminals from a couple of companies including both graphon and ncd in fact i m composing this from an ncd running x over serial lines across kbaud connection ncd also sells a software only package that provides xremote which is ncd s implementation of serial x for pc s there may be other such software packages available x r is supposed to include a standardized compression scheme for running x over low speed connections it s called low bandwidth x lbx and is based on improved versions of the techniques used in ncd s xremote it seems likely that once lbx is released as a consortium standard there will be several vendors willing to supply implementations for various sorts of hardware followups directed to comp windows x matt landau waiting for a flash of enlightenment matt centerline com in all this blood and thunder
comp.windows.x	re xsun not running on sparcclassic in article r th inndtp tom rz uni passau de rank winf uni passau de christian rank writes i ve installed x r with patches for solaris on our sparcstation lx sparcclassic pool on the lx x r runs fine but on the classics after giving the command startx xsun prints the following messages warning cg mmap can t map dummy space mapping cg c no such device or address and exits does anybody know how to fix this problem i m just guessing here but i d guess that x r expects the cg to have x resolution and the version of the cg in the sparcclassic is x disclaimer i do not represent sunsoft inc sun microsystems inc etc etc brian herzog sunsoft herzog eng sun com sun eng herzog
comp.windows.x	tektronix i remember seeing something in the x distribution mentioning support for a tektronix terminal in an x server is this accurate mike hopper acs virginia edu i will not raise taxes on the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	re tvtwm xsetroot x r and sparc keyboard barr pop psu edu david barr writes did you install the sunkbd patch it s in the contrib directory on export all the keys on my keyboard send events properly except the following the end pageup pagedown on the key cluster aren t recognized even the compose key works though i can t seem to get the composed characters in an xterm to get passed anyone have a fix for the last two fix the table in x r mit server ddx sun or use xmodmap put stty pass setenv lc ctype iso setenv lesscharset latin in your login the first prevents the stripping of bit the second sets the locale the third makes less show the character instead of the octal representation rj robert joop rj rainbow in berlin fokus gmd cs tu berlin de s joop ou fokus ou berlin p gmd a dbp c de
comp.windows.x	re x window for pc briefly starnet communications has four pc x server packages micro x lite includes integrated tcp ip runs in kb no arcs micro x enlite includes integrated tcp ip runs under dos shape extension interface to novell tcp ip micro x dos ea in a pack includes integrated tcp ip runs under dos shape extension interface to novell tcp ip ftp s pc tcp pc nfs micro x win ea in a pack includes lanera tcpopen tcp ip stack utilities interface to ftp s pc tcp sun s pc nfs winsock for more information contact starnet communications fax lawrence expressway voice santa clara ca e mail microx starnet com
comp.windows.x	how to get bit color with xview frames hi i am using xview on a sparc ipx under openwindows along with a xvideo board from parallax which enables me to use bit color i am having some problems utilizing the bit color and would greatly appreciate any help in this matter i use xview to create a frame and then create a canvas pane inside which i use to display live video my video input is bit color the problem is that my top level frame created as frame frame xv create null frame null seems to have a depth of which is propagated to my canvas i would like to know how i can set the depth of the frame to be bits i tried using the following xlib code xvisualinfo visual info int depth colormap colormap xsetwindowattributes attribs unsigned long valuemask window win xv opaque frame win xv get frame xv xid xmatchvisualinfo display screen depth truecolor visual info so far so good colormap xcreatecolormap display win visual info allocnone it dies here with a badmatch error attribs colormap colormap valuemask cwcolormap xchangewindowattributes display w valuemask attribs xsetwindowcolormap display win colormap am i using a completely wrong approach here is it possible to set the depth and colormap for a window created by xview what am i doing wrong thanks in advance for any help that i can get i would prefer a response via email although a post on the newsgroup is also okay thanks again alok alok mathur computer science engg case western reserve univ cleveland oh fairchild road cleveland oh off res email amathur alpha ces cwru edu
comp.windows.x	compiling x programs hi guys it has been a long time since i wrote a program using x i am trying to get myself re familiarize with x i would appreciate your help regarding the following problem i am trying to compile a simple x program on sun running sunos using cc o ex ex c lxaw lxmu lxt lxext lx lm i am getting an error ld undefined symbol get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass the simple program i tried to compile is given below include stdio h include x intrinsic h include x stringdefs h include x xaw form h main argc argv int argc char argv widget toplevel widget frame toplevel xtinitialize ex ex null argc argv frame xtcreatemanagedwidget form formwidgetclass toplevel null xtrealizewidget toplevel xtmainloop i got the same error when i tried to build xpostit using the imakefile provided with the software i have compiled x programs before not on this machine but on other machines running sunos and x r i did not get this error message can anybody tell me why i am getting these messages i would appreciate if you can email your responses to me at azn ruts ccc amdahl com thanks anand
comp.windows.x	re hypercard for unix queloz bernina ethz ch ronald queloz writes hi netlanders does anybody know if there is something like macintosh hypercard for any unix platform there are several products you might investigate if you ve got per seat and high end hardware gain momentum might be a good choice it isn t compatible with hypercard but has a similar architecture and way more functionality i don t have contact information but they were recently purchased by sybase who shouldn t be too hard to find if you re running news on sparc check out hyperlook hyperlook turing com it uses postscript as a scripting language which is good if you need to do lots of display oriented scripting but not so good for non programmers it was last i heard you might also look at our product metacard we re alpha testing direct importing of hypercard stacks we ve even made the test release available for anonymous ftp so we re obviously the closest in functionality metacard runs on most unix workstations and costs email to info metacard com for more details scott thanks in advance ron scott raney remember the better you look raney metacard com the more you ll see lidia
comp.windows.x	regression testing and x i d appreciate any feedback on capture playback tools for use with x clients i have pulled xtm from public domain but it appears to be set up to test x servers not x clients any comparisons comments on regression testing tools would be great particularly xtm xrunner autotester and sri s capbak smarts and exdiff megan grenenger megan cs uq oz au
comp.windows.x	re need shading program example in x i think the original post was searching for existing implementations of f i gouroud shading of triangles this is fairly complex to do with plain x simpler shading models are implemented already f i in x d ask archie where to get the latest version for gouroud a fast implementation will be possible utilizing some extension only either mit shm to do the shade in an image and fast update the window with it or pex opengl which should be able to shade themselves the portable vanilla x way would be to shade in a normal ximage and use xputimage what would be good enough to do static things as f i fractal landscapes or such stuff to speak about povray the x previewer that comes with the original source package is not that good especially in speed protocol friendlyness and icccm compliance have a look on x q my own preview code it is on pub gfx ray misc x q the readme states the points where it is better than xwindow c from povray the version i have is using the x q code instead of the default x windows code i have it currently running on a dec alpha running openvms axp and so far have been pretty impressed the only side effect of x q is that it requires xstdcmap best be run before it will work annoyning but not a show stopper patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	re tektronix i remember seeing something in the x distribution mentioning support for a tektronix terminal in an x server is this accurate xterm supports x emulation patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	allocated colors can anyone out there tell me how to get the total number of color cells allocated in the default colormap e g colormap defaultcolormap mydisplay myscreen the maximum number of allocated cells is given by defaultcells mydisplay myscreen but in general the number of cells actually allocated will be much less than this depending on the color requirements of the windows currently in place i d like a way to determine this number thanks in advance derek derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
comp.windows.x	unsubscribe pancamo blkbox comm please unsubscribe pancamo blkbox com this user has become inactive and i wish to discontinue his participation in this mailing list marc newman mknewman lkbox com
comp.windows.x	re drawing lines inverse xor you can also set the foreground to the xor of the foreground and background colors xsetforeground fg bg this works great for me at least with truecolor visuals
comp.windows.x	re x load on the network bkline occs nlm nih gov bob kline writes can someone point me in the direction of any papers not necessarily formally conducted studies discussing how much traffic x apps generate for the network particularly in comparison with curses bases apps over telnet also does an x server typically buffer up user keyboard input a line at a time can the x client control this asking for keystrokes immediately thanks in advance for any feedback ncd has an excellent document titled host loading considerations in the x environment i received my copy by emailing support ncd com this may help out tim white university of south carolina tim otis hssc scarolina edu humanities and social sciences laboratory columbia s c
comp.windows.x	re tektronix in article tgv com mahan tgv com patrick l mahan writes i remember seeing something in the x distribution mentioning support for a tektronix terminal in an x server is this accurate xterm supports x emulation what i was talking about was using an tek terminal as your x display i should be possible to write an x server that does this as far as i can tell but what i m asking is if there is already one mike hopper acs virginia edu i will not raise taxes on the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	how to mask the left button i am posting this for a friend whose news service is fubared as usual i will forward replies to him or if you want to try to reply directly try return path uunet sunfse ese lmsc lockheed com mcfar pr i have an event handler working for a buttonpressmask like xtaddeventhandler plot data display buttonpressmask false show mouse position plot data but i would like to be able to have two types of actions one to occur with the left mouse the other the right and perhaps one with the middle so my event handler would look more like xtaddeventhandler plot data display left buttonpressmask false show left mouse position plot data xtaddeventhandler plot data display right buttonpressmask false show right mouse position plot data however i don t know how to make my left buttonpressmask there didn t seem to be one in the event mask lists i had on hand although button motionmask looked promising my references also mentioned using to or two mask events can you use to and two masks would i want to in this case any help would be appreciated thanks lrm
comp.windows.x	remote tektronics emulation hello i am looking for someone to help me with the proceedure for remote login via modem not ethernet to our new silicon graphics iris machines i can log in to them only as a vt terminal regardless of what i am emulating on my end i have communication software kermit which supports tek x and vt emulation the x windows manual lists xterm as the appropriate command to change the terminal type when i try it the reponse is unable to open window thanx in advance keith grider keith grider come on man let s go do the crimes kgrider magnus acs ohio state edu yeah lets get sushi and not pay repo man
comp.windows.x	x r on sun cg comes up mono the prints out the following message about it s framebuffer cgtwo at vme d x vec xa cgtwo sun color board fast read anybody know the story on this can i have an impulse item instead henry d reynolds hdr ross com or hdr nidhog cactus org fone x ross technology inc fax hwy west suite austin tx
comp.windows.x	how do i modify key map hello folks i m seeing these errors when i try to modify my key map mwm invalid accelerator specfication line x i ve added a line in the start up file before the line that starts mwm it looks like the following xmodmap keymapfile mwm i think that the problem has to do with a conflict between function keys f through f which already have assigned functions e g move minimize etc the odd thing is that i don t see these errors if i run xmodmap keymapfile from an xterm can anyone suggest a way to modify the key map specifically f through f and not have mwm motif window manager complain i realize this is a bit stupid but we only have time to implement not time to learn how to implement terry
comp.windows.x	re xman source jlong b pps berkeley edu john long writes where can i get xman source i would like to get the binaries for xman for an hp but i would settle for source try xport lcs mit edu in direcotry contrib chun hung lin l t r csie ntu edu tw communication multimedia lab dept of comp sci info eng national taiwan university taipei taiwan r o c
comp.windows.x	faq in comp windows x is there any faq list for programming in x windows thankx for the info bye venky
comp.windows.x	editres under pie tvt wm hi looking for any advice or suggestions about a problem i m having with mit x r s editres in particular under twm variants for a start times out of but not always editres won t grab a widget tree when running on our ncd decwindows xterms which i m told will be fixed when the r not r xdm is installed ok so i tried running it on a sun running real r on the same network i get a widget tree but it s always for twm icon manager anybody know of any patches for a twm or b editres that i should look at thanks k
comp.windows.x	repost xview slider hi xperts this is a repost no one responded to my desperate yell i can t believe there is no xview wizards any more i m using sliders in my xview apps usually with editable numeric field but i seem to have no control over the length of this field in some apps it appears long enough to keep several characters in some it cannot keep even the maximum value set by panel max value as i understand panel value display length which controls number of characters to be displayed in text items doesn t work in the case of slider despite the fact that panel h contains the following bit panel multiline text item panel numeric text item panel slider item and panel text item attributes panel notify level panel attr attr enum panel value display length panel attr attr int which gives a hint that this attribute can be used for sliders but setting this attribute gives nothing and xv get ting this attribute gives warning bad attribute and returns value strange thing is that dec s port of xview gives plenty of space in a text fields but not sun s xview can someone share his experience in managing sliders in xview with me and clear this problem any help is very much appreciated yuri yuri uk ac hw phy
comp.windows.x	bit static color will clients like it i m writing an x server for some video generation equipment the hardware is truecolor in yuv space in x terms it has a bit static color visual i would really like to have the server just present this static visual but i m not sure if this will be acceptable to most x clients the three problems i see are the colormap though huge is static all pixels would be bytes wide because the hardware actually lives in yuv space the translation rgb yuv will introduce some rounding error being more of a server guy than a client guy i ask will these limitations thwart many x clients or will most of the x stuff floating around blithely accept what they re given i could write the server to also present a pseudocolor visual of e g bits but i d rather avoid this if not necessary i know there are no absolutes but i d appreciate hearing people s opinions and suggestions thanks frederick g m roeber cern european center for nuclear research e mail roeber cern ch or roeber caltech edu work r mail cern ppe geneva switzerland home
comp.windows.x	polygon to raster converter required can anybody tell me if they know where i can obtain the source code for a polygon filling algorithm or any other graphics orientated mailing lists that may be able to help me thanks paul paul jaques systems engineer camborne school of mines rosemanowes herniss penryn cornwall e mail pjaques csm ac uk tel stithians fax
comp.windows.x	graphics editor required see subject an opportunity for sales people persons entities i am looking for a commercial pd graphics editor with fairly limited abilities that runs under x and preferably uses motif widgets it must run on hp ux version either with or without the pex extension the sort of things i want are simple drawing resizing and moving of objects such as lines rectangles and text bounding rectangle operations are sufficient for object selection ideally it should also allow the creation and placement of more complex objects such as widgets e g text entry fields or labels but this is not mandatory does anyone have such an animal if you do please mail me with details including price especially run time licensing since it must be included in a product alternatively send glossies to me at logica newman street london w including technical info please for pd stuff i have some effort that could be put into porting thanks for any help nicholas young nicholas young
comp.windows.x	help received from eei eeiihy vax xpert expo lcs mit edu inet mail user in vax and internet help
comp.windows.x	core dump from getcons we are getting a memory fault and a core dump whenever we end a motif session under ultrix running on a dec an examintion of the core file leads us to believe it s from getcons does anyone know what this is all about marc marc wiener marc aip org american institute of physics sunnyside blvd voice woodbury ny fax
comp.windows.x	a question i do not found in faq i created a pixmap or drawable window then used xdrawline function drawed a line as below fingure width p height p p i created the pixmap or drawable window only with size x but i draw line from p x y to p x y my question is dose the xdrawline function can finger out that correct p x and y for me if you calculate x and y x art tan degrees y x tan tan integer how do i prove xdrawline give me the right x y or not please don t ask me why i don t created a x pixmap no i don t wan to thanks in advance raymond h chui nswc n new hampshire ave silver spring md u s a voice ext fax email rchui opal nswc navy mil o o
comp.windows.x	re a question i do not found in faq comp windows x in article apr relay nswc navy mil rchui nswc wo nswc navy mil raymond chui writes please igore my previouse calculation mistaked please see the correct calculation sorry i created a pixmap or drawable window then used xdrawline function drawed a line as below fingure width p height p p i created the pixmap or drawable window only with size x but i draw line from p x y to p x y my question is dose the xdrawline function can finger out that correct p x and y for me if you calculate x and y x art tan degrees y tan integer how do i prove xdrawline give me the right x y or not please don t ask me why i don t created a x pixmap no i don t wan to thanks in advance raymond h chui nswc n new hampshire ave silver spring md u s a voice ext fax email rchui opal nswc navy mil o o raymond h chui nswc n new hampshire ave silver spring md u s a voice ext fax email rchui opal nswc navy mil o o
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm yet again the escape sequences you are speaking about here are non standard and dangerous in fact an ansi compliant sequence parser hangs on them why are there such strange esc sequences instead of compatible dsc o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	x interactive performance we recently got an ncd x terminal to evaluate this is running xremote over a serial line i wanted to get some measurement of response time so i wrote a small xlib program which simply creates a window maps it and sends the first expose event to itself the program times the delay from sending the event to receiving it i thought this was the simplest way to test client x server round trip delays it s a similar concept to the ping c program is this a valid test to perform i ve also tried the xbench program available from ftp uu net which bombards the server with graphics operations but i just wanted to get a quantative measure of what is acceptable interactive response time has anyone got any ideas on this subject thanks andrew afielden mlsma att com andrew fielden at t network systems uk tel information systems group sun support email afielden mlsma att com
comp.windows.x	creating a gif file we are looking for a x client which can convert a xwd or a bitmap file into a gif file for use on a macintosh thanks michel crnsu in p fr laurent michel crn gti bp strasbourg cedex france phone
comp.windows.x	re pulldown menu periodically hangs application on openwindows skip koppenhaver skip eco twg com wrote has anyone found a fix for the following problem client software sunos x r server hardware sun ipc server software sunos open windows w patch a motif application will periodically hang when run against the openwindows server xnews the pulldown is displayed but then no button actions have any effect sometimes pressing return will unstick the application but not usually it looks like the pulldown is grabbing the focus and never letting go other windows on the display continue to get updated so the server isn t hanging if i log in from another terminal and kill the motif application then everything gets back to normal the same application when run against other x servers including mit x r xsun decwindows tektronix x terminal has no problems this is obviously a openwindows problem but i need a work around since most of our customers are openwindows users i have seen the same problem using a sparcstation solaris ow in my case it happens far more often than periodically help
comp.windows.x	mail hello networld i m looking for an x mailreader is there a xelm andreas andreas dunker andreas appel hydromech uni hannover de we all live in a yellow subroutine andreas veeble han de the beatles
comp.windows.x	re looking for an r xserver for hp update your to hp ux you get an r server and libraries greg hughes gmh fc hp com
comp.windows.x	re creating a gif file in article aa crnsu in p fr michel crnsu in p fr writes path wldelft nl sun nl mcsun uunet gatech enterpoop mit edu internet news mail gateway from michel crnsu in p fr newsgroups comp windows x subject creating a gif file date apr organization the internet lines sender news athena mit edu message id aa crnsu in p fr nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu to xpert expo lcs mit edu we are looking for a x client which can convert a xwd or a bitmap file into a gif file for use on a macintosh thanks michel crnsu in p fr laurent michel crn gti bp strasbourg cedex france phone just look at the pbmplus package it does everything you could ever ask for in converting pbm to almost any format gif tga pcx etc arno duijndam
comp.windows.x	re is it just me or is this newsgroup dead in article e d tgv com mahan tgv com patrick l mahan writes i ve gotten very few posts on this group in the last couple days i recently added it to my feed list is it just me or is this group near death seen from the mailing list side i m getting about the right amount of traffic and seen from my point of view i get far too much articles to keep up with them i am lucky if i can scan through the subjects from time to time dipl inform rainer klute i r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel d w dortmund fax new address after june th univ dortmund d dortmund
comp.windows.x	wanted x security posting a few days ago there was a posting in this group by andrea winkler titled x and security x technical conference i was one of the instructors of that tutorial unfortunately my system purged the message before i had a chance to see it and i don t have andrea s email address if someone has andrea s address and or the posting i would really appreciate it if you d forward it to me thanks jeremy jeremy epstein internet epstein trwacs fp trw com trusted x research group voice trw systems division fairfax virginia jeremy epstein internet epstein trwacs fp trw com trusted x research group voice trw systems division fairfax virginia
comp.windows.x	hp a graphics terminal emulators i would be grateful to anyone who knows about an x windows application that would emulate hp a graphics in a manner similar to the way tek graphics windows are implemented in xterm thanks for you help oleg roytburd oleg sdd comsat com
comp.windows.x	andrew was re x toolkits excerpts from netnews comp windows x apr x toolkits paul prescod undergrad m i get the impression andrew is from the fsf but i don t know what it looks like either the andrew user interface system is supported maintained enhanced and distributed by the andrew consortium carnegie mellon the distribution terms are those of the x consortium not the gnu public license thus anyone can commercially exploit the andrew code without restriction to encourage membership however we defer universal release of the latest versions until consortium members have had an opportunity to explore the new capabilities to se what auis looks like you can try a remote demo you need an x server r is best on a machine linked to the internet give the command finger help atk itc cmu edu for instructions note the demo version does not use the motif look and feel scrollbar but one is available you can use it on the demo by changing an option in the preferences file and starting a new editor the andrew toolkit component of auis is ideal if you want to build applications using compound documents andrew s major feature is its architecture for recursive embedding of objects equation in table in figure in text for example this architecture extends to areas not usually found in toolkits including file stream formats cut paste and printing andrew also provides some of the most commonly requested applications word processor spreadsheet drawing editor and font editor the latter two are in version which will be generally released on the xr tape in december fred hansen director andrew consortium
comp.windows.x	x graphics accelerators how can i obtain public information documentation and sources about xservers implemented with graphics processors i am specially interested in xservers developed for the tms texas instruments graphic processor please send answer to arana labein es
comp.windows.x	xpm g is available on export lcs mit edu directory contrib and avahi inria fr directory pub xpm xpm f to g patch z xpm g tar z copyright groupe bull see license conditions in file copyright history of user visible changes g enhancements much faster close colors piping from to compressed files now handles gnu s gzip z format added xpmcolorkey attribute ability to specify which visual s colors to use ie now it s possible to read in a pixmap in a color visual but use the colors specified for monochrome added mono grey grey and color options to sxpm to demonstrate the xpmcolorkey attribute jason patterson jasonp fitmail qut edu au bugs corrected fixed bug where redefining none as a pixel stopped mask generation minor svr defines for string h fixed annoying closecolor bug related to read write color cells fixed minor bug in color value pixel overloading manual updated to include new red green blue closeness attributes jason patterson jasonp fitmail qut edu au the top imakefile was missing the depend target sxpm imakefile fixed so that l lib is set before the standard library location vivek khera khera cs duke edu lib xpmp h now defines bcopy as memcpy for vms required by recent versions of vms j daniel smith dsmith ann arbor applicon slb com the lib imakefile didn t work with x r arnaud le hors lehors sophia inria fr bull research france koala project
comp.windows.x	re xt intrinsics slow popups in article minster york ac uk cjhs minster york ac uk writes bryan boreham bryan alex com wrote in article minster york ac uk cjhs minster york ac uk writes the application creates window with a button quit and press me the button press me pops up a dialog box the strange feature of this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the first time if i try to pop it up a nd time rd th time it is much slower the shell is waiting for the window manager to respond to its positioning request the window manager is not responding because it thinks the window is already in the right place exactly why the two components get into this sulk is unclear to me all information greatly received the only time i ve seen similar behaviour is when an x application forked a child without setting close on exec on the x display connection file descriptor the shell waited for a configurenotify event that never arrived because it got picked up by the child sometimes the shell correctly got the configurenotify if the timing was right gary phillips email gary ioc co uk phone phones cix compulink co uk fax
comp.windows.x	re imake help needed in article apr def bae co uk paul def bae co uk paul byrne writes can someone please give me some pointers to setting up imake in a sun openwindows enviornment i ve checked through all the documentation but can not find any clues sun s openwindows imake is broken i suggest installing imake pure mit s x r imake you can get it from ftp germany eu net in file pub x misc imake imake pure tar z byte dipl inform rainer klute i r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel d w dortmund fax new address after june th univ dortmund d dortmund
comp.windows.x	x server for nt does anybody have an x server for nt that they re willing to share files or experiences bill steer westinghouse
comp.windows.x	sun x r undeletable console messages we have an old sun here which gets occasional use when x r is started on it any console messages during startup are undeletable after x is fully started we run an xterm as the console the problem is that any messages that arrive before this starts go to the plain console refresh window fails to remove them the messages are a real pain since they sit in the middle of the screen obscuring anything else below them at boot time the lists two framebuffers dev cgfour and dev bwtwo we re running x in color and i suspect that maybe the offending messages are on the b w framebuffer and thereby not getting deleted my question is has anyone else seen this and is there an easy way to get rid of these messages please reply by e mail to hughm inmos co uk hugh mcintyre inmos ltd bristol uk btw sunos x r mwm ps i know i can redirect output of the relevant commands to dev null i m looking for a more general solution
comp.windows.x	re bit static color will clients like it in article apr vxcrna cern ch roeber vxcrna cern ch frederick roeber writes i m writing an x server for some video generation equipment the hardware is truecolor in yuv space in x terms it has a bit static color visual i would really like to have the server just present this static visual but i m not sure if this will be acceptable to most x clients the three problems i see are the colormap though huge is static all pixels would be bytes wide because the hardware actually lives in yuv space the translation rgb yuv will introduce some rounding error being more of a server guy than a client guy i ask will these limitations thwart many x clients or will most of the x stuff floating around blithely accept what they re given i could write the server to also present a pseudocolor visual of e g bits but i d rather avoid this if not necessary even bit truecolor machines are in most cases running an emulated bit pseudocolor visual only to get standard x clients motif apps and thelike to run i strongly suppose you to emulate at least bit truecolor should be no problem only some translation rounding should not make big misfits bit pseudocolor more of a problem you have to emulate a colormap pixel indices conversion stuff furthermore you should run your default screen on this visual o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	plane xterminal do i want one i ve been offerred an old bits pixel greyscale xterminal aside from the real people have already upgraded to risc architecture r servers do i want this xterminal i m concerned about the planes i ve only ever heard of mono and colour planes will i have any concerns with this plane unit specifically related to planes vs or thanks c ps all r apps run on r r servers right
comp.windows.x	unix interest group where is it i know that this is not the correct place to post this but i have exhausted all other logical options i used to be on the info unix newsgroup mailer the mailers mysteriously quite coming around the end of last year all e mails requesting that i be placed back on the list have been ignored i have been unable to locate the administrator of this list if anyone knows of the internet address that i can send a the request to get back on this list can you please send it to me if you don t know of this specific newsgroup mailer i would appreciate the address of any unix related newsgroup thanks cutoff steve slosser ntsc rd navy mil ps sorry for the non x related question
comp.windows.x	re bit static color will clients like it even bit truecolor machines are in most cases running an emulated bit pseudocolor visual only to get standard x clients motif apps and thelike to run i strongly suppose you to emulate at least bit truecolor should be no problem only some translation rounding should not make big misfits depends on the nature of the rounding x allows the user to do bit arithmetic on pixel values i e xor foreground and backgroun pixel values together to calculate a foreground color that when used with a function of gxxor fill change foreground to background and vice versa if your rounding does not preserve these types of calculations then clients that use them will break ken kenneth whaley kubota pacific computer inc email whaley kpc com walsh avenue santa clara ca
comp.windows.x	re moolit and olit in article stevedavc y jz d netcom com stevedav netcom com steve davidson writes does anyone know the difference between moolit and olit does sun support moolit is moolit available on sparcstations moolit motif open look intrinsic toolkit allows developers to build applications that can switch between motif and open look at run time while olit only gives you open look internet chunhong vnet ibm com
comp.windows.x	archie client xgetftp needs an archie client program does anybody know where i can get it thanks in advance kai
comp.windows.x	re bit static color will clients like it in article apr vxcrna cern ch roeber vxcrna cern ch frederick roeber writes i m writing an x server for some video generation equipment the hardware is truecolor in yuv space in x terms it has a bit static color visual i would really like to have the server just present this static visual but i m not sure if this will be acceptable to most x clients the three problems i see are the colormap though huge is static all pixels would be bytes wide because the hardware actually lives in yuv space the translation rgb yuv will introduce some rounding error we tried to ship an x server once that only supported a bit truecolor visual the main problems we encountered were clients written with logic like the following if defaultdepth assume default depth is bit these clients need an bit deep visual in the root window to run correctly other clients didn t even bother to do that much and just outright assumed they had a dynamic visual class with a dynamic colormap xstorecolors doesn t work on cmaps associated with static or truecolor visual classes but many clients don t bother to check they just start throwing xstorecolor calls at you though both are clearly client error this is the case with so many clients that it s easier for you to expose bit pseudocolor as a default root window visual than it ever would be for all these client writers to change their clients to do the right thing paul pmartz dsd es com evans sutherland
comp.windows.x	using message passing with xtaddinput in the past i have used named pipes to communicate between processes using the xtaddinput function to set up the event handling in motif does anybody know of a way to do this with message passing ipc i tried it here and no luck so far thanks
comp.windows.x	red color on button on enter window this may be an faq but i dont know where to get the faq list my openlook application has a few buttons the first button turns red gets highlighted as soon as the sprite mouse is moved into the application window how do i suppress this vidyaranya
comp.windows.x	re asynchronous x windows no it isn t it is the x window system or x or x or any of a number of other designations accepted by the x consortium in fact doing man x on pretty much any x machine will tell you the x consortium requests that the following names be used when referring to this software x x window system x version x window system version x there is no such thing as x windows or x window despite the repeated misuse of the forms by the trade rags this probably tells you something about how much to trust the trade rags if they can t even get the name of the window system right why should one trust anything else they have to say i used to think this way and not just about x for example incorrect english constructs such as its raining or it s window id annoy me however there comes a time when popular usage starts to dictate the way things really are in the world indeed the fact that x won out over news was really down to popular opinion i know we all think it s technically superior as well on a related topic who is to say that color is more or less correct than colour being irish and hence using english english as opposed to american english i always use the latter except of course for api terms such as xalloccolor and colormap in a world that uses the term windows to refer to microsoft windows perhaps the time has come to accept x windows as a valid term for x i think that this is a more concise and uncluttered term than say the x window system and let s face it almost everyone uses it ultimately we all need product sales to more than just x literate people in this respect product recognition is important and a short snappy descriptive title x is positively obscure will help when dealing with the average punter it s sad i thought i was a software engineer indeed it is unfortunate that x did not become popularly known as windows and let ms worry about whether it should be called microsoft windows or the microsoft window system or how about just plain microsoft to summarise or should that be summarize the point of this message i think there are far more pressing issues facing the x community than worrying about subtle distinctions in the naming of the window system or should that be windowing system whatever gets recognised is fine by me i agree that one should be careful in interpreting what trade papers say however i would be reluctant to come to this conclusion purely on the basis of how they name the x window system gerard o driscoll gerard odriscoll dps co uk du pont pixel systems ltd
comp.windows.x	xm and ow server we have a program written with x r and motif it runs fine on the sun x r server and macx when that program is run under the sparc and the ow server the program crashed itself along with the server it crashed before the first window had showed up i got the following error from x xio fatal io error broken pipe on x server perot after requests known processed with events remaining the connection was probably broken by a server shutdown or killclient i have run the program with xmon and below is the last twenty lines or so from xmon before both the program and server crashed request getproperty delete false window win property atm type atm long offset reply getproperty format type none bytes after request getinputfocus reply getinputfocus revert to parent focus win d request changeproperty mode replace window win property atm type atm format data request getinputfocus please email to me if you have any idea of the above problem thanks in advance mw chiu mwchiu tigr org
comp.windows.x	re asynchronous x windows in zztop dps co uk gerard dps co uk gerard o driscoll writes no it isn t it is the x window system or x or x or any of a number of other designations accepted by the x consortium there is no such thing as x windows or x window despite the repeated misuse of the forms by the trade rags i used to think this way and not just about x for example incorrect english constructs such as its raining or it s window id annoy me however there comes a time when popular usage starts to dictate the way things really are in the world well yes and no i don t particularly want this discussion to spark a lengthy debate but i do think it s worth pointing out that popular usage is not always sufficient excuse in this case for example i think an appropriate parallel may be found in the pronunciation of proper names if people commonly misspelled or mispronounced your name would you feel compelled to change it probably not the same is true of x the x window system x x and related monickers are proper names in the same sense that any product name is a proper name in fact some of them are trademarked names the fact that many people get them wrong is largely beside the point as for the trade publications that promulgate things like x window or x windows or any of the other nonsensical variants one often sees consider the fact that these publications are supposedly written by journalists would you trust the facts of a journalist who couldn t be bothered to get the name of his her source right would you trust a product review by someone who got the name of the product wrong popular usage is as it may be but i for one am all for holding people who claim to be journalists to a higher standard of correctness indeed the fact that x won out over news was really down to popular opinion i know we all think it s technically superior as well x technically superior to news well in some alternate universe perhaps
comp.windows.x	unisys emulation has anyone seen source to an xterm package ready to perform unisys terminal emulation got a clunker and got a connect return mikell cactus org mikell cactus org calame linebarger graham pena attys at law
comp.windows.x	cfp andrew technical conference reminder plan now for the andrew conference date the dates are as noted below we have not changed them submission extension we are still accepting papers tutorial topic converting andrew source code to c this tutorial will discuss the steps necessary to convert a site from c extended with classc to c conversion of the source code requires only a couple of steps run the converter fill in missing type information describing this will not take long the remainder of the day will be spent learning how to write objects in c and practicing andrew technical conference and consortium annual meeting june carnegie mellon university pittsburgh pa the conference will be held on the last thursday and friday in june a tutorial will be on thursday the th and the conference proper on the th with the annual meeting at the dinner on the evening between the two days all conference attendees are welcome at the annual meeting though only consortium members will be able to vote this year s theme is application construction by non programmers much of the effort on x toolkits has been aimed at programmer construction of applications there have however been some excellent uims systems built on top of x papers addressing the theme will consider questions such as what is needed for application construction by non programmers can we avoid programming altogether or is a simple language needed is it sufficient to create applications or must users be able to create new widgets should widgets and applications be able to print themselves your participation in the conference is welcome papers are appropriate on the theme or any aspect of the andrew user interface system including applications experience with users new objects reviews of and proposals for revision of internal andrew protocols we expect to have an rs with video projector available if you would like to do a demonstration paper proposals should be submitted by may acceptance will be june with final papers due by june send papers via electronic mail to wjh andrew cmu edu fred hansen director andrew consortium
comp.windows.x	xarchie available on export please accept the following announcement for comp windows x announce gf a completely revamped version of the x browser interface to archie xarchie is now available as export lcs mit edu contrib xarchie tar z for those not familar with archie or xarchie i include part of the manpage intro xarchie is an x browser interface to the archie internet information system using the prospero virtual filesystem protocol archie provides information about files available for ftp anywhere on the internet xarchie displays this information using an easy to use point and click interface xarchie allows you to further explore ftp sites by examining directories returned as query matches and allows you to retrieve files located this way xarchie has been extensively tested on r r and a variety of other flavors of x and on a wide range of machines a summary of the new features from the readme follows major improvements include multiple selections allowed in browser for use with other new features fwf multilist widget ability to expand directories in browser real fully integrated ftp implementation ability to save and reload query results as well as print them ability to resort results and sort results by user definable pseudo weights online help browser color resources done so that they don t break mono displays fwf fileselector widget for local file operations makefile dst s supplied for the imake impaired george george ferguson arpa ferguson cs rochester edu dept of computer science uucp rutgers rochester ferguson university of rochester vox rochester ny fax
comp.windows.x	re regression testing and x megan grenenger megan cs uq oz au wrote i d appreciate any feedback on capture playback tools for use with x clients any comparisons comments on regression testing tools would be great particularly xtm xrunner autotester and sri s capbak smarts and exdiff how about starting where i could find any of these for the commercial ones at least a phone number would be appreciated bill poitras molecular simulations inc tel bill msi com burlington ma fax ftp mail mail ftpmail decwrl dec com offers ftp via email subject cr help cr quit
comp.windows.x	re how to get bit color with xview frames amathur ces cwru edu alok mathur writes i would like to know how i can set the depth of the frame to be bits i tried using the following xlib code am i using a completely wrong approach here is it possible to set the depth yes and colormap for a window created by xview what am i doing wrong look up xv depth also you might want to try using xview colormap segments instead of xlib for your colormap stuff they will probably be easier for you to use and since you are using a truecolor visual you won t be losing anything compared to straight xlib jonathan hue island com
comp.windows.x	announcing the motif mailing list i am glad and proud to announce the new mailing list for the pd motif c bindings i got over replies in about one week of people interested in such a list and the software has now been properly installed so the list is now up and running for those interested in joining please send e mail to that extend to motif request cv ruu nl or rvloon cv ruu nl the blurb everyone who joins gets follows as well as the original announcement for where motif can be obtained enjoy welcome to the motif mailing list the motif mailing list is a mailing list dedicated to motif the pd c wrapper library for motif where people can ask questions about motif swap stories and give new ideas about new directions and improvements for the bindings all requests of an administrative nature like subscription removal etc should be directed to motif request cv ruu nl all e mail sent to motif cv ruu nl will be sent to the entire list so please make sure when using vacation type programs that will reply to messages automatically that the address for the mailing list is excluded from auto replies enjoy ronald van loon in theory there is no difference rvloon cv ruu nl between theory and practice dcv group utrecht the netherlands in practice however there is hello motif world over the past half year there have been a lot of relatively minor changes to the motif bindings imake support has been improved a few defaults have been changed and a lot of other small things have been added this is basically a release which drops the gamma status next release will incorporate some improvements by stefan schwarz and possibly will support x r and motif x note to all of those who keep copies of the archive please retrieve this distribution during off peak hours and delete all previous copies here is the original announcement history the university of lowell supported by a grant of the open software foundation has developed a wrapper library that encapsulates motif widgets in c classes all resources of these widgets can now be set through member functions while objects can be used in callback functions the library was made available for free or nominal cost for anonymous ftp at however the library contained a large number of bugs and oversights and only worked under x r due to lack of subsequent fundings the bindings are no longer actively supported by the university of lowell i ronald van loon at a certain point last year have taken the lowell bindings fixing the bugs i came across adding missing memberfunctions and enhancing functionality and made the bug fixed library available for the general public for anonymous ftp made possible by rick murphy at dec new release i am now pleased to announce a new and updated release of the motif bindings this release offers full motif and x r support support for xbae widgetset two additional widgets written by myself that can be used to indicate progress in an application imake support nb this release relies heavily on the existence of imake and its config files on your site i have tried to provide the bindings with a standard makefile tweakable for those unfortunates without imake i have not severely tested the standard makefile though contact me if you have problems the reason for calling this a gamma release lies in the fact that i do not have a multitude of platforms to test the imake files on lots of testfiles even somewhat useful programs an article i wrote on the usage of motif x and c previously posted on usenet where to get the new motif bindings ftp anonymous ftp at decuac dec com directory pub x note please be patient as the network link is quite slow please do not ftp large files during working hours also note that there is also a motif jan tar z file at this site this is an old version of the bindings e mail those who don t have ftp can send me e mail and i will send the bindings by e mail request those who use the bindings and find bugs or see room for improvement please contact me and i will try to incorporate them in a future release in case of bugs a bug fix of course more information contact me at rvloon cv ruu nl if you are desperate then you can call me at that is utrecht the netherlands those within the netherlands call enjoy ronald van loon in theory there is no difference rvloon cv ruu nl between theory and practice dcv group utrecht the netherlands in practice however there is
comp.windows.x	manual unsubscribe request i am on the list under two addresses i think tom capmgtsci com and zuma tom netcomsv netcom com please delete the second one zuma tom netcomsv netcom com thanks sorry for the screw up tom tulinsky capital management sciences west los angeles tom capmgtsci com
comp.windows.x	looking for updated xview textedit source w d n d support the xview version source distribution included in the contrib section of x r included the source to the textedit program i d like to take the sources and modify them to add support for a tooltalk like message server and maybe for tooltalk while i m at it since the sun supplied textedit binary doesn t seem to speak tooltalk however the sources in the r contrib area seem to be for an older version of textedit than the version shipped with openwindows for example the own textedit includes drag and drop support and a dropsite in the main control area while the source in contrib xview knows nothing about drag and drop the textedit c included in the xview sources says it s version dated while doing a what textedit on the own binary says textedit c copyr sun micro dragdrop c copyr sun micro tooltalk c copyr sun micro ds relname c copyr sun micro so does anyone know if the sources to textedit are available i d really like to work from the latest source if possible please reply by email and i ll post a summary if there s enough interest matt landau waiting for a flash of enlightenment matt centerline com in all this blood and thunder
comp.windows.x	input focus to a window other than where the pointer is i have noticed in framemaker x on both the sgi and sun platforms that certain dialogs such as column layout for example respond to keyboard traversal even though the pointer is not in the dialog window and even though the window manager keyboard focus policy is pointer how is this done i would like to emulate this behavior in my application it seems a reasonable behavior since when a dialog is popped up from a keyboard action the dialog is not guaranteed to be under the pointer and the user should not have to reach for the mouse just to move the focus alternatively i m open to any suggestions as to what is the right way to insure that popups get the focus when they appear particularly when they are invoked from the keyboard and one s keyboard focus policy is pointer allen barnett whose wife graciously allowed to use her account
comp.windows.x	which x events are generated on application exit i m writing an application running under x using motif and i need to do some stuff when the application quits now when i shut down my x windows session it doesn t seem to send a sigterm or whatever signal to my application i m trapping various signals like that therefore i thought i could use an x signal to check for my top level window being destroyed however i seem to get destroynotify events whenever i move windows is there any way for me to check that the window is actually being destroyed some field to check or some combination of events replies by e mail please and i will summarise thanks for any help ian ian compsci liverpool ac uk
comp.windows.x	xavier av extension to interviews dear folks it s a pleasure to be able to announce the release of a new freeware program xavier an audio and video extension to interviews xavier extension av class for interviews is a c class library that adds multimedia capability to interviews it allows composite multimedia objects to be built from media objects specifically it adds audio and video objects to the classes available in interviews and it does so without changing the source code for the original classes though several configuration files for interviews need to be changed via a patch file currently the xavier audio classes are only supported on sun workstations with an audio interface such as the sparcstation xavier has been tested in the following environments sun machine sparcserver sparcstation ipc os sun os or later c sun c ver nec ews machine ews os ews ux v rel wsos release release c c release it can be obtained via anonymous ftp from interviews stanford edu in pub contrib xavier large demo tar and xavier tar we are preparing a mailing list for information regarding xavier if you are interested please contact xavier tsl cl nec co jp i will add your e mail address to our list reference o rei hamakawa hizekazu sakagami jun rekimoto audio and video extension to graphical interface toolkits the third international workshop on network and operating system support for digital audio and video san diego rei hamakawa e mail rei tsl cl nec co jp o o c c systems research laboratories o nec corporation o miyazaki chome tel o miyamae ku kawasaki fax o kanagawa japan
comp.windows.x	re pulldown menu periodically hangs application on openwindows in article rgt innonv ssdc ssdc sterling com rlee ssdc ssdc sterling com richard lee writes a motif application will periodically hang when run against the openwindows server xnews i have seen the same problem using a sparcstation solaris ow in my case it happens far more often than periodically i don t know if there s a corresponding patch for solaris but this sounds like the following bug which is supposedly fixed in the solaris x olwm jumbo patch window system can hang in an errant pointer grab actually i suspect that the ow problem may be different since the readme file says that this patch is just a sunos x version of the ow olwm but maybe that line came from an earlier version of the patch and they forgot to take it out in the version barry margolin system manager thinking machines corp barmar think com uunet harvard think barmar
comp.windows.x	re xsun not running on sparcclassic herzog dogwalk eng sun com brian herzog sunsoft product engineering writes i m just guessing here but i d guess that x r expects the cg to have x resolution and the version of the cg in the sparcclassic is x i ve used x r with classics set for both x and x you can choose which resolution you want in the prom monitor before booting one person had trouble with x r that was fixed by using the multi screen version here s how our version was built you can just copy usr local x r bin xsun from farside rutgers edu if you just want to see whether this version will work r distribution installed from pub r mit and contrib on export lcs mit edu patches installed from pub r fixes on export r xsun multi screen patches installed from contrib r xsun multi screen on export mar solaris patches installed release update from contrib r sunos patch on export mar compilation is with gcc configuration is standard except that the root is usr local x r per rutgers conventions
comp.windows.x	re a question i do not found in faq in article apr relay nswc navy mil rchui opal nswc navy mil writes i created a pixmap or drawable window then used xdrawline function to draw a clipped line i created the pixmap or drawable window only with size x but i draw line from p x y to p x y my question is dose the xdrawline function can finger out that correct p x and y for me if you calculate x and y if you re asking does the x server perform clipping correctly when drawing lines the answer is yes
comp.windows.x	comp windows x i would like to keep track of x development on a ux ultrix openwindows currently i cannot use the newsgroup comp windows x and would like to use the email based info thanks folkert boonstra cap gemini innovation dutch research centre burg elsenlaan phone p o box fax ga rijswijk nl e mail boonstra capints uucp
comp.windows.x	problem with dni and ow can anybody help me i am having a problem displaying images greater than bytes on a sparc ipc running openwindows and dni my program runs on a vax and displays images on the ipc with no problems if i use openwindows the program uses the following lines to display the image it is the xputimage routine that crashes ximage ximage ximage xcreateimage mydisplay defaultvisual mydisplay myscreen ddepth zpixmap image xwid ywid xputimage mydisplay mywindow mygc ximage xpos ypos xwid ywid the error i get is xio fatal io error on x server galaxy after requests known processed with events remaining xlib f ioerror xlib io error system f linkdiscon network partner disconnected logical link trace f traceback symbolic stack dump follows module name routine name line rel pc abs pc b b bbe bbe d d a a myxsubs my imtoiks af test main e ee i have a simple test program if anyone would like to test it thanks paul paul jaques systems engineer camborne school of mines rosemanowes herniss penryn cornwall e mail pjaques csm ac uk tel stithians fax
comp.windows.x	standard colormaps i m working on an x r application and have concerns regarding standard colormaps the x r documentation says usually a window manager creates these colormaps i wonder what window manager the writer had in mind neither twm or mwm seem to create standard colormaps of course one can use xstdcmap to create standard colormaps however xstdcmap doesn t seem to try very hard to avoid conflicts with the default colormap when i use standard colormaps created by xstdcmap the rest of my display goes black so it seems as if use of standard colormaps causes the very problem standard colormaps are intended to avoid perhaps if every application used standard colormaps things would be wonderful but not many applications seem to use standard colormaps finally the operation of the functions xmugetcolormapallocation xmustandardcolormap and xmucreatecolormap seem inconsistent with the section of the x r xlib documentation according to the section of the x r xlib documentation p for grayscale colormaps only the colormap red max red mult and base pixel members are defined the other members are ignored to compute a grayscale pixel value use the following expression gray red mult base pixel xffffffff xmugetcolormapallocation defined in mit lib xmu cmapalloc c is used by xmulookupstandardcolormap defined in mit lib xmu lookupcmap c to select red max green max and blue max values for the call to xmustandardcolormap when the rgb gray map property is specified xmugetcolormapallocation sets red max to of the total number of cells in the gray scale sets green max to of the total number and sets blue max ot of the total number referring to section one would expect xmugetcolormapallocation to set red max to the total number of cells in the gray scale when the rgb gray map property is specified xmustandardcolormap defined in mit lib xmu stdcmap c sets red mult green mult and blue mult all equal to referring to section one would expect green mult and blue mult to be ignored when red mult green mult and blue mult all equal xmucreatecolormap defined in mit lib xmu crcmap c constructs a gray map the sum of red max green max and blue max gives the maximum gray value referring to section on would expect red max to give the maximum gray value
comp.windows.x	xlib timeouts i am in the process of modifying an x application that uses xlib i d like to include a timer driven facility for network polling but cannot see how to do it using xlib i know it can be done with xaw using xtappaddtimeout and xttimercallbackproc how do i do the same using xlib thanks for any help please email dave wilson computing centre rhodes university grahamstown south africa
comp.windows.x	how to unsubscribe from mailing list i try to unsubscribe from this group by sending an email but that doesn t work could some one tell me the listserv address and command for me to unsubcribe i am leaving this friday th april and the mail box will overflow soon after that thanks philip nguyen research engineer flexible manufacturing research and development centre fmr d mcmaster university main st west hamilton on l s l voice ext or fax e mail phil flex eng mcmaster ca
comp.windows.x	how can get a pixel value from a drawable how can get a pixel value from a drawable without having to copy it to the client as an ximage and use xgetpixel i want to select pixels from an animating window on the server without having to copy the whole lot back to my client x r any pointers appreciated gordon gordon c watson meteorology department edinburgh university scotland janet g c watson uk ac ed internet gcw met ed ac uk
comp.windows.x	how to resolve different font formats hi all i tried to run softpc a pc emulation software program installed on a silicon graphics workstation from a human design system hds x terminal and everything went fine except the fonts could not be converted from one type of format to the other hds uses different font format from sgi worksation so i have the following questions how do you resolve different font formats from different machines is there a program to convert one type of font format to another if you have similar problems experiences and have found a solution please let me know your help will be greatly appreciated thank you in advance for your help and information tom nguen edwind lims lerc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	re archie client get xarchie instead o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re standard colormaps in article rjdk inncnh senator bedfellow mit edu jgealow mtl mit edu jeffrey c gealow writes i m working on an x r application and have concerns regarding standard colormaps the x r documentation says usually a window manager creates these colormaps i wonder what window manager the writer had in mind neither twm or mwm seem to create standard colormaps standard colormaps were spec d with the intention that window managers would make them available this doesn t mean that every window manager author in the world immediately dropped everything they were doing and implemented this at top priority the esge server we ship makes the xa rgb best map available at startup it doesn t wait for window managers to do it of course one can use xstdcmap to create standard colormaps however xstdcmap doesn t seem to try very hard to avoid conflicts with the default colormap when i use standard colormaps created by xstdcmap the rest of my display goes black so it seems as if use of standard colormaps causes the very problem standard colormaps are intended to avoid perhaps if every application used standard colormaps things would be wonderful but not many applications seem to use standard colormaps does your hardware have only one clut since standard colormaps typically devour all entries there is no way it can avoid displacing the entire default colormap if your hardware has only one clut i don t believe standard colormaps are intended to aboid possible colormap flashing between clients using the default coilormap rather colormap flashing will be avoided between two clients that use the same standard colormap an example would be two clients that need a full color range would both use xa rgb best map or whatever it s called under x r if you are trying to avoid colormap flashing with the default colormap your best bet is to try to load all the colors you use into that colormap if you can t do that then you ll get flashing on a one hw clut framebuffer now if your window manager used the same standard colormap as your client this flashing could also be avoided perhaps some window managers have command line options for selecting standard colormaps paul pmartz dsd es com evans sutherland
comp.windows.x	imake support for xmosaic imake support for xmosaic although xmosaic is a great program in general it unfortunately comes without imake support so i created one until marc andreessen finds the time to incorporate it in an official xmosaic release you can easily do it yourself use anonymous ftp to get ftp germany eu net pub x misc xmosaic imake tar z the file s size is byte you will need gzip to unpack it have fun dipl inform rainer klute i r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel d w dortmund fax new address after june th univ dortmund d dortmund
comp.windows.x	posix message catalogs can someone tell me in words or less how to compile posix message catalogs so that i can use them with catgets catopen etc i know what the format for the catalogs is but don t know how to compile them please reply to chas blackwhite com thanks in advance chas black white software inc leaders in systems software solutions s bascom ave suite contact black white for information on campbell ca x windows osf motif software support osf motif ms windows gui builders add on widgets editors and help systems info blackwhite com c and ada motif bindings
comp.windows.x	registration andrew tutorial technical conference andrew tutorial and technical conference when thursday and friday june and deadline for registration june where carnegie mellon university in pittsburgh pennsylvania sponsor andrew consortium of cmu s school of computer science schedule the tutorial will be on thursday followed by dinner and the annual meeting the conference proper will be on friday all conference attendees are welcome at the annual meeting wednesday june check in after pm informal reception pm thursday june tutorial a m pm conference dinner pm annual meeting pm friday june technical conference am pm cost tutorial fee includes breaks lunch and tutorial materials conference fee includes conference dinner breaks and proceedings rooms student housing night housing is tight around the campus area so please register soon if you prefer to stay in off campus housing please contact us for suggestions mary anne cowden will be handling registration you can contact her by email mc b andrew cmu edu or by phone registration form please complete the attached form and return it to mary anne cowden andrew consortium technical conference carnegie mellon university smith hall forbes avenue pittsburgh pa cut along here name address organization email phone tutorial conference housing night total enclosed please make checks payable to carnegie mellon university
comp.windows.x	keyboard mapping and window placement questions these are two common subjects so i hope someone has had to deal with these specific questions if my application depends on modifiers what is the best lookup method my choices are to call xgetmodifiermapping for each key press with a modifier or make the call once at the init of the app and store the modifiers in a lookup table i would like to do it the second way but i can t seem to get the notify when the user uses xmodmap to remap the modifiers i know that when an app calls xsetmodifiermapping a mappingnotify event is generated non maskable which i can pick up and modify my internal table but i don t seem to get any notify events when the user uses xmodmap if i use xt all o reilly has to say is is automatically handled by xt if i use xlib ala xnextevent i get nothing this all stems from problems with users of the sun keyboard and the numlock plus various alt meta etc modifier requirements i would like to place a popup so that it will be to the immediate right of my main window i want it at the same y coord and their right left sides touching what i need to ask for is the x y coord of the window manager s border for the main window this should ring a bell with anyone who has called xtmovewidget immediately checking the x y after the move and seeing that it is right and in their next callback asking for the x y and seeing that it is now offset by the wm border any help would be most appreciated darcy darcy mccallum mentorg com
comp.windows.x	save under with x r i have the following problem on x r servers when a window of my is obscured by a pop up window which has the save under attribute set the subwindows of my window are not restored normally the subwindows are redrawn when the parent window gets an expose event but because the save under attribute is used for the pop up window that obscured my window no expose event is sent when exposuremask is set for the child windows those windows are correctly updated when the popup window disappears however then the application gets too many expose events and you see extra redraws everything works fine with x r is this something that is changed between x r and x r obvious is it something i do wrong is there something that the popup window should do which is also mine is this a bug in x release greetings hans bos domain hans xelion nl xelion bv uucp sun nl xelion hans postbus phone
comp.windows.x	overriding default wm behaviour i posted this about tow weeks ago but never saw it make it then again i ve had some problems with the mail system apologies if this appears for the second time usually when i start up an application i first get the window outline on my display i then have to click on the mouse button to actually place the window on the screen yet when i specify the geometry option the window appears right away the properties specified by the geometry argument the question now is how can i override the intermediary step of the user having to specify window position with a mouseclick i ve tried explicitly setting window size and position but that did alter the normal program behaviour thanks for any hints robert ps i m working in plain x using tvtwm robert gasch der erste mai ist der tag an dem die stadt ins oracle engineering freihe tritt und den staatlichen monopolanspruch de meern nl auf gewalt in frage stellt rgasch nl oracle com einstuerzende neubauten headers from uupsi expo lcs mit edu xpert mailer thu apr remote from aolsys received from uupsi by aolsys aol com id aa thu apr edt received from srmftp psi com by uu psi com b psi psinet via smtp id aa for thu apr received from expo lcs mit edu by srmftp psi com psi psinet id aa thu apr edt received by expo lcs mit edu thu apr received from enterpoop mit edu by expo lcs mit edu thu apr received by enterpoop mit edu id aa thu apr received from usenet by enterpoop with netnewsfor xpert expo lcs mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu contact usenet enterpoop if you have questions to xpert expo lcs mit edu date apr gmt from rgasch nl oracle com robert gasch message id nlsun oracle nl organization oracle europe subject overriding default behaviour
comp.windows.x	re x toolkits excerpts from misc apr re x toolkits sivesh pradhaan rebels b i do not have finger so is there any other way of accessing this service like mail server or telnet or ftp you can use telnet xhost atk itc cmu edu telnet atk itc cmu edu run demo
comp.windows.x	realtime x tensions hi iam looking for information on any work that deals with real time support in x windows would be happy if you could provide any pointers or information thanks lakshman lakshman ms uky edu
comp.windows.x	wierd xdm behavior dear sun and windows people i am running sun workstations with sunos and vanilla x r i have a bunch of xterminals as well today i had my xdm fail at about it was impossible to login to a host from an xterminal the message was the xdm too many retransmissions in my xdm errors file i had the following entries error pid server for display terminated unexpectedly error pid warning keyboard on display could not be secured error pid server for display terminated unexpectedly i also had error pid warning keyboard on display could not be secured error pid server for display terminated unexpectedly error pid warning keyboard on display could not be secured error pid server for display terminated unexpectedly also at the console the login box would come up for about seconds and then it would go away it would do this continuously i could login from another workstation to the hosts in question however i could not login on the console i tried killing xdm and restarting it but that didn t help i finally rebooted all the hosts which hurts when done in the middle of the day any help would be appreciated thanks phil phil neal systems programmer statistics department gn university of washington seattle wa usa look another bit repo man the movie
comp.windows.x	re realtime x tensions i am looking for information on any work that deals with real time support in x windows would be happy if you could provide any pointers or information concurrent has a product called realtimex tm that is a set of real time extensions to the x window system realtimex is currently supported on the concurrent series and series with the ga graphics accelerator if you need want more info let me know sam black once you remove the absurdity from human existence there isn t much left black westford ccur com concurrent computer corporation
comp.windows.x	re x interactive performance for image display about frames per second seems to be the lower limit for interactive operations for just bringing up an image for viewing less than second seems to be a good number of course the measure of response time should be based on the applications you are planning to run
comp.windows.x	frame buffer question for x r sun x window installation on a sun with cg alone and with cg as screen and cg as screen questions are there any hardware configuration changes on the cg and or cg devices that need to be made other than pulling out and inserting the cg frame buffer in the vme bus the cg is called a graphics accelerator as apposed to a frame buffer what is the significance of this to the x server and how do we install the sunos driver x to be compatable i would appreciate any information on this i am posting this on the behalf of dr john charlton who does not have net access please reply to him directly at charlton bme unc edu or just send it at this address and i will forward it thank you for your help anay panvalka cs unc edu
comp.windows.x	re plane xterminal do i want one in article c srv w watserv uwaterloo ca chudel watarts uwaterloo ca chris hudel writes ps all r apps run on r r servers right the bit server should work fine as far as i know xterminals running older versions can run the latest apps as long as the host machine has the r libraries installed i could be wrong though mike hopper acs virginia edu i will not raise taxes on the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	menubutton widget question i m trying to create a button that has both a label and a bitmap using the menubutton widget is this possible right now all i get is the bitmap no sign of the label any help would be appreciated scott
comp.windows.x	how to access bit color on cg we have a sun and we have just acquired a cg frame buffer card the cg is supposed to support both a bit color visual and a monochrome visual the default visual for the xnews server is the monochrome and we are unable to change it to the bit visual we have tried using xgetvisualinfo to get a visual of depth but had no success xdpyinfo gives no information about a bit deep visual only monochrome there are two possible solutions if someone has patches for x r xsun server could they forward them to us otherwise could someone instruct us how to access the bit color in openwindows jon herlocker email herlock lclark edu lewis clark college portland or
comp.windows.x	xsun not finding default font sol hi netters i ve just built x r pl under solaris i ve used the multi screen patch as well as the r sunos patch and everything builds great except for that error message xsun gives me upon startup it says cannot set default font path stuff deleted and cannot set default font fixed if i supply the fp option it doesn t complain about the font path but still complains about the font i have symlinks from usr lib to the place where my distribution lives could somebody help me joel joel reymont z code software corporation e mail joel z code com redwood hwy suit b san rafael ca
comp.windows.x	re desqview x on a pc and network traffic in article qdeck com support qdeck com technical support writes in article qtk rn picasso cssc syd tansu com au gpatapis boyd tansu com au writes what sort of traffic is generated with the x calls i am curious to find out the required bandwidth that a link must have if one machine running dv x is supporting multiple users clients and we require adequate response time anyone have any ideas i expect the limiting factor will be your server machine not the network itself to give you a real world example here at quarterdeck we have roughly people using dvx to talk to a bunch of unix boxes novell file servers and each other it s not too much of a load on our ethernet with maybe concentrators so you have people on each segment if you had a badly loaded net or the apps you wanted to run were very network intensive you could run into some slowdowns but the biggest problem would be the machine itself say you have a with plenty of ram and a fast hard disk and network card if you have people running programs off it you re going to see some slowdowns because you re now on effectively a mhz of course dvx will attempt to see if tasks are idle and make sure they give up their time slice but if you have working programs running you ll know it well i can buy a bigger and more powerful server machine because of the significant drop in price year after year the link i want to use though isdn k is costly and the bandwidth limited that s why my interest lies in seeing if such a link can be used and see what traffic goes through it having said that if you can tweak the programs being run by adding in calls to give up time slices when idle and that sort of thing you could probably run people on a given machine before you started seeing slowdowns again this time from network bandwidth hmmm has anyone at your centre monitored the traffic at all are you running any standard ms windows programs like word what sort of packets go blazing through what size link do you have mb or mb what is the average traffic flow going through your network or do you have few high peaks and then many low points it all really depends on what the programs are doing ie you re going to see a slowdown from x bandwidth a lot sooner if your apps are all doing network things also what do you mean by network things i vision using ms windows and other windows applications over the network were the processes are running on the server and all i am getting are the displays i am wondering how good is the x and subsequently dv x protocol in transferring these images with x calls and displaying them on a client s machine quarterdeck office systems internet support tom bortels pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs fax compuserve go quarterdeck q fax from touch tone phone for technotes on demand george patapis pan metron ariston telecom c s s c lane cove email gpatapis cssc syd tansu com au p o box a sydney south fax nsw australia voice
comp.windows.x	hp interface architect hey gui folks does anyone out there have experience with the hp interface architect gui dev tool if so can i call you and ask a couple of quick questions i promise i ll be brief the questions are simple and of course i ll call on my nickel jeff copeland jeffcop i isc com x interactive systems corp now a systemhouse co jeff copeland jeffcop i isc com x
comp.windows.x	xv has escaped no not another false alarm not a it ll certainly be done by next week message no this is the real thing i repeat this is not a drill batten down the hatches hide the women and lock up the cows xv has finally escaped i was cleaning its cage this morning when it overpowered me broke down the office door and fled the lab it was last seen heading in the general direction of export lcs mit edu at nearly k per second if found it answers to the name of contrib xv tar z have a blast i m off to the vacation capital of the u s waco texas jhb
comp.windows.x	searching cad software hi out there i m looking for mechanic construction cad software either pd sources or sun binaries respective the licence who knows any package and a source site to get it thx fabian fabian hoppe phone elsternstr fax w gevelsberg email fabian vivian w open de germany
comp.windows.x	is there a simple way to check what action a mouse button will take w o actually executing it somehow one of my xterminal users has made it so that a click of mb right automatically kills all clients oh my thanx fish john r vanderpool internet fish eosdata gsfc nasa gov nasa gsfc hstx vox so you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it s sinking racing around to come up behind you again rw dg
comp.windows.x	anybody have patched version of xroach for tvtwm i read about the code you can put in to most applications so that the virtual desktop stuff in tvtwm doesn t confuse them or is the application confusing the virtual ness chicken the egg but wanted to see if it has been applied to a version of xroach i never could quite get ssetroot to work either any suggestions luckily xv root quit does the trick for the most part also i ld be quite interested in hearing more about the icon region for each virtual window under tvtwm that i read a thread on last week here thanx fish john r vanderpool internet fish eosdata gsfc nasa gov nasa gsfc hstx vox so you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it s sinking racing around to come up behind you again rw dg
comp.windows.x	help in developing a x windows interface for gdb hi i am trying to write an x windows based interface that runs on top of gdb could anyone help me in understanding the way we are supposed to fork gdb off as a subprocess i currently use pipes but when i try and debug this program the following happens program main int x printf enter x scanf d x printf x d n x output the program hangs without returning the output of the printf statement when i type in a value like then all the printf s output comes out at one time is there any other way besides using pipes to do this i e like ioctl or something else thanks deepak deepak mulchandani advanced products research and development laboratory motorola semiconductor products sector austin tx deepak inxs sps mot com
comp.windows.x	motif server for ascii terminals does anyone know of an x server for character cell terminals doesn t have to be anything fancy as long is it works
comp.windows.x	re finding out state of state keys eg capslock and numlock in aa blue arbortext com rps arbortext com ralph seguin writes my question is this is there a means of determining what the state of capslock and or numlock is i don t know any way except to see what modifiers are on in th keypress event of course if there is some reason why you need to always know the state of modifiers even if your windows don t have the keyborads focus you can always ask for keypress events from the root window then you get all the keypresses and you always know what have been pressed an even more pointed question is there an easy means of making an x keyboard act like a pc keyboard ie capslock is active and the user presses shift a i d like to get a lowercase a instead of a i think this is just a question of how to implement xlookupstring you can always write another function that interprets the keypresses as you like you can look at the implementation of xlookupstring from the xlib sources and then modify it a little bit sami tikka hut fi g sami s tikka o hut admd fumail c fi live long and prosper
comp.windows.x	looking for drawing packages greetings i am developing an application that allows a user to interactively create edit view a visual model i e topology of their network and i was wondering if anyone knew of any builder tools that exist to simplify this task in the past i have used visual edge s uim x product to develop other guis so i am familiar with uimss in general the topology will support objects and connecting links once the topology is created i want to provide the user with capabilities to support grouping zooming etc i am looking for some form of a higher abstraction other than x drawing routines to accomplish this specifically the zooming and grouping aspects may prove difficult and certainly time consuming if i have to roll my own suggestions greg greg software mitel com
misc.forsale	motorcycle wanted followup to kedz wpi wpi edu distribution ne organization worcester polytechnic institute keywords i am looking for an inexpensive motorcycle nothing fancy have to be able to do all maintinence my self looking in the range if you can help me out great please reply by e mail
misc.forsale	boat for sale boat for sale imperial fisherman featuring walkaround cuddy cabin v with volvo duo prop outdrive am fm cassette stereo vhf radio x hummingbird fishfinder all safty equipment covers and much more lb capacity includes storage trailer hardly used less than hrs asking or best offer for further information contact gerald at mansfield oh
misc.forsale	wanted brother p touch as it says i m interested in buying one of the little label makers and i can t afford a new one anybody tired of theirs e mail maureen gt a prism gatech edu maureen l eagle georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt a internet gt a prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	make your own talking elevators complete standalone system no computer required for burning sound files into eproms consists of apollo eprom programmer designed specifically for this job wont do anything else microphone logical devices eprom eraser to wipe the mistakes brand new freight
misc.forsale	rent timeshare week timeshare week for rent must use before july best offer week can be traded to anywhere in the world hawaii austria far east u s etc under interval international will answer questions about that and help you trade we have the paperwork and phone numbers in order to that contact jeff vinson vinson migration com daytime or leave msg
misc.forsale	test 
misc.forsale	for sale farenheit bit for sale orchid fareheit bit color card meg almost new or best offer this is a post for a friend call him thuan pho at t j houchin
misc.forsale	re deal gone bad what to do rjkoppes news weeg uiowa edu randy koppes writes have you head of small claims you may have to put money up front for the filing fees and then possibly having the local sheriff of his her city to deliver the bad news in the end the other party will end up paying for his her mistake with interest from the time of the filing to the pay date of the defendent i think the problem with small claims court is that you have to go to the location of the person you re taking action against it seems to me the time and money involved in travelling out there unless this person is close to you wouldn t be worth it for a small claim it really depends on how much money you re out if i am wrong about any of this someone please correct me kenneth simon dept of sociology indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
misc.forsale	real estate sale residential lot for sale i have a nice residential lot available it is approx imately acre in size it is located in the development called belvedere plantation in pender county eastern north carolina north of wilmington the lot is near the intra coastal waterway golf and tennis are located on the development property belvedere plantation also has a mar ina facility on the icw this lot is nearby to all of the facilities mentioned i own the lot outright but it does not look like i will get back to the area anytime soon i would like to sell it for that reason make an offer if interested please send e mail gt b prism gatech edu mike smith michael davis smith georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt b internet gt b prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	misc radio and related equipment lots of misc and radio related items for sale still trying to lighten my load for moving motorola vhf pager digital no voice or readout capacitor checkers hp cd audio oscillator hz to khz feet brand new hardline for tv with new connectors this is in pieces lots of gain mobile antennas for vhf and uhf uhf amp input on mhz in milliwatts and output on mhz watts out with service manual this came out of a motorola mobilephone make reasonable offer looking for shipping or trade for rca tac uhf dash mount channel w service manual great condition currently on gmrs frequency repeater and simplex with pl of hz nobratron qr power supply by sorensen w service manual this is a amp variable power supply i have used it at vdc weight is lbs motorola tone remote model a works great with monitor button this unit is used to remote a base station with only two wires also have tone remote board from mitrek super consolette make offer could be used with above remote model trn a w schmetics both for motorola handhelds mh w charger speaker mic leather case currently on w dpl dpl decks from motorola moxy radios very reasonable esp if you take all anyone offer each for all or trade for pl reeds i have some or so i think also dpl code plugs e mail if you need some or i will sell all cheep transmit tubes for ge radios new in box db gain uhf mobile antennas by motorola used sold new for make reasonable offer sell for shipping motorcycle control head and cable with frequency selector and speaker all in one channel i believe this came from a micom asking shipping channel elements for motorola micor mitrek motrac sets of vhf micor uhf micor low band motrac more mobile microphones for ge motorola and rca reasonable offer motorola dc remote adaptor model tln apr i still have a few business band service manuals esp ge and motorola e mail for details phone restrict toll boxes use quarters dtmf mobile mic ge master pro uhf mobile not working with accessories this is a trunk mount radio shipping ge base cabinet w rack duplexer cabinet from vhf duplexers rack base cabinet johnson hd satellite dish jack or arm spools multi conductor wire w shield thickness is approx ge master pro mobile control heads and cables eagle model level sensor tells how full a container is the above prices do not include shipping some of the above items are pickup only because of size or weight locations is eastern ohio if interested e mail me or you can call jim sims sr n jdp before pm eastern re sims vax cns muskingum edu
misc.forsale	airline ticket r t between us canada and europe carrib latinam i have one round trip ticket good for travel between usa or canada and europe hawaii latin america or the caribbean it is fully transferable and can be used originating here or there i had intended to use it to visit my grandfather who was sick but he died before i got there so i have no use for it now i m looking for or best offer but act fast it will be gone on april no matter what patrick pat wrs com
misc.forsale	madison chicago italy air ticket wanted hi i am looking for a round trip madison chicago milan italy air ticket anybody who has a transferable ticket but will not use it please contact me at beng cae wisc edu open jaw ticket highly desired thank you b t ting beng cae wisc edu
misc.forsale	multisync d nec monitor for sale i have an nec multisync d monitor for sale great condition looks new it is dot pitch svga monitor that syncs from khz it is compatible with all aga amiga graphics modes leave message if interested make an offer
misc.forsale	forsale sony d diskman newsgroups rec audio misc forsale distribution na subject forsale sony d diskman
misc.forsale	nextstation for sale nextstation mhz moto dsp megapixel perfect no dimming or shaking keyboard mouse of course installed docs network and system administration user s reference applications the next book by bruce webster new copy black nextconnection modem cable hd disks still in unwrapped box others for backing up apps i need to sell this pronto to get a car my engine locked up machine runs great only used in my house has been covered when not in use on the days i wasn t around including federal express second day air or best offer cod to your doorstep within continental us i need to sell this now so if you don t agree with the price make an offer but within reason thanks jt please no letters asking me to donate for a tax break
misc.forsale	re computer books for sale updated list updated list hi everybody i have the following books for sale some of these books are brand new if you find any book you like and need more information about it please feel free to send me an e mail the buyers pays the shipping fees thanks abou sun soe clarkson edu title windows programming an introduction author william h murray iii chris h pappas publish osborne mcgraw hill pp cover soft note covers up to windows asking title harvard graphics the complete reference author cary jensen loy anderson publish osborne mcgraw hill pp cover soft note covers releases through draw partner asking title high performance interactive graphics modeling rendering and animating author lee adams publish windcrest pp cover soft note full of examples programs in basic asking title science and engineering applications on the ibm pc author r severin publish abacus pp cover soft note a lot of examples in basic asking title graphics for the dot matrix printer how to get your printer to perform miracles author john w davenport publish simon schuster pp cover soft note full of examples programs in basic asking title programming with turbo c author s scott zimmerman beverly b zimmerman publish scott foresman and co pp cover soft note some of the pages are highlighted asking title introduction to computer graphics author john demel michael miller publish brooks cole engineering division pp cover soft note example programs in basic and fortran asking title hard disk mangement the pocket reference author kris jamsa publish osborne mcgraw hill pp cover soft note pocket size asking
misc.forsale	re forsale and wanted hd fax typewriter from article pf qe b b seven up east sun com by jorge erex east sun com jorge lach sun bos hardware i m looking to buy the following items fax machine a plain one don t need any extras just the basic model good working order only these sell in stores for dirt cheap so don t make me any offers like it cost me but i ll sell it for pc at hard drive mfm type mbytes half height only i have a seagate st on my machine looking for same or similar type i have the following item for sale electronic typewriter panasonic with k memory small lcd display i m selling it bundled with a panasonic computer interface for this typewriter you can connect it to any pc parallel port sorry no cable it works perfect even in windows tty printer it s great if you need to send letter with typewriter look in stand alone mode it has pitches and several effects like underline bold overstrike built in dictionary and character word line correction asking for both the typewriter and the interface jorge lach sun microsystems computer corporation jorge lach east sun com east coast division chelmsford ma
misc.forsale	forsale sony d discman sony d portable diskman forsale good condition flawless costomer ac adapter v dc power supply tested v dc the factory adapter was tested v dc ac v input at the time i bought it three years ago when using it a lot of heat was generated inside the cd machine of course i wouldn t use it to risk this baby s life maybe that s why so many owners always complain about their portable machine going kaput after a short time usage v dc factory suggested led display asking plus shipping contact harry if interested
misc.forsale	intel memory board for sale i have an intel above board bit with megs of ram that i would like to sell asap please email me offers if interested thanks fred
misc.forsale	cm womens bike for sale i have the following bike for sale type dave scott centurion model size cm c c grouppo shimano cranks cm pedals shimano p with clips and straps frame tange ii double butted steel gearing front rear seat terry womens gel seat computer avocet extras double water bottle cages extra rear tire front c rear setup my wife is asking for obo let me know if you are interested at the address below thanks mike michael c whitman national system engineer telecom pyramid technology corporation gallows road suite vienna va phone pager sky page pin mike pyrdc va pyramid com or uunet pyrdc mike
misc.forsale	roland d for sale for sale roland d or best offer excellent condition includes over patches on disk in cakewalk sysex format buyer must pay cod shipping please e mail responses to gms po cwru edu thanks george george scott gscott b student cwru edu gms po cwru edu
misc.forsale	m dc s for sale we no longer use quarter inch tape for backups and have a case of unopened dc s for sale i ll sell the lot or in boxes of tapes each rob spellman rob mother bates edu computing support services bates college
misc.forsale	books for sale ann arbor mi books for sale tally up any and all of the books you want and send me a message shipping will be by us mail parcel post book rate payment in advance or cod accepted all books are in good to excellent condition paperbacks unless noted quantity discounts this list is updated continually the latest list can be requested by e mail this list supercedes all previous lists not responsible for typos new to listing claimed but not paid for yet david hwang ann arbor michigan david ganglion ann arbor mi us list of february computers using wordperfect que stewart using clipper que tiley trs assembly language programming barden practical programs games in basic tracton first book of wordperfect barnes corvettes y car parts and illustration catalog gm manual secrets of corvette detailing antonick eckler s complete guide to corvette fiberglass repair corvette owners workshop manual haynes chevrolet power catalog gm manual th edition corvette driver owner guide for models antonick chevrolet small block v speed equipment buyers guide lamm chilton s easy car care nd edition medicine ophthalmology study guide for medical students washington manual or medical therapeutics th ed respiratory physiology the essentials west rd ed langman s medical embryology th ed sadler hardcover sold essentials of human anatomy th ed woodburne hardcover sold cardiology reference book rd ed kloner handbook of antimicrobial therapy mandell guide to antimicrobial therapy sanford or free with of med books comprehensive review of the basic sciences sold how to get into medical dental school rd ed sexual interactions allgeier nd ed hardcover on call principles and protocols ruedy physicans desk reference pdr th ed hardcover introduction to general pathology spector nd ed medical school admissions strategy for success weschler getting into medical school brown ten point plan for college acceptance graham other college accounting th ed carson hardcover david w hwang m d university of michigan medical school wall street suite c telephone ann arbor michigan internet david ganglion ann arbor mi us
misc.forsale	music for sale the following listed tapes are priced to sell a friend of mine wants to get rid of them so let s just have some bids why don t we all are tapes btw ac dc back in black good condition razor s edge excellent poison open up and excellent flesh blood excellent guns roses appetite for destr fair use your ill good use your ill good skid row bside ourselves tape ok case cracked slave to the grind excellent jackyl jackyl excellent bon jovi keep the faith single excellent this is for her not for me jason
misc.forsale	meg ide harddrive western digital ide meg hard drive or bo shipping greg holdren gregh hprnd rose hp com geh mothra rose hp com
misc.forsale	re what s wrong with this picture in article apr iscsvax uni edu harter iscsvax uni edu writes fellow netters is anybody awake out there when someone posted a message telling people to stop posting computer ads to the misc forsale group he got about thirty response here not to mention the rash of e mail i m sure he received yet another person posts a message with the subject line blow me and an even worse text and only or people have the guts to say anything the majority not to mention the thread about selling someone s wife i am a guy therefore not overly bummed by it but a little common sense would dictate that this is offensive to many women and not really necessary scott ferguson exxon research engineering co project engineer new jersey all opinions not official view of exxon i must ask the question are we going to play stonehenge tonight
misc.forsale	wanted spi s war of the ring the subject line says it all i m trying to locate a copy of spi s board game war of the ring anyone have a copy with which they are willing to part thanks a million tony tlin stat berkeley edu
misc.forsale	need sharp t parts information i m looking for a sharp or ti travelmate for parts mine has a bad ram chip on the motherboard and i want to see what i can get for parts before sending it off to sharp for repairs if you have one drop me a line also i m trying to set one up for a friend who needs to read his old inch diskettes anyone have the pinout of the diskette expansion connector on the back of the inch floppy box if you respond please include a phone number i can t always get through with email as always thanks jim lewczyk mailer address is buggy reply to jiml strauss ftcollinsco ncr com james lewczyk x ncr mpd fort collins co jim lewczyk ftcollinsco ncr com
misc.forsale	re what s wrong with this picture in article apr erenj com srfergu rufus erenj com scott ferguson writes in article apr iscsvax uni edu harter iscsvax uni edu writes fellow netters is anybody awake out there when someone posted a message telling people to stop posting computer ads to the misc forsale group he got about thirty response here not to mention the rash of e mail i m sure he received yet another person posts a message with the subject line blow me and an even worse text and only or people have the guts to say anything the majority not to mention the thread about selling someone s wife i am a guy therefore not overly bummed by it but a little common sense would dictate that this is offensive to many women and not really necessary good point but i was just thinking i wanted to sell my hp sx calculator here in this newsgroup it is called a calculator but really it is a computer albeit a small one but it does function as one how come car adds are acceptable they cant run without computers nowadays where does one draw the line accept it live with it and if you care to avoid it jonathan i have lots of common sense i just choose to ignore it calvin jonathan sawitsky some random wierdo martimer wpi wpi edu
misc.forsale	super scope for sale snes hello folks i ve a super scope for sale it comes with a crt and all boxes and instructions included shipping included i got that only a month back and used only twice o o o o ooo ooo ooo ooo srikanth ponnapalli e mail address pobox raleigh n c sponna eos ncsu edu phone ponna s aza csc ncsu edu after pm sponnapa math ncsu edu
misc.forsale	sale canon eos elan outfit for sale canon eos elan outfit included eos elan body mm ef usm lens mm ef usm lens b w uv filters hoya circular polarising filter canon rc remote controller pentax lens cloth lowe pro camera bag galen rowell photoflex lens bag sapre lithium battery hove foto bokk user guide to canon eos elan all as new condition the whole lot firm contact david please do not e mail your queries all talks only by phone
misc.forsale	re value of kathy st pat sday stand in article dsblack pv vincent iastate edu dsblack iastate edu vilkata tdk writes i heard on one of these newsgroups a week or two ago that the kathy ireland budweiser posters were popular there are supposedly half size and life size posters well someone i know got a life size stand up cardboard thick damn good quality one and was wondering what it was worth anybody what about the st pat posters from last year i have a stack of about twenty and two of the card board cutouts no they are not for sale i collect them
misc.forsale	help how to get a scumster hi everyone i need an advice on what is the best way to get a scumster several weeks ago i posted an article on behalf of a friend who wanted an external hd for mac the scumster r e p called my friend and they agreed on a price my friend unexperienced and not too fluent in english paid by check requesting r e p to call him back when the check arrives and the hd is send well the check was cashed and that is that phone that r e p gave is on the answering machine all the time and there is no reaction when the message is left e mail address does not bounce but again there is no answer i know that r e p is a student at university of delaware i have his e mail address his us postal address and his phone the question is what is the best way to proceed thanks in advance for any advice sincerely victor levenson vvl h virginia edu p s the reason i did not put r e p s full name is that i still hope p p s if i get enough responses i will post a summary maybe even on a regular basis vl dr victor v levenson tel lab dept of biochemistry internet vvl h virginia edu
misc.forsale	sampler for sale ok people i really need to sell this sampler to pay off bills so i m even going to include sample cds worth at least separately in this deal it s an emax ii with standard memory and bit stereo sampling it s rackmount and has at least voice pol it s got a brand new connor sp meg internal scsi drive wk old never used it works perfect and runs perfect in addition access to a friends sound library of over gig of sounds is available all this for only the sample cd s are based on dance house techno stuff email or call thanks mike
misc.forsale	re amiga etc for sale as of in article pi in isg csugrad cs vt edu dwilson csugrad cs vt edu david wilson writes for sale as of pm amiga ux mhz unix compatible machine w meg hard drive meg ram no monitor keyboard esc and keys broken asking price obo mind my asking why you re selling a used machine with a damaged keyboard for the about the same price as a brand new a a ec megs meg ide hd hd floppy v os i d like to get an a locally for something reasonable like less than k without monitor brand new the a mhz meg hd hd floppy rom isn t running for more than or so considering it s damaged probabably has a real old version of the os i ll offer don t laugh my a isn t worth more than these days n tzeng nigel tzeng sig under construction
misc.forsale	re for sale book of life multi volume book set unopened i was wrong i guess they are closer to new i will probably still sell them for the above implied obo email me if you want more specifics this is a really attractive set of books kind of a bible encyclopedia set also email me if you know more about these books or post the information here
misc.forsale	wanted airconditioner i am looking for a good used window air conditioner a small one is preffered call peter and we ll talk about it or email me khiet cn ecn
misc.forsale	wanted futon i am looking for a large futon and frame call peter or e mail me khiet cn ecn
misc.forsale	misc electronic eqpt panasonic kx t h combo black cordless speaker phone all in one new now shipping obo curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included and it works with universal remotes works great but i replaced it with a stereo vcr paid years ago will sell for delivered obo radio shack stereo amp inputs tone and left and right volume speakers not included plus shipping if you are interested in either of the above mail me at radley gibbs out unc edu major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga university of north carolina
misc.forsale	bernoulli removeable scsi drive disks storage space for sale iomega mb removeable hd for sale w cartridges total storage space comes out to be about mb cartridges still in original shrinkwrapping unused note this is not compatible with sysquest cartridges scsi interface required plugs right into the back of macintoshes but i don t have a controller for the ibm all utilities i have for it are for the mac if you have a mac then this is for you i have a ton of software on these disks that i don t use anymore because i sold my mac system stuff included most of the pd stuff from info mac site lots of gif s and lots of sound effects entire disk with just sounds i am asking for all plus shipping for more information send me mail cxs ultb isc rit edu or call ask for sawran cheers chris cxs ultb isc rit edu cxs ritvax isc rit edu
misc.forsale	electronics panasonic kx t h combo black cordless speaker phone all in one new now shipping obo curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included and it works with universal remotes works great but i replaced it with a stereo vcr paid years ago will sell for delivered obo radio shack stereo amp inputs tone and left and right volume speakers not included plus shipping if you are interested in either of the above mail me at radley gibbs out unc edu major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga university of north carolina
misc.forsale	hard drives etc for sale hard drives all drives include manuals warranty fujitsu gigabyte scsi hard drive quantum meg scsi prodrive fujitsu meg scsi hard drive apple zero footprint hard drive case with power supply accellerated video apple gc accellerated graphics card with software init millions of colors fast hardcopy apple imagewriter ii printer with spare print head these aren t cheap fax machine baud with leather travel case and many other accessories to discuss the purchase of any of these items call john at if you get the answering machine please leave a message with your name and phone number letting me know which piece you are interested in john do not reply to this account
misc.forsale	your custom resume on disk your custom resume on disk macintosh or ibm compatible never pay the high cost of copy service again we will completely develop and format your custom resume package and mail you the disk or transmit the information via electronic mail within hours with over years experience in the employment industry and a member of the national resume writer s association you can leave the burden of developing your resume to us you can easily custom edit all information to target each company and position complete package includes custom developed resume custom cover letter custom follow up letter custom interview thank you letter custom job acceptance letter custom job decline letter custom resignation letter laser printed copies on high quality paper available upon request contact vicki burns via e mail tg n unix andrew cmu edu telephone
misc.forsale	seagate hard drive forsale brand new never been used seagate st a x meg hard drive forsale paid includes mounting brackets i bought it and then ended up buying a new computer bro takes it
misc.forsale	porsche porsche turbo trim spoilers graphite black all around excellent condition removable factory sunroof leather interior new a c new timing belt bra k miles obo patrick patrick boylan wind river systems alameda ca pat wrs com
misc.forsale	bunch o pc stuff for sale got a few things i want to get rid of paradise ega casper ega monitor mhz motherboard dram sipp mhz momboard dram only hayes prodigy special b external modem meg sipp k sipp about megs dram i believe there s m of ns and one of or ns but not absolutely sure also have an xt with k serial board hercules board and amber monitor the only thing this system is missing is the power supply make an offer on any all of this stuff and thanx for contributing to mitch s v bis modem fund mitch note cross posted to several forsale froups followups redirected back to me there s a reason for that i don t read these groups mitch gorman srscnslt telesciences com things are not what they seem through a crack in mother earth blazing hot the molten rock spills out over the land and the lava s the lover who licks your boots away
misc.forsale	electronics panasonic kx t h combo black cordless speaker phone all in one new now shipping obo curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included and it works with universal remotes works great but i replaced it with a stereo vcr paid years ago will sell for delivered obo radio shack stereo amp inputs tone and left and right volume speakers not included plus shipping if you are interested in either of the above mail me at radley gibbs oit unc edu or call me keith at ps i made a type on my email address the first posting it is now correct major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga university of north carolina
misc.forsale	re microsoft dos upgrade for sale adn ritvax isc rit edu writes in article pctnfinn dp eve usc edu yuanchie eve usc edu yuan chieh hsu writes ms dos upgrade for sale best offer over opened unregistered so does anyone care to enlighten us whether dos is worth upgrading to how good is it s compression and can it be turned on off at will any other nice nasty features according to reports if you don t have dos yet and don t have any utilities qemm stacker pctools norton then dos may be worth it for people who have dos and some sort of utility dos doesn t offer much you d never know it from the usual hype that marketing is able to create however tom hatton hatton cgl ucsf edu
misc.forsale	fax via e mail finally a fax service to all internet users in the continental u s without prepayment of any kind this service is provided by information system international based in fishers indiana at isifisher aol com as an internet user your credit has been automatically approved so you can start sending faxes right now how to send a fax to use this service e mail to isifisher aol com in the following format your name your phone number your mailing address the number you send fax to the recipient s name and company the address and phone number of the recipient optional fax content your fax will be sent out within hours every fax will include a standard cover sheet free of charge which contains your name your phone number your address the recipient s name and company upon sending out your fax a receipt will be sent for your record important if this is your first time to use the fax service you must include the following paragraph at the beginning of your e mail i hereby authorize information system international to open a fax account for me i agree to pay all charges incurred upon receiving my monthly bill what format is acceptable only plain ascii format and rich text format rtf are acceptable for plain ascii format times new roman fonts of point size will be used for rtf format your fax document will appear exactly the same as it would appear on your local laser printer in almost all word processing software on pc mackintosh sun workstation etc you can save your document in rtf format how to pay the first time you use our fax service we will open an account for you under your name you will be billed each month if you have a balance or when your balance has been over whichever comes first cost the cost for continental u s excluding hawaii alaska is only for the first page for each additional page each fax will include a cover sheet which is free if you plan to use this service you should save the entire text posted above
misc.forsale	price quote wanted from sam halperin cccbbs uceng dx mhz in zero insertion force socket empty over drive socket eisa motherboard with k cache bit eisa slots bit vesa local bus slots bit isa slots mb ns ram simms sockets filled with mb strips sockets open bit eisa ide hard drive controller meg ide hard disk drive w k cache ms diamond viper weitek vesa local bus graphics card w mb mag mx f monitor serial ns afn uart parralell game ports full tower case watt power supply x bays x bays x hard drive bays mb mb floppy drives enhanced key keyboard hi resolution dpi serial mouse ms dos and ms windows or newer ami bios joint data motherboard day money back gaurantee unconditional year parts warranty lifetime labor warranty one year nationwide on site service this system is currently availble from comtrade the company that won some of the highest over dell gateway and ibm awards in recent pc magazine reviews your price must be highly competitive without sacrificing any of the quality standards listed above please respond to sam halperin cccbbs uceng via e mail
misc.forsale	mfm controller copy card for sale bit mfm fd hd controller b o copy card w software and cable b o can copy any protected software if interested please reply to this account wun chun chau what a crazy world internet wchau eng buffalo edu uucp rutgers uunet cs buffalo edu wchau internet wchau cs buffalo edu bitnet wchau cs buffalo edu ubvm bitnet do you want to die young if you know what i mean
misc.forsale	florida vacation package forsale the package is called sun and sand it includes days nights accommodations in orlando and daytona beach hotels are selected from major hotel chains and family resorts two adults and up to three children fully transferable expires at for extention of one more year it needs a days advance reservation esp for peak season the reservation department will offer a coupon book which may give you saving up to price i bought it for which is a good deal for peak seasons for now i will not turn down any reasonable offers must sell it doesn t include transportation and you have to pay day for hotel tax please e mail your respond
misc.forsale	re your custom resume on disk in article fk zhq uh eb u andrew cmu edu tami grudzinski tg n andrew cmu edu writes your custom resume on disk macintosh or ibm compatible never pay the high cost of copy service again we will completely develop and format your custom resume package and mail you the disk or blah blah blah deleted who s we carnegie mellon
misc.forsale	house for sale mediterranean coast spain mediterranean investment property for sale javea alicante spain costa blanca villa on a large lot in the wooded pine hills above the noise bedrooms living dining room glassed in sun porch kitchen bathroom large lot surrounded by traditional white wall with wrought iron gates room for an in ground pool minutes from the sea and supermarket minutes from town and full amenities area has specially favourable microclimate mentioned in a who climate report seat fiat runabout car years old may be included in the deal ideal for retirement or as a family holiday resort must sell for family reasons asking reply by email or call canada simon curry executive director tele the royal society of canada fax po box ottawa k g j email curry doe carleton ca simon curry tele the royal society of canada fax po box ottawa k g j email curry doe carleton ca
misc.forsale	delay sampler hey i am interested in buying a digital delay pedal preferably capable of sampling and infinite repeat if you re familiar with phil keaggy i want to mimic or at least as close as possible what he does in concert i e click the pedal play something click it again and what he played between clicks repeats infinitely while he playes leads over it anyway let me know jason dietrijj mentor cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	re datman for sale in article bdavisc yum k j netcom com bdavis netcom com bryan davis writes sony tcd d dat walkman for sale hardly used still under warrantee comes with optical digital input output as well as standard rca analog cables includes recharable battery charger and ac adaptor or best offer just to inform the readers of newsrc sony has just introduced a new datman the tcd d which is smaller and less expensive than the d also the d has a coaxial jack which the d lacks oh the d has always been available through mail order houses for less than dollars new with the new model coming out i suspect the now obsolete d will be selling for even less the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
misc.forsale	wanted used audio mixer i m looking for a used inexpensive audio mixer i need at least channels of stereo input and channel of stereo output but i would prefer or more input channels each channel needs to have at least a volume control i ll consider buying broken equipment the mixer needs to be fairly small i haven t got a lot of space for it john lange jlange zippy radian com radian corp box austin tx
misc.forsale	logitech scanman i would like to sell my logitech hand held gray scale scanner i originally bought it as a toy and have no practical use for it hardly ever used it package includes board scan mate software ansel image editing software all original manuals box etc originally bought for in jan selling for if interested let me know hans meyer
misc.forsale	twin size mattress boxsprng frame for sale twin size mattress box spring and frame for sale medico pedic type of mattress excellent condition yrs old well maintained you come and pick it up stuff is located in paloalto asking for contact suresh w h e mail suresh pa dec com o o o o o o o o suresh balasubramanian suresh pa dec com n n dd digital equipment corp
misc.forsale	space rack for sale lower price i am posting this message for a friend of mine who does not have a computer account if you have any questions please call dan at equipment rack for sale space eia rack in carpet covered on wheels shipping
misc.forsale	dj equipment nes carts cordless phone for sale lower prices i have a few things to sell all items are in great condition all prices include shipping if you have any questions contact me by e mail or call me at darryl dj equipment mixer case with pop up rails patch cords meters gold tips records casualties of war inch single eric b rakim get some inch single eyc boo ya tribe black s magic salt pepa heart break new edition the right stuff vanessa williams misc toshiba ft cordless phone books each book is priced as marked microcomputers for management p fuhrman g buck decison making st edition statistics a fresh approach d sanders r eng a murph quantitative approaches to r levin d rubin management j stinson
misc.forsale	for sale u s robotics baud modem obo i am upgrading my computer systems to fax modems and am selling my baud usr modems without fax or error correction one is internal the other is external both are u s robotics the highest rated modem manufacturer add shipping or pick up in the washington dc area offers welcome i would trade either for a x x ns simm john baker
misc.forsale	sale computer misc books rpg stuff etc y in article apr kuhub cc ukans edu jamiller kuhub cc ukans edu writes the following are for sale duh golden image dpi b w hand scanner dpaint iii amiga vision mulitmedia authorizing software baud bandit terminal communication software the bard s tale iii thief of fate graphic rpg f retaliator flight simulator future wars fantasy scifi graphic rpg rvf honda motocycle simulation patlabor ingram and phantom labor models japanese anime models robotech rpg books english the ingrid invasion southern cross battletech books english the fox s teeth exploits of mckinnon s raiders gray death legion mercenary s handbook citytech aerotech mechwarrior ad d books monster manual monster manual ii fiend folio lots of books in japanese and english on subjects of japanese culture asian art history japanese language socio linguistics ethnography linguistics physics calculaus menum and folis unix and amiga programming economics micro macro intl trade finance american economic development and philosophy language ethics cognition science if there s something you think you might be interested in let me know and i ll tell you what i have jamiller kuhub cc ukans edu james miller chicchai sig no ho ga ichiban iin janai ka enlightenment happens jamiller kuhub cc ukans edu james miller chicchai sig no ho ga ichiban iin janai ka enlightenment happens
misc.forsale	intel oo ex modem for sale intel oo baud modem external v v bis very good working condition never had any problems obo leave daytime number for fastest response the kilowatt bbs deer park li ny
misc.forsale	for sale or trade ibm games ibm games for sale or trade o adventure eric the unready legend king s quest v sierra cd rom edition o sports michael jordan in flight electronic arts mike ditka s ultimate football accolade david ledbetter s greens microprose o strategy risk virgin this software comes with all original packaging and manuals price includes ground shipping to continental us i will trade for current games send me your list chris davis ccdavis nuwave b ingr com
misc.forsale	misc stuff for sale misc items for sale walkman aiwa model hs t year old mint condition hardly used autoreverse band equalizer super bass dolby noise reduction am fm tuner paid asking shipping mount plate sony model cpm p mounting plate for sony portable cd players for portable plugs into car lighter snaps onto the bottom of any sony cd player portable cd player perfect condition will also throw in a cassette adapter in so so condition paid asking shipping am fm factory stereo from toyota with am fm radio autoreverse cassette cassette deck digital tuning like new condition only in car months car stereo asking shipping car speakers sherwood two way car speakers in car for months inch excellent condition paid asking shipping inch factory speakers from toyota excellent condition asking shipping nintendo nintendo game boy light boy tetris super mario land gameboy nfl football castlevania adventure hyper lode runner years games old all in working condition asking shipping accessories whole internet the whole internet user s guide and catalog by ed krol book guide to using the internet where to fing information and resources paid asking shipping microsoft never used came with my computer asking shipping visual basic microsoft for windows never used came with my computer quick c sells new student edition for asking shipping please resond to fields cis ohio state edu thanks jonathan d fields
misc.forsale	vacation hi netters i have the following vacation packages for sale bahamas vacation round trip tickets to freeport grand bahamas double occupancy hotel accomodation at per person per night orlando florida las vegas reno lake tahoe vacation one round trip airline ticket from major us airports to the of the above mentioned destinations hotel accomodation for or people for days nights for those who are interested drop me a mail at clim cis ohio state edu
misc.forsale	re shipping costs in article pd e usenet ins cwru edu kxj po cwru edu kijin jung writes in a previous article tomc arezzo oas olivetti com tom carlino says recently i bought a musical instrument through the internet and had it shipped to me via ups ground the shipping was done through a mail box service mailboxes etc being somewhat surprised at the price i compared prices of shipping this way to shipping directly through ups and this is a summary i am not making any endorsements or condemnations but merely presenting the facts from which you may draw your own conclusions i ve encountered the same thing with mailboxes etc and i suggest anyone to use the original ups service if at all possible shipping to virginia from cleveland was around for pounds and c o d was as opposed to for ups i ll third the opinion about this outfit franchise now when i buy over the net and pick up the shipping costs i ll specify that i only pick up the normal ups charges as if delivered directly to ups as i ve been burned by shipping charges for a pkg i will never use a mailing service unless i don t have the right box and the buyer needs whatever immediately i ll also tell the person if they agreed to pick up shipping what is going on other things to watch out for consider the rates are to higher than ups direct for a non ups truck package they quoted a rate of fed ex economy air was only for the same weight rps a trucking package company in many cities only wanted guess who got it the mailbox operator told me i was not telling the truth about competitors rates said rps was unreliable i ve used them before with no problems etc right a cod check goes to the mailing service our local mailbox then takes its sweet time mailing me the remade check all this for an additional over the ups cod charge what a deal for packages over they charge you about double over what ups charges them for insurance i ve never had a claim but other netters is ralph seguin out there have told horror stories about them all package traces have to be done through mailbox by mailbox our local mailbox operator told me i was lying when i asked him why their rates were stratospheric compared to direct ups does he ever check probably not their ups ground rates come close to fed ex s economy air rate and fed ex will pick up ups will pick up for a charge in most areas dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
misc.forsale	heavy metal the magazine for sale not the music i am cleaning out the coffers i have a virtually mint collection of heavy metal magazine this is not a music mag but the really neato mag with giger and moebius artwork et al jam packed with amazing sci fi and fantasy artwork by many masters all are mint with the exception of the that have split seam on the cover only but are otherwise perfect no cut outs or missing pages i have sep nov and dec issues for all issues for and jan thru sep for issues in all i believe i will not break them up they will be sold as a single lot send your offers to me shipping not included these are pretty heavy of course if you are local mass usa you can come get em in person arthur noguerola vos stratus com
misc.forsale	for sale old jazz magazines the following jazz magazines will go for the best offer received shipping not included these are pretty heavy of course if you are local mass usa you can come get em in person all are in great condition these will go as one lot i will not break them up metronome sep feb june nov dec june nov downbeat jan was newspaper sized folded jan feb dec mar apr may may jun jul sep dec dec aug oct oct dec dec jan apr jul sep dec feb feb jun nov apr aug sep oct oct feb mar may jun jul jul aug sep dec may may jun jun jul aug mar mar may may nov also i will toss in free jazz journal feb apr and coda magazine jun dec arthur noguerola vos stratus com
misc.forsale	re cds priced for immediate sale hey now the following cds are still available offers trades considered gowan lost brotherhood katrina the waves break of hearts joe cocker live charles neville diversity thanks rich
misc.forsale	re microsoft dos upgrade for sale in article hatton cgl ucsf edu hatton socrates ucsf edu tom hatton writes adn ritvax isc rit edu writes so does anyone care to enlighten us whether dos is worth upgrading to how good is it s compression and can it be turned on off at will any other nice nasty features according to reports if you don t have dos yet and don t have any utilities qemm stacker pctools norton then dos may be worth it for people who have dos and some sort of utility dos doesn t offer much you d never know it from the usual hype that marketing is able to create however imho it seems to be worth the to upgrade doublespace seems a bit saner than stacker which i ve replaced memmaker is nowhere near as aggressive as qemm but it doesn t hose my system like qemm did at least it hasn t yet microsoft antivirus is just the latest version or a reasonably recent one of cpav mine was very aged so this was quite welcome ms dos ain t the end all be all of operating systems but it s better than a sharp stick in the eye unless you happen to be into that sort of thing lee preimesberger st g jetson uh edu undergraduate scum university of houston usa there is freedom of choice for every choice but mine
misc.forsale	mattel electronics baseball for sale or trade best offer if anyone s still interested i have one mattel electronic game left for sale or trade it s baseball tan case and includes a volt battery and the original manual i was able to sell soccer and basketball for and traded the football game for a genesis cart so i was happy i will entertain all offers cash or genesis carts by the way baseball is in excellent condition and works perfectly thanx in advance dave
misc.forsale	re forsale genesis games kelvin williams kwill lunatix uucp wrote these games are forsale or trade sonic hedgehog ii two copies manuals and cases each brand new hello i am interested in sonic ii but when i send to the address below i get mail bounced back with host unknow error please reply to kwill lunatix uucp subject games paul wood pcwood astro ocis temple edu
misc.forsale	tech books for sale cheap someone please buy these books i am not asking much liquidation send me your offer no reasonable offer refused first come first served i just want to get rid of these books just make me an offer calculus w analytic geometry by authur b simon copyright date below avg condition but still readable give me shipping incl and its yours writing good software in fortran graham smith shipp incl general chemistry principles modern applications r petrucci fourth edition big book this book following books for all solutions manual for chemistry book study guide for chemistry book send me your offers via email at chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	items for sale items for sale howard miller clock it chimes like a grandfather clock painting a tiger in the snow it is a beautiful painting the tiger looks like it can jump off of the canvas and get you mens diamond ring size a rows of diamonds b k gold call or email me donald walker hm wk
misc.forsale	no more rolex imitations jammer dit is geen fantastische advertentie over nep rolexen maar een evenzo duidelijke mededeling hieromtrent aangezien het alleen al aanbieden van deze horloges onder vermelding van de echte merknaam niet geheel correct is wil ik met dit bericht duidelijk maken dat ik marcel engelbertink niet meer zal adverteren met imitatie horloges van het merk rolex enig persoon die hierin geiinteresseerd is kan ik jammer genoeg ook niet meer helpen for all the foreign people who can t even understand dutch in spite of earlier mailing about fake rolex s i announce that i don t have any information available any longer and i won t use the trade name rolex anymore for those fake models yours fakefully m g engelbertink
misc.forsale	mazda glc for sale want to sell a mazda glc for or b o excellent working condition just passed inspection has a sun roof no marks on body contact soon kohli ecs umass edu or kohli
misc.forsale	irwin owners don t miss this deal on tapes irwin suggests the use of pre formatted tapes for their tape drives as you often can t successfully format a tape and need bulk erase it before you can format it again anyway i have some new preformatted tapes for irwin tape drives irwin accutrak series mb ea new never used m dc rhomat format ea wraped email if interested feng the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
misc.forsale	gameboy games trade for genesis game gear or gameboy games uupdate i have the following gameboy games available for trade pitfighter metroid ii bases loaded blades of steel malibu beach volleyball world cup soccer tennis spiderman robocop motocross maniacs double dribble on basketball looking for genesis games missile command gameboy game gear games please leave e mail if interested thanx dave webb p s i m still waiting to hear from allen thoren jr about trading mb volleyball for missile command please get in touch also waiting to hear from raul rombh cunyvm cuny edu about genesis trade
misc.forsale	web of spiderman auction update web of spiderman auction list issues annuals this set will be auctioned as a complete set if there is enough interest the books have been quickly evaluated for grade all books are vf to nm unless noted below these were ascertained when putting the books into new bags with boards books per bag small dinks in spine spine slightly rolled small crease in front cover dinks in spine slight tear edge front cover spine dinged up cover pages crinkled from humidity crinkled form water damage cover not flat shipping smudge on cover spine dinked up small dinks in spine spine dinks tiny crease top left corner of cover dinks in spine paper clip mark small spine dinks slight spine roll spine dinks back cover crease cover wrinkled annual slight spine roll cover marks current high bid bidder jon jon tivoli the successful bidder assuming there is one will have the books sent ups cod cash or money order will be added to the total successful bid to cover these charges so bid accordingly thanks mike
misc.forsale	nintendo games and control deck forsale nintendo control deck with two controllers and gun one controller has grips attached the nes will only connect to a composite monitor or tv with audio and video rca input jacks and needs some repairs or best offer games for sale tecmo baseball techmo bowl double dribble wayne gretzky hockey golf super mario duck hunt super mario ii super mario iii teenage mutant ninja turtles the arcade game megaman toobin spelunker tecmo super bowl total i ll give all of them to you for the best offer and throw in the control deck i ll also accept the best offer for each of the games individually the oldest of these is two years old most of them are less than a year old email at tligman andy bgsu edu phone at tom warning signature under construction enter at your own risc
misc.forsale	preamp and cd player forsale in ma forsale proton p preamplifier about years old originally asking or best offer has inputs for tape tape cd phono video and tuner separate listen and record selectors bass eq subharmonic filter and mono switch high quality volume potentiometer in excellent condition with original boxes and manual sony d portable diskman this is the one designed to play the mini cd s you can play normal size cds but the disk sticks out the side works well but may skip occasionally it should be tuned up heads aligned cleaned etc in excellent condition it has not been used all that much with carrying case original list was i think but i ll take or best offer it would be good for an office or just to sit on your desk please email me eric enterprise bih harvard edu or telephone at eric eric j hansen eric enterprise bih harvard edu center for clinical computing boston ma dos mac programming ultrix administration general chaos
misc.forsale	re heavy metal the magazine for sale not the music in article prs t eqp transfer stratus com arthur noguerola vos stratus com writes i am cleaning out the coffers i have a virtually mint collection of heavy metal magazine this is not a music mag but the really neato mag with giger and moebius artwork et al jam packed with amazing sci fi and fantasy artwork by many masters all are mint with the exception of the that have split seam on the cover only but are otherwise perfect no cut outs or missing pages i have sep nov and dec issues for all issues for and jan thru sep for issues in all i believe i will not break them up they will be sold as a single lot send your offers to me shipping not included these are pretty heavy of course if you are local mass usa you can come get em in person arthur noguerola vos stratus com if you send offers to this guy keep in mind that you can get mint back issues from the publisher for plus shipping all except the very first or three issues
misc.forsale	computer stuff for sale for sale in the baltimore dc area one mac x with radius bit color dual page display and adapter microtek z color scanner qms colorscript color postscript printer baud modem dyanfile with k and meg floppies software packages including pagemaker quark express style photoshop etc obo one compaq lte with internal modem and meg ram hard drive obo one compaq slt with meg ram and meg hard drive obo one compaq n motherboard only make an offer this has just returned from compaq service six muxes with baud modems built in make an offer s cpu from a multi user turbodos system offer contact elliott office home or delliott digex com internet
misc.forsale	humminbird depth sounder forsale hi i have a humminbird hdr depth sounder for sale it has been used for season on my sailboat all parts are included as well as the installation instructions it is even packed in the original box it came in there is no damage to the unit or the transducer in fact the transducer was mounted inside the hull in a piece of pipe glued to the hull so it led a sheltered life the transducer can be mounted either inside the hull as i did or on the transom it cannot be placed in a hole drilled into your hull it is fully waterproof and fits into a hole in a bulkhead that s where i had it installed or into a standard dashboard on a powerboat it reads depth to and has a backlit lcd display it has an adjustable shallow water alarm built in i am changing out my instruments to another manufacturer that outputs the nmea information this little depth sounder works fine and is very stable it is usually priced as low as in some catalogs i paid the first takes it or best offer john r miller catalina tinker toy
misc.forsale	south jersey condo i have recently graduated and am looking to move into a bigger house leaving me with a condo to sell it was originally listed at but is now listed at the following is a list of features master bedroom x bedroom x living room x dining room x kitchen x w extra cabinets full modern bathroom full wtw carpeting new excluding bath oil hot water heating converting to gas this summer central air condo fee mo including heat hot water landscaping pool tennis courts in addition washer dryer both in condo refrigerator dishwasher ceiling fans all window treatments i don t understand why i can t call them curtains and a mantle large storage room in private basement plenty of undesignated parking if you d like to free me for the bliss of regular homeownership please call kathleen sullivan at the rohrer sayers real estate agency she ll arrange for a showing off now for that disclaimer caca subject to errors changes ommissions withdrawls and sales without notice this posting is not to benefit or at the request of any commercial agency i simply want out flames can be sent to dev null thanks pnelson clam rutgers edu paul g nelson systems hardware integration technician
misc.forsale	software unlimited sorry to waste the bandwidth does anyone know a software mail order company called software unlimited i ordered a software from them and they charged my credit card but never did send the package to me i call them many times but nobody answer the phone i also check computer shoppers and found they don t advertise anymore if you know if they are still in business or you know how to contact them please tell me thank you very much ching tze su
misc.forsale	incredible car incredible price my brother is preparing to pay another year of college expenses and asked me to post this alfa romeo gold milano model v engine power everything seats comfortably looks runs great o b o contact brian wall if interested dallas area
misc.forsale	laser printer forsale repost the following is posted for a friend you can send replies to this email address or call him at glen i have a citizen overture laser printer for sale it is in excellent condition it has been used less than one year on this drum i am asking but all offers will be considered below are some specs on it toner lifespan pages drum lifespan pages resolution dpi memory k emulation epson fx ibm proprinter diablo printing capacity quad density graphics tray capacity sheets reason for sale financial i need to pay tuition thanks glen anderson bigelos hobo ece orst edu
misc.forsale	cds for sale the following are available for each includes postage if in usa ted nugent penetrator jah wobble rising above bedlam black ep marshall tucker band long hard ride kid frost east side story coffin break thirteen steve wariner band i got dreams
misc.forsale	novice beekeeper seeks tools of trade if you d like to find a home for that beekeeping equipment you ll never use again here s a likely victim uh customer to make a deal call laura forbes during regular business hours or respond to me through e mail and i ll pass your message along
misc.forsale	reciever cd player keyboards for sale the following items are for sale onkyo tx reciever amplifier only months old perfect condition wpc stereo speaker ability channel memory has digital and direct tuning also plus it also have an earphone jack bought for new asking for no less than best offer gets it obviously price dropped to no offers so far what s the deal no recievers needed two zeos ibm external keyboards under a month old bought for each new selling for a piece or for both i pay shipping snes has been sold and the cd player still hasn t been sold if you offer or more i will instantly send it to you ask for stats on the cd player yoshi yoshi atlantis cs orst edu
misc.forsale	altec lansing subwoofers for sale the headline says it all oh god i hope it works oh god i hope it works damn i should have know that rf stood for rarely functional arlo georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia aude internet gt a prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	wanted summer sublease in washington dc i ll be spending this summer in washington dc working in bowie md does anyone have a summer sublease that they d like to unload i ll be in the area from about may august please mail me any pertinent info at kimgh mentor cc purdue edu thanks in advance gene
misc.forsale	diamond stealth bit svga for sale brand new still shrink wraped stealth for sale plus shipping and cod specifications based on s bit coporcessor x x hz ni x x k ni x x million ni system requires or based isa or vesa vl bus with fast turbowindows drivers for and other drivers for other popular softwares like wp microsoft word lotus autocad yj
misc.forsale	tektronix scope for sale tektronix scope for sale mhz bandwidth portable not one of the xx series boatanchors delayed sweep works fine i don t have the manual they are available from various places no probes shipping email me for more info regards keith keith kanoun wa q kdk radio nl nuwc navy mil
misc.forsale	video title maker for sale videonics title maker system about monthes old used only once includes character generator model tm rez x available chars fonts stereo sound over a million different colors available special effects full keyboard design mail me for more details thums up video editor model tu marks differnent sections of tape as thumbs up or thumbs down so you can skip the bad parts on tape built in video enhancer for copying tapes or viewing them automatic fader switchable use in combination w the above unit both units in excellent condition comes with all docs unregistered warranty cards j r music world sells these for and respectively i am asking for both units email me at pchang ic sunysb edu if you are interested c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu s ense state university of new york stony brook e ngineer
misc.forsale	info on ultrastor hd controller wanted hi netters does anyone know have any info on the ultrastor line of controller i m especially interested in the f and f scsi controllers please email any info asap i m building a system and that s one of the few conponents that is missing thanks tri
misc.forsale	box of chemicals for sale i m selling worth of chemicals for or i ll split it in two for dollars apeice aprox oz bottles will make a great chem set will pay shipping up to if really interested i will mail a partial list please contact by e mail only omar
misc.forsale	engagement ring give up diamond engagement ring k gold band point diamond appraised at dollars will sell for dollars appraisal available upon request send e mail to yb uafhp uark edu
misc.forsale	re for sale quicken for the pc in article pma hpk suntan ec usf edu boneham sunburn ec usf edu kevin boneham ch writes in article pgvp inn ej phakt usc edu khoh usc edu oliver muoto writes i have for sale quicken pc version that allows you to balance i assume you get new releases earlier than we do here last i saw version was the latest he is probably referring to the dos version the dos versions is up to like version i think the window version just came out recently so it is only up to like version or something c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu s ense state university of new york stony brook e ngineer
misc.forsale	re computer parts camcorder in article c z cf n cscns com zardox cscns com randie o neal writes mb and drives new planned on building machine but ran out of funds each drive carl what brand of drives are these do you have documentation i ll go shipping if you have documentation do not pay for floppy drives they are about new also you do not need documentation for floppies installation for these things are idiot proof just some advice c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu s ense state university of new york stony brook e ngineer
misc.forsale	re microsoft dos upgrade for sale in article hatton cgl ucsf edu hatton socrates ucsf edu tom hatton writes adn ritvax isc rit edu writes in article pctnfinn dp eve usc edu yuanchie eve usc edu yuan chieh hsu writes ms dos upgrade for sale best offer over opened unregistered so does anyone care to enlighten us whether dos is worth upgrading to how good is it s compression and can it be turned on off at will any other nice nasty features according to reports if you don t have dos yet and don t have any utilities qemm stacker pctools norton then dos may be worth it for people who have dos and some sort of utility dos doesn t offer much you d never know it from the usual hype that marketing is able to create however i installed dos last week and had nothing but trouble afterwards windows apps are hitting protection faults more than a kid can do to a pinata and it does not seem to like to work with ndos norton dos other probs include set pcplus d pcplus for procomm plus no longer works many of the little utilities to written for dos no longer works either mostly shareware i now have uninstalled dos and dos works just fine are there any apps that dos will be able to run that dos wont c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu s ense state university of new york stony brook e ngineer
misc.forsale	food coupons looking to save money i am your man i will mail you in food coupons for only or you will get twice the dollar amount of coupons so mail and get dollars in coupons sounds like a great deal well it is send sase to s elizabeth st salt lake city utah enclose money in form of a money order personally i would not trust a person to send coupons after money is sent well let me earn your trust send dollar and i ll send you your in store coupons then we ll talk more e mail enquiries to yb uafhp uark edu thank you john schiefer
misc.forsale	casio digital diary for sale casio digital diary electronic organizer sf k ram will hold approxmiately names phone numbers big line display year visible calendar schedule function memo bank telephone name number address storage calculator compact folding design fits in your pocket the above for it was originally purchased for over mail to gsfever okcforum osrhe edu if interested price does not include shipping
misc.forsale	re psychnet in article pfg innk skeena ucs ubc ca okabe unixg ubc ca ian okabe writes electronic networking for psychnet com professional psychology serving psychologists sychnet world wide whats with this psychnet thing its on just about everyones s posting no matter where they post from its getting very annoying ian t okabe okabe unixg ubc ca atmospheric sciences university of british columbia vancouver canada it s an experiment place a not so subliminal slightly cagey message in front of a viewer and see how long it takes to create a response and what was the response it was the same thing with the blow me message only it had a quicker response time and some unexpected responses along with the expectedly negative ones anyone see how long that took yours in jest tom t tom testagrossa e mail ttesta kali enet dec com us mail clarendon st apt fitchburg ma u s a phone work voicemail home ask me about my guitars
misc.forsale	parametric eq car hifonics ceres band parametric equalizer specs bands hz hz khz hz khz boost cut db thd less than size wxhxd mmx mmx mm this eq has three variable bands as indicated above with variable q it also has a subwoofer output with variable cutoff frequency i originally paid for the unit and used it for months before selling the car it is in excellent condition with all the wiring and hardware intact and manual in original box asking price holmertz pops navo navy mil
misc.forsale	dodge wagon for sale to dodge dart collectors i have a dodge th anniversary dart ci v wagon to turn into cash my asking price is although we can negotiate the car currently resides in union city california thats on the east side of the san francisco bay area in the state of california of the united states of america on the continent of north america of the planet earth third planetary body out from sol a mid range yellowish star in the western spiral arm of the milkyway galaxy toowhit north of silicon valley if interested pleas contact scott by the following means internet sbrogii tymnet com home answering machine business voice mail loud yell wave money out the window not recommended in downtown urban environment ps i also have a bmw r for sale
misc.forsale	macintosh ii cx for sale macintosh ii cx with mb hd mb ram and monochrome monitor ikegami is for sale asking no reasonable best offer will be rejected contact konrad at m mon frii
misc.forsale	for sale tr and mirage rack mount sampler for sale roland tr drum machine near mint condition no scratches fully operational sorry no manuals asking us shipping mirage rack mount sampler minor scratches around rack ear screws with advanced sampling option disks and both manuals it s a long story but i may have the turtle beach vision sample editing software for the ibm pc asking us shipping send all e mail requests to barsz bnr ca regards peter a barszczewski barsz bnr ca spirituality through technology bell northern research ltd montreal canada
misc.forsale	ms excel sdk for sale i have the following for sale absolutely new i won it at a raffle and have no use for it microsoft excel software development kit version for ms windows and the apple macintosh contains a page book by microsoft press floppy disks containing software sample code a poster of the api calls etc orig price is us i would like to sell it for the highest offer over shipping please email reply to attmail akachhy thanks avinash kachhy
misc.forsale	answering machine phone panasonic phone with answering machine looks like a brand new all basic answering machine function phone number memory recall function year old asking for interest please call me at alex choe
misc.forsale	chicago area roommate needed evanston non smoking roommate needed to sublet br in br carpeted apt in evanston il near the dempster el stop parking is available rent is mo utils avail may beg end aug entire apt available sept roommate is years old vegetarian non smoking female who works at northwestern no neat freaks please call denise w h dc nwu edu
misc.forsale	new cd disk s for cd disk users this is not a commercial ad i have alot of new cd disks if you have a cdrom and are interested in purchasing some of these disks please download the list mentioned below cd night owl s v download the file cdromcat zip or the freq the magic name of catalog craig landgraf buckwheats pleasure dome internet usenet landgraf p f n z fidonet org podnet fidonet itcnet kinknet sganet bbs number p s if you send me email with your home address i will mail you a list to your house the list is pages long this is if you do not have a computer that you can call and get the list faster
misc.forsale	forsale drum things cheap north heavy duty hi hat stand older stand but definately in working shape could use a little clean up comes with clutch and felts etc pearl bass drum pedal with felt beater honer cymbal stand needs some work on cymbal stem zildjian ride cymbal main line zildjian older ride cymbal ludwig snare stand okay snare stand not like a remo though shipping extra please email stephen m jones sdf system administrator smj sdf lonestar org cs e
misc.forsale	monitor add on card apple iie computer i need to sell the following items an apple iie computer includes baud modem columns zenith green monitor tons of software and manuals controller i o card a western digital wdat includes winchester controller floppy controller serial ports parallel port no docs but jumper settings are printed on the card an aamazing x dot pitch svga monitor interlaced unlimited colors includes documentation power cord and connecting cable must sell these items by may make me an offer on any of them cliff kaminsky cliff engin umich edu
misc.forsale	hewlett packard deskjet inkjet printer for sale for sale hewlett packard deskjet inkjet printer o perfect condition both internally and externally o comes with two full ink cartridges o less than six months old o comes with all original packaging manuals cables and software this is truly an excellent printer and is the low cost alternative to a laser printer it prints with the quality of a laser printer but for a fraction of both the inital cost and he long term cost that is replacement of ink cartridges as opposed to replacement of toner the printer prints at a maximum of d ots p er i nch d p i on many different types and sizes of paper including envelopes and transperencies printer prints in both landscape and portrait modes printer can accept up to two cartridges giving it things like more memory or additional fonts printer works excellently with windows and dos and brings truetype to its full potential i originally purchased the printer for make me an offer but i would prefer to stay in the range i will pay the shipping to anywhere in the continental u s a if you are interested please either leave me email or call kirk peterson at anytime thanks p s the printer will work with any computer that can accept a standard parallel or serial connection that is ibm amiga etc
misc.forsale	word processing utilities for sale these word processing utilities all include complete printed manuals and registration cards i need to get rid of some excess they re the latest versions i ve priced these programs at less than half the list price and significantly less than the cheapest mail order price around grammatik for windows top rated grammar checker helps you improve your writing by correcting grammar and usage mistakes now owned by wordperfect list sale grammatik for dos top rated grammar checker helps you improve your writing by correcting grammar and usage mistakes now owned by wordperfect list sale correct grammar for windows top notch grammar checker from wordstar list sale correct grammar for dos top notch grammar checker from wordstar list sale correct writing for windows online writing manual from wordstar with tips about correct use of punctuation capitalization compound words numerals bibliographies footnotes and more list sale random house webster s electronic dictionary thesaurus for windows unlike spell checkers provides online definitions when you re not sure of a word s meaning also has larger thesaurus than most word processors for finding just the right word list sale random house webster s electronic dictionary thesaurus for dos same functionality as windows version list sale word finder plus for windows huge online thesaurus with more than one million synonyms list sale random house encyclopedia for dos online encyclopedia that you can use without needing a cd rom drive easier to use and less expensive than a book based encyclopedia takes mb of hard disk space list sale headliner dos based database of great advertising and other headlines proverbs idioms song titles movie titles and so on great for advertising copywriters newspaper editors and others trying to come up with catchy phrases list sale writer s toolkit for windows amazing collection of seven different word processing utilities in one package includes encyclopedia great quotations dictionary of abbreviations dictionary with definitions thesaurus usage guide and grammar checker list sale if you re interested in any of these programs please phone me at philadelphia and i ll save the package for you reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha pa us
misc.forsale	utilities for sale these utilities all include complete printed manuals and registration cards i need to get rid of some excess they re the latest versions i ve priced these programs at less than half the list price and significantly less than the cheapest mail order price around pc tools for dos best selling utilities collections includes dos shell antivirus program backup program disk defragger memory optimizer remote communications link data protection and recovery utilities appointment book address book and more list sale norton backup for dos supports dos tape backup systems and lans twice as fast as backup in dos highly automated and customizable list sale qaplus top rated dos based systems diagnostics program more comprehensive than anything included in dos windows or utilities collections invaluable for determining sources of problems with ram video drives ports keyboard motherboard joystick mouse speaker and so on list sale if you re interested in any of these programs please phone me at philadelphia and i ll save the package for you reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha pa us
misc.forsale	os etc for sale these packages all include complete printed manuals and registration cards i need to get rid of some excess they re the latest versions i ve priced these programs at less than half the list price and significantly less than the cheapest mail order price around os can run windows dos and os programs superior stability compared to windows list sale norton commander for os provides better file management than os does alone graphical tree and file list drag and drop launch apps from customizable menu list sale if you re interested in any of these programs please phone me at philadelphia and i ll save the package for you reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha pa us
misc.forsale	new software for sale these programs all include complete printed manuals and registration cards i need to get rid of some excess they re the latest versions i ve priced these programs at less than half the list price and significantly less than the cheapest mail order price around microsoft entertainment pack volume one includes eight different windows based games including tetris taipei minesweeper tictactics golf cruel pegged and idlewild list sale just joking for windows database of jokes from wordstar can quickly find jokes for many different occasions useful for business writers speechwriters presenters and others more than jokes under topics can search by keyword and author list sale humor processor dos based database of jokes requires only kb of ram along with thousands of categorized jokes you can quickly find also includes an online tutorial for writing your own jokes with proven comedy forumulas list sale history of the world multimedia cd rom covering cave society to the present includes recordings of famous speeches from churchhill gandi and others list sale if you re interested in any of these programs please phone me at philadelphia and i ll save the package for you reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha pa us
misc.forsale	for sale waxworks pc game for sale waxworks by horrorsoft accolade by the same folks who brought you elvira i ii i played elvira i ii and think that horrorsoft has finally made a very playable game with waxworks the look and feel is roughly the same as in the elvira games though the real time fighting is a little easier to survive the first two games especially elvira ii jaws of cerberus made it very tough to stay alive and hit point restoring was very difficult this is not to say that waxworks is a walk in the park but it is quite fair in that there is always some weapon to be found that is quite effective or hint given as to the proper fighting strategy in one of the four wax works to be explored there is no fighting at all well almost none though all four contain moderately challanging puzzles the really interesting thing about this game is that it is really broken up into four seperate rpgs one for each of the four exhibits you must enter in starting each one your character is transported with no objects to use and experience level one exhibits traps you inside a multi level ancient egyptian pyramid which you must escape by fighting mapping and puzzle solving another exhibit traps you in a mine that has been taken over by creeping plant vines and pods while the local humans have been transformed into plant zombies this is a single level maze that requires you to rescue some humans kill the head plant alien and figuere out how to kill the very tuff plant zombies that are always showing up this is perhaps the most horrifying exhibit another exhibit puts you into jack the ripper england where you appear by the corpse of a fresh ripper victim and of course the police think you are responsible you must avoid police and angry mobs to unravel the mystery of the ripper and meet him face to face but first get a disquise the last exhibit pus you in a graveyard where most of the challenge is in learning to stop the almost indestructible zombies over all the vga graphics and music are very effective in setting a creepy tone for the game as was the case for the elvira games though gameplay is much improved and makes for a much more enjoyable game i heartily recommend it for rpg and horror fans all prices include shipping all games are in excellent condition unless otherwise stated us buyers only please all games will be shipped inside a box with packing insured priority usps all games include all original materials including box manual disks and registration unless otherwise noted the first responder offering asking price is guarenteed to get the game those just asking questions get no priority until they offer to buy the game lower offers may be considered assuming no other offers at asking price are made sam bauer hewlett packard co network test division smb col hp com colorado springs co
misc.forsale	zeos daughterboard of upgradeable for sale trade hi folks i have a daughter board for zeos which i want to upgrade to or so send me mail with you offer if you are selling or zeos daughterboard willing to buy my zeos daughterboard thanks murli murli ram murli cubix ent ohiou edu next mail ohio university murli bobcat ent ohiou edu athens
misc.forsale	re metal powder steel iron i just love these posts from the ex soviet union among the cars dinette sets video cameras etc every now and then an ad pops up for bee venom red oxide of mercury cobalt tons minimum order etc don t they have garage sales in russia
misc.forsale	printer paper tray i have a hewlett packard laserjet series ii paper tray for sale its letter size brand new in the box and never used i m asking bought new at ballard computer for please reply to jeffo at spooge u washington edu or
misc.forsale	squaw lift tickets available for each posting for a friend i do not have these tickets interested parties can call john at for more information there are three lift tickets and they are good for anytime this season at squaw valley ski resort doug fierro uts system software o case tools development fierro uts amdahl com
misc.forsale	for sale toyota pickup please do not respond directly to this account for sale blue toyota pickup truck with white blazer topper am fm casette a c cruise control great for camping trips new brakes master brake cylinder michelin tires shocks maintenance free battery clutch windshield wipers well maintained with all toyota parts all repairs done at the dealers very little rust body in good shape k miles asking if interested please contact ursula fritsch umf gene com please do not respond directly to this account rob mcnicholas technical computing services ee cs u c berkeley robm eecs berkeley edu voice fax
misc.forsale	chemicals for sale the chemicals are gone thanks for all the response omar
misc.forsale	re printing in article apr sarah albany edu me albnyvms bitnet writes advertises his printing business oh dear let me be the first on my block you have just violated one of the major shibboleths of the usenet groups you re not supposed to use a newsgroup to plug your own commercial enterprise of any kind people frequently get flamed for announcing they ve got a new book out i don t know whether this is an official usenet rule or just a long standing custom and it doesn t make much difference from a practical point of view so please don t do it again and all you others who are even now taking keyboard in hand to flame him off the face of the earth lay off he didn t know any better he does now dorothy j heydt uc berkeley cozzlab garnet berkeley edu disclaimer ucb and the cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my opinions and in fact i don t think they know i have any
misc.forsale	re catalog of hard to find pc enhancements repost andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes in article c elme z unix portal com jdoll shell portal com joe doll wr the catalog of personal computing tools for engineers and scien tists lists hardware cards and application software packages for pc xt at ps class machines focus is on engineering and scien tific applications of pcs such as data acquisition control design automation and data analysis and presentation if you would like a free copy reply with your u s postal mailing address don t bother it never comes it s a cheap trick for building a mailing list to sell if my junk mail flow is any indication andy sent his address months ago perhaps we can get portal to nuke this weasal i never received a catalog either if that person doesn t respond to a growing flame then we can assume that we yall look forward to lotsa junk mail i don t want him nuked i want him to be honest the junk mail has been much more interesting than the promised catalog if i d known what i was going to get i wouldn t have hesitated i wouldn t be surprised if there were other folks who looked at the ad and said nope but who would be very interested in the junk mail that results similarly there are people who wanted the advertised catalog who aren t happy with the junk they got instead the folks buying the mailing lists would prefer an honest ad and so would the people reading it andy
misc.forsale	attention all neo geo owners read this hello neo geo owners and non owners who couldn t resist the title i was wondering if any of you out there want to trade or sell games i mean buying them from the stores can get kinda expensive is a little too much to be spending on each game but ahh the quality now i can get them for about but that s still a lot right now i have crossed swords magician lord baseball stars fatal fury nam i am interested in buying more titles if any of you have any interesting trade ideas please let me know thanks tom tomcat leland stanford edu
misc.forsale	pressure meter heise model a pressure meter this is a precision digit meter measuring psi absolute in psi increments case is in extremely good shape and can be used as a stand alone meter or panel mounted brass fitting looks like standard on back operates from vac i d like for it or make an offer it is a lot more useful to a lab than as an ersatz barometer which is what i ve been using it for dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
misc.forsale	cheap airline ticket to l a wanted cheap airline ticket to l a on april tuesday from indi or chicago and return about in days wanted please phone or mail to chenmin sage cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	mother board for sale for sale dx motherboard for sale excellent condition less than one year old k cache expandable to k ram expandable to mb ami bios need to sell upgrading asking neg contact jared martin at or email at jaredjma mentor cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	shawnee on delaware poconos pa timeshare week for sale second week of january prime ski season at one of the largest poconos ski areas just north of allentown condo sleeps depending on how friendly you all are has hot tub deck easy access to parking lot and shuttle to slopes condo is a few miles from the slopes cost obro price based on what we paid for it used also and current market richr the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
misc.forsale	wanted tablehockey games hello i am looking for the coleco tablehockey games that were popular in the s the games that i seek have straight slots for the defenseman not the s shaped slots the players are attatched to rods operated with springs if you have a game or games that you would be willing to part with please send me an e mail message at u uicvm uic edu price is negotiable and i would also cover shipping if you are out of state i am part of a league that plays on a regular basis the cthl the chicago table hockey league and need a game to practice on also the league itself is always interested in purchasing games to expand itself thank you ken harris equipment to expand it s size
misc.forsale	re squaw lift tickets available for each tickets midweek are now down to they will be starting last week in april or maybe first week in may by the way the current conditions was there apr are great for spring skiing with excellent coverage most stuff open and no lift lines andrei
misc.forsale	bmw i for sale bmw i the original four door sports sedan arctic blue metallic with gold alloy plus wheels rial goodyear eagle gt racing tires mud snow rated liter hp fuel injected engine w stahl headers adjustable gas shocks all around koni byk speed stick wheel power disc brakes sunroof ps ac listen up installed hidden speaker stereo w subwoofer k miles yet much better condition than most cars w k meticulously maintained all records k mi oil changes faded paint on top otherwise excellent exterior and interior the car has required no major repair work in the more than ten years i have owned it it has never failed to start or broken down even in the coldest weather this has been an extraordinarily reliable and economical car and shows every sign of staying that way yet it is an absolute thrill to drive when you take it to secluded twisty mountain road i sell it now reluctantly since i just succumbed to the convertible craving and bought a new miata obo rich fozzard or richard fozzard serendipity empowers univ of colorado cires noaa r e fs broadway boulder co fozzard fsl noaa gov or
misc.forsale	madison wi summer sublet downtown furnished summer sublet may thru aug great location at n frances st johnson st across witte near nitty gritty near howard johnson near state street near south east dorms near university square near serf two bedroom your own spacious room the larger laundry available parking available bathroom kitchen large closet dual desks just pay for electricity month asking for whole summer send inquiries to howard moy cae wisc edu howard howard moy
misc.forsale	moving sale for sale dining table wooden with chairs dining table scandinavian style steel desk free if interested please call hemant betrabet
misc.forsale	sega genesis for sale w sonic month old sega genesis barely used one controller in original box with sonics and gets the whole bundle shipped to you turns out they re not as addictive when they re yours anyway mail me if you re interested in this marvel of modern technology andrew boyko aboyko dixie com
misc.forsale	kawai k way el cheapo buy or be sorry etc etc gotta pay my well bill eating is of mere passing interest in comparison kawai k synthesizer for if you act now cash only pleeze take delivery in berkeley call and leave name and number for me to call back and arrange this marvelous feast offer expires soon how soon soon believe it act now thank you for your support wheeze
misc.forsale	sipps memory forsale sipps for sale i have sipps for sale i upgraded a few systems memory so i don t need these no more they are x sipps ns x sipps ns meg total all for or meg for note sipps are gernally more expensive then simms these sipps are in good working condition buyer pay shipping handling if interested reply to minh wpi wpi edu minh pham e mail minh wpi wpi edu worcester polytechnical institute
misc.forsale	sale software packages pcanywhere antivirus deltagraph hello i have three software packages for sale the norton pcanywhere version for dos this software include host and remote software it can control both dos and windows both standard and enhanced modes activities registration card is enclosed price the norton antivirus for windows and dos version it can update virus information any time it also support networks registration card is enclosed price deltagraph professional for windows this is the best graphics presentation program i have ever seen registration card is enclosed reg price price thank you for your attention anthony lai
misc.forsale	books for sale cheap hi everyone here are some books for sale all prices are negotiable shipping fee is not included signals and systems alexander p poularik and samuel seely pws kent publisher old price new price probability an introduction samuel goldberg dover publisher old price new price digital image processing and computer vision r schalkoff wiley publisher old price new price digital image processing r gonzalz and p wintz addison wesley publisher old price new price sold x window system user guide for x r o reilly associate the best book of ms dos alan simpson sams old price new price elements of modern algebra hu holden day publisher old price new price symmetries asymmetries and the world of particles t d lee washington publisher old price new price elementary particles and the laws of physics the dirac memorial lectures cambridge publisher old price new price a brief history of time stephen w hawking bantam books paperback old price new price robert chong department of mechanical engineering the ohio state university email cychong magnus acs ohio state edu
misc.forsale	fax modem card wanted i am looking out for an inexpensive fax modem card for pc if you have one to sell please e mail gulshan garg thssgkg iitmax iit edu h
misc.forsale	unix pc software for sale greetings here is a list of items for the b which i am selling dbase iii full dbase iii multiuser development runtime for b microsoft basic interpreter gives megabytes ram available microsoft word full featured mouse based multiuser word processor microsoft multiplan nice multiuser spreadsheet program gss chart nice graphical program for creating business charts lpi c a robust c compiler i ll throw in lpi debug single step alter vars at t electronic mail very nice office based front end to mail i ll take or best offer for the whole bunch i bought all of these new in and paid over for these excellent programs i d rather sell them together but don t hesitate to make me an offer for one i d consider possible trades i m interested in the following b hardware ethernet card with or without software tape backup external expansion unit upgraded p motherboard or just info on who can do the p upgrades icus nd hard drive upgrade kit at t bct or terminals with the unixpc style keyboard make me an offer bob ames bob crl com ps i can get unix pcs with m drives and m motherboards loaded with m cnews smail trn rn elm nethack gzip hdb and a couple other things for about each plus shipping let me know if you re interested pps priam d m hard drives exactly same as maxtor but faster are on sale for thru a vendor in la number not handy write for info this is a very good price for these drives the largest fastest hds available for the unix pc note to fully use the entire m you ll need the p motherboard upgrade who does these and a wd
misc.forsale	re metal powder steel iron in article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes xref nntpd cxo dec com misc invest misc forsale path nntpd cxo dec com pa dec com e big mko dec com uvo dec com news crl dec com deccrl caen zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com portal cup portal com mmm from mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson newsgroups misc invest misc forsale subject re metal powder steel iron message id cup portal com date thu apr pdt organization the portal system tm references acpdgohawa commed msk su lines i just love these posts from the ex soviet union among the cars dinette sets video cameras etc every now and then an ad pops up for bee venom red oxide of mercury cobalt tons minimum order etc don t they have garage sales in russia it really doesn t strike me as very funny it is rather indicative of what a crisis their economy is in i imagine they are in desparate need of markets to sustain industries and people which are nolonger under central control of the government jim rosenkranz rosen kranz enet dec com never try to teach a pig to sing it can t be done and it annoys the pig
misc.forsale	soft contact lens cleaning unit heater my girlfriend switched to gas permeable hard lenses and no longer needs a one year old soft contact lens cleaning unit it s one of those where you pop in the lens case filled with solution and the lenses press the lighted timer button and let it cook no stains of course if you ve owned one of these you understand maybe a little dust on the cover best cash offer or equivalent worth in used cd s or betamax tapes some blanks or a couple of pre recorded movies concerts gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
misc.forsale	forsale dynakit pas x tube pre amp dynakit pas x for sale it s a pure tube pre amp using two ax s in phono stage and also two ax s in line stage one x is used in power supply clean in and out neat workmanship works fine with good sound owner s manuel asking obo plus shipping contact harry if interested thanx
misc.forsale	re catalog of hard to find pc enhancements repost stuff deleted for example i subscribe to magazines abc news and xyz products i give my name as joseph x cool for the first and joe q cool for the nd when i get junk mail addressed to joseph x cool i know where they bought my name this doesn t help not getting junk mail but you at least know who s selling your name and if you ask companies to not sell your name to mailing lists tele marketeers they are not supposed to as in it s illegal and in case you haven t guessed i don t really use joe cool my company maintains a mailing list which is regularly rented for one time use by the major software companies the method you are using to seed your junk mail isn t really effective bulk mailers regulary either send their databases to be cleaned by the ncoa which if you ve moved recently will revert back to the original xxx cool and in large mailings there will likely be a dupe of you and they ll pick the first and use the others for future mailings btw our list is currently one of the hottest lists for actual buyers of a ms windows utility product in the range and is available through direct media in ct at per name please let your direct mail marketing rep know about this thanks ted matthew caprile hey i only speak for myself even i won t admit to the opinions expressed caprile apple com here so don t expect my employer to
misc.forsale	drafting machine for sale for sale precision drafting machine bruning ogp solid older model with spring loaded counter balance clamps on table without scales for right handed person make offer includes ups parcel post postage i m guessing that it s from the s or s a period well known for excellent drafting machine construction it s built with real metal parts not cheap modern plastic and it s painted the typical office grey popular in that period it s smooth working and each of the two arms on it measures roughly it has a dual clamp to enable you to clamp it on the edge or corner of a table rick inzero rochester cci rdi northern telecom ltd uunet ccicpg cci rdi rochester ny rdi cci com
misc.forsale	apple iigs i have a basic apple iigs system that i need to sell everything comes with original boxes and documentation and is in excellent condition make an offer i ll consider anything apple iigs meg drive applecolor rgb monitor keyboard mouse mousepad dustcovers baud applemodem random other worthless stuff here s a list of the games apps games applications battlechess system disk defender of the crown system tools iigs arkanoid ii wordperfect bubble ghost appleworks shadowgate writer s choice elite balance of power draw plus marble madness copy ii plus zany golf proterm communications software chessmaster if interested contact sunshine cco caltech edu
misc.forsale	forsale used guitar amp two years old crate guitar amplifier model g xl handles upto watts dual input two channels reverb three band eq distortion i am asking send me a mail to thssjxy iitmax acc iit edu if you are interested prices maybe negotiable
misc.forsale	cassettes for sale update hi there again i still have a few tapes left as before they are each postage paid multiple orders appreciated but not necessary package deals welcome thanks chris bray lewis huey sports hooters nervous night poison look what the cat dragged in hall oates big bam boom ratt out of the cellar quiet riot condition critical seger bob like a rock outfield play deep plant robert shaken n stirred journey raised on radio duran duran duran duran duran duran arena duran duran rio
misc.forsale	elvis autograph for sale elvis prestly autograph autogaph is one of two the othere being elvis s friend red west and were obtained by the seller in the spring of in jacksonville fla the afternoon following the incident when elvis collapsed during a concert at the gaterbowl in jacksonville request offers ellen t san jose ca
misc.forsale	dx mram kcache mhd vesa local bus motherboard mb ram k cache floppy mb hard drive ide controller hd fd s p g local bus mb svga video card svga monitor dpi mini tower key keyboard david tsao cstsao sam cs olemiss edu or benjamin chen
misc.forsale	marvel dc valiant image etc for sale updated april title price alpha flight wolverine appears double size jim lee s first work at marvel aliens st app aliens in comics st prnt may amazing spider man rd vulture intro new green goblin green goblin appears green goblin appears st appearance hobgoblin hobgoblin appears peter david script human torch r origin spiderman hobgoblin hobgoblin appears punisher hobgoblin appear spiderslayer appears kraven appears kraven appears todd mcfarlane hobgoblin vs green goblin venom appears todd mcfarlane art todd mcfarlane art silver sable paladin c america sabretooth appears red skull captain america hulk appears last mcfarlane punisher appears punisher appears hobgoblin appears intro cletus kassady carnage venom appears venom appears pages punisher darkbawk appear punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears st app spider man holo c annual annual st solo venom story annual new warriors venom anne rice s vampire companion anne rice s vampire lestat archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers st appearance x factor alpha flight appears pages new team alpha flight appears new team annual annual annual batman legends of the dark knight blue cover batman shadow of the bat still in polybag batman versus predator prestige edition predator prestige edition batman batman year one trade paperback st printing bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster daredevil origin bullseye ghost rider death s head early app frank miller art begins deathstalker appears frank miller art elektra nd appearance bullseye bullseye kingpin appear punnisher appears frank miller art punnisher appears frank miller art punnisher appears frank miller art wolverine appears darkhawk spider man and hobgoblin appear dark horse presents st app concrete st printing concrete appears annual aliens appear dazzler x men appear beast appears deathlok deathstroke the terminator st printing defenders intro new defenders double size x factor appears demon lobo appears lobo appears lobo appears eternal warrior miller cover fantastic four hulk vs the thing simonson art begins simonson art simonsom art simonson art simonson art art adams cover art wolverine ghost rider wolverine appear ghost rider wolverine appear pages simonson art simonson art simonson art fantastic four vs new warriors page th anniversary issue annual flash superman flash race ghost rider spider man hobgoblin cover and story spider man hobgoblin cover and story ghost rider and cable sam keith cover ghost rider and captain america fear guardians of the galaxy prism foil cover harbinger st appearance h a r d corps h a r d corps havok and wolvreine meltdown incredible hulk byrne art begins st app grey hulk since st mcfarlane issue grey hulk series begins st dale keown art in hulk green hulk appears keown art keown art keown art grey vs green hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a green foil stamped cover keown infinity gauntlet perez painted cover thanos thanos thanos john byrne s next men justice league america justice league quarterly justice society of america april kamandi origin kamandi kirby art kirby art kirby art kirby art last generation magnus robot fighter new direction logo begins marc spector moon knight ghost rider appears marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer wolverine master of kungfu wolverine master of kungfu wolverine master of kungfu wolverine daredevil wolverine hulk wolverine submariner wolverine man thing man thing ant man man thing colossus black panther shanna black panther nomad ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther rob liefeld art cyclops ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther nth man havok blk panther black panther havok hulk black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok erik larsen excalibur wolverine rob liefeld wolverine rob liefeld wolverine rob liefeld silver sable wolverine hulk jackson guice deathlok poison thor scarlet witch mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x dracula b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x st keith art and jae lee keith wolverine beast ghost rider cable wolverine ghost rider wolverine ghost rider maxx sam keith metropol ted mckeever mighty mouse moon knight nam frank castle punisher new mutants intro new warlock magus rob liefeld todd mcfarlane cover mcfarlane cover st app cable cameo rob liefeld nd cable rob liefeld rd cable rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld cover rob liefeld wolverine vs cable rob liefeld wolverine vs cable rob liefeld x tinction agenda rob liefeld wolverine cable cover st app deadpool gideon domino st app feral of x force st app x force annual evolutionary war annual st liefeld art on new mutants annual annual nd app x force summer special art adams art olympians mcfarlane omega men st appearance lobo st full lobo story annual power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth th appearance sabretooth power pack wolverine and sabretooth appear predator big game contains trading cards punisher wilce portacio punisher and captain america blood and glory punisher p o v starlin script wrightson art starlin script wrightson art starlin script wrightson art punisher war journal jim lee art ghost rider appears ghost rider appears punisher war zone die cut cover ragman pat broderick origin ragman rocketeer special edition dave stevens art shadowman simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed solar man of the atom spectacular spider man punisher appears answer appears cloak and dagger appear cloak and dagger appear spot appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears dr octopus appears hobgoblin appears kraven appears kraven appears punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears st app new hobgoblin origin lobo bros punisher spider man gets new powers cosmic spider man appears st ed hologram hobgoblin annual mcfarlane story spider man gold edition direct sale regular edition green unbagged lizard calypso appear mcfarlane hobgoblin ghost rider appear hobgoblin ghost rider appear black costume returns black costume morbius appear mcfarlane liefeld art x force appears sinister six hulk appear hulk deathlok appear origin retold hologram cover star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics strange adventures dozens but in varying high grades ask swamp thing john constantine appears annual tales of the teen titans deathstroke app orogin terminator dark horse terminator secondary objectives terminator judgement day thor mutant massacre x factor sabretooth app eric masterson becomes new thor warlock and the infinity watch starlin scripts gamora vs thanos web of spider man thunder appears magma appears hobgoblin wolverine appear origin rose hobgoblin appears hobgoblin appears green goblin as super hero green goblin as super hero rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story hologram cover polybagged annual werewolf by night nd appearance moon knight moon knight appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad sabretooth proven not to be his dad sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man annual x factor sabretooth appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears x tinction agenda jim lee cover whilce portacio art begins whilce portacio art last old team issue annual new warriors x force appear x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon bagged cable card x men mutant massacre intro marauders mutant massacre marauders appear wolverine battles sabretooth wolverine battles sabretooth art adams cover fall of the mutants inferno rob liefeld art all new x men begin jim lee art series begins jim lee art last jim lee art new x men team st printing x o manowar all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	color tv san diego color tv san diego mesa college area emerson m r w high tech square screen best price you features timer sleep feature for auto shut on off can find for a fully cable ready w all coaxial video audio jacks inch color tv mts multichannel sound jack for processing stereo or bilingual channels firm key remote includes review recall sleep features tel please reply to lcornel eis calstate edu for fastest response louis louis cornelio genie l cornelio the better the technology louis netlink cts com the less efficient the human use of it
misc.forsale	auction marvel dc valiant image dark horse etc i am auctioning off the following comics these minimum bids are set below what i would normally sell them for make an offer and i will accept the highest bid after the auction has been completed title minimum current alpha flight jim lee s first work at marvel aliens st app aliens in comics st prnt may amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man st appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers st appearance x factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents st app concrete st printing h a r d corps incredible hulk st app grey hulk since incredible hulk st mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk st dale keown art in hulk incredible hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover new mutants mcfarlane cover st app cable cameo new mutants st app x force new mutants annual st liefeld art on new mutants omega men st appearance lobo omega men st full lobo story power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth th appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed spectacular spider man st app new hobgoblin star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics web of spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web of spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad wolverine sabretooth proven not to be his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card x force signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card x force signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card x force signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	cobra gtl ssb cb for sale well i have it forsale again the last deal didn t work out and i lowered the price again cobra gtl single side band w mike or best offer dave cal poly life liberty and the slo ca pursuit of land speed records autobahn commuters
misc.forsale	keyboards drives radios for sale hello i have these items for sale terms are ups cod or prepayment by money order keyboards for ibm compatibles mitsumi mb floppy disk drive sony srf m digital am fm stereo walkman the drive cost me the keyboards were each and the sony radio cost i will sell for the best offers thank you buchanan in fear the goverment that fears your guns without the nd amendment we cannot guarantee ou r freedoms aj cleveland freenet edu
misc.forsale	ti procalc modules for sale texas instruments ti procalc new in box w manuals also texas instruments ti statistics library module for procalc new in box w manual and texas instruments ti chemical engineering module for procalc new in box w manual all for shipping contact geary morton ginkgo uncecs edu phones h w
misc.forsale	chemlab eyeofthebeholder cluebook ethernettransceiver nintendocontrol i have the following items for sale the highest bid for each to arrive in my email box by pm edt wednesday april gets the item skillcraft senior chemlab set safe for ages and up used little bottles of different chemicals plastic balance alcohol lamp test tube litmus paper manual with over experiments shipping will be added to your bid eye of the beholder ii fun game for the ibm pc in original box with original media and manual shipping will be added to your bid clue book for eye of the beholder ii solve your dilemmas in a hurry and find all the loot shipping will be added to your bid free shipping on this item if you bid highest on this and item ethernet transceiver st with lanview aui to ohm coaxial works fine has nifty blinking leds for send receive collision power etc built in t includes one ohm terminator shipping will be added to your bid super nintendo super controller auto repeated fire hands free continuous fire slow motion accomplished by automatically pausing unpausing add to a one controller console to allow two players shipping will be added to your bid be sure to include a shipping address with all bids be sure to include an email address with all bids send bids to battle cs utk edu david battle you will be informed by email if your bid is the highest by pm edt wednesday april items will be shipped us postal service first class cod on thursday morning a money order for your bid plus the indicated shipping amount will be needed to receive the item please keep this fact in mind when bidding david battle cs utk edu
misc.forsale	airline ticket washington dc champaign il for sale i am selling a one way ticket from washington dc to champaign il the home of the university of illinois am willing to offer a good price if you are interested please email me at eshneken uiuc edu thanks ed
misc.forsale	big block dodge carburetor napa remanufactured large barrel carburetor for big block dodge part new in box w manifold gasket retail napa price your price shipping contact geary morton ginkgo uncecs edu phones h w
misc.forsale	infinity rs x speakers for sale brand new i have a pair of car speakers for sale they are brand new still in box and plastic wrap i got them at highland s going out of business sale just yesterday however they won t fit my car s rear deck because it s not the right size so i am trying to sale them here infinity rs x three way freq resp k hz power capacity watts per channel sensitivity db spl w m impedance ohms mouting depth list price stereo store tax mail order catalog price s h my price obo shipping please e mail me at fang en ecn purdue edu or call me at michael wen cheng fang
misc.forsale	monitor tracy your monitor is on its way mike damico
misc.forsale	k fax modem for sale a slightly used less than two months old suprafaxmodem is for sale it comes with latest rom h communication software fax software original manuals and the original registration card here are some specs model supfaxv bis description suprafaxmodem v bis type internal data speed bps data upto bps with v data compression protocols bell a ccit v v v bis v v bis v v bis mnp mnp fax bps send receive fax class commnads group iii compatible transmission v v v ter other non volatile memory autoanswer autodial tone or pulse extended at commands and result codes includes diagnostics phone jacks subscriptions to free online services year warranty asking neg s h if interested please e mail thanks
misc.forsale	dx intel cpu chip for upgraded my friend s dx and have the chip for sale dx intel cpu chip first us shipping will get the chip or you can make the offer if you don t like the price thanks
misc.forsale	brand new software packages for sale looking for people to buy brand new software packages including microsoft windows harvard graphics pagemaker paradox lotus etc at off list price e mail immediately to ergo wam umd edu with name phone email address and software names
misc.forsale	top of the line jvc portable disc player for sale i have used jvc s top of the line portable cd player for three months now i have mostly used it in my car on long trips so it has less than hours of use on it the unit is one of the best that i have seen and listened to but i am going to part with it to install a disc changer in my car features include hz hz rechargeable nicad batteries wireless remote control ac adaptor headphones carrying belt and case digital band graphic eq with spectrum analyzer presets user programmable rca connections and cord jvc compulink capability cord included programmable from remote intro random repeat playback i will include a discwasher tm power converter to convert an automobile s v dc to the v dc that the unit requires i had to buy this one because it was the only one that fits jvc makes a unique connection that cannot be found at radio shack etc i paid for the disc player and another for the power converter i will sell the disc player alone for or both items for send replies to harrij rpi edu or jon
misc.forsale	dayna etherprint base t new cheap posting for a friend contact directly or leave e mail and i can forward brand spanking new still in original package never opened dayna etherprint t rj connector to support base t compliant networks connect localtalk compatible printers directly to ethernet networks will work with any localtalk compatible network printer such as laserwriter imagewriter ibm personal page printer ii hewlett packard deskwriter hewlett packard laserjet printer family qume printers can daisy chain a maximum of localtalk devices such as workstations modems printers to a single etherprint device support appletalk phase and phase protocols shipping cheap new without base t in mac world contact kam poon at after pm est
misc.forsale	mac monitor wanted wanted color monitor suitable for use on a macintosh centris i am planning on purchasing one of these machines soon and don t want to have to pay full price for a new monitor when a used one will do me just as well if you have one you d like to part with please email me with the specs and price thanks roger rsjoyce eos ncsu edu
misc.forsale	forsale new hp sx with software i bought my hp sx calculator a month ago used once but put it back in the box includes manual and i m including about high density disks packed with dozens if not hundreds of games and programs all you need to do is buy the pc cable for around bucks so you could use the software shipping included or best offer thanx l
misc.forsale	wanted memphis sublet non smoking normal law student needs furnished place to live in memphis this summer i ll be working at a firm downtown and will have to pass the bar character examination so you don t have to worry about your stuff being broken or stolen call chris at or leave e mail
misc.forsale	for sale laptop hd m ram for sale compudyne sxl laptop meg hd meg ram fd vga monochrome grey scale math coprocessor asking or best offer must sell soon do not reply to this email address call johnny at email phd cz gsbacd uchicago edu darin k fox b a j d are you master of your univ of ill graduate school of domain library and information science seinfeld
misc.forsale	re forsale men without hats folk of the s part iii vinyl grinning evil death mute bigwpi wpi edu wrote men without hats folk of the s part iii vinyl anyone out there who is willing to part with their copy of men without hats pop goes the world album on vinyl or perhaps cd please contact me we wish to purchase it o andrew tigress equinox gen nz o u it s late again o tea and lemmings please o
misc.forsale	terminal forsale 
misc.forsale	terminal for sale i have a vt and vt compatible terminal with external hyess modem amber screens keyboard cable make an offer
misc.forsale	gre gre economics test books for sale gre test aids for sale cliffs gre preparation guide c full length practive tests w answers and explanations also includes test taking strategies by the same people who do cliffs notes gre economics test by the research and education association revised edition includes full length exams with detailed explanations and solutions to each question pages practicing to take the gre economics test by ets includes an official full length gre economics test from and aswers included but no explanations practicing to take the gre general test no by ets includes three official gre general tests from w answers but no explanations and one additional gre general test complete with explanations to answers shipping is extra buy everything for and i cover the shipping keith r frederick happiness is our moral purpose if you see dr fu manchu kill him scalawag carson u washington edu reason is our only absolute i m not a number i m a free man cis uwid cornell here i come
misc.forsale	speakers for sale for sale bose a subwoofer month old advent minis months old email offers to craigb rpi edu
misc.forsale	math copro sale trade i am looking for a math coprocessor for a mhz should be a or i also have a sx for sale or trade tnx jim st b streader on the cutting edge of software evolution pics online multiuser system hst v massive file collection over files online newsgroups
misc.forsale	software sale hi i have the following software forsale microsoft ms dos dd this is a good buy for those who don t need all the utils in dos accolade hardball ii dd good arcade baseball game graphics sound are pretty good has the ability to make schedules and edit player stats accolade the third courier hd adventure spy type game ega earl weaver dd good arcade strategy type baseball game you have ability to play for league play i have mlb stats for and ega stormovik su soviet attack fighter dd good fighter simulation various missions and levels of play sierra thexder firehawk arcade shoot em up type game nice music and sound effects virgen scrabble computer version of the popular board game i m willing to negotiate on the prices prices do not include shipping shipping costs will be split drop me a line roberto alvarez ud ndsuvm programmer analyst ud vm nodak edu university of north dakota adrxa undjes
misc.forsale	jazz cd sale trade i have an unopened cd called bird the original recordings of charlie parker it has on it among others miles davis dizzy gillespie red rodney thelonious monk and lester young i would be willing to sell it to the highest bidder or else to trade it for another jazz cd that i would be interested in joe
misc.forsale	wholesale tv sets we are representing some chinese tv manufacturers who want to wholesale their products to latin american countries we are looking for brokers agents who can help us products include both color and black white tvs from to if interested please e mail or fax to mr z ho at usa for more information or inquiries good commission
misc.forsale	ticket san francisco philadelphia one way ticket return leg of roundtrip ticket for female traveler san francisco st louis philadelphia may friday leaves sfo am arrives phila pm or best offer return e mail or call home office
misc.forsale	re photogrammetric camera hello while refurbishing our observatory i came across the above mentioned camera it was manufactured by the instrument corporation of florida now for my questions does anyone have any knowledge of this equipement does anyone know of the company phone numbers are there any others out there i need some parts any responces are greatly appreciated take care jamie jf adx adelphi edu
misc.forsale	re cellular phone portable for sale in article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes i offer shipment at seller s expense payment as personal check sent by u s mail within hours after receiving goods i reserve the right to return the goods at my expense if i find them to be defective or otherwise unacceptable when i receive them either the merchandise or the check would be mailed within hours mark thorson i hope you realize that for a cellular phone you need to subscribe to a cellular carrier and it usually takes at least one working day before the service is available to you only then you can find out whether the phone is working tin
misc.forsale	intel fax modem for sale i have an intel satisfaxtion modem internal for sale it runs at baud data mode and up to baud as a class fax modem it transmits up to baud v and receives up to baud v ter the modem has all original manuals and comes with software icluding intel s satisfaxtion and faxability as well as crosstalk communicator i have used this modem less than an hour it came with my computer and i already had another one i would like to ask for this modem but will entertain all serious offers please email to jmu acpub duke edu thanks
misc.forsale	sx motherboard case mouse hello i have a motherboard and a case for sale as a package both of them came from a compuadd computer i bought last august and am presently upgrading here are the specs motherboard cyrix sl mhz microprocessor chips and technology chipset scatsx v slslc simm banks for a maximum of megs of ram built in floppy and hard drive controllers built in ports parallel serial and pin built in paradise svga controller with meg of ram windows drivers inc can do up to x colors based on the western digital wd c chip math co processor slot bit expansion slots and bit expansion slots case low profile desktop very nice grey color watt power supply room for floppies plus hd mouse button microsoft compatible grey color matches case all original manuals and documentation video drivers etc are included you are probably wondering why i must sell the case with the motherboard it is simply because the case is custom made for this particular board and you would be hard pressed to fit another mb in it however the case and this motherboard were made to go together and fit perfectly as you can see since this board includes drive controllers and a video controller you can save some money by buying this unit and not a mb where you would need to get io cards video card and drive controllers its just a lot more convenient on the whole i would like to ask about for this whole package i think this is a fair price given the facts that it includes a video card and drive controllers io ports all you need to do is add drives a monitor ram and a keyboard also keep in mind that it isn t a generic board but from compuadd i also will entertain all serious offers please email at jmu acpub duke edu thanks j
misc.forsale	hds and other computer parts for sale wanted for sale fujitsu meg scsi drive maxtor meg esdi drive maxtor meg esdi drive toshiba meg ide drive xt case motherboard dtc bit mfm hd fd controler all items are used in full working condition and have a warranty for one week unless otherwise specified all prices are negotiable shipping not included wanted developers kit for sb svga moniters two of them carl a merritt bromgrev rahul net
misc.forsale	lots of neat ibm clone stuff for sale complete dx mhz system for sale svga card w color tatung vga monitor s p floppies and watt power supply meg ram installed meg ide ms hard drive best offer bits and pieces a ide controller card b internal baud modem c dx mhz cpu d megs simm memory e standard vga card panasonic kxp wide carriage pin printer brand new condition comes with plenty o ribbons parallel and serial ports nice crisp output all items are in beautiful condition all fully functional willing to provide net references if needed best offers on all items snag em thanks for your time ciaran ciaran foley cfoley bonnie uci ics edu office
misc.forsale	new aircraft tu m dj subject new aircraft tu m for leasing set spare parts category offers to leasing headline new aircraft tu m mr director agabalaevich btw are these guys out of their minds or was our propaganda so effective that they believe some netters could actually buy such stuff and land in their driveway too much soda pop too quick go look up tu m it should be in most airliner hand books dj sgt d j morton environmental resource sciences hastings and prince edward regiment trent university peterborough ontario k j b canada dj there are a few things wrong with the potential sale of this dj aircraft dj there is starting to be a glut of new aircraft on the market dj airlines are taking delivery then mothballing their new dj planes dj unless the fuel efficiency is better than the airbus or dj boeing this plane is not economically feasible for the dj major players airlines unless the price is real cheap and dj you have an owner that doesn t care about fuel economy saudi dj family maybe sales ought to be pretty glim ummm i d be surprised if you couldn t find a gov t aid program to subsidize and or underwrite the lease that could make it quite an attractive arrangement bizarre yes impossible not really life is like an analogy yeah that s the ticket
misc.forsale	forsale norman rockwell okay okay norman himself isn t actually for sale but i have two saturday even post s both of which have norman rockwell illustrations on the front cover october with candidate kennedy on campaign has obviously a norman rockwell of kennedy on the cover november with candidate nixon on campaign and here we have nixon he s not a crook these are both in very good condition let me know if you re interested and to what tune todd janson no group moscow idaho
misc.forsale	i want your sx or dx chips i am in the market for a couple of intel chips please let me know if you have one or more for sale i am interested in both sx and dx models but they must be intel email me at bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	final public dragon magazine update last chance for public bids this is the final public update to my dragon magazine auction if there are no new bids then the current bids stand like that s gonna happen after this any updates will be by e mail only the entire auction will end as soon as the bids stop coming in so if you want to get in on this be sure to bid now all bids must be made in at least cent increments buyer will pay shipping unless you have any particular fancy it will be us mail th class special with lots of padding all dragons are bagged the condition of them vary quite a bit so i ve come up with my own condition system some dragons may be missing items like the inserts if you have any questions feel free to ask condition ratings usually this is just an evaluation of the cover as most of the material inside is in great shape excellent ie as you find them in the store very good still in great condition but can tell it s been boughten good on down the line very fair fair indicates lots of use but still decent poor indicates the material inside may be damaged usually by scissors a by the condition indicates that something from the magazine is missing usually the insert i ll post another public update sometime this weekend which will be the final public posting after which the auction will be by e mail until the bidding stops again if you have any questions ask away arrow fair top secret module missing bard tunes real maps tn de good forest of doom module detached but included inner planes ykchev good combat computer missing dragons tn de good vg monsters aquatic ad d module detached but included language lesson geoffrey good vg top secret module detached but included magic resistance mayla fair high level ad d module detached but included poison material spell components uccxkvb very fair baton races game insert missing spell research tn de good vg babba yagga s hut module detached but included unarmed combat geoffrey fair cover missing twofold talisman module squidly good twofold talisman module clerics squidly good top secret module wildernes geoffrey good elefant hunt insert missing falling damage marvel phile geoffrey good creature catalog missing shields sci fi tn de good ranger changes creature catalog ii detached but included geoffrey fair cover missing into the forgotten realms module detached but included ykcheu fair th anniversary dragons mutant manual uccxkvb poor cover missing treasure trove ii some pictures cut out thedm good poster missing city beyond the gate module detached but included raised dragon texture on cover geoffrey fair cover missing creature catalog iii detached but included geoffrey fair cover missing valley of earth mother middle level module detached but included geoffrey fair cover loosly attached unearth arcana update missing future of ad d centaur papers geoffrey fair unearth arcana update missing geoffrey fair vf marvel module thieves cover detached but included geoffrey fair ad d module invisibility cover back cover detached but included uccxkvb fair cover on variations of paladins more skills rangers ykcheu good vg variations of paladins more skills for rangers arrow fair cover missing dragons of glory supplement questionaire geoffrey good mutant manual ii environmental effects cover taped reinforced thedm very good mutant manual ii environmental effects ykcheu good customizing d d classes agent poster geoffrey very fair customizing d d classes agent poster missing geoffrey very good house on the frozen lands module th anniv squidly very good house on the frozen lands module th anniv geoffrey good murder mystery ad d module ykcheu very good ultimate article index mesozoic monsters mayla very fair elven cavalier remorhaz witch npc class ykcheu good theives harpies snakes squidly good vg d ship cardboard insert wild animals dr who uccxkvb good vg dice odds creative campaigns sage advice bazaar geoffrey good tournaments competitions nibar s keep game uccxkvb vg ex april fool s issue uccxkvb excellent oriental adventures cardboard castle insert geoffrey excellent th aniversary african beasts druids uccxkvb very good magic and wizardry thedm very good magic and wizardry arrow excellent aerial adventures nd edition aire uccxkvb excellent aerial adventures nd edition aire geoffrey very good clay o rama chivalry quasi elementals geoffrey vg ex clay o rama chivalry quasi elementals uccxkvb vg ex undead uccxkvb very good fighters fvpmantel good king s table insert game fvpmantel excellent demi humans uccxkvb vg ex the arcane arts tfpayn excellent deepearth arrow vg ex deepearth uccxkvb very good orcwars board game missing arrow very good berserkers spies roman gods marvel index geoffrey very good berserkers spies roman gods marvel index fvpmantel vg ex anniversary dragons tbh very good archers space sage advice uccxkvb very good archers space sage advice tbh very good cities urban adventures tbh excellent wilderness arrow very good horror haloween uccxkvb very good pages from the mages uccxkvb excellent clerics healers tbh good humanoids tbh very good ad d nd edition preview uccxkvb very good dm s issue uccxkvb very good poster missing castles thedm very good poster missing anninversary dragons tbh excellent magus board game magic tbh excellent fighting deck of many things insert tn de excellent no particular feature tn de excellent horror halloween issue tn de excellent oriental adventures eastern tn de good underdark poster missing is inside slight crumple on cover only noticable under inspection tn de very good gods tn de good vg poster dragonlance story war tn de excellent faeries dungeon module tn de very good buck rogers thedm very good th anniversary dragons uccxkvb excellent spelljammer poster missing kohlmaas good vg urban adventures ad d trading card insert missing uccxkvb very good dm issue tn de good haloween poster missing thedm excellent monsterous compendum insert magic tn de very good oriental adventures tn de vg ex sea undersea tn de excellent sci fi other games dino wars insert missing tn de excellent nature wilderness uccxkvb very good slight crease of back cover misc items featured thedm good slight crease in cover dragon kings game insert dragons th anniversary issue uccxkvb excellent missing poster trading cards argh cfrye excellent underdark hachiman excellent dark sun intravai excellent horror intravai excellent world building campaign help tn de excellent elves giant poster inside tn de very good calender poster dm help gunpowder too intravai excellent fighters the fighter class tn de excellent gencon form magic items featured tn de excellent calendar poster mages sorcerors tn de excellent anniversary issue dragons tn de excellent non player character enhancement tn de excellent dark sun campaign monsters dark sun geoffrey excellent haloween horror tn de excellent wilderness outdoors if you notice any errors please let me know other than slight name misspellings if it s close to your name that s you
misc.forsale	boss guitar pedal for sale one boss turbo overdrive pedal for guitar bass or keyboards or best offer thanks respond to hw or call harry
misc.forsale	dbase iv for sale price dropped dbase iv ver disks manuals still shrinkwrapped and all registration materials present asking
misc.forsale	pc stuff forsale i have the following items for sale buyer pays the shipping costs hardware is new and unused unless marked otherwise all software includes original disks and manuals no reasonable offers refused send offers questions to cpc po cwru edu hardware hercules graphics card mono graphics and printer ports hercules color card color graphics and printer ports teac mb floppy drive doesn t work sold as is for reapir or parts ibm async card serial card for pc xt at machines comes with support software kraft kc joystick works with pc compatibles and apple ii series not mac k floppy disks over bulk grade disks floppy disk storage boxes each holds disks one has a lock on it software microsoft macro assembler and update large manual and tutorial included sideways rotates wide spreadsheets degrees to print on page games wolfpack wwii submarine simultaion space station oblivion arcade style game similar to spectre demon stalkers dungeon game like gauntlet zork ii moonmist ballyhoo infocom adventure mystery games jack nicklaus unlimited golf and course design excellent golf game war in middle earth similar to d d games based on tolkien s the hobbit sargon excellent chess game play against someone or against computer silent service ii submarine simulation charles p cox jr computer engineering case western reserve university cpc po cwru edu
misc.forsale	for for sale with vga color monitor dual floppy vga card with mb on board joystick mouse mb ram no hard drive for only respond quickly orion auld we are only fabulous if you re not part of the solution beasts after all you re part of the precipitate john ashberry
misc.forsale	joe venuti record wanted if anyone has joe venuti s record fiddle on fire and would like to sell it please contact me richard j brooks el cerrito ca internet rbrooks eis calstate edu compuserve internet compuserve com
misc.forsale	honda accord honda accord for sale miles all highway miles excellent condition white ex model loaded or best offer call tom h w
misc.forsale	re cellular phone portable for sale i hope you realize that for a cellular phone you need to subscribe to a cellular carrier and it usually takes at least one working day before the service is available to you only then you can find out whether the phone is working tin not true dial and listen to the recording if you get it then your phone was recognized by the network you wouldn t be able to dial a real number yet of course mark bramwell ve pzr located in sunny london ontario internet mark ardsley business uwo ca ip address packet ve pzr ve gyq uwo phone
misc.forsale	texas star dx linear amplifier or tornado linear looking for an amateur radio operator that needs a variable power linear amplifier for mhz looks and works like new runs off v for mobile use input watts output watts am watts pep ssb i need out of it if that s too much i also have a tornado that takes w in and w out for reply with your callsign address and phone number for verification of license prices do not include shipping packaging darrek kay kayd prism cs orst edu kb rvd
misc.forsale	trade my k modem for your pc xt trade your old pc for my new modem modem comes with coupond good for travel to from europe v bis modem modem features mnp to compression error correction v bis to compression error correction ccitt v bis compatible k bps ccitt v compatible k bps ccitt v bis compatible k bps at command set compatible compatible with ibm pc xt at s and compatibles bundled with communications software pc bus interface two rj c connectors phone and line e mail danj holonet net
misc.forsale	st tos and sf movie videotapes beta for sale trade repost nyamane nyx cs du edu norm yamane writes i have the following videos for sale all have been viewed once and are in good condition star trek tos collector s edition all episodes tapes asking for the lot i ve got episodes left on beta for sale at us each neg or for trade for for movie on beta or a used cd or a package deal for or whatever you care to propose in trade e g all for a set of good stereo headphones e g sony v or v an apple iwii sheet feeder a good used fm cassette stereo walkman or a hotel coupon s for free stays fob new york city guests coming the remaining collection is as follows charlie x dagger of the mind miri shore leave the alternative factor operation annihilate who mourns for adonais numbers indicate episode numbering on the tape boxes for those who are keeping track of what episodes they re missing in that manner rsvp for summaries if necessary the tapes are all in excellent condition in the original packaging all have been played at least once but most have been played only once and none have been played more than twice running time min ea unedited uncut store bought originals unlike those in syndication all have incredible beta hifi sound i also have the following sf and horror movies on beta as well us negotiable or trade for swap for movie on beta or a used cd the bride sting jennifer beales buck rogers conquers the universe buster crabbe constance moore rsvp for my larger beta movies music trade list or find it on misc forsale gld ps for those of you who may wonder beta is alive as a pro hobbyist format there s life beyond the corner video store je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
misc.forsale	nec multisync plus for mac pc nec multisync plus model jc vma x shipping price is frim do not send me an emai if your offer is less than my asking thank you yuesea
misc.forsale	re trade my k modem for your pc xt email your replies to danj holonet net
misc.forsale	new computer books for sale hi i have several computer related books for sale they are all new unused and hence in excellent condition the subjects include programming languages c c lisp prolog operating systems unix dos windows x windows lan ai and expert systems if you are interested pls contact me at parikhma ucunix san uc edu thanks m parikh
misc.forsale	wanted hp scanjet and adf i need some used scanners i m limiting my selection to hp models with document feeders i think this means the scanjet plus and the scanjet iic so if you have one of these and want to sell it please tell me kyler p s i need only one with a mac interface the others are for ibm pc compatibles
misc.forsale	adlib sound board for sale i have an adlib sound board for sale it includes the original disks and i ll throw in a windows wav sound file driver for those of you that are using your pc speaker for games this will be a much welcomed board for your pc includes shipping to your home or office email bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	laserdisks forsale the following laserdisks are in used but like new condition category title price horror rabid grannies a blood spattered tale of two little old ladies who open a surprise package from hell clv side cav min horror forbidden world subject is half human and one of the researchers is the father roger corman prod clv min horror horror planet an alien creature has been waiting for a million years to breed and its time has come clv min horror witchtrap and in the upstairs shower we have the sexy ms ginger kowowski and this is where all the chillingly frightful fun comes to a head clv min murder bikini island swimwear illustrated needs a cover girl and the competition is fierce very fierce clv min comedy hysterical it s a blend of timeless farce contemporary satire nonsensical sight gags and dead people singing and dancing hudson brothers clv min comedy hollywood hot tubs valley girl crystal is back in another superheated frolic through those hollywood hot tubs clv min comedy beverly hills brats scooter s in trouble now his kidnappers don t take credit cards martin sheen clv min comedy transylvania the good citizens of transylvania invite you to this the most frighteningly funny event of the year ed begley jr jeff goldblum clv min comedy meet the hollowheads makes the married with children gang look sane just say no to butt polish clv min comedy don t tell mom the babysitter s dead no rules no curfews no nagging no pulse home alone times christina applegate clv min animated popeye at sea hilarious cartoon adventures on the high seas clv min color musical babes in toyland disney re make of the classic with annette tommy sands ray bolger and ed wynn clv min action american angels baptism of blood meet the first ladies of wrestling clv min making of runaway train pickup all of the behind the scenes action displayed for your pleasure jon voigt ann margret cav min drama i posed for playboy when fantasy meets reality lynda carter clv min shipping costs of per disk disk for disks or more will be added to the total off of orders of or more titles no cods mo or checks accepted in advance payment larry mcelhiney x mack mchome santa cruz ca us
misc.forsale	wargames magazines forsale discounts please take off each item over off each item over here is the list of magazines including asking price strategy tactics magazine all include unpunched games new as mailed with games and all inclusions issue title asking oil war american intervention in the persian gulf berlin the enemy at the gates tito partisan army yugoslavia kaiser s battle german offensive march operation grenade rhineland feb mar sicily the race to messina jul aug the battle of monmouth colonies take offensive end of an era new as mailed with games and all inclusions in envelope issue title asking the battle of abensberg magazine only kanev russian paratroops manchu the taiping rebellion north german plain modern germany the tigers are burning camp in the ukraine nicararagua pegasus bridge the beginning of d day campaigns in the valley fortress stalingrad russian winter offensive the far seas german cruiser operations wwii beirut arab stalingrad rush for glory war with mexico the ah general magazine many other articles included in each issue issue title asking vol crescendo of doom fortress europa circus maximus stalingra bismark squad leader clinic campaign magazine many other articles included in each issue issue title asking crescendo of doom cross of iron counterstroke at inchon squad leader variant gdw s battle for leyte gulf all magazine prices include postage all issues are in new or like new condition games and books yaquinto publications inc attack of the mutants introductory game unpunched new the complete book of wargames out of print author jon freeman part introduction pages including ch kassala an introductory wargame complete information on over wargames as of hardcover pages large format shipping extra on books and games prefer money orders for payment i ll allow personal checks to clear before shipping larry larry mcelhiney th avenue santa cruz ca x w h
misc.forsale	software and hardware for sale i have the following items for sale animation works software for macintosh by gold disk this is a brand new shrink wrapped copy microsoft excel for windows ver opened but includes everything including registration card video fastwrite vga card video memory x resolution everex b internal modem video card and the modem are used items if you are interested make a reasonable offer i wish to ship these ups cod please email me at karu nevada edu thank you karu karu nevada edu
misc.forsale	need apartment room in boston i will be in boston cambridge specifically working this summer and am in need of a place to stay if you have a room to sublease or anything of the sort i would appreciate a mail i am a year old white male and am very flexible i can adapt to a smoking or non smoking environment access to the t would be nice though i will have a car thus need a parking space i would need this from late may or early june until aproximately end of july any responses welcome mike mbeck vtssi vt edu
misc.forsale	computer audio video furniture needed as of unless otherwise noted i am mainly interested in used items if you have any of the following for sale please contact me email mbeck vtssi vt edu phone usmail michael beck progress street e blacksburg virginia please give as much info as possible brand age condition etc wanted as of am computer equip cheap tape drive pretty much any kind used memory for ps model z new or used macintosh computer mhz chip new or used colorado tape drive megabyte preferr w tapes used key at keyboard high density mb disk drive printer oms or hp laser or hp deskjet series printer pin or deskjet high density mb disk drive external adaptec scsi bit hd fd controller used piggy back memory expansion for intel inboard mb ide hard drive monitor resolution dot pitch or better digital non computer equip drum set mult amps for a band tv or bigger stereo vcr heads stereo receiver watts or more w dolby prologic surround sound capability bed full or queen sized local offers only please desk local offers only please due to shipping constraints
misc.forsale	videocamera amiga hp thinkjet for sale as of if you are interested in any of the following please contact me email mbeck vtssi vt edu phone usmail michael beck progress street e blacksburg virginia for sale as of am panasonic af x ccd omnimovie camcorder vhs hq high speed shutter flying erase head ca years old but only used very lightly date time stamp counter memory rec review fade back light auto manual focus built in microphone jack for external microphone comes with sturdy aluminum hardplastic carrying case long x wide x high shoulder strap power adaptor battery charger battery pack remote recording controller uhf vhf cable adaptor audio video cables and adaptor aproximate dimensions measured around outmost features long x wide x high w handle asking price best offer so far but looking for more new price amiga ux mhz unix compatible machine w meg hard drive meg ram no monitor keyboard esc and keys broken asking price obo hewlett packard thinkjet printer w hp ib interface like new in original box asking price obo sold at t portable cellular phone model asking price sold for listed at new sold compaq lte laptop contact for details best offer so far sold for
misc.forsale	wanted cheap used gameboy tg games the title says it all if you have some cheap used gameboy or tg player or more games please email me all offers rohit
misc.forsale	technical books for sale hello i have the following for sale most of the books are in perfect condition if interested please e mail to chungy rpi edu through the telescope hard cover surface physics soft cover the physics of structurally disordered matter an introduction soft cover subatomic physics hard cover a first general relativity hard cover non equilibrium thermodynamics soft cover advances in atomic and molecular physics vol hard cover advances in atomic and molecular physics vol hard cover molecular beams hard cover molecular beams and reaction kinetics hard cover perturbation methods in applied mathematics hard cover elementary differential equations and boundary value problems hard cover vector mechanics for engineers statics and dynamics hard cover free electron lasers hard cover physical mechanics hard cover
misc.forsale	electronics curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included and it works with universal remotes heads works great but i replaced it with a stereo vcr paid years ago will sell for delivered obo radio shack stereo amp inputs tone and left and right volume speakers not included compact w unit for plus shipping great for amiga stereo output or soundblaster output if you are interested in either of the above mail me keith at radley gibbs oit unc edu or call me at i did have these sold but both deals fell thru so if you are still interested in either email or call me major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga university of north carolina
misc.forsale	misc stuff for sale misc items for sale mount plate sony model cpm p mounting plate for sony portable cd players for portable plugs into car lighter snaps onto the bottom of any sony cd player portable cd player perfect condition will also throw in a cassette adapter in so so condition paid asking car speakers sherwood two way car speakers in car for months inch excellent condition paid asking inch factory speakers from toyota excellent condition asking nintendo nintendo game boy light boy tetris super mario land gameboy nfl football castlevania adventure hyper lode runner years games old all in working condition asking accessories whole internet the whole internet user s guide and catalog by ed krol book guide to using the internet where to fing information and resources paid asking microsoft never used came with my computer asking visual basic microsoft came with my computer never used asking word for windows thanks jonathan d fields fields cis ohio state edu
misc.forsale	cd roms sale new update i m looking to find some people interested in getting some cd rom s below is a list with their prices if you are interested in any of these send me some mail and i can guarantee this price if you are not local their will be a shipping cost and cod cost if you prefer it to be shipped that way marcus updated prices from last post american business phonebook dos animals dos animals mpc audoban birds dos audoban mammals dos barney bear goes to school dos bible library dos bibles and religion dos book of lists dos britannicas family choice dos britamrica select dos business economics dos business backgrounds dos business master dos carmen san diego where is mpc cd play launch dos cd rom software jukebox dos cia vorld taur dos chess master mpc dos classic collection dos clipert goliath dos colossal cookbook dos delorme s atlas usa win desert storm mpc deathstar arcade battles dos dictionaries language dos education master dos electronic home library dos family doctor dos family encyclopedia by comptons dos family encyclopedia by comptons mpc game master dos game pack ii dos golden immortal dos great cities of the world dos greet cities of the world mpc great cities of the world ii dos great cities of the world ii mpc groliers encyclopedia dos groliers encyclopedia mpc guiness disc dos ham radio dos information usa dos islands designs dos jets props dos jones fast lane dos mps kgb cia world fact book dos kings quest dos mpc library of the future dos loom dos mpc wizard mpc macmillan kids dictionary mpc magazine rack dos majestic places dos mavis beacon teaches typing mpc mixed up mother goose dos mpc money money money dos monkey island dos oak cd stand dos our solar system dos presidents dos publish it v dos reference library dos secret weapons luftwaffe mpc shereware games dos shereware overload dos sher holmes consul det mpc sleeping beauty dos strd cd software bundle titles n a stellar dos mpc story time interactive dos the cd rom collection dos time magazine almanac current dos time table of hist sci innovation dos tons gigs dos too many typefonts dos total baseball dos us atlas w automap dos us history dos us world atlas dos mpc us wars civil war dos wild places dos wing com ultima vi dos mpc world view dos e mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet uu net voice internet mkbaird david uunet uu net e mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet uu net voice internet mkbaird david uunet uu net
misc.forsale	motherboard for sale i ve got a motherboard for sale i dx processor w mb ram ami bios w setup math coprocessor socket expansion slots full sized motherboard fits any full sized case all manuals included make me an offer reason for sale i ve got a new hp workstation to play with now also other peripherals vga card moditor teac disk drives printer etc available e mail for more info the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
misc.forsale	panasonic dot matrix printer complete i would like to sell my dot matrix printer so i can upgrade to inkjet it is a panasonic kx p pin multi mode printer here are the stats from memory and the manual x dot printing for hi res graphics etc very fast up to cps printing in printer controlled as opposed to windows driver controlled printing bidirectional printing for faster processing speed fonts courier prestige bold ps script sans serif epson lq and ibm proprinter x printer emulation can accept single sheets envelopes and non carbon copies by friction feed front or bottom paper feed kb buffer i will send a sample document and a printed gif jpeg file to anyone who wishes to send a sase with purchase prepaid please i will include the following accessories manual cable centronics remaining stack of tractor fed paper about free copy of windows printer driver unless this is illegal or if it is included with windows free unregistered dos shareware program registration i think that apparently offers some word processing capabilities from dos the last two will be on a disk either size i am asking for around but i am open to any reasonable offers i am a college student so i cannot afford to buy a new printer without getting a considerable portion of the money from this printer this price includes all above items and shipping probably ups is included as well i have the original box but only one of the original styrofoam end pieces i will use a towel on the other end you get a free towel too worked fine getting it here the whole shebang might not fit in the original box i will figure this out after the offers come in email any questions and offers jon jmatkins midway uchicago edu jmatkins ellis uchicago edu
misc.forsale	turbografx system for sale for sale nec turbografx video game system package includes base unit with power supply tv hookups controller and the games keith courage in alpha zones and ordyne one extra controller turbotap let s you hook up as many as controllers to the tg all original packaging manuals etc for the above items the games tv sports football alien crush splatterhouse and takin it to the hoop current market price for the above system is approximately asking price is system was purchased in january of this year and has seen little use since then if interested contact me via one of the methods in my signature file chris freemesser rit cpet visit rochester new york where money is the priority home of the world s largest usenet clf ultb rit edu collection of potholes genie c freemesser
misc.forsale	re adlib sound board for sale in article bitzm columbia dsu edu bitzm columbia dsu edu michael bitz writes i have an adlib sound board for sale it includes the original disks and i ll throw in a windows wav sound file driver for those of you that are using your pc speaker for games this will be a much welcomed board for your pc includes shipping to your home or office email bitzm columbia dsu edu considering that you can get a brand new sounds blaster original for around i think this price is way too high then again things are worth what someone is will to pay for them jason settle down raise a family join the pta buy some sensible shoes and a chevrolet and party till you re broke and they drag you away it s ok al yankovic
misc.forsale	softwares games new or used for sale i have following softwares for sale new items never opened lucid d three dimensional spreadsheet with pull down menus on line help up to pages of notes behind every cell for dynamic detail d capability compatible with lotus etc including shipping manual disks turbo pascal express with ready to run assembly language routines that make turbo pascal faster more powerful and easier to use disks and manual including shipping dr halo iii much more than an icon driven paint program it s a complete page composition and presentation graphics package automatic aspect ratio correction for wysiwyg printing true color or grey scale output and partial screen prints disks and manual including shipping key form designer plus software for making professional business forms disks and manual plus shipping like new items package is opened but not registered jetfighter ii advanced tactical fighter f as well as f f f a and f disks and manuals plus shipping obo nighthwak f a stealth fighter the definitive simulation of america s radar elusive jet sensational sound nine world s hot spots cuba north korea the kuwaiti t theatre of operations central europe the north cape libya the persian gul f vietnam and the middle east awesome missions to challenge you disks and manual plus shipping obo grammatik iv plus shipping quattro pro make an offer gem chart graphics word publisher v make an offer all items above are for ibm compatible systems
misc.forsale	reduced sony cd players sale item sony es cdpx condition excellent age year old price includes tos link item sony cdp condition excellent age years old price everything comes with the original packaging and manuals these items have only been played through audiophile system and are in excellent shape if you are interested or need any additional information please e mail pc o andrew cmu edu or call me at home thanks jon p s yes these are for sale again
misc.forsale	genesis megadrive games for sale trade i have the following genesis megadrive games for sale or trade for other genesis md or snes games all games will work with both us and uk machines or hz except where stated and all are boxed with instructions d d warriors of the eternal sun outlander death duel chakan the forever man wonder boy in monster land a sennas super monaco gp hz only ill accept us or uk sterling make me an offer cheers jonathan onathan phone x address department of computing fax lancaster university e mail jonathan comp lancs ac uk lancaster lancs u k
misc.forsale	snes genesis games for sale or trade i have the following genesis carts for sale or trade alien global gladiators crue ball i have the following snes carts for sale or trade jimmy connors tennis super play action football cross system trades are fine cheers marc on the net no one can hear you scream email marc comp lancs ac uk marc computing lancaster ac uk
misc.forsale	cd s for sale th following cd s are for sale each cd cost except otherwise indicated which includes shipping and handling achtung baby u joshua tree u the immaculate collection madonna love hurts cher garth brooks garth brooks red hot chilli peppers ooooohhhhh tlc light and shadows wilson used only once never used most of them are still in shrink wraps please email to kgc woods ulowell edu
misc.forsale	month old polk speakers for sale month old polk system for sale excellent condition month old proof available polk monitor bookshelf speakers are being offered for sale the are excellent and sound great i am going for a higher model so i need to sell these speakers i paid for the pair of bookshelf speakers i am willing to consider the best offer send me your offers e mail suraj cs jhu edu also have excellent condition luxman receiver r and onkyo tape deck ta rw for sale both are in excellent condition and just months old makes an excellent system paid for receiver tape deck and speakers months back will consider the best offer each piece will be sold seperately if wanted e mail best offer to suraj cs jhu edu suraj
misc.forsale	re uhc svr forsale in article c i rs kzo gator rn com larry gator rn com larry snyder writes darylm illian mnet com daryl v mcdaniel writes considering the conversation about uhc on the net i wouldn t say k is a good deal considering the package is inflated in price to start with larry snyder larry gator rn com what problems have you had with uhc i have been using their os for years and have had very few problems eddie d tuggle etuggle dora auc trw com there is nothing either good or trw denver operations bad but thinking makes it so centretech pky aurora co shakespeare voice fax
misc.forsale	sls linux for sale disk tape since i have some free time while looking for a job i thought i would offer linux on disk and tape for those who need it note i am offering this service for experienced users who require no support simply put i am just a disk shuffler if you think you will need support i highly recommend softlanding linux system sls directly they provide an excellent product at a decent price with support i am the lazy mans service for those who don t want to spend hours on the modem and hours shuffling floppies and those who don t need sls support and opt to go it alone what you get each disk is disk minimum a minimal system disks b base system extras disks c compilers disks d documentation disks s source misc disk t tex disks x x windows disks entire set discount or the entire set on qc tape for send check or money order stephen balbach enberend terrace columbia md send e mail so i can have it ready sooner stephen access digex com
misc.forsale	maxtor info needed was re unix pc software for sale in qvs knh crl crl com bob nntp crl com bob ames writes here is a list of items for the b which i am selling list deleted pps priam d m hard drives exactly same as maxtor but faster does anyone know what the jumpers should be set to on the maxtor i have a that came off of a vs that i would like to use on a pc thanks in advance colin
misc.forsale	for sale mac classic and stylewriter i am selling my macintosh classic and stylewriter to the highest bidder you can reach me at san francisco or via email at forsythe leland stanford edu david goldberger
misc.forsale	re test instruments for sale the following is no longer for sale it has been sold textronics type storage display screen dim x textronics tm base with three pg mhz pulse generators textronics a adj dc power supply volts amps keithley instruments picoammeter analogic digit panal mount voltmeters still for sale hewlett packard a oscilloscope with aa four channel mhz vertical amplifier and a time base and delay generator best offer over analogic digit panal mount voltmeter powered by vdc model an x p same dimensions as above shipping reasonable offers will be accepted please respond by e mail or phone e mail halle rpi edu phone
misc.forsale	re receiver and c equilizer for sale i have sold the receiver the equilizer is still for sale technics sa integrated quartz synthesizer digital receiver sold audio control c graphic equilizer this is an awesome eq but i am broke bands channel octave eq subsonic filter rumble reducer tape monitor amazing real time spectrum analyzer with calibrtated microphone and pink noise generator calibrated and uncalibrated range adjustment display is calibrated in db and can display the average energy per band or the average for the full speactrum great for checking how loud your system is the display action has two speed settings to adjust how quickly the display responds to transients this is one of the best equilizers around it is very quiet and the display is fascinating to watch it sells for in stores so i will sell it for obo send all responses to halle rpi edu or call eve
misc.forsale	hummel collectors left chimney sweep number i to closed edition or line purchased in west germany in retail sell s h extra i have a picture of it if you want to see first in excellent shape no chips or cracks great idea for mother s day this is a great buy interested please e mail or call wk or eves brose
misc.forsale	re catalog of hard to find pc enhancements repost andy freeman writes joe doll writes the catalog of personal computing tools for engineers and scien tists lists hardware cards and application software packages for pc xt at ps class machines focus is on engineering and scien tific applications of pcs such as data acquisition control design automation and data analysis and presentation if you would like a free copy reply with your u s postal mailing address i am very interested in your catalog but e mail to you bounces don t bother it never comes it s a cheap trick for building a mailing list to sell if my junk mail flow is any indication i have a copy of this catalog in front of me as i write this it does have tons of qool stuff in it my impression is that they try not to send it out to browsers it appears that if your not a buyer or an engineer they do not want to waste a catalog on you when you get a catalog there s a vip code you have to give them to ensure your continued subscription anyway if you want to get in touch with them the company is personal computing tools division street campbell ca they also have fax s and toll free s for ordering and tech support please note that i am not associated with them in any way in fact i have never ordered from them so i can t comment on their products or service but the catalog is real and i am sitting here salivating over it
misc.forsale	expen ive motorola handheld radio for peanuts heavy duty commercial tiny x x inch waterproof vhf watt channel handheld two way radio motorola expo purchased new for amateur frequencies absolute m i n t condition never scratched dropped opened or otherwise comprosmised can be re crystaled for business band has pl slot original price motorola expo vhf watt chan ht comes with portable charger antenna manual new ni cad pack back housing belt clip motorola extra new ni cad pack motorola extra vhf rubber duckie antenna motorola desktop quick charger motorola external speaker mic motorola v cig lighter battery eliminator motorola heavy duty nylon holster motorola expo technical manuals motorola expo tuning case opening tools n c would like or best offer thanks a lot jeff jeff b later wb tza jeffl pmafire inel gov i have become disclaimer disclaimer where s my lawyer comfortably numb pink floyd
misc.forsale	re sega genesis for sale w sonic aboyko dixie com andrew boyko writes month old sega genesis barely used one controller in original box with sonics and gets the whole bundle shipped to you turns out they re not as addictive when they re yours anyway mail me if you re interested in this marvel of modern technology well i ve been informed that the price on the whole thing i m selling is now less than the price i m selling it for that will teach me to wait that long before getting rid of electronic equipment nevermind everyone i m keeping the thing andrew boyko aboyko dixie com
misc.forsale	case mfm contr game card sound card forsale desktop case watt power supply internal bays and external origanaly dell system case looks real good all hardware included i would like shipping or best offer western digital mfm controler bit floppy hard never had a problem with it i would like shipping or best offer game card works well nothing fancy just a joystick port i would like shipping or best offer innovation game sound card has one game port and an adlib port i never used it i got a soundblaster cheep before i installed it i would like shipping all offers considered buyer pays shipping please resopnd to klwright eos ncsu edu or thanks ken
misc.forsale	monitor for sale for sale kfc svga monitor x dp non interlaced screen still under warranty or best offer
misc.forsale	used stuff i have this used equipment for sale everything is negotiable baud compuadd internal modem all docs and software sco unix v all disks and docs has uucp all utils old mb floppy drive functional out of an old dead st mb rll drive don t know whats wrong with it old joystick don t remember the brand name old boat anchor cga monitor with full length cga card serial card pin test drive iii accolade all prices neg shipping
misc.forsale	ford galaxy original owner miles california car i m posting this for my mom and dad s neighbor please contact her directly for sale ford galaxy door cid engine automatic lt blue miles yes that is correct it was her nd car original owner alway garaged california inland valley car no rust paint good original interior good professionally maintained everything in good shape except gas gauge doesn t work all original except a rd brake light added call
misc.forsale	ps stuff misc p stuff cards micro channel arcnet coax x net cards serial adapter p n x parallel adapters p n x coprocessor p n x memory expansion option p n x expanded memory adapter w mb p n x expanded memory adapter k p n x alloy ftc mca tape adapter drives hard floppy mb hdd p n x model wd r mb hdd p n model wd t fdd p n f ec a fdd p n f ec this is what i have aquired over the past few years in ps components i have posted the part s so if you have any questions as to what a component is you can call ibm and find out i have no idea make me an offer trades welcome dan scherer voice pager seanews seattle public access usenet news mail news xanadu seanews akita com
misc.forsale	comics for sale i want to get rid of alot of comics that i have i am selling for off the overstreet price guide comic condition arion m batman s detective comics vf nm contest of champions m contest of champions m contest of champions m crystar m daredevil elektra dies nm m daredevil m fantastic four st app black panther f vf g i joe m hercules m incredible hulk st app wolverine vf the krypton chronicles m the man thing m the man thing m marvel age vf marvel age nm marvel and dc present x men and new teen titans m marvel graphic novel st app new mutants m the marvel guide to collecting comics nm marvel team up vf nm marvel team up m master of kung fu m the micronauts m micronauts king size annual m new mutants copies m new mutants m new mutants m the omega men m red sonja m ripley s believe it or not true war strories vf rom spaceknight m rom spaceknight m the secret society of super villains nm peter parker the spectacular spiderman m amazing spiderman m star trek m super villain classics origin galactus m new teen titans m uncanny tales publisher s file copy nm m vision and the scarlet witch m what if the avengers had never been nm wolverine limited series m wolverine limited series m wolverine limited series m wolverine limited series m x men f x men f x men f x men f
misc.forsale	books for sale someone please buy these books i am not asking much just make me an offer and i will probably take it calculus w analytic geometry by authur b simon copyright date below avg condition but still readable writing good software in fortran graham smith the holt handbook by kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide algebra trigonometry a problem solving approach rd edition by w flemming and d varberg very good condition general chemistry principles modern applications r petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send me your offers via email at chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	tektronix equipment color terminal printer rasterizer supplies for sale tektronix color terminal tektronix a rasterizer tektronix inkjet printer tektronix printer extras all tektronix products paper boxes transparencies boxes maintenance cartridges cart magenta ink cartridge cart we would like to sell as a single lot and preference will be given to offers for the entire list all offers accepted best offer gets the equipment bob robert d worsham bob email worsham aer com atmospheric environmental research inc voice memorial drive fax cambridge ma usa
misc.forsale	what a deal boy oh boy have i got a deal for you how does this sound i have decided to sell all of this as a package deal unless someone really wants something seperate then i m open to that as well kramer striker st electric guitar dark metallic blue floyd rose tremlo tuning lockers at the nut great action all around great guitar plus korg pme x professional modular effects pedal board has flanger chorus and graphic equilizer has a unique bonus you can buy seperate pedal boxes that sort of slide into any of the existing slots mono input stereo output perfect for the electric or acoustic guitars plus dod american metal distortion pedal durable great sounding pedal goes great with the korg pedal board there you have it everything you need for a great sound yours as a package deal for only o b o respond by email to dietrijj mentor cc purdue edu or by phone at and ask for jason thanks in advance jason dietrich
misc.forsale	porsche bay area posting this for a friend sunnyvale california porsche gts package leather interior european handling package sunroof cruise control k miles new paint immaculate in every way delivery possible to destination with deposit firm low book is high book is phone frank rosqui as new this vehicle was this posting does not reflect the opinions of my employer
misc.forsale	selling riding lawn mower ariens riding lawn mower this mower is in perfect condition and contains the following features electric start inch cut double rear baggers new battery new engine one year old inflatable tires gives nice ride cushioned seat gives nice ride i am moving into a house that has a small area of grass to cut and does not require such large mower the engine was replaced not rebuilt last year due to some faulty work done by a lawn mower repair shop price phone leave message
misc.forsale	for sale cheap logic boards update here s the updated list of the stuff i still have for sale also feel free to make an offer i m asking per board currently known electronic mother boards from old arcade games game name condition manufacturer tenyard fight iren tenyard fight bad internal short iren kangaroo sun electronics mr do okay but has interference guardian tip top sega bank panic sega sanritsu sega radar scope okay nintendo poseidon taito ninjakun bad needs capacitor crystal jass rack jamma double dribble zoar okay super trivia bad got fried greyhound electronics slither has error message century ii corp music trivia jaleco samurai fore groud char disapear taito poseidon okay taito ant eater tago electronics up n down buzzing sound tutankham bad konami pro wrestling okay video trivia grayhound asteron belt sega unknown boards sega konami pacific novelty manufacturing inc if anyone has the rom numbers for these boards please tell me absolutely unknown board misc stuff somekind of powersupply similar to atary audio reg ram card midway midway patter board z sync buss controller pacman filters midway pin scsi cable both ends are female alex fagundes proud owner of a maverick and another microfsh iastate edu believer that amiga rules
misc.forsale	tires for sale i have a set of four r big o tires that i had on my thunder bird we bought them and then traided the car in they would not give me anything for them so i had them taken off we drove about miles on them they are mile tires they are sporty looking low profile and take corners realy well if you are interested please contact me at or dusmadso idbsu idbsu edu i am in idaho usa
misc.forsale	memory howdy i m just posting this for a friend so don t reply to me i have a friend who has some x simms for sale mb for or mb for he also has a conner mb hard drive for it runs at ms his name is john and he can be reached at his bbs called classified connection at he is the sysop and you can call him and hear his awesome voice at adios the r the o the b the s k i
misc.forsale	for sale jazz recordings for sale jazz compact discs i have the following cds for sale they are all in mint condition and are fairly hard to find they are all on the savoy label and put out by dennon dennon bought the rights to savoy and released these disks i would like to sell them all in one package deal but i will consider individual orders these are the titles and artists telefunken blues milt jackson kenny clarke percy heath frank morgan frank wess walter benton jazz concert west coast the bopland boys opus de jazz vol john rae steve kuhn bobby jaspar jake hannah john neves patterns of jazz cecil payne kenny dorham duke jordan tommy potter art taylor penthouse serenade erroll garner footloose paul bley the imortal lester young lester young count basie great britain s marian mcpartland george shearing howard mcghee and milt jackson self titled i just love jazz piano hampton hawes john mehegan herbie nichols paul smith art pepper sonny reid self titled opus de blues frank wess thad jones curtis fuller charlie fowlkes hank jones eddie jones gus johnson jazz is busting out all over too many names to list opus in swing frank wess kenny burrell freddie green eddie jones kenny clarke jackson s ville milt jackson lucky thompson hank jones wendell marshall kenny clarke i will take any reasonable offer on the package of the discs as well as offers on individual discs please e mail me with a response or call thanx derek derek j p serianni e mail djserian flash lakeheadu ca o o sociologist it s miles to chicago we ve got a full tank lakehead university of gas half a pack of cigarettes it s dark and u thunder bay ontario we re wearing sunglasses elwood blues
misc.forsale	ega vga monitor card wanted as it says in the subject i am looking for a decent ega or vga monitor card combo that is in working condition the only thing is that it must be an bit card e mail all offers to io maine maine edu thanks merv
misc.forsale	is itproper net etiquette to advertise a company s junk mail list in article c jccg bn tsoft net you write stuff deleted my company maintains a mailing list which is regularly rented for one time use by the major software companies the method you are using to seed your junk mail isn t really effective bulk mailers regulary either send their databases to be cleaned by the ncoa which if you ve moved recently will revert back to the original xxx cool and in large mailings there will likely be a dupe of you and they ll pick the first and use the others for future mailings btw our list is currently one of the hottest lists for actual buyers of a ms windows utility product in the range and is available through direct media in ct at per name please let your direct mail marketing rep know about this thanks ted it is my impression that net etiquette does not allow companies to use the net to directly advertise their products in addition to improper etiquette this product is a mailing list used for generating junk mail am i correct in assuming this is improper and if so what can be done to penalize such an improper use dale thompson
misc.forsale	montreal olympics souvenirs montreal olympics philatelic souvenirs color illustrated booklet in french english containing all stamps issued for the games mint never hinged in slipcase over face value in stamps insured first class mailing unusual desk pad holder with olympic rings on the cover and the montreal stadium inside all the canadian olympic stamps are displayed on the cover under heavy plastic again over face value insured first class mailing order both for including insured delivery
misc.forsale	cpm c stuff forsale forsale cpm computers model ampro a rev a with or without k floppy drives and system disks z processor unknown brand w miniscribe model hard drive height shugart model floppy drive keyboard system disks also shugart model floppy drives also commodore computer disk drive will sell in whole or in parts buyer pays shipping to make offers either email beers cs buffalo edu or call and ask for jonathan andrew
misc.forsale	re realistic pro hand held scanner i d offer for your scanner shipping at your expense payment to be sent by personal check within hours after receipt of goods or if you live nearby and can deliver payment in cash with hour advance notice so i can go to the bank if sent by mail i reserve the right to return it at my expense if when i check it out i find it to be defective in some way btw why would you sell such a fine scanner did you replace it with some other instrument or find it not to be satisfactory in some way mark thorson
misc.forsale	pc s chair typewriter in boston ibm ps meg hd disk drive extended keyboard mouse mouse pad dos dosshell excel windo s word amipro gre studyware b o zenith date systems supersport laptop computer w v ac recharger model hz dos disc drives for floppy carrying case manuals b o leather desk chairs black brown or both for olivetti manual typewriter tropical model incl characters for typing in italian language please reply via email or call me at my home number thanks jason jason boro jboro enterprise bih harvard edu center for clinical computing boston ma
misc.forsale	re printing date apr gmt from cozzlab garnet berkeley edu in article apr sarah albany edu me albnyvms bitnet writes advertises his printing business oh dear let me be the first on my block you have just violated one of the major shibboleths of the usenet groups nit is he unable to type the first h in this word you re not supposed to use a newsgroup to plug your own commercial enterprise of any kind people frequently get flamed for announcing they ve got a new book out i don t know whether this is an official usenet rule or just a long standing custom and it doesn t make much difference from a practical point of view as a matter of fact d j it does make a difference almost a half million new users joined the internet last year many of them are commercial businesses the ban on commercial use of internet is no more one should have the breeding not to post commercial material on an account provided by ones employer or school unless the provider of such account gives permission ha those of us who pay for internet access are constrained only by our innate good taste and no have no administrator to guide us jack previdi veni vidi fece p psilink com
misc.forsale	help how to get refund from visual images i participated a promotion by a company called visual images they sent me a award certificate three months ago and asked me to buy their promotion package in order to receive the major award they mislabled my address and i did not receive my package until one month ago i was mad and angry about how it took them so long to get my package so i wrote them a letter and requested for a refund they never return my letter i was lucky enough to find out their telephone number through operator and received the package i immediately returned the package and wrote them another letter to ask for refund the package was returned because they address they put on the package was incorrect i attempted to call them and learnd that they have changed their telephone number it took me at least phone calls to find out their new number but they refused to take any responsibility i spoke to their manager and she said she would call me back but she has not call yet but i was able to get their address from their front desk should i just go ahead and send the package or should i waite until they call me back i know there are several people on the net has experience with the same company i would like to know how they got their money back if you have similar experience please advise me thanks in advance douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	for sale karmann ghia karmann ghia this car is in excellent running condition mi on new engine new tires aug new clutch new carb original radio am fm upholstery in great shape burgundy exterior black interior this car has been well maintained with regular tune ups unfortunately the car s previous owner had a minor front end collision the right front nose is dented and patched up with bondo i have the hard to find part needed to repair this damage besides that damage the car is in excellent condition bo courtney email cst blueoak berkeley edu phone after on weekdays
misc.forsale	for sale nissan sentra nissan sentra o two door hatchback o red o am fm cassette o lots of new parts well maintained o very clean inside and out o looks and runs great o bo bob or tracy at please do not respond to this account
misc.forsale	horse breeding and saling dear sirs the private agricultural firm dina is breeding pedigree horses of sportmodel class mainly trakenensky gannoversky and thoroughbred horses we have heads of dams getters of trakeninsky and thoroughbread breeds colts of years old sport live stock of horses of concour class for passing the route with obstacles the firm has a warm stable made of brick arranged to place horses we have possibility to expand the field of activity and systematically prepare our horses of concour class for sale for hard currency the experienced staff of the firm internetional class master workes for breeding and training of horses additional investments are necessary to purchase of larger dam live stock construction of the riding house for training extra stables for two years our firm has been organizing hunting tourism of the territory of the national park not far from moscow about km we are also concerned in the development of trading connections on delivering food products clothes foot wear etc to russia our address russia obninsk pr marksa phone fax electronic mail dina litana obninsk su vyacheslav chereshnev
misc.forsale	san mateo duplex house for sale san mateo duplex houses for sale west side location alameda and hwy large lot x nice quiet location no front neighbor space for pool or jacuzzi spacious rooms cozy living room with fireplace only minutes from highways and and excellent schools shopping and transportation nearby unit one remodeled sq foot bedrooms baths large master suite den study eat in kitchen very large backyard fenced backyard hardwood floor wall to wall carpet marbel tile vinyl car garage car port washer and dryer hook up living room dinning combo totally remodeled unit two brand new construction sq foot bedroom bath fire place dinning room private yard private entry detached unit washer dryer living room barbeque patio all separet utilities from the city price by owner call medi amadi at eves days baths
misc.forsale	wanted restaurant equipment wanted restaurant equipment for starting a new restaurant burner stove hot plate fryer stainless steel tables shelves etc pots n pans and a number of other items if interested pl email shailesh shailesh potnis associate concurrent engineering research member of technical staff center west virginia university
misc.forsale	wanted refrigerator wanted refrigerator contact jamesl galaxy nsc com
misc.forsale	smith corona typewriter for sale model scm electric smith corona typewriter for sale model scm electric great for forms envelopes labels small things etc that you just can t do with your microcomputer built like a tank but not big nor that heavy a classic compact electric with padded storage bag no scratches enamel paint chips or dents cloth ribbon colours will accept best offer near selling for a friend so these are her instructions not mine rsvp to this account though make any other offers anyways i ll pass them along a single sheet feeder for the macintosh imagewriter ii would be acceptable in trade for example gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
misc.forsale	tapes sale most sale tapes for sale each and the shipping is included those tapes are year old and are hardly used so there should not be any problem with it i really want to sell them so make me a package offer if you wish to eagles the best of eagles eagles hotel california elton john sleeping with the past gloria estefan into the light james ingram the power of great music kenny g duo tones lethal weapon music from the motion picture mariah carey mtv unplugged ep michael bolton time love and tenderness the phantom of the opera genesis we can t dance phil collins but seriously queen the works queen live magic wilson phillips send me your offer please send your offer to koutd hirama hiram edu thanks you douglas kou hiram college hiram ohio
misc.forsale	genie garage door remote forsale i have a genie garage door transmitter forsale this unit is a three button station will operate three different door or gate openers has never been used normaly goes for im ask shipping if interested please email me mageors sdf lonestar org
misc.forsale	apology printing dear fellow usenet users i would like to give a formal apology for posting an advertisement about my printing business i did not intend this to be an advertisement but rather an offer for people on the usenet many of whom use printing on a regular basis i was not aware that this is not legal on the usenet i am only trying to put myself through college for those of you who requested information i will write to you privately for those of you who are having fun flooding my mailbox i think you can grow up to offer advice is one thing but to use profanity toward me is another thank you marc me albnyvms bitnet
misc.forsale	jfk autograph for sale serious inquiries only after hearing about the mcgovern house story on paul harvey i never had any idea how much it was worth the autograph is on a senate pass card and is signed john kennedy i don t remember if it was signed senator john kennedy or whether or not it was dated because i haven t looked at it in quite a while currently it is in a safety deposit box i would rather sell to a private collector rather then go through an auction house such as christy s since that would tend to take away from the profit if you or any collector you may know has an interest in this please send me an e mail expressing your interest i will see what i can do to make a scanned gif of it available to prospective buyers
misc.forsale	baud external modem mint box manual phonecord shipping dennis
misc.forsale	dbase iv for sale price reduced dbase iv for sale inch disks all registration included so you can upgrade to if you want manuals still shrinkwrapped disks only opened to verify they all work asking or best offer
misc.forsale	for sale ems freq shifter this is yet for a friend again ems freq shifter the machine that made those d swirling guitar effects way back in the s spacial panner with harmonic shifting very rare a collectors item this is the last unit ems ever made rack mountable mono in up down signals out with seperate pan out and sine unsine voltage outs vco input too to control lfo if interested contact kevin before pm pst california at and make an offer do not reply to this account have a nice day h e y b e r e n xorcist cyberden sf ca us the cyberden public access waffle usenet system
misc.forsale	various computer audio video items wanted as of unless otherwise noted i am mainly interested in used items if you have any of the following for sale please contact me email mbeck vtssi vt edu phone usmail michael beck progress street e blacksburg virginia please give as much info as possible brand age condition etc wanted as of am computer equip cheap tape drive pretty much any kind used memory for ps model z new or used macintosh computer mhz chip new or used colorado tape drive megabyte preferr w tapes used key at keyboard high density mb disk drive printer oms or hp laser or hp deskjet series printer pin or deskjet high density mb disk drive external adaptec scsi bit hd fd controller used piggy back memory expansion for intel inboard mb ide hard drive monitor resolution dot pitch or better digital mult xt s at s and laptop systems to go to russia non computer equip drum set mult amps for a band tv or bigger stereo vcr heads stereo receiver watts or more w dolby prologic surround sound capability bed full or queen sized local offers only please desk local offers only please due to shipping constraints
misc.forsale	video camera amiga for sale as of if you are interested in any of the following please contact me email mbeck vtssi vt edu phone usmail michael beck progress street e blacksburg virginia for sale as of am panasonic af x ccd omnimovie camcorder vhs hq high speed shutter flying erase head ca years old but only used very lightly date time stamp counter memory rec review fade back light auto manual focus built in microphone jack for external microphone comes with sturdy aluminum hardplastic carrying case long x wide x high shoulder strap power adaptor battery charger battery pack remote recording controller uhf vhf cable adaptor audio video cables and adaptor aproximate dimensions measured around outmost features long x wide x high w handle asking price best offer new price amiga ux mhz unix compatible machine w meg hard drive meg ram no monitor keyboard esc and keys broken asking price obo mult proteon p token ring cards sold at t portable cellular phone model asking price sold for listed at new sold compaq lte laptop contact for details best offer so far sold for
misc.forsale	re cellular phone portable for sale i offer shipment at seller s expense payment as personal check sent by u s mail within hours after receiving goods i reserve the right to return the goods at my expense if i find them to be defective or otherwise unacceptable when i receive them either the merchandise or the check would be mailed within hours mark thorson
misc.forsale	bware of jayhayes deleware had a deal with jay hayes from deleware and was ripped off do not deal with this guy and if you know him go to his door with a bat he lives in deleware and i will post his full address later as well as his phone number in case any on e else wants to call and leave nasty messages he will not return email and he will not return my phone calls i left a message iwth hgis roomate to call collect and hes not man enough he still maintains net privilages can we somehow get this turkey off the net da
misc.forsale	toolwork mpc encyclopedia on cd rom i have the following program on cd rom forsale toolwork mpc encyclopedia on cd rom multimedia brand new shrink wrapped asking obo send reply to sam ocf berkeley edu thank you
misc.forsale	portable color television for sale hello everyone i have a casio tv lcd color television for sale it is in mint condition retail is but i m looking to get about of that for it tops highest bidder in a week gets it assuming the highest bidder is at least tv comes with black case and uses aa batteries they also sell ac adaptor it has external jack for phones and external antenna etc the picture is very good and it has electronic tuning so you don t have to screw with tuning a picture in etc i have the box and all documentation this has seen less than hours use as i have all but sworn off tv best regards jack waters ii
misc.forsale	quantum scsi mb hard drive for sale hi i have a quantum prodrive lps mb scsi hard drive for sale it came with my maciisi and was replaced by a larger hard drive in great working condition fast and quiet never had a problem asking cod shipping or reasonable offer also for sale with the drive brand new mounting bracket for macii or macse it also includes scsi data and power cable with the hd please reply with email or call and leave message thanks ding kai chen dcg uxa cso uiuc edu uiuc classifieds uiuc classifieds computer misc forsale misc forsale computer misc forsale computer mac misc forsale computer other misc forsale computer pc clone
misc.forsale	for sale airline ticket for states canada for sale northwest airline fly write ticket for travel within the states and canada from anywhere in the country one way each round trip this ticket has no restrictions and is fully transferable however travel has to be completed buy june email arvind acuson com
misc.forsale	pin printer toshiba p sl track friction feeds lcd display months old like new sample print out sheet geoworks available emulaser a month old program by vertisoft makes print out look like an inkjet print out firm
misc.forsale	laptop mitsbishi laptop mp l mhz switchable m ram installed backlit cga ext cga mga m hh hdd m fdd com lpt ports complete manual set built like a tank excellent cosmetic cond dark gray used very lightly problems hdd stops working lcd sometimes doesn t work ext cag mga works best offer
misc.forsale	re drive for sale honda xr r dirt bike bought new from dealer in ridden only hours garage kept and well cared for the bike is in mint condition perfect size for lady or young adult price firm you will not be disappointed ohio kentucky indiana inquiries preferred please work leave voicemail please rob davis cincinnati ohio again this is a new bike
misc.forsale	for sale ibm wheelwriter i just won an ibm wheelwriter typewriter in a raffle here on campus since i have a nice computer and really need the cash i m putting it up for sale i have an offer from a local reseller for best offer above that plus shipping brian northwestern university economics international studies b olson nwu edu brian david olson bdolson casbah acns nwu edu bdolson cica es bdolson merle acns nwu edu bdolson sevaxu cica es
misc.forsale	update pioneer deh m car cd reciever for sale features include detachable face x watt amplifier infra red remote times oversampling bit dac supertuner iv fm and am presets best station memory cd changer controller loud switch clock all original packaging asking or best offer this cd reciever is a very nice radio great condition the remote comes in very handy you wouldn t think it would top of the line cd reciever interested send email to brion sohn at easu orion oac uci edu any resonable offers will be considered latest offer including shipping
misc.forsale	mccartney concert tickets for sale four tickets available for the paul mccartney concert at the alamo dome in san antonio tx on may th ground floor seats will sell all four or in pairs each e mail dennisod itx isc com
misc.forsale	akg electrostatic dynamic headphones for sale i have a pair of akg headphones for sale they are an electrostatic dyanmic headphone a dynamic element for the bottom end and an electrostatic for the high end they are very comfortable and sound very nice they are in like new condition i would like cdn for the pair brett maraldo unit research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv uwaterloo ca uunet clyde utai watserv bmaraldo
misc.forsale	ampex recording tape for sale i have full reels of ampex recording tape this tape was used once at ips and carefully stored all reel include an ampex tape band the tape has not been bulk erased to my knowledge the history of the tape in know and available upon request jmar in toronto sells new for tax canadian i would like cdn reel which will include postage brett maraldo plexus productions ps the reels are long standard thickness unit research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv uwaterloo ca uunet clyde utai watserv bmaraldo
misc.forsale	wizard oz pen based organizer pc link for sale for sale pen based electronic organizer brand new sharp wizard oz with pc link software and cable ounces measures x x fits in most pockets k ram k available to user pen touch screen input for pointing and drawing keyboard big enough to touch type on x screen windows pop up menus excellent scheduler with alarms telephone directories user configurable databases full word processor with formatting drawing utility outliner to do list calculator clock calendar terminal emulatorw dialing directory directory filing system serial port infrared port ic card slot uses aaa batteries about months of daily use all manuals organizer link ii software and cable for exchanging data between wizard and a pc or best offer for both i ll pay shipping steven m friedman horizon institute for policy solutions mail path smf s virginia bitnet voice path
misc.forsale	tcd d dat walkman for sale i recently backed out of purchasing an almost unused sony tcd d dat walkman having found someone else who has a unit i personally prefer and am paying more for however it s still a heck of a machine for the price it is quite rugged and many people out there swear by it it s probably the most popular walkman style dat machine out there anyway the guy selling it is bryan davis bdavis netcom com and here s what he told me here is what is included tcd d datman rca to stereo plug cables one for analog input one for analog output optical digital i o cable one lead for input one for output a copy of my sales receipt with a note about your purchase the unit is still under factory warrantee ac adaptor battery charger rechargable battery i paid tax for it so i hope you don t mind if i keep the minute tape it came with i have some samples on it by the way he spent at least too much for it unless he s including an extended warranty which is advised for dat machines since it costs about to replace the head when it wears out and it probably will within years if you use it a lot davisonj i m not going to quote my sale price for him that would not be nice send him mail and ask him what he wants again i ve used the tcd d and i have to say that i can certainly understand why it is as popular as it is i ve been using one for a little while and although i had some problems with it recently i should also point out that the particular one i was using had been on the road for two years and had truly been used during that time this is the same exact dat machine that was lugged around the u s and canada to record the jazz butcher conspiracy for their recent live album bryan davis says i know at least half a dozen professional musicians and record labels in s f who use that model and have been for a while with no reported problem my problem is that everyone i know already has one nuff said the reason i m not getting it is that i found someone else selling me a unit that features phono plug spdif i o instead of optical i don t have any optical ports on my equipment but you the reader might and it also has some other bells whistles that the tcd d doesn t i am also paying more for the alternative note that phono plug to optical spdif adapters are available if you absolutely must have one of course it has scms all consumer decks do so do sony minidiscs by the way anyway if you re interested get in touch with bdavis netcom com john davison davisonj ecn purdue edu
misc.forsale	hallicrafters s i have a hallicrafters s sw radio for sale worked the last time i tried it out make offer md michael p deignan sex is hereditary if your domain mpd anomaly sbs com parents never had it chances at tnet are you won t either telebit
misc.forsale	son of genuine vinyl records sale thank you all for requesting my list and thank you again if you purchased vinyl from me lotsa more vinyl leftover for sale vinyl looking for a new home please buy some more so i can stop running this ad bunches of vinyl records for sale including a metal acetate no not heavy metal music but em all and get amazing deal email me for big list and details mass usa arthur noguerola vos stratus com
misc.forsale	fortegraph emulator card what s this someone gave me this brand new card i am thinking to sell it cuz i don t need it but the problem is that i don t even know what this is this was made by forte communications co it has board combined together looks wierd to me and has pin ports one male and one female and also has a round port like bnc not sure this was made in and has a fortegraph emulator diagnostic disk with it has anyone here ever seen this or known what this is appreciate your help in advance eric
misc.forsale	re wanted trombone for a beginner in article qu p aam fnnews fnal gov greg schuweiler schuweiler fnal gov writes would like to purchase a trombone for a year old because this really really want i want to play daddy i ll practice everyday and i ll even keep my room really clean well he must really mean it would like to find a used one please e mail me at schuweiler fnal gov greg schuweiler schuweiler fnal gov i ve got a used one for sale i used it in high school and just don t have the occasion to get it out and play it anymore email me and we can work out something on it i can t get email to you for some reason david david b snyder logicon technical services inc dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb af mil wright patterson air force base dayton ohio usa it is said that god doesn t subtract from ones time on earth those hours spent flying cessna n the lady in waiting owner operator opinions expressed are my own and not those of logicon or the usaf
misc.forsale	golf shoes size used pair of golf shoes size good shape no holes etc o b o plus shipping david david b snyder logicon technical services inc dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb af mil wright patterson air force base dayton ohio usa it is said that god doesn t subtract from ones time on earth those hours spent flying cessna n the lady in waiting owner operator opinions expressed are my own and not those of logicon or the usaf
misc.forsale	snes games for sale trade i have the following games for sale or trade for other snes or genesis megadrive games all have instructions and box except where stated sfc mickeys magical quest no instructions a suzukis super grandprix legend of the mystical ninja uk snes out of this world another world super soccer us snes krustys fun house irem skins golf super tennis currently under offer i will sell for us for uk pounds cheers jonathan onathan phone x address department of computing fax lancaster university e mail jonathan comp lancs ac uk lancaster lancs u k
misc.forsale	darkroom supplies enlarger for sale besler c ii enlarger including filters negative carriers darkroom supplies containers trays thermometer beakers paper focuser etc i also have paper chemicals but i think these are past expiration date everything is in great working condition i bought it about a year ago and it has served its purpose well it hasn t been used it in a few months because i don t have the time or money to keep up with it and its just sitting in my bathroom taking up space i d like to use so i d like to sell it to someone who would use it rather than it collect dust in my bathroom if you are interested in the whole package i will sell everything including shipping for if you have something else in mind i m open to suggestions please reply to this account thank you michelle
misc.forsale	telepath fax modem for gateway gateway telepath fax modem for gateway computer with crosstalk winfax pro for windows never used shipped from gateway hong
misc.forsale	re microsoft dos upgrade for sale in article ahall apr slothrop fmrco com ahall fmrco com andrew hall writes in article c rvnz we unx sas com sasjhc maxwell unx sas com joe croos writes yuanchie eve usc edu yuan chieh hsu writes ms dos upgrade for sale best offer over opened unregistered gee my copy of pc magazine states that the upgrade is retailing for egghead across the street sells it for and i m going that way after work compusa has it for xx in boston i will sell it for including shipping walter g seefeld by the dawn s early light n jackson st a by all i know is right starkville ms we re going to reap what we have sown n qxr jackson brown
misc.forsale	piano free to charity i have one of those heavy antique upright pianos i would like to contribute to any charity with muscle enough to get it out of my house if i get no response from a charity i will sell to for you haul it is in good shape needs tuning i m in south durham county ed mcadams data general corporation mcadams dg rtp dg com t w alexander drive backbone mcnc rti dg rtp mcadams research triangle park nc ed mcadams data general corporation mcadams dg rtp dg com t w alexander drive backbone mcnc rti dg rtp mcadams research triangle park nc
misc.forsale	new stereo system for sale month old stereo system for sale luxman r receiver onkyo ta rw tape deck and polk monitor m book shelf speakers are for sale receiver has year warranty and all equipment is in excellent condition paid for the system and willing to consider the best offer will sell seperate pieces also if desired please send best offer to suraj cs jhu edu speakers polk monitor m bookshelf speakers paid pair willing to consider best offer receiver luxman r receiver with year yes years warranty paid willing to consider best offer full remote pairs of speaker connections watts per channel but drives like a watts per channel has all the standard features and more tape deck onkyo ta rw tape deck paid willing to consider best offer dual cassette dolby b c and hx pro input level control for recording auto reverse both sides has all standard features send e mail with best offer to suraj cs jhu edu suraj
misc.forsale	for sale pontiac grand prix se for sale pontiac grand prix se white white rims gray interior k miles mostly highway litre v multi port fuel injected engine speed manual transmission options include a c rear defogger power steering power brakes power windows power locks power mirrors cruise control power glass moonroof with sunshade power seat recliner driver s power seat comfort lumbar headrest both am fm cassette stero electronic monitor service system with graphic compass stereo controls duplicated on steering wheel remote keyless entry and others asking the car looks and rides like it just rolled off of the dealers lot it has been garaged and pampered it gets an average of mpg highway sometimes better city is around mpg depending on how it is driven selling because of baby coming soon need door family car will consider trade or partial trade with ford taurus mercury sable or door pontiac grand am or similar american car contact mike at home work or michaelq tlaloc sw stratus com
misc.forsale	v a power supplies f obo two lh research sm power supplies series sm w v a currently wired for vac control lines sense on off pwr fail high lo margin current monitor list price from lh research each qty asking for the pair obo steve glicker steve titan tsd arlut utexas edu
misc.forsale	sony cardiscman forsale i have a used sony d k cardiscman for sale i bought it new on june it still has the one year warranty intact specifications sony s best car discman perfect condition x oversampling bit d a converter beam laser pickup dual color display dsp sound processing bass boost and dds modes w levels of effect way repeat hold mode can also run on just aa batteries track programming w repeat random play w delete fused cigarette lighter adapter could save the player if something goes wrong accesories headphone plug line out jack sony mdr headphones ac power adapter patch cord for home use automobile mouting plate car conecting pack remote control great for home use carrying case extra fuses this unit is great to use in any car can be moved easily between vehicles works well in home or car just need cigaraette lighter outlet and a cassette player i have everything that it came with manuals packaging receipts etc the unit is in perfect condition with normal well taken care of use extremely versatile and manuverable unit that can be used anywhere i am asking for the system and extras please e mail if interested brent wagner wagnerbm sage cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	scanning radio realistic pro was sell for article of alt radio scanner path usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu aj from aj cleveland freenet edu aaron m barnes newsgroups alt radio scanner subject realistic pro for sale was sell for obo date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland ohio usa lines message id r oo du usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host slc ins cwru edu hello i have a realistic pro scanner for sale here is a small desc ription programible chanels fully detailed backlighted digital display headphone jack antenna jack removable telescoping antenna auto search coverage mhz mhz mhz it originally cost but i will sell for thank you buchanan in fear the goverment that fears your guns without the nd amendment we cannot guarantee ou r freedoms aj cleveland freenet edu buchanan in fear the goverment that fears your guns without the nd amendment we cannot guarantee ou r freedoms aj cleveland freenet edu
misc.forsale	new stereo system components for sale month old stereo system for sale luxman r receiver onkyo ta rw tape deck and polk monitor m book shelf speakers are for sale receiver has year warranty and all equipment is in excellent condition paid for the system and willing to consider the best offer will sell seperate pieces also if desired please send best offer to suraj cs jhu edu speakers polk monitor m bookshelf speakers paid pair willing to consider best offer receiver luxman r receiver with year yes years warranty paid willing to consider best offer full remote pairs of speaker connections watts per channel but drives like a watts per channel has all the standard features and more tape deck onkyo ta rw tape deck paid willing to consider best offer dual cassette dolby b c and hx pro input level control for recording auto reverse both sides has all standard features send e mail with best offer to suraj cs jhu edu suraj
misc.forsale	a memory needed wanted amiga memory expander any size at least meg populated or not eg ax insider etc needed desperately cash deal or trade for mnp everex evercom e external modem pc internal modem pp sa v bis external modem apple ii parts lots of pc cards panasonic video ccd video camera bl w lenses great for digi view etc ccd no lens no burn in send email asap the heartbeat of america yesterdays camaro z tfoley camaro uucp call the camaro linux pub access site usrobotics hst note please no ftpmail or mailing lists or the host gets annoyed
misc.forsale	amplifiers and speakers for sale of course linear power model iq channel automotive stereo amplifier watts peak per channel ohm stable fidelity tested you pay shipping pair two mobile authority woofers inch inch voice coil oz magnet watt peak power handeling ohms for both you pay shipping will not sell seperatly reply thru e mail to karl r schimmel the wichita state university krschimm at twsuvax krschimm wsuhub uc twsu edu
misc.forsale	olivetti xt i am selling an at t xt compatible it comes with a green screen cga monitor k floppy drive and a megabyte hard drive you would think it was brand new from the condition it s in asking price is shipping reply via e mail if interested
misc.forsale	vhs movie for sale vhs movie for sale dance with wovies the tape is new and just open buyer pay shipping cost if you are interested please send your offer to koutd hirama hiram edu thanks douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	re vhs movie for sale in article apr hirama hiram edu koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou writes vhs movie for sale dance with wovies what the hell ios a wovie wovy sp from there to here from here to there funny things are everywhere dr suess jonathan sawitsky some random wierdo martimer wpi wpi edu
misc.forsale	c system for sale make offer for sale complete package only commodore c computer like new in the box with power supply and owners manuals commodore c disk drive like new in the box and owners manual commodore color monitor like new and owners manual panasonic kxp dot matrix printer like new and owners manual printer interface for panasonic printer fastload cartridge huge stack of books on c programming make a reasonable offer and i ll throw in disks of software please reply in e mail joachim nave nave jato jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory pasadena california disclaimer no i don t speak for jpl
misc.forsale	re vhs movie for sale in article qvk u jnu bigboote wpi edu martimer jaguar wpi edu the random one writes in article apr hirama hiram edu koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou writes vhs movie for sale dance with wovies what the hell ios a wovie wovy sp it s one of those animals you dance with but seriously i saw this video for sale brand new at palmer video for tx i guess if i could resell them for i would dance like a wovie
misc.forsale	wanted hp s or hp sx as the subject says looking for a hp s or perferiably hp sx please e mail replies thanks steven eckwielen bitnet she ritvax internet she ritvax isc rit edu uucp rutgers rochester rit ritvax she
misc.forsale	radar detector whistler x k ka whistler spectrum se x k ka pulse protection good condition purchased for asking for jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton oh e mail jyow desire wright edu
misc.forsale	camera olympus stylus super small olympus stylus mm pocket sized red eye reduction timer fully automatic time date stamp carrying case smallest camera in its class rated in consumer reports excellent condition and only months old worth purchased for selling for jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton oh e mail jyow desire wright edu
misc.forsale	re dx cpu chip for sale cyrix amd s not intel clones beware from what i understand neither the amd or cyrix s are clones of the intel they are using the name because they run as fast as a intel they do not have exactly the same instuction set nor do they fit into the same socket most are very fast s without coprocessors amd recent won the appeal against intel to use their microcode so they should be putting out real chips in the near future marc mallen wyvern wyvern com
misc.forsale	re vhs movie for sale in article qvk u jnu bigboote wpi edu martimer jaguar wpi edu the random one writes dance with wovies what the hell ios a wovie wovy sp what the hell is ios fix your own typos before you blame others go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	re dx cpu chip for sale this entire dispute over a chip has deluged this newsgroup with a lot of posts that have nothing to sell it all harkens back to a certain user s post of a month or so ago stop posting computer equipment here save it for the computer forsale newsgroups if you don t get the computer forsale newsgroups then ask your sysadmin to try to subscribe to it at your location otherwise knock it off
misc.forsale	mac se forsale this is a repost of an earlier thanks to several of you for offering advise on realistic prices mac se megs ram meg hard disk k floppy in absolutely perfect condition includes word pagemaker quark xpress quicken and the latest versions of about a dozen other programs price
misc.forsale	canon camera system for sale i have the following canon items for sale the condition is listed as numerical indicates like new condition canon t body multiprogram ae dual metering system build in motor drive etc canon fd mm f canon fd mm f with canon bt hood excellent portrait lens osawa mm f zoom made in japan with soft case soligor mm f macro zoom japan with hard case vivitar sms d dedicated thyristor flash in box with manual asking obo s h not included if interested e mail huawang src umd edu or call
misc.forsale	gig fujitsu disk drive for sale gigabyte fujitsu disk drive internal drive model m a uses either a scsi or edi interface on your disk controller card brand new still in box never used only compare to in cheapest mail order catalogs posted for a friend pleade respond to jbredt athena
misc.forsale	hard drive for sale i had posted this before but the buyer fell through so here goes again western digital caviar meg ide hd inch drive has built in cache i believe it s k but i m not positive still in unopened original static bag asking obo
misc.forsale	sega cd forsale ok folks i am in need for some money to purchase a video game backup unit so i have decided to let go my sega cd unit heres the deal sega genesis cd rom unit o playes sega cd games o playes regular cd s o playes cd g s cd s w graphics o comes w cd s pack ins o sega s hot hits regular cd w music o rock paintings cd g music w graphics karoki like o sol feace shooter o sherlock holmes mystery clue book no docs o sega classics streets of rage revenge of shinobi columns golden axe no docs o box and documents cd unit included all games comes w jewels and documentation unless otherwise specified other games o cobra command docs have water dammage o road avenger weeks old o night trap no docs o all games come w jewels and documentation unless otherwise specified im going to sell all of this to the highest bidder as of i would like to start all of the above at or trade for a genesis snes video backup unit if you would like to bid or make an offer just drop me some mail i will keep everone informed of what the current bids are foxfire foxfire access digex com
misc.forsale	bare mb micronics system reduced bare case a power supply and a motherboard with ram and a coprocessor everything else is yours to add as you like the motherboard us made micronics slot motherboard with intel dx mhz cpu kb sram cache mb us ram using x mb simms worth alone cyrix d math coprocessor worth alone norton si rating of latest version phoenix bios the case power supply standard desktop case watt power supply with the usual connectors room for five floppy hard drives three visible two internal new micronics cpus often command a several hundred dollar premium over clone motherboards because they are us made use high quality components and are known to be both very reliable and compatible they have been oemed in systems sold by both gateway and zeos at various points in the past check out the ads in the back pages of byte or pc magazine if you want to see this price differential for yourself price complete less if you don t want need the case and power supply the board is fully guaranteed email for further details or for any questions thanks david ruggiero jdavid halcyon com seattle wa home of the moss people
misc.forsale	video audio computer equipment for sale time for some spring cleaning so the following items are up for sale roland mt multi timbre sound module la synthesis upto simultaneous voices preset timbres char backlit lcd display midi in out thru reference card stereo output etc great for games that support it music on the mt is far superior to any sound card experimenting with midi or for adding additional sounds to your midi setup shipping canon rc xapshot still video camera system includes camera carrying pouch battery pack battery charger ac adapter video cables two floppies each disk holds pictures for pics total manuals etc video output is standard ntsc composite and can be sent to any ntsc device e g to a television for direct viewing of your pictures to a vcr to record a slideshow to a computer video digitizer to save manipulate the pictures on a computer system shipping ambico video enhancer audio mixer three line stereo audio mixer with microphone input and master volume slider w video enhancer to boost sharpen video images when dubbing from vcr vcr camcorder vcr etc shipping baud pc internal modem shipping quantum mb internal prodrive hard disk this unit has recently turned unreliable and erratic in usage could be a simple easily fixed problem or a major problem but at any rate i don t have the time to find out where the problem lies if you want to take a risk on it you can have it for shipping if interested in any of the above items please email me s hsieh zeno ccwf cc utexas edu
misc.forsale	re video audio computer equipment for sale on apr i wrote quantum mb internal prodrive hard disk this unit has recently turned unreliable and erratic in usage could be a simple easily fixed problem or a major problem but at any rate i don t have the time to find out where the problem lies if you want to take a risk on it you can have it for shipping forgot to mention that the above mentioned quantum is a scsi drive s hsieh zeno ccwf cc utexas edu
misc.forsale	dragon s lair ii space ace arcade games for sale dragon s lair ii complete or laser disc motherboard joystick buttons graphics for arcade cabinet brick power supply space ace complete or laser disc motherboard joystick buttons graphics for arcade cabinet brick power supply both space ace and dragon s lair ii these games require a sony laserdisc player the nice thing about this player is that you can also watch normal laserdisc movies on it as well i have one which i will sell for by itself with a purchase of one complete system or if you buy both systems i currently run this into my entertainment center i have it housed in a pc computer case with with its own fan and power supply i run the audio into my stereo system and the laserdisc runs directly into the t v i have made a mount for the joysticks and the buttons first person who buys both games will get it all otherwise you have to do it yourself if you would prefer to have it all housed in a normal arcade cabinet this can be done as well the graphics will go nicely along the sides and front of the cabinet everything works perfectly the laserdisc player has an rs port which you can use to develop your own multimedia type applications the laserdiscs have been stored in a safe place and have no scratches on them if you are interested please email me thanks soren soren burkhart purdue university yes well that is just the sort of a i robotics blink headed pig ignorance i have zoron en ecn purdue edu come to expect from you non creative garbage john cleese monty python
misc.forsale	re unix pc software for sale 
misc.forsale	amiga software for sale i have the following amiga software for sale provideo gold amigavision b e s t plan it spreadsheet still in shrinkwrap superback hard drive backup certificate maker add s h to the above and its yours email me at the address listed below thanx dennis l neal dlneal cbda apgea army mil
misc.forsale	pin printer for sale i have the star micronics sg pin printer for sale i have used with the amiga and ibm computers and it works great i will throw in a cable and vinyl cover for plus shipping first email gets it thanx dennis l neal dlneal cbda apgea army mil i have gone to a laser printer is the only reason i am selling
misc.forsale	casio b o s s for sale i have a casio b o s s sf digital dairy organizer for sale the unit has kb with the expansion card slot very good condition asking plus shipping marc drmsr pitt edu
misc.forsale	borland software for sale cheap for sale turbo pascal all original manuals and disks obo shipping borland paradox with tall boxed manual set kallista desktop all original disks obo shipping borland paradox opened but never used all manuals disks obo shipping borland quattro pro dos all manuals disks obo shipping e mail or phone if interested john hansen john c hansen hansen logdis hq aflc af mil i am working on cse wsu bitnet a suitable quote cse desire wright edu john hansen
misc.forsale	re maxtor info needed was re unix pc software for sale in article colinm cunews colinm max carleton ca colin mcfadyen writes does anyone know what the jumpers should be set to on the maxtor i have a that came off of a vs that i would like to use on a pc from the maxtor product specification and oem manual doc rev f page j j power xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx uuuu c c o o o o o o the only option you should jumper is the drive select shown as c c above there is also a drive power up option jumper elsewhere on the drive s board but the odds of that having been unset are slim since the b normally has only one hd you would jumper betwwwn c to select the first possible drive address if the is your second drive on the b then jumper between c thad floryan thad btr com thad cup portal com thad netcom com
misc.forsale	foot switches for sale i have foot switches for sale they re great for guitar amps and keyboards each is about in diameter with a or so cable i d like for both but make me an offer who knows jason settle down raise a family join the pta buy some sensible shoes and a chevrolet and party till you re broke and they drag you away it s ok al yankovic
misc.forsale	icom at for sale i am looking to sell my icom ic at and extras i have the following cm battery hs headset hs sa vox unit cigarette adapter leather case bc v wall charger ic bp battery also have one that needs a new cell i think its been a while it is in good condition has a scratch on the front that is not visible when in the leather case if you are interested make me an offer rich newsgrazer a nextstep tm news reader posting m uqr p n ve o g t fq c g w s ae e ec m eqm m g r i r w q c a f u s q w x p qt m q s r c x x s p eqt w s t c p x p uqt s m s c c qn vye s c f p f dd t o ven m r t r s ql uy e tt m a f at f s b h e m h f vql w i f z i tq b t y i rtq d v t m i rtq u fet i a f t a e ep a ae m b e i rtr v l r v r i ru f t r d m qs r h e n t t ye s f w e p d ai fll m et r b n vai i i det es en o v v n et n m h s w a h n h f f n t t es yo v i m fqe h x x ae qe h v s y ep u r i k g e f s d m me ue n f f r ep hm i va i b i
misc.forsale	items for sale must sell items for sale this package was bought throught a award give away company i attempted to cancel my order before i received the package but i was too late and the company refused to take the package back for refund i know the truth which i would never get my back but i wish to get my money back as close as possible here is the describtion of the package nishika d camera it takes very good picture never been opended or used it came with wide angle flesh carring case film and a instruction video it has four lens and created a d effect on a regular mm film jewelry it came with the package as additional gift bahama vacation voucher the voucher is good for two rt airfare to freeport the users get a special hotel rate of per person per night meals ground transfer hotel tax is not included las vegas reno orlando the voucher provides one rt airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals ground transfer hotel tax is not included the voucher is good for all locations but you can t travel to all places at once cancun mexico the voucher provides one rt airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals and ground transfer hotel tax is not included as usual i paid for the whole package so try not to be cold blooded when you make your offer details would be provided by request i do wish to sell the whole package at once so if you are just looking for the vacation vouchers i don t care if you sell the camera to other for a higher pric if you are interested in the camera you could treat the vacation vouchers as gift if you receive a letter in your mail box which says that you are selected to be part of the sweeptake and you have at least one out of five awards trust me you would get the exactly the same package as i did there is only one award which will be given away so don t bother even to call them back if you are really interested you could get it from me for a cheaper price and you could receive the package within a week i waited three months to get my first and final packages also they would ask for your credit card number and you have to pay for the interest to the credit card company so why spend more than you should when you could get them from me for a cheaper price if you are interested please reply to me as soon as posible i really wish to get this over with make me an offer if i am confortable with your offer i would send the package by u p s the next day morning more details could be given if you wish please contact me at koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college e mail address koutd hirama hiram edu
misc.forsale	cds for sale update cds for sale shipping is included barcelona gold freddie mercury tevin campbell en vogue inxs madonna eric clapton sarah brightman wayne s world queen red hot chili peppers alice cooper eric clapton extreme ii pronograffitti saturday night live band live from new york harry connick jr blue light sold just open dances with woives sold handel classical sold please send your reply to koutd hirama hiram edu package deal is welcome douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	os extended services for sale cheap for sale os extended services extended database support extended networking support remote host support extended communication support plus a copy of os the es package is brand new and uninstalled all manuals disks etc are included the es package retails for with os selling for or something like that i ll let both of them go for my needs changed thus eliminating my need for the package once i bought it if interested please email me at mark teskey teskey plains nodak edu mark w teskey o internet teskey plains nodak edu stayin uucp uunet plains teskey alive hi i am a signature virus copy me into your signature to join in
misc.forsale	books for sale someone please buy these books i am not asking much just make me an offer and i will probably take it writing good software in fortran graham smith the holt handbook by kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications r petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send me your offers via email at chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	mb external fd for ps extremely cheap subject external fd for ps extremely cheap i have a brand new external floppy drive for ps still in the box i will sell it for shipping firm which is half of the market price check page of computer shopper apr issue the price is there please let me know if you are interested ailin
misc.forsale	ld ext floppy drive for mac extremely cheap i have a brand new low density floppy drive for mac it comes with a brand new apple macintosh ii pc drive card so that you can hook the drive up to the card it allows you to use dos formatted disks i am selling it for abt retail price ailin buyers pay shipping
misc.forsale	unix sale unix unix unix unix unix unix unix forsale esix unix system v release new user license system unlimited user license system user license system with dev kit unlimited user license system with dev kit the above systems include all of the floppies or tapes and instalation manuals they are new and have never been installed before market value for the above systems is about us if you are interested please contact me at thanks mike mike budlanski canrem com canada remote systems toronto ontario
misc.forsale	re jazz cd sale trade sell it for then i can t really offer more than at this point thanks jon
misc.forsale	re classic cds sale hey i can t send mail to you so could you please resend me your address i lost it for h in moscow thanks jon
misc.forsale	lots of cds for sale i have a lot of cds for sale prices are per cd and per cd single cds are noted by cd and cd singles by cds please include extra per cd for s h costs if you want to buy a lot of them then we ll work out a deal with the shipping costs type group title cds boys to men motown philly cds c c music factory keep it comin cds moby go remixes cds quadrophonia schizophrenia cds swing out sister not gonna change cds recoil faith healer cds seal the beginning cds transvision vamp tranvision vamp cds c c music factory gonna make u sweat cds nitzer ebb godhead cds roxette how do you do cds b s good stuff cds duran duran violence of summer cds nitzer ebb as is cds vanessa williams running back to you cd seal seal cd lfo frequencies cd morissey kill uncle cd underworld change the weather cd jody watley you wanna dance with me cd dead or alive fan the flame cd transvision vamp velveteen cd adam ant manners physique cd fine young cannibals the raw the remix cd black box dreamland cd civilles cole greatest remixes vol cd black box mixed up cd scorpions the best of rockers ballads cd a m underground dance jam harder dan church quote only god can make a tree but it took a man box cs mail to invent dwarf tossing socorro nm email dchurch nmt edu e hobbs
misc.forsale	klipsch forte spkrs sale item klipsch forte speakers condition mint age months old price pair retail pair these speakers are in perfect condition and used only in audiophile system they are floor standing and come with all the original packagaing and literature they are also still under warranty if you are interested or have any questions please feel free to e mail pc o andrew cmu edu or call me at home thanks jon
misc.forsale	squirrel hill studio squirrel hill studio efficiency available in mid may my lease is expiring on perfect for someone looking for temporary housing or someone who wants to stay beyond july nice short walk to cmu month plenty of parking space on street quiet neighborhood nearly new carpet call
misc.forsale	syquest internal drive with cartridges sale or trade this drive is less than one year old the cartridges have all been bought since then all is in excellent condition and still under warranty due to a change in system use i now need a large contiguous drive offer includes sydos i internal drive scsi adapter card and cables all original documentation software all original packaging cartridges totalling over mb no bad sectors or defects the installation was a breeze on my clone i will trade for something near mb ide or sell for i will also consider trading for mx pin simms at ns walter g seefeld by the dawn s early light n jackson st a by all i know is right starkville ms we re going to reap what we have sown n qxr jackson brown
misc.forsale	rasterops xl i have a video board for sale for macintosh nu bus machines my other deal fell through i am asking rasterops xl x x this was incorrectly posted as x before x x hz hz x make offers by mail rj kohlhepp novell systems staff kohlhepp cae wisc edu computer aided engineering
misc.forsale	sci fi books for sale best offer i would like to sell the following sci fi books at best offer if you are interested please email an offer and be sure to include shipping and handling i prefer not to ship cod but if you purchase or more i will consider han solo and the lost legacy han solo s revenge han solo at stars end splinter in the minds eye the empire strikes back star wars star trek the motion picture star trek wrath of kahn the official star trek trivia book star trek reader vol i star trek reader vol ii these are the book form of the star trek reader vol iii original tv series star trek reader vol iv dune dune messiah children of dune god emperor of dune altered states alien close encounters of the third kind dragonslayer the mists of avalon the compleat book of sowrds the lost swords a space odyssey odyssey ii odyssey iii barlowes complete guide to extratresstials again best offer and don t be shy thanks loyd seq uncwil edu amiga tower megs hd space vxl mhz w mhz fpu megs bit ram supra zi modem sony kv cr monitor wangtek meg tb
misc.forsale	klipsch kg speakers like new shipping one pair of kg s in oak finish with black grilles includes original packaging shipping firm walter g seefeld by the dawn s early light n jackson st a by all i know is right starkville ms we re going to reap what we have sown n qxr jackson brown
misc.forsale	turbografx system for sale take everything for turbografx base unit works like new with controller ac adapter antenna hookup games kieth courage victory run fantasy zone military madness battle royal legendary axe blazing lasers bloody wolf will sell games separatley at each please call mike day eves
misc.forsale	eric bosco where are you eric send me email with your address i lost it i ve reconsidered kevin
misc.forsale	typewriter w computer interface i have the following item for sale electronic typewriter panasonic kt with k memory small lcd display i m selling it bundled with a panasonic computer interface rpk for this typewriter you can connect it to any pc parallel port sorry no cable it works perfect even in windows tty printer it s great if you need to send letter with typewriter look in stand alone mode it has pitches and several effects like underline bold overstrike built in dictionary and character word line correction asking for both the typewriter and the interface jorge lach sun microsystems computer corporation jorge lach east sun com east coast division chelmsford ma
misc.forsale	wanted summer housing seattle univ of washington summer housing needed at university of washington seattle hi i am looking for a place to stay for the summer at the university of washington seattle where i would be doing an internship if any of you from uofw seattle has got some kind of space for summer sublet please send an email call to me i expect to start my internship in the first week of june koshy george george cs umass edu koshy george puffton village amherst ma h o
misc.forsale	casio cz key synth bo ok i ve done a little research and the price i ve been asking was a bit high so casio cz synthesizer or best offer features uses fm modulation to create sounds programmable adsr envelopes for each of dca s amplitude dcw s pitch like a vcf and dco s waveform like vco with up to steps for each preset sounds more in memory more still in ram cartridge stubby keys pitch bend wheel midi in out ports includes all the manuals you could ever want ac adapter can use d batteries line cord ram cartridge holds additional sounds i ll throw in a bunch of sheet music and play rock keyboards too christopher holmes do not insert this email in the ear canal terminals development group my evil twin blew up the world trade center data general corporation and all i got was this stupid sig file westboro ma internet holmes mrx webo dg com
misc.forsale	windows new for sale i have a windows package for sale new stil in shrink wrapped i am asking for i will consider to trade a used m floppy drive leave a message if interested
misc.forsale	slide projectors trade for photo equipments there are many people want to buy my kodak autofocus carousel projectors but i don t have lenses or remote to sell they prefer to buy a projector with all accessaries so i have to post another news asking for lenses to fit those kodak slide projectors i am willing to give away singer caramate ii or singer caramete sp w built in unremovable lens built in casette player speaker new hr bulb try to trade for kodak projector lenses each projector viewer will equal trade for or kodak projector lenses depend on the focal length i will pay for the shipping for singer projector viewer since i don t need those singer projectors if you have some mm slr system you don t need i am willing to do the trade as well yuesea
misc.forsale	oscilloscope for sale probes ea i have a tektronix t mhz scope for sale it is a nice simple unit to learn on i used it while i was in school if you want one to play with at home this is easy and inexpensive it has a nice handle and is quite lightweight and easy to move around i will consider selling the probes seperately for ea they are hp a probes suitable for this type of scope the probes are not included in the price of for the scope if you need more technical info you will have to come look at it as i am not a scope expert and what i have said is all i know chris
misc.forsale	camcorder sony mm forsale it is years old model ccd v x zoom everything works perfectly uses mm tapes not hi that was not around years ago plus shipping or best offer gregg weber let it be open and bright like the sky gregg netcom com without taking sides with no clouds of concepts kun mkhyen klong chen pa
misc.forsale	re dx cpu chip for sale in article c qoby n utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes dx cpu chip for sale shipping if you like to pay for the please refer to he is selling for that cpu correct may be high now that amd has started selling clones indeed word is intel s lawsuit against amd was absolutely thrown out of court monday amd said they would be shipping chips with the intel instruction set next week chip prices are going to go through the floor mark my words regards gordon waters clyde gordon bme georgia institute of technology atlanta ga out of the mountain of despair we can hew the stone of hope mlk jr uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt a internet gt a prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	complete system for sale dx mhz dtk motherboard intel microprocessor k internal cache megs ram meg harddrive ide controller meg floppy drive meg floppy drive serial ports parallel port samsung vga monitor vga graphics card key keyboard baud internal modem ms dos procomm plus ver norton utilities ver other varius utilities i m upgrading and need to sell the system is reliable and ready to go i ve never had any problems with it i m asking o b o if you re interested please respond by either e mail or phone tae zeus tamu edu or thanks andrew
misc.forsale	pin printer for sale as well i have a pin printer which is an alps allegro it s both a fast printer with lq and a very sophisticated design it has a straight paper path and the capability of auto forwarding sheets to tear off and then back a big paper saver as you never have to waste sheets to get a current print out it can also handle single sheets without removing the formfeed and has sophisticated preferences options you can interactively program all the preferences to control the printer and get printed feedback without ever using a computer you get prompts and menus to pick your current setup and default set up this was the top of the line lq dot matrix when i bought it three years ago for it is also epson lq compatible besides it s own modes and comes with ibm driver software which i ve never used since i own an amiga has a card slot for upgrading memory or fonts i ll let it go for including shipping prepaid cod orders must pay all shipping and cod costs adisak pochanayon also a light gun and uforce controller for nintendo but with pd driver software to use them on the amiga the light gun is fully remote no wires best offer over less than my cost and they are both brand new cut here jeez it never fails get in the tub and there s a rub at the lamp the genie from aladdin pochanay cae wisc edu eddie adisak pochanayon check out all of silverfox software s releases your amiga entertainment cut here
misc.forsale	raichle ski boots for sale size i also have a pair of size raichle flexon comps these boots are black and yellow they are in good condition i would like around for them also but feel free to make an offer please reply to crane coral bucknell edu thanks curt
misc.forsale	roland juno synthesizer uniden radar detector sale roland juno synthesizer excellent condition great fat analog sound used in the song jump by van halen or best offer uniden rd xl radar detector excellent condition don t be caught by the cops or best offer smaller than a credit card compact for the keyboard email greg park dartmouth edu for the radar email rich lee dartmouth edu ciao
misc.forsale	win dos misc software help me make money for a new modem takes it all shipping not included in price all original documentation disks are include some software unregistered others will have letter for transfer of ownership will sell software seperately purchase must be greater than purchases over get choice of two software selections with footnote w windows x version d dos version r registered letter of transfer u unregistered special offer ms windows ms windows resource kit bound ed wr norton desktop for windows wr ms excel wr gateway version all docs disks ms this is the real thing it only shipped with my computer microcourier wu communucations software ms entertainment pack i wr microprose s gunship vga only du links pro dr includes bountiful golf course wing commander ii vengeance of the kilrathi dr f strike eagle ii dr risk ega du easyflow du brand new never used quicken dr franklin language master dr not a spell checker but a dictionary tsr that pops up for any dos app each word has direct link to the thesaurus ibm dos dr total discount your cost call michael any day between a p est or leave e mail thanks vbreader v bush presidency aborted recovery hopeful
misc.forsale	cd s for sale th following cd s are for sale each cd cost except otherwise indicated which includes shipping and handling achtung baby u joshua tree u the immaculate collection madonna love hurts cher garth brooks garth brooks red hot chilli peppers ooooohhhhh tlc light and shadows wilson used only once never used most of them are still in shrink wraps please email to kgc woods ulowell edu
misc.forsale	computers for sale pc and amiga its time for a little house cleaning after my pc upgrade i have the following for sale leading technology pc partner sytsem includes mhz intel cpu mb ide drive brand new canabalized from new system and floppies meg ram vga congroller kb dos on hard drive need to get for system at style kb logitech serial trackman with latest drivers amiga with roms installed and mb video ram and mb addon ram clone k ram and clock roctec addon disk ide disk controller includes scsi option quantum mb scsi drive with lots of software mb x mb simm installed in roctec amiga dos icd flicker fixer ii asking for system i will part out the amiga make an offer amiga software cando textcraft plus tetris welltris for both sword of sodam qix carmen sandiego crossword construction kit canadian prototype replicas cd rom fast file system hypermedia cd rom containing fred fish disks includes registration card low cost upgrades amiga hardware reference man amiga to vga monitor cable two joysticks each prices do not include shipping contact rich garrett email richg sequent com home work ooo o rich garrett o oo richg sequent com o work o o
misc.forsale	mives sale update vhs movie for sale kevin costner dances withs wolves just open and was used once or best offer buyer will have to pay shipping for shipping let me know if you are interested and send your offer to this e mail address koutd hirama hiram edu thanks douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	nubus ntsc genlock card f sale computer friends nubus card good for doing graphics overlays on your videos etc with apple bit vid card without wont sell vid card separately ups u pay shipping cheers mike
misc.forsale	thule roof rack with bike accessories take it all for sale a thule car rack with bike holder accessories comes with nissan pathfinder brackets but you can buy the appropriate ones for your car cheap looking for for everything i live in the bethesda area thanks for your interest james l olds ph d neural systems section domain olds helix nih gov ninds nih bethesda md usa
misc.forsale	update hard drive vga etc article crossposted from misc forsale computers pc clone author was mark wilson posted on fri apr gmt update for sale items all plus shipping core mb hard drive model at works fine full height reduced to mfm controller for the above would like to sell with above have asking price but will sell with above for combined at style case in process of selling vga card k now asking max version now asking please email mark ocsmd ocs com or use phone s below mark mark wilson online computer systems or try email address mark ocsmd ocs com this file disclaims everything signed with my signature i mean it mark wilson online computer systems or try email address mark ocsmd ocs com this file disclaims everything signed with my signature i mean it
misc.forsale	smartcam version for sale and dx smartcam version for sale purchased in august latest version also willing to sell dx mg hard drive multi scan monitor paid for software and for computer also includes yr maintanence contract that can be updated every year for apx per year make offer call or ask for terry
misc.forsale	hp calculator for greetings hp s forsale comes with case no manuals excellent condition asking for if interested please e mail today al
misc.forsale	house for sale in mercerville nj i am posting this for a friend please do not respond to me thanks house for sale brockton road mercerville new jersey description beautiful bedroom bath cape cod located on a large tastefully landscaped corner with fenced in lot this home features an eat in kitchen with built in corner china closet a large living room wall to wall carpeting hardwood floors new ceramic tile foyer and freshly painted neutral tone decor this home includes new central air and heating new roof new water heater aluminum siding storm windows and doors and rockwell insulation in all exterior walls also features a new partially finished basement with an outside entrance and new duro shed lots of storage space convenient to rt extras dishwasher washer and dryer ceiling fans and window treatments call for appointment at open house on sunday april th call for directions
misc.forsale	re moving sale reduced prices i have a list of things forsale on behalf of my brother who s moving moved already offer black and decker duster plus portable hand vaccum purchased for sr dual cassette portable player am fm band graphics equalizer high speed dubing duo tape tape deck a seems to have lost treble sound but i bet it s fixable purchased for monolux zoom microscope up to x magnification made in japan includes case and accessories purchased for sunbeam hair dryer the dryer you put your head under into you know the ones you see in the salons don t ask me why my bro had it purchased for everylast speed bag all leather brand new never used osterizer pusle matic blender with speeds and a cookbook years old purchased for binolux binoculars x extra wide angle ft at yds with case very new proctor and silex spray steam and dry iron very new any questions contact me thru e mail and i will reply expeditously and always s h are not included so please consider this and lastly i m a very reasonable very reasonable thanks john
misc.forsale	mac classic ii mac classic for sale year old excellent condition includes dustcovers freeware shareware including many fonts email or call sf bay area forman ide com things that are real are given and received sun ide forman in silence m b
misc.forsale	wanted tg games player or more well the title says it all i m looking to buy cheap used tg gmaes which have or more player support simultaneous please email me all offers with a price rohit
misc.forsale	re moving sale reduced prices i have a list of things forsale on behalf of my brother who s moving moved already offer black and decker duster plus portable hand vaccum purchased for sr dual cassette portable player am fm band graphics equalizer high speed dubing duo tape tape deck a seems to have lost treble sound but i bet it s fixable purchased for monolux zoom microscope up to x magnification made in japan includes case and accessories purchased for sunbeam hair dryer the dryer you put your head under into you know the ones you see in the salons don t ask me why my bro had it purchased for everylast speed bag all leather brand new never used osterizer pusle matic blender with speeds and a cookbook years old purchased for binolux binoculars x extra wide angle ft at yds with case very new proctor and silex spray steam and dry iron very new any questions contact me thru e mail and i will reply expeditously and always s h are not included so please consider this and lastly i m a very reasonable very reasonable thanks john
misc.forsale	in case a deal is a lemon hi to all since all of you could also be a seller as well as a buyer i d like to bring this issue for discussion what would be the best solution in case a deal became a lemon as i understand most people selling things over the net do not grant a warranty i am in such a situation that the seller did not state whether a warranty would be granted or not and the item i received is out of order the seller insisted that it was in good condition when he sent it and so would just return half ofthe amount that i paid if i send the item back to him and after he is sured it is bad is this reasonable basically i would like to believe the seller tells the truth also i am positively to say that i ve not done anything wrong which might cause the failure of the thing my assumption here is everyone is honest so rule out the possibility that either one of the two parties or both are liars i would like to hear your opinion either in here or directly respond to my e mail address i know there is such a risk that you could lose money but how can we make it enjoyable to most people and not wasting the bandwidth chein
misc.forsale	w power supplies two lh research sm power supplies sm series w v a currently wired for vac control lines sense on off pwr fail high low margin and current monitor the list price from lh research is each for qty asking for the pair steve glicker austin texas steve titan tsd arlut utexas edu
misc.forsale	re expen ive motorola handheld radio for peanuts jeff later writes motorola expo vhf watt chan ht new would like or best offer i m sure that the motorola is worth it but this kind of thing has always mystified me is the price of very good new dual band fully synthasized ht yes yes i know motorola hts are bullet proof unbreakable plutonium based indestructable you can drive a tank over them and they ll still work but just how often does that come up why are hams willing and they are to spend the price of a synthaszied dual bander for a channel xtal rig note this is not a flame as i said i m sure this is a good deal for this rig i m just amazed that it is a good deal i would have guessed that a channel xtal rig could never be worth as much as a dual bander to a ham no matter how durable just shows you how wrong i can be mike n pdy these are my opinions only
misc.forsale	books for sale cheap someone please buy these books i am not asking much just make me an offer and i will probably take it calculus w analytic geometry by authur b simon copyright date below avg condition but still readable writing good software in fortran graham smith the holt handbook by kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide algebra trigonometry a problem solving approach rd edition by w flemming and d varberg very good condition general chemistry principles modern applications r petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send me your offers via email at chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	re is itproper net etiquette to advertise a company s junk mail list in article apr leland stanford edu thomper leland stanford edu dale buford thompson writes in article c jccg bn tsoft net you write stuff deleted my company maintains a mailing list which is regularly rented for more stuff deleted ted it is my impression that net etiquette does not allow companies to use the net to directly advertise their products in addition to improper etiquette this product is a mailing list used for generating junk mail am i correct in assuming this is improper and if so what can be done to penalize such an improper use dale thompson well dale i d say offhand keel hauling would work pretty well we haven t had a good keel hauling in a long time sorry it came up in a conversation yesterday and well i just love that phrase or maybe just ask for folks to flood the guys mailbox with the faq for net etiquitte sort of poetic justice for all the junk mail he was trying to generate anyway tom t tom testagrossa e mail ttesta kali enet dec com us mail clarendon st apt fitchburg ma u s a phone work voicemail home ask me about my guitars
misc.forsale	for sale sega genesis system my roommate is selling a sega genesis system with sonic i in very nice condition for obo please respond via email to pathall as arizona edu alternate email addresses are phall noao edu and moe ccit arizona edu thanks pat hall
misc.forsale	mazda pickup college pro student painters look mazda pickup rebuilt engine at miles new transmission speed miles new brakes new brake calipers brand new clutch only miles on it professional ladder racks can hold up to ladders cylinder gets miles to the gallon fog lights tach runs great all inquires should write back or call i will have it saturday afternoon and sunday if you would like to take a look at it phone if your are painting this summer this is an excellent vehicle to use andy feigin prodigy rwbp d
misc.forsale	game boy games wanted i m looking for some game boy games please e mail me with your list and offers thanks also if you have a game boy you want to get rid of please tell me chris
misc.forsale	moving sale moving sale must sell before may futon high end oak queen like new computer desk roll top locks securely like new color tv perfect cond great for bedroom sold coffee tables dresser or b o lamps make an offer ask for esther eve day
misc.forsale	warriors tickets for sale warriors tickets for sale i have tickets that i can t use last pair this year section row p seats day date opponent time wed sacremento price my cost call or email if you are interested in these tickets lorne johnson lorne sun com
misc.forsale	sony receiver and ten disc changer for sale for sale str av audio receiver watts per channel dolby surround sound with pro logic learning programmable remote watts per channel for surround sound supports dual room link control to hear another source in a different room index filing of all radio stations band equilizer with real time analyzer i need to get for this unit or best offer cdp c sony ten disc changer ten disc cartridge custom file of your favorite program or title or volume for each disc up to disc memory remote control fixed and variable volume outputs optical output x oversampling rate firm i purchased these items about months ago and need to sell them now to buy a house both units are in immaculate shape and are priced to move steven walsh walshs cs uwp edu
misc.forsale	indiana jones hint book wanted looking for hint book for indiana jones and the last crusade the game is for the ibm e mail me or call and ask for orion if you don t have the hint book but know how to answer these questions plao how do you beat biff how do you open the valt door how do you knock out the security system
misc.forsale	re car stereo stolen i had the front panel of my car stereo stolen this weekend i need to buy the front panel of a sony xr u car stereo if by any chance anyone has had the body of a sony xr u stolen and has an otherwise useless front panel i would love to buy it from you if you know anyone who had a removeable front panel car stereo stolen from them could you please forward this message to them thanks kris i was my understanding that the purpose of those removeable front panels were to make the radio useless and thus discourage theft that is if the cover were removed by the owner and taken along whenever the car was left if those covers were sold for anything remarkably less than the radio originally costs or even sold at all then the above discouragement wouldn t be so great i personally would be unhappy if i bought a radio like that thinking that removing the cover greatly depreciated the radio s value and the covers were sold by the company or other legitimate source cheaply if you cut here you d ruin your monitor kenneth d ray expert someone who knows more and more crc ocis about less and less and finally rice university knows everything about nothing
misc.forsale	looking for a person vhs for sale i am looking for a person who made an offer of for five of my vhs movies i was not able to save the e mail address of this person it has been a week since we made the deal please reply the five movies are basic instinct born on the forth of july backdraft the prince of tides presumed innocent douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	home base and car cb units motorola beeper for sale uniden channel cb transceiver model pro e this is a home base unit with connectors for external speaker and pa speaker x internal speaker chanel button nb anl pa selector buttons volume squelch rf gain tone and mic gain controls comes with mic side mount for mic measures x x plugs into v black like new actually brand new asking shipping included midland international model c chanel car unit this one is well used black w silver front comes with mic power cord for v cigarette lighter socket gutter mount antena is also included easy to install and remove asking shipping included or both for including shipping the uniden alone is about in kmart these two will work nicely together have one in the garage and one in your truck motorola beeper i can t quite figure out what is the model number cost is to buy from usamobile don t use this no more
misc.forsale	the abyss on laserdisc article crossposted from temple forsale author was ray lauff ray astro ocis temple edu posted on wed apr gmt regular cbs fox release of the wide screen edition of the movie the abyss for sale asking including postage i want to purchase the new director s cut and would like to unload this laserdisc if possible two discs unopened minutes letterbox email me if interested ray astro ocis temple edu ray ray lauff temple university computer services ray lauff astro temple edu ray lauff temple university computer services ray lauff astro temple edu
misc.forsale	photo stuff forsale time to clear out some miscellaneous lenses cameras and photo stuff that s not being used some are gems some are mundane minolta af lens for maxxum cameras new lens but i guess it d be best to call it a demo since i did not get the literature box or warranty cards vivitar x converter for nikon f or ai lenses pretty cute flip back tang so it will work with all manual focus nikon lenses and bodies it will even couple and double a non ai lens to an ai body pentax screwmount lens well actually it s a super takumar which is what they all were back then very mint condition nice hard case for this lens more alpex lens beautifully made all metal construction with fine optics minolta mount another hard case that fits this with strap can be added call it more vivitar flash the one that made vivitar famous until the eclipsed it tilt head removable sensor variable auto exposure universal roamer folding old bellows camera with leather case uses or film mm f lens kinda cool articulated shutter release decent shape weston lightmeter nothin super fancy but it works well and is a good cross check to built in meters with case and strap and finally the gems pentax auto camera with mm f lens this is the little and i do mean tiny slr that pentax made has interchangeable lenses but try and find the zoom true through the lens viewing with split image focus and completely auto exposure olympus rc rangefinder camera a really cute little camera with mm lens f with built in manual or auto exposure self timer etc i think this was the predecessor to the xa and it s nearly all metal i won t mind holding onto this one if it doesn t sell olympus om with flash shoe leatherette case zuiko lens and tokina sd super dispersion lens these are all in very nice to mint condition except for one little ding on the om body near the film advance lever lenses are perfect and the tokina is a very compact and sharp lens for the set that ll do to clean out some of the stuff feel free to offer on this stuff although the cheaper stuff is priced to cover my hassle in shipping it for more details call or email alan l peterman hm work al qiclab scn rain com it s odd how as i get older the days are longer but the years are shorter
misc.forsale	software forsale lots software publishing superbase windows v ocr system readright v for windows ocr system readright v for dos unregistered zortech bit c compiler v with multiscope windows debugger whitewater resource toolkit library source code glockenspiel imagesoft commonview windows applications framework for borland c spontaneous assembly library with source code microsoft macro assembly microsoft windows v sdk documentation microsoft foxpro v wordperfect developer s toolkit kedwell software databoss v c code generator kedwell installboss v installation generator liant software c views v windows application framework with source code ibm os developer s toolkit cbtree dos windows library with source code symantec timeline for windows timeslip timesheet professional for windows many more software books available price negotiable
misc.forsale	okidata printer for sale fellow netters i have an okidata printer i would like to sell a description follows okidata printer including cables for both ibm compatibles centronics parallel and commodore rs round also includes power cable manual and a handful of computer paper to get you started this is a pin printer i recently cleaned the printhead and installed a new ribbon a print sample can be provided upon request this is a very dependable printer it never jams or does weird things i have used it with a commodore for about years and am now using it with my sx i use mainly wordperfect see next post for which i got a driver at no charge that directly supports the okidata in epson fx mode when i got the printer it was selling for around new i got mine from tenex brand new for a christmas present i would like to get about or so for it if you are interested at all in it please give me a ring e mail and make an offer kevin harter
misc.forsale	auction marvel dc valiant image dark horse etc i am auctioning off the following comics these minimum bids are set below what i would normally sell them for make an offer and i will accept the highest bid after the auction has been completed title minimum current alpha flight jim lee s first work at marvel aliens st app aliens in comics st prnt may krism twice amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man st appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers st appearance x factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents st app concrete st printing detective azrael appears intro cypher harbinger st appearance h a r d corps b matthey sold h a r d corps incredible hulk st app grey hulk since incredible hulk st mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk st dale keown art in hulk incredible hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover brentb twice mr t signed advance copy exist new mutants mcfarlane cover st app cable cameo new mutants st app x force new mutants annual st liefeld art on new mutants omega men st appearance lobo omega men st full lobo story power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth th appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed spectacular spider man st app new hobgoblin star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics trianglehead special limited edition autogrphed web of spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web of spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad wolverine sabretooth proven not to be his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card x force signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card x force signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card x force signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	a few cds for sale brand new each add for postage th class that makes it all these discs are still shrink wrapped kathleen battle wynton marsalis baroque duet sony classical david sanborn upfront elektra kenny g live arista jimmy buffett songs you know by heart greatest hits mca records billy ray cyrus some gave all mercury en vogue funky divas eastwest records
misc.forsale	not all deals are bad fellow netters i just wanted to let you know that there are a few honest and good people out there even outside of iowa i m sorry if anyone thinks that i am wasting space but i thought you might want some relief from the so and so is a thief posts not that i think we shouldn t hear about the bad deals but it would be nice to hear some good news once in a while after seeing his post on one of the for sale groups i mailed mr mark miller a request for his copy of wordperfect for dos he suggested a price of in his ad but when i phoned him he quoted plus shipping that sounded more than fair to me so i told him that i would send him a check the next day imagine my surprise when i logged into my account the following day and found a message from him saying that it had already been sold after i had just mailed the money order after another e mail message to him he apologized and assured me that it was a mistake i was the one who he was holding it for he sent the package as soon as he got the money along with a letter stating a transfer of license this wasn t good enough for wordperfect so i asked him to fill out one of their forms no problem we thought it took three times to get it to the right address my fault anyway he mailed me the form for my signature and included a workbook that i had no idea was included in the deal again he apologized for not sending it before i now have the world s best word processor and a renewed hope in the world that there are a few good ones left i recoend that if you ever see that mark is selling anything thatat you may want give him a call if i had the choice i would purchase all of my software from him bravo mr miller kevin harter
misc.forsale	re car stereo stolen in article c t qg ij rice edu xray is rice edu kenneth dwayne ray writes i had the front panel of my car stereo stolen this weekend i need to buy the front panel of a sony xr u car stereo i was my understanding that the purpose of those removeable front panels were to make the radio useless and thus discourage theft that is if the cover were removed by the owner and taken along whenever the car was left if those covers were sold for anything remarkably less than the radio originally costs or even sold at all then the above discouragement wouldn t be so great i personally would be unhappy if i bought a radio like that thinking that removing the cover greatly depreciated the radio s value and the covers were sold by the company or other legitimate source cheaply the front covers should be available from sony check with a local car stereo shop you will probably definitely have to provide the units serial number and hopefully you had registered the warranty card i don t know the cost but replacements have to be available to people who damage the face cover so it stands to reason that it can be replaced as to deterring theft when i worked for a stereo shop we referred the customer to a sony number we would not sell the face nor did we have them available most people who came in asking for the face cover or a pullout sleave for that matter would look very disheartened to find that they acquired a deck they couldn t use if theft occurs with these decks notify sony serial numbers do catch theives just a thought michael
misc.forsale	re is itproper net etiquette to advertise a company s junk mail list not only is it improper etiquette and illegal but the people who are responsible for junk mailings are evil ahhh ive always wanted to get that off my chest
misc.forsale	aviation headset d c h for sale for sale david clark h aviation headset excellent condition not even a scratch original packaging discover for yourself why the h continues to be the favorite headset of thousands of pilots it was the first headset to have the advanced m amplified electret microphone with a frequency response specifically designed to match the human voice also includes durable universal boom assembly and a noise reduction rating nrr of db weighs oz includes telex push to talk switch asking u s shipping negotiable for more information respond to afhetzel netcom com andrew andrew f hetzel i complete less work before am than afhetzel netcom com most people do all day ann arbor mi usa
misc.forsale	vax pricing hello all goucher college will soon be retiring a microvax ii world case mb hard drives port i o mb maybe mb system memory any idea as to how much we can expect to get for this machine on the open market please reply privately to tim marshall goucher wb ffv ampr org thanks in advance tim marshall associate director academic computing goucher college baltimore md all opinions are mine alone documentation a manual which tells you how to use a program system or utility one version ago and which is now unsupported
misc.forsale	ibm games for sale i would like to sell some software shipping is per order or more games in the continental u s to canada contact me for shipping to other locations contraption zack perfect condition unregistered all docs disks packaging a d puzzle game with great animated graphics your tools for fixing up a manufacturing plant are hidden throughout the levels and you must solve puzzles to get the tools and then use the tools to fix the machines the levels are huge and span many screens the graphics are cartoony and humorous color vga mcga adlib soundblaster roland legend of kyrandia perfect condition unregistered all docs disks packaging an adventure where you are the unknowing heir to the throne of the kingdom of kyrandia an evil jester has murdered your parents the king and queen and attempted to take control of the kingdom only to be thwarted by a spell cast upon him by your grandfather and three other magic users you must travel to find each of the magic users to gain use of an amulet that will help you to defeat the jester beautiful graphics and a great soundtrack vga mcga adlib sound blaster soundblaster pro mt lapc spirit of excalibur by virgin mastertronic good condition all docs disks packaging a fantasy game combining role playing adventure and combat simulation you are the heir to the throne of britain after arthur has died you must re unite the land under your rule and then defend it against an invading army from the north ega tandy mcga vga sound cards loom perfect condition unregistered all docs disks packaging received a computer gaming world award for artistic achievement an adventure game where you play the role of a young weaver of musical spells you must save your fellow weavers from oblivion by traveling through the land casting spells learning new spells befriending people you meet and foiling an evil plot all point and click no typing every action in the game involves casting your musical spells vga ega cga mcga tandy adlib cms sound dark seed perfect condition used very little unregistered all docs disks packaging an adventure based on the surrealistic and macabre artwork of h r giger the inspiration for alien alien iii and poltergeist ii you have just bought an old victorian house at a bargain in a secluded town you find that there is a portal to a dark sinister world in your house and a plot against the world as you know it you must save yourself and your world from a horrible fate gorgeous and gory high resolution graphics vga adlib soundblaster conquest of japan by impressions brand new used only once unregistered all docs disks packaging simulation of samurai conquest you play the role of a japanese daimyo a lord you control five cities on japan s main island honshu each provides money for you to buy armies with which you must conquer your enemy battles are fought with impressions miniature system you watch the individual samurai mounted samurai spearmen archers and arquebusiers vga adlib
misc.forsale	new hard drive sale seagate gb scsi hard drive brand new with full factory warranty fh ms access time mtbf only s h leave e mail if interested
misc.forsale	technical books for sale x unix c c os db netwk repost my friends and i have a buch of books for sale they are not being used due to change of job loss of interest etc rather than letting them gather dust we would like to pass them on to others who may use them of course at a price topics include c c other programming languages unix dos os windows other operating system topics general x motif olit xwin networking and digital signal processing computer graphics microprocessors and computer architecture math software engineering algorithms software testing databases expert systems the list is long and rather than posting it here i will email it by request i am going to keep the list updated and so will respond to all requests lucky me if you are interested drop me a line s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h
misc.forsale	nikon fm and lens forsale nikon fm n with mm nikkor and accessories for sale i bought this camera in hong kong two years ago and everything has been looked after very well i m now selling some more gear to finance my next big film project asking for package no bargains
misc.forsale	nitendo game wanted hi i am one those uncles that try to please my nephews whenever possible so they have asked me to find them some nitendo games no it is not for the super nitendo it is for whatever model came prior to that since they are overseas i will first ask them if they already have the games you would have to offer me please send me a list or whatever and the price you are asking so i can send to my nephews and find out what they have and what they want so bare with me i will respond but it will take me a while thanks walter walter psg com please respond directly portland oregon usa walter t morales n w internet walter rain com pop
misc.forsale	cds for i have the following cds for sale for each plus postage all cds are in perfect condition michael bolton time love tenderness paula abdul forever your girl taylor dayne tell it to my heart lionel richie the composer elvis presley number one hits bobby vinton greatest hits super hits of the s includes yellow river rose garden for the good times help me make it through the night mr bojangles sweet mary one toke over the line put your hand in hand stay awhile woodstock silver bird i ain t got time anymore new fashioned love songs import includes extended remixes and dance mixes for the following i know you were waiting aretha franklin george michael walk like an egyptian live it up mental as anything is this love alison moyet i ll be alright without you journey the rain oran jones in my dreams reo speedwagon shake you down gregory abbott fight for ourselves spandau ballet between two fires paul young falling in love miami sound machine heartache away don johnson
misc.forsale	paintball gun forsale paintball gun for sale tippman sl ii in great condition micro honed barrel barrel squeegie barrel round sight feeder with elbow oz constant air tank with valve protector and buttplate shoulder strap x bushnell sportview scope round ammo box with flip top lid barrel plug instruction manual allen wrenches contact me at zborowsk spot colorado edu and make me an offer
misc.forsale	victoria b c hotel room nights victoria hotel reserv nights mid week sun thurs hotel reservation available for victoria canada nights days for expires june this is a letter of credit fully transferrable issued by hotelco for a hotel room in any of a number of available hotels in victoria canada hotelco is a reputable hotel booking company that provides hotel stays at low prices this letter of credit normally works for weekends too but all weekends are booked solid for the summer so check with hotelco directly for available dates at one of its member hotels to use this letter of credit before june hotelco can be reached at in bothell or during regular business hours then if you find an acceptable reservation date contact me for this letter of credit roger bacalzo rbacalzo sierra com home x work roger bacalzo sierra geophysics kirkland way ext kirkland wa rbacalzo sibu sierra com
misc.forsale	re ami pro v for sale goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes lotus ami pro v please reply if interested thank you or you could get it new for the phone is or club or the address is pc buyer s club h montvale ave stoneham ma i don t work for them just thought it was too good a deal to pass up btw i recived mine days before they said it would arrive morgan bullard mb coewl cen uiuc edu or mjbb uxa cso uiuc edu
misc.forsale	townhome for sale in wheaton townhome for sale in wheaton briarcliffe lakes of wheaton just north of butterfield road call and ask for harriet bode prudential realty description a very neat well cared for low maintenance starter coach home in very fine condition located on a cul de sac just move in rooms eat in kitchen x large master bedroom x spare bedroom x dining room x living room x utility room x baths appliances stove gas refrigerator and dish washer garage opener washer and dryer garbage disposal gas water heater years old central a c with digital thermostat highlights electric fire place in living room sliding glass doors which open up to a patio with a secluded back yard area plenty of storage space with patio storage closet and storage closet in garage new ceiling fan in dining room completely remodeled bathroom new wallpaper shower door shower tile etc mini blinds for all windows newer carpets beige about years old one car garage and plenty of guest parking association fees which includes the following lawn maintenance snow removal all exterior building maintenance taxes asking price of home
misc.forsale	re kiev medium format camera cheaper prices i agree i own one aside from the shutter it is built like a little tank a very good camera your price sounds reasonable too new i paid for my kiev camera kit good luck thomas helke egret wet uucp
misc.forsale	labtec speaker for sale hi anybody interested in buying my labtec speaker labtec ss amplified stereo speaker system built in amplifier volt input works with without batteries individual volume controls treble boost switch great for medium quality pc s sound adlib soundblaster walkman for included shipping e mail me richard susanto aduh carson u washington edu
misc.forsale	commodoree i have a wonderful commodore for sale also included disk drive color moniter power supply great shape software joysticks baud modems old but useable contact doug or via dlg pro v
misc.forsale	for sale zenith motherboard the following is posted for a friend send replies to the address at the end of the post please attention zenith z owners upgrade your mhz at class machine to performance with a genuine zenith motherboard for a clone price motherboard and i o card pop right in to your z case while keeping your existing video and disk controllers zenith z motherboard featuring kb of layer posted write cache using ns sram mb of ns dram included accepts mb on motherboard further ram upgrades available via superslots running at memory bus speeds expansion slots feature zenith bit superslots autodetects bit adapters latest rev of z setup monitor roms two serial ports one parallel port secondary fan for improved system cooling z user s guide z maintenance guide and diagnostics disk included includes s h insurance replies to stann aol com replies to me will be forwarded thanks brian brian shapiro systems support specialist ohio university athens ohio shapiro oucsace cs ohiou edu or shapirob ouaccvma bitnet
misc.forsale	star trek ornament hey i have some star trek christmas ornaments for sale they are the the hallmark shuttle craft galileo they went for during christmas i am willing to sell it for that price shipping if you are interested and have some questions please reply give me a call at dang
misc.forsale	nash metropolitan forsale my little nash has sat for about a year had been running but now i must move a long distance and there are too many things to carry with me here are the details of the car hardtop exterior condition rocker panels rusted out at weld points no rust at typical spots like door hinge mounting points back battery box etc missing front bumper front pan dented up one weld popped in front this is for the most part a solid restorable automobile interior condition missing original steering wheel has one of the smaller aftermarket wheels seats need reupholstered general fair condition mechanical condition had been running but now does not want to start needs new rings which i have also have extra parts such as complete long block extra steering shaft etc for a car that has not been touched since it is in solid shape it will obviously need some work but will make a good project price well this is a tough one i would like to get around but will consider any serious offers by individuals willing to come and get it if you have things to trade such as tools toys cameras comics cards etc anything easily movable to florida i may consider that as well hit r or my e mail address is ellis osu edu home leave message thanks mike
misc.forsale	repost tape drives mm mm for sale acorn software inc has tape drives currently used on a vms system for sale these are all scsi tape drives and are in working condition wangdat mm wangdat mm compression exabyte mm plus shipping and cod certified checks only please these units are sold as is and without warrantee contact me if you re interested dick munroe internet munroe dmc com doyle munroe consultants inc uucp uunet thehulk munroe cox st office hudson ma fax get connected send mail to info dmc com to find out about dmconnection
misc.forsale	sony mhc bookshelf stereo system forsale sony mhc hi fi bookshelf stereo system months old cd player tape decks digital graphic equilizer tuner speakers watts channel top of the line sony bookshelf system includes amazing remote that actually splits into two everything can be done from the remote remote has digital display has the highest quality sound amazing bass not one scratch on system very well taken care of originally purchased for tax i need cash and i am looking to get around for it since i really need the money i will sell it to the person who gives me the highest offer and i will accept the best offer if not buyer pays insured shipping reply soon if intereseted thanks
misc.forsale	re bally s holiday health club lifetime memership in article c j k w visgraph uucp forrie visgraph uucp forrest aldrich writes for sale life time membership to the ballys holiday fitness club the original fee paid for this was over and i ll sell it for the membership is fully transferrable via proper paperwork does is include raquetball is it good at espree what is the annual fee thanks john
misc.forsale	for sale cannondale road bike w dura ace cm cannondale road bike cm bright blue color dura ace speed not sti could be easily converted though spoke wheelset clinchers complete bike or best offer all offers will be considered this bike has to go desperate times call for desperate measures will consider parting out write for details jay ritchie jbr ra msstate edu
misc.forsale	for sale apple iigs apple iigs imagewriter ii color printer color rgb monitor drive drive keyboard mouse lots of disks some applications most manuals and my utmost gratification for only or bo
misc.forsale	laptop cards laptop connectivity cards part t rn desc remote emulation card for toshiba laptop computer part t m desc easytalk bd dedicated internal modem with mnp level for toshiba t t part t ll desc easytalk internal ethernet card for toshiba laptop expansion slot part t desc easytalk terminal emulation for toshiba laptop expansion slot if interested in all or individual parts send email to rotella zmax com
misc.forsale	sams comics for sale no auction ok instead of holding an auction i have decided to compute prices for each comic after many suggestions these are the most reasonable prices i can give not negotiable if you would like to purchase a comic or group simply email me with the title and issue s you want the price for each issue is shown beside each comic first come first served there is no more bidding meet my price and it is yours i can be reached at this email address chopin udel edu or ravel udel edu or bach udel edu or brahms udel edu no more haggling about the price lots of comics for or look at list for all those who have bought comics from me thanks all comics are near mint unless otherwise noted my books were graded by mile high comics and other comic professional collectors not me here is the list incredible hulk vs another hulk vs captain marvel double size issue vs silver surfer vs thor vs bi coastal avengers vs thing vs werewolf by night copy punisher punisher war journal ghost rider ghost rider punisher armory original ghost rider rides again reprint ghost rider old series vs johnny blaze copies origin of gr dream each ghost rider new series st print green glow in dark cover copy nd print gold cover w glow cover web of spiderman copies each vs hulk copy left spiderhulk copy left deadly foes of spiderman copies each amazing spiderman vs dr octopus special nacme issue amazing spiderman vs dr doom copy left spiderman silver not bagged copies each w wolverine copy left new warriors gold cover w darkhawk superman man of steel superman new copies each adventures of superman annual superman annual armegedon tie in action comics avengers west coast hawkeye vs us agent batman robin returns annual armegedon tie in captain america vs hulk vs hulk armegedon foolkiller infinity gauntlet double dragon deathlok series transformers last issue wonder man flaming carrot w ninja turtles the comet legend of the shield justice society of america official movie mag from turtles ii movie sealed w jelloman comic robin copies w poster rd print copies each guardians of the galaxy copies each copies each superman vs amazing spiderman oversized issue from s darkhawk copies each copies each thor vs juggernaut w ghost rider thor vs loki copies each new thor annual what if alpha flight vs fant new mutants last issue st look at x force st print copies each nd print gold cover flash new annual x men new all covers each but for magneto foldout cover uncanny x men copies each sold copy left lee reg artist copy left st print gold nd print defenders hulk vs sub mariner fantastic four copies each wolverine w cable copies each silver surfer foil cover only copy left avengers origin of rage x factor quasar green lantern copies each toxic avenger copies each sleepwalker copies each kool aid man sealed in white bag copies each x force bagged w cable card bagged w shatterstar card nfl superpro dr strange hawkworld annual nd print armegedon tie in hawk dove annual armegedon tie in justice league of america annual armegedon tie in send all bids and comments to chopin udel edu thanks sam the ex comic book collector college of electrical engineering university of delaware
misc.forsale	us robotics modem reply to haljordan delphi com or call u s robotics dual standard v bis k baud hst price
misc.forsale	airline tickets o hare tuscon two round trip tickets o hare tuscon american airlines good thru november no reasonable offer refused but lets start at for both paid hopefully someone can use these as i have no use for them and don t know a way to get my moneys worth without going to tuscon again e mail only at this time tripper cbnewsk cb att com now why would at t or butler services have anything to do with my warped ramblings crabby old fart mechanical pcb designer w buku cad background still working on bscs is looking for work wants to take a shot at asic ic layout a r tripp a k a tripper cbnewsk cb att com
misc.forsale	re printing jack previdi p psilink com writes in reply to dorothy heydt reminding us that advertising is not done on internet as a matter of fact d j it does make a difference almost a half million new users joined the internet last year many of them are commercial businesses the ban on commercial use of internet is no more jack there is a difference between using the network for commercial purposes and advertising in newsgroups business communication is okay advertising to hundreds of thousands of users around the planet who have no desire to receive advertising is not okay those of us who pay for internet access are constrained only by our innate good taste and no have no administrator to guide us i suspect that a site which generated a large volume of material not in anybody s good taste would find itself getting a lot of attention it didn t want you may belong to the public library but that doesn t mean you can deface the books disorder the stacks or disturb the other patrons you re constrained by the same rules that the rest of the users many academic and military who get irritable about a network for which they pay with tax and grant money carrying private business advertising follow there are secret masters here just like everywhere else they re not as obvious as the ones on prodigy but they re here no doubt at some point the internet like everything else will become grotty enough to carry advertising at that time i hope it is confined to its own newsgroups and not on discussion groups like misc writing elizabeth willey
misc.forsale	sams comic sale low prices read ok instead of holding an auction i have decided to compute prices for each comic after many suggestions these are the most reasonable prices i can give not negotiable if you would like to purchase a comic or group simply email me with the title and issue s you want the price for each issue is shown beside each comic first come first served there is no more bidding meet my price and it is yours i can be reached at this email address chopin udel edu or ravel udel edu or bach udel edu or brahms udel edu no more haggling about the price lots of comics for or look at list shipping is for comics for more than the price will be determined by the volume of the purchase i may have to use a big heavy box for large orders which costs more to mail for all those who have bought comics from me thanks all comics are near mint unless otherwise noted my books were graded by mile high comics and other comic professional collectors not me here is the list incredible hulk vs another hulk vs captain marvel double size issue vs silver surfer vs thor vs bi coastal avengers vs thing vs werewolf by night copy punisher punisher war journal ghost rider ghost rider punisher armory original ghost rider rides again reprint ghost rider old series vs johnny blaze copies origin of gr dream each ghost rider new series st print green glow in dark cover copy nd print gold cover w glow cover web of spiderman copies each vs hulk copy left spiderhulk copy left deadly foes of spiderman copies each amazing spiderman vs dr octopus special nacme issue amazing spiderman vs dr doom copy left spiderman silver not bagged copies each w wolverine copy left new warriors gold cover w darkhawk superman man of steel superman new copies each adventures of superman annual superman annual armegedon tie in action comics avengers west coast hawkeye vs us agent batman robin returns annual armegedon tie in captain america vs hulk vs hulk armegedon foolkiller infinity gauntlet double dragon deathlok series transformers last issue wonder man flaming carrot w ninja turtles the comet legend of the shield justice society of america official movie mag from turtles ii movie sealed w jelloman comic robin copies w poster rd print copies each guardians of the galaxy copies each copies each superman vs amazing spiderman oversized issue from s darkhawk copies each copies each thor vs juggernaut w ghost rider thor vs loki copies each new thor annual what if alpha flight vs fant new mutants last issue st look at x force st print copies each nd print gold cover flash new annual x men new all covers each but for magneto foldout cover uncanny x men copies each sold copy left lee reg artist copy left st print gold nd print defenders hulk vs sub mariner fantastic four copies each wolverine w cable copies each silver surfer foil cover only copy left avengers origin of rage x factor quasar green lantern copies each toxic avenger copies each sleepwalker copies each kool aid man sealed in white bag copies each x force bagged w cable card bagged w shatterstar card nfl superpro dr strange hawkworld annual nd print armegedon tie in hawk dove annual armegedon tie in justice league of america annual armegedon tie in send all bids and comments to chopin udel edu thanks sam the ex comic book collector college of electrical engineering university of delaware
misc.forsale	stuff for sale music cds ea inc shipping jesus jones doubt residents heaven rem document nymphs sad and damned single tapes robert plant all solo stuff led zeppelin iv tshirts robert plant manic nirvana tour led zeppelin symbols swansong black bob dylan tour tie dye all offers accepted mail to jac y virginia edu
misc.forsale	hp sx with k hp sx calculator with k card have manuals boxes pc cable etc only months old hardly used make an offer mike mike jerger internet mjerger ux cso uiuc edu
misc.forsale	gre software cheap gre software for ms dos from studyware original disk manual tutorial stuff tests examples and a lot more retail price is around best offer around will pay shipping for best results you need a graphic display card ega or vga jianqing hu thssjyh iitmax acc iit edu
misc.forsale	oakleys for sale bulls vs blazers too i have a pair of oakleys that cost about new a year ago i hardly ever wore them because they just don t look right on me they are orange and blue and are the blade kind terminator style i am willing to sell these for to the first response i get i also have a bulls vs blazers game for the snes that is in perfect condition i am selling it for it includes the instruction manual john bakerjn sage cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	re catalog of hard to find pc enhancements repost in article c ji kfu taurus cs nps navy mil rpwhite cs nps navy mil rpwhite writes andy freeman writes joe doll writes the catalog of personal computing tools for engineers and scien tists lists hardware cards and application software packages for pc xt at ps class machines focus is on engineering and scien tific applications of pcs such as data acquisition control design automation and data analysis and presentation if you would like a free copy reply with your u s postal mailing address don t bother it never comes it s a cheap trick for building a mailing list to sell if my junk mail flow is any indication i have a copy of this catalog in front of me as i write this it does have tons of qool stuff in it that s one any others my impression is that they try not to send it out to browsers then they should have used a different advert it appears that if your not a buyer or an engineer they do not want to waste a catalog on you i m both i ve made some k worth of pc products purchasing decisions for one company i m affiliated with in the past months alone in a delicious bit of irony an interesting fraction went to suppliers that i suspect got my mailing address from these people more is in the pipeline right now if they wanted to discuss these sorts of things upfront is the way to do it when you get a catalog there s a vip code you and who issues that vip code that policy implementation in the running for this week s silly twit award btw it turns out that i have several vip codes here s the one i m using for these sorts of things if you want one send me mail and i ll put you in touch with the folks who do the application interview if you qualify andy
misc.forsale	re is itproper net etiquette to advertise a company s junk mail list in article apr leland stanford edu thomper leland stanford edu dale buford thompson writes my company maintains a mailing list which is regularly rented for oh no someone is provided useful information and mentioned that they made money in the field don t they know that usenet is reserved for uninformed speculation by people trying to sell their personal stuff from houses to dead pcs at a huge markup trying to unload stuff they bought from their company at just under retail and other non commercial activities a ms windows utility product in the range and is available through direct media in ct at per name please let your direct mail marketing rep know about this thanks it is my impression that net etiquette does not allow companies to use the net to directly advertise their products the net is not supposed to be a dumping ground for free ads but reserving it for tripe doesn t seem to be a significant improvement in addition to improper etiquette this product is a mailing list used for generating junk mail so either they target it well enough to pay for it in other words they manage to send it to people who want the stuff in which case it is junk only for the rest and the transaction costs are borne appropriately in this case or they go bankrupt seems fair to me am i correct in assuming this is improper and if so what can be done to penalize such an improper use you could hold your breath you could kill offending messages as they come onto your machine and refuse to send them any further but not until you turn blue andy
misc.forsale	onkyo w ch integrated amp forsale i have a onkyo integrated amplifier that i am looking to get rid of w ch integra series works great not a problem asking obo if your interested call me at or email this address make me an offer todd todd premo purdue universtiy environmental engineering
misc.forsale	contax camera system for sale this is posted for a friend who doesn t have net access you can send replies to me but i ll be out of my office all next week so don t expect a response until at least for sale contax camera system includes contax quartz slr body mm f zeiss planna lens mm f yashica lens medium sized hard case all items are in exceptional condition asking price for all items listed above the seller is attempting to sell the lot as a set but you can negotiate that with him dick joltes joltes husc harvard edu hardware networking manager computer services joltes husc bitnet harvard university science center any woman that you become extremely attracted to will immediately tell you that you re the best friend a woman could ever have david crist
misc.forsale	re apartment in moscow for rent in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu vsloutsk magnus acs ohio state edu vladimir sloutsky writes apartment for rent in downtown moscow room furnished apartment in a very nice location minutes walk to belorusskaya subway station walking distance to kremlin major shopping centers theaters restaurants and government buildings hmmm interesting what do you mean by walking distance i lived in moscow for years and if i am minutes walk to belorusskaya subway station i cannot be walking distance to kremlin unless hour of walking is what you mean by the way what is the price i may plan a trip there not sure yet though in late summer vick victorf seas ucla edu
misc.forsale	buick century estate wagon this article was probably generated by a buggy news reader
misc.forsale	pocono vacation house rental available for weekly bi weekly weekend rental a brand new chalet in a private resort community located in the heart of the pocono mountains the chalet has bedrooms and bathrooms and features full carpeting cathedral ceiling in living dining room an overlooking loft stone fireplace wraparound deck country kitchen with all appliances and many other features too numerous to list them all its custom designed and built and tastefully furnished for the comfort of adults the community has hour security and offers large lakes sandy beaches swimming pools tennis courts many picnic areas playgrounds miniature golf trout stream lake fishing team softball shuffleboard ice skating tobagun run teen dances club house etc etc there are many recreational facilities within easy reach of the vacation home ski resorts luxury hotels with nitely entertaiment pocono international raceway golf courses parks gamelands whitewater rafting horseback riding scenic trails waterfalls train rides historical places all kinds of restaurants factory outlet malls tourist attractions just to name a few this is an ideal place for a family group vacation or a weekend getaway there is no traffic congestion and air or water pollution and its only hours from new york northern new jersey and philadelphia for further information call daytime evenings and weekends
misc.forsale	text books for sale must sell i have several books which i really wish to sell calculus with analytic geometry by howard anton rd edition chemistry by zumdahl second edition acts of war the behavior of men in battle by richard holmes observing the nixon years by jonathan schell the things they carried by tim o brien shrapnel in the heart letters and remembrances from the vietname memorial by laura palmer the good war an oral history of world war two by studs terkel make me an offer you could contact me at koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	wanted ultima for ibm i am looking for ultima v for the ibm i would like the entire package meaning i need more than just the game i would like the docs also since it is an old game i do not want to pay a lot of money if you are interested in selling this game please respond to this message
misc.forsale	computer for sale paolo marc anthony georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs ut ngp gatech prism gt a internet gt a prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	voice processing for ibm pcs sale voice processing system for ibm compatibles item dialogic b multi line voice processing system description the dialog b is a pc xt at board that provides processing functions and call progress analysis for four independent phone lines simultaneously the d b features the ability to record playback autoanswer auto dial detect and generate dtmf tones and perform telephone mamagement functions with this card you can make your computer talk on phone lines simultaneously you can design your own answering system or by one already programmed you can build your own digital pager business and open up a business for voice mailboxes comes complete with manuals and demo software and programming libraries for c unix and dos price list you pay for more info send mail contact john rost leave message johnr cactus org send mail
misc.forsale	items sale received from a award giving company i participated in a promotion by a company called visual images i attempted to cancel my order before the package arrived i was not able to stop them and now i have a package which i do not need nishika d camera wide angle flesh film carring case instruction tapes and some jewelrys vacation vouchers to bahama cancun las vegas orlando i paid for the promotion package and the vacation vouchers came as gift i really want to sell them so make me an offer for the whole package if you are participating in a award is how much you would end up paying and i strongly believe that you would get the same award as i do if you are interested in those items you could get them from me for a cheaper price let me know and make me an offer no flames please i have got enough you could reach me at koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	wanted motherboard vga card i am looking for a motherboard preferable or k or meg ram i am also looking for a vga card am willing to trade external ld drive motherboard monochrome monitor game boy in some combination for the above libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat i define myself tsa cellar org
misc.forsale	for sale game boy for sale nintendo game boy tetris castlevania adventure all star challenge nemesis play action football link cable make me an offer libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat i define myself tsa cellar org
misc.forsale	cd s for sale the following used cd s are for sale they are each unless otherwise marked i will pay for the shipping and handling costs if you are interested in any just e mail me at awakhras phoenix princeton edu at that point we will figure out the payment and mailing procedure artist title robbie robertson storyville love and rockets love and rockets jeff lynne armchair theatre elvis costello mighty like a rose public image ltd neneh cherry raw like sushi bobby brown don t be cruel depeche mode black celebration traveling wilburys vol bad company from soul ii soul vol ii a new decade the godfathers more songs about love and hate paul mccartney flowers in the dirt simply red stars prince graffitti bridge amer akhras awakhras phoenix princeton edu
misc.forsale	sega genesis plus sports games for sale for sale sega genesis including all cables manuals boxes controller games including all manuals and boxes sonic the hedgehog road rash john madden football n h l hockey sportstalk baseball bulls vs lakers and the n b a playoffs john madden football n h l p a hockey super monaco gp ii all of the above for or best offer price includes ups cod shipping send e mail to erc zabriskie berkeley edu if interested eric eric ng erc zabriskie berkeley edu ucbvax zabriskie erc
misc.forsale	looking looking for a video in and out video card for the ibm one that will allow you to watch tv coax or video in and will do video out digitize pictures and if i am in windows and would like to be able to look the rca out for the card to my tv and have it display on there as well as dos apps i heard of these snes and genesis copiers that will copy any games are those for real message was posted at outlan ersys edmonton ab ca hst and v bis try it you ll like it
misc.forsale	spring cleaning sale time once again to clean out the ol closet some stuff is up for offers some isn t please read carefully in the make offer department wordperfect upgrade copy includes all disks and all upgrade manuals best offer balance of power edition for the amiga with manual and reg card best offer in the for sale department technics model auto reverse open reel stereo tape deck because it s auto reverse this deck records onto tape just like a cassette deck does so it s not very good for splice type editing however i have used it effectively in tape studio applications for mastering and it works great and ips speeds supports up to reels dual lighted vu meters with record indicators full auto reverse capable and the mechanism works too adjustable sound on sound and socket for remote control i don t know where you d find one but they used to make em plus a vac unswitched outlet this unit is in excellent condition and i have had it rebuilt once since i got it works perfectly price or best offer or possible trade see below panasonic kx p printer pin with x dpi resolution in both text and graphics modes warranty cards manuals all the usual stuff you expect when buying like new merchandise i m selling it because i now have a better printer this is the wide carriage version of the kx p by the way test prints are available upon request price o b o or trade excalibur custom pool cue oz mm brass joint irish linen wrap could use a new tip but will hold up for a while i ve got too many cues as it is and don t need this one hits nicely is very straight and in excellent condition price o b o or trade imperial hard case butt shaft available for an additional trades i need the following things and i have no cash of my own right now so if you want to trade it needs to be straight across the list amiga rom upgrade to at least preferably with appropriate dos and workbench meg agnus chip for the amiga amiga hard drive and controller preferably scsi ibm compatible hard drive and controller if not mfm this one s touchy as i have a full height and don t have room for more unless i swap out needs to be above m and i will consider trading a good st in the deal intel ex or ex or similar external high speed modem this is not a complete list but it s close if you ve got something way off the track of this list it s probably not going to interest me at this point email responses please
misc.forsale	pink floyd rpm singles for sale i have the following rpm singles for sale most are collectable inch records with picture sleeves price does not include postage which is for the first record for two etc pink floyd learning to fly columbia promo picture sleeve waters roger sunset strip columbia promo picture sleeve waters roger sunset strip columiba promo waters roger who needs information columiba promo if you are interested please contact michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
misc.forsale	rolling stones rpm singles for sale i have the following rpm singles for sale most are collectable inch records with picture sleeves price does not include postage which is for the first record for two etc rolling stones th nervous brakdown london picture sleeve rolling stones jumpin jack flash london picture sleeve rolling stones mothers little helper london picture sleeve rolling stones paint it black london picture sleeve if you are intereste please contact michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
misc.forsale	northwest air tix save any flight northwest air tix save any flight i have a credit with northwest airlines which must be used by nov there is a charge to change the ticket so i will sell it for it can be used for any northwest flight but i don t think they will refund cash please contact me at tallen corp hp com or tom allen
misc.forsale	sam virus clinic mac software for sale i have one original sam symantec antivirus for macintosh v for sale it comes with three program discs and one user manual will work with k and mb disc drives selling for make an offer which includes postage respond to michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
misc.forsale	rpm singles for sale complete list i have the following rpm singles for sale most are collectable inch records with picture sleeves price does not include postage which is for the first record for two etc beach boys barbara ann capitol picture sleeve beach boys califonia girls capitol picture sleeve beach boys fun fun fun capitol picture sleeve beach boys little girl i once knew capitol picture sleeve beach boys please let me wonder capitol picture sleeve beach boys rock n roll to the rescue capitol promo picture sleeve beach boys when i grow up to be a man capitol picture sleeve beatles im happy just to dance with you capitol picture sleeve doctor the medics burn i r s promo picture sleeve general public too much or nothing i r s promo picture sleeve go gos our lips are sealed i r s picture sleeve lennon john instant karma we all shine on apple picture sleeve lennon john mind games apple picture sleeve madonna open your heart sire promo mccartney paul coming up columbia picture sleeve mccartney paul mull of kintyre capitol picture sleeve mccartney paul stranglehold capitol promo picture sleeve mccartney paul wonderful christmastime columbia picture sleeve mercury freddie i was born to love you columbia promo picture sleeve pink floyd learning to fly columbia promo picture sleeve queen kind of magic capitol promo picture sleeve ramones sheena is a punk rocker sire promo picture sleeve rolling stones th nervous brakdown london picture sleeve rolling stones jumpin jack flash london picture sleeve rolling stones mothers little helper london picture sleeve rolling stones paint it black london picture sleeve starr ringo photograph apple picture sleeve starr ringo youre sixteen apple picture sleeve talking heads road to nowhere sire promo picture sleeve waters roger sunset strip columbia promo picture sleeve waters roger sunset strip columiba promo waters roger who needs information columiba promo if you are interested please contact michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
misc.forsale	c game x men for sale selling x men for the c for only plus shipping first email gets it thanx dennis l neal dlneal cbda apgea army mil
misc.forsale	re turbografx system for sale turbografx base unit works like new with controller ac adapter antenna hookup games kieth courage victory run fantasy zone military madness battle royal legendary axe blazing lasers bloody wolf will sell games separatley at each your kidding man o man you can buy the system new for at electronic boutique and those games are only about brand new maybe you should think about that price again if you really need the money wayne state university steve teolis cass ave detroit mi steve busop cit wayne edu
misc.forsale	midi keyboard roland hs synthplus voice polyphonic fully programmable analog synthesizer full size keys midi memory to store patches built in speakers connectors midi in thru out input expansion pedal head phones tape load save patch shift pedal hold output asking harmon mps ohio state edu
misc.forsale	wanted the nine mile walk article crossposted from rec arts books author was mark wilson posted on wed apr gmt i am looking for the following book which i have only seen as a paperback i lent my copy to someone and forgetfulness has made that pronoun permanently indeterminate i am looking for one or two copies title the nine mile walk and other stories unsure about the hyphen and the exact subtitle author harry kemelman author of all the rabbi mysteries it s a collection of short mystery stories please email mark ocsmd ocs com or call the number given below thanks mark mark wilson online computer systems or try email address mark ocsmd ocs com this file disclaims everything signed with my signature i mean it mark wilson online computer systems or try email address mark ocsmd ocs com this file disclaims everything signed with my signature i mean it
misc.forsale	forsale steyr mm parabellum for sale steyr gb mm parabellum this is an excellent handgun for the first time buyer or an experienced handgunner it is in excellent condition i never had a misfire with it make steyr model gb mm parabellum magazine rounds barrel hard chrome plated inside and outside for long term durability and wear resistance fixed mount price obo comes with magazines original owner s manual contact t ahmad ihlpm tarq weekdays
misc.forsale	wanted ide hard drive and a vga monitor e mail
misc.forsale	wysiwyg word processor for dos hey i ve just upgraded my laptop to a windows capable one so i don t need my dos word processor anymore it s a great word processor easy to use undemanding on the system and best of all it has a wysiwyg editing mode this is something word perfect doesn t have and all i m asking is shipping it even comes with several hundred dollars of free utilities for a full featured wysiwyg word processor perfect for a laptop or a lower powered machine check this out ca it has ca wysiwyg mode editing word perfect still trying to do ca this ca graphics importing scaling and resizing comes ca with free art ca scalable fonts typefaces included ca indentical from screen to printer see below for more info ca on font generator ca on line spell checking and thesaurus ca see below for more info ca great level outliner ca multiple columns ca dual document opening and editing ca line and box drawing ca search and replace ca cut copy insert and paste between documents and inside ca documents ca justification control ca resettable margins tabs and line spacing ca savable layouts ca headers footers page numbering ca table of contents ca multiple rulers in one document ca mail merge ca ca also included as free utilities ca publisher s powerpak font engine this gives pfs write ca scalable fonts in sizes from pt to pt support for ca screen in write and printer even pin dot matrix looks ca great comes with typefaces supports subscripts and ca superscripts too ca grammatik iv the grammar and style ca checker comes with a quick reference card for easy use ca it really helped my punctuation and usage ca international correctspell english and roget s electronic ca thesaurus th dictionary and thesuarus pack is published by ca the publishers of the american hertiage dictionary if you ca can t trust them with your words who can you trust ca clickart business images a sampler of the clickart ca library perfect for importing into pfs write documents ca ca i bought this product year ago for its easy to use ca and turns out great looking documents even on a dot matrix ca printer so if you want wysiwyg editing for your dos computer ca now pfs write is here ca ca i m looking to get it comes with full ca documentation registration cards the box its still in ca good condition both and disks for pfs write ca and grammatik and the clickart on a disk the ca utilities pfs write comes with are worth alone so ca for a full featured wp is a real bargain buyer pays ca shipping ca ca please respond by email to carolan owlnet rice edu ca or call ca ca bryan dunne
misc.forsale	vcr cassette generator tube tester lawn spreader for sale vcr samsung vr basic head machine it has a problem loading the tape otherwise it plays and records just fine remote is missing or make offer cassette deck pioneer ct f three head servo control dolby this was the top of the line or close to it several years ago the rewind doesn t work well all else is fine service owners manual included or offer generator vac watt has a voltmeter w duplex outlet a hp engine should drive it to full output manufactered by master mechanic in burlington wisconsin or make an offer eico model tube tester or make offer lawn spreader scott precision flow model pf drop type excellent condition ideal for a smaller yard or make offer craig days home
misc.forsale	printer and game for sale i have the following for sale ti printer in excellect working condition postage game the lost files of sherlock holmes original box and contents used time and unregistered postage if iterested email me at email caldwell epcot spdc ti com and i will hold it for you
misc.forsale	polk s s forsale pair of polk s for sale brand new never opened craigb rpi edu
misc.forsale	apartment for rent in russia apartment for rent in downtown moscow room furnished apartment in a very nice location minutes walk to belorusskaya subway station walking distance to kremlin major shopping centers theaters restaurants and government buildings available in early june please call or send e mail vsloutsk magnus acs ohio state edu
misc.forsale	items for sale items for sale price listed or best offer kfc svga monitor x dp non interlaced screen still under warranty brand new baud compuadd modem box docs software cga monitor with cga parallel card sco unix v unlimited user os has the base and extended utilities and uucp turbo c turbo c the complete reference book serial i o card serial port joystick three button ide controller with serial parallel and one game port available each ask for ralf
misc.forsale	wanted singer featherweight i m looking for a singer featherweight sewing machine old black sewing machine in black case please contact mary flagle lee mlf unlinfo unl edu
misc.forsale	baseball card for sale i have a roberto clemente topps baseball card for sale in near mint condition really as close to mint condition as you can get it lists for in my most recent baseball card pricelist for may i am offering it for and i ll pay the certified postage to ship it to you please respond to jack t sendak office wang com or at ext in maryland
misc.forsale	nth engine graphics cards i have the following nth engine graphics cards for sale w drivers for autocad r display list proccessing is done through hardware b x b x i will take the highest reanable offer charles paschal total support computer systems tampa uucp paschal tscs fax us mail post office box tampa florida
misc.forsale	novell a i have a novell a that i will sell for which can be upgraded to for the novell has complete documentation but no network cards except the id card charles paschal total support computer systems tampa uucp paschal tscs fax us mail post office box tampa florida
misc.forsale	re roland juno synthesizer uniden radar detector sale actually they synth used in jump was an oberheim watch the video kevin
misc.forsale	high end car stereo for sale note this is being posted for a friend do not reply to my account please direct all replies to scott burke at scott sparcom com alpine s cd shuttle paid want obo alpine remote cd changer control paid want obo boston proseries subwoofers box paid want obo all equipment is under months old and includes a full replacement year warranty from original point of purchase the subwoofer box was custom designed to fit in the back of a bronco ii and is by by send replies to scott sparcom com scott burke project leader sparcom corporation corvallis or scott sparcom com telephone fax just waiting for the nuts brett barksdale brett porky oce orst edu
misc.forsale	for sale misc ibm stuff internal low density disk drive monochrome monitor motherboard built in parallel and serial ports built in mono and color output mhz libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat i define myself tsa cellar org
misc.forsale	ms c c book forsale regards steve steve shapiro all views and opinions expressed sks computer consulting inc are my own and are offered as is steve shapiro f n z fidonet org bbs n
misc.forsale	re question suggestion for everyone please read if both paries do this then the transaction will obviously be cod this allows both parties to exercise the amount of trust they see fit cod is fine until the buyer opens the box to find they paid for a brick or if it the seller allows for a personal check to be used on a cod it s fine till a stop payment is made there are few methods to protect both buyer and seller in any sort of transaction even with merchants and customers there are problems stolen credit cards chargebacks no return policies and getting the wrong item etc about the only protection available to to do business with someone you trust someone who has been around for a while jeff jeff freeman go porch toll free front porch computers voice rt box fax chatsworth ga compuserve id internet jfreeman frontporch win net
misc.forsale	car for sale from mikefran wed apr edt article of csc general newsgroups dc forsale dc general um general csc general path wam umd edu mikefran from mikefran wam umd edu michael francis subject car for sale message id apr wam umd edu keywords volkswagon scirocco sender usenet wam umd edu usenet news system nntp posting host rac wam umd edu organization workstations at maryland university of maryland college park distribution csc um dc date wed apr gmt volkswagon scirocco gold exterior and interior speed transmission am fm stereo with cassette sunroof engine in good condition new tires needs work on front left control arm because of damage caused by pothole runs well asking as is obo email mikefran wam umd edu
misc.forsale	transmitter tube i ve got an eimac a pr a transmitter linear amplifier tube unused in original packaging but opened and inventoried i d guarantee this tube to operate and be as observation and its paperwork say unused although i have no transmitter to test it with offers dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
misc.forsale	re expen ive motorola handheld radio for peanuts agent x writes i can no longer use anything japanese kenwood yeasu icom alinco its all junk well i m not sure i d go quite that far but i agree that motorola gear is of better quality the question is how much that quality is worth to a ham in amateur service not commercial service this radio can hear a repeater thats miles away without an antenna ok great but how often does that come up how good is good enough and how much is someone willing to pay for it a good ham quality ht is maybe while a commercial quality one is maybe is the increased reliability and performance worth times the price in amateur service only the individual involved can answer that question and each ham has to decide for him herself if motorola quality is worth times the price to you then more power to ya but i m amazed that folks make that choice for me given that i ve got to spend i l pick the yaesu ht and a nice new hf rig every time over a motorola ht alone no matter how good it is to me ham quality gear is good enough to each his own mike n pdy these are my opinions only
misc.forsale	attention super nintendo and genesis players read this im pleased to announce a new revolutionary device that allows you to copy super nintendo and genesis games to floppy disk then later play from floppy disk with out the cart this is a independent system that interfaces with your snes or genesis other features store multiple copies of cart save game to disk up to saves to disk save your position in snes games that don t norally have a save feature switch your snes into slow motion mode use codes to get unlimited lives and other cheats in many games the multi game hunter is capable of copying both snes and genesis game carts to standard ibm pc formated floppy disks the games can them be played directly from the floppy disk note it does not require a pc full color on screen icons and menus make operation for the mgh so simple that even a child could operate it options can be selected simply by choosing the selection with the game controller and pressin a button add a game saver adapter to your system for more game playing power the game saver allows you to save your position to disk in almost any snes game reload your saved position any time enable it s slow motion feature for those really tough games for more control over game play we have the game finger software the game finger software can give you unlimited lives or warp you to new levels in your favorite snes games bring back to life those really frustrating games also if you know how to program asm code you can create your own snes demos or games mgh includes base unit disk drive high density drive megabit ram sram all adapters and comes ready to hook up to your gameing system only thing not included is the power supply which you can pick up at radio shack all for only disclamer the customer assumes all responsibility for the use and or misuse of this product we in no way encourage nor condone the use of this product for software piracy this device is intended soley for making legal backup copies neither nintendo or sega has giving official endorsement of the products described herein email me for more info or to make a purchase
misc.forsale	dak shorwave radio digitally tuned shorwave radio with alarm clock and presets per band has am fm sw and sw bands asking shppg reply for more details thanks pete mwieu cmuvm cmich edu
misc.forsale	portable color t v hey i have a color watchman by sony for sale it is x x in total and the screen is diagonal over wide over tall i got it years ago for so i m asking obo vhf and uhf switch for channels through slot for audio video in from vcr appropriate cord provided slot for phones slot for a c adaptor a c adaptor also provided slot for external antenna internal antenna provided on off switch manual tuning volume brightness and hue battery run as well aa batteries provided it s been used very little looks like new email if interested dave
misc.forsale	white toyota camry le must sell must sell toyota camry le car has ac ps pb sunroof am fm cassette radio cruise control etc miles white with red interior car is in excellent condition it is located in the paramus nj area or best offer if interested please call
misc.forsale	oakleys for sale items wanted heya all i ve got a pair of oakley forsale there are frogskins with aurborn red there are no scratches and only used them once or twice last summer i m looking for about dollars but please give me a bid i m am looking for the following items a bubble jet printer that works and is el cheapo i was looking for a cannon bj but if u have a bubble jet to sell please tell me i m looking to spend about or so a sound cards sound blaster compatible again i m looking fer something cheap such as or so dollars thanks whirley address whirley sage cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	bc xlt handheld radio scanner hello i have a bc xlt handheld radio scanner which recieves police fire ambulance aircraft cordless and cellular phone etc the unit is in original condition and comes with the manual the power supply and battery charger price is plus s h austin harris aharris athena cs uga edu
misc.forsale	wanted original shanghai for pc i am looking for shanghai solitaire game with mahjongg tiles for pc s if you have a copy laying around send email to richg sequent com thanks ooo o rich garrett o oo richg sequent com o work o o
misc.forsale	re vhs movie for sale didn t mcdonald s sell copies of dances with wovies for not too long ago they were also selling babes in toyland the scott baio version and something even more forgettable just think video drive thru i ll take a mcrib a mcchicken and a copy of debbie does mcdallas to go do you want fries and napkins with that bob his rrb caball vcu edu after this post i m really going to start studying really
misc.forsale	new m and used floppy disks for sale i have some brand new shrinkwrapped boxes of floppy disks that i would like to sell they are all m disks boxes of ss sd floppy disks boxes of ds dd w wp floppy disks misco is selling the ss sd m disks for for a box of ten and they are selling the ds dd m disks for for a box of ten i will take the best offer i can get for the disks as many boxes as you want i also have a quantity of floppy disks that some people were getting rid of probably due to an upgrade to a newer drive system all the disks are used and most have labels on them but they all appear to be in good physical shape however i make no guarantees of the quality of these disks here are the statistics quantity make type m single side double density soft sector bytes record memorex single side double density soft sector bytes record i will accept the best offer i receive for the disks and i m willing to sell them off in different amounts the minimum being a box of ten if i get no offers on these disks i would considering throwing them in with the new disks i m selling above i also have a head cleaning kit for disk drives for which i will take the best offer i can get all sales are final i would prefer to ship cod and add the shipping costs onto the total order cost please send e mail to formula athena mit edu if interested address ronald r duff jr phone home lamplighter drive work mit room shrewsbury ma internet formula athena mit edu
misc.forsale	wanted one way flight from des moines to chicago hi i need a one way flight ticket from des moines to chicago on the th of may please send your replies to jasonlim iastate edu or to this account as soon as possible thank you
misc.forsale	car audio forsale car audio products for sale kicker stillwater designs ss x kickers in a sealed box the box is manufactured direct from kicker instructions asking shipping kicker stillwater designs kicker subwoofers instructions asking shipping sold as a pair only kenwood kac amp watts x ohm stable box instruction included asking shipping im selling the above item for a friend without internet access you can either e mail me or call him mike metalios at foxfire
misc.forsale	car amp forsale car audio system items sony xr head unit radio pullout w x max dolby b controls all sony cd changers disc track select track disc scan repeat shuffle play features auto reverse logic controls am fm presets strong station memory preset scan tuner monitor seek manual tuning mono stereo and local dx switches metal tape compatible fader orig sony cdx a disc cd changer x oversampling dual d a converters with single clock design features one beam laser spring and silicon charged suspension system horizontal or vertical mounting pin din connector disc magazine connecting cable hz thd orig asking for both the radio cd controller and the cd changer there are no problems with either unit and they are both in reasonably good condition the radio and cd changers will only be sold together two coustic amp channels bridgeable w x w x into ohms from hz with thd channel w x into ohms from hz with thd or channels w x into ohms from hz with thd ohm stable features pwm switching power supply w protection circuits orig asking each the units are in good working condition and are currently being used to supply power to my subs can demonstrate power ratings if you are interested in any of the above items or have any questions drop me some e mail foxfire access digex com
misc.forsale	computer stuff for sale computer hardware all are working fine last time checked tandy k external floppy drive with cable hardly used software all software include original manual some even with registeration card per onal financial accountant financial statements balance sheet income expense etc ainsworth keyboard trainer typing teacher easy working tri pack includes following filer database to store all kinds of information planner spreadsheet writer an easy to use word processor great for simple calculations work processing etc books inside the norton utilities revised and expanded by brady books authored by rob krumm introduction by peter norton maker of norton utilities includes detachable quick reference card to norton utilities shows you how to get the most from the norton utilities standard edition the norton utilities advanced edition norton commander norton editor norton disk doctor plus the peter norton on line guides the only book that does full justice to the power and variety of all the norton utility software peter norton price originally was asking turbo pascal express revised one disk ready to run assembly language routines that make turbo pascal faster more powerful and easier to use equipment determination routines and access to expanded memory extensive keyboard and mouse input functions extremely fast video facilities including text graphics routines for fancy menus and windows routines for bit operations and data compression routines for elaborate printer control formatting and error recovery powerful routines for searching directory trees and displaying tree diagrams detailed information about writing other assembly routines for assembly language programmers original price was asking hard disk power w the jamsa disk utilities two disks complete guide to hard disk efficiency power techniques for maximum pc performance understand how your hard disk works beneath the surface original price was asking prices does not include shipping prices are negotiable please contact jian at or e mail to jlz sonata cc purdue edu preferred if you are interested jian liang zhen lifeforms are extinct on other planets because jlz sonata cc purdue edu their science is more advanced than ours dos windows desqview os unix
misc.forsale	usr k hst external mo for sale u s robotics k hst external modem including power adapter users guide and quick reference card call me voice at let s talk about it herb qmpro dogs come when you call cats have answering machines
misc.forsale	for sale window shades kirsch pull down window shades white light filtering wide high can be cut to width brand new unopened best quality vinyl coated cotton mounting brackets included bought at at j c penney rajaram sun com w h
misc.forsale	porsche posting for a friend porsche new this vehicle was today book list this vehicle between to perfect in every way with all options including new paint leather interior sunroof and low miles call ask for frank and lets negotiate trades considered
misc.forsale	m hd forsale or trade i have a m ide hd forsale or trade i would like to trade it if possible hd m ide westren digital no errors or bad sectors ms access time kilobytes per second transfer rate working in my computer right now looking for in a trade maybe sega genesis a pair of sub woffers souround sound stereo reciever any kind of electornic equipment if you have electorinic equipment i like almost any kind of computrer car or home equipment if you want to make an offer on a trade let me know cd player ect please if you are interested in a trade let me know email rogess sage cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	brand new h p toner for sale cheap for sale brand new hewlett packard toner cartridge model number hp a o i am selling this toner because i recently bought a brother hl v printer and the toner that i am selling i activated the toner but ended up returning the printer the store however would not take back the toner this toner has been used to print only three pages and is in perfect condition i will protect it for shipment so that no toner escapes it comes with all original packaging and manuals the toner is compatible with any laser printer that uses the model number of the toner i am selling just look in your manual to see if it will work for you i will not go below i will pay the shipping to anywhere in the continental united states if you are interested leave me email or call kirk peterson at anytime thank you
misc.forsale	ibm software for sale cheap for sale three software packages for ibm pc and compatible computers o wing commander deluxe edition o includes secret missions o includes all original packaging manuals and disks o includes registration card so you can send it in and register it in your name o original price for wing commander o original price for secret missions i o original price for secret missions ii o total original price o my asking price for all these of these games together is o wing commander and the secret missions is a battle and flight simulator set in space it includes all the standard fun things about flight simulators like taking off and landing on carriers flying of course and better yet it is also a battle simulator it is a lot of fun indeed o an ibm pc or compatible with at least k and dual floppies or a hard drive is required o winway resume for windows o includes all original packaging manuals and disks o original price o my asking price o winway resume is a resume writing program for windows it is an excellent program it got me a job and running under the window s interface makes it very very easy to use all you do is answer a few questions and print out the results in just a few minutes you have a beautifully and professionally designed resume o an ibm pc with windows or later installed and mb of free hard disk space is required o more typefaces o includes all original packaging manuals and disks o original price o my asking price o more typefaces is a package of three typetype font families for a total of twelve fonts for windows the fonts included are marque crystal and architech and of course italic bold and bold italic versions are included with all those fonts because of the unique font software included with the package these fonts can be used with either the morefonts typeface program adobe type manager truetype geoworks express publisher and coreldraw o an ibm pc with windows and a hard disk is required if you want to use the typefaces in truetype format for all other formats an ibm pc and a hard disk with one of the programs listed above is required if you are interested in any of these programs please either leave me email or call kirk peterson at anytime if i don t answer leave me a message on my answering machine and i ll call you back i will pay the shipping on all of the programs to anywhere in the continental united states thank you
misc.forsale	genesis carts forsale posting for a friend please call steve if interested sega genesis games for sale in original boxes with original manuals approximately month old john madden football electronic arts obo ecco the dolphin sega obo again i m posting for a friend if interested call steve
misc.forsale	gb disk for sale i have a gb full size seagate scsi disk for sale model no is st n this is a brand new disk never been used or formatted send me your offer at lohia bharat aux apple com raj
misc.forsale	saturn for sale saturn sl spd k miles ac cruise abs air bag cassette anti theft excellent obo consider dr spd compact as part trade damien berger berger ug eds com
misc.forsale	hobiecat special for sale hobie cat special very good condition with trailer catbox righting system many extras boat is currently garaged in natick ma miles east of boston contact rclar ctp com or call
misc.forsale	for sale complete communicator card for ibm voicemail modem fax complete communicator latest vers new in box works in dos or windows one card you get fax voicemail and modem auto switch one line handles all fax voicemail and modem communications new dollars and you pay shipping
misc.forsale	optonica tuner and integrated amp forsale i have an old optonica tuner and integrated amp that i no longer use the integrated amp section does not work right now but should not cost much to fix i believe that it is just a chip i have used it as a preamp and it works great this is a very nice looking and well built set they both are low profile but the amp is rather heavy the tuner is in fine working condition and is a match to the amp the amp is rated at w ch these peices went for about new i would like to get obo for the pair if anybody has knowledge anough to fix the amp i have had an estimate done that it should cost less than in parts please email me if you are interested i will be moving back home for the summer and will sell it back there if i do not do so here todd todd premo purdue universtiy environmental engineering
misc.forsale	onkyo integra series integrated amp for sale i have a onkyo integrated amplifier that i am looking to get rid of w ch works great integra series not a problem asking obo if your interested call me at or email this address make me an offer todd todd premo purdue universtiy environmental engineering
misc.forsale	honda accord lx honda accord lx light brown four door power windows power brakes power locks power steering power antenna am fm cassette totally cloth interior very nice miles but excellent condition must sell quit my job to go back to school blue book in idaho asking only obo email bartmich cwis isu edu phone pocatello idaho from michael barta s amiga send email to i s u electronics student bartmich cwis isu edu
misc.forsale	cd roms sale new i m looking to find some people interested in getting some cd rom s below is a list with their prices if you are interested in any of these send me some mail and i can guarantee this price if you are not local their will be a shipping cost and cod cost if you prefer it to be shipped that way marcus american business phonebook dos animals dos animals mpc audoban birds dos audoban mammals dos barney bear goes to school dos bible library dos bibles and religion dos book of lists dos britannicas family choice dos britamrica select dos business economics dos business backgrounds dos business master dos carmen san diego lwhere is mpc cd play launch dos cd rom software jukebox dos cia vorld taur dos chess master mpc dos classic col lection dos clipert goliath dos colossal cookbook dos delorme s atlas usa win desert storm mpc deathstar arcade battles dos dictionaries language dos education master dos electronic home library dos family doctor dos family encyclopedia by comptons dos family encyclopedia by comptons mpc game master dos game pack ii dos golden immortal dos great cities of the world dos greet cities of the world mpc great cities of the world ii dos great cities of the world ii mpc groliers encyclopedia dos groliers encyclopedia mpc guiness disc dos ham radio dos information usa dos islands designs dos jets props dos jones fast lane dos mps kgb cia world fact book dos kings quest dos mpc library of the future dos loom dos mpc wizard mpc macmillan kids dictionary mpc magazine rack dos majestic places dos mavis beacon teaches typing mpc mixed up mother goose dos mpc money money money dos monkey island dos oak cd stand dos our solar system dos presidents dos publish it dos reference library dos secret weapons luftwaffe mpc shereware games dos shereware overload dos sher holmes consul det mpc sleeping beauty dos srd cd software bundle titles n a stellar dos mpc story time interactive dos the cd rom collection dos time magazine almanac current dos time table of hist sci innovation dos tons gigs dos too many typefonts dos total baseball dos us atlas w automap dos us history dos us world atlas dos mpc us wars civil war dos wild places dos wing com ultima vi dos mpc world view dos e mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet uu net voice internet mkbaird david uunet uu net e mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet uu net voice internet mkbaird david uunet uu net
misc.forsale	minolta fd mm forsale minolta fd mm lens for sale good condition asking rupin dang dartmouth edu
misc.forsale	panasonic answering machine forsale auto logic panasonic answering machine with dual cassette system i will include cassettes and ac power adaptor excellent condition asking with accessories
misc.forsale	mostly non computer items rochester area swell items for sale hardly any computer stuff o lotus student edition for dos this does just about everything that standard release could do but not as much of it worksheet size is limited to columns by rows there is no translation facility for importing data from other packages and the student edition does not write files that can be accessed by release includes manual original distribution diskettes k and key board templates o subaru service manuals this is not a complete set but includes sections which cover mechanical components suspension wheels axles steering brakes pedals control cables heater ventilator air conditioning body body exterior doors windows seats seat belts interior instrument panel and electrical engine electrical system body electrical system wiring diagram and trouble shooting these are the genuine subaru issue manuals they are for model year but have plenty of good information that applies to other years as well o miscellaneous darkroom equipment solar enlarger several objective lenses with easel and timer negative carriers for mm and x misc printing masks developing tanks thermometer trays constant temperature bath ground glass mirrors darkroom lamps glassware el cheap o tripods and as they say much more o beautiful antique buffet solid cherry no veneer handmade with very interesting dovetail corners in the drawers built we think around not gaudy or covered with gew gaws a simple elegant piece of furniture but too big long tall deep for our little cape cod house will deliver pricier items ie over anywhere in the rochester area and will consider delivering the others will deliver any of it on or near uofr campus between now and graduation call or e mail paul or mary just south of rochester ny plkg ltd uhura cc rochester edu
misc.forsale	mb simms for sale pin ns for mac included shipping
misc.forsale	camera bags for sale large padded cordura bag maker unknown nge exterior black straps and interior five outside pocket plus lid compartment lid overlaps internal dividers can be repositioned held my whole bronica system metz flash etc small nikon shoulder bag sorry sold shippe small nikon belt pouch khaki like similar in design army ammo pouch belt clips etc holds flash or small zoom lens cleaner etc domke belt pouch black also has metal loops of you want to attach strap velcro closure similar to in concept but bigger holds zoom or flash small accessories etc hardly used cost me originally will sell for coast camera bag tan with brown strap main and front pocket can hold af slr with small zoom plus flash film etc matl looks like gore tex but i don t think it really is terms payment in advance by money order bank check or cash buyer pays shipping must go ups for the others send me an adequate self addressed mailing envelope padded recommended with enough postage everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein
misc.forsale	very bare micronics system bare means what it says you get a case a power supply and a motherboard with ram and a coprocessor everything else is yours to add as you like the case power supply standard desktop case watt power supply with the usual connectors room for five floppy hard drives three visible two internal the motherboard us made micronics slot motherboard with intel dx mhz cpu kb sram cache mb us ram using x mb simms worth alone cyrix d math coprocessor worth alone norton si rating of latest version phoenix bios please do not post email saying but i can get a taiwanese superclone for only including a free toaster i am certain you can find a cheaper brand x board without even breaking a sweat new micronics cpus command a several hundred dollar premium because they are us made use high quality components and are known to be both very reliable and compatible they have been oemed in systems sold by both gateway and zeos at various points in the past check out the ads in the back pages of byte or pc magazine if you want to see this price differential for yourself price complete less if you don t want need the case and power supply the board is fully guaranteed email for further details or for any questions thanks david ruggiero jdavid halcyon com seattle wa home of the moss people
misc.forsale	nintendo games forsale and a dead nintendo forsale nintendo control deck with two controllers and gun one controller has grips attached the nes will only connect to a composite monitor or tv with audio and video rca input jacks and needs some repairs or best offer games for sale tecmo baseball techmo bowl double dribble wayne gretzky hockey golf super mario duck hunt toobin spelunker tecmo super bowl total i ll give all of them to you for or best offer and throw in the control deck i ll also accept the best offer for each of the games the oldest of these is two years old most of them are less than a year old tom warning signature under construction enter at your own risc
misc.forsale	for sale urei a band equalizer i have a urei a band mono equilizer for sale anyone who knows this unit knows it s been a recording studio standard for years it s a pretty straightforward unit with balanced ins and outs power supply caps were recently replaced and i added xlr connectors which can be easily removed if you prefer as i mounted them on a bracket outside the case the unit is in good shape and is sonically very clean i m asking ups shipping they re going for generally make me an offer tod treganowan computing and information services university of pittsburgh work home
misc.forsale	looking music for macintosh i m trying to set up a personal studio what i m looking for are a cheap sampler rack or with keyboard or a cheap sound card audiomedia i or ii or something similar cheap is of course relative
misc.forsale	mfm controller wanted i have a friend who is looking to buy mfm controller if you have one for sale would you please contact me through email thanx ehud ehud eng umd edu eoentung cbis com
misc.forsale	cd s for sale hi i have the following cd s for sale these are absolutely new and in the original packing artist album original sale price price madonna the immaculate collection pet shop boys discography if you are interested pls contact me at parikhma ucunix san uc edu thanks m parikh
misc.forsale	stealth vram sale item a brand new stealth vram hi color card w meg display price it comes with install disk turbo windows x drivers w bit color halo desktop imager bit for windows x advanced autocad accelerator includes big picture a complete manual if interested please e mail sunbum cory berkeley edu thanks
misc.forsale	cd for sale cd s for sale jon bon jovi new jersey boomerang soundtrack the police every breath you take s h e mail rtsbangi memstvx memst edu
misc.forsale	toyota camry super deluxe k toyota camry top of the line vehicle blue book asking k miles auto transmission has everything owned by a meticulous automoble mechanic call ask for bob posted for a friend
misc.forsale	rc car for trade title just bout says it all grasshopper remote controlled car for sale trade features racing engine installed original included as well sets of tires futaba channel radio with servos receiver body completly refinished great shape battery and charger every thing you need to have it running right out of the box very fast everything i haven t run this thing in a long time i had it out the other day just to check on it and everything is a ok i d listen to any cash offers but am more interested in trading for some extra storage for my computer if you have any of the following and are interested in a trade drop me a line ide hard drive megs must be wide tall scsi hard drive megs must be wide tall scsi tape backup any make size scsi cd rom baud modem external please leave any offers questions in email to lgibb nyx cs du edu
misc.forsale	wanted xapshot digital camera wanted cannon s xapshot digital camera i d be interested in any other makes but the xapshot is the only one i m familiar with i need one with a composite output and approx pictures per disk capability if you have one for sale or if you know of a cheap place to order one please leave me email at lgibb nyx cs du edu thanks
misc.forsale	vga card meg wanted it must have meg memory and support res x even higher will be better if it has pin ports and also supports ega cga that s better i will pay shipping for it let me knoe if u have one like this ailin
misc.forsale	re bally s holiday health club lifetime memership in article r v j t f access digex net jb access digex com jb writes in article c j k w visgraph uucp forrie visgraph uucp forrest aldrich writes for sale life time membership to the ballys holiday fitness club the original fee paid for this was over and i ll sell it for the membership is fully transferrable via proper paperwork does is include raquetball is it good at espree what is the annual fee since it is a life time membership you won t have to worry about it until your next life trey arthur csc at nasa langley aerospace engineer ms d hampton va j j arthur larc nasa gov
misc.forsale	nikkor af forsale nikkor af f zoom lens excellent condition i m looking to get the version so i m selling this asking no offers please
misc.forsale	re nikon fm and lens forsale fm has been sold following remains minolta md mm lens ricoh camera with zoom lens identical features as nikon fe plus some more great condition inquire about low price s vhs tapes brand new fuji high quality inquire
misc.forsale	mhz mhz amps mtr ht for sale i have the following equipment for sale kenwood th a mtr ht rf concepts mtr amp in out hamtronics class c continuous duty mhz watt in watt out amp all prices include shipping insurance for additional information contact me at the address below dave admiral david e ryan der anomaly sbs com uunet rayssd anomaly der
misc.forsale	sega genesis for sale trade game gear sega control panel super manaco gp ii catrridge one regular controller one turbo controller a c adapter a v cable stereo cable carrying bag i would like plus shipping or trade with game gear and game please e mail if you feel interested thank you bill
misc.forsale	for sale high guality conifer oil from russia ton ton inguiry by address er eridan chuvashia su
misc.forsale	for sale high guality conifer oil from russia ton ton inguiry by address er eridan chuvashia su
misc.forsale	amiga s for sale for sale amigas commodore amiga best offer k ram internal floppy drive detachable keyboard button mouse commodore amiga best offer k ram internal floppy drive button mouse rgb monitor best offer external floppy drive best offer call brian dickman at or send e mail to dickman con huey millersv edu
misc.forsale	wanted video equipment repost i am looking for a working docking deck deck that goes on back of camera for an old jvc gx s tube video camera any format is acceptable please send me a message if you even know anything about decks for the gx s also interested in any video equipment for sale professional or consumer thank you bbates pro freedom van wa us pro freedom bbs
misc.forsale	pc network and office equipment long repost lower prices new posting lower prices make offers on anything that seems interesting a company i m associated with is closing out some inventory and office equipment here s what s available quan item description price ea new additions novell user version of best offer netware advanced netware with tts sft ii system fault tolerance level remember ii disk duplexing mirroring v sells transaction tracking fault for tolerant file system etc for just the manuals alone take users up a foot and a half of shelf space hayes lanstep hayes peer to peer lan starter package operating system and email netbios compatible expands up to users unopened canon np great little copy machine makes great copies just needs toner reduce enlarge etc very good condition a bargain end of new items bytex ringout token ring cable and mau was testing and certification tool this is the standard now handheld testing unit used by large companies such as coca cola and american express to certify their physical layer current retail price these are demo or new microtest lanmodem excellent modem server for novell was networks supports remote lan node indial modem pooling and lan to lan asynchronous routing now ethernet version current retail price microtest lanport standalone ethernet print was aui com server for novell networks the intel netportii is now ea based on this original retail most of these are brand new microtest lanport see above bnc com microtest lanport see above bnc com com microtest lanport see above aui com com microtest lanport see above aui lpt microtest lanport see above bnc lpt token ring mau port ibm clone milan mil p aui to baset mini transceiver was now qms smartwriter x hp laserjet plus compatible was laser printer ppm dpi based on the canon engine it now has serial and ibm twinax ports emulates hp epson fx ibm proprinter diablo and qume downloads hp fonts reliable ibm quietwriter quiet letter quality printer sheet at a time feed have extra ribbon cartridges ibm tractor feed for the quietwriter above ibm pc xt compatible misc pc xt compatible computers was some are pcs limited original dell computer co some are tech pc xt these come with now at least a mb hard disk a kb floppy monochrome video card keyboard and kb of memory ibm pc at or compatible some of these are original ibm was at s some are turbo clones clone brands include tandon acer and everex standard now equipment is the same as above except most have mb hard drives and mb floppy amber monitor for pc ibm compatible monochrome ttl type brands vary including samsung magnavox and adi mostly want to stay local on these too hard to ship ibm green monitor ubiquitous ibm pc display monochrome ttl type local see above zenith zfl laptop pc full size and full was travel keyboard xt compatible backlit supertwist display now dual k floppies accton ethercoax w bit bnc ethernet interface was card for pc compatibles this unit is nicely made mostly now also have used bo surface mount clone of the ubiquitous western digital wd e new in box with disk western digital wd e the real mccoy version of the above drivers are available for just about anything used surprising performance for an bit card no dma hassles hedaka modem internal for pc compatibles was in box almost new works fine now hayes b internal internal real hayes modem for pc compatibles untested terms on the above are c o d shipping extra as usual offers are welcome but i think most of these prices are more than fair most of this equipment is tested and working perfectly unless otherwise noted please contact me via email as follows pk wet com netcom hoptoad wet pk thanks
misc.forsale	for sale c system w printer obo commodore epson homewriter pin printer d s disk drive joysticks mouse lotsa software both games and apps rapid fire joystick adapter about a year old obo c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu s ense state university of new york stony brook e ngineer
misc.forsale	marvel comics for sale mostly cover price comics for sale all are marvel and the majority of the comics are cover price buyer pays shipping shipping costs will vary with the quantity you buy all reasonable offers will be considered punisher w j each punisher each regular series x factor annual silver surfer st rd print each x force ghost rider each new mutants nd each marvel comics presents each here you have it please send replies to u uicvm uic edu noel lorenzana thanks
misc.forsale	more comics for sale miscellaneous comics for sale i really would like to get rid of these for lack of space buyer pays shipping and all offers considered oh and the first purchase over in any of my posts gets a free maxx coupon or a trashed copy of amazing spidey here goes deathlok each annual special sleepwalker set or each next men ray deathstroke each darkhawk new warrior s fantasti four moon knight each hulk each punisher w z cage x force silver sable x calibur each hearts of darkness infinity guantlet each batman v pred each deluxe guardians of the galaxy spider man set spec spider man special hologram let me know if you d like to buy anything my address is u uicvm uic edu thanks noel lorenzana
misc.forsale	newtek video toaster link for sale i have a bout a dozen newtek video toaster links available these connect macs and the video toaster list is street price likely to be i can sell them off for including shipping anywhere factory shrinkwrapped plus tax if in california e mail rebop or call m f if you would like further info all toaster and toaster accessories and system components are available as well bob ulius rebop well sf ca us
misc.forsale	keyboard wanted i m looking to buy a working keyboard for a system preferably a layout i m looking to spend about david
misc.forsale	wanted avionics equip i m looking for good deals on the following used or new aviation headsets with mic handheld nav com tranciever may consider com only portable gps or loran navigator reply here or call only after pm please don t wake the night worker in my house if you must call during the day i can understand if you want your employer to pay for the call jay a snyder jay gdx uunet vogon compnect gdx jay this is your brain unix gdx bbs worldblazer this is your brain on drugs msdos unix and msdos file areas xenix bins jay a snyder jay gdx uunet vogon compnect gdx jay this is your brain unix gdx bbs worldblazer this is your brain on drugs msdos unix and msdos file areas xenix bins
misc.forsale	star trek tos novels package some reading from a recent interview trip waiting all day at o hare a month ago waiting out the storm here in new york the price of the phoenix the fate of the phoenix memory prime take the package for or in trade for a good used cd gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
misc.forsale	for sale ultrabots pc game electronics art s ultrabots game for sale with book and original disks in the original box or best offer contact unpingco raman ucsd edu
misc.forsale	synoptics lan h w for sale or trade synoptics model lan concentrators o new never used original packing o each unit has rj ports for mbps ethernet connectivity o included are one power supply manuals bracket hardware for racks o you can setup lans using unshielded twisted pair utp telephone wiring o both units o or trade i m looking for dx dx pc hardware email jerry ciz rose com phone hrs days a week rosereader r entered at rose rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
misc.forsale	xt clone for sale for sale ibm compatible xt personal computer dos brand acer age years specs k ram meg hard drive floppy drive color monitor baud usrobotics internal modem bundled with loads of software word processing communications spreadsheet games a good computer that successfully got me through all of my ba ms and half of my phd i decided to switch to a mac for my dissertation perfect for high school student college student or person who needs basic word processing spreadsheet and or database capabilities best offer reply to laura gurak userglub mts rpi edu laura j gurak phd candidate dept language literature and communication rensselaer polytechnic institute troy ny gurakl rpi edu rhetorics of science technology social aspects of computing rhet criticism
misc.forsale	macintosh plus for sale f o r s a l e c h e a p macintosh plus includes drives external software word excel pascal intro package hypercard tour etc leaving school in may must sell a steal at please reply e mail jr eve albany edu jr albnyvms bitnet only the strong
misc.forsale	sega genesis games for sale i have a sega genesis barely used that iud like to sell with the following games sonic the hedgehog i revenge of shinobi thunderforce iii i m asking obo i can best be reached via email or alternatively by phone at alexander hinds
misc.forsale	headphones for sale i have two pairs of headphones i d like to sell these are excellent and both in great condition denon ah d jvc ha d any reasonable offer accepted alexander hinds
misc.forsale	rok steady keyboard stand for sale update hello again folks been a while since i last sold thangs but the last time went with no problems and i m moving again so i have a few keyboard stands that i don t need anymore and don t want to drag back across the country ultimate support stand probably sold will see if it is gone by saturday pick up date rok steady tier keyboard stand or best offer try me one x shaped bottom unit with two sets of arms that attach to that to support keyboard above the main x shipping not included in the above prices but details can be worked out if you re interested in these items dan keldsen djk ccwf cc utexas edu dan keldsen are you now or have you ever been djk ccwf cc utexas edu a a berklee college student univ of texas austin b a member fan of billy death music composition mm c a max programmer m m consultant ask d a think c midi programmer
misc.forsale	for sale paradise svga accelerator card for sale paradise svga accelerator card x x x x up to times faster than vga manual drivers used for months perfect condition wd chipset obo for more info thouchin cs umr edu t j houchin
misc.forsale	re printing in p psilink com jack previdi p psilink com writes as a matter of fact d j it does make a difference almost a half million new users joined the internet last year many of them are commercial businesses the ban on commercial use of internet is no more this is true but long standing tradition has been to keep commercial advertising in the biz hierarchy trip martin night acm rpi edu night acm rpi edu rpi edu
misc.forsale	pc transporter for sale hello all i have a pc transporter for sale it will work with either an apple iie or a gs however i only have the gs installation kit this pct also has a co processor installed it comes with the latest software and a drive so what you get is pc transporter no problems runs great installation kit for above pct gs with video tape instructions all needed harware with color adapter for monitor co processor installed on board all manuals and software ver aepc one k drive to hook to the pct or gs brian laakso send me your reasonable offers email blaakso ub d umn edu
misc.forsale	k modem zoom here it is zoom k fax data v bis modem i have evreything only purchased in january will happily provide the fax comm software and box and manuals i am selling this for only s h cod nicolas nowinski feel free to call for quickest service olx td yes you to can become a asm programer for s h
misc.forsale	k fax modem for sale repost hi since the original buyer found out he couldn t use this modem for his mac i beleive i mentioned that it s an internal in my former post the modem is re available now this modem is suprafaxmodem v bis if interested please e mail thanks ps i am sorry i already lost those e mails stated interested in this modem if you all are still interested please e mail me again
misc.forsale	misc items pip tv tuner cb ant gym scanner run brds i have the following items for sale rabbit pip tuner soloflex like gym scanner mhz cb antenna blazer jimmy running boards rabbit pip picture in picture box this device when used with a vcr tuner will allow you to have a second channel popped up on any corner of the screen the you can press swap on the remote and the small picture will be swapped with the main picture the only limitation to this box is that it is has channel tuner this means that the box itself cannot tune higher than cable channel however if your vcr tuner is capable of tuning higher than this then you simply tune the vcr to the channel desired and then swap pictures assuming the alternate picture is channel or lower and it will work fine original cost will sell for running boards for jimmy or blazer brand new black running boards for the s models i purchased them and realized that i could not use after return period expired them because of wheel trim that i have installed on my vehicle original cost will sell for regency mx channel scanner recieves cellular frequencies mhz along with other bands brand new ni cad battery pack original cost will sell for gyn plex model workout gym similar to solo flex this gym is similar to solo flex in that it uses resistance bands to increase the effective lifting weight it is all black and made of steel i have an extra set of bands that i purchased that will be included original cost will sell for big stick cb antenna for mhz band will sell for because of weight or or other difficulty last items for atlanta area only please i will share non cod shipping charges thanks manny information gateway bbs public access newsgroups email please reply to hernandez info gw blackwlf mese com sysop hernandez info gw atl ga us
misc.forsale	forsale and hard drive packer bell mhz bit expansion slots external drive bays floppies internal drive bay hard drive mb floppy drive mb of ram or best offer including shipping segate mb st n scsi hard drive great shape controller mb format or best offer including shipping
misc.forsale	for sale track recorder i have a fostex x track recorder for sale it is in excellent condition and includes dolby noise reduction sub mixing inputs and uses normal cassettes if you are interested make me an offer please respond to zmed trc amoco com thanks mike
misc.forsale	for sale drum machine i have an alesis hr drum machine for sale it includes velocity sensitive pads digital sounds pattern memory and song memory if you are interested make me an offer please respond to zmed trc amoco com thanks mike
misc.forsale	mitsubishi eclipse gsx for sale for sale mitsubishi eclipse gsx all wheel drive hp valve turbo speed transmission limited slip differential am fm stereo w cd player cassette speakers fog lights air conditioning cruise control electric windows front rear intermittent wipers washers alloy wheels undercoated rustproofed miles maui blue excellent condition asking negotiable call pete work home or respond to pvannuis attmail com
misc.forsale	riding lawn mower for sale ariens riding lawn mower this mower is in perfect condition and contains the following features electric start inch cut double rear baggers new battery new engine one year old inflatable tires gives nice ride cushioned seat gives nice ride tuned up and blade sharpened in the past month i am moving into a house that has a small area of grass to cut and does not require such large mower the engine was replaced not rebuilt last year due to some faulty work done by a lawn mower repair shop price phone day nights weekends
misc.forsale	test this is a test thanks
misc.forsale	for sale mhz motherboard or system with megabytes i recently upgraded to a and have found out i don t really have a need for my old i d prefer to sell just the motherboard and keep the case etc so i ll offer the motherboard and case separately and let you decide i m asking for the motherboard which has mhz dx not sx megabytes of bit ns memory ami bios based on c t neat chipset this means the motherboard and bus circuitry timings are programmable the bios advanced configuration menus let you select system dma bus clock wait states command delays etc baby at sized fits in mini tower full sized or most any other case includes user s guide and a copy of the bios reference manual for more you could have the rest of the system too full size at case with watt power supply serial parallel game ports mb hard disk mb floppy disk keyboard video card choice of vga or if you re interested please give me a call the system is set up at my house in aloha and you re welcome to come test drive it random drivel from the keyboard of brad davis ncd inc beaverton or network computing devices bradd pcx ncd com ncd pc xdivision office
misc.forsale	syquest m cartrifge forsale i have new and slightly used syquest m cartridge forsale asking for all of them and shipping is included please reply by e mail richard
misc.forsale	dos posting for a friend reply to him not to me for sale micro soft dos v micro soft dos v release date diskettes manual in perfect conditioni best offer accepted i pay shippinig contact randall at randall clark byu edu home work
misc.forsale	nintendo system power pad light gun games nintendo bit system power pad light gun zapper controllers games supermario duck hunt power field and wings asking please reply to hv psuvm psu edu
misc.forsale	wanted super mm projector with sounds i am looking for super mm projector with sounds if anybody out there has one for sale semd email with the name of brand condition of projector and price for sale to kimd rpi edu it must have sound capability danny kimd rpi edu
misc.forsale	looking for battletech games on pc i am interested in both the battletech games for the ibm pc i will be grateful to anymore with information please email me if you would like to do my transaction thank you
misc.forsale	comics the complete set of the ad of buck rogers in the th century the complete set of the adventures of buck rogers is forsale make a reasonable offer email me back if interested thanks jamal socrates umd edu
misc.forsale	summer sublet available in baltimore large bedroom for rent from june aug in row house near jhu homewood no smokers or pets share house with or f law students f professional student wanted bath large kitchen remodeled last summer hardwood floors lr dr washer and dryer beautiful details rent utilities located on bus lines for more info email me rfp jhuvm
misc.forsale	summer sublet wanted in dc wanted summer sublet in nw dc on red metro line have own bedroom but can share common areas with others apartment or room for or less move in memorial day weekend through end of august no smokers email prinaoa yalevm or rfp jhuvm
misc.forsale	cd rom ibm cd rom drive ms drive only make offer or trade
misc.forsale	re brand new ide floppy s p g card for sale in article bitzm columbia dsu edu bitzm columbia dsu edu michael bitz writes for sale ide multi i o card brand new controls ide hard drives floppy drives or high or low density serial ports parallel port game port all in one card measuring x this card is brand new never been opened much less used at all including all shipping charges bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet a friend of mine is selling the same thing for new
rec.autos	re saturn s pricing policy in article c vir l r shuksan ds boeing com fredd shuksan fred dickey writes carolinafan uiuc cka uxa cso uiuc edu wrote i have been active in defending saturn lately on the net and would like to state my full opinion on the subject rather than just reply to others points the biggest problem some people seem to be having is that saturn dealers make k on a car i think most will agree with me that the car is comparably priced with its competitors that is they aren t overpriced compared to most cars in their class i don t understand the point of arguing over whether the dealer makes the k or not i have never understood what the big deal over dealer profits is either the only thing that i can figure out is that people believe that if they minimize the dealer profit they will minimize their total out of pocket expenses for the car while this may be true in some cases i do not believe that it is generally true i bought a saturn sl in january of at that time based on studying car prices i decided that there was no comparable car that was priced as cheaply as the saturn sure maybe i could have talked the price for some other car to the saturn price but my out of pocket expenses wouldn t have been any different what s important to me is how much money i have left after i buy the car reducing dealer profit is not the same thing as saving money show me how reducing dealer profit saves me money and i ll believe that it s important my experience has been that reducing dealer profit does not necessarily save me money fred say you bought your saturn at k with a dealer profit of k if the dealer profit is then you would only be paying k for the same car so isn t that saving money moreover if saturn really does reduce the dealer profit margin by then their cars will be even better deals say if the price of a saturn was already below market average for the class of cars then after they reduce the dealer profit it would be below market average it will attract even more people to buy saturns because it would save them money force the competitors to lower their prices to survive now not only will saturn owners benefit from a lower dealer profit even the buyers for other cars will pay less isn t that saving money doug
rec.autos	re are bmw s worth the price in article apr wdl loral com gwm spl spl loral com gary w mahan writes road and track bmw is s mile s road test annual s mile s those are the numbers i was quoting i have driven the older model but not the newer sure sounds like they got a ringer the is i drove was definitely faster than that if you want to quote numbers my aw autofile shows in mile in it quotes car and driver s figures of and oh btw these numbers are for the i i don t know how the addition of variable valve timing for affects it but don t take my word for it go drive it teddy
rec.autos	re headlights problem thanks to all of you who responded to my posting the problem with my truck s headlights low beam problem was a loose wire connection it was not the fuse as a minority of you suggested thanks again
rec.autos	left turn signal won t stop automaticaly the subject says it all my chev s pickup s left turn signal does not stop after turning what cause this to stop automaticaly is this a mechanical problem by the steering wheel note this truck has an after market steering wheel gt grant installed
rec.autos	re what is volvo wolfson regatta sps mot com stephen wolfson writes in article mar ugle unit no oep colargol edb tih no oep writes which turns into a teenagers car when it gets old the average lifelength of a volvo in norway is years and in sweden years of course someone pointed out when saab or volvo was running their at least years ads that the average milage was significantly less than than the us average that my be but every volvo i ve ever owned has lasted far longer than most other cars volvo miles still on the road volvo miles still on the road volvo miles still on the road and i ll admit the dealer repair cost is high but with some mechanical aptitude of your own and finding a good indi mechanic you can avoid most breakdowns and make the rest cheap the sum total of the repairs on the car with miles has been mufflers and a radiator whoa bad repair record and all of these cars are driven fairly hard none of them are at the head of a line of cars going mph the first two spend a lot of their operating life with the speedometer pegged and the only reason the doesn t is it has a mph speedo what i want to know is have all you people who hate volvos been traumatized by someone in a turbo wagon blowing you away on the road or what
rec.autos	re saturn pricing blatherings mihir pramod shah mps cec wustl edu wrote robert j wade writes until and more saturn retailers are built like in the same city most medium and large cities have a small handful of saturn dealers now sacramento has two saturn dealerships mihir shah ralph bean hprnd rose hp com
rec.autos	radio for toyota tercel i m looking for a replacement radio tape player for a toyota tercel standard off the shelf unit is fine but every place i ve gone to service merchandise etc doesn t have my car in its model application book i want to just take out the old radio and slide in the new with minimal time spent hooking it up and adjusting the dashboard if you have put in a new unit in a similar car i d like to hear what brand how easy it was to do the change and any other relevant information please answer via e mail thanks tom ostrand tom ostrand e mail tjo scr siemens com siemens corporate research phone college road east fax princeton nj
rec.autos	infiniti g i am thinking about getting an infiniti g in consumer reports it is ranked high in many catagories including highest in reliability index for compact cars mitsubushi galant was second followed by honda accord a couple of things though in looking around i have yet to see anyone driving this car i see lots of honda s and toyota s there is a special deal where i can get an infinity g fully loaded at dealer cost i have check this out and the numbers match up they are doing this because they are releasing and update mid version includes dual air bags and want to get rid of their old s i guess my question is is this a good deal also can anyone give me any feedback on infiniti thanks carl hoffman p s the other cars that i have test driven and which are in the running are mitsubishi galant honda accord and toyota camary
rec.autos	re basics about maintenance in article apr telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes in article piip bo agate berkeley edu hubertc whistle cs berkeley edu hung hsien hubert chang writes hi being new to a car owner i would pretty much like to know more about some basics of maintaining the cars i know the following oil has to be changed every miles change the oil filter too check tires before going on the high way and fill up the tank make that monthly or more often if you know one or more of your tires has a slow leak if the tire has a leak you should fix it what others thank you check all fluids regularly every month check the oil every time you fill up with gas doesn t work too well if the engine is hot its more accurate to check the oil when the engine is cool i e not when you are at a gas station craig
rec.autos	re integra gsr really about other cars in article apr nntpd lkg dec com kenyon xqzmoi enet dec com doug kenyon stardog champion writes it s great that all these other cars can out handle out corner and out accelerate an integra but you ve got to ask yourself one question do all these other cars have a moonroof with a sliding sunshade no wimpy pop up sunroofs or power sliding roofs that are opaque a moonroof that can be opened to the air closed to let just light in or shaded so that nothing comes in you ve just got to know what s important doug integra gs hahaha my sentiments exactly
rec.autos	re integra gsr in article mwf b w w njcc wisdom bubble org jonc njcc wisdom bubble org j on cochran writes i d like to add the beretta gtz as a car which will kick gs r butt anyday and it s a lot cheaper to boot i will take this one with a definate grain of salt performance data shows a if this poster has some proof other than my friend blew one away last week want proof here is some data on acceleration and handling from motor trend apr integra gs r beretta gtz mile l acc g s slalom wrong why don t you look again at motor trend s slalom times they are right along with the integra and the car does that with small inch tires that are all weather xgtv not to mention that the integra rides alot better than a beretta your acceleartion times also vary magazine to magazine road track and car driver have the gs r at to for road and track also quarter mile times vary from to you can t tell exactly by the numbers furthermore the integra will definately outrun the beretta on the high end car driver and road track have the gs r doing to mph and it gets there fast so the beretta can out handle the integra and it can certainly keep up with it in acceleration and the beretta probably has a higher top speed due to the horsepower advantage hp torque for the integra vs for the beretta you always believe those exact numbers why don t you drive a gs r and see for your self while the gs r has a low torqye its high gearing over a rpm make up for the difference still wouldn t call it a torque moster though the biggest advantage would have to be the price the integra costs as tested motor trend the gtz costs as tested the gtz also has standard nicities and airbag and antilock brakes an airbag is not available on the integra and lower models do not have abs considering you save almost dollars for the beretta and the quad is a reliable engine it doesn t make sense to get the integra as a performance coupe which is what people have been trying to make it out to be quad reliable yeah what s your definition of reliable if that s reliable then its safe to say that integra engines in general are near perfect not to mention a hell of alot smoother and quieter balance shafts the acura has the engine wins the reliablity contest hands down you can rev that car all day everyday and you ll never blow a hose or crack the block or anything else i speak from expierence i m not saying the quad is a bad engine but don t highlight reliability when you comparing it to a acura engine and while the integra costs alot more it is a better investment since it will hold its value considerably much better and does a nice job at being a sporty car and practical at the same time note this isn t a flame on the gtz or other gm quad products the berreta is a nice car and puts out respectable performance and a very reasonable price not to mention it has an airbag but to start quoting figures from one source isn t too reliable read other sources and drive both cars while i haven t driven a gtz i have driven gts and grand ams with quad engines so they are similair
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time don t have a list of what s been said before so hopefully not repeating how about horizontally mounted oil filters like on my ford that no matter how hard you try will spill out their half quart on the bottom of the car when you change them joe st lucas stlucas gdwest gd com standard disclaimers apply general dynamics space systems san diego work is something to keep me busy between ultimate frisbee games
rec.autos	re how hard to change springs on f truck in article apr michael apple com ems michael apple com e michael smith writes does it take any peculiar tools to remove the rear springs from a ford f truck o naah just a coupla nice big bumps
rec.autos	re jeep grand vs toyota runner in article pq p p seven up east sun com jfox hooksett east sun com writes any reason you are limited to the two mentioned they aren t really at the same point along the suv spectrum not to mention price range how about the explorer trooper blazer montero and if the budget allows the land cruiser any advice on how to buy a land cruiser my local toyota dealer says they get two a year and if i want one i can just get on the waiting list forget about a test drive or even kicking the tires and if they are that rare i doubt there is much of a parts inventory on hand jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet inc
rec.autos	re mgbs and the real world in article apr mks com mike mks com mike brookbank writes my sister has an mgb she has one from the last year they were produced its in very good shape i ve been bugging her for years last year produced about selling it i ve said over and over that she should sell it before the car is worthless while she maintains that the car may actually be increasing in value as a result of its limited availability which one of us is right are there mgb affectionados out there who are still willing to pay k to k for an old mg are there a lot out in the market yes there are still alot of mgbs out there the earlier cars pre are usually more desirable due to certain things that went with having chrome bumpers ride height generally more power the older cars are appreciating slowly the newer ones seem to be at a stable level at the moment to k would require extremely good condition and low miles if the car is in good shape and regular maintenance is kept up on it the car should last for a long time there are still plenty of parts sources ouththere the mgb is a great fun little car if she is keeping it solely in the hopes that it is going to appreciate tell her to sell it it is not worth waiting the time it would take to appreciate to a real profitable level rick guynn mg driver soontobe mga mkii rcg zeus tamu edu rebuild complete to be finished texas a m university keeper of the eternal octagon mgb roadster a k a the marque symbol that i ll have it registered soon refuses to die honest
rec.autos	re advice on bmws and winter driving this past winter i drove from nyc to killington vt or times in my i convertible talk about poor reputation in the snow with an excellent set of snow tires i put noika nr s on in dec and have been sure footed in some pretty severe weather conditions ever since i ve plowed through inch snow covered roads effortlessly while other cars have been paralyzed front wheel drive included concentrate more on where the rubber meets the road rather than driveability of cars in snowy conditions drive carefully buy good snow tires and most cars will perform adequately in less than ideal conditions an aside i can t praise noika nr snows enough absolutely the best snow tires i have ever driven on if you live in the snow belt do yourself a favor and get a set of these next winter tim timothy j bigham all opinions expressed above are my own lehman brothers inc and should not be construed as those of amex tower world financial center my employer new york n y
rec.autos	re wax residue on black molding sayeth joseph d mazza mazz andrew cmu edu i waxed my car a few months ago with a liquid wax and now have whiteish smears where i inadvertantly got some wax on the black plastic molding i ve tried repeatedly to remove the smears with no luck i m on the verge of replacing the molding altogether it s a nice car armor all removes raindance wax on my mazda protege s black plastic bumpers your mileage may vary given this observation one would be well advised to take care not to get any of this or probably similar protectants such as son of a gun on one s paint i know that sometimes my jaw clicks when i eat void where prohibited have you seen this boy lust never sleeps i say hurl honey i m home silver bokonon uucp uunet becker xrtll bokonon silver
rec.autos	re who was or what is miata as used in the mazda miata sayeth sjwyrick lbl gov steve wyrick anybody keeping track of how many of these there are so far i have miata tredia previa sentra maxima altima camry and justy not to mention lexus acura and infiniti you re apparently including names that are or appear to be derivatives of real words in english or some other language e g acura infiniti maxima altima in which case you missed ones such as integra supra allante capri and calibra in canada add serenia and precidia if you count misspellings add protege and in canada vigor how about the forthcoming mondeo if it is given that name in north america others might include celica corolla paseo and tercel in canada add asu na i know that sometimes my jaw clicks when i eat void where prohibited have you seen this boy lust never sleeps i say hurl honey i m home silver bokonon uucp uunet becker xrtll bokonon silver
rec.autos	re jeep grand vs toyota runner in article igw world std com edwards world std com jonathan edwards writes i am considering buying one of these two vehicles new i want a fun to drive family vehicle that can go through anything the jeep is very popular and has the features all wheel drive wheel anti lock roomy passenger cabin but limited cargo with an internal spare the toyota is an aging design with only part time wheel and only rear anti lock and no anti lock in wd it also has a very inconvenient rear gate not to mention awkward ingress to the passenger cabin any reason you are limited to the two mentioned they aren t really at the same point along the suv spectrum not to mention price range how about the explorer trooper blazer montero and if the budget allows the land cruiser bear in mind that of all suv s purchased never venture off road carefully weigh the trade off between comfort and off road performance when choosing one and realistically decide whether you ll actually make enough use of the off road ability to sacrifice some of the on road comfort john john
rec.autos	re geico mechanical breakdown insurance in article c pbh noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert j wade writes in article apr lds loral com mcculloc sps lds loral com thad mcculloch writes has anyone had any experience with geico s extended warranty plan it seems to be slightly less expensive than the normal dealer sponsored policy and once again never buy extended warranties they are a complete and total ripoff period you are better off taking your money and putting it in a bank and using that money for repairs many extended warranties never pay or have co payments etc how many people will actually put that money in the bank and keep it there for the sole use of a automotive repair maybe for people who have a hard time saving money or don t want the hassle of worrying about paying for everything the extended warranty is worth it for some people it is worth it others not and for some the peace of mind knowing you won t have too many unexpected expenses is enough if you drive a lot your basic warranty can be up in a little longer than a year how many people can make the car payments as well as large repairs it may work for some people andrew andrew bernstein motorola inc there s no such thing as sanity e algonquin road and that s the sanest fact schaumburg il dire straits bernstei next corp mot com next mail ok
rec.autos	mgbs and the real world my sister has an mgb she has one from the last year they were produced its in very good shape i ve been bugging her for years about selling it i ve said over and over that she should sell it before the car is worthless while she maintains that the car may actually be increasing in value as a result of its limited availability which one of us is right are there mgb affectionados out there who are still willing to pay k to k for an old mg are there a lot out in the market mike brookbank mks king st north mike mks com director interopen sales mkt waterloo ontario mortice kern systems inc mks canada n j w fax
rec.autos	male female mystery re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen a rund writes apparently you re not a woman my husband hates the auto door locks features but forgets that besides families with children a woman feels safer in a car that locks easily in addition to watching around checking out if anyone s near me when i get to my car never park in a secluded spot etc have my keys ready to open the door so i m not fumbling in my purse looking for them this has me thinking is there a biological reason why women can t put their keys in their pants pockets like men do i have two pockets on the back of each of my pants i put my keys in one and wallent in another many of the pockets even have a botton on them so i can close them securely everything is that much simpler for me why can t women do the same is is biological ie not enough room for a bigger bottom plus keys and a wallet or is it the way they are raised by the parents
rec.autos	convertibles i was wondering if someone could point me to somewhere i could find a list and hopefully comparison of all the convertibles that are out these days seems like they are making a big comeback but i m not sure where to look
rec.autos	toyota wagons has anybody noticed that toyota has an uncanny knack for designing horrible ugly station wagons tercels corollas camrys have their designers no aesthetic sense at all dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time cup holders driving is an importantant enough undertaking cellular phones and mobile fax machines see above vanity mirrors on the driver s side ashtrays smokers seem to think it s just fine to use the road fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs any gold trim dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	ford probe gt engine problems one of the local dealers has a used k miles probe gt on the lot with a photocopy of a document taped to the window saying the dealership bought the car back from the previous owner because of engine noises but that the ford district rep had ok ed the car saying those noises were normal i thought it was worth looking into the car seems otherwise clean and mentioned this to a co worker who proceeded to tell me a horror story about her son s probe gt which had several problems ending with engine noises which she said was something with the heads that ford acknowledged the noise said they were working on it but didn t have a cure as of yet her son traded the car in and i checked not the same car so i have some evidence of a reoccuring problem with the v in the probe gt s and by extension with the madza and mx anything to this i d love to consider buying the gt i m turning time for my scheduled mid life crisis but i d hate to find out i just became the proud owner of a lemon
rec.autos	re integra gsr really about other cars it s great that all these other cars can out handle out corner and out accelerate an integra but you ve got to ask yourself one question do all these other cars have a moonroof with a sliding sunshade no wimpy pop up sunroofs or power sliding roofs that are opaque a moonroof that can be opened to the air closed to let just light in or shaded so that nothing comes in you ve just got to know what s important doug integra gs
rec.autos	ford explorer wd do i need performance axle we re considering getting a ford explorer xlt with wd and we have the following questions all we would do is go skiing no off roading with wd do we need the performance axle limited slip axle its purpose is to allow the tires to act independently when the tires are on different terrain do we need the all terrain tires p x or will the all season p x be good enough for us at lake tahoe thanks tom tom shou silicon graphics shou asd sgi com n shoreline blvd ms u fax mountain view ca
rec.autos	re lo jack according to a lojack representative i saw recently lojack must be installed by an authorized lojack dealer and is placed in one of roughly spots in the car thanks steve m att com mantic srmal sure aviad
rec.autos	re how hard to change springs on f truck bottom line i did it and it worked some tips and techniques are included here in article c zzpn ax constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr michael apple com ems michael apple com e michael smith writes does it take any peculiar tools to remove the rear springs from a ford f truck this is a x with leaf springs front and rear so with a big socket and an air wrench and a floor jack and a hydrolic bottle jack can i do this at home i found that i needed some smaller sockets to undo the shocks and a can of wd helped the sockets needed were metric exact fit but i was able to use some sae sockets and are rather close to and mm it can be fun having a canadian ford i m pictureing this undo u bolts put a bottle jack on the axle and raise the bed frame to take stress off of the leaf spring undo the end bolts bushings drop the spring turn the bottom leaf re connect the spring bolts sounds about right didn t have to undo the end bolts bushings just the u bolts on each side and the shock absorber jacking up the frame some more had to put the spare tire on the garage floor and put a wooden platform on top of that to get the floor jack high enough to raise the frame i t one talll truck lifted the spring free of the axel taking out the block gave me enough room to undo the pin holding the spring pack together the spring pack was held together with a nut on top and a round head on the other end no wrench head vice grips worked fine i soaked the nut with wd and it came right off flipped the bottom spring and then is this a nightmare waiting to happen or an easy though physically demanding thing to do well it s easier than doing a decent trigger job on a a ok well maybe it s not that easy but it s not terribly difficult i donno i m a little more sore today than after working on a a a foot pipe cheater was a real help torque spec for the u bolt nuts is to ft lbs a a doesn t have that kind of torque spec it was a challenge to get the pack bolt back in the spring pack squeeze pack with two hands hold bolt with third put nut on with fourth while picking up wrench and vice grips with fifth and sixth hands i used some string to tie the pack together while holding the pin in for alignment then i could let go to get the nut wrench vice grips getting the pin back lined up with the lift block was a challenge too until i discovered that the axel had tilted and or rolled forward one the drivers side a bottle jack under the front of the differential tilted it back in line enough for the pin head to drop into the right hole on the passenger side i had to wrestle the wheel into rolling forward about inch to get things to line up spent more than an hour working on getting the pin head into the hole in the lift block with levers and ropes and impliments of distruction before i took a break and thought about why it wasn t lined up anymore since it had been lined up before and i didn t move it something else must have hmmm axle no longer constrained not to move hmmm move it back hmmm after that it was all much easier to close up btw the ride is now softer but not quite as soft as i was hoping for at least it now sits level e michael smith ems apple com whatever you can do or dream you can begin it boldness has genius power and magic in it goethe i am not responsible nor is anyone else everything is disclaimed
rec.autos	re are bmw s worth the price sure sounds like they got a ringer the is i drove was definitely faster than that if you want to quote numbers my aw autofile shows in mile in it quotes car and driver s figures of and oh btw these numbers are for the i car and driver rated the is at at after k miles last time i checked automobile magazine rated new is mile gee aint quotiin funner than the dickens sounds like we need a race i ll let you have the newer version can someone out there lend me a is for a day i wont hurt it i promise i don t know how the addition of variable valve timing for affects it but don t take my word for it go drive it actually i will take your word on it i refuse to test it new is because i love bmw s and would probably want to buy it problem is my income just doesn t support that
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all tim in article ppg b fvq armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes in article phoi s armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes stuff deleted the silly thing about this whole argument is that most of the trunk releases i m tempted to say all but there s bound to be a counterexample only operate if the car is on acc or running thus you can t easily pop the trunk without starting the car most cars the only cars i ve ever seen with this feature have been gm cars my mazda honda and coming soon probe all have cable operated releases my camaro had an electric hatch release that was thankfully independent of the key in the ignition the exception to the rule mentioned in my first sentence i should probably have said glovebox trunk releases i haven t encountered any glovebox releases that are cable operated numerous gm and several ford mercury cars that i ve encountered have electrical releases in the glovebox and all of the ones i ve seen needed the ignition on to some degree to operate your camaro example is noted but since it s a hardtop it s not a big deal i ve never run into a convertible with a cable operated trunk release i d agree that in such an environment a cable or always active electrical release would be rather stupid jim frost jimf centerline com my honda has a cable release that can be locked out with the ignition key the valet key can be left with someone and will not unlock the trunk or enable the cable release i remember my mothers corvette that had an electronic hatch release located on the drivers door which was always active the fact that the car had no real trunk makes the security measure of beign able to dis able the hatch release unnecessary
rec.autos	re did us drive on the left left hand steering wheel placement was not standard until the s in the us driving on the right has been standard since standards came into being interestingly chrysler has just begun building right hand drive cars again for export to japan
rec.autos	re did us drive on the left desoto s first year of manufacture was so this may indeed have been an export special as left hand controls were standard here by then
rec.autos	re infiniti g in article cup portal com carl f hoffman cup portal com writes there is a special deal where i can get an infinity g fully loaded at dealer cost i have check this out and the numbers match up they are doing this because they are releasing and update mid version includes dual air bags and want to get rid of their old s is this really the dealer s cost did you get the dealer s cost by looking at the invoice there may be factory to dealer incentives i d check this out since i have trouble believing that a dealer would sell a car to me at his cost dealer invoice is not necessarily the dealer cost teddy
rec.autos	re lh car order delay in article apr skcla monsanto com mas skcla monsanto com writes i read an article in the chicago tribune stating that chrysler is having problems addressing the demand for the l engine for it s lh cars can anyone post how long they are waiting for an ordered car or how long they have been told they ll have to wait thanks john mas e mail address mas skcla monsanto com i ordered an intrepid es on jan th and haven t seen it yet i called a couple of weeks ago and was told more weeks it s probably time to call again charles johnson intel corporation supercomputer systems division ms co nw greenbrier pkwy beaverton or phone email cfj ssd intel com
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time well you young fellers won t remember but we used to have side vent front windows until some damn bean counter scrapped them these were separate triangular windows at the leading edge of the front doors that pivoted outward at the rear edge worked like a charm yeah i loved the vent windows on my escort hell the only thing i liked about the car one of the things i d like to see brought back does anyone know if they re an option on the new escorts trh
rec.autos	inflation in car prices anyone have figures or pointers to references about how fast much car prices have gone up in the last decade thanks
rec.autos	just testing hello testing
rec.autos	svx oil change my friend brought a subaru svx recently i had drove it for couples times and i think its a great car esp on snow however when she took it to a local subaru dealer for a oil change the bill came out to be about dollars the dealer told us it is because to change the oil filter on a svx it is necessary to disassemble a metal cover under the engine and that took an hour of labour at first we think we are being ripped off so she phone to a dealer in toronto but found out the they are charging roughly the same price so is there any svx owner out there that has the same problem and if the oil change story is true then the engineer of subaru looks pretty stubid to me by the way the car looks great swd wan
rec.autos	saab mailing list could someone out there please tell me how i could get onto the saab mailing list specifically i need the address and instructions on what to do thanks in advance pete
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time ak yfn ysu edu john r daker writes cup holders driving is an importantant enough undertaking this is a good idea so you can carry your non alcoholic drinks without spilling or having someone hold on to them cellular phones and mobile fax machines see above fax machines yes cellular phones why not get a hands free model fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs seemingly unique to american luxury cars the big three haven t yet realized that the s are over any gold trim i agree just another display of yuppie excess jon dunn
rec.autos	need info on mazda i test drove a mazda lx this past weekend and liked it the dealer offered it for k is this a good price any comments on in general please use email thanks peter att hotsoup peng
rec.autos	re integra gsr in article apr ns cc lehigh edu daz ns cc lehigh edu demosthenis a zeppos writes in article mwf b w w njcc wisdom bubble org jonc njcc wisdom bubble org j on cochran writes i d like to add the beretta gtz as a car which will kick gs r butt anyday and it s a lot cheaper to boot comparing the gtz and gsr is apples to oranges somewhat like a mustang and a crx both have very different ways of doing things and ought to appeal to different buyers i e i don t think an acura owner would be seen dead in a chevy dealership or vice versa stuff deleted are all weather xgtv not to mention that the integra rides alot better than no integra i have seen comes with all season tires the gtz does come with much bigger wheels along with the integra and the car does that with small inch tires that your acceleartion times also vary magazine to magazine road track and car driver have the gs r at to for road and track the c d figures are almost certainly bogus and based on a hot prototype supplied by acura the mt figures are more plausible also quarter mile times vary from to sounds reasonable probably faster than regular integras so the beretta can out handle the integra and it can certainly keep up with it in acceleration and the beretta probably has a higher top speed due to the horsepower advantage hp torque for the integra vs for the beretta you always believe those exact numbers why don t you drive a gs r and see for your self while the gs r has a low torqye its high gearing over a the gsr gearing is horrible for day to day driving it needs a speed box more than any other modern car essentially th in a regualr integra equals th in the gsr and the regular integras are very buzzy at speed rpm make up for the difference still wouldn t call it a torque moster though considering you save almost dollars for the beretta and the quad is a reliable engine it doesn t make sense to get the integra as a the only person i knew with a gtz had it bought back by gm as a lemon it was a piecve of junk but very quick for fwd quad reliable yeah what s your definition of reliable if that s reliable then its safe to say that integra engines in general are near perfect the only gsr owner i know had the engine throw a rod with less than k miles a rare screw up by honda both the gtz and gsr are flawed cars the performance enthusiasts would take the gtz and the cr purchase would be the gsr craig
rec.autos	re mgbs and the real world in article apr mks com mike mks com mike brookbank writes my sister has an mgb she has one from the last year they were produced its in very good shape i ve been bugging her for years about selling it i ve said over and over that she should sell it before the car is worthless while she maintains that the car may actually be increasing in value as a result of its limited availability grass roots motorsport has a long article about mg b s this month as far as collectivity speculation is concerned they think it is a waste of time especially the later rubber bumpered models are the least desirable a original model the most the reasons for its low value are easy availability and the fact that it just was not a very good car craig which one of us is right are there mgb affectionados out there who are still willing to pay k to k for an old mg are there a lot out in the market mike brookbank mks king st north mike mks com director interopen sales mkt waterloo ontario mortice kern systems inc mks canada n j w fax
rec.autos	vw passat again kojo valet phx mcd mot com kojo yeboah writes ky to all those who have passats do you recommend using super unleaded or just ky regular unleaded gasoline i have been using regular unleaded a friend of mine has ky a jetta and has always used super unleaded and thinks i should be using the same ky however i believe the advantages of super unleaded for cars and under ky has been overplayed by guess who the companies who sell them because that is ky where they make the most profit a ralph nader report and other consumer advocates ky have in the past spoken against those oil companies your passat vr is designed to run on premium gasoline however the engine electronics will retard the timing so that no harm wil be done to the engine with lower octane fuel you will likely however get somewhat more power and fuel mileage especially in hot weather out of this particular engine if you do run it on premium tom neumann deluxe i sell volkswagens canada remote systems toronto ontario
rec.autos	re toyota wagons in article apr pmafire inel gov russ pmafire inel gov russ brown writes in article pq bl rj news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu john r daker writes has anybody noticed that toyota has an uncanny knack for designing horrible ugly station wagons tercels corollas camrys have their designers no aesthetic sense at all the new camry wagon may just be even uglier than my tercel toyota has cornered the market on ugly station wagons after seeing the new camry sedan i had thought toyota would finally turn out something nice looking the new camry station wagon bears a strong resemblance to a hearse and a weird looking one at that teddy
rec.autos	re photo radar was re rec autos frequently asked questions photo radar and mailed tickets make no sense at all speeding is a moving violation committed by the operator not the owner the owner may be a rental agency a dealer a private party or a government agency as long as the owner has no reason to expect the operator will be driving illegally or unsafely the owner cannot be held responsible for what the operator does the car may even have been driven without the owner s knowledge or consent i can t believe a mailed ticket where the driver is not identified would stand up in court this is obviously a lazy cynical boneheaded fascist way to extort revenue and has nothing to do with public safety bk what do photo radar units look like also what major u s cities use it jon dunn
rec.autos	re most bang for between and your best bet is the dodge intrepid with the sohc valve six it gets hp and has a hell of a lot of room great styling and abs with four wheel disk breaks the lh cars won automobile magazines automobile of the year award and are quiet impressive
rec.autos	alaska car show peninsula cruisers third annual autofaire what car show for any and all types of vehicles including pedal cars where kenai mall kenai alaska when may who peninsula cruisers car club kenai ak why proceeds of this event to benefit the cooper landing ambulance corps general this car show is open to all types of cars trucks motorcycles factory and modified mild to wild antique special interests race drag mudders hi po or just plain ugly this is a fun event intended for the occassional gear head to the most serious gear slammer we would like to have as many entrants as possible but please contact us for space availability first come first serve p s all out of town entrants can stay right next door at the kenai merrit inn for a special rate of a night single or double occupancy call the merit if you d like any further information you can contact me at the addresses below mel mckay cant drive rebelheart a gorgeous supercoupe remember saves lives saves twice as many rebelheart too old for some things define bitnet fsmlm alaska too young to know define e mail fsmlm acad alaska edu which things
rec.autos	re was re safety from how far can you see a car in article c rvkm plato ds boeing com simnet plato ds boeing com mark r poulson writes ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes you will be surprised at the number of people who forget their glasses while driving and then there are the people who just plain don t get their eyes checked once a year as someone who has lousy vision i can see objects at a distance without my glasses however they are quite fuzzy and i may not be able to make out the details but i can certainly tell that something is there i won t argue too much about anything i am probably one of those that think that we can t have enough safety on the roads i would gladly sacrifice distractions as you call it than someone having trouble seeing danger earlier one saved life justifies more than my lifetime of distractions for me and then there is dawn and dusk when your eyes have not yet adjusted to the poor light and there are those who drive black grey cars and then there is the case where you are driving down a two way one lane road and someone is overtaking cars and coming the opposite direction doesn t see you because your lights are not on or vice versa at mph that is quite a small reaction time but of course we are too macho to think we are invincible and can react faster than that only the poor sod who you didn t see might not have a normal life ever i worked out the reaction time in a previous post and its plenty even for an year old grandma as long as speeds are in the mph range or less if you or some other driver is going way faster than that then be careful as always you are responsible for your driving actions if you pull out to pass and crash into someone for whatever reason its your fault if you can t problem is that i may just kill the guy i agree that i would be at fault and i will have my license revoked why i might even go to the gas chamber but the fact still remains that the guy is dead someone died because i was too stingy to put on my lights see a damn thing then you shouldn t be driving lights fail fallen trees or rocks don t have lights etc i maintain that headlight strength the ratio of the probability of fallen trees rocks on the roads to oncoming traffic is too low to even be considered the difference is also working on what we know could happen to what might happen running lights are not necessary for motorists who drive around mph it may be a good idea to force the running or headlights on when you turn your windshield wipers on but only because some people are too stupid to do so if you crash into one of those idiots you have to fight it out in court to show his neglegence if you can even prove it just out of curiosity how much gas milage do you loose when you put your lights on and how much do you reduce the life of your head lamps and what is the cost of your headlamps anyway mileage is certainly reduced but by a very very small amount probably about watts for head and running lights this is an extra horsepower that must be made by the engine it may be that this will cost you around two gallons a year but times million cars that s a lot of gas compared to the number of gallons of gas consumed by those million cars it is miniscule whatever tis a pity i have to share the same roads with a person not concerned with safety s ssave ole cdac com lamp life is measured in hours so if you normally drive in half daylight and half night your lamps will have to be replaced twice as often headlamps only cost about us for most halogen lamps the cost to the individual is trivial and to me is not the issue what i don t like is the distractions all these cars with headlights cause i don t need to constantly see the headlights of the vehicle behind me i don t need to see the headlights of every gosh darn car for a mile down the road these lit up cars make non illuminated things less visible like pedistrians and bikes hopefully we re not going to mandate drl s for people and bikes too a stream of taillights is tolerable as are the orange front running lights this is certainly sufficient for other people to see you if they look and doesn t distract me nearly as much as full power headlights mark
rec.autos	quick question how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and i want to access its pins i see only one press button and the rest is snug fit s ssave ole cdac com
rec.autos	clothing was re male female mystery re dumbest automotive in article pima inn gap caltech edu wen king cs caltech edu wen king su writes this has me thinking is there a biological reason why women can t put their keys in their pants pockets like men do i have two pockets on the back of each of my pants i put my keys in one and wallent in another many of the pockets even have a botton on them so i can close them securely everything is that much simpler for me why can t women do the same is is biological ie not enough room for a bigger bottom plus keys and a wallet or is it the way they are raised by the parents oh pulleeze it s not biology at all it s clothing design women s clothing is generally designed to be as non functional as possible it s only been in the last five years or so that you could buy women s pants with pockets deep enough to carry anything in previously deep pockets were virtually unknown in women s clothing skirts generally have better pockets now too dresses espcially fancy dresses are still pretty hopeless i often hand my driver s license over to my husband if we re dressed up to go out somewhere so i don t have to be encumbered by a purse if women consistently bought functional clothing and boycotted the manufacturers who refuse to make functional women s clothing i think manufacturers would tend to bow to market pressures there s an interesting chapter in susan faludi s backlash that described what happened the last time clothing manufacturers ignored the need for functional women s clothing the manufactuing industry lost millions from a woman who would rather buy men s clothing with decent pockets and long legs and high waists than women s clothing without lmann jjmhome uucp internet laurie mann genie claiming that sex education leads to irresponsible sex is like claiming that driver education leads to car accidents
rec.autos	re looking to buy dodge stealth have questions in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article apr usho hou chevron com hhtra usho hou chevron com t m haddock writes i found a mopar spec sheet this weekend model wgt hp stealth stealth es stealth rt stealth rt tt okay i ll take their word for it i am giving every chance to retract figures widely known the mustang is rated at is you have a hp advantage over a mustang seems that the mustang is rated at hp only because ford changed its testing procedures under the older procedures it still rates closer to hp that means that the mustang has hp more and you still haven t posted any weight figures for the mustang big threat you are ko d by a civic acording to c d yeah sure in your wet dreams and that s probably where you got that second for the stealth i ll check c d s issue strange that you claim to have that go ahead and check asshole you ll realize what an idiot you are for not checking data beforeposting car drive may stealth es hp automatic for posts now you ve been harping on this may issue of car driver without posting any numbers why not because they prove me right and you ain t got the guts to admit it yeah thought so the sentra se r really is alot quicker than the hp fwd sports car you are close to the k sentra e go look up the numbers in c d and report please no i m going to play your game no way sentra s are slow i took a test drive and it took to go why even the hyundai excel blows it doors off any yr old knows that i race and i ll kick your butt blah blah blah let s see yep that sounds just like you oh man i just got it beavis butthead that s you who would buy a fwd automatic that costs k that is capable of only a and would plainly be dusted by a se r i dunno why did you but why would someone pick the dodge stealth rt over the nissan sentra all it takes is one look travis
rec.autos	re w w or w in article foo brad thone c bt wuvmd writes well there is a difference i don t happen to have my sae manual handy but oil viscosity in general decreases with temperature the sae numbers are based on a typical curve that oils used to all have running from say the viscosity of a room temperature weight at c down to say that of a room temperature weight at c for a typical weight oil oils that are designed for operation in normal temperatures just have a weight specification oils that are designed for operation in exceedingly cold temperatures have a w tacked on the end so in winter in a cold place you d stick w in your car in the winter and in it in the summer to approximate the appropriate viscosity throughout the year modern multi viscosity oils change viscosity much less with temperature as a result their viscosity graphs cross over several curves a multi vis specification pegs the curve at two temperatures a normal operating temperature and a cold one though i can t remember the numbers in any event the weights do indicate a significant difference remember that your engine is temperature regulated by the thermostat and radiator or air fins most of the time unless you overheat it or something any weight of oil is better than no oil or than very old carbonized oil thin oil won t in general lubricate as well at temperature thicker oil will like a w will lubricate better at temperature but not as well during startup when most engine wear occurs if you re planning on making long drives the w is probably fine esp in the summer in your w car but if you re making short drives stick to the w don t drink soap dilute dilute ok
rec.autos	re looking to buy dodge stealth have questions in article apr usho b hou chevron com hhtra usho b hou chevron com t m haddock writes in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article apr usho hou chevron com hhtra usho hou chevron com t m haddock writes i found a mopar spec sheet this weekend model wgt hp stealth stealth es stealth rt stealth rt tt okay i ll take their word for it these arethe numbers i have been stating in the past messages it really angers me that you insisted you were right and that you had no clue what your own car weighed why didn t you check when i first told you that your figures were implausible i am giving every chance to retract figures widely known the mustang is rated at is you have a hp advantage over a mustang seems that the mustang is rated at hp only because ford changed its testing procedures under the older procedures it still rates closer to hp that means that the mustang has hp more i d like to hear a better explanatin of how you come to that conclusion from the above data big threat you are ko d by a civic acording to c d yeah sure in your wet dreams and that s probably where you got no sorry your wrong again you quoted the del sol as doing in according to c d interestingly the stealth es which is faster than your rt does the samerun in seconds according to c d kind of embarassing isn t it why didn t you check the figures before posting it only makes you look stupid when you are caught out twice with your own figures that second for the stealth i ll check c d s issue strange that you claim to have that you really should have checked go ahead and check asshole you ll realize what an idiot you are for not checking data beforeposting car drive may stealth es hp automatic for posts now you ve been harping on this may issue of car driver without posting any numbers why not because they prove me right and you ain t got the guts to admit it yeah thought so if you insist i gave you every chance to retract but dodge stealth es auto does an wonder why you couldn t find it do you realize that a k sentra c d will run a that a sentra se r or saturn will run in the s don t you think it is kind of strange that your hp sports car is so easily beaten a mustang which weights about the same according to your numbers has less power and is much quicker care to explain don t be abusive just try and come up with a rational explanation of where those hp went to its a mystery to me the sentra se r really is alot quicker than the hp fwd sports car you are close to the k sentra e go look up the numbers in c d and report please no i m going to play your game no way sentra s are slow i took a test drive and it took to go why even the hyundai excel blows it doors i guess you drove a speed and couldn t shift craig
rec.autos	storing a car long term i bought a car with a defunct engine to use for parts for my old but still running version of the same car the car i bought has good tires is there anything in particular that i should do to store the defunct car long term i d hate to have parts of it go bad someone has told me it s bad for the tires to not move the car once in a while is this true do i need some props to take the weight of the tires best to reply by mail i am getting spotty news delivery kris a kugel hico kak kak hico westmark com
rec.autos	re did us drive on the left the reason i ask is because i went to a classic car meet here in the uk and saw a very nice old de soto s vintage i d guess with wooden artillery type wheels etc but it was right hand drive i can t believe that desoto produced rhd cars just for the uk well sweden and australia and lord knows wherever else used to drive on the wrong side of the road so the export market might have been larger then than just the uk i m guessing but i believe in the twenties we probably drove mostly down cattle trails and in wagon ruts i am fairly sure that placement of the steering wheel was pretty much arbitrary to the company at that time by the s there was a very active good roads movement which had its origins actually in the s during the bicycle craze picked up steam in the teens witness the linclon highway association or so and the us highway support act real name something different in that first pledged federal aid to states and counties to build decent roads also the experience of widespread use of trucks for domestic transport during ww convinced the government that good raods were crucial to our national defense anyway by the s there were plenty of good roads at least around urban areas and they were rapidly expanding into the countryside this was the era after all of the first auto touring fad the motel the auto camp ground etc two good books on the subject spring to mind warren belasco america on the road title may not be exact author is and another called the devil wagon in god s country author i forget also any of john flink s or john bell rae s auto histories as to placement of the steering wheel being arbitrary by the early teens there were virtually no american cars that did not have the wheel on the left in the early days cars had the wheel on the left on the right and even in the middle as well as sometimes having a tiller instead of a wheel this was standardized fairly early on though i don t know why dan dh q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history world history strides on from catastrophe to catastrophe whether we can comprehend and prove it or not oswald spengler
rec.autos	any subaru liberty owners out there i ve had my subaru liberty wd station wagon for about months now saying i m happy with it would be an understatement just great well built handles beautifully plenty of power i ve only had if off tar once did a trip over the mountains on a narrow windy dirt road often very dodgey in parts the subaru did it with ease i havent had so much fun driving a car for years any other owners out there steve green hey rocky watch me pull a rabbit outa my hat comms group that trick never works its branch nothin up my sleeve presto csiro australia no doubt about it i gotta get another hat
rec.autos	re difference between lexus series from article apr ucsu colorado edu by lorenzo rintintin colorado edu eric lorenzo what is the difference between the ls es and gs seems lexus can t stop popping out new models let me put it like this the only similarity between the three models is the or liter engine displacement actually the sc the coupe and the gs the funky looking new sedan share the same liter inline six and the es popular small sedan uses v shared with the camry the sc is a luxury sports coupe the gs is the new luxury sedan and the es is the base executive sedan all three look completely different aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should i care i d rather watch drying paint
rec.autos	re most bang for between and rmt r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen writes your best bet is the dodge intrepid with the sohc valve six it gets hp and has a hell of a lot of room great styling and abs with four wheel disk breaks the lh cars won automobile magazines automobile of the year award and are quiet impressive is the v lh under k though chintan amin the university of illinois urbana champaign mail llama uiuc edu because he was human because he had goodness because he was moral they called him insane peart cinderella man
rec.autos	re saturn s pricing policy cs cs brown edu hok chung tsang writes in article c vir l r shuksan ds boeing com fredd shuksan fred dickey writes carolinafan uiuc cka uxa cso uiuc edu wrote the biggest problem some people seem to be having is that saturn dealers make k on a car i think most will agree with me that the car is comparably priced with its competitors that is they aren t overpriced compared to most cars in their class i don t understand the point of arguing over whether the dealer makes the k or not i have never understood what the big deal over dealer profits is either the only thing that i can figure out is that people believe that if they minimize the dealer profit they will minimize their total out of pocket expenses for the car while this may be true in some cases i do not believe that it is generally true i bought a saturn sl in january of at that time based on studying car prices i decided that there was no comparable car that was priced as cheaply as the saturn sure maybe i could have talked the price for some other car to the saturn price but my out of pocket expenses wouldn t have been any different what s important to me is how much money i have left after i buy the car reducing dealer profit is not the same thing as saving money show me how reducing dealer profit saves me money and i ll believe that it s important my experience has been that reducing dealer profit does not necessarily save me money fred say you bought your saturn at k with a dealer profit of k if the dealer profit is then you would only be paying k for the same car so isn t that saving money yes but the point is that prices are competetive saturn may well be selling a car intended on giving the dealer a profit but since a comperable honda with profit is more expensive it may be well worth it to buy the saturn moreover if saturn really does reduce the dealer profit margin by then their cars will be even better deals say if the price of a saturn was already below market average for the class of cars then after they reduce the dealer profit it would be below market average it will attract even more people to buy saturns because it would save them money force the competitors to lower their prices to survive now not only will saturn owners benefit from a lower dealer profit even the buyers for other cars will pay less not necessarily it seems to me that saturn salesdroids who don t make a commision whereas their counterparts at other dealerships generally do make more per hour or whatever this means that saturn doesn t give up the profit to their employees through commision which is taken out of per car profits they just pass it along to less pressureing salesmen women isn t that saving money maybe maybe not depends on accounting practices i d rather pay more for dealer service that doesn t cut corners to contain costs doug cka carolina blue honda civic dx chintan amin the university of illinois urbana champaign mail llama uiuc edu because he was human because he had goodness because he was moral they called him insane peart cinderella man
rec.autos	thinking about buying intrepid good or bad idea i m thinking of buying a new dodge intrepid has anyone had any experiences that they d like to share thanks bobc
rec.autos	re quick question in article foo ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and i want to access its pins why are you posting this tripe to rec autos vw don t drink soap dilute dilute ok
rec.autos	re spark plug question in article mgolden cwis mgolden cwis unomaha edu brian golden writes the nice thing about real platinum plugs is that you don t have to change them very often at all i think like miles they might cost each but they would save for themselves in the long run my t bird sc s manual says to replace the platinum plugs every mi wal mart has autolite platinum plugs for each are these real platinum plugs i had bosch platinums in my fiesta and my dad had em in his bronco note the keyword had they didn t last very long much less than mi before they had to be replaced i agree that they weren t the greatest james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re did us drive on the left in article yfkbjqs uh e tfo andrew cmu edu daniel u holbrook dh q andrew cmu edu writes stuff about rhd desoto s deleted well sweden and australia and lord knows wherever else used to drive on australians still do drive on the wrong side of the road i believe sweden changed in the way i heard it was that they swapped all the traffic signs around one sunday the wrong side of the road so the export market might have been larger then than just the uk craig
rec.autos	re quick question newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject re quick question summary expires sender reply to ct cunixa cc columbia edu constantino tobio followup to distribution organization columbia university keywords removing panels in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and i want to access its pins i see only one press button and the rest is snug fit s ssave ole cdac com quick question why are you posting this to a vw newsgroup newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject re quick question summary distribution world organization columbia university keywords newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject re quick question summary expires references apr ole cdac com sender reply to ct cunixa cc columbia edu constantino tobio followup to distribution organization columbia university keywords removing panels in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and i want to access its pins i see only one press button and the rest is snug fit s ssave ole cdac com quick question why are you posting this to a vw newsgroup constantino tobio jr ct columbia edu tremble you weaklings cower in fear i am your ruler land sea and air immense in my girth erect i stand tall i m a nuclear murderer i am polaris megadeth rust in peace
rec.autos	re saturn puzzled by its pricing in article apr cbfsb cb att com ykhsu cbnewsf cb att com yung kao hsu writes i am the person who started out this subject to me the question really is not about dealer profit but the amount of money for the type of car i ve settled with a new subaru wagon with the similar amount of money a saturn dealer asked for a sw ok i know it s a model but i think i got a better car though i have to adjust my initial idea of why i am getting a new car today during a conversion with a friend i learned he rejected a saturn for a ford tarurs as it only costed him a little bit more than a sl i may be wrong but a loaded tarus beats a saturn sl i agree that a fully loaded sl would come close in price to a lower end ford taurus a fully loaded taurus on the other hand would still be substantially more expensive than even the most glitzy sl a fully loaded sl would run somewhere around while a fully loaded taurus lx would be somewhere around the range a base taurus gl i believe might start around of course there is the taurus sho which can push if you really try but this is a totally different car than your mainstream taurus sedan your statement was not entirely faulty just a little inaccurate i can t see saturn is of better value and that is why i was puzzled by its pricings oh we did not spend much time getting our deals being better informed has its advantages well that s ok at least you re not bitching about dealer profits like some of the other netters are you seem to have rationally picked out the car that is best for you the loyale is an aging design that is about to be replaced by the impreza wagon so you probably got a good deal on one of the last ones then again i may be wrong yung kao hsu mihir shah mps cec wustl edu
rec.autos	integra ls for sale integra ls for sale speed sunroof rear spoiler new tires k miles or best offer call email att hotsoup peng
rec.autos	re integra gsr in article apr ns cc lehigh edu daz ns cc lehigh edu demosthenis a zeppos writes why don t you look again at motor trend s slalom times they are right along with the integra and the car does that with small inch tires that are all weather xgtv not to mention that the integra rides alot better than a beretta my gs came with xgt v s and they are not all weather tires i took out my right front bumper sliding on packed snow not ice before i learned this fact i immediately bought xgt h s which are definately all weather a carrera i walk by everyday has xgt v s on it even the michelin dealer where i bought my new tires said the v s were made out of a different rubber that gets really hard and slick when the weather gets near feezing said he d only try to sell me those tires during the winter if we were in texas and not colorado thanks eric o an inactive lifestyle eric j lorenzo violates our genetic warranty lorenzo rintintin colorado edu not to excercise is not also spot ucsu to be fully human keith johnsgard
rec.autos	awd bmw any truth to the rumor of an awd series for i believe this info was published in either popular science or autoweek a couple of months ago also a friend told me that bmw used to make an awd called the ix i d appreciate any info about this car too thanks thanks tim
rec.autos	re saturn performance was re saturn puzzled by its pricing in article fjdcfu iv i kap andrew cmu edu jason m roth jr q andrew cmu edu writes i can t imagine any civic or saturn owners flex n there egos in stop light races it generates as much excitement as two nerds challenging each other in a game of one on one basketball the sl does in about note that this is closer to a than to a paseo or storm pseudo sporty cars that s a ridiculous comparison i know but the point is that saturns and high end civics for that matter accelerate just fine in fact better than most unimproved muscle cars of the s hp is great but tied to tons it just doesn t go that quick saturns on the other hand use hp tied to lbs with some short gearing to move very quickly off the line anyway while your time is consistent with most car magazines and reports i saw the pbs motorweek show clock a speed sl at seconds i m sure that most sl owners will be very lucky to get this speed but seconds is still astonishingly fast for a small door a new civic ex runs about seconds if i m not mistaken most cars in this class are lucky to be in the second range mihir shah
rec.autos	re awd bmw in europe you can buy a ix with computer controlled diffs rather than the horrid viscous coupled ones of the outgoing ix eliot
rec.autos	re did us drive on the left in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes deleted lines well sweden and australia and lord knows wherever else used to drive on australians still do drive on the wrong side of the road i believe sweden changed in the way i heard it was that they swapped all the traffic signs around one sunday as i live in sweden i remember the day perfectly well we changed side or sep i don t remeber the exactly time but it was in the night in the big cities like stockholm gothenburg all trafic was forbidden exept busses and taxis during the whole weekend the day was a sunday and everything was prepared in before before the day we was told to follow the yellow lines on the road and after it was the white one that matters the signs with arrows on was prepared with a left mode label that was torn off that night to reveal the new right mode arrow the year after iceland also changed about cars before the h day h as in hoegertrafik hoeger is swedish and stands for right practically all cars already had their steering wheels on the left side even the imported cars from uk had the wheel on the right side at last we have cars with the wheels on the right side more contries that uses the left side is japan tanzania i think new zeeland how about south africa btw some sais that the left side is the right side because ivanhoe and other knights meet at the left when they fight in tournaments deleted lines kent gabrin celsiustech systems my thinking is not as great as s jaerfaella sweden oliver berendinus bumble will try kega celsiustech se company sold again former name was nobeltech
rec.autos	re what is volvo and all of these cars are driven fairly hard none of them are at the head of a line of cars going mph the first two spend a lot of their operating life with the speedometer pegged and the only reason the doesn t is it has a mph speedo what i want to know is have all you people who hate volvos been traumatized by someone in a turbo wagon blowing you away on the road or what turbo in uk was good for mph useful for blowing away vw beetles though i believe the beetle corners better i can say without any doubt that i have never been blown away by any volvo ever i ve been blocked into a few car parks though by shit head volvo owners who only thought they d be a few minutes this does not happen with the owners of any other makes of car not sure how long the small shit box volvos last too damn long the worst car i ever drove was a hired in power handling and ride it was reminiscent of something from the s without the character the only ceased production a couple of years back i ve only been a passenger in the big volvos but that was enough i ought to go for a test drive because they offer some neat gifts
rec.autos	re anti theft devices in article rphroy ph gmr com rhaar gmr com bob haar writes in article kocrsv delcoelect com jdmooney kocrsv delcoelect com john d mooney writes someone writes btw somebody stole the front grille off my beat up nissan sentra a few weeks ago i couldn t believe it i m just driving around without it now years ago my brother lived in a rough area he left his nova parked on the street in front of his house for a few days one day he went to move it back into the driveway it wouldn t start seems some industrious fool needed a nova gas tank the fool found one under my brothers car the engines in vw beatles are quite easy to remove without entering the car or even opening the engine compartment how would you like to find that your car wouldn t start because the engine was stolen i would probobly feel a hell of a lot poorer a gas tank is about in a junkyard an engine more seriously though my other brother darrell left his vw on the same street someone stole the radiator out of it try finding a vw radiator in a junkyard i dare you jd john d mooney delco electronics general motors jdmooney kocrsv delcoelect com opinions expressed are mine not necessarily de s or gm s
rec.autos	re bullet proof luxury sedans in article pnigoinn in senator bedfellow mit edu chsu mtl mit edu charles h hsu writes i am interested to find out if there is any domestic car manufacturer especially gm and ford which produces bullet proof luxury sedans i understand caddy is working on one double battery super high perf engine more gauges a bit stretched etc lots of communication equipment the works color selection is limited though the problem is that the guy at penn avenue is about to get it pres clinton last time it was a lincoln this time a caddy i am just wondering if this so called bullet proof perhaps reinforced windows special materials for the body engine etc luxury car lincoln and cadillac models is readily available to the public not to my knowledge i know gm does conversion work for things like hot climates i e the chevy caprices sold to the middle east but things like that are always done by third parties not the manufacturer maybe you will need to buy a specific package that has beefed up everything perhaps the police cruiser package on the caprice crown vic and start from there do we have to go through any special dealership to obtain these cars i would really like to hear from anyone who has experience with the bullet proof cars and i wuz drivin along in my armored seville sts and this punk pulls out of nowhere with an rpg rocket propelled grenade but the bulletproof windshield stopped him don t think many people on the net have a need for bulletproof cars check with local armored service companies security bodyguard places they d know best i think your average luxury car dealer will have a coronary if you told them i ll take the blue caprice with options fz fuzzy dice pr power everything and ar armor any information regarding the dealers and after market shops that have bullet proof lincoln s and cadillac s is greatly appreciated you may email me at chsu mtl mit edu or post the message in this newsgroup if you believe other netters might be interested as well btw same information on mercedes benz bmw lexus and infiniti luxury sedans is needed as well if you have it i believe an article on the conversion process appeared in the car press within the last few months spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in a different kind of disclaimer
rec.autos	re top reasons why i love cr not for the humor impaired in article c wjgq a constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes no at six years you are nearing the end of the design life of the vehicle when everything should be breaking at that point the driving habits make more difference than the actual reliability of the vehicle so the data becomes unreliable for drawing conclusions bad driving habits can damage a car in a couple of months not years if that were not the case everyone would be driving fleet rental re solds and while you are considering things factors in stat terms how about city vs highway driving ratios owner vs dealer service extreme weather or environment adherence sp to maintenance schedules whether the car has ever been in an accident number of different drivers of the same car in a family whether the car is garaged warmed up spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in a different kind of disclaimer
rec.autos	re most bang for between and in rec autos cpkjp vm cc latech edu kevin parker writes i d like to get some feedback on a car with most bang for the buck in the to price range i m looking for a car with enough civility to be driven every day or even on long trips but when i hit the gas i want to feel some acceleration handling is important also as are reliability and pretty low maintenance costs a stylish appearance is nice but i don t want a car that is all show and not much go even though many of the imports are fast i don t really want a turbo and i never have cared for the song sung by a four clyinder i d prefer a v or v for the engine if you have any suggestions kevin parker there s only one car that really fits your needs it s spelled liter mustang
rec.autos	re w w or w as an additional data point i have run castrol w exclusively in the following cars rabbit scirocco rabbit bus beetle bus jetta gli i ve never had an oil related problem disclaimer it gets mighty hot down here kenneth finnegan navo navy mil
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time dunnjj ucsu colorado edu dunn jonathan james writes ak yfn ysu edu john r daker writes cup holders driving is an importantant enough undertaking this is a good idea so you can carry your non alcoholic drinks without spilling or having someone hold on to them i agree six hour long stretches behind the wheel really make me thirsty especially for something with caffeine i consider it a failing of my car that it has no cup holder nor anywhere to put a cup holder jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re what is volvo boyle bbsls bnr ian boyle writes turbo in uk was good for mph useful for blowing away vw beetles though i believe the beetle corners better i can say without any doubt that i have never been blown away by any volvo ever i ve been blocked into a few car parks though by shit head volvo owners who only thought they d be a few minutes this does not happen with the owners of any other makes of car not sure how long the small shit box volvos last too damn long the worst car i ever drove was a hired in power handling and ride it was reminiscent of something from the s without the character the only ceased production a couple of years back i ve only been a passenger in the big volvos but that was enough i ought to go for a test drive because they offer some neat gifts oh well i have to admit that the most disgusting feature of volvo s is their marketing it looks like volvo uses something like do you dare to risk your family in any car attitude which is quite annoying in the long run but now volvo has produced a new good car the volvo front drive l valves motor completely new chassis etc even the british magazine car liked it and believe me that is quite much for a volvo and the american magazine road track said that this is not your uncle olof s car and in a positive sense but in any case i d still like to own the estate strong tank like chassis l inline six rear drive btw the only car drivers who have blocked me are land rover or jaguar drivers what you mean what i drive a cheapo japanese a toyota of course i do not have money for a car like bmw merc jaguar saab volvo or etc if i had the money i would have bad problems deciding which one to buy
rec.autos	re photo radar was re rec autos frequently in article viewlogic com brad buck viewlogic com bradford kellogg writes in article mar cabot balltown cma com welty cabot balltown cma com richard welty writes q what is ka band radar where is it used should a radar detector be able to handle it a ka band has recently been made available by the fcc for use in the us in so called photo radar installations in these installations a low powered beam is aimed across the road at a degree angle to the direction of traffic and a picture is taken of vehicles which the radar unit determines to have been in violation of the speed limit tickets are mailed to the owner of the vehicle because of the low power and the degree angle many people believe that a radar detector cannot give reasonable warning of a ka band radar unit although some manufacturers of radar detectors have added such capability anyway the number of locales where photo radar is in use is limited and some question the legality of such units best advice learn what photo radar units look like and keep track of where they are used or else don t speed photo radar and mailed tickets make no sense at all speeding is a moving violation committed by the operator not the owner the owner may be a rental agency a dealer a private party or a government agency as long as the owner has no reason to expect the operator will be driving illegally or unsafely the owner cannot be held responsible for what the operator does the car may even have been driven without the owner s knowledge or consent i can t believe a mailed ticket where the driver is not identified would stand up in court this is obviously a lazy cynical boneheaded fascist way to extort revenue and has nothing to do with public safety bk we had those f g photo radar things here in sweden a while ago there was a lot of fuzz about them and a lot of sabotage too a spray can with touch up paint can do a lot of good eventually they had to drop the idea as there were a lot of court cases where the owner of the car could prove he didn t drive it at the time of speeding i especially recall a case where it eventually proved to be a car thief that had stolen a car and made false plates he ofcourse chose a license number of a identical car so the photo seemed correct in conclosion photo radar sucks every way you look at it markus
rec.autos	clifford delta car alarm just found a great deal on a clifford delta car alarm installed comes with glass break sensor motion detector and shock detector does anyone have one of these alarms are they any good from the looks of it its about the best on the market for the price it s also on sale so that s another reason to get it i think i ll be saving almost any opinions eric lucas
rec.autos	re jeep grand vs toyota runner in article pq p p seven up east sun com jfox hooksett east sun com writes any reason you are limited to the two mentioned they aren t really at the same point along the suv spectrum not to mention price range how about the explorer trooper blazer montero and if the budget allows the land cruiser any advice on how to buy a land cruiser my local toyota dealer says they get two a year and if i want one i can just get on the waiting list forget about a test drive or even kicking the tires and if they are that rare i doubt there is much of a parts inventory on hand land crusier is just simply nice with shit load of power and room fully stocked it cost i think it is worth the money only problem is when you get into accident it doesn t usually break down unless you forget to get a oil change for miles or something stupid like this body parts and other parts are very hard to locate parts are over priced also one of my friend had accident in past snow storm and he is still waiting for front bumper and passenger side fender well if you test drive land cruiser all other suv look like toys one of magazine writer called it land bruiser if you have to spare for suv get land cruiser and forget lange rover sang
rec.autos	re integra gsr in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes miles a rare screw up by honda both the gtz and gsr are flawed cars the performance enthusiasts would take the gtz and the cr purchase would be the gsr the cr purchase would be the ford probe gt john john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn t it the black adder
rec.autos	re top reasons why i love cr not for the humor impaired chints iscs nus sg writes here are another ten reasons why we should all love cr car salesmen love their new car buying service car salesmen rec auto readers turned into expert statistics critics lucky owners of cr unreliable cars who say mine never had a problem those same owners joining the sceptics a few months later and later subscribing to cr and taking it soooo seriously and later on buying a cr idealized family sedan and my number the spectacle of the religious fervour of the cr true believers tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january
rec.autos	re experience opinions sought diesel engines in article hydra gatech edu jkg jmp com writes apologies if this is a faq is there a faq posting for this group i am an infrequent reader of rec autos so i can t remember i am in the market for a used chevy suburban and have observed that prices for models with diesel engines run about less than comparable models with a gas engine there has to be a reason for this yes there is consumer confusion in the early s with the fuel crisis etc everyone wanted better fuel mileage diesel fuel was the cheapest fuel available and usually provides better mileage than comparable gasoline engines so gm decided to conver their gas engine into a diesel engine i think was a liter big mistake the engine was not redesigned but converted the engine could not handle the higher compression etc lots of problems with these cars this thew up a big red flag to the casual observer don t buy a diesel they are bad this was a gross generalization ask yourself this question if your livelihood depended on driving lots of it would you use a dependable or undependable but cheaper in the short run vehicle what do greyhound busses have in them trailer trucks even train locomotives are these gasoline engines no they are diesel tractor trailer truck manufacturers provide a mile warrantee with they vehicles i own an diesel suburban the l diesel is a great engine just keeps going it was more expensive when new than the gasoline engine vehicle was the only problem with diesel engines is that when they need to be rebuilt they are expensive in a gas engine you will pay about for a rebuild diesel l is about but then again the diesel engine lasts about twice as long and gets about better mileage a carburator for a gasoline engine costs about to rebuild or less a rebuild of the fuel injection pump on a diesel will cost about or more but then again you never need a tune up if you re looking at a rebuilt l i d say you got a great deal check to see if the fuel injection pump was rebuilt also good luck
rec.autos	re necessity of fuel injector cleaning by dealership in article apr cbnewsl cb att com prm cbnewsl cb att com paul r mount writes in your experience how true is it that a fuel injector cleaning will do much more good than just using detergent gas while i agree that a clogged fuel injector would darken my day how clogged do they get and is a good price or can i do it myself by buying a can of what and doing what a fuel injector cleaning at the dealer is probably little more than them opening your gas tank dumping in a bottle of fuel injector cleaner and sending you on your merry way poorer go to kmart and buy the cleaner yourself for just because you dealer sez you need it don t mean it s necessarily so be suspicious jim grey jwg acd acd com
rec.autos	rfd rec autos saab request for discussion this is a request for discussion on the creation of a newsgroup concerning saab cars it will allow participaants to exchange information on purchasing maintaining repairing and outfitting saabs group name rec autos saab status unmoderated rationale there may be enough people with saab cars or interested in buying a saab or interested in knowing more about saabs for any reason to justify such a new newsgroup the recent growth of the net could improve the turnaround time between posing a question and receiving answers from the community discussion comments on this proposed new newsgroup should be posted to the usenet newsgroup news groups if the reader is not able to do so comments may be e mailed to the proposer at the address below voting if no problems arise voting will start month from the posting date of this rfd proposer tommy reingold tommy boole att com tommy reingold at t bell labs holmdel nj tommy boole att com or att boole tommy
rec.autos	re audiwatch update tm in article apr news cs brandeis edu andyh chaos cs brandeis edu andrew j huang writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes powell interlan interlan com glen d powell writes the kind of corporate raiding apparently undertaken by vw is shameful agreed however the particular execs had been working with iggy for many years and had left gm europe to go to detroit with their raison andy i was out of date vw is stealing execs directly from opel independent of lopez shameful andy
rec.autos	re quick question in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and i want to access its pins there is something going on here it seems that once a month the vw group must have get a specific detailed question about hondas i would like to ask that next month we get one about hyundai instead of honda thank you andy
rec.autos	re male female mystery re dumbest automotive concepts of all time bets chester ksu ksu edu beth schwindt writes this has me thinking is there a biological reason why women can t put their keys in their pants pockets like men do i have two pockets on the back of each of my pants i put my keys in one and wallent in another many of the pockets even have a botton on them so i can close them securely everything is that much simpler for me why can t women do the same is is biological ie not enough room for a bigger bottom plus keys and a wallet or is it the way they are raised by the parents i ve found that it has to do with the way women s clothes are made if you put keys in the front pocket of women s jeans or slacks you get a bulge that also tends to make it impossible to sit down because they stick you constantly ditto in the back pocket also try looking at the back pockets of women s jeans and compare them to the back pockets on men s jeans they are usually if you buy jeans that you expect to last for any length of time about half the size there flat out isn t room for a wallet or a bunch of keys besides which where would men put all their crap if their wives didn t carry purses the same place single men do wallet in back pocket comb in other back pocket keys in front pocket knive in other from pocket pen in shirt pocket or front pants pocket or do married men start carrying around a bunch of stuff to keep there women happy beth mark b
rec.autos	performance of new mustangs does anyone know the performance ratings for a or l ho mustang lx like the time mile and top end also can you tell me which magazine where these s come from so i can look them up if possable if you could the year and month and eveen page if you have it thanks doug
rec.autos	us made m b suv mercedes benz announced yesterday its plans to begin building sport utility vehicles in the us by they are targeted at the jeep grand cherokee et al and will reportedly sell for less than did anyone see a picture is it the g wagon gelaendewagen currently available in europe and in the us by grey market or is it an entirely new vehicle any details would be appreciated dick meyer applied research laboratory penn state
rec.autos	re us made m b suv in article rsm psuvm psu edu rsm psuvm psu edu writes mercedes benz announced yesterday its plans to begin building sport utility vehicles in the us by they are targeted at the jeep grand cherokee et al and will reportedly sell for less than did anyone see a picture is it the g wagon gelaendewagen currently there is a picture in the may edition of european car although it may not be on the shelf yet some things that the article says prototype has front wheel drive first front drive for mercedes since the beginning of wwii wheelbase m seater they claim that the price will be about the same as a renault espace or chrysler voyager dm looking at the picture slightly disguised it looks like the ford aerostar to me available in europe and in the us by grey market or is it an entirely new vehicle any details would be appreciated dick meyer applied research laboratory penn state larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo v fahrvergnugen forever the fact that i need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn t understand anyway
rec.autos	re w w or w in article jgladu jgladu bcm tmc edu grungy john f gladu writes in article apr cs tulane edu finnegan invader navo navy mil kenneth finnegan wrote as an additional data point i have run castrol w exclusively in the following cars rabbit scirocco rabbit bus beetle bus jetta gli i ve never had an oil related problem add mine to that list superbeetles bugs dddpanel cringe toyota tercel it s my wife s car honest i m still chicken about running it in the vanagon that s got castrol w in it i don t understand this last statement about the vanagon our vanagon owner s manual recommends w ari ollikainen former vw fanatic bug bug porschepower porsche sc bugauto stick camper camper westfalia vwporsche westfalia vanagon westfalia and now only vanagoncarat
rec.autos	honda crx for sale my friend david gordon wants to sell his honda some of the details of th e car are as follows five speed a c am fm cassette stereo ps pb rear window defroster excellent condition asking obo please call him at
rec.autos	re necessity of fuel injector cleaning by dealership in article apr acd acd com jwg sedv acd com jim grey writes in article apr cbnewsl cb att com prm cbnewsl cb att com paul r mount writes in your experience how true is it that a fuel injector cleaning will do much more good than just using detergent gas while i a fuel injector cleaning at the dealer is probably little more than them opening your gas tank dumping in a bottle of fuel injector cleaner and sending you on your merry way poorer go to kmart and buy the cleaner yourself for this should not be the case if they are at all reputable fuel injector cleaning is done properly with a can of injector cleaner solvent which is hooked up to the fuel system under high pressure the car is actually run on the solvent during the cleaning process the equipment to properly do this is pricey and generally not something the average home mechanic has the solvent itself is not very expensive and you could probably make up a hose to fit your system and do it yourself but i didn t tell you that not many in tank cleaners are worth wasting your money on there has been a discussion of these products on here from time to time and chevron techron not pro gard with techron is generally regarded as the best it is however a bit more than a bottle imho it will not substitute for proper injector cleaning if they are really crudded up you ll have to decide if the price is a better deal than spending your time and or buying equipment to do it scott keller the agricultural group of monsanto company sekell bb t monsanto com ka wch packet ka wch k pfx mo usa na
rec.autos	used taurus sho purchase quoting jeffrey j nucciarone s nucci microwave gsfc nasa gov article c g hv cs skates gsfc nasa gov of in pertinent part jj i am considering buying a used taurus sho the car in jj question has k miles i took it for a test drive the other day jj and a few questions came up jj jj jj second is there anything i should specifically look for in an jj sho of this vintage anything i should specifically ask abt jj brakes cluthch etc i noticed on the drive the clutch engagemen jj point seemed a little high since all my other cars are auto tragics jj i m not sure abt this point i had my foot firmly planted on the jj brake when i started it up there was a bit of a pop in the pedal jj soon after the engine started this also occured on a few t bird sc jj i test drove was this the abs self test brake rotors and the clutch are the main things there has been a clutch replacement program you might check to see if the car is still eligible as it is a change well worth making you can also swap the cruddy cable shifter for the newer rod shifter also a change worth making but that ll cost you some my brakes usually do one wibble wobble on startup so that is probably normal didn t know they had a self test that s interesting what kind of tires does the car have on it winqwk b for a good time dial on your sho
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time my ford has vent windows operated by a crank just like a window only it opened out like a normal vent window my f my dad s bronco and pretty much every truck i ve seen that s worth riding in has vent windows does that mean that i m not a young feller anymore james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center i don t understand the fascination with vent windows they create a tremendous turbulence and noise that makes even a simple connversation impossible at speeds above mph the current flow throuh ventilation if designed right are far more superior bijan
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time not exactly dumb but who remebers the tachometer on the or firebird bulging out of the hood right in front of the driver neat place but i love to know what the elemnts did to its internals after a few years also does the speedomete pointer on many us cars have to be feet long bijan
rec.autos	re was re safety from how far can you see a car ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes these lit up cars make non illuminated things less visible like pedistrians and bikes hopefully we re not going to mandate drl s for people and bikes too well drl s are already mandatory for motorcycles jon hacker get the os march beta cd rom caltech pasadena ca for hacker tumbler ridge caltech edu call ibm os
rec.autos	re top reasons why i love cr not for the humor impaired in article apr news cs brandeis edu andyh chaos cs brandeis edu andrew j huang writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes chints iscs nus sg writes here are another ten reasons why we should all love cr or the spectacle of macho real men who would never bother to read the magazine but are more than apt to criticize it but that s the point we do read it or at least we did then we found that their recommendations were useless and uninformed then we write lists the cr flame war is so easy to start because they are so wrong and claim to be so right and so thorough andy ok if you are so right name a few good examples that were brought up john john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn t it the black adder
rec.autos	re car insurance help in article c x yq l news claremont edu ochaine jarthur claremont edu ollie north chaine writes help my car insurance has been cancelled for the second time in a row i still haven t gotten in touch with my agent from aaa because she s out for the week but my mom said that i got a call saying that my insurance was going to be cancelled because of an accident not even a fender bender that was never declared or anything besides the fact that i have no idea how they found out about this the only other thing that could bug them is that i have ticket but i told them about it and they said that it wasn t a problem if i go to another insurance i know i will end up paying more b c i already shopped around for this one and i can t afford to pay for the insurance especially since i still haven t gotten the the two insuance companies are supposed to refund me i just got a new saturn sl and can t afford the car payments and the insurance but i bought the car having gotten a quote from state farm which they later went back on please help me what legal rights do i have can i make state farm who originally gave me the quote give me that rate they made a mistake after i signed all the papers i did not give any false evidence how can i get my money back for the car if i can t pay for the insurance i m deperate ollie i just went through this mess in new jersey i m still waiting for a refund as well namely that the original company made a mistake and left me in the lurch my recourse was through nj s insurance dept office of consumer protection you should have a similar office in your state make use of it good luck chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx pending delivery agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.autos	re top reasons why i love cr not for the humor impaired in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes chints iscs nus sg writes here are another ten reasons why we should all love cr car salesmen love their new car buying service and later on buying a cr idealized family sedan and my number the spectacle of the religious fervour of the cr true believers or the spectacle of macho real men who would never bother to read the magazine but are more than apt to criticize it hey i m a macho real man and i do read it so i can criticize it all i want especially since i pay for the publication they accept no outside advertising don t you know john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn t it the black adder relying on consumer reports to pick your automobiles is like letting field stream select your living room furniture kenneth finnegan navo navy mil
rec.autos	re lh car order delay i read an article in the chicago tribune stating that chrysler is having problems addressing the demand for the l engine for it s lh cars can anyone post how long they are waiting for an ordered car or how long they have been told they ll have to wait ordered mine december got it nine weeks later but the dealer said that new orders were being held up he didn t expect to see any more l engine lhs for awhile andrew klossner andrew frip wv tek com
rec.autos	re male female mystery re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article pq tkinnbek chester ksu ksu edu bets chester ksu ksu edu beth schwindt writes besides which where would men put all their crap if their wives didn t carry purses beth my wife rarely carries a purse so all of her crap ends up in my pockets ron deblock rdb homxb att com that s a number in rdb not letter l at t bell labs somerset nj usa
rec.autos	illegal tint windows i know it s a long shot but maybe someone went through this and will have some comments to share the story is this i bought a car out of state and i m trying to get the safety inspection in pennsylvania the problem is that the car has aftermarket tint on all windows except the windshield the tint is rather weak and you can clearly see the inside of the car through the tint the inspection garage said that they won t pass it unless i get a waiver from the state police so i went to the state police the officer told me that aftermarket tint is illegal and i can get a waiver only for a pre car or for a medical reason i asked him to show me the section of the vehicle code that says it s illegal he showed it to me and the paraghaph said that you can t have tint if you can t see the inside of the car because of the tint when i told him that you can in fact see the inside very well he shut the book and said it s just illegal and in fact we can have someone give you a ticket for it right now well won t argue with that since the vehicle code says it s ok as long as you can see through the tint i d like to keep it i ll re read the vehicle code in the library i d also like to get some sort of paper from the police that says it s ok so i can get the inspection and so that i won t get in trouble for the tint later on i also wouldn t mind registering a complaint against that officer he really pissed me off so does anyone have any experience getting that sort of a paper from the police especially in pennsylvania does anyone have any experience registering a complaint against an officer i called the station later on today but they basically said there is no place where i could register a complaint against an officer and if i do decide to keep the tint and get a ticket anyway how much of a chance do i stand to succesfully appeal the ticket in court any comments about it will be welcome michal
rec.autos	re top reasons why i love cr not for the humor impaired in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes blah blah blah ok if you are so right name a few good examples that were brought up let s create a new group rec autos cr is right no its not yes it is oh yeah my father can lick your father eliot
rec.autos	re new saturn argument in article c p m o noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert j wade writes ok how about this to argue about why does the sl have a much lower base price than the sc it s over k cheaper i forget the exact amount doesn t it cost more to have the extra doors windows locks motors etc that are in the door perhaps it is just a marketing deal people want the door so they will pay the extra k the sc sc has a shorter wheel base than the sl sl sl sw sw just a thought ithink your right though james lee a t t bell labs murray hill n j room a att conceps jwl
rec.autos	chevelle ss forsale i don t want to sell this car but i need money for college chevelle super sport rebuilt four speed bolt positrac numbers match original miles no rust looks and runs excellent or best offer call dennis at or email dennisk cs uoregon edu
rec.autos	re top reasons why i love cr not for the humor impaired in article apr cs tulane edu finnegan navo navy mil writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes chints iscs nus sg writes here are another ten reasons why we should all love cr car salesmen love their new car buying service and later on buying a cr idealized family sedan and my number the spectacle of the religious fervour of the cr true believers or the spectacle of macho real men who would never bother to read the magazine but are more than apt to criticize it hey i m a macho real man and i do read it so i can criticize it all i want especially since i pay for the publication they accept no outside advertising don t you know john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn t it the black adder relying on consumer reports to pick your automobiles is like letting field stream select your living room furniture kenneth finnegan navo navy mil no one should ever rely on just a magazine to determine what car they buy i don t care what magazine btw i subscribe to three other auto rags i just think cu is getting a bum rap by these macho men from hell who think real men should read statements like what you said above have no meaning people keep on saying cu is only good for dishwashing detergent or as you said relying on consumer reports is like and that is all they say if there were as critical of themsevles as they are of cu maybe there would be some real content john john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn t it the black adder
rec.autos	impreza altima or what a friend of mine is cnsidering buying a new car and is considering the subaru impreza or the nissan altima right now which of these two cars would you recommend we definately want an airbag and abs and room for tall people and long legs if you have other suggestions for cars under k after dealing i d be interested in you opinions as well please send replies to sem postoffice mail cornell edu no tthis address thanks scott
rec.autos	re advise needed in buying automobile from thwang mentor cc purdue edu tommy hwang subject advise needed in buying automobile i am in search of a dependable automobile to purchase below are its requirements v or above most of the cars you mentioned are below smaller than v engine tony name antonio l balsamo company digital equipment corp shrewsbury mass work e mail balsamo stargl enet dec com
rec.autos	re integra gsr quad reliable yeah what s your definition of reliable if that s reliable then its safe to say that integra engines in general are near perfect not to mention a hell of alot smoother and quieter balance shafts the acura has the engine wins the reliablity contest hands down you can rev that car all day everyday and you ll never blow a hose or crack the block or anything else i speak from expierence i m not saying the quad is a bad engine but don t highlight reliability when you comparing it to a acura engine and while the integra costs alot more it is a a couple of things blowing a hose doesn t speak of engine reliability and while it is true that quad s have a problem with head gasket leaks that was a design flaw in the gasket and has been corrected also i know pontiac is replacing head gaskets that leak for free for year k miles other than that i have found my quad to be completely solid and the direct ignition system means no wires rotor rotor cap to ever deal with also hydrolic lifters mean no valve adjustments ever i m not badmouthing the integra engine i just think you are going overboard on slamming the quad you are quite correct that the integra engine is quieter although i would not say smoother my quad loves to rev especially at the high end do you have any evidence of blocks cracking on quad s i have not heard of this
rec.autos	re most bang for between and in article oasys dt navy mil tobias oasys dt navy mil steve tobias writes in rec autos cpkjp vm cc latech edu kevin parker writes i d like to get some feedback on a car with most bang for the buck in the to price range i m looking for a car with enough civility to be driven every day or even on long trips but when i hit the gas i want to feel some acceleration handling is important also as are reliability and pretty low maintenance costs a stylish appearance is nice but i don t want a car that is all show and not much go even though many of the imports are fast i don t really want a turbo and i never have cared for the song sung by a four clyinder i d prefer a v or v for the engine if you have any suggestions kevin parker there s only one car that really fits your needs it s spelled liter mustang not sorry he said cvility long trips reliability and low maintenance cost
rec.autos	re necessity of fuel injector cleaning by dealership in article apr acd acd com jwg sedv acd com jim grey writes in article apr cbnewsl cb att com prm cbnewsl cb att com paul r mount writes in your experience how true is it that a fuel injector cleaning will do much more good than just using detergent gas while i agree that a clogged fuel injector would darken my day how clogged do they get and is a good price or can i do it myself by buying a can of what and doing what a fuel injector cleaning at the dealer is probably little more than them opening your gas tank dumping in a bottle of fuel injector cleaner and sending you on your merry way poorer go to kmart and buy the cleaner yourself for personally i wouldn t use the product from kmart i knew about this previously but this past weekend on pbs s motorweek pat goss their resident tech type discussed these products and recommends not using them i e the non isopropyl alcohlo based injector cleaners supposedly only the isopropyl based cleaners actually remove moisture from your fuel tank as they clean your injectors and although the others ethyl based do clean injectors they also cause rubber components in the fuel system to deteriorate and they don t mix well with water to help remove it from the fuel system i use a product recommended by vw called k by bg products inc it cost more about but it is supposed to do the job without the potential harmful side effects and its results are supposed to last from k to k miles i have also used chevron s techtrolene sp i can t say that i have noticed any difference using either since i only use these product as a preventative maintenance item just because you dealer sez you need it don t mean it s necessarily so be suspicious jim grey jwg acd acd com larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo v fahrvergnugen forever the fact that i need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn t understand anyway
rec.autos	re svx oil change in article c f i undergrad math uwaterloo ca swdwan napier uwaterloo ca donald wan writes my friend brought a subaru svx recently i had drove it for couples times and i think its a great car esp on snow however when she took it to a local subaru dealer for a oil change the bill came out to be about dollars the dealer told us it is because to change the oil filter on a svx it is necessary to disassemble a metal cover under the engine and that took an hour of labour at first we think we are being ripped off so she phone to a dealer in toronto but found out the they are charging roughly the same price so is there any svx owner out there that has the same problem and if the oil change story is true then the engineer of subaru looks pretty stubid to me by the way the car looks great labour prices for car service are very expensive in toronto compared to other parts of ontario for example there are places in ottawa that still charge only hour i ve seen a couple of places charging hour the cheapest i ve heard in toronto is hour swd wan doug zolmer internet dwjz bnr ca disclaimer my opinions only bell northern research ltd ottawa ontario canada conform moooo
rec.autos	re w w or w zowie daedalus stanford edu craig powderkeg deforest writes if you re planning on making long drives the w is probably fine esp in the summer in your w car but if you re making short drives stick to the w several years ago gm was having trouble with the rings sticking on the diesel they traced a cause to the use of w oil they would not honor warranty work if w was used if my memory serves me or was ok d though mark b
rec.autos	re male female mystery re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article pima inn gap caltech edu wen king cs caltech edu wen king su wrote in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen a rund writes apparently you re not a woman my husband hates the auto door locks features but forgets that besides families with children a woman feels safer in a car that locks easily in addition to watching around checking out if anyone s near me when i get to my car never park in a secluded spot etc have my keys ready to open the door so i m not fumbling in my purse looking for them this has me thinking is there a biological reason why women can t put their keys in their pants pockets like men do i have two pockets on the back of each of my pants i put my keys in one and wallent in another many of the pockets even have a botton on them so i can close them securely everything is that much simpler for me why can t women do the same is is biological ie not enough room for a bigger bottom plus keys and a wallet or is it the way they are raised by the parents women s pants rarely have pockets and most when they do are too shallow to use i is very important for a woman to have her keys in her hand when she goes from building to a car it is protect herself from would be assilants by broadcasting that this is someone who as a definite place of safty ie a locked car puting keys and walet looks ugly it breaks the lines and makes you rear look wide as a cows also to have the habits that work for any clothing situation the pruse functions no mater what you are wearing even nude or a bikni a women s suit coat is lucky to have pockets on the outside none on the inside i have men s coats that have as much as pockets this is definitally not fair as one that wears both men s and women s clothes i can tell you women s clothes have few if any funtional pockets when dressed as a man i put my wallet on my inside coat pocket and my keys in a coat outside pocket it is much more covenent than the pants pockets and looks better having a car that unlocks quickly and locks back fast is paramout to a woman s safty men don t see this as a problem a woman is aware of this every time she goes out i e image some red necks yelling at you we are going to fuck you and the out weight you by lbs and have inches in hight on you if you want to find out why a women does something live as one celeste
rec.autos	brake rotors cross drilling 
rec.autos	re saturn s pricing policy in article apr cs brown edu cs cs brown edu hok chung tsang writes moreover if saturn really does reduce the dealer profit margin by then their cars will be even better deals say if the price of a saturn was already below market average for the class of cars then after they reduce the dealer profit it would be below market average it will attract even more people to buy saturns because it would save them money force the competitors to lower their prices to survive but what is saturn s motivation here they re already selling every car they make with multiple shifts in the plant given this what possible motivation could they have to lower prices cheers richard richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	re new saturn argument in article c p m o noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert j wade writes ok how about this to argue about why does the sl have a much lower base price than the sc it s over k cheaper i forget the exact amount doesn t it cost more to have the extra doors windows locks motors etc that are in the door perhaps it is just a marketing deal people want the door so they will pay the extra k ok here s what i understand the sl sl sl sw sw was meant to compete with the following cars honda civic toyota tercel sl sl toyota corolla sl sl nissan sentra mazda protoge subaru loyale impreza isuzu stylus geo prizm ford escort mercury tracer mistubishi mirage plymouth dodge colt their core competition is the civic corolla and sentra most of the other models are in the same class but aren t the first cars you would think of i threw in the escort tracer because it has a good amount of japanese technology and has similar reliability stats i didn t include domestic small cars such as the cavalier sunbird shadow sundance tempo and topaz since i think saturn is going after cars that have at least some degree of japanese roots the sc sc was meant to compete against the following cars toyota paseo honda civic si civic coupes del sol si nissan nx nx mazda mx isuzu impulse geo storm ford escort gt if you look at the prices of these cars they re more expensive than they re door counterparts the is good reason for this it is a more upscale and trend driven market even though many of these models are based on sedan platforms their interior etc is good enough to warrant slightly higher prices here are some of the platform derivations i can think of tercel paseo sentra nx nx civic del sol mx not sure on this one stylus impulse storm to illustrate a tercel starts at around while the paseo starts at around even a door tercel will cost less than a door paseo now you might be saying that the tercel doesn t offer the power that some doors offer what i mean is that there is no dr tercel with a comparable powerplant as its sport coupe derivative let s take another example the isuzu stylus xs and impulse xs storm gsi both have the same powerplants a l hp engine but the smaller dr coupes are generally more expensive again this is because the two door sport coupe market is a more fashion oriented and trend setting segment people are willing to pay more money for this type of car in short even though the sc sc may be smaller hence less car it s market orientation dictates a slightly higher price than its mechanically equivalent sedan sl sl version i hope this clears things up a bit mihir shah
rec.autos	apology was re did us drive on the left in a previous article dh q andrew cmu edu daniel u holbrook says i m guessing but i believe in the twenties we probably drove mostly down cattle trails and in wagon ruts i am fairly sure that placement of the steering wheel was pretty much arbitrary to the company at that time by the s there was a very active good roads movement which had its origins actually in the s during the bicycle craze picked up steam in the teens witness the linclon highway association or so and the us highway support act real name something different in that first pledged federal aid to states and counties to build decent roads also the experience of widespread use of trucks for domestic transport during ww convinced the government that good raods were crucial to our national defense anyway by the s there were plenty of good roads at least around urban areas and they were rapidly expanding into the countryside this was the era after all of the first auto touring fad the motel the auto camp ground etc two good books on the subject spring to mind warren belasco america on the road title may not be exact author is and another called the devil wagon in god s country author i forget also any of john flink s or john bell rae s auto histories i m sorry as i have never heard of any of this guess they don t think it s important enough for a classroom and i was going on what i ve seen in pics some movies real nice scource there huh i just always recall thinking that good roads of asphalt didn t come around til the interstate hiway act or whatever they called it s and that wood and cobblestone roads were fairly rare up through the depression except in overpopulated places like england and us cities obviously netwisdom says i am wrong as to placement of the steering wheel being arbitrary by the early teens there were virtually no american cars that did not have the wheel on the left in the early days cars had the wheel on the left on the right and even in the middle as well as sometimes having a tiller instead of a wheel this was standardized fairly early on though i don t know why i knew it was almost always done but i knew of no reason that it might not be done the other way by desoto for their car seems like they had some other deviations from the norm too at times dan dh q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history world history strides on from catastrophe to catastrophe whether we can comprehend and prove it or not oswald spengler thanx for corrrecting me and again i aplogize for harebraned post drew
rec.autos	re most bang for between and jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes in article apr progress com damelio progress com stephen d amelio writes rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert j wade writes there s only one car that really fits your needs it s spelled liter mustang sports car butm my mothers gt was considered a sports car i still can t quite figure that out since when do plastic add ons make a car a sports car jeff we re talking about insurance agents from bumf k illinois st farm is hq ed in bloomington what the hell do they know about cars both are sports cars chintan amin the university of illinois urbana champaign mail llama uiuc edu because he was human because he had goodness because he was moral they called him insane peart cinderella man
rec.autos	re do it yourself front end alignment possible davidd lonestar utsa edu david de leon writes in article bu edu selick csa bu edu steven selick writes i ve got an plymouth colt that i d like to do a front end alignment on is it possible to do without all of the fancy schmancy gadgets the pros have how steve no no no no if you do so you are putting the lives of others on the road at consider able risk why do you think mechanics are ase certified anyway you put it you need those fancy scmancy gadgets awww right you want all the home mechanics lined up against a wall and shot eh bull pucky you chicken read the service manual and get your head out of the sand certainly there are tools for the job that are cheaper than an alignment rack that do the job as competently albeit not as swiftly if not more accurate due to the natural pride an owner mechanic places on his work you can do an acceptable job of aligning a car using simple tools and some imaginative work that would never have the effect of endangering anyones life the worst that happens is that your tires wear oddly well you could have the wheels aiming totally pigeon toed and not be able to steer the car raise your hands those that think their vision is so poor that they would screw up this badly i bet you are one of those people that feels that honing a cylinder wall with sand paper will kill millions of people it aint magic go take the certification course and look at the people that have never learned to add in their whole life that are taking the certification btw i am disgusted at the colt and some of the other chrysler offerings because they go out of alignment if you sneaze at them my chrysler laser similar to the daytona a reskinned colt needed a realignment every months bolt a good grade x to each wheel using a carefully welded spacer jig measure toe in adjust to manufacturer specs camber a bit more difficult to adjust and measure i used a micrometer to measure the space between the rim and a funky bent up pipe that could be placed on upper and lower portions of the rim on the inside of wheel hard to explain this same tool could be used instead of the x s i had made these tools up right after the last alignment done professionally so i had a reference that the original poster might not ciao mark
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time seningen maserati ross com mike seningen mph speedos esp the electronic ones the digital dash of the cougars with the large analog clock in the middle of the dash everything was digital except the stinking clock the funny thing about the digital dash t bird with the mph speedo limit was that if you pressed the button to convert to kilometers it would read all the way up to kph at this point the stock anemic would get short of breath this of course was equivalent to about mph hehe i bet i really coulda confused this thing if i d toyed with the engine and rolled the stupid thing the digits were limited to i ve gotta agree with ya on the analog clock w digital dash though my girlfriend had a turbocoupe with a digital clock and analog gauges radio go figure usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator i love the keyless entry on my t bird it s great for those times that i had to stop to put air in my tires i could get out and lock the door with the engine running while i ran around to air up the tire it also i had a great feature on my t bird i could pull the key out and leave the ignition on this scared the hell out of me the first time it happened but i kinda grew to like it musta been a bad key copy or something mark novakovic there is no god up in the sky tonight no sign of heaven anywhere in sight nin jesus loves ya blow me in tribute to my former area supervisor jim bonneau and the infamous bonneau math demoted not departed ministry
rec.autos	re do trains have radar hhtra usho hou chevron com t m haddock writes i came upon a train parked on a trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes just as i passed from underneath the trestle my radar detector went into full alert all lights lit and all chirps beeps and buzzes going strong could this have been caused by the train s radio or what recently manufactured locomotives have wheel slip detection systems that use frequencies shared with police radar i forget which band these will set off your radar detector if you get close enough though i believe the range is pretty short btw railroad police sometimes use radar to check for speeding trains just like regular police check for speeding cars although the intent here is for safety not revenue collection unlike with cars
rec.autos	re braindead drivers who don t look ahead in article zdem a hgo zdem a hgo hou amoco com donna martz writes so i block the would be passers not only for my own good but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it as a rule of philosophy i don t feel particularly sorry when somebody gets offed by his own stupidity but it does worry me when some idiot is in a position to cash in my chips too h h mayo well aren t we just mr altruism himself just what the world needs another frustrated self appointed traffic cop well if you want to stick the nose of your car up the ass of a foot semi i suppose it s your neck however i m not going to let you kill me in the bargain if you get frustrated by somebody delaying your inevitable death due to less that wise driving practices then tough thank god for the fourth of july for it yearly rids the earth of a considerable load of fools mark twain
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr lmpsbbs comm mot com sheinfel ssd comm mot com aviad sheinfeld writes do you think i can use a electric drill change to a suitable bit to turn it out if i can succeed can i re tighten it not too tight is it safe without oil leak tighten the bolt to the specified torque in your service manual that way it won t leak strip break etc hopefully thank you very much in advance winson aviad you can avoid these problems entirely by installing an oil drain valve in place of the bolt i have one on both of my cars there have been no leaks in miles combined miles on both cars ron deblock rdb homxb att com that s a number in rdb not letter l at t bell labs somerset nj usa
rec.autos	re aftermarket air conditioners in article qcaueinnmt axon cs unc edu andrew brandt writes i looked into getting a c installed on my honda crx si the unit is plus shipping installation is like hours on top of that this is a hunk of change does anyone know any place that does aftermarket a c installation not with a honda a c unit but some third party unit i cannot seem to find anyone who can put a third party a c unit in a honda i am in no carolina so i would prefer some place nearby but any references would be handy thx andy brandt cs unc edu sorry i can t help you with your question but i do have a comment to make concerning aftermarket a c units i have a frost king or frost temp forget which aftermarket unit on my cavalier and am quite unhappy with it the fan is noisy and doesn t put out much air i will never have an aftermarket a c installed in any of my vehicles again i just can t trust the quality and performance after this experience les les bartel i m going to live forever intergraph corporation or die trying electronics division ljbartel ingr com or ljbartel naomi b b ingr com
rec.autos	re braindead drivers who don t look ahead i agree that if traffic is all blocked up and you want to pass you might not feel like moving over for someone behind you because you don t want to give them that one car length when they should just wait like you are but if you re one of those people that just sit s behind the person and doesn t flash them with the high beams or pull left and flash them or ride their bumper or otherwise tell them that you do in fact want to go by and you re not just drafting them then get the hell out of the way of someone who will i especially hate it when you flash someone at the back of a line and they don t pass it on and there s also the issue of some cars being more intimidating to get people out of the way than others for instance gts look pretty mean in a rearview mirror at night with the foglights on there have been plenty of times when i ve broken up a pack that a second in line hyundai has been behind for miles you just need to know how to get their attention i d like to see you use this method on a couple of semi drivers if they see you they usually acknowledge by sticking their hand out the window with their middle finger extended because it is also obvious to them that there is no clear lane ahead h h m
rec.autos	my day in court results a while back i asked for help in defending a traffic ticket i received in short the ticket was for not stopping at a stop sign given the conditions i could not stop in time and decided instead of sliding right through the intersection i would complete my right turn and avoid a possible accident a police cruiser happened to be approaching the intersection from my left and gave me the ticket the officer said the only reason that you even slowed down in the first place was that you saw me approaching otherwise you would have bombed right through i would like to thank all those who responded favorably to my request for help to all of those who told me to bite the bullet and pay the fine phghghghgh the judge sided with me and decided that in this case not stopping was the safest thing to do and found me not guilty the officer s statement and my account of the conditions at the time very slippery backed by newpaper weather conditions were the factors what made the judge decide on his verdict moral if you have never been to court before and you think you have a case go for it it is a very interesting process and it is there for your benefit exercise your rights trev name trevor paquette landmark ita fahrvergnuegen email tpaquette ita lgc com calgary alberta canada visitor from cyberspace g renegade of virtual reality include disclaimer h o o
rec.autos	re saturn manual transmission problem i had exactly the same problem with a horizon third gear would just disengage engine would rev up kind of disconcerting i sold that car quite a few years back but the memory of that tranny sticks with me it also had a clutch chatter in first that the dealer could not fix if the lemon law had been in place then that car would have been covered i have had several jap cars since then figuring the horizon was my contribution to the american auto companies and have never seen any bad behavior with the exception of a toyota tercel with a bit of clutch chatter that they did fix on the first try anyway from that day forward i have sworn that i would never purchase another american car with a standard american manufacturers don t have a clue on how to manufacture five speed transmissions and have been doing the automatics much longer and on many more cars however i hate automatics so i am still buying jap cars not sure this is any help but other cars do this too cheers larry larry rogers larry rogers dg com big brother larry boris webo dg com is watching data general the opinions contained herein are my own and do not reflect the opinions of data general or anyone else but they should sometimes we are the windshield sometimes we are the bug dire straits
rec.autos	regal fiberglass parts i have a regal and i am interested in buying a fiberglass hood trunk and bumpers for it does anybody know of a company who makes fiberglass parts for regals thanks in advance mike
rec.autos	re do trains have radar in article x fvt b dixie com jgd dixie com john de armond writes hhtra usho hou chevron com t m haddock writes while taking an extended easter vacation i was going north on i somewhere between centerville tx and dallas tx and i came upon a train parked on a trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes there appeared to be movement within the cab and out of curiosity i slowed to to get a better look just as i passed from underneath the trestle my radar detector went into full alert all lights lit and all chirps beeps and buzzes going strong i thought i had been nailed good but no police materialized some but not all locomotives have doppler speedometers the radar head is mounted looking down at the ground to minimize intereference sent and received but looking tangentally at a wheel these are low power units and typically won t trigger radar detectors unless an unusual situation such as yours arises john john de armond wd oqc interested in high performance mobility performance engineering magazine tm interested in high tech and computers marietta ga send ur snail mail address to jgd dixie com perform dixie com for a free sample mag need usenet public access in atlanta write me for info on dixie com this makes sense radar pointed down because almost every train i pass head on that triggers my radar detector does so more just after i have passed the front of the engine i get a little of the reflections as i am approaching and the instant i get to the side of the first engine the detector receives a fairly strong signal for a short time it happens with just about every train i see
rec.autos	re electronic odometers was used bmw question i consulted with someone working on an electronic odometer the design was to use a microprocessor based system to write a somewhat ofuscated pattern into an eeprom the idea was to make the circuit difficult to program arbitrary values into the eeprom the secondary purpose acutally the primary purpose from the standpoint of practicality was to distributed the writes so as to avoid exceeing the maximum number of writes fof the eeprom being used the microprocessor also ignored pulses coming from the hall effect at a rate any higher than mph so as to make spoofing the reading by bench pulsing at least somewhat undesirable this was for an automobile that was not expected to ever exceed mph in operation the case of course might not be the same for your rx the ecm modules of some cars do indeed store info about conditions under which cars have been operated since steering angle and velocity data etc is available it would not be difficult to collect all sorts of interesting demographic information about the drivers use of the car i am not aware of any manufacturer currently trying to enforce warranty restrictions based on reading out use data from the ecm while it could be a potential invasion of your privacy for manufacturers to have access to data about your driving style it could also provide valuable information from actual field use conditions to help engineer more appropriate cars i personally wouldn t mind the dealer collecting my driving demographics as long as it is done in an anonymous fashion bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
rec.autos	re open letter to nissan in a previous article smorris sumax seattleu edu steven a morris says or here s an even better suggestion why don t you guys go ahead and buy the rest of fuji heavy industries subaru and put either an in line or v into the legacy wd wagon i d buy the legacy in a minute if it had a nissan engine instead of the horizontal that they seem sentimentally attached to what do you find so wrong with the flat in the subaru s or the flat for that matter dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	after market cruise controls specific questions howdy i m a little new to this newsgroup but i would like to tap some of the knowledge and expertise available here the subject after market cruise controls the background i recently broke my ankle in a road bicycling accident places five screws yuk in two weeks i will be returning to texas my home from my school byu in provo utah as you can imagine trying to drive nearly miles with a broken right ankle isn t just the epitome of a good time my car does not have a cruise control so i would have to do all the pedalling ha ha with my messed up ankle my question what is the general opinion of after market cruise control units i realize that a cheap cc cruise control from say pep boys isn t going to be as good as a factory or professionally installed unit if there is such a thing and i uderstand that i probably can t expect much in the way of accuracy looks and that sort of thing but anything s gotta be better than trying to drive with a hosed ankle i have a jeep cherokee speed standard l engine with kettering sp ignition y know distributor cap rotor that set up not electronic maybe you could ve guessed it being an but i m just trying to give information as completly as i can i found a cc unit for bucks it seems to use the vehicles vacuum system instead of an electric servor motor is this good or bad if i did buy this cc which vacuum hose should i tap it has two speed sensors one magnetic and one that gets a signal from the negative side of the distributor kinda like a tach pick up or so i understand i can use either one which is best the manual says i read it in the store today that the magnetic axle set up is more accurate but harder to install is there really a big difference it has a sensor for the brake pedal just like other ccs but does not have a sensor for the clutch pedal so if i wasn t paying real close attention i might push the clutch in while the cruise is trying to get the speed up which would wind the engine up kinda high until i got my wits about me and turned the thing off i m pretty coordinated so this doesn t bother me if it were for my girlfriends car then it would bother me but i m ok with it the installation also calls for an attachment to a steady on brake signal and a switched on brake signal i think i can get a switched brake signal from the correct side of the brake light blade fuse am i right but i m not sure where to get the steady on brake signal or for that matter what exactly it is any ideas as to what the manufaturer wants and where to get it i think i can figure the other things out like how to hook up the negative side tach type sensing gizmo and the cabin control unit and the ground and all that miscellaneous business but i need a little help with is it worth the money and safety risk if any for such a device is there any particularly good after market cc are professionally installed ccs signifacantly better and worth the cabbage if the unit i saw sorry no manufacturer or model number just that it is at pep boy and its is sufficient for my simple needs how do i get the thing installed properly specifically the questions above my father and i built a veep volkswagen powered jeep cj a when i was in high school so i consider myself fairly good with tools electronics and cars so the installation doesn t scare me i just want to be certain that i get the thing installed correctly as my cherokee is just a wee bit more complicated than my veep i appreciate your time in reading my post and i would appreciate any expertise or opinion anybody has on the subject if you would like to share some of your wisdom please email as i don t get over this group very often but i check my mail all the time again thanks for any help anyone may have mike wieda mikew canc byu edu
rec.autos	re did us drive on the left rob reilly whips and their tempers initially all cars were built with the driver s controls on the right because that s the way people drove buggies so the this is just not so many of the earliest cars had their steering controls in the center of the vehicle and there is no discernible pattern of left or right hand steering controls until a few years into the th century when in america at least left hand wheels became the pattern the mule team or horses i imagine explanation however seems to have some merit dan dh q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history this coffee plunges into the stomach the mind is aroused and ideas pour forth like the battalions of the grand army on the field of battle memories charge at full gallop the light cavalry of comparisons deploys itself magnificently the artillery of logic hurry in with their train of ammunition flashes of wit pop up like sharp shooters honore de balzac cups day
rec.autos	re license plates nissan in a previous article edf marshall wvnet edu says hi i m interested in getting the list for license plate numbers if anyone has a listing i d appreciate getting a copy of it thanks you must be incredibly bored have you considered reading the phone book dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	re isuzu amigo opinions sought in a previous article sdexter shl com scott dexter says i like the amigo i would like some feedback any and all feedback appreciated yet another jeep wannabe designed for yuppies who will never take it off road but want to look outdoorsey dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	re license plates in a previous article edf marshall wvnet edu says hi i m interested in getting the list for license plate numbers if anyone has a listing i d appreciate getting a copy of it thanks you must be incredibly bored have you considered reading the phone book dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	re truck tailgates mileage in article mar ns cc lehigh edu jh ns cc lehigh edu jun he writes in article mar nosc mil koziarz halibut nosc mil walter a koziarz writes in article hpscit sc hp com chrisw hpscit sc hp com chris wiles wr ites consumers report did a study i think and found that most trucks got worse mileage with the tailgate off the tailgates on the newer trucks actually help oh sure they do and replacing the front bumper and grille with a closet door helps mileage and cooling if cr actually said that then they have bigger fools working for them than the fools that believe their drivel but who am i to argue this just someone that s been a pickup driver for years that s all forget the net just take off the tailgate on hiway trips since the nets aren t designed to nor capable of restraining a load in the bed anyway around town the tailgate will have a negligable effect on mileage anyway walt k they may help to improve mileage in some cases i believe with the tailgate on the flow structure behind the cab may differ and the vortex drag may be reduced during high speed driving how about those toneau covers i ve been thinking of building one from chipboard for roadtrips any comment on how they affect mileage in highway travel charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	chevy sprint i have a chevy sprint with a c and doors it s odometer turned k and the sensor light started blinking i went to the dealer and he said it was a maintenance light saying i need to change the oxygen sensor he said it is to be changed every k but since i bought the car when it had k i don t know if the same thing happened at k and k he quoted for the part and to install it the part cost outside but the mechanic i went to could not fix it saying the sensor is placed too deep in the engine parts he suggested i wait till it malfunctions before i do anything if anyone out there owns a chevy sprint i want to know how they got their oxygen sensors changed also did you face any problem with fixing it without the dealer s help also what are the results of the oxygen sensor malfunction any help would be greatly apprecisted thanks nagesh
rec.autos	re old corvettes low insurance in article apr ns cc lehigh edu swr ns cc lehigh edu scott warren rosander writes in article c csux fn news cso uiuc edu gdhg uxa cso uiuc edu george hei nz writes after too many years of school i m finally graduating and getting a real job of course i am trying to make plans of how to spend all this extra money right now i have an accord a good car but not real sporty i was thinking of selling it in about two years and dropping around k on a sports car of some kind after thinking about it i may have a better idea i ll keep the accord until it drops and buy the car i ve always wanted a corvette stingray my reasoning is that accord corvette is less than what i would spend anyway basically i m thinking of a late s early s for around k my question is what are good years to consider for reliability looks horsepower in that order believe it or not horsepower is not a main concern if i want to go fast i get on my motorcycle and what are good prices also what would insurance look like i m male single i might wait until i m to get the car lower insurance would the fact that i mainly drive the other car lower it is there some type of classic car or rarely driven insurance class for driving it under k miles per year my dad has a vette and its on what you say classic insurance basically what that means is that it has restricted amount of driving time which basically means it cant be used as an every day car and would probably suit your needs for limited mileage in addition to restricted mileage many classic insurance carriers also require that the vehicle be garaged when not in use ericy eric youngblood bell northern research richardson texas peon w o email privs
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr cbnewsj cb att com rdb cbnewsj cb att com ronald j deblock jr writes you can avoid these problems entirely by installing an oil drain valve in place of the bolt i have one on both of my cars there have been no leaks in miles combined miles on both cars yes but then someone would have no problem draining your oil in a parking lot all they have to do is reach underneath turn a valve and forget the trip home but there is less likelyhood they have a wrench with them i personally recommend installing a special locking drain plug to keep vandals away steve
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article c hqj unix amherst edu bhtulin unix amherst edu barak h tulin writes i just started reading this thread today so forgive me if it has already been mentioned but what was the deal with renault s putting the horn on the left hand turn signal stalk it was a button on the end where the washer button would be on the wiper washer stalk could the frenchies not figure out the wiring through the steering wheel or what well before we start calling the engineering folks in france a bunch of braindeads for this my mercury capri had this lovely feature this was not the earlier german variant but the newer one that was identical to the mustang of current fame i can t tell you how many times this feature pissed me off come to think of it my brothers zepher had this as well robert dilmore dilmore cray com going back to an earlier thread imagine having to turn left shift gears flash a stray driver in the intersection with your left hand high beam on the headlight stalk and after the driver wouldn t move having to honk the horn on the left hand stalk gives me the heebie jeebies barak
rec.autos	re do trains busses have radar in article c fqfy fpq usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes in apr usho hou chevron com hhtra usho hou chevron com t m haddock writes while taking an extended easter vacation i was going north on i somewhere between centerville tx and dallas tx and i came upon a train parked on a trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes there appeared to be movement within the cab and out of curiosity i slowed to to get a better look just as i passed from underneath the trestle my radar detector went into full alert all lights lit and all chirps beeps and buzzes going strong i thought i had been nailed good but no police materialized could this have been caused by the train s radio or what i don t know about trains but i ve saw a sign on the back of a greyhound bus that warns you that your radar detector may be set off it doesn t explain why but it does set off my radar detector from the e net desk of rick colombo cd dcd dsg fermi nat l acc l lab fermilab p o box ms feynman computer center batavia ill usa colombo fnal fnal gov of course i speak for fermilab congress and the president not
rec.autos	re sprayed on bedliner info wanted in rec autos dennis hpcvra cv hp com dennis schloeman writes xsorry to repost this again so soon but xthe information from my earlier post was xdeleted from our system xi am looking for information concerning x sprayed on bedliners for pickup trucks xa company here does it using polyurethene xbut they ve only been around for months xso there s not much of a track record here xis the sprayed on bedliner any good how xwell do they hold up over the years any xinfo would be appreciated x xthanks x xdennis do you have a ziebart dealer in your area they ve offered spray on bed liners around here for several years if you do see what kind of a warranty they have unfortunately i don t know anyone who has gotten one so i can t help you there also ask if they can give you a list of references mack costello mcostell oasys dt navy mil code formerly david taylor model basin carderock division hq nswc bethesda md phone
rec.autos	car buying story was christ another dealer service scam in article qhs dinnj b hp col col hp com tvervaek col hp com tom vervaeke writes experience with jeep service dept while not exactly a service incident i had a similar experience recently when i bought a new truck i had picked out the vehicle i wanted and after a little haggling we agreed on a price i wrote them a check for the down payment plus tax and license and told them i d be back that evening to pick up the truck when i returned i had to wait about an hour before the finance guy could get to me when i finally got in there everything went smoothly until he started adding up the numbers he then discovered that they had miscalculated the tax license by about he then said he needed another from me i said we had already agreed on a price and it was their problem i wasn t giving them any more money the finance guy then brought in the manager on duty who proceeded to give me a hard time i reminded him that i was the customer and i didn t think i should be treated like that and that if he didn t back off he could forget the whole deal he made some smart remark so i told him where he could stick it snatched back my check and left needless to say they were not pleased by the turn of events early the next morning i got a call from the general sales manager wanting to know what happened i related the story and he apologised profusely and asked if there was anything they could do to change my mind i told him that if they gave me the truck for free i probably still wouldn t take it that there were other dealers in town i was a repeat customer of theirs and that they should learn how to treat customers etc etc i was still pretty steamed about the whole affair he gave me the line about hating to lose a customer and they would try to find a solution etc etc i told him not to bother thanks i d go somewhere else a couple hours later the owner of the dealership called me all apologetic etc etc etc and said that they would cover the plus knock another off the price of the truck i told him i d think about it and he gave me his private direct phone number his secretary s name and assured me that they valued me as a customer etc etc etc i thought about it for a few hours and discussed it with my wife and we decided what the hell that was a pretty decent deal so i called him back and accepted his offer when i went back the next day to pick up the truck i received the royal treatment everyone seemed to know about the incident even the lot boy everything went smoothly and i was out of there in my new truck in about mins so i guess i m a reasonably satisfied customer however it should not have happened in the first place i was a bit shocked to have a sales person talk to me like that i don t expect them to bow and grovel but i sure don t expect to be given a hard time either esp when it s their mistake anyway i m happy with the truck and it turned out to be a couple hundred dollars under invoice and they paid most of the first year s license fee i m not sure whether i ll go back to that dealer tho mark
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in rec autos boyle cactus org craig boyle writes xin article qgi einnhs skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca yik chong lam x writes x hello x x does anyone know how to take out the bolt under the engine x compartment should i turn clockwise or counter i tried any kind x of lubricants wd etc but i still failed x do you think i can use a electric drill change to a suitable x bit to turn it out if i can succeed can i re tighten it not too x tight is it safe without oil leak x xassuming you don t have a russian car with opposite threads then xyou turn counterclockwise i would get some professional xhelp here you may not have located the draing plug and xactually be trying to loosen something else x xcraig x x x thank you very much in advance winson x this reminds me of the first time my cousin did an oil change on his car he crawled under removed a bolt drained the fluid replaced the bolt then carefully poured in quarts of oil didn t bother to check the dip stick just drove off didn t get too far till me found out that he d drained the speed trans and dumped an extra quarts into the engine moral as craig said don t be ashamed to get some in person help the first time mack costello mcostell oasys dt navy mil code formerly david taylor model basin carderock division hq nswc bethesda md phone
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven j orlin writes in article apr cbnewsj cb att com rdb cbnewsj cb att com ronald j deblock jr writes you can avoid these problems entirely by installing an oil drain valve in place of the bolt i have one on both of my cars there have been no leaks in miles combined miles on both cars yes but then someone would have no problem draining your oil in a parking lot all they have to do is reach underneath turn a valve and forget the trip home but there is less likelyhood they have a wrench with them i personally recommend installing a special locking drain plug to keep vandals away steve i was worried about someone stealing my oil once also i finally decided to just have my drain plug welded shut it works great i figure that when i add three or four quarts when the oil light comes on every month or so that it s just as good or better than the old wives tale of changing the oil and filter every miles works for me i must say
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven j orlin writes in article apr cbnewsj cb att com rdb cbnewsj cb att com ronald j deblock jr writes you can avoid these problems entirely by installing an oil drain valve in place of the bolt i have one on both of my cars there have been no leaks in miles combined miles on both cars yes but then someone would have no problem draining your oil in a parking lot all they have to do is reach underneath turn a valve and forget the trip home most cars have drain petcocks in the radiators and i ve never seen nor heard of a vandal opening one i imagine that there would be an even lower risk with an oil plug because you have to crawl furthur under the car to open it car vandals are usually real traditional in their methods and do things that don t get them dirty like keying your car dumping sand sugar or mothballs in the gas tank tping it etc boycott usl novell for their absurd anti bsdi lawsuit drew eckhardt condemn colorado for amendment two drew cs colorado edu use linux the fast flexible and free unix
rec.autos	mazda forsale for sale mazda mazda white exterior grey interior miles interior in very good condition exterior in good condition pioneer dx car stereo cd player fm presets am removable faceplate seperate component speakers professionally mounted in the doors the car has been well maintained i wax it often and keep the interior clean its a good running car with a solid body no rust thru tiny spots of surface rust when i see a spot i touch it up the stereo makes the car i have had no mechanical problems with it i m looking for firm the car has an average wholesale value of about without the stereo the stereo cost me last july if you are interested call or email me at carl mercer cm cci com evening
rec.autos	re license plates in article apr marshall wvnet edu edf marshall wvnet edu writes hi i m interested in getting the list for license plate numbers if anyone has a listing i d appreciate getting a copy of it thanks you can go to the dmv and ask for their listing although i don t know where you may actually buy a copy you can use theirs for your perusal in california the listing of personalized license plates run volumes each about thick i hope this is what you re asking for ken kenneth k f lui klui corp hp com hanover street ms bj corporate administrative information systems palo alto ca usa core application technologies fax
rec.autos	re changing oil by self rist another dealer service scam in a previous article bmoss grinch sim es com brent woody moss says i was worried about someone stealing my oil once also i finally decided to just have my drain plug welded shut it works great i figure that when i add three or four quarts when the oil light comes on every month or so that it s just as good or better than the old wives tale of changing the oil and filter every miles works for me i must say i did the same thing to my drain plug for the same reasons i was wondering how you filled your crankcase though as i welded my hood shut also out of fear that somebody might steal my air filter dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	rec autos welcome to to the new reader archive name rec autos part most recent changes march addition of alt autos karting rpw welcome to rec autos this article is sent out automatically each month and contains a general description of the purpose of each of the automotive newsgroups and some suggested guidelines for discussions the keywords monthly posting will always appear to make killing this article easy for users of newsreaders with kill facilities this article is posted to all autos groups but followups are directed only to rec autos if you don t understand what this means ask your system administrator for help or at least for copies of the newuser documentation failing that please subscribe to the newsgroup news announce newusers and read the documentation provided there introduction to the rec autos newsgroup hierarchy rec autos tech is intended for technical discussions of automobiles their design construction diagnosis and service other discussions are largely inappropriate especially for sale ads rec autos sport is intended for discussion of legal organized competition involving automobiles technical discussions are appropriate insofar as they apply to competition vehicles discussion from either of two viewpoints spectator and participant is encouraged arguments about sports cars are largely inappropriate as are most other discussions for sale ads are inappropriate unless they are for competition vehicles and or equipment discussions of illegal events are marginal one should probably avoid advocating breaking the law remember the fbi reads usenet rec autos driving is intended for discussions related to the driving of automobiles also if you must discuss vs or radar detectors or insert your pet driving peeve boneheads do it here rec autos vw is intended for discussion of issues related to the use and ownership of automobiles manufactured by volkswagen this includes vws audis seats etc it was created on the grounds that the info vw mailing list was very successful it should not be presumed from the existence of this group that it is appropriate to create many groups to cover many different marques groups specific to individual marques should only be created on demonstration of sufficient interest via some avenue such as a mailing list rec audio car is not properly part of the rec autos hierarchy it is however the correct place for discussion of automotive audio equipment and so is mentioned here rec autos antique is intended for the discussion of older cars usually more than years old although this is not a hard and fast rule alt hotrod is not part of the hierarchy but also of potential interest to the rec autos reader it is gatewayed to the moderated hotrod mailing list and is for serious discussion of modifying and developing performance vehicles alt autos rod n custom also not part of the official hierarchy devoted to that peculiar american hobby of customizing older cars alt autos karting for the discussion of the popular motorsport and hobby karting rec autos is intended to capture discussion on all other automotive topics crossposting crossposting occurs when more than one newsgroup name is included on the newsgroups line in the article header such articles will appear in all of the newsgroups listed crossposting is one of the most misunderstood and misused facilities on usenet you should only post to a group because you feel an article is appropriate you should never crosspost just to reach a particular audience this distinction is subtle but important radar detector articles for example are more or less appropriate in rec autos they are almost never appropriate in sci electronics or rec ham radio and the fact that you might want to reach the audience in sci electronics or rec ham radio is not adequate justification for posting to either group crossposting between any or all of the rec autos groups is usually inappropriate if you find yourself doing so consider whether or not it is truly advisable before sending your article consider setting followup to to point to only one newsgroup if you feel you must crosspost crossposting between rec autos and misc consumers is chancy at best in particular flame wars over the speed limit in the us and or the use of radar detectors should never be crossposted between any of these groups most readers of sci electronics and rec radio couldn t care less about the police radar and radar detector arguments that go on endlessly in rec autos it is an excellent idea to check the newsgroups and followup to lines of articles before posting a followup in particular be wary of posting to misc test rec arts startrek or talk bizarre or any combination of these three the life you save may be your own distribution there is a field in the header of any news article which allows you to partially control where the article goes it is called the distribution field it may be very useful for many reasons it should also serve as a reminder that news is a very large and widespread system the distribution of rec autos is fairly extensive as of this writing the automotive newsgroups are known to reach most of europe australia new zealand and some locations in japan with this in mind i offer the following hints about use of the distribution field in your article headers and on article content please take care not to send for sale ads about clapped out ford mavericks in new jersey to france or california i doubt that anyone in either place will care except for my girlfriend who for some strange reason likes mavericks but only door mavericks at that when posting technical questions please include the market for which your car was manufactured for example there are a number of differences between a european market ford escort and a us market escort likewise all cc and early cc alfa romeos reached the us with spica fuel injection european market cars usually got carbs often webers these differences can be important to your readers make your situation clear failure to do so can lead to pointless flame wars and a significant spread of misinformation be careful about your capacities and specifications when posting in the us we get a mix of metric and english system values whereas europe is almost entirely on the metric system a future edition of this monthly posting will contain a list of commonly used abbreviations that may not be known in some places that rec autos reaches this cuts both ways so let us not be parochial about it use the distribution field to limit where your article goes when possible within north america the values na north america can canada and usa may be used in addition the two letter state abbreviations of the us are supported in some cases e g if i wanted to send an article only to new york and new jersey i could put ny nj in a distribution field note that multiple comma separated values are legal these distribution fields vary widely however so you should check with your local sysadmin to find out what is likely to be supported in your area the dangers of overgeneralization to amplify a warning from the distribution section of this article be wary of making foolish assumptions about all cars tires etc what is true for a buick with a cid engine may be quite utterly wrong for a honda with a cc engine headlight laws in sweden are decidedly different from those in idaho the need for adequate specification when you ask a question please give a reasonable amount of information e g if you have a question about your honda please specify year model engine size etc otherwise most answers to your question may be quite useless concerning lemons at one time or another every auto manufacturer has manufactured a lemon or two even honda admits to this please don t waste everyone s time by announcing to the world that your brand x automobile is terrible so all brand x automobiles are terrible so no one should ever buy a car from the brand x company such articles are worse than useless because they cause substantial wasted bandwidth while carrying little or no useful information concerning flames as much as we might wish it a flame free newsgroup is something that most likely will never occur here are some guidelines for flames and how to deal with them a list of flame prone topics follows in the next section of this posting if you post something truly obnoxious and inflammatory don t imagine for a minute that including the words no flames will work it won t and you ll get exactly what you deserve if you re going to flame you re more likely to get away with it if you can cite a fact or maybe a well known reference no one is likely to believe bald unsupported assertions be careful about who you choose to insult consider not insulting anyone asking the question it is a bad idea to post a question and end it with a phrase like please send email i don t read this group it is a much better idea to end the question with please send email if there is sufficient interest i ll summarize the results in a later posting i may miss posted responses to this request answering the question if someone wants to hop up their yugo don t tell them to get a mustang either be silent or give them useful advice if someone wants advice on defending a speeding ticket don t tell them to obey the law next time it s offensive presumes guilt which is not proven and doesn t directly address the original question in general don t post in order to see your words in print and don t post in order to enjoy feeling smug and self righteous stale and or inflammatory topics certain topics are considered stale by old timers while discussion of them is certainly ok and new factual information is welcome ravings about them are extremely tiresome and may get the person who posts them ignored altogether some topics are naturally inflammatory it is difficult if not impossible to have meaningful discussion of them some of these topics include the following the mph speed limit in the us pro and con discussions about the morality and legality of the sale and usage of radar detectors discussions over which radar detector is best discussions over what is a sports car this is one reason why rec autos sport is not a sports car group everyone would argue about what constitutes a sports car disputes over whether or not us federal law protects the driver s right to own and operate a radar detector buy american discussions clever bumper stickers and personalized license plates insert nationality here cars are terrible what kind of car did maxwell smart drive when i have a complete accurate answer it will be added to the commonly asked questions article which is also posted monthly until then please don t waste bandwidth on this topic rpw please direct comments and suggestions about this article to welty cabot balltown cma com richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	rec autos frequently asked consumer automotive questions archive name rec autos part this article is one of a pair of articles containing commonly asked automotive questions the other article contains questions more geared to the automotive enthusiast and so is not crossposted to misc consumers rpw changes as of april revised brake fluid section as non silicone dot fluids are now apparently available rpw commonly asked automotive questions tire questions q what do the funny numbers on the sides of my tires mean a typically you will see something like hr the is the overall width of the tire in millimeters the tread is usually narrower the is the aspect ratio it indicates the height of the sidewall of the tire relative to the overall width our example tire has a sidewall height of mm the is the wheel diameter in inches there are also some special tires called trx tires which have three digit metric wheel diameter designations like which is in millimeters the r means radial and the h is a speed rating indicating the highest speed at which the tire when properly inflated and carrying an appropriate load may safely operate common speed ratings are s mph t mph h mph and v up to mph recent changes to the method for specifying tire sizes move the speed rating to a different part of the designation you may therefore find designations like r h the indicates the per tire load associated with the speed rating exceeding this load in continuous operation at the rated speed is dangerous practice what follows is a table showing a number of load indices and corresponding maximum per tire loads load index max load kg note that the usual mass vs weight confusion occurs in this table in some cases the letters p or lt may be found in front of a tire size the lt designation indicates light truck and the p designation indicates passenger car if no letter is given then the application of the tire is passenger car usage as far as i know these letters only appear in the us market the lt designation is prinicipally of interest to owners of light trucks and other utility vehicles for the owner of a passenger vehicle there is no meaningful difference between a tire with a p designation and one with no designation at all if the aspect ratio is omitted it is probably but may be tires with an ms mud snow designation may have their speed rating reduced by km h about mph there is an additional set of ratings on tires for temperature traction and treadwear temperature and traction are graded a b and c with a the best and c the worst treadwear is a numeric rating these values are of limited value as they are assigned somewhat arbitrarily by tire manufacturers and are thus not useful in comparing different brands of tires q my car has tires with a funny size designation hr can i put normal tires on the car a your tires are called trx tires they were devised by michelin because of a somewhat different bead design they are incompatible with normal tires michelin used a different diameter wheel for them so that they could not be mounted on the wrong type wheel and so that more conventional tires could not be mounted on trx type wheels you will need to aquire different wheels to put a normal tire on your car it is barely possible to fit normal tires on trx wheels and horribly dangerous to do so the tires may simply peel off the rims in a corner or possibly blow out at high speed trx type tires are becoming hard to find in addition to michelin avon makes suitable tires goodyear has apparently discontinued their line of trx tires q can i rotate radials from side to side or rotate them only on one side of my car a car and tire manufacturers have differing views on this subject many say that swapping radials between the left and right hand sides of a car is now ok this group includes michelin and goodyear others for example pirelli and nokia will void warranties if such swapping is done the best advice is to read your tire manual carefully before rotating your tires and stick to the manufacturer s recommendations q how many snow tires should i buy and if i buy which end of the car should i put them on a in short and both ends to explain many drivers in areas that don t get excessive snow or who don t drive agressively or at all in snow conditions get away with only two snows on the drive wheels but there are circumstances where this can be dangerous practice with a rear wheel drive car you can choose between being able to start the car going a function of the rear axle or stopping and turning the car a function of the front axle in a front wheel drive car you start stop and turn with the front end the primary risk of putting the snow tires on the front only is that if you have to put on the brakes while going downhill you run a serious risk of going downhill backwards radar detectors and speed limits q why aren t there any comments on radar detectors and speed limits in this q a posting a because questions about detectors and speed limits crossposted between misc consumers and rec autos always start long tedious and pointless flame wars if you want to talk about either of these topics please subscribe to rec autos or alt flame and keep it there safety equipment q do airbags really work a preliminary statistics suggest the following airbags work much better than no belts good point belts alone work much better than airbags alone and airbags point belts work slightly better than point belts alone the con to airbags is that some designs tend to burn the driver s hands when venting the byproducts of the explosion that occurs inside the bag and that some designs but not all may knock the driver s hands from the wheel making retention of control of the vehicle after the bag deflates more difficult brake questions q do i always need to get the rotors on my disk brakes turned midas always wants to do this a no there are specific conditions that mandate turning or replacing rotors some shops try and make a little extra money by replacing rotors more often than is strictly necessary if the rotors are not warped warped and only lightly grooved then there is no need to replace or to turn them note also that some rotors the rotors on many hondas are a good example are so narrow to begin with that it is not practical to turn them they must be replaced when they become too thin warped or badly grooved q they tell me i should downshift when braking to slow my car down is this really a good idea a it used to be a very good idea back in the days of mediocre fade prone drum brakes in modern disc brake equipped cars use of downshifting to slow the car is not really necessary except in cases of long steep downhill runs otherwise modern disc brakes are more than adequate to stop a passenger car in all circumstances and they are much cheaper to repair than clutch linings on the other hand many standard driver s license tests in the usa still specify that the driver being tested downshift under braking i suggest that before taking a us driver s test you either learn to do this smoothly which takes some time and practice or borrow a car with an automatic to take the test q how often should i replace my brake fluid a probably more often than you do traditional brake fluids tend to absorb water this water can corrode internal parts of the brake system and also lower the boiling point of the fluid dot type are older fluids dot and dot are newer specifications the principal differences are in wet and dry boiling points the dry boiling point is important in fresh brake fluid but the wet boiling point is important in older brake fluid dot fluids have the lowest wet and dry boiling point requirements dot fluids have better boiling point requirements and dot fluids have the best boiling point requirements but dot fluids are not clearly superior see the next q a for more details while the requirements imply that dot fluids are better than dot fluids there may be specific cases where a dot fluid is preferable but these are mostly competition applications otherwise dot type fluids offer much improved brake pedal feel replacement once a year is recommended for dot fluids although agressive drivers may profit by changing out fluid more frequently or at least bleeding a modest amount of fluid out of the brake calipers fairly regularly q what about dot brake fluids a this breaks down in to two parts the dot specification looks excellent for performance but the first dot fluids were silicone based silicone fluids are a tricky proposition unlike dot and dot fluids they do not absorb water at all while this may sound like a feature the problem is that any water present pools up in such systems interfering with braking performance and corroding any metals at the spot where the pooling is occuring the water will tend to migrate downwards in the braking system to the brake calipers where most of the corrosion occurs because of this phenomenon it is essential when converting to silicone to empty the entire brake system and flush it throughly beforehand some even recommend replacing all rubber parts in the brake system when converting to silicone fluids two other issues that come up with silicone fluids they are difficult to pour cleanly that is without air bubbles which interferes with getting a good brake pedal feel and while they generally have much higher boiling points than dot fluids they do have high temperature failure modes which are indistinguishable in effect from boiling dot fluids silicone fluids may make sense in some street car applications but they are certainly not recommended for high performance driving applications and the economics are questionable for street use i have recently become aware of new fluids that meet the dot standard that do not contain silicones these fluids appear to be reasonably compatible with the older dot and dot fluids but i have little information at this time q abs is available on some of the cars i m looking at but it costs more is it worth it a this does not have a cut and dried answer therefore this answer will be quite long in order to cover the pros and cons the short answer is that abs costs more both initially and to maintain will generally work better for the average driver that is to say a driver who does not have extensive experience in high performance driving techniques and may require the unlearning of some obsolete braking techniques like pump braking which should be unlearned in any case now for the long answer abs works by monitering the wheels of the car looking for signs of locked brakes it may or may not be able be able to distinguish between the different wheels there are several systems on the market it cannot detect impending lockup which is what you would really want in an ideal world but only the existence of lockup the sensors used vary some of the less well designed sensors are sensitive to tire size and to brake pad material and may cease to function properly if the owner deviates from original equipment or oe equivalent components when the sensors detect lockup the abs system responds by unlocking the brakes either individually or all at once depending on the system if the driver keeps their foot firmly planted the abs will end up cycling between the locked and unlocked states if a sensor existed that could detect impending lockup then we could sit right at that point which is where maximum braking effect is achieved this pulsing can often be felt in the brake pedal as the system cycles the percentage of the time that the brakes are truly engaged is called the duty cycle typically in an abs system this is about on dry pavement a trained driver can beat this duty cycle quite reliably using a technique called threshold braking on wet pavement braking is so chancy that abs will outperform threshold braking nearly every time unfortunately on mud and on snow often maximum braking effect can be acheived with the brakes locked only audi of the manufacturers producing abs equipped cars has seen fit to provide a disable switch for the abs system for this eventuality a particularly important feature of abs is that it preserves steering control this is the case simply because if you are braking near the limit and turn the wheel the abs will release the brakes if it sees steering triggered lockup and back off on the percentage of the time that the brakes are applied braking distances will lengthen accordingly an important caution abs cannot exceed the maximum theoretical braking force in any given situation if you start sliding on glare ice don t expect an abs system to help you out very much the coefficient of friction is not changed by the presence of an abs system in your car as far as maintenence goes in addition to the potential restrictions i ve listed above you have to worry about the following parts costs are much higher the oe master cylinder for my obscure european sedan lists for but the oe master cylinder for the abs equipped version of the same car lists for over most manufacturers explicitly forbid use of dot silicone brake fluids in abs equipped vehicles because of the potential cost of replacement of corroded brake system components regular i suggest annual replacement of brake fluid becomes very important q what about this threshold braking business a normally i d not put this in the consumers q a but recent publicity about a number of accidents involving police drivers in abs equipped chevy caprices suggests that this section is needed here rpw threshold braking is a technique practiced by all serious high performance drivers if made a habit it replaces the stab the pedal and lock em up panic habit entirely and is much to be prefered basically the premise is that tires generate maximum braking force when they have just started to slide but just before the wheels lock up entirely drivers who threshold brake learn to feel what this threshold feels like and learn to search for it and hit it on the application of the brake pedal in many cars you can feel that you are near the threshold when the pedal starts to firm up as you depress it in any case if you can t hear the tires whine just a bit you re not very near the threshold in a car with abs often there is a twinge in the pedal just before the system starts cycling if the driver backs off on the pedal just a tad when the twinge is felt then they are very close to the threshold and they ll probably achieve better stopping distances than if they just punched it and let the abs take over recently there has been a rash of publicity over a number of accidents and one death involving police cars equipped with abs systems the police departments in question quickly blamed the new abs systems but according to autoweek magazine it now seems clear that the problem was a lack of training none of the involved officers had any recent performance driving training there is reason to believe that the drivers reacted to the pulsing brake pedal by pump braking an old and discredited technique of stabbing and releasing the brake pedal the goal being to try and get brakes back with a failing hydraulic system if you think about it for a minute you ll realize that pump braking must cut the effective operation of a working brake system by at least so if you cut the duty cycle of an abs system by that much you are giving up most of your brakes for the wrong reason threshold braking has the advantage in that it is an effective and useful technique regardless of whether your car has abs if you do fear a failed hydraulic system then one or two stabs at the pedal will be sufficient gas questions q does high octane gasoline help a maybe maybe not some cars have knock sensors and can adjust the engine timing or turbocharger boost to suit the gasoline being used on most cars however you should use the cheapest gas that makes your car run well check your owner s manual for details on what your car needs q my car was made for leaded gasoline will unleaded gas hurt it a it is possible that unleaded gas may slightly increase valve wear although the amoco oil company argues otherwise the actual increase in valve wear will be almost unnoticeable however as modern leaded gasolines actually contain very little lead you should however check your owner s manual many cars from the early s do not actually require leaded gasoline q do fuel treatments help what kind should i use a some do and some don t during the winter it is a good idea to use dry gas however some may be harmful to fuel injection systems never use an additive containing methanol sometimes called methyl alcohol such additives may damage fuel systems in cars with carbs and almost certainly will damage cars with fuel injection manufacturer s opinions vary on additives containing ethanol sometimes called ethyl alcohol if your car has fuel injection check the owner s manual on your car before using these most manufacturers consider ethanol acceptable in gasoline additives with isopropyl alcohol isopropanol and petroleum distillates are fine in fuel injected cars an occasional bottle of fuel injector cleaner is helpful in cars with fuel injectors although many premium gasolines contain detergents that do the same job some off brands of fuel injector cleaners contain ethanol or methanol always check the ingredients before putting anything in your gas tank there are a small number of particularly good additives these are noticeably more expensive that the run of the mill ones but work much much better among these are chevron techron redline sl wurth lubrimoly ventil sauber and bg k a bottle of one of these once every six months is highly recommended q what about detergent gasolines a the quality of detergent packages in gasolines varies somewhat bmw has instituted a testing program and gasoline brands which pass this test may advertise that fact stickers indicating passage of the test are now beginning to appear on fuel pumps at gas stations if such gasolines are used then fuel injector cleaners are probably optional beforewarned that while use of bmw approved gasolines will keep a clean engine clean they may not clean a motor with bad valve deposits lubrication questions q what do the numbers and letters in a motor oil designation mean a there are several different items encoded there is a two letter code indicating the type of detergent package that the manufacturer uses in the oil this looks like se sf cd or such the s codes are for gasoline engine applications the c codes are for diesel engine applications the second letter is assigned in sequence as new levels of protection are developed thus sf is considered better than se se is considered better than sd and so forth the more noticeable designation is the oil weight this is either a single number e g weight or a pair of numbers separated by the letter w e g w the latter type is much more commonly used these days and are the only type that most automobile manufacturers specify in operators manuals the first number in the designation w is the apparent viscosity of the oil when it is cold the w stands for winter the second number is the viscosity of the oil when hot there is a trick here the oil doesn t actually get thicker turn from weight to weight as it gets hotter what is actually happening is that when the oil is cold it has the viscosity of a cold weight oil as it gets hotter it doesn t get thin as fast as a w oil would by the time it is up to temperature it has the viscosity of a hot weight oil note that these numbers actually specify ranges of viscosities not all w oils have exactly the same viscosity when cold and not all weight oils have the same viscosity when hot note also that the novel behaviour of multi grade oils is caused by additives and it has been reported that with the sole exception of castrol gtx w oils do not retain their multi grade characteristics well over time w w and w oils work very well though q are quick lube places any good a some do adequate work but there are quite a few incompetent ones out there let the buyer beware watch them while they work make sure that they don t overtorque the oil drain plug and keep your hand on your wallet at all times q are oil additives like slick or tufoil any good a slick and tufoil are ptfe based additives many of these have come onto the market recently they are different from the moly based additives that have been around since the early s ptfe is the chemical name for teflon tm a trademark owned by dupont in general auto manufacturers do not recommend use of these products most usenet responses to questions on these additives are favorable slight increase of mpg after application smoother revving but long term results whether ptfe additives are effective after k miles are debatable some manufacturers such as saab claim that either the product or the engine flush that preceeds application causes deterioration of the oil seals and eventual leakage some bmw owners have reported death of valve seals shortly after the addition of slick to their cars this writer has been cautioned by a slick dealer that slick should not be used in japanese motors as it may clog the oil return passages in the engine otherwise there are no known reports of damage caused by ptfe additives on the other hand there are satified slick customers in the world q do synthetic oils really work a yes but more specifically most auto manufactuers accept synthetics but disagree with the extremely long oil change intervals claimed by oil manufacturers auto manufacturers recommend that you continue to change oil at the intervals recommended in the owners manual for your car even if you decide to try the longer intervals at least change the oil filter at regular intervals as synthetics get just as dirty as conventional oils synthetic gear lubricants for manual transmissions are another matter entirely amsoil redline and agip are very highly regarded and very effective mobil synthetic gear lube gets mixed reviews however q manufacturers are specifying longer and longer oil change intervals how often should i change my oil a it depends on how you drive if your car always or nearly always gets warmed up and you don t drive it very hard and keep the revs down the manufacturer s recommendation is probably fine if however you drive it hard drive it at high revs or alternatively if you only drive it to and from the supermarket so that it doesn t get up to temperature then you may wish to change oil much more often perhaps at mile intervals given that most manufacturers are now specifying mile intervals if you don t drive your car much at all say miles a year then you probably want to change oil every six months anyway if you are storing a car during the winter then change oil before storing it and change oil when you bring it out of storage misc questions q my car has a timing belt i hear that bad things happen when they break what s the story a it depends on the internal design of the motor early ford escorts for example will suffer severe valve damage if the belt breaks but the newer cars will just require a tow and installation of a new belt some honda motors will not be damaged but others will be if no replacement interval is specified for your car then change the belt at least every miles some cars may require more frequent replacement ask your dealer or independent mechanic also ask if there are any related repairs that should take place at the same time for example the same ford escorts that suffer valve damage also have a timing belt driven water pump which has been known to seize destroying the timing belt and which then causes major valve damage as a side effect replacing the timing belt while ignoring the water pump can be a costly mistake q why would anyone be stupid enough to design a motor so that it self destructs when the timing belt breaks a for performance reasons compromising piston design so that the valves and pistons will not collide requires that the compression ratio of the engine be reduced significantly this is why you are more likely to avoid valve damage in economy cars than in performance oriented vehicles q what causes unintended acceleration a the final report of the national highway transportation and safety administration concluded that unintended acceleration could not be caused by any mechanical failure of the vehicle in question and at the same time be consistent with the physical evidence the nhtsa report goes on to conclude that pedal misapplication by the vehicle operator is probably the cause richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	re warning please read unfortunately i ve got another story to add to this my girlfriend and i were driving through west l a and got pelted by a rock just as we were pulling away from a stoplight the scary thing was that the rock was heavy enough to put a decent sized dent in the door of my riviera which is pretty much solid detriot iron couple of inches higher and it would have gone through the window chris chris barrus chrisb lynx ps uci edu kallista aol com buick riviera boattail peace through superior automotive power sacred cows make the best hamburger abbie hoffman
rec.autos	militech i saw an interesting product in ny auto show and would like to hear your comments militech tm is yet another oil additive but the demonstration of this product really impressive if it didn t cheat the setup of the demo is fairly simple a cone shaped rotor is half submerged in a small oil sink filled with motor oil the rotor is powered by an electronic motor a metal pad is pressed against the rotor using the torque wrench until the rotor stopped by friction the torque that is needed to stop rotor is read from the torque wrench before militech was added the rotor was stopped with about lb ft of torque you pick the brand of oil no difference once militech was added to the oil the rotor could not be stopped even with lb ft of torque here is the good part even after the salesman emptied the oil sink you still could not stopped the rotor with the thin film remained on it they say you need only add oz per quart of oil every k miles a oz bottle is i still have my doubts if this product is really so great why it was so little known the salesman said it is widely used in military i didn t believe it the demo was so impressive that i bought a bottle against my common sense has anyone heard of or actually used this product is it real if you are going to the auto show please visit this stand on the second floor see if can find out if the demo is a hoax or not jason chen
rec.autos	re ford sho engine parts w will not do work on internal engine components of the sho engine this w w good thing too w w at about k miles my cam sensor went south different ford w dealers tried or different fixes none of which worked finally w i took it down the street to the local mechanic this guy reads the w code off the engine computer says bad cam sensor and fixes it in w an hour a friend of mine had some sensors damaged by flood waters ford denys any sensors are registering bad he and his father did the short a circut via paper clip method not sure of the exact technique and read the codes off the service engine light flashes generated from this came up with the damaged sensors went back to ford and told them what was wrong they fixed the car after that what a bunch of bozos the cutting edge bbs cutting hou tx us a pcboard a system houston texas usa running uupcb
rec.autos	rec autos automotive mailing lists archive name rec autos part automotive mailing lists electronic mail that is last updated new lotus exotic cars list subscription info added portland or motorsports list corvair list triumph tr list rpw there are a number of electronic mailing lists on the network devoted to various special automotive topics to the best of my knowledge all the lists appearing here have open membership policies it is my policy not to list closed mailing lists here most mailing lists provide separate addresses for administrative queries and for general mail where separate administrative addresses exist i have listed those below as the general addresses are not appropriate for inquirys and requests audi send requests to quattro request aries east sun com autocross solo send requests to autox request hoosier cs utah edu bmw send requests to bmw request balltown cma com both regular and digest forms available british cars send requests to british cars request hoosier cs utah edu buick grand national regal gnx send requests to gnttype request srvsn monsanto com camaro firebird gm f body send requests to f body request boogie ebay sun com corvair send requests to bryan pegasus mitre org corvettes there are two lists the first is more of a competition oriented list and the second is more general in nature or so i am told competition send requests to vettes request cimage com general send requests to vettes request compaq com datsun fairlady roadsters send requests to datsun roadsters request hoosier cs utah edu dodge stealth mitsubishi gt send requests to stealth req jim uucp wupost wustl edu eclipse talon laser send requests to diginst talon request radius com electric vehicles send requests to info ev request ymir claremont edu exotic cars send requests to exotic cars request sol asl hitachi com fabrication race cars send requests to racefab request pms pms ford com international harvester discussion of scouts pickups etc send requests to ihc request balltown cma com italian cars send requests to italian cars request balltown cma com both regular and digest forms available hondas listserv brownvm brown edu use standard listserv subscription procedure the mail message body to listserv should be sub honda l your real name with no subject line in the header hot rods send requests to hotrod request dixie com land rovers send requests to land rover owner request stratus com lotus send requests to lotus cars request netcom com mazdas send requests to mazda list request ms uky edu miata listserv jhunix hcf jhu edu use standard listserv subscription procedure the mail message body to listserv should be sub miata your real name with no subject line in the header merkurs send requests to merkur request pcad uucp mopar mostly high performance chrysler dodge plymouth products send requests to mopar casbah acns nwu edu mr send requests to mr interest request validgh com mustangs there are two lists the first is for mustangs through the second for mustangs from on nobody cares about the mustang ii so don t ask classic send requests to classic mustangs request hpfctjc fc hp com modern send requests to mustangs request cup hp com offroad x send requests to offroad request ai gtri gatech edu porsches send requests to porschephiles request tta com portland oregon motorsports activities send requests to pdxracer request reed edu rally send requests to rally request stratus com rx send requests to jjn cblpf att com saabs send requests to saab network mhs compuserve com saturn send requests to saturn request oar net school high performance driving schools send requests to school request balltown cma com sentra se r g n send requests to se r request pencom com supras send requests to supras request vicor com toyota send requests to toyota request quack sac ca us triumph tr v tr send requests to jtc ccwf cc utexas edu volvos requests to swedishbricks request me rochester edu wheel to wheel racing forum for race drivers workers crew and wannabes send requests to wheeltowheel request abingdon sun com z cars nissan datsun send requests to z car request dixie com richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	rec autos the rec autos archive server archive name rec autos part the automotive articles archive server the automotive archive server is in the process of being rehosted and is presently not available richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	rec autos frequently asked questions archive name rec autos part this article is one of a pair of articles containing commonly asked automotive questions the other article contains questions of general consumer interest and is broken out to facilitate crossposting to misc consumers rpw last change february ct now permits radar detector usage new tire traction q a rpw commonly asked questions radar questions q where are radar detectors illegal a in the us currently virgina and the district of columbia prohibit all usage of radar detectors new york prohibits their use in large trucks in canada they are illegal in manitoba ontario quebec newfoundland and pei prince edward island they are apparently are illegal through most if not all of europe legislation which would make them illegal is pending in many other jurisdictions chances of such legislation passing varies a great deal q where are radar detector detectors used do they really work a usage is spreading rapidly initially they were used only in canada but now they are appearing in new york and virginia it is unsafe to assume that they are not in use in connecticut and d c they work by detecting a certain frequency radiated by many currently available super het radar detectors some brands of detector radiate more strongly than others and are thus more likely to be spotted new radar detectors are becoming available which may not be detected by the current generation of detector detectors note that a detector may only be spotted by one of these devices if it is turned on q what is vascar is it some kind of radar a vascar is nothing more than a fancy stopwatch and time speed distance computer it depends on the operator pressing buttons as the target vehicle passes landmarks no radar signals are emitted by a vascar system q what is ka band radar where is it used should a radar detector be able to handle it a ka band has recently been made available by the fcc for use in the us in so called photo radar installations in these installations a low powered beam is aimed across the road at a degree angle to the direction of traffic and a picture is taken of vehicles which the radar unit determines to have been in violation of the speed limit tickets are mailed to the owner of the vehicle because of the low power and the degree angle many people believe that a radar detector cannot give reasonable warning of a ka band radar unit although some manufacturers of radar detectors have added such capability anyway the number of locales where photo radar is in use is limited and some question the legality of such units best advice learn what photo radar units look like and keep track of where they are used or else don t speed q do radar jammers work are they legal a quick answer no and not in the usa detailed answer cheap radar jammers do not work well at all jammers that work are expensive and usually the property of the military jammers are a major violation of the regulations of the federal communications commission of the usa driving technique and vehicle dynamics questions q what are understeer and oversteer a understeer and oversteer are terms describing the behaviour of a car while cornering near the limit limit of adhesion that is most drivers do not normally drive hard enough for these terms to be descriptive of the situations they encounter simply put they tell whether the car wants to go straight in a corner steer less or understeer or it wants to turn more in a corner oversteer understeer is commonly designed into most production cars so that untrained drivers inadvertantly traveling too fast won t get into trouble understeer may also be induced by using too much throttle in a corner oversteer is designed into some more performance oriented cars it may be induced by lifting on the throttle trailing throttle oversteer or tto in extreme cases lifting on the throttle may induce so much oversteer that the car reacts by fishtailing or spinning some technical details in a corner at speed the tires on the car will develop what are called slip angles the slip angle is the angular difference between the direction that the car is traveling and the direction that the steering wheel is directing the car to travel in understeer the front wheels have a greater slip angle than the rear wheels in oversteer the rear wheels have a greater slip angle than the front wheels q what is a rev matched downshift a when downshifting the engine must be rotating faster in the lower gear than it was in the higher gear however during a downshift normally you declutch and lift your foot from the throttle so the revs drop rather than increase in rev matched downshift you blip the throttle before re engaging the clutch so that the engine will already be up to the new speed this results in a much smoother and faster downshift q what does heel and toe mean a heel and toe is a technique used to do a rev matched downshift while braking this is normally challenging because you need the right foot for both the brake and throttle it is called heel and toe because you use one end of the foot on the brake and the other on the throttle to match revs for the downshift in many modern cars this is a misnomer often you must use the ball of the foot on the brake and the right side on the throttle note that some race car drivers will skip the clutch and just use the left foot on the brake and the right foot on the throttle accomplishing the same thing q what is double clutch downshifting a while your right foot is doing the above your left foot can do one of three things nothing declutch once or declutch twice the reason for declutching twice is to match the speeds of the two shafts in the transmission to the speed of the engine this is usually coupled with rev matching so that while the engine is in neutral and the clutch engaged the throttle is blipped and both shafts of the transmission speed up the procedure is as follows declutch move gearshift lever to neutral engage clutch match revs declutch move gearshift lever to next lower gear engage clutch this sounds like a lot of work but with practice it becomes natural the problem that double clutching solves is normally the function of the synchronizers within the gearbox in transmissions without synchros or with very worn synchros double clutching makes it much easier to shift basically if you double clutch well you are not using the synchros at all this is generally unnecessary on street cars with synchros in good condition q what do the numbers for acceleration from mile skidpad and slalom times in the auto magazines really mean may they be compared a in short not as much as the magazines want you to believe and almost never in more detail the acceleration numbers mph and mile times in the us may be vaguely compared as long as they all come from the same source testing procedures vary so much from magazine to magazine that comparing a road track number to a car driver number is quite pointless keep in mind too that the same variation applies from driver to driver on the street the driver is a major often the major part of the equation skidpads vary and even if they didn t skidpad figures are really only tests of the stickiness of the stock tires they change radically when tire compounds change do not make any assumptions about the comparative handling of say two sports sedans based on skidpad numbers this is not to suggest that skidpads are without value however skidpads are an excellent educational tool at driving schools they are simply of limited value in the comparison of anything except tires slalom times are slightly more useful they test some small parts of the automobile s transient response however they are also heavily influenced by the stock rubber on the car and they do not test many corners of the car s envelope they do not tell you all you need to know before making a buying decision for example they don t tell you what the rear end of the car will do on a road which suddenly goes off camber when a car has an adjustable suspension these tests are usually done in the sport setting which may be quite unsuitable for daily driving the list of caveats could go on for page after page q my buddy claims that wide tires don t make any difference according to his freshman physics textbook and that you can t ever accelerate or corner at more than g does he know what he s talking about a in short he hasn t got a clue in more detail the equations for friction used in freshman physics textbooks presume that the surfaces are smooth dry and non deformable none of which properly apply to tire traction except in the case of a stone cold tire on dry pavement which is far below its proper operating temperature pavement is never smooth it is always irregular to a greater or lesser extent tires which are not really dry and solid as rubber is a substance which in its natural form is liquid and which has only been coerced into a semblance of solidity by chemical magic deform to match the surface of the pavement which a vehicle is traveling over in a tire at operating temperature grip is actually generated by shear stresses inside the deformed rubber and not by anything even remotely resembling friction in the freshman physics sense of the term the colder a tire is relative to its operating temperature the closer its behaviour will be to the traditional concept of friction if much hotter than the its proper operating temperature the more likely the possibility of some part of the tire actually reverting to liquid which is mostly like to happen deep in the tread causing characteristic blisters and chunking this latter though is almost completely unlikely to happen in normal street driving so unless you re a competition driver or do a lot of high speed track driving don t worry about it because tire traction is completely out of the domain of simple friction it does not obey the freshman physics equation at all thus dragsters accelerate at more than g and race cars corner and brake at more than g because simple friction does not apply it is actually possible for different sized contact patches to generate differing amounts of grip an actual analysis of tire behavior would require techniques such as finite element analysis due to the complexity of the mechanism misc questions q what does name or acronym stand for a here is a list of some of the names which are commonly asked about be careful in soliciting the meanings of other names as misinformation abounds on the net in particular never ask in rec humor if you want a useful result saab svenska aeroplan a b or the swedish airplane corporation alfa societa anonima lombarda fabbrica automobili or the lombardy automobile manufacturing company fiat fabbrica italiana di automobili torino or the italian automobile manufacturers of turin bmw bayerische motoren werke or bavarian motor works mg morris garage q does vw own porsche a no porsche is a publicly held company controlled by the porsche and piech families porsche has extensive business dealings with vw audi which causes some confusion since currently porsche is in some financial difficulty there is a possibility that mercedes or vw may be interested in purchasing the company in the near future but this is only speculation at this time richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	rec autos automotive mailing lists how to set up your own archive name rec autos part new article as of february rpw many people want to set up mailing lists for their favorite automotive topics rather fewer know how to do it this article will provide the essential information for doing so on standard unix systems a shell script and examples of alias file setups are included which presently run on a sparc here at balltown cma com for a number of mailing lists note that if you do set up an automotive mailing list please let me know of the request address so that i can list it in the montly rec autos posting also inform the keeper of the usenet list of lists check news answers for this monthly posting first of all to get anywhere you need to either be a sysadmin or have some measure of assistance from your sysadmin it is also important that you have reasonably good network connectivity if it seems like you get everything several days after anyone else or that you have trouble getting email through then your network connectivity is probably not good enough listserv there is a handy automated mailing list package named listserv which is available from several ftp servers on the network details of the installation and operation of listserv are beyond the scope of this article but anyone who is considering running a large mailing list should probably look at listserv carefully the alias file on a typical unix system there is a file named usr lib aliases on whichever file server is your mail host it contains lines such as foo bar baz bletch which means that any email sent the name foo on that host is redistributed to users bar baz and bletch thus the simplest possible email list is my favorite car member member member my address my favorite car request my address this has a couple of problems the most noticeable one being that you have to be superuser to edit the alias file however you can do the following with the connivance of your sysadmin my favorite car include home mydir misc autos my favorite car list my favorite car request my address where the file specified is a list of comma and newline separated addresses this file can be in the list admin s home directory owned by the list admin bounced mail this still has a problem bounced mail usually gets distributed to all the members of the list which is generally considered somewhat irritating therefore the way that the driving school mailing list is set up is instructive thanks to harpal chohan of the bmw list for this setup by the way i m not sure where he got it from school request welty school rebroadcast include home newwelty misc autos school list school usr local adm bin explscript school owner school school request owner school out school request here s what is going on here the owner and request addresses are intended as traps for bounced mail coming from the network the request address also serves as the point of contact for administrative duties school is what people send mail to instead of pointing at addresses it points at a shell script which rewrites headers before resending the email school broadcast of which nobody except me knows the name the name has been changed here to protect my own sanity points at the actual list members the shell script i use is as follows bin sh cd tmp sed e reply to d e sender d e from d echo reply to balltown cma com echo errors to request balltown cma com echo sender request balltown cma com cat usr lib sendmail om f request balltown cma com f the mailing list rebroadcast exit note that this script does not know the name of the list the name is passed in from outside so that the script may be used for multiple lists i run several out of this site the script excises reply to sender and from lines from the incoming message substitutes for sender and reply to and adds errors to of all email bounce messages end up being sent to the request or owner addresses if this header rewrite is done for digested lists there is some digestification software around hopefully i ll be able to provide more information in a future version of this posting richard welty welty balltown cma com richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article qa wichitaks ncr com jhart qa wichitaks ncr com jim hart writes in article mar uncavx unca edu bwillard uncavx unca edu writes my top list of dumbest automotive concepts ever dodge colt vista tachometer only avail with automatic trans back up lights on corvette they re on the sides of the car sure would be interested to know what year s this was i don t seem to recall any car with back up lights on the sides much less any corvette i suppose i could be mis interpreting what you are trying to say here just a quick comment backup lights mounted on the side would actually be extremely useful for people backing out of parking stalls regards charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	re warning please read this is a two sided problem unfortunately our culture has been deteriorating over time the breeding of these low life s is getting worse our justice system is at best extremely weak to handle these problems that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is imminent my camaro my pride and joy got stolen right out of my driveway a few years back the persons that did that were eventually caught lucky for me but not before having trashed the car on another occasion on my way from texas to florida i had stopped in a small motel for the night in a small town somewhere in florida about youths were disturbing my car setting off the alarm and challenging me to come out when i and another tenant walked out with a magnum and a automatic respectively they vanished needless to say i immediately packed up and left watch out for car jacking and staged accidents they can be deadly steve heracleous
rec.autos	re warning please read ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low you make it sound like this behavior is new it isn t a lot of pedestrian bridges have fencing that curls up over the sidewalk to make this kind of think a lot harder to do i don t understand the mentality myself but then again i couldn t figure out move i m glad they bombed em or the waco wackos either newsgroup list trimmed significantly jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr colorado edu drew kinglear cs colorado edu drew eckhardt writes most cars have drain petcocks in the radiators and i ve never seen nor heard of a vandal opening one i imagine that there would be an even lower risk with an oil plug because you have to crawl furthur under the car to open it car vandals are usually real traditional in their methods and do things that don t get them dirty like keying your car dumping sand sugar or mothballs in the gas tank tping it etc usually go enough places and you ll see stuff happen you didn t think did steve
rec.autos	re mazda rx parts jc whitney their number is they are based in chicago il in case you need to call dir assistance their prices are more down to earth than any other source for car innards outers they will send you a free catalog neeraj
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes my top list of dumbest automotive concepts ever back up lights on corvette they re on the sides of the car sure would be interested to know what year s this was i don t seem to recall any car with back up lights on the sides much less any corvette i suppose i could be mis interpreting what you are trying to say here just a quick comment backup lights mounted on the side would actually be extremely useful for people backing out of parking stalls while i can t think of any corvettes with side mounted backup lights i know that saab started using them about years ago my saab didn t have them but a friend s saab certainly did in addition to the confentional tail light mounted backup lights they had another set integrated into the front turn signal assembly for those of you who don t remember saabs of that vintage had an enormous multicoloured plastic growth about the size of a national geographic magazine sticking out of the front fender which incorporated amber parking lights amber side marker lights reflectors white cornering lamps like american luxury cars aimed towards the side of the road when you have your turn indicators on and white backup lights aimed towards the back of the car when you have selected reverse gear the glossy brochure showed how these front mounted backup lights were useful for illuminating hazards pot holes kid s toys etc that would be run over by the front of the car if you had the wheels turned while backing up mart l molle computer systems research institute university of toronto toronto canada m s a
rec.autos	re aftermarket a c units in article qcaueinnmt axon cs unc edu andrew brandt writes i looked into getting a c installed on my honda crx si the unit is plus shipping installation is like hours on top of that this is a hunk of change does anyone know any place that does aftermarket a c installation not with a honda a c unit but some third party unit i cannot seem to find anyone who can put a third party a c unit in a honda i am in no carolina so i would prefer some place nearby but any references would be handy thx andy brandt cs unc edu les bartel s comments sorry i can t help you with your question but i do have a comment to make concerning aftermarket a c units i have a frost king or frost temp forget which aftermarket unit on my cavalier and am quite unhappy with it the fan is noisy and doesn t put out much air i will never have an aftermarket a c installed in any of my vehicles again i just can t trust the quality and performance after this experience les les bartel i m going to live forever let me add my in i had a a c installed by the ford garage and it did not work as well as the a c that was installed by the factory in pickups identical to mine i have talked to other people that have had the same result don t know if this is just a probable with ford or what ernie smith
rec.autos	re aftermarket a c units in article qcaueinnmt axon cs unc edu andrew brandt writes i looked into getting a c installed on my honda crx si the unit is plus shipping installation is like hours on top of that this is a hunk of change does anyone know any place that does aftermarket a c installation not with a honda a c unit but some third party unit i cannot seem to find anyone who can put a third party a c unit in a honda i am in no carolina so i would prefer some place nearby but any references would be handy thx andy brandt cs unc edu les bartel s comments sorry i can t help you with your question but i do have a comment to make concerning aftermarket a c units i have a frost king or frost temp forget which aftermarket unit on my cavalier and am quite unhappy with it the fan is noisy and doesn t put out much air i will never have an aftermarket a c installed in any of my vehicles again i just can t trust the quality and performance after this experience les les bartel i m going to live forever let me add my in i had a a c installed by the ford garage and it did not work as well as the a c that was installed by the factory in pickups identical to mine i have talked to other people that have had the same result don t know if this is just a problem with ford or what ernie smith
rec.autos	jeep laredo experiences i have been looking at buying a jeep laredo and was wondering if anyone had any bad or good experiences with this model is it all that much different than the other yjs it looks feels and sounds like a nice vehicle even thought the price is rather steep for an k canadian don bnr ca
rec.autos	re curious about the porsche i drove ak yfn ysu edu albion h bowers writes in a previous article wade nb rockwell com wade guthrie says takaharu mail sas upenn edu taka mizutani writes in article apr progress com damelio progress com stephen d amelio wrote i wrote this is consistent with the pre the engine before that was a litre or less depending on how early you go and got its power at high revs starting slowly at about k and jumping up at around k with a narrow band the was a litre and had a lot of smog equipment if you got much power at all it d be better distributed through the rev range bzzzt wrong answer it really depends on whether you are talking model year or date of manufacture for instance mine was a but was manufactured in august of prior to all s were o liter for the and model years they were liter for the and model years they were liter except for the carerra rs which was a liter the and later years were easily identified by the new mph bumpers most models in the year were lietsr except the carerra rsr which was a liter us carerras from were liter models in they went to liter and there was only a single model the sc think of it as a cross between the s and the carerra models note all the above are based on model year not date of manufacture i stand corrected this is all from memory mind you as for the rev happy behavior the earlier cars are even more prone to this the liter cars used low compression engines and suffered a bit in this regard the early liter and liter engines also got a good dose of smog gear as well the and liter engines were far and away the quickest revvers of the lot yeah that s what i was trying to say no really wade guthrie trying to program on ms dos is like trying wade nb rockwell com to shave with a chain saw me be not speaking for the rock
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr virginia edu ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly a small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks i don t recall if she made it but i think she was comatose for a month or so and doctors weren t holding out hope that she d live what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold society as we have known it it coming apart at the seams the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is no big deal kid s see hundreds on murderous acts on tv we can abort children on demand and kill the sick and old at will so why be surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don t care because the message they hear is life is cheap at
rec.autos	re braindead drivers who don t look ahead hhm cbnewsd cb att com herschel h mayo writes so i block the would be passers not only for my own good but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it as a rule of philosophy i don t feel particularly sorry when somebody gets offed by his own stupidity but it does worry me when some idiot is in a position to cash in my chips too h h mayo zdem a hgo hou amoco com donna martz writes well aren t we just mr altruism himself just what the world needs another frustrated self appointed traffic cop hhm cbnewsd cb att com herschel h mayo writes well if you want to stick the nose of your car up the ass of a foot semi i suppose it s your neck however i m not going to let you kill me in the bargain if you get frustrated by somebody delaying your inevitable death due to less that wise driving practices then tough well i never wrote that i would act as you described i stated that i would not block a would be passer i would not block a would be passer for their own good or for any reason other than i was prevented from doing so due to the traffic circumstance i fail to see how deterring a passer under these circumstance would in any way decrease your chances of being involved in an accident fatal or otherwise in fact i could imagine how blocking a would be passer would actually increase your chances of being offed or involved in an accident especially if this passer is riding your bumper intentionally blocking a person riding your bumper is certainly not a wise driving practice it only causes the jam to become more congested i don t mess with trucks and i actually watch the road ahead and the road behind if i perceive that i am rapidly closing on a pack of vehicles i try to avoid getting caught up in situation such as you decribe usually either traffic is just building and i have to deal with this fact of life or i wait to a slow passer to complete their pass and make way for the pack to clear if someone decides then to pull up on my bumper i signal my intention to move to the right and do so at the first opportunity hope they will open the jam i feel this is not only courteous driving but alot safer than the actions you advocate there are actually many courteous drivers on the road who do not intentionally impede others if someone in front of me seems to be oblivious to the fact that they are blocking traffic i use my blinker or flash my lights or if all else fails will briefly speed up slow down so they might get the message that i am a faster vehicle trying to pass i feel it is never safe to ride anyone s bumper if someone is intentionally blocking traffic because they feel that it is civil duty or philosophic duty or for some unfathomable reason i feel they deserve at the very least derision sorry this is soooooooo long
rec.autos	bmw s new plant in greer sc is anyone reading this message involved with the new bmw plant does bmw corporate even have a net connection desperately seeking info jeff hagen hagenjd ac wfu edu
rec.autos	re warning please read in article qk t dg armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low you make it sound like this behavior is new it isn t a lot of pedestrian bridges have fencing that curls up over the sidewalk to make this kind of think a lot harder to do i don t understand the mentality myself but then again i couldn t figure out move i m glad they bombed em or the waco wackos either i know that this isn t the group for it but since you brought it up does anyone have any idea why they haven t bombed the waco cult just curious newsgroup list trimmed significantly jim frost jimf centerline com larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo v fahrvergnugen forever the fact that i need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn t understand anyway
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes in article qa wichitaks ncr com jhart qa wichitaks ncr com jim hart writes in article mar uncavx unca edu bwillard uncavx unca edu writes my top list of dumbest automotive concepts ever dodge colt vista tachometer only avail with automatic trans back up lights on corvette they re on the sides of the car sure would be interested to know what year s this was i don t seem to recall any car with back up lights on the sides much less any corvette i suppose i could be mis interpreting what you are trying to say here just a quick comment backup lights mounted on the side would actually be extremely useful for people backing out of parking stalls regards charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person wasn t the original intent of the reverse lights for the driver so he could see where he was backing up although reverse lights on the sides are useful for telling whether cars are backing up out perpendicular to the path of the car i don t think warnings were their original intents since they are colored white chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart c quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand
rec.autos	re lois chevrolet a little bit off of the subject but here goes yes he is one in the same i e chevrolet motor div also his brother gaston raced at indy and was the winner in i have also seen the name arthur chevrolet in the early teens and on i assume he is related keith nuetzman nuet ke pts mot com motorola inc paging and wireless data group boynton beach fl see ya at indy and yes
rec.autos	re thinking about buying intrepid good or bad idea i bought an intrepid about two months ago and am very happy with it lots of room inside and even with the smaller engine it has enough power for me the only problem i found was a small selection on the dealer s lots they are hot sellers around here
rec.autos	re changing oil by self ah yes the big chunks down in the sump the solution is simple sort of like the advice my aunt always gave never scratch your ear with anything except your elbow if you have pieces of ring con rods valve heads or stems just reach into the sump through the hole in the block that was associated with the creation of those large bits and pieces anything you can t remove with one hand through the hole in the block may safely be left in place
rec.autos	waxing a new car i have just taken delivery on a new gm car firebird with a clearcoat finish i assume that it is probably urethane since the industry has moved in that direction in paints in years past it used to be recommended that owners wait up to days before you wax a car for the paint to cure the dealer shop manager said this also but i m not sure that he wasn t just basing it on past tradition does anyone know if this is still a recommended practice or is it better to go ahead and wax right away non abrasive new car wax with the newer finishes terry quinn germantown hills il tquinn heartland bradley edu from compuserve internet tquinn heartland bradley edu
rec.autos	tercel sunroof leaks arrggh is there a simple way tooput these sunroofs out of their misery do leaks tend to be from old gaskets or from inadequate mechanical seals or all of the above is there any way to halt the rain thanks hk henry bruno kon office with machine home with machine
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences i don t know if some lemons are out there but from personal experience my brother s has been trouble free not one single repair only regular maintainance the only work he had done on it was a result of his stupidity he stopped suddenly in the middle of a left turn on a busy intersection and was rear ended he has a plymouth sundance i would recomend it but i would also like to say that if you can wait about six months chryco is coming out with a new car called the neon that is built in the same way as the lh s where good luck with your desiscion
rec.autos	clear coat woes is clear coat really worth it yes on the showroom floor the cars have this deep lustrous shine that just can t be found on paint jobs that aren t clear coated on the other hand it seems that every clear coated car that i ve seen on the road in a parking lot etc has fine scratches throughout the paint job as does alas my laser several weeks ago i had my car professionally polished and waxed when i picked it up it had that same showroom shine that i remember from a year ago when i bought it several days ago i took my car to the dealership for some work as an added bonus they washed my car unfortunately whoever washed it either didn t get the roof which is black the rest of the car is red completely clean before he dried it or he used a dirty towel now my showroom shine is a haze of fine scratches that aren t really visible until the light hits the roof at a particular angle i am to put it mildy somewhat peeved about this do i have any chance of getting the dealership to do something about this my guess is no is there any product on the market that provides a solution to this problem or am i faced with the prospect of having the car professionally polished again to hide the scratches information commiseration and sympathy all greatly appreciated scott the dealership will never wash my car again borders sborders nyx cs du edu borders scott tandem com
rec.autos	re chryslers compact lh sedans rmt r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen writes aas po cwru edu writes in a previous article v mcqs ubvmsd cc buffalo edu adam m gandler says i heard chrysler is planning to design or is in the process of designing a compact sedan line based on the lh platform if these were as thought out as the full sized sedans and priced competitively i see no reason why they could not give the imports and even the saturns a serious challenge oh goody we now get to see saturns sold through cryco dealers fab why is it this a hole insist on remarks like this i really am growing tired of this s drew do you have a kill file for your newsreader i put the name spencer in my kill file and that gives me about less articles per day that i have to sift through
rec.autos	i m getting a car i need opinions i have as my budget i m looking for a sports or gt car what do you think would be the best buy i m looking for specific models thanks danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this ip lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting schludermann sscvx ssc gov writes i m wondering if anybody else out there is a clutchless shifter i ve been doing it my self over miles on my current toyota truck i ve got over k i ve heard people talk about how doing this can damage a transmission my experiences suggest otherwise what techniques do you use yeah i don t use the clutch all the time either i ve done it with fords bmw datsun and chevy and it works fine i can t think of any reason that it would damage the tranny essentially you are just doing what the synchros do anyhow match the engine speed with the tranny speed and slip it into gear on some old pieces of junk i drove the transmission was so worn that pumping the clutch was the only way to shift except clutchless to date i ve driven rabbits datsuns comets fords a chevy some where harder than others to shift but generally the higher the milage the smoother quicker easier they where to shift my technique is to ease back off the throttle and at the same time gently wrist back on the shift lever if for some reason i miss the shift window i lightly press the accelerator try agian i ve found that clutchless shifting is eaiser quicker at high rpms i also skip gears some times using sounds about right i usually slip it out during throttle down and then blip the throttle and wait until it feels like things are right usually about a second and then slip it into gear krispy jon you obviously don t know who you re dealing with gross jong halcyon com
rec.autos	re acura integra speed i have a acura integra speed with miles on it it is positively the worst car i have ever owned i had an prelude that had k miles on it when i sold it and it was still going strong this is with religious attention to maintenance such as oil changes etc both cars were driven in exactly the same manner it has gone through two clutches which are underrated sets of tires really eats tires in the front even with careful align all struts started leaking about k miles windshield wiper motor burned up service note on this one seek stop working on radio about k miles two timing belts constant error signals from computer and finally a rod bearing went out on the no piston seriously damaging the crankshaft contaminating the engine etc when the overhaul was done last week it required new crankshaft one new cam shaft has two because the camshaft shattered when they tried to mill it the camshaft took weeks to get because it is on national back order everything on the engine is unique to the year they went to a new design in parts are very expensive no way would i ever buy another acura it is highly overrated
rec.autos	re most bang for k in article apr ns cc lehigh edu rwf ns cc lehigh edu r obert william fusi writes in article uupcb cutting hou tx us david bonds cutting hou tx us d a vid bonds writes in rec autos cpkjp vm cc latech edu kevin parker writes i d like to get some feedback on a car with most bang for the buck in the to price range i m looking for a car with enough civility to b e driven every day or even on long trips but when i hit the gas i want to fe e l take a look at a taurus sho they can be found for k and are the ultimate in door sports cars performance similar to a mustang but quite civil and comfortable try to get a late model for the better shifter the cutting edge bbs cutting hou tx us a pcboard a system houston texas usa running uupcb well you could always go with a mustang lx with a pleasant v but the diamond star cars talon eclipse laser put out hp in the turbo models and hp in the awd turbo models these cars also have handling to match the muscle and are civil in regular driving conditions rather than having a harsh stiff ride the awd turbo is clearly the better choice of the two because of all that torque steer on the front drive model but you may have to go with a leftover or slightly used model for that price range tough decision rob fusi rwf lehigh edu car and driver did a test with the same basic idea and chose the ford probe gt sp of course
rec.autos	re too fast in article shaman wv tek com andrew frip wv tek com andrew klossner wr ites can i ask have any of you been at the speed of it s a rush so is cocaine what s your point andrew klossner andrew frip wv tek com yeah and the cop couldn t catch me
rec.autos	re too fast in article shaman wv tek com andrew frip wv tek com andrew klossner wr ites can i ask have any of you been at the speed of it s a rush so is cocaine what s your point andrew klossner andrew frip wv tek com don t know about the cocaine but
rec.autos	re new alarm proposal in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb co m dan day writes in article qeee o s armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost w rites an audible alarm is just an annoyance to either a professional or amateur nobody listens to audible alarms anymore the thieves know this is why i think there ought to be a heavy fine on false alarms i m really honked off about the fact that due to all the cars with cruddy alarms crying wolf no one will pay any attention to my car if its alarm ever goes off for real depends on your area in the city nobody thinks about it but at a mall or something near the suburbs people do at least glance over remember an alarm is only a deterent not a prevention if a thief sees two cars he likes one has an alarm and the other doesn t he s obviously going to skip the alarmed car and avoid the hassle there is a way around every alarm but at least you ve got something on your side rob fusi rwf lehigh edu
rec.autos	re i m getting a car i need opinions good luck
rec.autos	curious about you please satisfy my curiosity i m interested in finding out who is using the e mail system please do not flood me with mail after april st thanks maria alice ruth mao psuvm bitnet or psuvm psu edu are you male or female how long have you been using the e mail system how do you have access at work at school etc who taught you how to use the system is that person male or female have you helped anyone to learn the system was that person s male or female which net did you find my questions on which other nets are you interested in how often do you read post to the system
rec.autos	toyota land cruiser worth it in response to a post about suv s i got several unsolicited recommendations to check out the land cruiser despite its astronomical price the toyota dealer told me it s a cult car if a car is good enough to create a passionate and loyal following there must be something really extraordinary about it so all you land crusher cultists here is your chance to convert me jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet inc
rec.autos	nx vs sentra se r i m plannig to trade my sentra se r in with a nx my car has miles on it and is a model the nx the dealer is selling is a model with miles on it it has a t bar roof a c and an airbag which my sentra does not have they are asking for is that a fair deal the only thing i noticed about the nx is that the engine did not seem to have as much torque as my sentra which has the same identical engine i presume that the last lady owner did not really push the engine to it s limits occassionaly while i did that on mine thuis the nx s engine is a little tight so if i buy the nx and excercise it well should that slight power problem go away any advice on this will be much appreciated thanks please reply via e mail if possible a motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography ca santa barbara and a foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind is the forerunner of all states
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias writes in article apr virginia edu ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly a small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks i don t recall if she made it but i think she was comatose for a month or so and doctors weren t holding out hope that she d live what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low yes nobody is watching them if they get caught there is no punishment at all in the old days such behaviour would be rewarded with a whipping with a good sized belt and then taken into some hospital to see first hand what kind of damage such accidents cause of course this doesn t happen any more that whipping would probably save the kid s life by teaching him some respect for others a person with that little respect would inevitably wind up dead early anyway the problem is creeping gradualism if you put a frog into hot water he just jumps out but if you put him into cold water and then ever so gradually heat it the frog will cook this is what the entertainment industry and lack of religious moral and educational standards in our modern north american society have done to us over the years now that we are about to be cooked we may have woken up too late erik velapold society as we have known it it coming apart at the seams the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is no big deal kid s see hundreds on murderous acts on tv we can abort children on demand and kill the sick and old at will so why be surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don t care because the message they hear is life is cheap and the education system and the religious leaders aren t doing much about it either with both parents working in this society where is the stabilizing influence at home latchkey children are everywhere and these latchkey kids can watch whatever rotten videos and listen to whatever violent hate promoting music and videos they like because no one is home to stop it this day and age when there is about times more things to learn than when i went to school our answer to this increased knowledge is shorter school hours and more leisure time i say keep the kids in school longer feed them good food and teach them something and when they get home have a parent there to interact and monitor them there is a very old and now forgotten proverb a child left on his own will bring a parent to grief daycare systems are not the answer this is just shifting the parents own responsibilities off on someone else to whom it s not a life long committment but rather just a job at followups should go to alt parents teens fred w bach operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university of british columbia vancouver b c canada v t a these are my opinions which should only make you read think and question they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers
rec.autos	re warning please read in article neilson apr seoul mpr ca neilson seoul mpr ca robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is imminent steve heracleous you do have the power steve you can do it why don t you why don t you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do a good job though don t miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean this last comment was obviously a bit cynical but a true statement of the attitude of some drivers there s your autos content i would say what law abiding not low abiding as above talk about freudian slips citizens have the right and responsibility to do is try to prevent this type of behaviour in children a doctor may have to use deadly force against a part of a body like amputating it when an infection disease has gone too far but his real desire would have been to prevent the disease in the first place or at least nip it in the bud followups should go to alt parents teens fred w bach operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university of british columbia vancouver b c canada v t a these are my opinions which should only make you read think and question they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c joit e bcstec ca boeing com neil bcstec ca boeing com neil williams writes as long as we re on the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding in the front of a toyota pickup heading south on interstate north of seattle wa someone threw a rock of an overpass and hit our windshield not by accident i m sure it was impossible to get up to the overpass quickly to see who did it we figured it was kids reported it and left a couple of years ago it happend again and killed a guy at my company he was in his mid fourties and left behind a wife and children turned out there was a reformatory for juviniles a few blocks away they caught the year old that did it they put a cover over the overpass what else could they do i don t think i ll over forget this story neil williams boeing computer services bellevue wa neil what did they do to the year old who they caught what did the man s insurance company do this could be significant and in any case very interesting followups to alt parents teens fred w bach operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university of british columbia vancouver b c canada v t a these are my opinions which should only make you read think and question they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in article c o nh su news cso uiuc edu mchaffee dcl nxt michael t chaffee writes w r t performance converter lockup is purely irrelevant the lockup only occurs at light throttle settings and serves only to improve mpg mind you a converter clutch does a lovely job of improving mpg but the additional mechanical advantage of the converter gives you more acceleration vs locked converter clutch than its inherent losses take away the transmission in my car contradicts both your assertions i get much stronger acceleration if i let the convertor lockup which i can induce by briefly lifting off then quickly but not too quickly to trigger a kickdown applying throttle above rpms the convertor will never unlock it would kickdown first who says there s no skill involved in driving an automatic i think of it as the throttle and shifter combined into a single pedal with my car i can pretty much influence its shifting patterns with my right foot while having both hands to steer eliot
rec.autos	bimmer vs beamer although not in direct response to the referenced article just to set the record straight beamers are bmw motorcycles bmw cars are bimmers please let s get our terms straight actually some purists would argue that the only true bimmer is a round tail light or mark
rec.autos	re warning please read could we plase cease this discussion i fail to see why people feel the need to expound upon this issue for days and days on end these areas are not meant for this type of discussion if you feel the need to do such things please take your thought elsewhere thanks i want only two things from this world a plymouth and a small opec nation with which to fuel it this would be a good and just thing car smashers can just go home and sulk jacques brouillette manufacturing engineering
rec.autos	insurance rates on performance cars summary i recently posted an article asking what kind of rates single male drivers under yrs old were paying on performance cars here s a summary of the replies i received i m not under anymore but is close enough dodge stealth rt twin turbo hp model no tickets no accidents own a house have taken defensive driving airbag abs security alarm single year decut state farm insurance this includes the additional for the umbrella policy over my car and house the base policy is the standard policy required in de after nd defensive driving course it will be less i bought the car in september the company i was with never had and accident or ticket in years quoted me hope this helps steve flynn university of delaware kevin hope i remembered your name correctly you asked about insurance for performance cars well last year i was in a similar situation before i bought my car and made the same inquiry as you age then and now car eagle talon tsi awd driving record clean state illinois cost mos i turn in may and the insurance goes down to mos also i m single and that incurs a higher rate with my company i ve got a couple other friends w awds and they pay more than i do different ins companies also so maybe i m just lucky hope the info helps dan dans jdc gss mot com motorola cellular subscriber group usa cc i m live in norman oklahoma drive an thunderbird sc have never made a claim against my insurance though i have been hit several times by negligent drivers who couldn t see stop signs or were fiddling with their radios and i have had three moving violations in the last months one for going in a one for failure to clear an intersection i still say the damn light was yellow and one for going in a which didn t go on my record my rates from state farm with a passive restraint deduction on liability deductible comprehensive and deductible collision are roughly year i was paying just over year for a escort lx james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven i am beyond the under age group but i have an experience a few years ago that might be interesting to you i owned a toyota celica gt i decided to buy myself a gift a more exotic car front runners included the toyota supra turbo and the porsche model years i narrowed it down to those two i liked the simplicity and handling and snob appeal too of driving a porsche the supra turbo was less money and had more features and performance almost a personal luxury car it had better acceleration and a higher top speed than the i was almost ready to give in to a buying impulse for the but i decided to stop by my insurance agent s office on the way i asked about what would happen to my rate with either car if you buy the supra your rate classification will be the same as the celica the celica was considered a subcompact and for that year was rated as one of the safest cars with a slight increase because the car will be years newer our lower risk division will continue to handle your account if you buy the porsche we ll have to change you to the standard higher rate company and your rate will double and if you go with a it s another story again we ll cover the rest of this year but cancel you after that but the supra is much faster than the and the is actually faster than the standard that doens t make sense that s what the book says we don t insure corvettes either for some reason the underwriters consider supras and their drivers as very traditional and conservative i eventually went with the supra for a number of reasons the porsche dealer had a nice salesman to get me interested but a tough high pressure guy in the back room at equal monthly payments it would have taken a year longer to pay for the porsche plus its higher insurance i concluded that the high insurance was related to probability of auto theft everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein i live in idaho when i was many years ago years i bought a trans am new insurance was about year when i turned it immediately dropped to year i had not had any accidents before or after this was strictly an age change that same rate stayed pretty much the same until i sold the car years ago my f pickup is about year less the real amazing thing is that when i woke up at age i felt so much more responsible than i was before wes for your information california male single under no moving violation alfa spider year what a bargain let s see i m single male clean driving record i have a vw corrado vr i live in san jose california i pay a year through allstate a good deal if you ask me i was thinking about getting a talon but i think the insurance is higher for a turbo sports car vs a v w honda crx si clean record in a small new mexico town was around per year age nearby city rates were x x higher than where i ve got mine insured robert robert stack institute of transportation studies univ of california irvine stack translab its uci edu mazda protege lx per year saturn sc years old state new mexico insurance state farm here is my info car toyota celica st insurance co farmer s insurance yearly insurance age date of license oct residence mountain view california no moving violations for now atleast hope this helps please post a summary if possible vijay vijay anisetti email anisetti informix com apt off single years old eagle talon turbo awd full cover reasonable liability no tickets no violations no accidents knock on wood mass one thing that makes a huge difference in mass is the town you live in i m personally in one of the best towns within reasonable distance of boston if i moved to the absolute best it would go down to about if i moved to the worst it would be also one accident and a couple of tickets would probably add another rv i have a mitsubishi eclipse turbo awd am years old and have no tickets that went on my record i live in illinois just outside of chicago and pay a year with full coverage at state farm i did get a small discount because of my alarm system a year i only live miles from chicago but if i actually lived in the city the price would be about a year i m over but in case you re interested anyway i m insuring a sho for month thats k personal k total k property with deductible glass and towing state farm unless you are under or have been driving for less than years i think you are being seriously ripped off i don t have one of the performance cars you listed but if your record is clean then you should not be paying over k did you try calling all the insurance dealers you could find although rates are supposed to be standardized i ve found that most places i initially call give me some ridiculously high quote and finaly i hit one that is much lower also i have changed insurance companies when the rate went up at renewal no accidents tickets car gets older to maintain a low rate you always have to be careful when it comes to insurance companies good luck serge
rec.autos	header for honda civic si hello i am looking to slightly increase the performance of my honda civic si i was wondering if anyone could suggest upgrades that were not too drastic i thought that one of the easiest upgrades would be a new header does anyone know what kind of increase that the header would give me i think i would check with jackson racing for the part are there any other comparines would make honda parts are there any other small changes that can be easily made and won t screw up the car things like new injectors new fuel injection chip etc i would welcome any suggestions of small changes that would make a difference i don t really want to change the cam etc because i have heard that it would be much harder on the engine e mail relpies prefered please and i will post a summary of all the replies thanks for any help you may have to offer jeff smith jsmith cs dal ca dalhousie university halifax ns
rec.autos	re impala ss going into production qazi csd csd uwm edu writes from the latest issue of autoweek the chevy impala ss will arrive in dealer showrooms in mid dealers have already been notified no word on the changes to be made for the production version my question to all of you is would you buy it and how much would you pay for it aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should i care i d rather watch drying paint aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should i care i d rather watch drying paint alright gm finally my wishes have come true moby dick with a corvette engine don t you think they should maybe spend the money doing something about the lousy build quality design of their bigger selling cars this is another example of why gm is in so much trouble if you re going to stick the lt or zr engine in a car at least make it a nice looking one sheesh
rec.autos	re chrysler new yorker lhs was re chryslers compact lh sedans warren brown the washington post s auto writer was the first journalist to get his hands on the new yorker if you d like his impressions of it his review appeared in friday s paper in the weekend section he is not your traditional auto writer enjoy
rec.autos	re bimmer vs beamer in article apr newsgate sps mot com markm latium mark monninger writes although not in direct response to the referenced article just to set the record straight beamers are bmw motorcycles bmw cars are bimmers please huh i though beamers were ibm employees let s get our terms straight actually some purists would argue that the only true bimmer is a round tail light or mark
rec.autos	for sale celica repair manuals two volume soft cover repair manuals for all models of toyota celicas probably good for models as well like new condition these are the manuals used by the toyota dealers mechanics they normally cost over new obo brian donnell brian gothamcity jsc nasa gov
rec.autos	mr parts does anyone know of a dead first generation mr i need body parts steering rack and a few minor pieces i was about to buy a parts car but the owner backed out after month of pulling my leg arrrrgh mike s
rec.autos	improvements in automatic transmissions the biggest hurdle for automatics imho is not shifting speed per se but rather the transmission s reaction speed when you try to force it to shift manually this was the biggest fault with the subaru ecvt it took soooooo lonnnnnnnnggggg for the tranny to find the right ratio the sales propaganda says the saturn automatic is effectively an electronically shifted manual might this mean that saturn has conquered the problem i dunno only driven saturn speeds input please another question any plans for a manual trans chrysler lh does anyone else out there fall asleep at night dreaming of this combo
rec.autos	slick any good chances are that this has been discussed to death already and if so could someone who has kept the discussion mail me or direct me to an archive site basically i am just wondering if slick really does all it says that it does and also is there any data to support the claim thanks for any info mike davis mad a fermi clas virginia edu
rec.autos	re lois chevrolet the chevrolet brothers were respected racers test drivers for the buick co when durant was there when the directors kicked durant out of gm in he took chevrolet and others with him as mentioned before they founded the successful chevrolet company a little known fact is that the chevrolet co actually took over gm that was how durant got back in charge of gm legally his new company chevrolet co did the buying and gm was a division of chevrolet after and into the sloan era gm shuffled things so that the gm board was superior but there was always a degree of autonomy given the chevy division presumably because of the initial structure if you look at the organization chart for gm in sloan s book chevy division reports directly to th floor not through the passenger car division which covers buick olds cadillac and oakland pontiac jeff hagen minor deity of worthless auto trivia hagenjd ac wfu edu
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article w z b w w cellar org blu cellar org dan reed writes fact is i just leave the valet key in my glovebox for whenever i need it that will make it easy for a car thief saves him her the trouble of popping your ignition dick grady salem nh usa grady world std com so many newsgroups so little time
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article c hqj unix amherst edu bhtulin unix amherst edu barak h tulin writes i just started reading this thread today so forgive me if it has already been mentioned but what was the deal with renault s putting the horn on the left hand turn signal stalk it was a button on the end where the washer button would be on the wiper washer stalk could the frenchies not figure out the wiring through the steering wheel or what ford tried that also back in my ranger pickup had the horn at the end of the turn signal stalk instead of in the center of the wheel where god intended it to be i drove two different cars then the other an camry and never did get used to pushing the turn signal stalk to blow the horn the only time i got it right was when i was getting the annual state required safety inspection not one of ford s better ideas dick grady salem nh usa grady world std com so many newsgroups so little time
rec.autos	re where can i get a new york taxi wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes actually you want a checker special if you can find one good luck i m sorry i let mine go i grew up in new york city so i rode in many checker cabs the jump seats were fun as a kid although the cars were roomy a good trait for a taxi they had a design flaw that i don t understand they never fixed the rear passengers tended to fall out of their seats when the driver braked i wouldn t want to take a long ride in the back seat of one of these vehicles why did you like yours i never drove one so i have to ask tommy reingold at t bell labs holmdel nj tommy boole att com or att boole tommy
rec.autos	re seating ergonomics headroom in article amiller almaden ibm com amiller almaden ibm com alex miller writes my physical therapist has suggested that a good driving position for me is to have my back nearly vertical and for my knees not to be much higher than my hips are there any cars that are particularly good in respect to having both headroom and a well designed seat height take a look at mini vans i sat in a dodge caravan which had a high seat and plenty of headroom dick grady salem nh usa grady world std com so many newsgroups so little time
rec.autos	re improvements in automatic transmissions hagenjd wfu edu jeff hagen writes the biggest hurdle for automatics imho is not shifting speed per se but rather the transmission s reaction speed when you try to force it to shift manually i rented an oldsmobile achieva is that a yuppie name or what and a nissan stanza they both had automatics i m a manual transmission bigot but i have to admit that the transmissions on these cars were better shifters than i am and yes they responded very quickly to kickdown requests the nissan had a tachometer so i was able to figure out which gear i was in the olds may have also but i don t remember i believe it shifted all the way down to second at about mph when my foot told it no i really want to accelerate quickly i would still prefer a manual but i won t delude myself into thinking that i can out accelerate a modern automatic and i m very smooth at shifting but certainly not as good as an automatic tommy reingold at t bell labs holmdel nj tommy boole att com or att boole tommy
rec.autos	zx or sc hi everyone i m getting a car in the near future i ve narrow it down to zx and sc which might be a better choice thanks for your opnion danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this ip lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work
rec.autos	prizm s radio question i was lloking at the geo prizm lsi today very nice anyway i had a questions that the salesperson couldn t answer how does the theft deterrent on the prizm s audio systems work can t find the answer in any of geo s lterature thanks in advance archie holmes
rec.autos	opinions on recent alfa spiders anyone have any opinions on fairly recent model alfa spiders reliablilty for what their class i m not talking alfa vs toyota corrola which is more relaible as far as i can discern in recent years there are levels with all basically the same mechanical aspects please email any responses ted schreiber mechanical enginering northwestern university tel fax email rts nwu edu
rec.autos	re mazda just does not feel right the car might also need a front end alignment particularly if you re describing wandering
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam in article libemc byuvm bitnet libemc byuvm bitnet writes mark states in his post to know the dealer price and offer above my husband and i are in the market to buy our first car together and neither of us know how to go about it how do you find out the dealer price are their books to look in do you send away somewhere for it several company publish periodicals or times a year which list the sticker prices and the dealer invoice prices of all the cars and their options edmund s is the name of one such price guide you can find these price guides at most places which sell magazines dick grady salem nh usa grady world std com so many newsgroups so little time
rec.autos	traffic rules at intersections i am presently doing a masters thesis to do with traffic intersections in new zealand but a lot of the books i am researching from are from america or australia and so i was wondering if anyone could please tell me what the road rules are in either country with regard to intersections thanks julian visch jsv math canterbury ac nz i
rec.autos	eagle talon tsi lemon dear netters i am looking to buy a used eagle talon or tsi awd question is that the tsi awd was mentioned in the april consumer reports to a car to avoid in particular the manual transmission electrical system and brakes were below par in both models a friend of mine ownes a tsi awd and he has had brake jobs pads one stuck valve and some clutch transmission problem something about sticking grinding into second gear this doesn t seem too bad if one beats on his car i am willing to suffer reliability for speed and looks seems you have to pay big buck if you want all three anyway can anyone please let me know how you like your talon and any problems you may have had and if the repairs are worth it thanks for any responses jay
rec.autos	re dumb options list in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes the idea here is to list pointless options you know stuff you get on a car that has no earthly use power windows i like my power windows i think they re worth it however cruise control is a pretty dumb option what s the point if you re on a long trip you floor the gas and keep your eyes on the rear view mirror for cops right power seats are pretty dumb too unless you re unlucky enough to have to share your car otherwise you d just adjust it once and just leave it like that allen tom you re not like the others you like the same atom soda berkeley edu things i do wax paper boiled football atom netcom com leather dog breath we re not hitchhiking anymore we re riding ren
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible if you hold off there are a number of interesting convertibles coming to market in the next few years the new lebaron will be based on the mitsubishi galant which should be an improvement over the current model the new pl compact will have a convertible option also a chrysler product kia makers of the ford festiva is planning a larger convertible steve morris m a internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept or direct seattle wa
rec.autos	re improvements in automatic transmissions an excellent automatic can be found in the subaru legacy it switches to sport mode when the electronics figure it not when the driver sets the switch which is the proper way to do it imo so what does sport mode entail several things revving to red line or to the rev limiter in the case of the legacy delayed upshifts i e if you lift off briefly it will remain in the low gear this is handy if you are charging through corners and would like to do without the distraction of upshifts when there s another curve approaching part throttle downshifts based on the speed at which the pedal is depressed rather than the position of the pedal modern electronics can measure this very easily and switch to sport mode this is wonderful if you want to charge through a green light about to turn red my audi senses this very well and can downshift on as little as half throttle if my right foot is fast enough also i think that a smart automatic can deliver better gas mileage than a dumb driver with a stick all else being equal remember that the idea of a stick being more economical than an automatic makes a big assumption that the driver is smart enough to know what gear to use for each situation how many times have you ridden with an inattentive driver cruising on the highway at in th gear of a speed how many of people who drive manuals really know what the best gear to use is for every conceivable situation i m sure there will be some who know but i suspect that a chip controlled automatic with all possible scenario ratio combinations stored in rom is likely to do better i can also say that all my previous assumptions were proved wrong after i got a car with instantaneous mpg readout high gear low revs and wide open throttle is more economical than low gear high revs and small throttle opening the explanation is quite simple if one sits down to think about it but not that obvious at first sight eliot
rec.autos	re taurus sable rotor recall we get about taurus sables for fleet cars at our site every year then the company sells them a year later to employees the folks i know who drive buy them have no complaints the cars seem to drive real nice too
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in rec autos you write if ayrton senna can drive a racecar with fully automatic transmission it can t be half bad this mclaren auto transmission i still think it s only half auto but you may be right has nothing to do with your gm chrysler volvo or whatever auto transmission it s a normal manual transmission gearbox with clutch and all but there are servo motors which do the shifting that means there is no power loss in the drivetrain if you take out minimal mechanical friction and the sami auto transmissions ferrari williams mclaren don t tell you when to shift either however these transmissions share an important disadvantage with your stock auto trannie they are expensive as long as these servo shifted gearboxes aren t available on normal cars i m gonna stick with my manual i just can t see an advantage to make up for two grand i lose in this deal and the loss in mileage and power except maybe in real heavy traffic but then i drive mostly on the autobahn and country roads anyway there s no point in making a religion out of this i just wanted to point out a few technical facts and my own opinion so there s no need for a flame war eliot have a safe ride chris
rec.autos	re zx or sc ip ns cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes hi everyone i m getting a car in the near future i ve narrow it down to zx and sc which might be a better choice thanks for your opnion danny i ve been asking myself this same question for the past year so if when you find out would you please share the magistic answer with me the way i see it right now work twice as hard so you can have both cheers issa
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting jong halcyon com barking weasel writes schludermann sscvx ssc gov writes my technique is to ease back off the throttle and at the same time gently wrist back on the shift lever if for some reason i miss the shift window i lightly press the accelerator try agian i ve found that clutchless shifting is eaiser quicker at high rpms i also skip gears some times using sounds about right i usually slip it out during throttle down and then blip the throttle and wait until it feels like things are right usually about a second and then slip it into gear so how did you guys learn this is it something you were born with or did you make horrible grinding noises the first few times how many times i would think you d have to have a certain amount of feel for it to begin with some people would never get it and others like me would never have the guts to try it unless maybe you were planning to buy a new transmission anyway btw i ve heard that quite a few truckers and race car drivers shift this way zaphod madnix uucp ron bean uwvax astroatc nicmad madnix zaphod
rec.autos	st time chrysler buyer off really hello world just bought a new stealth two weeks ago got a grad student rebate someone told me that there s another reabet for st time chrysler buyer true if yes can i still get it or am i too late mubashir cheema sparco communications ph lagalarie fax russell street suite email mac ra msstate edu starkville ms
rec.autos	vw passat advice sought i am currently in the car market and would like opinions on a vw passat glx how does it compare to a toyota camry i thought the car looked very solid stable and european only disappointment so far is that that it doesn t offer an airbao my next question is why isn t vw offering automobiles with airbags should i pay the extra three thousand for a bmw is even though it is smaller and less powerful than than the passat
rec.autos	re i m getting a car i need opinions in article apr ns cc lehigh edu ip ns cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes i have as my budget i m looking for a sports or gt car what do you think would be the best buy well for a bit more you could get an mazda rx definitely a best for under k you re stuck with in no particular order chevy camaro z lt ponitac firebird firehawk ford mustang cobra toyota mr turbo gmc typhoon travis
rec.autos	re for hail damage a record i was in the great storm my mazda mpv was damaged so bad they are going to replace the top doors and hood it is black so they will repaint the entire vehicle estimated cost around and repair time approx to weeks rremaley bcm tmc edu
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article apr newsgate sps mot com rapw email sps mot com writes in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes several chemists already have come up with several substitutes for r you don t hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that is the people who stand to rake in that to per retrofit per automobile have mounted an organized campaign to squash those r substitutes out of existence if not ban them altogether on very shaky technical grounds at best on outright lies at worst now i m not saying you re wrong because i know that the r substitutes exist but this sounds a lot like the mpg carbs that the oil companies keep us all from getting it sounds crazy but it s true one of the best r subsitutes ghg is currently a commercial product unfortunately the sae committee on mobile air conditioning is comprised almost exclusively of macs members such being the case no papers about any alternative refrigerant other than r a have been accepted for review publication yo john you want to provide some more details or should i just repost your voluminous repost later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs we here are very interested in info on r substitutes in fact i think we really need all the info on this we can get i would really appreciate technical supply and hardware upgrade details also r is a useful solvent reagent in the extraction production of certain pharmaceuticals any info on the substitutes corresponding usefullness i am currently working with the local engineers who are making sure we are compliant with the regulations the trouble with regulations is that they only tell you what you are no longer permitted to do not what you should do instead i think the cause of the new regulations is the montreal protocol which has a definite cfc phase out schedule of course the cause of the montreal protocol was all the research done on the causes of the ozone depletion problem someone asked earlier about why the governments were working so fast to ban the ozone depleting cfc chemicals and not gasolines and other greenhouse gas producing compounds the greenhouse effect produced by infrared trapping gasses like co and methane and the ozone hole problem produced by long lived chlorine containing molecules are not the same thing it is a lot easier to do something about not using the cfc s chloro fluorocarbons than it is to stop producing co and methane which are natural byproducts of combustion and of living animal organisms planting more trees and not destroying so many existing trees would help the greenhouse gas problem but would do nothing for the ozone problem fred w bach operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university of british columbia vancouver b c canada v t a these are my opinions which should only make you read think and question they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers
rec.autos	re open letter to nissan in qideqinnl sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu steven a morris writes hey nissan why aren t you guys making any station wagons you used to make a wagon on every platform sentra stanza maxima and now none at all in fact they make some but they just don t sell them here in u s sunny california is a l wagon based on sentra avenil is a l wd wd wagon it looks like infinity g but actually it s independently designed to be a wagon i mean it s not based on any sedans nissan had better consider to sell them here after buying my se r and really loving it i would like to buy another nissan product for my wife but prefer a wagon i ve owned minivans and don t prefer them how about an altima wagon or a sentra wagon would do sounds nice but i doubt they have a plan coz avenil was introduced to replace any sedan based wagon or here s an even better suggestion why don t you guys go ahead and buy the rest of fuji heavy industries subaru and put either an in line or v into the legacy wd wagon i d buy the legacy in a minute if it had a nissan engine instead of the horizontal that they seem sentimentally attached to with all the camry accord taurus volvo and subaru wagons out there it s got to be a market segment that would be worthwhile i can wait a year or two but if you don t have something to compete by the model i may have to go elsewhere thanks steve morris m a internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept or direct seattle wa
rec.autos	re warning please read from article apr virginia edu by ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly a small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks i don t recall if she made it but i think she was comatose for a month or so and doctors weren t holding out hope that she d live what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold yes
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr cbnewse cb att com turbo cbnewse cb att com gerald l lindahl writes from article apr virginia edu by ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly about a year ago some kids tossed a rock off an overpass on i near eau claire wisconsin and it killed the driver below i believe he was a schoolteacher from minnesota jason hanson w wisconsin ave marquette university milwaukee wi ham radio n lea ae jason studsys mscs mu edu n lea n ary nocal ca usa na
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam mark monninger markm bigfoot sps mot com wrote while not exactly a service incident i had a similar experience recently when i bought a new truck i had picked out the vehicle i wanted and after a little haggling we agreed on a price i wrote them a check for the down payment plus tax and license and told them i d be back that evening to pick up the truck when i returned i had to wait about an hour before the finance guy could get to me when i finally got in there everything went smoothly until he started adding up the numbers he then discovered that they had miscalculated the tax license by about he then said he needed another from me i said we had already agreed on a price and it was their problem i wasn t giving them any more money the finance guy then a similar thing happend to me a year ago i bought a used ford bronco which has since been stolen and few weeks after i paid and took delivery they sent a letter telling me they goofed and miscalculated the license renewal by and that i need to send in a check to avoid further delay in the processing of my registration the thing is i had already received the pink slip from the dmv so i ignored it i received another letter and then the phone calls started coming first from the finance guy and then from the general manager both hounding me for the extra money they left me alone once i told them i already had the paperwork and pointed out the clause in the contract that stated that the final price was just that final afterall they wouldn t budge if i had told them i wanted another off after the deal had been signed right i told them not to call again and that i would not do business with them in the future they didn t seem to have a problem with that this after all was a used ford at a toyota dealership i had a much better experience buying a new pathfinder about a month ago it certainly pays to buy a car on the last sunday of the month it was even raining too so they had done very little business that weekend and were really willing to deal i kept telling them i would think about it and they kept dropping the price got a very good deal and so far have been very please with the service john jdenune pandora sdsu edu
rec.autos	seeking good alfa romeo mechanic i am looking for recommendations for a good great alfa romeo mechanic in south jersey or philadelphia or nearby i have a alfa spider that needs some engine tranny steering work done the body is in quite good shape the car is awful in cold weather won t start if below freezing i know i know why drive a spider if there s snow on the ground it has bosch mechanical fuel injection that i am sure needs adjustment any opinions are welcome on what to look for or who to call email or post to rec autos i will summarize if people want thx andy brandt cs unc edu
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven j orlin writes i take the electrodes of the amp ohm volt meter whatever and connect one to each earlobe then symmetrically insert my fingers in each of the spark plug boots no cheating guys both hands must be used i have just a couple of questions about this technique first what firing order should i use do i start with my pointer finger or my pinky left hand or right and secondly i have a cyl and there are two cylinders unaccounted for any suggestions andy
rec.autos	re do trains have radar in article apr usho hou chevron com hhtra usho hou chevron com t m haddock writes while taking an extended easter vacation i was going north on i somewhere between centerville tx and dallas tx and i came upon a train parked on a trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes there appeared to be movement within the cab and out of curiosity i slowed to to get a better look just as i passed from underneath the trestle my radar detector went into full alert all lights lit and all chirps beeps and buzzes going strong i thought i had been nailed good but no police materialized could this have been caused by the train s radio or what travis boy travis were you lucky you went under the new texas rangers stealth patrol car good thing you slowed down newsgroups rec autos distribution world references apr usho hou chevron com from dje bmw nosubdomain nodomain don eilenberger organization subject re do trains have radar keywords
rec.autos	honda accord brake problem my honda accord just hit the magic mile mark and now all sorts of things are beginning to go bad the latest problem i am experiencing is with my brakes they still stop the car fine but once i am stopped completely my brake pedal will sink another or inches all by itself if feels really strange and i am worried my brakes will quit working one of these days i checked my brake fluid and the reservoir was full but the fluid itself looked really dirty like dirty oil i called my mechanic and he told me i need a new brake master cylinder which will cost me a whopping i was just wondering if anyone out there has experienced this sort of thing if so is my mechanic being honest or do i simply need to have my brakes bled and new fluid put in any help you could provide would be appreciated please send replies directly to me as i rarely have a chance to read this list i will post the responses if there is any interest thanks joni ciarlett mizar usc edu
rec.autos	cleaning eurowiper boots i have the eurowiper boots in white and had to throw away the first pair since i found no way of cleaning them after they looked almost black now i have my second pair of white ones and once again they are dirty i need a way to clean them w o removing them since i had to cut them to remove them is there a way or should i just buy black ones thanks joel joel sprechman sprec j acsu buffalo edu university at buffalo v pff ubvms cc buffalo edu it s not a black white thing it s a homosapian thing it takes a big man to cry and an even bigger man to laugh at that man jack handy
rec.autos	re open letter to nissan really station wagon with the popularity of minivans the market room for station wagons is squeezed out they are not as comfortable as sedan and don t carry as much as the minivans this is not to say nobody wants the wagon anymore but the demand is certainly hampered by the minivan and may not be economical to build a product for jason chen a station wagon owner
rec.autos	re old corvettes low insurance in article c j mi fmi news rich bnr ca peon w o email eric youngblood writes in article apr ns cc lehigh edu swr ns cc lehigh edu scott warren rosander writes in article c csux fn news cso uiuc edu gdhg uxa cso uiuc edu george hei nz writes after too many years of school i m finally graduating and getting a real job of course i am trying to make plans of how to spend all this extra money right now i have an accord a good car but not real sporty i was thinking of selling it in about two years and dropping around k on a sports car of some kind after thinking about it i may have a better idea i ll keep the accord until it drops and buy the car i ve always wanted a corvette stingray my reasoning is that accord corvette is less than what i would spend anyway basically i m thinking of a late s early s for around k my question is what are good years to consider for reliability looks horsepower in that order believe it or not horsepower is not a main concern if i want to go fast i get on my motorcycle and what are good prices also what would insurance look like i m male single i might wait until i m to get the car lower insurance would the fact that i mainly drive the other car lower it is there some type of classic car or rarely driven insurance class for driving it under k miles per year my dad has a vette and its on what you say classic insurance basically what that means is that it has restricted amount of driving time which basically means it cant be used as an every day car and would probably suit your needs for limited mileage in my area denver if you look around alittle you can get an for or less not much less you said your not looking to go fast they are a really nice car just not real powerful in addition to restricted mileage many classic insurance carriers also require that the vehicle be garaged when not in use ericy eric youngblood bell northern research richardson texas peon w o email privs
rec.autos	re sho clutch question grinding noise in article c h f ldu news rich bnr ca jcyuhn crchh nosubdomain nodomain james yuhn writes that s not the clutch you re hearing its the gearbox early shos have a lot of what is referred to as gear rollover noise you can generally i have one of the first shos built and mine doesn t make this noise
rec.autos	re too fast in article qh m b l armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes it s a bit hard to prove a point like this but i can compare the i was hoping for something like the chassis exhibits x degrees of flex when subjected to forces of more than y units forces of more than y units begin to manifest at z miles per hour not well gee it wasn t designed to go fast because uhh well gee it wasn t designed to go fast it s not a porsche you know come with better seatbelts more supportive seats a stronger passenger compartment cage better brakes a stiffer suspension different tires and a body design that takes advantage of aero effects to keep the car on the ground what do they come with well as compared to the normal taurus the sho comes with more supportive seats better brakes a stiffer suspension different tires and a body design that takes advantage of aero effects to keep the car on the ground or at least i think that s what all that boy racer plastic is for you re kidding yourself if you think any car on the road has a passenger compartment made to withstand mph impacts compare either to the porsche and you tell me which was designed oh right only dollar cars should be driven fast they drive goddamn rabbits at mph in europe pal and i reckon a taurus is at least as capable as a rabbit certainly haven t convinced me of course not speeding is bad speeding is illegal i will not speed i love big brother you had your mind made up already it s interesting that lots of the roads out west had no speed limits until wr
rec.autos	re too fast in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes there may be a case where a speed limit sign is not necessary but take them away entirely yeah you re right doing away with speed limits would just mean huge tax increases as municipalities tried to make up for the revenue they used to gouge from passing motorists
rec.autos	re too fast in article shaman wv tek com andrew frip wv tek com writes so is cocaine what s your point that neither is harmful when used carefully
rec.autos	re too fast wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes compare either to the porsche and you tell me which was designed oh right only dollar cars should be driven fast they drive goddamn rabbits at mph in europe pal and i reckon a taurus is at least as capable as a rabbit my whole point was not to say that the cars couldn t go that fast but that they shouldn t go that fast a family sedan designed to be operable at mph doesn t suddenly become operable at mph because you added some plastic aero effects slightly wider tires and a much larger engine that s what the sho is a slightly modified family sedan with a powerful engine they didn t even bother improving the brakes the mustang is essentially the same deal as the sho a big power plant stuck in a mid size sedan with almost no other modifications i have real life experience with the mustang it handles like a brick except when you re invoking oversteer of course something i personally avoid doing on the highway and stopping power is inadequate even from mph lots of accelleration but the rest of the car is not up to par i picked the porsche example because they are designed with speed in mind it didn t have to be the it could have been the much cheaper or one of several mercedes or audi models all of these cars are fairly expensive but so are the parts that make them drivable at high speed this should be elementary there are a few things to keep in mind about europe since you brought it up my autobahn knowledge is admittedly second hand but i believe the following to be true drivers are much better disciplined in europe than they are here the roads comprising the autobahn are much better designed than they are here and usually include animal fences this makes them far more predictable than most us highways not all of europe is the autobahn most places in europe have speed limits that aren t out of line with what we used to have in the us if my friends weren t lying to me they re typically not much higher than km h i strongly suspect you won t find a lot of rabbit owners doing mph nearly km h on the autobahn but i could be wrong some people have no respect for their own lives you certainly haven t convinced me of course not speeding is bad speeding is illegal i will not speed i love big brother you had your mind made up already if you think so you sure don t pay attention to my postings jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re cherokee v explorer jcksnste acf nyu edu writes hi all brand new to the group so please no flames honest opinions on jeep cherokee country not sport v ford explorer my stepfather who ponders every major decision up to four months after making it is looking at one of the two also please comment on the importance if any between wd and wd we live in princeton nj and will barely ever take it off road we learned with this last winter that we could really use something with a little more confidence in inches of snow than an olds cutlass eighty eight all replies appreciated he ll be pondering this for a while he s already decided on cyl over so don t worry about that one thanks steve i own a new ford explorer i really love it i drove the jeep and besides the power i just didn t see spending the money for it the jeep was great but i just love the explorer i have a wd and i got through the blizzard of just fine i drove about miles in the worst part of storm and it never faulterd my own opinion doug i jcksnste acf nyu edu
rec.autos	re ranger vs s opinions if your buying a compact pickup do yourself a favor and wait a few months for the gmc sonoma magazines are saying it is day and night over the current truck it s georgeous solid and fast hp vortec v should whip the ranger in every area too accept maybe payload and always pick a gmc over a chevy gmc s are always so much better looking man i miss the comanche marty and matt owings ninja type rider dudes it s a feeling that we all wanna know and it s an obsession to some to keep the world in you rearview mirror while you try to run down the sun wheels by rhestless heart
rec.autos	lh workmanship i just visited the ny auto show and saw two lh cars on the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid really nice i must say very attractive styling lots of features and room at a competitive price unfortunately the workmanship is quite disappointing on both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off it turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band it goes on just by pressing the groove against the tongue on the door frame surely it would come off easily i am not sure how many of this kind of pooring engineering assembly problems that will show up later i may still consider buying it but only when it establishes a good track record jason chen
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr porthos cc bellcore com dje bmw nosubdomain nodomain don eilenberger writes in article qgi einnhs skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca yik chong lam writes hello does anyone know how to take out the bolt under the engine compartment should i turn clockwise or counter i tried any kind of lubricants wd etc but i still failed do you think i can use a electric drill change to a suitable bit to turn it out if i can succeed can i re tighten it not too tight is it safe without oil leak thank you very much in advance winson i would suggest you take the car to the nearest chevron dealer with your own oil and filter ask for an oil change it will cost less than watch him her do it just from watching someone do a job you will be able to learn and remember the sequence and do it right when you do it yourself the next time besides when he she loosens the drain nut the next time around it will be easier for you if it is stuck use an impact wrench not too much force though use a new washer each time you put the nut back s ssave ole cdac com
rec.autos	pontiac e mail car clubs i am interested to know if there is any pontiac e mail car clubs out there has anyone started one or is anybody thinking about starting one thanks for any info you can give me maloney badlands nodak edu
rec.autos	re ultimate awd vehicles in article apr engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes in article q huinnjrv uwm edu qazi csd csd uwm edu writes subarus don t sell that well although the percentage of subes purchased with awd is probably relatively high of all subarus sold are wd awd audi is backing down on the number of models it offers with awd before one could purchase an or with awd but now it is reserved strictly for the top line model the same goes for the the q has been eliminated from the us lineup but the is still available in quattro version though it is hardly cheap they are still true to their pledge of making wd an option on their entire line of cars now if only they will bring in the s wagon eliot before the s became the s it was called the turbo quattro v this model did come in a wagon a very quick wagon very rare also mike sylvester umass
rec.autos	re warning please read sorry for the auto content but that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is imminent steve heracleous you do have the power steve you can do it why don t you why don t you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do a good job though don t miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr progress com damelio progress com stephen d amelio writes bmoss grinch sim es com brent woody moss writes you could take a screw driver and hammer and start punching holes in various locations and when some black slippery stuff starts pouring out then you would know that the oil drain plug is nearby within a foot or two anyway close the holes with toilet paper before refileing with oil though you have to refill the engine with oil wow no wonder i can t get an engine to last more than my first oil change don t forget to punch holes in the radiator too it will spray nice refreshing water on the engine and keep it nice cool steve gee you really make me confused what is radiator where is it located what does it look like will it release any radiation since it sounds like radia tion genera tor when you punch holes hanguyen
rec.autos	re instead of a saturn sc what one thing that everyone is forgetting in this argument over the pricing of the sc vs the japanese cars is the saturns no dicker sticker this makes the saturn s price low in comparison to the inflated base prices of the japanese competition on paper but in reality one could dicker several hundred dollars off the price of the japanese cars admittedly though here in canada at least the sc is in the same price class as the civic si not the sc steve hui
rec.autos	re instead of a saturn sc what for those that are interested i got my fully optioned air abs sunroof se r in september for in sacramento ca it was one of the st s sold few of the dealers had any no local dealer had an abs equipped se r i went straight to the fleet manager at the dealership i liked told him what i wanted made him aware that i knew what his price should be he called me back with exactly what i wanted from a dealer mi away i took delivery the next day
rec.autos	re lh workmanship in article apr walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes i just visited the ny auto show and saw two lh cars on the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid really nice i must say very attractive styling lots of features and room at a competitive price unfortunately the workmanship is quite disappointing on both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off it turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band it goes on just by pressing the groove against the tongue on the door frame surely it would come off easily lack of build quality was the thing i notced on the first lh s i saw months back the panel gaps were large and non uniform between the cars i saw the kind of thing you expect and accept on a mustang but not from chrysler s savior i drove one of the low end cars and thought it was more than adequate i d prefer an lh to a taurus from my brief experience craig i am not sure how many of this kind of pooring engineering assembly problems that will show up later i may still consider buying it but only when it establishes a good track record jason chen
rec.autos	re too fast in article bob cos bob cos com bob blackshaw writes in apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article qg v ju umcc umcc umich edu mhartman umcc umcc umich edu mark hartman writes driving in a straight line is fine you very soon become aclimated to it it s only a rush when there are corners that you don t think you can make on a clear autobahn is nothing in the u s of people and all judges would label you insane and it is difficult to persuade people otherwise sure but the surface condition of most good autobahns is far better the quality of autobahns is something of a myth the road surface isn t much different to a typical tx freeway they are better in terms of lighting safety signs roadmarkings etc i d have no problem driving on most us freeways as it is i save it for the backroads which really are more likely to be dangerous than most of the roads here a dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at will kill you at don t get me wrong i love to it would have to be quite severe i don t recall any us freeway without road damage warnings that i would regard as unsafe at in any decent well damped car note that my definition of decent well damped would exclude most typical american sedans drive quickly and they say my probe will do but that s more than i ve ever tried in it cause there isn t a decent enough piece of road hereabouts i don t know where you live but i would be much more worried about cops other traffic etc than the road surface at it just isn t that fast or that dangerous if you have a probe gt no problem the cyl models i have driven would be likely to be unpredictable at higher speeds craig craig mark hartman mhartman umcc umcc umich edu kalamazoo mi bk cleveland freenet edu i m naked in the school sleepyhead bob
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article c jnk jkt news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes wasn t the original intent of the reverse lights for the driver so he could see where he was backing up although reverse lights on the sides no reverse lights are to warn others that you are backing up they aren t bright enough to typically see by without the brake and tail lights are useful for telling whether cars are backing up out perpendicular to the path of the car i don t think warnings were their original intents since they are colored white well red and orange were already taken maybe white defines the direction that the car is moving in if you really want to be able to see behind you get some fog lamps for the back of the car these work very well and are a good way to get rid of tailgaters if you get that rush of testosterone craig chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart c quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand
rec.autos	re warning please read i deleted your name because i don t want to sound accusative in my remark this is a two sided problem unfortunately our culture has been deteriorating over time the breeding of these low life s is getting worse our justice system is at best extremely weak to handle these problems that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is imminent my camaro my pride and joy got stolen right out of my driveway a few years back the persons that did that were eventually caught lucky for me but not before having trashed the car on another occasion on my way from texas to florida i had stopped in a small motel for the night in a small town somewhere in florida about youths were disturbing my car setting off the alarm and challenging me to come out when i and another tenant walked out with a magnum and a automatic respectively they vanished needless to say i immediately packed up and left watch out for car jacking and staged accidents they can be deadly i m not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons but i would ask you if you would have thought seriously about shooting a kid for setting off your alarm i can think of worse things in the world glad you got out of there before they did anything to give you a reason to fire your gun we can all ask what s happening to society these days but don t forget to ask another important question too what effort am i expending to make it any different than it is just my thoughts joe karolchik
rec.autos	re braindead drivers who don t look ahead in apr ctp com bpita ctp com bob pitas writes in article zdem a hgo zdem a hgo hou amoco com donna martz writes stuff deleted excuse me but i understood what mr smith meant and i have often observed when traffic is blocked solid that if a few people yeild to the moron who is impatiently riding bumpers the slug at the front of the pack will miraculously wake up change lanes and viola no more jam granted the situation here does not apply to rush hour in a crowded city but i have observed this situation regularly on your average interstate six or eight sets of cars side by side bunched up in a pack with open freeway fore and aft as far as you can see the people who refuse to yeild as a point of honor are just as annoying as the slug in the front i agree that if traffic is all blocked up and you want to pass you might not feel like moving over for someone behind you because you don t want to give them that one car length when they should just wait like you are but if you re one of those people that just sit s behind the person and doesn t flash them with the high beams or pull left and flash them or ride their bumper or otherwise tell them that you do in fact want to go by and you re not just drafting them then get the hell out of the way of someone who will i especially hate it when you flash someone at the back of a line and they don t pass it on so after i ve flashed my lights at the chap in front and he doesn t pass it on and few if any do what next on major highways or more lanes in each direction keeping to the extreme right blocks folks who are entering also as someone posted in this thread here in the d c area we have a few left lane exits sounds like if you wait until the last minute to get in the left lane you won t cause these yoyos won t make room we have a particularly bad strech here in merryland just over the cabin john bridge there are two very long entry ramps which all the hurry up yahoos dive into cause they want to get ahead when we get to the point where these ramps merge all hell breaks lose the result is that traffic which was moving at on the va side of the bridge stalls on t other side if these dingbats had stayed in lane allowed the folks coming up the two ramps to merge we would still be doing instead we do start stop for miles dave barry s idea of a laser equipped car would be real useful here bob ps if you drive the beltway and want to merge look for a brown probe with a silver haired driver then use your signals i don t read minds but i do try to be courteous they told me courtesy was contagious but i guess the folks around here have had their shots
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c jgc ajj dove nist gov keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence b keys writes i know that this isn t the group for it but since you brought it up does anyone have any idea why they haven t bombed the waco cult perhaps it is because witnesses who have left the compound have all testified that the batf shot first they they did not identify themselves before tossing in concussion grenades not that anyone inside could have heard such identification after being near a concussion grenade and the announcement from the batf that they have sealed the warrant under which they were operating which was a search warrant by the way not an arrest warrant in short perhaps because the batf is wildly out of control and perhaps calmer heads have realized that bombing a compound full of woman and children will not improve their position there is a real chance that koresh will be able to prove self defense in court that will leave what four officers dead and no one to blame but the batf followups directed to alt activism where the discussion has raged nearly as long as the seige and which shows every sign of not giving up nearly as soon larry smith smith ctron com no i don t speak for cabletron need you ask liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want it is the freedom to do whatever we are able
rec.autos	re electronic odometers was used bmw question in article dirac physics purdue edu lovall bohr physics purdue edu daniel l lovall writes it shouldn t be that hard if you know much about digital electronics if the counter is made with standard ttl chips all you should need to do is find the chip s used for counting figure out what mileage you want to put in and preset it but wiring the preset pins directly to low high you d also have to know what the conventions are for low and high it might be a little more involved than this but it shouldn t be beyond someone with a bsee or bs eet all the display does is convert what the counter chips say into digits using a translation table stored in rom nobody is using discrete ic s to do these functions anymore if at all i doubt any of the motor electronics had any to start with much less ttl i can almost guarantee that it ll a fruitless attempt to figure out how bmw does it without breaking anything and invalidating any warranty on the car if you re lucky you d still be able to start the car
rec.autos	re warning please read tobias convex com allen tobias writes in article apr virginia edu ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly a small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks i don t recall if she made it but i think she was comatose for a month or so and doctors weren t holding out hope that she d live the girl s ok actually and she recovered well enough to go home i don t know if she has any permanent damage though just in case anybody was concerned what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold if people start forcing others to take responsibility for their actions things like this wouldn t happen untill we stop blaming outside causes and start blaming the criminals we will continue to let things like this happen chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart c quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand
rec.autos	viper last night i had a dream that my dad bought a viper i took it out for a test drive without his knowledge and had to push it all the way home just to avoid a ticket wierd dream i wonder what it means roy
rec.autos	re warning please read in article neilson apr seoul mpr ca neilson seoul mpr ca robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is imminent steve heracleous you do have the power steve you can do it why don t you why don t you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do a good job though don t miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean as a stong self defense advocate you re statement does littel but irk me of course shooting someone because they throw a rock at your car is out of the question but what if they disabled your car with their rock and then wanted to come kill rape rob beat or otherwise harm you your wife kids i think you would like the power to defend yourself in this situation wouldn t you or is it that you value the lives of such rock throwers more than your own or those of your family don t think it couldn t happen to you from the sounds of it here it has happened to a few people please do not misunderstand the only justification for using deadly force on someone is that if you don t it will mean your own death or grave bodily harm i am far far away from supporting vilante justice or anything like that oh and if you mean to be funny please add the appropriate followups to talk politics guns please we re getting a bit off track here steve syck syck miller cs uwm edu
rec.autos	re warning please read and in san francisco recently some of our finest examples of humanity poured oil over a road so that vehicles going uphill would suddnely become immobile and then they would walk right up to the vehicles and make their demands known mark barnes system engineer insert standard disclaimers here sunsoft corporate technical escalations i speak for myself an individual menlo park ca usa not for the company for which i work barnesm vavau corp sun com
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon in article apr ns cc lehigh edu amh ns cc lehigh edu alois m himsl writes yes i have the same questions what makes me upset is that r costs are skyrocketing and in fact can t be bought anymore in my area also this is yet another way mechanics and dealers can rip off customers also i was reading that the new refrigerant is not compatible with the r system and that it would cost upto a to retrofit a car with the old r system although it is important to consider the environment i think the sudden ban is a slap in the face for the consumer why is it that the consumer should have to pay for the retrofit the auto companies should have seen this coming also why is it that the governments of the world were so quick in banning freon use and yet so slow in banning gasoline in my opinion gasoline is just as hazardous as anything else why can t they start proposing bans on this and switch to natural gas or electric the technology is there hopefully some chemist will come up with another alternative coolant that will be compatible with the old system al h several chemists already have come up with several substitutes for r you don t hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that is the people who stand to rake in that to per retrofit per automobile have mounted an organized campaign to squash those r substitutes out of existence if not ban them altogether on very shaky technical grounds at best on outright lies at worst does this piss you off yes write a letter to your congressman to your senator to the president to the epa and to the dot and complain later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.autos	re carb cleaners do they work performance carb rebuild in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article c fyt jby cpsc ucalgary ca schaffer cpsc ucalgary ca doug schaffer writes how hard is a carb rebuild for moderately experienced backyard mechanic i ve done my clutch and miscellaneous little engine fixes the hardest part is usually getting the darned thing off the intake manifold rebuilding a carb is fun if you re into things with lots of little parts i used to rebuild them for all my friends cars in high school so it doesn t take a phd buy a carb rebuilding kit from an auto supply store buy a gallon of the best carb cleaning solvent you can find do they still make tyme as a rule of thumb buy the one with the scariest warning labels put it into a metal bucket make yourself a dipping can by punching holes in the bottom of a coffee can and attaching a wire handle to it if the carb cleaner doesn t strip the paint right off the coffee can you re not using the right stuff use the can to soak the little stuff and just hang the big parts from a coat hanger wash them off with a garden hose wipe off excess water with paper towels and air dry then remember where all the little parts go follow the rebuild kit s instructions concerning float height choke tension etc bolt it back on the engine and admire the super clean carb on the filthy engine heed this man s warnings if you get carb cleaner this strong on your hands your hands will be eaten away not pretty hence the dipping can method later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.autos	re changing oil by self why crawl under the car at all i have a machine i got for my boat that pulls the oil out under suction through the dip stick tube it does an excellent job and by moving the suction tube around you can get more old oil out than by using the drain plug i think i paid at e b marine the oil goes into a steel gal can wait until it cools and decant into your favorite device i use soft drink bottles easy to take them down to the local oil recycle center forza
rec.autos	re electronic odometers was used bmw question in article dirac physics purdue edu lovall bohr physics purdue edu daniel l lovall writes in article conradie firga sun ac za conradie firga sun ac za gerrit conradie writes however if i were to design a bmw s electronics i will use a counter to count the number of times the car passed million miles or whatever and store it in the car computer s memory this could be read when doing a diagnostics test ditto for the date of the odometer as easy as this is i don t know why manafucturers don t do it don t they to prevent illegal odometer tampering but as a previous writer said it will in any case take aeons to reset an odometer mechanic or electronic by simulating a driving car it will be easier to reprogram it how i don t know it shouldn t be that hard if you know much about digital electronics if the counter is made with standard ttl chips all you should need to do is find the chip s used for counting figure out what mileage you want to put in and preset it but wiring the preset pins directly to low high you d also have to know what the conventions are for low and high it might be a little more involved than this but it shouldn t be beyond someone with a bsee or bs eet all the display does is convert what the counter chips say into digits using a translation table stored in rom selah dan but those chips are probably inside a custom chip to make it smaller and use less power and the preset data pins are not going to be available it would probably not be ttl but might be cmos wider operating voltage range not that the tecnology would make much difference plus the custom chip would probably be potted encapsulated with epoxy good luck garyl any shark that gets to be or feet long with big teeth can be considered dangerous shark bowl
rec.autos	re jeep wrangler opini in article qht einnjdf hp col col hp com tvervaek col hp com tom vervaeke writes i have had two wranglers and still have the second right now it s a wrangler base model with the big i l engine hard top no power steering or air conditioning runs like a top has about k on it has never been in the shop i can change my own oil nice tall vehicle i can lube it myself fittings i occasionally take it to jiffy lube to check the differentials and do the oil change there my previous wrangler had nary a problem either here in colorado there more jeeps than bmw s mercedes volvos and the like together in fact jeep has been called the colorado car for a while they hold their value well and are very easy to resell mine cost right around k new of course i didn t blow money on an islander sahara or renegade which i have a wrangler sahara and paid new including the rebate are just wranglers with fancy inside stuff after driving a cj for years that fancy stuff is pretty nice the cars are primitive ride like a dump truck etc but if you live in an area that gets around of snow per winter you d have one too they ll go anywhere with a winch and are easy to get parts for the i like my wrangler but when doing some serious off roading it can t keep up with a cj because of ground clearance and limited suspension travel i do have a winch and would like to get an arb air locker in the future l engine puts out hp and gets around mpg not bad i love the just my experience i m sure there are bad ones out there but that goes for any make and model don graham
rec.autos	re too fast in article qkon re armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes stuff about autobahn and safety of sho at speed deleted the mustang is essentially the same deal as the sho a big power the mustang is a much worse case of design irresponsibility than the sho plant stuck in a mid size sedan with almost no other modifications i have real life experience with the mustang it handles like a brick except when you re invoking oversteer of course something i its hard to predicatbaly drift a stock mustang because of the suspension personally avoid doing on the highway and stopping power is inadequate even from mph lots of accelleration but the rest of the car is not up to par yes when i think mustang i think school bus f motor in my mind the mustang should be fitted with a speed limiter at or so it just isn t safe check out your local junkyard mustangs outnumber other cars by a proportion way in excess of sales in junkyards i find it astonishing the cu or somesuchlike has not jumped on the mustang for poor brakes in relation to power ford should at least standardize on the svo rear brakes for all s i picked the porsche example because they are designed with speed in mind it didn t have to be the it could have been the much cheaper or one of several mercedes or audi models all of these cars are fairly expensive but so are the parts that make them drivable at high speed this should be elementary there are a few things to keep in mind about europe since you brought it up my autobahn knowledge is admittedly second hand but i believe the following to be true drivers are much better disciplined in europe than they are here true of northern europe latin countries are something else the roads comprising the autobahn are much better designed than kindof true remember they were build by adolf in the s they are here and usually include animal fences this makes them far more predictable than most us highways yes not all of europe is the autobahn most places in europe have autobahn is the german word for freeway other countries have different names for loose equivalents autostrada autoroute motorway etc speed limits that aren t out of line with what we used to have in the us if my friends weren t lying to me they re typically not much higher than km h europe did seem on the brink of a kmh limit it hasn t passed as far as i know typical speeds in western europe are much higher than the us law enforcement is negligible in my experience comapred to the us as there is no revenue enhancement motivation the things you really notice are the higher speed differentials and the more professional attitude to driving you just never see two cars running parallel at mph oblivious to all around them i strongly suspect you won t find a lot of rabbit owners doing mph nearly km h on the autobahn but i could be wrong some people you re wrong gti s go this fast just kind of noisy not the ideal autobahn car a lot of times you see cars being driven with the drivers foot on the floor how do i know when you re not making any ground on the identical car in front of you have no respect for their own lives if something happens at you re dead but the same goes for much over driving at high speed forces you to concentrate i feel much safer driving on the autobahn than in typical us traffic because most people seem to be awake i ve never seen any driver reading a book on an autobahn i see it all too often in the us craig it just doesn t seem fast after minutes or so of aclimation everybody drives that fast no big deal craig you certainly haven t convinced me of course not speeding is bad speeding is illegal i will not speed i love big brother you had your mind made up already if you think so you sure don t pay attention to my postings jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re instead of a saturn sc what in ifn spo iv a nz andrew cmu edu jr q andrew cmu edu jason m roth writes r t had an article on cars of the sc ilk and they liked the civic ex the escort gt and the mx best of all and the sc was way down the list except for braking i just looked at that article first of all this summary is inaccurate of cars the sc was th right behind these mentioned and the suzuki swift as has been pointed out it was a semi silly comparison the saturn was at least cheaper than the mx and escort admittedly negligible but an issue and less than the honda the stated goal was a base under k the honda was over while the sc at the same price was excluded in other words they let the best honda play but not the best saturn note that the saturn did beat the k i dont know about the car comparison but as far as the price goes rest assured that the street prices for the mx and escort and maybe even the honda will be lesser than that of the saturn you re talking about all price comparisons i ve seen are based on msrp and of course the saturn dealer will sell the car for sticker price whereas the others will do it way below sticker srihari
rec.autos	re warning please read larose austin cs utk edu brian larose writes this just a warning to everybody on the net watch out for folks standing next to the road or on overpasses they can cause serious harm to you and your car just a cliff notes version of my story follows pm last night i was travelling on the interstate here in knoxville i was taking an offramp exit to another interstate and my wife suddenly screamed and something large hit the side of my truck we slowed down but after looking back to see the vandals standing there we drove on to the police station she did get a good look at the guy and saw him cock his arm with something the size of a cinderblock but i never saw him we are very lucky the truck sits up high on the road if it would have hit her window it would have killed her the police are looking for the guy but in all likelyhood he is gone i am a very good driver knock on wood but it was night time and i never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was to hit the car have us stop to check out the damage and then jump us and take the truck please be aware of folks and for your own good please don t stop peace brian larose larose cs utk edu essary rd knoxville tn as long as we re on the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding in the front of a toyota pickup heading south on interstate north of seattle wa someone threw a rock of an overpass and hit our windshield not by accident i m sure it was impossible to get up to the overpass quickly to see who did it we figured it was kids reported it and left a couple of years ago it happend again and killed a guy at my company he was in his mid fourties and left behind a wife and children turned out there was a reformatory for juviniles a few blocks away they caught the year old that did it they put a cover over the overpass what else could they do i don t think i ll over forget this story neil williams boeing computer services bellevue wa
rec.autos	subaru svx good deal hi netters my friend is seriously thinking of getting the subaru svx there is a local dealer here in seattle selling them for with touring package that s off from msrp he thinks it s a very good deal and i think so too since he knows i have access to the net he would like to get anyone s opinion about this car especially in the area of reliability and maintenanability please send e mail to me as my friend doesn t have access to the net my opinion about this car is you get a lot for auto everything tranny climate control windows locks folddow rear seet full wheel drive fast top spped heavy lb thanks in advacne tom locke work boeing computer services e mail toml voodoo boeing com p o box m s k or uunet bcstec voodoo toml seattle wa
rec.autos	re open letter to nissan really station wagon this week s autoweek talks about how wagons are getting back in vogue i wouldn t mind an audi s wagon great stealth value but you ll never catch me dead in a minivan eliot
rec.autos	re warning please read in article qke b mc spool mu edu jason studsys mscs mu edu jason hanson writes from article apr virginia edu by ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly about a year ago some kids tossed a rock off an overpass on i near eau claire wisconsin and it killed the driver below i believe he was a schoolteacher from minnesota here in houston a couple years ago a young pregnant woman was killed in a similar manner
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam in article apr newsgate sps mot com rapw email sps mot com writes their problem i wasn t giving them any more money the finance guy then brought in the manager on duty who proceeded to give me a hard time i reminded him that i was the customer and i didn t think i should be treated like that and that if he didn t back off he could forget the whole deal he made some smart remark so i told him where he could stick it snatched back my check and left needless to say they were not pleased by the turn of events that s nothing when a friend of mine went shopping for a small sedan a few years ago she brought me along as a token male so the salespeople wouldn t give her the bimbo treatment her first choice was a mazda and second choice was a nissan sentra we went to a mazda dealership and described what we wanted we started negotiating on the price and the salesdroid kept playing the let me run this price by the sales manager after playing the good salesman bad salesman game we finally told him that if he didn t have the authority to negotiate a price perhaps we should be speaking directly to someone who did he brought in the sales manager who proceeded to dick us around with every trick in the book read remar sutton s don t get taken every time for a list finally after playing a few more rounds of you ll have to work with us on this price also known as each time you come up a thousand dollars we ll come down ten the salesmanager gave a signal to his two sales cronies stood up and said well we can t come down any more so i guess we can t help you and they trouped out of the room leaving us sitting in the salesman s office all by ourselves hmm i d read that sleazy salesmen sometimes bug their own offices so they can leave and listen in on couples discussing the sales offer and i mentioned this aloud to my friend while we were sitting there wondering why they would leave us in the office instead of showing us to the door for lack of anything better to do i picked up the phone on the desk and called another mazda dealership asked for a salesman and began discussing what kind of price they would consider a few sentences into the conversation mr salesmanager broke into the line and began telling me how rude he thought it was that i would call another dealership from his phone i said that since he d announced that our business was over he shouldn t care and every time i tried to talk to the other sales guy the sales manager would drown out our voices with his own how did he know that i was using the phone anyway finally i hung up and we headed out of the showroom sales manager and cronies come out of a little unmarked room and he begins to berate us again we say that we won t bother him anymore we re going next door to the nissan dealership then comes the part i wish i could have videotaped as we go out the front door the sales manager shouts across the entire showroom customers and all go ahead you deserve to buy a nissan so my friend bought a sentra just so the guilty won t go unpunished i ll mention that the sales manager s name was gary tusone from his manner his refusal to come down to a reasonable price and his anger at the end my guess is that he had bet our original salesman who was a young novice that he d be able to get at least x dollars out of us and he was steamed that we wouldn t fall for his slimy tricks
rec.autos	re lh workmanship i was following an example of the lh the other day and noticed the fit between the tunk lid and the rear bumper the gap was quite small on the left side but much larger on the right blech mark
rec.autos	re too fast in apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article qg v ju umcc umcc umich edu mhartman umcc umcc umich edu mark hartman writes i don t know why you are complaining about alot of us have cars that can easily top that most that go are built to do it also and can handle the speed why complain and just join in on the fast fun can i ask have any of you been at the speed of its a rush driving in a straight line is fine you very soon become aclimated to it it s only a rush when there are corners that you don t think you can make on a clear autobahn is nothing in the u s of people and all judges would label you insane and it is difficult to persuade people otherwise sure but the surface condition of most good autobahns is far better than most of the roads here a dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at will kill you at don t get me wrong i love to drive quickly and they say my probe will do but that s more than i ve ever tried in it cause there isn t a decent enough piece of road hereabouts craig mark hartman mhartman umcc umcc umich edu kalamazoo mi bk cleveland freenet edu i m naked in the school sleepyhead bob
rec.autos	old license plates wanted hi me and my roomate are going to redecorate the living room and we thought it would be a cool idea to have a license plate from every state in the us and then from whereever else we could find like canada mexixo even some european ones if anyone has any ideas or knows someone that could help us out please let me know the more recent the better but anything would be nice either that or if you have an old plate hanging around hint hint kev wanderer camelot bradley edu kevin c murphy west main street peoria il
rec.autos	re mgbs and the real world in article apr hasler ascom ch kevinh hasler ascom ch writes oh yeah i had a gt mini and even before i did anything to it it could leave an mgb standing anywhere except perhaps on a long straight motorway run at people who bought mgb s bought them because they were an open topped sportscar and embodied what people thought they should for an old fashioned traditional brit sportscar not because they were great at anything pretty much like the people who buy the mazda mx miata today small fun and you can fool yourself and a lot of other people that you have the performance of many far superior and much more expensive performnace cars derek tearne derek nezsdc icl co nz fujitsu new zealand some of the more aware dinosaurs were worried about the environmental consequences of an accident with the new iridium enriched fusion reactor if it goes off only the cockroaches and mammals will survive they said
rec.autos	re dumbest driver action in c dq n ub news cso uiuc edu mwbg uxa cso uiuc edu mark wayne blunier writes jimf centerline com jim frost writes i wish i had the figures with me to back me up but i recall statistics showing that women tended to have more accidents than men but the damage was generally quite minor men had fewer but far more expensive accidents the rate of total vehicle destruction was significantly higher for men than women particularly in the younger male age groups imho social considerations are probably the strongest influence here possibly more so than any difference between the sexes social influences often affect the type of car that s bought and the situations the car is used in and the type of car and driving situations have a major effect on accident risk thus if society expects you to buy a mustang and race it on the street you re more likely to do it and our society expects that of males more than females i agree with some of your social influences such as driving conditions but lets get real here guys don t drag race becuase there expected too we do it becuase its fun and we find out whose car is faster guys drive different than women becuase there men when a driver is driving unusually i can usually figure out if it is a male or female driver without looking at the driver social influences may give a person more reason to buy a vehicle that has a certain amount of character which he or she would like associated with do you change your driving habits when no one is around sheesh i don t know what kind of women they have where you guys live but there are some ladies here who will blow your doors off or at least they will try to but we just can t let the youngsters get too uppity with us old folks my mark b jim frost jimf centerline com bob
rec.autos	re lh workmanship in article apr walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes i just visited the ny auto show and saw two lh cars on the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid at a competitive price unfortunately the workmanship is quite disappointing on both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off it turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band it goes on just by pressing through a single data point you can draw any line you want dr s bart childs professor texas a m dept of computer science both my pastor s late model corolla and my father s stanza have demonstrated the falling door seals problem daryl biberdorf n gjm d biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
rec.autos	honda civic i d like to converse with anyone who has purchased a honda civic about their experience i m new to the car buying game and would like to know what price i can expect to pay for a sedan after bargaining thanks in advance ellen
rec.autos	heard of these south bay shops i need to bring on my vw corrado for body work i got hit i was wondering if anyone has heard of any of these south bay body shops akins collision center of santa clara on reed st auto west collision in san jose los gatos acura royal auto body in sunnyvale thanks w
rec.autos	re changing oil by self rist another dealer service scam in article qk m pbe news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu john r daker writes i was worried about someone stealing my oil once also i finally decided to just have my drain plug welded shut it works great i figure that when i add three or four quarts when the oil light comes on every month or so that it s just as good or better than the old wives tale of changing the oil and filter every miles works for me i must say i did the same thing to my drain plug for the same reasons i was wondering how you filled your crankcase though as i welded my hood shut also out of fear that somebody might steal my air filter oh come on silly all you have to do is cut a hole in your hood and put a tube there so you can get to the oil fill hole what do you think all those big air intake things are for on those hot rod cars they re just for looks only little does anyone know they provide access to the oil fill hole well over where we live we have problems with vandals stealing people s wheels those locking nuts didn t stop them so to be safe and sure i welded the lug nuts to my wheels together it works serious i haven t had my wheels stolen yet
rec.autos	re warning please read in article qh innfl cs utk edu larose austin cs utk edu brian larose writes this just a warning to everybody on the net watch out for folks standing next to the road or on overpasses they can cause serious harm to you and your car just a cliff notes version of my story follows pm last night i was travelling on the interstate here in knoxville i was taking an offramp exit to another interstate and my wife suddenly screamed and something large hit the side of my truck we slowed down but after looking back to see the vandals standing there we drove on to the police station she did get a good look at the guy and saw him cock his arm with something the size of a cinderblock but i never saw him we are very lucky the truck sits up high on the road if it would have hit her window it would have killed her the police are looking for the guy but in all likelyhood he is gone stuff deleted i am sorry to report that in southern california it was a sick sport for a while to drop concrete blocks from the overpasses onto the freeway several persons were killed when said blocks came through their windshields many overpass bridges are now fenced and they have made it illegal to loiter on such bridges as if that would stop such people yet many bridges are not fenced i always look up at a bridge while i still have time to take evasive action even though this sport has not reached us here in fresno greg lewis csufresno edu photojournalism sequence department of journalism csu fresno fresno ca
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article c hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article q innb ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes it s a big aftermarket business almost no cars come from the factory with vynal any more and any fake convertible job definitely came from some aftermarket place what amazes me is how much people are willing to pay for bad taste how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk or side or both sides of some tacky luxury cars some of em aren t fake if you re talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car to sport one i personally would love to have a t bird with a continental kit and the supercharged v that is one of the most beautiful cars ever built imho james the continental may have been the first modern era auto to mount the spare on the rear of the car but it was hardly the first car to sport one various mounting techniques for rear mounting the spare were quite common in early automobiles both us and foreign ken franklin they say there s a heaven for people who wait ama and some say it s better but i say it ain t gwrra i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun y know only the good die young
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam while not exactly a service incident i had a similar experience recently when i bought a new truck i had picked out the vehicle i wanted and after a little haggling we agreed on a price i wrote them a check for the down payment plus tax and license and told them i d be back that evening to pick up the truck when i returned i had to wait about an hour before the finance guy could get to me when i finally got in there everything went smoothly until he started adding up the numbers he then discovered that they had miscalculated the tax license by about this seems to be a popular scam with dealers last month my brother bought a new audi series quatro from a local dealer they came back with the final price tax and all and he added it up for himself there happened to be an extra tagged on under the tax part he pointed out their error and asked them to re think their addition they came back with the right price the next time
rec.autos	re how is cizeta v t doing in article crh regent e technik tu muenchen de crh regent e technik tu muenchen dbp de christian huebner writes i can remember reading a track competition in some car magazine which featured the testarossa the diablo and the v t the result was about the same i would have expected the cizeta was not only the slowest of the three but also dropped out halfway during it s test laps because of smoking brakes for a sportscar it showed ridiculous performance hm i find this hard to believe v t weights about the same as the red head but it has hell lot more horse power perhaps it s due to pre production glitches well to me it still got the most imposing styling among all the sports cars i have seen bye chris crh regent e technik tu muenchen de ferrari f best sportscar ever built personally i don t like cars that rely on turbo power i guess everyone has their favorite car
rec.autos	new break pads exhausts after k km k mi on maxima hi maybe someone can help me here i am looking to buy this nissan maxima gxe for cdn right now the car has km or about miles on it a typical mileage for cars seem to be about km or about k mi the seller just informed me that when he brought the car in for certification he was told that the front break pads and the exhausts had to be replaced to meet the legal standards he said he will replace the components before selling the car to me being copmletely ignorant to the technical stuff on cars i don t know what this could mean is k km about the time typical for replacing the above mentioned items or is this an indication that the car was abused would other things break down or have to be replaced soon the seller told me that he used the car on the highway a lot but i don t know how to verify this i ve seen the paint chipped away in tiny dots in the front edge of the hood though although the maxima is an excellent car and the car is very clean and well kept it s currently out of warranty a similarly priced accord with k km will have years or k km worth of warranty left and i don t want to worry about paying for any repair bills but i also need a car for people when will the new maxima come out by the way i would very much appreciate your input in this please reply by e mail preferred or post in this newsgroup thanks ryan ryan kim university of toronto eecg computer graphics rkim eecg toronto edu do not weave between traffic cones at road works from the new british highway code toronto star april
rec.autos	re instead of a saturn sc what srihari cirrus com srihari shoroff writes in ifn spo iv a nz andrew cmu edu jr q andrew cmu edu jason m roth writes r t had an article on cars of the sc ilk and they liked the civic ex the escort gt and the mx best of all and the sc was way down the list except for braking i just looked at that article first of all this summary is inaccurate of cars the sc was th right behind these mentioned and the suzuki swift as has been pointed out it was a semi silly comparison the saturn was at least cheaper than the mx and escort admittedly negligible but an issue and less than the honda the stated goal was a base under k the honda was over while the sc at the same price was excluded in other words they let the best honda play but not the best saturn note that the saturn did beat the k i dont know about the car comparison but as far as the price goes rest assured that the street prices for the mx and escort and maybe even the honda will be lesser than that of the saturn you re talking about all price comparisons i ve seen are based on msrp and of course the saturn dealer will sell the car for sticker price whereas the others will do it way below sticker srihari i d hate to rehash an old thread but would someone kindly quote a prices that a dealer quotes for a civic ex and escort gt also i m a assuming that the mx was the v so go ahead and look that up too if someone has one of those yearly buyers guides that give a low quote price please quote them too then find the the sc base price thanks chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart c quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand
rec.autos	re lh workmanship in article ql inn q tamsun tamu edu dlb tamuts tamu edu daryl biberdorf writes in article apr walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes i just visited the ny auto show and saw two lh cars on the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid at a competitive price unfortunately the workmanship is quite disappointing on both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off it turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band it goes on just by pressing through a single data point you can draw any line you want dr s bart childs professor texas a m dept of computer science wrong i got two points which were the sample space on the show floor by the previous quote i guess i may drow a determinstic line both my pastor s late model corolla and my father s stanza have demonstrated the falling door seals problem as unfair as it may seem the difference between chrysler and toyota is that chrysler needs to prove that it can build quality cars toyota can afford make a few small mistakes without hurting the image after all door seal failing on a year old stanza is not comparable to the same problem on a brand new intreprid jason chen
rec.autos	re open letter to nissan really station wagon in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes this week s autoweek talks about how wagons are getting back in vogue i wouldn t mind an audi s wagon great stealth value but you ll never catch me dead in a minivan even a minivan based on viper running gear teddy p s i think the audi s gets a liter v next year
rec.autos	re do trains busses have radar in article apr bronco fnal gov colombo bronco fnal gov rick open vms ever colombo writes i don t know about trains but i ve saw a sign on the back of a greyhound bus that warns you that your radar detector may be set off it doesn t explain why but it does set off my radar detector because greyhound has apparently gotten around to installing their radar collision prevention system they use radar to monitor how close other vehicles are and how fast their relative speeds are and signals a warning to the driver if they re coming up on something too fast or are getting too close this is all i remember from the news reports a few months back at the time they were only talking about the possibility of installing the system they didn t mention how it worked in bumper to bumper traffic or how it discriminated between a camaro approaching at mph and ye olde bridge support in the median being approached at mph on a curve i do recall something about progressive stages of warnings from flashing lights to audible warnings ie it goes from a red too close light to hysterically screaming we re all going to die james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re mgbs and the real world derek nezsdc icl co nz derek tearne writes people who bought mgb s bought them because they were an open topped sportscar and embodied what people thought they should for an old fashioned traditional brit sportscar not because they were great at anything pretty much like the people who buy the mazda mx miata today small fun and you can fool yourself and a lot of other people that you have the performance of many far superior and much more expensive performnace cars i have been for a fairly hard run in an mx what they lack in power they surely make up for in handling great for back streets with heaps of corners they are a fairly light car with a low center of gravity and a quite free revving dohc engine a fun car have you driven a turbo converted mx now they are starting to perform i ve often thought a mazda rotary would go well in the xm too anyone done it regards scott scott fisher scott psy uwa oz au ph aus perth local n department of psychology w e university of western australia perth s e s nedlands perth w a v joy is a jaguar xj with a flat battery a blown oil seal and an unsympathetic wife km outside of a small remote town am on a cold wet winters morning
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr icf hrb com jek icf hrb com joe karolchik writes i deleted your name because i don t want to sound accusative in my remark on another occasion on my way from texas to florida i had stopped in a small motel for the night in a small town somewhere in florida about youths were disturbing my car setting off the alarm and challenging me to come out when i and another tenant walked out with a magnum and a automatic respectively they vanished needless to say i immediately packed up and left watch out for car jacking and staged accidents they can be deadly i m not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons but i would ask you if you would have thought seriously about shooting a kid for setting off your alarm i can think of worse things in the world glad you got out of there before they did anything to give you a reason to fire your gun if i hear someone screwing with my car ie setting off the alarm and taunting me to come out you can be damn sure that my colt delta elite will also be coming with me it s not the screwing with the car that d get them shot it s the potential physical danger if they re taunting like that it s very possible that they also intend to rob me and or do other physically harmful things if they re just screwing around no harm done if they re bent on mayhem they will receive the cure for their lead deficiency a gr injection fps there s no telling what today s violent criminals will do death may be the most pleasant outcome james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re new break pads exhausts after k km k mi on maxima in article apr jarvis csri toronto edu rkim eecg toronto edu ryan kim writes hi maybe someone can help me here i am looking to buy this nissan maxima gxe for cdn right now so its an automatic don t know if us spec cdn spec for maximas the car has km or about miles on it a typical mileage for cars seem to be about km or about k mi the seller just informed me that when he brought the car in for certification he was told that the front break pads and the exhausts had to be replaced to meet the legal standards he said he will replace the components before selling the car to me being copmletely ignorant to the technical stuff on cars i don t know what this could mean is k km about the time typical for replacing the above mentioned items or is this an indication that the car was abused if it is the first set of brake pads on front then this is fine my car eats a set every k miles or so the fact that he is replacing the muffler too is also ok would other things break down or have to be replaced soon the mileage is fairly low but typical fwd stuff is cv joints check the maintenance records with the manufacturers requirements for valve adjustments timing belt changes and so on the k mile service is often expensive so make sure he has done everything the seller told me that he used the car on the highway a lot but i don t know how to verify this i ve seen the paint chipped away in tiny dots in the front edge of the hood though well this is one of the commonly cited methods for identifying a car with highway miles might check the gas pedal wear too ask him how many sets of tires he has been through a highway car might have squeezed by on sets a hard driven car sets although the maxima is an excellent car and the car is very clean and well kept it s currently out of warranty a similarly priced accord with k km will have years or k km worth of warranty left and i don t want to worry about paying for any repair bills well the maxima should be pretty reliable but if its out of warranty you should get it checked out by someone knowledgeable first stuff for japanese cars can be expensive but i also need a car for people when will the new maxima come out by the way model year i believe i would very much appreciate your input in this please reply by e mail preferred or post in this newsgroup craig thanks ryan ryan kim university of toronto eecg computer graphics rkim eecg toronto edu do not weave between traffic cones at road works from the new british highway code toronto star april
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c jnk jkt news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes wasn t the original intent of the reverse lights for the driver so he could see where he was backing up although reverse lights on the sides no reverse lights are to warn others that you are backing up they aren t bright enough to typically see by without the brake and tail lights i don t know where you live but i couldn t get out of my driveway at night without reverse lights as someone said out in the country you notice neat little things like stars and the difference between day and night at night around my house which is amongst a forest of rather tall oaks it is dark except for nights with full moons reverse lights illuminate my path very well when backing up i greatly prefer cars with them to cars without operational reverse lights james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re how is cizeta v t doing cs sbw sdcc ucsd edu cs sbw writes does anyone know what happpened to the venerable v t has claudio done any enhancement to it are there any pictures of this beast i can ftp down somewhere thanks p s better seen any rc model of this beauty autoweek had an article about the car within the past six weeks it was the issue with the diablo vt awd on the cover naturally i don t remember the date of the issue offhand but i can check it if anyone is interested aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should i care i d rather watch drying paint
rec.autos	re bmw series for from article eabu dialin slip nts uci edu by eabu orion oac uci edu alvin is there going to be a bmw in could be isn t the liter six supposed to be enlarged to liters in the not too distant future aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should i care i d rather watch drying paint
rec.autos	re instead of a saturn sc what from article qkkl innbvo hp col col hp com by theckel col hp com tim heckel for those that are interested i got my fully optioned air abs sunroof se r in september for in sacramento ca it was one of the st s sold few of the dealers had any no local dealer had an abs equipped se r i went straight to the fleet manager at the dealership i liked told him what i wanted made him aware that i knew what his price should be he called me back with exactly what i wanted from a dealer mi away i took delivery the next day when i was selling nissans last summer i sold a se r in early august when its supply was getting quite scarce the car was black with abs value option pkg and power moonroof i sold it for plus tax naturally my manager didn t really care to sell one of the most desirable se r s for virtually no profit to the best of my knowledge aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should i care i d rather watch drying paint
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time no reverse lights are to warn others that you are backing up they aren t bright enough to typically see by without the brake and tail lights craig perhaps instead of this silly argument about what backup lights are for couldn t we agree that they serve the dual purpose of letting people behind your car know that you have it in reverse and that they can also light up the area behind your car while you re backing up so you can see backup lamps on current models are much brighter than they used to be on older cars those on my taurus wagon are quite bright enough to illuminate a good area behind the car and they re much brighter than those on my earlier cars from the s and s insofar as vettes having side backup lights look at a or model or perhaps a year or two earlier too and you ll see red side marker lamps and white side marker lamps both near the car s hindquarters those aren t just white reflectors harv
rec.autos	re station wagons was open letter to nissan in article apr leland stanford edu tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen writes but you ll never catch me dead in a minivan even a minivan based on viper running gear hmmmm not sure since no such beast exists i can tell you another though you won t catch me dead in a gmc syclone or typhoon either bhp or not not even the fact that clint eastwood has one just my taste no rational reasons for it teddy p s i think the audi s gets a liter v next year car just tested the s wagon with banger and speed manual rave review except for servotronic audi is trying to recoup the development costs for the v and since the v is not selling well they are sticking it into the series cars neat marketing trick eh yeah a v v wouldn t be a bad idea as competition for the upcoming bimmer i would it maybe they can use a liter version to avoid conflicts with the v model then strip off all the luxo garbage let the s remain with the flared arches and fat tires to go fight with the m maybe turn up the boost a wee bit to bump bhp up to say or so while keeping the v with mercedes e style subtlety blah blah blah eliot
rec.autos	re mgbs and the real world in article qlg iu uniwa uwa oz au scott psy uwa oz au scott fisher writes have you driven a turbo converted mx now they are starting to perform i ve often thought a mazda rotary would go well in the xm too anyone done it no but somebody s dropped a ford v into the miata somewhat reminiscent of the shelby cobra the car s obviously not as nimble as before but it s supposed to have a near weight distribution and handle very well i d sure love to drive one teddy
rec.autos	re feedback requested on lowering mustang in article x xz b w w vllyoak resun com jp vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes i have found a kit advertised for lowering the front end of an early mustang installation envolves moving the upper a arm and installation of a wedge shaped spacer between the a arm and ball joint apparently shelby mustangs did a similair modification but left out the spacer i would be interested in feedback pro or con on such a modification i m no mustang head but don t the early ones have a simple strut suspension that is with no upper a arm just a strut going down to a lower control arm single bushing not an a arm with a tension compression rod locating it in the forward backward direction anyway simple strut suspensions like this can be lowered just by using shorter springs cutting the springs lowering the spring perch or shortening the strut below the perch in each of these cases the suspension geometry will suffer because the lower control arms will not be at the intended angle a spacer placed between control arm and the bottom of the strut roughly the height of the reduction will restore the suspension geometry imho the kit that includes the spacer is the only way to go ken ken r dye an optimist is a guy lachman technology inc chicago that has never had x much experience dye lachman com archy
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c h qz kya boi hp com wesf boi hp com wes fujii writes brian larose larose austin cs utk edu wrote i never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was to hit the car have us stop to check out the damage and then jump us and take the truck please be aware of folks and for your own good please don t stop sad this sort of thing is on the rise across the country south florida is getting a lot of national tv coverage on the subject where vacationers are being attacked and some killed in schemes similar to this make that worldwide coverage i know numerous people who were planning holidays to the florida and have now chosen another non us destination you expect this sort of thing perhaps in third world countries but not the us kevinh hasler ascom ch
rec.autos	re sho and sc in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article chrissc qb d b netcom com chriss netcom com chris silvester writes wagon which i have heard is somehow slightly faster than the coupe wagon has an automatic it s slower could be due to the rear end ratio also usually automatics have different rear ends than manuals from my limited experience anyways david david w hwang m d university of michigan medical school wall street suite c telephone ann arbor michigan internet david ganglion ann arbor mi us
rec.autos	the kuebelwagen sorry for the mis spelling but i forgot how to spell it after my series of exams and no on hand reference here is it still possible to get those cute wwii vw jeep wanna be s a replica would be great i think tkh if i can convert a c to a c t i can do anything not
rec.autos	aussie needs info on car shows hi from australia i am a car enthusiast in australia i am particularly interested in american muscle cars of the s and s all makes amc ford chrysler mopar gm i will be in the usa for weeks from may nd to june chicago sun may thursday may denver friday may sunday may austin texas monday may friday may oklahoma city friday may monday may anaheim california tuesday may thursday may las vegas nevada friday may sunday may grand canion monday may tuesday june las angeles san diego and vicinity wednesday june sunday june june south lake tahoe cal sunday june wednesday june reno thursday june san fransisco thursday june sunday june i was wondering if anyone could send me any information of car shows swap meets drag meets model car shows etc during this period can anybody tell me when the pomona swap meet is on this year also any places to visit eg car museums private collections your collection etc any bit of information is appreciated i am also interested in finding some model cars scale models i am intersted in amc cars of particular interest is amx javelin scrambler rebel machine and others if you have any kits plastics diecast etc and are interested in selling them tell me i will be interested i can also send bring you models of australian high performance cars if you are interested please reply by email to johnt spri levels unisa edu au thanks john tsimbinos
rec.autos	aussie needs info on usa car shows swap meets hi from australia i am a car enthusiast in australia i am particularly interested in american muscle cars of the s and s all makes amc ford chrysler mopar gm i will be in the usa for weeks from may nd to june chicago sun may thursday may denver friday may sunday may austin texas monday may friday may oklahoma city friday may monday may anaheim california tuesday may thursday may las vegas nevada friday may sunday may grand canion monday may tuesday june las angeles san diego and vicinity wednesday june sunday june june south lake tahoe cal sunday june wednesday june reno thursday june san fransisco thursday june sunday june i was wondering if anyone could send me any information of car shows swap meets drag meets model car shows etc during this period can anybody tell me when the pomona swap meet is on this year also any places to visit eg car museums private collections your collection etc any bit of information is appreciated i am also interested in finding some model cars scale models i am intersted in amc cars of particular interest is amx javelin scrambler rebel machine and others if you have any kits plastics diecast etc and are interested in selling them tell me i will be interested i can also send bring you models of australian high performance cars if you are interested please reply by email to johnt spri levels unisa edu au thanks john tsimbinos
rec.autos	thunderbird i just bought a t bird and would like any info on a club in and around the the b c coast eric thomas
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr hasler ascom ch kevinh hslrswi hasler ascom ch kevinh writes in article c h qz kya boi hp com wesf boi hp com wes fujii writes brian larose larose austin cs utk edu wrote i never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was to hit the car have us stop to check out the damage and then jump us and take the truck please be aware of folks and for your own good please don t stop sad this sort of thing is on the rise across the country south florida is getting a lot of national tv coverage on the subject where vacationers are being attacked and some killed in schemes similar to this make that worldwide coverage i know numerous people who were planning holidays to the florida and have now chosen another non us destination you expect this sort of thing perhaps in third world countries but not the us in response to this and other articles that have been written on this subject i would like to say that it is not just a us problem in southern ontario last summer there were several instances along the where people mainly truckers were shot at from overpasses there are many sick people out there and it makes you wonder what the worlds coming to kevinh hasler ascom ch
rec.autos	re jeep wrangler opini in article db vu vlsi ee vill edu mobasser vu vlsi ee vill edu bijan mobasseri writes how do i square this with a respectable resale value easy if it s expensive to buy new it s gonna be expensive to buy used a patently false statement try this logic on an alfa in fact marketplace has a wonderufl mechanism to adjust the value of the cars that are overpriced by the manufacturer if it is expensive to buy new it is not necessarily expnesive to buy used in fact it could be real cheap to buy used depending what that car is of course note that i do not question your statements on the reliability of wrangler i have never owned one driven one or been in one i do love to have one though what i don t understand is why this apparent neglect of quality for so many years has not filtered down into the used market is jeep so intoxicating so irresistable and so seductive as to make its purchase a fatal attraction bijan yep they are popular vehicles you don t see a lot of previous model year ones sitting on dealer s lots for any lenghth of time after the new ones are out the things sell they are popular because they are popular and high priced new they are high price used very simple i knew they were overpriced when i bought it i knew they had a terrible reliability record when i bought it but i didn t expect anything like i got especially with a dealer network unable to repair it personal experience has quickly cured me of my infatuation with the machine dave
rec.autos	re too fast jimf centerline com jim frost writes there are a few things to keep in mind about europe since you brought it up my autobahn knowledge is admittedly second hand but i believe the following to be true my knowledge about driving in the u s is also second hand but i think i can correct your statements about our autobahn drivers are much better disciplined in europe than they are here oh yeah that would be paradise in fact you can forget it from all i ve heard from my u s relatives drivers esp here in germany are much more agg ressive but not disciplined one of my relatives a l a resident hired a car at the nuernberg airport and went about miles to our home he said then that he grew about year older during this ride and swore he d never drive a car in germany again this was in and he kept his promise the situation now is even worse as effect of the increased volume of traffic what you mean by better disciplined should perhaps be considered cautious due to fear when driving around here you always have to take into consideration that the majority of the other drivers absolutely relies on you they expect that nobody fails or sleeps many of them exploit this by driving as fast as their car can go of course only where that is allowed you might think dream on so any mistake you make is a very high risk to your health and if you re ex posed to such a situation from your very first day as a driver you learn to handle it or you lose that s the way i and most people i know experience our traffic situation whether you think this is pleasant or efficient is up to you i think we handle a very high volume of traffic and that at high speeds with modest compared to the volume and decreasing rates of lethal accidents otoh more and more people esp women dislike driving because they feel overtaxed and threatened and each accident is one accident too much the roads comprising the autobahn are much better designed than they are here and usually include animal fences this makes them far more predictable than most us highways better designed and maintained may be but animal fences are very rare auto bahnen and many other streets have guard rails i hope that s the right word a plank made from thick steel sheet fixed on uprights it s about feet high those guard rails are designed for keeping vehicles on the road smaller animals can crawl under the plank bigger ones can easily jump over it the point is that esp larger animals are very rare in germany they tend also to be very timid accidents caused by animals are a neglegible danger not all of europe is the autobahn most places in europe have speed limits that aren t out of line with what we used to have in the us if my friends weren t lying to me they re typically not much higher than km h you re right there are speed linits even on the major part of the autobahn but the attitude towards driving see above seems to be very similar to that in germany i ve been in france switzerland italy austria spain belgium the netherlands besides that you really can t rely on the residents abiding the local speed limits i ve got quite a lot of practise k miles and i m used to travel at mph fyi with a car even smaller than a rabbit but i consider driving on the highways round paris or milano really a thrill i strongly suspect you won t find a lot of rabbit owners doing mph nearly km h on the autobahn but i could be wrong sorry but you ll find quite a lot rabbit class car or even smaller mine is a peugeot owners going that fast small cars with much hp are very hip over here and most people buying such cars aren t afraid to let them run some people have no respect for their own lives i disagree the size or weight of a car is rather irrelevant formula cars weigh less than kg and the drivers have a chance to survive accidents at mph or higher otoh when crashing against a solid object at mph it makes no difference whether you sit in a porsche a mercedes a tank or on a bicycle your re dead bye stefan stefan dalibor dalibor immd uni erlangen de and now for the next case in kangaroo court i accuse you of being the reincarnation of adolf hitler i don t think that mere denials will be sufficient you will have to submit to examinations by a parapsychologist that i personally select perry metzger pmetzger shearson com in article in news admin policy
rec.autos	re ad said nissan altima best seller i too was puzzled by this obvious untruth what i think is going on is that nissan claims that the altima is the best selling new car namelplate in the us i think i have this near verbatim lee iaccoca s statistics dept would have been proud of that sentence note that the corolla prism are also new designs but hey are not new nameplates i guess nissan doesn t even sell as many altimas as toyota does corollas or there would be no nameplate qualifier
rec.autos	re super mega automobile sighting s exotics together give out the address i ll drive by and take a look myself then post stephen phillips atlanta response center atlanta ga home of the braves
rec.autos	re tires for ford ranger pickup i have had good luck with my ranger and yokohama s m tires the tires have been wearing well and even the few times i have hauled heavy loads they have done well
rec.autos	re ford and the automobile rwong eis calstate edu russel wong writes hello my name is russell wong and i am doing a research project on henry ford and his automobile i need information on whether ford is partially responsible for all of the car accidents ya he cut me off on the other day he drives like a crazy person i d have to say he s responsible for most accidents they really should pull his licence steve alan kulwicki winston cup champion
rec.autos	re ford probe opinions centered around the gt in article apr sco com nathanp sco com nathan writes jeremy g mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions of the ford probe ala how they do in the long run repair records reliability mileage etc i am fixing to buy a car in the next few months aiming toward something a little bigger than a typical small car and with a little more power i am considering the mx probe accord corolla and the sx i bought a probe gt with the pep a last july now at miles after debating over the sentra se r nx mx mr stealth prelude and celica the car design is different than earlier years so it s too early to see its reliability so far for what it s worth my comments my dislikes shutting door with windows up from inside rarely makes good wind seal some other owners on the ford probe world std com mailing list have commented about this problem but i haven t seen it happen on my month old probe gt i think this may be something that ford has corrected since the initial batch of cars also someone said that ford has issued a service bulletin to inform dealers about how to correct this problem so you may be able to get your dealer to fix it headlights have stuck up a few times weather air conditioning broke miles pressure cycling switch condensation around rear washer fluid container doesn t drain completely haven t seen any of these problems nor have i seen these mentioned on the mailing list so these might just be having bad luck with these crammed engine little hope for do it yourselfers typical definitely parts somewhat more expensive than normal ford parts underside plastic doesn t like sharp driveways and speedbumps typical assembly gripes tape on radiator screw fell out of dash seat seams not stitched properly hopefully just a fluke no problems like these either i haven t been able to find any obvious places where they screwed up ford only gives key with the car c mon ford spend an extra few pennies hmmm i got two keys with my car something tells me you got stiffed by your dealer on this actually if you count the credit card key that came in the owner s binder i got keys but since the credit card key doesn t have any teeth cut in it yet i guess i won t count it rear hatch has no padding on corners when up i m waiting for the day when i bash my head on the corner horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center personal preference the latter is probably because of the air bag it s pretty much takes up all the space where you d expect to find the horn speaking of the horn i was surprised to find that the probe comes with one of those nice merican sounding horns instead of the japanese sounding kind the previous probes had japanese horns tires fling dirt mud onto side of car yeah not very badly but enough to be annoying sometimes my likes engine design valves sounds smoothness power mileage torque definitely handling very good for fwd understeer only at limits transmission the speed is a must usable instrumentation lovely readable analog everywhere very little torque steer at full power much better than the sho i drive stability at mph high gearing though low cowl good visibility in front heated outside mirrors nice in fog never tested in freezing weather abs air bag see above rear seats fold down i have few rear seat passengers so a trunk not important no shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still tires vr goodyear eagles left hoping for k i agree strongly with all of the above especially about the engine the interior is very very nice too very pleasing to the eye and ergonomically sound i drive it to and from work each day on relatively smooth roads and most noticable thing is that the probe s suspension doesn t like potholes when you test drive one find a potholed road somewhere around town and see if the jarring you get is tolerable yes this car s stiff suspension isn t for everyone i personally like it but if you find it a little harsh but otherwise like the car i d strongly suggest looking into the mx if you have passengers by all means bring them along too they ll find that they have no room in the back and you ll find that the car rides differently if that s better is up to you the problem with the back seat is that there s no leg room plenty of head room though shorter people fit back there without any complaints so long as the seat they are sitting behind is pulled forward a bit to give them a place to put their feet also there s a lot of glass around you which i wasn t expecting the temperature inside the car gets pretty hot in the summer my back seat passengers now very few complain about the lack of ventilation you may want to consider that when combined with the heat the power moonroof can greatly improve the ventilation throughout the car i really enjoy the moonroof by the way but then i ve always been a sucker for open air driving no leakage problems or anything like that yet i ve heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine i haven t heard about this one i know that some of the very early probes and maybe had problems with prematurely rusting mufflers which ford will replace at no charge but i haven t heard about anything like this concerning the probes i haven t had any real trouble with this car outside of a cv joint boot that was leaking but the dealer took care of that promptly and even gave me a free rental car for the day and a half that i was without my car i was quite happy with the way they handled especially considering that i was expecting the worst from them from what i ve heard it sounds like ford mazda had some qc problems with the probe and probably mx when they first went into production but i think these problems have mostly been corrected at this point that s almost always to be expected with a completely new car like this though hope this helps chuck chuck kesler internet chuck eos ncsu edu unix systems programmer us mail box ncsu campus engineering computer operations raleigh nc usa north carolina state university phone
rec.autos	sticky lock on tailgate my toyota runner has a rolldown rear window with a keylock switch it sticky on me yesterday it was tough to get the key to work and it also happened to stick on in the up direction so the stalled motor was powered all night killing the battery i d like to try to lubricate the lock switch what should i lubricate the lock with email please thanx ken don t drink american corporate swill support you local micro brewery me
rec.autos	renting from alamo hello netters i m visiting the us i m from sweden in august i will probably rent a chevy beretta from alamo i ve been quoted for a week for additional days this would include free driving distance but not local taxes baltimore they also told me all insurance thats necessary is included but i doubt that cause a friend rented a car last year and it turned out he needed a lot more insurance than what s included in the base price but on the other hand he didn t rent it from alamo does anyone have some info on this is a rip off probability that i ll be needing more insurance is the beretta a good rental car thanx markus
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should be an option gm at least is heading in that direction one of the post sale questions they asked me was if i d like the choice of a cigarette liter or an accessory plug and another whether i d like the choice of an ashtray or a cup holder the geo storms have the cigarette lighter vs accessory plug option which did not exist in the i bought i m not sure about the ash tray vs cup holder it s a step in the right direction the ashtray does make a convenient change holder so it s not completely useless jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re no haggle deals save you can be sure they wouldn t do it if it wasn t to their advantage mark
rec.autos	re ford probe opinions centered around the gt in article apr ncsu edu chuck eos ncsu edu chuck kesler writes rear hatch has no padding on corners when up i m waiting for the day when i bash my head on the corner horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center personal preference the latter is probably because of the air bag it s pretty much takes up all the space where you d expect to find the horn all toyotas have airbags with a real horn come on how hard can it be to put a little pressure plate there i hope toyota doesn t follow everyone else and make the horns little buttons that i wouldn t want to fumble for john john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn t it the black adder
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in article c r y f d mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes i guess i wasn t clear enough here i said the roads were designed for speeds of or so and still be safe the current will add a saftey margin they were designed for speeds of upwards of i forget the exact spec but for military vehicles that s in a dodge powerwagon not in a ford taurus
rec.autos	re where can i get a new york taxi in article c r a rb srgenprp sr hp com almanb sr hp com bob alman writes hose h o s e dork d o r k
rec.autos	super mega automobile sighting s exotics together alright beat this automobile sighting driving along just a hair north of atlanta i noticed an old run down former car dealership which appeared to deal with and repair older rare or exotic foreign sports cars i saw ford gt the famous model from ford that seemed to win most of its races in the late s including le mans or times two jensen interceptors one a convertable one a hatchback porsche boring compared to the rest three ferarries a mondial a prepared for racing and a red s model that i couldn t identify and at the bottom a late s mg convertable outside there was a rotting rover saloon which was never regularly sold in the u s and in the showroom there was a small italian body either an alpha romeo or a lancia it was about the size of an austin mini the trunklid was missing exposing a boot with a voltage regulator in the upper left corner of the wall and a chunk of metal removed from the floor on the right hand side as if something would leave the trunk and go to the outside from here the taillights looked like they would be the round type if they were there does anyone know what the make of this one is certainly made my day graham e thomas blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute of technology blah blah blah blah blah internet grahamt oit gatech edu blah blah blah blah blah
rec.autos	re mercury capri restrictions the restriction could have to do with the car being a convertible a lot of paronoid laws were passed concerning convertibles in the s these states may require greater rollover protection than the capri affords thatch harvey thatch harvey uucp no longer valid domain thatchh hplsla hp com hewlett packard lake stevens instrument division lake stevens wa merkur xr ti suzuki gsx g prince sr d sports racer
rec.autos	re removing rain x coat on the front windshield any tips if you want a summer without rain you re in the wrong place you must not have been here a whole year yet keep the rain x handy my friend thatch thatch harvey uucp no longer valid domain thatchh hplsla hp com hewlett packard lake stevens instrument division lake stevens wa merkur xr ti suzuki gsx g prince sr d sports racer
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article c r y f d mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes i guess i wasn t clear enough here i said the roads were designed for speeds of or so and still be safe the current will add a saftey margin they were designed for speeds of upwards of i forget the exact spec but for military vehicles that s in a dodge powerwagon not in a ford taurus ah yes the powerwagon now there was a vehicle that today s cars can t touch in terms of high speed road holding ability
rec.autos	re blast to the past amh ns cc lehigh edu alois m himsl writes be worthwhile or how about something like the old mgb with new technology just think about it the old style with upgraded safety features and perhaps a natural gas operated engine for less than k i think it would go over well what is your opinion al h well the mgb is currently in production for the english market built by rover it now has a v improved suspention and a slightly updated body too bad it s only available in gb and would set one of us back about graham e thomas blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute of technology blah blah blah blah blah internet grahamt oit gatech edu blah blah blah blah blah
rec.autos	re zx or sc ip ns cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes i m getting a car in the near future i ve narrow it down to zx and sc which might be a better choice thanks for your opnion danny i ve been asking myself this same question for the past year so if when you find out would you please share the magistic answer with me the way i see it right now work twice as hard so you can have both cheers issa my suggestion is why not work twice as hard like issa suggested above then get acura nsx enjoy seb
rec.autos	re grand am cyl in article holcomb apr wgermany ctron com holcomb ctron com edgar w ii holcomb writes in article apr remus rutgers edu wilmott remus rutgers edu ray wilmott writes hi all a while back i was asking for info about a few different models the grand am being one of them response was generally favorable one thing often repeated was go for the v for some real power point well taken but does anybody have any input on the cylinders both the standard ohc and the quad ray the high output quad delivers hp for the wf quad whereas the l v offered in the grand am delivers hp i own a beretta gtz ooppss the v in the grand am is the litre not the the is a downsized version of buicks litre v the v goes in the beretta and corsica
rec.autos	re buick heater controls i had the exactly same problem with my lesabre it was also from cal what i did was go to the local junkyard and pick up a diaphragm from a lesabre with the same heater set up it worked for me but a little bit slow to change from vents to defogger better than nothing
rec.autos	re improvements in automatic transmissions in article qugvu ai quad wfunet wfu edu hagenjd wfu edu jeff hagen writes thanx to all those who responded particularly those never driven an xxx but here s what it s like guys ok we all know that new age at s are great in traffic and do a satisfactory job in acceleration when you keep your foot buried in the carpet my question regards downshifting not downshifting to pass at s are good at this now but manually moving the lever to or at a point where you would downshift a manual e g approaching a red light or a curve or just tooling around a parking lot in st or nd w o shifting this is why i m still a manual trans bigot the downshifting for deceleration seems so natural when i try this in an automatic the tranny doesn t seem to understand what i want addendum isn t it great after downshifting while approaching that red light when the light goes green and you re already on cam or the turbo s already spooled up zippppppppppp hagen hagenjd ac wfu edu i have a grand am with auto and quad around the gear selector there is a plastic strip which covers the space so you can t see inside anyway i took the cover off and cut the end of this long strip to a specific length the strip curls up into a cirlce at one end inside anyway by doing this the strip can t feed into the lip that circles it so i can push button pull down and the gear shifter will only go back to from drive no accidental hitting first i drive around town in to keep the revs up shift to drive above and pull down to when coming up to lights if i want if i am eating food i drive in drive there are probably aftermarket shift kits that will accomplish the same thing porsche s tip tronic automatic can be driven like an auto or put into mode tip up upshift tip down downshift of course there is an override so you don t redline the engine
rec.autos	re braindead drivers who don t look ahead in article tekig pen tek com jitloke tekig pen tek com jit loke lim writes in article apr cbnewsd cb att com hhm cbnewsd cb att com herschel h mayo writes anybody is going anywhere so i block the would be passers not only for my own good but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it ah we are looking for good people just like you we are a very concerned group of citizens who are absolutely disgusted at the way that the majority of drivers simply disobey traffic rules like going above the speed limit passing on our right and riding our tails while all the while we respectfully abide by the rules of this great country and maintain the mandated speed limits with our calibrated certified cruise controls while keeping the respectful car length distance mph speed how many times have you been ticked off by some moron who jumps ahead in the car lengths that you have left between you and the vehicle ahead of you while driving mph finally you have an option we are a totally member supported group that perform functions for our own good for the good of this great country but most of all for those unfortunate ones that are too stupid to realize it bless their souls for a paltry you can join citizens for rationally advanced piloting c r a p a non profit members only society but but but there is a slight hitch the initiation rite to be a full fledged member of this exclusive club you must proof that you are able to be in the fast lane of the busiest interstate in your area keep the correct car lenth mph speedand i know this can be difficult with those morons around not let anybody pass you not in the next lane not in the slow lane not in the breakdown lane not nowhere for a complete list of acceptable interstates and times send and by the way over of our members are highly regarded attorneys in the auto field and they are completely absolutely positively in the business only to serve your best interests as a testament to their virtues they will give members off the initial consultation fee feel free to drop me a line at your earliest convenience and remember only speed kills jit of course you are a bunch of arrogant lawyers who know whats best for the rest of us you are doing such a wonderful job with our judicial system getting all the criminals off i bow to your superior intellect not to mention the fees you collect from us poor slobs who get tickets from speeding state police officers so you can soak is when we go to court i just love lawyer jokes don t you c
rec.autos	re alarm systems are they worthwhile in article apr news eng convex com dodson convex com dave dodson writes is it worthwhile to get an alarm system on a new car although others have in the past and will continue to disagree i think that it is worthwhile to get an alarm what features are important i think that it is important to protect your trunk engine bay all doors i d get flashing lights led s mounted on the drivers and passenger door and a relay to disable engine operation toss in a glass break sensor and shock sensor door lock and unlock two remotes and panic feature are also nice to have most important is where you have the installation done some places may cost a little more but a poorly installed alarm no matter how much it cost will be a major burden what features are unimportant imo things like engine starters voice alarms window sunroof open and close and most other conveniences dave dodson dodson convex com convex computer corporation richardson texas larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo v fahrvergnugen forever the fact that i need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn t understand anyway
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article oasys dt navy mil glouie oasys dt navy mil george louie writes in rec autos nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should be an option why make it an option you can use the ashtray to store coins and other small things which come in handy use the cigarette lighter as an electrical outlet for all types of handy gadgets cd players vacuum cleaners flashlights etc i don t want to pay extra for these things and if you don t use them they don t hurt you i use the ashtray to keep change and other items in i converted the cigarette lighter into a volume control knob for my in trunk subwoofer george larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo v fahrvergnugen forever the fact that i need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn t understand anyway
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr erich triumf ca music erich triumf ca fred w bach writes in article c r iy v ssd intel com jrowell ssd intel com janet rowell writes could we plase cease this discussion i fail to see why people feel the need to expound upon this issue for days and days on end these areas are not meant for this type of discussion if you feel the need to do such things please take your thought elsewhere thanks exactly my point there is a lot of hostility to and from teenagers if you follow the news for the northwest usa you will have heard that a group of year old boys barely out of the teens certainly their outlook was developed during their teens just shot and killed an innocent little girl riding in a car in the seattle area when her mother who was driving honked her horn at the car with the boys in it this is really upsetting and makes my stomach turn as it would any parent s doesn t your heart just go out to that poor mother teenagers both drive cars and are involved in automotive vandalism and crime maybe someone on this newsgroup has had specific experience in dealing with violent teenage offenders like these kids are at the same it seems sad that people lose all perspective when they here about a case of violence by teenagers for a little perspective how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children seniors the homeless did you read about all the kids at stanford who spent their spring breaks helping out in inner city areas what about the hundreds of volunteers teenagers and others who worked to clean up the mess after the rodney king riots in la have you gone to your local high school play recently attended the school orchestra performances have you seen how many kids volunteer to pick up trash plant trees do walk a thons how many kids have tried to sell you stuff to benefit organizations they belong to how many girl scout cookies have you bought how many chocolate bars for good causes the media picks up on all the anomalies the sensational what about the wonderful teenagers all over the place who work hard at school get good grades go to college or to work and make a real contribution to our society all humans are teenagers at some time in their lives mother theresa was a teenager and so was geoffrey dahmer it is really sad to see so many people who buy the sensational reporting of the media as some kind of reflection of the world today it is a reflection of what is happening on the outer fringes of our society and nothing more rf
rec.autos	re alarm systems are they worthwhile in article apr news eng convex com dave dodson dodson convex com writes is it worthwhile to get an alarm system on a new car what features are important what features are unimportant that is a question that can only be answered by yourself and where you live if you live in a place where crime is apparent then it might be a good idea to get one simply as a deterrent however if a professional thief wants your vehicle its as good as gone no matter what you do but to slow down any thieves it would be a good idea to get the basic options that would be ignition kill or fuel cut off a flashing red led these two are basic to a decent alarm system to slow down the criminal some more get a steering wheel lock that should be sufficient to persuade the thief to find an easier target but then there s always car jacking why is life so confusing i hope i helped somewhat jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton oh e mail jyow desire wright edu
rec.autos	fast idle on ford ranger it did it again this morning my ford ranger was idling at rpm ok so i exaggerated a little but it was idling very fast it has a liter carburated engine in it and no blipping of the throttle would cause the idle to drop back to normal i don t think the linkage is stuck what can i do to fix this problem this has been a problem from time to time but has straightened itself out until now i don t have a tach but by gauging by the sound of the engine it is idling about twice as fast as it should be this is down from what it was idling at when i pulled up at a stop light many thanks for any suggestions les les bartel i m going to live forever intergraph corporation or die trying electronics division ljbartel ingr com or ljbartel naomi b b ingr com
rec.autos	re ad said nissan altima best seller i guess that makes altima the most generic car in the us
rec.autos	re no haggle deals save a local dealer is advertising no negotiation necessary make you wonder
rec.autos	re ford probe opinions centered around the gt jeremy g mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions of the ford probe ala how they do in the long run repair records reliability mileage etc i am fixing to buy a car in the next few months aiming toward something a little bigger than a typical small car and with a little more power i am considering the mx probe accord corolla and the sx the probe is the youngest of the bunch thus my interest in opinions but every magazine and ratings book places it as an excellent value btw the sx is rear wheel drive and is due for a re design for thanks in advance while i don t read normally read this group i was looking for valentine radar information sigh maybe in the faq and came across your posting i bought a probe gt with the pep a last july now at miles after debating over the sentra se r nx mx mr stealth prelude and celica check this month s consumer reports for previous probe records my criteria a fun car with abs airbag over hp and less than k i thought about a turbo but checking with insurance people ruled that out the tri star cars eclipse talon etc were out since they don t have an air bag ditto for the mustang also no abs the se r nx m fell into the pocket rocket category a good used car buy the mx was almost there but rolled more than i liked i didn t like the prelude dash instrumentation at all too weird for me the mr has a much smaller non passenger space than i needed so out that went the celica was ok but underpowered when loaded with options and somewhat overpriced too in non turbo form i never considered the sx since it didn t have an airbag i did look at it for its rwd virtues but that s it the corolla never entered my mind i should have looked at the mitsubishi vr dodge stealth more since my list was exhausted i bought the probe the car design is different than earlier years so it s too early to see its reliability so far for what it s worth my comments my dislikes shutting door with windows up from inside rarely makes good wind seal headlights have stuck up a few times weather air conditioning broke miles pressure cycling switch condensation around rear washer fluid container doesn t drain completely crammed engine little hope for do it yourselfers typical parts somewhat more expensive than normal ford parts underside plastic doesn t like sharp driveways and speedbumps typical assembly gripes tape on radiator screw fell out of dash seat seams not stitched properly hopefully just a fluke ford only gives key with the car c mon ford spend an extra few pennies rear hatch has no padding on corners when up i m waiting for the day when i bash my head on the corner horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center personal preference tires fling dirt mud onto side of car my likes engine design valves sounds smoothness power mileage torque definitely handling very good for fwd understeer only at limits transmission the speed is a must usable instrumentation lovely readable analog everywhere very little torque steer at full power much better than the sho i drive stability at mph high gearing though low cowl good visibility in front heated outside mirrors nice in fog never tested in freezing weather abs air bag see above rear seats fold down i have few rear seat passengers so a trunk not important no shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still tires vr goodyear eagles left hoping for k as you can see i m primarily interested in the engine while it doesn t have the uummmph of a big liter car or the turbo rush the big selling point for me was the all aluminum value liter engine the overall car is a good buy for the money that market segment hasn t changed much since july prelude vtec honda del sol i drive it to and from work each day on relatively smooth roads and most noticable thing is that the probe s suspension doesn t like potholes when you test drive one find a potholed road somewhere around town and see if the jarring you get is tolerable if you have passengers by all means bring them along too they ll find that they have no room in the back and you ll find that the car rides differently if that s better is up to you also there s a lot of glass around you which i wasn t expecting the temperature inside the car gets pretty hot in the summer my back seat passengers now very few complain about the lack of ventilation you may want to consider that when combined with the heat i ve heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine leather and the keyless entry system weren t available when i got the car so i can t comment on them i got the car before it was officially announced i prefer cloth to leather anyway i wouldn t want this car in the snow the suspension is too rough for the inevitable surprise potholes tires aren t meant for snow and the seats assume that you re not wearing lots of thick clothing rain is much better water generally beads off the windshield at freeway speed the windshield wiper controls are easy and understandable and i barely hydroplaned once with the eagles and i was really trying there is also a definite lack of cup holder small storage places the gt has map holders below the speakers in the door but they re rigid plastic that could fit two cassettes or cd s max the center console storage bin arm rest has cup holder and the back of the front seats have a cloth pouch but that s it no change holders quite a let down from the sho and the probe is definitely not a people mover car or an econo box car lastly don t store wet car covers in the back the foam will soak the water up and the result will not smell pleasant nathan nathan sco com jeremy mereness support ye olde disclaimer zonker cmu edu internet free the above represent my fast project cmu gsia software opinions alone b s mechanical engineering cmu ya gotta love it every silver lining s got a touch of grey this year marks the th anniversary of the bill of rights mx nathan sco com no comment they re coming to take me away ha ha napolean xiv
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon we are working on gas solid adsorption air con system for auto applications in this kind of system the energy for regenerating the adsorbent is from the exhaust gas anyone interested in this mail email me or follow up this thread we may have a discussion on prospects of this technology max max g q lu phd internet mgqlu ntu ac sg division of thermal enginerring bitnet mgqlu ntuvax bitnet school of mpe nanyang technological university phone nanyang avenue singapore fax
rec.autos	re warning please read tobias convex com allen tobias writes in article apr virginia edu ejv j virginia edu erik vel this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly a small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks i don t recall if she made it but i think she was comatose for a month or so and doctors weren t holding out hope that she d live what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold society as we have known it it coming apart at the seams the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is no big deal kid s see hundreds on murderous acts on tv we can abort children on demand and kill the sick and old at will so why be surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don t care because the message they hear is life is cheap at well people fortunatly or unfortunatly only the us is experiencing the devaluation of human life among developed nations i am an american but i was raised in europe where the worst thing that can happen to somebody is get his car broken into or have his pocket picked by slaves or russian refugees of cource there will be some nutcases but thats extremely rare i e in greece you can walk through any neighborhood at any time during the night without even worrying in germany you can walk the sidewalks at am and not even look behind your back at the sanitation crews that clean the streets to a sparkling cleen whoever of you have been there you know what i am saying i dont have any easy answers but if we as a nation do some selfcritisism we might get somewhere of course these postings sould be in soc culture us but if we reduce crime here it ll mean less car insurance rates thus we could spend more money on modifing our cars now my posting is rec autos tech revelant vlasis theodore software engineer idb mobile communications sig under development
rec.autos	re warning please read neilson seoul mpr ca robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselve and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is imminent steve heracleous you do have the power steve you can do it why don t you why don t you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do a good job though don t miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean ditto i you dont do it yourself nobody will unless i am behind you so both of us can shoot them bastards
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr rtfm mlb fl us gwalker rtfm mlb fl us grayson walker writes why crawl under the car at all i have a machine i got for my boat that pulls the oil out under suction through the dip stick tube it does an excellent job and by moving the suction tube around you can get more old oil out than by using the drain plug i think i paid at e b marine the oil goes into a steel gal can wait until it cools and decant into your favorite device i use soft drink bottles easy to take them down to the local oil recycle center this does sound good but i heard it tends to leave more grit etc in the oil pan also i ve been told to change the old when it s hot before the grit has much time to settle any opinions bryan welch amateur radio n sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer it s all opinion everything so there
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c joit e bcstec ca boeing com neil bcstec ca boeing com neil williams writes larose austin cs utk edu brian larose writes this just a warning to everybody on the net watch out for folks standing next to the road or on overpasses they can cause serious harm to you and your car just a cliff notes version of my story follows pm last night i was travelling on the interstate here in knoxville i was taking an offramp exit to another interstate and my wife suddenly screamed and something large hit the side of my truck we slowed down but after looking back to see the vandals standing there we drove on to the police station she did get a good look at the guy and saw him cock his arm with something the size of a cinderblock but i never saw him we are very lucky the truck sits up high on the road if it would have hit her window it would have killed her the police are looking for the guy but in all likelyhood he is gone i am a very good driver knock on wood but it was night time and i never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was to hit the car have us stop to check out the damage and then jump us and take the truck please be aware of folks and for your own good please don t stop peace brian larose larose cs utk edu essary rd knoxville tn as long as we re on the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding in the front of a toyota pickup heading south on interstate north of seattle wa someone threw a rock of an overpass and hit our windshield not by accident i m sure it was impossible to get up to the overpass quickly to see who did it we figured it was kids reported it and left a couple of years ago it happend again and killed a guy at my company he was in his mid fourties and left behind a wife and children turned out there was a reformatory for juviniles a few blocks away they caught the year old that did it they put a cover over the overpass what else could they do i don t think i ll over forget this story in des moines iowa about a year ago some kid dropped a rock from an overpass and hit car just behind the windshield it put a dent in the roof so i guess i was lucky it hit metal it s frustrating that we can t do much bother the city government to put covers on all overpasses slow down speed up a bit when driving under all overpasses in the city i like the first better but that will take time and lots of people talking to the city governments just another bryan welch amateur radio n sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer it s all opinion everything so there
rec.autos	re too fast boyle cactus org craig boyle writes the quality of autobahns is something of a myth the road surface isn t much different to a typical tx freeway they are better in terms of lighting safety signs roadmarkings etc they light the highways in texas funny everywhere else i ve been they only light em at junctions i won t even get into how much road markings vary between states and localities except to say that there are some areas where markings are essentially nonexistant than most of the roads here a dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at will kill you at don t get me wrong i love to it would have to be quite severe i don t recall any us freeway without road damage warnings that i would regard as unsafe at in any decent well damped car i suspect you have very limited experience us freeways vary dramatically particularly between states i can name a number of interstate highways in various parts of the country where would be very optimistic in any car i m not sure what you call quite severe in terms of road deviations but i suspect every single bridge junction on i through ct would be considered so they re hard to take at mph that s not the only interstate i ve seen with such deviations but it s one i drive frequently texas is pretty much an edge case you can t assume that everywhere has roads in such good condition such flat terrain and such wide open spaces it just ain t so jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast wharf wrat rites they were designed for speeds of upwards of i forget the exact spec but for military vehicles that s in a dodge powerwagon not in a ford taurus ever once in a while you still see a reference to the super slab system as interstate and defense highways but whether the military has much of anything that goes on the road is another matter a few of their most whomped up diesel trucks maybe load permitting the military surplus stuff i ve driven jeep classic willys kaiser amc pre independent suspension and power wagons slant in a crew cab pickup weren t exactly congenial at highway speeds and i wouldn t swear any of them would do except as a bedload on a semi you just gotta love the standard military tire too or at least the one they used to use designed circa ww ii as a compromise between traction in icky sticky goo and longevity on sharp rocks and so forth it s quite ill adapted to high speeds on civilian roadways for those who can t remember what they look like imagine a mountain bike tire with a road rib in the middle scaled up to car size oh yeah and narrow too one of the standard mods for civilizing a surplus jeep was to install tires and wheels that reflected some of the advancements made in ride and handling since d day but the point made by wharfie and others still stands if you re going to do in a mil spec power wagon or a jeep or a tank transporter or other unwieldy rubber tired vehicle anywhere i d suggest the american interstate your safe speed there tends to be limited more by your car and skills road maintenance and the swarms of fools around you the roads were designed for going like the devil naturally neither i nor my employer advocates unsafe or unlawful driving joe just another personal opinion from the people s republic of berkeley
rec.autos	importing volvo well i m afraid the time has come my rice burner has finally died i d always promised my wife that we would do a scandanavian tour when my car died and pick up a volvo in sweden drive it around and then import it home can anyone give me advice on feasibility and relative costs references where i might learn more personal experience please email thanks
rec.autos	selling a car through a car hunter anybody got any good bad experience with selling their car through one of those car hunters i m selling a dodge stealth r t and i was contacted by this company called the markham group based out of illinois they said they have buyers in my area interested in my car or they wouldn t be talking to me they talked to me for a good minutes asking everything about my car and said they could sell it no problem they guaranteed that if they didn t sell my car in days i would get my money back and since i charged it i m protected by federal law which states that if i m not satisfied i would get a refund which is true they federal expressed all the paperwork to me which had a contract stating their policy about the days and such i called up the bbb in illinois and they do not have a file on them which is good news so they definitely are a legitimate company but so far it s been over week and i have gotten nothing so how effective are these types of companies anybody care to share their experiences
rec.autos	re trading in a car that s not paid for pointers please in article fibercom com rrg rtp fibercom com rhonda gaines writes i m planning on purchasing a new car and will be trading in my mazda mx dx i ve still got more years to pay on it how does that get taken into account when i purchase my new car does the dealership pay off my car and add on the amount they had to pay to the purchase price of the new car someone please explain this to me if you don t already know it you should call the bank credit union finance company that holds the loan on your present car and get the current payoff cost if you are trading in your current car on the new car subtract the payoff amount from the trade in the dealer is giving you if this turns out to be a negative number you need to reconsider the deal subtract this difference from the price of the new car this is the size of the loan you will need for the new car the dealer will take care of paying off the loan on your old car out of the money you give them when you pick up your new car at least that s how it worked for me years ago in ohio thanks rhonda joseph staudt telxon corp joes telxon com p o box usenet is like tetris for people who still akron oh remember how to read x j heller
rec.autos	re ford and the automobile ford and his automobile i need information on whether ford is partially responsible for all of the car accidents and the depletion of the ozone layer also any other additional information will be greatly appreciated thanks sssssoooooooooooo its all his fault thank god louis chevrolet is innocent and that guy diesel he otto feel guilty stephen phillips atlanta response center atlanta ga home of the braves
rec.autos	re warning please read rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don t read that much about violence against teenagers such as george bush burying alive tens of thousands of unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying to surrender with bulldozers on the other hand i think it is true without singling out teenagers for blame that violence is more socially acceptable than it used to be those of us who d like to discourage violence have plenty of work to do with people of all ages
rec.autos	water in trunk of probe water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend s ford probe every once in a while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk i would guess this usually happens after a good thunder storm a few qs is this a common problem where are the drain holes located for the hatch thanks for any info tom tom szeto no not those peanuts the ones on the tszeto sneezy ts stratus com bottom ggnuuaahuuhh include disclaimer h homer simpson
rec.autos	re eagle talon tsi lemon in rec autos jay lorenzana u uicvm uic edu wrote dear netters i am looking to buy a used eagle talon or tsi awd i would be concerned about how the car was driven and how well it was maintained i own a turbocharged one and i would never buy a turbocharged vehicle unless i knew the owner and his her driving maintenance habits question is that the tsi awd was mentioned in the april consumer reports to a car to avoid i have been wondering about that myself the awd models and the s were identical except for the abs option in particular the manual transmission yes some owners had problems with the transaxles using synthetic lubricants in the transaxles solved the problem in most cases the problem was not unique to the awds however it was common to all models the galant vr and gsx had the same transaxle but i didn t see those listed in cr electrical system i don t know of any major complaints in this area except that the battery that was installed at the factory had a low current rating and brakes were below par in both models the first fwd models those built before may were recalled for brake upgrades some fwd and awd owners had problems with warped rotors those of us who insist on using manual torque wrenches every time the lug nuts are tightened have never had a problem a friend of mine ownes a tsi awd and he has had brake jobs pads i can refer you to someone who has gone through a set of pads in one day it all depends on how you drive it seems that most owners have been getting between k on a set of pads one stuck valve first time i hear about a problem with the valve train on these cars other than timing belt failures and some clutch transmission problem something about sticking grinding into second gear this doesn t seem too bad if one beats on his car if your friend beats on the car then his unit is not a representative sample of the car s reliability my suggestion is instead of listening to the useless consumer reports talk to several owners the mailing list may be the best way to reach a few of them i am willing to suffer reliability for speed and looks seems you have to pay big buck if you want all three anyway can anyone please let me know how you like your talon and any problems you may have had and if the repairs are worth it if humor impaired skip to theend no matter how much you pay you won t get all three examples nsx reliability and looks ferrari reliability h h h h h h yeah right speed and looks theend the opinions stated above are not necessarily my employer s roberto l landrau kc yp landrau mitre org rll linus mitre org the mitre corporation bedford ma rll linus uucp
rec.autos	is car saftey important i was recently thumbing through the lemon aid new car guide what i found was a car would be given a recommended under the picture while a few sentences later noting how a driver and passenger were virtually guaranteed to be killed in a front end collision the most highly recommended small car the civic has the worst crash rating of all of the small cars listed there were many such cases of great vehicles where you wouldn t survive an accident is it only me or is safety not one of the most important factors when buying a car
rec.autos	re renting from alamo in article apr ericsson se etxmst sta ericsson se writes hello netters i m visiting the us i m from sweden in august i will probably rent a chevy beretta from alamo i ve been quoted for a week for additional days this would include free driving distance but not local taxes baltimore they also told me all insurance thats necessary is included but i doubt that cause a friend rented a car last year and it turned out he needed a lot more insurance than what s included in the base price but on the other hand he didn t rent it from alamo does anyone have some info on this is a rip off no that sounds pretty reasonable for that car and that city probability that i ll be needing more insurance unless you have an accident you won t need more if you plan on paying for the car with a credit card check and see if your card automatically covers rental cars also your own auto insurance may cover rental cars also most rental companies here offer extra insurance when you rent and require you to initial in several spots if you don t want it the credit cards and personal auto insurance provide the same sort of coverage that the rental agency is trying to sell i have never rented from alamo so i don t know if they follow this same practice is the beretta a good rental car yes it is a compact door probably a bit dull performance and acceleration wise but very adequate it will have an automatic transmission am fm stereo air conditioning and possibly power windows and door locks joe joseph staudt telxon corp joes telxon com p o box usenet is like tetris for people who still akron oh remember how to read x j heller
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in a previous article eric youngblood says in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes race car stuff deleted back to the f stuff for a second note that the auto tranny in f still shifts at the driver s command not some preselected schedule the driver still controls the shifting not the transmission now there is no dispute that in production cars automatics are inherently more lossy than manuals that is in theory my point all along is that whatever mechanical advantages a manual has over an automatic can very easily be lost by a driver who isn t skillful or one thing that gives an automatic an advantage at launch is the fact that it has a torque converter vs a clutch i know this sounds strange but a torque converter multiplies the engine output when launching it functions as a sort of limited continuously variable transmission typically you get a torque multiplication of to times depending on the stall speed i have yet to see a torque multiplier installed on a production automobile such systems do exist but none are presently installed in production autos that i am aware of these are commonly called viscous drive cvts or fluidic amplifiers contrasted to a clutch which merely slips when feathered result is no tq mult what the convertor does allow is for the engine to be closer to its torque peak during the launch before a clutched car can fully engage it s driveline chevy proved it many years ago with the camaro ets and terminal mile times were close enough tpo be identical for speed and auto cars note that this is also the major reason that an auto car can get away with fewer gears than a manual the slip in the convertor makes up for the fewer ratios and before everyone starts yelling about the proposed sspeed autos soon to be out note that some manufacturers are using speed manulas now once past lauch however the converter begins coupling and the tq multiplication effect is reduced but by then you should be on the cam correct al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don t you know that girls can t play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.autos	internal leak in carburetor hi my friend s toyota tercel accelerates by itself without using the gas peddel the repairman said it has a internal leak of air in the carburetor and needs a new carburetor costs she likes to know if it is possible to fix the problem without replacing the whole carburetor thank you
rec.autos	bbb autoline arbitration my bbb autoline arbitration experience is over the outcome was decidedly mixed i won the battle but lost the war the arbitrator found that the car was defective but decided to offer a repurchase well below market value at the time of the hearing average retail on my truck in the nada book was but the decision was for i wrote a letter to the council of better business bureaus pointing out the fact that if you have an automobile that does not depreciate rapidly the manufacturer has no incentive to deal with you there is no way that the manufacturer can loose because they can turn around and sell the vehicle at a profit if the consumer is awarded a repurchase the attitude of chevrolet s representative at the hearing tends to support this point of view he was totally unprepared and did not seem to take the proceeding very seriously i decided to take the repurchase even though i am getting totally screwed on the price i will not have to deal with continuing repairs or selling a lemon myself and i have no case for a civil suit based on the idaho lemon law i am planning to send a letter to my elected representatives telling them how utterly ridiculous the idaho lemon law is the law allows for a use deduction equal to the irs mileage allowance as if chevrolet were buying my gas and paying for my insurance summary of the case in may i bought a new ton hd chevrolet pickup between may and december this vehicle required repair after repair systems that required attention included the transmission heater fan paint suspension and motor the main problem was the five speed manual transmission they could not install a non defective transmission in at least four attempts so in summary it is possible to get a repurchase but you are going to get screwed on the price unless you paid too much in the first place or if your car happens to be a model that depreciates rapidly jackw hpdmd boi hp com
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr erich triumf ca music erich triumf ca fred w bach writes xref taco alt parents teens rec autos path taco gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca erich triumf ca music from music erich triumf ca fred w bach newsgroups alt parents teens rec autos subject re warning please read date apr pst organization triumf tri university meson facility lines distribution world message id apr erich triumf ca references c joit e bcstec ca boeing com apr erich triumf ca qs a f bigboote wpi edu c r iy v ssd intel com nntp posting host erich triumf ca summary violent teenagers and victims need help keywords brick rock danger gun violent teenagers news software vax vms vnews in article c r iy v ssd intel com jrowell ssd intel com janet rowell writes could we plase cease this discussion i fail to see why people feel the need to expound upon this issue for days and days on end these areas are not meant for this type of discussion if you feel the need to do such things please take your thought elsewhere thanks i just want to second this request i value this net group as one where people focus on solving problems and go out of their way to be respectful of differences the hostility expressed in the original posting feels like an assault thanks jan exactly my point there is a lot of hostility to and from teenagers look i sent these posts here to alt parents teens with a copy to rec autos since you people in this group may have the best advice for and experience with troubled teenagers if you follow the news for the northwest usa you will have heard that a group of year old boys barely out of the teens certainly their outlook was developed during their teens just shot and killed an innocent little girl riding in a car in the seattle area when her mother who was driving honked her horn at the car with the boys in it this is really upsetting and makes my stomach turn as it would any parent s doesn t your heart just go out to that poor mother yes fred my heart and prayers go out to the mother and others who have been victims of these and other senseless crimes you folks in this group have a responsibility to offer any good advice that you may have i suspect lots of people all over the world will read and appreciate your comments however i feel that you have missed the point of the previous postings see top your statement of responsibility is felt as an attack towards the members of this group you are attempting to make the members of this group be required to answer the only people who should make a statement are people who have experienced the problem and found a workable solution teenagers both drive cars and are involved in automotive vandalism and crime maybe someone on this newsgroup has had specific experience in dealing with violent teenage offenders like these kids are at the same time maybe you would have some good advice for those hostile people who sense that are now the potential victims maybe you would have some good advice for them on how not to pay back and or not make the situation worse maybe you have some good advice for local authorities or schools where this problem is prevalent but then again maybe you re not interested many people are interested but have no input i will restate that your last sentence here is seen as an attack on the members of this group if people have input they will give it if they do not you should not make them feel compelled sp to respond if you wish to continue this conversation please send e mail do not repost or attempt to bait me i will not make another post and may i make the same a suggestion to other group members on this matter thanks in advance for your help if we get any btw your welcome jerry l storrs system network manager why do you look for the living dept of chemical engineering ncsu among the dead he is not here storrs che ncsu edu preferred he is risen storrs eos ncsu edu luke the lord is risen indeed any statement made is the explicit belief of the writer and not the employer
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p writes help my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car jp vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes fyi just last week the pbs show motor week gave the results of what they thought were the best cars for in the convertible category the honda civic del sol achieved this honor the one down side i see with the car is its interior it looks inexpensive and dull i own a del sol and i must vouch for the interior i really looks snazzy when the top is off i looks a lot better in person than on the television i saw that motorweek as well needless to say i was smiling a bit by the time it was over watch out for that darned convertible tan tho diane dspalme mke ab comm
rec.autos	re vw passat advice sought in article apr remus rutgers edu hong remus rutgers edu hyunki hong writes i am currently in the car market and would like opinions on a vw passat glx how does it compare to a toyota camry i thought the car looked very solid stable and european only disappointment so far is that that it doesn t offer an airbao my next question is why isn t vw offering automobiles with airbags should i pay the extra three thousand for a bmw is even though it is smaller and less powerful than than the passat i think vw got caught out on the airbag thing it s only been in the last year or two that airbags have become a significant selling feature vw assumed that automatic belts would satisfy govt requirements for passive restraint but didn t guess that the merican consumer would actually make buy decisions based on the presence of an airbag vw is really hurting right now in the us market check out the article in last week s autoweek about the crisis at vw golfs and jettas will be coming from the plant in mexico but they don t have the quality at that facility as per normal vw practice the us launch of the jetta iii is delayed again and again until a good chunk of the useful life of the design is spent i think that passats come from germany so there is not the same quality and availability issue it s a nice car with a nice engine whether vw will be a player in the us market in two year s time is a different question i ll leave the passat camry flamewar for someone else
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon in article apr ntuix ntu ac sg mgqlu ntuix ntu ac sg max lu writes we are working on gas solid adsorption air con system for auto applications in this kind of system the energy for regenerating the adsorbent is from the exhaust gas anyone interested in this mail email me or follow up this thread we may have a discussion on prospects of this technology ok i ll bite how is this supposed to work tim
rec.autos	re chevy sprint in wfnmbjg wboe l c andrew cmu edu srinagesh gavirneni sg andrew cmu edu writes i have a chevy sprint with a c and doors it s odometer turned k and the sensor light started blinking i went to the dealer and he said it was a maintenance light saying i need to change the oxygen sensor he said it is to be changed every k but since i bought the car when it had k i don t know if the same thing happened at k and k he quoted for the part and to install it the part cost outside but the mechanic i went to could not fix it saying the sensor is placed too deep in the engine parts he suggested i wait till it malfunctions before i do anything if anyone out there owns a chevy sprint i want to know how they got their oxygen sensors changed also did you face any problem with fixing it without the dealer s help also what are the results of the oxygen sensor malfunction any help would be greatly apprecisted thanks i sold my sprint last april with k on it i d driven it since the previous july putting k miles on it the sensor light used to light up regularly starting about k miles after i bought it my brother and i rebuilt the engine but used all of the original equipment so i suppose the sensor could have used replacement performance hah if you could call it that did not change perhaps emissions increased but how much emissions could a ca registered cylinder engine produce that was a neat car i held the engine block easily in one hand has anyone ever driven the turbo variant just curious adam edwards awds ltd uhura cc rochester edu
rec.autos	re i m getting a car i need opinions in article qqp o ba usenet ins cwru edu cf cleveland freenet edu chun h ung wan writes in a previous article ip ns cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha says i have as my budget i m looking for a sports or gt car what do you think would be the best buy i m looking for specific models thanks danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this ip lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work for an all out sports car i d go for the rx without the sports suspension which is too stiff for a little more practicality and more comfort the nissan zx turbo is a good buy and for a good dose of luxury the lexus sc is perfect with a manual transmission of course however the toyota supra is coming out soon and if you like it s looks the performance is supposed to be great almost race car like i don t particulary like the mitsubishi gt s or the dodge stealths as they are too heavy and aren t very nimble handlers for a sports car a motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography ca santa barbara and a foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind is the forerunner of all states the only thing about the zx turbo and new supra is they re about k or more over his budget be good and you will be lonely mark twain
rec.autos	sport utility vehical comparisons any opinions i just read articals on this in road and track and car and driver is that one mag or two b and i was wondering if people out there have any opinions that differed from what these mags have to say i m looking at the following three suv s anyone who s driven all three have any strong opinions ford explorer toyota runner nissan pathfinder currently i m leaning toward the toyota cause i ve had big success with toyota trucks in the past and cause i think it s the best looking of the three but i thought i d see if anyone has any strong opinions thanks karl karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac cisco com or batman cisco com dod fj shovels and rakes and implements of destruction arlo guthrie
rec.autos	re is car saftey important tcorkum bnr ca trevor corkum writes is it only me or is safety not one of the most important factors when buying a car it depends on your priorities a lot of people put higher priorities on gas mileage and cost than on safety buying unsafe econoboxes instead of volvos i personally take a middle ground the only thing i really look for is a three point seatbelt and mph bumpers i figure that mph collisions into brick walls aren t common enough for me to spend that much extra money for protection but there are lots of low speed collisions that do worry me jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes anything if he hadn t emptied his gun into the asshole texas it s whole other country that reminds me of one of texas s ads you hear a guy speaking in french like it s a letter home then the french moves to the background and a french accented voice come to the foreground talking about how he went walking on the beach and it felt so much like home that he decided to take his shoes off and the rest of his clothes it ended with please send bail on an rec autos note does anyone carry a gun on them or keep one in their car which is bad idea isn t it if you work in a bad part of town or regularly go through one is this a loaded question i normally have an unloaded colt delta in my glove box with a loaded magazine handy which is perfectly legal in oklahoma for those times that i m travelling inter state i keep an unloaded s w magnum revolver in the glove box with a speed loader in my pocket which is legal everywhere under federal law illinois state police be hanged as i ve said before this is stricly for defense my insurance will pay to replace my car but i only have one life james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re slick any good hmmm i was listening to the local radio expert who is amazingly enough an honest to god expert tm it s amazing what he knows and he said that based on his conversations with the inventor of slick who is no longer with the comapny due to some kind of conflict he avoids it like the plague he does recommend other teflon based type oil additives though james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re info opinions wanted on cars in this article in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article fibercom com rrg rtp fibercom com rhonda gaines writes i m in the market for a new car currently i own a mazda mx dx which has served me just fine however i d like to get a door car since i don t relish the thought of moving a carseat around in a door car my criteria are door a c am fm cassette quick acceleration cruise control decent rear seat legroom my husband is a footer it must also be under k preferably closer to the k range which will probably rule out the accord the cars that have caught my eye are toyota corolla toyata camry mazda pontiac grand am pontiac grand prix honda accord and civic if it s roomy enough and still comes in a door model hyundai sonata and maybe even a small oldsmobile although not the achieva all opinions benchmarks recommendations etc are welcome i really wouldn t consider the grand am achevia skylark all the same since they are very bad in frontal collsions and don t have any other really outstanding qualities john i really must object to that last statement having a lot of experience with a grand am coupe i can firmly state that they do have a lot of outstanding qualities very reliable throughout great layout of controls and components very roomy considering the exterior size of the car they look sharp inside and out the v that i drive has exceptional power and drivability compared to other similar cars that i have driven all in all it s a fun to drive dependable and reasonably priced vehicle please don t knock it with a statement like that unless you back it up with specific reasons why you feel that way rob bell plains nodak edu john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn t it the black adder
rec.autos	what car is this i was wondering if anyone out there could enlighten me on this car i saw the other day it was a door sports car looked to be from the late s early s it was called a bricklin the doors were really small in addition the front bumper was separate from the rest of the body this is all i know if anyone can tellme a model name engine specs years of production where this car is made history or whatever info you have on this funky looking car please e mail thanks il brought to you by your neighborhood lerxst
rec.autos	re warning please read 
rec.autos	re sport utility vehical comparisons any opinions i just read articals on this in road and track and car and driver is that one mag or two b and i was wondering if people out there have any opinions that differed from what these mags have to say depending on how you plan to use your suv i might recommend also browsing trailer boats and one or more of those pickup shotgun and wd magazines the car rags mostly seem to consider recently graded pea gravel to be offroading and ten sacks of redwood chips to be a bedload considering that most of these suvs seem to be used mostly as robust station wagons that s probably not a bad approach but if your applications are more demanding pick your information sources accordingly of the three vehicles on your short list explorer runner pathfinder i d recommend the runner as being closely based on a rather robust pickup and the explorer for being comfortably carlike don t know much about the pathfinder good luck joe just another personal opinion from the people s republic of berkeley
rec.autos	re opel owners in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me i d guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but i could easily be wrong i think the later kadett s were sold here as buick opels craig chintan amin llama uiuc edu chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	mr noisy engine g day people are there any mr owners or motor head gurus out there that know why my mr s engine sounds noisy the mr s engine is noisy at the best of times but not even a nice nose it s one of those very ugly noises i do an oil change every months and for about months the engine noise sounds relatively quiet during driving and idling at around the month mark after an oil change i ve been tracking this very thoroughly for months now it starts to get that very disgusting noise not so much during driving but more so during idling what s its problem also i don t know if it s just me but if noticed a little performance drop it just hasn t got the acceleration it used to any help tips would be appreciated worried
rec.autos	re super mega automobile sighting s exotics together in article qvgg innl r phantom gatech edu graham e thomas grahamt phantom gatech edu writes alright beat this automobile sighting i can top that one friday afternoon i look out my window in long beach ca what do i see but the new ferrari i looks like a mix between the ragtop testarossa sp and the batman car it seems ferrari had their annual dinner at the place downstairs sweet car j b
rec.autos	re warning please read sorry about that last post my server neglected to send the message can we please keep this group to automotive topics thank you
rec.autos	re opel owners boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me i d guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but i could easily be wrong i think the later kadett s were sold here as buick opels craig i think the manta is the european name for the gt i m pretty sure that the only kadett s sold here were are the pontiac lemans i think the gt is just an early s to mid s manta chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re opel owners in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader chintan amin sounds more like an opel gt neat cars fun to drive sold through buick from through if i remember correctly i believe it was in that there were some engine mods made such that parts were not interchangeable with the older models parts are thus much harder to come by for the later models parts in general are not too difficult to find at one time jc whitney carried some stuff including a brand new not remfg long block either a gt or a kharman ghia hmm that spelling looks hosed will be my next project mark
rec.autos	re for hail damage a record in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes my integra was hit hard in the hailstorm in austin tx the insurance company cut me a check for deductible last week is this a record anybody else had settlements from the same hailstorm yet craig rumor has it that a guy at dell computer had his miata totalled so that would be about k john steczkowski stecz pencom com the constitution grants you the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness it does not attempt to guarantee that everyone will be happy
rec.autos	new talon in article is there such a thing as the new eagle talon i heard from a freind that the new talons have been released is this true and if so what are the differences between the and any opinions i would appreciate any replies and i would also prefer e mail thanks hasit s mehta university of rochester primus sucks hm b uhura cc rochester edu i do believe in captain crunch for i am the frizzle fry
rec.autos	re changing oil by self hanguyen megatest com ha nguyen writes in article apr progress com damelio progress com stephen d amelio writes bmoss grinch sim es com brent woody moss writes you could take a screw driver and hammer and start punching holes in various locations and when some black slippery stuff starts pouring out then you would know that the oil drain plug is nearby within a foot or two anyway close the holes with toilet paper before refileing with oil though you have to refill the engine with oil wow no wonder i can t get an engine to last more than my first oil change don t forget to punch holes in the radiator too it will spray nice refreshing water on the engine and keep it nice cool steve gee you really make me confused what is radiator where is it located what does it look like will it release any radiation since it sounds like radia tion genera tor when you punch holes of course it releases radiation thats why your car goes faster when you punch the holes in it all that radiation gets on your engine and gives it pep scientific term you get more horsepower torque too if you don t know what hp torque are you can read mile long threads on the subject but they are all wrong horsepower is how much power a horse can make pulling a subaru and torque is a name invented by craftsman for a wrench steve
rec.autos	re warning please read in smn b w w cybernet cse fau edu vlasis cybernet cse fau edu vlasis theodore writes tobias convex com allen tobias writes in article apr virginia edu ejv j virginia edu erik vel this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly a small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks i don t recall if she made it but i think she was comatose for a month or so and doctors weren t holding out hope that she d live what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold society as we have known it it coming apart at the seams the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is no big deal kid s see hundreds on murderous acts on tv we can abort children on demand and kill the sick and old at will so why be surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don t care because the message they hear is life is cheap at well people fortunatly or unfortunatly only the us is experiencing the devaluation of human life among developed nations i am an american but i was raised in europe where the worst thing that can happen to somebody is get his car broken into or have his pocket picked by slaves or russian refugees of cource there will be some nutcases but thats extremely rare i e in greece you can walk through any neighborhood at any time during the night without even worrying in germany you can walk the sidewalks at am and not even look behind your back at the sanitation crews that clean the streets to a sparkling cleen whoever of you have been there you know what i am saying i dont have any easy answers but if we as a nation do some selfcritisism we might get somewhere of course these postings sould be in soc culture us but if we reduce crime here it ll mean less car insurance rates thus we could spend more money on modifing our cars now my posting is rec autos tech revelant vlasis theodore software engineer idb mobile communications sig under development i remember this happening on the i through michigan and ohio several years back a group of guys in an old beater would rear end a car usually out of state or canadians you stop and they smack you with a bb bat at least they didn t kill you for the sake of a car i think the cops put out decoys and this calmed down for a while vlasis are you safe walking through germany if you are a refugee
rec.autos	monthly posting buick grand national regal t type mailing list monthly posting regarding the buick grand national regal t type mailing list this list is for owners and other parties interested in the buick grand nationals regal t types gnxs and other turbocharged regals discussions include technical information and parts sources particular emphasis is given to performance enhancements and racing to join or ask about the mailing list contact gnttype request srvsn monsanto com scott keller the agricultural group of monsanto company sekell bb t monsanto com ka wch packet ka wch k pfx mo usa na keeper of the buick grand national regal t type mailing list
rec.autos	ignition kill i just wanted to thank all the netters out there who either posted a response or sent e mail regarding my ignition kill question now that i know how simple a procedure it is it looks like i ll be paying my local pep boys a visit this weekend mik
rec.autos	re sho clutch question grinding noise in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article c h f ldu news rich bnr ca jcyuhn crchh nosubdomain nodomain james yuhn writes that s not the clutch you re hearing its the gearbox early shos have a lot of what is referred to as gear rollover noise you can generally i have one of the first shos built and mine doesn t make this noise geez wharfie do you have to be so difficult mine was built in december which qualifies as pretty dang early and it most certainly grinds away jim
rec.autos	kubelwagen the answer to your question is sort of volkswagen had a much less robust version of this army vehicle out in the early s or thereabouts it was called the volskwagen thing and was of course a convertible i havent seen many around then or now good luck mik
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article c hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk or side or both sides of some tacky luxury cars some of em aren t fake if you re talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car to sport one i personally would love to have a t bird with a continental kit and the supercharged v that is one of the most beautiful cars ever built imho i d go for a lincoln continental if i could find one sad part is that edsel ford designed it and look at the abortion they named after him ain t no justice okay i ll admit it looks nice on the t bird as a previous owner of and thunderbirds i m biased anyway
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in drutx att com klf druwa att com franklinkl writes in article c hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article q innb ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes it s a big aftermarket business almost no cars come from the factory with vynal any more and any fake convertible job definitely came from some aftermarket place what amazes me is how much people are willing to pay for bad taste how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk or side or both sides of some tacky luxury cars some of em aren t fake if you re talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car to sport one i personally would love to have a t bird with a continental kit and the supercharged v that is one of the most beautiful cars ever built imho james the continental may have been the first modern era auto to mount the spare on the rear of the car but it was hardly the first car to sport one various mounting techniques for rear mounting the spare were quite common in early automobiles both us and foreign right in the thirties both buick and packard had two spares mounted in wells in the front fenders of course that was back when the front fenders were long enough to provide room there were a couple of other marques that did this as well but memory fades ken franklin they say there s a heaven for people who wait ama and some say it s better but i say it ain t gwrra i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun y know only the good die young
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in c hi b c constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes as a long time motorcyclist i have never understood what posessed auto builders to put delicate controls which must be used with skill and finesse like clutches and brakes on the floor why not hand control it s much much easier in the early days neither of these functions had power assist so only legs had enough strength to activate them since then it s been traditional and people would have a hard time getting used to anything else well where exactly would you put a hand clutch and brake on a motorcycle it s easy the handlebars have a very limited range of turning steering wheels on the other hand turn around and around and around which is fine for electrical relays like your cruise control and airbag but how many of you want to lose your clutch and or brake due to a short circuit shades of the edsel they had pushbuttons in the steering wheel hub that controlled the auto tranny it was very disconcerting to shift into reverse when turning a corner and the wires shorted there are workarounds but there s really no reason to use hand power on a car s clutch or brakes and lightening them to the point that they are finesse controls suitable for hand use would increse the mechanical complexity substantially look at power brakes and non power brakes for an example i saw an experimental car that had a joystick instead of a steering wheel that s about useless imho another automotive oddity is separate keys for trunks doors and ignitions why on earth would you want this i know i don t i want a separate trunk key for security reasons it gives me a totally separate lockable container for door and ignition ehhh the same key s ok i guess james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias wrote society as we have known it it coming apart at the seams the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is no big deal kid s see hundreds on murderous acts on tv we can abort children on demand and kill the sick and old at will so why be surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don t care because the message they hear is life is cheap i think this is getting a little overheated highway robbers have been a part of life since the middle ages at least it s human nature to look at history through rose colored glasses but random acts of violence have been a ceaseless part of our heritage overall life is better now than it ever was then it s just that random individual acts of violence have never been historically significant and record keeping in the past was never good enough to retain them all steve wall
rec.autos	re chevy sprint in article wfnmbjg wboe l c andrew cmu edu srinagesh gavirneni sg andrew cmu edu writes i have a chevy sprint with a c and doors it s odometer turned k and the sensor light started blinking i went to the dealer and he said it was a maintenance light saying i need to change the oxygen sensor he said it is to be changed every k but since i bought the car when it had k i don t know if the same thing happened at k and k he quoted for the part and to install it the part cost outside but the mechanic i went to could not fix it saying the sensor is placed too deep in the engine parts he suggested i wait till it malfunctions before i do anything if anyone out there owns a chevy sprint i want to know how they got their oxygen sensors changed also did you face any problem with fixing it without the dealer s help also what are the results of the oxygen sensor malfunction any help would be greatly apprecisted thanks nagesh i have owned my sprint from the beginning and that sensor light comes on every k to let you know it s time for a check up when that light goes on i just take it to the delaer tell them it s that time and they work on it for hou and you pay for parts and for labor ahh what they get for labor i currently have about k on my sprint and of all the times i took it in for service i never say on the payment sheet anything about the replacement of the oxygen sensor what the heck is an oxygen sensor as far an i know of i have never had that thing replaced in my car and the car is purring like a kitten now i don t have a c mother nature does that for me and that might have something to do with it but i still never heard of an oxygen sensor the only major service job i have had on my car besides getting the tires replaced if you want to call that a service job was getting the rotor distributor and gasket replaced and that was all done within the past months what i do at k is have a good tune up let them replace what ever they need to pay the bill about and go home and don t worry about the car for another k oh i just remembered something if that little sensor light bothers you in the fuse box right below the turn signal lever up against the dash there is a swith on the right side flip that switch and the light will go off i do that so that little light won t annoy me if you can t find it look it up in the car manuel i hope that i have helped a little and good luck with the oxygen sensor thomas e mail address give me an an army of west point tjz zeus tamu edu graduates and i ll win a battle give me a handful of texas aggies creator of mot power and i ll win a war gen george s patton
rec.autos	re electronic odometers was used bmw question in article news duke edu klg mookie mc duke edu kim greer writes i was wondering if anyone can shed any light on just how it is that these electronic odometers remember the total elapsed mileage what kind of memory is stable reliable enough non volatile enough and independent enough of outside battery power to last say years or more in the life of a vehicle i m amazed that anything like this could be expected to work for this length of time especially in light of all the gizmos i work with that are doing good to work for months without breaking down somehow mk t from thomsom it has a timekeeper clock and bytes of nvram which has a lithium battery backup the battery has a life of years of poweroff operation installed in a car it could be left powered on continuously and not draw much current the battery would only be used when your auto battery was dead or had been removed side question how about the legal ramifications of selling a used car with a replaced odometer that starts over at miles after say k actual miles looks like fraud would be fairly easy for the price of a new odometer you can say it has however many miles you want to tell the buyer it has in california they have a line on the transfer of ownership form which states that the odometer mileage is correct if incorrect you are required to fill in what you know or guesstimate to be the correct mileage if you lie on this form and are caught you can be prosecuted and the buyer can sue you for the value of the mileage differential faster horses younger women older whiskey more money
rec.autos	re re aftermarket a c units les bartel s comments sorry i can t help you with your question but i do have a comment to make concerning aftermarket a c units i have a frost king or frost temp forget which aftermarket unit on my cavalier and am quite unhappy with it the fan is noisy and doesn t put out much air i will never have an aftermarket a c installed in any of my vehicles again i just can t trust the quality and performance after this experience les let me add my in i had a a c installed by the ford garage and it did not work as well as the a c that was installed by the factory in pickups identical to mine i have talked to other people that have had the same result don t know if this is just a probable with ford or what ernie smith i agree never have the dealer add anything to your car if you want a c make sure it is factory installed honda s maybe excluded many can t be bought with a c installed at the factory but i think maybe they actually use all the needed parts for a true factory install when they put one in as in bigger radiator etc or are designed properly for this in the st place anyway my point is the dealer installed a c won t be anywhere near as good as factory and the service bums will mess up your car when installing it scratches screwdriver holes in seats parts not reinstalled correctly or with all the screws etc i know a guy who has been service manager at a gm dealer for years he said never have a dealer add anything to your car except maybe floormats
rec.autos	master cylinder thanks to everyone who responded to my honda accord break question it does seem that the master cylinder is bad i will have my mechanic double check and be sure it isn t something simpler and cheaper first but from your responses it sounds like it is very likely to be the master cylinder thanks everyone joni
rec.autos	wanted opinions on mg i was wondering if anyone out in net land have any opinions on mgs in general i know they are not the most reliable cars around but summer is approaching and they are convertibles i m interested in a mg but any opinions on mgs would be appreciated thanks dave dave kai chui chu dept of elec comp eng concordia university voice de maisonneuve w h fax montreal quebec canada h g m email davec ece concordia ca
rec.autos	re another taurus sho question in article apr reed edu rseymour reed edu writes the taurus sho for those who can get it straight it is s h o as in super high output not sho as in show has a yamaha l dohc valves sho v having spoken to technical staff from ford many times i can assure you that internally at ford this car is always called the taurus show or just the show as in long o sound i still refer to it as the s h o however because it sounds better to me i assume many purist fans and owners prefer using the ford lingo tim gardner
rec.autos	re the kuebelwagen in article c k co f mentor cc purdue edu thwang mentor cc purdue edu tommy hwang writes sorry for the mis spelling but i forgot how to spell it after my series of exams and no on hand reference here is it still possible to get those cute wwii vw jeep wanna be s a replica would be great i think tkh the vw thing kubelwagen lookalike is still manufactured in mexico and possibly south america good luck importing one they probably don t meet us safety and pollution requirements there are mechanics and junkyards which specialize in vw they might be helpful for finding a thing unless the wwii re enacters have grabbed them all the wwii kubelwagen was the german equivalent of the jeep but was not wheel drive one is on display at the patton museum at fort knox kentucky also the rare schwimwagen sp amphibious version in full scale dioramas highly recommended frank reid ucs indiana edu
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes several chemists already have come up with several substitutes for r you don t hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that is the people who stand to rake in that to per retrofit per automobile have mounted an organized campaign to squash those r substitutes out of existence if not ban them altogether on very shaky technical grounds at best on outright lies at worst now i m not saying you re wrong because i know that the r substitutes exist but this sounds a lot like the mpg carbs that the oil companies keep us all from getting mark
rec.autos	are there any honda groups are there any honda groups out there especially ones that deal with preludes tom spencer
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article c hqj unix amherst edu bhtulin unix amherst edu barak h tulin gives forth i just started reading this thread today so forgive me if it has already been mentioned but what was the deal with renault s putting the horn on the left hand turn signal stalk it was a button on the end where the washer button would be on the wiper washer stalk could the frenchies not figure out the wiring through the steering wheel or what had an alliance for a long time it was a comfortable but sluggish car i got very used to the horn on the stalk after a couple months worth of getting used to it after i bought my next car a chevy it took me for ever to get used to the horn on the steering wheel again jim grey jwg acd acd com up the irons
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in a previous article crh regent e technik tu muenchen dbp de christian huebner says brad buck viewlogic com bradford kellogg writes i think he s talking about a different form of rush evidently it s fun to be terrified but hey if you want that kind of rush try bobsledding you may only get up to or so but it makes in a car feel like a stroll in the park why should a good driver be terrified at mph the only thing i fear going at are drivers who switch to the left lane without using either rear view mirror or flashers doing to ain t a rush for me but it s fun and i get where i want to go much faster but in one point you are quite right if you are terrified at you should better not drive that fast or you ll be a hazard to others btw before you flame me read my e mail address i know what i m talking about as i live in germany bk chris crh regent e technik tu muenchen de not a flame just a point i d be scared at here not because i feel i or my car couldn t handle it but because of exactly what you said drivers who are stupid like the ones who are doing also and so they pull in right behind you at maybe car lengths oh yeah real smart this scares me in cities at when i can t see enough of the car to make it recognizable they are following too close and when i see them doing this and reading a newspaper sigh this is why america has speed limits our drivers are too dumb to realise that reading the paper should be done at breakfast or work not in their car my thoughts drew
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes relates an experience similar to mine then comes the part i wish i could have videotaped as we go out the front door the sales manager shouts across the entire showroom customers and all go ahead you deserve to buy a nissan so my friend bought a sentra this kind of behavior is what i was shocked by in my experience for crying out loud how do these turkeys think they can talk to customers this way and still stay in business again i don t expect sales people to bow scrape and grovel in my presence but i sure don t expect to be abused either i was very surprised by the way the sales people talked to me and in other negotiating sessions i overheard in neighboring sales cubicles evidently their success rate is high enough that they continue to do business this way there must be a lot of people out there who are easy to intimidate on the other hand i m not sure about the one price no haggling approach that saturn and other are starting to use i guess if their fixed price is fair it s ok maybe the best approach is to do your homework before you go in find out the invoice prices of the car add a reasonable profit for the dealer offer them that price and stick to it if they get abusive just leave then don t let them try to screw you after the deal is agreed on mark
rec.autos	re braindead drivers who don t look ahead in article apr cbnewsd cb att com hhm cbnewsd cb att com herschel h mayo writes well i guess i know for sure what i meant and it is this i don t know where you drive but around here freeways are often clogged solid with large packs of semis trucks and cars of all descriptions when i close on one of these rolling clusterf s on the highway i have no desire to add my vehicle to this rolling accident looking for a place to happen if there were any way to pass it i would be passing myself however i can t as i posted before all it takes is a blown tire or some moron tramping on the brakes to turn this pack into a cloud of shredded metal flying glass and burning vehicles i want to maintain enough free space between myself and this mess to at least have a minimal chance to avoid a mass crash that means maintaining a clear space between me and it however there is no end of shortdriving morons who are dying to pass so they can add themselves and their car to the bodycount that wouldn t bother me so much except that after letting enough of these morons pass me and glue themselves to the pack ahead my interval is filled up trying to back off further does not work because the road behind me has filled up trapping my car right into an ever increasing pack now if there was any slight possibility that there was a lane open ahead i d be glad to move over but there usually is no way in hell that anybody is going anywhere so i block the would be passers not only for my own good but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it just an comment i don t like it when people decide what s good for me if you think you re going to decide anything for me you d better be carrying a badge and a gun who made you capable of determining if there is no way in hell that anybody is going anywhere why do you find it necessary to add to the problem instead of just minding your own business if someone is minding their own business i will give them all the room they want and i ll try to make things easy for them even letting them in in front of me if they ask politely with a directional on the other hand if someone like you decides they want to block me and be a general asshole you can bet your ass that i ll make life as miserable as possible for you as long as it doesn t affect anyone else who s minding their own business they have a phrase to describe someone like you self appointed traffic police just mind your own business and stay in the right lane where you belong as a rule of philosophy i don t feel particularly sorry when somebody gets offed by his own stupidity but it does worry me when some idiot is in a position to cash in my chips too h h mayo mustang gt bob pitas ush bpita ctp com up at ned epping nh cambridge ma geddy lee in yyz disclaimer these opinions are mine obviously since they end with my sig
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr rtfm mlb fl us gwalker rtfm mlb fl us grays on walker writes why crawl under the car at all i have a machine i got for my boat that pulls the oil out under suction through the dip stick tube it does an excellent job and by moving the suction tube around you can get more old oil out than by using the drain plug i think i paid at e b marine the oil goes into a steel gal can wait until it cools and decant into your favorite device i use soft drink bottles easy to take them down to the local oil recycle center yeah i suppose you could do that but then you don t get the broken knuckles the rust in your eyes the oil bath and the burns from the exhaust i mean come on steve
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr news cs brandeis edu andyh chaos cs brandeis edu andrew j huang writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven j orlin writes i take the electrodes of the amp ohm volt meter whatever and connect one to each earlobe then symmetrically insert my fingers in each of the spark plug boots no cheating guys both hands must be used i have just a couple of questions about this technique first what firing order should i use do i start with my pointer finger or my pinky left hand or right and secondly i have a cyl and there are two cylinders unaccounted for any suggestions andy how about your two big toes and while you re at it why bother with removing the drain plug when you could remove the dipstick instead and suck it out from there with your mouth and then spit it out domain bobml msd measurex com bob lagesse senior software engineer uucp uunet mxmsd bobml measurex management systems division voice x kemper meadow drive fax cincinnati ohio usa
rec.autos	re arctic wheels auto show i want only two things from this world a plymouth and a small opec nation with which to fuel it this would be a good and just thing car smashers can just go home and sulk jacques brouillette manufacturing engineering
rec.autos	re opel owners in c t b dg news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me i d guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but i could easily be wrong i think the later kadett s were sold here as buick opels craig i think the manta is the european name for the gt i m pretty sure that the only kadett s sold here were are the pontiac lemans i think the gt is just an early s to mid s manta chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area bzzt the manta was a two door sedan in the us it had a engine was sometimes referred to as an opel manta s are also ve hot and fun cars too mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys r us kid antiauthoritarian and fan of frogs iguanas and other herps
rec.autos	aftermarket exhausts for bmw i i am in the process of looking for a half decent aftermarket sport exhaust for my bmw i so far i have found a pacesetter exhaust for and an ansa exhaust for canadian funds i was wondering if anyone could tell me anyhting about either of these exhausts or any other possible exhausts that i may be interested in my main priorities are a decent horse power increase and a nice low note to go along with that added power i was also thinking of looking into both remus and leistritz exhausts has anyone got anything to say about these i am mainly looking for the muffler only but if anyone can find a good deal on a whole kit i would be willing to go after that i also would like to know how much these would cost me in the states please mail me back if you have any information mike welker
rec.autos	re waxing a new car i just had my chrysler painted i was told to refrain from waxing it and to leave it out in the sun supposedly this let s the volatiles escape from the paint over a month or so i can smell it feet away on a hot day and lets any slight irregularites in the surface flow out as the paint remains a little soft for a while
rec.autos	mbenz series vw passat my boss is interested in a new series mercedes benz wagon does anyone have any testimonial evidence and or strong opinions on this car or line particularly i would like to hear about power manual t only reliability feel and any unusually good or bad features of the line she currently drives a vw passat and is being plagued by its electrical problems the dealer claims there is nothing wrong even though the doors have a habit of locking and unlocking them selves while you are driving down the road the automatic shoulder restraints also like to move back and forth as you move along she does not have the new larger engine and is quite dissatisfied with its lack of power the mb wagon would have to have more power and no peculiar problems such as the passat s electrical system she is also considering a saab add some letters any comparisons between the line and the mercedes would be helpful price is not an impediment jeremy j corry churchill claimed the traditions jcorry erasure sl cc emory edu of the navy are rum mutiny and sodomy my opinions are my own but i probably got them from someone else
rec.autos	van step van accessory help hello netters i would like to find out information about a device that is used on vans and trucks this device is a step that hooks onto the tire and folds up for storage i ve seen this device on tnn s shady tree mechanic i would like to know if it is a good product and i would also like the price and address of where i can purchase this product thanks george chan email syst ryevm ryerson ca
rec.autos	re importing volvo there was an article in business week not more the weeks ago on this very subject in fact the volvo was one of the cars they laid out an example for andrew e page warrior poet decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant the difference between what we are macintosh and dsp technology and what we want to be
rec.autos	re sho and sc in article qehi ork armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes ok i ll give you a few reasons neither car was designed to turn at those speeds neither car was designed to stop quickly from those speeds safety mechanisms were not designed for impacts at those speeds an uncontrolled environment leads to unpredictable circumstances where you might need to turn or stop with no notice do you by any chance own an sho or have access to one such that you would have any idea what it is designed for or how it handles just wondering tom pickett tpickett auspex com or compuserve com sho goze
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in article r vofinn usenet pa dec com tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are go writes are there any mr owners or motor head gurus out there that know why my mr s engine sounds noisy the mr s engine is noisy at the best of times but not even a nice nose it s one of those very ugly noises assuming yours is a non turbo mr the gruffness is characteristic of a large inline that doesn t have balance shafts i guess toyota didn t care about little details like that when they can brag about the mid engine configuration and the flashy styling myself i automatically cross out any car from consideration or recommendation which has an inline larger than liters and no balance shafts it is a good rule of thumb to keep in mind if you ever want a halfway decent engine if the noise really bugs you there is nothing else that you can do except to sell it and get a v eliot
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c joit e bcstec ca boeing com neil bcstec ca boeing com neil williams writes as long as we re on the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding in the front of a toyota pickup heading south on interstate north of seattle wa someone threw a rock of an overpass and hit our windshield not by accident i m sure it was impossible to get up to the overpass quickly to see who did it we figured it was kids reported it and left a couple of years ago it happend again and killed a guy at my company he was in his mid fourties and left behind a wife and children turned out there was a reformatory for juviniles a few blocks away they caught the year old that did it they put a cover over the overpass what else could they do execute the juvi on the grounds of the reformatory required attendendence by the rest of the inmates as soon as possible after the incident and a quick sure trial i am quite serious cause and effect nothing else will ever make a dent i don t think i ll over forget this story neil williams boeing computer services bellevue wa me neither tom mackey tomm voodoo ca boeing com boeing computer services uunet bcstec voodoo tomm m s k p o box seattle wa
rec.autos	re warning please read in article neilson apr seoul mpr ca neilson seoul mpr ca robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is imminent steve heracleous you do have the power steve you can do it why don t you why don t you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do a good job though don t miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean that is absolutely correct they have a streak of meanness that runs much deeper and stronger than anything i ever experienced even during the height of the s racial struggles i am absolutely convinced that there are kids out there today that have no concept of right and wrong but have the human intelligence which is turning them into the greatest predators that have ever walked the earth they will prevail unless the rest of humanity decides that it is in their best interest to stand up against these feral humans and for individuals to start taking some responsibility for their own protection in a state in which the individuals turn to the authorities and police for protection the police and government is soon composed of the very feral humans that they originally sought protection from gee i guess you touched my hot button i d better go cool off somewhere tom mackey tomm voodoo ca boeing com boeing computer services uunet bcstec voodoo tomm m s k p o box seattle wa
rec.autos	re impala ss going into production does that mean that they re gonna bring back the biscayne and bel air
rec.autos	re warning please read mchaffee dcl nxt michael t chaffee writes significantly less than the value of many automobiles and for those who will argue that the animals out there stealing cars and everything else not to mention committing completely senseless acts of violence such as rape cannot be valued in terms of money because they are human beings i submit that they are not human beings jim callison i think is on the right track and absolutely a scratch on my car bothers me more than the death of any number of scum all of you feel the same way you just won t admit it when are people going to realise that the mere fact that a piece of flesh moves and has the approximate shape of a human being does not in itself mean that it has rights
rec.autos	dirty diesels i heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out a lot of particulate matter i heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than a catylitic converter i d assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let s hear people s opinions vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts il
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes in a previous article dspalme mke ab com diane palme x says nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p writes help my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car jp vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes fyi just last week the pbs show motor week gave the results of what they thought were the best cars for in the convertible category the honda civic del sol achieved this honor i own a del sol and i must vouch for the interior i really looks snazzy wh the top is off i looks a lot better in person than on the television i that motorweek as well needless to say i was smiling a bit by the time it was over watch out for that darned convertible tan tho i simply must inquire how can people honestly consider this car a convertible does porsche have a patent on the targa name i mean convertible to me means top down which the del sol certainly does not do it has the center that lifts out this is what i would term a targa unless porsches was gonna sue me for doing that i know the rear window rolls down but i still can hardly consider this car to be a convertible yes however with the top off and the rear window down this car is more like a convertible than a coupe think of it as a convertible with an integrated roll bar like addition jp
rec.autos	re what car is this in article apr wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu where s my thing writes i was wondering if anyone out there could enlighten me on this car i saw the other day it was a door sports car looked to be from the late s early s it was called a bricklin the doors were really small in addition the front bumper was separate from the rest of the body this is all i know if anyone can tellme a model name engine specs years of production where this car is made history or whatever info you have on this funky looking car please e mail bricklins were manufactured in the s with engines from ford they are rather odd looking with the encased front bumper there aren t a lot of them around but hemmings motor news ususally has ten or so listed basically they are a performance ford with new styling slapped on top brought to you by your neighborhood lerxst rush fan robert seymour rseymour reed edu physics and philosophy reed college nextmail accepted artificial life project reed college reed solar energy project soltrain portland or
rec.autos	mazda dx with air am fm good deal hi netters i want to know if w o tax is a good deal for mazda dx how is the performance review so far on mazda is it a good buy please reply to me as i don t read this group often thanks in advance ravi ravi kiran puvvala the purpose of education is not merely ravi merlin dev cdx mot com the assimilation of facts but blow all motorola codex boston ma the money ravi puvvala
rec.autos	re opel owners in article c t b dg news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me i d guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but i could easily be wrong i think the later kadett s were sold here as buick opels craig i think the manta is the european name for the gt i m pretty sure well the european manta and us gt have entirely different bodies there is little or no chance that they are the same the manta went through several generations as the coupe version of the ascona and was ok in its time that the only kadett s sold here were are the pontiac lemans i think the not true the kadett has been in and out of the us market over the years the lemans old kadett is only the latest version craig gt is just an early s to mid s manta different cars one looks like a sports car the other is a coupe chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re for hail damage a record in article apr pencom com stecz pencom com writes in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes my integra was hit hard in the hailstorm in austin tx the insurance company cut me a check for deductible last week is this a record anybody else had settlements from the same hailstorm yet craig rumor has it that a guy at dell computer had his miata totalled so that would be about k i guess it either had the top down or the hail ripped through the top as you could not do k worth of hail damage to a miata body craig john steczkowski stecz pencom com the constitution grants you the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness it does not attempt to guarantee that everyone will be happy
rec.autos	dealer cheated me with wrong odometer reading need help here is a story i bought a car about two weeks ago i finally can get hold of the previous owner of the car and got all maintanence history of the car in between and the instrument pannel of the car has been replaced and the odometer also has been reset to zero therefore the true meter reading is the reading before replacement plus current mileage that shows mile difference comparing to the mileage on the odometer disclosure from the dealer never told me anything about that important story i hope that i can return the car with full refund do u think this is possible does anyone have similar experiences any comments will be appreciated thanks yongje u washington edu
rec.autos	insurance question i m about to buy a new car and finance some of it since i paid cash for the last car i bought i did not have to worry about whether or not i had a good amount of insurance on it because of a bank loan i just put the amount that i wanted not what a bank would have wanted friends are telling me that banks require some kind of insurance on the car to protect it since it is collateral on loans is this true can that insurance be gotten as part of my other insurance i assume i don t have to pay a dealer for extra insurance over my regular car insurance am i correct i hear about accident health type insurance at the dealers and i am pretty sure these are just money makers for them i just want to verify that i don t have to buy these at all or any other types of extras what do i have to pay for car tax license anything else ellen
rec.autos	re ad said nissan altima best seller boyle cactus org writes in article qv mn dql menudo uh edu thang harebell egr uh edu chin heng thang writes recently i saw an ad for the altima which says that it is the best seller for the past months is that true i too was puzzled by this obvious untruth what i think is going on is that nissan claims that the altima is the best selling new car namelplate in the us i think i have this near verbatim lee iaccoca s statistics dept would have been proud of that sentence what they mean i think is that of all totally new models i e cars never sold before in any form the altima is the best seller thereby eliminating accord taurus etc this is from the same people who make the claim that our minivan is outsellin theirs implying that the nissan quest murcury villager are out selling the chrysler mini vans not only is this not true at all but it was a stupid claim to make the commercial was part of the introduction campaign for the vans kind of a bold statement to make when you haven t even sold one yet eh and i thought buick and oldsmobile where bad shame on you nissan and mercury any other interpretations craig does anyone has anyhting regarding the of cars sold for the past months tony
rec.autos	w rec autos there is just something disconcerting about the name of this group
rec.autos	re opel owners by the way what do people think about the opel calibra
rec.autos	re too fast in article qqv k e g usenet ins cwru edu aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes in a previous article callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison says in article qn ev g usenet ins cwru edu aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes in a previous article wrat unisql uucp wharfie says that shows how much you know about anything the brakes on the sho are very different inch or i forget discs all around vented in front the normal taurus setup is smaller discs front drums rear one i saw had vented rears too it was on a lot of course the sales man was a fool titanium wheels yeah right then later told me they were magnesium more believable but still crap since al is so m uch cheaper and just as good i tend to agree tho that this still doesn t take the sho up to standard for running on a regular basis the brakes should be bigger like or so take a look at the ones on the corrados where they have braking regulations well let s see my t bird sc has a computer controlled adjustable suspension wheel abs disks vented front rear point rears also vented belts sturdy passenger compartment aerodynamics good enough for nascar without too much change hp ft lb supercharged l v wheel independent suspension plus limited slip differential with a top speed in excess of mph and rides on v rated tires i have yet to find r s in any other speed rating is that up to standard if not why not james i really hate to do this but try reading the damn posts then you shouldn t ve done it try answering the damn question i am well aware of the fact that there was no mention of the sc in there never was a t bird mentioned the discussion was about sho s and stangs not being up to spec i do not know about t birds i only know that the specs quoted for the sho by previous poster sounded a little anemic for me to say that it was up to snuff this does not kn any way disencourage me from wishing to own one nor does it make it a bad car it merely means that i think ford could have added that extra bit of safety and tossed in larger brakes as the wheels are plenty large enough for them to fit if memory serves right which it may very well not and the motor plenty powerful enough to need it well my point was that the sc and the sho both have very similar characteristics front and rear disks abs on the sho high output v wheel independent suspension very good aerodynamics point harness fat rubber and mph top speed if one of them is up to standard and i think the sc is but the other isn t then why is that no flamage just curiousity james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences another user recently requested info about the shadow sundance cars but i haven t seen any public responses what are people s experiences with these cars daryl daryl biberdorf n gjm d biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
rec.autos	re changing oil by self bobml mxmsd msd measurex com bob lagesse writes long silly discussion deleted and while you re at it why bother with removing the drain plug when you could remove the dipstick instead and suck it out from there with your mouth and then spit it out this suggestion isn t as far fetched as it sounds years ago in another time and place i used to do oil changes in boats powered by automotive engines in many cases there was no way to get any sort of a tray under the oil pan because it was boxed in by the bottom of the hull and various floation chambers on each side and if you did get something there you d spill all the oil out of it for sure trying to get it back out again so we used a small pump powered by an electric drill to suck the oil out the dipstick hole there was a long thin hose on the inlet side designed to fit down the dipstick tube and another thicker shorter hose on the outlet side that you put into any convenient container i m sure these gadgets are still available from marine hardware suppliers if you want one mart l molle computer systems research institute university of toronto toronto canada m s a
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c jgc ajj dove nist gov keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence b keys writes this isn t anything new back in i was driving under a high overpass at night on i in san diego when i caught a glimpse of someone on the overpass as i passed under a rock slammed against the metal between the winshield and right front window my girlfriend was in the seat next to it i called the police from the next exit but i doubt if they were found about five years ago in san diego someone was put into a coma from a brick being thrown through his sunroof as he was driving and subsequently crashed i don t think he ever came out of the coma and i haven t heard anything about it for a couple years i know that this isn t the group for it but since you brought it up does anyone have any idea why they haven t bombed the waco cult probably because there are many children there also the minor fact that other than defending themselves from some people attacking them they haven t threatened or attacked anyone outside the compound in years being a promiscuous religious nut does not constitute grounds for a mass murder of koresh and his followers sorry for posting this to this group but i thought the previous post needed a rebuttal if you follow up to this portion please cross post and direct follow ups to a more appropriate newsgroup boyd johnson nosc spectra com johnson san diego california intermittent newsfeed at best and only to selected groups my opinions certainly don t match those of my employer
rec.autos	re used bmw question in article apr ua ix ua edu rpaturi ho eng ua edu ravi writes hi i am dying to get the answer for the pricing polocy of a dealer here in san jose california i moved to caal from al you moved from alabama to california my sympathies year model description milage price black looks good k k sp manual ac cassette sun roof white same as aboove k k make sure that they have all maintenance records oil should be changed every months the mileage on the cars is fine be sure that these have the valve engine the valve is a bmw in name only didn t you have a line on a i for k jump on it phil mueller pamuelle ingr com or pamuelle nc b ingr com ama dod suzuki bandit bmw r
rec.autos	re saturn puzzled by its pricing in article mar magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article pcgv oj armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes because i want to get the lowest price possible it s called capitalism i have news for you capitalism is the practice of maximizing profits same difference if you lower your costs you increase your profits personally i m not at all bothered by the saturn pricing scheme if i don t want to pay as much as they re selling it for i can go buy a different car from a different dealer and they get nothing that s competition for you if the dealer can be competitive charging what they do and making that kind of profit that s capitalism at it s best and more power to em i d rather have the consumer dictate what things will cost not the dealers sorry but neither dictates the cost it s a negotiation whether it s up front at a honda dealership in an all out dickering war or more removed on a larger economic scale ie if saturn can t sell at it s price the price drops or the company stops building them it remains a negotiated value controlled by market forces to think that the consumer controls price is ludicrous if the consumer controled price then cars would be free and no one would build cars regards charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	gm may build toyota badged car this appeared today in the the japan economic journal reported gm plans to build a toyota badged car in the us for sale in japan bruce macdonald vp of gm corporate communications yesterday confirmed that gm president and ceo jack smith had a meeting recently with tatsuro toyoda president of toyota this meeting the two discussed business opportunities to increase gm exports to japan including further component sales as well as completed vehicle sales parts sales the two presidents agreed conceptually to pursue an arrangement whereby gm would build a toyota badged right hand drive vehicle in the us for sale by toyota in japan a working group has been formed to finalize model specifications exact timing and other details
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr news cs brandeis edu andyh chaos cs brandei s edu andrew j huang writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus ac s ohio state edu steven j orlin writes i take the electrodes of the amp ohm volt meter whatever and connect one to each earlobe then symmetrically insert my fingers in each of the spark plug boots no cheating guys both hands must be used i have just a couple of questions about this technique first what firing order should i use do i start with my pointer finger or my pinky left hand or right place your hands flat on a table and arrange the firing order from left to right and secondly i have a cyl and there are two cylinders unaccounted for any suggestions well you have friends don t you cylinders might be more excitement than one person can take
rec.autos	re bmw series for in article qll innp r uwm edu qazi csd csd uwm edu aamir hafeez qazi writes from article eabu dialin slip nts uci edu by eabu orion oac uci edu alvin is there going to be a bmw in could be isn t the liter six supposed to be enlarged to liters in the not too distant future makes sense since the new mercedes benz engines go from l to a l nothing in between btw i beleive the numbers on those mb engines are and hp respectively the one upmanship in hp might induce bmw to create a larger six also the e has lagged behind the er for some time wrt hp i am sure the bavarians wouldn t want to be shown up by the schwabians ps those mb engines haven t been released over here yet daniel
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c k m ku constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes if i hear someone screwing with my car ie setting off the alarm and taunting me to come out you can be damn sure that my colt delta elite will also be coming with me it s not the screwing with the car that d get them shot it s the potential physical danger if they re taunting like that it s very possible that they also intend to rob me and or do other physically harmful things here in houston last year a woman heard the sound of someone in her garage so she went to investigate with a gun in her hand she found a guy in the process of stealing her bicycle she quite reasonably asked him to stop he refused began taunting her and as the woman was quoted in the police report he told me to go ahead and shoot him so i did the moron survived and no charges were filed against the woman
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast why should a good driver be terrified at mph the only thing i fear going at are drivers who switch to the left lane without using either rear view mirror or flashers doing to ain t a rush for me but it s fun and i get where i want to go much faster in defense of the drivers who are in the right lane here in the states people simply do not expect when they are driving to be overtaken at a speed differential of mph i don t think this is because they are stupid of course there are exceptions they are just programmed because of the mph limit do you in the states when you look in the rear view always calculate future positions of cars based on a speed differential dont get me wrong i love to drive in the left lane fast but when i overtake cars who are on the right i slow down a tad bit if i were to rely on the judgement of the other car to recognize the speed differential i would be the stupid one btw if no one else is around then go for it
rec.autos	squeekin windows consumer reports once wrote about the s blazer that it shook and rattled like a tired taxi cab there is one noise that is expecially irritating the back window squeaks i believe its because the whole tailgate assembly and window are not solid anyway has anyone had the same problem and have you found any fixes arlen martin at t microelectronics att attme stcarm
rec.autos	re mazda just does not feel right in article mxm msi umn edu mxm s msi umn edu ram v mohan writes i ve a mazda with about miles on it recently i do not get a good feeling of the road esp on a wet pavement when driving the car it feels as if the car is wandering and there is no grip on the road the tires are the original ones and have threads on them passes the penny head test i had the shocks and struts and alignment checked and things are fine however i feel like that i dont have the grip of the road and feel as if the car is wandering esp on turns any help in this is appreciated thanks two shots at it check the tires again if you can see the wear bars you re down to problem area and some tires pass a penny test between the bars that s no guide at all your problem in the wet is call hydroplaning you may not have enough tread left to channel water out from under the tire so it goes fishy on you as it lifts off the road tires age in particular soft tire compounds get harder as you put them thru more heat cycles harder compounds don t grip as well as soft ones effect is very noticable on tires that get very hot very often such as in competition but it hits all tires bob benson
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast gwm spl spl loral com gary w mahan writes why should a good driver be terrified at mph the only thing i fear going at are drivers who switch to the left lane without using either rear view mirror or flashers doing to ain t a rush for me but it s fun and i get where i want to go much faster in defense of the drivers who are in the right lane here in the states people simply do not expect when they are driving to be overtaken at a speed differential of mph i don t think this is because they are stupid of course there are exceptions they are just programmed because of the mph limit do you in the states when you look in the rear view always calculate future positions of cars based on a speed differential dont get me wrong i love to drive in the left lane fast but when i overtake cars who are on the right i slow down a tad bit if i were to rely on the judgement of the other car to recognize the speed differential i would be the stupid one btw if no one else is around then go for it keep up the good work guys afterall the cops need to be occupied with someone so that lesser mortals like us can be left alone bhaskar orion me uiuc edu
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article drutx att com klf druwa att com franklinkl writes in article c hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article q innb ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes it s a big aftermarket business almost no cars come from the factory with vynal any more and any fake convertible job definitely came from some aftermarket place what amazes me is how much people are willing to pay for bad taste how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk or side or both sides of some tacky luxury cars some of em aren t fake if you re talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car to sport one i personally would love to have a t bird with a continental kit and the supercharged v that is one of the most beautiful cars ever built imho james the continental may have been the first modern era auto to mount the spare on the rear of the car but it was hardly the first car to sport one various mounting techniques for rear mounting the spare were quite common in early automobiles both us and foreign the lincoln continental was the first car to sport the continental kit the continental kit is not to be confused with ye olde outside mounting bracket a continental kit is a very specific ornament storage compartment the continental has a neat trunk it looks rather like a laundry hamper imho james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re sho and sc in article apr ganglion ann arbor mi us david ganglion ann arbor mi us david hwang writes in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article chrissc qb d b netcom com chriss netcom com chris silvester writes wagon which i have heard is somehow slightly faster than the coupe wagon has an automatic it s slower could be due to the rear end ratio also usually automatics have different rear ends than manuals from my limited experience anyways you ll have fun looking for the rear end gears on an sho the taurus is a front wheel drive vehicle i went back and checked the article again the sho wagon is quicker than the sho automatic but significantly slower than the real sho why anyone would order an sho with an automatic transmission is beyond me if you can t handle a stick you should stick with a regular taurus and leave the sho to real drivers that is not to say that there aren t real drivers who can t use the stick eg disabled persons but they aren t in any position to use an sho anyway i would be willing to bet that if we removed the automatic transmissions from all performance type cars like the l mustangs camaros and the like we d cut down on the number of accidents each year autos are fine for sedate little sedans but they have no business in performance cars imho james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	is this a good price hi everybody i will buy a honda civic ex coupe the dealer ask for it including a c installed but not including stereo tax registration fees i live in mexico so i don t have time to go to a lot of dealers and compare their prices the dealer is in mcallen tx is this a good price for that car if not how much should i pay for it please e mail asap if you don t want to post thanks a lot orlando pugliese opuglies mtecv mty itesm mx orlando pugliese n instituto tecnologico y de estudios superiores de monterrey depto de informacion academica monterrey n l mexico ext
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences in article qmq tinn l tamsun tamu edu dlb tamuts tamu edu daryl biberdorf writes another user recently requested info about the shadow sundance cars but i haven t seen any public responses what are people s experiences with these cars daryl they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will be replaced next year with all new models
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam from article apr newsgate sps mot com by markm bigfoot sps mot com mark monninger this kind of behavior is what i was shocked by in my experience for crying out loud how do these turkeys think they can talk to customers this way and still stay in business again i don t expect sales people to bow scrape and grovel in my presence but i sure don t expect to be abused either i was very surprised by the way the sales people talked to me and in other negotiating sessions i overheard in neighboring sales cubicles evidently their success rate is high enough that they continue to do business this way there must be a lot of people out there who are easy to intimidate a couple of months ago i went to a dealership to test drive a car afterwards we sat down to discuss prices i explained that i wanted a car just like the one i drove but in a different color he said he could get one exactly like i wanted from the dealer network within a day we then negotiated a price and signed the deal next day i get a call he explains that they goofed and they had neglected to take into account a price increase the last price increase had occurred over months prior to my visit if i still wanted the car i would have to fork over another as an alternative they would honor the price if i bought the car i test drove which had been sitting around for months and had a few miles on it i said goodbye this was a good example of how they can lowball you and still cover their butts it s too bad more people don t demand honesty or these types of dealers would no longer be in business the next dealership i went to was straightforward and honest first thing the salesman said was lets s see what you have for dealer cost and work out how much profit i should make the deal went through with no problems steve
rec.autos	re electronic odometer in article c fp b co megatest com alung megatest com aaron lung writes if i m not mistaken altering the odometer is illegal furthermore i surmise it ll be tough to alter bmw s odometer if you got at it some of the newer bmw s have electronic odometers making it even more tamperproof on the cars mentioned series from the late s the electronic odometer is really a mechanical drum type odometer that is driven by pulses from a speed sensor on the rear axle these pulses are converted into mechanical pulses that turn the odometer and speedometer no way changing or erasing an eprom is going to change the mileage reading it also means the odometer is just as easy or hard to change as any other mechanical odometer on the other hand it is a bit easier to disconnect the speed sensor and run the car with no speedometer or odometer reading a simple switch will do the job it also will disable the speed limiter which will enable the car to reach it s full speed alan l peterman hm work al qiclab scn rain com it s odd how as i get older the days are longer but the years are shorter
rec.autos	insurance says car is totalled on wednesday morning another driver decided to illegally turn left in front of me doing great damage to my car honda civic i have yet to pay off the car and the body shop says the insurance company wants to total the car i haven t been able to get in touch with the person handling my claim so i checked on some things my payout is blue book retail is loan value is trade in value is could anyone give me any advice on what i should could do if the insurance company does not give me a reasonable amount for the loss of the car thanks james baker baker dfwvx dallas geoquest slb com
rec.autos	options that would be great to have a list of options that would be useful they can be existing options on a car or things you d like to have tripmeter great little gadget lets you keep rough track of mileage makes a good second guesser for your gas gauge full size spare built in mountings and power systems for radar detectors a fitting that allows you to generate household current with the engine running and plug ins in the trunk engine compartment and cabin feel free to add on regards charles x within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	dumb options list the idea here is to list pointless options you know stuff you get on a car that has no earthly use power windows add as you wish regards charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in a previous article gwm spl spl loral com gary w mahan says why should a good driver be terrified at mph the only thing i fear going at are drivers who switch to the left lane without using either rear view mirror or flashers doing to ain t a rush for me but it s fun and i get where i want to go much faster in defense of the drivers who are in the right lane here in the states people simply do not expect when they are driving to be overtaken at a speed differential of mph i don t think this is because they are stupid of course there are exceptions they are just programmed because of the mph limit do you in the states when you look in the rear view always calculate future positions of cars based on a speed differential dont get me wrong i love to drive in the left lane fast but when i overtake cars who are on the right i slow down a tad bit if i were to rely on the judgement of the other car to recognize the speed differential i would be the stupid one just to satiate my curiosity why would this make you the stupid one it seems to me everybody should be aware enough of what is going on you do not need to calculate the future position you need to look at your mirrors a little more if you glance around you will be able to tell how much faster than you the car is going maybe not precisely but well enough to know if you should let him around before you try to pass i know what you are talking about about the other driver being startled because i myself have been startled by drivers cruising by at around mph when i m doin the problem though as i saw it was not their fault for barreling around me but my fault for not paying the attention to my task at hand that i should have been oddly enough since the nd time happened x in around mo when i d had my liscence for around mo i haven t been startled and i ve been passed by cars doing roughly twice the speed of my car another odd occurance is the fact that this only seems to happen on long trips and if i drive along with them it doesn t happen at all even on the long trips adrenaline will do that to you i ve had bad cop experiences with speeding so anything over the limit is adrenalizing for me scared i ll get caught maybe they should raise the limit so we can pay better attention just curious and my otwo drew
rec.autos	re squeekin windows arlen r martin arm cbnewsm cb att com wrote consumer reports once wrote about the s blazer that it shook and rattled like a tired taxi cab there is one noise that is expecially irritating the back window squeaks i believe its because the whole tailgate assembly and window are not solid anyway has anyone had the same problem and have you found any fixes i can relate to this i ve tried everything on my greasing every point wd etc grease on the two cheap hinges on the tailgate seems to quiet it down for a time until the grease works out of the hinges hinge pins appear to be made out of penny nails another vibration seems to get worse with age and that is a vibration in the transmission in th gear my s has k miles on it i bought it new treated it very easily no fast off road stuff can t gm build chevies like they used to ford explorers look nice until you look at the price jim burrill
rec.autos	re saturn s pricing policy i just ordered a saturn sl after considering a few imports frankly the saturn way of doing business and service was a very big plus i hadn t bought a new car since i bought my honda wd back in and i was unbelieveably offended by most salespeople i met saturn was indeed very different i made three different visits to the dealer where i bought my car and was never pressured saturn also had the best after sales support and the fixed pricing made it very easy for me to decide exactly what i wanted to buy another big selling point was running into my mechanic at the dealer he s been fixing imports for years and bought a saturn based on what he s seen and heard from his customers saturn also has a good extended warranty program for year k miles fully refunded if you don t use it that works out to an actual cost of or so based on the year treasury rates using savings account rates it s more like in the first three years it also buys you free rental during any warranty work without counting against the refund mike
rec.autos	re sho and sc in article c l re constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr ganglion ann arbor mi us david ganglion ann arbor mi us david hwang writes in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article chrissc qb d b netcom com chriss netcom com chris silvester writes why anyone would order an sho with an automatic transmission is beyond me if you can t handle a stick you should stick with a regular taurus and leave the sho to real drivers that is not to say that there aren t real drivers who can t use the stick eg disabled persons but they aren t in any position to use an sho anyway i would be willing to bet that if we removed the automatic transmissions from all performance type cars like the l mustangs camaros and the like we d cut down on the number of accidents each year autos are fine for sedate little sedans but they have no business in performance cars imho james i have to disagree with this i have a z with a and a speed auto w overdrive and it is really better that way chevy autos are reknowned for their long life and ability to handle copious amount of power i live in the dallas area and a manual would be much harder to drive in the traffic here now if i still lived out in the sticks like i used to a manual would be more fun safety wise an auto is less distracting i would hate to have to be shifting gears while i was trying to ease into traffic in the freeways here performance wise i can hold my own against any stock mustang or camaro w a five speed all of this imho robert l loper infinity is a notion best contemplated robertll flopn dseg ti com in a warm bed texas instruments inc my opinions are my own not ti s
rec.autos	re too fast in article qkon re armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes larger engine that s what the sho is a slightly modified family sedan with a powerful engine they didn t even bother improving the brakes that shows how much you know about anything the brakes on the sho are very different inch or i forget discs all around vented in front the normal taurus setup is smaller discs front drums rear your argument still boils down to an sho shouldn t be driven fast because i jim frost say it isn t designed to go fast pffffftttttt if you think so you sure don t pay attention to my postings damn straight you re one of those people who makes stuff up and tries to pawn it off as god s own truth if i want lies i can go listen to television the wharf rat
rec.autos	re where can i get a new york taxi in article ncrcan canada ncr ca tnelson ncrcan canada ncr ca tim nelson writes the older ny taxis were made by the checker car company and i would love to have one or is the checker car company still in business checker motors went out of business in it s hard to get old checkers that are worth restoring since almost every one was a fleet vehicle that was driven into the ground if you can get a body in decent shape the mechanicals should all be available somewhere checker used whatever parts were around for instance i had a chevy straight six and a gmc truck radiator and a ford rear in mine the model that i am looking for is the checker marathon actually you want a checker special if you can find one good luck i m sorry i let mine go
rec.autos	differences in insurance companies rates i am considering buying an new car so i called three insurance companies in california to get estimates i asked for the same coverage and same deductibles most of the companies charge you according to your zip code others charge according to your city anyhow i gave the same zip code and city to all three places here s what i found for a integra gs aaa yr state farm yr allstate yr aaa is non profit so they said i could also expect to receive about back at the end of the year still there is a huge gap between all of these companies state farm wants more than twice as much as allstate i think i should be suspicious but i ve never heard anybody else complain any comments thanks gregg l kasten gregg cs stanford edu
rec.autos	re honda accord brake problem joni ciarletta writes my honda accord just hit the magic mile mark and now all sorts of things are beginning to go bad the latest problem i am experiencing is with my brakes they still stop the car fine but once i am stopped completely my brake pedal will sink another or inches all by itself if feels really strange and i am worried my brakes will quit working one of these days i checked my brake fluid and the reservoir was full but the fluid itself looked really dirty like dirty oil i called my mechanic and he told me i need a new brake master cylinder which will cost me a whopping you are not alone my honda accord with miles on it started showing the same behavior i replaced the brake master cylinder myself it took about an hour and cost about sure beats paying to have someone else do it if i wanted to rebuild my own master cylinder instead of putting in a rebuilt one it would have cost only to for the rebuild kit the honda brake master cylinder is easy to get to two bolts attach it to the engine compartment two brake lines enter the master cylinder the tricky part was that the brake lines were stuck tight my craftsmen open end wrench rounded off the bolt heads i had to use vise grips to loosen those suckers wow best invention since sliced bread after that it was very easy bolt the new part in place add new brake fluid and bleed the brakes this is quite easy even for a beginner my local auto parts store had a repair manual for the honda accord it had detailed diagrams of the master brake cylinder and a step by step procedure for replacing it
rec.autos	re options that would be great to have in a previous article parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr says a list of options that would be useful they can be existing options on a car or things you d like to have tripmeter great little gadget lets you keep rough track of mileage makes a good second guesser for your gas gauge full size spare built in mountings and power systems for radar detectors a fitting that allows you to generate household current with the engine running and plug ins in the trunk engine compartment and cabin feel free to add on power windows dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	manual shift bigots now my ego with regards to my shifting ability is as big as anyone else s but i just ordered my first car with an auto trans i wasn t planning on it but after driving a few i was convinced things have changed since the days of slip n slide withe powerglide they shift better than i do there s no clutch to wear out honda wanted for my wd wagon last year got it done for it only costs about in gas milage on the highway and it makes it easier to concentrate on all the radios in my car oddly enough while two of my best friends both in the auto industry here in the motor city have switched wholeheartedly to autos their wives insist on manual shift envy braggadocio aside given today s technology and the warranties they re handing out the auto trans seemed like an excellent choice call me a convert mike
rec.autos	re saturn manual transmission problem in article ka crdnns crd ge com cimjfg sn utica ge com writes after many trips to the dealer who has admittedly been patient with me they are admittedly going to do nothing about it the dealer did however follow the bulletin and review proper shifing procedures with the owner my next attempt at satisfaction in the customer number but from the first round it doesn t sound too hopeful i m surprised i know of a local case where a guy took his saturn back five times to complain they hadn t properly eliminated a rattling noise so saturn gave him a new car call that number
rec.autos	re too fast in a previous article wrat unisql uucp wharfie says in article qkon re armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes larger engine that s what the sho is a slightly modified family sedan with a powerful engine they didn t even bother improving the brakes that shows how much you know about anything the brakes on the sho are very different inch or i forget discs all around vented in front the normal taurus setup is smaller discs front drums rear one i saw had vented rears too it was on a lot of course the sales man was a fool titanium wheels yeah right then later told me they were magnesium more believable but still crap since al is so m uch cheaper and just as good i tend to agree tho that this still doesn t take the sho up to standard for running on a regular basis the brakes should be bigger like or so take a look at the ones on the corrados where they have braking regulations drew
rec.autos	re sho and sc in a previous article a moe dseg ti com robert loper says in article c l re constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr ganglion ann arbor mi us david ganglion ann arbor mi us david hwang writes in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article chrissc qb d b netcom com chriss netcom com chris silvester writes why anyone would order an sho with an automatic transmission is beyond me if you can t handle a stick you should stick with a regular taurus and leave the sho to real drivers that is not to say that there aren t real drivers who can t use the stick eg disabled persons but they aren t in any position to use an sho anyway i would be willing to bet that if we removed the automatic transmissions from all performance type cars like the l mustangs camaros and the like we d cut down on the number of accidents each year autos are fine for sedate little sedans but they have no business in performance cars imho james i have to disagree with this i have a z with a and a speed auto w overdrive and it is really better that way chevy autos are reknowned for their long life and ability to handle copious amount of power i live in the dallas area and a manual would be much harder to drive in the traffic here now if i still lived out in the sticks like i used to a manual would be more fun safety wise an auto is less distracting i would hate to have to be shifting gears while i was trying to ease into traffic in the freeways here performance wise i can hold my own against any stock mustang or camaro w a five speed all of this imho all of my ho s disagree with your ho s i loved dallas rush hour in my stick detested it in the auto like i did any other time in the auto of course dalls rush hours are nothing from what i hear if i lived in la i might be of a different persuasion and just for the record rarely do you shift gears when merging into traffic that is what speeds are good for th is good up through around most of the time so you can just wind it out it s not going to hurt anything and keeps it in the powerband anyway only shift into top gear when you are exceeding redline in th fairly rare unless you drive a ferrari or some such i d bet or when you hit cruising speed where you feel comfortable or when my mother is sitting in the passanger seat complaining about how you wind her poor little engine way too hi just my ho s drew
rec.autos	re dents on car all you have to do is turn it in to the police like you would an accident get a report and send it in to your insurance company and they will contact the other guys insurance company and they will have to pay just as they would in an accident they caused thus no need to go to court a friend of mine did this and he got the money so it does work
rec.autos	re ultimate awd vehicles in article bcd b ecs umass edu sylveste ecs umass edu writes before the s became the s it was called the turbo quattro v this model did come in a wagon a very quick wagon very rare also mike sylvester umass yes i saw a turbo quattro wagon on i in nj on monday i thought audi stopped selling wagons in the us after the this is exactly the type of vehicle i would like to own i bet its price is times my car budget ron deblock rdb homxb att com that s a number in rdb not letter l at t bell labs somerset nj usa
rec.autos	re legal car buying problems rboudrie chpc org rob boudrie writes in article stratus swdc stratus com bob runway swdc stratus com bob hutson writes after agreeing to terms i signed the contract and drove home in my new car later that same night i noticed that the terms in the were different from the terms i had agreed to i made the stupid mistake of not checking everything on the contract this all happened last saturday i have heard that there is a cooling off law allowing me three days to reconsider the contract is this true can anyone point me to the law the transaction happened at the dealership if it matters this cooling off period applies only in certain situations lik ewhen you are solicited at home i also think the cooling off period ends if you actually accept the merchandise if this were not the case any car buyer would have the right to return a slightly used highly devalued car days after buying it yeah that s the trick if i want to buy a new car i d have a firend buy return one then go in and negotiate a better deal on a pre owned used car however if you agree some terms and then when about to sign the dealer slips you a contract with different terms and leads you to believe that it embodies the terms you verbally agreed to that is fraud there is no day limit on restitution for fraud you may have to sue and win to get out of this you will almost certainly have to threaten to sue john oswalt jao megatest com or jao netcom com
rec.autos	re legal car buying problems in article apr chpc org rboudrie chpc org rob boudrie writes in article stratus swdc stratus com bob runway swdc stratus com bob hutson writes after agreeing to terms i signed the contract and drove home in my new car later that same night i noticed that the terms in the were different from the terms i had agreed to i made the stupid mistake of not checking everything on the contract this all happened last saturday i have heard that there is a cooling off law allowing me three days to reconsider the contract is this true can anyone point me to the law the transaction happened at the dealership if it matters this cooling off period applies only in certain situations lik ewhen you are solicited at home i also think the cooling off period ends if you actually accept the merchandise if this were not the case any car buyer would have the right to return a slightly used highly devalued car days after buying it yeah that s the trick if i want to buy a new car i d have a firend buy return one then go in and negotiate a better deal on a pre owned used car for discussion purposes only on the other hand if it can be proven it s possible the changed terms could be thrown out the question will be whether the agreement contains a merger clause see ucc parol evidence if we re talking about warranties then of course ucc should be looked at but we have so little information that none of us can say anything conclusive daniel reitman the uniform commercial code protects the innocent purchaser but it is not a shield for the sly conniver the blindly naive or the hopelessly gullible atlas auto rental corp v weisberg misc d n y s d n y city civ ct
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast dont get me wrong i love to drive in the left lane fast but when i overtake cars who are on the right i slow down a tad bit if i were to rely on the j udgement of the other car to recognize the speed differential i would be the stupid one just to satiate my curiosity why would this make you the stupid one it seems to me everybody should be aware enough of what is going on you do not need i couldnt agree more that is how it should work people should also always see motorcycles too i constantly scan behind me i have one of those wink mirrors and two outside mirrors i actually spend just as much time checking my six cops you know i still get caught off guard every now and then maybe i didnt word it right the first time what i was trying to say was that if you plan to blow by somebody at a very high speed differential and you assume you are safe because the guy sees you you are stupid of course it depends on the circumstances i have had some very scary instances when i assumed this and i dont think all of the fault was the other guy now if he was going in a thats a whole different story
rec.autos	re dumb options list in a previous article parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr says the idea here is to list pointless options you know stuff you can get on a car that has no earthly use a fitting that allows you to generate household current with the engine running and plug ins in the trunk engine compartment and cabin feel free to add on regards charles x within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in a previous article gwm spl spl loral com gary w mahan says dont get me wrong i love to drive in the left lane fast but when i overtake cars who are on the right i slow down a tad bit if i were to rely on the j udgement of the other car to recognize the speed differential i would be the stupid one just to satiate my curiosity why would this make you the stupid one it seems to me everybody should be aware enough of what is going on you do not need i couldnt agree more that is how it should work people should also always see motorcycles too i constantly scan behind me i have one of those wink mirrors and two outside mirrors i actually spend just as much time checking my six cops you know i still get caught off guard every now and then maybe i didnt word it right the first time what i was trying to say was that if you plan to blow by somebody at a very high speed differential and you assume you are safe because the guy sees you you are stupid of course it depends on the circumstances i have had some very scary instances when i assumed this and i dont think all of the fault was the other guy now if he was going in a thats a whole different story ok i can agree to this because as we have both proved what is ideally supposed to happen isn t always and even though i m rearely the one doing the passing i don t see where it makes you stupid but i agree that if you think you are safe because the other guy is supposed to have been paying attention then yes you are just as dumb as the other maybe dumber hasta drew
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time from article pq i a f news ysu edu by ak yfn ysu edu john r daker cup holders driving is an importantant enough undertaking ashtrays smokers seem to think it s just fine to use the road oh sure sorry but the absence of a cupholder is not gonna discourage anyone from eating drinking in the car let s just put one in anyway so at least they don t have the further distraction of trying not to spill it furthermore you are obviously not a smoker on a cold day it takes a certain skill to toss a butt out of a cracked window without having it wind deflect into the back seat also just cause some smokers use the window doesn t mean all of us do this reminds me of one pleasant feature in the otherwise ergonomically hellish interior of the alfa romeo milano you could ash your cigarette without even removing your hand from the wheel the tray was right there fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs any gold trim these i will agree are abominations right along with the fake continental spare tire kit it s sad watching those little old ladies try to load their groceries into the trunk with that huge tire medallion in the way most pitiful fake convertible top on a cadillac cimarron with all the chrome door trim still visible not fooling anyone of course there was that hyundai excel i once saw a laszlo csd csd uwm edu redhead afficionado extraordinaire and v little canadia s minister of fine tobaccos o cigaret brands sampled import luxury handrolling these opinions are not necessarily mine or mine either can anyone bum me a sig
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all tim in article mar uncavx unca edu bwillard uncavx unca edu wrote saab ignition is on floor actually this started as a great idea before steering column locks became popular saab installed a gearshift lock put the car in reverse remove the key and the car stays in reverse also suppose you get into your car and a thug comes up and demands your keys at gunpoint you hand them over he gets in and has no idea where to put the key at this he will run away or perhaps shoot you anyway i heard this actually happened somewhere btw i hear that the saab s new successor will have the ignition on the console between the seats where it belongs a laszlo csd csd uwm edu redhead afficionado extraordinaire and v little canadia s minister of fine tobaccos o cigaret brands sampled import luxury handrolling these opinions are not necessarily mine or mine either can anyone bum me a sig
rec.autos	re ad said nissan altima best seller in article r vk innaft cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes i too was puzzled by this obvious untruth what i think is going on is that nissan claims that the altima is the best selling new car namelplate in the us i think i have this near verbatim lee iaccoca s statistics dept would have been proud of that sentence note that the corolla prism are also new designs but hey are not new nameplates i guess nissan doesn t even sell as many altimas as toyota does corollas or there would be no nameplate qualifier but waiiiiiit isn t nissan officially registering the car as far as government paperwork goes nissan stanza altima to avoid costly and lengthy paperwork i read this on the net a while ago and someone actually may have said there s a little stanza logo on the altima somewhere you can have it both ways spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in i post therefore i armm
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all tim in article apr exu ericsson se exulox exu ericsson se lasse ohlsson t tdt writes in article cas org sdm cas org writes imho the dumbest thing we ever did in copying the japanese was moving the dimmer switch from the floor to the lever controlling the turn signal cruise the federal government has mandated that all passenger cars by model year return to the floor mounted dimmer switch a study by the national highway traffic safety administration nhtsa has found that an unacceptable percentage of after dusk collisions were the direct result of unskilled drivers getting their left foot stuck in the steering wheel ron gaskins c reg koptsw delcoelect com automotive electronic systems delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in ron gaskins c reg koptsw delcoelect com automotive electronic systems delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in
rec.autos	re warning please read in article r d d s agate berkeley edu bh anarres cs berkeley edu brian harvey writes rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don t read that much about violence against teenagers such as george bush burying alive tens of thousands of unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying to surrender with bulldozers on the other hand i think it is true without singling out teenagers for blame that violence is more socially acceptable than it used to be those of us who d like to discourage violence have plenty of work to do with people of all ages i didn t know george could drive a bulldozer
rec.autos	re re toyota land cruiser worth it in response to a post about suv s i got several unsolicited recommendations to check out the land cruiser despite its astronomical price the toyota dealer told me it s a cult car if a car is good enough to create a passionate and loyal following there must be something really extraordinary about it so all you land crusher cultists here is your chance to convert me jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet inc based on my experience with a fj the hard top jeep style model i would definitely give a new model consideration if i were in the market the older models are very well built unless toyota lost its mind i would assume until proven otherwise that the newer models have inherited some if not all of the qualities of their ancestors two major differences in the running gear that i m aware of need study my has a solid front axle housing whereas the newer models have independant front suspension the solid axle is theoretically stronger and more reliable than the newer model but only experience will tell the independant front suspension is no doubt a compromise made to satisfy the typical user who will never need a real utility vehicle the second difference is the type of transfer case used on the newer models i m not sure but i think tioyota went to a full time wd or all wheel drive system the older landcruisers have a lock up type both have their advantages and disadvantages paul hovnanian hovnania atc boeing com std disclaimers apply
rec.autos	re is car saftey important jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article r jr m v armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes tcorkum bnr ca trevor corkum writes i figure that mph collisions into brick walls aren t common enough for me to spend that much extra money for protection but there are lots of low speed collisions that do worry me get into an mph accident and you may reconsider i ve been in one and it is really scarey my life is something i value more than a car s looks or handeling consider it insurance it may not happen often but when it does you ll sure be glad you got a safe car granted the tests aren t perfect but i d much rather be in a car that did well in the test than a car that did horribly you raise a valid point but again it s a tradeoff how much money do you want to spend for that kind of protection you could buy a volvo saab or benz and get really good crash protection and other luxuries but you ll pay significantly more for it in my case it s out of the question because all of those cars are beyond my budget even in high speed head on collisions the most beneficial item you can have is a good old point seatbelt nowadays at least in the us you get an airbag if you get a point belt so presumably you get an added safety benefit there as well that s something i certainly look for and which can be had in inexpensive cars my of course jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re best radar detector valentine troy sequent com troy wecker writes there is no question that the valentine has good range but not significant enough to be or times as expensive as some of the others the big win with the v is not its range but rather its directionality and multiple transmitter tracking which you later called a gimmick a conclusion i disagree with since the detector incorporates multiple receivers it s not surprising that it s significantly more expensive while the added capabilities may not help you there is added value for those of us who live in areas where there are a lot of false alarms summary valentine way too expensive and not a significantly better performer i certainly call it interesting but i m another person who thinks that the added value might be coming at too high a cost very adequate radar detectors are available for less than half the cost and one of them has suited me rather well if i did more long distance travelling in areas i m not familiar with i d probably consider getting the v because it s additional information would be useful in discriminating false alarms jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time r vmcms csuohio edu writes in article c lz jus news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes laszlo csd csd uwm edu tyson f nuss writes from article pq i a f news ysu edu by ak yfn ysu edu john r daker fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs any gold trim these i will agree are abominations right along with the fake continental spare tire kit it s sad watching those little old ladies try to load their groceries into the trunk with that huge tire medallion in the way most pitiful fake convertible top on a cadillac cimarron with all the chrome door trim still visible not fooling anyone of course there was that hyundai excel i once saw i have seen a cutlass supreme coupe gm with a vinyl roof ditto a taurus shoot the owners now before it s too late it gets better i ve seen them on a door escort chevy s blazer and even a chevy astro mini van a mini van w a fake convertible top is not something you want to see just after eating and better yet there s a chevette in town with wire crome wheels vinyl roof tacky paint job and a continental spare showing the wire crome wheel within of course i m scared to look on the inside and have only seen it rolling down the road and i too was glad i hadn t just ate bob martel lady luck must have been a wonderful girl bob cua csuohio edu she s never been a friend of mine r vmcms csuohio edu the alan parsons project the b lives chris t ward dod don t take life too seriously you can never come out of it alive
rec.autos	re dealer cheated me with wrong odometer reading need help in article qvrnpinnnid shelley u washington edu yongje hardy u washington edu yong je lim writes subject dealer cheated me with wrong odometer reading need help here is a story i bought a car about two weeks ago i finally can get hold of the previous owner of the car and got all maintanence history of the car in between and the instrument pannel of the car has been replaced and the odometer also has been reset to zero therefore the true meter reading is the reading before replacement plus current mileage that shows mile difference comparing to the mileage on the odometer disclosure from the dealer never told me anything about that important story i hope that i can return the car with full refund do u think this is possible does anyone have similar experiences any comments will be appreciated thanks something that happened in south africa about a year ago a dealer sold a mercedes with an odometer reading of k kilometers to a lady turned out that the actual reading should have been k court case followed because lady said she wouldn t have bought a car with that much km s dealer found quilty fined and had to take back the car i think you have a case if you can get a sworn statement from the previous owner take the car back to the dealer and threaten him or something gerrit
rec.autos	re is car saftey important in article apr bnr ca tcorkum bnr ca trevor corkum writes subject is car saftey important i was recently thumbing through the lemon aid new car guide what i found was a car would be given a recommended under the picture while a few sentences later noting how a driver and passenger were virtually guaranteed to be killed in a front end collision the most highly recommended small car the civic has the worst crash rating of all of the small cars listed there were many such cases of great vehicles where you wouldn t survive an accident is it only me or is safety not one of the most important factors when buying a car definitely safety is an important criterium for me when buying a car i won t buy a small car like a civic or whatever great safety handling speed for me seems to me that you would be more dead in a small car than a large car after an accident gerrit
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering john kissane motorola ireland ltd o o uucp uunet motcid glas kissanej mahon industrial estate internet kissanej glas rtsg mot com blackrock cork ireland u
rec.autos	re warning please read in article r d d s agate berkeley edu bh anarres cs berkeley edu brian harvey writes rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don t read that much about violence against teenagers such as george bush burying alive tens of thousands of unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying to surrender with bulldozers i didn t know george bush could drive a bulldozer kee ripe jim grey jwg acd acd com
rec.autos	re water in trunk of probe in article r crn g transfer stratus com tszeto sneezy ts stratus com tommy szeto writes water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend s ford probe every once in a while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk i would guess this usually happens after a good thunder storm a few qs is this a common problem where are the drain holes located for the hatch i had the same problem in my mx luckily i had it fixed under warranty i think they replaced a tail light gasket check with a dealer it s a known problem robert k abbott abbott tps enet dec com
rec.autos	mr car cover for sale for sale fitted car cover specifically for mr top of the line evolution tm fabric used for less than months the cover is in excellent condition no rips cuts stains or other blemishes it has grommets for a locking cable the color is silver price f o b will ship collect please contact wchutt monsanto com or phone at after pm cdt
rec.autos	re opel owners in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader chintan amin llama uiuc edu if it looks like a miniature corvette it would be an opel gt the headlights are flipped over by pulling a lever inside chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in a previous article eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot says in article r vofinn usenet pa dec com tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are go writes are there any mr owners or motor head gurus out there that know why my mr s engine sounds noisy the mr s engine is noisy at the best of times but not even a nice nose it s one of those very ugly noises assuming yours is a non turbo mr the gruffness is characteristic of a large inline that doesn t have balance shafts i guess toyota didn t care about little details like that when they can brag about the mid engine configuration and the flashy styling myself i automatically cross out any car from consideration or recommendation which has an inline larger than liters and no balance shafts it is a good rule of thumb to keep in mind if you ever want a halfway decent engine if the noise really bugs you there is nothing else that you can do except to sell it and get a v eliot nice theory too bad the mr s never came with a four cylinder over liters more like or did they were the nonturbo mr ii s or some such i also understand that anyone using balancing shafts on four cylinders must pay saab a royalty for using their patented design like porsche s i c ya drew
rec.autos	re water in trunk of probe tszeto sneezy ts stratus com tommy szeto writes water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend s ford probe every once in a while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk i would guess this usually happens after a good thunder storm a few qs is this a common problem yes this is a common problem the leaks occur through the seal of the taillights unfortunately ford has this with most probes and does not have a recall for it very dissatisfying to say the least where are the drain holes located for the hatch there is no drain holes that i know of i used a margine tub to drain it regretably i waited three months as i was short cash and they wouldn t fix it under warrantee then i paid dearly as it messed up my electrical system including a balance motion sensor which is located near the fuel shutoff in the trunk this resulted in my passive restraints malfunctioning they would not retract so i ended up paying about to have the sensor replaced to have the tail lights resealed they firts replaced the hatch gasket which i insisted was not the problem so they did not charge me for that when i proved to be right not to mention the water damage to the covers to the trunk spare com partment and algae in the taillights very annoying don t let the water problem go get it fixed or you ll pay more later considering how common a problem it is i hope every one complains to ford thanks for any info tom tom szeto no not those peanuts the ones on the tszeto sneezy ts stratus com bottom ggnuuaahuuhh include disclaimer h homer simpson
rec.autos	re are bmw s worth the price in article ceylon gte com hhd harvey gte com horace dediu writes in article pvjlninnckf daffy sps mot com shantanu risc sps mot com shantanu ganguly writes some comments a good performance and mid and high speeds can be obtained by adjusting the top gear and final drive ratios contrary to popular misperception a number of japanese cars have quite good performance from in top gear no problem with that the question is do they perform consistently in all conditions roads winds and curves at that speed and do so for hours on end year after year without giving the driver white knuckles from my experience on the autobahns autostrade a good touring car can be easily distinguished by its poise at mph the best stay on cruise control at for hours i ve seen the typical boy racer in a fiat try to keep up sure they hit the century mark but if the wind blows the wrong way they change lanes and if on an overpass they may fly right into a guardrail the buffeting at can be severe enough to make the hood bend tires at can melt and a pothole can kill many german cars are designed for this environment even if they can t seem to get out of their own way from a stop light mercedes come to mind in particular and another design point is fuel economy at those speeds the germans gear the car for very good high speed efficiency a typical m b e turns at almost a stall good point i have no idea how either of my hondas will handle at mph nor do they reach however using high to be mph a they are quite amenable to long high speed drives i ve done several k mile trips in my civic with no problems whatsoever the last big trip i made was driving from new york to texas i remember driving miles a day at typically mph without any problems i m sure i would have been more comfortable driving a benz but no white knuckles no problems with winds and curves then there was the trip back from new orleans after mardi gras where we were doing all the way to houston no problems b both my cars have surprising good fuel economy at high speeds i see no difference between sustained mph and sustained mph on the trip back from new orleans we got about mpg in my integra quite ok mind you the engine revs to almost k at the civic is markedly better than the integra in fuel economy k miles down the road i still get mpg at mph driving b i can t understand why these high scale european marquees are afraid to design engines that can be repeatedly revved to near redline in the low gears i have been doing that for that last k miles with my lowly civic with no detriment to either the engine or the clutch and getting excellent mpg to boot i d call this an engineering hack to cover up design deficiencies at k miles you d still be breaking in a high scale european marquee they typically are designed to last miles per engine mi per chassis the record is now over miles on a benz diesel and i ve read about transmissions lasting miles speaking of now now you can t compare a diesel with a gasoline engine i see enough bmws and gasoline mercs for sale that have k miles on them and advertise rebuilt engines if honda was to build an accord for k i d darn well expect the sucker to last k miles diesels they have very good efficiency at the cost of acceleration and are very popular in all european cars diesel is considered the green fuel from the smallest econoboxes to the luxo barges again we see a difference in mentality diesels in the us are considered slightly worse than useless and extremely dirty to boot so you can t give them away ever got caught behind a early s sdl at a stop light it s not pleasant the newer mb s are a lot better though the diesel volvos and vws are probably the smelliest offenders as for economy why should we care gas is cheap i personally wouldn t buy a diesel car for any reason what does it buy me shantanu ganguly somerset motorola phone motorola inc mail drop oe fax william cannon drive w austin tx email shantanu ibmoto com oakhill sps mot com
rec.autos	re bimmer vs beamer mark monninger markm latium wrote although not in direct response to the referenced article just to set the record straight beamers are bmw motorcycles bmw cars are bimmers please let s get our terms straight actually some purists would argue that the only true bimmer is a round tail light or mark back when i was building round tail light s they were bimmers it was only when the red suspendered reganomics generated quiche eating yuppies got into the market that they became beamers and the hood ornaments started disappering andrei
rec.autos	car alarm info ungo box i want to get a car alarm and i am thinking about getting an ungo box does anyone out there have any knowledge or experience with any of these alarms how about price ranges for the different models are these good car alarms please email me any responces cak ns lehigh edu chad chad
rec.autos	re water in trunk of probe the rubber drain plugs under my carpet in my mazda glc leaked like the ones are doing under your spare in the probe i tooke them out and put some silicone sealant on them and put them back in
rec.autos	re viper in article c jnha ib murdoch acc virginia edu rmt r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen writes last night i had a dream that my dad bought a viper i took it out for a test drive without his knowledge and had to push it all the way home just to avoid a ticket wierd dream i wonder what it means you probably should told you dad to buy that car than your dream might come true
rec.autos	re saturn s pricing policy in article qn m c s vela acs oakland edu mje pookie pass wayne edu writes i just ordered a saturn sl after considering a few imports frankly the saturn stuff deleted saturn also has a good extended warranty program for year k miles fully refunded if you don t use it that works out to an actual cost of or so based on the year treasury rates using savings account rates it s more like in the first three years it also buys you free rental during any warranty work without counting against the refund mike in general extended warranties are a ripoff this yr k is really only yr k because you get the yr k one free with the car also is there perhaps a deductible you pay each and every time you use the warranty also are certain items excluded from coverage on the extended warranty and if you use it at year for some buck job and pay a deduct and then you have used it so no refund ever again extended warranties are ripoff high profit items for the dealer
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will be replaced next year with all new models junk they ve made the c d lists for years due to their excellent handling and acceleration they have been around since about oh or so they re not the newest on the lot and mileage is about five to eight mpg under the class leader you can get into a l v hp shadow for k the i turbo a bit more and a droptop for k
rec.autos	re toyota land cruiser worth it my wife and i looked at and drove one last fall this was a model it was wayyyyyyyyy underpowered i could not imagine driving it in the mountains here in colorado at anything approaching highway speeds i have read that the new models have a newer improved hp engine i m quite serious that i laughed in the salesman face when he said once it s broken in it will feel more powerful i had been used to driving a jeep l hp engine i believe the s land cruisers land yachts were l the sames as the runner which is also underpowered in my own personal opinion they are big cars very roomy but nothing spectacular tom vervaeke email tvervaek cs itc hp com hewlett packard co phone i love animals they taste delicious
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i m interestend in determining whether or not these things are true has anyone out there with geico made a claim i d be interested in hearing whether or not you were satisfied with the service and whether you then had trouble renewing your policy i m also interested in any good or bad stories about liberty mutual or state farm
rec.autos	re warning please read mchaffee dcl nxt michael t chaffee writes be valued in terms of money because they are human beings i submit that they are not human beings such submissions have been made before e g regarding jews in article apr nuscc nus sg matmcinn nuscc nus sg matthew macintyre at the national university of senegal writes absolutely a scratch on my car bothers me more than the death of any number of scum all of you feel the same way you just won t admit it when are people going to realise that the mere fact that a piece of flesh moves and has the approximate shape of a human being does not in itself mean that it has rights all you dirty harry types eager to pull a gun on some scum guilty of scratching your stupid painted metal boxes on wheels have you ever killed a human to speak so lightly about such matters sergei
rec.autos	re ford and the auto hello my name is russell wong and i am doing a research project on henry ford and his automobile i need information on whether ford is partially responsible for all of the car accidents and the depletion of the ozone layer also any other additional information will be greatly appreciated thanks so would mr benz eh and mr chevy mr toyokogio and mr insert car name here dan reed blu cellar org eat your pets poke out your eyes kill your boss burn down your house move to elmer nj rip out your nose hairs with a lead holder use x acto knives for dental work hit your mother people get a life md
rec.autos	re renting from alamo cause a friend rented a car last year and it turned out he needed a lot more insurance than what s included in the base price but on the other hand he didn t rent it from alamo probability that i ll be needing more insurance unless you have an accident you won t need more joe let me see unless you have an accident you won t need more hmmmmmmm bijan
rec.autos	re sport utility vehical comparisons any opinions karl elvis macrae kmac cisco com wrote i m looking at the following three suv s anyone who s driven all three have any strong opinions ford explorer toyota runner nissan pathfinder well i was just in your position and i drove all three and liked all three it was a toss up i marginally went with the pathfinder based on reliability and looks i don t think you can go wrong with any of them john jdenune pandora sdsu edu
rec.autos	re changing oil by self from drew kinglear cs colorado edu drew eckhardt in article pod sour sw oz au pod sour sw oz au paul o donnell wri in qgi einnhs skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca yik chong lam writes hello does anyone know how to take out the bolt under the engine compartment should i turn clockwise or counter i tried any kind of lubricants wd etc but i still failed do you think i can use a electric drill change to a suitable bit to turn it out if i can succeed can i re tighten it not too tight is it safe without oil leak you shouldn t need any power tools to undo it an electric drill probably won t give you much extra torque anyway wd will help things that are seized due to rust but this is unlikely for a drain plug you should be able to undo it with a spanner when it loosens it will probably become very loose and you will bash your knuckles on the underside of the car this is the price you must pay for doing you own work no that s the price you pay for not knowing how to use a wrench you want to pull the wrench towards you away from painful knuckle splitting hard things if you can t pull it because things are in the way push it with an open hand i find this method much better myself too although i do really hate it when the bolt finally comes loose and the wrench and my hand both come crashing into my face after coming to which is about minutes later i change my clothes because by this time all the oil has drained on me and ice my entire face and suck down about tylenol to ease the pain later in the day i then proceed with refilling the engine oil it s just crazy how i try and change the oil on my cars in one weekend i go through about bottles of tylenol and bags of ice john
rec.autos	re the kuebelwagen in article c k co f mentor cc purdue edu thwang mentor cc purdue edu tommy hwang writes sorry for the mis spelling but i forgot how to spell it after my series of exams and no on hand reference here is it still possible to get those cute wwii vw jeep wanna be s a replica would be great i think greetings you may be in luck i seem to recall seeing a blurb in one of the kit car magazines about a company in norway who pulled a mould sp off a real kubel and has adapted it to the beetle floorpan as for the suspension all i can remember about the vw thing i used to own is that it had about more suspension travel than a stock beetle but i d heard that there were after market parts for off road use that were as good or better note that the major difference looks wise between a kubel a thing are the hood and the fenders the kubel had an external spare mounted on the hood and the hood sloped down for visibility sharply and had rounded fenders the thing has a lightly sloped hood with the spare mounted inside unless moved to make for more luggage space and has half hexagon shaped fenders imagine a nut large enough to put a tire in and cut off the bottom half of it unfortunately i don t have that info anymore try stopping at a local bookstore and copying down the phone numbers for the two big mag s and calling them they might be able to get the number for you don t forget to calculate the time difference to norway before calling later kc a quick bones help me get include o this klingon off my ss std disclaimer h damn it jim i m a kking cs uah edu doctor not a bidet
rec.autos	re ultimate awd vehicles in article c l z e cbnewsj cb att com rdb cbnewsj cb att com ronald j deblock jr writes yes i saw a turbo quattro wagon on i in nj on monday i thought audi stopped selling wagons in the us after the this is exactly the type of vehicle i would like to own i bet its price is times my car budget think again thanks to minutes tick tick tick used quattros are bargains s go for about k s go for perhaps or k more the valve s are quite a bit more because of an enormous hp and torque gain i think they go for about to k if you can find one i have seen quite a lot of quattros not that many wagons though at the dealer lot they use very high quality paint and the entire car is zinc galvanized so it will never rust in short typically a yr old looks no more older than a year old and the bangers are bullet proof engines k out of one is not rare even for a turbo which is watercooled for the s then there are aftermarket chips that you can buy to bump up turbo boost if you are into luxo gizmos the cars are loaded with just about everything too the price of parts is a different story though eliot
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time x x fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs x any gold trim x x these i will agree are abominations right along with the fake x continental spare tire kit it s sad watching those little old ladies x try to load their groceries into the trunk with that huge tire medallion x in the way x most pitiful fake convertible top on a cadillac cimarron with x all the chrome door trim still visible not fooling anyone x of course there was that hyundai excel i once saw x least you think bad taste is something new back in the early s i saw a couple of cars with flocked paint jobs thats not a typo i think they sprayed on some kind of glue then blew on tiny pieces of nylon it comes out looking like felt can you picture a huge plymouth fury iii in dark blue felt i think i can even remember one guy who did it in red to a early s corvette that was after he had turned it into a station wagon mack costello mcostell oasys dt navy mil code formerly david taylor model basin carderock division hq nswc bethesda md phone
rec.autos	re fast idle on ford ranger ljbartel naomi b b ingr com les bartel writes it did it again this morning my ford ranger was idling at rpm ok so i exaggerated a little but it was idling very fast it has a liter carburated engine in it and no blipping of the throttle would cause the idle to drop back to normal i don t think the linkage is stuck what can i do to fix this problem this has been a problem from time to time but has straightened itself out until now i don t have a tach but by gauging by the sound of the engine it is idling about twice as fast as it should be this is down from what it was idling at when i pulled up at a stop light sometimes a bad choke pull off diaphram will cause a car to fast idle the pull off which is vacuum actuated provides a necessary pull in non cold weather conditions to get the idle off the the fast idle cam locate the fast idle cam on your vehicle and see if you can rotate it to produce a normal idle if so locate the diaphram and test it if you can t apply suction via a good piece of rubber vacuum hose with your mouth that will cause the diaphram to retract then it s bad and should be replaced bernie lofaso applied research labs
rec.autos	re water in trunk of probe jlong emcnext tamu edu james long writes in article r crn g transfer stratus com tszeto sneezy ts stratus com tommy szeto writes water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend s ford probe every once in a while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk i would guess this usually happens after a good thunder storm a few qs is this a common problem where are the drain holes located for the hatch i noticed this is my probe also when recently cleaning out the back i think the water is coming up through some rubber stoppered holes beneath the spare mine looked slightly worn and there was no water or water damage above the level of the spare area this has taken a low priority since i just found out while rotating my tires that i have a torn cv boot ugh i ve got an gt it has the smoked taillight assembly i think this is where the water is getting in when i first got it had it for a month one of the rear taillights fogged up with moisture i took it in to the dealer and they replaced the entire assembly it happened to the other one about months later this time i happened to look in the spare tire well and noticed water standing in there the dealer was more reluctant this time to replace it but i convinced them to fix it they must have had to deal with a number of other probes with the same problem i haven t noticed water in the taillamps or the trunk for the last years but just last month the taillamp just fogged up again i m going to try to take it back to get them to fix it again i m real tempted to drill some vent and drain holes in the tops and bottoms of the assembly and forget about it this is getting very annoying almost every other gt i ve seen has had this problem vel vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts il
rec.autos	x on off road rally joliet il attention all four wheel off road enthusiasts on off road rally sunday april th joliet illinois the event the joliet mud turtles a chicago land four wheel drive club is sponsoring an on off road rally sunday april th for those who ask what is an on off road rally well an on off road rally consists of the following an on the road rally where participants are given a set of directions and clues guiding participates around the joliet plainfield area the object is to navigate a course based on a set of directions and clues participants will be given a set of questions pertaining to the course which they must answer along the way points are awarded for the number of correct answers given directions will ultimately lead to an off road area where a four wheel drive course is set up at various locations in the on road course check points will be set up where participants will be asked other questions or requested to perform some activity e g tire roll truck tow basketball free throw etc for additional points an optional off road four wheel drive course where participants will navigate off road trails mud bogs and or hill climbs points are awarded for successfully navigating off road obstacles without getting stuck if you should get stuck which is half the fun anyway there will be assistance to get your vehicle unstuck so you can try it again the off road course will divided up based on tire size so stock x s as well as modified x s can run the course at the end of the rally trophies will be awarded to top scoring participants door prizes and dash plaques will also be given out food and drinks also available at the conclusion this is an organized activity sponsored by the joliet mud turtles so safety and fun is our foremost concern all x s must be street legal and have solid tow points for the off road section of the course we don t want to have to separate someone s bumper from their vehicle the particulars rally begins at instant replay plainfield road joliet il see map below registration is between and a m first truck out at a m rally date is sunday april th rain or shine there is an entry fee of per truck you must have a co driver passengers allowed a valid drivers license is required suggested equipment cb radio compass tow strap and clevis clip board and pencil no alcohol during rally for more information contact gary tom norm jr brian instant replay mi mi north rt exit rt canton larkin farm ave rd mi rt v exit b
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon markm bigfoot sps mot com mark monninger writes in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes several chemists already have come up with several substitutes for r you don t hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that is the people who stand to rake in that to per retrofit per automobile have mounted an organized campaign to squash those r substitutes out of existence if not ban them altogether on very shaky technical grounds at best on outright lies at worst now i m not saying you re wrong because i know that the r substitutes exist but this sounds a lot like the mpg carbs that the oil companies keep us all from getting these substitutes exist and at this time are available its the future availability that is in doubt ghg get it from people s welding supply butane propane you can mix this yourself so no one can ever regulate it away just make sure you use good quality dry gases i don t know of any mpg carb distributors jon hacker get the os march beta cd rom caltech pasadena ca for call ibm os hacker tumbler ridge caltech edu read about it in comp os os beta
rec.autos	wife wants convertible help my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car we live in south fla so we are definitely in the right are for one my wife has mentioned the miata but i think it is too small i would like to wait for the new mustangs dec i think anyone have any opinions on any all convertibles in a reasonable price range thanx
rec.autos	third party car antennas since this posting i ve received no replies or followups so i m posting here hoping for the feedback i didn t get in rec audio car article number newsgroups rec audio car path cbfsb cbnewsb cb att com vinlai from vinlai cbnewsb cb att com vincent lai subject third party car antennas message id apr cbfsb cb att com sender news cbfsb cb att com organization at t distribution na date tue apr gmt i recently saw a particular third party antenna on a new camry not mine but it caught my interest and a new it seems to replace the factory power antenna and is about a foot long made of plastic tubing i have seen them on quite a few cars but i can t find anything more about them in previous r a c articles nor in r a articles i d like to know all i can so any feedback is greatly appreciated mom we re hungry bud bundy why tell me peg bundy vincent lai vinlai cbnewsb att com forwards mail to vlai attmail com which eventually winds up in wcmnja lai somerset att com
rec.autos	re too fast in a previous article tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen says in article qh m b l armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes compare either to the porsche and you tell me which was designed to go fast you have a point about the brakes especially seeing as how the mustang doesn t even have disc brakes in the back but there are significant differences between the latest s and the late s s not the least of which is handling i m not i think you mean late s the biggest change that porsche undertook to alter the tailhappieness of their baby was way back in august for the model year when they stretched the wheelbase besides some people actually know how to take advantage of oversteer and enjoy it in europe the got low marks for high speed handling though to be fair they might have been comparing it to the vette s handling what was that phil hill famous race car driver said about the you should have seen what phil hill world champion had to say about the vette s he s driven turbo you can t make a thoroughbred out of a pig but you can have an awful fast pig yeah that was what he said paul frere agreed they both prefered the porsche modified by ruf to either of the vette s at that test al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don t you know that girls can t play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.autos	re sho and sc in article apr mksol dseg ti com a moe dseg ti com robert loper writes in article c l re constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr ganglion ann arbor mi us david ganglion ann arbor mi us david hwang writes i would be willing to bet that if we removed the automatic transmissions from all performance type cars like the l mustangs camaros and the like we d cut down on the number of accidents each year autos are fine for sedate little sedans but they have no business in performance cars imho james i have to disagree with this i have a z with a and a speed auto w overdrive and it is really better that way chevy autos are reknowned for their long life and ability to handle copious amount of power i live in the dallas area and a manual would be much harder to drive in the traffic here now if i still lived out in the sticks like i used to a manual would be more fun i don t know if it s as much an issue of their ablility to handle the power as it is the power they lose in the torque converter etc safety wise an auto is less distracting i would hate to have to be shifting gears while i was trying to ease into traffic in the freeways here performance wise i can hold my own against any stock mustang or camaro w a five speed however if you encounter a formula with l speed manual you ll be sol i m afraid btw i know of what i speak as a former owner of a l auto iroc and current owner of the aforementioned car chris s chris silvester any man capable of getting himself elected president chriss sam amgen com should by no means be allowed to do the job chriss netcom com douglas adams the hitchhiker s guide to the galaxy
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article c lmtr mo mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu za uberer writes in article qgi einnhs skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca yik chong lam writes hello does anyone know how to take out the bolt under the engine compartment should i turn clockwise or counter i tried any kind of lubricants wd etc but i still failed do you think i can use a electric drill change to a suitable bit to turn it out if i can succeed can i re tighten it not too tight is it safe without oil leak thank you very much in advance winson don t worry about leaks don t worry about which way to turn the damn thing take a good claw hammer and pry it straight out now you ll notice after all the oil pours out that there are no theads where there used to be thats why heli coils were invented yes buy a few of these gems and rethread the hole a little larger each time you change the oil when the hole gets too big for any heli coil you can buy its time to trade in the car
rec.autos	re too fast in article qmcih dhs armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes they light the highways in texas funny everywhere else i ve been they only light em at junctions and armadillo crossings texas is pretty much an edge case you can t assume that everywhere has roads in such good condition such flat terrain and such wide open spaces it just ain t so well let s see in just my own personal experience there s nevada new mexico texas wyoming utah south dakota nebraska minnesota montana florida and parts of louisianna nobody said let s go into town and drive on main st and you couldn t go that fast on the graveled washboard that passes for highway in some parts but that only really expensive cars should be driven fast crap is well crap wr
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast remember roads in america are not designed for speeds above meaning they would be safe at roads like the autobahn are smoother straiter wider and slightly banked example a few months back i was traveling late at night am or so and i was changing highways at a bent crosssing it curved off to the south east becoming hidden by trees after about ft and continued to the left strait north i wanted to turn north checked the south lane rolled into the crossing and checked the north lane nevertheless there wasn t a car in sight so i took one last look and pulled into the left hand lane now my car isn t a sec performer but i was in the corect lane and over in decent time even at i wasn t wasting time it was then that i checked my mirror and saw a mustang closing in my lane fast he had just turned the corner and was just noticing me luckly he saw me and changed lanes in time i estamate he was moving in excess of or so i was just a by stander i had no chance of runing from him or moving out of his way i m glad he saw my brake lights in time i shudder to think of what would have happened had i wainted to pull out and not left the time he needed to dodge me rule just because your car can do and your way is clear don t assume it will stay that way travis disclamer the ideas expressed above are in fact the same as my employer since i have none e mail flame at marshatt feserve cc purdue edu
rec.autos	q dings in the paint on my hood hello i have a toyota x and in the last few weeks i have been getting quite a few dings in the paint on the hood from rocks and debris off of the road i have never had any major problems with other car trucks in the past maybe a ding once in a while i went to the dealer and he said that it happens all of the time and he recomended putting a bug deflector on the hood he said that the trucks for some unknown reason seem to have this problem more than some cars it seems to me that either my luck is really bad or there might be a problem with the paint painted on a monday morning perhaps how well do these bug deflectors work for small road debris on trucks if anyone has any experiences suggestions please let me know thanks greg thorn wam umd edu
rec.autos	rfi art of clutchless shifting i m wondering if anybody else out there is a clutchless shifter i ve been doing it my self over miles on my current toyota truck i ve got over k i ve heard people talk about how doing this can damage a transmission my experiences suggest otherwise what techniques do you use on some old pieces of junk i drove the transmission was so worn that pumping the clutch was the only way to shift except clutchless to date i ve driven rabbits datsuns comets fords a chevy some where harder than others to shift but generally the higher the milage the smoother quicker easier they where to shift my technique is to ease back off the throttle and at the same time gently wrist back on the shift lever if for some reason i miss the shift window i lightly press the accelerator try agian i ve found that clutchless shifting is eaiser quicker at high rpms i also skip gears some times using krispy
rec.autos	re braindead drivers who don t look ahead in article apr cbnewsd cb att com hhm cbnewsd cb att com herschel h mayo writes anybody is going anywhere so i block the would be passers not only for my own good but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it ah we are looking for good people just like you we are a very concerned group of citizens who are absolutely disgusted at the way that the majority of drivers simply disobey traffic rules like going above the speed limit passing on our right and riding our tails while all the while we respectfully abide by the rules of this great country and maintain the mandated speed limits with our calibrated certified cruise controls while keeping the respectful car length distance mph speed how many times have you been ticked off by some moron who jumps ahead in the car lengths that you have left between you and the vehicle ahead of you while driving mph finally you have an option we are a totally member supported group that perform functions for our own good for the good of this great country but most of all for those unfortunate ones that are too stupid to realize it bless their souls for a paltry you can join citizens for rationally advanced piloting c r a p a non profit members only society but but but there is a slight hitch the initiation rite to be a full fledged member of this exclusive club you must proof that you are able to be in the fast lane of the busiest interstate in your area keep the correct car lenth mph speedand i know this can be difficult with those morons around not let anybody pass you not in the next lane not in the slow lane not in the breakdown lane not nowhere for a complete list of acceptable interstates and times send and by the way over of our members are highly regarded attorneys in the auto field and they are completely absolutely positively in the business only to serve your best interests as a testament to their virtues they will give members off the initial consultation fee feel free to drop me a line at your earliest convenience and remember only speed kills jit
rec.autos	lois chevrolet i was whatching the history of the indy the other day and early in the film around the s a name lois chevrolet came out of the blue i wanted to know if he is the chevrolet founder or mearly a driver who s name was called the same as the other guy s koni
rec.autos	help mercury capri query hi folks i recently bought a mercury capri my first car ever i have noticed a few problems with the car it gives very low gas mileage something like miles gallon i hear other car owners speak of gas mileage figures like miles gallon wow etc when i start the car it goes into high idling something like or is it rpm after driving or miles it comes down to or rpm i would like to know if there is any way by which i can fix these problems or is it natural for an old car like this it has done about miles someone suggested that i change rebuild recondition the carburettor i am not prepared to do it unless i am sure it will fix the problem and yes i got the car tuned up recently within the last miles or so please let me know if you have any suggestions please respond by email since i don t scan this newsgroup regularly thanks regards sudhi sira gopinath sudhindranath email sudhi ucs usl edu is he one of us or is he one of them so ask small minded men those of noble mind think the entire world as their family hitopadesha
rec.autos	help find stolen car i offered to relay this information for a ham friend of mine without internet access his name is robert bob wondolowski n kda and his car was a brown cutlas sierra sedan massachusetts plate adl his ht yaesu ft and mobile antenna were also included in the car it was stolen from lynn mass about days ago being on april if anyone has any information about the car s whereabouts please e mail me thank you for taking the time to read this message scott ehrlich internet wy z world std com amateur radio wy z packet radio wy z k ugm ma usa na scott ehrlich internet wy z world std com amateur radio wy z packet radio wy z k ugm ma usa na
rec.autos	subaru shop manuals for sale o subaru service manuals this is not a complete set but includes sections which cover mechanical components suspension wheels axles steering brakes pedals control cables heater ventilator air conditioning body body exterior doors windows seats seat belts interior instrument panel and electrical engine electrical system body electrical system wiring diagram and trouble shooting these are the genuine subaru issue manuals they are for model year but have plenty of good information that applies to other years as well and as long as i m posting end of car stuff o miscellaneous darkroom equipment solar enlarger several objective lenses with easel and timer negative carriers for mm and x misc printing masks developing tanks thermometer trays constant temperature bath ground glass mirrors darkroom lamps glassware el cheap o tripods and as they say much more o beautiful antique buffet solid cherry no veneer handmade with very interesting dovetail corners in the drawers built we think around not gaudy or covered with gew gaws a simple elegant piece of furniture but too big long tall deep for our little cape cod house will deliver pricier items ie over anywhere in the rochester area and will consider delivering the others will deliver any of it on uofr campus between now and graduation call or e mail paul or mary just south of rochester ny plkg ltd uhura cc rochester edu
rec.autos	isuzu amigo opinions wanted is there anyone out there in netland that has has had one of these can someone give me a non consumer reports review or point me to a source thanks scott sdexter ucrengr ucr edu computer science undergraduate university of california riverside internet sdexter technet shl com facilities engineer shl systemhouse inc technology network internet you say its gonna happen now what exactly do you mean you see i ve already waited too long and all my hope is gone the smiths
rec.autos	re options that would be great to have in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes a list of options that would be useful they can be existing options on a car or things you d like to have tripmeter great little gadget lets you keep rough track of mileage makes a good second guesser for your gas gauge full size spare built in mountings and power systems for radar detectors a fitting that allows you to generate household current with the engine running and plug ins in the trunk engine compartment and cabin feel free to add on ok how about a fuel gauge that really told you how much fuel was left like can i make it to where the gas is or should i get gouged right here at accurate to the tenth of a gallon would be great on contract to gk khalsa ncr engineering and manufacturing w bernardo dr san diego ca g k khalsa sandiego ncr com
rec.autos	runner and pathfinder recent changes i am interested in finding out how the runner and pathfinder have been updated in the past few years like new engine suspension and the like i noticed that the and runners are identical for example and was looking into buying a used one any info would be appreciated esp models years to check out or avoid thx andy brandt cs unc edu
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu darren r daubenspeck writes they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will be replaced next year with all new models junk they ve made the c d lists for years due to their excellent handling and acceleration they have been around since about oh or so they re not the newest on the lot and mileage is about five to eight mpg under the class leader you can get into a l v hp shadow for k the i turbo a bit more and a droptop for k as an ex fleet mgr of cars they were amoung the most trouble free of all models i bought one for my wife
rec.autos	re best radar detector in article apr lrc edu burnside br lrc edu writes in article apr opencon com giand opencon com deepak s gia nchandani writes mubashir cheema don t buy one that is the best way to avoid tickets i used to have one and whenever a cop would pull me over see the thing give me a ticket one time my sister was driving and had it in the glove compartment it was broken and she got a ticket in i had received tickets because of it one for my sister so a total of five that was five years ago now i don t have one and have not gotten a ticket my driving habits have not changed drastically only two days ago i was going mph on highway with mph limit cop saw me i break a little nothing happened i was driving a mini van with my family in it otherwise i have cutlass supreme which i do most of the times on the highway so basically my opnion is not to get one if you do get pulled over the cop will hear your excuse but if you have a radar detecter he will not again this has been my experienc just get a remote model that is not visible to the cop but be sure to get front and rear sensors you can also just put the detector off to the side on the dash so the cop doesn t see it right away valentine is the best detector by far as stated by car and driver and even tells you what direction the radar is coming from it also gives the amount of threats it is picking up so if you go through the same place everyday and it always goes off there you can glance at the number of threats the valentine is detecting to see if it is a genuine cop it s about and you can only get it factory direct one problem rob fusi rwf lehigh edu
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in article apr engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes if the noise really bugs you there is nothing else that you can do except to sell it and get a v perhaps a nice used pontiac fiero gt liters does anyone know if the motor mounts for the and the twin dual cam liter match the is supposedly derived from the pushrod which was a punched out liter should be a drop in replacement eh horses in a mid engine the size of a fiero larry smith smith ctron com no i don t speak for cabletron need you ask liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want it is the freedom to do whatever we are able
rec.autos	re most bang for k in article uupcb cutting hou tx us david bonds cutting hou tx us da vid bonds writes in rec autos cpkjp vm cc latech edu kevin parker writes i d like to get some feedback on a car with most bang for the buck in the to price range i m looking for a car with enough civility to be driven every day or even on long trips but when i hit the gas i want to fee l take a look at a taurus sho they can be found for k and are the ultimate in door sports cars performance similar to a mustang but quite civil and comfortable try to get a late model for the better shifter the cutting edge bbs cutting hou tx us a pcboard a system houston texas usa running uupcb well you could always go with a mustang lx with a pleasant v but the diamond star cars talon eclipse laser put out hp in the turbo models and hp in the awd turbo models these cars also have handling to match the muscle and are civil in regular driving conditions rather than having a harsh stiff ride the awd turbo is clearly the better choice of the two because of all that torque steer on the front drive model but you may have to go with a leftover or slightly used model for that price range tough decision rob fusi rwf lehigh edu
rec.autos	re birds are they physics majors in c pn p l darkside osrhe uoknor edu operator writes crazy question anyone ever wonder how birds can drop a load on a car going over mph i took a non stop trip got shitted on four times every time hitting the windshield not even the open sunroof guess we have conscientious birds was going mph i used to have a galaxie convertible was sitting at a light waiting for it to turn green it turned green but i hesitated a little sleeping i guess and a bird bombed me it landed directly in front of me at eye level i guess the bird miscalculated and thought i was going to take off right away and i m still trying to figure out the one i got under my rear bumper as well was the bird flying up and doing fancy acrobatics at my car and decided to drop one while executing a perfect loop tt mustang gt george kirkaldie pioneer audio control gkirkaldie sanity tdkcs waterloo on ca phoenix gold kicker flowmaster motorsport cambridge ontario canada a t a r i
rec.autos	any syclone or typhoon owners out there i want to start of list for syclone and typhoon owners if you are interested in participating please contact me via e mail merrill
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p writes help my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car we live in south fla so we are definitely in the right are for one my wife has mentioned the miata but i think it is too small i would like to wait for the new mustangs dec i think anyone have any opinions on any all convertibles in a reasonable price range thanx the olds supreme convertible got high marks in c d s recent test if you can get by the stupid body moldings and stuff the saab ragtop may be out of your range but its a good choice is there a new f car convertible the nissan sx convertible is a nice car also those immediately come to mind chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart c quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots wanted the best auto shifters on the street and not the track are those from porsche they wont change if you floor the gas during a turn a few years back a was in a sx auto you guys call it a sx without turbo and was going round a corner i floored it and next thing i know i was pointing backwards the other drivers seemed quite amused shaz
rec.autos	re improvements in automatic transmissions i just wanted to know to wheelspin in an auto you keep the gear in n gas it then stick the gear in d i ve never tried this but am sure it works but does this screw up the autobox we re having a bit of a debate about it here
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time dumbest options well here in the uk bmw offer a no smokers option it just means they take the fag lighter out big deal btw i just bought a honda crx f its neat did consider an mr targa mx you guys call it miata but that crx just one my heart with that body kit and spokes ps is richard out there somewhere
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all tim in article el targhee idaho amdahl com rbs sawtooth idaho amdahl com bob smith writes in article apr cas org sdm cas org writes imho the dumbest thing we ever did in copying the japanese was moving the dimmer switch from the floor to the lever controlling the turn signal cruise control bun warmer etc well my porsche had the dimmer on the turn signal stalk guess those dumb germans were copying the japanese too rest deleted not to mention my friend s citroen traction avant with the light switch and dimmer integrated in a single stalk off the steering column those dumb french were apparently copying the japanese before the germans roland
rec.autos	re what is volvo in article sernews raleigh ibm com mperry vnet ibm com mark perry writes hardly a good reason most us cars do too and plenty of people buy them in the us anyway i think the is quite a good looking car unlike the us influenced kevinh hasler ascom ch i don t think it s so easy to tell the from any other or series unless you look real close i really do think volvo s are all dogs though beacuse they are agricultural while previous volvos have been essentially very fast tractors the and series are far from agricultural in design or execution how many fwd tractors have you seen have godlier than thou advertising you state this like it is a bad thing remember car companies use ad agencies they don t do their own ads are part of renault is this true i know that they had done joint ventures with renault but i haven t heard about their subsumption into renault does this mean that the french government now owns volvo anyway renault makes some very nice cars they just don t sell em in n america however one thing that i do think is in their favour is that they are immediately recognisable as a volvo and that is not something you can say about most japanese manufacturers and ford saab also have a strong corparate look which like it or not is what i thing all car makers could aim for to make life a little more varied here here mperry vnet ibm com roland rhorwell atc boeing com
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in article c liw cax news rich bnr ca peon w o email eric youngblood writes in article qn lo c s vela acs oakland edu mje pookie pass wayne edu michael j edelman writes the big disadvantage of automatics is the hp they consume that never gets to the wheels in this respect they are at a disadvantage to a manual only when the torque converter is not locked up there are autos out there with converter lock up in nd rd and th gears dont forget that now that new speed manual trannys are available the drive train is more optimally geared to get the most out of the engine rare so are speed autos but very real bottom line is both manuals and automatics have vastly improved i think that automatics have advanced far more than manuals especially in shift intelligence i say that a smart automatic is better than the majority of drivers in terms of being in the right gear at the right time which to me is more important than torque converter losses i prefer the stick for fun and the auto for traffic who says you can t have your cake and eat it too a well designed shifter will easily facilitate manual clutchless shifts i am referring to the much copied mercedes jagged gate the only department where you lose out is in the number of ratios available and of course the converter losses if ayrton senna can drive a racecar with fully automatic transmission it can t be half bad eliot
rec.autos	re warning please read callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes i m not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons but i would ask you if you would have thought seriously about shooting a kid for setting off your alarm i can think of worse things in the world glad you got out of there before they did anything to give you a reason to fire your gun i think people have a right to kill to defend their property why not be honest do you really care more about scum than about your car
rec.autos	re sho and sc in article c l re constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes why anyone would order an sho with an automatic transmission is beyond me if you can t handle a stick you should stick with a regular taurus and leave the sho to real drivers that is not to say that there aren t real drivers who can t use the stick eg disabled persons but they aren t in any position to use an sho anyway actually disabled persons have been known to drive in scca races i d be careful about making sweeping generalizations here i d prefer a manual transmission but the early sho had an awful transmission that felt like it came out of a truck or something it was almost enough to make me want an automatic teddy
rec.autos	re too fast in article qmcih dhs armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes the quality of autobahns is something of a myth the road surface isn t much different to a typical tx freeway they are better in terms of lighting safety signs roadmarkings etc they light the highways in texas funny everywhere else i ve been they only light em at junctions sorry by they i meant autobahns not us freeways i won t even get into how much road markings vary between states and localities except to say that there are some areas where markings are essentially nonexistant than most of the roads here a dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at will kill you at don t get me wrong i love to it would have to be quite severe i don t recall any us freeway without road damage warnings that i would regard as unsafe at in any decent well damped car i suspect you have very limited experience us freeways vary dramatically particularly between states i can name a number of interstate highways in various parts of the country where would be very optimistic in any car well i ve driven in every state but alaska and drive about k per year i take long cross country trips any chance i get its fun for me and i can get reimbursment my job allows me to drive rather than fly not to labor the point but i ve driven just about every freewayin the us germany uk and france plus some in mexico which was surpisingly good i m not sure what you call quite severe in terms of road deviations but i suspect every single bridge junction on i through ct would be considered so they re hard to take at mph that s not the only interstate i ve seen with such deviations but it s one i drive frequently yes but as a age of the total freeway in the us all you have to do in this case is mark the hazard advising people to slow to or so texas is pretty much an edge case you can t assume that everywhere has roads in such good condition such flat terrain and such texas freeways are varied sometimes a good surface mostly flat but i in ca is comparable and hilly wide open spaces it just ain t so given the absence of other traffic and car built for e g most us freeways are just fine the problem is other road users and cops jim frost jimf centerline com craig
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences in article oprsfnx gsusgi gsu edu oprsfnx gsusgi gsu edu stephen f nicholas writes stuff about dodge shadow deleted as an ex fleet mgr of cars they were amoung the most trouble free of all models i bought one for my wife what do you mean by all models all models of cars all chrysler models all models that the fleet manager had bought because there is no way in hell that the shadow is the most reliable car of all models sold not even chrysler s dept of lies damned lies and statistics would claim that craig
rec.autos	re ultimate awd vehicles in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the price of parts is a different story though you can say that again how does for a new thermostat sound teddy
rec.autos	big block as the subject says it has k and my brother in law wants please don t reply to me as i am posting this for him here s his numbers pm pm daytime dave schrader schrader eai iastate edu
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences in article oprsfnx gsusgi gsu edu oprsfnx gsusgi gsu edu stephen f nicholas writes daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu darren r daubenspeck writes they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will be replaced next year with all new models junk they ve made the c d lists for years due to their excellent handling and acceleration they have been around since about oh or so they re not the newest on the lot and mileage is about five to eight mpg under the class leader you can get into a l v hp shadow for k the i turbo a bit more and a droptop for k as an ex fleet mgr of cars they were amoung the most trouble free of all models i bought one for my wife nnnnnnnng thank you for playing i cannot agree with this i believed this and to put it nicely it was a piece of junk i loved this car i babied it i pampered it and after years it just couldn t stay together i would say that not everyone will have the problems that i had but know this it s not just the car it is the ability to get the car fixed which will not happen at any chrysler dodge take your pick dealer i don t care if there are going to reform their dealers service with the intro of the lh cars i will believe it when i see it case and point the local dodge dealer you drive up just looking you don t even get out of your door when about yes salesman all eye you like their next meal and literally pounce on you and try to get you to make a deal on everything your eye wanders towards service is about times worse than that i had an alignment problem but they tried to tell me that the k frame was bent and about dollars of work parts to fix it let me tell you the problems i had and i took care of this car i put alot of miles on it in the first couple years but took it to every checkup it needed and many that shouldn t have been dodge shadow es these were replaced within the years that i owned the car engine alternators rear suspension torsion bar water pumps thermostats hall effect sensor main computer batteries these were rebuilt repaired radiator automatic transmission power steering those are just the things i can remember off the top of my head for about a year before i sold the car i said to myself it s a good car i just can t find anybody competent enough the fix it in the end before i traded it in for a saturn the power steering started acting up again i just stopped putting money into it i must have put at least worth of repairs over it s lifetime i am sorry but lee iacocca can bite me bullshit whoever backs em best is just afraid the stupid things are going to fall apart and no one will buy them without assurance why the hell do you think that lh has been nicknamed last hope you can do better and i know people will disagree with me here but japanese like honda or toyota or the only american car company that i feel is a quality product saturn i will not touch another chrysler product again no way i don t care how good the lh cars look good and i will admit they look promising but not with the support that you get gm isn t much better thank god they don t control saturn like they do their divisions or it would be just another marketing ploy don t get me wrong i will be watching my car which i do like like a hawk for the next years i am much more hesitant to say it or any car is really good until it has proved itself to me but since someone else pointed out c d as a source i will note because i used to read these magazines that car and driver has never had a good thing to say about most chrysler products shadow for one always were they moaning about the reguritated k car and engine whereas motor trend always thought they were great cars no car magazine is really objective and although there are alot of people who don t like consumers reports i will use them to reinforce my argument i already know about the big stink with the saturn crash tests time will tell how good a car they are the shadow sundance rate much worse than average in fact none of the chrysler s rate a better than average i think the best one is just average excluding the diamond star mitsubishi stuff and the lh s you can find bad stuff about the shadow try as i might when i researched the saturn i could not find anything bad about it there is a great deal of information about this company just because it is a new american company and it has created quite a stir in the automotive community for good reason much more than the introduction of any new model lines of any established company i read an article which had a sub column an i think this imprinted on me more than anything else some big wig in toyota said and i quote we are watching them very closely come on everybody grow up the foreign cars especially the japanese have been kicking our butts for good reason the american car companies could not make a good product or support the customer the way they want these days to set in their ways which is one of the reasons saturn was created they are still struggling because they haven t learned yet they have the ability the workers are not inferior the technology is not out of date but their attitude is and they are just finding this out it s called competition gentleman women if you don t satisfy the demand of the consumer well your out asbestos suit on gaia
rec.autos	buick heater controls i have a buick skylark with k on it i bought it in california and if it ll let me i d like to keep it for another year the only problem is these indiana winters my heater controls don t work the car has vacuum operated control switches for the vents right now it is stuck in the vent mode it will blow warm air but i can t switch the air flow to either the floor i can live without this or the defrost i can t live without this i probably could just jam the air deflector to the defrost position but this blows a lot of air in my face and is well kind of like putting a vacuum cleaner in reverse i have taken parts of the dash off and looked at the vacuum system and i think the problem or part of it is with the two diaphragms which control up down and outside inside air flow the diaphragm which controls outside vent in side no vent air is cracked most of the way around and the other one is probably damaged too considering the advanced age of the car two questions is there anything i should be aware of about this other than the fact that i should move from indiana in the event that replacement diaphragms aren t available is there a way to fix this thanks for any advice info selah dan lovall physics purdue edu
rec.autos	re impala ss going into does that mean that they re gonna bring back the biscayne and bel air or how about the george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org george
rec.autos	re need info on porsche s in article midway uchicago edu buzy quads uchicago edu len buzyna writes hi there i ve recently been toying with the idea of purchasing an old the going rate seems to be about for cars with anywhere from k mi my question is this what should i expect at this price should i expect to have extensive body work done what about engine transmission should i likewise expect to have both virtually replaced along those lines does anyone have the names addresses of any mail order parts suppliers for everything from engine to body parts i m completely new to the area of restoring cars and as i don t actually do any work with cars most of the work would have to be professionally done what sould i expect the cost of upgrading a to a rust free mechanically sound automobile thanks in advance andre true enthusiasts will be able to give you a better answer then this but i ll dump my impressions i ve wanted to own a for about years now came close once but i ended up buying a fiero instead biggest mistake of my life anyway for you should be able to get a nice car but your also set in the price range to get taken by a nice looker that is a pile of shit the most common total failure for the car would be frame rust between the engine and passenger compartment also look for chassis welded together here oh yeah the price range you are talking about must be the banger a if you could find one would be mucho more bucks parts for the engine are pretty easy to come by for an old car and you can even locate crude in the jc whitney catalog if you have too the machine itself is pretty simple they use the spare tire for windshild washer instead of a pump fer chris sake so getting it fixed by a good bug porsche mechanic would be easy since it is mid engine you may spend more on labor for any mechanical work jeff miller network systems corporation internetwork group boone avenue north jmiller network com minneapolis mn
rec.autos	re militech jchen wind bellcore com jason chen writes i saw an interesting product in ny auto show and would like to hear your comments militech tm is yet another oil additive but the demonstration of this product really impressive if it didn t cheat well i heard that militech stuff works pretty good too one of my friends who races in scca sanctioned events and all that stuff got the militech stuff early as a trial thing and he put it in his crx he says it worked great but i didn t ask him for any details erich erich lim yob sccsi com ye olde bailey bbs v bis v bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard
rec.autos	honda new car info from kay honda s helpful hints about your honda infromation sheet given to new owners of honda vehicles a burning smell may be evident from your new car shortly after taking delivery i now own a fire extinguisher on prelude s mels at temperatures above degrees push the accelerator pedal to the floor one time release slowly and with your foot off the accelerator crank the engine until it starts moe than seconds my note of cranking may be required in temperatures below degrees the accelerator will have to be depressed times door panels and interior trim can be damaged if they are not buckled by getting caught when closing doors when shifting accord automatic transmissions from park neutral or reverse into drive the transmission shifts into rd gear in case of towing start the engine shift into drive from park then from drive to neutral turn off engine what if you are getting towed b c engine won t run if engine does not run do not use this procedure phew i was worried insert smilies where appropriate though this is real jonathan jdrout scott skidmore edu skidmore college saratoga ny civic si aftermarket fogs if you own one you understand
rec.autos	re for hail damage a record in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article apr pencom com stecz pencom com writes in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes my integra was hit hard in the hailstorm in austin tx the insurance company cut me a check for deductible last week is this a record anybody else had settlements from the same hailstorm yet craig rumor has it that a guy at dell computer had his miata totalled so that would be about k i guess it either had the top down or the hail ripped through the top as you could not do k worth of hail damage to a miata body craig john steczkowski stecz pencom com the constitution grants you the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness it does not attempt to guarantee that everyone will be happy there was a volvo owner that had dollars worth of improvements to the looks of the car by hail
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c srib ah constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes anything if he hadn t emptied his gun into the asshole texas it s whole other country that reminds me of one of texas s ads you hear a guy speaking in french like it s a letter home then the french moves to the background and a french accented voice come to the foreground talking about how he went walking on the beach and it felt so much like home that he decided to take his shoes off and the rest of his clothes it ended with please send bail on an rec autos note does anyone carry a gun on them or keep one in their car which is bad idea isn t it if you work in a bad part of town or regularly go through one is this a loaded question i normally have an unloaded colt delta in my glove box with a loaded magazine handy which is perfectly legal in oklahoma for those times that i m travelling inter state i keep an unloaded s w magnum revolver in the glove box with a speed loader in my pocket which is legal everywhere under federal law illinois state police be hanged as i ve said before this is stricly for defense my insurance will pay to replace my car but i only have one life james carrying a pistol loaded or unloaded in the glove compartment is considered carrying a concealed weapon in colorado and is illegal without a concealed weapons permit unless the law has been changed recently carrying a weapon openly is legal in colorado but concealing it is illegal i read a newspaper account last year where police stopped a car on a traffic infraction and observed a magnum revolver sitting on the seat the driver could not be cited for possessing or carrying the weapon because it was not concealed the article stated that if the gun had been discovered in the glove box it would have been considered a crime ken franklin they say there s a heaven for people who wait ama and some say it s better but i say it ain t gwrra i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun y know only the good die young
rec.autos	sunroof leaks i m all wet my sunroof leaks i ve always thought those things were a royal pain can anyone provide any insight i know the seal isn t great maybe i could weld the stupid thing shut hk
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots i prefer a manual to an automatic as it should be i believe that automatics should only be manufactured for people with physical disabilities who otherwise would not be able to drive automatic transmissions allow drivers to be lazy more time is available to fiddle with the radio or to look at the scenery instead of concentrating on the road the manual transmission keeps the drive always doing something granted it isn t a large movement plus driving should be fun driving a manual is fun driving an automatic is a chore in the case of shift speed automatics can be made to shift far faster that any human could move a stick if i was racing i d want and automatic for normal driving go with the manual
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences in article qofeainnn h shelley u washington edu gaia carson u washington edu i we are gaia writes just stopped putting money into it i must have put at least worth of repairs over it s lifetime i am sorry but lee iacocca can bite me bullshit whoever backs em best is just afraid the stupid things area the part about spending on repairs reminds me of an article i read in a magazine comparing the year ownership costs of a toyota camry and a ford taurus or something like that the result which they announced with great flourish was that it cost the same at the end of the period that was their argument to prove that you don t go wrong buying the ford taurus over the camry now if i remember correctly the camry costs about or so more in initial costs essentially it means that you spend about extra on repairs on the taurus that is ridiculous every time your car needs repairs it is extra hassles loss of time and a dozen other things i would much rather spend more in initial costs than spend more in repair costs cut here for signature balaji ramanathan institute of transportation studies i don t believe in luck university of california irvine i rely on it
rec.autos	my two cars chevy nova cl and dodge se as you can see i have two cars both worth about each the problem is that maintenance costs on these two cars is running about per year and insurance per year what am i doing wrong within the last two months the follows costs have occured dodge se dodge s attempt at the american german car replace head gasket new radiator chevy nova cl chevy s attempt at a japan import tune up oil change valve gasket middle exhaust pipe misc note also that the chevy nova cl has only horsepwer does anyone out there have a chevy nova with enough power to get up even a small hill without knocking is there something wrong with my car i even use octane gas i have consider going to octane if i can find it anyway what are the best maintenance items to do it yourself and what equipment is needed thanks doug car doug from wayne nj
rec.autos	re taurus sable rotor recall antonio l balsamo save the wails balsamo stargl enet dec com wrote from opdbs vm cc latech edu subject taurus sable rotor recall my taurus gl with only k on the clock also has rotor warp apparently they haven t fixed the problem yet but try convincing the ford service person to fix it for free right tony gads i have heard so many horror stories with taurus and sable cars i thought these were premium american automobiles the way they sell you d think so is ford really no better than in the late s when it was turning out tin cans like the granada and the fairmount which would you get a taurus or a camry or accord john zorro picasso ocis temple edu zorro astro ocis temple edu
rec.autos	re i m getting a car i need opinions in article apr ns cc lehigh edu ip ns cc lehigh edu d anny phornprapha writes i have as my budget i m looking for a sports or gt car what do you think would be the best buy i m looking for specific models thanks danny i d say an rx would be right up there you could easily deal down to it has some of the most impressive performance figures around and automotive magazines eat it up one car to seriously consider in that price range rob fusi rwf lehigh edu
rec.autos	re i m getting a car i need opinions in a previous article ip ns cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha says i have as my budget i m looking for a sports or gt car what do you think would be the best buy i m looking for specific models thanks danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this ip lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work for an all out sports car i d go for the rx without the sports suspension which is too stiff for a little more practicality and more comfort the nissan zx turbo is a good buy and for a good dose of luxury the lexus sc is perfect with a manual transmission of course however the toyota supra is coming out soon and if you like it s looks the performance is supposed to be great almost race car like i don t particulary like the mitsubishi gt s or the dodge stealths as they are too heavy and aren t very nimble handlers for a sports car a motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography ca santa barbara and a foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind is the forerunner of all states
rec.autos	there s rust on my beamer help actually i wasn t too surprised since i bought it with the rust any of you got some ideas of getting rid of this cheaply key word it has eaten all the way through on the door panels can i use bondo also is there a good paint that will bond to aluminum rims the paint thati was on my rims has peeled off actually there s some rust looking stuff on the rims themselves but it comes off pretty easily one more thing have any of you done self painting to a car how do you start what do i need to do this please help me jesse
rec.autos	re chryslers compact lh sedans cka uxa cso uiuc edu carolinafan uiuc writes shoppa almach caltech edu tim shoppa writes i thought that the v was originally designed for a truck not necessarily a pickup and then just sort of dropped into the viper s frame because it fit and was available a friend of mine and i saw and heard a viper and my friend s first response was that it sounded like a truck it sounded fine to me but then again i don t like the whiny noise that most modern sports car engines make btw the viper we saw was moving at about mph just like all of the other cars on the freeway heading east out of la on a friday afternoon looked really nice though actually i was under the impression that the v in the viper was not the v that dodge was developing for its new kenworths i have always thought it was the exhaust system and not the engine that produced the noise of a car well yes the exhaust is where the majority of the noise comes out but the basics tone firing cadence etc are determined by the engine configuration in the case of the viper yes we are discussing a huge multicylinder deg engine which will sound somewhat like a truck and my understanding btw is that that v engine was designed originally with the intention of being ad aptible for either the trucks or the viper and from what i ve heard no first hand knowledge it s doing a pretty good job at both and the best exhaust sound in the world is now and will always be a degree dohc colombo designed v period michael t chaffee mchaffee ux cso uiuc edu email mchaffee sumter cso uiuc edu nextmail sig under construction excuse
rec.autos	advice on used car hi i was looking for some helpful advice i m a university student with about to spend and i m looking for a used car does anyone have any useful advice they could offer to a first time buyer i m not looking for anything sporty just something functional and reliable less maintenance costs anybody have any ideas on what models might suit me thanks sanjai
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences in article bd bdc news service uci edu raman translab its uci edu balaji v ramanathan writes the part about spending on repairs reminds me of an article i read in a magazine comparing the year ownership costs of a toyota camry and a ford taurus or something like that the result which they announced with great flourish was that it cost the same at the end of the period that was their argument to prove that you don t go wrong buying the ford taurus over the camry now if i remember correctly the camry costs about or so more in initial costs essentially it means that you spend about extra on repairs on the taurus that is ridiculous every time your car needs repairs it is extra hassles loss of time and a dozen other things i would much rather spend more in initial costs than spend more in repair costs did you account for depreciation i seriously doubt that a taurus would rack up an extra in repair costs over years teddy
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible in a previous article nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p says help my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car we live in south fla so we are definitely in the right are for one my wife has mentioned the miata but i think it is too small i would like to wait for the new mustangs dec i think anyone have any opinions on any all convertibles in a reasonable price range thanx geo metro lsi drew
rec.autos	re too fast in a previous article callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison says in article qn ev g usenet ins cwru edu aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes in a previous article wrat unisql uucp wharfie says in article qkon re armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes larger engine that s what the sho is a slightly modified family sedan with a powerful engine they didn t even bother improving the brakes that shows how much you know about anything the brakes on the sho are very different inch or i forget discs all around vented in front the normal taurus setup is smaller discs front drums rear one i saw had vented rears too it was on a lot of course the sales man was a fool titanium wheels yeah right then later told me they were magnesium more believable but still crap since al is so m uch cheaper and just as good i tend to agree tho that this still doesn t take the sho up to standard for running on a regular basis the brakes should be bigger like or so take a look at the ones on the corrados where they have braking regulations well let s see my t bird sc has a computer controlled adjustable suspension wheel abs disks vented front rear point belts sturdy passenger compartment aerodynamics good enough for nascar without too much change hp ft lb supercharged l v wheel independent suspension plus limited slip differential with a top speed in excess of mph and rides on v rated tires i have yet to find r s in any other speed rating is that up to standard if not why not james james i really hate to do this but try reading the damn posts never was a t bird mentioned the discussion was about sho s and stangs not being up to spec i do not know about t birds i only know that the specs quoted for the sho by previous poster sounded a little anemic for me to say that it was up to snuff this does not in any way disencourage me from wishing to own one nor does it make it a bad car it merely means that i think ford could have added that extra bit of safety and tossed in larger brakes as the wheels are plenty large enough for them to fit if memory serves right which it may very well not and the motor plenty powerful enough to need it c ya drew
rec.autos	re warning please read matmcinn nuscc nus sg matthew macintyre at the national university of senegal writes callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes i m not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons but i would ask you if you would have thought seriously about shooting a kid for setting off your alarm i can think of worse things in the world glad you got out of there before they did anything to give you a reason to fire your gun i think people have a right to kill to defend their property why not be honest do you really care more about scum than about your car i can t tell if matt is being sarcastic here or not but to be honest many automobiles are worth far more to their owners in value and investment than the people that would take them i don t have figures on average property tax in the u s or how much of it is allocated for housing projects inferior public schools jails or the like but i have a feeling that the amount the government steals from an honest productive citizen to breed this trash is significantly less than the value of many automobiles and for those who will argue that the animals out there stealing cars and everything else not to mention committing completely senseless acts of violence such as rape cannot be valued in terms of money because they are human beings i submit that they are not human beings jim callison i think is on the right track and chintan amin remarked earlier that we cannot blame environment for the actions of a single criminal i couldn t agree more one could trace any crime back to the environment upbringing of the criminal should we let all of them out from pickpockets to rapists to inside traders because what they did wasn t their fault where does one draw the line michael t chaffee mchaffee ux cso uiuc edu email mchaffee sumter cso uiuc edu nextmail sig under construction excuse
rec.autos	re viper rmt r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen writes last night i had a dream that my dad bought a viper i took it out for a test drive without his knowledge and had to push it all the way home just to avoid a ticket wierd dream i wonder what it means vell let s see vas you muzzah in der passenger seat or vas you muzzah in der leefing room vit you fazah m feeling a tad bit freudian doubtless inspired by the magnificent phallic ness some word of the viper
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr nuscc nus sg matmcinn nuscc nus sg matthew macintyre at the national university of senegal writes callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes i m not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons but i would ask you if you would have thought seriously about shooting a kid for setting off your alarm i can think of worse things in the world glad you got out of there before they did anything to give you a reason to fire your gun i think people have a right to kill to defend their property why not be honest do you really care more about scum than about your car yo watch the attributions i didn t say that again this isn t an appropriate forum for discussions on whether you should shoot someone for property damage vandalism theft but every responsible gun owner realizes that there are limits and the punishment must fit the crime i mean think about it is a really harmless prank worth killing over as i said the situation described punks setting off alarms and taunting people to come out could turn very ugly very quickly and it is worth being prepared when your life is potentially on the line james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes in article c liw cax news rich bnr ca peon w o email eric youngblood writes in article qn lo c s vela acs oakland edu mje pookie pass wayne edu michael j edelman writes the big disadvantage of automatics is the hp they consume that never gets to the wheels in this respect they are at a disadvantage to a manual only when the torque converter is not locked up there are autos out there with converter lock up in nd rd and th gears w r t performance converter lockup is purely irrelevant the lockup only occurs at light throttle settings and serves only to improve mpg mind you a converter clutch does a lovely job of improving mpg but the additional mechanical advantage of the converter gives you more acceleration vs locked converter clutch than its inherent losses take away michael t chaffee mchaffee ux cso uiuc edu email mchaffee sumter cso uiuc edu nextmail sig under construction excuse
rec.autos	re the kuebelwagen thwang mentor cc purdue edu tommy hwang writes sorry for the mis spelling but i forgot how to spell it after my series of exams and no on hand reference here is it still possible to get those cute wwii vw jeep wanna be s a replica would be great i think tkh according to the complete guide to specialty cars th edition from crown publishing it s the vw kubelwagen w dots over the u the company is wolfkam p o box vika oslo norway voice line fax line an excerpt from the blurb this fine kubel clone from wolfkam is a very close copy of the original and offers the same all weather and cross country capabilities as its wwii forebears the robust fiberglass body kit is very complete and includes all the hardware you will need except for your own vw donor car the phone number is the entire at t dialing sequence call and ask for karl torum or send cash or international money order for a complete literature package george p s i d be happy to share what info i have on other kit cars and kit car manufacturers p p s i m looking for a used or partially completed porsche speedster convertible d replica from intermeccanica i d appreciate any leads or advice stories from any owners out there
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu darren r daubenspeck writes they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will be replaced next year with all new models junk they ve made the c d lists for years due to their excellent handling and acceleration they have been around since about oh or so they re not the newest on the lot and mileage is about five to eight mpg under the class leader you can get into a l v hp shadow for k the i turbo a bit more and a droptop for k how can car be any good that has s n a c u d n e written on the back with crooked letters as if a year old had written it hehhehehehahaha about as silly as crysler s attemps to make the label on the back of some of their other cars appear like they are mercedes sorry i couldn t resist barryb
rec.autos	re automotive crash test performance and maintenance stats i wrote is there a resource available to the consumer comparing all of the makes and models of automobiles trucks vans etc for survivability in a crash of different severities also i ve found very little objective data comparing different vehicles for handling pick up braking expected maintenance etc i recall years ago consumer reports annual buyer s guide was much more informative in those aspects than it is now thanks to a reply from someone i looked a little further and found what i was looking for the april cr magazine has most of the above things despite recent articles here the ratings looked pretty good for relative comparison purposes unfortunately the crash test comparisons didn t include half of the cars i m comparing anybody know how honda civic hatchbacks and toyota tercels fare in an accident boyd johnson nosc spectra com johnson san diego california intermittent newsfeed at best and only to selected groups my opinions certainly don t match those of my employer
rec.motorcycles	re lexan polish in article c soe m ns nodak edu wilken plains nodak edu scott wilken writes a couple of years ago i replaced the stock windscreen on my interceptor with a higher one from national cycle the thing happens to be made of lexan can anyone recommend a polish to use on it that is safe for lexan its starting to show a few scratches and id like to polish them out go fast internet wilken plains nodak edu ama take chances uucp uunet plains wilken dod vf f interceptor bitnet wilken plains suggest mcquires plastic polish it will help somewhat but nothing will remove deep scratches without making it worse than it already is mcquires will do something for fine or light stuff also suggest calling your local plastic shop in calif tap plastic is a chain that carries most of what is needed for repair and sometimes replacement of plastic bits telephone in the bay area is i m not sure how amenable they are to shipping i have found that they have several excellent products for cleaning and removing crap from windscreens and face shields also they have one called lift it which works real well in removing sticky stuffs such as adhessives from plastic wihtout scratching same luck jonathan jefferies jeff mri com
rec.motorcycles	faq what is the dod this is a periodic posting intended to answer the frequently asked question what is the dod it is posted the first of each month with an expiration time of over a month thus unless your site s news software is ill mannered this posting should always be available this witdodfaq is crossposted to all four rec motorcycles groups in an attempt to catch most new users and followups are directed to rec motorcycles last changed feb to add a message from the kotl and a bit of halon version this collection was originally assembled by lissa shoun from the original postings with lissa s permission i have usurped the title of kotwitdodfaq any corrections additions bribes etc should be aimed at blgardne javelin sim es com contents how do i get a dod number by blaine gardner dod dod road rider article by bruce tanner dod what is the dod by john sloan dod the dod logo by chuck rogers dod the dod this started it all by the denizen of doom dod the dod anthem by jonathan quist dod why you have to be killed by blaine gardner dod the rec moto photo archive courtesy of bruce tanner dod patches what patches by blaine gardner dod letter from the ama museum by jim rogers director dod the dod rules by consensus other rec moto resources by various keepers dod misc the rec moto reviews archive courtesy of loki jorgenson dod updated stats rides info by ed green dod and others how do i get a dod number if the most frequently asked question in rec motorcycles is what is the dod then the second most frequently asked question must be how do i get a dod number that is as simple as asking the keeper of the list kotl accept no substitue keepers for a number if you re feeling creative and your favorite number hasn t been taken already you can make a request subject to kotl approval warning non numeric non base number requests are likely to earn a flame from the kotl not that you won t get it but you will pay for it oh and just one little tiny suggestion ask the kotl in e mail you ll just be playing the lightning rod for flames if you post to the whole net and you ll look like a clueless newbie too by now you re probably asking so who s the kotl already well as john sloan notes below that s about the only real secret left around here but a few un subtle hints can be divulged first it is not myself nor anyone mentioned by name in this posting maybe though john was the original kotl second in keeping with the true spirit of unix the kotl s first name is only two letters long and can be spelled entirely with hexadecimal characters the kotl shares his name with a line oriented text utility third he has occasionally been seen posting messages bestowing new dod numbers mostly to boneheads with weenie mailers fourth there is reason to suspect the kotl of being a dead head newsflash a message from the kotl once you have surmounted this intellectual pinnacle and electronically groveled to the kotl please keep in mind that the kotl does indeed work for a living and occasionally must pacify its boss by getting something done your request may languish in mailer queue for gasp days perhaps even horrors a week or two during such times of economic activity on the part of the kotl s employers sending yet another copy of your request will not speed processing of the queue it just makes it longer verification of this phenominon is left as an excersize for the reader if you suspect mailer problems at least annotate subsequent requests with an indication that a former request was submitted lest you be assigned multiple numbers what you think the kotl memorizes the list one more thing the kotl says that its telepathic powers aren t what they used to be so provide some information for the list will ya the typical dod list entry contains number name state country e mail address for example ed green ca ed green east sun com ps while john mentions below that net access and a bike are the only requirements for dod membership that s not strictly true these days as there are a number of denizens who lack one or both blaine dances with bikers gardner blgardne javelin sim es com denizens of doom by bruce tanner dod road rider august reprinted with bruce s permission there is a group of motorcyclists that gets together and does all the normal things that a bunch of bikers do they discuss motorcycles and motorcycling beverages cleaning fluids baklavah balaclava caltrops helmets anti fog shields spine protectors aerodynamics three angle valve seats bird hits deer whistles good restaurants racing philosophy traffic laws tickets corrosion control personalities puns double entendres culture absence of culture first rides and friendship they argue with each other and plan rides together the difference between this group and your local motorcycle club is that although they get together just about everyday most have never seen each other face to face the members of this group live all over the known world and communicate with each other electronically via computer the computers range from laptops to multi million dollar computer centers the people range from college and university students to high tech industry professionals to public access electronic bulletin board users currently rec motorcycles pronounced wreck dot motorcycles it s the file name for the group s primary on line meeting place carries about articles per month it is read by an estimated people most of the frequent posters belong to a motorcycle club the denizens of doom usually referred to as the dod the dod started when motorcyclist john r nickerson wrote a couple of parodies designed to poke fun at motorcycle stereotypes fellow computer enthusiast bruce robinson posted these articles under the pen name denizen of doom a while later chuck rogers signed off as dod nr keeper of the flame bruce was then designated dod nr retroactively and of course nickerson the originator of the parodies was given dod nr the idea of a motorcycle club with no organization no meetings and no rules appealed to many so john sloan dod nr became keeper of the list issuing dod numbers to anyone who wanted one to date there have been almost memberships issued to people all over the united states and canada as well as australia new zealand the united kingdom france germany norway and finland keeper of the list sloan eventually designed a club patch the initial run of patches sold out immediately the profits from this went to the american motorcycle heritage foundation another amhf fund raiser selling denizens of doom pins to members was started by arnie skurow a few months later again the project was successful and the profits were donated to the foundation so far the denizens have contributed over to the ama museum a plaque in the name of the denizens of doom now hangs in the motorcycle heritage museum as often as possible the dod ers crawl out from behind their crts and go riding together it turns out that the two largest concentrations of dod ers are centered near denver boulder colorado and in california s silicon valley consequently two major events are the annual assault on rollins pass in colorado and the northern versus southern california joust the ride and feed is a bike trip over rollins pass followed by a big barbecue dinner the concept for the joust is to have riders from northern california ride south riders from southern california to ride north meeting at a predesignated site somewhere in the middle an additional plan for is to hold an official denizens of doom homecoming in conjunction with the ama heritage homecoming in columbus ohio in july though it s a safe bet the the denizens of doom and their collective communications hub rec motorcycles will not replace the more traditional motorcycle organizations for those who prowl the electronic pathways in search of two wheeled camaraderie it s a great way for kindred spirits to get together long may they flame live to flame flame to live centerbar this official motto of the denizens of doom refers to the ease with which you can gratuitously insult someone electronically when you would not do anything like that face to face these insults are known as flames issuing them is called flaming flames often start when a member disagrees with something another member has posted over the network a typical sophisticated intelligent form of calm reasoned rebuttal would be something like what an incredibly stupid statement you spandex clad poseur this will guarantee that five other people will reply in defense of the original poster describing just what they think of you your riding ability and your cat the denizens of doom the saga unfolds by john sloan dod periodically the question what is dod is raised this is one of those questions in the same class as why is the sky blue if there is a god why is there so much suffering in the world and why do women inevitably tell you that you re such a nice guy just before they dump you the kinds of questions steeped in mysticism tradition and philosophy questions that have inspired research and discussion by philosophers in locker rooms motorcycle service bays and in the halls of academe for generations a long long time ago in computer time where anything over a few minutes is an eternity and the halting problem really is a problem on a computer far far away on the net topologically speaking two machines in the same room in atlanta might route mail to one another via a system in chicago a chap who wished to remain anonymous but who was eventually assigned the dod membership wrote a satire of the various personalities and flame wars of rec motorcycles and signed it the denizen of doom not wishing to identify himself he asked that stalwart individual who would in the fullness of time become dod to post it for him dod not really giving a whit about what other people thought and generally being a right thinking individual did so flaming and other amusements followed he who would become the holder of dod membership thought this was the funniest thing he d seen in a while being the sort that is pretty easily amused so he claimed membership in the denizens of doom motorcycle club and started signing his postings with his membership number perhaps readers of rec motorcycles were struck with the vision of a motorcycle club with no dues no rules no restrictions as to brand or make or model or national origin of motorcycle a club organized electronically it may well be that readers were yearning to become a part of something that would provide them with a greater identity a gestalt personality something in which the whole was greater than the sum of its parts it could also be that we re all computer nerds who wear black socks and sneakers and pocket protectors who just happen to also love taking risks on machines with awesome power to weight ratios social outcasts who saw a clique that would finally be open minded enough to accept us as members in a clear case of self fulfilling prophesy the denizens of doom motorcycle club was born a club in which the majority of members have never met one another face to face and perhaps like it that way yet feel that they know one another pretty well or well enough given some of the electronic personalities in the newsgroup a club organized and run in the loosest sense of the word by volunteers through the network via electronic news and mail with a membership mailing list often used to organize group rides amongst members who live in the same region a motto a logo a series of photo albums circulating around the country organized by dod club patches organized by and even an mtv style music video produced by and distributed on vhs by where will it end who knows will the dod start sanctioning races placing limits on the memory and clock rate of the on board engine management computers will the dod organize poker runs where each participant collects a hand of hardware and software reference cards will the dod have a rally in which the attendees demand a terminal room and at least a sized unix system only time will tell the dod has no dues no rules and no requirements other than net access and a love for motorcycles to become a member one need only ask although we will admit that who you must ask is one of the few really good club secrets new members will receive via email a membership number and the latest copy of the membership list which includes name state and email address the denizens of doom motorcycle club will live forever or at least until next year when we may decided to change the name live to flame flame to live the dod daemon as seen on the patches pins etc by chuck rogers car druhi att com dod dod x x x x x x l f i l v a e m e t o t o f l l a vvvvv i m v e e x x x x x rec motorcycles x usenet the dod by the denizen of doom dod welcome one and all to the flamingest most wonderfullest newsgroup of all time wreck mudder disciples or is it reak mudder disciples the names have been changes to protect the guilty riders and innocent the bikes alike if you think you recognize a contorted version of your name you don t it s just your guilt complex working against you read em and weep we tune in on a conversation between some of our heros terrible barbarian is extolling the virtues of his hopalonga puff a cane to reverend muck mudgers and stompin fueling injection terrible this hopalonga is the greatest beats bmws dead muck i don t mean to preach terrible but lighten up on the bmw crowd eh i mean like i like riding my yuka yuka fudgeo jammer but what the heck stompin no way the bmw is it complete that s all man terrible nahhhh you re sounding like heritick ratatnack hey at least he is selling his bmw and uses a hopalonga intercorruptor not as good as a puff a cane should have been called a woosh a stream stompin you mean wee stream terrible waddya going to do call in reinforcements stompin yehh man here comes arlow scarecrow and high tech let s see what they say eh muck now men let s try to be civil about this high tech hi i m a and the bmw is the greatest arlow other than my b t i love my bmw terrible b t arlow burley thumpison the greatest all american ride you can own muck ahhh look you re making terrible gag terrible what does bmw stand for anyway muck arlow high beats me wilhelm terrible actually my name is terrible hmmm i don t know either muck say here comes chunky bear chunky hey hey hey smarter than your average bear terrible hey didn t you drop your bmw chunky all right eh a little booboo but i left him behind i mean even villy ogle flamed me for that muck it s okay we all makes mistakes out of the blue the west coasters arrive led by tread orange with dill snorkssy heritick ratatnack buck garnish snob rasseller and the perenial favorite hooter boobin brush heritick heya terrible how s yer front to back bias terrible not bad sold yer bmw heritick nahhh hooter hoot hoot buck nice tree hooter how d ya get up there hooter carbujectors from hell muck what s a carbujector hooter well it ain t made of alumican made by tilloslert muck ahh come on down we aren t going to flame ya honest dill well where do we race snob you know chunky we know about about your drop and well don t ride muck no no quiet tread bmw s are the greatest in my supreme level headed opinion they even have luggage made by sourkraut high my too terrible heritick dill buck nahhhhh stompin tread high chunky snob yesss yessssss before this issue could be resolved the hopalonga crew called up more cohorts from the local area including polyanna stirrup and the infamous booster robiksen on his cavortin polyanna well men the real bikers use stirrups on their bikes like i use on my hopalonga evening bird special helpful for getting it up on the ole ventral stand terrible hopalonga s are great like polyanna says and yuka yuka s and sumarikis and kersnapis are good too booster i hate cavortin all we know we know booster i love cavortin all we know we know muck well what about mucho guzlers and lepurras snob tread nawwwwww muck what about a tridump terrible isn t that a chewing gum muck auggggg waddda about a pluck a kity heritick heyya muck you tryin to call up the demon rider himself muck no no there is more to mudder disciples than arguing about make two more riders zoom in in the form of pill turret and phalanx lifter pill out with dorsal stands and ventral stands forever phalanx hey i don t know about that and now even more west coasters pour in road o noblin hopalonga s are the greatest maulled beerstein may you sit on a bikejector suddenly more people arrived from the great dark nurth kite lanolin hey bmw s are great men robo nickie i prefer motorcycle to robot transformers personally more riders from the west coast come into the discussion aviator sourgas get a burley thumpison with a belted rigged frame guess gasket go with a bmw or burley thumpison with a roar and a screech the latest mudder disciple thundered in it was none other that clean bikata on her hopalonga cabammerxorn clean like look hopalonga are it but only cabammerxorns muck why clean well like it s gotta be a banger or nothin muck but i only have a banger clean no good chunky sob some of us only have bangers clean inferior stompin hey look here s proof bmw s are better the bimmer boys burst into song singing beemer babe beemer babe give me a thrill road terrible polyanna maulled dill etc wadddoes bmw stand for heritick stompin snob chunky tread kite high arlow beat s me wilhem road terrible polyanna maulled dill etc oh don t you mean bmw and so the ensuing argument goes until the skies clouded over and the thunder roared and the greatest mudder disciple g m d of them all boomed out g m d enough of your bickering you are doomed to riding bigot suction powered mini trikes for your childish actions all no no no puhlease does this mean that all of the wreck mudder disciples will be riding mini trikes are our arguing heros doomed tune in next week for the next gut wretching episode of the yearning and riderless with its ever increasing cast of characters where all technical problems will be flamed over until well done next week s episode will answer the question of to helmet or not to helmet will be aired this is heady material and viewer discretion is advised script for the denizens of doom anthem video by jonathan e quist dod scene a sterile engineering office a lone figure whom we ll call chuck stands by a printer output bin wearing a white cdc lab coat with mechanical pencils in a pocket protector editor s note for some reason a great deal of amusement was had at the first annual dod uni coastal ironhorse ride joust by denizens referring to each other as chuck i guess you had to be there i wasn t chuck i didn t want to be a software systems analyst cow towing to the whims of a machine and saying yessir nosir may i have another sir my mother made me do it i wanted to live a man s life music slowly builds in background riding nortons and triumphs through the highest mountain passes and the deepest valleys living the life of a motorcyclist doing donuts and evading the police terrorizing old ladies and raping small children eating small dogs for tea and large dogs for dinner in short i want to be a denizen chuck rips off his lab coat revealing black leather jacket with fringe boots and cap scene simultaneously changes to the top of an obviously assaulted rollins pass a small throng of hell s angels sit on their harleys in the near background gunning their engines showering lookers on with nails as they turn donuts and leaking oil on the tarmac chuck is standing in front of a heavily chromed fat boy chuck sings to the tune of the lumberjack song i m a denizen and i m okay i flame all night and i ride all day hell s angels echo chorus surprisingly heavy on tenors he s a denizen and he s okay he flames all night and he rides all day i ride my bike i eat my lunch i go to the lavat ry on wednesdays i ride skyline running children down with glee chorus he rides his bike he eats his lunch he goes to the lavat ry on wednesdays he rides skyline running children down with glee chorus refrain cause he s a denizen i ride real fast my name is chuck it somehow seems to fit i over rate the worst bad f ck but like a real good sh t oh i m a denizen and i m okay i flame all night and i ride all day chorus refrain oh he s a denizen i wear high heels and bright pink shorts full leathers and a bra i wish i rode a harley just like my dear mama chorus refrain why you have to be killed well the first thing you have to understand just in case you managed to read this far and still not figure it out is that the dod started as a joke and in the words of one denizen it intends to remain one sometime in the far distant past a hapless newbie asked what does dod stand for it s not the department of defense is it naturally a denizen who had watched the movie top gun a few times too many rose to the occasion and replied that s classified we could tell you but then we d have to kill you and the rest is history a variation on the security theme is to supply disinformation about what dod stands for notable contributions and contributers where known include daughters of democracy dod doers of donuts dancers of despair dod debasers of daughters dickweeds of denver driveway of death debauchers of donuts dumpers of dirtbikes note that this is not a comprehensive list as variations appear to be limited only by the contents of one s imagination or dictionary file the rec moto photo archive first a bit of history this all started with ilana stern and chuck rogers organizing a rec motorcycles photo album many copies were made and several sets were sent on tours around the world only to vanish in unknown locations then bruce tanner decided that it would be appropriate for an electronic medium to have an electronic photo album bruce has not only provided the disk space and ftp e mail access but he has taken the time to scan most of the photos that are available from the archive not only can you see what all these folks look like you can also gawk at their motorcycles a few non photo files are available from the server too they include the dod membership list the dod yellow pages the general rec motorcycles faq and this faq posting here are a couple of excerpts from from messages bruce posted about how to use the archive via ftp cerritos edu via e mail the address is server cerritos edu the commands are given in the body of the message the current commands are dir and send given one per line the arguments to the commands are vms style file specifications for rec moto photo the file spec is dod file for example you can send dir dod send dod bruce tanner gif send dod dodframe ps and you ll get back mail messages a directory listing uuencoded parts of bruce tanner gif and the dodframe ps file in ascii oh wildcards are allowed but a maximum of mail messages rounded up to the next whole file are send a send dod gif would send files of k each not a good idea bruce tanner x tanner cerritos edu cerritos college norwalk ca cerritos tanner a couple of comments bruce has put quite a bit of effort into this so why not drop him a note if you find the rec moto photo archive useful second since bruce has provided the server as a favor it would be kind of you to access it after normal working hours california time patches what patches you may have heard mention of various dod trinkets such as patches pins and your reaction was probably i want or that s sick or perhaps that s sick i want well there s some good news and some bad news the good news is that there s been an amazing variety of dod labeled widgets created the bad news is that there isn t anywhere you can buy any of them this isn t because of any exclusivity attempt but simply because there is no dod store that keeps a stock all of the creations have been done by individual denizens out of their own pockets the typical procedure is someone says i m thinking of having a dod frammitz made they ll cost xx xx with xx xx going to the ama museum anyone want one then orders are taken and a batch of frammitzes large enough to cover the pre paid orders is produced and quickly consumed so if you want a dod doodad act quickly the next time somebody decides to do one or produce one yourself if you see a void that needs filling after all this is anarchy in action here s a possibly incomplete list of known dod merchandise and perpetrators patches dod pins dod stickers dod motorcycle license plate frames dod t shirts dod polo shirts dod zippo lighters dod ltf ftl belt buckles dod and patches dod a second batch was done and rapidly consumed by popular demand all profits have been donated to the american motorcyclist association motorcycle heritage museum as of june over dollars has been contributed to the museum fund by the dod if you visit the museum you ll see a large plaque on the founders wall in the name of denizens of doom usenet the world complete with a dod pin here s a letter from the ama to the dod regarding our contributions newsgroups rec motorcycles from arnie skurow arnie magnus acs ohio state edu subject a letter from the motorcycle heritage museum date mon apr gmt i received the following letter from jim rogers director of the museum the other day dear arnie and all members of the denizens of doom congratulations and expressions of gratitude are in order for you and the denizens of doom with your recent donation the total amount donated is now on behalf of the amhf please extend my heartfeld gratitude to all the membership of the denizens the club s new plaque is presently being prepared of course everyone is invited to come to the museum to see the plaque that will be installed in our founders foyer by the way i will personally mount a denizens club pin on the plaque again thank you for all your support which means so much to the foundation the museum and the fulfillment of its goals sincerely jim rogers d o d director p s please post on your computer bulletin board as you all know even though the letter was addressed to me personally it was meant for all of you who purchased dod goodies that made this amount possible arnie the rules regulations bylaws of the denizens of doom motorcycle club from time to time there is some mention discussion or flame about the rules of the dod in order to fan the flames here is the complete text of the rules governing the dod rule there are no rules rule go ride other rec motorcycles information resources there are several general rec motorcycles resources that may or may not have anything to do with the dod most are posted on a regular basis but they can also be obtained from the cerritos ftp e mail server see the info on the photo archive above a general rec motorcycles faq is maintained by dave williams cerritos filenames are faqn txt where n is currently the dod yellow pages a listing of motorcycle industry vendor phone numbers addresses is maintained by bob pakser cerritos filename is yellow pages vnn where n is the rev number the list of the dod membership is maintained by the keeper of the list cerritos filename is dod list this witdod faq surprise surprise is maintained by yours truly cerritos filename is dod faq txt additions corrections etc for any of the above should be aimed at the keepers of the respective texts loki jorgenson loki physics mcgill ca has provided an archive site for motorcycle and accessory reviews here s an excerpt from his periodic announcement the rec motorcycles reviews archives and world famous llama emporium contains a veritable plethora tm of bike and accessories reviews written by rec moto readers based on their own experiences these invaluable gems of opinion highly valued for their potential to reduce noise on the list can be accessed via anonymous ftp email server or by personal request anonymous ftp ftp physics mcgill ca under ftp pub dod email archive server rm reviews ftp physics mcgill ca review submissions questions rm reviews physics mcgill ca note there is a difference in the addresses for review submission and using the email archive server ie an ftp to get started with the email server send an email message with a line containing only send help note if your return address appears like domain subdomain host username in your mail header include a line like or something similar path username host subdomain domain if you are interested in submitting a review of a bike that you already own ed please do there is a template of the format that the reviews are kept in more or less available at the archive site for those who have internet access but are unsure of how anonymous ftp works an example script is available on request reviews of any motorcycle related accessory or widget are welcome too updated stats rec motorcycles rides info some of the info cited above in various places tends to be a moving target rather than trying to catch every occurence i m just sticking the latest info down here estimated rec motorcycles readership k news groups approximate dod membership kotl dod contributions to the american motorcyclist association motorcycle heritage museum over arnie organized rides summer saw more organized rides with the joust in its third year and the ride feed going strong but without the rollins pass trip due to the collapse of a tunnel the east coast denizens got together for the right coast ride rcr with bikers from as far north as nh and as far south as fl meeting in the blueridge mountains of north carolina the pacific northwest crew organized the first great pacific northwest dryside gather gpndg another successful excuse for riding motorcycles and seeing the faces behind the names we all have come to know so well thanks to ed green for the above addition also worth mentioning are the first rec moto dirt ride held in the moab canyonlands area of southern utah riders from states showed up riding everything from monster bmws to itty bitty xrs to almost legal strokes and though it s not an official as if anything could be official with this crowd rec moto event the vintage motorcycle races in steamboat springs colorado always provides a good excuse for netters to gather there s also been the occasional labor day gather in utah european denizens have staged some gathers too your ad here reasonable rates blaine gardner evans sutherland arapeen drive slc utah blgardne javelin sim es com bix blaine g bix com fj half of my vehicles and all of my computers are kickstarted dod blaine gardner evans sutherland arapeen drive slc utah blgardne javelin sim es com bix blaine g bix com fj half of my vehicles and all of my computers are kickstarted dod
rec.motorcycles	re oops oh no wm l ranck ranck joesbar cc vt edu wrote i hate to admit this and i m still mentally kicking myself for it i rode the brand new k rt home last friday night miles in rain and darkness no problems got it home and put it on the center stand the next day i pushed it off the center stand in preparation for going over to a friend s house to pose you guessed it it got away from me and landed on its right side scratched the lower fairing cracked the right mirror and cracked the upper fairing damn am i stupid it s going to cost me to get the local body shop to fix it and that is after i take the fairing off for them still that s probably cheaper than the mirror alone if i bought a replacement from bmw you got off cheap my sister s ex boyfriend was such an incessant pain in the ass about wanting to ride my bikes no way jose that i finally took him to lindner s bmw in new canaan ct last fall where i had seen a nice used k rs in perfect condition after telling everyone in the shop his norton war stories from fifteen years ago signing the liability waiver and getting his pre flight off he went well not quite i walked out of a pizza shop up the street feeling good about myself made my sister s boyfriend happy and got the persistent wanker off my ass for good heard the horrendous racket of an engine tortured to its red line and then a crash i saw people running towards the obvious source of the disturbance jeff laying under the bmw with the rear wheel spinning wildly and someone groping for the kill switch i stared in disbelief with a slice hanging out of my mouth as matty the shop manager slid up beside me and asked friend of yours steve shit matty it could have been worse that could been my flhs jeff hadn t made it inches witnesses said he lifted his feet before letting out the clutch and gravity got the best of him jeff claimed that the clutch didn t engage matty was quick while jeff was still stuttering in embarrassed shock he managed to snatch jeff s credit card for a quick imprint and signature twenty minutes later when jeff s color had paled to a flush matty presented him with an estimate of for a busted right mirror and a hairline crack in the fairing that was for fixing the crack and masking the damaged area not a new fairing or he could buy the bike i m not sure what happened later as my sister split up with jeff shortly afterwards to hook up with another piece of work except that matty told me he ran the charge through in december and that it went uncontested stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa o o
rec.motorcycles	re a miracle in california in article ppvof a seven up east sun com egreen east sun com writes bikers wave to bikers the world over whether or not harley riders wave to other bikers is one of our favorite flame wars i am happy to say that some harley riders in our area are better than most that are flamed about here i riding a lowly sport bike no less and my girlfriend were the recipient of no less than twenty waves from a group of at least twenty five harley riders i was leading a group of about four sport bikes at the time fj cbr rr vfr i initiated some of the waves but not all it was a perfect day and friendly riders despite some brand differences made it all the better randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod
rec.motorcycles	re more dod paraphernalia in article pppnrinnitg cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com steve bunis wrote how about a decal of thicker vinyl how about a geeky temporary tatoo i mean why should the rubs be exempt from a little razzing john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re a miracle in california re waving i must say that the courtesy of a nod or a wave as i meet other bikers while riding does a lot of good things to my mood while riding is a lot of fun by itself there s something really special about having someone say to you hey it s a great day for a ride isn t it wonderful that we can spend some time on the road on days like this with a gesture was sunny today for the first time in a week took my bike out for a spin down to the local salvage yard bike shop ran into about other people who were down there for similar reasons there s this great stretch of road on the way down there no side streets lotsa leaning bends went on an impromptu coffee and bullshit run down to puyallup with a batch of people who i didn t know but who were my kinda people nonetheless as a fellow commented to me while i was admiring his bike hey it s not what you ride it s that you ride as long as it has wheels and an engine it s the same thing maven eskimo com internet maven mavenry altcit eskimo com usenet the maven the mavenry alternet
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding in article c wkbp b w eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow hr drink for the first drinks hours drink for the next drinks hours drink for the rest these are fairly cautious guidelines and will work even if you happen to have a low tolerance or body mass i think the cops and don t you dare drink drive tm commercials will usually say hr drink in general but after about drinks and hrs you could very well be over the legal limit watch yourself mike mike muise mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca no quotes no jokes electrical engineering university of waterloo no disclaimer no fear
rec.motorcycles	re insect impacts in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes how do the helmetless do it um the same way people do it on horseback not as fast and they would probably enjoy eating bugs anyway every bit as fast as a dirtbike in the right terrain and we eat flies thank you jeeps you re supposed to keep the windscreen up then why does it go down snow skis no bugs and most poeple who go fast wear goggles so do most helmetless motorcyclists the question still stands how do cruiser riders with no or negligible helmets stand being on the highway at mph on buggy summer evenings helmetless goggleless ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re a miracle in california in article cv dtx juts ccc amdahl com bws duts ccc amdahl com brian w simmons writes now maybe this isn t a big deal to some of you but it is to me i was raised in the south and part of my cultural heritage is waving at passersby i waved from the side of the road at passing cars when i drove i waved or nodded or at least raised an index finger from the steering wheel people waved at me as i drove by i was raised in the south and i can attest that this is true why on one particularly hot day as i was walking along the road some good ole boys in a truck tossed me a cold beer of course they were going mph at the time p s to prove this wasn t a fluke it happened to me again when i was out riding on wednesday an unsolicited wave wow bikers wave to bikers the world over whether or not harley riders wave to other bikers is one of our favorite flame wars ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re cultural enquiries in article c ugg as cmptrc lonestar org irwin cmptrc lonestar org irwin arnstein writes in article phuse u sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes two questions that fascinate me check you local blue light special for a sale on lives why are rednecks called rednecks the origin of the slang is probably a reference to a sunburned neck often obtained while performing honest work outdoors the neck is specified to distinguish these people whose shirt protected chest and back are pale from the elitist wealthy who in their idiotic quest for darker skin pigmentation as a badge of leisure time overdo it and get full body sunburns more like those who use their backs instead of their minds to make their living who are usually ignorant and intolerant of anything outside of their group or level of understanding tuba irwin i honk therefore i am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r that sounds like an awfully closed minded intolerant attitude i m not a redneck but try a walk in their shoes first stereotypes are usually of very limited value i ve seen as many ignorant self righteous open minded new age lovers of the great planet earth as i have ignorant red necks i don t see a correlation i don t believe that the redneck culture if you can call it that is necessarily inferior or superior to any other i gotta have a beer i m making too much sense next thing you know i ll be preaching tolerance and i m a conservative jack waters ii dod i don t fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when i m still asleep that i worry about
rec.motorcycles	carrying crutches was re living in a previous article pooder rchland vnet ibm com don fearn says when i broke my right leg in two places not a motorcycle accident a car accident who woulda thunk it i put my crutches on gretchen s rear rack i m getting the metal rod pulled out on friday and going back on the crutches for six weeks i think crutches on the handlebars sound more aesthetically pleasing how did you attach them when i got my knee rebuilt i got back on the street bike asap i put the crutches on the rack and the passenger seat and they hung out back a long way just make sure they re tied down tight in front and no problemo go fast take chances mike s
rec.motorcycles	re kawi zephyr was re vision vs gpz in article apr pro haven cts com shadow pro haven cts com writes in apr organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x writes by the way the short lived zephyr is essentially a gpz why was the zephyr discontinued i heard something about a problem with the name but i never did hear anything certain i don t think the sold very well most north americans who ride a standard rather than a sport bike usually want something bigger people walk into the dealership look at the and the and say i might as well spring the extra bucks for the bigger engine bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	re ed must be a daemon child in a previous article svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda says in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes wait a minute here ed is noemi and satan wow and he seemed like such a nice boy at rcr i too and noemi makes me think of cuddle not kotl you talking bout the same noemi i know she makes me think of big bore hand guns and extreme weirdness this babe rode a csr across the desert and a borrowed xl on the death ride don t fuck with her man your making a big mistake go fast take chances mike s
rec.motorcycles	re identify this bike for me in article apr ucsu colorado edu coburnn spot colorado edu nicholas s coburn writes first i thought it was an rc a hawk modified by two brothers racing but i did not think that they made this huge tank for it additionally as someone who was told quite firmly by honda sales service weenies that there is no larger tank available for the hawk i have a hawk with the puny gal tank i d be very interested to know if there is any decent aftermarket solution i d love to have at least a gal tank curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re cultural enquiries in article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes in article mar aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward wrote two questions that fascinate me you are easily fascinated why are rednecks called rednecks why are you called a welch ok it s because they are often south or southeastern farmers who s necks are permanently damaged from sunburn the sun you know what that is it never sets on the british empire and never shines in wales this is a despicable lie it was sunny on rd july from am to am i made a note of it diaries are never wrong why do they ride harleys they don t they drive in pick up trucks and shoot bikers please enlighten me when i visited last the only answers i got were incoherent splutterings you deserve more john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply do you by any chance ride a harley just a feeling how is your neck calamine lotion is good i m told i am getting bored with winding up americans its like bombing fish in a barrel haaaaaaaaaaave a niiiiiiiiiiiiiiice daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay andy
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article c zkcl fgc ux cso uiuc edu eric ux cso uiuc edu cbr rr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq i am having this awful time debating with someone on why i push the right handle of my motorcycle foward when i am turning left and i can t explain well at least why this happens please help post the faq i need to convert him eric hmm if i did this would i be able to take the outriggers off
rec.motorcycles	re dr demento in article mar cs brown edu jdk cs brown edu jennet kirschenbaum writes i haven t heard dr demento in years does anyone know if it plays on any stations around prov ri such as wbcn i d love to pay for shipping and recording of the show too the best boring old farts prefer the breeze fm salt lake city wonderfully catatonic i wanted to take the whole station back with me in my flight bag especially the girlie with the sexy voice who did the morning show
rec.motorcycles	re pink tools was re what is it with girlfriends and motorcycles i only just prevented myself from diving in on this one
rec.motorcycles	re cultural enquiries in article pcl i e i bigboote wpi edu ravi vanilla wpi edu ravi narayan writes in a previous article groh nu cs fsu edu said azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes why do they ride harleys cause we can you sure are lucky i am told that there are very few people out there who can actually get their harley to ride the name tod johnson jumps to the indiscreet mind laz whats it you used to ride sig n a piece of mail with a fool at one ravi narayan cs wpi end and flames at the other c suzukigs e phaedra hi ravi if you need a harley we have lots to spare here all the yuppies bought the best a couple of years ago to pose at the s wine bar they rode a mile and walked the rest called a taxi home and went back to the porsche so there s are loads going cheap with about miles on the clock takes a while to coast to a halt cheers andy p s you get a better class of people on gs s anyway
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding in article apr galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes in article c wkbp b w eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes drinking riding what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow even a half a beer will increase your confidence while slugging your reactions and judgement not much maybe but its hard enough to stay alive out there for any length of time without stacking the odds i ll not ride after any
rec.motorcycles	re living in article apr unbvm csd unb ca c a unb ca c a writes in article apr eos arc nasa gov phil eos arc nasa gov phil stone writes thanks for the compliments allan but i think you sidestepped my point there i didn t say i didn t take any chances sheesh getting out of bed in the morning is risky i sprained my ankle damn right i was late for a climbing meet one morning so i got out of bed without bothering that my right foot was still asleep it reminded me by folding underneath with a crunching of metatarsals lucky the brake s on the right but i got funny looks riding thru london with one leg held aloft climbing wasnt a problem the best splint in the world is a tight climbing shoe
rec.motorcycles	re protective gear in article apr galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes in article c wkfs bc eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what protective gear is the most important i ve got a good helmet shoei rf and a good thick jacket leather gold and a pair of really cheap leather gloves what should my next purchase be better gloves boots leather pants what if you can remember to tuck properly the bits that are going to take most punishment with the gear you have will probably be your feet then hips and knees get boots then trousers the gloves come last as long as you ve the self control to pull your arms in when you tuck if not get good gloves first hands are very easily wrecked if you put one down to steady your fall at mph the other bits heal easier once you are fully covered you no longer tuck just lie back and enjoy the ride best of all take a mean of all the contradictory answers you get
rec.motorcycles	new dod listing membership is at there is a new dod listing to get a copy use one of these commands finger motohead cs colorado edu or mail motohead cs colorado edu if you send mail make sure your from line is correct ie man vacation i will not try at all to fix mail problems unless they are mine and i may just publicly tell the world what a bad mailer you have i do scan the mail to find bounces but i will not waste my time answering your questions or requests for those of you that want to update your entry or get a contact the kotl only the kotl can make changes so stop bothering me with inane mail i will not tell what dod is ask rec motorcycles i do not give out the s laszlo nemeth laszlo cs colorado edu hey my tool works yeah you can quote me on that from elef sun com flashbacks free drugs dod uid
rec.motorcycles	re round two in article serval net wsu edu bill wsuaix csc wsu edu william e johns s writes if good sam got bricks delivered first class postage to their door at their expense i bet they would change their policies about mailing lists or about who can use their facilities quickly and if the lord god almighty parted the sky and make a personal appearance at their board of directors meeting they would also change their policies the odds are about equal i am curious as to how many bricks i will have to send before this situatiion is cleared up to my satisfaction i suspect about we shall see you ll be extremely lucky if you ever get one through ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re another question about synthetic engi in article apr porthos cc bellcore com fist iscp bellcore com richard pierson writes two years ago he went to work for conrail as a mechanic on the emd and ge power units train engines they never ever change the oil just the filters i remember seeing an artical on large engine oil requirements and one of the ways of prolonging the life of the oil was to run through a heated un presurized chamber to allow water and volitiles to boil off this made such long term usage of oil practical isn t the discovery channel great curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	identify this bike for me ok i saw a bike today and i want to know what it is lets begin by saying that its whole rear end was definately hawk additionally it had a cbr rr style tank full fairing and only a tach now at first i thought it was an rc a hawk modified by two brothers racing but i did not think that they made this huge tank for it additionally the gauges were certainly not from a hawk they looked much more like rr gauges overall the bike looked like a rr except for the rear single sided swingarm and wheel there were straight from the hawk so what did i see ps for any of you boulder doders i saw it parked at the engineering center today it is white with light green stripes nick coburn dod ama cbr cbr coburnn spot colorado edu
rec.motorcycles	re ed must be a daemon child in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes wait a minute here ed is noemi and satan wow and he seemed like such a nice boy at rcr i too and noemi makes me think of cuddle not kotl dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com we re bad t the bone concours mmmmmmmmmm bad t the bone rz ring ding woops universally feared ama dod cog chicago denizen warcry
rec.motorcycles	re speeding ticket from chp paraphrase of initial post can i fight a speeding ticket in court my reply fight your ticket california edition by david brown st ed berkeley ca nolo press the second edition is out but not in ucb s library good luck let us know how it goes abd
rec.motorcycles	for sale h h brand new top end chambers clean black paul please do not contact this email address contact the seller cheers dave
rec.motorcycles	re what is it with cats and dogs in article gate gpd b w w ryang pgh pa us ryang ryang pgh pa us robert h yang writes hi sorry just feeling silly rob no need to appologise as a matter of fact this reminds me to bring up something i have found consistant with dogs most of the time they do not like having me and my bike anywhere near them and will chase as if to bite and kill an instructor once said it was because the sound from a bike was painfull to their ears as silly as this seams no other options have arrizen net wisdom curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re auction diana s bra in article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes next thing you know i ll see bikes with geeky stickers parked outside the local white wine quiche and fern bar hey i like quiche even if i did have to look at your note to spell it assumed correctly really you sniff tough guys are all the same mommy curtis is making fun of ferns again
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding in article c wkbp b w eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow i ll put in a vote for the latter a bike takes a lot of involvement and i for one do not want any accident to be my fault i remember one artical where the reviewer tried the radio on the bike not having had one on any of his he stated that the bike tended to go faster when the music was good i agree having felt like this my self and this was not a physical imparement like drinking just the emotional lift from music first rule of ecology there is never only one side effect ride well curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re a miracle in california waving at fellow bikers stuff deleted when i first started riding street bikes i was told it was common to recieve give a wave to a fellow biker what astounded me on moving to the left coast from the right coast was to actually get waves from harley riders no really i remember the first time as a truely memorable event it might have something to do with the no i refuse to bring that up again thanks evo for being a harley rider that waves first curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article c zkcl fgc ux cso uiuc edu eric ux cso uiuc edu cbr rr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq eric like there s a faq for this curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re ed must be a daemon child ed s heading out on the highway did he finally buy a bike or is he a passanger jeff andle dod kz ree a maine maine edu intermittentnet access arranged through bowdoin college please reply via e mail since a followup might expire before i see the net again
rec.motorcycles	re kawi zephyr was re vision vs gpz i don t know about the dinky little zephyr s but the now the zr looks alot like my z kz the one i drooled over at tri sports in topsham me was a looker yes mercury axed the zephyr name guess a lot of aging republicans wanted a zephyr and confused the mercury with the kawasaki oh well they re better off with the kawasaki anyways maybe it ll shake the stick out of their asses and make libertarians out of them as to the gpz zephyr the only gpz i ve seen had the ball buster gas tank profile not the smooth saddle to gas tank transition motorcyclist claims the zephyr zr is the modernized z kz from the seventies jeff andle dod kz ree a maine maine edu intermittentnet access arranged through bowdoin college please reply via e mail since a followup might expire before i see the net again
rec.motorcycles	re r m split was re insect impacts hpcc rec motorcycles cookson mbunix mitre org cookson pm apr all right people this inane bug wibbling is just getting to much i propose we split off a new group rec motorcycles nutrition to deal with the what to do with squashed bugs thread dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb if i was worried about who saw me i d never get vfr f nekkid at all ed green dod bianchi limited what haven t you heard about cross posting leave it intact and simply ignore the basenotes and or responses which have zero interest for a being of your stature and discriminating taste yesterday while on lonoak rd a wasp hit my faceshield with just enough force to glue it between my eyes but not enough to kill it as the legs were frantically wiggling away and i found that rather shall we say distracting i flicked it off and wiped off the residue at the next gas stop in greenfield btw lonoak rd leads from into king city although we took metz from kc into greenfield graeme harrison hewlett packard co communications components division w trimble rd san jose ca gharriso hpcc corp hp com dod
rec.motorcycles	re tools tools tools in article c c cs cmu edu jfriedl cs cmu edu writes behanna phoenix syl nj nec com chris behanna writes while we re on the subject has anyone else noticed that the deep well in craftsman s sae deep well set is too small to fit a bolt or nut when i took the socket in for an exchange every one of the deep well sockets on the rack had the exact same problem not to imply that you didn t but since you didn t mention it did you measure the size of your test nut with callipers were all three cross lengths no more than i ve seen bolt heads and even a few nuts which got slightly thicker further down toward the basa sort of a trapizodial cross section that i did not do however the sample bolt i took to the store fit rather well in the following open end wrench box end wrench point normal socket i take that as meaning it s a bolt head but as several people have pointed out and as i m noting in the tool faq i m writing up in case anyone will want it a lifetime guarantee doesn t necessiarly mean better tools yup at a socket i want the thing to fit later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx pending delivery agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re oops oh no jack rogers waters jrwaters eos ncsu edu wrote in article ppejb h vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes well at least i damaged my own bike if i had done it to someone else s property i d really feel like a jerk as it is i just feel stupid i don t mean to be a cynic but you may want to reconsider having the body work done right away the same type of thing may happen again wait till you get used to the bike etc well i waited a whole week to take the pastic bits off and take them to the body shop is that long enough bill ranck ranck joesbar cc vt edu
rec.motorcycles	re the quest for horndom in article apr research nj nec com behanna phoenix syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article apr ncsu edu jrwaters eos ncsu edu jack rogers waters writes no laughing please i have a few questions first of all do i need a relay are there different kinds and if so what kind should i get both horns are volt i did some back of the eyelids calculations last night and i figure these puppies suck up about amps to work at maximum efficiency i e the cager might need a shovel to clean out his seat assumptions dba at one meter neglecting solid angle considerations and end effects and other acoustic niceties from the shape of the horn itself this is a power output of watts watts volts is approx amps yes get a relay yes tell me how you did it i want to do it on the zx later i ll post a summary after i get enough information i ll include tips like how to know when the monkey is pulling your leg shouldn t monkey s have to be bonded and insured before they work on bikes jack waters ii dod i don t fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when i m still asleep that i worry about
rec.motorcycles	re tools tools tools what is the flank drive everyones talking about
rec.motorcycles	re cultural enquiries in article phuse u sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes two questions that fascinate me check you local blue light special for a sale on lives why are rednecks called rednecks the origin of the slang is probably a reference to a sunburned neck often obtained while performing honest work outdoors the neck is specified to distinguish these people whose shirt protected chest and back are pale from the elitist wealthy who in their idiotic quest for darker skin pigmentation as a badge of leisure time overdo it and get full body sunburns more like those who use their backs instead of their minds to make their living who are usually ignorant and intolerant of anything outside of their group or level of understanding tuba irwin i honk therefore i am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r
rec.motorcycles	re hats update patches too in article xhfg b w w fringe rain com dean fringe rain com dean woodward writes i ve got orders for about hats the expensive part not surprisingly is going to be having the patches made with a setup fee of or so dean there s an old engineering saying concerning inventions and wheels contact he s done several runs of patches and there is some patch making company out there with the artwork already set up and paid for ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re chain lube was re rm consensus on chain cleaning in article apr elektro cmhnet org charlie elektro cmhnet org charlie smith writes in article mar linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes anyone try the spray on chain wax that was reviewed in one of the moto rags last month yeah i sprayed it all over my rear drive shaft housing and it didn t seem to make it any quieter at all didn t you read the instructions first you re supposed to spray it in your ears so you won t be distracted by the chain noise of the other bikes around you that s why it s called chain wax chuck rogers car torreys att com car cbnewsj att com
rec.motorcycles	re bmw nostalgia question from a neophyte to go one step further you could write roland slabon pres of the vintage bmw motorcycle owners ltd at p o box exeter new hampshire and he ll send you copy of the bimonthly rag with info as to where to send your bucks if ya want to join as far as the price of s beemers it varies wildly from a low of around for an unrestored bike that still runs like an r or r to or so for a restored r s don t listen to that bull about the old bmw s not being good enough to ride in todays world hell i m riding my r single from mississippi to the bmw moa national rally in oshkosh wisconsin on the nd of july this year sincerely craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador bmw vintage bulletin tech editor dod real bmw s have round tail lights and roller cranks
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article apr unbvm csd unb ca c a unb ca c a writes in article c zkcl fgc ux cso uiuc edu eric ux cso uiuc edu cbr rr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq i am having this awful time debating with someone on why i push the right handle of my motorcycle foward when i am turning left and i can t explain well at least why this happens please help post the faq i need to convert him ummm if you push on the right handle of your bike while at speed and your bike turns left methinks your bike has a problem when i do it really methinks somethings wrong with your bike perhaps you meant pull pushing the right side of my handlebars will send me left it should really on my bike i turn right no wonder you need that faq if i had it i d send it i m sure others will take up the slack andy infante i sometimes wish that people would put a little more emphasis bmw r upon the observance of the law than they do upon it s dod enforcement calvin coolidge my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re cultural enquiries in article apr aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes i am getting bored with winding up americans its like bombing fish in a barrel or little children at the market or is that the irish hard to keep all you not really english types straight michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	re another question about synthetic engi in article apr spectrum xerox com cooley xerox com writes in article news arc nasa gov howland noc arc nasa gov curt howland writes castrol syntec does not contain teflon it gets its greater lubrication by bonding to the metal surfaces of the engine thus making the metal ride on the polymer rather than having metal to metal contact i do not know if this also reduces the acid contact with the metal but it seems likely just becase something forms a resin does not mean that it s not teflon based the ptfe in slick is not teflon either but it s still teflon based teflon is a dupont owned tradename for ptfe slick does indeed use dupont teflon though some other brands of such stuff may use imported ptfe of another brand teflon being a trade name should always by capitalized dupont disclaims any benefits of ptfe in the oil supply of internal combustion engines btw dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com we re bad t the bone concours mmmmmmmmmm bad t the bone rz ring ding woops universally feared ama dod cog chicago denizen warcry
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes in article apr unbvm csd unb ca c a unb ca c a writes in article c zkcl fgc ux cso uiuc edu eric ux cso uiuc edu cbr rr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq i am having this awful ummm if you push on the right handle of your bike while at speed and your bike turns left methinks your bike has a problem when i do it really methinks somethings wrong with your bike perhaps you meant pull pushing the right side of my handlebars will send me left it should really on my bike i turn right no wonder you need that faq if i had it i d send it i m sure others will take up the slack andy infante i sometimes wish that people would put a little more emphasis oh lord this is where i came in obcountersteer for some reason i ve discovered that pulling on the wrong side of the handlebars rather than pushing on the other wrong side if you get my meaning provides a feeling of greater control for example rather than pushing on the right side to lean right to turn right hi lonny pulling on the left side at least until i get leaned over to the right feels more secure and less counter intuitive maybe i need psychological help obcountersteer v anyone else find it ironic that in the weekend and a night msf class they don t mention countersteering until after the first day of riding tommy mcguire who s going to hit his head on door frames the rest of the evening leaning into those tight turns mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com i will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm
rec.motorcycles	re living in article c rz j q odin corp sgi com amc crash wpd sgi com allan mcnaughton writes in article mar eos arc nasa gov phil eos arc nasa gov phil stone writes alan nothing personal but i object to the we all in that statement i was on many of those rides that alan is describing pushing the envelope does not necessarily equal taking insane chances moreover if two riders are riding together at the same speed one might be riding well beyond his abilities and the other may have a safety margin left oh come on phil you re an excellent rider but you still take plenty of chances don t tell me that it s just your skill that keeps you from getting wacked there s a lot of luck thrown in there too you re a very good rider and a very lucky one too hope your luck holds allan i know the circumstances of several of your falls on the ride when you fell while i was next behind you you made an error of judgement by riding too fast when you knew the road was damp and you reacted badly when you were surprised by an oncoming car that crash was due to factors that were subject to your control i won t deny that there s a combination of luck and skill involved for each of us but it seems that you re blaming bad luck for more of your own pain than is warranted chuck karish karish mindcraft com x karish pangea stanford edu
rec.motorcycles	re recommended bike for a tall beginner in article sdcc ucsd edu jtozer sdcc ucsd edu john tozer writes i am looking for advice on what bikes i should check out i am tall and find my legs hips uncomfortably bent on most of the bikes i have ridden not many admittedly are there any bikes out there built for a taller rider there s plenty of legroom on the kawasaki klr a bit short in the braking department for spirited street riding but enough for dirt and for less agressive street stuff chuck karish karish mindcraft com x karish pangea stanford edu
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow this thread brings back memorys of an expensive day in traffic court a few years ago while i was waiting my turn to state my case and plea of why i was going in a in my cage i had the opportunity to listen to some of the creative excuses offered the judge by others after listening to a number of well i was passing a very slow truck that suddenly speed up versions i decided that the judge had heard just about every story in the book and then some he was less than impressed with any of them this young rather burley looking guy had his docket read by a rather drill sargent looking ohio state highyway patrol trooper he was clocked riding a motorcycle at a speed of mph in a mph zone it was also noted that the defendant motorcycle rider had alcohol on his breath but was not cited for this offence the judge looked over his half glasses purched on the end of his nose and said in his sternest voice well son those are some pretty fast speeds to be riding a motorcycle what do you have to say for your self well sir meekly the defenant replied i just was over to my buddys and we had a couple of beers and i was on my way home he offered nothing more or less just had a couple of beers and was doing mph on his way home the judge moved by the simplicity of the response fined him the maximum in this case plus court costs of course and ordered him to attend remedial drivers training school isn t america great bill mohrman cb c motorola sps columbus oh disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re how big is too big was re st bike azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes azw weight and size over rough roads is a definite no no if is starts to azw drift you aint going to catch it leavitt cs umd edu mr bill says mrb if you re riding hard enough for this to be of concern then yes a mrb lighter bike is more beneficial ai cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes ms if you re not riding hard enough for this to be a concern are you ms having any fun sure i ve never been much of a racerboy as anybody who s attended the minibike spectacular can attest i get a great deal of satisfaction in riding fast yet now so fast as to be overly concerned about not being able to maintain a clean line and while i m still known to slide the occasional tire i much prefer to stay just to the sticky side of that line i ve found that i don t heal as well as i used to in days of yore btw how s the knee mrb anyway am i more likely to catch a than a not necessarily mrb tires road surface and rider ability are a much more important criteria ms actually big horsepower is just as likely to get you out of trouble ms when it starts to drift as your puny body mass pushing on stuff a well ms placed push from or horsepower can do a lot to straighten or change ms in a beneficial way the trajectory of the bike rider system that s a quite true another plus for a bike the original thread i think damn circular threads ms go fast take chances ms ms mike s mr bill bill leavitt cbx white lightning gs g suzibago leavitt cs umd edu cj little honda lone star sick leave dod ama icoa nia impala convertible the incredible hulk others hmmm i thought bore and stroke was the technique michael bain
rec.motorcycles	re protective gear in article c wkfs bc eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes question for the day what protective gear is the most important i ve got a good helmet shoei rf and a good thick jacket leather gold and a pair of really cheap leather gloves what should my next purchase be better gloves boots leather pants what condom during wone of the times i had to go over my accident i was asked if i was wearing protection my responces was yes i was wearing a condom laz
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes in article apr unbvm csd unb ca c a unb ca c a writes in article c zkcl fgc ux cso uiuc edu eric ux cso uiuc edu cbr rr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq i am having this awful time debating with someone on why i push the right handle of my motorcycle foward when i am turning left and i can t explain well at least why this happens please help post the faq i need to convert him ummm if you push on the right handle of your bike while at speed and your bike turns left methinks your bike has a problem when i do it pushing the right side of my handlebars will send me left i m sure others will take up the slack oh yes i m quite sure they will axel
rec.motorcycles	re why i won t be getting my low rider this year in article mar pb esac uucp prahren pb esac uucp peter ahrens writes in article mar cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes i had planned to get an hd this year but instead i took delivery on a brand new male offspring er last monday sounds like you should have been doing your planning last year given harley davidson s product delivery lag and the human gestation cycle or perhaps any planning at all hiya pete still got that cbx nice to hear from you again and yes i finally did figure out why this happens and i have taken steps to ensure a storkish repetition that would be low drag bars and way rad rearsets for the fj so that the ergonomic constraints would have contraceptive consequences ouch this brings to mind one of the recommendations in the hurt study because the rear of the gas tank is in close proximity to highly prized and easily damaged anatomy hurt et al recommended that manufacturers build the tank so as to reduce the er step function provided when the rider s body slides off of the seat and onto the gas tank in the unfortunate event that the bike stops suddenly and the rider doesn t i think it s really inspiring how the manufacturers have taken this advice to heart in their design of bikes like the cbr rr and the gts a chuck rogers car torreys att com car cbnewsj att com
rec.motorcycles	re speeding ticket from chp in article pq t k i agate berkeley edu downey homer cs berkeley edu allen b downey writes fight your ticket california edition by david brown st ed berkeley ca nolo press the second edition is out but not in ucb s library good luck let us know how it goes daniel matejka writes the fourth edition is out too but it s probably also not very high on ucb s gotta have that list in article na em mcimail com mcimail com peter nesbitt writes riding to work last week via hwy from suisun to i i was pulled over by a chp black and white by the gas station by jameson canyon road the officer stated it looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going at least or i just said okay and did not agree or disagree to anything he said can you beat this ticket personally i think it s your duty as a citizen to make it as much trouble as possible for them so maybe they ll give up and leave us alone someday soon the cop was certainly within his legal rights to nail you by guessing your speed mr brown the author of fight your ticket mentions an oakland judge who convicted a speeder on the officer s testimony that the driver s car sounded like it was being driven at an excessive speed you can pay off the state and your insurance company or you can take it to court and be creative personally i ve never won that way or seen anyone win but the judge always listens politely and i haven t seen that many attempts you could try the argument that since bikes are shorter than the cars whose speed the nice officer is accustomed to guessing they therefore appear to be further away and so their speed appears to be greater than it actually is i left out a step or two but you get the idea if you can make it convincing theoretically you re supposed to win i ve never tried proving the cop was mistaken i did get to see some other poor biker try it he was mixing up various facts like the maximum acceleration of a cop car and the distance at which the cop had been pacing him and end up demonstrating that he couldn t possibly have been going as fast as the cop had suggested he d brought diagrams and a calculator he was prepared he lost keep in mind cops do this all the time and their word is better than yours maybe though they don t guess how fast bikes are going all the time besides this guy didn t speak english very well and ended up absolutely confounding the judge the cop and everyone else in the room who d been recently criminalized by some twit with a gun and a quota ahem ok i m better now maybe he d have won had his presentation been more polished maybe not he did get applause
rec.motorcycles	re dod oficial tm newbie bike of choice in article pplsc q news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu john r daker writes i propose that the official dod newbie bike of choice tm be the zx d nothing like giving newbies a land rocket to practice on it offers enough power so that a novice rider can safely accelerate out of harms way in situations where a more experienced rider would use complex avoidance manouvers yup accelerate right into the back of an wheel truck um how s the easiest way to get newbies of the road regards ted university of toronto computer engineering powerusersgroupchairman fzr i m taking a ride with my best friend dod
rec.motorcycles	re cultural enquiries more like those who use their backs instead of their minds to make their living who are usually ignorant and intolerant of anything outside of their group or level of understanding there seems to be some confusion between rednecks and white trash the confusion is understandable as there is substantial overlap between the two sets let me see if i can clarify rednecks primarily use their backs instead of their minds to make a living usually somewhat ignorant by somebody s standards anyway because they have never held education above basic reading writing math skills to be that important to their eventual vocation note i did not say stupid just ignorant they might be stupid but then so are some high percentage of any group white trash white trash fit the stereotype referred to by the word nigger better than any black person i ever met only with the added bonus that white trash are mean as hell my father genuinely lazy not just out of work or under qualified good for nothing dishonest white people who are mean as snakes the squeal like a pig boys in deliverance may or may not have been rednecks but they were sure as hell white trash white trash are assuredly intolerant of anything outside of their group or level of understanding rednecks may or may not be curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re protective gear in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca writes in article c wkfs bc eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes question for the day what protective gear is the most important i ve got a good helmet shoei rf and a good thick jacket leather gold and a pair of really cheap leather gloves what should my next purchase be better gloves boots leather pants what i would go for the gloves there s not a whole lot that you can do in life if you have no skin on your hands yup ruins your sex life tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re twit bicyclists was re oh joy in article apr spectrum xerox com cooley xerox com writes yo assholes i hope you are all just kidding because it s exactly that kind of attidue that gets many a motorcyclist killed look at the leather clad poseurs watch how they swirve and swear as i pretend that they don t exist while i change lanes if you really find it necesary to wreck others enjoyment of the road to boost your ego then it is truely you who are the poseur aaron disgruntled volvo drivers what are they rebelling against steatopygias s r us doh that ain t no hottentot sesquipedalian s r us zx ama dod there ain t no more
rec.motorcycles	re question arai quantum s in article c zqel e b ms uky edu amir ms uky edu amir sadr writes they way i want it to however i have the following problem my chin hangs out from the bottom of the helmet i am curious to know whether i would still have this problem if i were to switch to the extra large size in particular can anyone tell me for certain if the outer shell of the arai quantum s in size x large is any different larger rounder etc than the same helmet in size large or if the inner padding foam on the x large is such that one s head fits a little deeper in the helmet and thus one s chin would not stick out this is true for the very old arthur fulmer helmets that i have namely my chin hangs out a little from the bottom of the large helmet and not at all from the x large but the x large is not as snug as the large the dealer is willing to replace the helmet at no additional cost i e shipping but i want to make sure that the x large is in fact a little bigger or linered such that my chin will not hang out and how much looser will my head fit in the x large if anyone has recent experience with this helmet please let me hear e mail from you asap thank you so much amir i m not sure about the helmet but for chin questions you might want to write to a jay leno c o tonight show burbank calif good luck steatopygias s r us doh that ain t no hottentot sesquipedalian s r us zx ama dod there ain t no more
rec.motorcycles	re living in article apr rchland ibm com pooder rchland vnet ibm com don fearn writes in article apr unbvm csd unb ca c a c a unb ca writes i sprained my right ankle once and kept riding when i broke my right leg in two places i had knee surgery while i was in the navy back in the doctors put me in a cast from ass to ankle my only method of transportaion was a dohc honda at the time i found that by sliding back on the seat i could use my heel did i mention it was my left leg to operate the shift i would hook the end of the lever with my heel and lift my entire leg for up shifts and just drop my leg on the lever for the down shifts forget nutral took way too much finesse for the leg the crutches were bungee corded to the right side of the bike with the top resting on the passenger peg and the right turnsignal sticking through the hole in the crutches every other day when i rode the miles to physical therapy tourture sessions the doc would give me hell about riding a bike much less riding in my condition didn t stop me tho b p btw this is the same bike i assembled in my second floor barracks room and rode down the stairs when it was completed i am not paid to have an opinion dr speed suzuki gs g dod
rec.motorcycles	re speeding ticket from chp in article dmatejkac dmb lh netcom com dmatejka netcom com daniel matejka writes in article pq t k i agate berkeley edu downey homer cs berkeley edu allen b downey writes fight your ticket california edition by david brown st ed berkeley ca nolo press the second edition is out but not in ucb s library good luck let us know how it goes daniel matejka writes can you beat this ticket personally i think it s your duty as a citizen to make it as much trouble as possible for them so maybe they ll give up and leave us alone someday soon the cop was certainly within his legal rights to nail you by guessing your speed mr brown the author of fight your ticket mentions an oakland judge who convicted a speeder on the officer s testimony that the driver s car sounded like it was being driven at an excessive speed cough choke what if a cop gave me a ticket for sounding like i was speeding i d probably show up in court without a lawyer simply because sounding like speeding is ridiculous if i was found guilty i d appeal and then show up with a lawyer if a cop doesn t do one of vascar from car or plane radar lidar other electronic speed measuring device pace me and i m within mph or so of the limit i d go to court i can accept a cop seeing me going excessively fast like over the limit but he looked like he was going or so in a zone is not beyond a reasonable doubt granted i may well lose the case but in a measured by eye take it to court for sure axel
rec.motorcycles	re protective gear in article c wkfs bc eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes question for the day what protective gear is the most important i ve got a good helmet shoei rf and a good thick jacket leather gold and a pair of really cheap leather gloves what should my next purchase be better gloves boots leather pants what what s your favorite body part blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re why i won t be getting my low rider this year in article apr cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes in article mar pb esac uucp prahren pb esac uucp peter ahrens writes that would be low drag bars and way rad rearsets for the fj so that the ergonomic constraints would have contraceptive consequences ouch this brings to mind one of the recommendations in the hurt study because the rear of the gas tank is in close proximity to highly prized and easily damaged anatomy hurt et al recommended that manufacturers build the tank so as to reduce the er step function provided when the rider s body slides off of the seat and onto the gas tank in the unfortunate event that the bike stops suddenly and the rider doesn t i think it s really inspiring how the manufacturers have taken this advice to heart in their design of bikes like the cbr rr and the gts a i dunno on my old gs e the tank seat junction was nice and smooth but if you were to travel all the way forward you d collect the top triple clamp in a sensitive area i d hate to have to make the choice but i think i d prefer the fj s gas tank blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re speeding ticket from chp interesting i d fight the ticket first off there s a chance the cop won t show up secondly if he does show up you should point out that he lied purgered on the ticket why i beleive that if yo re charged with going more than mph that the posted speed it s a more severe ticket you couldn t have p ossibly been going right max queernet org max j rochlin uunet sgi unpc max protect me from what i want
rec.motorcycles	eating and riding was re drinking and riding what s the feeling about eating and riding i went out riding this weekend and got a little carried away with some pecan pie the whole ride back i felt sluggish i was certainly much more alert on the ride in i m sure others have the same feeling but the strangest thing is that eating is usually the turnaround point of weekend rides from now on a little snack will do i d much rather have a get that full sluggish feeling closer to home paul paul nakada oracle corporation pnakada oracle com dod r c k s
rec.motorcycles	re protective gear in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes i m still looking for good gloves myself as the ones i have now are too loose when you find some new ones i suggest donating the ones you have now to the lautrec family in france grin michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re goldwing performance hpcc rec motorcycles stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford am apr in article pf hs b d transfer stratus com cdodson beast cac stratus com r craig dodson wrote from the summary in the back of motorcyclist they run the in at about mph interestingly enough this winnebago of bikes is faster than any of the harleys listed it depreciates much faster too john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply the gl a hit the traps at according to cycle magazine yeah they depreciate faster than harleys for the first couple of years then they bottom out got my gl i w miles on the odometer for just under k in may of and would ask for now with almost k miles onnit that s about of what a new gl i would cost think the gl i originally sold for brand new not sure if that s the case then it depreciated over years or a mere big fat hairy deal based on what i know harleys tend to depreciate your monies far more than the initial depreciation of the bike itself when it comes to parts and service all this about harleys holding their value better doesn t always wash away the knocks on them such as being much slower according to peter egan in the just released cycle world his flhs is a real dog when he pillions his lb wife all that money for a dog that doesn t defecate much graeme harrison hewlett packard co communications components division w trimble rd san jose ca gharriso hpcc corp hp com dod
rec.motorcycles	data logging greetings can someone steer me towards sources of information on vehicle data logging systems in particular i would like to build buy or a little of both a system that is small enough to fit on a motorcycle and will take input from various sensors pressure lvdt s acceleration rpm o sensor digitize and record it for later analysis please email me any info if i get anything interesting i ll compile it and get it on the net thanks marty capadona marty carter ca boeing com seattle wa gpz gs hawk gt gs ama msf wmrra omrra forget what i said
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding norman hamer maven eskimo com wrote what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow it depends on how badly you want to live the faa says eight hours bottle to throttle for pilots but recommends twenty four hours the fars specify a blood alcohol level of as legally drunk i think which is more than twice as strict as dwi minimums btw alcohol metabolizes in your blood at a fixed rate one beer hour will keep your blood alcohol level barely street legal coffee hyperventilation and other bar tricks won t speed it up nor will they fool mr ranger stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa o o
rec.motorcycles	fork seals i m about to undertake changing the fork seals on my ex my clymer manual says i need the following tools from kawasaki t handle looking thing in illustration some type of adapter for the end of the t handle no illustration of this tool and the manual just refers to it as the kawasaki tool oil seal and bearing remover how necessary are these tools considering the dealers around here didn t have the clymer manual fork seals and a turn signal assembly in stock i really doubt they have these tools in stock and i d really like to get this done this week any help would be appreciated as always vela acs oakland edu psgi todd rm the only bike sold without todd doolittle a red line troy mi ex dod
rec.motorcycles	bmw r info wanted hi someone is selling his bmw r i think it s an w k miles for he says it s in great condition and perfect shape it s got the hard saddle bags too is this a good deal seems like an awesome deal is it assuming that everything he says is true thanks jae jae cmu edu
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle courier summer job in article poj inn k west west sun com gaijin ale japan sun com john little nihon sun repair depot writes in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes i think i ve found the ultimate summer job it s dangerous involves motorcycles requires high speeds in traffic and it pays well so my question is as follows has anyone here done this sort of work what was your experience stuff deleted get a good atoz type indexed streetmap for all of the areas you re likely to work always carry plenty of black plastic bin liners to check with the local fire department my buddy is a firefighter and they have these small map books which are amazing they are compact easy to use no folding they even have a cross reference section in which you match your current cross streets with the cross streets you want to go to and it details the quickest route they gave me an extra they had laying around but then again i know all those people i m not really sure if they are supposed to give sell them the police may also have something similar john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan vela acs oakland edu psgi todd rm the only bike sold without todd doolittle a red line troy mi ex dod
rec.motorcycles	help with backpack as summer approaches the usual preparations are being made me was thinking of going for some overnite camping trips in the local state forests for that i was planning to get a backpack rucksack the next question is how shall i carry the thing on the bike given the metal frame and all i have a big backrest approx high and was hoping that i would be able to bungee cord the backpack to the backrest any one have any experiences on such experimentation taking the idea further what would happen if the backpack was fully loaded with a full load lbs is the load distribution going to be very severly affected how will the bike perform with such a load clinging to the back rest if i really secure it with no shifting do i still increase my chances of surfing collective r m wisdom requested p s i really can t afford leather pants boots and jeans are all i can make do with what you think of the knee protectors which rollerbladers use the one l l bean and like sells is that a bad idea tm are there any equivalents cb dod i would give my right arm to be ambidextrous
rec.motorcycles	bmw k rt for sale this is posted for a friend please reply to dschick holonet net bmw k rt for sale asking or best offer this bike has a full faring and is great for touring or commuting it has about k miles and has been well cared for the bike comes with one hard saddle bag the left one the right side bag was stolen a harro tank bag the large one and an ungo box alarm interested then please drop me a line das
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca mike muise writes in article c wkbp b w eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow hr drink for the first drinks hours drink for the next drinks hours drink for the rest i took an alcohol server s class a few years ago what the hey my employer paid for it we were told that the drink hour rule was written with proof booze and a pound person in mind drinking cuervo gold weighing in i obviously will get drunk faster than the theoretical person mentioned above worse imagine rum coke made with bacardi mind you all that s for getting too drunk to drive a car i may only have been riding for a month or so but i plan my evenings with a very rigid exclusive or statement either don t drink or don t ride pretty simple these are fairly cautious guidelines and will work even if you happen to have a low tolerance or body mass i think the cops and don t you dare drink drive tm commercials will usually say hr drink in general but after about drinks and hrs you could very well be over the legal limit watch yourself mike sorry mike i have to believe that that policy works best as fertilizer even if all you plan to do is drive home nice and safe in your cage mike muise mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca no quotes no jokes electrical engineering university of waterloo no disclaimer no fear dean woodward you want to step into my world dean fringe rain com it s a socio psychotic state of bliss virago guns n roses my world dod
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca mjmuise wats i think the cops and don t you dare drink drive tm commercials will usually say hr drink in general but after about drinks and hrs you could very well be over the legal limit watch yourself indeed especially if you are smart and eat some food with your drink the food coating the stomach lining especially things like milk can temporarily retard the absorption of alcohol when the food is digested the absorption will proceed and you will actually be drunker i e have a higher instantaneous bac than you would have been if you had drunk drink hr on an empty stomach put another way food can cause you to be less drunk than drinking on an empty stomach early on in those five hours but more drunk than drinking on an empty stomach later in those five hours curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson again from my alcohol server s class the absolute most that eating before drinking can do is slow the absorption down by minutes that gives me time to eat slam one beer and ride like hell to try to make it home in the minutes left after paying donning helmet gloves starting bike dean woodward you want to step into my world dean fringe rain com it s a socio psychotic state of bliss virago guns n roses my world dod
rec.motorcycles	mgnoc address if anyone has the current moto guzzi national owners club address please e mail it to me thanks in advance t k
rec.motorcycles	re help with backpack sanjay kin lap upenn edu sanjay sinha writes as summer approaches the usual preparations are being made me was thinking of going for some overnite camping trips in the local state forests for that i was planning to get a backpack rucksack the next question is how shall i carry the thing on the bike given the metal frame and all i have a big backrest approx high and was hoping that i would be able to bungee cord the backpack to the backrest any one have any experiences on such experimentation taking the idea further what would happen if the backpack was fully loaded with a full load lbs is the load distribution going to be very severly affected how will the bike perform with such a load clinging to the back rest if i really secure it with no shifting do i still increase my chances of surfing i ride my bike regularly to classes with my book bag i take the shoulder straps on the bag and hook them around the rear turn signals i works fine you probably will want to attach it with a bungee cord to keep it from shifting to one side or another dan ramage ramage charlie ece scarolina edu vulcan dod i wanted a harley but i haven t won the lottery yet them bats is smart they use radar d letterman
rec.motorcycles	re new hudson questions davide dcs qmw ac uk dave edmondson writes dave tharp cds davet interceptor cds tek com wrote in article kmr b w w ham almanac bc ca emd ham almanac bc ca writes one of their main designers bert le vack broke many records at brooklands in the late s in the early s bert le vack set records on indians including mph at brooklands in november of on a in powerplus racing model must have been a busy lad he was also a tuner and all round guru at jap and worked with george brough can someone post me details of the illustrated ecyclopedia of motorcycles sounds like a book i ought to have a copy of sure i can the illustrated encyclopedia of motorcycles edited by erwin tragatsch was published by the hamlyn publishing group limited astronaut house hounslow road feltham middlesex england it was first published in and mine was reprinted in cost then was pounds in the uk though i paid for it in canadian dollars i have no idea whether it s still in print perhaps you could let the net know bob robert smits ladysmith bc if lucas built weapons wars emd ham almanac bc ca would never start either
rec.motorcycles	re this just in in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist writes in article mar rchland ibm com pooder msus msus edu writes sampled recently were using unauthorized software the inspector general said in a new report the inspector general make way for his excellency the inspector general hail hail to brodney to the sky behold the lord high executioner no that s something else i ve already discussed this in e mail with jonathan it s the film the inspector general with danny kaye although i can t quote the name of the leading lady because maltin doesn t jonathan thinks there was an earlier russian film movies on tv just says it was based on a gogol yes jonathan i looked it up again only two o s story ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx f rg wd si you porsche me pass dod
rec.motorcycles	for sale kawasaki ex michigan for sale kawasaki ex with miles excellent condition kept in a garage asking he who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt he has been given a large brain by mistake since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice albert einstein brian vaughan brian vaughan um cc umich edu
rec.motorcycles	re beer unto bicyclists in article mar erich triumf ca ivan erich triumf ca ivan d reid wrote in article tcora b gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes mxcrew problem with inews domain file the mx crew wrote just an information no flame war please budweiser is a beer from the old csfr nowadays tschechien i just know the german word czechoslovakia budweiser budwar pronounced bud var not any more a short while ago jan st it split into the czech republic and slovakia actually i think for a couple of years its official name was the czech and slovak republics sheesh don t you guys get cnn cnn yuppietv tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re speeding ticket from chp in article pqarb fnq gaia ucs orst edu crucej osshe edu jerry cruce writes peter nesbitt mcimail com wrote riding to work last week via hwy from suisun to i i was pulled over by a chp black and white by the gas station by jameson canyon road the officer stated it looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going at least or i just said okay and did not agree or disagree to anything he said the next time you get stoped by a cop never never never admit to anything don t volunteer any information when a retoracle question is ask by the cop like it looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going at least or the correct reponse is to deny it this technique is employed by police to help establish guilt especially when times out of he she is not sure who was doing the speeding if the cop is unsure this may be the difference of him letting you off the hook or getting the tissue hope this helps for next time steven bakalis
rec.motorcycles	re identify this bike for me in article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article apr ucsu colorado edu coburnn spot colorado edu nicholas s coburn writes first i thought it was an rc a hawk modified by two brothers racing but i did not think that they made this huge tank for it additionally i think i ve seen this bike is it all white with a sea green stripe and just honda for decals i ve seen such a bike numerous times over by sewall hall at cu and i thought it was a race prepped cbr i didn t see it over at the ec parking lot i buzzed over there on my way home all of block off my route but it was gone is a single sided swingarm available for the cbr i would imagine so kinda neccisary for quick tire changes when i first saw it i assumed it was a bike repainted to cover crash damage joel
rec.motorcycles	re help with backpack sanjay sinha sanjay kin lap upenn edu wrote the next question is how shall i carry the thing on the bike given the metal frame and all i have a big backrest approx high and was hoping that i would be able to bungee cord the backpack to the backrest any one have any experiences on such experimentation put the pack on the pillion and bungee it to the backrest if that is not possible then you should be able to bungee it behind the backrest just make sure it doesn t bend or break anything like the rear fender or turnsignals bill ranck ranck joesbar cc vt edu cars making a sudden u turn are the most dangerous they may cut you off entirely blocking the whole roadway and leaving you no place to go pg msf motorcycle operator manual sixth rev
rec.motorcycles	re kawi zephyr was re vision vs gpz in article apr pro haven cts com shadow pro haven cts com writes in apr organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x writes by the way the short lived zephyr is essentially a gpz why was the zephyr discontinued i heard something about a problem with the name but i never did hear anything certain ford had an anemic mid sized car by that name back in the last decade i rented one once that car would ruin the name zephyr for any other use rod roderick sprattling no job too great no time too small sprattli azores crd ge com with feet to fire and back to wall
rec.motorcycles	re why i won t be getting my low rider this year in article apr cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes ouch this brings to mind one of the recommendations in the hurt study because the rear of the gas tank is in close proximity to highly prized and easily damaged anatomy hurt et al recommended that manufacturers build the tank so as to reduce the er step function provided when the rider s body slides off of the seat and onto the gas tank in the unfortunate event that the bike stops suddenly and the rider doesn t i think it s really inspiring how the manufacturers have taken this advice to heart in their design of bikes like the cbr rr and the gts a when i m riding my rr my goodies are already up against the tank because the design of the corbin seat tends to move you forward wouldn t the major danger to one s cajones be due to accelerating into and then being stopped by the tank if you re already there there wouldn t be an impact problem would there michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re thoughts on a yamaha seca turbo in article apr skyfox howp skyfox writes i was wondering if anybody knows anything about a yamaha seca turbo i m considering buying a used seca turbo for canadian us with km on the odo this will be my first bike any comments don t just nab it pounce on it these are fairly rare bikes and they are more than adequate for putting a big brown stripe in your shorts does a mph power wheelie appeal to you i thought it would only really bad things the stock clutch isn t up to the task barnett can take care of this the back tire wears quickly gee wonder why and the induction system is a bear to work on later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx pending delivery agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re tools tools tools in article apr research nj nec com behanna phoenix syl nj nec com chris behanna writes while we re on the subject has anyone else noticed that the deep well in craftsman s sae deep well set is too small to fit a bolt or nut when i took the socket in for an exchange every one of the deep well sockets on the rack had the exact same problem looking into the socket it appears that craftsman s toolmaker attempted to imitate flank drive on this piece but did not account for the extra clearance needed inside the socket never had any problem with mine are you sure the nut bolt you are trying is really a hex mm is just slightly larger and a wrench won t fit on a gm mm nut my gmc pickup has several mm nuts on it really annoying metric threads too seems that most of the body is metric most of the engine is sae jonathan lusky lusky ccwf cc utexas edu jeep wrangler for sale rx a holley bbl camaro rs spd
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in article c nnt j i dartvax dartmouth edu russell p hughes dartmouth edu r ussell p hughes writes what a great day got back home last night from some fantastic skiing in colorado and put the battery back in the fxstc cleaned the plugs opened up the petcock waited a minute hit the starter and bingo it started up like a charm spent a restless night anticipating the first ride du saison and off i went this morning to get my state inspection done now my bike is stock so far except for hd slash cut pipes and therein lies the rub the hd slash cut or baloney cuts as some call them are not stock mufflers they re sold for off road use only and are much louder than stock mufflers arnie
rec.motorcycles	tracing license plates of bdi cagers this morning a truck that had been within my sight and i within his for about miles suddenly forgot that i existed and pulled over right on me my front wheel was about even with the back edge of his front passenger door as i was accelerating past him it was trivial enough for me to tap the brakes and slide behind him as he slewed over with no signal of course on top of me with my little horn blaring damn i need fiamms but the satisfaction of being aware of my surroundings and thus surviving was not enough especially when i later pulled up alongside the bastard and he made no apologetic wave or anything is there some way that i can memorize the license plate of an offending vehicle and get the name and address of the owner i m not going to firebomb houses or anything i d just like to write a consciousness raising letter or two i think that it would be good for bdi cagers to know that we know where they live maybe they d use or brain cells while driving instead of the usual curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re cnn california mc helmet law article jlp wink jlp blink att com jon peticolas x writes hey it works you could present the paragraph above to virtually any member of the non motorcycling public and they ll buy right into it just about any argument you can produce in favor of banning helmetless riding can be used to argue in favor of banning motorcycles it s just a matter of degree that s absurd that statement must therefore say that any argument in favor of seatbelts or airbags is an argument against automobiles any argument for lifeguards is an argument against swimming it says that any agrgument in favor of safety precautions is an argument for banning the activity to which the precautions apply extrapolating to that degree is ridiculous there wouldn t be any normal human activity left to do therefore it is a non seqitur also even though most people do not ride motorcycles they do boat sail jetski climb ski fly parachute hang glide glide bungee jump bike skate rollerblade skateboard play rugby ouch mow the lawn rewire the basement operate heavy machinery and do a host of other dangerous things that would all be as valid as motorcycling as activities to ban your little homily applies to all those things and the general public buying into banning motorcycles without realizing that their activity would be next is unlikely terry cunningham terry rsi prc com donuts is there anything they dod diviner of dreams can t do homer hifi
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in article c nnt j i dartvax dartmouth edu russell p hughes dartmouth edu russell p hughes writes start her up and rev to about rpm i fail cuz i register db and the max allowed is if i fail with these pipes there are gonna next time make the numbers more believable this is poor flamebait db is getting close to the sound of a jumbo jet engine at takeoff revs from some small number of yards away it is certainly right around the pain threshold for humans no way in hell the state permits db if they have any standard at all curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re kawi zephyr was re vision vs gpz in article organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x writes by the way bob er dave sorry i had read a review that said the engine was pretty much identical to the gpz but that the suspension and frame is more modern the fancy piggyback shocks on the and the i think i don t know about the zr are very nice way adjustability the forks are crappy they dive like mad i had progressive springs installed and it made a huge difference cheap fix much improvement elef
rec.motorcycles	re how not to put a motor together in article apr tcsi com markk tcs com mark kromer writes in article mimsy umd edu leavitt cs mr bill writes put pistons in bores first then lower onto bottom end deleted has anybody actually carried out this procedure i can visualize fewer problems with canting pistons in the cylinders with this method but more trouble with keeping the bores suspended especially for the first two pistons and with working space to insert piston pins and clips especially for the last two pistons it is certainly possible and quite easy in most cases especially on two strokes it s very common to do this on bikes where the cylinder mounting through studs don t prevent the cylinder from being removed with the engine in the frame i did this when i assembled the top end on my indian which was easier yet because it does not have through studs base flange studs and separate head bolts dontchaknow you have to use a little foresight rags duct tape etc to keep clips from falling in clothespins hoseclamps etc to support the cylinder while you re inserting the pins are these called gudgeon pins in the uk if so what s a gudgeon dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	re why mod a zx was zx cylinder running hot in apr exu ericsson se lmcstst noah ericsson se stamos stamos writes in article apr research nj nec com behanna phoenix syl nj nec com chris behanna writes power hmmmmmm well i haven t got it on the dyno or jetted waiting for the snow to melt although i have a factory jet kit advance jets are s the stock is my book says calif uk strange i don t want to fit it unless there is a dyno handy i ve heard that bikes tuned to perfection on the dyno can be a little too close to the edge for street use cold morning bad gas etc apparently they back them of some even for track use you pays your money jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous stamos lmcstst lmc ericsson se zzr ellas ericsson cellular design montreal canada
rec.motorcycles	re for johs dhhalden no davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes in article rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes bozo posts gifs to rec moto he and his postmaster are also gonna get copies of the post in their mailboxes hey it s a great picture you can t fault his taste only his technique chill out and educate instead of getting your panties in a bunch ditto to you dave i m using the picture as the bacground on my sun and i haven t sent a single message to the guy looks like you get to keep the panties joe senner joe rider cactus org austin tx warning do not look into laser with remaining eye posted in a radioactive isotope research lab from r h f
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding in article c ut a i magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes drinking riding it depends on how badly you want to live the faa says eight hours bottle to throttle for pilots but recommends twenty four hours the fars specify a blood alcohol level of as legally drunk i think which is more than twice as strict as dwi minimums is dwi in new york here the limit is bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	re protective gear in article snz morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk tony kidson writes in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca writes in article c wkfs bc eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what protective gear is the most important i would go for the gloves there s not a whole lot that you can do in life if you have no skin on your hands yup ruins your sex life your sex life maybe bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	live free but quietly or die what a great day got back home last night from some fantastic skiing in colorado and put the battery back in the fxstc cleaned the plugs opened up the petcock waited a minute hit the starter and bingo it started up like a charm spent a restless night anticipating the first ride du saison and off i went this morning to get my state inspection done now my bike is stock so far except for hd slash cut pipes and all went well with my new hampshire state inspection meaning all my lights worked ok until the dude produces a decibel meter and tells me about the new nh law about mc noise huh sez i and he has me start her up and rev to about rpm i fail cuz i register db and the max allowed is if i fail with these pipes there are gonna be a whole lotta seriously pissed off bikers round here when they go for inspection but hey its a new experience i have never really felt like a menace to society before i parked dismounted and walked in to my building with a slight swagger to my step and a narrow lidded look i sensed my faculty colleagues unease with my new intimidating status and women s glances seemed to linger just a little longer or perhaps that was my imagination sigh now i need to install my new bub pipes and single fire ignition i wonder how i will do after that russ hughes fxstc dod e love yeah that s the feeling you get when you like something as much as your motorcycle sonny barger as told to me by ed campbell who has an old friend who was there at the time
rec.motorcycles	re insect impacts in article emoryu cc emory edu labrg emory edu ryan montieth gill writes for those who have had problems with small birds what about the large raptor types when they are swooping across the road after smallish prey i had a hawk falcon what ever come within feet of me lucky for him or me for that matter he noticed me and my and pulled up on his her trajectory at the last moment scared the shit outa me nothing like a red tailed hawk in the face talons and all i wonder if riding a nighthawk has anything to do with it hmmmm ryan i got a male mallard duck in the chest once it was like being kicked by my karate instructor no accident but my eyes were tearing so hard and i was wheezing so loudly that it s quite remarkable that i was able to come to a stop with the rubber side up the duck btw lived and seemed quite healthy though we both sat by the roadside and shook our heads for a few minutes the bruise went from my right collar bone all the way down to my belly button regards charles dod rz within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	ec bhp limit vetoed according to bbc radio this morning uk denmark portugal a few others have vetoed a proposal to limit ec sold bikes to bhp the reason is that such a limit is not supported by accident statistics a rare example of governmental wisdom the limit has a five year moratorium on it and specialist manufacturers will be exempt anyway any suspicion that this is a crafty trick to restrict that end of the market in europe to triumph norton who bmw cagiva ducati is the sort of dangerous rubbish which stalls gatt talks you heard it here first bill univ edinburgh replete with hp and a healthy blue exhaust
rec.motorcycles	re speeding ticket from chp in article dmatejkac dmb lh netcom com dmatejka netcom com daniel matejka writes in article pq t k i agate berkeley edu downey homer cs berkeley edu allen b downey writes fight your ticket california edition by david brown st ed berkeley ca nolo press the second edition is out but not in ucb s library good luck let us know how it goes daniel matejka writes the fourth edition is out too but it s probably also not very high on ucb s gotta have that list in article na em mcimail com mcimail com peter nesbitt writes riding to work last week via hwy from suisun to i i was pulled over by a chp black and white by the gas station by jameson canyon road the officer stated it looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going at least or i just said okay and did not agree or disagree to anything he said can you beat this ticket personally i think it s your duty as a citizen to make it as much trouble as possible for them so maybe they ll give up and leave us alone someday soon right on it is every citizen s right and duty to force government accountability anecdotes deleted i ve never tried proving the cop was mistaken i did get to see some other poor biker try it he was mixing up various facts like the maximum acceleration of a cop car and the distance at which the cop had been pacing him and end up demonstrating that he couldn t possibly have been going as fast as the cop had suggested he d brought diagrams and a calculator he was prepared he lost keep in mind cops do this all the time and their word is better than yours also keep in mind that cops will lie in court to get their way don t get me started by asking how i know if you decide to fight you have to be ready for this as well as devise strategy to make the cop s story doubtful in the judge jury s mind maybe though they don t guess how fast bikes are going all the time besides this guy didn t speak english very well and ended up absolutely confounding the judge the cop and everyone else in the room who d been recently criminalized by some twit with a gun and a quota ahem ok i m better now maybe he d have won had his presentation been more polished maybe not he did get applause ed mcfarland ewm mvuzr att com us marshalls corner marshals the best seat in the house to watch motorcycle roadracing no passing on waving yellow
rec.motorcycles	re carrying crutches was re living in article pqhkl g usenet ins cwru edu ai cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes when i got my knee rebuilt i got back on the street bike asap i put the crutches on the rack and the passenger seat and they hung out back a long way just make sure they re tied down tight in front and no problemo hmm sounds like a useful trick it d keep the local cagers at least a crutch length off my tail light which is more than they give me now but do i have to break a leg to use it when i broke my ankle dirt biking i ended up strapping the crutches to the back of the bike riding to the lab it was my right ankle but the bike was a gt and started easily by hand ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx f rg wd beware drainage ditches on firetrails dod
rec.motorcycles	thoughts on a yamaha seca turbo i was wondering if anybody knows anything about a yamaha seca turbo i m considering buying a used seca turbo for canadian us with km on the odo this will be my first bike any comments thanks peter how institute of space and atmospheric studies university of saskatchewan saskatoon saskatchewan canada in how skisas usask ca clapped out ford truck
rec.motorcycles	re its still cold but one thing is certain though its still too cold after about minutes i had to stop and hold my muffler for a while be very careful about this if youre really cold the muffler will feel fine till you leave all the charred skin on it when you peel your hands off i speak from experience you can also do all kindsa americanism of the day damage to your circulation warming hands up on something too hot by far the best fastest and safest way to do it is to shove the hands up the opposit sleeves and stand there like a ming emporer for a while five minutes should do it
rec.motorcycles	re its still cold but first ride of the season one thing is certain though its still too cold after about minutes i had to stop and hold my muffler for a while when i got home after a few hours i kept all my gear on for about a half hour in the house f humidity no wind protection and mph do not mix well hell this is warm i retired my fleece from under the aerostich last month when the temperature got aboce try living a couple of years on the dole so you cant afford any heating you put the gear on in october abd you take it off again in may getting out on the bike seems like a luxury in comparison cos oyur usuallu going somewhere warm its all relative happy cold riding who are you trying to kid its the pain that makes it all worthwhile
rec.motorcycles	re freezing and riding every spec of alertness to keep from getting squished otherwise it s not only dangerous it s unpleasant the same goes for cold and fatigue as i once took a half hour nap at a gas station to insure that i would make it yeah hypothermia is much more detrimemtal to your judgement and reactions than people realise i wish i had the patience to stop when i should one day i ll pay for it if you begin to shiver stop and warm up thoroughly if you leave it till the shivering stops this doesnt mean you re ok again it means you re a danger to yourself and everyone else on the road your brain and body are working about as fast as a tree grows you will not realise this yourself till you hit something the next stage is passing out this usually means falling off
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding so you can t ride the bike but you will drive truck home the judgement and motor skills needed to pilot a moto are not required in a cage this scares the sh t out of me this is a piece of psychology its essential for any long term biker to understand people do not think if i do this will someone else suffer they assess things purely on if i do this will i suffer this is a vital concept in bike cage interaction
rec.motorcycles	re eating and riding was re drinking and riding in article pnakada apr pnakada oracle com paul nakada pnakada oracle com writes what s the feeling about eating and riding i went out riding this weekend and got a little carried away with some pecan pie the whole ride back i felt sluggish i was certainly much more alert on the ride in i m sure others have the same feeling but the strangest thing is that eating is usually the turnaround point of weekend rides from now on a little snack will do i d much rather have a get that full sluggish feeling closer to home paul paul nakada oracle corporation pnakada oracle com dod r c k s to maintain my senses at their sharpest i never eat a full meal within hrs of a ride i ve tried slim fast lite before a ride but found that my lap times around the parliament buildings suffered secs the resultant pound weight loss over the summer just sharpens my bike s handling and i can always look forward to a winter of carbo loading obligatory dave d f it s true they say that money talks when mine spoke it said buy me a drink
rec.motorcycles	re thoughts on a yamaha seca turbo in a previous article howp skyfox says i was wondering if anybody knows anything about a yamaha seca turbo i m considering buying a used seca turbo for canadian us with km on the odo this will be my first bike any comments because of this i cannot in good faith recommend a seca turbo power delivery is too uneven for a novice the official tm dod newbie bike of choice would be more appropriate because the powerband is so wide and delivery is very smooth perfect for the beginner dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re insect impacts i feel childish in article ppvds a seven up east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes how do the helmetless do it um the same way people do it on horseback not as fast and they would probably enjoy eating bugs anyway every bit as fast as a dirtbike in the right terrain and we eat flies thank you who mentioned dirtbikes we re talking highway speeds here if you go mph on your dirtbike then feel free to contribute jeeps you re supposed to keep the windscreen up then why does it go down because it wouldn t be a jeep if it didn t a friend of mine just bought one and it has more warning stickers than those little wheelers i guess that s becuase it s a big wheeler anyway it s written in about ten places that the windshield should remain up at all times and it looks like they ve made it a pain to put it down anyway from what he says to be fair i do admit that it would be a similar matter to drive a windscreenless jeep on the highway as for bikers they may participate in this discussion but they re probably few and far between so i maintain that this topic is of interest primarily to bikers snow skis no bugs and most poeple who go fast wear goggles so do most helmetless motorcyclists notice how ed picked on the more insignificant the lower case part of the two parts of the statement besides around here it is quite rare to see bikers wear goggles on the street it s either full face with shield or open face with either nothing or aviator sunglasses my experience of bicycling with contact lenses and sunglasses says that non wraparound sunglasses do almost nothing to keep the crap out of ones eyes the question still stands how do cruiser riders with no or negligible helmets stand being on the highway at mph on buggy summer evenings helmetless goggleless ok ok fine whatever you say but lets make some attmept to stick to the point i ve been out on the road where i had to stop every half hour to clean my shield there were so many bugs and my jacket would be a blood splattered mess and i d see guys with shorty helmets no goggles long beards and tight t shirts merrily cruising along on bikes with no windscreens lets be really specific this time so that even ed understands does anbody think that splattering bugs with one s face is fun or are there other reasons to do it image laziness to make a point about freedom of bug splattering i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding eww gross in article mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca mike muise writes hr drink for the first drinks hours drink for the next drinks hours drink for the rest in my case it goes down after the first four because the fifth one usually makes me throw up the last two needless to say i don t drink very much anymore as the last time that happened was in the second year of my undergrad i was a silly edu breath and pretty bad breath at that i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article ls v innjml earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes obcountersteer for some reason i ve discovered that pulling on the wrong side of the handlebars rather than pushing on the other wrong side if you get my meaning provides a feeling of greater control for example rather than pushing on the right side to lean right to turn right hi lonny pulling on the left side at least until i get leaned over to the right feels more secure and less counter intuitive maybe i need psychological help i told a newbie friend of mine who was having trouble from the complicated explanations of his rider course to think of using the handlebars to lean not to turn push the right handlebar down or pull left up or whatever to lean right it worked for him he stopped steering with his tuchus i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	riding jacket recommendations my old jacket is about to bite the dust so i m in the market for a new riding jacket i m looking for recommendations for a suitable replacement i would like to buy a full aerostich suit but i can t afford for it right now i m considering two basic options buy the aerostich jacket only dunno how much it costs due to recent price increases but i d imagine over that may be pushing my limit advantages include the fact that i can later add the pants and that it nearly eliminates the need for the jacket portion of a rainsuit buy some kind of leather jacket i like a few of the new hein gericke firstgear line however they may be a bit pricey unless i can work some sort of deal advantages of leather are potentially slightly better protection enhanced pose value we all know how important that is possibly cheaper than upper aerostich requirements for a jacket are that it must fit over a few other layers mainly a sizing thing if leather i d prefer a zip out lining it must have some body armor similar to aerostich elbows shoulders forearms possibly back kidney protection etc a reasonable amount of pocket space would be nice ventilation would be a plus however it must be wearable in cold weather below freezing with layers or perhaps electrics please fire away with suggestions comments etc steve steve andersen dod andersen me udel edu andersen zr ccm udel edu ducati i e yamaha srx life is simply a consequence of the complexities of carbon chemistry
rec.motorcycles	brake rotors cross drilling 
rec.motorcycles	re insect impacts in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes in article ppvds a seven up east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes every bit as fast as a dirtbike in the right terrain and we eat flies thank you who mentioned dirtbikes we re talking highway speeds here if you go mph on your dirtbike then feel free to contribute obviously never rode a good or open class bike i am not paid to have an opinion dr speed suzuki gs g dod
rec.motorcycles	crappy honda cx hi i just have a small question about my bike being a fairly experienced bmw and mz mechanic i just don t know what to think about my honda she was using too much oil for the last km on my trip to daytona bike week this spring and all of a sudden she trailed smoke like hell and was running only on one cylinder i towed the bike home and took it apart but everything looks in perfect working order no cracks in the heads or pistons the cylinder walls look very clean and the wear of pistons and cylinders is not measurable all still within factory specs the only thing i could find however was a slightly bigger ring gap on the right cylinder the one with the problem but it is still way below the wear limit given in the clymer manual for this bike any syggestions what else could cause my problem do i have to hone the cylinder walls make them a little rougher in a criss cross pattern in order to get better breaking in of my new rings won t that increase the wear of my pistons please send comments to sruhl mechanical watstar uwaterloo ca thanks in advance stef stefan ruhl german exchange student don t poke into my privacy
rec.motorcycles	self insured was should liability insurance be required in article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes i get annoyed at insurance hence i m self insured above liability mandating that i play their game is silly if i ve a better game to play and everybody is still financially secure what s involved in getting bonded anyone know if that s an option recognized by nys dmv rod roderick sprattling no job too great no time too small sprattli azores crd ge com with feet to fire and back to wall
rec.motorcycles	bike for sale harley flhtc for sale harley flhtc liberty edition good condition many extras asking located in rhode island peter levine plevine ele uri edu
rec.motorcycles	re goldwing performance in article hpcc corp hp com gharriso hpcc corp hp com graeme harrison writes according to peter egan in the just released cycle world his flhs is a real dog when he pillions his lb wife all that money for a dog that doesn t defecate much but think of the mystique you are buying into for that extra k or more randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod
rec.motorcycles	re tracing license plates of bdi cagers curtis jackson cjackson adobe com wrote the driver had looked over at me casually a couple of times i know he knew i was there oh okay then in that case it was attemped vehicular manslaughter he definitely wanted to kill you all cagers want to kill bikers that s the only explanation that i can think of hesh
rec.motorcycles	for sale husqvarna te for sale model husqvarna te enduro model year engine cc four stroke extras ignition for easy starting suspension by aftershock custom carbon fiber kevlar skid plate quick steering geometry stock epa legal and quiet exhaust system bark busters and hand guards motion pro clutch cable price contact denis concordel e mail denis apldbio com mabell work home i am selling my trusty husky hopefully to buy a husaberg this is a very good dirt bike and has been maintained perfectly i never had any problems with it it s a four stroke valves liquid cooled engine it is heavier than a stroke but still lighter than a honda xr and has a lot better suspension ohlins shock husky fork than the xr for the casual or non competitive rider the engine is much better than any two stroke you can easily lug up hills and blast through trails with minimum gear changes the ignition and the carefully tuned carburation makes this bike very easy to start starts of first kick when cold or hot there is a custom made carbon kevlar light pound wrap around skid plate to protect the engine cases and the water pump the steering angle has been reduced by degree to increase steering quickness this with the suspension tune up by phil douglas of aftershock multiple time isde rider gives it a better ride than most bike plush suspension responsive steering with no head shake so if it is such a good bike why sell it gee i want to buy a husaberg which just a husky but pounds lighter and a tad more
rec.motorcycles	thanks for the speeding ticket advice i d like to thank everyone who took the time to respond to my post about fighting my ticket many of you wrote to say that you have successfully fought and won your case in court others lost due to the cop outright lying to the judge about the circumstances surrounding your ticket while one fellow lost because the judge just didn t appear to be in the mood for such foolishness several of you suggested that i obtain a book called fight your ticket the general theme from those who said go for it was to be prepared i should do as much research as possible go back and review the scene transcribe what happened to tape or paper use any witnesses that may have been around have a list of questions to ask the cop and or the judge and to be positive and assertive i am innocent until proven guilty gulp a few people suggested trying to get my court date changed as this might trip up the arresting officer he may not show up if the date is on his day off or if he feels knows that he doesn t have a chance to win against you one individual stated that an officer could be an expert witness and if he says i was speeding then by damn i was speeding another says that i must have been paced or clocked with a radar gun lots of good suggestions and ideas from you all i ll let you know what happens after the big day peter d nesbitt air traffic controller pnesbitt mcimail com oakland bay tracon
rec.motorcycles	re mail order if you get good service from a shop or they regularly have merchandise in stock you need or they have a knowledgable and or friendly sales staff or if for whatever other reason you would like to do business with them which will in the aggrigate keep them in business and available to fill your future needs but they charge more for an item than another store you can usually purchase the item in the store of your choice and pay the lowest legitimate price being offered elsewhere sounds pretty lame to me let me see if i understand now your friends charge you extra just how much do you usually have to pay for a little friendliness seems like you re being serviced by some friendly sales people robert emmons never hesitate to sacrifice clarity calcshop inc and maintainability to save precious remmons holonet net picoseconds during program execution
rec.motorcycles	bmw r rally bbbbbbbb mm mm ww ww bb bb mm m m mm ww ww b b mm m m mm ww w ww bbbbbbbb mm m m mm ww w w ww bb bb mm m mm ww w w ww bb bb mm mm ww w w ww bbbbbbbb mm mm ww ww press release to all bmw riders subject rally time is here from bmw club of northern california bmw er rally may u s memorial day weekend san francisco bay area th annual bmw er rally sponsored by the bmw club of northern califronia will be held at the quincy california fairgrounds from may included in the pre registration fee at gate are star camping field events and trophies two dinners rally pin door prizes poker run vendor displays fun run english trials and live music playing throughout the weekend plus extras like hot showers tours a concourse d elegance and more this is first time in the er rally s year history that the event is being held in quincy and according to pat gardner rally chairman the er rally s continuing growth and the need for a larger and more complete facility led us to quincy plus we can get there on either of our two most favrite highways highway which goes through the feather river canyon or up from the south via the northernmost part of the gold country s highway day passes will not be available and non bmw rider must be a pre registered guest of a bmw rider the quincy fairgrounds is located on california state highway two miles south of downtown quincy for pre registration forms and additional information write doug hubbard bmw club of northern california norman court fremont ca or telephone us additional notes this is a not for profit event and riders do get their monies worth whether you ve ever attended a rally before or not this is the one to make the only problem has been that there are so many activities that attendees have to choose one over another quincy is a beautiful campground lots of grass and little dust for folks who have been to previous er rallies at mariposa quincy has lots of space all of it flat so room is not a problem there are buildings and such available if there is a change in the weather also the people of quincy are going all out to welcome us registration will begin on thursday of course there are always early arrivals who will show up monday or tuesday the registration fee pays for camping thursday through monday days there will be a tour friday with the main events beginning saturday sunday evening will be the awards ceremony for members of the various clubs club awards will be based on registration declaration of affilitation there will of course be the usual awards for oldest male and female rider betting needed to win and youngest rider they get cheater permits at and greatest distance one up two up and all the usual things
rec.motorcycles	re its still cold but in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes i tend to keep my bedroom window open during the winter and have woken up to find frost on my bedspread but i still get cold below about f usually on the part that sticks out of the bottom of my helmet maybe it s time to get a noj quiet rider cool i conjure up this image of bd in doonesbury so dean how long have you been sleeping with your helmet on rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com triumph bonneville x fear not the evil men do in the name of evil but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good
rec.motorcycles	re recommendation on duc i have a line on a ducati gts model with k on the clock runs very well paint is the bronze brown orange faded out leaks a bit of oil and pops out of st with hard accel the shop will fix trans and oil leak they sold the bike to the and only owner they want and i am thinking more like k any opinions out there please email me thanks it would be a nice stable mate to the beemer then i ll get a jap bike and call myself axis motors tuba irwin i honk therefore i am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r
rec.motorcycles	safe driving prcatices in article apr news columbia edu rdc cunixf cc columbia edu robert d castro writes in article rbpc d n netcom com rbp netcom com bob pasker writes cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes my solution is never to ride next to a car the only thing between you and them is space keep as much as possible take this one step further never dilly dally in that rear of either side of a cage when you pass make it as positive as possible and if you can t pass fully at least make sure that if you attempt it you can make the driver aware of you by at least getting into his area of vision this also applies to merging into another lane after making a pass do it as positively as possible and what i try to do is look in the rear view and then over my shoulder and after i ve done that accelerate into the lane so that you have a speed cushion should you have missed seeing a potential bdi that s trying to do the same thing as you or worse ie he may have been behind you saw you made the pass successfully but you aren t going fast enough to suite him so he tries to go around you on the right ride with four eyes rich rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com triumph bonneville x fear not the evil men do in the name of evil but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good
rec.motorcycles	re april was re faq what is the dod in article hpfcso fc hp com jld hpfcso fc hp com jeff deeney writes in rec motorcycles viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes last year i believe it was jeff deeney posted what i ve since come to recognize as the ultimate april fools posting ever it wasn t particularly nice of him as several people were quite fooled and very worried about him but i can t fault the effectiveness based on numerous inputs most of them unprintable i deemed it time for a kinder gentler april not that i didn t have something really sick and twisted ready to post perhaps next year personally i think jeffy poo was still smarting more from the third degree burns he suffered after april st last year rather than the supposed burns that he suffered in the joke granted i was one of those people that were taken in by it and i was certainly concerned and then pissed at him for pulling such a thing which i made known to him but then again for an april fool joke i would also go on record as saying that it was the best orchestrated one i ve ever seen and it certainly sucked a lot of people into believing it sick twisted who in this group could ever be accused of such a thing i tip my twisted lid to thee jeffy rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com triumph bonneville x fear not the evil men do in the name of evil but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good
rec.motorcycles	observation re helmets grf dropped my shoei rf off the seat of my bike while trying to rock it onto it s centerstand chipped the heck out of the paint on it so i cheerfully spent on a bottle of testor s model paint and repainted the scratches and chips for minutes then while it was drying i realized that i was out of smokes and that my cage is not currently running so i had to take my bike down to the store not wanting to mess up my paint job i said well heck i can just use my old helmet this is your standard el cheapie openface i didn t notice a big difference when i switched to the shoei but switching back was really bad doesn t fit worth a damn too wide in the sides too short front to back with a faceplate it s still bloody windy with the shoei i normally ignore the face shield until i get up to about ish with this one taxiing to the end of the driveway was too smegging much wind the question for the day is re passenger helmets if you don t know for certain who s gonna ride with you like say you meet them at a church meeting yeah that s the ticket what are some guidelines should i just pick up another shoei in my size to have a backup helmet xl or should i maybe get an inexpensive one of a smaller size to accomodate my likely passenger
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses me off in article castle ed ac uk wbg festival ed ac uk w geake writes the banana one isn t imho ultra sticky labels printed with your favourite curse are good even our local hospitals use them instead of wheel clamps putting one about a size on each window of the cage so what s your local hospital s favorite curse blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	flashing anyone hello all on my bike i have hazard lights both front and back turn signals flash since i live in nj and commute to nyc there are a number of tolls one must pay on route just before arriving at a toll booth i switch the hazards on i do thisto warn other motorists that i will be taking longer than the seconds to make the transaction taking gloves off getting money out of coin changer pocket making transaction putting gloves back on takes a little more time than the average cager takes to make the same transaction of paying the toll i also notice that when i do this cagers tend to get the message and usually go to another booth my question is this a good bad thing to do any others tend to do the same just curious o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o rob castro email rdc cunixf cc columbia edu live for today kz ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa rc tm
rec.motorcycles	re stolen aarghhhh in article apr microunity com ericm microunity com eric murray writes watch out often when some scumbag steals the cover that means that they were or are looking to steal the bike in my case i had a faded cover stolen off a bmw r rs that was stashed in an apartment carport and not visible from the street they evidently decided the beemer wasn t worth stealing but did try the next night to steal a honda hurricane parked in the next apartment building a neighbor heard them wheeling it out and called the cops i know this is just setting myself up but this is actually one of the things that is really good about bmw bikes from all accounts i ve heard practically no one steals bmws probably it is similar for moto guzzis and other relative exotics since there isn t a large demand for parts and the bike would be much easier to track down it seems that the most stolen bikes are harleys and cc jap sport bikes jonathan e polito internet jpolito encore com encore computer corp kildaire farm rd cary nc usa voice fax
rec.motorcycles	re bikes with big dogs in article apr galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes in article apr cua edu wendel cua edu writes has anyone ever heard of a rider giving a big dog such as a great dane a ride on the back of his bike my dog would love it if i could ever make it work post of the month actually i ve seen riders carting around a pet dog in a sidecar a great dane on the back though sounds a bit hairy to me yeah i m sure that our lab would love a ride he s the type that sticks his head out car windows but i didn t think that he would enjoy being bungee corded to the gas tank and lbs or squirming beast is a bit much for a backpack ok who s done it i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	v max handling request hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle detailing tip in article apr bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes don t you just hate when the speedo and tach on your bike start to cloud over from all that nasty sunshine the detailing tip of the week is to use rubbing compound moisten a rag apply some rubbing compound and work into the translucent previously transparent material after a few minutes of working on the plastic face the dial or plastic face will be clear once more will not work for glass a couple of other tips make a habit of parking the bike so that instruments are facing away from the sun meguiar s mirror glaze plastic polish plastic cleaner cue canned product plug roise sumax seattleu edu linda roise writes ok for a novice question is there anything that will clean a face shield and also remove abrasions so that one can see through it better what you want are meguiar s mirror glaze plastic polish and plastic cleaner they are very mild abrasives meant to remove scratches from plastic for fine scratches just use the polish for bigger ones start with the cleaner and finish with the polish the stuff is bucks per bottle at most auto or motorcycle parts stores don t choke over the price too much since both bottles will probably last you years the stuff works great on plastic watch crystals and compact discs too blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	hard copy hot pursuit yo did anybody see this run of hard copy i guy on a katana got pulled over by the police i guess for speeding or something but just as the cop was about to step out of the car the dude punches it down an interstate in georgia ang then the cop gives chase now this was an interesting episode because it was all videotaped everything from the dramatic takeoff and mph chase to the sidestreet battle at about mph what happened at the end the guy who is being relentless chased down box the cage with the disco lights slows a couple of times to taunt the cop after blowing a few stop signs and making car jump to the side he goes up a dead end street the kat although not the latest machine is still a high performance machine and he slams on the brakes of couse we all know that cages especially the ones with the disco lights can t stop as fast as our high performance machines so what happens the cage plows into the kat luckily for this dude he was wearing a helmet and was not hurt but dude how crazy can you get yeah we ve all went out and played cat and mouse with our friends but with a cop how crazy can you get it took just one look at a zx who tried this crap to convince me not to try any shit like that although the dude collided with a car head on at mph the kawasaki team colors still looked good just a few scratches like no front end inch long engine and other minor scratches if you guys are out there please slow it down i not being an advocate for the cages especially the ones that make that annoying ass noises but just think the next time you punched it whether you have an all mighty zx or a i can do it ninja just remember a kid could step out at any time peace ride kinda safe warren have suzuki will travel wcd uxa cso uiuc edu what s the big deal about riding one of these i m only going annie robotech
rec.motorcycles	re wanted advice on cb custom purchase in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes my mechanic once commented that the dual range transmission was pure junk one mans opinion i had a friend in pittsburgh who had a cb c with the dual range tranny on it he usually only used the economy range to get an overdrive sixth gear out of it he had miles on it when it was stolen it was recovered shortly after that repaired and for all i know it s still going strong the cb c was a shaft driven overbore version of the cb and was made for exactly one year yep head and base gaskets are very expensive helluva bike a data point chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re tangentially re live free but quietly or die in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes impertinent stuff deleted am i showing my canadian university ness here of does anyone else know what i m talking about i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada there you go again you edu breath poser university ness indeed leave that stuff to us professionals henry prange biker professional edu breath physiology iu sch med blgtn dod bmwmoa gsi ride r gs rx conv cage explorer cage the unifying trait of our species is the relentless pursuit of folly hypocrisy is the only national religion of this country
rec.motorcycles	re boom hubcap attack in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes i was attacked by a rabid hubcap once i was going to work on a yamaha twin a k a the vibrating tank when i heard a wierd noise off to my left i caught a glimpse of something silver headed for my left foot and jerked it up about a nanosecond before my bike was hit hard in the left side when i went to put my foot back on the peg i found that it was not there i pulled into the nearest parking lot and discovered that i had been hit by a wire wheel type hubcap from a large cage this hubcap weighed about pounds the impact had bent the left peg flat against the frame and tweeked the shifter in the process had i not heard the approaching cap i feel certian that i would be sans a portion of my left foot anyone else had this sort of experience not with a hub cap but one of those lumber yard delivery trucks made life interesting when he hit a dip in the road and several sheets of sheetrock and a dozen gallon cans of spackle came off at mph it got real interesting for about seconds or so had to use a wood mallet to get all the dried spackle off me the helmet and the bike when i got home thanks to the bob tail kenworth between me and the lumber truck i had a path to drive through he made with his tires and threw up the corresponding monsoon from those tires as he ran over what ever cans of spackle didn t burst in impact a car in front of me in the right lane hit her brakes did a and nailed a bridge abutment half way through the second the messiest time was in san diego in was on my way back to the apartment in ocean beach on my sportster and had just picked up a shake burger n fries from jack in the box and stuffed em in my foul weather jacket when the milk shake opened up on nimitz blvd at mph nothing like the smell of vanilla milk shake cooking on the engine as it runs down your groin and legs and people waiting in back of you to make the same left turn you are there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re boom hubcap attack in a previous article speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer says i was attacked by a rabid hubcap once i was going to work on a yamaha twin a k a the vibrating tank when i heard a wierd noise off to my left i caught a glimpse of something silver headed for my left foot and jerked it up about a nanosecond before my bike was hit hard in the left side when i went to put my foot back on the peg i found that it was not there i pulled into the nearest parking lot and discovered that i had been hit by a wire wheel type hubcap from a large cage this hubcap weighed about pounds the impact had bent the left peg flat against the frame and tweeked the shifter in the process had i not heard the approaching cap i feel certian that i would be sans a portion of my left foot hmmmm i wondered where that hubcap went dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in a previous article ba ntuvax ntu ac sg says hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling you re kidding right this is flame bait in the extreme v max handling har har har har dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	contact person for boots would anyone out there in dodland be able to help me out in giving me a contact to purchase a pair of military air borne combat boots d in size these boots so i have read here on rec moto are calf height boots that use only velcro for enclosure i have phoned around and nobody seems to carry such an item i admit i have not gone into the deepest bowels of nyc yet for the search but i have made some calls to several of the bigger army navy type stores with no luck anyone out there know of a place that does carry such an item as well as does mail order any help would be appreciated o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o rob castro email rdc cunixf cc columbia edu live for today kz ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa rc tm o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o
rec.motorcycles	re hard copy hot pursuit in a previous article wcd uxa cso uiuc edu daniel warren c says yo did anybody see this run of hard copy no i don t watch that bu sh t the kat although not the latest machine is still a high performance machine and he slams on the brakes of couse we all know that cages especially the ones with the disco lights can t stop as fast as our high performance machines so what happens the cage plows into the kat so does this mean the cop is at fault for rear ending the bike you know following too closely and reckless driving dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article apr ntuvax ntu ac sg ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling i ve ridden one twice it was designed to be a monster in a straight line which it is it has nothing on an fzr in the corners in fact it just didn t handle that well at all in curves but hey that s not what it was designed to do my two cents alan
rec.motorcycles	re rejetting carbs mark kromer on the thu apr gmt wibbled in an article rtaraz bigwpi ramin taraz wrote does the amount of exhaust allowed to leave the engine through the exhaust pipe make that much of a difference the amount of air fuel mixture that a cylender sucks in tries to suck in depends on the speed of the piston when it goes down and the pressure in the cylinder at the end of the exhaust stroke with a poor exhaust system this pressure may be above atmospheric with a pipe that scavenges well this may be substantially below atmospheric this effect will vary with rpm depending on the tune of the pipe some pipes combined with large valve overlap can actually reverse the intake flow and blow mixture out of the carb when outside the pipes effective rev range now my question is which one provides more resistence as far as the engine is conserned resistance that the exhaust provides or the resistance that results from the bike trying to push itself and the rider two completely different things the state of the pipe determines how much power the motor can make the load of the bike determines how much power the motor needs to make v ark fzr pilot zx payload rd mechanic you re welcome well i for one am so very glad that i have fuel injection all those needles and orifices and venturi and pressures it s worse than school human biology reproduction lessons sex always made me feel a bit queasy nick the simple minded biker dod concise oxford tube rider m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re should liability insurance be required in article tcora b gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes in article apr walter bellcore com fist iscp bellcore com richard pierson wrote lets get this no fault stuff straight i lived in nj when nf started my rates went up alot moved to pa and my rates went down alot the nf came to pa and it was a different story if you are sitting in a parking lot having lunch or whatever and someone wacks you guess whose insurance pays for it give up yours bzzzt if it is the other driver s fault your insurance co pays you less deductible then recoups the total cost from the other guy gal s company there s a fancy word for it which escapes me right now and pays you the deductible or you can go to the other guy gal s company right off just takes longer to get your cash as opposed to state farm who cut me a check today on the spot for the damage to my wife s cage the word is subrogation seems to me if you re willing to wait for the money from scumbag s insurance that you save having to pay the deductible however if scumbag s insurance is scum insurance then you may have to pay the deductible to get your insurance co s pack of rabid large fanged lawyers to recover the damages from scum insurance s lawyers sad but true call it job security for lawyers later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re bikes with big dogs in article apr cua edu wendel cua edu writes has anyone ever heard of a rider giving a big dog such as a great dane a ride on the back of his bike my dog would love it if i could ever make it work thanks wendel cua edu on the back might be tricky but here in boulder there is a guy that can always be seen with his golden retriever in the sidecar of course the dog is always wearing wwii style goggles no joke nick coburn dod ama cbr cbr coburnn spot colorado edu
rec.motorcycles	re ducati opinions wanted frankb sad hp com frank ball writes godfrey digiorgi ramarren apple com wrote the ducati model is essentially a reduced displacement which means it weighs the same and is the same size as the with far less power it is produced specifically to meet a vehicle tax restriction in certain markets which makes it commercially viable it s not sold in the us where it is unneeded and unwanted as such it s somewhat large and overweight for its motor it will still handle magnificently it just won t be very fast there are very few other flaws to mention the limited steering lock is the annoyance noted by most testers and the mirrors aren t perfect the ducati model is essentially a reduced displacement which means it weighs the same and is the same size as the with far less nope it s lbs lightrer than the power and less brakes a single disk that is quite impressive with two fingers on the lever much to beth s horror i lifted the rear wheel about in a fine randy mamola impression as such it s somewhat large and overweight for its motor it will still handle magnificently it just won t be very fast there are i have a feeling that it s going to be fast enough that beth will give a few liter bike riders fits in the future very few other flaws to mention the limited steering lock is the the steering locks are adjustable annoyance noted by most testers and the mirrors aren t perfect beth sees fine out of them i see of them filled with black leather concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich cc sportster ol sport for sale dod sr spike the garage rat ama queued for an m fssnoc two jousts and a gather big fun kspt ma bell cool as a rule but sometimes e mail txd able mkt com com h lewis disclaimer com takes no responsibility for opinions preceding this
rec.motorcycles	dot tire date codes i just mailed this i noticed a in long cut in the tread of the rear tire on my vfr the cut is only about as deep as the tread block and looks like it only scratched the rubber at the base but the weird thing is it s way over on the edge where i haven t scuffed the tire in yet my questions are how dangerous is this should i replace the tire right away and if i should since the cut is on the unscuffed portion and the tire only has about mi on it what do you think my chances of getting it replaced under warranty are to the nedod mailing list and jack tavares suggested i check out how old the tire is as one tactic for getting it replaced does anyone have the file on how to read the date codes handy thanks dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re fat boy versus zx new math in article pimfd cre agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes in article c v s mcz ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca jorg klinger writes in apr bnr ca npet bnr ca nick pettefar writes manual velcro on the mar wibbled but is greater than or is greater than or no is the best of all no no no it should be obvious that is the best number by far last year was hot but with the improvements to this year there can be no question hell my dad used to have an old that would beat out today s without breaking a sweat well in the twisties anyway this year s is just too cumbersome for practical use in anything other than repeating decimals remember the good old days when hexadecimals and even binaries were still legal sure they smoked a little blue stuff out the pipes but i had a hex that could slaughter any decimal on the road sigh such nostalgia regards charles dod rz within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding in article c wkbp b w eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow interesting discussion i limit myself to one standard serving of alcohol if i m going to ride and mostly unless the alcohol is something special fine ale good wine or someone else s vsop i usually just don t drink any but then alcohol just isn t really important to me mainly for financial reasons at least one of the magazines claims to follow the aviation guideline of no alcohol whatsoever within hrs of riding a company bike don t remember which mag though it was a few years ago regards charles hicc dod rz within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	re for johs dhhalden no last un wvnvms wvnet edu writes ducati uue quuncd ver by theodore a kaldis begin cut here cut here part mg nh c m av i nyr h v x e afkin apyt c li t this gif was great i have it as the backdrop on my apollo thingy and many people stop by and admire it of course i tell them that i did it myself it s far too much trouble to contact archive sites to get stuff like this so if anybody else has any good gifs please please don t hesitate to post them is the bra thing still going nick the idiot biker dod concise oxford no bras m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re camping question sanjay sinha on the apr gmt wibbled thanks to everyone who posted in my previous quest for camping info another question well not strictly r m stuff i am looking for a thermos flask to keep coffee hot i mean real hot of course it must be the unbreakable type so far what ever metal type i have wasted money on has not matched the vacuum glass type any info appreciated sanjay back in my youth ahem the wiffy and moi purchased a gadget which heated up water from a v source it was for car use but we thought we d try it on my rd b it worked ok apart from one slight problem we had to keep the revs above any lower and the motor would die from lack of electron movement it made for interesting cups of coffee anyhow we would plot routes that contained straights of over three miles so that we had sufficient time to get the water to boiling point this is sometimes difficult in england good luck on your quest nick the biker dod concise oxford m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re why are there no turbocharged motorbikes in north america in article apr skyfox howp skyfox writes i just got to thinking why don t manufacturers still make bikes with turbos etc because they add a lot of expense and complexity and make for a less reliable and less controllable bike as an extreme example the cx turbo cost as much as a mike hailwood replica ducati david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk queen mary westfield college dod guzzi le mans this means the end of the horse drawn zeppelin
rec.motorcycles	re what is it with cats and dogs james bessette jimbes cbnewsj cb att com wrote in article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com ken snyder writes ps i also heard from a dog breeder that the chains of bicycles and motorcycles produced high frequency squeaks that dogs loved to chase ask the breeder why they also chase bmws also cam chain mike mike mitten gnome pd org emory pd org gnome ama dod irony is the spice of life bianchi backstreet suzuki gs gl the revolution will not be televised
rec.motorcycles	re boom hubcap attack from speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer i was attacked by a rabid hubcap once i was going to work on a yamaha twin a k a the vibrating tank when i heard a wierd noise off to my left i caught a glimpse of something silver headed for my left foot and jerked it up about a nanosecond before my bike was hit hard in the left rest deleted anyone else had this sort of experience dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can actually hubcap attacks are fairly common most cagers being too incompetant to reinstall them properly after changing tires or to check them after collisions luckily few are as heavy as the one that got you al moore dod don t forget the immortal swap file read error you lose your mind
rec.motorcycles	re gpz runs like a bitch i tried mailing you but your domain seems not to exist can t even get sinet slb com to admit to knowing about geco anyway here we go in article q kq innjl griffin orpington sgp slb com you wrote subject gpz runs like a bitch anyone have a cure for sub zero running probs on a gpz anything below revs and the bike wants to cut out all the time the recommended cure in the bike mags seems to be to switch off the engine for a minute to thaw the ice but this is obviously not mutch of a cure mine has had the kawasaki heated carb mod but the problem persists i ve covered the rad which makes the bike run warmer and moves the problem down the temp scale a degree or two has anyone tried a dynojet kit on the or getting desperate different carbs or the fuel injection off the gpz have you talked to kawasaki maybe they did another version of the upgrade kit got to be worth a phone call did you do the carb mod or did you buy it secondhand from someone who said that it had been done is that orpington in kent if so have you heard of the ogri mailing list which i run its an email list for bikers in the uk and interested parties available live or as a daily digest let me know if you want to subscribe good luck dave david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk queen mary westfield college dod guzzi le mans this means the end of the horse drawn zeppelin
rec.motorcycles	where can i afford a goldwing mirror searched without luck for a faq here i need a left aspencade mirror and honda wants for it now if this were another piece of chrome to replace the black plastic that wings come so liberally supplied with i might be able to see that silly price but a mirror is a piece of safety equipment the fact that honda clearly places concern for their profits ahead of concern for my safety is enough to convince me that this my third wing will likely be my last in the mean time anyboby have a non ripoff source for a mirror keith smith keith hydra unm edu
rec.motorcycles	latest socal rides southern california ridelist please send me any updates to this ride list remember only street rides that are open to all bikers are posted please inc phone for further info also send me your e mail address if you want mailed copies of this list i suggest calling first to make sure that info is current if you find out further info please let me know i strive for accuracy but cannot be responsible for errors e mail address paulb harley tti com c d coffee donuts mx live music f d food drinks available changes since last posting address at end of posting apr th annual laughlin nv river run rides to the run from points all over socal concerts poker runs parties etc etc this is sponsored by the southern calif harley dealer assoc but all bikes are welcome reservations are only at any socal harley dealer river run hr hotline discount room reservations or concert tix tues sat a noon p apr nd annual racing memorabilia show sale art prints photos lithos models books apr scma route tour apr scma trac a gypsy tour a in santa monica john lane apr tax time run for the money abate pins prizes games f d raffles free if you join s in a v twin city brea canyon rd walnut manny apr rd annual gwta loma linda children s hospital benefit run free c d start hot dogs etc finish s in a skip fordyce motors indiana ave riverside apr mma state overnighter frazier park or apr nd yuma prison run mailin gate camping or apr paso robles clean sober run paso robles fairgrounds apr shamrock s rd annual scenic byways tour starts routes s in a simi valley honda l a ave or cycles parts w baseline san bernadino picnic bbq lake hughes apr mra chap e poker run a american legion south d st peris steve hill may ama grand nat l dirt track series race pomona fairplex or may kpfk s fm centerstand radio show and the car show will broadcast live from autobooks etc w magnolia av burbank carshow starts noonb centerstand pm may abate poker run east end of bucklin park imperial valley s in a includes food entertainment barbara may pmc th annual greenhorn tour or may song dog ranch spring rally overnight camping at this famousmotorcycle campground mx all you can eat or drink bbq dinner sunday bkfst person reserve by april song dog ranch rt new cuyama n of ojai keep trying this number may bsa owner s club spring ride castaic landing may album release celebration helmet laws suck by billy gordon the blue rockers la vida hot springs to n to lambert east miles on left special guests mx raffle may st annual spring round up rodeo abate many bike games f d pins raffle s in starts a games noon ea couple free if you join robbies restaurant hwy btwn perris lake elsinore george or susan allen or melanie may mc swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa may la cnty mc swap meet may christian m c assn socal rally first assembly of god church nisqually rd victorville bob quintard may mother s with the most may th annual mc awareness day abate p american legion hall gardena bl crnr normandie gardena mx vendors raffles games etc free w pin f d doc or carol or dieter may blue knights th annual benefit ride starts cycle parts west san diego harold crosby may run for the wall la to dc lv a or a from ta truck stop where i i meet in ontario camping motels available at each night s stop rides ends up at the vietnam veterans memorial wall in washington dc bikes are expected to meet there call rod coffey alt info send p h to john anderson deer creek way paso robles ca or call him may long beach mc parts exchange lb veterans memorial stadium may us mc jamboree tulare cnty fairgnds tulare ride in mc show benefit poker run sun mx raffles games starts noon on friday under free for under may blazing saddles tour scma may ariel owners club annual event greenfield ave la chuck walton jun fun in the sun ride mma bakersfield jun class act tour jun silver eagles run palomar san diego jun ventura swap show by the shop ventura fairgnds jun rd annual summer solstice poker run pig feed abate ea couple free if you join pig roast games raffles mx swimming pins s in a swallows inn i ortega hwy san juan capistrano earl rick jun mma s bike fest mariposa fairgrounds hwy to hwy e go miles mx camping available trade show f d games advance gate info tix jun hope house benefit run scma jul bike show accessories unltd jul abate christmas in july jul beach ride to benefit the exceptional children s foundation jul abate old timers poker run jul th annual unicoastal ride and joust starts all over the west coast and goes to pine glen campground near mammoth lakes for a or day weekend of fun with the usenet personalities your fond of flaming to get on the mail list contact joust request harley tti com jul iron horse poker run jul nd annual national ride to work day jul quaff m c mt palomar th annual overnighter la jolla campgrounds jul th annual summer food run abate jul mc swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa aug accessories unltd ride aug hot august nights poker run aug tour scma area b aug song dog ranch summer rally overnight camping at this famous motorcycle campground classical mx all you can eat or drink bbq dinner sunday bkfst person reserve by aug song dog ranch rt new cuyama n of ojai keep trying this number aug vets benefit run trac a aug mma chicken roast camarillo park sep th annual flags classic juarez mexico to southern alberta canada person received by frank weed or try sep abate s golden state rendezvous a fri noon mon mid state fairgrounds paso robles sep iron horse rocket run sep black gold poker run taft mc sep redwood run sep bonanza tour shamrocks oct mc swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa oct song dog ranch fall rally overnight camping at this famous motorcycle campground mx all you can eat or drink bbq dinner sunday bkfst person reserve by oct song dog ranch rt new cuyama n of ojai keep trying this number oct scma grand tour oct easyriders motorcycle rodeo antelope valley fairgrounds hwy n to ave i exit right lancaster oct nd annual griffith park sidecar rally mineral springs area of the park doug bingham oct mra chap e ride nov love ride to benefit the muscular dystrophy assoc sponsored by glendale h d san fernando rd glendale nov toy key run scma area b nov mc awareness day abate nov accessories unlimited posse ride dec mc swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa dec hathaway children s center toy run ongoing events notices hd swap meet show santa fe springs drive in alondra blvd p rd thurs ea mo fee note that in april it was moved to free seminars every saturday luftmeister inc long beach tune in centerstand a radio program for motorcyclists every saturday from pm on kpfk fm parents w out partners mc club meets nd sat a at cocos brea rd colina road in diamondbar a new mc club for women only is forming diamonds and pearls marc motorcycling amateur radio club meets a nd sat denny s e th st santa ana net p weds on info ray or bonnie addresses follows camp from or fwy go north on azusa ave hwy to east fork rd go miles east to camp hint look for bridge accessories unlimited lyons ave at i newhall cycle parts west beach blvd westminister
rec.motorcycles	bmwmoa controversy in article rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes vech ra msstate edu craig a vechorik writes good ol boys that have been there too long while i agree with you that the current board is garbage voting you in would simply be trading one form of trash for another do the opponents of your selections get equal time yo joe why don t you post what you really think if there are any rational bmwmoa folks left out there may the rest of us please have a brief summary of the current state of affairs in your esteemed organization together with an historical outline of how you got to the above contretemps points will be deducted for shouting or bulging veins in the temple area pete ahrens
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses me off in article lsp mginnud cash cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes however this has nothing to do with motorcycling unless you consider the vw a bike however this has nothing to do with motorcycling unless you consider the amazona a bike keith hanlan keithh bnr ca bell northern research ottawa canada
rec.motorcycles	re bmw battery keith hanlan on the wed apr gmt wibbled in article apr ra msstate edu vech ra msstate edu craig a vechorik writes if i remember correctly the reason that bmw s come with those expensive and relatively worthless short lived varda batteries is cause bmw owns a controling interest in that battery manufacturer what s wrong with the bmw battery i ve never had problems and i know numerous people that are still using the original battery in there year old beemers kay my k rs still has her original battery in she s ok nick the sufficiently well charged biker dod concise oxford m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re why are there no turbocharged motorbikes in north america in article c j n hy dcs qmw ac uk davide dcs qmw ac uk dave edmondson writes as an extreme example the cx turbo cost as much as a mike hailwood replica ducati so if i can scrounge up a good looking cx turbo will someone trade me an mhr duc for it jeff earls jearls tekig pen tek com dod kottg kotspt wmtc ama fj millennium falcon squid factor klr thumpy hit the button chewie han solo there ain t nothin like a mph sweeper in the idaho rockies me
rec.motorcycles	re uh der whassa deltabox in article unisql uucp ray unisql uucp ray shea writes can someone tell me what a deltabox frame is and what relation that has if any to the frame on my hawk gt that way next time some guy comes up to me in some parking lot and sez hey dude nice bike is that a deltabox frame on there i can say something besides duh er huh deltabox tm is a registered trademark of yamaha used to describe their aluminum perimeter frame design used on the fzr and fzr in cross section it has a five sided appearance so it probably really should be called a pentabox dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle security i saw his bike parked in front of a bar a few weeks later without the dog and i wandered in to find out what had happened he said somebody stole m damn dog they left the harley behind dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	tickets advice is worth what you paid i can t think of another subject that generates as much contradictory advice as traffic laws and their enforcement everybody s got an opinion and is dead certain they are right yet acurate information is extremely difficult to come by the dmv doesn t know cops don t know your traffic school instructor doesn t know the vehicle code only tells part of the story judges choose to interpret the laws in a wide variety of ways and the public at large i seldom hear any advice that doesn t disagree with something i ve experienced if you don t believe me i suggest you get a copy of the vehicle code study it and then sit in on a day or two of court and see what really happens read fight your ticket too but don t miss the little section at the end where it says your chances are lousy and you re basically screwed as you may have guessed i m pretty down on the system here in california i ve carefully prepared for court bringing witnesses and revealing serious holes in the officer s story only to be slapped with the maximum allowable fine plus assessments of over the message clear that the judge does not appreciate john q public trying his own cases so here s my advice when you find yourself with a ticket take traffic school if you can if it s a serious matter get a lawyer a lawyer can present the exact same case as you the difference is the sentence paul thompson apple computer
rec.motorcycles	re bike sold over net miles away in article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com ken snyder writes any other bikes sold long distances out there i d love to hear about it i bought my vfr from a guy in san jose via the net that s miles according to my odometer mark andy living in pittsburgh bought his rz from a dude in massachusetts or was it connecticut axel
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes the question for the day is re passenger helmets if you don t know for certain who s gonna ride with you like say you meet them at a church meeting yeah that s the ticket what are some guidelines should i just pick up another shoei in my size to have a backup helmet xl or should i maybe get an inexpensive one of a smaller size to accomodate my likely passenger if your primary concern is protecting the passenger in the event of a crash have him or her fitted for a helmet that is their size if your primary concern is complying with stupid helmet laws carry a real big spare you can put a big or small head in a big helmet but not in a small one ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re dot tire date codes in rec motorcycles cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes to the nedod mailing list and jack tavares suggested i check out how old the tire is as one tactic for getting it replaced does anyone have the file on how to read the date codes handy it s quite simple the code is the week and year of manufacture rich sturges h nswc carderock division w i speak for no one else and listen to the same
rec.motorcycles	re bike sold over net miles away in article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com ken snyder writes any other bikes sold long distances out there i d love to hear about it i bought my moto guzzi from a univ of va grad student in charlottesville last spring mark cervi cervi oasys dt navy mil w dod mgnoc moto guzzi sp ii what kinda bikes that a moto guzzi what s that its italian mark cervi carderockdiv nswc code annapolis md cervi oasys dt navy mil w
rec.motorcycles	re bikes and contacts in article apr skcla monsanto com mpmena skcla monsanto com writes michael manning must be that blockhead of yours the gargoyles are the only thing that work for me michael menard p s when you showin up at highland house we ll compare sunglasses let s see how the weather is saturday or sunday it sucks today what time is good you re welcome to give any of the ones i have a try as for the gargoyles if you want mine you can have em i think the bridge of my nose holds them too far from my face same deal for the two of my friends who tried them for people who use them with a full face helmet all bets are off sorry if they fit you well and took my complaint personally yes the oakleys are much more desirable squid attire also the gargoyles aren t that ugly even in my opinion or i wouldn t have tried them michael manning mmanning icomsim com nextmail accepted flstf fatboy ducati ss
rec.motorcycles	re bikes contacts lenses radial keratotomy in article c fi h ew rice edu jcn rice edu writes i was going to try radial keratotomy but they want over per eye that s a lot of contact lenses and sunglasses and a lot of money if they make one tiny mistake o jeff nichols also if they don t get it exactly right or your eyes change again contacts to correct for it are out of the question this is due to the strange conical shape your cornea takes after the surgery michael manning mmanning icomsim com nextmail accepted flstf fatboy ducati ss
rec.motorcycles	re ducati opinions wanted in article qhm mbs news ysu edu albion h bowers ak yfn ysu edu writes oh yeah at mph in the quarter is such a slug come on when was the last time you used your s max power peak i think maybe you should ride one first before passing judgement there is a lot more than just maximum acceleration i really didn t mean to imply that my ninja was any better than a duc i have to talked to a few duc owners ss owners in particular who say that the power is something less than overwhelming that said i would love to have a ss i guess i should have been a bit more specific if you have something that weighs that same as the go for the extra cubes i think that fact that i own a gtv shows that i don t care about maximum power it s no slug though to the exclusion of everything else the note and the handling are more important to me i just bought a ninja because i couldn t afford a duc didn t mean to ruffle any feathers i ll probably be getting a ss next year mark mark s burnham markb wc novell com ama dod alfa romeo gtv ninja
rec.motorcycles	re rejetting carbs in article jburney hydra nodc noaa gov jburney hydra nodc noaa gov jeff burney writes if we are only talking about stroke i think i can understand exhaust pulse affect in a stroke the intake valve is closed on the exhaust stroke and the gas is pushed out by the cyclinder i guess there is some gas compression that may affect the amount pushed out but the limiting factor seems to be the header pipe and not the canister meaning would gases so far down the line the canister really have an effect on the exhaust stroke do the gases really compress that much for discussion purposes i will ignore dynamic effects like pulses in the exhaust pipe and try to paint a useful mental picture unless an engine is supercharged the pressure available to force air into the intake tract is atmospheric at the time the intake valve is opened the pressure differential available to move air is only the difference between the combustion chamber pressure left over after the exhaust stroke and atmospheric as the piston decends on the intake stroke combustion chamber pressure is decreased allowing atmospheric pressure to move more air into the intake tract at no time does the pressure ever become negative or even approach a good vacuum at the time of the exhaust valve closing the pressure in the combustion chamber is essentially the pressure of the exhaust system up to the first major flow restriction the muffler note that the volume of gas that must flow through the exhaust is much larger than the volume that must flow through the intake because of the temperature difference and the products of combustion in the last years the japanese manufacturers have started paying attention to exhaust and intake tuning in pursuit of almighty horsepower at this point in time on high performance bikes substitution of an aftermarket free flow air filter will have almost zero affect on performance because the stock intake system flows very well anyway substitution of an aftermarket exhaust system will make very little difference unless in general the new exhaust system is much louder than the stocker on older bikes exhaust back pressure was the dominating factor if free flowing air filters were substituted very little difference was noted unless a free flowing exhaust system was installed as well in general an engine can be visualized as an air pump at any given rpm anything that will cause the engine to pump more air be it on the intake or exhaust side will cause it to produce more horsepower pumping more air will require recalibration rejetting of the carburetor dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding personally i follow the no alcohol rule when i m on a bike my view is that you have to be in such a high degree of control that any alcohol could be potentially hazardous to my bike if i get hurt it s my own fault but i don t want to wreck my katana i developed this philosophy from an impromptu experiment i had one beer at in the evening and had volleyball practice at i wasn t even close to leagle intoxication but i couldn t perform even the most basic things until this made me think about how i viewed alcohol and intoxication you may seem fine but your reactions may be affected such that you ll be unable to recover from hitting a rock or even just a gust of wind i greatly enjoy social drinking but for me it just doesn t mix with riding max enjoyment eric
rec.motorcycles	got my bike was wanted advice on cb c purchase thanks to all of you who gave advice on the cb custom as recommended i had the bike compression tested compression was a little low but very even across the four cylinders psi they said that it was tested a little cold so that would explain the low numbers around does this sound right otherwise the bike looked great no signs of road rash and no rust this bike looks great it is now in the shop getting tuned and new tires i am opting for the metzler me and me tires thanks to those who posted this other thread this bike is big compared to my other bikes sure is alot harder to load on a trailer than the kdx was i should be road legal tomorrow i am ignoring the afforementioned concerns about the transmission and taking my chances being a reletively new reader i am quite impressed with all the usefull info available on this newsgroup i would ask how to get my own dod number but i ll probably be too busy riding jamie w burnside o o jburnside ll mit edu c
rec.motorcycles	what about no fault insurance companies sure seem to go for no fault coverage since the majority of accidents are the cagers fault doesn t this imply that we would have to pay much higher rates under a no fault system with a cars only system it seems to make sense on the surface take the legal costs out of the system but it looks like motorcyclists would get screwed michael chuck bain meb icdfs ca boeing com semi loud pipes save lives
rec.motorcycles	re rejetting carbs now i am jumping into the middle of this thread so i may not know what y all been talking about but i have a few comments in rec motorcycles davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes unless an engine is supercharged the pressure available to force air into the intake tract is atmospheric at the time the intake valve is opened the pressure differential available to move air is only the difference between the combustion chamber pressure left over after the exhaust stroke and atmospheric as the piston decends on the intake stroke combustion chamber pressure is decreased allowing atmospheric pressure to move more air into the intake tract at no time does the pressure ever become negative or even approach a good vacuum there are a number of other factors that are very important the three biggest being air velocity air momentum and shock waves velocity stacks have been used for years and are now being used inside of stock airboxes on a number of bikes at a tuned engine rpm the stacks can greatly increase the speed and thus momentum of the air rushing in air momentum is critical in getting good air intake the momentum of the air stack outside the combustion chamber will force its way inside long after the piston has begun its compressive up stroke shock waves are used to induce air intake and to prevent fresh air from escaping out the exzhaust ports shock waves are the product of expansion chambers or any other means of presenting a wall opening or closing to the air in motion beyond this i am lost in the mystery of how they design for shock waves rich sturges h nswc carderock division w i speak for no one else and listen to the same
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes grf dropped my shoei rf off the seat of my bike while trying to rock it onto it s centerstand chipped the heck out of the paint on it so i cheerfully spent on a bottle of testor s model paint and repainted the scratches and chips for minutes the question for the day is re passenger helmets if you don t know for certain who s gonna ride with you like say you meet them at a church meeting yeah that s the ticket what are some guidelines should i just pick up another shoei in my size to have a backup helmet xl or should i maybe get an inexpensive one of a smaller size to accomodate my likely passenger my rule of thumb is don t give rides to people that wear a bigger helmet than you unless your taste runs that way or they are family friends gee reminds me of a dancer in hull just over the river from ottowa that i saw a few years ago for her i would a bought a bigger helmet or even her own bike or anything else she wanted there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses me off in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article castle ed ac uk wbg festival ed ac uk w geake writes the banana one isn t imho ultra sticky labels printed with your favourite curse are good even our local hospitals use them instead of wheel clamps putting one about a size on each window of the cage so what s your local hospital s favorite curse may your skin stick to a frozen bed pan may your apple juice be mistakenly drawn from the urinalisys lab there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re contact person for boots in article apr news columbia edu rdc cunixf cc columbia edu robert d castro writes would anyone out there in dodland be able to help me out in giving me a contact to purchase a pair of military air borne combat boots d in size these boots so i have read here on rec moto are calf height boots that use only velcro for enclosure i have phoned around and nobody seems to carry such an item i admit i have not gone into the deepest bowels of nyc yet for the search but i have made some calls to several of the bigger army navy type stores with no luck anyone out there know of a place that does carry such an item as well as does mail order any help would be appreciated currently there are no velcro jump boots as issue in the military there are two other kinds one is made my cochran and sell for in either the clothing sales store or us cavalry price match at the cav store the second co is also sold but somewhat cheaper in design actually they don t care what you wear as long is they are eyelets high there is another boot called a tankers boot this has similar construction to a wellington boot except for the boot shape and has straps that wrap around for tightness nice boots there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re should liability insurance be required if i have one thing to say about no fault it would be it isn t there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle security in article tekgen bv tek com davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes i saw his bike parked in front of a bar a few weeks later without the dog and i wandered in to find out what had happened he said somebody stole m damn dog they left the harley behind animal rights people have been know to do that to other bike riding dogs cats and racoons there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re should i buy a vrf mark n bricker mnb cs rit edu wrote i am in the market for a bike and have recently found a honda vrf at a dealership the bike has about miles and is around it has had two previous owners both employees of the dealership who i have been told took very good care of the bike i have two questions is this too many miles for a bike i know this would not be many miles for a car but i am unfamiliar with the life span of bikes is this a decent price i am also unfamilar with prices for used bikes is there a blue book for bikes like there is for cars thanks for any advice you can give mark mark k is not too many miles on a vfr i sold my well maintained vfr with k miles on it and the engine was in mint condition all that the bike needed was steering head bearings and fork bushings and seals the guy who bought it had a mechanic pull the valve covers to look at the top end do a compression check etc he confirmed it was mint as for price seems a little steep i bought my with k miles on it a year ago and in absolutely cherry condition for there is a bluebook ask your bank or credit union for the going price i ve seen a couple of ads for vfr s in the dollar range they all said low miles mint condition but i didn t actually go look at them a vfr is a very sweet bike and will last you forever if you maintain it at all one thing to look for btw is a soft front end if my vfr is any indication at k miles the fork springs were totally shot progressive springs fixed it right up good luck k e n ken snyder ms loc un hewlett packard co lsid lake stevens instrument div soper hill road gte tn everett wa un ix kens lsid hp com
rec.motorcycles	re should i buy a vrf mark n bricker mnb cs rit edu wrote i am in the market for a bike and have recently found a honda vrf at a dealership the bike has about miles and is around it has had two previous owners both employees of the dealership who i have been told took very good care of the bike i have two questions is this too many miles for a bike i know this would not be many miles for a car but i am unfamiliar with the life span of bikes is this a decent price i am also unfamilar with prices for used bikes is there a blue book for bikes like there is for cars thanks for any advice you can give mark k e n ken snyder ms loc un hewlett packard co lsid lake stevens instrument div soper hill road gte tn everett wa un ix kens lsid hp com
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses me off reading all you folks things to do to illegally parked cars made me wonder who s going to carry cinder blocks on a bike or is ready to do serious damage key carvings etc to a cage then i had an idea chain lube isn t just for chain s anymore it seems more reasonable to me no permanent damage but lots of work to get off don t ask me how i know use it anywhere the windshield the door handles in the keyhole etc what a nasty mood i m in it s raining again k e n ken snyder ms loc un hewlett packard co lsid lake stevens instrument div soper hill road gte tn everett wa un ix kens lsid hp com
rec.motorcycles	re bikes vs horses was re insect impacts f in a previous article npet bnr ca nick pettefar says jonathan e quist on the thu apr gmt wibbled in article txd able mkt com com txd esd com com tom dietrich writes in a previous article egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher says lots of things none of which are quoted here the nice thing about horses though is that if they break down in the middle of nowhere you can eat them and they re rather tasty fuel s a bit cheaper too per gallon bushel perhaps unfortunately they eat the same amount every day no matter how much you ride them and if you don t fuel them they die on an annual basis i spend much less on bike stuff than amy the wonder wife does on horse stuff she has two horses i ve got umm lesseee bikes i ride constantly she rides four or five times a week even if you count insurance and the cost of the garage i built i m getting off cheaper than she is and having more fun imho go fast take chances mike s
rec.motorcycles	re more dod paraphernali js from stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford js in article pppnrinnitg cronkite central sun com js doc webrider central sun com steve bunis wrote js js how about a decal of thicker vinyl js how about a geeky temporary tatoo i mean why should the js rubs be exempt from a little razzing that s sick i want you make em up i promise to order i wannabe badtothebone the cheesy live to ride eagles are sitting on my shelf waiting for the big ride down the coast it now looks like we may hit points farther south than expected how do i get in contact with bay area denizens replies to address below me n charlie will be along in early or mid may seriously i like the idea of temporary geekys geekies geekae geekii it fits the whole dod image it sounds bad but it s really worse ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live js js john stafford minnesota state university winona js all standard disclaimers apply slmr a if lucas built weapons wars wouldn t start either computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle courier s jl ns subject re motorcycle courier summer job i d like to thank everyone who replied i will probably start looking in earnest after may when i return from my trip down the pacific coast the geographical feature not the bike ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live slmr a have bike will travel quickly very quickly computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in article qegpf d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes i know it sounds ludicrous for a biker to advocate restrictions on biking in a biking forum don t you mean former motorcyclist roid
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article apr megatek com randy megatek com randy davis writes the rider pilot i m happy i ve had such an effect on your choice of words seth t was a time when i could get a respectable response with a posting like that randy s post doesn t count cause he saw the dearth of responses and didn t want me to feel ignored thanks randy i was curious about this dod thing how do i get a number roid
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article oxz b w w cellar org craig cellar org saint craig writes no anyone who is a true rider with the real riding attitude will offer a wave weather they are on a harley or on a honda or some other bike inless they have a serious case of my bike is better than your and you re too low to be acknowleged this you ll find is the case with most of the harley riders out here where i am however i still give them a wave and ride secure in the knowlege that i m a better persob than they are huh roid
rec.motorcycles	re recommendation for a front tire in article c hrxj ace unix amherst edu nrmendel unix amherst edu nathaniel m endell writes ken orr orr epcot spdc ti com wrote in article c g hv cs unix amherst edu nrmendel unix amherst edu nathaniel mendell writes steve mansfield smm rodan uu net wrote yes my front tire is all but dead it has minimal tread left so it s time for a new one any recommendations on a good tire in front i m riding on an almost brand new me a in back steve mansfield the system we ve learned says we re equal under la w smm uunet uu net but the streets are reality the weak and poor will fall suzuki gs e let s tip the power balance and tear down the crown dod educate the masses we ll burn the white house down queensryche speak the word the best thing is to match front and back no given that the a perfect is such a good tire just go with that one the me a perfect is a rear the match for the front is the me laser dod k o ama orr epcot spdc ti com yeah what he said nathaniel zx dod am yes you definitely need a front tire on a motorcycle grin
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks in article qmvutinn he lynx unm edu galway chtm eece unm edu denis mckeon writes in heavy traffic i slow down a bit mostly so i have more buffer zone in front to balance the minimal buffer behind but i also often find that the jerk behind will notice traffic moving faster in other lanes switch into one of them and pass me which is fine because then i can keep a better eye on the jerk from behind while looking ahead rather than from in front while splitting my attention between ahead and the mirrors this is pretty damned complicated i just make a back off motion with my hand arm and the second or third time even the most braindead cager backs off if they don t back off then i find a way to get the hell out of there the cager is either psychotic drunk or just a complete asshole in any case i don t want to be anywhere near and especially not in front curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re choking ninja problem in article apr kuhub cc ukans edu starr kuhub cc ukans edu writes i need help with my zx a i put supertrapp slip on s on it and had the carbs re jetted to match a set of k n filters that replaced the stock airbox now i have a huge flat spot in the carburation at about thousand rpm in most any gear this is especially frustrating on the highway the bike likes to cruise at about mph which happens to be rpm in sixth gear i ve had it tuned and this doesn t seem to help i am thinking about new carbs or the injection system from a gpz does anyone have any suggestions for a fix besides restoring it to stock starr kuhub ukans cc edu the brain dead ted nugent it sound like to me that your carbs are not jetted properly if you did it yourself take it to a shop and get it done right if a shop did it get your money back and go to another shop bennett leve v sabre i m drowning throw orlando fl xl me a bagel hoggle hoggle bleve peora sdc ccur com
rec.motorcycles	airhorns on an fj review for those of you who are thinking about fiamms you might also want to think about airhorns i just installed a set of bosch air horns ordered from dennis kirk pg of the latest catalog on my fj they are rated at db at meters i installed them using gage wire from the battery to the relay to the compressor to ground my stock horn connectors fit the relay pins just fine i soldered the connections to the relay and compressor and used a crimp type battery connector and an inline amp fuse connector from napa i installed the compressor just forward of the fuse box in the front fairing by tie wrapping between the steering head frame and the black steel tube frame used to support the front fairing you have to remove the front fairing to do this but it fits outside of the frame but inside the fairing on the two vertical supports just in front of the fuses depending how tight your fairing follows the frame you should be able to fit it somewhere in the fairing the compressor is about in diameter and about long the relay mounted on the front of the steering head frame it is small so there should be plenty of good places for it i found a perfect place for the horns that required only tie wraps to mount the horns fit inside the front fairing frame and stick out on either side just in front of the air scoops but behind the turn signals the back of the horns point back towards the center of the bike and come real close to where the gas tank connects to the front part of the frame there is just enough room to the outside to allow full lock to lock clearance and there are nice cut outs in the frame for the back of the horn to go into the short horn is even with the fairing and the long one sticks out about an inch or so but it is really not that noticable unless you look closely they end up pointing down slightly and maybe degrees from straight ahead perfect for those cagers trying to change lanes into you if you have any other questions about the mounting email and i can try to explain better if your bike is not red then you may want to paint them first how do they work you ask they are very very very loud they sound more like a european sports car than a truck but a vast improvement over stock i have used them at least daily since installing them and the amp fuse has not blown yet although the duration of the horn blasts have been short i ve repeatedly scared the shit out of my friends with them even though they know that i have the horns they still jump they are perfect for keeping the pedestrians on the sidewalk the bottom line is they work are loud enough to cause pain and suffering to those stupid lane changing cages as well as take a few years off their lives and are relatively easy to install on the fj ymmv tjk fj with get out of my way horns that looks like a suit you d fight a fire in comment about the aerostich
rec.motorcycles	buying advice needed i am looking for advice on buying a susuki gs e does anyone out there know about any inherent flaws the bike may have or problems i should look for what about insurance rates is this bike blacklisted also as a person who has never ridden a motorcycle yet is buying a to start off with am i crazy i have been told by some people to start out small and by others that i am lage enough to handle an right off from the start pounds because some others might be a tad bit small oh yeah one more question anybody in the chicago area know of any good instruction schools or programs where i could get aquanted before i just go buy one and kill myself getting it home thanks brian p s please email me direcly because i do not get much of a chance to read your group thanks again
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes we all seem to be in agreement that there are two explanations for why one can use the handlebars to lean a moving motorcycle the question is is one of the effect dominant and which one is it the idea would be to design an experiment which would seaprate the two characteristics and see which effect produces a similar result to the one with which those of us who have bikes are familiar as you point out the experiments would be difficult but we know enough about the physics of the situation to do some calculations there are in fact three effects contributing to leaning the bike over to begin a turn gyro effect causing a torque which twists the bike over contact patch having shifted to one side causing bike to fall over contact patch being accelerated to the side causing a torque which twists the bike over take an average bike rider average bike wheel and at speeds of and mph say calculate how much twist of the bars would be needed to produce say degrees of lean in say seconds by each effect alone my guess is that at slow speeds is dominant and at high speeds is dominant and at all speeds contributes not far off bugger all relatively speaking by the way a similar problem is this how does a runner who wants to run round a corner get leaned into the corner fast is there a running group where we could start counter footing arguments and have them all falling over as they tried to work out how they go round corners chris malcolm cam uk ac ed aifh department of artificial intelligence edinburgh university forrest hill edinburgh eh ql uk dod
rec.motorcycles	re kawasaki ae for sale included in thas sale is a cover the cover is not sold separately the trailer is not being sold pat
rec.motorcycles	info on sport cruisers i m looking for a sport cruiser factory installed fairings full half hard saddle bags cc and above and all that and still has that sporty look i particularly like the r rs and k rt or s or any of the k series bmw bikes i was wondering if there are any other comparable type bikes being produced by companies other than bmw thanks for the info jae jae cmu edu
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes better still reverse this sequence then hit the bugger under accelleration to stabilise yourself i hate things that attack me if the dog thinks you have run away it has established dominance over these funny noisy sheep things and will attack every bike that comes along for the fun of it if you can hurt the bugger it learns that it is below bikes in the peck order and you may have saved the life of a future biker whose evasive action to avoid the dog might otherwise put him under a truck never avoid a dog for the dog s sake only you re own i hate to admit this but there does seem to be some sort of twisted logic to this approach it s the bikers against the world and the dogs are just another worthless adversary so remember to wear at least calf height leather boots in case the dog gets lucky and sinks his teeth into your attacking foot and go for the gusto if that dog doesn t retreat from the street with his tail between his legs next time you see it then you really haven t done your bit for all your fellow bikers this also applies in cages sorry i can t go this far a dog against and armored cage just doesn t seem like a fair fight if the dog is out of control it is a menace to all road users and no compunction should be felt if ensuring your safety means the destruction of it s after all it is forcing the game not you after all it is a dog eat dog world dave
rec.motorcycles	more moa stuff like the ra ok so we ve got a hotly contested bmwoa election and some inept leadership my question is the history of the bmw organization that lead to the formation of the bmwra was there something going on in the oa years ago that precipitated the formation of two competing owner s groups just to stave off flames i m a relatively new member of both groups and besides a difference in the slickness of the magazines it seems the major difference is that the ra guys seem to have more fun art art campbell artc world std com compuserve com dod real bmws have just two wheels in my opinion there s nothing in this world beats a vincent and a redheaded girl richard thompson
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes nick pettefar npet bnr ca wrote english cars rover reliant morgan bristol rolls royce etc talk about harleys using old technology these morgan people really like to use old technology i think their suspension design hasn t changed since they went from wheels to back in the s and it s not like they had reached the pinnacle of good design at that point either well if you want to pick on morgan why not attack its ash wood frame or its hand bent metal skin just try and get a replacement i thought the kingpost suspension was one of the mog s better features karen black
rec.motorcycles	dogs i m a biker and a dog lover first and foremost i want to mention some common sense if it s a choice between injuring killing a dog or getting yourself injured killed there is only one rational decision only the most insane animal rights kook would put the dog first second it s useful to learn how to read a dog s body language how you react to a dog who is chasing you because he thinks it s a game and that you re playing with him is completely different from how you react to a dog which has hostile intent third it s useful to learn how to present yourself to a dog dogs are social beasts and recognize a domination submission hierarchy to a dog there are two types of fellow creatures that which he dominates and that which dominate him you need to unambiguously represent yourself as being of the latter class you are god you are easily angered and your anger is terrible but god is also amused by one who properly submits to his dominance and may even on rare occasions dispense a kind word a kind word or even oh joy oh rapture unforeseen a dog bisquit now how does that all relate to biking well first it s a good idea to assume that most dogs who chase motorcycles do so because they think it s a game and not out of overt hostility the msf suggestion is a very good one when you see the dog coming slow down so he determines a particular place of interception just before you and he reach that spot punch the throttle so that when he reaches it you re already long gone dogs take a few seconds to react to new input and definitely cannot comprehend the acceleration that a motorcycle is capable of with a hostile dog or one which you repeatedly encounter stronger measures may be necessary this is the face off first and there is very important make sure you never face off a dog on his territory face him off on the road not on his driveway if necessary have a large stick rolled up newspaper etc something the beast will understand is something that will hurt him stand your ground then slowly advance your mental attitude is that you are very angry and are going to dispense terrible punishment the larger the dog the greater your anger dogs will pick up anger just as they can pick up fear and since you and he are not on his home territory it may suddenly dawn on the dog that perhaps he is on your territory and that you are prepared to fight to the death most dogs will decide that it is a good idea to retreat to their own territory where there is at least a home advantage they ll also observe that you are satisfied by that retreat gesture of submission and thus they have escaped punishment the interesting thing about dogs is that body language communicates a great deal to them the more effective you are at communicating body language the less you actually have to do after years with my pound beast i ve learned a few tricks i think
rec.motorcycles	misc buying info needed hi i have been thinking about buying a motorcycle or a while now and i have some questions is there a buying guide for new used motorcycles that lists reliability how to go about the buying process what to look for etc is there a pricing guide for new used motorcycles blue book also are there any books articles on riding cross country motorcycle camping etc is there an idiots guide to motorcycles any related information is helpful please respond directly to me thanks a lot jordan
rec.motorcycles	draining battery i have a problem with the battery on my honda cb nighthawk every week or so it is dead and i have to recharge it i ride the bike every day the battery is new and the charging system was checked thoroughly and it seems fine my suspicion is that it is draining somewhere do you have any idea about what is causing this problem please help since my mechanic and me are clueless ljubomir
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in rec motorcycles klinger ccu umanitoba ca jorg klinger writes in apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes most people wave or return my wave when i m on my harley other harley riders seldom wave back to me when i m on my duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each other from what i can tell when we take a hand off the bars we fall down the problem is that squids and badassbikers can t recognize each other s waves when you re riding a cruiser you wave by lifting two or three fingers of the left hand without first removing that hand from the handlebar when you re riding a crotch rocket you lower the left hand to about ankle level palm forward and call that a wave generic bike riders actually seem to raise the hand entirely off the handlebar and wave it around so it s easy to tell when they re waving chris
rec.motorcycles	re lane sharing in ca in three years of riding in the cities of san jose santa clara and sunnyvale i never came into any conflict with the local police over my lane splitting habits all three of these cities were listed earlier as being anti splitting in one way or another i can t say whether this was due to luck police kindness or there not actually being any ordinances against it in these cities so i continue revco
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes my previous posting on dog attacks must have generated some bad karma or something i ve weathered attempted dog attacks before using the approved method slow down to screw up dog s triangulation of target then take off and laugh at the dog now far behind you this time it didn t work because i didn t have time riding up the hill leading to my house i encountered a liver and white springer spaniel no relation to the springer softail or the springer spagthorpe a close relation to the spagthorpe viking actually the dog encountered me with intent to harm interesting dog collision story deleted what worries me about the accident is this i don t think i could have prevented it except by traveling much slower than i was this is not necessarily an unreasonable suggestion for a residential area but i was riding around the speed limit i worry about what would have happened if it had been a car instead of a dog but i console myself with the thought that it would take a truly insane bdi cager to whip out of a blind driveway at mph for that matter how many driveways are long enough for a car to hit mph by the end i eagerly await comment my driveway and about half my neighbor s driveways are long enough to do a good clicks mph for the velocity impaired if we wanted to granted i live in the country however i ve seen neighbors whip out of their driveways at the above mentioned mph quite a bit they claim they can tell that there s noone on the road for quite a ways this despite having nearly been hit myself by one of them while driving a chev x and twice taking my speed bicycle over the hood of a car that had pulled out saw me then stopped same driver same car about two months apart obmoto the scary relevant part is that these people and i live on the type of twisty two lane that we all favor for riding and i know damn well that they can t see me on my bike not if they couldn t see me in my pickup ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live slmr a he s hurt dammit jim i m a doctor oh right computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop there s nothing like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words hey you re not my daddy sorry i had to do it just once dean woodward you want to step into my world dean fringe rain com it s a socio psychotic state of bliss virago guns n roses my world dod
rec.motorcycles	re insurance and lotsa points in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well it looks like i m f cked for insurance i had a dwi in and for the beemer as a rec vehicle it ll cost me almost bucks to insure year now what do i do sell the bike and the car and start taking the bus that way you can keep drinking which seems to be where your priorities lay i expect that enough of us on this list have lost friends because of driving drunks that our collective sympathy will be somewhat muted showing great restraint keith hanlan keithh bnr ca bell northern research ottawa canada
rec.motorcycles	re ducati opinions wanted in article qmnga s q news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu albion h bowers writes in a previous article bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner says i guess i m out of touch but what exactly is the ducati a v twin desmo or is it that half a v twin with the balance weight where the nd cylinder would go a second for a isn t bad at all sorry i should have been more specific the ss ran the quater in the last small v twin duc we got in the us and the is a pantah based v twin was the sl pantah and it ran a creditable modern carbs and what not should put the in the high s at btw fzr s ran mid s and the latest crop of japanese s will out run that it s hard to remember but but a new goof will clobber an old kz handily both in top end and roll on technology stands still for no one not too hard to remember i bought a gs new in it was rd place in the speed wars behind the cbx xs eleven with a mile and horses that wouldn t even make a good these days then again i paid for it so technology isn t the only thing that s changed of course i d still rather ride the old gs across three states than any of the s i guess it s an indication of how much things have changed that a second didn t seem too far out of line blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article apr cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes huh roid on a completely different tack what was the eventual outcome of babe vs the bad mouthed biker later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter karen black karen angelo amd com wrote ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes nick pettefar npet bnr ca wrote english cars rover reliant morgan bristol rolls royce etc talk about harleys using old technology these morgan people really like to use old technology well if you want to pick on morgan why not attack its ash wood frame or its hand bent metal skin just try and get a replacement i thought the kingpost suspension was one of the mog s better features hey i wasn t picking on morgan they use old technology that s all i said there s nothing wrong with using old technology people still use shovels to dig holes even though there are lots of new powered implements to dig holes with bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this karr cs cornell edu david karr writes get the organization to act on it is easy to say but says little about what one really can and should do what the organization actually will do is largely determined by the president and directors as far as i can see that s what makes it so important to vote in an election of officers if i remember right i heard that in the last election only of the members actually cast votes i wonder if the current board and their friends and relatives make up of the membership i certainly plan on staying with the club long enough to vote and to see the results it does strike me that the bmwmoa is a lot less politically active in the state and national arenas not infighting than other m c organizations should we change this or just join the other groups that already are in politics i wouldn t support the moa becoming politically active in that sense the ama already knows how to do that and i d rather see the moa support the ama in a manner that the ama needs i think that more could be accomplished from one strong front rather than two not neccessarily coordinated ones joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this vech ra msstate edu craig a vechorik writes i wrote the slash two blues for a bit of humor which seems to be lacking in the moa owners news when most of the stuff is i rode the the first day i saw that i rode there the second day i saw this i admit it was a surprise to find something interesting to read in the most boring and worthless mag of all the ones i get any body out there know were the sense if humor went in people i though i still had mine but i dunno i think most people see your intended humor i do i liked the article you seem to forget that you ve stepped into the political arena as well intentioned as you may intend something you re walking through a china store carrying that on your head everything you say or do says something about how you would represent the membership on any given day you don t have to look far in american politics to see what a few light hearted jokes about one segment of the population can do to someone in the limelight obmoto i did manage to squeak in a reference to a joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this cdw t dayhoff med virginia edu dances with federal rangers writes i m going to buy a bmw just to cast a vote for groucho i thought you were gonna buy a bmw for its superior power and handling joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	re ducati opinions wanted i spoke to a sales dweeb in x a ducati dealer here in blighty and he had nothing good to say about them it appears they are waaaay underpowered basically it s the with a cc engine and there have been some quality problems rusty frame save your pennies buy the
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this i first heard it about academic politics but the same thought seems to apply to the bmwmoa the politics is so dirty because the stakes are so small who cares i get my dues worth from the ads and occasional technical articles in the news i skip the generally drab articles about someone s trek across iowa if some folks get thrilled by the power of the bmwmoa they deserve whatever thrills their sad lives provide btw i voted for new blood just to keep things stirred up henry prange physiology iu sch med blgtn dod bmwmoa gsi ride r gs rx conv cage explorer cage the four tenets of all major religions i am right you are wrong hence you deserve to be punished by me
rec.motorcycles	re extraordinary footpeg engineering exb csdvax csd unsw edu au wrote okay dod ers here s a goddamn mystery for ya oh goody i love a puzzle watson the games afoot today i was turning a degree corner just like on any other day but there was a slight difference a rough spot right in my path caused the suspension to compress in mid corner and some part of the bike hit the ground with a very tangible thunk i pulled over at first opportunity to sus out the damage stuff deleted okay all you engineering types how the f k do you explain this how can you rip a tightly fitting steel thread out of a threaded hole in alloy without damaging the thread in the hole is this some sort of hi tech design thingo let me guess you were making a left turn correct the edge of the stud contacting the road caused it to turn and unthread itself if you had been making a right turn it would have tightened the stud bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes mjs secondly it is the adhesion of the mjs tyre on the road the suspension geometry and the ground clearance of the mjs motorcycle which dictate how quickly you can swerve to avoid obstacles and mjs not the knowledge of physics between the rider s ears are you seriously mjs suggesting that countersteering knowledge enables you to corner faster mjs or more competently than you could manage otherwise egreen east sun com writes ed if he s not i will hey ed you didn t give me the chance sheesh the answer is absolutely as ed so eloquently describes ed put two riders on identical machines it s the ed one who knows what he s doing and why that will be faster it may ed be possible to improve your technique if you have no idea what it is ed through trial and error but it is not very effective methodology ed only by understanding the technique of steering a motorcycle can one ed improve on that technique i hold that this applies to any human ed endeavor herein lies the key to this thread kindly note the difference in the responses ed and i are talking about knowing riding technique while mike is arguing knowing the physics behind it it is possible to be taught the technique of countersteering ie push the bar on the inside of the turn to go that way without having to learn all the fizziks about gyroscopes and ice cream cones and such as seen in the parallel thread that stuff is mainly of interest to techno motorcycle geeks like the readers of rec motorcycles but doesn t need to be taught to the average student learning c steering mike doesn t seem to be able to make the distinction i know people who can carve circles around me who couldn t tell you who newton was on the other hand i know very intelligent well educated people who think that you steer a motorcycle by either leaning steering a la bicycles or a combination of and knowledge of physics doesn t get you squat knowledge of technique does mr bill
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article oxz b w w cellar org craig cellar org saint craig writes no anyone who is a true rider with the real riding attitude will offer a wave weather they are on a harley or on a honda or some other bike inless they have a serious case of my bike is better than your and you re too low to be acknowleged i may not wave i just wink at you with one eye course it s hard to see that through a shield and sunglasses but hey if you re a true rider with the real riding attitude you ll sense it chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article ms c mrc ikkoku kan panda com mrc ikkoku kan panda com mark crispin writes with a hostile dog or one which you repeatedly encounter stronger measures may be necessary this is the face off first and there is very important make sure you never face off a dog on his territory face him off on the road not on his driveway if necessary have a large stick rolled up newspaper etc something the beast will understand is something that will hurt him stand your ground then slowly advance your mental attitude is that you are very angry and are going to dispense terrible punishment the larger the dog the greater your anger this tactic depends for its effectiveness on the dog s conformance to a psychological norm that may not actually apply to a particular dog i ve tried it with some success before but it won t work on a charlie manson dog or one that s really really stupid a large irish setter taught me this in my yard apparently his territory one day i m sure he was playing a game with me the game was probably kill the very angry neighbor before he can dispense the terrible punishment chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re here s to the assholes in article jrobbins apr kingston cs ucla edu you rambled on about in article lee seas ucla edu small thunder seas ucla edu james f small writes here s to the asshole scooter owners who triple parked behind my bike today jim calling other prople assholes what s next if you re going to flame learn to spell besides assholeism is endemic to the two wheeled motoring community why i do believe that jason the wise respected hahahha has just made a stereotypical remark how unsophisticated of you i m so sorry you had to come out of your ivory tower and stoop as you would say to my obviously lower level besides geekism is endemic to the albino phoosball playing community and those who drive volvos remember send your flames to jrobbins cs ucla edu i need what a formal education can not provide dod
rec.motorcycles	re safe driving prcatices in article cvbnetprime com rbemben timewarp prime com rich bemben writes never dilly dally in that rear of either side of a cage when you pass make it as positive as possible and if you can t pass fully at least make sure that if you attempt it you can make the driver aware of you by at least getting into his area of vision this reads a lot like the philosophies of musashi in the book of five rings much of the section on the long sword is that of being strong and decisive hmmm the more things change ride with four eyes what an awfull thing to call your pillion rich fear not the evil men do in the name of evil but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good power corrupts check out the explosion that the cryptography policy from the whitehouse friday has caused curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	misc buying info needed hi i have been thinking about buying a motorcycle or a while now and i have some questions is there a buying guide for new used motorcycles that lists reliability how to go about the buying process what to look for etc is there a pricing guide for new used motorcycles blue book also are there any books articles on riding cross country motorcycle camping etc is there an idiots guide to motorcycles any related information is helpful please respond directly to me thanks a lot jordan me also thanks jonathan d fields fields cis ohio state edu
rec.motorcycles	need a wheel does anyone have a rear wheel for a pd they d like to part with does anyone know where i might find one salvage as long as i m getting the givi luggage for brunnhilde and have the room i thought i d carry a spare ride free bill johnsw wsuvm csc wsu edu prez bimc kotv kotrr dod ama spi wmtc kotd yamabeemer fj gs pdr special and a volvo what more could anyone ask pain is inevitable suffering is optional
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in rec motorcycles egreen east sun com writes revving the throttle requires either dis engaging the clutch or accelerating not if it s a harley chris
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article apr ntuvax ntu ac sg ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling i remember a commercial for some cheap top heavy import cage a while back where the driver says while wearing a stuck up fake tv anouncers smile it really goes straight it fits
rec.motorcycles	re got my bike was wanted advice on cb c purchase in article apr ll mit edu jburnside ll mit edu jamie w burnside writes being a reletively new reader i am quite impressed with all the usefull info available on this newsgroup isn t this redundent
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article ms c mrc ikkoku kan panda com mrc ikkoku kan panda com mark crispin writes i m a biker and a dog lover no wonder bikers have such a horrid reputation go find a human the interesting thing about dogs is that body language communicates a great deal to them the more effective you are at communicating body language the less you actually have to do i agree completely unfortunately the majority of my feelings before i can even start to think rationally abhout the dog that is trying to kill me are fear when there s been a moment to set up like you said a bit down the road or whatever i ve never had a problem with dogs curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re rgv and posing in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes in article spam maths adelaide edu au amydlak spam maths adelaide edu au adam mydlak writes squid deleted helment laws vary from state to state in my state louisiana it is the law i personaly would not go feet on a bike without one law or no law a helment will save your life i ll go feet but i draw the line at blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re comments on a honda interceptor in article apr skyfox howp skyfox writes hi i am considering the purchase of a honda cc interceptor for cdn about us i don t know the mileage on this bike but from the picture in the rv trader magazine it looks to be in good shape can anybody enlighten me as to whether this is a good purchase is it a good bike this will be my first bike i realize that for a beginner cc is considered too be a bit too much bike i have heard from friends that were once beginners that if they had to start all over again that they would have started with a bigger bike one just has to be careful and not drive outside their skill level i had considered and posted about two weeks ago the purchase of cc yamaha seca turbo with km but i am a little wary now about the prospect of having to deal with a turbo both on the road and in the shop i may still consider this bike the price dropped from to cdn but the honda seems to be a good bike comments one word heavy it steers heavy turns require alot of effort hard to get access to the large v motor weak small front forks with anti dive gizmos at
rec.motorcycles	bike for sale in ma usa i ve recently become father of twins i don t think i can afford to keep bikes and babies both babies are staying so of the harleys is going xlhd mi hey it was my wife s bike speed chain secondary laced wheels buckhorns tachometer saddlebags supports sissy bar se high flow air cleaner dark candy red jeff derienzo jd zorro tyngsboro ma us
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies xlyx vax cit cornell edu from xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive yes joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	re flashing anyone in article apr news columbia edu rdc cunixf cc columbia edu robert d castro writes hello all on my bike i have hazard lights both front and back turn signals flash since i live in nj and commute to nyc there are a number of tolls one must pay on route just before arriving at a toll booth i switch the hazards on i do thisto warn other motorists that i will be taking longer than the seconds to make the transaction taking gloves off getting money out of coin changer pocket making transaction putting gloves back on takes a little more time than the average cager takes to make the same transaction of paying the toll i also notice that when i do this cagers tend to get the message and usually go to another booth my question is this a good bad thing to do this sounds like a very good thing to do any others tend to do the same i will now whenever i don t have my handy dandy automatic coin fetcher toll payer annette with me thanks for the tip later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	antifreeze coolant for those of you with motorcycles of the liquid cooled persuasion what brand of coolant do you use and why i am looking for aluminum safe coolant preferably phosphate free and preferably cheaper than gallon can you believe it the kaw dealer wants a quart for the official blessed holy kawasaki coolant no way i m paying that usury thanks chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re should liability insurance be required in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article tcora b gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes in article apr walter bellcore com bzzzt if it is the other driver s fault your insurance co pays you less deductible then recoups the total cost from the other guy gal s company there s a fancy word for it which escapes me right now and pays you the deductible or you can go to the other guy gal s company right off just takes longer to get your cash as opposed to state farm who cut me a check today on the spot for the damage to my wife s cage the word is subrogation seems to me if you re willing to wait for the money from scumbag s insurance that you save having to pay the deductible however if scumbag s insurance is scum insurance then you may have to pay the deductible to get your insurance co s pack of rabid large fanged lawyers to recover the damages from scum insurance s lawyers sad but true call it job security for lawyers later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady you know it sounds suspiciously like no fault doesn t even do what it was advertised as doing getting the lawyers out of the loop sigh another naive illusion down the toilet tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com i will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect am amazed at the number of harley riders who are waving even to a lowly baby ninja let s keep up the good attitudes brock yates said in this months car and driver he is ready for a war against those who would rather we all rode busses we bikers should be too it s a freedom that we all wanna know and it s an obsession to some to keep the world in your rearview mirror while you try to run down the sun wheels by rhestless heart marty o ninja xl motosport
rec.motorcycles	re camping was help with backpack in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes in article apr bnr ca dave dal farra gpz bnr ca writes my crafty girfriend makes campfire bbq starters a la mcgiver well heck if you re going to make them yourself you can buy candle wax by the pound much cheper than the candles themselves hell just save your candle stubs and bring them light them up and dribble the wax all over the kindling wood and light that although i like the belly button lint eggshell case idea the best if you re feeling particularly industrious some eventful evening or you can do what i did one soggy summer open the fuel line drain some onto a piece of rough or rotten wood stick that into the middle of the soon to be inferno and carefully strike a match as kurt vonnegut titled one of the latter chapters in cat s cradle ah whoom works like a charm every time b o d y i s t h e b i k e dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw r gs s o u l i s t h e r i d e r
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks in article nielsmm nanna imv aau dk nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen writes the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why did i do the right thing yours truly niels mikkel yesss you make me proud to be an merkun good thing you didn t get shot though don t try that with a good ole boy in texas i once had a jeep driver south of conroe cut me off i was in my car after i had flipped him off for doing something really idiotic and senseless all lbs of him stretches out of his jeep he walks back he is blocking all traffic between dallas and houston since the freeway has been squeezed into a single lane and says to me stick that finger out again and i ll rip it off your hand and shove it down your sorry ass throat i stared straight ahead unblinking a hundred cars were honking eventually he got back into his jeep face beet red with anger and all the rest of the way back to houston i tailed him waving honking flipping him off yelling i m glad he decided not to shoot me b o d y i s t h e b i k e dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw r gs s o u l i s t h e r i d e r
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article qjn i d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes on a waterski bike you turn the handlebars left to lean right just like on a motorcycle so this supports the move the contact patch from beneath the centre of mass theory on how to lean this contradicts the need for gyroscopic precession to have a countersteering induced lean for a waterski bike it contradicts nothing for a motorcycle not only that but this morning i saw a tv ad for a waterski bike a sea doo for those who care i watched the lengthy ad very carefully and in every case and at every speed the riders turned the handlebars left to go left and right to go right in other words they were not countersteering so perhaps it is only some waterski bikes on which one countersteers curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	european m c insurance anyone in europe got any advice for a us citizen whose going to be living and working in italy for a year and wants to buy a motorcycle there an italian friend just arrived here in washington state to work for two years and she s finding it very very difficult to obtain car insurance so i thought i d ask i have a us license with motorcycle endorsement unlimited displacement and have had for years i am also a washington state motorcycle safety instructor if that info might help i will post a summary even if it s just of my own personal experience in buying a bike and getting it insured after i get to italy h marc lewis there are two kinds of people in the world olivetti north america those who divide everything in the world into marcl mail spk olivetti com two kinds of things and those who don t
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle detailing tip mbeaving bnr ca michael beavington writes don t you just hate when the speedo and tach on your bike start to cloud over from all that nasty sunshine the detailing tip of the week is to use rubbing compound moisten a rag apply some rubbing compound and work into the translucent previously transparent material after a few minutes of working on the plastic face the dial or plastic face will be clear once more will not work for glass btw i am not responsible for damages incurred when using the above method most models can use the treatment safely the beav mike beavington bellnorthernresearch ottawa ont canada dod seca seca rz seca suzuki seca turbo v sabre gts can t afford the mbeaving bnr ca mcguire s makes a plastic scratch removing compound and a plastic polishing compound which really work great as well
rec.motorcycles	shipping a bike can someone recommend how to ship a motorcycle from san francisco to seattle and how much might it cost i remember a thread on shipping if someone saved the instructions on bike prep please post em again or email thanks manish
rec.motorcycles	re tire recomendation for cb t wanted in article apr cbnewsm cb att com asalerno cbnewsm cb att com antonio j salerno jr writes i ve got a cb t with chen shing sp tires on it i got it with these tires on it the only reason i need new tires is beacuse i hate and don t feel safe on these i d appreciate any recomendations i can get about new tires thanks tony i ll throw in a vote for a metzler economy tire the me good for mid size older bikes rated to mph wearing well and handles my mile ride twisties to work well on the sr costs a bit more than the chengs irc s etc but still less than the sport metzlers for the newer bikes cost from chaparral is about for the front and for the rear jon m mike corcoran mike corcoran sandiego ncr com yamaha sr honda xl husky cross
rec.motorcycles	re bdi experience kent d polk kent swrinde nde swri edu wrote also watch your mirrors any time you are turning i just had another close one last night preparing for a right turn on a two lane road right turn signals on starting the turn and this lady behind me hits the throttle and starts to pass me on the right this has happened to me twice before the i have had this happen to me often enough that i always look for it on my ride to work in the morning i come to a stop light where there are lanes in my direction one for left turns one for straight through and one for right turns all clearly marked plus there is a clearly marked bicycle lane i ride into the right turn lane with my signal on and stop at the stop line looking left to see if i can make a right turn on red and when i start to move discovered that some idiot has pulled into the bike lane and is trying to pass me on the right grrr i always do a head check on bike lanes not always for bicycles bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa but right now it is beginning to look suspiciously like throwing money down a rathole when you guys sort this out let me know bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	re shipping a bike in a previous article manish uclink berkeley edu manish vij says can someone recommend how to ship a motorcycle from san francisco to seattle and how much might it cost hmmmmmm put your butt in the seat and follow the road signs dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re antifreeze coolant in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes for those of you with motorcycles of the liquid cooled persuasion what brand of coolant do you use and why i am looking for aluminum safe coolant preferably phosphate free and preferably cheaper than gallon can you believe it the kaw dealer wants a quart for the official blessed holy kawasaki coolant no way i m paying that usury prestone i buy it at shopko for less than that a gallon bmw has even more expensive stuff than kawasaki must be from grapes only grown in certain parts of the fatherland but bmw dave said don t worry about it just change it yearly and keep it topped off it s been keeping gretchen happy since so i guess it s ok kept my rabbit s aluminum radiator hoppy for years and miles too so i guess it s aluminum safe former owner of the late lamented rochester bmw motorcycles and all around good guy pooder rochester mn dod what do you care what other people think richard feynman i share garage space with gretchen k harvey cb note the different reply to address if you want to send me e mail
rec.motorcycles	re bikes with big dogs in article apr cua edu wendel cua edu writes has anyone ever heard of a rider giving a big dog such as a great dane a ride on the back of his bike my dog would love it if i could ever make it work thanks wendel cua edu if a large malmute counts then yes someone has heard and seen such an irresponsible childish stunt the dog needed assistance straightening out once on board the owner would lift the front legs of dog and throw them over the driver pilots shoulders said dog would get shit eating grin on its face and away they d go the dogs ass was firmly planted on the seat my dog and this dog actively seek each other out at camping party s they hate each other i think it s something personal steatopygias s r us doh that ain t no hottentot sesquipedalian s r us zx ama dod there ain t no more
rec.motorcycles	re uh der whassa deltabox can someone tell me what a deltabox frame is and what relation that has if any to the frame on my hawk gt that way next time some guy comes up to me in some parking lot and sez hey dude nice bike is that a deltabox frame on there i can say something besides duh er huh the yammie deltabox and the hawk frame are conceptually similar but yammie has a tm on the name the hawk is a purer twin spar frame design investment castings at steering head and swing arm tied together with aluminum extruded beams the yammie solution is a bit more complex godfrey digiorgi ramarren apple com dod ama rule never sell a ducati the street finds its own rule always obey rule uses for things wg ducati cinelli toyota krups nikon sony apple telebit
rec.motorcycles	re should liability insurance be required in article qf g l vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes dan j declerck declrckd rtsg mot com wrote in states with no fault auto insurance this applies you basically insure your own vehicle and the max you can sue for is about in mi anyway the point to be made with no fault is the fact that it removes the lawyers from the system and lets people get their money faster the removal of lawyers reduces the clogs on court system and thus reduces government burdens by not requiring so many judges does it work i don t know ask the people of michigan no ask the people of new jersey where the no fault hoax has been going on for years last i heard every state that ever got no fault insurance saw an increase in rates i know that s what happened in nj because i lived there when it changed just one more reason i will never go back to that state bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va in colorado my agent tells me that no fault only applies to the medical coverage
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this wm l ranck ranck joesbar cc vt edu wrote as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa but right now it is beginning to look suspiciously like throwing money down a rathole i concur with this the politics and bickering going on has ruined bmwmoa to me because of the politics and fighting i m i m going to let my current membership lapse when it s up for renewal hesh p s bmwra s on the level is a far superiour publication in my opinion
rec.motorcycles	re should liability insurance be required tommy marcus mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu wrote you know it sounds suspiciously like no fault doesn t even do what it was advertised as doing getting the lawyers out of the loop sigh another naive illusion down the toilet since most legislators are lawyers it is very difficult to get any law passed that would cut down on lawyers business that is why no fault insurance laws always backfire bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article qjtr llb news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu john r daker writes in a previous article ba ntuvax ntu ac sg says hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling you re kidding right this is flame bait in the extreme v max handling har har har har zero to very fast very quickly lastest rumor is hp at the rear wheel handles like a dream in a straight line to and then gets a tad upset according to a review in cycle world cornering er well you can t have everything seriously handling is probably as good as the big standards of the early s but not compareable to whats state of the art these days all this gleemed from reviews and discussions with owners i too lust after this bike bj bradw newbridge com no sig no plan no clue dod
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks in article nielsmm nanna imv aau dk nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen writes the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why did i do the right thing absolutely unless you are in the u s then the cager will pull a gun and blow you away bob mugele jungle bob email rmugele oracle com senior computational linguist phone oracle corp moto gs es concours irving texas dod if vegetarians eat vegetables beware of the humanitarians dr bob
rec.motorcycles	re got my bike was wanted advice on cb c purchase in article apr ll mit edu jburnside ll mit edu jamie w burnside writes sure is alot harder to load on a trailer than the kdx was i should be road legal tomorrow i am ignoring the afforementioned concerns about the transmission and taking my chances there should be no worries about the trans being a reletively new reader i am quite impressed with all the usefull info available on this newsgroup i would ask how to get my own dod number but i ll probably be too busy riding does this count cat dod faq mailx s hahahha jburnside ll mit edu waiting to press return later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re what about no fault in article galileo rtn ca boeing com meb galileo rtn ca boeing com michael bain writes insurance companies sure seem to go for no fault coverage since the majority of accidents are the cagers fault doesn t this imply that we would have to pay much higher rates under a no fault system with a cars only system it seems to make sense on the surface take the legal costs out of the system but it looks like motorcyclists would get screwed yup unfortunately as has been pointed out the cost of insurance does not go down with no fault the crappiest drivers make out like bandits because they no longer have to bear the responsibility of paying for insurance that they have boosted in price for themselves by being crappy drivers the good drivers now pay through the nose to spread the cost of the crappy drivers actions and that s not fair any plan that caps rates for crappy drivers is inherently a piece of shit because the rest of us end up paying more any plan that uses speeding tickets as a basis for raising rates is also a piece of shit as it is based upon the lie that faster drivers are inherently less safe than slower drivers and the nhtsa disproved that two years ago now later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes grf dropped my shoei rf off the seat of my bike while trying to rock it onto it s centerstand chipped the heck out of the paint on it so i cheerfully spent on a bottle of testor s model paint and repainted the scratches and chips for minutes the question for the day is re passenger helmets if you don t know for certain who s gonna ride with you like say you meet them at a church meeting yeah that s the ticket what are some guidelines should i just pick up another shoei in my size to have a backup helmet xl or should i maybe get an inexpensive one of a smaller size to accomodate my likely passenger do i have to be the one to say it don t be so stupid as to leave your helmet on the seat where it can fall down and go boom that kind of fall is what the helmet is designed to protect against if you fall with the helmet on and you hit the same spot the helmet landed on during the drop the helmet may not protect your head as well as it was intended to do conservative rec moto ers will recommend that you replace the helmet if you want to be sure that it will protect you adequately you should helmets go on the ground on a table on a chair on a shelf or on any other surface that is large enough to support them so that they will not easily be knocked down jeezus my new shoei would be to replace you think i m going to leave it to chance cripe later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article apr cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes the rider pilot of practically every riceburner i ve passed recently has waved to me and i m wondering if it will last could they simply be overexuberant that their burners have been removed from winter moth balls and the novelty will soon dissipate perhaps the gray beard that sprouted since the last rice season makes them think i m a friendly old fart that deserves a wave maybe then again did you get rid of that h d of yorn and buy a rice rocket of your own that would certainly explain the friendliness unless you maybe had a piece of toilet paper stuck on the bottom of your boot rich rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com triumph bonneville x fear not the evil men do in the name of evil but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle detailing tip chuck kuczaj csk wdl wdl loral com wrote mbeaving bnr ca michael beavington writes mcguire s makes a plastic scratch removing compound and a plastic polishing compound which really work great as well a useful tip how about someone letting me know motorcycle detailing tip the far side of my instrument panel was scuffed when the previous owner dumped the bike same is true for one of the turn signals both of the scuffed areas are black plastic i recall reading somewhere that there was some plastic compound you could coat the scuffed areas with then rub it down ending with a nice smooth shiny finish anyone any ideas thanks tony tony jones ant cray com uunet cray ant cmcs codegeneration group software division cray research inc f lone oak drive eagan mn
rec.motorcycles	re edu breaths in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes in article apr rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com dan j declerck writes the difference of opinion and difference in motorcycling between the sport bike riders and the cruiser bike riders that difference is only in the minds of certain closed minded individuals i have had the very best motorcycling times with riders of cruiser bikes hi don eddie yet i ride anything but continuously on this forum and on the street you find quite a difference between the opinions of what motorcycling is to different individuals cruiser bike riders have a different view of motorcycling than those of sport bike riders what they like and dislike about motorcycling this is not closed minded to not recognize this is in effect close minded a lot of it reminded me of rec motorcycles and the insipid flame age thereof if you so dislike it my occasionally leather clad poser pal why read it i scan it for information a lot of it is noise and pointless flame age it s why i used trn instead of rn if you have a problem with that i m really sorry for you dan declerck email declrckd rtsg mot com motorola cellular apd friends don t let friends wear neon phone
rec.motorcycles	re edu breaths in article apr rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com dan j declerck writes in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes in article apr rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com dan j declerck writes the difference of opinion and difference in motorcycling between the sport bike riders and the cruiser bike riders that difference is only in the minds of certain closed minded individuals i have had the very best motorcycling times with riders of cruiser bikes hi don eddie yet i ride anything but continuously on this forum and on the street you find quite a difference between the opinions of what motorcycling is to different individuals yes yes yes motorcycling is slightly different to each and every one of us this is the nature of people and one of the beauties of the sport cruiser bike riders have a different view of motorcycling than those of sport bike riders what they like and dislike about motorcycling this is not closed minded and what view exactly is it that every single rider of cruiser bikes holds a veiw that of course no sport bike rider could possibly hold please quantify your generalization for us careful now you re trying to pigeonhole a whole bunch of people dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes on a waterski bike you turn the handlebars left to lean right just like on a motorcycle i don t think this is the case at least not on all jetskis on my friend s jetski bars turn left to go left anyway all you re doing there is changing the yaw of the jets so the relationship between the handlbars and the rear mounted jets is completely arbitrary simple linkage could make it work either way so this supports the move the contact patch from beneath the centre of mass theory on how to lean this contradicts the need for gyroscopic precession to have a countersteering induced lean it seems to me that jetskis are even more irrelevant to this discussion than snow skis but it has been an amusing digression hey ed how do you explain the fact that you pull on a horse s reins left to go left or am i confusing two threads here phil stone new address pstone well sf ca us r st motorcycles ok
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorc egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes in article castle ed ac uk wbg festival ed ac uk w geake writes ultra sticky labels printed with your favourite curse are good even our local hospitals use them instead of wheel clamps putting one about a size on each window of the cage an apartment complex where i used to live tried this only they put the thing over the driver s window so they couldn t miss it a friend damned near wrecked on the way home one night her vision blocked by the sticker i suggested to the manager the enormous liability they were assuming by pulling that stunt not that logic has anything to do with it but i can see the liability of putting stickers on the car while it was moving or something but it s the bdi that chooses to start and then drive the car in a known unsafe condition that would seem to be liable furthermore they would have had the last chance to avoid an unsafe situation which is an additional factor in attributing blame anyway stickers on the window are less effective no one has any problem taking a blade to a window to remove a stubborn sticker but it s a different story with that that nice paint job on the door jeff jeffrey e f friedl omron corporation nagaokakyo kyoto japan jfriedl omron co jp jfriedl cs cmu edu dod n xbk cbr r visiting researcher to the mach project carnegie mellon pittsburgh
rec.motorcycles	splitfire plugs kinda offical yo whaz up earlier i was reading on the net about using splitfire plugs one guy was thinking about it and almost everybody shot him to hell well i saw one think that someone said about show me a team that used split fires well here s some additional insight and some theories about splitfire plugs and how they boost us as oppossed to cages splitfires were originally made to burn fuel more efficiently and increased power for the x cages well for these guys splitfires increased performance by increasing torque they weren t focusing on horsepower numbers now how does this related to us high performance pilots well that depends do you pilot a high performance or cylinder machine in the case of cylinders splitfires would increase overall torque but s make more top end horsepower with its torque packed down low so for s splitfires would not significantly increase power but what about twins many of you guys laugh at some of us twins but many times we carry less weight which sometimes can make up for the hp loss see doug polen vs scott russell daytona however twins make more torque thoughout their powerbands so how does this translate increased torque should theoretically help twins make more power splitfire claims that there should be not extra mods or anything made just stick em in now i don t know about all of this and i m trying to catch up with somebody about it now but splitfires should help twins more than s as far as racing teams ducati team fast by ferraci used splitfires in the season this is when they had jamie james running for em but i don t know why they stopped since then also somebody check to see if they had them in peace warren wcd uxa cso uiuc edu have suzuki will travel at a local fix er up er shop the bike repairest looked at a dumped zx then he asked the guy what happened i dumped the clutch how fast pretty fast insurance nope the fixer smiled what do you know about bikes not much
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks in article rmugele apr oasun oracle com robert mugele rmugele oracle com writes absolutely unless you are in the u s then the cager will pull a gun and blow you away well i would guess the probability of a bmw driver having a gun would be lower than some other vehicles at least i would be more likely to say something to someone in a luxosedan than a hopped up pickup truck for example mark mark s burnham markb wc novell com ama dod alfa romeo gtv ninja
rec.motorcycles	re ed must be a daemon child in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article bethdc g h i netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes bzzzzt it was me until i discovered my sr touring bike has a nifty little cache on it for things like coins or lipstick the new duc ss doesn t so i ll have to go back to carrying my lipstick in my jacket pocket life is so hard am i the only denizen who thinks that the natural look is the best look the thought of kissing that waxy shit smeared all over a woman s lips is a definite turn off so does clear lipstick chapstick etc fit under the natural look or the waxy shit category i wear something on my lips to keep them from drying out kissing dry cracked parched lips isn t too fun either not that i ll ever be kissing beth or noemi not if tom has anything to say about it you won t noemi speaks for herself beth beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr excitable girl dod yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ss ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged zz top
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes my previous posting on dog attacks must have generated some bad karma or something i ve weathered attempted dog attacks before using the approved method slow down to screw up dog s triangulation of target then take off and laugh at the dog now far behind you this time it didn t work because i didn t have time riding up the hill leading to my house i encountered a liver and white springer spaniel no relation to the springer softail or the springer spagthorpe a close relation to the spagthorpe viking actually the dog encountered me with intent to harm stuff deleted ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live i sure hope you got the cost of a replacement panel out of the owner here if the owner should seem reluctant a stop by the local spca preferably with your foot leg all swollen up to file a viscious dog report would do the trick g glenn schmall astroid armory com do not cross the oncoming lanes of r from hell beaming to cafe near death that are californias highways you yeah i got a dod so what sj mercury news
rec.motorcycles	re women s jackets was ed must be a daemon child in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu jhensley nyx cs du edu john hensley writes beth dixon bethd netcom com wrote new duc ss doesn t so i ll have to go back to carrying my lipstick in my jacket pocket life is so hard my wife is looking for a jacket and most of the men s styles she s tried don t fit too well if they fit the shoulders and arms they re too tight across the chest or something like that anyone have any suggestions i m assuming that the v pilot in addition to its handy storage facilities is a pretty decent fit is there any company that makes a reasonable line of women s motorcycling stuff more importantly does anyone in boulder or denver know of a shop that bothers carrying any i was very lucky i found a jacket i liked that actually fits hg makes the v pilot jackets mine is a very similar style made by just leather in san jose i bought one of the last two they ever made finding decent womens motorcycling gear is not easy there is a lot of stuff out there that s fringed everywhere made of fashion leather made to fit men etc i don t know of a shop in your area there are some women rider friendly places in the san francisco san jose area but i don t recommend buying clothing mail order too hard to tell if it ll fit bates custom makes leathers you might want to call them they re in l a and get a cost estimate for the type of jacket your wife is interested in large manufacturers like bmw and h g sell women s lines of clothing of decent quality but fit is iffy a while ago noemi and lisa sieverts were talking about starting a business doing just this sort of thing don t know what they finally decided beth beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr excitable girl dod yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ss ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged zz top
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks in article nielsmm nanna imv aau dk nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen writes from nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen subject how to act in front of traffic jerks date thu apr gmt the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why did i do the right thing it works for me i avoid obscenities and try to remain calm cool and collected and try something like you almost just killed me and i m not moving until you apologize or something more or less benign like that i haven t been shot a single time but i don t do it in texas and i do only do it when there are plenty of witnesses around steve steve l moseley moseley u washington edu microbiology sc phone university of washington fax seattle wa
rec.motorcycles	kreme hi folks recently saw one post about kreme being a bad idea but that was only one man s opinion any one else have any experience with the stuff
rec.motorcycles	aerostitch or piece request for opinions which is better a one piece aerostitch or a two piece aerostitch we re looking for more than well the pc is more versatile but the pc is better protection thanks in advance nadine
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets in article qk oi d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes if your primary concern is protecting the passenger in the event of a crash have him or her fitted for a helmet that is their size if your primary concern is complying with stupid helmet laws carry a real big spare you can put a big or small head in a big helmet but not in a small one so what should i carry if i want to comply with intelligent helmet laws the above comment in no way implies support for any helmet law nor should such support be inferred a promise is a promise steve steve l moseley moseley u washington edu microbiology sc phone university of washington fax seattle wa
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article apr ntuvax ntu ac sg ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling depends on in what context you want it commented on it handles great compared to some bikes not so good compared to others what would you like it compared to yes i ve put a few miles on one although i ve never owned one randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets in article qk oi d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes the question for the day is re passenger helmets if you don t know for certain who s gonna ride with you like say you meet them at a church meeting yeah that s the ticket what are some guidelines should i just pick up another shoei in my size to have a backup helmet xl or should i maybe get an inexpensive one of a smaller size to accomodate my likely passenger if your primary concern is protecting the passenger in the event of a crash have him or her fitted for a helmet that is their size if your primary concern is complying with stupid helmet laws carry a real big spare you can put a big or small head in a big helmet but not in a small one well you can accomplish both goals actually if you have a definite physical type in mind when you go to these cough church meetings if your tastes tend to smaller more petite cough churchgoers it is more likely that they will have a smaller head and you can safely get a medium or small helmet this works for me and i traded my spare large helmet with my best friend who at tends to look more for women that are over and can t usually fit into the medium size helmet he previously had of course if you aren t picky what size cough churchgoers you give helpful motorcycle rides to then ed s advice will hopefully cover any eventuality as far as legality is concerned and a spare handtowel in the tankbag makes acceptable padding so the passenger can see out of the viewport rather than the padding above the viewport in the cases of extreme mismatch randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re ducati opinions wanted in article c i hm jwc srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com frank ball writes godfrey digiorgi ramarren apple com wrote the ducati model is essentially a reduced displacement which means it weighs the same and is the same size as the with far less power it is produced specifically to meet a vehicle tax restriction the ducati model is essentially a reduced displacement which means it weighs the same and is the same size as the with far less power and less brakes bzzzt the ss is pounds lighter than the ss i personally and recently witnessed my ss do a stoppie with a larger than average rider aboard he said it took two fingers on that measely single front disk to accomplish the task how much more brake do you need as such it s somewhat large and overweight for its motor it will still handle magnificently it just won t be very fast there are very few other flaws to mention the limited steering lock is the annoyance noted by most testers and the mirrors aren t perfect i haven t gone over rpm yet still in break in and haven t had a problem with the ss being too slow the limited steering lock can be a problem if you aren t prepared for it the mirrors are very good imho someone forgot to tell their designer about the whazza behind you she no matta philosophy hewlett packard fax home valley house drive it xt seca f pl hmmmm i don t see a or ss in your sig did i miss something beth beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr excitable girl dod yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ss ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged zz top
rec.motorcycles	re choking ninja problem starr kuhub cc ukans edu writes i need help with my zx a i put supertrapp slip on s on it and had the carbs re jetted to match a set of k n filters that replaced the stock airbox ahh and just how were the carbs rejeted to match the changes you made to the bike a stage three kit from k n or dynojet now i have a huge flat spot in the carburation at about thousand rpm in most any gear isn t rejetting fun this is especially frustrating on the highway the bike likes to cruise at about mph which happens to be rpm in sixth gear i ve had it tuned and this doesn t seem to help i am thinking about new carbs or the injection system from a gpz does anyone have any suggestions for a fix besides restoring it to stock new carbs why would that fix it you still have to get the jetting right to match what seems to be a extremely overly lean condition you added a more free flowing exhaust and then higher flowing filters chances are it s to lean but this may not be that s the big fun with carb tuning it s very tricky your one and only choice unless you want to spend many hours fiddling with the carbs is to take it to a guy witha dyno and have he tune the carbs for your current set up otherwise you ll be playing a guessing game for a long time erik astrup afm dod cbr rr cbr concours ninja this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel lead guitar spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re long lasting tires for small bike wsh z amsun apma virginia edu will heyman writes no rear tires as small as there are some fronts though so get a instead is there anything that size any other recomendations call the tire companies yourself and tell them what you have they can make recomendations for you that s your best bet check a biker magazine cycle world etc for phone numbers it s possible there are no other tires available though erik astrup afm dod cbr rr cbr concours ninja this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel lead guitar spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re edu breaths in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes in article apr rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com dan j declerck writes in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes in article apr rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com dan j declerck writes the difference of opinion and difference in motorcycling between the sport bike riders and the cruiser bike riders that difference is only in the minds of certain closed minded individuals i have had the very best motorcycling times with riders of cruiser bikes hi don eddie yet i ride anything but continuously on this forum and on the street you find quite a difference between the opinions of what motorcycling is to different individuals yes yes yes motorcycling is slightly different to each and every one of us this is the nature of people and one of the beauties of the sport cruiser bike riders have a different view of motorcycling than those of sport bike riders what they like and dislike about motorcycling this is not closed minded and what view exactly is it that every single rider of cruiser bikes holds a veiw that of course no sport bike rider could possibly hold please quantify your generalization for us careful now you re trying to pigeonhole a whole bunch of people that plastic bodywork is useless that torque and an upright riding position is better than a slightly or radically forward riding position combined with a high rpm low torque motor to a cruiser motorcyclist chrome has some importance to sport bike motorcyclists chrome has very little impact on buying choice unless motivated solely by price these are the criteria each rider uses to select the vehicle of choice to ignore these as well as other criteria would be insensitive in other words no one motorcycle can fufill the requirements that a sport bike rider and a cruiser rider may have sometimes it s hard for any motorcycle to fufill a person s requirements you re fishing for flames dave this difference of opinion is analogous to the difference between sports car owners and luxury car owners this is a moot conversation dan declerck email declrckd rtsg mot com motorola cellular apd friends don t let friends wear neon phone
rec.motorcycles	re shipping a bike in article qkhrm go agate berkeley edu manish uclink berkeley edu manish vij writes can someone recommend how to ship a motorcycle from san francisco to seattle and how much might it cost i remember a thread on shipping if someone saved the instructions on bike prep please post em again or email thanks manish step join the ama american motorcycling association call ama join step after you become a member they will ship your bike uncrated to just about anywhere across the fruited plain for a few hundred bucks i have used this service and have been continually pleased they usually only take a few days for the whole thing and you do not have to prepare the bike in any way other than draining the gas not to mention that it is about of the normal shipping costs by the time you crate a bike and ship it with another company you can pay around nick coburn dod ama cbr cbr coburnn spot colorado edu
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this in article c joz hln cup hp com chris steinbroner hesh cup hp com writes wm l ranck ranck joesbar cc vt edu wrote as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa but right now it is beginning to look suspiciously like throwing money down a rathole i m going to let my current membership lapse when it s up for renewal hesh in my case that s not for another years so i d appreciate any hints on what will keep the organization in business that long and preferably longer of course and worth being part of david karr karr cs cornell edu
rec.motorcycles	re tracing license plates of bdi cagers in article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson wrote good advice of course thanks hesh time to go back for a zen refresher course imagine you are a lily gently floating in a still darkened pool and some bdc in a volvo comes careening off the freeway and lands on top of you in said pool you can t win jim jim franklin jamesf apple com jim bob sons cagiva alazzurra signature remodling triumph slalom champ low price quality workman dod kotp un ship call today for free estimit
rec.motorcycles	need help getting saddle bags hey i m pretty new to the wonderful world of motorcycles i just bought a used kaw kz csr from a friend i was just wondering what kind of saddle bags i could get for it since i know nothing about them are there bags for the gas tank how much would some cost and how much do they hold thanks for your advice i may be new to riding but i love it already jbourgui ucs indiana edu dod
rec.motorcycles	saddle bags and helmets for sale i m selling the following items a pair of hard saddle bags easy installation snap release feature with lock black brand is krusures two oshi full face helmets take all for these are comming off of my bike that i m selling maybe you could use the whole thing bike and accessories yamaha vision call medi work home thanks medi montaseri montasmm ntmtv com ames mcdcup ntmtv montasmm
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes grf dropped my shoei rf off the seat of my bike while trying to rock it onto it s centerstand chipped the heck out of the paint on it congraulations your helmet just passed the snell test so i cheerfully spent on a bottle of testor s model paint and repainted the scratches and chips for minutes oh well as least it looks ok now still it may not save your head as well as before you dropped it mike mike seales yamaha xj same as fj inform group ltd dod level db tower the terrace email homer inform co nz wellington phone new zealand fax
rec.motorcycles	stolen cbr rr stolen from pasadena between and pm on blue and white honda cbr rr california plate kg cbr serial number jh sc xpm engine number no turn signals or mirrors lights taped over for track riders session at willow springs tomorrow guess i ll miss it help me find my baby kjg
rec.motorcycles	re shipping a bike can someone recommend how to ship a motorcycle from san francisco to seattle and how much might it cost i d recommend that you hop on the back of it and cruise that s a really nice ride if you choose your route with any care at all shouldn t cost more than about in gas and maybe a night s motel bill mellon mellon ncd com uunet lupine mellon member of the league for programming freedom to find out how software patents may cost you your right to program contact lpf uunet uu net
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request bradw newbridge com brad warkentin writes seriously handling is probably as good as the big standards of the early s but not compareable to whats state of the art these days i think you have to go a little further back this opinion comes from riding cb s gs s kz s and a v max i find no enjoyment in riding a v max fast on a twisty road clayton t brooks from the heart cbrooks ms uky edu pot u o ky of the blue cbrooks ukma bitnet lex ky grass and rutgers uunet ukma cbrooks bourbon country ama nma maa ams acbl dod
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this can i resign bmw moa and get the remainder of my year membership refunded
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article oxz b w w cellar org craig cellar org saint craig writes shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes no anyone who is a true rider with the real riding attitude will offer a wave weather they are on a harley or on a honda or some other bike inless they have a serious case of my bike is better than your and you re too low to be acknowleged this you ll find is the case with most of the harley riders out here where i am however i still give them a wave and ride secure in the knowlege that i m a better persob than they are persob i kinda like that most people wave or return my wave when i m on my harley other harley riders seldom wave back to me when i m on my duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each other from what i can tell michael manning mmanning icomsim com nextmail accepted flstf fatboy ducati ss
rec.motorcycles	re tracing license plates of bdi cagers in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist wrote you could file a complaint for dangerous operation of a motor vehicle and sign it be willing to show up in court if it comes to it no you can do this really the other morning i went to do a lane change on the freeway and looked in my mirror theer was a car there but far enough behind i looked again about seconds later car still in same position i e not accelerating i triple check with a head turn and decide i have plenty of room so i do it accelerating i travel about mile staying feet off teh bumper of the car ahead and i do a casual mirror check this guy is right on my tail i mean you couldn t stick a hair between my tire his fender i keep looking in the mirror at him a d slowly let off teh throttle he stays there until i had lost about mph and then comes around me and cuts me off big time i follow him for about miles and finally get bored and turn back into work i can file a complaint about this and actually have the chance to have something done how who where jim jim franklin jamesf apple com jim bob sons cagiva alazzurra signature remodling triumph slalom champ low price quality workman dod kotp un ship call today for free estimit
rec.motorcycles	re got my bike was wanted advice on cb c purchase in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article apr ll mit edu jburnside ll mit edu jamie w burnside writes sure is alot harder to load on a trailer than the kdx was i should be road legal tomorrow i am ignoring the afforementioned concerns about the transmission and taking my chances there should be no worries about the trans being a reletively new reader i am quite impressed with all the usefull info available on this newsgroup i would ask how to get my own dod number but i ll probably be too busy riding does this count yes he thought about it cat dod faq mailx s hahahha jburnside ll mit edu waiting to press return later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs jack waters ii dod i don t fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when i m still asleep that i worry about
rec.motorcycles	re shipping a bike in article mellon apr pepper ncd com mellon ncd com ted lemon writes can someone recommend how to ship a motorcycle from san francisco to seattle and how much might it cost i d recommend that you hop on the back of it and cruise that s a really nice ride if you choose your route with any care at all shouldn t cost more than about in gas and maybe a night s motel bill yes up the coast over to portland then up i really nice most of the way and i m sure there s even better ways watch the weather though i got about as good a drenching as possible in the oregon coast range once howard berkey howard netcom com help
rec.motorcycles	re stolen aarghhhh dam dam dam ritvax isc rit edu writes dam i get back drom work today look at me bike before dam proceding in side i nearly shit my new dry rider cover is dam gone barely two weeks old and already gone god am somebody stole my trashed old honda red white blue cover off a kz ltd in residential palo alto a couple of weeks ago the cover had holes burnt in it around the exhaust etc etc i figured it was just kids but maybe not jet netcom com j eric townsend r r dod hafta kill you this is my fun account work email goes to jet nas nasa gov you got to put down the ducky if you wanna play saxophone skate unix or die boyo
rec.motorcycles	changing sprocket ratios honda cb do any honda gurus know if i can replace the the front sprocket on my honda cb k with a slightly larger one i see this as being preferable to reducing the size of the rear one just wanting ride at a more relaxed rpm clayton t brooks from the heart cbrooks ms uky edu pot u o ky of the blue cbrooks ukma bitnet lex ky grass and rutgers uunet ukma cbrooks bourbon country ama nma maa ams acbl dod
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this oh boy a little k bike versus scuffling grow up and that goes for the both of you i do hope that the dump dempster campaign works however i think that he is a crook and i am suprised that it has taken this long for anything to be done though obviously it ain t over yet on the other hand i m not sure that i want to be in bed with any of the wackos running throwing oo down a rathole might be more effective than sending it in to the club you wouldn t get anything but you don t get anything now the magazine you say ever since the moa politburo installed don it has lacked any sort of panache it may have had ah but what would i know i own a and a k bike static moa
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes so perhaps it is only some waterski bikes on which one countersteers a sea doo is a boat it turns by changing the angle of the duct behind the propeller a waterski bike looks like a motorcycle but has a ski where each wheel should be its handlebars are connected through a familiar looking steering head to the front ski it handles like a motorcycle i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re ed must be a daemon child in article bethdc jul l netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article bethdc g h i netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes bzzzzt it was me until i discovered my sr touring bike has a nifty little cache on it for things like coins or lipstick the new duc ss doesn t so i ll have to go back to carrying my lipstick in my jacket pocket life is so hard am i the only denizen who thinks that the natural look is the best look the thought of kissing that waxy shit smeared all over a woman s lips is a definite turn off so does clear lipstick chapstick etc fit under the natural look or the waxy shit category i wear something on my lips to keep them from drying out kissing dry cracked parched lips isn t too fun either agreed but yes chapstick fits under the waxy shit category although i ve noticed that stealing annette s chapstick after she s applied it kept my lips from cracking this past winter like they have in all previous winters sigh the price i must pay not that i ll ever be kissing beth or noemi not if tom has anything to say about it you won t noemi speaks for herself so does my darling annette okay i guess you can ready the barf bags now later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re shipping a bike can someone recommend how to ship a motorcycle from san francisco to seattle and how much might it cost i shipped my k s from portland oregon to daytona for this years bike week i rode it back the company i used is the federal co s you can reach them at ex you either have to be a ama member or maybe it is just a discount for ama not sure call ama join to become an ama member the shipping cost is based on the number of miles it cost me about for portland to orlando of that was insurance all i had to do is ride it to the shipping dock and siphon the gas out i think they can also pick up the bike from any business the bike arrived on time at orlando all i had to do was adjust the mirrors and add gas the bike was in perfect shape gary
rec.motorcycles	re bikes vs horses was re insect impac cooper mprgate mpr ca greg cooper writes in article qeftj d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com ed green in article sda usenet ins cwru edu ai cleveland freenet edu mike sturde only exceptional ones like me average ones like you can barely fart by themselves fuck you very much mike gentlemen please greg s obviously confused there aren t many any gentlemen on this newsgroup well maybe one or two robert smits ladysmith bc if lucas built weapons wars emd ham almanac bc ca would never start either
rec.motorcycles	re recommendation for a front tire in article qfkqhinn s rodan uu net smm rodan uu net steve mansfield writes yes my front tire is all but dead it has minimal tread left so it s time for a new one any recommendations on a good tire in front i m riding on an almost brand new me a in back stick an me on the front i ve got a laser on the front of my gpz and it has been a fantastic tire best front tire i ve ever had graeme weir dod fido c a unb ca university of new brunswick fredericton nb canada damn the box jockeys full speed ahead live to flame flame to live gpz kz kz trek mtb
rec.motorcycles	re long trips in article uupcb freddy ersys edmonton ab ca mark harrison freddy ersys edmonton ab ca mark harrison writes i am new to motorcycliing i e don t even have a bike yet and will be going on a long trip from edmonton to vancouver any tips on bare essentials for the trip tools clothing emergency repairs er without a bike ed maybe you ought to respond to this how you gonna get there if yer going by cage what s this got to do with r m i am also in the market for a used cycle any tips on what to look for so i don t get burnt much appreciated mark maybe somebody oughta gang tool faq this guy hmmm andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen writes did i do the right thing denmark eh should have taken a short sword and cleaved his car in half since i assume you didn t have a short sword on you i certainly have no problems with your choice of substitute action dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes riding up the hill leading to my house i encountered a liver and white springer spaniel no relation to the springer softail or the springer spagthorpe a close relation to the spagthorpe viking i must have missed the article on the spagthorpe viking was that the one with the little illuminated dragon s head on the front fender a style later copied by indian and the round side covers accident deleted what worries me about the accident is this i don t think i could have prevented it except by traveling much slower than i was this is not necessarily an unreasonable suggestion for a residential area but i was riding around the speed limit you can forget this line of reasoning when an animal decides to take you there s nothing you can do about it it has something to do with their genetics i was putting along at a mere mph or so gravel road with few loose rocks on it as in just like bad concrete and lbs of swinging beef jumped a fence came out of the ditch and rammed me when i saw her jump the fence i went for the gas since she was about feet ahead of me but a good forty to the side damn cow literally chased me down and nailed me no damage to cow a bent case guard and a severely annoyed rider were the only casualties if i had my shotgun i d still be eating steak nope if lbs of cow can hit me when i m actively evading forget a much more manueverable dog just run them over dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
rec.motorcycles	re flashing anyone behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes just before arriving at a toll booth i switch the hazards on i do thisto warn other motorists that i will be taking longer than the seconds to make the transaction my question is this a good bad thing to do this sounds like a very good thing to do i ll second that in addition i find my hazards to be more often used than my horn at speeds below mph on the interstates quite common in mountains with trucks some states require flashers in rural areas flashers let the guy behind you know there is a tractor with a rather large implement behind it in the way use them whenever you need to communicate that things will deviate from the norm chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name is that zx painted green since the green triumph that a friend owned was sold off her name is now free for adoption how does the name thunderpickle grab you dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in apr ntuvax ntu ac sg ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling the v max goes in a strait line like shit shrough a goose in the corners i d rather ride a honda dream dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
rec.motorcycles	re bikes vs horses was re insect impacts f in article txd able mkt com com txd esd com com tom dietrich writes in a previous article egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher says lots of things none of which are quoted here in article rgu usenet ins cwru edu ai cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes you think your average dirt biker can jump a foot log how about an log that is suspended about off of the ground for that matter how about a log that is suspended off of the ground oh ye of little imagination you don t jump over those that s where you lay the bike down and slide under jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	battery storage why not charge and store dry so it looks like i m going to have to put a couple of bikes in storage for a few months starting several months from now and i m already contemplating how to do it so they re as easy to get going again as possible i have everything under control i think besides the batteries i know that if i buy a battery tender for each one and leave them plugged in the whole time the bikes are in storage they ll be fine but i m not sure that s necessary i ve never heard anyone discussing this idea so maybe there s some reason why it isn t so great but maybe someone can tell me would it be a mistake to fully charge the batteries drain the electrolyte into separate containers one for each battery seal the container close up the batteries and leave them that way then it would seem that when the bikes come out of storage i could put the electrolyte back in the batteries and they should still be fully charged what s wrong with this on a related but different note for you bay area denizens wasn t there someone who had a bunch of spare edta a few months back who was it is there still any of it left thanks for any and all help robert
rec.motorcycles	re should liability insurance be required in article apr newbridge com bradw newbridge com brad warkentin writes in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes sorry i lost the attributions in most areas drivers are required to show proof of financial responsibility which usually means insurance required how when they get pulled over most drivers bellyaching on the net aside don t get pulled over and checked the laws are enforceable only after the fact in which case often somebody is out a lot of money don t you have any requirement for yearly plate stickers in the us in ontario and manitoba for sure and the other provinces i think you have to show proof of insurnace when you renew your plate ie get a new sticker yes unfortunately there is also the concept that the owner of a car is not responsible for the actions of any authorized user of the car that s one of the biggest arguments against photo radar ticketing systems you also get to pay all outstanding tickets they even have cross province agreements at least between ontario and quebec so that unpaid tickets in the other province are on record no having an up to date sticker is a bad trouble with that is you then have no recourse if a mis issued ticket or a clerical error on a computer follow you around the city of chicago the informal motto of which being the city the works issues dozens of parking tickets each year to people who have never set foot or tire in the city jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	fortune guzzler barred from bars saw this in today s newspaper fortune guzzler barred from bars barnstaple england reuter a motorcyclist said to have drunk away a insurance payment in less than years was banned wednesday from every pub in england and wales david roberts had been awarded the cash in compensation for losing a leg in a motorcycle accident he spent virtually all of it on cider a court in barnstaple in southwest england was told judge malcolm coterill banned roberts from all bars in england and wales for months and put on two years probation after he started a brawl in a pub bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	solar battery chargers any good i ve seen solar battery boosters and they seem to come without any guarantee on the other hand i ve heard that some people use them with success although i have yet to communicate directly with such a person have you tried one what was your experience how did you use it occasional charging long term leave it for weeks etc robert kennedy robert kennedy office robert cs stanford edu home voice computer science dept stanford university home tty
rec.motorcycles	re please gentlemen in article cvbnetprime com tjohnson tazmanian prime com tod johnson x writes in article uupcb freddy ersys edmonton ab ca grant barkwell freddy ersys edmonton ab ca grant barkwell writes cp too my certain knowledge simply posessing a motorcycle cp can get you laid true oh so very thankfully true gentlemen please do us all a rather appropriate favor and excuse the comments about your sexual fortunes on the net it is hardly an tod i think you ve misspoke if they re banking on owning a motorcycle to get them laid then i doubt they have sexual fortunes quite the reverse jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter in article apr hasler ascom ch kevinh hasler ascom ch writes ba were trying to sell rr to bmw even tested a bmw v in a corniche i think it will remain british for the time being until ba get hard up anyway rolls royce owned by a non british firm ye gods that would be the end of civilization as we know it jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in article qc fu c r sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes loud pipes are a biligerent exercise in ego projection no arguements following just the facts i was able to avoid an accident by revving my engine and having my stock harley pipes make enough noise to draw someones attention i instinctively revved my engine before i went for my horn don t know why but i did it and it worked thats rather important i am not saying the louder the pipes the better my harley is loud and it gets me noticed on the road for that reason i personally do not feel it is to loud if you do well thats to bad welcome to america home of the free land of the atlanta braves if you really want a fine tuned machine like our federal government to get involved and pass db restrictions it should be generous enough so that a move like revving your engine will get you noticed sure there are horns but my hand is already on the throttle should we get into how many feet a bike going mph goes in seconds or how long it would take me to push my horn button and aren t you the guy that doesn t even have a bike tod j johnson dod go slow take geritol
rec.motorcycles	re should liability insurance be required in article apr walter bellcore com fist iscp bellcore com richard pierson writes lets get this no fault stuff straight i lived in nj when nf started my rates went up alot moved to pa and my rates went down alot the nf came to pa and it was a different story if you are sitting in a parking lot having lunch or whatever and someone wacks you guess whose insurance pays for it give up yours only if you have a weeny insurance company unless it s some stupid pa law i know that if some jerk hits me while i m in a parking lot if my insruance company doesn t sue his or his doesn t immediately say yes it s his fault i ll sure him myself and tell my insurance company to go to hell if they raise my rates andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorc in article qjmf d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article castle ed ac uk wbg festival ed ac uk w geake writes ultra sticky labels printed with your favourite curse are good even our local hospitals use them instead of wheel clamps putting one about a size on each window of the cage an apartment complex where i used to live tried this only they put the thing over the driver s window so they couldn t miss it a friend damned near wrecked on the way home one night her vision blocked by the sticker i suggested to the manager the enormous liability they were assuming by pulling that stunt she claimed it was the driver who was at fault for illegally parking in the first place that would probably be good for a laugh or two in court before they found her liable for serious be careful about putting stickers on cages windows yeah make darn sure you cover all the glass so the driver can t reasonably expect to be able to drive with the things on the car jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	re fortune guzzler barred from bars bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes saw this in today s newspaper fortune guzzler barred from bars barnstaple england reuter a motorcyclist said to have drunk away a insurance payment in less than years was banned wednesday from every pub in england and wales david roberts had been awarded the cash in compensation for losing a leg in a motorcycle accident he spent virtually all of it on cider a court in barnstaple in southwest england was told judge malcolm coterill banned roberts from all bars in england and wales for months and put on two years probation after he started a brawl in a pub is there no justice if i lost my leg when i was and had to give up motorcycling assuming david didn t know that it can be done one legged i too would want to get swamped maybe even for ten years i ll admit i d probably prefer homebrew to pubbrew but still judge coterill is in some serious trouble i can tell you that any chance you can get to him and convince him his ruling was backward nick perhaps the lad deserved something for starting a brawl bad form horribly bad form but for getting drunk that i thought was ones natural born right and for spending his own money my goodness who cares what one does with one s own moolah even if one spends it recklessly i m ashamed of humanity matt block koch dod honda cb
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this in article apr cs cornell edu karr cs cornell edu david karr writes riveting bmwmoa election soap opera details deleted well there doesn t seem to be any shortage of alternative candidates obviously you re not voting for mr vechorik but what about the others i m going to buy a bmw just to cast a vote for groucho ride safe cliff weston dod seca ii tem this bike is in excellent condition i ve done all the work on it myself glen crash stone
rec.motorcycles	re european m c insurance i moved to sweden and i have to take all the tests again written and road even though i had a valid us license for some years of course i became a resident and could drive on my us license until i became resident don t know about italy it s different in the eec
rec.motorcycles	re camping question in article bnr ca npet bnr ca nick pettefar writes back in my youth ahem the wiffy and moi purchased a gadget which heated up water from a v source it was for car use but we thought we d try it on my rd b it worked ok apart from one slight problem we had to keep the revs above any lower and the motor would die from lack of electron movement on my lc rz to any ex colonists i replaced the bolt at the bottom of the barrel with a tap when i wanted a coffee i could just rev the engine until boiling and pour out a cup of hot water i used ethylene glycol as antifreeze rather than methanol as it tastes sweeter roger collier uk sun com o o o o sun microsystems h coventry england u dod gsxr l keeper of the gsxr list
rec.motorcycles	re aerostitch or piece in article apr vax cit cornell edu na vax cit cornell edu writes request for opinions which is better a one piece aerostitch or a two piece aerostitch we re looking for more than well the pc is more versatile but the pc is better protection thanks in advance nadine i would be scared of trying to fit the one piece when i got my two piece i got the jacket in and the pants in just due to my manly man of an athletic build kind of thing no laughing please seriously i m not trim and the pants would have been way too big also i don t think the piece does provide better protection if i m wrong i ll be swiftly if ever so gently correct by the net pansies of knowledge as they like to call themselves regards jack waters ii dod i don t fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when i m still asleep that i worry about
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post leavitt cs umd edu mr bill writes mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes mjs also imho telling newbies about countersteering is er counter productive mjs cos it just confuses them i rode around quite happily for years mjs knowing nothing about countersteering i cannot say i ride any differently mjs now that i know about it i interpret this to mean that you re representative of every other motorcyclist in the world eh mike rather presumptive of you imho in my humble opinion leavitt cs umd edu mr bill writes leavitt the time to learn countersteering techniques is when you are first leavitt starting to learn before you develop any bad habits i rode for leavitt five years before taking my first course msf erc and learning leavitt about how to countersteer it s now eight years later and i still leavitt have to consciously tell myself don t steer countersteer old leavitt habits die hard and bad habits even harder mjs sorry bill but this is complete bollocks you learned how to countersteer mjs the first time you rode the bike it s natural and intuitive sorry mike i m not going to kick over the can you not countersteer over mph stone that one s been kicked around enough for the sake of argument i ll concede that it s countersteering sake of argument only mjs msf did not teach you how to countersteer it only told you what mjs you were already doing and there s no value in that i didn t say there was no value all i said was that it is very confusing to newbies there s a big difference in knowing what s happening and how to make it do it especially in the extreme case of an emergency swerve and just letting the bike do whatever it does to make itself turn once i knew precisely what was happening and how to make it do it abruptly and on command my emergency avoidance abilities improved tenfold not to mention a big improvement in my normal cornering ability i am much more proficient knowing how to countersteer the motorcycle rather than letting the motorcycle steer itself that is when i remember to take cognitive command of the bike rather than letting it run itself through the corners whereupon i return to my original comment better to learn what s happening right from the start and how to take charge of it rather than developing the bad habit of merely going along for the ride bill you are kidding yourself here firstly motorcycles do not steer themselves only the rider can do that secondly it is the adhesion of the tyre on the road the suspension geometry and the ground clearance of the motorcycle which dictate how quickly you can swerve to avoid obstacles and not the knowledge of physics between the rider s ears are you seriously suggesting that countersteering knowledge enables you to corner faster or more competently than you could manage otherwise mike i m extremely gratified for you that you have such a natural affinity and prowess for motorcycling that formal training was a total waste of time for you assuming your total training hasn t come from simply from reading rec motorcycles however of the motorcyclists i ve discussed formal rider education with have regarded the experience as overwhelmingly positive this regardless of the amount of experience they brought into the course ranging from minutes to years formal training in this country as far as i am aware does not include countersteering theory i found out about countersteering about six years ago from a physics lecturer who was also a motorcyclist i didn t believe him at first when he said i steered my bike to the right to make it turn left but i went out and analysed closely what i was doing and realized he was right it s an interesting bit of knowledge and i ve had a lot of fun since then telling others about it who were at first as sceptical as i was but that s all it is an interesting bit of knowledge and to claim that it is essential for all bikers to know it or that you can corner faster or better as a result is absurd formal training is in my view absolutely essential if you re going to be able to ride a bike properly and safely but by including countersteering theory in newbie courses we are confusing people unnecessarily right at the time when there are far more important matters for them to learn and that was my original point mike
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding norman hamer maven eskimo com wrote what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling a couple of hours after you feel sober or what should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow i generally find that after two or three decent hits of nitrous my riding improves enormously drinking is silly your breath smells it costs lots of money and the pigs can detect it with their machines no works for me try it nick the like wow um far out er biker dod concise um errr m like um er lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re where s the oil on my k going in article c dlvo j skates gsfc nasa gov tim intrepid gsfc nasa gov tim seiss writes after both oil changes the oil level was at the top mark in the window on the lower right side of the motor but i ve been noticing that the oil level seen in the window gradually decreases over the miles i m always checking the window with the bike on level ground and after it has sat idle for awhile so the oil has a chance to drain back into the pan the bike isn t leaking oil any place and i don t see any smoke coming out of the exhaust my owner s manual says the amount of oil corresponding to the high and low marks in the oil level window is approx quart it looks like my bike has been using about quarts miles the owner s manual also gives a figure for max oil consumption of about oz mile or l km my question is whether the degree of oil consumption i m seeing on my bike is normal have any other k owners seen their oil level gradually and consistently go down should i take the bike in for work i m asking local guys also to get as many data points as i can it s normal for the bmw k bikes to use a little oil in the first few thousand miles i don t know why i ve had three new k bikes and all three used a bit of oil when new max maybe quart in first miles this soon quits and by the time i had miles on them the oil consumption was about zero i ve been told that the harder you run the bike within reason the sooner it stops using any oil charlie smith charlie elektro cmhnet org kotdohl kotwitdodl kspi dod doh ama moa ra buckey beemers bk ohio v bmw k lt r gs pd r triumph tr columbus ohio usa
rec.motorcycles	re internet discussion list in article qc f ad moe ksu ksu edu bparker uafhp uark edu brian parker writes hello world of motorcyles lovers soon to be lovers i have started a discussion list on the internet for people interested in talking bikes we discuss anything and everything if you are interested in joining drop me a line since it really isn t a list what we do is if you have a post you send it to me and i distribute it to everyone c mon join and enjoy huh did this guy just invent wreck motorcycles curious minds want to know charlie smith charlie elektro cmhnet org kotdohl kotwitdodl kspi dod doh ama moa ra buckey beemers bk ohio v bmw k lt r gs pd r triumph tr columbus ohio usa
rec.motorcycles	re internet discussion list in article qc f ad moe ksu ksu edu bparker uafhp uark edu brian parker writes hello world of motorcyles lovers soon to be lovers i have started a discussion list on the internet for people interested in talking bikes we discuss anything and everything if you are interested in joining drop me a line since it really isn t a list what we do is if you have a post you send it to me and i distribute it to everyone c mon join and enjoy on second thought maybe he didn t invent wreck moto he s trying a round about way to figure out the dod theme song one faq coming right up charlie smith dod doh kspt o o there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy why am i locked outside o o
rec.motorcycles	re bikes and contacts in article apr news columbia edu scs cunixb cc columbia edu sebastian c sears writes in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes in article c ckp c d news cso uiuc edu cs a dcl nxt cso uiuc edu cs student writes i have a quick question i recently got a bike and drive it often but my one problem is the wind messing with my contacts i have gas permeable how about a full face helmet with the face sheild down works for me actually this doesn t always work for me either i have wind that blows around inside my rf some and it ll dry my eyes out get dust in them eventually unless i m also wearing sunglasses inside my helmet i too usually wear sunglasses inside my full face helmet to keep dirt wind out of my contacts mumble mumble mumble charlie smith dod doh kspt
rec.motorcycles	re looking for a maintenance manual for honda cb in article apr wam umd edu buffalo wam umd edu duncan d sterling writes if anyone thinks that touring on a cb is pushing the envelope try a twin my local honda dealer says that my honda dream was commonly referred to as a serious touring bike when it first came out maybe there is something in the water around here what s the problem here back in i rode a puch from paris to barcelona and back that was a two stroke and back then it was representative of the size of bikes on the road a was considered a big bike and the superbikes of the day were cc or cc anything bigger was real rare charlie smith dod doh kspt nothing in the water mais voulez vous un peu du melange
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses me off evelyn wells on the apr cst wibbled once again this morning i pulled up to the designated motorcycle parking area only to find a cage pulled up behind the bikes if people don t double park cars why do they do it to motorcycles never mind that rhetorical question i know why they do it what i want to know is what can i do about it carry pieces of paper that say don t park your car in the motorcycle area call the cops wait until they emerge from the building and berate them until they beg forgiveness does anyone else have this problem and what do you do about it evie i don t know if you have a local branch where you are but the preferred method over here is to phone the ira and tell them about the car and that it belongs to an mp who is on a northern ireland government committee an hour or so later and the car is no longer a problem it s best not to park too close to it though nick the vengeful biker dod concise oxford plastic m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re bikes vs horses was re insect impacts f jonathan e quist on the thu apr gmt wibbled in article txd able mkt com com txd esd com com tom dietrich writes in a previous article egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher says lots of things none of which are quoted here in article rgu usenet ins cwru edu ai cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes you think your average dirt biker can jump a foot log how about an log that is suspended about off of the ground for that matter how about a log that is suspended off of the ground oh ye of little imagination you don t jump over those that s where you lay the bike down and slide under jonathan e quist the nice thing about horses though is that if they break down in the middle of nowhere you can eat them fuel s a bit cheaper too nick the hp biker dod concise oxford giddy up m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re extraordinary footpeg engineering in article apr csdvax csd unsw edu au exb csdvax csd unsw edu au writes okay dod ers here s a goddamn mystery for ya the stud on the side of the bike that clunked when i turned was absent i m fairly sure it was there before the event in fact the thread in the hole in the footpeg was perfectly intact with no evidence of something having been forcefully ripped out of it only moments previously okay all you engineering types how the f k do you explain this how can you rip a tightly fitting steel thread out of a threaded hole in alloy without damaging the thread in the hole you can t knock a threaded stud out from its hole without destroying the threads also part of the stud would still be in the hole therefore the stud was not in the hole before you touched something down on that side of the bike dr doom
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes in article zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes all of us that argue about gyroscopes etc throughly understand the technique of countersteering including all the ones who think that they countersteer all the way through a corner the underlying physics are a different matter and need not be taught to beginners agreed countersteering the technique should be taught for only with understanding of the technique can one develop maximally effective emergency avoidance manuvers this is really the only thing we disagree on maybe we should agree to disagree i still think that telling newbies to steer left to turn to the right is unnecessarily confusing when they ll do it anyway if they just get on the bike and ride the damn thing i know exactly what s happening it s those other gits that haven t a clue me too understanding the physics of traction is fine but i cannot see how detailed theory like that has any place in a motorcyle training course all you need to know is that maximum traction is obtained with the tyre just beginning to slide against the road then we are in violent disagreement while what you state is true it is insufficient to form a traction management policy available traction increases with applied normal force ie traction available to the front wheel increases as weight shifts under braking forces and correspondingly decreases at the rear thus a technique of applying both brakes and easing off the rear and increasing pressure on the front can best be learned with an understanding of weight shift and available traction jeez ed when you started talking about traction management policies i thought you were making some weird reference to looking after railway locomotives the official line here though i do have my doubts about it is that the front brake is applied first followed by the rear brake the idea being that you avoid locking up the rear after weight transfer takes place in practice i suspect most people do what you describe saying brake until the tire just begins to slide is next to useless advice to a newbie he has to go out and slide the tire to find out where that is it also gives him zero information from which to develop a braking technique that changes as the braking and corresponding weight shift develop if you don t slide the tyre you have no way of knowing whether you ve achieved maximum braking or not i m not suggesting that you should always aim to brake as hard as you possibly can but if you want to find the limits of the machine you have to go beyond them in any case for maximum braking if as i suggested you aim to keep both wheels just on the point of sliding then you ll be doing exactly as you suggest
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles in article apr alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov gregory humphreys writes what is buying a bike going to do to my insurance i turn in about a month so my parents have been taking care of my insurance up till now and i need a comprehensive list of costs that buying a motorcycle is going to insure i live in washington dc if that makes a difference it depends on the bike once you ve found a bike you re interested in call some insurance companies for rates some bikes are much cheaper to insure than you might think my ex only costs me year in st louis i m any recommendations on what i should buy where i should look for it for a first bike i recommend cc s or less and a bike short enough to get both feet on the ground when you stop the one piece of advice everyone will give you is to take a motorcycle safety foundation rider s course see a dealer for details in some states completion of such a course can give you a break on insurance it will also teach you to ride properly from the beginning so you won t learn any bad habits good luck riding a motorcycle is the most fun you can have naked or otherwise alan
rec.motorcycles	re insurance discount erik asphaug x asphaug lpl arizona edu wrote unless some insurance agent offers a multi vehicle discount they do this all the time for cars assuming that you re only capable of progressive offers multi vehicle discounts good prices too imho tony tony jones ant cray com uunet cray ant cmcs codegeneration group software division cray research inc f lone oak drive eagan mn
rec.motorcycles	re first bike in article forqfa iuzmatnmz andrew cmu edu james leo belliveau jbc andrew cmu edu writes i am a serious motorcycle enthusiast without a motorcycle and to put it bluntly it sucks i really would like some advice on what would oh for a second i thought this was a posting by ed green bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	re fortune guzzler barred from bars that s okay he s perfectly welcome to come to scotland you know
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles gregory humphreys gregh niagara dcrt nih gov wrote greg i m very new to motorcycles haven t even bought one yet i was in the same position about you how do you learn if you ve never ridden i took a class put on by a group called the motorcycle safety foundation in california they might have something similar in washington try calling a motorcycle dealer in your area and asking it s a good first start on how to ride a motorcycle correctly
rec.motorcycles	re traffic morons in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau wrote nmm from nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen nmm subject how to act in front of traffic jerks nmm the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to nmm the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was nmm driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i nmm calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the nmm window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why nmm did i do the right thing imho you did the wrong thing you could have been shot or he could have run over your bike or just beat the shit out of you consider that the person is foolish enough to drive like a fool and may very well act like one too just get the heck away from the idiot if the driver does something clearly illegal you can file a citizens arrest and drag that person into court it s a hassle for you but a major hassle for the perp john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re insurance and lotsa points in article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com writes i am very glad to know that none of you judgemental little shits has hey pal who re you calling litte tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies on apr gmt xlyx vax cit cornell edu said is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive yes but the rear wheel comes off the ground not the front see it just hops into the air figure john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re traffic morons in article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau wrote nmm from nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen nmm subject how to act in front of traffic jerks nmm the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to nmm the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was nmm driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i nmm calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the nmm window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why nmm did i do the right thing imho you did the wrong thing you could have been shot or he could have run over your bike or just beat the shit out of you consider that the person is foolish enough to drive like a fool and may very well act like one too just get the heck away from the idiot if the driver does something clearly illegal you can file a citizens arrest and drag that person into court it s a hassle for you but a major hassle for the perp john stafford minnesota state university winona you can t make a citizens arrest on anything but a felony all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re paris dakar bmw touring mike johnson mentorg com mentor graphics sw boeckman rd software support corporation wilsonville or framework products division
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in a previous article xlyx vax cit cornell edu says mike terry asks is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re first bike and wheelies in a previous article jbc andrew cmu edu james leo belliveau says anyone i am a serious motorcycle enthusiast without a motorcycle and to put it bluntly it sucks i really would like some advice on what would be a good starter bike for me i do know one thing however i need to make my first bike a good one because buying a second any time soon is out of the question i am specifically interested in racing bikes cbr f gsx r i know that this may sound kind of crazy considering that i ve never had a bike before but i am responsible a fast learner and in love please give me any advice that you think would help me in my search including places to look or even specific bikes that you want to sell me thanks the answer is obvious zx d dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive no it s not possible to countersteer either for the humor impared p pphhhhhtttttt concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich cc sportster ol sport for sale dod sr spike the garage rat ama queued for an m fssnoc two jousts and a gather big fun kspt ma bell cool as a rule but sometimes e mail txd able mkt com com h lewis disclaimer com takes no responsibility for opinions preceding this
rec.motorcycles	honda cbr for sale for sale honda cbr hurricane i bought the bike at the end of last summer and although i love it the bills are forcing me to part with it the bike has a little more than miles on it and runs very strong it is in nead of a tune up and possibly break pads but the rubber is good i am also tossing in a tankbag and a kiwi helmet asking or best offer add hits newspaper and micronews interested parties can call during the day and in the evenings no later than pm
rec.motorcycles	re traffic morons in uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes nmm from nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen nmm subject how to act in front of traffic jerks i ve found that an effective strategy is to flash my brake light by pumping the pedal you will obviously need a bit of free play in your brake pedal to do this it seems that even the most brain dead idiot can usually discern that a flashing red light directly in front of him her it may mean that something is wrong i see one thing wrong with your strategy the boy who cried wolf jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	re cb c with flames out the exhaust in article apr research nj nec com chris behanna behanna syl nj nec com writes in article apr bnr ca dave dal farra gpz bnr ca writes reminds me of a great editorial by bruce reeve a couple months ago in cycle canada he was so pissed off with cops pulling over speeders in dangerous spots and often blind corners that one day he decided to get revenge cruising on a factory loaner zzr test bike he noticed a cop had pulled over a motorist on an on or off ramp with almost no shoulder being a bright lad he hit his bike s kill switch just before passing the cop who happened to be bending towards the offending motorist there by exposing his glutes to the passing world with his ignition system now dead he pumped his throtle two or three times to fill his exhaust canister s with volatile raw fuel all it took was a stab at the kill switch to re light the ignition and send a flame in sargeant swell s direction i wonder if any cycle cops read cycle canada although i agree with the spirit of the action i do hope that the rider ponied up the or so it takes to replace the exhaust system he just destroyed the owner s manual explicitly warns against such behavior for exactly that reason you can destroy your muflers that way later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs ya fat chance the offending rider was a moto journalist those guys can sell hundreds of bikes with one stroke of the pen and as such get away with murder when it comes to test bikes one way or the other it was probably worth the early expiration of one mufler to see a bone head get his butt baked dave d f it s true they say that money talks when mine spoke it said buy me a drink
rec.motorcycles	how to buy a first bike etc there have been a lot of posts lately about i wanna buy my first bike is a gsxr zx cbr fzr a good bike to learn on etc i think i m going to put together a faq on buying a new bike ravi used to post one all the time bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	stuff for sale is gone thanks to all who responded the three items electric vest aerostitch suit and scarf are all spoken for gary gary wasserman a completely irrational attraction to bmw bikes interleaf inc prospect place hillside ave waltham ma grw ileaf com x fax dod
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles in article apr alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov gregory humphreys writes i only have about to work with so that would have to cover everything bike helmet anything else that i m too ignorant to know i need to buy the following numbers are approximate and will no doubt get me flamed helmet new but cheap jacket used or very cheap gloves nothing special motorcycle safety foundation riding course a must that leaves you between and depending on the accuracy of my numbers to buy a used bike get it registered get it insured and get it running properly i d say you re cutting it close perhaps if your parents are reasonable and you indicated your wish to learn to ride safely you could get them to pick up the cost of the msf course and some of the safety gear early holiday presents or whatever those are one time well long term anyway investments and you could spend your money on the actual bike insurance registration and maintenance curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re fortune guzzler barred from bars in article c qtvl m dartvax dartmouth edu russell p hughes dartmouth edu knicker twister writes in article apr bnr ca npet bnr ca nick pettefar writes with regards to the pub brawl he might have a history of such things just because he was a biker doesn t make him out to be a reasonable person even the dod might object to him joining who knows if he had a history of such things why was it not mentioned in the article and why did they present the irrelevant detail of where he got his drinking money from i can t say exactly who is at fault here but from where i sit is looks like we re seeing the results either of the law going way out of hand or of shoddy journalism if the law wants to attach strings to how you spend a settlement they should put the money in trust they don t so i would assume it s perfectly legitimate to drink it away though i wouldn t spend it that way myself david karr karr cs cornell edu
rec.motorcycles	re fortune guzzler barred from bars david karr on the tue apr gmt wibbled in article c qtvl m dartvax dartmouth edu russell p hughes dartmouth edu knicker twister writes in article apr bnr ca npet bnr ca nick pettefar writes with regards to the pub brawl he might have a history of such things just because he was a biker doesn t make him out to be a reasonable person even the dod might object to him joining who knows if he had a history of such things why was it not mentioned in the article and why did they present the irrelevant detail of where he got his drinking money from i can t say exactly who is at fault here but from where i sit is looks like we re seeing the results either of the law going way out of hand or of shoddy journalism if the law wants to attach strings to how you spend a settlement they should put the money in trust they don t so i would assume it s perfectly legitimate to drink it away though i wouldn t spend it that way myself david karr karr cs cornell edu we heard about this from a newspaper article journalists and editors always pick out the most interesting and sensational facts for our delectation as the editor of the sun once said we never let the facts get in the way of a good story you must have noticed how motorcyclists get treated by the press they thrive on hysteria ignorance sensationalism and one upmanship unfortunately there s not enough salt to keep taking a pinch of nick the cynical old biker dod concise oxford leaky new gearbox m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs ask not for whom the bell tolls it tolls for you it s time to get up
rec.motorcycles	re so that s where the oil in my k went tim intrepid gsfc nasa gov tim seiss writes just wanted to say thanks to everyone who sent me e mail or posted a reply to my question on the oil consumption in my k s so what did you decide joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	the best of times the worst of times note this is not about the l a or ny times a few times a year a funny thing happens the bike engine runs perfectly completely smooth not that it runs poorly normally but on these days it is exceptional my theory is that the air density and moisture content of the air are such that i get complete combustion needless to say it puts me in a great mood the mood lasted for about miles heading north on the freeway about a mile or two south of the my throttle stopped responding and i was between lanes nothing to do but make my way over lanes to the shoulder initially by gliding then by pushing at least traffic was heavy enough so that cars did not mind stopping for me turned out to be a screw unscrewed inside my mikuni hs carb i keep hearing that one should keep all of the screws tight on a bike but i never thought that i had to do that on the screws inside of a carb at least it was roadside fixable and i was on my way in hardly any time death is life s way of telling you you ve been fired r geis paul blumstein paulb harley tti com dod abate ama hog doh kd laa marc arrl platypus qrp arpci naswa lwca rcma cala transaction technology inc santa monica ca
rec.motorcycles	re type spesifications cb vfr gt etc vidar olaf solberg vidaros dhhalden no wrote can somebody tell me what all the letter spesifications on motorcycle models really mean example what means the c the b and the r in honda cbr or the v s g l and p in suzuki vs glp honda a v designates a v engine street bike vf for v vt for v twin cb is a street bike with an parallel twin or inline cylinder engine r used to mean race bike but is now also used to mean sport bike cl was for the old steet scramblers street bikes with high pipes cm was a custom street bike cr is dirt only two strokes xl is dual purpose bike xr was dirt only four stroke but now can be a dual purpose bike if it has an l as a suffix gl is a touring bike frank ball ur m frankb sad hp com work hewlett packard fax home valley house drive it xt seca f pl rohnert park ca kc wug law ama dod i m the nra
rec.motorcycles	re hell mets in article apr freenet carleton ca aa freenet carleton ca lloyd carr writes in a previous article maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer says if i don t end up replacing it in the real near future would i do better to wear my totally nondamaged face dot rated cheapie which doesn t fit as well or keep out the wind as well or wearing the shoei rf which is a lot more comfortable keeps the wind out better is quieter but might have some minor damage wear the rf even after a few drops paint chips it is far better than no helmet or a poorly fitting one i ve had many scratches bangs which have been repaired plus i m still confident of the protection the helmet will continue to give me only when you actually see depressions or actual cracks using a magnifying glass should you consider replacement this is not good advice a couple of years i was involved in a low speed getoff in which i landed on my back on the pavement my head helmeted hit the pavement with a clunk leaving a couple of dings and chips in the paint at the point of impact but no other visible damage i called the helmet manufacturer and inquired about damage they said that the way a fiberglass shell works is to first give then delaminate then crack this is the way fiberglass serves to spread the force of the impact over a wider area after the fiberglass has done its thing the crushable foam liner takes care of absorbing hopefully the remaining impact force they told me that the second stage of fiberglass functionality delamination of the glass resin layers can occur with no visible signs either inside or outside of the helmet they suggested that i send them the helmet and they would inspect it including x raying i did so they sent back the helmet with a letter stating that that they could find no damage that would compromise the ability of the helmet to provide maximum protection i suspect that this letter would eliminate their being able to claim prior damage to the helmet in the event i were to sue them the bottom line though is that it appears that a helmets integrity can be compromised with no visible signs the only way to know for sure is to send it back and have it inspected note that some helmet manufacturers provide inspections services and some do not another point to consider when purchasing a lid ken franklin they say there s a heaven for people who wait ama and some say it s better but i say it ain t gwrra i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun y know only the good die young
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article apr megatek com randy megatek com randy davis writes in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes in article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes what does dwi stand for i thought it was dui for driving under influence so here what does w stand for driving while intoxicated actually i beleive dwi normally means driving while impaired rather than intoxicated at least it does in the states i ve lived in this was changed here in louisiana when a girl went to court and won her case by claiming to be stoned on pot not intoxicated on liquor one can be imparied without necessarily being impaired by liquor drugs not enough sleep being a total moron all can impair someone etc i m surprised this got her off the hook perhaps dwi in lousiana is confined to liquor lets just say it is dui here now dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	header paint it seems the miles of trailering in the rain has rusted my bike s headers the metal underneath is solid but i need to sand off the rust coating and repaint the pipes black any recommendations for paint and application of said paint thanks axel
rec.motorcycles	re rgv and posing in article dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes in article spam maths adelaide edu au amydlak spam maths adelaide edu au adam mydlak writes squid deleted helment laws vary from state to state in my state louisiana it is the law i personaly would not go feet on a bike without one law or no law a helment will save your life i ll go feet but i draw the line at i ll see your and raise you doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp new zealand tssc ltd bmw r s bmw r indian a
rec.motorcycles	type spesifications cb vfr gt etc can somebody tell me what all the letter spesifications on motorcycle models really mean example what means the c the b and the r in honda cbr or the v s g l and p in suzuki vs glp i wanna distribute this in our club magazine i want lists of all types but i already knows about harley thanks in advance vidar vidar o solberg norway rock hard ride free we are the proud the few and the true metallibashers
rec.motorcycles	re honda cb f for sale i wanted to let people know that this motorcycle has been sold thanks for your inquiries dave schultz
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack several years ago while driving a cage a dog darted out at a quiet intersection right in front of me but there was enough distance between us so i didn t have to slow down however a nd dog suddenly appeared and collided with my right front bumper and the force of the impact was enough to kill that scottish terrier apparently it was following the st dog henceforth if a dog decides to cross the street keep an eye out for a nd dog as many dogs like to travel in pairs or packs i ve yet to experience a dog chasing me on my black gl i which has a pretty loud oem horn not as good as fiamms but good enuff but the bike is large and heavy enough to run right over one of the smaller nippers while the larger ones would have trouble getting my leg between the saddlebags and engine guards i d def feel more vulnerable on my trump as that d be easier leg chewing target for those mongrels if there s a persistent dog running after bikers despite complaints to the owner i wouldn t be adverse to running over it with my truck as a dogs life isn t worth much imho compared to a child riding a bike who gets knocked to the ground by said dog and dies from a head injury any dog in the neighborhood that s vicious or a public menace running about unleashed is fair game as road kill candidate graeme harrison gharriso hpcc corp hp com dod
rec.motorcycles	help which bikes are short help i ve got a friend shopping for her first motorcycle this is great unfortunately she needs at most a seat this is not great so far the only thing we ve found was an old and unhappy looking kz so it s time to tap the collective memory of all the denizens out there anybody know of models old models and used bikes are not a problem with a or lower seat and since she has to make this difficult she would prefer not to end up with a cruiser so there s bonus points for listing tiny standards i seem to remember a thread with a point similar to this passing through several months ago did anybody keep that list thanks gregory bean dod bean ncar ucar edu in fact everything s got that big reverb sound
rec.motorcycles	re cb c with flames out the exhaust from article c quw btq ux cso uiuc edu by mikeh ux cso uiuc edu mike hollyman hi i have an cb custom that i just replaced the cylinder head gasket on now when i put it back together again it wouldn t idle at all it was only running on cylinders and it would backfire and spit flames out the exhaust on the right side the exhaust is mac i bought new plugs today and it runs very rough and still won t idle i am quite sure the fine tune knobs on the carbs are messed up i checked the timing it was fine so i advanced it a little and that didn t help i assume the carbs need to be synched can i buy a kit and do this myself if so what kit is the best for the price any other suggestions i dont think its the carbs that are out i would suspect that the cam timing is out as you say that you had the head off that would make sense to me ian just my emu s worth ian deeley whatever you do will be school of engineering insignificant but its very university of sussex ooo important that you do it england anon
rec.motorcycles	re extraordinary footpeg engineering in a previous article exb csdvax csd unsw edu au says okay dod ers here s a goddamn mystery for ya today i was turning a degree corner just like on any other day but there was a slight difference a rough spot right in my path caused the suspension to compress in mid corner and some part of the bike hit the ground with a very tangible thunk i pulled over at first opportunity to sus out the damage some deleted barry manor dod confused accidental peg scraper check the bottom of your pipes barry suspect that is what may have hit i did the same a few years past thought it was the peg but found the bottom of my pipe has made contact showed a good sized dent scratch believe you d feel the suddent change on your foot if the peg had bumped as for the piece missing contribute that to vibration loss yep the same thing happened to me on my old honda twinstar mike maser dod squid rating pinetree rd sidney b c can hopalonga twinfart yuka yuka excess v l j wish list tridump mucho guzler burley home thumpison or bimotamoeba work mmaser sirius uvic ca joke of the month what did the gay say to the university of victoria indian chief news rec motorcycles answer can i bum a couple bucks
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes in article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes what does dwi stand for i thought it was dui for driving under influence so here what does w stand for driving while intoxicated actually i beleive dwi normally means driving while impaired rather than intoxicated at least it does in the states i ve lived in this was changed here in louisiana when a girl went to court and won her case by claiming to be stoned on pot not intoxicated on liquor one can be imparied without necessarily being impaired by liquor drugs not enough sleep being a total moron all can impair someone etc i m surprised this got her off the hook perhaps dwi in lousiana is confined to liquor randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	looking for movies w bikes folks i am assembling info for a film criticism class final project essentially i need any all movies that use motos in any substantial capacity ie fallen angles t h d the marlboro man raising arizona etc any help you fellow r m ers could give me would be much preciated btw a summary of bike s or plot is helpful but not necessary thanx erc c eric sundheim csundh ursa calvin edu grandrapids mi usa hondo vfr f dod
rec.motorcycles	traffic morons nmm from nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen nmm subject how to act in front of traffic jerks nmm the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to nmm the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was nmm driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i nmm calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the nmm window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why nmm did i do the right thing nmm yours truly nmm niels mikkel well sounds great to me when i have a real bdi cager tailgating me i ve found that an effective strategy is to flash my brake light by pumping the pedal you will obviously need a bit of free play in your brake pedal to do this it seems that even the most brain dead idiot can usually discern that a flashing red light directly in front of him her it may mean that something is wrong the two problems i d see with your strategy is that the red light may change before you can get anything meaningful out of your mouth or the occupant s may take exception to your opinions and demonstrate such physically on you or your now parked bike admittedly the latter is a slim chance but it would be enough to give me pause slmr a sometimes you get to be the windshield sometimes the bug computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	new to motorcycles hello everyone i m new to motorcycles so no flames please i don t have my bike yet so i need a few pieces of information i only have about to work with so that would have to cover everything bike helmet anything else that i m too ignorant to know i need to buy what is buying a bike going to do to my insurance i turn in about a month so my parents have been taking care of my insurance up till now and i need a comprehensive list of costs that buying a motorcycle is going to insure i live in washington dc if that makes a difference any recommendations on what i should buy where i should look for it in dc as i imagine it is in every other state ok ok we re not a state we re not bitter you take the written test first and then get a learners permit however i m wondering how one goes about learning to ride the bike proficiently enough so as to a get a liscence and b not kill oneself i don t know anyone with a bike who could teach me and the most advice i ve heard is either do you live near a field or do you have a friend with a pickup truck the answers to both of which are no do i just ride around my neighborhood and hope for the best i kind of live in a residential area but it s not suburbs it s still the big city and i m about a mile from downtown so that doesn t seem too viable any stories on how you all learned thanks for any replies in advance greg humphreys wq meant to do that damn autoindent greg humphreys this must be thursday i never national institutes of health could get the hang of thursdays gregh alw nih gov arthur dent
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter in article qt jo fj vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes hey i wasn t picking on morgan they use old technology that s all i said there s nothing wrong with using old technology people still use shovels to dig holes well you really can t dig a hole with a stock shovel you at least need some performance mods like stroking and cams besides it s real bad on the rear tire dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist writes in article tekgen bv tek com davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist writes rolls royce owned by a non british firm ye gods that would be the end of civilization as we know it why not ford owns aston martin and jaguar general motors owns lotus and vauxhall rover is only owned by honda yes it s a minor blasphemy that u s companies would on the likes of a m jaguar or sob lotus it s outright sacrilege for rr to have non british ownership it s a fundamental thing i think there is a legal clause in the rr name regardless of who owns it it must be a british company owner i e ba can sell the company but not the name kevinh hasler ascom ch
rec.motorcycles	dod books anyone around here read this yet does anita have a number title software measurement for dod systems recommendations for initial core measures anita d carleton et al subject software engineering computer programming management author carleton anita d author carnegie mellon university software engineering institute publ pittsburgh pa carnegie mellon university software engineering institute p tony these opinions are nothing but my own and i may not even want them antonio salerno the heart the liver the spleen the pancreas all antonio j salerno att com these miraculous organs work in total darkness david letterman
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle detailing tip in article apr hemlock cray com ant palm cray com tony jones writes a note to users of plexi fairings if the light hits some of these just right they become a giant magnifing glass and will melt a hole in your guage pod dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorc an apartment complex where i used to live tried this only they put the thing over the driver s window so they couldn t miss it a friend damned near wrecked on the way home one night her vision blocked by the sticker i suggested to the manager the enormous liability they were assuming by pulling that stunt she claimed it was the driver who was at fault for illegally parking in the first place that would probably be good for a laugh or two in court before they found her liable for serious seems to me that the driver was driving the vehicle visually impaired isn t that like not scraping ice and snow off your windshield and such say that s another thing that bugs me why don t people scrape their damn windows i ve seen people driving cars with barely the driver s half of the windshield cleared nothing else cleared this seems pretty stupid and isn t there something probably varies state to state that says a certain percentage of the glass must be clear oh well brad thone systems consultant systems service enterprises st louis mo c bt wuvmd wustl edu c bt wuvmd bitnet
rec.motorcycles	re fortune guzzler barred from bars in article apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes assuming david didn t know that it can be done one legged i too would in new orleans la there was a company making motorcycles for wheelchair bound people the rig consists of a flat bed sidecar rig that the wheelchair can be clamped to the car has a set of hand controls mounted on conventional handlebars looks wierd as hell to see this legless guy driving the rig from the car while his girlfriend sits on the bike as a passenger dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes formal training is in my view absolutely essential if you re going to be able to ride a bike properly and safely but by including countersteering theory in newbie courses we are confusing people unnecessarily right at the time when there are far more important matters for them to learn and that was my original point mike while i agree with you on that formal training is essential for safe riding i disagree strongly with your original point the point of formal training must be to prepare riders for the road preparedness is in my opinion to know as much as possible so to exclude some aspects of riding a bike in a course is wrong imho now to countersteering in particular countersteering is something that must be trained a common reaction among new bikers or bicycle riders in an emergency situation is to steer the motorcycle like a bicycle as we know this makes the motorcycle go in the direction opposite to what was intended needless to say this is dangerous i have a specific example a rider in a left turn the rider thinks he she is to close to the right shoulder of the road and tries to steer the motorcycle to the left by pulling the left handle and pushing the right handle the motorcycle straightens up and goes off the road a worse scenario the same rider same turn in the middle of the turn the rider sees a truck coming towards him her the panicking rider tries to steer the motorcycle away from the truck and crashes right into it the main function of a riding course is to teach how to avoid emergency situations and what to do if in one thus the knowledge and training of countersteering is imho a must in any riding course staal idt unit no
rec.motorcycles	re help which bikes are short in rec motorcycles bean ra cgd ucar edu gregory bean writes help i ve got a friend shopping for her first motorcycle this is great unfortunately she needs at most a seat this is not great so far the only thing we ve found was an old and unhappy looking kz i had a kz and thought it was the best bike i ve ever ridden and mind you i ve ridden many bikes i seem to remember a thread with a point similar to this passing through several months ago did anybody keep that list you must be mistaken no thread in this group has ever had a point seriously there are many short bikes out there what style bike and how much money does she have my so is and rides her cb or my hawk gt with ease most cruisers are low slung ysr s are real short too rich sturges h nswc carderock division w i speak for no one else and listen to the same
rec.motorcycles	re insurance and lotsa points cjackson curtis jackson cjackson adobe com writes cjackson i am very glad to know that none of you judgemental little shits has cjackson ridden driven when too tired sleepy hungover angry or distracted cjackson in the last years why if you had then you might be just as guilty some of us not so judgmental little shits don t drive ride when we re impaired i stopped doing that sort of thing when a good friend of mine got killed by a drunk driver who failed to stop for a red and drove through the side of her volvo in his caddy then again i suspect most of the responsible adults on the net don t bother posting in flame wars on rec moto cjackson there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom cjackson in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson he also owned slaves kept some as forced concubines and had enough resources to do what he wanted without fear of reprisal then again he also smoked dope jet netcom com j eric townsend r r dod hafta kill you this is my fun account work email goes to jet nas nasa gov you got to put down the ducky if you wanna play saxophone skate unix or die boyo
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry virago
rec.motorcycles	re type spesifications cb vfr gt etc in article c sk d c p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com frank ball writes honda a v designates a v engine street bike vf for v vt for v twin so how about my honda hawk nt it s a twin but not called a vt curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re more moa stuff like the ra from what i ve seen in my years as an moa member most of the folks in the ra are also in the moa i guess it s called covering all the bases to get some idea of what is really happening how else does one think the ra gets all the juicey news about what s happen inside the moa nihilism isn t for everyone not that it really matters craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador and ya i finally sent my bucks into the ra too real bmw s have two wheels politically correct statement dod
rec.motorcycles	electricty sigha trying to figure out a way to put a halogen beam on my cb t are there any easy ways to do this i e a slip in bulb replacement was told by a guy at the bike shop that my not damn near bright enough incandescent beam might be caused by a perma low battery so i went and picked up this cheapo motorcycle battery and charging system tester hook it up to the battery it s got lights on very good charge start the engine to test the charging system and it doesn t even register it s supposed to light or lights if everything is ok but it stays down at the same point as just the battery my question here is if indeed my charging system is just plain messed up how the heck is the battery staying fully charged i d think it would be darned near dead from supporting my lights etc do the cb t s have a problem with their charging system are they just generally slower charging than what is normal for bigger bikes is there an easy fix for this happy noise put miles on my bike this weekend finally got myass an endorsement which is really good because my cage just quit running worth a damn and i won t have money to repair it until the first and the weatherman says bright and sunny all week chance of rain on friday big grin bugs in teeth
rec.motorcycles	good reasons to wave at each other one of those morning just getting the coffee in me thoughts waving at other bikers makes more sense than just hey how s it going nice to meet you on the road have a good ride if you re watching for other bikes to wave to it means your attention is on the road where it should be and you re more likely to see cages it keeps you in the habit of watching really carefully for bikes when you re in a cage this is a good thing
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter kevinh on the tue apr gmt wibbled in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist writes in article tekgen bv tek com davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist writes rolls royce owned by a non british firm ye gods that would be the end of civilization as we know it why not ford owns aston martin and jaguar general motors owns lotus and vauxhall rover is only owned by honda yes it s a minor blasphemy that u s companies would on the likes of a m jaguar or sob lotus it s outright sacrilege for rr to have non british ownership it s a fundamental thing i think there is a legal clause in the rr name regardless of who owns it it must be a british company owner i e ba can sell the company but not the name kevinh hasler ascom ch i don t believe that ba have anything to do with rr it s a seperate company from the rr aero engine company i think that the government own a stake unfortunately they owned a stake of jaguar too until they decided to make a quick buck and sold it to ford bastards this is definitely the ultimate arthur daley government nick the cynical biker dod concise oxford leaky gearbox m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re the best of times the worst of times in apr ttinews tti com paulb harley tti com paul blumstein writes note this is not about the l a or ny times turned out to be a screw unscrewed inside my mikuni hs carb i keep hearing that one should keep all of the screws tight on a bike but i never thought that i had to do that on the screws inside of a carb at least it was roadside fixable and i was on my way in hardly any time you better check all the screws in that carb before you suck one into a jug and munge a piston or valve i ve seen it happen before matthew
rec.motorcycles	cobra locks i was posting to alt locksmithing about the best methods for securing a motorcycle i got several responses referring to the cobra lock described below has anyone come across a store carrying this lock in the chicago area any other feedback from someone who has used this thanks for any info steve in article r innraj shelley u washington edu basiji stein u washington edu david basiji writes incidentally the best lock i ve found for bikes is the cobra lock it s a cable which is shrouded by an articulated hardened steel sleeve the lock itself is cylindrical and the locking pawl engages the joints at the articulation points so the chain can be adjusted like handcuffs you can t get any leverage on the lock to break it open and the cylinder is well protected i wouldn t want to cut one of these without a torch and or a vice and heavy duty cutting wheel steve bunis sun microsystems dod st itasca il ama kz
rec.motorcycles	so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff i was just wondering if there were any law officers that read this i have several questions i would like to ask pertaining to motorcycles and cops and please don t say get a vehicle code go to your local station or obvious things like that my questions would not be found in those places nor answered face to face with a real live in the flesh cop if your brother had a friend who had a cousin whos father was a cop etc don t bother writing in thanks
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes in article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes folks i am assembling info for a film criticism class final project essentially i need any all movies that use motos in any substantial capacity ie fallen angles t h d the marlboro man raising arizona etc any help you fellow r m ers could give me would be much preciated btw a summary of bike s or plot is helpful but not necessary easy rider harleys drugs rednecks new orleans mad max violence dod wanna be s time rider honda thumper time travel on any sunday documentary about dirtbike racers great the great escape steve mcqueen nazis rebel without a cause james dean future dod ers i think the last two are right they are old movies i haven t seen in years dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi msd lmsc lockheed com j r laferriere writes i was just wondering if there were any law officers that read this i have several questions i would like to ask pertaining to motorcycles and cops and please don t say get a vehicle code go to your local station or obvious things like that my questions would not be found in those places nor answered face to face with a real live in the flesh cop if your brother had a friend who had a cousin whos father was a cop etc don t bother writing in thanks i just gotta ask what are these questions you want to ask an active cop working on your dod qualfications b dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re route suggestions in article qmm dinnnlg cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com steve bunis chicago writes e i i e after this point the route is presently undetermined into pennsylvania new york and back to chicago by suggestions if you do make it into new york state the palisades interstate parkway is a pleasant ride beautiful scenery good road surface minimal traffic you may also want to take a sidetrip along seven lakes drive just off the parkway for the same reasons plus the road sweeps up and down along the hills with sweeping turns under old forest canopy mitch corrado bell communications research dec mdc panther tnds bellcore com wreck mad vax the code warrior
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles in article apr alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov gregory humphreys writes hello everyone i m new to motorcycles so no flames please i don t have my bike yet so i need a few pieces of information any stories on how you all learned i ll tell you my story as an example of what not to do early in i took some riding lessons from my college roommate on his old honda cb t he had taken the msf beginner s course so i actually learned some of what i needed to know to ride i proceeded to buy a beat up honda cl for and a helmet and rode around wearing this and a cotton windbreaker then i decided to invest in a full face helmet first smart move sometime around then i also passed my road test on may i got caught in a rainstorm on my way home from a mile trip entering the town where i lived a rather urban suburb i had to stop suddenly for a red light that i noticed too late skidded the rear tire out and was ejected face upward into the oncoming lane of traffic fortunately for me the oncoming traffic was also stopped for the same red light otherwise i might have slid under a car and been killed now this is anecdotal evidence to be sure but i later took the experienced rider course from the msf and saw that earlier training could have helped me greatly in your case the need is even greater since you have nobody to help you practice even the most basic stuff as i did so my advice is to take the msf beginner s course first thing i wouldn t even buy a bike until you ve taken the course unless you happen to pick up a real good deal and can store it someplace until you re ready to use it i only have about to work with so that would have to cover everything bike helmet anything else that i m too ignorant to know i need to buy while you re waiting to take the course it might take a few weeks in dc as i recall there were always waiting lists in boston could you save up some more money to start out right say for riding gear plus the cost bike plus maybe guess to a mechanic to make sure the machine is safe assuming you economize by buying some old beat up machine from a private individual plus insurance plus registration and licensing fees plus the course you re looking at maybe not including the bike itself and a reserve for ongoing maintenance what is buying a bike going to do to my insurance i turn in about a month so my parents have been taking care of my insurance up till now and i need a comprehensive list of costs that buying a motorcycle is going to insure i live in washington dc if that makes a difference i pay about insurance now upstate ny but it was closer to in boston more urban for decent insurance including substantial coverage for liability which you want unless you plan always to be poor i d guess dc is more like boston than like a rural area ergo more expensive any recommendations on what i should buy where i should look for it there used to be annual buyer s guides in the usual motorcycle magazines i found those helpful in getting an idea of what new or recent models might be available you could probably look through past issues to size up what used bikes might be available my first bike was years old when i bought it so i went on my friend s advice instead also look at the bikes that you see people riding or that are parked on the street i basically settled on my present bike by noticing that there were a lot of high mileage bmw s running around and they were generally set up the way i wanted nothing wrong with talking to various dealers in your area or visiting showrooms dealers in the boston area at least when i was shopping were very nice about letting you look around their showrooms and quoting prices for bikes that weren t the latest models hence cheaper although i ended up buying both bikes in private sales david karr karr cs cornell edu bmw r dod also bmwmoa nra aclu et al
rec.motorcycles	re help which bikes are short in article apr ncar ucar edu bean ra cgd ucar edu gregory bean writes help i ve got a friend shopping for her first motorcycle this is great unfortunately she needs at most a seat this is not great so far the only thing we ve found was an old and unhappy looking kz look for a happier looking kz suzuki used to have an l designation for example my former boss had a gs l which had a seat a couple inches lower than the regular gs but it was certainly no cruiser david karr karr cs cornell edu bmw r dod also bmwmoa nra aclu et al
rec.motorcycles	re bike for sale in ma usa in article apr zorro tyngsboro ma us jd zorro tyngsboro ma us jeff derienzo writes i ve recently become father of twins i don t think i can afford to keep bikes and babies both babies are staying so of the harleys is going xlhd mi hey it was my wife s bike well that was pretty uncalled for no smile is our harley manhood feeling challenged jeff derienzo this is where i wanna sit and buy you a drink someday temple of the dog sea bass sears scs cunixb cc columbia edu dod stanley id yamaha xs f bmw r s toyota runner nyc ny
rec.motorcycles	msf program where could someone mail me the archive location of the msf program for an ibm right thanks this is where i wanna sit and buy you a drink someday temple of the dog sea bass sears scs cunixb cc columbia edu dod stanley id yamaha xs f bmw r s toyota runner nyc ny
rec.motorcycles	re story lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes allowed yes there is a god no open containers on the street was the signs in the bars yeah right the or so cops on hand for the couple of thousand of bikers in a block main street were not citing anyone the street was filled with empty cans at least feet deep in the gutter the crowd was raisin hell tittie shows everywhere can you say party and still we wonder why they stereotype us erc whacha mean we ifin they whom ever they are want to stereotype me as one that likes to drink beer and watch lovely ladies display their beautiful bodies i like that stereotype if you were refering stereotype to infer a negative you noticed we didn t rape pillage or burn down the town we also left mucho bucks as in money with the town me thinks the town likes us least they said so lynn hall nos bros
rec.motorcycles	re traffic morons in article c shd lh athena cs uga edu ahatcher athena cs uga edu allan hatcher wrote you can t make a citizens arrest on anything but a felony i m not sure that s true let me rephrase you can file a complaint which will bring the person into court as i understand it a citizens arrest does not have to be the physical detention of the person better now john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this from article c px n kw murdoch acc virginia edu by cdw t dayhoff med virginia edu dances with federal rangers in article rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes cdw t dayhoff med virginia edu dances with federal rangers writes i m going to buy a bmw just to cast a vote for groucho i thought you were gonna buy a bmw for its superior power and handling yes but the i was just a tad out of my price range obmotowashing is it just me or does everyone cut their finger s on the evil cotterpin tm lurking somewhere in the dark recesses of the back end of the bike when giving the prized moto a bath i seem to slice the pinkie of one hand or the other every time both of them this time ride safe send me your old moa rags y all cliff weston dod seca ii i thought it might be cool to have the whole bike done in powder coat like maybe a black undercoat with neon splatter or something brian w simmons it s you beemers have no ec tm jeff campbell n wxs r frog sarvax cmhnet org
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article r ja dpa news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu john r daker wrote in a previous article xlyx vax cit cornell edu says mike terry asks is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground this is true as evinced by the popularity of shaft drive drag bikes john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re cobra locks in article r b rinnale cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com writes i was posting to alt locksmithing about the best methods for securing a motorcycle i got several responses referring to the cobra lock described below has anyone come across a store carrying this lock in the chicago area it is available through some dealerships who in turn have to back order it from the manufacturer directly each one is made to order at least if you get a nonstandard length standard is i believe any other feedback from someone who has used this see below in article r innraj shelley u washington edu basiji stein u washington edu david basiji writes incidentally the best lock i ve found for bikes is the cobra lock it s a cable which is shrouded by an articulated hardened steel sleeve the lock itself is cylindrical and the locking pawl engages the joints at the articulation points so the chain can be adjusted like handcuffs you can t get any leverage on the lock to break it open and the cylinder is well protected i wouldn t want to cut one of these without a torch and or a vice and heavy duty cutting wheel i have a long cobralinks lock that i used to use for my harley she doesn t get out much anymore so i don t use the lock that often anymore it is made of articulated steel shells covering seven strands of steel cable it is probably enough to stop all the joyriders but unfortunately professionals can open it rather easily freeze a link break frozen link with your favorite method hammers work well snip through the steel cables which i have on authority are frightfully thin with a set of boltcutters for the same money you can get a kryptonite cable lock which is anywhere from to thick steel cable looks like steel rope shielded in a flexible covering to protect your bike s finish and has a barrel type locking mechanism i don t know if it s adjustable but my source says it s more difficult to pick than most locks and the cable tends to squish flat in bolt cutter jaws rather than shear model all bets are off if the thief has a die grinder with a cutoff wheel even the most durable locks tested yield to this tool in less than one minute fyi i ll be getting a krypto cable next paycheck later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re a point for helmet law is a point for mc b in article prcrs prc com terry prcrs prc com terry cunningham writes i know of no law either on the books or proposed that bans motorcycles from any place that i want to go to many private places ban bikes for example the famous mile drive at the monterrey peninsula and i have stayed at resorts that sported a no motorcycles allowed sign at the entrance and there have been public places call the ama and ask for jim bensberg sp or any one else in their legislative office they will recound the many public places that they had to bring to court to reverse their ban on bikes that includes everything from public parks to full cities there are probably a few fights on their books as we now speak that is another good reason to donate to their legislative fund death is life s way of telling you you ve been fired r geis paul blumstein paulb harley tti com dod abate ama hog doh kd laa marc arrl platypus qrp arpci naswa lwca rcma cala transaction technology inc santa monica ca
rec.motorcycles	re cobra locks you may find it useful this is a repost the original sender is at the bottom cut here article of rec motorcycles path scrumpy bnrgate corpgate news utdallas edu hermes chpc utexas edu cs ute exas edu swrinde mips pacbell com iggy gw vitalink com widener eff ibmpc cug pipex unipalm uknet cf cm cybaswan eeharvey from eeharvey cybaswan uucp i t harvey newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re best way to lock a bike message id cybaswan uucp date jul gmt references jul usenet ins cwru edu lines these are the figures from the performance bikes lock test taken without permission of course the price is for comparison all the cable locks have some sort of armour the chain locks are padlock and chain each lock was tested for a maximum of ten minutes secs for each test bj bottle jack cd cutting disc bc bolt croppers gas gas flame the table should really be split into immoblisers for a while and lock to somethings for a short while to make comparisons type weight bj cd bc gas total price kg sec sec sec sec sec pounds arm folding cyclelok bar abus steel o cable flex oxford cable revolver abus diskus chain arm folding cyclelok bar abus extra u lock cobra cable ft abus closed chain shackle kryptonite u lock k oxford u lock magnum disclock disc n a n a lock abus hb u lock mini block disc n a n a lock pretty depressing reading i think a good lock and some common sense about where and when you park your bike is the only answer i ve spent all my spare time over the last two weeks landscaping trashing the garden of my and two friends with bikes new house to accommodate our three bikes in relative security never underestimate how much room a bike requires to manouver in a walled area anyway since the weekend there are only two bikes and no he didn t use his abus closed shackle lock it was too much hassle to take with him when visiting his parents a minimum wait of weeks if they don t decide to investigate for the insurance company to make an offer and for the real haggling to begin abus are a german company and it would seem not well represented in the us but very common in the uk the uk distributor given in the above article is michael brandon ltd oliver crescent hawick roxburgh td bj tel the uk distributors for the other locks can also given if required don t lose it ian ian harvey university college swansea too old to rock n roll eeharvey uk ac swan pyr too young to die gs e
rec.motorcycles	countersteering sans hands so how do i steer when my hands aren t on the bars open budweiser in left hand camel cigarette in the right no feet allowed if i lean and the bike turns am i countersteering is countersteering like benchracing only with a taller seat so your feet aren t on the floor rick
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr vax cit cornell edu xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry no at least that s what i told the nasa rent a cop that stopped me because he swore i was lifting it up he didn t completely buy the part about water in the carbs either phil stone new address pstone well sf ca us r st motorcycles ok
rec.motorcycles	re route suggestions in article apr porthos cc bellcore com mdc pyuxe cc bellcore com corrado mitchell writes in article qmm dinnnlg cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com steve bunis chicago writes e i i e after this point the route is presently undetermined into pennsylvania new york and back to chicago by suggestions if you do make it into new york state the palisades interstate parkway is a pleasant ride beautiful scenery good road surface minimal traffic you been a while since you hit the pip the pavement at least until around exit is for sh t these days i think it must have taken a beating this winter because i don t remember it being this bad it s all breaking apart and there are some serious potholes now of course there are also the storm drains that are in your lane as opposed to on the side of the road talk about annoying cost saving measures as for traffic don t try it around on weekdays outbound rush hour happens inbound too as there are many bdc s mitch corrado dec mdc panther tnds bellcore com this is where i wanna sit and buy you a drink someday temple of the dog sea bass sears scs cunixb cc columbia edu dod stanley id yamaha xs f bmw r s toyota runner nyc ny
rec.motorcycles	re hell mets in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes having talked to a couple people about helmets dropping i m getting about don t sweat it you might think about replacing it and the other don t ride with it go without a helmet first is there any way to tell if a helmet is damaged structurally i dropped it about feet to cement off my seat chipped the paint didn t seem to screw up the actual shell i d bet the price of the helmet that it s okay from feet or higher maybe not if i don t end up replacing it in the real near future would i do better to wear my totally nondamaged face dot rated cheapie which doesn t fit as well or keep out the wind as well or wearing the shoei rf which is a lot more comfortable keeps the wind out better is quieter but might have some minor damage i d wear the full facer but then i d be way more worried about wind blast in the face and inability to hear police sirens than the helmet being a little damaged also what would you all reccomend as far as good helmets i m slightly disappointed by how badly the shoei has scratched etc from not being bloody careful about it and how little impact it took to chip the paint and arguably mess it up period looking at a really good full face with good venting wind protection i like the shoei style kinda like the norton one i saw awhile back too but suspect i m going to have to get a much more expensive helmet if i want to not replace it every time i m not being careful where i set it down well my next helmet will be subject to it fitting well an agv sukhoi that s just because i like the looks my current one is a shoei task and it s getting a little old and i crashed in it once a couple of years ago no hard impact to head my hip took care of that if price was a consideration i d get a kiwi k i hear they are both good and cheap christ i don t treat my head as carefully as i treated the shoei as far as tossing it down and i don t have any bruises on it be mildly mildly paranoid about the helmet but don t get carried away there are people on the net like those you mentioned that do not consistently live on our planet regards charles dod rz within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article apr cs cornell edu karr cs cornell edu david karr writes in article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes no no no no all i am saying is that you don t even need to tell people the technique of countersteering cos they will do it intuitively the first time they try to go round a corner some will and others will steer with their tuchuses i don t know how much the teaching of countersteering in the beginner course really helps the tuchus steerers i was one i guess that i always steered a bicycle that way and i only got the hang of countersteering in normal riding after the course i could do the countersteering swerves in the course no problem but i only started using it in my normal riding when i decided that my turning at speed off ramps and the like was a lot more difficult that it should have been i knew how it works although that s currently up for debate definitely knew that it works as i could do it in swerves but only figured it out later in my normal riding just a data point i think that it s not a bad idea to bring the idea up but it s best to let everyone tuchus steer for the first lesson or two so they can learn to shift gears before they have to worry about proper handlebar technique countersteering in fact my experienced rider course instructors claimed that they could get on behind a new rider and make the bike turn to whichever side they wanted just by shifting their weight around even when the operator was trying to turn in the opposite direction i admit i ve never actually seen this i have in our beginner course we had passenger training sometime during the lesson the instructor would hop on the back of the bike and the student would take him for a ride if the student did not give the instructor the you are a sack of potatoes passenger speech the instructor would steer the bike and make a general nuisance of himself it was amusing to watch i m just happy that it didn t happen to me i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re question about helmets in article qmnp inn v mojo eng umd edu oconnor eng umd edu mark o connor writes on the other side of the fence i owned a bieffe off road helmet took what i would consider a minor fall and had visible damage to the shell yes the helmet did its job but the damage impact ratio was scary i own bell moto now have taken impacts on order of twice the bieffe impact we do this frequently in mx and don t even have a scratch on it after two seasons my recommendation is to buy high quality gear ymmv when your helmetted nogin hits an immoveabe object there are only four things to dissipate the energy the immoveable object the helmet shell the helmet liner the rider s head the rider s ego ok five assuming that the helmet head assembly takes the same impact if the shell cracks in one case then in the other the liner must be dented or the head gets jiggled if it s the the liner that s dented the helmet is just as toast as if the shell were cracked it won t absorb energy form an impact in that area if it s the head that s getting jiggled maybe the new gear isn t of as high quality after all i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes in article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes ok hold on a second and clarify something for me what does dwi stand for i thought it was dui for driving under influence so here what does w stand for driving while intoxicated this was changed here in louisiana when a girl went to court and won her case by claiming to be stoned on pot not intoxicated on liquor here it s driving while impaired that about covers everything i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re wanted advice for new cylist in article c r ey mq srgenprp sr hp com blaisec sr hp com blaise cirelli writes i m thinking of buying a motorcycle whenever i tell people this i usually get an answer like why do you want to do that my brother sister cousin knows somebody who had a motorcycle and now they are brain dead as a result of an accident so the question i have is how dangerous is riding it s exactly as dangerous as it looks you re hard to see and have little protection keeping out of trouble means knowing your limits keeping your machine in good shape and being able to predict and make up for every stupid move that drivers make out there we deal with it because it s fun but staying alive takes a conscious effort i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re insurance and lotsa points in article apr bcars a bnr ca keithh bnr ca keith hanlan writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well it looks like i m f cked for insurance i had a dwi in and for the beemer as a rec vehicle it ll cost me almost bucks to insure year now what do i do sell the bike and the car and start taking the bus that way you can keep drinking which seems to be where your priorities lay i expect that enough of us on this list have lost friends because of driving drunks that our collective sympathy will be somewhat muted look guy i doubt anyone here approves of drunk driving but if he s been caught and convicted and punished maybe you ought to lighten up i mean it isn t like most of us haven t had a few and then ridden or driven home we just didn t get caught and i can speak for myself and say it will never happen again but that is beside the point in answer to the original poster i d insure whatever vehicle is cheapest and can get you to and from work and suffer through it for a few years til your rates drop and don t drink and drive i had one friend killed by a drunk and i was rear ended by one totaling my bike bent frame and only failing to kill me because i had an eye on my mirror while i waited at the stoplight regards charles dod rz within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article c pntm co cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes this tactic depends for its effectiveness on the dog s conformance to a psychological norm that may not actually apply to a particular dog i ve tried it with some success before but it won t work on a charlie manson dog or one that s really really stupid a large irish setter taught me this in my yard apparently his territory one day i m sure he was playing a game with me the game was probably kill the very angry neighbor before he can dispense the terrible punishment what a dog weighs lb maybe at max you can t handle it you have i presume thumbs grapple with it and tear it s head off sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages regards charles dod rz within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes on apr gmt xlyx vax cit cornell edu said is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive yes but the rear wheel comes off the ground not the front see it just hops into the air figure john stafford sure you can do wheelies with a shaft drive bike i had a bmw r rs that was a wheelie monster of course it didn t have the initial power burst to just twist it into the air i had to pop the clutch i also had to replace front fork seals a few times as well the fairing is a bit heavy to be slamming down onto those little stantion tubes all the time but let me give you fair warning i trashed the ring pinion gear in the final drive of my k i assume doing wheelies and this was no cheap fix either there is some kind of slip device in the shaft to prevent it from breaking unfortunately it didn t save the gears on the topic of wheelies the other day i saw a kid on a big hurricane do a stoppy or rear wheelie man he had the rear end on this bike up about feet off the ground at a traffic light i don t recommend these activities anymore now that i m an old guy with kids of my own but it looked damn impressive if you can t keep both tires on the ground at least have em pointed in that direction cheers b
rec.motorcycles	re insurance and lotsa points in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi msd lmsc lockheed com j r laferriere writes now now keith just calm down what are you some prohibitionist prick the point of andrew infante s posting was obvious to solicit suggestions pertaining to the cost of insurance and the like i don t care if you are madd or sadd or whatever keep it to yourself we d all appreciate that well simply put drinking is irrelavent driving drunk is indefensable and unforgivable there is a large differnece but then with an attitude like yours i expect you ll be dead soon i just hope you don t take a human being out with you dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles in article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article apr alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov gregory humphreys writes i only have about to work with so that would have to cover everything bike helmet anything else that i m too ignorant to know i need to buy the following numbers are approximate and will no doubt get me flamed helmet new but cheap jacket used or very cheap gloves nothing special motorcycle safety foundation riding course a must wow courses in georgia are much cheaper for both the list looks good but i d also add heavy boots work hiking combat or similar think peace alan alanf eng tridom com kotbbbb gsxr j ama dod pgp key available
rec.motorcycles	strange experience hi i t was very nice out yesterday in the burgh so i rode my bike to my gynecologist appointment when he came in to do the exam he noticed my helmet sitting on a chair he got excited and picked it up and started asking all sorts of questions about bikes and dealers in the area and the msf course apparently he rode a friends for a while years ago and recently the bug to ride caught him again needless to say i had never before talked about bikes so much in such a position if ya know what i mean chris hogan ch c andrew cmu edu cb soft as the massacre of suns by evening s sabres slain emily dickinson
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes one of those morning just getting the coffee in me thoughts waving at other bikers makes more sense than just hey how s it going nice to meet you on the road have a good ride if you re watching for other bikes to wave to it means your attention is on the road where it should be and you re more likely to see cages it keeps you in the habit of watching really carefully for bikes when you re in a cage this is a good thing the down side is that when i m in my cage i have on numerous occasions slammed my hand into the rolled up window in an effort to wave at a passing biker ow the beav mike beavington bellnorthernresearch ottawa ont canada dod seca seca rz seca suzuki seca turbo v sabre gts can t afford the mbeaving bnr ca parking spaces we don t need no steenkin parking spaces
rec.motorcycles	harley davidson mailing list an email taste sensation anyone interesting in a mailing list for harley davidson bikes lifestyle politics h o g and whatever over members from countries make it may subscribe by sending a request to harley request thinkage on ca or uunet ca thinkage harley request your request to join should have a signature or something giving your full email address do not rely on the header from field being useful to me this is not an automated listserv facility do not expect instant gratification the list is a digest format scheduled for twice a day members of the harley list may obtain back issues and subject index listings pictures etc via an email archive server server access is restricted to list subscribers only ftp access real soon other motorcycle related lists i ve heard of not run by me these addresses may or may not be current stroke strokes request microunity com dirt dirt request zygot ati com european listserv frigg isc br com racing race request formula corp sun com digest request formula corp sun com short riding short request smarmy sun com wet leather listserv frigg isc br com it climbs the hills like a matchless cause my honda s built really light brian wilson honda honda
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes what a dog weighs lb maybe at max you can t handle it you have i presume thumbs grapple with it and tear it s head off sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages regards charles dod rz professionals who train guard dogs when polled gave themselves a in chance of survival tackling a trained dog unarmed a trained guard dog is not to be trifled with an untrained mutt may be another story obmoto a local dog used to chase me all the time really annoying i finally started stopping every time he d chase me he didn t know what to do then and would usually just slink off the road after a couple weeks of this he stopped chasing me altogether he would still chase cars or other bikes though i think he recognized me when i went by mike heathman vx briar rose dod lilly research t titan awaiting resurrection indianapolis in where am i to go now that i ve gone too far
rec.motorcycles	need parts info for maicoletta scooter posted for a friend looking for tires dimensions x or also looking for brakes or info on relining existing shoes also any other maicoletta owners anywhere to have contact with call scott at or email me i saw fops by the thousand sew themselves together round the lloyds building disclaimer my writings have nothing to do with my employer keep it that way pete ashdown pashdown slack sim es com salt lake city utah
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles motorcycle safety foundation riding course a must wow courses in georgia are much cheaper for both in maryland they were each when i learned to ride years ago now it s for the beginner riders course and for the experienced riders course which admittedly takes only about half the time d
rec.motorcycles	wrecked bmw do you or does anyone you know have a wrecked or later r anything or r anything that they are interested in getting rid of i need a motor but will buy a whole bike email replies to david braun ftcollinsco ncr com or dab vuse vanderbilt edu or phone x voice mail home
rec.motorcycles	what is a squid was re riceburner respect in article c qqxp ie cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes in article apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each excuse me for being an ignoramus but what are these squids are everybody but me and you chris behanna is especially a squid dana h myers kk jq views expressed here are mine and do not necessarily dana locus com dod reflect those of my employer this extra supports the abolition of the and wpm tests
rec.motorcycles	where to put your helmet cb from behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna cb maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes cb cb grf dropped my shoei rf off the seat of my bike while trying to cb rock cb it onto it s centerstand chipped the heck out of the paint on it cb do i have to be the one to say it cb don t be so stupid as to leave your helmet on the seat where it can cb fall down and go boom cb helmets go on the ground on a table on a chair on a shelf or on cb any other surface that is large enough to support them so that they cb will not easily be knocked down another good place for your helmet is your mirror i kid you not if you own a typical standard or other bike with fairly average mirrors that screw into your handlebars your helmet should fit over your mirror and be fairly stable i doubt i have to mention it but this trick isn t quite so smart on a goldwing cbr any gsxr or any bike with fairing mounted mirrors i was a little surprised though to find that you had your helmet on your seat while you were centerstanding your bike i usually leave my helmet on until my bike is parked if for no other reason than i wouldn t want my helmet to be on any surface that i was about to start tilting and jerking ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live i saw the quote below on a pair of nankai race replica leathers i think this sort of phrase is typically known as japlish slmr a drive agressively rash magnificently nankai leathers computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	spagthorpe viking ds from viking iastate edu dan sorenson ds ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes ds riding up the hill leading to my ds house i encountered a liver and white springer spaniel no relation to ds the springer softail or the springer spagthorpe a close relation to ds the spagthorpe viking ds i must have missed the article on the spagthorpe viking was ds that the one with the little illuminated dragon s head on the front ds fender a style later copied by indian and the round side covers no not at all the viking was a trick little unit made way back when forties fifties when spag was trying to make a go of it in racing the first iteration the springer was a boxer twin very similar to max friz s famous design but with an overhead point cam see below for more on the valvetrain the problem was that the thing had no ground clearance whatsoever the solution was to curve the cylinder bores so that the ground clearance was substantially increased springer motor front viking motor front this is roughly the idea except that the bores were gradually curved around a radius as the pistons were loath to make a sharp angled turn in the middle of their stroke the engine also had curved connecting rods to accomodate the stroke the engine stuck out so far because of its revolutionary and still unique overhead cam system through the use of clever valve timing and and extrordinarily trick valve linkage only a single cam lobe was required to drive both overhead valves just as revolutionary was the hydraulic valve actuation which used a pressurized stream of oil to power the waterwheel which kept the lobe spinning over one side effect that required some rather brutal engineering fixes was that until the engine s oil pressure came up to normal the engine s valve timing would be more or less random resulting in some impressive start up valve damage the solution was a little hand crank that pressurized the cases before you started the beast remarkably similar to the system used in new porsches to pressurize the oil system before the car is started the cage however uses an electric oil pump wimps despite this fix the engine had a nasty propensity for explosively firing its valves into the pistons when a cylinder would temporarily lose a bit of oil pressure in a corner the solution was to run even higher oil pressures and change the gaskets and seals regularly this was feasible because it was a racing engine with just a single overhead lobe and no pushrod shaft chain towers because of the hydraulic system the head of the engine came to an almost perfect point lobe xx complex linkage not shown due to valvestems complexity piston note that the tip was not truly vertical it was at about a degree angle to the ground and this drawing doesn t show the curvature because there was none in the head itself the bore curve would start about where the cylinder bore disappears in this diagram the effect of the pointy heads on top of a pair of gently pundits of the day even said sensuously curved cylinders was much like a pair of finned viking horns poking out from beneath the gas tank thus the name the vik was a moderately successful racer lightning fast when it worked but plagued by problems relating to its revolutionary technology eventually it was dumped when spag finally realized that racing was not where the spagthorpe name would be made the machines were raced for another year or two by privateers and their fate approximately six vikings were made plus one or possibly two springers confusing the issue is one old spag staffer who swears up and down that this machine was tooled for production and that as many as twenty or thirty machines may have come off the line however no modern record of a production viking has survived and most motorcycle historians discount this story ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live slmr a if you aren t sliding you aren t riding computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	krypto cables was re cobra locks in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes for the same money you can get a kryptonite cable lock which is anywhere from to thick steel cable looks like steel rope shielded in a flexible covering to protect your bike s finish and has a barrel type locking mechanism i don t know if it s adjustable but my source says it s more difficult to pick than most locks and the cable tends to squish flat in bolt cutter jaws rather than shear model fyi i ll be getting a krypto cable next paycheck a word of warning though kryptonite also sells almost useless cable locks under the kryptonite name when i obtained my second motorcycle i migrated one of my kryptonite u locks from my bicycle to the new bike i then went out shopping for a new lock for the bicycle for about the same money i had the choice of a kryptonite cable lock advantages lock front and back wheels on bicycle and keep them both kryptonite name or a cheesy no name u lock advantages real steel i chose the kryptonite cable after less than a week i took it back in disgust and exchanged it for the cheesy no name u lock first the krypto cable i bought is not made by kryptonite is not covered by the kryptonite guarantee and doesn t even approach kryptonite standards of quality and quality assurance it is just some generic made in taiwan cable lock with the kryptonite name on it secondly the latch engagement mechanism is something of a joke i don t know if mine was a particularly poor example but it was often quite frustrating to get the latch to positively engage and sometimes it would seem to engage only to fall open when i went to unlock it thirdly the lock has a little plastic door on the keyway which serves the sole purpose of frustrating any attempt to insert the key in the dark i didn t try it obviously but i have my doubts that the lock mechanism would stand up to an insert screwdriver and torque attack fourthly the cable was not in my opinion of sufficient thickness to deter theft for my piece of crap bicycle that is all cables suffer the weakness that they can be cut a few strands at a time if you are patient you can cut cables with fingernail clippers aviation snips would go through the cable in well under a minute michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	re for johs dhhalden no last nick pettefar npet bnr ca wrote tsk tsk tsk another newbie bites the dust eh they ll learn newbie sorry to disappoint you but as far as the internet goes i was in baghdad while you were still in your dads bag most of the people who made this group interesting or years ago are no longer around and i only have time to make a random sweep once a week or so hence i missed most of this thread based on your previous postings apparently devoid of humour sarcasm wit or the apparent capacity to walk and chew gum at the same time i assumed you were serious mea culpa still it s nice to see that bnr are doing so well that they can afford to overpay some contractors to sit and read news all day pete young pky fmg bt co uk phone most people prefer entertaining nonsense to unexciting reality
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this in article apr sarvax cmhnet org frog sarvax cmhnet org jeff frog campbell writes from article c px n kw murdoch acc virginia edu by cdw t dayhoff med virginia edu dances with federal rangers obmotowashing is it just me or does everyone cut their finger s on the evil cotterpin tm lurking somewhere in the dark recesses of the back end of the bike when giving the prized moto a bath i seem to slice the pinkie of one hand or the other every time both of them this time it s you beemers have no ec tm oh yes they do but considering i never wash my bmw unless i need to work on it i never get cuts untill the tools come out altho the best scar now faded was from the exhaust piper while try to change the oil after overheating the engine watch out for idiot drivers that won t let you pass in the mountains when you have a rider case of oil it was on sale and case of beer with a drain bolt that decided to seize just how does everyone else clean out the area under the transmission on a bmw r bike they only way i have found is to remove the engine and transmission that and the clutch arm are impossible to clean which is wear one of the ec s m are located laz ps anyone know where i can get the heads polished and ported cheap also how much should that run
rec.motorcycles	question this is probably a stupid question but as i am new to the motorcycle scene i don t really know anything about it what is dod thanks jonathan d fields fields cis ohio state edu
rec.motorcycles	re uh der whassa deltabox in article c kxal izc ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca jorg klinger writes i beleive it s called the dentabox frame nothing some putty and paint won t fix this from someone riding a gsxr gutsy
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone on pillion i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my ninja this will be the the first time i ve taken anyone for an extended ride read farther than around the block we ll be riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road mt hamilton loop for you sf bay areans this person is lbs and fairly small so i don t see weight as too much of a problem but what sort of of advice should i give her before we go i want her to hold onto me rather than the grab rail out back and i ve heard that she should look over my shoulder in the direction we re turning so she leans with me but what else are there traditional signals for slow down or go faster or i hafta go pee etc i really want this to be a positive experience for us both mainly so that she ll want to go with me again so any help will be appreciated thanks bob bob wert rmw genie gene com rwert well sf ca us dod ama ninja r mustang lx seven turns on the highway seven rivers to cross sometimes you feel like you can fly away sometimes you get lost
rec.motorcycles	yamaha vs honda opinions i am in hte market for a new bike been without for a few years the two main bikes i m looking at seriously are the yamaha virago and the honda shadow vlx i am leaning towards the yamaha for its shaft drive the honda is chain insurance in fla is more costly than i thought so i am staying in this power range thanks in advance for any opinions and or experiences
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me so take you own advice and wuit you whining about flames no brains and he can t spell either edu i hope you re not a student at duke you would be wasting your tuition the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well as a few of you so aptly put it get off the road jerk we don t wanna hear your whining fine fuck off too if you noticed it was in more than two years ago and yes i ve learned and it s cost me and yes i ve known people friends and relatives who ve been involved in drunk related accidents not them they were hit and my cousin is still recovering no i can t take back what happened yes it was stupid but by reminding me about it all the time you re neither helping me or yourself so stuff your opinion hey man you brought it up i agree completely driving drunk is really stupid and i understand and appreciate that you feel bad about it but dwi is endemic in our society it is a real problem and we as motorcyclists can be in the worst of vulnerable positions around a drunk driver alert readers might remember that last year i witnessed a dwi accident right bloody in front of me and was unable to save the life of one of the participants as i reported here also drunk driving by motorcyclists is a prime cause of their injury and death which raises the insurance rates forces stupidly restrictive laws and turns the public against those of us who ride responsibly in my view drunk driving should carry a mandatory prison sentence it is one of the traffic offenses which is not a public funds issue but a genuine safety issue so if you bring up the subject on rec moto admitting having been caught dwi and looking for sympathy over the consequences don t expect people to respond with warm wishes dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	racelist who what where greetings fellow motorcycle roadracing enthusiasts background the racing listserver boogie ebay sun com contains discussions devoted to racing and racing related topics this is a pretty broad interest group individuals have a variety of backgrounds motojournalism roadracing from the perspective of pit crew and racers engineering motosports enthusiasts the size of the list grows weekly we are currently at a little over one hundred and eighty five members with contributors from new zealand australia germany france england canada finland switzerland and the united states the list was formed october in response to a perceived need to both provide technical discussion of riding at the edge of performance roadracing and to improve on the very low signal to noise ratio found in rec motorcycles anyone is free to join discussion is necessarily limited by the rules of the list to issues related to racing motorcycles and is to be flame free how to get the daily distribution you are welcome to subscribe to subscribe send your request to race request boogie ebay sun com traffic currently runs between five and twenty five messages per day depending on the topic nb please do not send your subscription request to the list directly after you have contacted the list administrator you will receive an rsvp request please respond to this request in a timely manner so that you can be added to the list the request is generated in order to insure that there is a valid mail pathway to your site upon receipt of your rsvp you will be added to either the daily or digest distribution as per your initial request how to get the digest distribution it is possible to receive the list in digest ed form ie a single email message the roadracing digest is mailed out whenever it contains enough interesting content given the frequency of postings this appears to be about every other day should you wish to receive the list via digest once every k or so please send a subscription request to digest request boogie ebay sun com how to post to the list this is an open forum to post an article to the list send to race boogie ebay sun com depending on how mail is set up at your site you may or may not see the mail that you have posted if you want to see it though this isn t necessarily a guarantee that it went out you can include a metoo line in your mailrc file on unix based mail systems bounces because i haven t had the time or the inclination to replace the list distribution mechanism we still have a problem with bounces returning to the poster of a message occasionally sites or users go off line either leaving their place of employment prematurely or hardware problems and you will receive bounces from the race list check the headers carefully and if you find that the bounce originated at sun from whence i administer this list contact me through my administration hat race request boogie ebay sun com if not ignore the bounce other lists two strokes strokes microunity com harleys harley request thinkage on ca or uunet watmath thinkage harley request european bikes majordomo onion rain com in body of message write subscribe euro moto thanks be seeing you rich race list administrator rich boogie ebay sun com stefan fielding isaacs office fax dba art science books by design voice pager ama ccs currently providing consulting writing services to gain technology verity
rec.motorcycles	re kreme in article apr vax cit cornell edu na vax cit cornell edu writes hi folks recently saw one post about kreme being a bad idea but that was only one man s opinion any one else have any experience with the stuff on my sporty i had some pinhole leaks open up on the back seam i kreme it about a year ago and have had no problems at all be real careful as the cleaning part of the solution is hell on paint jim jim groh groh sig cs fsu edu dod hog new improved xlh fxr xlh xlh smaller sig
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes in article oxz b w w cellar org craig cellar org saint craig writes shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes most people wave or return my wave when i m on my harley other harley riders seldom wave back to me when i m on my duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each other from what i can tell when we take a hand off the bars we fall down jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	re uh der whassa deltabox in ramarren kops apple com ramarren apple com godfrey digiorgi writes can someone tell me what a deltabox frame is and what relation that has if any to the frame on my hawk gt that way next time some guy comes up to me in some parking lot and sez hey dude nice bike is that a deltabox frame on there i can say something besides duh er huh i beleive it s called the dentabox frame nothing some putty and paint won t fix jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle detailing tip in article apr hemlock cray com ant palm cray com tony jones writes how about someone letting me know motorcycle detailing tip the far side of my instrument panel was scuffed when the previous owner dumped the bike same is true for one of the turn signals both of the scuffed areas are black plastic i recall reading somewhere that there was some plastic compound you could coat the scuffed areas with then rub it down ending with a nice smooth shiny finish in the may motorcyclist pg someone writes in and recomends using rubberized undercoating for this von welch vwelch ncsa uiuc edu ncsa networking development group cbr f kz subaru gl wd i speak only for myself and those who think exactly like me
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article l a well sf ca us pstone well sf ca us philip k stone writes hey ed how do you explain the fact that you pull on a horse s reins left to go left or am i confusing two threads here three actually i believe i discussed countersteering a horse before basically there are two ways to steer a horse plow rein and neck rein plow reining steers him by keeping the reins separate and you pull in the direction you wish to go neck reining steers a horse by holding the reins together in one hand and pulling against the horse s neck in the direction you wish to go when training a plow steering horse to neck rein one technique is to cross the reins under his necks thus when neck reining to the left the right rein pulls against the right side of the neck but the left side of the bit which the horse is used to from his plow reining days are you sorry you asked yet ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets in article u washington edu moseley u washington edu steve l moseley writes so what should i carry if i want to comply with intelligent helmet laws take up residence in a fantasy world ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	moving on well it s been fun this is my last day at bellcore and it will be a while before i have net access again taking time off and scheduling military schools for the summer on joint operations and anything else that looks good i have had a blast reading responding and commenting on things posted here my final say is mm s are inferior to s errr oh wrong news group hopefully i ll be back i guess internet withdrawl starts around pm or so and considering i never knew inet existed years ago i am really going to miss it oh yea to the guy who called me this morning about the military issue boots good luck i think you will be happy with the tankers boots there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re aerostitch or piece in article apr vax cit cornell edu na vax cit cornell edu writes request for opinions which is better a one piece aerostitch or a two piece aerostitch we re looking for more than well the pc is more versatile but the pc is better protection thanks in advance nadine what is best books have been written on that but in regard to aerostich it really depends on your particular size shape and needs if you upper and lower body are not proportional according to aero dimensions then it probably is going to be better mixing and matching the piece suit i have the piece suit and i am very happy with it having my life quota of scars from crashing off road i am very concerned with good protection and i believe that the difference in protection between the and piece suits is almost negligible i think the optional hip pads and back protector make much more of a difference one thing that is nice about the piece is if you go somewhere and then want to walk around for a while still with jacket you can just detach and stow the pants one thing to note is that goldfine has problems getting a good fit for many women with standard suits supposedly for smaller women and petite men for that matter the piece will fit better another recommendation is to pay for mods if you need them i wish i got inches added to my pant legs i find the long suits are not really that long i can t imagine how short the standard suits must be jonathan e polito internet jpolito encore com encore computer corp kildaire farm rd cary nc usa voice fax
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorc in article cs cmu edu jfriedl ri cmu edu jeffrey friedl writes egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes an apartment complex where i used to live tried this only they put the thing over the driver s window so they couldn t miss it i can see the liability of putting stickers on the car while it was moving or something but it s the bdi that chooses to start and then drive the car in a known unsafe condition that would seem to be liable an effort was made to remove the sticker it came to pieces leaving most of it firmly attached to the window it was dark and around pm the sticker before being mangled in an ineffective attempt to be torn off warned the car would be towed if not removed a reasonable person would arguably have driven the car had an accident occured i don t think my friend s attorney would have much trouble fixing blame on the apartment mangement as a practical matter even without a conviction the cost and inconvenience of defending against the suit would be considerable as a moral matter it was a pretty fucking stupid thing to do for so paltry a violation as parking without an authorization sticker btw it wasn t somebody s spot it was resident only but unassigned parking ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re tracing license plates of bdi cagers in article jamesf apple com jim franklin writes i can file a complaint about this and actually have the chance to have something done how who where a traffic citation is an accusation of having committed a crime that s why they have to go through the motions of having a trial if you want one you are still innocent until proven guilty cops are not the only ones who can accuse people of committing crimes anyone who witnesses a crime can do so go to the highway patrol and explain the situation give them a description of the car and the license number and tell them the specific violation of the law which you witnessed and wish to prosecute ie search the vehicle code and have the section number handy fill out the ticket and sign it it will go through the same system any ticket a cop writes goes through if contested you will have to appear in court to prosecute your word will not carry the same weight as a cop s ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	performance bike frenzy at cadwell is anyone going to the p b frenzy at cadwell park in may i am going but only to watch when asked what would i most want to try before doing it i said death
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in article cvbnetprime com tjohnson tazmanian prime com tod johnson x writes i was able to avoid an accident by revving my engine and having my stock harley pipes make enough noise to draw someones attention sure there are horns but my hand is already on the throttle should we get into how many feet a bike going mph goes in seconds or how long it would take me to push my horn button if we do i think you d loose sure you re hand s already on the throttle and your thumb is already near the horn button pushing the horn button is one simple move revving the throttle requires either engaging the clutch or accelerating the first is a more complex manuver than a simple horn button push and the second ain t too bright when there is a potential hazard ahead besides the unique sound of a horn is more effective in attracting the attention of bdi cagers than is the sound of an engine which is what they expect to hear you are on the road as is usually the case a single anecdote hardly constitutes sound safety procedure the answer is feet ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	for sale kawasaki ex michigan for sale from ann arbor michigan kawasaki ex miles cherry red excellent condition asking contact brian at days evenings weekends or e mail at vaughan umich edu or reply to this post
rec.motorcycles	re bdi experience sebastian c sears on the tue apr gmt wibbled came around a right hand sweeper going around mph only to find a cager going around mph calmly driving along with no other traffic around in my lane not crossing the line not swerving fully and totally within the south bound lane of w one lane each direction and i haven t even got there yet must have been some other brit nick the english biker dod concise oxford left is right m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post mike sixsmith on the apr gmt wibbled very interesting yawn stuff deleted because i m like that formal training is in my view absolutely essential if you re going to be able to ride a bike properly and safely but by including countersteering theory in newbie courses we are confusing people unnecessarily right at the time when there are far more important matters for them to learn and that was my original point mike i am in complete concordance with you there mike i was a silver starrider instructor for a while i learn t about countersteering last year and i have been riding bikes since we were never told about countersteering when being taught to instruct it doesn t seem to have affected me or my friends or pupils we just rode in blissful ignorance nick the biker dod concise oxford m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes mere mph or so gravel road with few loose rocks on it as in just like bad concrete and lbs of swinging beef jumped a fence came out of the ditch and rammed me when i saw her jump the fence i went for the gas since she was about feet ahead of me but a good forty to the side damn cow literally chased me down and nailed me no damage to cow a bent case guard and a severely annoyed rider were the only casualties if i had my shotgun i d still be eating steak nope if lbs of cow can hit me when i m actively evading forget a much more manueverable dog just run them over one day out riding my friend and i were passing a field of goats and noticed out on the road as we slowed to pass the ram made a dash at my friend just missing him and then tangling it self up in the barb wire fence being good samaritains and generally nice guys we turned around to untrangle the goat from the barbed wire as i pulled up next to him seeing him still tangled up stopped the bike and got off the goat had vanished into the field i guess jolly roger
rec.motorcycles	re got my bike was wanted advice on cb c purchase in article apr ncsu edu jrwaters eos ncsu edu jack rogers waters writes being a reletively new reader i am quite impressed with all the usefull info available on this newsgroup i would ask how to get my own dod number but i ll probably be too busy riding does this count yes he thought about it cat dod faq mailx s hahahha jburnside ll mit edu waiting to press return hey c mon guys and gals i chose my words very carefully and even tried to get my faq s straight don t holler bohica at me jamie w burnside cb custom o o jburnside ll mit edu kdx sold c cb for sale
rec.motorcycles	anti freeze anti freeze i was wrong still had the issue of street rodder in my last pile in the february issue on page there is an advirtisement for anti freeze and it makes a great party mixer the neo synthetic oil company has a reputation for developing overkill priducts the protect and extend the life of mechinical things and here is there latest development propylene glycol probably the finest radiator coolant available after miles of testing they find it has a boiling point of degrees much higher than conventional coolants which helps elminate detonation and pinging it allows the use of smaller radiators in race cars it will not damage aluminum blocks or heads and it is environmentally safe yep this is the good stuff baker precision products dept srm gundry ave long beach ca i neither endorse or unendorse the above product i only copied the advert blurb for others info ymmv there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes secondly it is the adhesion of the tyre on the road the suspension geometry and the ground clearance of the motorcycle which dictate how quickly you can swerve to avoid obstacles and not the knowledge of physics between the rider s ears are you seriously suggesting that countersteering knowledge enables you to corner faster or more competently than you could manage otherwise if he s not i will put two riders on identical machines it s the one who knows what he s doing and why that will be faster it may be possible to improve your technique if you have no idea what it is through trial and error but it is not very effective methodology only by understanding the technique of steering a motorcycle can one improve on that technique i hold that this applies to any human endeavor that s all it is an interesting bit of knowledge and to claim that it is essential for all bikers to know it or that you can corner faster or better as a result is absurd do you consider an understanding of the physics of traction absurd are you seriously suggesting that one can form a traction management policy without understanding what it is or what factors increase or decrease available traction braking it is highly unlikely that any biker is going to develop his maximum swerving ability without any knowledge of turning techniques for most of his riding life this may not be a problem but in an emergency situation it is very definately placing him at a disadvantage but by including countersteering theory in newbie courses we are confusing people unnecessarily right at the time when there are far more important matters for them to learn i disagree the existance and immense success of riding courses which teach the technique indicate that the concept can be taught in a manner that is neither confusing nor detracts from any other aspects of the course and that was my original point perhaps but in the ensuing discussion you strayed far from that point to claim that knowledge of steering technique is irrelevant to a rider s ability i find this assertion ludicrous ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re bmw battery in article apr ra msstate edu vech ra msstate edu craig a vechorik writes if i remember correctly the reason that bmw s come with those expensive and relatively worthless short lived varda batteries is cause bmw owns a controling interest in that battery manufacturer what s wrong with the bmw battery i ve never had problems and i know numerous people that are still using the original battery in there year old beemers the original battery in an year old bmw may be fine mine lasted many years the replacement ah battery from bmw was a disaster the mechanic from comp acc told me that ca would warantee replace the bad one with a new one of the same evil bad batteries and tell the customer if they have problems to bring it back and they d do it again it seems that many of those ah batteries were doa near doa and always unlikely to be going strong by the end of the warantee period on them there was a big batch of bad ones and they replaced them with you guessed it more bad ones bmw switched to a ah battery that has more cold cranking amps even if it has less total juice i switched to a yuasa that has even more cold cranking amps and cost one third fewer dollars neil kirby dod nak archie cbusa att com at t bell labs columbus oh usa if you think i speak for at t you might have more lawyers than sense
rec.motorcycles	power arc ii ignition super e carb now the bike is off warranty i finally replaced the stock items on my softail custom with the title ones installation was pretty easy in both cases even for a fairly non mechanical chemist type dude like me i discovered the limitations of my tool collection but had fun buying and making the requisite tools mc ignitions power arc ii single fire ignition easy to install but read the wiring diagram carefully setting the static timing was a piece of cake once installed i have found easier starting smoother idle and more power plus a more satisfying to me bass note in the exhaust register a lovely whompa whompa whompa idle the folks at mc ignitions were great in answering my dumb questions on the phone a very helpful bunch of guys with a great product s s super e carb installation easy once i hacked down an allen wrench to a small anough reach to get at the intake manifold bolts tunes like a dream just like they say the stock carb non adjustable was so lean that it was gasping and spluttering for gas sometimes and even backfiring into the intake manifold the super e is terrific no hesitation in any gear and my plugs are a lovely tan color with no need to rejet from the factory settings i know this may not seem like much to you grizzled veteran wrenchers out there but i had my bike in so many pieces this weekend i began to get worried but it all went back together again and runs like a dream so i am feeling pretty happy now all i have to do is install my bub pipes and try to pass the nh noise gestapo test russ hughes fxstc dod e love yeah that s the feeling you get when you like something as much as your motorcycle sonny barger
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this in regards ot some of the posts concerning bias in articles of k bikes versis s or boxers of a later date or whatever jeezzz lighten up i wrote the slash two blues for a bit of humor which seems to be lacking in the moa owners news when most of the stuff is i rode the the first day i saw that i rode there the second day i saw this any body out there know were the sense if humor went in people i though i still had mine but i dunno regards craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador dod and hey i just want ya ll to vote o k for somebody instead of throwing it in the trash
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article qmetg g n sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes horse s neck in the direction you wish to go when training a plow steering horse to neck rein one technique is to cross the reins under his necks thus when neck reining to the left the right rein ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker given my desire to stay as far away as possible from farming and ranching equipment i really hate to jump into this thread i m going to anyway but i really hate it ed exactly what kind of mutant horse like entity do you ride anyway does countersteering work on the normal garden variety one necked horse obmoto i was flipping through the march i think issue of rider and i saw a small pseudo ad for a book on hand signals appropriate to motorcycling it mentioned something about a signal for your passenger is on fire any body know the title and author of this book and where i could get a copy this should not be understood as implying that i have grown sociable enough to ride with anyone but the book sounded cute tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com i will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm
rec.motorcycles	re recommendation for a front tire hey folks i ve got a pair of dunlop sportmax radials of my zx and they ve been very sticky ie no slides yet but all this talk about the metzelers has me wondering if my next set should be a lazer comp k and a radial metzeler rear for hard sport touring how do the choices stack up nathaniel zx dod ama
rec.motorcycles	re ducati opinions wanted in a previous article bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner says in article qhm mbs news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu albion h bowers writes in a previous article markb wc novell com m burnham says ducati s are really slow they don t sell them over here in us but considering that the ss is not too powerful the is gonna be a dog oh yeah at mph in the quarter is such a slug come on when was the last time you used your s max power peak i think maybe you should ride one first before passing judgement there is a lot more than just maximum acceleration i guess i m out of touch but what exactly is the ducati a v twin desmo or is it that half a v twin with the balance weight where the nd cylinder would go a second for a isn t bad at all sorry i should have been more specific the ss ran the quater in the last small v twin duc we got in the us and the is a pantah based v twin was the sl pantah and it ran a creditable modern carbs and what not should put the in the high s at btw fzr s ran mid s and the latest crop of japanese s will out run that it s hard to remember but but a new goof will clobber an old kz handily both in top end and roll on technology stands still for no one al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don t you know that girls can t play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in article qmi g n sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article cvbnetprime com tjohnson tazmanian prime com tod johnson x writes sure there are horns but my hand is already on the throttle should we get into how many feet a bike going mph goes in seconds or how long it would take me to push my horn button the answer is feet ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker try something like feet edgetacalculator tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com i will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm
rec.motorcycles	re changing sprocket ratios honda cb cbrooks ms uky edu clayton brooks writes do any honda gurus know if i can replace the the front sprocket on my honda cb k with a slightly larger one i see this as being preferable to reducing the size of the rear one just wanting ride at a more relaxed rpm it can be done contact chaparell cycle supply they ought to have the sprocket you need want for cheap well much cheaper than your average dealership hey they even had sprockets for my vf r which is hard to find accesssories for craig vf r intecptor pilot craig cellar org the institute dod kotk keeper of the keepers bauds fuschal the promised land where those who have faith shall wear hats of great majesty yea though they be made of cardboard and have humourous arrows through them red dwarf
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes blind driveway at mph for that matter how many driveways are long enough for a car to hit mph by the end i eagerly await comment well my driveway is just keep an eye out for the blue glh turbo that utilizes the hit the ground running merging technique at least i don t have a dog that you need worry about last week while entering a sand gravel covered intersection in the country i caught something unkosher out of the corner of my eye you know that disgusting sensation when great as of yet unidentified evil is about to intimately acquaint itself with you kind of like knowing that that darkening shadow around you just cannot possibly be anything even remotely good because it probably has something to do with a boeing behaving gravitationally speaking much like a brick negotiating my way into this intersection that somehow reminded me of daytona beach sans h o sun babes i manage to get a glance at my impending destiny lucifer s own dog hell s secret blend of canine doberman and rottweiler it moved with the grace of a doberman yet had the hulk and jowels of the rottweiler a creature with a definite wrong end to be at the picture in my mirrors was fuzzy but there was no mistaking the fangs and saliva trail to shorten a verbose tale my burly gaurdian angels once again performed above and beyond the call of duty carried the bike through the sand trap i honestlyhave no idea how and left the minion of beelzebub with a face that suspiciously resembles a metzler tread no blood though rats moral i m not really sure but more and more i believe that bikers ought to be allowed to carry handguns erc c eric sundheim grandrapids mi usa hondo vfr f dod
rec.motorcycles	re european m c insurance h marc lewis there are two kinds of people in the world olivetti north america those who divide everything in the world into marcl mail spk olivetti com two kinds of things and those who don t i thought it was there are two kinds of people in the world those who think there are two kinds of people and those who don t and then there s there are three kinds of people in the world those who like math and those who don t obmoto michigan weather forecast for saturday high in the low s chance of snow flurries showers possible enjoy the weather where you are have a ride on me phil de haan dod why yes that is my honda cl that s the nature of being an executive in america you have to rely on other people to do something you used to do yourself donald fehr executive director major league baseball players association
rec.motorcycles	route suggestions as i won t be able to make the joust this summer job related time conflict i plan instead on going to the rider rally in knoxville i ll be leaving from chicago and generally plan on going down along the indiana illinois border into kentucky and then tennessee i would be very interested in hearing suggestions of roads routes areas that you would consider must ride while on the way to knoxville i can leave as early as and need to arrive in knoxville by pm on that leaves me a pretty good stretch of time to explore on the way by the way if anyone else is going and would like to partner for the ride down let me know i ll be heading east afterward to visit family but sure don t mind company on the ride down to the rally depending on weather et al my plan is motelling tenting thru the trip from the rally i ll be heading up the blue ridge parkway then jogging into west va i to run up marlington petersburg e i i e after this point the route is presently undetermined into pennsylvania new york and back to chicago by suggestions for these areas would be of great interest also many thanks for your ideas enjoy steve bunis sun microsystems dod st itasca il ama kz are you sure this is april b
rec.motorcycles	re where to put your helmet on apr gmt ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau said cb don t be so stupid as to leave your helmet on the seat where it can cb fall down and go boom ryan another good place for your helmet is your mirror i kid you not this is very bad advice helmets have two major impact absorbing layers a hard outer shell and a closed cell foam impact layer most helmets lose their protective properties because the inner liner compacts over time long before the outer shell is damaged or delaminates from age dr hurt tested helmets for many years following his landmark study and has estimated that a helmet can lose up to of it s effectiveness from inner liner compression i have a video he produced that discusses this phenomenon in detail puncture compression of the type caused by mirrors sissy bars and other relatively sharp objects is the worst offender even when the comfort liner is unaffected dents and holes in the foam can seriously degrade the effectiveness of a helmet if you are in the habit of parking your lid on the mirrors i suggest you look under the comfort liner at the condition of the foam if it is significantly damaged or missing replace the helmet jerry lotto lotto lhasa harvard edu msfci hogssc bcso ama dod chemistry dept harvard univ it s my harley and i ll ride if i want to
rec.motorcycles	re wanted advice for new cylist in article c r ey mq srgenprp sr hp com blaisec sr hp com blaise cirelli writes so the question i have is how dangerous is riding tough question more dangerous than driving a car and far more dangerous if you don t apply a modicum of intelligence to the activity basically stupidity will get you hurt killed a lot faster on a motorcycle than in a car but with care it is not unreasonably dangerous also buying good protective clothing is helpful that way if something does go wrong you are likely to be less severely injured first thing if possible take a msf driver training course this will get you started on the right foot they teach control of the vehicle and safe riding practices second buy protective gear at minimum a good helmet and a pair of leather gloves are a must a good sturdy piece of footgear is also very helpful though leather hiking boots a pair of old army boots or something similar works fine for this purpose as long as you make sure the laces stay tied after those a leather jacket and leather pants or chaps are nice as well but these are also expensive items for the pants many people consider a good pair of jeans to be reasonable preferably recent and of a fairly heavy weight similarly for a jacket a good jean jacket is a reasonable compromise though more people tend to have leather jackets around than pants another thing to do is drop in on garage sales looking for a second hand leather jacket look for a fairly thick leather in these items third don t do anything stupid don t ride after drinking even one drink can noticeably affect you judgement and balance don t ride in the snow or when conditions are such that black ice is likely be very careful riding in the rain slow way down take corners gingerly brake early and gently try not to ride if you are sick tired taking any medication with drowsiness warnings or otherwise not in average shape with care you should be ok the next question i have is what bike would you recommend for a first time rider i don t want to race nor do i want to ride cross country nor do i want to ride on dirt trails i ll probably drive it on back roads with occasional rides on city streets and freeways the maximum i can spend is about so i ll be looking at a used bike i would suggest mid to late s japanese mid sized standard something in cc range would probably be reasonable if you are shorter lighter than average you might want to go as low as a cc bike possible models the suzuki gs series eg gs gs etc these are generally inline bikes generally dependable except for a tendency to weakness in the charging system stator and or regulator rectifier problems my first bike was a about gs it server me well the honda nighthawk series this may also be known as the cb series i think eg honda cb cb etc this is another series of standard motorcycles also fairly dependable kawasaki and yamaha probably have similar bikes but i don t know them as well for mid to late s models of the above you should be able to buy the bike for under leaving you money for protective clothing and insurance and licensing costs hope this helps david dagibbs qnx com
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article c t dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us bob wert writes i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my ninja this will be the the first time i ve taken anyone for an extended ride read farther than around the block we ll be riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road mt hamilton loop for you sf bay areans i d say this is a very bad idea you should start out with something much mellower so that neither one of you get in over your head that particular road requires full concentration not the sort of thing you want to take a passenger on for the first time once you both decide that you like riding together and want to do something longer and more challenging then go for a hard core road like mines mt hamilton in any case it s your moral responsibility to make sure that she has proper gear that fits especially if you re going sport riding eric
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes curtis jackson pens msf course shyah the one here only costs izzat a deal or what they are free in philadelphia cb dod i would give my right arm to be ambidextrous
rec.motorcycles	re what is a squid was re riceburner respect in article apr locus com dana lando la locus com dana h myers writes in article c qqxp ie cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes in article apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each excuse me for being an ignoramus but what are these squids are everybody but me and you chris behanna is especially a squid hey dana long time no read i m afraid the squid rating has gone up slightly since getting the ninja but i m trying very hard to restrain myself the bodywork is just too damned expensive knock knock at least it s quiet later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes this was changed here in louisiana when a girl went to court and won her case by claiming to be stoned on pot not intoxicated on liquor geez what happened she got a ticket for driving too slow dod technician dr speed not student oh are you saying you re not an edu breath then okay dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	st ride sixteen days i had put off test driving the honda st finally the th was a saturday without much rain in fact it cleared up became warm and sunny and the wind died about three weeks ago i took a long cool ride on the hawk down to cycles for a test ride they had sold and delivered the demo st about fifteen hours before i arrived and the demo vfr was bike locked in the showroom surrounded by other bikes and not likely to move soon today was different there were even more bikes used dirt bikes used street bikes cars and a big tent full of outlandishly fat touring bikes with trailers were all squeezed in the parking lot some sort of fat bike convention shelly and dave were running one msf course each at the same time one in the classroom and one on the back lot plus there was the usuall free cookout food that cycles gives away every weekend in the summer hmmm it seemed like a big moto party after about ten minutes of looking for rob c cheif of sales slime and another minutes reading and signing a long disclosure libility pray to god form i helped jt push the st out into the mess in the parking lot we went over the the controls i put the tank bag from the hawk into the right saddlebag and my wife put everything else into the left saddlebag thats nice having helped push the st out to the lot i thought it best to have jt move it to the edge of the road away from the bikes and people he rode it like a bicycle it cant be that heavy i thought well i was wrong as i sat on the st both feet down all i could think was big then i put one foot up heavy came to mind very quickly with cindy on the back was she on the back hard to tell with seat three times as large as a hawk seat the bike seemed nearly out of control just idling on the side of the road by rpm in second gear all the weight seemed to dissappear even on bike with miles on the odometer slippery new tires and pads that did not yet bite the disks things seems smooth and sure cycles is on a section of that few folks ever ride about miles north of the computer concentration about five miles north of where i splits away is a lighly travelled two lane limited access highway it goes through heavily forested sections of hamilton manchester by the sea and newbury on its way to gloucester on its way there it meets a road that winds from the sea about miles inland to andover on its way it goes through many thoroughly new england spots perfect if slow sport touring sections cindy has no difficulty with speed rd gear th gear purring along in top gear this thing has less low rpm grunt that my hawk lane changes were a new experience a big heft is required to move this thing responds well though no wallowing or complaint behind the fairing it was fairly quiet but the helmet buffeting was non trivial top gear car passing at mph was nearly effortless smooth smooth smooth not sure what the v sound reminds me of but it is pleasant if only the bars were not transmitting an endless buzz the jump on to caused me to be less than impressed with the brakes its a down hill reversing camber twice reversing radius decreasing radius turn a real squeeze is needed on the front binder the section of we were on was tight but too urban the st works ok in this section but it shows its weight we went by the clam shack oft featured in spencer for hire a place where you could really find spencer his house was about miles down after putting through traffic for a while we turned and went back to about half way through the onramp i yanked cindy s wrist our singal for hold on tight head check left time to find redline second gear gives a good shove third too fourth sees dod speed with a short shift into top on the way to we saw no cops and very light traffic did not cross into dod zone because the bike was too new well now it had miles on it so it was ok tried some high effort lane changes some wide sweeping turns time to wick it up i went until the buffeting was threating to pull us off the seat and stayed there when i was comfortable with the wind and the steering i looked down to find an indicated mph not bad for up touring beverly comes fast at more than twice the posted limit at the get off in a mile sign i rolled off the throttle and coasted i wanted to re adjust to the coming slowness it was a good idea there were several manhole sized patches of sand on the exit ramp back to the slow and heavy behavior cycles is about a mile from i could see even more cars stacked up outside right when i got off i managed to thread the st through the cars to the edge of the concrete pad out front heavy it took way too much effort for cindy and i to put the thing on the center stand i am sure that if i used the side stand the st would have been on its side within a minute my demo opinion heavy put it on a diet smooth comfortable hardly notices the dod speed i d buy on for about less than list just like it is too much for the bike as it is frank evan perdicaro xyvision color systems legalize guns drugs and cash today edgewater drive inhouse frank marvin x wakefield ma outhouse frank contex com x
rec.motorcycles	battery charger i just noticed that my halogen table lamp runs off volts the big thinngy that plugs into the wall says volts dc ma the question is can i trickle charge the battery on my cb with it i don t know the rating of the battery but it is a factory intalled one thanks sanjay cb dod i would give my right arm to be ambidextrous
rec.motorcycles	re question in article r ldinn rp frigate cis ohio state edu fields cis ohio state edu jonathan david fields writes this is probably a stupid question but as i am new to the motorcycle scene i don t really know anything about it what is dod this has to be a setup lookit same site as arnie skurow later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article c t dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us bob wert writes i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my ninja this will be the the first time i ve taken anyone for an extended ride read farther than around the block we ll be riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road mt hamilton loop for you sf bay areans you sonuvabitch rub it in why don t you we have great weather and great roads here unlike the rest of you putzes in the u s nyah nyah nyah for the severely humor impaired this person is lbs and fairly small so i don t see weight as too much of a problem but what sort of of advice should i give her before we go i want her to hold onto me rather than the grab rail out back and i ve heard that she should look over my shoulder in the direction we re turning so she leans with me but what else are there traditional signals for slow down or go faster or i hafta go pee etc you ll likely not notice her weight too much a piece of advice for you don t be abrupt with the throttle no wheelies accelerate a wee bit more slowly than usual consciously worry about spitting her off the back it s as much your job to keep her on the pillion as it is hers and i guarantee she ll be put off by the bike ripping out from under her when you whack it open keep the lean angles pretty tame the first time out too you and her need to learn each other s body english she needs to learn what your idea is about how to take the turn and you need to learn her idea of shit don t crash now so you don t work at cross purposes while leaned over you can work up to more aggressive riding over time a very important thing tell her to put her hand against the tank when you brake this could save you some severely crushed cookies have fun chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re fj owners tankbag suggestions wanted in article apr ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu mark marten writes i am looking for a new tank bag now and i wondered if you as follow fj owners could make some suggestions as to what has and has not worked for you if there is already a file on this i apologize for asking and will gladly accept any flames that are blown my way with the fj s large flat gas tank i d imagine that almost anything would work personally i m quite happy with my eclipse standard tank bag blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re opinions wanted help what size dirtbikes did you ride and for how long you might be able to slip into a cc bike like i keep telling people though buy an older cheaper bike and ride that for a while first you might like a interceptor as an example nathaniel zx dod ama
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax tom dietrich txd esd com com wrote parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes i bought it i tried it it is truly the miracle spooge my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km good glad to hear it i m still studying it i think life is now complete the shaft drive weenies now have no comeback when i discuss shaft effect sure i do even though i don t consider myself a weenie rip pithy i m afraid to work on my bike stuff deleted there is also damn little if any shaft effect with a concours so there p ppppppphhhhhttttttt heh heh that s pretty funny so what do you call it instead of shaft effect nathaniel zx damn little if any shaft effect dod ama p s okay so it s flame bait so what
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies on apr gmt xlyx vax cit cornell edu said mike is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive sure in fact you can do a wheelie on a shaft drive motorcycle without even moving just don t try countersteering jerry lotto lotto lhasa harvard edu msfci hogssc bcso ama dod chemistry dept harvard univ it s my harley and i ll ride if i want to
rec.motorcycles	re re inverted fork needed in rec motorcycles matthew mark mueller mm k andrew cmu edu writes help i need the left side inverted fork for a gsx r so i can go to track practice at nelson ledges next weekend hey what do we look like a parts store has it ever occurred to you to visit your dealer and fork out the bucks for a new one what are the chances of someone happening to have a part laying around much less one in working condition sheesh some edu s besides i only have the right side inverted gsx r fork it s already been converted into a floor lamp jeff deeney dod nctr xr shamu jld hpfcla fc hp com ama cohvco cb f llamaha it s too bad that whole families have to be torn apart by something as simple as wild dogs jack handey
rec.motorcycles	first bike honda ascot hi folks i m going to be buying my first bike and i m considering an honda ascot ft with less than k miles does this sound like a reasonable choice is there anything special i need to know thanks nathan
rec.motorcycles	re so do any police ossifers read this stuff j r laferriere writes i was just wondering if there were any law officers that read this i have several questions i would like to ask pertaining to motorcycles and cops what happened to charlie lear he used to have connections didn t he hey this is cyberspace mister you wanna stateside cop ya gotta specify john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan
rec.motorcycles	gs e was re buying advice needed in article afoi te j janvopv cs cmu edu dale james cs cmu edu writes gs e it s a great bike but you d better be damn careful i got a as my third motorcycle deleta the bike is light for it s size i think it s pounds but heavy for a beginner bike heavy for a beginner bike it is pounds it isn t except maybe in some adman s dream with a full tank it s in the area of lbs depending on year etc you re you should have no problem physically managing it the seat is roughly akin to a plastic coated by very firm to very painful depending upon time in the saddle the and versions had a much better seat imo the bike suffers from the infamous suzuki regulator problem i have so far avoided forking out the roughly for the suzuki part by kludging in different honda regulator rectifier units from junkyards the charging system consistently overcharges the battery i have to refill it nearly weekly this in itself is not so bad but battery access is gained only after removing the seat the tank and the airbox my regulator lasted over miles and didn t overcharge the battery the wiring connectors in the charging path did get toasty though tending to melt their insulation i suspect they were underspecified it didn t help that they were well removed from cool air battery access on the earlier bikes doesn t require tank removal after you learn the drill it s pretty straightforward replacement parts like all suzuki parts are outrageously expensive having bought replacement parts for several brands of motorcycles i ll offer a grain of salt to be taken with dale s assessment good luck and be careful dale sentiments i can t argue with or won t dean deeds deeds vulcan edsg hac com
rec.motorcycles	re newbie in article c swox gwi mailer cc fsu edu os xi cs fsu edu writes hey there yea thats what i am a newbie i have never owned a motorcycle this makes it is spring matt ps i am not really sure what the purpose of this article was but oh well neither were we read for a few days then try again curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article c t dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us bob wert writes this person is lbs and fairly small so i don t see weight as too much of a problem but what sort of of advice should i give her before we go i want her to hold onto me rather than the grab rail out back and i ve heard that she should look over my shoulder in the direction we re turning so she leans with me but what else are there traditional signals for slow down or go faster or i hafta go pee etc i ve never liked my passengers to try and shift their weight with the turns at all i find the weight shift can be very sudden and unnerving it s one thing if they re just getting comfortable or decide to look over your other shoulder but i don t recommend having him her shift her weight with each turn too violent also i think someone already said this make sure your passenger wears good gear i sometimes choose to ride without a helmet or lacking other safety gear depends on how squidly i feel but i won t let passengers do it what i do to myself i can handle but i wouldn t want to hurt anyone else so i don t let them on without gloves jacket at least jeans heavy boots and a helmet that fits i really want this to be a positive experience for us both mainly so that she ll want to go with me again so any help will be appreciated go real easy it s amazing how solid a grip you have on the handle bars that your passenger does not don t make her feel like she s going to slide off the back and snappy turns for you are sickening lurches for her in general it feels much less controlled and smooth as a passenger i can t stand being on the back of my brother s bike and i ride aggressively when i ride and i know he s a good pilot still everything feels very unsteady when you re a passenger thanks bob show off by not showing off the first time out this is where i wanna sit and buy you a drink someday temple of the dog sea bass sears scs cunixb cc columbia edu dod stanley id yamaha xs f bmw r s toyota runner nyc ny
rec.motorcycles	dod confessional i can t help myself i ve tried to be rational to look the other way but everytime it happens its uncontrollable i hate pre s motorcycles at first i thought it was a phase i though i would get used to them it didn t happen i tried gazing at cb s and customs but each time i sadistically pictured them being hurled off of large precipice i also picture a swarm of german tourists cheering and taking holiday snaps but i can t figure that part out what am i to do everytime i read a sig containing some spoked wheel wonder i shudder and feel pity that the poor soul has suffered enough i imagine the owner scrapping out his or her living in a discarded maytag refridgerator box tucked in next to their cx i m hoping for some deliverance i had in the past loathed the milwaukee machine but i can actually begin to understand some of the preaching there must be hope the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about
rec.motorcycles	anybody tape daytona in article c l fy gh acsu buffalo edu v j kb ubvmsb cc buffalo edu mark w olszowy writes i haven t seen anything about it yet but if it s already been mentioned i m sorry for the repost anyways tnn is showing daytona on sunday april at pm to pm est don t miss it it s got a hell of a finish well i looked for it and didn t manage to find it in my listings for tnn has anybody taped it vhs and could they be persuaded to lend it to me after they watch it i would be most greatful jon wright now how the hell did pages software inc dod that come outa my mouth vfr f
rec.motorcycles	re women s jackets was ed must be a daemon child in article apr colorado edu bowmanj csn org jerry bowman writes in article bethdc juzw f netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu jhensley nyx cs du edu john hensley writes beth dixon bethd netcom com wrote new duc ss doesn t so i ll have to go back to carrying my lipstick in my jacket pocket life is so hard my wife is looking for a jacket and most of the men s styles she s tried don t fit too well if they fit the shoulders and arms they re too tight across the chest or something like that anyone have any suggestions i m assuming that the v pilot in addition to its handy storage facilities is a pretty decent fit is there any company that makes a reasonable line of women s motorcycling stuff more importantly does anyone in boulder or denver know of a shop that bothers carrying any there s an article in motorcycling a couple of months back specifically on women s attire for serious and not so serious riding they do mention who makes stuff specific for women s dimensions and what also works ok enough as well bates will make custom jackets and leathers for a reasonable charge jon wright now how the hell did pages software inc dod that come outa my mouth vfr f
rec.motorcycles	re wanted advice for new cylist blaisec sr hp com blaise cirelli writes so the question i have is how dangerous is riding sorta the next question i have is what bike would you recommend for a first time rider honda hawk ymmv paul thompson apple computer
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well as a few of you so aptly put it get off the road jerk we don t wanna hear your whining fine fuck off too if you noticed it was in more than two years ago and yes i ve learned and it s cost me and yes i ve known people friends and relatives who ve been involved in drunk related accidents not them they were hit and my cousin is still recovering no i can t take back what happened yes it was stupid but by reminding me about it all the time you re neither helping me or yourself so stuff your opinion hey man you brought it up i agree completely driving drunk is really stupid and i understand and appreciate that you feel bad about it but dwi is endemic in our society it is a real problem and we as motorcyclists can be in the worst of vulnerable positions around a drunk driver alert readers might remember that last year i witnessed a dwi accident right bloody in front of me and was unable to save the life of one of the participants as i reported here also drunk driving by motorcyclists is a prime cause of their injury and death which raises the insurance rates forces stupidly restrictive laws and turns the public against those of us who ride responsibly in my view drunk driving should carry a mandatory prison sentence it is one of the traffic offenses which is not a public funds issue but a genuine safety issue so if you bring up the subject on rec moto admitting having been caught dwi and looking for sympathy over the consequences don t expect people to respond with warm wishes dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of you and the beav should lighten up esp the beav i agree that dui dwi is serious we should have reasonable laws strict enforcement and tough sentences but andrew did not post looking for sympathy over the consequences he posted asking for advice because he had an extremely high quote his post was obviously valid because he later found insurance for less he noted why he was in his predicament but did not defend in any way drunk driving and has renounced drunk driving there are too many repeat offenders to worry about and other bdc why try to make this person who is no longer part of the problem an outcast he has paid his debt to society step off the high horse we have all been irresponsible in the past with that said i m guilty of the same type of hostility towards rapists i think it comes because i feel the punishment is not severe enough the same may be true of dwi dui if that is the case then it is our stinkin gubment we need to change if we had a reasonable law about dwi dui with a stiff penalty then fewer people would do it at any rate andrew as paid his debt as defined by the law if you think that debt is actually greater than the law mandates tell your representatives jack waters ii dod i don t fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when i m still asleep that i worry about
rec.motorcycles	re extraordinary footpeg engineering in article qt d fj vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes exb csdvax csd unsw edu au wrote let me guess you were making a left turn correct the edge of the stud contacting the road caused it to turn and unthread itself if you had been making a right turn it would have tightened the stud bzzzt thanks for playing if he d been making a right turn the sucker would have been a couple feet off the ground michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re fj owners tankbag suggestions wanted martenm chess ncsu edu mark marten writes i am looking for a new tank bag now and i wondered if you as follow fj owners could make some suggestions as to what has and has not worked for you if there is already a file on this i apologize for asking and will gladly accept any flames that are blown my way i ve got a belstaff tankbag on my fj and it ain t too good it s difficult to fix it securely cos of the the tank fairing sidepanel layout and also with the bars on full lock the bag touches the handlebar switches so you get the horn on full left lock and the starter motor on full right if i was buying another i think i d go for a magnetic one
rec.motorcycles	re help which bikes are short i m not sure on the older bikes but the yamaha virago has spec d seat height of in and the honda shadow in
rec.motorcycles	need maintenance tips after reading the service manual for my bike suzuki gs e i have a couple of questions i hope you can answer when checking the oil level with the dip stick built into the oil fill cap does one check it with the cap screwed in or not i am more used to the dip stick for a cage where the stick is extracted fully wiped clean and reinserted fully then withdrawn and read the dip stick on my bike is part of the oil filler cap and has about inch of threads on it do i remove the cap wipe the stick clean and reinsert it with without screwing it down before reading the service manual calls for the application of suzuki bond no b on the head cover i guess this is some sort of liquid gasket material do you know of a generic cheaper substitute my headlight is a halogen w bulb is there an easy brighter replacement bulb available where should i look for one as always i very much appreciate your help the weather in philadelphia has finally turned warm this weekend i saw lotsa bikes and the riders all waved a nice change of tone from what philadelphia can be like chris christopher g karras internet cgkarras world std com
rec.motorcycles	wanted advice for new cylist ditto in article c r ey mq srgenprp sr hp com blaisec sr hp com blaise cirelli writes i m thinking about becoming a bike owner this year w o any bike experience thus far i figure that getting a decent used bike for under k the thing would pay for itself while i m at grad school car permits are where i m going and who want s to ride a bus i m looking for advice on a first bike best models years i m not looking for an old loud roaring thing that sounds like a monster the quit whirring of newer engines is more to my liking apprec any advice thanks bs
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes mjs well there are just as many courses here and elsewhere that do not mjs teach the technique yet seem to be rather successful sure you don t miss what you never had those poor sods don t know what they re missing i guess ignorance is bliss eh mike mr bill bill leavitt cbx white lightning gs g suzibago leavitt cs umd edu cj little honda lone star sick leave dod ama icoa nia impala convertible the incredible hulk others hmmm i thought bore and stroke was the technique michael bain
rec.motorcycles	re story lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes allowed yes there is a god no open containers on the street was the signs in the bars yeah right the or so cops on hand for the couple of thousand of bikers in a block main street were not citing anyone the street was filled with empty cans at least feet deep in the gutter the crowd was raisin hell tittie shows everywhere can you say party and still we wonder why they stereotype us erc
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks being a mere female i have often found i can t really take the big offensive line with asshole car drivers so i found a more subtle and nastly ooops i mean nasty way to get back at them if somebody cuts you up just wait till they have pulled out past you and then gently lean over and bend their aerial every time i have done that it has eventually snapped off near the base which tends to go undetected for a while and is a bummer to replace gillian
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes mjs no no no no all i am saying is that you don t even need to tell people mjs the technique of countersteering cos they will do it intuitively the first mjs time they try to go round a corner karr cs cornell edu david karr writes karr are you sure remember that you can get around corners without karr countersteering in fact my experienced rider course instructors karr claimed that they could get on behind a new rider and make the bike karr turn to whichever side they wanted just by shifting their weight karr around even when the operator was trying to turn in the opposite karr direction i admit i ve never actually seen this i ve experienced this back when i was young er and more foolish my first bike used to track extremely true going down the highway i would set the throttle tension screw up enough to hold the gas steady slide back on the seat and lean against the backrest riding without any hands if i needed to turn i d shift my weight into the turn and lo and behold the bike would turn sans touching the bars granted it wouldn t turn very fast but it proves that you can turn a bike without countersteering at least not in terms of the input to the bar normally associated with countersteering as i ve said i know many people who think all you do is lean and any input they re giving to the bar is totally unconscious whereas that may be sufficient to get you down the road under normal circumstances possibly for years at a stretch i can t think of anybody who d argue that this is preferable to properly knowing how to manipulate the bar in a turn regardless of what you want to call it except maybe for mr sixsmith mr bill bill leavitt cbx white lightning gs g suzibago leavitt cs umd edu cj little honda lone star sick leave dod ama icoa nia impala convertible the incredible hulk others hmmm i thought bore and stroke was the technique michael bain
rec.motorcycles	insurance discount hola amigos quiero i need an answer to a pressing question i now own two bikes and would love to keep them both one is a capable and smooth street bike low and lightweight with wide power and great brakes the other is a beemer g s kind of rough for the city but great on the long road and backroad a good start at a stable but i don t think it s going to work unfortunately insurance is going to pluck me by the short hairs unless some insurance agent offers a multi vehicle discount they do this all the time for cars assuming that you re only capable of driving one of the things at a time i don t think i ll ever manage to straddle both bikes and ride them tandem down the street turn left accelerate the zephyr turn right accelerate the beemer does anybody know of an agency that makes use of this simple fact to discount your rates state farm doesn t by the way i m moving to the bay area so i ll be insuring the bikes there and registering them to ease me of the shock can somebody guesstimate the cost of insuring a zr and a r gs here in tucson they only cost me full and liability only for the two per annum muchas gracias enrique
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article c t dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us bob wert writes i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my ninja this will be the the first time i ve taken anyone for an extended ride read farther than around the block we ll be riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road mt hamilton loop for you sf bay areans communication work out your own system or just slow down and holler back every once in a while at reasonable speeds even on my under muffled magna we can hear each other it s only above say mph that you can t really communicate balance new passengers are a real pain because you never know how they re going to react to steering some people catch on immediately and lean with me others are completely skittish about the leaning thing and keep their bodies perpendicular to the horizon this is a pain while turning but manageable the worst are the passengers who stay perpendicular to the horizon then remember in the middle of a turn and whip around until they re in the correct position this always screws up the line i ve picked out here s my personal checklist of things to tell passengers attire helmet long pants boots heavy shoes jacket keep feet on pegs at all times unless i say otherwise do not get on off unless i say you can i ve had people try to dismount in traffic just as i m pulling in to a parking space muffler gets hot nuff said we get good traction we re not going to fall over many first time riders are surprised by how tightly you can turn turn dynamics sit so that you feel like you re sitting upright and we re going straight trust your butt not your eyes if you re confused close your eyes for a couple of turns to get the feel of it or just hug me tight please no sudden moves shift your weight as desired but be gradual so i can compensate your faceplate is yours to open close as desired trust is essential trust the driver me to do the right thing i ve driven many miles on this thing and know how to operate it enjoy the ride this is important to stress for example one of my first time passwngers seemed to watch the speedo like a hawk i drove her to the beach down and whever we topped mph she d holler slow down i m scared i humored her for a while then simply covered the speedometer with the spare piece of duct tape i keep stuck to the top of the cluster problem solved she watched the scenery instead of the instruments and had a much better time based on her experience driving a lincoln continental she was unwilling to trust my ability to choose a safe speed for the bike usually i ll point out the controls engine transmission brakes tires etc and discuss motorcycle physics a bit too for first timers helps calm their nerves and gives the bike a chance to warm up watch out for gravel on the mt hamilton road there were lots of little mudslides after the last big rain by now many of the blind corners will be nicely covered with a carpet of little round nearly invisible stones it doesn t help build trust when you slide out on a blind corner on the first trip good luck have fun don t drink soap dilute dilute ok
rec.motorcycles	re it ain t for me in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes i am confused like that s a surprise someone asked me for a copy of the faq via e mail as i am not the kotfaq i was wondering what the proper responce is our panel of judges has deliberated the question and the answer is send the requester one copy and then gang faq yourself blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well as a few of you so aptly put it get off the road jerk we don t wanna hear your whining fine fuck off too well it still looks like you ve got an attitude problem mr muttonhead you should take the comments with more sensitivity i still despise most people who belittle drinking and driving since my first girlfriend was killed by such an asshole back in learn to take the verbal abuse if you can t take the flames and you can t use your brains stay out of the newsgroup the beav mike beavington bellnorthernresearch ottawa ont canada dod seca seca rz seca suzuki seca turbo v sabre gts can t afford the mbeaving bnr ca this company has no idea what i am talking about
rec.motorcycles	first bike anyone i am a serious motorcycle enthusiast without a motorcycle and to put it bluntly it sucks i really would like some advice on what would be a good starter bike for me i do know one thing however i need to make my first bike a good one because buying a second any time soon is out of the question i am specifically interested in racing bikes cbr f gsx r i know that this may sound kind of crazy considering that i ve never had a bike before but i am responsible a fast learner and in love please give me any advice that you think would help me in my search including places to look or even specific bikes that you want to sell me thanks jamie belliveau jbc andrew cmu edu
rec.motorcycles	first bike anyone i am a serious motorcycle enthusiast without a motorcycle and to put it bluntly it sucks i really would like some advice on what would be a good starter bike for me i do know one thing however i need to make my first bike a good one because buying a second any time soon is out of the question i am specifically interested in racing bikes cbr f gsx r i know that this may sound kind of crazy considering that i ve never had a bike before but i am responsible a fast learner and in love please give me any advice that you think would help me in my search including places to look or even specific bikes that you want to sell me thanks jamie belliveau jbc andrew cmu edu
rec.motorcycles	re comments on a honda interceptor jearls tekig pen tek com jeffrey david earls writes in article apr skyfox howp skyfox writes hi i am considering the purchase of a honda cc interceptor for cdn about us i don t know the mileage on this bike but from the picture in the rv trader magazine it looks to be in good shape can anybody enlighten me as to whether this is a good purchase oog i hate to jump in on this type of thread but pass on the vf it s big top heavy and carries lots of expensive parts what he said most of my friends refer to them as ground magnets one jeff earls jearls tekig pen tek com dod kottg kotspt wmtc ama fj millennium falcon squid factor klr thumpy hit the button chewie han solo there ain t nothin like a mph sweeper in the idaho rockies me dean woodward you want to step into my world dean fringe rain com it s a socio psychotic state of bliss virago guns n roses my world dod
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages i agree with this after all when you grab under his chin and are careful to keep your hands away from his twisting head what is he going to do tailwag you to death i even had one occasion where i was unexpectedly jumped by a lb german shepherd and grabbed his upper jaw in one hand and his lower jaw in the other now i m holding his mouth open no way is he strong enough to clamp down and he can do nothing however all this macho shit aside the fact is that when you are riding a bike and a dog is arrowing to intercept it may be unwise for you to stop and try to deal with the dog for the simple fact that it might be through your leathers and working on your jeans before you can dismount and deal with it properly by all means if you do kick the dog or otherwise get its attention stop and stay there if you kick the dog and ride away that is a victory for the dog it drove you out of its territory it is not even a qualified victory it is a victory if you kick it and stop and sit there of dogs will say oh shit this guy s serious and back off now you have established your dominance over the dog and it probably will not bother you again llamas however are a different story if you stop near a llama it will just hop on and insist on a ride and that s if you re lucky if it doesn t like you it ll barf you off the bike and steal it curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re question about helmets on the other side of the fence i owned a bieffe off road helmet took what i would consider a minor fall and had visible damage to the shell yes the helmet did its job but the damage impact ratio was scary i own bell moto now have taken impacts on order of twice the bieffe impact we do this frequently in mx and don t even have a scratch on it after two seasons my recommendation is to buy high quality gear ymmv mark
rec.motorcycles	re women s jackets was ed must be a daemon child in article bethdc juzw f netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu jhensley nyx cs du edu john hensley writes beth dixon bethd netcom com wrote new duc ss doesn t so i ll have to go back to carrying my lipstick in my jacket pocket life is so hard my wife is looking for a jacket and most of the men s styles she s tried don t fit too well if they fit the shoulders and arms they re too tight across the chest or something like that anyone have any suggestions i m assuming that the v pilot in addition to its handy storage facilities is a pretty decent fit is there any company that makes a reasonable line of women s motorcycling stuff more importantly does anyone in boulder or denver know of a shop that bothers carrying any i was very lucky i found a jacket i liked that actually fits hg makes the v pilot jackets mine is a very similar style made by just leather in san jose i bought one of the last two they ever made finding decent womens motorcycling gear is not easy there is a lot of stuff out there that s fringed everywhere made of fashion leather made to fit men etc i don t know of a shop in your area there are some women rider friendly places in the san francisco san jose area but i don t recommend buying clothing mail order too hard to tell if it ll fit bates custom makes leathers you might want to call them they re in l a and get a cost estimate for the type of jacket your wife is interested in large manufacturers like bmw and h g sell women s lines of clothing of decent quality but fit is iffy a while ago noemi and lisa sieverts were talking about starting a business doing just this sort of thing don t know what they finally decided beth seems to me that johns h d in ft collins used to carry some honest to god womens garb beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr excitable girl dod yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ss ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged zz top
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article apr newbridge com bradw newbridge com brad warkentin writes zero to very fast very quickly lastest rumor is hp at the rear wheel handles like a dream in a straight line to and then gets a tad upset according to a review in cycle world cornering er well you can t have everything sure you can have everything if by everything you mean fast straight line performance and handling present day liter sport bikes have more horsepower and have faster and mile times than the v max plus they corner just a bit better seriously handling is probably as good as the big standards of the early s but not compareable to whats state of the art these days very true randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re solar battery chargers any good in article apr csd newshost stanford edu robert xenon stanf ord edu robert kennedy writes i ve seen solar battery boosters and they seem to come without any guarantee on the other hand i ve heard that some people use them with success although i have yet to communicate directly with such a person have you tried one what was your experience how did you use it occasional charging long term leave it for weeks etc robert kennedy i have a cheap solar charger that i keep in my car i purchased it via some mail order catalog when the year old battery in my oldsmobile would run down during summer when i was riding my bike more than driving my car knowing i d be selling the car in a year or so i purchased the charger believe it or not the thing worked the battery held a charge and energetically started the car many times after or weeks of just sitting eventually i had to purchase a new battery anyway because the winter sun wasn t strong enough due to its low angle i think i paid or for the charger there are more powerful more expensive ones but i purchased the cheapest one i could find i ve never used it on the bike because i have an e z charger on it and keep it plugged in all the time the bike is garaged arnie skurow
rec.motorcycles	re what is it with cats and dogs in article qk mqinn e emory mathcs emory edu gnome pd org writes james bessette jimbes cbnewsj cb att com wrote in article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com ken snyder writes ask the breeder why they also chase bmws also cam chain in that case why do they chase st s goldwings tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorc in qjmf d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes in article castle ed ac uk wbg festival ed ac uk w geake writes an apartment complex where i used to live tried this only they put the thing over the driver s window so they couldn t miss it a friend damned near wrecked on the way home one night her vision blocked by the sticker i suggested to the manager the enormous liability they be careful about putting stickers on cages windows hmmm the lddc security guards over here in docklands only place parking stickers on the drivers side windows but on reflection that could still cause an accident suppose it s because people aren t as litigious over here as in the states stephen stephen dunne mag dod sdun isma demon co uk international securities market association i speak for me thats all voice fax pgp public key available we are not affiliated to any other demon co uk site
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes tale of bike eating devil dog deleted moral i m not really sure but more and more i believe that bikers ought to be allowed to carry handguns come to louisiana where it is legal to carry concealed weapons on a bike dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re neck reining was countersteering faq please post in article qmetg g n sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes basically there are two ways to steer a horse plow rein and neck rein plow reining steers him by keeping the reins separate and you pull in the direction you wish to go neck reining steers a horse by holding the reins together in one hand and pulling against the horse s neck in the direction you wish to go when training a plow steering horse to neck rein one technique is to cross the reins under his necks thus when neck reining to the left the right rein pulls against the right side of the neck but the left side of the bit which the horse is used to from his plow reining days i learned when riding bareback as a kid to palm reign by just pushing on the right side of the horse s neck with your right palm to turn left a lot like countersteering so that came pretty easy to me in the transition to motorcycles it took a while however to break my habit of kicking the rear fender with my heels to go faster steve steve l moseley moseley u washington edu microbiology sc phone university of washington fax seattle wa
rec.motorcycles	re changing sprocket ratios honda cb in article c k bm btb ms uky edu cbrooks ms uky edu clayton brooks writes do any honda gurus know if i can replace the the front sprocket on my honda cb k with a slightly larger one i see this as being preferable to reducing the size of the rear one that s a twin cam right there s a steel guard right next to the sprocket to keep a broken chain from punching a hole in the engine cases and it s needed there s probably not enough room to fit a bigger sprocket i d be inclined to take two teeth off the rear for a ratio change rather than adding one to the front for about if you raise the overall gear ratio too much you ll impair the bike s rideability because the gears will be far enough apart that there will be only one gear that provides adequate response at any given speed honda s don t have the widest of power bands chuck karish karish mindcraft com x karish pangea stanford edu
rec.motorcycles	re bike sold over net miles away in a previous article essbaum rchland vnet ibm com alexander essbaum says in article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com ken snyder writes any other bikes sold long distances out there i d love to hear about it i bought my vfr from a guy in san jose via the net that s miles according to my odometer mark andy living in pittsburgh bought his rz from a dude in massachusetts or was it connecticut i sold a bike via the net to a young lady who lived in salt lake city i live near lost angeles it turned out we had mutual aquaintances at ucla as well al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don t you know that girls can t play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.motorcycles	re protective gear i second the boots oil spots from cars are particularly slippery when parking the bikes and good boots help here as well squid
rec.motorcycles	re changing sprocket ratios honda cb in article ax b w w cellar org craig cellar org saint craig wrote it can be done contact chaparell cycle supply hey they even had sprockets for my vf r which is hard to find accesssories for i second that they even had sprockets for my r rs very hard to find john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this sender reply to harmons gyro wv tek com harmon sommer distribution organization usr ens etc organization keywords as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa but right now it is beginning to look suspiciously like throwing money down a rathole let my current membership lapse when it s up for renewal in my case that s not for another years so i d appreciate any hints on what will keep the organization in business that long and preferably longer of course and worth being part of become an activist campaign for an mc insurance program for universal driver rider training before licensing pick a topic dear to your heart and get the organization to act on it barnacles don t move ships
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post sender reply to harmons gyro wv tek com harmon sommer distribution organization usr ens etc organization keywords hey ed how do you explain the fact that you pull on a horse s reins left to go left or am i confusing two threads here unless they have been taught to neck rein then the left rein is brought to bear on the left side of horse s neck to go right equestrian counter steering
rec.motorcycles	for sale i am selling my sportster to make room for a new flhtcu this scoot is in excellent condition and has never been wrecked or abused always garaged sportster standard blue factory cc conversion kit less than miles branch ported and polished big valve heads screamin eagle carb screamin eagle cam adjustable pushrods harley performance mufflers tachometer new metzeler tires front and rear progressive front fork springs harley king and queen seat and sissy bar everything chromed o ring chain fork brace oil cooler and thermostat new die hard battery bike cover price phone hm wk melbourne florida
rec.motorcycles	insurance and lotsa points well it looks like i m f cked for insurance i had a dwi in and for the beemer as a rec vehicle it ll cost me almost bucks to insure year now what do i do i could probably just sell the bike and return my dod number andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article qjn i d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes in article qc c r sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes single track snow vehicles with front skis and snow skis attached to skiers legs deform the surface of the snow creating their own bank ice skates alter the phase of the ice and also carve out their own tracks so what so they have bugger all to do with motorcycles hence any apparent similarity in handling characteristics may or may not be analagous in its underlying physics to that behind motorcycle handling characteristics ok as one last attempt i ll take a different tack we all seem to be in agreement that there are two explanations for why one can use the handlebars to lean a moving motorcycle the question is is one of the effect dominant and which one is it the idea would be to design an experiment which would seaprate the two characteristics and see which effect produces a similar result to the one with which those of us who have bikes are familiar let s look at the one that so far has sparked no controversy on its own gyroscopic precession to examine this alone we would have to get rid of the contact patch effect by not allowing the contact patches to transmit any force the wheels and steering mechanism would have to remain and be attached to a vehicle with about the same weight as a bike through suspension so that the wheels transmit forces to the bike the same way similar to a bikes an experiment would be to ride a bike along a dry road to get moving and to get the wheels spinning then change surfaces to something that won t transmit forces through the contact patches and try a steering manoeuvre to see if the bike leans it probably would since some of us know how easy it is to fall down on ice but we wouldn t get a good idea of how well or what it feels like because without the contact patches we can t turn maybe there s a better way besides even ice doesn t get rid of the contact patch forces altogether so we d have to find a really frictionless surface you d have to try it again with the wheels locked to really know if it was the rotation that did it looking at the contact patch effect only however is fairly simple now we have to find a vehicle that gets the about the same magnitude and direction of cantact patch forces as a motorcycle and transmits them about the same way to the vehicle but without rotating wheels how it gets the contact patch forces is irrelevant we re just looking for something that has contact patches that can go straight and not sideways and skis or skates would do fine i don t know of any snow ski or skate bikes but up here we have the suzuki wetbike that is arranged like a motorcycle but has fat water skis where there should be wheels i think the propellor is in front of the rear ski or something like that but we could try it at a coast to get rid of most of its effect now i admit that this is second hand info although i d love to try one of these but the review in the local cycle rag and a guy in a bike shop that sells them both say that this machine handles very much like a motorcycle in that you countersteer it to turn so we have contact patches that transmit similar forces to a bike s a similar suspension arrangement and no gyroscopes but we do have countersteering conclusion you don t need gyroscopes to countersteer vehicles that have motorcycle like contact patch arrangements we still don t know what real effect the gyroscopes have when they re there but from my observations of how handlebar angle force etc relate to steering in general i m willing to bet that they re not the dominant factor in countersteering if you don t like this conclusion then don t accept it but my motorcycle s behaviour is consistent with it if someone can prove otherwise go ahead i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes do i have to be the one to say it don t be so stupid as to leave your helmet on the seat where it can fall down and go boom true enough i put it on the ground if it s free of spooge or directly on my head otherwise that kind of fall is what the helmet is designed to protect against not exactly the helmet has a lot less energy if your head isn t in it and there s no lump inside to compress the liner against the shell is a drop off the seat enough to crack the shell i doubt it but you can always send it to be inspected i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks in article nielsmm nanna imv aau dk nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen writes the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why did i do the right thing well i used to get mad and either try to communicate my anger to jerks or to uhm educate them in how to improve their manners in traffic now i just try to get them off my tail in heavy traffic i slow down a bit mostly so i have more buffer zone in front to balance the minimal buffer behind but i also often find that the jerk behind will notice traffic moving faster in other lanes switch into one of them and pass me which is fine because then i can keep a better eye on the jerk from behind while looking ahead rather than from in front while splitting my attention between ahead and the mirrors in traffic so heavy that there is no way for the jerk to pass i might pull over as if to look for a street number or name still ignoring the jerk just to get the jerk off my tail if this all sounds well wimpy or un denizenly or pessimistic or perhaps for any psych types passive aggressive consider that i prefer to get my adrenaline jollies from riding rather than from yelling at jerks a ride can improve my whole day while yelling at a jerk is likely for me to ruin my ride or my day with my own anger in the worst case yelling at the jerk could ruin my life since even a tiny jerk in a cage behind me is better armed with the cage than i am on a bike on the other hand you might try subtly arranging to be the last vehicle to legally cross one or more intersections leaving the jerk waiting for cross traffic and thus off your tail or crossing illegally hopefully in front of the waiting police like almost everything here your choices and mileage will vary denis mckeon galway chtm eece unm edu
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this in article shaman wv tek com harmons wv tek com harmon sommer writes as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa but let my current membership lapse when it s up for renewal hints on what will keep the organization in business that long become an activist campaign for an mc insurance program for universal driver rider training before licensing pick a topic dear to your heart and get the organization to act on it barnacles don t move ships you re obviously not referring to any of the three above quoted individuals because barnacles don t each send to the crew of the ship to keep it moving get the organization to act on it is easy to say but says little about what one really can and should do what the organization actually will do is largely determined by the president and directors as far as i can see that s what makes it so important to vote in an election of officers it does strike me that the bmwmoa is a lot less politically active in the state and national arenas not infighting than other m c organizations should we change this or just join the other groups that already are in politics incidentally the political hazards to motorcycle riders in the us at the moment don t compare to the problems of some other groups like gun owners just try to take up target pistol shooting in the northeast or california and i bet you ll wish you only had to worry about wearing a helmet why does every thread on rec moto eventually come around to guns david karr karr cs cornell edu
rec.motorcycles	looking for women s motorcycle helmet i m looking to buy a used motorcycle helmet i m interested in a full face shield but not necessarily a helmet with the piece around the chin please email me directly janice kendall kendall adobe com decwrl sun adobe kendall onward thru the fog tm oat willie s tm
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article apr ntuvax ntu ac sg ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling from cycle world magazine who usually never says anything bad about any motorcycle the max certainly has motor but there are some things it is short of it is short of chassis it loves straight lines aimed in one it is nicely stable but it is not overfond of corners forced into one it protests shaking its head chattering its front tire grinding its footpegs and generally making known its preference for straight pavement bumps it doesn t like them either its fork isn t too bad though it is soft enough that it can be bottomed under hard braking the shocks though which work on that short travel shaft drive swingarm are firm to the point of harshness dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	ok so i was a little hasty apparently that last post was a little hasy since i called around to more places and got quotes for less than and liability only of course plus one palced will give me c c for my car liab on the bike for only total which ain t bad at all so i won t go with the first place i called that s fer sure andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	xs timing could some kind soul tell me the advance timing revs for a xs special bought in canada thanks
rec.motorcycles	for sale i am selling my sportster to make room for a new flhtcu this scoot is in excellent condition and has never been wrecked or abused always garaged sportster standard blue factory cc conversion kit less than miles branch ported and polished big valve heads screamin eagle carb screamin eagle cam adjustable pushrods harley performance mufflers tachometer new metzeler tires front and rear progressive front fork springs harley king and queen seat and sissy bar everything chromed o ring chain fork brace oil cooler and thermostat new die hard battery bike cover price phone hm wk melbourne florida
rec.motorcycles	re stolen aarghhhh in article jpolito apr sysgem encore com jpolito sysgem encore com jonathan polito writes in article apr microunity com ericm microunity com eric murray writes watch out often when some scumbag steals the cover that means that they were or are looking to steal the bike in my case i had a faded cover stolen off a bmw r rs that was stashed in an apartment carport and not visible from the street they evidently decided the beemer wasn t worth stealing but did try the next night to steal a honda hurricane parked in the next apartment building a neighbor heard them wheeling it out and called the cops i know this is just setting myself up but this is actually one of the things that is really good about bmw bikes from all accounts i ve heard practically no one steals bmws probably it is similar for moto guzzis and other relative exotics since there isn t a large demand for parts and the bike would be much easier to track down it seems that the most stolen bikes are harleys and cc jap sport bikes well i d say you re mostly right but for different reasons btw as of a couple years ago the most stolen bikes in orange county and sf were gsx s and ninjas probably the biggest reason bmws aren t ripped off is that most people who buy bmws will only deal with the actual bmw dealer or mail order types most of these can have their inventory checked fairly easily by law enforcement types and their mark up is usually sufficient to keep them honest about acquiring parts for harleys and rice rockets you ve got different situations there is a huge aftermarket in harley parts so a bike can be parted out fairly easily ditto the non sport japanese bikes but the prices on the parts for these are not as high comparatively for the rockets anytime a bike goes down the plastic is usually cracked and is expensive to replace it s fairly easy then for a disreputable shop to take a fairing from a stolen bike slap it on a bike in for repair repaint it and make a tidy profit the other parts more traceable can be used or discarded if they are too traceable mike disclaimer these opiini h h damn h h q w q wq wq d x exit x q c quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x i t help helpquit d d man help c c e help exit quit q ctrlshftdel hey what does stop l a d
rec.motorcycles	passenger helmet sizing in article qk oi d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes the question for the day is re passenger helmets if you don t know for certain who s gonna ride with you like say you meet them at a church meeting yeah that s the ticket what are some guidelines should i just pick up another shoei in my size to have a backup helmet xl or should i maybe get an inexpensive one of a smaller size to accomodate my likely passenger if your primary concern is protecting the passenger in the event of a crash have him or her fitted for a helmet that is their size if your primary concern is complying with stupid helmet laws carry a real big spare you can put a big or small head in a big helmet but not in a small one while shopping for a passenger helmet i noticed that in many cases the external dimensions of the helmets were the same from s through xl the difference was the amount of inside padding my solution was to buy a large helmet and construct a removable liner from a sheet of closed cell foam and some satin glued to the inside surface the result is a reasonably snug fit on my smallest headed pillion with the liner in and a comfortable fit on my largest headed pillion with the liner out everyone else gets linered or not by best fit michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this bill ranck writes as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa but right now it is beginning to look suspiciously like throwing money down a rathole when you guys sort this out let me know bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va ditto for me tim seiss k s kx
rec.motorcycles	re used bikes east vs west coasts hpcc rec motorcycles groverc gold gvg tek com grover cleveland am apr shop for your bike in sacramento the bay area prices are always much higher than elsewhere in the state gc affirmative check sacramento bee fresno bee modesto stockton bakersfield and other newspapers for prices of motos in the classifieds a large main public library ought to have a number of out of town papers graeme harrison hewlett packard co communications components division w trimble rd san jose ca gharriso hpcc corp hp com dod
rec.motorcycles	paint jobs in the uk can anyone recommend a good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs preferably but not essentially in the london area thanks lisa rowlands alex technologies ltd cp house uxbridge road tel ealing fax london email lisa alex com w lt
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter nick pettefar npet bnr ca wrote kevinh on the tue apr gmt wibbled jonathan quist bemoaned yes it s a minor blasphemy that u s companies would on the likes of a m jaguar or sob lotus it s outright sacrilege for rr to have non british ownership it s a fundamental thing lotus looks set for a management buyout gm weren t happy that the elan was late and too pricey if they can write off the elan development costs the may be able to sell them for a sensible price i think there is a legal clause in the rr name regardless of who owns it it must be a british company owner i e ba can sell the company but not the name kevinh hasler ascom ch i don t believe that ba have anything to do with rr it s a seperate company from the rr aero engine company it s vickers who own rolls royce cars and yes kevin it is posts morgan use a sliding pillar front suspension ob bike at long bleeding last when will that pettefar bloke get a mail address so we can bung him on the ogri list dave david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk queen mary westfield college dod guzzi le mans this means the end of the horse drawn zeppelin
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer wrote grf dropped my shoei rf off the seat of my bike while trying to rock it onto it s centerstand chipped the heck out of the paint on it gravity it ll never let you down er up er lesson put your helmet on the ground or your head if you put it on the ground it isn t gonna fall down to the ground if you put it on your head well tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire wrote egreen east sun com writes tjohnson tazmanian prime com tod johnson x writes sure there are horns but my hand is already on the throttle should we get into how many feet a bike going mph goes in seconds or how long it would take me to push my horn button the answer is feet try something like feet edgetacalculator right rom numbers easy to remember mph ft sec tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re more moa stuff like the ra in article c p b a x world std com artc world std com art campbell wrote ok so we ve got a hotly contested bmwoa election and some inept leadership my question is the history of the bmw organization that lead to the formation of the bmwra was there something going on in the oa years ago that precipitated the formation of two competing owner s groups yep both were started nominally simultaneously splitsville from the start ie if my sources are correct one guy was involved in the start of both groups true tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re bikes and contacts the best thing to do is to get a full face even if it is a cheap brain bucket i didn t think a full face was important until i took a gnarly spill and ended up sliding feet on my face plus with the visor down you also have no worries about your contacts
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes there s also billy jack the wild one smokey and the bandit where jerry reed runs his truck over motorcycle gangs bikes and a video tape documentary on the hell s angels i found in a rental store once
rec.motorcycles	re wanted advice for new cylist the angel levine writes it s exactly as dangerous as it looks did you have anyone in particular in mind there jody
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering to know or not to know what is the question lotto husc harvard edu jerry lotto writes there has been a running thread on the need to understand countersteering i have seen a lot of opinion but not much of it has any basis in fact or study the bottom line is the understanding and ability to swerve was essentially absent among the accident involved riders in the hurt study the average rider does not identify that countersteering alone provides the primary input to effect motorcycle lean by themselves even after many years of practice i would agree entirely with these three paragraphs but did the hurt study make any distinction between an ability to swerve and a failure to swerve in most of the accidents and near accidents that i ve seen riders will almost always stand on the brakes as hard as they dare simply because the instinct to brake in the face of danger is so strong that it over rides everything else hard braking and swerving tend to be mutually exclusive manouvres did hurt draw any conclusions on which one is generally preferable
rec.motorcycles	re looking for women s motorcycle helmet lisa alex com lisa rowlands writes hi janice i don t know if i m being unduly cautious but i wouldn t buy a used helmet not for normal road use anyway you never really know what s happened to them in their past life have fun lisa rowlands i ll second that i saw a list somewhere of all the stuff that it was unwise to buy secondhand stuff like parachutes toilet paper condoms and motorcycle helmets seriously though why take the risk you are extremely unlikely to get a good fitting secondhand helmet cos life just doesn t work like that and as lisa says you never know where it s been before
rec.motorcycles	re cb c with flames out the exhaust in article c quw btq ux cso uiuc edu mikeh ux cso uiuc edu mike hollyman says hi i have an cb custom that i just replaced the cylinder head gasket on now when i put it back together again it wouldn t idle at all it was only running on cylinders and it would backfire and spit flames out the exhaust on the right side the exhaust is mac i bought new plugs today and it runs very rough and still won t idle i am quite sure the fine tune knobs on the carbs are messed up i checked the timing it was fine so i advanced it a little and that didn t help i assume the carbs need to be synched can i buy a kit and do this myself if so what kit is the best for the price any other suggestions thanks in advance mike hollyman it sounds like you got the cam timing off
rec.motorcycles	re antifreeze coolant in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna says for those of you with motorcycles of the liquid cooled persuasion what brand of coolant do you use and why i am looking for aluminum safe coolant preferably phosphate free and preferably cheaper than gallon can you believe it the kaw dealer wants a quart for the official blessed holy kawasaki coolant no way i m paying that usury thanks chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs i thought that all coolants were aluminum safe any more but i would like to know more since i must tear down my kawasaki again i must add
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance i ve paid many dollars in renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened to all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your so above the rest of the world because you ve never had your own little dd suaree the devil made me do it
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering to know or not to know what is the question on wed apr gmt mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith said mike lotto husc harvard edu jerry lotto writes me the understanding and ability to swerve was essentially absent among me the accident involved riders in the hurt study mike i would agree entirely with these three paragraphs but did the hurt mike study make any distinction between an ability to swerve and a failure mike to swerve yes it was specifically the ability or understanding of the technique which was absent we have made a lot of progress between rider education and responsibility over the last ten twenty years but i am still amazed anytime i teach an erc how many people of many year riding experience discover countersteering for cornering or swerving mike everything else hard braking and swerving tend to be mutually exclusive mike manouvres did hurt draw any conclusions on which one is generally mike preferable the specific recommandation cited in the hurt study was that a formal street strategy like sipde for example was the most important component of any rider education curriculum the specific skills of emergency braking cornering and swerving must be taught and practiced as well but more significant was that of rider did nothing confronted with a potential accident and another third collided or fell over as a result of rider error the choice of specific maneuver is much less significant to the outcome than early detection and the proper execution of any effective countermeasure jerry lotto lotto lhasa harvard edu msfci hogssc bcso ama dod chemistry dept harvard univ it s my harley and i ll ride if i want to
rec.motorcycles	re for johs dhhalden no last pete young on the tue apr gmt wibbled nick pettefar npet bnr ca wrote tsk tsk tsk another newbie bites the dust eh they ll learn newbie sorry to disappoint you but as far as the internet goes i was in baghdad while you were still in your dads bag is this bit funny most of the people who made this group interesting or years ago are no longer around and i only have time to make a random sweep once a week or so hence i missed most of this thread i m terribly sorry based on your previous postings apparently devoid of humour sarcasm wit or the apparent capacity to walk and chew gum at the same time i assumed you were serious mea culpa i know i know subtlety is sort of you know subtle isn t it still it s nice to see that bnr are doing so well that they can afford to overpay some contractors to sit and read news all day that s foreign firms for you and a touchy newbie at that what s the matter too much starch in the undies nick the considerate biker dod concise oxford none gum chewer m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re fortune guzzler barred from bars charles parr on the tue apr gmt wibbled in article apr bnr ca npet bnr ca nick pettefar writes if satan rode a bike cb would you stop to help him of course we riders have to stick together you know besides he d stop for me satan by the way rides a vincent so does god jesus rides an rz the angels get ariels and the demons all ride matchless s i know because they talk to me through the fillings in my teeth regards charles dod rz within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person i think that the vincent is the wrong sort of bike for satan to ride honda have just brought out the cb look in bike magazine which looks so evil that satan would not hesitate to ride it hole dms levi s and a black bomber jacket i m not sure about the helmet oh i know one of those darth vader ones there you go satan anybody seen him lately just a cruisin god would ride a vincent white lightning with rightous injection he d wear a one piece leather suit with matching boots helmet and gloves nick the righteous biker dod concise oxford new non leaky gearbox m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies various posts about shafties can t do wheelies no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground good point john a buddy of mine told me that same thing when i had my bmw r gs i dumped the clutch at rpm hey ito nly revved to or so and you know what he was right uh folks the shaft doesn t have diddleysquatpoop to do with it i can get the front wheel off the ground on my ferchrissake bill wrs gozer mv com bill slack dod but her tears were shed in vain and her every word was lost in the rumble of his engine and the smoke from his exhaust oo o o
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article r ja dpa news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu john r daker says in a previous article xlyx vax cit cornell edu says mike terry asks is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground dod darkman well my last two motorcycles have been shaft driven and they will wheelie the rear gear does climb the ring gear and lift the rear which gives an odd feel but it still wheelies
rec.motorcycles	for sale zephyr hi boys and girls i just bought a beemer r gs and realized abruptly that i am a grad student i first sold my truck yesterday but i need to sell my zephyr too if i can sell it this month great insurance and tags both run out in a couple of weeks otherwise i ll tag and insure it and see what happens it s a very sweet bike miles almost all highway az wy co last summer plus some great rides between here and the border purchased new exactly one year ago apr it s a model it has a good fairing and a luggage rack red very clean perfect maintenance no bullshit i ll spare any further details other than to say i want to keep it and somebody will fit it like a charm not a bike for big people but not a small bike standard upright positioning and good looking smooth power great brakes good karma erik b o d y i s t h e b i k e dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw r gs s o u l i s t h e r i d e r
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack i eagerly await comment the ice princess next door makes a habit of flooring her cage out of the driveway when she sees me coming probably only hits mph or so i made the mistake of waving to a neighbor she has some sort of grudge now i was riding downhill at mph on a local backroad when a brown dobie came flashing through the brush at well over mph on an intercept course with my front wheel the dog had started out at the top of the hill when it heard me and still had a lead when it hit the road the dog was approaching from my left and was running full tilt to get to my bike on the other side of the road before i went by rover was looking back at me to calculate the final trajectory too bad it didn t notice the car approaching at mph from the other direction i got a closeup view of the our poor canine friend s noggin careening off the front bumper smacking the asphalt and getting runover by the front tire it managed a pretty good yelp just before impact peripheral imminent doom i guess the driver didn t see me or they probably would have swerved into my lane the squeegeed pup actually got up and headed back home but i haven t seen it since sniff sometimes fate sees you and smiles rick
rec.motorcycles	for sale sigh for sale reluctantly classic bike yamaha xs twin original miles always stored inside front end with aftermarket tapered steering head bearings racer s supply rear bronze swingarm bushings tsubaki chain pirrhana fairing with headlight cutout one up carrera racing seat superbike bars velo stacks on twin carbs also have original seat tank is original cherry white paint with no scratches dents or dings needs a new exhaust as original finally rusted through and was discarded i was in process of making kenney roberts tt replica cafe racer when graduate school marriage child precluded further effort wife would love me to unload it it does need re assembly but i think everything is there i ll also throw in manuals receipts and a collection of xs society newsletters and relevant mag articles great fun classic bike with over k invested will consider reasonable offers timothy j shickley ph d director neurourology departments of urology and anatomy cell biology temple university school of medicine north broad st philadelphia pa voice data voice fax internet shickley vm temple edu bitnet shickley templevm bitnet icbm n w w
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes interestingly the one thing that never happened was that the bike never moved off course unfortunately i am one of the negative impaired the above sentence says i believe that the bike did move off course of course michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re cobra locks steve bunis se southwest chicago doc webrider central sun com wrote i was posting to alt locksmithing about the best methods for securing a motorcycle i got several responses referring to the cobra lock described below has anyone come across a store carrying this lock in the chicago area any other feedback from someone who has used this what about the new yamaha cyclelok from the photo in motorcyclist it looks the same hardened steel as a kryptonite u lock except it folds in five places it seems to extend out far enough to lock the rear tire to the tube of a parking sign or similar anyone had any experience with them how easy is it to attack the lock at the jointed sections tony
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist writes rolls royce owned by a non british firm ye gods that would be the end of civilization as we know it why not ford owns aston martin and jaguar general motors owns lotus and vauxhall rover is only owned by honda dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	bike advice i have an kawasaki kx it is in mint condition and starts on the first kick every time i have outgrown the bike and am considering selling it i was told i should ask around does that sound right or should it be higher lower also i am looking for a used zx how much do i have to spend and what year should i look for to get a bike without paying an arm and a leg thanks for the help rob fusi rwf lehigh edu
rec.motorcycles	re bmwmoa controversy in article apr pb esac uucp prahren pb esac uucp peter ahrens writes in article rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes vech ra msstate edu craig a vechorik writes good ol boys that have been there too long while i agree with you that the current board is garbage voting you in would simply be trading one form of trash for another do the opponents of your selections get equal time yo joe why don t you post what you really think if there are any rational bmwmoa folks left out there may the rest of us please have a brief summary of the current state of affairs in your esteemed organization together with an historical outline of how you got to the above contretemps now you know why i am just a dod member i like bikes and clubs but the politics and other b llsh t is a real turn off tuba irwin i honk therefore i am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r
rec.motorcycles	test test
rec.motorcycles	re bat helmet cbd from christopher bradley devlin cd i andrew cmu edu cbd but it s nothing compared to the ahem unique helmet cbd design seen in the new animated series it has a huge opening for his cbd mouth topped by the world s tiniest eyeslits above the enormous mouth cbd opening batman s helmet probably cuts you down to about degrees of cbd unrestricted vision with a helmet like this he might just be better cbd off with the leather cap mask thingy cbd c mon batman doesn t need to see he s batman cbd did you notice he only takes the bike out in the snow or rain so let s see what we have on the batdude so far he has a weird helmet he drags his knee in corners thanks cookson but how does he do it hidden bat pucks and he only takes the bike out in the snow or rain also he lets robin ride i think i could have used a bat mom would have made getting my license a lot easier there s a trend here stylish helmet stylish knee dragging rides only in stylish cartoon precipitation hmm could it be that we re dealing with a veritable airborne mammalian poseur dare i say it a bat squid huh bat squid it all adds up now let s make the b man an honorary dod dude all he needs is a dod sticker actually anyone have an address for batman s current artists both comic book and animated series we ll write and ask if batman would like to become an honorary denizen yeah special to the kotl is there a precedent for inducting an imaginary member with an imaginary motorcycle having seen the computers in the bat cave i think we can safely assume that he also has imaginary internet access ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live slmr a my virtual reality check just bounced computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack my previous posting on dog attacks must have generated some bad karma or something i ve weathered attempted dog attacks before using the approved method slow down to screw up dog s triangulation of target then take off and laugh at the dog now far behind you this time it didn t work because i didn t have time riding up the hill leading to my house i encountered a liver and white springer spaniel no relation to the springer softail or the springer spagthorpe a close relation to the spagthorpe viking actually the dog encountered me with intent to harm but i digress i was riding near the unpainted centerline of the roughly foot wide road doing between forty and sixty clicks mph for the velocity impaired the dog shot at me from behind bushes on the left side of the road at an impossibly high speed i later learned he had been accelerating from the front porch about thirty feet away heading down the very gently sloped approach to the side of the road i saw the dog and before you could say sipde he was on me boom i took the dog in the left leg and from the marks on the bike my leg was driven up the side of the bike with considerable force making permanent marks on the plastic parts of the bike and cracking one panel i think i saw the dog spin around when i looked back but my memory of this moment is hazy i next turned around and picked the most likely looking house the apologetic woman explained that the dog was not seriously hurt cut mouth and hoped i was not hurt either i could feel the pain in my shin and expected a cool purple welt to form soon sadly it has not so i m left with a tender shin and no cool battle scars interestingly the one thing that never happened was that the bike never moved off course the not inconsiderable impact did not push the bike off course nor did it cause me to put the bike out of control from some gut reaction to the sudden impact delayed pain may have helped me here as i didn t feel a sudden sharp pain that i can remember what worries me about the accident is this i don t think i could have prevented it except by traveling much slower than i was this is not necessarily an unreasonable suggestion for a residential area but i was riding around the speed limit i worry about what would have happened if it had been a car instead of a dog but i console myself with the thought that it would take a truly insane bdi cager to whip out of a blind driveway at mph for that matter how many driveways are long enough for a car to hit mph by the end i eagerly await comment ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live slmr a he s hurt dammit jim i m a doctor oh right computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	re what is it with cats and dogs in article apr cbnewsj cb att com jimbes cbnewsj cb att com james bessette writes in article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com ken snyder writes ps i also heard from a dog breeder that the chains of bicycles and motorcycles produced high frequency squeaks that dogs loved to chase ask the breeder why they also chase bmws also squeaky bmw riders ray shea they wound like a very effective method unisql inc leah unisql ray cs utexas edu some days i miss d boon real bad dod team twinkie hawk gt
rec.motorcycles	re got my bike was wanted advice on cb c purchase in article apr ll mit edu jburnside ll mit edu jamie w burnside writes in article apr ncsu edu jrwaters eos ncsu edu jack rogers waters writes being a reletively new reader i am quite impressed with all the usefull info available on this newsgroup i would ask how to get my own dod number but i ll probably be too busy riding does this count yes he thought about it cat dod faq mailx s hahahha jburnside ll mit edu waiting to press return hey c mon guys and gals i chose my words very carefully and even tried to get my faq s straight don t holler bohica at me around here even mentioning the dod without a number in your sig can get you soundly faqed notice however that i myself did not faq the careful monk he was after all waiting to press return jack waters ii dod i don t fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when i m still asleep that i worry about
rec.motorcycles	re flashing anyone in apr news columbia edu rdc cunixf cc columbia edu robert d castro writes hello all on my bike i have hazard lights both front and back turn signals flash since i live in nj and commute to nyc there are a number of tolls one must pay on route just before arriving at a toll booth i switch the hazards on i do thisto warn other motorists that i will be taking longer than the seconds to make the transaction taking gloves off getting money out of coin changer pocket making transaction putting gloves back on takes a little more time than the average cager takes to make the same transaction of paying the toll i also notice that when i do this cagers tend to get the message and usually go to another booth my question is this a good bad thing to do any others tend to do the same just curious o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o rob castro email rdc cunixf cc columbia edu live for today kz ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa rc tm beleive it or not ny state once considered eliminating tolls for motor cycles based simply on the fact that motos clog up toll booths but then mario realized the foolishness of trading a few hundred k s a year for some relief in traffic congestion too bad he won t take that sumpreme court justice job i thought we might be rid of him forever matt dennie internet mmd wbst v xerox com xerox corporation rochester ny usa reaching consensus in a group often is confused with finding the right answer norman maier
rec.motorcycles	guzzi t tires plus fairing question i have a question about tires for my guzzi it is a t the tires that were on it when i just bought it are old and cracked i do not have an owners manual for it yet but the tires listed in the haynes manual are front h rear h and pressures recommended are front and rear oddly the pressure for the same tire on the t is listed at psi instead anyone know the reason as i know though the pressure i should run at is that recommended by the manufacturer of the new tires i purchase the real question i have is this the old tires that are on the bike are for the front a metzler touring special h and for the rear an avon roadrunner h h as marked on each tire both are larger than that listed in the haynes manual what does the owners manual recommend and was it common to go up one size for this bike also this will be my first motorcycle with innertubes any comments on the various manufacturers inner tube qualities the above sizes are inches except for the additional mark on the current rear tire what is the best metric match the local bmw dealer thought h on the front and h on the back he also happens to be very good at getting close to matching mail order prices i am thinking of going with a metzler me laser possibly comp k on the front and me on the back both in mbs variety if possible the longer lasting belting system i already use the me on both the vision and fj for the front and like it and i thought that with the shaft drive behavior and torque from the guzzi that the me might give more predictable back end control and sliding behavior than a me might as well as giving much better tire milage life any comments a friend told me he thought that my bike had boranni rims which are very good but are relatively soft and have delicate sidewalls i do not wish to mount the tires myself this first time so aside from warning the shop to be careful any other comments i should make i havn t looked at the rim to check out the make yet if it is marked he just told me late yesterday and i havn t had a chance to check the rim type on another note i will remove the ugly but in good shape anyone want it vetter fairing and i will run without a windscreen for a while but eventually i would like a simple rounded cafe style quarter fairing for it it could be fork handlebar mounted any suggestions is there such a thing as a frame mounted quarter fairing of the cafe style for this bike how about lower bars clip ons for it i would like to restore the bike into a good condition runner with a few modern updates but while not being historically exactly accurate still have it reflect relatively well a representation of the cafe style yes i know to be picky that period really predates this bike it is just that this bike has such potential for that look edward walsh hewlett packard company edw boi hp com disk memory division ms p o box boise idaho fj xz rj vision guzzi t dod edward walsh hewlett packard company edw boi hp com disk memory division ms p o box boise idaho fj xz rj vision guzzi t dod
rec.motorcycles	sabbatical and future flames so i begin my week sabbatical in about minutes six wonderful weeks of riding and no phones or email i won t have any way to check mail or setup a vacation agent no sh t though i can dial in and get newsfeed dont ask so if there are any outstanding cfc s or such things please try my compuserve address compuserve com anybody wants to do some weekday rides around the ba send me a mail to above or post here i ll be thinking about all of you stuck if front of your terminals sheeyaahhh and monkeys might fly out of my butt ride safe dave sense ain t common dave warner opinions unlikely to be shared ama hog dod by my employer or anyone else dwarner sceng ub com signature on file dwarner milo ub com compuserve com fxsts t stolen
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article clarke bdrc bd com clarke bdrc bd com richard clarke writes final trajectory too bad it didn t notice the car approaching at mph from the other direction i got a closeup view of the our poor canine friend s noggin careening off the front bumper smacking the asphalt and getting runover by the front tire it managed a pretty good yelp just before impact peripheral imminent doom i guess the driver didn t see me or they probably would have swerved into my lane the squeegeed pup actually got up and headed back home but i haven t seen it since same thing to me everyday the same dog would chase my bicycle the owners thought it was cute even after i got the moto the stupid dog would do the same thing then one day i was coming home in the opposite lane the fluff with teeth ran to get me and played momentum sharing with a dodge pick the owners tried to blame me for driving down street when i did i lived in a wierd town the beav mike beavington bellnorthernresearch ottawa ont canada dod seca seca rz seca suzuki seca turbo v sabre gts can t afford the mbeaving bnr ca parking spaces we don t need no steenkin parking spaces
rec.motorcycles	re insurance and lotsa points in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well it looks like i m f cked for insurance i had a dwi in and for the beemer as a rec vehicle it ll cost me almost bucks to insure year now what do i do go bikeless you drink and drive you pay no smiley mike beavington mbeaving bnr ca opinions are my own and not my companies
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes apparently that last post was a little hasy since i called around to more places and got quotes for less than and liability only of course plus one palced will give me c c for my car liab on the bike for only total which ain t bad at all so i won t go with the first place i called that s fer sure nevertheless dwi is f ckin serious hope you ve got some brains now mike beavington mbeaving bnr ca these opinions are my own and not my companies
rec.motorcycles	re bikes vs horses was re insect impac in a previous article egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher says in article sda usenet ins cwru edu ai cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes the only people who train for years to jump a horse feet are equistrian posers who wear velvet tails and useless helmets which as it turns out is just about everybody that s serious about horses what a bunch of weenie fashion nerds and the helmets suck i m wearing my shoei mountain bike helmet fuck em or i m permanently injured oops too late nah i can still walk unaided go fast take chances mike s
rec.motorcycles	do splitfires help spagthorpe diesels in article c jf djr news cso uiuc edu wcd uxa cso uiuc edu daniel warren c writes earlier i was reading on the net about using splitfire plugs one guy was thinking about it and almost everybody shot him to hell well i saw one think that someone said about show me a team that used split fires well here s some additional insight and some theories about splitfire plugs and how they boost us as oppossed to cages splitfires were originally made to burn fuel more efficiently and increased power for the x cages well for these guys splitfires now i don t know about all of this and i m trying to catch up with somebody about it now but splitfires should help twins more than splitfires work mainly by providing a more or less unshrouded spark to the combustion chamber if an engine s cylinder head design can benefit from this then the splitfires will yield a slight performance increase most noticeably in lower rpm range torque splitfires didn t do diddly squat for my gmc pickup l v but do give a noticeable performance boost in my harley sportster and my best friend s sportster folks i know who ve tried them in evo motors can t tell any performance boost over plain plugs which is interesting since the xlh and big twin evo combustion chambers are pretty much the same shape just different sizes two of my friends who have shovelhead harleys swear by the splitfires but if i had a shovelhead i d dual plug it instead since they respond well enough to dual plugs to make the machine work and extra ignition system worth the expense plus they look really cool with a spark plug on each side of each head neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	re definition of two up so following that logic could you describe two down as the transition period between two up and coming to rest after a high or low side otherwise it sounds pretty good richard pierson e vnet or perhaps it s referring to the wife and child sitting in the sidecar next to the one up on the moto anyone ever heard of a game called oneup onedown it s a drinking game for all you older folx andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re rim needed in article apr news columbia edu twang cunixf cc columbia edu tony wang writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes in article apr walter bellcore com pgoudas gomer bellcore com paul goudas writes also is there a law or something that requires nyc to keep it s street empty of potholes greater than a certain depth i rather my bike hahahahahaahahha whahwuhuhahuah that s a good one really stop i can t breathe bite your tongue those of us who actually ride in nyc on a daily basis could not live without those potholes it ll ruin the flavor it s not enough just to dodge taxis buses pedistrians bicycle messengers and bdi s on a block by block basis those potholes always makes for that sudden randomness that makes it all so much fun besides where else can you think of that allows you to constantly test your panic braking shocks and dirt riding abilities all on city streets you smooth asphalt canyon carvers don t know what you re missing i was laughing about the law part i ve driven thru soho manahattan i know what you re talking bout not that durham nc is any better well maybe a little bit anyway but the nc dot takes more money from road taxes and puts it in their own pockets and into the pockets of the guys building the large condos that need their own roads than they do back into fixing roads but hey the local paper did a report of this last summer and boy am i glad i don t work for the dot cause they got shat on bigtime wonder who lost their jobs ed got any idea andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re aerostitch or piece in article apr vax cit cornell edu na vax cit cornell edu writes request for opinions which is better a one piece aerostitch or a two piece aerostitch like most everyone else i ended up getting two different sizes for the top and bottom my top is a l and the bottom is a l for the bottom the waist is far too large but the thighs fit just right the had a better waist but cut off the circulation in my legs i have large muscular thighs and no i didn t use the thighmaster to get them the jacket fits me ok in the chest slightly snug at the waist and too small in the arms i can t imagine finding a one piece size that would have fit correctly as even the piece has it s problems strange since my v pilot jacket fits great all over and when i tried the matching pants they fit like a glove as well i can only assume the models aero design uses to design its suits are in some way different from us real folks also even though it s related to convienience you look pretty damn wierd walking around with the tops and bottoms while running errands i ve gotten some really suspicious looks and sweated a lot while in a store wearing the whole suit since you can t fit the top and bottom in any motorcycle storage device yet devised except the trunk in my sidecar rig with the two piece i unzip the pants i generally leave the two pieces zipped together primarily because the pants fall down unless i pull the cheesy elastic belt type band real tight stuff them in one of my spacious bmw saddlebags the pants just fit and run errands just wearing the jacket actually if i know i ll be running errands i just wear my v pilot jacket but that s just me as far as crash protection i d say that both suits are probably equal it seems that for weather protection if anything the piece provides a little more because of the jacket overlapping the pants by inches the piece is probably a little less comfortable around the waist just because of the extra layer of stuff but maybe not so i d have to vote for the two piece despite the slightly odd fit i still find the suit the most versatile piece of riding clothing i own wouldn t go long distance without it ken wallich wallich ncd com ken wallich com kmw al org decwrl vixie amber ken ken wallich wallich ncd com ken wallich com kmw al org decwrl vixie amber ken
rec.motorcycles	re changing sprocket ratios honda cb karish gondwana stanford edu chuck karish writes that s a twin cam right yep i think it s the only cb with a chain after years it s finally stretching into the replace zone honda s don t have the widest of power bands sigh i know i know clayton t brooks from the heart cbrooks ms uky edu pot u o ky of the blue cbrooks ukma bitnet lex ky grass and rutgers uunet ukma cbrooks bourbon country ama nma maa ams acbl dod
rec.motorcycles	re bike advice ummm did you have any bikes other than that kx if not i d suggest you look for an zx since they only have about horsepower whereas the has over and might be a bit much for you sincerely nathaniel zx dod ama
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes on a completely different tack what was the eventual outcome of babe vs the bad mouthed biker i thought i posted this last year the women came to court with three witnesses the two women that were in the car and one neighbor that heard me shouting my lawyer didn t like the odds since there were multiple complaints both ways and the judge had a history of finding everyone guilty of at least something so he convinced us she came without a lawyer to drop everything the net result was a laywer bill for me and court costs for her the only consolation was that she had trouble scraping together the while is not quite one week s beer money for me roid
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article c qqxp ie cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each excuse me for being an ignoramus but what are these edu breaths with more riceburner than brain roid
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle detailing tip re rubbing compound you mean meguire s didn t work the dod magic elixir of choice for plastic stuff ron miller dod
rec.motorcycles	re cobra locks greetings netters steve writes about cobra locks well i have the mother of all locks on friday the th of april i took possesion of a cobra links lock diameter this was a special order i weighs a lot i had to carry it home and it was digging into my shoulder after about two blocks i have currently a kryptonite rock lock through the front wheel a hd padlock for the steering lock a master padlock to lock the cover to two front spokes and the cobra links through the rear swing arm and around a post in an underground parking garage next friday the th i have an appointment to have an alarm installed on me bike when i travel the cobra links and the cover and padlock stay at home by the way i also removed the plastic mesh that is on the cobra links and encased the lock from end to end using bicycle inner tubes two of them i got the from bicycle dealer that sold me the cobra links the guys were really great and didn t mark up the price of the lock much and the inner tubes were free later fxstc rock n roll mike mychalkiw hog ryerson polytechnical institute dod just this side of hell academic computing information centre doh just the other side email acad ryevm ryerson ca
rec.motorcycles	extraordinary footpeg engineering okay dod ers here s a goddamn mystery for ya today i was turning a degree corner just like on any other day but there was a slight difference a rough spot right in my path caused the suspension to compress in mid corner and some part of the bike hit the ground with a very tangible thunk i pulled over at first opportunity to sus out the damage my bike is a kawasaki gpx r with footpegs that are hinged and sprung such that they fold upward and backward on contact with ground etc and on the lower extreme corner of each peg there is mounted a bank follower or a little stud that theoretically is the first bit to hit the ground in a banked turn the stud is mounted on the footpeg by a threaded bit about mm long which screws into a threaded hole in the footpeg now for the mystery the stud on the side of the bike that clunked when i turned was absent i m fairly sure it was there before the event there was no damage to the end of the footpeg where the stud would ordinarily have been in fact the thread in the hole in the footpeg was perfectly intact with no evidence of something having been forcefully ripped out of it only moments previously okay all you engineering types how the f k do you explain this how can you rip a tightly fitting steel thread out of a threaded hole in alloy without damaging the thread in the hole is this some sort of hi tech design thingo that kawasaki never mentioned like that the end of the footpeg suddenly changes phase on impact to let the stud rip out then changes back to a solid i m quite amazed at how this could have happened in the meantime life goes on without a left hand bank follower barry manor dod confused accidental peg scraper
rec.motorcycles	re dogs vs bikes dogs will chase anything that moves i have two dogs and they love chasing me when i ride off they will also chase any car that passes running along the footpath sidewalk at up to kph they don t seem to go after trucks though the size difference must be a factor it also works in my favour though i can exercise them quite easily by riding mile up the road and back a few times ja s minyos rmit oz au
rec.motorcycles	kawasaki zx engine needed i m looking for a kawasaki zx engine just the engine no intake exhaust ignition etc preferably in the central texas area but we haven t had much luck around here so we ll take whatever we can get please reply via mail or call if you have one or more really need a spare thanx jonathan lusky lusky ccwf cc utexas edu turbos are nice but i d rather be blown jeep wrangler for sale rx a holley bbl camaro rs spd
rec.motorcycles	forsale yamaha seca turbo i don t want to do this but i need money for school this is a very snappy bike it needs a little work and i don t have the money for it some details miles mitsubishi turbo not asthetically beautiful but very fast one of the few factory turboed bikes not a kit must see and ride to appreciate how fun this bike is i am asking or best offer the bike can be seen in bennington vermont e mail for more info thanks chris santac rpi edu
rec.motorcycles	bmw k s for sale miles black leather tank bra tank bag corbin seat metzler b tires garaged and pampered i can t afford to continue paying nyc garage fees for two bikes so one of em has to go best offer above takes it stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa o o
rec.motorcycles	re info on sport cruisers in article fonhvm wb e huxb andrew cmu edu jae cmu edu writes i m looking for a sport cruiser factory installed fairings full half hard saddle bags cc and above and all that and still has that sporty look i particularly like the r rs and k rt or s or any of the k series bmw bikes i was wondering if there are any other comparable type bikes being produced by companies other than bmw the honda st was designed by honda in germany originally for the european market as competition for the bmw k series check it out tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re misc buying info needed in article apr hamp hampshire edu jyaruss hamp hampshire edu writes is there a buying guide for new used motorcycles that lists reliability how to go about the buying process what to look for etc cycle world puts one out but i m sure it s not very objective try talking with dealers and the people that hang out there as well as us we love to give advice is there a pricing guide for new used motorcycles blue book most of the bigger banks have a blue book which includes motos ask for the one with rvs in it are there any books articles on riding cross country motorcycle camping etc couldn t help you here is there an idiots guide to motorcycles you re reading it cliff weston dod seca ii tem the female body is a beautiful work of art while the male body is lumpy and hairy and should not be seen by the light of day
rec.motorcycles	re accident report in article jun prl philips nl mcardle prl philips nl owen mcardle writes in article ranck vtvm cc vt edu ranck vtvm cc vt edu wm l ranck writes in article jun bcrka bnr ca whitton bnr ca mark whitton writes it turns out that the trailer lights were not hooked up to the truck yep basic rule never expect or believe turn signals completely around here and many other places people just don t signal at all and sometimes the signals aren t working sometimes they get left on the scary bit about this is the is the non availability of rear lights at all now living in the netherlands i ve learned that the only reliable indicators are those red ones which go on at both sides at once some people call them brake lights once they light up expect anything to occur in front of you it s not just the dutch though however i never realised how much i relied on this until i got caught a few times behind someone whose lights didn t work at all once i d sussed it out it wasn t so bad knowing it is half the battle but it s a great way to find out that you ve been following someone too closely now i try to check for lights all the time cos that split second can make all the difference though it shouldn t be necessary i know owen what used to peeve me in canada was the cars with bloody red rear indicators you d see a single red light come on and think now is he stopping but one brake lamp is not working or does he have those dumb bloody red rear indicators this being survival you have to assume he s braking and take the appropriate actions until such time as the light goes out and on again after which you can be reasonably certain it s a bloody red rear indicator ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx f rg wd si you porsche me pass dod
rec.sport.baseball	spring records the orioles pitching staff again is having a fine exhibition season four shutouts low team era well i haven t gotten any baseball news since march but anyways could they contend yes could they win it all maybe but for all those fans of teams with bad spring records remember earl weaver s first law of baseball from his book on managing no one gives a damn in july if you lost a game in march btw anyone have any idea on the contenders for the o s fifth starter it s pretty much set that sutcliffe mussina mcdonald and rhodes are the first four in the rotation here at johns hopkins university where the mascot is the blue jay their baseball team logo was the toronto club s logo now it s a anatomically correct blue jay god can t they think of an original idea it s even in the same pose as the baltimore oriole on the o s hats how many people realize that the bird is really called a baltimore oriole admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society from red dwarf polymorph the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings
rec.sport.baseball	re eck vs rickey was re rickey s whining again in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david m tate writes i ve read all of the followups to this but i thought i d go back to the original article to make specific comments about the method jao megatest com john oswalt said he has obtained the play by play records in computer readable form for every major league baseball game for the past several years he devised an algorithm which i call sum over situations and wrote a computer program to calculate every major league players contribution using it it works like this look at every situation in every game in a baseball season a situation is determined by inning score where the baserunners are and how many outs there are for each situation count how many times the team eventually won the game that the situation occured in and divide by the number of times the situation came up to come up with a value for that situation this was first done by george lindsey in the late s early s and reported in article an investigation of strategies in baseball author george r lindsey journal operations research issue volume july august pp later pete palmer did the same thing using simulated seasons to generate a larger set of data to avoid the kind of small sample anomalies that other people have worried about he reported this in the hidden game of baseball with john thorn gary skoog modified the method a bit and did some work on what he called a value added measure based on these situational values his were based directly on marginal runs though not on win probabilities these results as applied to the season were reported in one of the bill james baseball abstract books help me out here somebody for example a situation might be inning score runner on second and no outs there were regular season major league games last year with the rockies and marlins there will be more this year say this situation came up in of those and the team ahead won of them then the value of this situation is description of method look at change in win probability based on the at bat plus any baserunning and credit debit the player by that amount each time he gets a plate appearance now for each player sum up all his at bat and base running values for the season to obtain an overall value for that player obviously the sum of all players values for each game and for the season as a whole will be that s only because you always credit x to the batter and x to the pitcher there s no validation involved ok there s a very big problem here that nobody has yet commented on you re adding probabilities and probabilities don t add runs you can add the total team runs breaks down into how many runs joe contributed plus how many runs fred contributed etc but probabilities don t work that way if bob increases his team s chance of winning by in each of pas that does not mean that bob increased his team s chance of winning by in fact it doesn t mean anything because the units are screwy i agree and disagree john is saying that the batters efforts will result in more wins then losses while you are probably correct that does not mean more wins then losses it means something i would rather have a player who increased my teams chances of winning by in each of pas then i would a player who increased my chances of winning by in each of pas thus there appears to me to be an obvious positive association between john s statistic and winning games thus before you disregard this stat it appears to me that further study must go into what sort of relationship there is consider an example bob hits a out solo hr in the bottom of the first about on your scale he does the same thing again in the fourth with the score tied for another and again in the seventh with the score tied for another and finally in the ninth to win the game by a score of for a value of bob hit solo hr in plate appearances and was credited by your method with but what does that mean was bob responsible for the win certainly not the defense is always responsible if you include pitching in that and bob wasn t pitching in fact bob was only of the offense which is a lot but not even close to furthermore what about the other team runs say they all came on solo hr by fred then fred was hitting hr to tie up the game which are just as valuable as hr to take the lead see lindsey and fred will himself have accrued a good rating or so so fred and bob combined have amassed of a win in one game there s clearly a problem here the only problem here is an insistance that these number mean exactly how many wins the team has first we are using averages over many seasons and applying them to one game second remember some players performance take away from the chance of you winning that is a player who gets an out gets a negative probability in most cases thus i m not sure in any given game when you add up all the numbers for a team who won that they will add up to in that game sometimes they will add up to more then one sometime less than one also the pitchers bad performances giving up runs may have given them a large negative percentage for that game also any batter that pulled an night would give large negatives greg thinking about the right things but his intuition is off the mark closers are enormously important the total number of runs value is outweighed by when they come or are prevented from comming the doubling which greg allows is not enough in another article i proposed a test of this we can predict a team s won lost record quite accurately by looking at how many runs total they score and allow without regard to when those runs score in the game if late runs are really more important than early runs then looking only at late runs should lead to a better predictor right no but really only because you have a smaller sample size i would think however that the number of runs you score in the first inning would be just as good as a prediction as how many runs you score in the last inning and realize something else a closer usually comes in in a close situation not a blow out it is hard to argue that any runs that a closer gives up in a game have equal importance to those given up in the first inning look a closer giving up runs often means a team will lose many games on the other hand a starter who gives up runs often still leaves his team a chance to win the offence has many more outs to do something about but i am not saying all late inning situations are equally important either if i am down runs in the ninth it really does not matter how many runs my pitcher gives up in the ninth here s another thought experiment apply this method to basketball what you find is that points scored in the first half of the game have almost exactly no value because no lead is safe with an entire half yet to play furthermore the sub in off the bench who sinks the winning free throws with no time on the clock gets a for the game while the star forward who scored points in the first half before spraining his ankle gets a zero does this make sense no but why would you assume that the teams probability of winning would be before the possesion in which the free throws were made look if you are down point with seconds left there is a fairly high probability that you will win the game if you are in possesion of the ball and do not forget that somebody elses missed shots turnovers fouls bad defense etc caused a negative chance that the team would win from reading all of the discussion on this statistic i feel that those who critisize it to a certain extent are doing so out of an agenda at first look this statistic valadates clutchness but it really does not cluthness revolves around the idea that certain players in crucial situation elevate their performance and others performance goes down i ve never seen convincing proof that this really happens so if you assume there is no clutchness then that means that except for a lot of noice this statistic has a positive association to player performance there is a way to get rid of the noice if you do not believe in clutchness certainly we could find out what the average value of a home run is for example we may find for instance that a home run increases your chance of winning by on average while a strikeout decreases your chance of winning by i bet if this were done we would find that this statistic was just as good as other statistics we have for predicting wins and losses how do we evaluate relief pitchers say john and sam have the exact same pitching statistics runs earned runs k s bb s etc both had exceptional numbers john however only pitched in closer situations while sam was a mop up man who was more valuble to their team probably john who was the better pitcher they were probably about the same brian smith
rec.sport.baseball	re no joke rockies have attendance record hell the orioles opening day game could easily be the largest in history if we had a stadium with seats but unfortunely the yards a definitely excellent ballpark only holds like with sro spots ticket sales for the entire year is moving fast bleacher seats are almost gone for every game this year it s a extremely likelyhood that the o s could sell out every game this year especially if we lead the division for most of the year like on another front the sale of the orioles to anyone is likely to be forced upon eli jacobs who is major debt apparently maybe we can get an owner willing to spend on a proven rightfielder free agent in the winter fernando has made the o s as the fifth starter the o s pitching staff looks pretty good sutcliffe mussina mcdonald rhodes and fernando baltimore is my pick for the victors in a very competitive al east admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society from red dwarf polymorph the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings second to last day of the season gregg the true wild thing olson uncorks a wild pitch allowing the blue jays to tie blue jays win in the th and ends the baby birds miracle season of
rec.sport.baseball	players overpaid there s a lot of whining about how much players are overpaid i thought i d put together an underpaid team that could win a pennant i splurged and let four of the players earn as much as half a million dollars the highest paid player is frank thomas at k i cut some players like kenny lofton chris hoiles keith mitchell tim wakefield and a bunch of pitchers all of whom could have arguably made the team better at a cost of million for the lot of them the total team salary is averaging slightly over k a player if that s too steep you can dump thomas and bagwell replacing them with paul sorrento and a minimum wager to save a bit over a million dollars and still have one of the best teams in the majors p juan guzman p mussina p castillo p eldred p rhodes p militello rp rojas rp beck rp melendez rp hernandez rp nied c rodriguez c piazza b thomas b bagwell b knoblauch b barberie b gomez b palmer ss listach ss pena lf gonzalez cf lankford rf r sanders of plantier ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the u of c law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal
rec.sport.baseball	re rickey henderson in article apr ra msstate edu js isis msstate edu jiann ming su writes i say buy out henderson s contract and let him go bag groceries next season you ll be able to sign him for nothing that goes for any bitching ball player i doubt henderson would clear waivers and if he did he would instantly be signed for the major league minimum with oakland picking up the remaining million tab some gms value on field performance too valentine
rec.sport.baseball	giants win the pennant giants win the pennant giants win the pennant gi ooops i guess i m a little early here see you in october
rec.sport.baseball	re minnesota pitching in article snelson uwsuper edu snelson uwsuper edu scott r nelson writes the rotation has changed due to a strange injury to scott erickson he developed a twinge in the stomach area and has been taken out of the rotation new rotation to the best of my mind s knowledge is kevin tapani jim deshais pat mahomes willie banks add mike trombley in there somewhere since they need five people mark guthrie will remain in the bullpen as the long lefty as to ss and b short will be played by scott leius who played short for much of his career before the twins at third mike pagliarulo and jeff reboulet will platoon pags and terry jorgenson will platoon at third with reboulet as the backup infielder pags looked pretty miserable yesterday for a guy who lead the league in da in muffing what should be routine grounders heck muffing a grounder i would probably have gotten to jorgenson did nothing exceptional that i noticed leius missed a ball i think gagne would have reached we will certainly miss gag s glove this season winfield has struggled during preseason sunday against the colorado rockies he went for with rbis and scored once he looked pretty good there contrary to what the mediots have been saying he looked reasonable at first he isn t mid s hrbek but then neither is the pretty big guy himself any more note i m used to seeing the twins b looking kinda big on the field but not that big if he hits vaguely like last year he s a perfectly good first baseman note much of this posting is from personal observation yesterday in a game where the regulars were mostly pulled after several innings winfield may have big holes in his defensive game that didn t show up he didn t have to pick any bad throws for example but i ll take what i saw so far david thornley have tickets will travel to dome
rec.sport.baseball	brewers injuries hi all i ve been locked in a small closet chained to a lab bench for the last week or two without access to really important information i saw the million shoulder back on the dl how long is he out for i e how many millions inning will he get this year nothing personal against higuera mind you just wondering how bud can keep coffing up money for him when he lets current big producers go over a relative pittance please realize the term relative pittance can only be used with sarcasm when discussing baseball salaries additional questions i did nt get to see bones pitch this spring how is he looking and where is he going to fit in the rotation how is surhoff shaping up defensively at third are they going to build a new stadium when tom
rec.sport.baseball	binaca blast deep drive derby bbddd returns in article piisn asq network ucsd edu king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes a less well publicized part of the now infamous darrin jackson for derek bell trade was the fact that san diego included in the deal even less publicized than this however was that the didn t come from the padres but from an un named source and that the money didn t go to the blue jays in toronto the money was diverted into a london bank account owned by a shadowy character named vincent gray i should be so lucky the account number must have been rejected the odd thing was that gray wasn t some british financier but a canadian social scientist working at the university of western ontario gray was previously known to the authorities only as an associate of john palmer and as the man who had the previous year discovered the true tater name of bing bang ben macdonald to be accurate it is big bang ben macdonald soon after that gray and palmer sent word to ottawa that canada had achieved absolute superiority over the united states in the field of baseballistic research as she controlled both the acker cook pitch alike contest and the binaca blast research institute the prime minister smiled i hope not to think that i would inadvertantly give any pleasure to mulroney really ruins my day ps matthew wall a marvellous ending to the section on the expos okay so i m not giving up the day job but in an effort to help me keep the day job i ve managed to foist the job of running the binaca blast deep drive derby onto vince gray to whom future deep drive related tidbits should be sent vince sscl uwo ca or vince vaxi sscl uwo ca please identify any messages with the subject line bbddd vince can take this post as the cue to chime in about what he plans to do as the new director of the research institute and what kind of body armor ontarians are wearing this spring meanwhile i have to go pick up that truckload of denis boucher cards i bought to fill in the area behind our tool shed jking realizing the taterific importance of this work john palmer and i concluded that we might be able to pool some resources i have not yet gone through the archives that jonathan sent to me when i do i will send out an official introduction to the deep drive derby however i wonder if we need to rename the project now that the principal investigator and research archive have changed send your suggestions for a rename of the study to me at the address given above and just think it s opening day soon the balls will be flying out no get your minds out of the gutter of the ball parks and helpless bystanders will be injured by balls reentering the atmosphere and you thought that meteorite showers were made of rocks who will be the stars this year can anyone hope to combat brad arnsberg s record start to last year the season is young the balls newly rubbed in mud the hot dogs starting to boil for the rest of the year play ball and take cover and may all your sliders hang vince
rec.sport.baseball	re designated hitter rule in article ekdfc ttacs ttu edu ekdfc ttacs ttu edu david coons writes in article apr bsu ucs ecgillespi leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i am doing a postition paper on the designated hitter rule any information or even opinions would be greatly apprecitated ecgillespie magic should be rescinded the rules say baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each let s keep it that way last weeks sports illustrated has a couple of big articles on the designated hitter it is the baseball issue th is weeks sports illustrated
rec.sport.baseball	atas n l games standings of all philadelphia at chicago teams tied for st after sunday dick redding battled chet brewer in the first game of a dramatic four game series one friday one saturday and a good old sunday doubleheader what could be better declared ernie banks perhaps the fact that the cubs are challenging it s pitching it s always been pitching that we ve lacked announced ryne sandberg if we can get by brewer then beat carlton alexander or bunning preferrably of the last three we ll know we might be able to win lord i hope we pull it off the phils scored once in the top of the first richie ashburn singled pete rose followed with a hit sending ashburn around second kiki cuyler cut the ball off in left center and threw a bullet in to ernie banks who threw to ron santo to get ashburn at third rose went to second on the play christobel torrienti lifted a long fly to center moving pete rose to third schmidt was walked the cubs were absolutely refusing to let him beat them both torrienti and schmidt will likely draw walks this year chuck klein is starting to hit very well and he lashed a double into a gap in right center cool papa bell s speed allowed him to cut the ball off and prevent schmidt from scoring nellie fox was walked and bob boone grounded out to second ending the threat teams are starting to realize that you don t have to pitch to schmidt or torrienti and that is lowering their run total it puts a lot of pressure on klein and dick allen who platoons with chuck klein and occasionally spells rose at first and it s a credit to the phillies that they ve been able to sustain their pace the picthers have slumped at times so came the analysis from frank chance the cubs got that run back when bell bunted for a hit thomas grounder moved him to second and after sandberg made out billy williams singled home a run in the sixth ron santo launched a two run homer to make it dick redding got in trouble in the eighth as schmidt singled and klein singled him to third ed reulbach entered to face fox but dick allen popped out of the dugout to hit allen doubled to right but luckily for the cubs williams had moved to left and andre dawson had been inserted for defense he fired a bullet to home plate to keep klein at third lance parrish hitting for boone was walked and bruce sutter entered larry bowa grounded into a double play but ed delahanty walked as a pinch hitter desiring a strikeout since ashburn was likely to attempt a bunt hit with the quick trillo pinch running at third chance brought in lee smith who induced a pop up to the catcher from the speedy centerfielder ending the inning the cubs took the win moving a game behind the phillies steve carlton was called upon to battle finger brown saturday to get another righthander in the lineup ron santo moved to first and bill madlock played third unfortunately brown allowed six doubles and the cub bullpen was worn down even more as the cubs tried to maintain a lead against lefty madlock batting sixth had knocked two doubles of his own driving home four runs gabby hartnett hit two home runs and cuyler added another and the score was cubs after six innings the phillie bullpen had more troubles in the bottom of the eighth as the cubs grabbed more runs to ice an triumph sunday s twin bill saw cool papa bell gather seven straight hits at one point including a rare outside the park home run in the second game off robin roberts grover alexander of the phils took the first contest but the cubs captured the second one with waddell gaining the win bruce sutter tossed two innings for the save though he allowed one run in the eighth the cardinals stood half a game behind these co leaders and would conclude their series with the expos on monday montreal at st louis august way tie for st dennis martinez is on a roll and he continued it versus john tudor friday the expos have a wide variety of hitters and while they aren t among the all time greats they are getting the job done after winning their first first two games they suddenly found themselves only games out of first in this wacky season martinez triumphed on friday and williams outdueled dizzy dean saturday however the cardinals refused to give up winning on sunday the cards captured monday s game too as steve carlton outdueled steve rogers we re really good against ground ball pitchers because of our team speed remarked lou brock i don t see why we can t win this division the phillies and cubs may have some reasons for them two thirds of the way through the season there is a way tie for first new york at pittsburgh august straight wins for bucs now back but in th when your team is in a slump like we are the worst thing is to play in a pitcher s park like this spoke gil hodges before the series keith hernandez added that their defense takes away quite a few runs per year and it must be giving them an extra wins the pirates have made only errors all season ahead of the second place dodgers error totals tend to be around for the best defensive all time teams rube foster defeated sid fernandez friday and candelaria outshone seaver saturday in a game featuring some outstanding defense when nolan ryan and two relivers hit the mets in another win sunday the pirates could once again look forward to a victory getting them back to the mark they had been unable to several times in the past month bert blyleven met dwight gooden in the afternoon game both pitchers possessed fantastic stuff and the only runs scored through eight innings were on home runs a solo shot by rusty staub of the mets and a two run blast by ralph kiner for the pirates the mets darryl strawberry singled home a run in the top of the ninth off jesse orosco working his second inning after mookie wilson pinch ran for gary carter at second with one out and a runner on first lee mazilli was sent in to pinch hit the pirates countered with kent tekulve placing him in the fifth spot in the order and putting barry bonds in left field as the ninth place hitter tekulve induced a groundout forcing strawberry at second he slid hard into honus wagner preventing the pirates from turning their fifth double play of the afternoon tekulve allowed a hit but clemente threw mazilli out at third from near the right field line ending the inning tug mcgraw relieved randy myers who entered to pitch the eighth and got one out before bonds launched a rocket to deep center running through the stop sign at third to score an inside the park homer to win the pirates had scored an improbable straight wins and had moved to within games of first place with seven weeks to go san francisco at boswaukta august another sunday doubleheader appeared on the schedule as the giants managed to close the gap on the other teams thanks to some starting pitching that just wouldn t tire in fact reported manager john mcgraw once this rough part of the schedule is over maybe as early as this coming week we may shift to a man rotation again for a little while juan marichal continued his hot pitching friday beating lew burdette and the braves willie mays had all four r b i s on hits rick reuschel faced joe niekro saturday in a slugfest the braves park had been a homer haven but this took the cake as the giants won a seesaw affair willie mays had three homers willie mccovey eddie matthews and don baylor had two and hank aaron ernie lombardi biz mackey and mel ott had one each the braves had collected home runs going into sunday s doubleheader putting them on a pace for which would be short of the national league record they were still a tad behind the yankees pace they had allowed over though vida blue actually got the win after retiring batters in the fifth he allowed only a run in the sixth but faltered in the seventh joe mcginnity earned the save in the doubleheader the braves hoyt wilhelm failed to hold a lead in the first game but hank aaron homered off bill foster in the eighth as the braves won the giants took the second game however by a score the homer by aaron was a magical by the braves however they fell to three game below making a comeback extremely unlikely san diego at cincinnati aug randy jones faced ewell blackwell in the first of this game series and the padres felt rather good with don mattingly straining his back in the last cleveland game the trade looked even better mcgriff s batting average was even rising of course the bench was very poor and joe gordon was only adequate in the outfield but these were minor problems since the pitching was holding up jones pitched a good game friday and won mcgriff launched two home runs mel harder earned a win with the help of mark davis and ray narleski saturday was the final score tom candiotti battled satchel paige to a tie through eight innings before departing the game was scoreless for more innings until the thirteenth paige had departed after and john franco hurled a scoreless inning tom browning was working his second scoreless inning when dave winfield doubled with one out and joe gordon was pitched around thurm munson doubled both runners home and the padres gamed a win the three game sweep had pulled the giants into a tie with the reds though the reds denied it the highly emotional series with the dodgers may have taken too much out of them brookangeles at houston august another series capped off by a weekend doubleheader took place in the wide open plains of the astrodome the astros sent joe niekro to the hill in the first game opposite don drysdale normally drysdale remarked i would be challenging hitter by being ready to throw at them i can t afford to with this team though we have to get our own runners going we can t afford to let the astros beat us he then winked and said well maybe davis will get decked once the fact that glenn davis leads the team in homers with six is primarily why he would be decked but it should be understood that his current pace would give him nine for the season the hitting on this team is a little better but the power is all doubles and triples still carl furillo is the main reason no astro home runs were hit over the weekend as he threw two runners out trying for inside the park homers for those unaware of the nastness of the astros park they have a foot high gray wall all around the outfield balls must be hit into the seats to be home runs the foul poles are feet from home plate but the alleys are feet away with center field at feet it s as if some three year old threw a tantrum and told his playmates if i can t hit home runs nobody will hit home runs remarked roy campanella the dodgers stole five bases friday but the astros decided to revitalize the baltimore chopping that had failed weeks before for tonight anyway davis jim wynn and jose cruz did not have to mess with their swings according to the manager after poles and willie wells reached base via the baltimore chop drysdale decked jose cruz with a pitch he responded with a two run double but wynn playing first for davis popped up and the astros didn t score any more in that inning they did score in the fourth to erase a deficit and the astros wound up winning they threatened to do even better the next game as tommy john would be their opponent walt alston met privately with the starters at a m before the game i think i know how we can beat the baltimore chop he explained how can we do that pee wee reese wondered they re going to be beating the ball down so we ve got to be ready to throw on the run steve will start at first to dig balls out of the dirt but i want all of you to practice your barehanded picks and throws we ll go with a shallow infield almost the whole time the plan almost worked mike scott allowed only two runs through eight innings but the astros got three two of them scored when bill doran pushed a bunt into the outfield in the fourth with runners on second and third astros was the final with dave smith earning another save the dodgers scored a victory in the first game of the twin bill sunday as nolan ryan walked five three of whom scored in a dodger win fernando valenzuela lost the second game to don sutton however as the dodgers thirteen stolen bases in the series proved to not be enough we re mostly a power team remarked ron cey jackie and when he plays maury wills are our only real speed demons though a couple other plays can do it now and then we re sunk in a place like the astrodome i guess that s why they re so successful there indeed it seems that basestealing teams give them the most trouble in the dome the stros swiped bases in attempts giving them on the season standings after these weekend series a l east team w l gb new york cleveland detroit boston baltimore toronto washington a l west oaksaselphia minnesota chicago kansas city california milwaukee seattle n l east chicago philadelphia st louis pittsburgh montreal new york n l west brookangeles cincinnati san francisco boswaukta houston san diego doug fowler dxf po cwru edu me age now mommys and daddys other ever wonder if after casey relatives have to give lots of hugs love missed the rd strike in the poem support cause heaven is just a great he ran to first and made it big hug that lasts forever and ever
rec.sport.baseball	bill james player rating book dave this has never happened to me before kirsch writes correction nied was the only player identified in this book as a grade a prospect who was exposed to the draft according to bill james in the stop the presses section preceding his player evaluations he valued nied at and said that nied s value does not increase significantly as a result of his selection although he did catch a break getting away from the strongest rotation in baseball i thought bill james latest book completely and totally sucked i bought it but will not purchase anything of his ever again without thoroughly looking at it first what tripe the book is inconsistent and filled with selective analysis james claims to be looking forward and then makes some absolutely bizarre statements of value not only that but i got the impression he probably glanced at the book for about an hour before he put his name on it to say i was disappointed is a grand understatement gary huckabay kevin kerr the al feldstein of the mid s a living argument for if there s anything we love more than a huge existence of parallel sig it s someone quoting lines to add universes or new ones and consecutive posts too
rec.sport.baseball	dodgers newsletter could somebody please tell me if there is a dodgers newsletter on the net and if so how to subscribe thanks joel
rec.sport.baseball	marlins win marlins win i only caught the tail end of this one on espn does anyone have a report look at all that teal bleah david j dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it s on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real e mail me for the
rec.sport.baseball	re no joke rockies have attendance record in article apr dvorak amd com twhite mozart amd com tom white writes the highest single game attendance was game of the world series october at the la coliseum white sox over dodgers gate officially largest regular season game again in la for the first game in the city of angels opening day april home opener anyway the rockies might really nail the record the record attendance for a doubleheader is larger but since dh s are all but nonexistent nowadays why bother listing it wasn t there an new york at cleveland game in the late s jhon rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu prediction for marlins wins rockies wins
rec.sport.baseball	re tickets etc let s look at the effects of inflation on s superstars salaries i read once that the babe made one year and that was about as good as it got for him let s assume he made that in i m not sure of the figures but i know i m in the ballpark pun intended today assuming a yearly inflation rate which is an understatement if not accurate his measly salary would be worth fv x x just over assuming inflation is average of around fv x almost i didn t crunch these numbers beforehand these numbers might lead one to believe that today s players are slightly overpaid the babe appears to have made then what today s average to above average players make now perfectly accurate salary year of salary and average inflation rate would make this analysis more accurate but i don t think i m off by much chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt e internet gt e prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	re scott erickson in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes path news cis umn edu umn edu news feed peachnet edu gatech concert duke news duke edu bchm biochem duke edu from fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush newsgroups rec sport baseball subject scott erickson message id news duke edu date apr gmt sender news news duke edu organization biochemistry lines nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu usa today reports that he may be going on the dl arm pains of an unspecified nature further news would be appreciated eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu i am a marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close erickson did go on the day dl with a pulled muscle in his left side near rib cage he is on until no news as to who the twins will bring up kevin hansen mn twin family study university of minnesota khansen staff tc umn edu contact university of minnesota women s basketball theory guides experiment decides izaak m kolthoff
rec.sport.baseball	re espn tbs games in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes does anyone know where i can get a list of nationally televised games such as espn and tbs i live on the east coast and i d like to catch as many giants games as i possibly can this list is published every week in baseball weekly brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com that was not swimming that was bathing a german reporter after watching olympic superstar swimmer mark spitz get badly beaten during a comeback race
rec.sport.baseball	re finnally the phils have support in article c x xa ew news udel edu philly brahms udel edu robert c hite writes in article fjqpau wblm z r andrew cmu edu anuj gupta ag i andrew cmu edu writes everytime i have written on the net about the possibility of a successfuls season by the philadelphia phillies i have gotten ripped from everybody from pittsburgh to calcutta but if all the ignoramouses care to look at this week s baseball weekly they will see that i m not the only one who considers then as division winners the rest of the most respected baseball writers in the country do as well and these guys certainly know what they re talking about every bozo from pittsburgh to calcutta will just have to sit up and take notice this phils team in an offensive juggernaut which is going to score a lot of runs and put up a ton of hits on the scoreboard you people out there are going to be sick of seeing phillies scattered all over every offensive league leaders category in the newspaper these guys hit through spring training well before getting no hit yesterday but they had a plane to catch minutes after the game ended so they re minds weren t in it up to this point i really thought this had been written by a pro sdcn anti mediot poster blessed with a certain talent for sarcasm and biting remarks somebody like me for instance the lurid overstatements were obviously intended to humiliate the original poster now on top of the great offense they have a slightly above average pitching staff which has a lot of youth and promise if the pitchers do their part and mitch keeps blown saves to a minimum look for another pennant out in left field at the vet robert c hite p s michael jack schmidt for commissioner but then the scales were lifted from my eyes looks like robert is really being serious oh well i compare the performance of the phillies with the edition which had outstanding run producers at every position except ss yet finished at a frustrating sub level the folks didn t ever amount to anything and neither will the squad imho any other parallels with previous years teams for this year s editions in the style of braves orioles greg mockingbird franklin interracial mixing encompasses a lot lot more f ccit arizona edu than mingling between g races robohen things one wishes to see the moon flowers the face of a dear one well performed no the furnishings of a tea cottage the real thoughts of one s lover and her letter all famous places
rec.sport.baseball	with a surge in the last two weeks ladies and gentlemen boys and girls lend me your ears for but a moment the national legue eastern division champions will be the philadelphia phillies i one hundred and ten percent guarantee chamberlain hollins dykstra incaviglia jackson williams daulton greene kruk mulholland rivera thompson duncan watch us soar in
rec.sport.baseball	quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb jayson stark i trhink that s him fits perfectly in this category anyone who writes dean palmer has homers at this pace he ll have home runs should be shot if at the end of april he has and anyone writes at this pace he ll have homers they shouldbe shot too bob gaj
rec.sport.baseball	re mike francesa s predictions hmm i thought francesca s predictions always hovered at or below especially in the nfl not counting college football bowl day he s a nice analyst for explaining past tense and for mapping out what plays teams might do but for predicting the future he only looks good whne compared to russo bob gaj
rec.sport.baseball	re finnally the phils have support in article c yxmj ble news udel edu philly bach udel edu robert c hite writes most of tirade deleted i have an editor and know how to use it okay we ve been conservative and added about wins so far now we re adding about more wins thanks to the expansion teams okay thats wins lesse dipshit math genuious hmmm i think thats good enough to win the worse division in baseball next time before you say something foolish get a clue first either this is an example of great sarcasm or i m really really worried dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat a dead horse but it s been a couple o weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david m tate writes mss netcom com mark singer said i meant that one should not let the exception make the rule it s not an exception good players come up young most players who come up young will be good this has always been the rule are most players who come up young always good when they re young or later worse it s not a shift this is the way it has always been several detailed studies of this have been done and they ve all shown that players aren t coming up any younger or older than in the past and they aren t playing any more or less in the minors than they used to the only thing that shifts is our memories of the good old days damn i was afraid you would say that but all after the fact which makes it not applicable to the current discussion which is about how you decide whether to play the rookie who hasn t established himself in the majors over the mediocre veteran the padres played santiago that year because they clearly had nobody else worth playing well perhaps if the braves had no one else worth playing this year it would be lopez in there but they do have others worth playing at least in their opinion and i happen to agree both of these young men were highly touted defensive catchers expected to be among the best ever in baseball not by rec sport baseball consensus that may sound like an incredibly arrogant comment but i ve found that the sdcn consensus when one exists is right far more often than the media consensus or the opinions of baseball people affiliated with mlb i can believe that i m a newbie here so i ll take your word but alomar is a fine defensive catcher which was my statement above that is a solid reason for bringing him up at a tender age as long as they feel he can also hit a bit lopez does not have such a consensus about his defensive prowess and imho that is enough to give him that dreaded seasoning i don t know who knows i suppose the same people or similar who know he will be better than some other catcher these are of course just differing opinions i read that his arm is not that strong i suppose somewhere there is some measurement of sb ratios and that he is still learning to call a game that latter skill may be difficult to project on someone without an intimate knowledge of his performance but it is a tangible skill i disagree in that i don t think it is a tangible skill any more than leadership is i don t deny that it is a real skill and that some catchers may be much better than others at it but i really don t see any way that we could ever know who they are nichols s law of catcher defense is eerily accurate far too often for me to take defensive assessments of catchers very seriously sorry new don t know nichols law don t believe in catchers era but i am interested in pitchers eras with different catchers any info on that absolutely the evidence is piling up year after year the only other alternative is that the braves really don t know that their young players are on average better than their current starters i m not ruling out that kind of gross incompetence but i think the salary schedule explanation is more charitable in other words we know more than they do so the only logic behind a different decision than we would make must be financial i presume we feel this way about other franchises than atlanta no consider we know that the braves are about the strongest team in baseball right now even with olson and lemke and nixon and bream in the lineup they have as good a chance of repeating as champs this year as any team ever has it actually makes some sense to say rather than making our team marginally better this year by bringing up the young studs and dumping the elderly let s go ahead and compete this year with what we have and then bring up the studs only as we have to so that we ll still have them under reserve three years from now and beyond when the current team will be collecting pensions is it fair to the young players no does it make organizational sense i think it does well if it does make organizational sense one can hardly fault them for their decisions i mean please don t tell me how to run my business especially when i m being successful c i could make it or wins if you let me bring up lopez s listen bobby i d like to but the way i see it if he hits the big club this year we ll be paying mega arbitration bucks down the road in a couple of years and there s no way i want to do that and continues with we can win without him and then keep winning next year with him how s that i m sure you could be right you could also be smoking some illegal substance hey that s a joke don t get offended please hey i d love to be wrong about this if you think it s unlikely i d love to know why don t cite anybody s innate ethical rectitude though unless you know them personally well i can t cite anyone s ethical rectitude because i don t know what it means but again if it makes organizational sense then so be it baseball is a business and if there is a solid business reason for keeping lopez on the farm then that s what the braves should do i happen to believe that it s a baseball decision while you from your armchair may disagee i don t i think there is a lot of evidence to suggest the decision they made i predicted it among large guffaws from several at the start of spring training i think it is a very normal decision to have made it is certainly more reversible than to have started lopez in the bigs and have released one of their catchers sure it may be conservative it may also be logical i don t know what ethics have to do with it seems like pretty good common sense to me the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re nl east champion phillies robert c hite writes here are the projected lineups benches rotation and bullpen for the national league east champion philadelphia phillies i think the only phillies in effect here are philly blunts of course if this all becomes true i ll be the first to smoke one myself david j dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it s on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real e mail me for the
rec.sport.baseball	re mike francesa s predictions in article apr porthos cc bellcore com dick herahera cc bellcore com vaughn richard writes in article apr ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu writes in article apr porthos cc bellcore com dick herahera cc bellcore com vaughn richard writes mike francesa mentioned his baseball picks in passing on the radio yesterday being that this is francesa talkin the opinions are well worth consideration indeed after all he was the wizard foresaw the year of the big east in the ncaa tournament unfortunatly none of those teams made it into the sweet sixteen much less new orleans neither did he overall mike francesa has an outstanding prediction record overall how do you figure ignore him at your own peril so far my radio hasn t exploded from not being tuned to roger
rec.sport.baseball	a move we won t see was why the redflops can but won t win stwombly cs ulowell edu steve twombly writes mo vaughn can hit in the spring b mo vaughn can only hit during the season excellent point i hope to god that ted simmons doesn t get the weird idea of trading for the guy and if he does he had better not include jeff king in the deal oh god what if he traded zane smith and jeff king for vaughn and greg blosser it would be worse than the nichols curse hmm i guess that doesn t sound sincere enough oh well at least i tried jking
rec.sport.baseball	re my belated predictions nl mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes javier lopez is a better catcher than greg olson but has there ever in the history of baseball been a year old or younger rookie catcher who compared favorably among all league catchers in terms of defense and brought a bat wasn t it sandy alomar who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year not wasn t it benito santiago who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year not hrm sandy alomar year old rookie games threw out a few baserunners benito santiago year old rookie games he threw out a few baserunners too ivan rodriguez year old rookies games didn t exactly suck behind the plate i can continue this thread with the others mentioned but you get the point you and others seem to be so quick to dismiss the seasoned veterans in favor of the hot young rookies perhaps just perhaps the management team of the pennant winning braves knows something more than you do and perhaps what they know is that very very few and year old rookies come up to the majors and make an impact true which only makes it more important to realize when you have one of the few lopez season last year adjusted to major league equivalencies was hrs how bad does he have to be behind the plate for that to not be better than olson s mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com i would not admire hitting against ryne duren because if he ever hit you in the head you might be in the past tense casey stengel
rec.sport.baseball	re espn and expansion in article c u c ucdavis edu itlm dale ucdavis edu donnie trump writes i was watching peter gammons on espn last night and he s got me a little confused while talking about expansion he started mentioning people who might benefit from the fringe players they ll be facing mcgriff hitting home runs sheffield getting rbi s and glavine winning games this was of course all in reference to what happened the other times that baseball has expanded early s late s late s what really confused me though was the mention of al players who would do well next year specifically roger clemens winning games and the likes of mcgwire and gonzalez hitting home runs my question is how in the hell will the rockies marlins help the al the last time i looked there wasn t a lot of talent jumping leagues did i miss something dennis cleary dfcleary ucdavis edu i wondered the same thing when he first mentioned it i thought he was just making a mistake but then he said it over and over and then in the examples from other years he gave stats for players from both leagues even when only one league expanded so since stats never lie i guess there is an effect on both leagues because the expansion draft takes talent from both leagues equally making every team in both leagues dilute their major league talent by calling up players that normally they would not have had there not been expansion make sense
rec.sport.baseball	rockies opening day cast here is the colorado rockies openning day cast pitchers scott aldred l mlb totals games era saves andy ashby r games era saves willie blair r games era saves butch henry l games era saves darren holmes r games era saves david neid r games era saves jeff parrett r games era saves steve reed r games era saves bruce ruffin l games era saves bryn smith r games era saves gary wayne l games era saves the rest joe girardi c games hr rbi sb danny sheaffer c games hr rbi sb freddie benavides ss games hr rbi sb vinny castilla ss games hr rbi sb andres galarraga b games hr rbi sb charlie hayes b games hr rbi sb jim tatum b games hr rbi sb eric young b games hr rbi sb dante bichette of games hr rbi sb daryl boston of games hr rbi sb jerald clark of games hr rbi sb alex cole of games hr rbi sb gerald young of games hr rbi sb dale murphy of seasons hr rbi
rec.sport.baseball	rockies and rangers fans please help me greetings baseballers i have a choice of two more or less identical conferences to attend one in denver and one in dallas both may could some kind rockies or rangers they do play in the dallas area right fans please let me know if there are home dates for that week i d love to catch a game thanks shawn
rec.sport.baseball	opening day of the o s just lost to the rangers a few minutes ago i was not too happy about the pitching of rick sutcliffe runs in innings in the this puts me in remembering the o s season after we didn t do much over winter and we wound up in th now i know that mussina mcdonald and rhodes are better pitching prospects than ballard and milacki but are any other oriole fans scared out there admiral steve c liu p s other scores as of now cincy over montreal i think florida is leading la in the th braves vs cubs in the th futility of cubs batting haunting them yanks beat the tribe i believe admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu commander in chief of the security division of the pi club earth chapter president of the earth chapter of the pi club founded april world champions baltimore orioles why not series in the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society the only problem is that the abbreviation is clitoris from the polymorph episode of red dwarf the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings my god man drilling holes through his head is not the answer dr mccoy you know susanna hoffs has a really nice ass comment by m flanagan the pi club creating the largest signatures for the past nine months
rec.sport.baseball	re wohlers to minors in article hydra gatech edu ccastmm prism gatech edu mike marler writes in apr rigel econ uga edu shannonr moe coe uga edu shannon reeves cntr for ed tech writes at times it seems as if no others in the bullpen are used by cox for middle relief marvin only pitched innings this spring he is supposed to be over his surgery and i am wondering if cox is still trying to decide who to use as middle relief and thinks that marvin might be his better choice early in the season i would immediately give mcmchael many chances to pitch after spring and then use bedrock and freeman after that i am wondering how he intends to use howell whatever happened to senior smoke do you mean juan berenguer he was traded for mark davis in the middle of last season exchanged one stiff for another as berenguer hadn t come back from his injury in i think he s retired now anyhow as middle relief marvin ain t that bad he at least can pitch a couple of innings or do mop up work i don t know much about mcmichael was he the mexican league guy but everybody else in the pen is a inning man except maybe mercker eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu i am a marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close
rec.sport.baseball	re minnesota pitching date mon apr from karim edvard ahmed ka k andrew cmu edu since i haven t been able to keep up with baseball much this season i have a few questions about my favorite team the minnesota twins how good does their rotation look the last i heard the order is tapani erikson mahomes banks and some guy i ve never heard of sounds pretty pathetic to me well maybe it will be banks is a year old prospect who hasn t matured as quickly as they would have liked mahomes is a year old who is very highly touted tapani and erickson are also young and have looked very good this spring the last spot was between jim deshaies formerly of houston and s d and mike trombley deshaies hasn t looked very good this spring so i believe that the spot has gone to trombley although they hadn t wanted starters this unproven i personally believe very highly in mahomes and trombley who is playing short and third well scott leius is the shortstop he played mostly b last year but was a ss in the minors and moved back after gagne left to k c b is split maybe between pagliarulo who has had a great spring and terry jorgenson a good looking kid who has languished in portland for years i m not sure how the time will be divided but they seem to be happy with what they have here i like jorgenson but i fear they might give too much time to pags how s winfield doing sorry can t help you here dennis
rec.sport.baseball	re my belated predictions nl well as long as folks are sharing their esteemed wisdom li l karnak sez al west al east nl west nl east chicago toronto atlanta st louis texas new york cincinnati montreal minnesota baltimore houston new york oakland boston los angeles philadelphia seattle detroit san diego pittsburgh kansas city milwaukee san fran chicago california cleveland colorado florida details to follow later pick it apart as you like also if anyone is still taking entries for prediction pools contests could you snag mine and add it to the list thanks i m just glad it s opening day makes up a little bit for the gloom doom weather patterns here lundy dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat a dead horse but it s been a couple o weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	re with a surge in the last two weeks watch us soar in shouldn t that be watch us stoned in or maybe watch us suck in or even watch us sore in matt montgomery no really i like the phillies
rec.sport.baseball	where can i find baseball statistics i am interested in uncovering statistics on boston red sox players from march present i want to look at changes in batting average hits multi hit games runs stolen bases and on base during every game where can i find this information do any sports magazines log this info or do i have to go directly to the ball club thanks for the info kip
rec.sport.baseball	grateful dead being a baseball fan and a fan of the above mentioned band i was wondering if anyone could clue me in on whether the dead or members of sang the national anthem at todays giant opener i would imagine that it is a bit too early for anyone to know but an answer would be greatly appreciated curious robert robert margesson umaine hockey park st c black bears orono me ncaa champs
rec.sport.baseball	g williams sent down yanks win al east well it really isn t this cut and dry but as a jay fan the thing i feared worst has happened the yanks sent down williams g and are going to start williams b in cf i also believe they kept wickman and millitello in their rotation which is much nicer than that kaminiecki and mike witt combo i thought they d throw out their to the slaughterhouse because of their experience granted witt might be good but i think that they used rationale to keep the youngsters up and not given the job to witt because he was a good pitcher and has experience the yanks are showing that they are taking positive strides forwards the jays with the loss of dave stewart are looking at gigantic holes in their pitching staff the orioles should also be there in the end gord niguma to salvage the season let jj olerud win mvp
rec.sport.baseball	re bo was a good player you shorts plus idiots in article apr otago ac nz guilford otago ac nz writes in article apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes in article apr otago ac nz guilford otago ac nz writes bo jackson kcr kcr kcr cws maj maj this is what jackson looked like in with everything converted to a neutral park on the basis of run production his equivalent average started at in was up to in and in so let us say he had established in his last two seasons a level of play that is good very good in fact but it probably doesn t make the top ten in the league the th best eqa in the al in was dave winfield s thomas was first at first in the nl was bonds an incroyable tenth was bip roberts but is better than any season in the past five years by joe carter it is about what mattingly had in what felix jose had the last two years just ahead of time raines five year average better than ryan klesko s mles he got more attention from the media than was warranted from his baseball playing though his hype was a lot better than his hitting that is the basis for the net comments about him being overrated the media would have you beleive he was a great hitter i think he was a good maybe very good hitter he was imo something like the th best hitter in the majors clay d
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article mssc dfw u netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes at age alomar had a brilliant rookie year true he was limited by injuries in his sophomore season but his numbers both that yaer and the year following were quite mediocre this season the same bill james projects a ba of ops of the same bill james why do you say that it sounds like you re suggesting bill james had something to do with overhyping the kid to death au contraire he was fairly critical of him after his roy campaign noting that he wasn t all world as a catcher or a hitter he called him basically average when everyone else in the media was predicting the next johnny bench or roy campanella both of these young men were highly touted defensive catchers expected to be among the best ever in baseball the reports i read indicate that lopez is very ordinary defensively which reports are those the dodgers options are parrish and hernandez and now only carlos piazza is as long as he continues with his very hot bat they will keep him in the lineup because they need the offensive production when he cools off look for the much better defensive catcher hernandez only to play more i like hernandez a lot but if piazza can catch the ball you ve gotta play him imho he s a much better hitter although hernandez isn t a bad hitter right now it sounds like piazza will catch most of the time and hernandez will be candiotti s caddy since he can catch the knuckler as long as they play up to their abilities the dodgers could have a very good catching tandem the braves options are berryhill and olson i agree that olson is nothing special but i do think berryhill is better than many people on rsb believe but both the braves catchers are very good defensively calling a game blocking the plate throwing and although they are somewhat weak offenivsively they play on a team that is not so much in need of another big bat i think both are overrated defensively see nichols law of catcher defense but that s something that s difficult to prove or disprove from your viewpoint or mine about the only tangible thing we can look at is opponent s sb and that s clouded by how well your pitchers hold runners catchers era is a possibility but it s subject to way too many biases as for them playing on a team that is not so much in need of another big bat i disagree here too about the only chink in the braves armor is that they re weak offensively at several positions cf c b ss if belliard plays b unless bream and hunter form another super platoon and very weak defensively if blauser plays i d like to see the braves give at least one of mel nieves javy lopez or chipper jones a shot but much like the talent rich jays of recent years they ll be conservative and stick with what they have i m not saying that s wrong just conservative dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat a dead horse but it s been a couple o weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes jayson stark i think that s him fits perfectly in this category could be there is a jayson stark that writes weekly for some press syndicate and also for baseball america anyone who writes dean palmer has homers at this pace he ll have home runs should be shot if at the end of april he has and anyone writes at this pace he ll have homers they shouldbe shot too stark has done this sort of thing but he has never been serious about it he usually states that this sort of projection is useless at the top of such columns i think he did it one season and some manager was projected to be thrown out of games and some hitter could expect to be plunked times stark does some really funny stuff his weekly baseball reviews are good collections of strange things that happened during the previous week he also regularly prints kinerisms lance cr o h o smith moments after being named manager for the lsmith cs umn edu oakland a s mr peanut was crushed by a special limited edition red headed loner wielding an aluminum bat r s bb signature murder at the mausoleum
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward theodorus redsox fannus fischer writes sorry this doesn t fly the good players have always been ready for the majors early how many hofers were not contributing major leaguers by the time they were that brings up an interesting point anyone else catch espn s piece about prospects and the relationship between age career length mvps and hall of fame members it was part of their preseason special basically they looked at players that had amassed plate appearances or abs by the time they were and noticed some interesting things for starters they found out such players comprised the majority of mvps in the history of the game they also found out such players represented the majority of the players in the hall of fame the kicker though was that they actually did some number crunching and found that such players careers lasted much longer than the careers of players not in that group they also found that these players produced at both a greater level of performance and produced over twice the raw totals hrs etc of the other players the first group outhit the second something like to in raw ba and blew away the second group in such categories as hrs bs rbis etc it was the most impressive thing i ve seen on espn in recent memory i guess ray knight makes his rebuttal tonight dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat a dead horse but it s been a couple o weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	red sox win st bosox royals wp clemens lp appier key hit mike greenwell s out tripple with bases loaded
rec.sport.baseball	re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb bob gajarsky hobokenite writes jayson stark i trhink that s him fits perfectly in this category anyone who writes dean palmer has homers at this pace he ll have home runs should be shot bob i think that stark does this sort of thing as a joke not as a serious prediction i don t really see why we should shoot him for that the guys who ought to be shot are the ones who keep claiming how great the royals chances are in the al west since all evidence indicates that they aren t joking and actually believe it bob davis rbd thor ece uc edu
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article c wo kfy news cis umn edu kirsch staff tc umn edu dave almost cursed the jays kirsch writes that brings up an interesting point anyone else catch espn s piece about prospects and the relationship between age career length mvps and hall of fame members it was part of their preseason special wow espn can repeat eleven year old bill james research literally check the abstract it was the most impressive thing i ve seen on espn in recent memory perhaps in they ll be as reliable as an average sdcn i guess ray knight makes his rebuttal tonight oops maybe not ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the u of c law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal
rec.sport.baseball	re finnally the phils have support in article c yxmj ble news udel edu philly bach udel edu robert c hite writes in article apr ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu writes everytime i have written on the net about the possibility of a successfuls season by the philadelphia phillies i have gotten ripped from everybody from pittsburgh to calcutta but if all the ignoramouses care to look at this week s baseball weekly they will see that i m not the only one who considers then as division winners the rest of the most respected baseball writers in the country do as well and what was the reasoning of this genius writer that even though their pitching is at best sound they will win on the strength of their offense lesse offense offense thompson incaviglia offense wins division winners at least wins so wins wins thompson incaviglia therefore wins thompson incaviglia what did you learn in school today if you take a math course and your teacher turns out to be rob rains run don t walk to drop add p tierney you obviously don t know what the hell you re talking about no thompson and incaviglia don t equal wins but i ll take the two of them over stan javier and ruben amaro hr ab hr ab i d say this improvement should equate to or wins at least then i ll take lenny dykstra who played games last year and project his numbers hits b s hr rbi sb over games thus hits b s hr rbi sb okay now we ll put these numbers in the leadoff hole and thus i have to bump kruk hollins daulton rbi numbers up just a tad now lesse they knocked in and respectively don t you think it s fair to add about or rbi to each they managed to knock in a pretty nice amount of runs with a leadoff hitter okay bozo do you think it s fair to add maybe or more wins now oh and how can i forget wes chamberlain ab s hr rbi even with a month and in aaa and a horrible first half well project that over a full season to get hr and rbi or so is that worth a win or two finally take the worse pitching staff in the nl last year add the worse injury decimation of okay now we add danny jackson some health and a full season for schilling is that worth at least wins okay we ve been conservative and added about wins so far now we re adding about more wins thanks to the expansion teams okay thats wins lesse dipshit math genuious hmmm i think thats good enough to win the worse division in baseball next time before you say something foolish get a clue first actually i was simply relaying the reasoning of this so called genius bw writer i agree the reasoning was foolish next time before you say something foolish be aware what you are responding to btw wins very funny p tierney
rec.sport.baseball	new uniforms usually one or two teams changes their logo or a minor uniform change per season but the past few seasons have been incredible any thoughts on the new old reds uniforms i remember seeing a pete rose rookie card and unless i miss my guess he was wearing the exact same duds the mets how about doc s performance today have reinserted the mets patch on the shoulder and changed the mets insgnia on the front of the jersey to my knowledge it is the first time that has been changed since and it reminds me a little of the dodger logo many teams have opted for a return to a previous style of uniform or at least uniforms that look more traditional phillies reds expos white sox padres etc and the once bright colors have been altered to gray the trend has also seen the newer baseball fields resembling the parks of the early years as opposed to the cookie cutter saucer stadiums construcrted throughout the sixties with salaries now reaching unbelievable highs no one in the comissioner s office and inter league play on the horizon it s nice to see that baseball at least looks like it was meant to be
rec.sport.baseball	re players overpaid ted frank s list of underpaid players was this p juan guzman p mussina p castillo p eldred p rhodes p militello rp rojas rp beck rp melendez rp hernandez rp nied c rodriguez c piazza b thomas b bagwell b knoblauch b barberie b gomez b palmer ss listach ss pena lf gonzalez cf lankford rf r sanders of plantier what do all of these players have in common they do not qualify for arbitration they were never free agents it s called the reserve clause look it up and a year from now we will whine about how several of these guys are way overpaid and getting outrageous raises in arb humbug king sparky banaian no taxes no new taxes kbanaian pitzer claremont edu no old taxes we are taxed dept of economics pitzer college enough rep alan keyes latest gdp forecast please run alan
rec.sport.baseball	vegas odds does anyone have a list of vegas odds for teams making the world series i d appreciate a mailing thanks rickc corp sgi com
rec.sport.baseball	rec sport baseball fantasy april i am participating in an nl league that uses standard rotisserie rules except that the following catagories are used for position players lowest batting average strike outs caught stealing errors for pitchers losses blown saves higest era taters allowed this is the fifth year that i ve participated in this blowtisserie league last year i won the pennant due primarily to the fact that i had terrible pitching i would like to lower my batting average which is rather high because i do have jose offerman who made up for this by helping me lock first place in errors anyway someone offered andres gallaraga for bud black i can afford to give up bud black because i still have kyle abbott however i am afraid of andres actually doing well this season should i make the trade or not your comments will be appreciated warren usui i m one with the universe on a scale from to
rec.sport.baseball	jim lefebvre is an idiot i just wanted to let everyone know that i have lost what little respect i have for jim lefebvre after seeing today s cubs game first of all how could he start maldonado over may after the way may played at the end of last year and the way he tore up the cactus league how could you let him sit the bench not to mention that a right hander maddux started i really blew my top when lefebvre pinch hit for rick wilkins with tommy shields how can you do that just because of the lefty righty thing too much is made of that wilkins is twice the hitter that shields is then the next batter was jose vizcaino one of the weakest hitters i have ever seen and who had looked terrible at bat all day and lefebre let him hit while may still sat the bench i think even arnie harris was stunned by this because he showed may sitting in the dugout while vizcaino was batting face it lefebvre has got to be the worst manager in baseball a dishard cub fan
rec.sport.baseball	re best second baseman thf ellis uchicago edu ted frank writes in article mar sarah albany edu js albnyvms bitnet writes personally i think that alomar is all hype he is producing incredibly now but in the long run he will never put up the numbers that sandberg has for this moment alomar may be the best but overall sandberg wins out by a long shot when sandberg was alomar s age he was putting up seasons with no power alomar s oba is points higher than sandberg s career high alomar s career high in doubles and triples is higher than sandberg s sandberg is still better than alomar but only because alomar hasn t reached his full potential yet alomar s got a year headstart on sandberg he has hits sandberg didn t have hits until he was and is likely to put up better career numbers than sandberg in everything except home runs he ll pass sandberg in stolen bases sometime in sandberg is not particulary known for his stolen bases what competition did alomar have sandberg came in a year after ripken and the same year as boggs gwynn and the other magicians so less attention was given to sandberg alomar is the only one in his class to be worth a mediocre besides the numbers don t count national league pitchers are much better pitchers larry on someone elses account mark horan horan cse unl edu ianr unlvm
rec.sport.baseball	re jim lefebvre is an idiot bjgood leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i just wanted to let everyone know that i have lost what little respect i have for jim lefebvre after seeing today s cubs game first of all how could he etc vizcaino was batting face it lefebvre has got to be the worst manager in baseball a dishard cub fan hey he s the only manager so far to lead the seattle mariners to a winning season out of what fifteen give him some credit for that dave the machman machman u washington edu david c carroll c oo big science hallelujah
rec.sport.baseball	re giants gm quinn is a genius in article c nh et odin corp sgi com luigi sgi com randy palermo writes will clark matt williams robbie thompson rod beck all came up through the giants system geez everyone comes up with clark williams thompson these guys were all up in that s ancient history so in the last years noone right beck doesn t count i said solid years btw manwaring lead the ml last season in throwing out baserunners he is an excellent defensive catcher i agree that his offensive skills are limited but he does seem to be improving on them let s see what he does w o the help of a pitchout every other pitch as i remember even bob brenly had a good throwout percentage under roger craig who loved to sacrifice the count for runners being thrown out of course he suffered from ball strike homers a lot too i am not a big fan of manwaring dave
rec.sport.baseball	re harry and candy but i like the way he butchers andres galarraga s name y all lighten up on harry skip ll be like that in a couple of years it comes out like gahlah rrrraggggah and don t forget his frequent references to the great sf giant star bobby bonds harry s a great personality he s the reason i like cubs broadcasts it s certainly not the quality of the team chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt e internet gt e prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	a l east is best in baseball is there any doubt that this is true after a few down years the a l east is back to where it was in the early eighties with the emergence of the o s and the yanks it is far and away the best while the n l west has the best team in baseball and the reds aren t bad either they have nothing else the giants astros and padres all have talent they do not have the all arounf teams that are found in the a l east and the dodgers just plain suck as for the rockies who knows the a l east has the defending champs and although they lost a lot to free agency toronto is still one of the best in baseball the orioles have the preseason favorite to win the cy young in mike mussina and you can never forget about ripken the signings of harold baines and harold reynolds don t hurt to much either although i always liked bill ripken while they let a lot go this summer randy milligan joe orsulak bill ripken bob milacki sam horn storm davis and craig lefferts they kept the heart of their team intact my predicted finish baltimore could be a biased opinion ny yankees toronto milwaukee detroit boston cleveland would have been higher if not for the accident go o s
rec.sport.baseball	re my belated predictions nl briefly since i m off to sleep mle s work pretty well for aa nd aaa players players who are and younger will tend to have explosions in their numbers whether mmle s or not in the next years players who are and older at those levels generally have inflated mle s they re about as reliable as having major league stats for a player bob gaj
rec.sport.baseball	re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb ok sorry about that i didn t realise he was being sarcastic about those sort of things but i ll tell you mike lupica daily news usually says some pretty funny things in his shooting from the lip columns bob gaj
rec.sport.baseball	phils are still looking immaculate ladies and gentleman step one was taken on the phils triumphant trip this year tonight yes that was english mulholland s era after tonight s game nice try drabek ninja jew
rec.sport.baseball	quick easy question here s an easy question for someone who knows nothing about baseball what city do the california angels play out of richard j rauser you have no idea what you re doing rauser sfu ca oh don t worry about that we re professional wni outlaws we do this for a living remember no matter where you go there you are dr banzai
rec.sport.baseball	re finnally the phils have support the phillies were picked to be in first someone replied that the people who picked them were the same people who picked the mets last year my reply yeah that may be true but this is the phillies fritz
rec.sport.baseball	re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes ok sorry about that i didn t realise he was being sarcastic about those sort of things but i ll tell you mike lupica daily news usually says some pretty funny things in his shooting from the lip columns bob gaj y know if current trends continue the florida marlins will be the first expansion team to go and outscore their opponents by runs ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the u of c law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal
rec.sport.baseball	re quick easy question rauser fraser sfu ca richard john rauser writes here s an easy question for someone who knows nothing about baseball what city do the california angels play out of anaheim richard j rauser you have no idea what you re doing rauser sfu ca oh don t worry about that we re professional wni outlaws we do this for a living remember no matter where you go there you are dr banzai
rec.sport.baseball	trivia question ok all you trivia buffs i have a good one for you prior to the foul bunt rule what is the record for the most foul balls by batter during one at bat total pitches who was the batter who was the pitcher same as except after the foul bunt rule associated data would be nice too such as date location teams etc bill wrl pmafire inel gov
rec.sport.baseball	re best second baseman in article pqvusinnmjm crcnis unl edu horan cse unl edu mark horan writes sandberg is not particulary known for his stolen bases what competition did alomar have sandberg came in a year after ripken and the same year as boggs gwynn and the other magicians so less attention was given to sandberg alomar is the only one in his class to be worth a mediocre besides the numbers don t count national league pitchers are much better pitchers you re right thomas gonzalez sheffield and griffey don t even begin to compare with ripken boggs and gwynn so no wonder alomar gets so much attention sandberg got no attention his rookie year because his rookie year was terrible so was his sophomore year national league pitchers are much better pitchers that certainly explains sheffield s hm are you confusing have era s that are lower because they don t face dh s with much better ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the u of c law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal
rec.sport.baseball	re espn and expansion in article c u c ucdavis edu itlm dale ucdavis edu donnie trump writes i was watching peter gammons on espn last night and he s got me a little confused while talking about expansion he started mentioning people who might benefit from the fringe players they ll be facing mcgriff hitting home runs sheffield getting rbi s and glavine winning games this was of course all in reference to what happened the other times that baseball has expanded early s late s late s what really confused me though was the mention of al players who would do well next year specifically roger clemens winning games and the likes of mcgwire and gonzalez hitting home runs my question is how in the hell will the rockies marlins help the al the last time i looked there wasn t a lot of talent jumping leagues did i miss something only if you persist in believing that peter gammons is more knowledgable about baseball than the average mailbox okay i m overstating still the man actually had the gall to say that one out of every six pitchers in the nl this year did not pitch in the majors last year huh imo this expansion will not see the explosive jump in offense that the other expansion drafts had since the talent was diluted over both leagues in gammons defense because the talent drain came from the al as well some increase will be seen he also gets credit for mentioning that the jump in offense was due also to the rules changes after the season he s still full of it kurt bose as in daisy not rose kbos carina unm edu if you take out all the f ks this is an page book wally backman leafing though a copy of mets teammate lenny dykstra s autobiography nails
rec.sport.baseball	re bo was a good player you shorts plus idiots in article c m d dv murdoch acc virginia edu drw l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes bo jackson kcr kcr kcr cws maj maj this is what jackson looked like in with everything converted to a neutral park on the basis of run production his equivalent average started at in was up to in and in so let us say he had established in his last two seasons a level of play i m not quite sure how these numbers are generated it appears that in a neutral park bo s hr and slugging tend to drop he actually loses two home runs or do they what is equivalent average one thing when looking at bo s stats is that you can see that kc took away some homers normally you expect some would be homers to go for doubles or triples in big parks or to be caught and for that matter you expect lots of doubles and triples anyway but bo despite his speed hit very few doubles and not that many triples so i would expect his value to have risen quite considerably in a neutral park that is good very good in fact but it probably doesn t make the top ten in the league the th best eqa in the al in was dave winfield s thomas was first at first in the nl was bonds an incroyable tenth was bip roberts but is better than any season in the past five years by joe carter it is about what mattingly had in what felix jose had the last two years just ahead of time raines five year average better than ryan klesko s mles felix jose has been a player in a fairly neutral park i would offhand guess the bo at around a player maybe not even close he got more attention from the media than was warranted from his baseball playing though his hype was a lot better than his hitting that is the basis for the net comments about him being overrated the media would have you beleive he was a great hitter i think he was a good maybe very good hitter he was imo something like the th best hitter in the majors i d put him about there too note i hadn t realized the media had hyped him so much i thought he was always viewed by them as a better football player and only so so at baseball he did only have one hr rbi season and kc wasn t winning note i maybe have harped on this a bit in the past but there is a mistake being made by the sdcn s as they are known on this group with respect to players like bo and deion and lofton and perhaps others we find that if you look at a large group of players their past major and minor league numbers will predict their future numbers fairly well their are some caveats the younger they are the less good the prediction the lower the minor league the less good i imagine the more recent the player has left college ball etc now of course this prediction involves quite a bit of error sometimes a player with poor mle s dave justice the ventura becomes a star some hitters develop shane mack brian downing some don t oddibe mcdowell mickey brantley this error involves real things there are real reasons why oddibe didn t hit and shane did it may who knows involve parks and batting coaches and wheaties and injuries and lifting and so on but still you have this big pool of players and things work pretty well one of the reasons for these predictions accuracy is the common background of the players one thing we know about professional baseball players is that all of them or almost all have spent a good deal of time playing ball their backgrounds are similar what hasn t been established is what happens when you encounter a player with a different background is there some reason to believe that a bo or a deion or a lofton or a tony gwynn or an ainge or so on has such a different background that the standard model and standard assumptions fit this person slowly it hasn t been established that you can use mle s with two sport players it hasn t been established that you can t but then statistics is after all an art i personally think otherwise lucid individuals continually make completely nonsensical statements about bo and deion and lofton look at those good but not great minor league numbers they say well what happens if those numbers simply don t mean what they usually mean it might mean that ken lofton suddenly has a better year in houston than tuscon it might mean that deion suddenly has a better half year in atlanta than greenville then again it might not ken and deion might go right back in the tank this year live up to those poor mle s but you guys don t know what s worse you don t know that you don t and you don t know that there are other players you won t know about injuries and lifting and wheaties again you seem to think that the model is perfect and eternal it s not it s got some error oh well bill guilford still thinks hairy butt is truly ugly might be right
rec.sport.baseball	re my belated predictions nl in article mssc zyo jsc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes i ve said the braves would improve by injury as well here s how javier lopez is a better catcher than greg olson ryan klasko is a better firstbaseman than bream chipper jones is a better shortstop than anyone the braves put out there mel nieves is better than nixon sanders that s how it forces them to play the young guys bob gaj i continue to be amazed at these comments while lopez might some day be a better catcher than olson i find it totally amazing for you to suggest that this year old with three seasons of professional baseball is now better than olson a five year mlb veteran who is noted for his ability to call a game and who has a better than average arm oh perhaps you are talking about hitting well sure lopez might hit better perhaps he probably will but has there ever in the history of baseball been a year old or younger rookie catcher who compared favorably among all league catchers in terms of defense and brought a bat wasn t it yes ivan rodriguez last year batted and threw out of the baserunners not too shabby for a rookie from aa years old last year sandy alomar who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year not wasn t it benito santiago who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year not i can continue this thread with the others mentioned but you get the point you and others seem to be so quick to dismiss the seasoned veterans in favor of the hot young rookies perhaps just perhaps the management team of the pennant winning braves knows something more than you do and perhaps what they know is that very very few and year old rookies come up to the majors and make an impact the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com roy f cabaniss wait till tommy meets the lord and western kentucky university finds out that he s wearing pinstripes all opinions contained herein gaylord perry talking about lasorda are all mine own and that s the sin baseball what a way to spend a day
rec.sport.baseball	re jim lefebvre is an idiot i totally agree with each point you made jose viscaino looked like a single a hitter up there who swings on count with maddux pitching and your teams down by a run and you haven t touched the ball all day i also think too much is made of that lefty righty thing watching the cubs games i get the feeling steve stone knows a lot more about what the cubs should be doing than lefebre does harry said it best when he stated after another terrible vizcaino at bat we can t wait til sandberg returns
rec.sport.baseball	re new uniforms in apr virginia edu tek q virginia edu todd karlin writes usually one or two teams changes their logo or a minor uniform change per season but the past few seasons have been incredible any thoughts on the new old reds uniforms i remember seeing a pete rose rookie card and unless i miss my guess he was wearing the exact same duds the mets how about doc s performance today have reinserted the mets patch on the shoulder and changed the mets insgnia on the front of the jersey to my knowledge it is the first time that has been changed since and it reminds me a little of the dodger logo as far as i know toronto pittsburgh and new york nl change their uniforms every year every other year e g new york it will say mets in cursive new york in cursive or new york in all caps minor changes but they do change them often last year i think they had new york in all caps did toronto have blue jays or toronto last year what about pittsburgh many teams have opted for a return to a previous style of uniform or at least uniforms that look more traditional phillies reds expos white sox padres etc and the once bright colors have been altered to gray the trend has also seen the newer baseball fields resembling the parks of the early years as opposed to the cookie cutter saucer stadiums construcrted throughout the sixties i hate the gray they should opt for more color like the white sox i hate white team versus gray team spring training uniforms look much better with salaries now reaching unbelievable highs no one in the comissioner s office and inter league play on the horizon it s nice to see that baseball at least looks like it was meant to be
rec.sport.baseball	re jim lefebvre is an idiot in c uc bl news cso uiuc edu ada uxa cso uiuc edu driftwood writes i totally agree with each point you made jose viscaino looked like a single a hitter up there who swings on count with maddux pitching and your teams down by a run and you haven t touched the ball all day oh this is an easy trivia question the answer is any cub not named sandberg or grace i also think too much is made of that lefty righty thing watching the cubs games i get the feeling steve stone knows a lot more about what the cubs should be doing than lefebre does harry said it best when he stated after another terrible vizcaino at bat we can t wait til sandberg returns david m nieporent only one thing wrong with theory niepornt phoenix is stupid is stupidest theory i ever heard princeton edu baltimore orioles who s the dangerous cult the bds or the batf
rec.sport.baseball	re billy gets cheers in baltimore in article apr jhuvms hcf jhu edu doctor jhuvms hcf jhu edu jason abner miller writes orioles vs texas at camden yards april opening day batting th for texas playing second base billy ripken the hometown crowd gave their favorite ex nd baseman a minute standing ovation as billy wearing flashy shades took the cheers smiling and waving consummate role player in the words of p a caller jon miller tim hulett failed to receive similar cheers when announced mainly because he didn t have the courtesy to show up wasn t hulett injured yesterday after being hit in the face with a ball while running bases i heard something about him recieving stiches and a possible broken nose is he at the park fernando was warmly received good to see that let s see how they feel when he s and with a era i have my doubts about fernando f y i when cal was announced jon miller says it seems like yesterday when this young man began a consecutive game streak time all star time mvp time gold glover our future hall of fame shortsop batting rd cal ripken the standing o lasted about seconds less than billy blargh well when a fan favorite gets dumped he s gonna get an outstanding ovation on his first return let s add up the ovations cal has recieved over the years during the game and compare that to billy btw sutcliffe s getting knocked around pretty good rangers up in the bottom of the fourth rob
rec.sport.baseball	re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes anyone who writes dean palmer has homers at this pace he ll have home runs should be shot the dodgers after one inning of play have committed one error at this rate they ll have errors this season well maybe i m right this time warren usui i m one with the universe on a scale from to
rec.sport.baseball	re designated hitter rule in ekdfc ttacs ttu edu ekdfc ttacs ttu edu david coons writes in apr bsu ucs ecgillespi leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i am doing a postition paper on the designated hitter rule any information or even opinions would be greatly apprecitated ecgillespie magic should be rescinded the rules say baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each let s keep it that way not any more the rules don t say that so that s a pretty dumb argument david m nieporent only one thing wrong with theory niepornt phoenix is stupid is stupidest theory i ever heard princeton edu baltimore orioles who s the dangerous cult the bds or the batf
rec.sport.baseball	re rickey henderson in article apr ra msstate edu js isis msstate edu jiann ming su writes i say buy out henderson s contract and let him go bag groceries next season you ll be able to sign him for nothing that goes for any bitching ball player stay in school you have a lot to learn
rec.sport.baseball	re designated hitter rule actually there can be any number of players on a side you can have a man roster a man roster etc ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	re why the redflops can but won t win don t knock vaughn for being a spring training hitter but a regular season hitter around games played isn t an indication of how good any hitter is and the quality of pitching is way down ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	re david wells has david wells landed with a team yet i d think the tigers with their anemic pitching would grab this guy pronto dc
rec.sport.baseball	re cleveland tragedy in article apr ns cc lehigh edu gaf ns cc lehigh edu gail a fullman writes i wonder if ojeda will sue anyone because his career may be over not due to the accident he just got a really bad haircut now if you meant due to his floating fastball well mark atchison a k a atchison cis ohio state edu graduate student in the computer science dept the ohio state university not an ohio state university any plagiarisms seen above are not my own
rec.sport.baseball	re pinch hitters was re denny walling rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john h rickert said and i thought mota didn t really start pinch hitting for a living until after depends on what you mean by for a living was the year he led the league in pinch hit at bats with but he d been getting a lot of ph abs earlier than that and was never a full time player ph abs early in his career a year just before going to the dodgers and in the peak years we re talking about a guy with a year career as an outfielder a career batting average and or so career hits david m tate i do not know what it is about you that closes posing as and opens only something in me understands e e can the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose s dy cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands
rec.sport.baseball	re marlins win marlins win dwarner journalism indiana edu said i only caught the tail end of this one on espn does anyone have a report look at all that teal bleah maybe it s just me but the combination of those young faces peeking out from under oversized aqua helmets screams little league in every fibre of my being david m tate i do not know what it is about you that closes posing as and opens only something in me understands e e can the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose s dy cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands
rec.sport.baseball	re new uniforms in article c vwc lru usenet ucs indiana edu bodom silver ucs indiana edu br ian odom writes as far as i know toronto pittsburgh and new york nl change their uniforms every year every other year e g new york it will say mets in cursive new york in cursive or new york in all caps minor changes but they do change them often last year i think they had new york in all caps did toronto have blue jays or toronto last year what about pittsburgh it depends on which uniforms you are talking about for the last couple of years i believe toronto and pittsburgh has used the same uniforms or at least very similar the home jerseys had the team nick name blue jays or pirates but the road jerseys had the name of the city toronto or pittsburgh i believe this is the way most teams design their uniforms chris
rec.sport.baseball	o s lose openr at home to rangers sutcliffe gives up hrs gonzales palmer and mills gives up hr gonzales to lose sutcliffe texas lefferts baltimore sutcliffe jody hagins hagins avlin us dg com data general corporation linthicum md
rec.sport.baseball	mlb logos part i have posted the logos of the nl east teams to alt binaries pictures misc hopefully i ll finish the series up next week with the nl west darren darren reiniger reiniger ug cs dal ca arishem ac dal ca centre for marine geology dalhousie university halifax n s canada people who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves where it came from in the first place
rec.sport.baseball	my predictions i thought i d post my predicted standings since i find those posted by others to be interesting sorry this is after opening day i certify that these were completed before the first pitch al east new york yankees the most only improved team in this division toronto blue jays stewart and morris no way milwaukee brewers they always seem to do better than i expect baltimore orioles pitching but devareaux anderson and hoiles will drop cleveland indians still don t seem to know what they are doing detroit tigers all key players but fryman are another year past peak boston red sox any team with clemens and viola might be beter than th al west this division was the toughest for me to pick whoever of the top gets pitching should win it minnesota twins young pitchers seem to have best chance for success texas rangers i don t know why i have them here jose canseco chicago white sox frank thomas but no pitching oakland a s larussa is the best manager and would keep any team close seattle mariners i like pinella but don t see much here kansas city royals will score no runs california angels will win no games nl east montreal expos good all around plus no wallach st louis cardinals jeffries whiten jose clark no galarraga pittsburgh pirates youngsters will take up more slack than expected new york mets some good players still not a team philadelphia phillies they don t impress me florida marlins they know what they re doing chicago cubs they don t know what they re doing nl west the best teams in baseball are in this division atlanta braves awesome starters but offense could be a concern cincinnati reds would not surprise me if they won it all houston astros any team that signs uribe won t contend closer to than san diego padres plantier could be the sheffield of los angeles dodgers better pitching than the giants san francisco giants because the rockies just stink colorado rockies will become the seattle mariners of the nl nlcs montreal d atlanta braves fans yes i m probably contradicting what i said in my nl west comment alcs new york d minnesota world series new york d montreal hating the yankees will be fashionable again nl mvp barry bonds or maybe mcgriff nl cy young jose rijo al mvp frank thomas will deserve it again but fielder might win it al cy young roger clemens at least will deserve it again david kenney kenney tribe b d ingr com
rec.sport.baseball	day day day disabled list questions i ve a curiousity whenever a person is put on the day day or day the person is on the list longer than the specificed time i ve seen a person on the day for maybe months last year i don t remember what i just need a little clarification on the disabled list specifications scotyy scott allen steinbrink go cleveland cavaliers nba finals netcom derich netcom com go cleveland indians world series digex derich digex com go cleveland browns super bowl
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers mss netcom com mark singer said we know that very very few players at this age make much of an impact in the bigs especially when they haven t even played aaa ball yes but this is irrelevant you re talking about averages when we have lots of information about this player in particular to base our decisions on i might as well say we know that very very few people are more than feet tall so chances are that manute bol is really only foot no maybe i need to improve my writing skills lopez who is very ordinary defensively is not likely to hit so well at age having not played at aaa level that it is probably not a good idea to rush him into the braves lineup in why isn t lopez likely to hit that well he hit that well last year after adjusting his stats for park and league and such he hit better on an absolute scale than olson or berryhill did by a lot as for rushing if there really is a qualitative difference between the minors and the majors that requires a period of adjustment and i don t believe there is then wouldn t you rather waste lopez s year old good season than his year old very good season or his year old excellent season the sooner you get him acclimated the more of his prime you get to use lopez was hitting over ab when he was cut from spring training what does he have to do to earn a chance maybe not a full time job but at least a couple starts and a few ab for him to prove his worth gee i don t know abs sounds pretty good to me about as good as your reasoning that the kid should play a back up role rather than start every day at aaa talk about me as a gm the point was not that ab is a significant sample but rather that he hadn t done anything in spring training to cause even a blockhead manager to question whether his minor league numbers were for real or to send him down until he gets warmed up ok most players are not ready for the bigs at age most players are never ready for the bigs what does this have to do with javy lopez most players benefit rather than being stagnant or hurt by playing at aaa see above most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their clubs in the bigs those are the arguments against lopez for the braves for this year but i could apply the same reasoning to frank thomas or barry bonds most players aren t that good so they probably won t be that good this year either now the braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid abilities to call games to work with the pitchers to throw out runners and demonstrated inabilities to hit their way out of a soap bubble not superstars mind you but solid experienced veterans not superstars not stars not even good players maybe average if we re being charitable the braves have a very solid lineup with two big bats in the outfield an excellent platoon at first a solid mvp candidate at third and one of the better hitting shortstops ummm justice is a very fine hitter pendleton might have another big year in his bat but he might also spend the season in hamstring hell gant is a big question mark the bream hunter platoon is decent not excellent and has rotten obp or slg depending on who s in blauser is a very valuable bat for a shortstop the center field platoon will probably hit however good lopez bat might be given the above it won t be so much better than what they have to offset the differential in experience and defensive ability wanna bet the difference between lopez s bat and olson berryhill could be or runs over the course of the season given a choice between a player with experience and a player who can play i ll take the latter every time the kid will improve playing at aaa just like keith mitchell did i am just so surprised i have to spell all of this out my goodness do you believe the other poster who thinks lopez is being held down because of his future earning potential that was me and you so far your only counter proposal is that they really don t understand how good lopez is or overvalue experience or some combination of the two i think my interpretation was more flattering to the organization are they idiots who have built this ballclub well argued but inflammatory reply deleted david m tate i do not know what it is about you that closes posing as and opens only something in me understands e e can the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose s dy cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers mss netcom com mark singer said in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david m tate writes well perhaps if the braves had no one else worth playing this year it would be lopez in there but they do have others worth playing at least in their opinion catcher is their weakest position with the possible exception of second base they have a chance to simultaneously replace their biggest offensive problem spot with a well above average offensive player and acclimate a highly promising potential star with no pressure on him to carry the team and they want to play olson and berryhill instead i disagree in that i don t think it is a tangible skill any more than leadership is i don t deny that it is a real skill and that some catchers may be much better than others at it but i really don t see any way that we could ever know who they are nichols s law of catcher defense is eerily accurate far too often for me to take defensive assessments of catchers very seriously sorry new don t know nichols law a catcher s defensive reputation will be inversely proportional to his recent offensive level of performance thus mickey tettleton goes in the media from being a no hit defensive whiz to a slugging thumb finger in two short years the rule doesn t apply to perceived superstars who get the gold glove offensive transfer effect instead greg olson is probably considered to be a good defensive catcher precisely because he can t hit don t believe in catchers era but i am interested in pitchers eras with different catchers aren t they the same thing in other words we know more than they do so the only logic behind a different decision than we would make must be financial either that or just stupidity i presume we feel this way about other franchises than atlanta no of course is it fair to the young players no does it make organizational sense i think it does well if it does make organizational sense one can hardly fault them for their decisions i mean please don t tell me how to run my business especially when i m being successful one could make the same sort of argument in other cases pete rose in pursuing ty cobb s record was a huge gate attraction and national media magnet the reds made a lot of money off that they also wasted the prime of eric davis that may be good business but that doesn t mean i don t loathe them for it david m tate i do not know what it is about you that closes posing as and opens only something in me understands e e can the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose s dy cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for tue apr th mlb standings and scores for tuesday april th including yesterday s games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road atlanta braves won cincinnati reds won san diego padres san francisco giants colorado rockies lost houston astros lost los angeles dodgers lost national east florida marlins won new york mets won philadelphia phillies won pittsburgh pirates st louis cardinals chicago cubs lost montreal expos lost american west won lost pct gb last streak home road oakland athletics won texas rangers won california angels chicago white sox minnesota twins seattle mariners kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox won new york yankees won milwaukee brewers toronto blue jays baltimore orioles lost cleveland indians lost detroit tigers lost yesterday s scores national league american league montreal new york cincinnati cleveland atlanta texas chicago baltimore los angeles boston florida kansas city philadelphia detroit houston oakland colorado california idle new york chicago idle pittsburgh idle milwaukee idle st louis idle minnesota idle san diego idle seattle idle san franciscoidle toronto idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	braves win opener well maddux looked excellent as the braves shutout the cubs justice drove in the only run with an rbi single in the first get ready for him to have a monster year he is now hitting the ball to the opposite field with a lot of power to go with his natural power to right field and his good batting eye if he stays healthy which he should his back is full strength this year he should get over rbi and close to hr in another note the marlins got off to a good start beating the dodgers i believe the score was but i m not sure i wish them and the rockies well this year hell i think it would be funny to watch the dodgers hit the cellar again this year dan smith
rec.sport.baseball	re rickey henderson in article apr ra msstate edu js isis msstate edu jiann ming su writes in article ls d vinns appserv eng sun com str maredsous eng sun com todd rader writes stay in school you have a lot to learn learn what i know that million dollars is a lot of money i know rickey henderson doesn t have a career out of baseball i know if he didn t have baseball he wouldn t be making near the money he is now and michael jackson jack nicholson and bill cosby wouldn t be making near as much money if they weren t entertainers so what s your point i just don t understand how some athlete who only plays a sport for a living for millions of dollars say he is not being paid enough if nobody will sign him for his asking price he will be the one hurting the a s will still win without him will they you can t usually take away one of the team s best players and still expect them to win or do you think the pirates will continue to win without barry bonds remeber many of these athletes have nothing if not for their athletic ability nothing they are getting paid much more than most hard working citizens and they are complaining of not enough pay so again jack nicholson gets paid much more than most hard working citizens and much more than rickey henderson for that matter i don t have a problem with them making millions my problem is when the say they aren t being paid enough when they already get million also their numbers get worse the reason the latter often happens is that many of these folks start making the real big salaries late in their career when they are on the decline there are exceptions of course dave parker fell apart after making his first million because he put most of that million up his nose jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com
rec.sport.baseball	white sox mailing list hi gang i d like to subscribe to the white sox mailing list if one exists can someone please e mail me the address thanks alot john jhunter mta ca
rec.sport.baseball	re new uniforms while i enjoy the trend towards the more classic style of uniform and i disagree with the person who wants a return to the non gray road uniforms it should be remembered that one of the if not the reason for the redesigning of uniforms especially hats re the new road all green a s caps and the cardinal navy blue road cap is the marketing money to be made in sales of new merchandise jeffrey popovich jpopovich guvax georgetown edu
rec.sport.baseball	help looking for cleveland sports mailing list info i m looking for the address to join the cleveland sports mailing list if anyone knows it i would be greatful if they could email a copy of it to me if you are a member just mail me one of the list s letters i could probably figure it out from there thanks mm mm fffff michael j fath m m m m f dept of microbiology and molecular genetics m m m fff harvard medical school m m f boston ma fath mbcrr harvard edu
rec.sport.baseball	re brewer notes in mar music lib matc edu pfan pfan music lib matc edu writes for those of you who know who bernie brewer is he s back the team mascot if you will was given his walking papers a few years ago but the fans voted him back last season and he will be perched in the his familiar home in the outfield and will again slide down into a barrel of beer when home runs are hit that is great to hear i just may have to take a raod trip to milwakee this year and see that again last time i saw bernie brewer was at the age of and i am now thanks for this post one final note bill spiers is leading the brewers with rbi s in exhibition play looks like he s bouncing back nicely from back problems good to bill is getting better form the limited coverage we get here in iowa i know that this will be a great season for the brew crew pete fanning computer operator leadership is action office of information technology not position milwaukee area technical college d h mcgannon email pfan music lib matc edu internet or pete fanning f n z fidonet org
rec.sport.baseball	re grateful dead in article io maine maine edu io maine maine edu writes being a baseball fan and a fan of the above mentioned band i was wondering if anyone could clue me in on whether the dead or members of sang the national anthem at todays giant opener i would imagine that it is a bit too early for anyone to know but an answer would be greatly appreciated it is my understanding that the dead will sing the na at the giants home opener on mon the giants are opening today in st louis luigi randy palermo luigi csd sgi com fax silicon graphics computer systems n shoreline blvd mt view ca play an accordion go to jail that s the law
rec.sport.baseball	re day day day disabled list questions in article derichc gje fja netcom com derich netcom com scotty tissue writes whenever a person is put on the day day or day the person is on the list longer than the specificed time i ve seen a person on the day for maybe months last year i don t remember what i just need a little clarification on the disabled list specifications i believe we are down to two the day and the day i don t remember a day but rather a day anyways it s gone now the period length is a minimum not a maximum you can keep a guy on the day for as long as you want if he s still certified as injured the player must be periodically re evaluated to determine if he s still injured thus you cannot park a player on the dl who maybe is out of options and you do not wish to expose to waivers if you get someone qualified for the day that reduces the frequency of re evaluations there is no longer i believe any limit to the number of players you can place on the dl when there was you often had to choose and juggle your injured players between the lists king sparky banaian no taxes no new taxes kbanaian pitzer claremont edu no old taxes we are taxed dept of economics pitzer college enough rep alan keyes latest gdp forecast please run alan
rec.sport.baseball	re mo sanford in article apr ra msstate edu js jazz cc msstate edu jiann ming su writes does any know if mo sanford rockies pitcher got cut he use to be with the reds but was drafted in the expansion draft i believe he was sent down to aaa
rec.sport.baseball	re my predictions for in article apr oswego oswego edu iacs oswego oswego edu kevin mundstock writes since everyone else seems to be running wild with predictions i ve decided to add my own fuel to the fire they might seem a bit normal but there are a few albeit small surprises al manager of the year buck showalter what makes you think buck will still be in new york at year s end with george back keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs next time you go over my head i ll have yours on a platter cmdr benjamin sisko
rec.sport.baseball	re new uniforms jpopovich guvax acc georgetown edu writes while i enjoy the trend towards the more classic style of uniform and i disagree with the person who wants a return to the non gray road uniforms it should be remembered that one of the if not the reason for the redesigning of uniforms especially hats re the new road all green a s caps and the cardinal navy blue road cap is the marketing money to be made in sales of new merchandise no kidding just ask the white sox too bad really john neuharth neuharth u washington edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jim lefebvre is an idiot rickc krill corp sgi com richard casares writes in article apr bsu ucs bjgood leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i just wanted to let everyone know that i have lost what little respect i have for jim lefebvre after seeing today s cubs game a dishard cub fan yes i also wonder if they can win with this manager i never believed managers had that much to do with winning until i saw how much they had to do with losing i like the mariners a lot but my heart belongs to the cubs you can imagine my frustration when i saw the cubs nabbing lefebvre arhgghrghh john neuharth neuharth u washington edu
rec.sport.baseball	re marlins win marlins win genetic pitt edu david m tate writes dwarner journalism indiana edu said i only caught the tail end of this one on espn does anyone have a report look at all that teal bleah maybe it s just me but the combination of those young faces peeking out from under oversized aqua helmets screams little league in every fibre of my being hmm it seems the little leaguers didn t do too badly against hershiser strawberry e davis and the rest of the dodgers yesterday eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci
rec.sport.baseball	re harry and candy f violet ccit arizona edu greg franklin writes rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes i m watching a cubs rockies spring training game and i thought you d all like to know the particular way that harry caray butchers maldonado it seems to be mal n dal nado but i like the way he butchers andres galarraga s name it comes out like gahlah rrrraggggah and don t forget his frequent references to the great sf giant star bobby bonds what about thaaammy thotha i for one was really sorry to hear that the cubs had sent heathcliff slocumb to the minors eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david m tate writes mss netcom com mark singer said we know that very very few players at this age make much of an impact in the bigs especially when they haven t even played aaa ball yes but this is irrelevant you re talking about averages when we have lots of information about this player in particular to base our decisions on do you really have that much information on him really why isn t lopez likely to hit that well he hit that well last year after adjusting his stats for park and league and such he hit better on an absolute scale than olson or berryhill did by a lot i don t know you tell me what percentage of players reach or exceed their mle s in their rookie season we re talking about you know as for rushing if there really is a qualitative difference between the minors and the majors that requires a period of adjustment and i don t believe there is then wouldn t you rather waste lopez s year old good season than his year old very good season or his year old excellent season the sooner you get him acclimated the more of his prime you get to use if that were your purpose maybe offerman spent getting acclimated if you will the dodgers as a team paid a big price that season perhaps they will reap the benefits down the road do you really think they would have done what they did if they were competing for a pennant lopez was hitting over ab when he was cut from spring training what does he have to do to earn a chance maybe not a full time job but at least a couple starts and a few ab for him to prove his worth the point was not that ab is a significant sample but rather that he hadn t done anything in spring training to cause even a blockhead manager to question whether his minor league numbers were for real or to send him down until he gets warmed up for a stat head i m amazed that you put any credence in spring training did you notice who he got those hits off of or are you going to tell me that it doesn t make a difference the kid will improve playing at aaa just like keith mitchell did wait a minute i missed something here first forget keith mitchell are you saying that a kid who moves from aa to aaa and then does not improve would have been better off making a direct leap to the majors if a player does well at aa and then does not improve at aaa isn t that a sign that maybe he doesn t belong in the bigs now keith mitchell as i recall no stat books handy surprise he jumped from aa to atlanta in he did so well that he was returned to the minors where he didn t do very well at all now his career is in jeopardy so how does he fit in with your point good mle s in aa moved him right to the big club now he s one step away from being traded or moved out of baseball duh that was me and you so far your only counter proposal is that they really don t understand how good lopez is or overvalue experience or some combination of the two i think my interpretation was more flattering to the organization well i ve cast my lot certainly you may understand better how good lopez is and i may overvalue experience but neither one of us runs a baseball team the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re marlins first rbi in article psgriinni rpco acslab umbc edu cs umbc edu cs writes hey i was watching the orioles game on tv yesterday monday when a report came in to the booth that the first runs came in on a three run single did this really happen if it did how they said that the leadoff man knocked them in what exactly happened thanks walt weiss tripled just barely inside the right field line and into the corner driving in santiago and conine these were the first two rbis the third came later when weiss was knocked in daniel
rec.sport.baseball	re my picks with only one comment in article psbg inngjj master cs rose hulman edu rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john h rickert writes in article jfr ra msstate edu jfr ra msstate edu jackie f russell writes psg pitt edu paul s galvanek writes national league west cincinnati houston atlanta argh here is where you are obviously dead wrong not since the yankees of the s and s has a team been so nicely setup as this years and years to come braves i don t think that the all star team will be able to beat this may be an appropriate comparison the yankees finshed nd rd and nd finshing and games out of first in and they also finished second though they were only and games out even great teams can lose that s why they play the season on the other hand i m still picking the braves to go all the way um surely you didn t intend to compare the reds with the philidelphia a s the yankees were finishing nd to a team that was as good as the yankees while the yankees had aged some from their peak years ruth and gehrig couldn t play every position simultaneously imo given the various ages of the braves and reds this season that the braves will be closer to their peak while the reds have slightly passed their peak also if you re going to compare braves and yankees a more appropriate comparison to the braves might be the yankees after falling short two years in a row in exciting world series both teams won will win the series this year despite the heroics of some old fart on the other team casey stengel dave winfield eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu i am a marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close
rec.sport.baseball	re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb in article apr locus com aardvark spica la locus com warren usui writes in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes anyone who writes dean palmer has homers at this pace he ll have home runs should be shot now on the other hand juan gonzales probably does have a shot at hr s the dodgers after one inning of play have committed one error at this rate they ll have errors this season well maybe i m right this time actually you might be underpredicting eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu i am a marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close
rec.sport.baseball	re yankkes game closer my god hope we don t have to put up with this kind of junk all season in article w axe acadiau ca w axe acadiau ca jason walter works writes the n y yankees are now one game closer to the a l east pennant they clobbered cleveland on a fine pitching performance by key and two homeruns by tartabull first m l baseball to go out this season and a three how many home runs by tartabull just right you must be thinking of dean palmer or juan gonzalez both of texas who each had homers run homer by nokes for all of you who didn t pick boggs in your pools tough break he had a couple hits and drove in a couple runs with many more i don t know how many to follow but he was for go yanks mattingly for g glove and mvp and abbot for cy young spare us please
rec.sport.baseball	re marlins win marlins win look at all that teal bleah indeed if the color teal on a team s uniforms is any indication of the future the marlins are in dire trouble refer to the san jose sharks for proof but i have hope for the marlins i was a sometime member of the rene lachemann fan club at the oakland coliseum and have a deep respect for the guy he s a gem and of course walt weiss gives that franchise class but yeah whoever designed those uniforms was guilty of a paucity of style and imagination ugghhh lloyd r nebres uc berkeley internet lloyd uclink berkeley edu vox or never underestimate the bandwidth of a carrying a ton of cd roms
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article mssc ril e netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes your speculation and others that lopez will produce better than the two proven veterans is nothing more than speculation no matter how well founded your speculation that the two proven veterans will produce better than lopez is also no more than speculation it does make a difference whether the speculation is well founded or not obviously the braves believe they can win with the catching they have and i agree if they change their minds they ll call up lopez though this is a good point the one speculation is safer because it can be reversed cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	call for votes dtbl mvp and cy please vote the regular season of the davis tabletop baseball league has just come to an end to help us with next year s league i would appreciate it if you would take a couple of minutes and vote for our league mvp and cy winners these awards and players standings in them will inflate their salaries for next year s league please vote for in each category in order for example barry bonds frank thomas biff pocoroba shooty babitt lips lundy please do not vote for pitchers in mvp voting for this league each team in the league gets one candidate for mvp and one for cy defensive position is listed where applicable along with an abbreviation of their performance there e excellent v very good a average p poor b very poor thanks please reply by april for the record the season was games long thanks for your help mvp candidates name g ab h b b hr r rbi bb k sb cs ibb ba obp slg def griffey p emartinez a sandberg v ventura e mcgriff p mcgwire e ralomar p dykstra a butler b deer v bonds e hrbek p jgonzalez b some players missed time due to injuries others were sat down at the end to avoid the possibility of injury there are better players than those on this list but each team gets one and only one candidate some players played more than games due to being traded to teams with more games left in the same time span now on to the pitchers name era g w l s ip h bb k hr gs cg sho wp dmartinez dibble rijo mussina benes khill smoltz cone drabek tewksbury clemens tomlin farr there you have it curt schilling threw a perfect game during the year and ken hill threw a no hitter rob dibble had pitched scoreless innings to start the year only to choke in the last two games to cost the perot s giant sucking sounds a playoff spot if you want stats of more players they are available by request please take the time to reply if you can thanks gary huckabay kevin kerr the al feldstein of the mid s a living argument for if there s anything we love more than a huge existence of parallel sig it s someone quoting lines to add universes or new ones and consecutive posts too o o ooo ooo david zavatson mein schatz es ist soweit unsere liebe ist vorbei
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers since i was the one responsible for these divergent threads of approx posts going back to the braves could be better off if an injury happens i may as well inject a little more fuel to the flame back at the beginning of spring training i though lopez would make the squad easily olson was still recovering from his late season injury knee i believe and there were questions as to whether he would be able to play before june and then berryhill was dinged up i was looking forward to this because i believe that lopez can hit and field the position before last season he was the braves defensive catcher prospect while brian deak was the braves offensive catcher prospect besides olson and berryhill couldn t hit their way out of a wet cardboard box and don t walk enough to be useful but olson recovered quickly berryhill recovered and the braves went with the two vets i still say that if one of those two had been down at the start of the season he wouldn t have gotten his job back there is a certain logic to keeping olson and berryhill around after all ml catchers are in short supply and suffer from wear and tear there are teams out there without one average ml catcher california and seattle come to mind certainly trying to move olson or berryhill through waivers would be unlikely to work plus you d have to eat that salary which isn t huge but isn t tiddleywinks either i think olson s at about berryhill at but that s only what i recall yes i think arbitration eligibility may have a role to play in this also what is it that of the year players aren t eligible for arbitration only the that were on the roster the longest are eligible of course the system may change but the extent of that change is not yet known from a business standpoint it may make sense to keep lopez down until june the first time olson berryhill go on the dl i am still disappointed that lopez isn t on the team i still prefer to think of myself as a fan when it comes to the braves and the truth is that i d rather see our best team on the field which imo includes lopez of course today we play the cubs hopefully we won t need him as for the schuerholz cox conversation i imagine it went like this remember they ve both been gm s the following is not meant to be read by the humor impaired cox ok we ve sent jones down his fielding could be a little smoother besides blauser can hit ok and his fielding is better than it used to be schuerholz well we ll have to send nieves down too deion just won t sign that baseball only contract we can t count on him in october so we have to keep nixon around for the defense besides gorman s not ready to give up on billy hatcher yet once hatcher s gone and deion signs we can move nixon for frankie rodriguez that ought to give us some pitching depth in cox yep that ll be nice too bad deion won t sign ok i ll look for nieves when justice starts having berry berry er back problems again now what about klesko schuerholz well we ve still got to fork out another mil for bream if we keep klesko we either lose the money or cabrera i keep dangling sid in front of dal maxwell but somehow he doesn t seem to be the same gm first jeffries for jose and now whiten for clark if he gets rid of brian jordan then i d have to believe that he and whitey herzog switched bodies at the winter meetings cox ok keep trying on bream and i ll wait til the trading deadline for my hunter klesko platoon maybe i can get a few extra at bats for cabrera while we wait try california if snow starts slowly maybe whiteydal will bite on sid and if that doesn t work then perhaps sid s knees could be persuaded to act up there s always the day dl mwa ha ha ha ha schuerholz what about caraballo cox well he s not that much better than lemke maybe if he starts in richmond he ll start walking more besides if he s going to be arbitration eligible better to stretch him out so that we actually get some value from him before he makes the big bucks schuerholz now let s see that leaves lopez cox nooooo i gotta keep lopez sure i didn t think olson would recover this quickly maybe i can talk caminiti into running into him again schuerholz nope lopez has gotta go you know that he ll get million in arbitration may as well put it off that one extra year besides until olson s shown his stuff a little bit i can t trade him besides berryhill s a left handed hitter you know how rare that is cox don t you mean a left handed whiffer pretty common if you ask me i mean he made pat borders look good in the world series pat borders schuerholz hey you re the one who wouldn t write lopez into the lineup cox well you re the one who went out and got me jeff reardon besides i thought lopez wouldn t be used to our pitching staff s stuff he got some time with them this spring looked pretty good come on surely we only need to keep one stiff behind the plate schuerholz yeah but which stiff whichever one we keep will be hurt by may cox ok ok you made your point keep them both surely one of them will be on the dl by june at the latest then i can call up lopez and then we can win games the pennant the world series i ll be up there with john mcgraw casey stengel earl weaver oh they laughed at me in toronto but have you ever had to deal with george bell i ll finally get my just reward mwa ha ha ha schuerholz easy bobby have you been taking those happy pills left around by chuck tanner why d you ever hire that guy anyhow cox don t ask me ask ted eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu i am a marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close
rec.sport.baseball	re binaca blast deep drive derby bbddd returns the engimatic vincent gray writes king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes even less publicized than this however was that the didn t come from the padres but from an un named source and that the money didn t go to the blue jays in toronto the money was diverted into a london bank account owned by a shadowy character named vincent gray i should be so lucky the account number must have been rejected oh come on everybody on the net has heard about plausible deniability you re not fooling anybody soon after that gray and palmer sent word to ottawa that canada had achieved absolute superiority over the united states in the field of baseballistic research as she controlled both the acker cook pitch alike contest and the binaca blast research institute the prime minister smiled i hope not to think that i would inadvertantly give any pleasure to mulroney really ruins my day note how quick vince was to make the inference that my post claimed that mulroney was smiling at the baseballistics news this sure looks like guilty knowledge to me realizing the taterific importance of this work john palmer and i concluded that we might be able to pool some resources i e the grand who will be the stars this year can anyone hope to combat brad arnsberg s record start to last year the early money has to be on tom tom bolton who contributed that clutch grandslam in his first appearance but i expect lots of strong contenders this year many of them right here in san diego jking
rec.sport.baseball	cubs behind marlins how i ve noticed that is has become fashionable lately in rsb to predict the marlines to finish ahead of the cubs how first base grace vs destrade could destrade be the second coming of cecil fielder i doubt it if destrade performs to the height of expectations then even otherwise edge to cubs second base sandberg vs barberie no contest sandberg will be back may edge to cubs a big edge shortstop vizcaino vs weiss vizcaino is excellent defensively but is an automatic out at bat weiss isn t much better with the stick even third base dave magadan vs buechelle magadan has a higher obp and is a better hitter buechelle has more power and is better defensively i think edge to florida catcher santiago vs wilkins wilkins is ok but santiago is better edge to marlins left field conine vs maldonado wow for yesterday i know conine has potential i watched him play at omaha the last couple years until he actually proves himself i give maldonado the edge however like at b this is position where florida might be even or better if the player there has a huge year center scott pose vs wilson may edge to may even if wilson hopefully the cubs will use may and save wilson for pinch running and the like may isn t ken griffey jr but he will hit with homers if he plays full time right felix vs sosa felix jose has occasional power and a bad obp so does sosa but sosa also has speed and a good glove edge to cubs starters aquino armstrong hammond a lot of fifth starters here the cubs won t remind anyone of the brave staff but morgan castillo guzman hibbard is average to ok better than the marline edge to cubs middle relief even the cubs have some decent middlemen and so do the marlins carpenter anf klink or decent but so are assenmacher and mcelroy closer a healthy harvey is a big edge to the marlins meyers is decent but no harvey of course the cubs may have a few more games to save look for saves blown from meyers and saves blown with a better era for harvey edge florida overall an edge to chicago neither of these teams will threaten to win anything of course e msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball geddy lee
rec.sport.baseball	re when did dodgers move from ny to la in article apr ncar ucar edu tparker music scd ucar edu tom parker writes i have a bet with my buddy on when the dodgers moved from ny to la does anyone know what year they moved the dodgers first year in la was
rec.sport.baseball	re best record ever in baseball in article psl jinnam jhunix hcf jhu edu admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve c liu writes of all teams i believe the cubs have the best record ever in baseball sometime way far back and something i think it was the cleveland indians with
rec.sport.baseball	re my predictions in article apr infonode ingr com kenney tribe b d ingr com writes i thought i d post my predicted standings since i find those posted by others to be interesting sorry this is after opening day i certify that these were completed before the first pitch nl west the best teams in baseball are in this division atlanta braves awesome starters but offense could be a concern cincinnati reds would not surprise me if they won it all houston astros any team that signs uribe won t contend closer to than san diego padres plantier could be the sheffield of los angeles dodgers better pitching than the giants san francisco giants because the rockies just stink colorado rockies will become the seattle mariners of the nl nlcs montreal d atlanta braves fans yes i m probably contradicting what i said in my nl west comment alcs new york d minnesota world series new york d montreal hating the yankees will be fashionable again nl mvp barry bonds or maybe mcgriff i guarantee that if bonds wins the mvp the giants will finish higher than th luigi randy palermo luigi csd sgi com fax silicon graphics computer systems n shoreline blvd mt view ca play an accordion go to jail that s the law
rec.sport.baseball	reds without sleeves was re new uniforms am i the only person who thinks the reds sleeveless uniforms are ugly yet another reason why they won t win the nl west eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu i am a marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close
rec.sport.baseball	re joe robbie stadium not for baseball in article apr oswego oswego edu iacs oswego edu kevin mundstock writes from iacs oswego edu kevin mundstock subject joe robbie stadium not for baseball date apr gmt did anyone notice the words not for baseball printed on the picture of joe robbie stadium in the opening day season preview section in usa today any reason given for this i would assume that the words i saw the picture indicated that those seats will not be available for baseball games if you look at the picture of the diamond in the stadium in relation to the areas marked not for baseball those seats just look terrible for watching baseball now if they should happen to reach the post season i would imagine that they would consider opening some of those seats up but that is surely a worry of the future sam lubchansky spl po cwru edu in the champion people see what they d like to be in the loser they see what they actually are and they treat him with scorn sugary condiments secure initial pleasure but fermented grain is decidedly more parsimonious of time
rec.sport.baseball	re best lifetime record in baseball history in article apr corning com cecce aj corning com writes speaking of the marlins winning the opener based on lifetime percentage of games won who has the second best record in baseball history soon to be the best record again if i had to guess i would be forced to say the yankees on the other hand the blue jays might be up there too hmmmmm tony blue jays no way hell but the yankees probably do remember the yankees had the best record of any team in the s and probably take the s through s as well
rec.sport.baseball	re yankkes game closer in article w axe acadiau ca w axe acadiau ca jason walter works writes the n y yankees are now one game closer to the a l east pennant they clobbered cleveland on a fine pitching performance by key and two homeruns by tartabull first m l baseball to go out this season and a three run homer by nokes for all of you who didn t pick boggs in your pools tough break he had a couple hits and drove in a couple runs with many more to follow the yanks beat an up and coming team of youngsters in the indians the yankees only need to win more games to get the division go yanks mattingly for g glove and mvp and abbot for cy young jason jason i am going to a yankee game wed night at cleveland stadium i am so happy but cleveland is a very bad team who lost severalrs they were an up and coming team now they are just a sad excuse for a better average abbot will not win the cy melido perez will as bold a prediction as they come well herot be in last place by the end of the season mike lurie speaks and the world listens
rec.sport.baseball	yankee meditations do you realize that the yankees are paying matt nokes dollars this year geesh and maas only gets by the way the yankees are going to win it all yankees are the best by the way jt snow an ex yankee will be rookie of the year
rec.sport.baseball	re joe robbie stadium not for baseball in article apr oswego oswego edu iacs oswego edu kevin mundstock writes did anyone notice the words not for baseball printed on the picture of joe robbie stadium in the opening day season preview section in usa today any reason given for this yes and the answer is simple to create a better feeling in the park the seats will be folded back for baseball games where you saw those words
rec.sport.baseball	mile high runs how many runs will be scored in denver i don t know but some idea can be gotten by looking at the runs scored in mile high stadium during the last few years of the bears zephyrs tenure in the american association here s the total runs scored per game in zephyrs games all league games and the ratio i found the same ratios for hr year rpg lea ratio hrpg lea ratio it seems pretty clear that denver will have a large effect on runs scored i ll stick with my prediction from last year that it ll be one of the top in the nl this year and a fairly large effect on homeruns though apparently not as large as atlanta wrigley cincinnati and san diego still it ought to be a pretty decent home run park john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu
rec.sport.baseball	re my picks with only one comment in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes in article psbg inngjj master cs rose hulman edu rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john h rickert writes in article jfr ra msstate edu jfr ra msstate edu jackie f russell writes psg pitt edu paul s galvanek writes national league west cincinnati houston atlanta argh here is where you are obviously dead wrong not since the yankees of the s and s has a team been so nicely setup as this years and years to come braves i don t think that the all star team will be able this may be an appropriate comparison the yankees finshed nd rd and nd finshing and games out of first in and they also finished second though they were only and games out even great teams can lose that s why they play the season on the other hand i m still picking the braves to go all the way um surely you didn t intend to compare the reds with the philidelphia a s the yankees were finishing nd to a team that was as good as the yankees while the yankees had aged some from their peak years ruth and gehrig couldn t play every position simultaneously imo given the various ages of the braves and reds this season that the braves will be closer to their peak while the reds have slightly passed their peak also if you re going to compare braves and yankees a more appropriate comparison to the braves might be the yankees after falling short two years in a row in exciting world series both teams won will win the series this year despite the heroics of some old fart on the other team casey stengel dave winfield perhaps so i was only responding to the yankees of the s and s part of the comment if those teams were a sure thing and lost then it s probably not so unreasonable for someone to pick another team not that i did john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu go brewers
rec.sport.baseball	re marlins win marlins win in article lloyd lloyd uclink berkeley edu lloyd nebres writes look at all that teal bleah indeed if the color teal on a team s uniforms is any indication of the future the marlins are in dire trouble refer to the san jose sharks for proof but i have hope for the marlins i was a sometime member of the rene lachemann fan club at the oakland coliseum and have a deep respect for the guy he s a gem and of course walt weiss gives that franchise class but yeah whoever designed those uniforms was guilty of a paucity of style and imagination ugghhh maybe i m just a child of the s but i really liked the marlins uniforms the helmets shine nicely in the sun it s enough to make me a fan ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the u of c law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal
rec.sport.baseball	mark whiten i was on vacation all last week and didn t see any news at all could somebody fill me in on how st louis ended up with mark whiten in a trade who did we give up arocha allen watson dmitri young or did dal make a decent deal russ smith i don t know anything about x s but i know about some o george gervin on being an assistant coach
rec.sport.baseball	re info needed for cleveland tickets in article apr leland stanford edu bohnert leland stanford edu matthew bohnert writes i m going to be in cleveland thursday april to sunday april does anybody know if the tribe will be in town on those dates and if so who re they playing and if tickets are available the tribe will be in town from april to the th there are always tickets available though they are playing toronto and many toronto fans make the trip to cleveland as it is easier to get tickets in cleveland than in toronto either way i seriously doubt they will sell out until the end of the season doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu
rec.sport.baseball	re yogi isms here s one i remember sort of yogi s asleep in a hotel room late at night and gets a call from someone after he answers the phone the person at the other end asks if he woke yogi up yogi answered no the phone did kevin one of my favorites came back in the seventies when two streakers interupted a game yogi was at dashing across the field unclad later someone who wasn t present asked yogi if they were men or women he replied i couldn t tell they had bags over their heads
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers mss netcom com mark singer said in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david m tate writes mss netcom com mark singer said we know that very very few players at this age make much of an impact in the bigs especially when they haven t even played aaa ball yes but this is irrelevant you re talking about averages when we have lots of information about this player in particular to base our decisions on do you really have that much information on him really i don t personally but clay just posted it yes we do unfortunately it shows that lopez wasn t as good an example as nieves would have been since his last year numbers were out of line with the previous years which i didn t have access to the point remains though knowing a guy s minor league history is as good as knowing his major league history if you know how to read it why isn t lopez likely to hit that well he hit that well last year after adjusting his stats for park and league and such he hit better on an absolute scale than olson or berryhill did by a lot i don t know you tell me what percentage of players reach or exceed their mle s in their rookie season we re talking about you know the mle is not a projection it s an equivalence it s a this is how well he hit last year in major league terms rating so in essence he has already reached it i would guess bob clay that essentially half of all players surpass their previous mles in their rookie seasons maybe more than half since all of these players are young and improving if that were your purpose maybe offerman spent getting acclimated if you will the dodgers as a team paid a big price that season did they offerman may have been the difference between th or th place and last place but no more perhaps they will reap the benefits down the road do you really think they would have done what they did if they were competing for a pennant sure they didn t have anyone better i suppose they might have gutted the farm system to acquire jay bell or spike owen or somebody if they were really in contention the point was not that ab is a significant sample but rather that he hadn t done anything in spring training to cause even a blockhead manager to question whether his minor league numbers were for real or to send him down until he gets warmed up for a stat head i m amazed that you put any credence in spring training if you d read what i wrote you d be less amazed nowhere do i claim to put any credence in spring training quite the contrary i said that lopez hadn t done anything that even the bozos who do put credence in spring training could interpret as failure just because i think spring training numbers are meaningless doesn t mean that bobby cox does it s just a case of ruling out one possible explanation for sending lopez down the kid will improve playing at aaa just like keith mitchell did wait a minute i missed something here keith mitchell did very very well at aa aaa and the majors over a season then did very very poorly for a year in aaa david m tate i do not know what it is about you that closes posing as and opens only something in me understands e e can the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose s dy cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands
rec.sport.baseball	sax any more news on steve s status since he lost the starting job would be appreciated thanks gwyn
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers most of this discussion has been between mark singer and david tate with valentine weighing in on the same side as dave at various times my opinion fwiw to all mark age doesn t matter ability does i would rather have the untried rookie with great minor league numbers than the veteran who has proven himself to be average at best i don t care if he is if he plays better than what i have i want him out there sandy alomar had decent minor league numbers grossly inflated by the pcl in general and las vegas in particular he should have been projected as an average major league hitter which is good for a catcher i ll admit santiago s numbers would probably come out the same as sandy s but i don t have the league data from the mid s to check it out that being said i agree with sending lopez to richmond at least to start the season as the box below shows he has one minor league season in which he hit well he has two in which he hit very very poorly i want to see that the lopez is real olson and berryhill are not complete mediocrities for catchers especially nl catchers they are essentially average hitters with equivalent averages around if he had hit well at prior levels i would say he belongs on the braves but there is a reasonable chance that lopez last year was just as much a fluke as alomar in or santiago in one year at any level at any age doesn t satisfy my standards of evidence javier lopez bur dur grn atl maj min tot maj min tot on a similar note i don t understand why more people are not supportive of neon deion granted i thought his behavior with mccarver last year was completely bush last year was the first time he ever got ab in one place so his lines are hard to read but he has a combined ops in minor league play with his speed is more valuable than the ops alone indicates and at a still young age had a monster year with an ops he has a total major and minor eqa of above major league average and above average for cf which was about in the nl last year he has shown at least the potential of going into the s which would make him one of the best hitters in the league he has two full seasons before reaching his prime season of he should be considered as a legitimate prospect and not as a simple side show attraction deion sanders fla int eas nyy int nyy int atl ric atl maj min tot maj min tot clay d
rec.sport.baseball	re giants gm quinn is a genius in article apple apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach wrote mcmath csb nlm nih gov chuck chuck bo buck mcmath writes when the giants protected mike benjamin career average ovre pitcher pat rapp there were surprised looks in the bay area benjamin s stats ab h doubles dingers and rapp s even been sent down to aaa so it s even better than that eh of course the protected list was done by the old regime not the new so this is rosen s baby not quinn s and i ll tell you what let s look at this again at the end of the season and say in three years and see who the genius is one of the more braindead decisions by the oldgiants imho even if benjamin does improve markedly over the past and his hitting is better he s never going to be more than a utility backup if rapp might turn into a top flight arm in another year i think the next time i post something like this i obviously need to make the sarcasm a bit more obvious chuck chuck mcmath mcmath csb nlm nih gov msd inc national library of medicine national institutes of health bethesda md no noose is good noose hey batter hey batter hey batter swing anon this opinion influenced by cosmic radiation
rec.sport.baseball	re reds without sleeves was re new uniforms in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes am i the only person who thinks the reds sleeveless uniforms are ugly yet another reason why they won t win the nl west if uniforms really were a deciding factor in pennant races the pirates would have never won anything those have to be the ugliest uniforms i ve ever seen particular the all yellow set sherri nichols snichols adobe com my vote goes for the indians with their all red uniforms boog powell once said he felt like a big red blood clot rich barry barry ihlpe att com
rec.sport.baseball	re yogi isms in article apr bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes here s an interesting quote from bill veek from get that nigger off the field josh gibson was at minimum two yogi berras speaking of yogi anybody know any good yogi isms mike curious george stultz here s one i remember sort of yogi s asleep in a hotel room late at night and gets a call from someone after he answers the phone the person at the other end asks if he woke yogi up yogi answered no the phone did kevin
rec.sport.baseball	my predictions for since everyone else seems to be running wild with predictions i ve decided to add my own fuel to the fire they might seem a bit normal but there are a few albeit small surprises american league east w l gb new york yankees baltimore orioles toronto blue jays cleveland indians boston red sox milwaukee brewers detroit tigers american league west w l gb minnesota twins kansas city royals texas rangers chicago white sox oakland athletics seattle mariners california angels al mvp kirby puckett al cy young kevin appier al rookie of the year tim salmon al manager of the year buck showalter al comeback player of the year ozzie guillen national league east w l gb st louis cardinals philadelphia phillies montreal expos new york mets chicago cubs pittsburgh pirates florida marlins national league west w l gb atlanta braves cincinnati reds houston astros los angeles dodgers san francisco giants san diego padres colorado rockies nl mvp barry larkin nl cy young john smoltz nl rookie of the year wil cordero nl manager of the year joe torre nl comeback player of the year eric davis nl champions st louis cardinals al champions minnesota twins world champions st louis cardinals the st louis picks are what my heart says what my brain says is they will win the division lose to the braves in the nlcs and the braves will win the series against minnesota but for now i ll stick with the cards all the way kevin
rec.sport.baseball	joe robbie stadium not for baseball did anyone notice the words not for baseball printed on the picture of joe robbie stadium in the opening day season preview section in usa today any reason given for this also i just noticed something looking at the nolan ryan timeline in the preview on rickey henderson became nolan s th strikeout on he pitched his th no hitter against oakland i believe the last out in the game was made by rickey henderson and on nolan pitched his th no hitter on the same day a certain someone stole his th base which overshadowed it it seems that nolan is having a lot of publicity at rickey s expense imo rickey deserves it and it seems as most of the net agrees with me from what i ve seen on it lately they are both great players but imo nolan has outclassed rickey both in playing and more importantly in attitude just my thoughts kevin
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david m tate writes as for rushing if there really is a qualitative difference between the minors and the majors that requires a period of adjustment and i don t believe there is then wouldn t you rather waste lopez s year old good season than his year old very good season or his year old excellent season the sooner you get him acclimated the more of his prime you get to use can anybody name a player who was rushed to the majors let s for argument s sake define rushed as brought up to the majors for more than a cup of coffee prior at age or younger and performing below expectations whose career was damaged by this rushing i m serious i tend to agree with david that bringing the player up sooner is better but i d like to look at players for whom this theory didn t work if there are any i d prefer players within the last years or so because then i can look up their minor league stats it s important to distinguish between players who legitimately had careers below what their minor league numbers would have projected as opposed to players who were hyped and failed but actually had careers not out of line with their minor league numbers let s kick it off with an example of a player who was rushed although there doesn t seem to have been any damage to his career jay bell was given pas in the major leagues at age and performed well below what you would expect from his aaa numbers the same season he got pas the next year at age and still underperformed however the next year at age his performance improved and he won the everyday shortstop job and has been there ever since it s really hard for me to see where he would have been better off staying in the minor league where he was performed quite well in aaa during this time rather than being rushed cleveland might have been better off i suppose because they might have been less likely to give up on him yes if you bring a player up early he s likely going to struggle but does that delay the time at which he stops struggling and starts performing up to expectations sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re cubs game of april th in article apr oucsace cs ohiou edu jclark oucsace cs ohiou edu j michael clark writes otis nixion lined a single to left with two outs breaking up the no hitter cubs win on a hitter by jose guzman that s might be what it takes to beat the braves this year look at smoltz s pitching line hits walks er so and a loss
rec.sport.baseball	players rushed to majors snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes can anybody name a player who was rushed to the majors let s for argument s sake define rushed as brought up to the majors for more than a cup of coffee prior at age or younger and performing below expectations whose career was damaged by this rushing i tend to agree that players are not hurt by early play in the big leagues the braves organization is a fertile ground to test this hypothesis as they had little talent on their roster for some time steve avery for example was rushed to the majors and he fared very poorly during his initial campaign his subsequent pitching has not been affected by his era during his rookie year bill james pointed out that it was relatively unusual to struggle so and then rebound bob horner was also rushed to the majors out of arizona state directly had good numbers immediately i am not certain of the ages of people like pete smith craig mcmurty and derek lilliquist the braves pitching staffs were so bad when they came up that they might have been rushed lilliquist and smith struggled but it didn t hurt ps and dl may have been overhyped i seem to recall cm pitching well initially though i don t have stats handy douglas bone internet bone luciano stanford edu standard disclaimers bitnet bone luciano stanford edu stanford apply uucp ucbvax luciano sierra stanford edu bone
rec.sport.baseball	re rickey henderson in article ls d vinns appserv eng sun com str maredsous eng sun com todd rader writes stay in school you have a lot to learn learn what i know that million dollars is a lot of money i know rickey henderson doesn t have a career out of baseball i know if he didn t have baseball he wouldn t be making near the money he is now i just don t understand how some athlete who only plays a sport for a living for millions of dollars say he is not being paid enough if nobody will sign him for his asking price he will be the one hurting the a s will still win without him remeber many of these athletes have nothing if not for their athletic ability nothing they are getting paid much more than most hard working citizens and they are complaining of not enough pay i don t have a problem with them making millions my problem is when the say they aren t being paid enough when they already get million also their numbers get worse
rec.sport.baseball	angels win the angels won their home opener against the brewers today before at anaheim stadium on a hitter by mark langston j t snow and gary discarcina hit home runs for the angels daniel
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers mss netcom com mark singer said most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their clubs in the bigs those are the arguments against lopez for the braves for this year now the braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid abilities to call games to work with the pitchers to throw out runners this is the crux of the argument to me at least both the sdcn and the non sdcn camps seem to agree on the fact that a catcher s defense is basically nonmeasurable at present you can talk about how important calling a game is or framing the pitches or blocking balls in the dirt but there is little or no way to tell exactly how various catcher s rank in defense looking at lopez specifically is there any reason to suspect that he is a bad defensive catcher other then the fact that the braves or the media has labeled him a bad defensive catcher as far as i can tell he doesn t have any particular problem in his mechanics such as sasser he might be a little rough around the edges in blocking the ball or framing the pitch to get a good call but all he needs to clear that up is playing and practice time i can t see how repetitions at aaa are any better then reps in the majors all we re left with is the calling the game aspect olsen and berryhill at always given credit for calling good games and helping the pitchering staff but this is a reputation that is given to almost all veteran catchers how is catching at aaa going to help lopez learn the major league pitching staff the only way any catcher is going to learn tom glavine s pitches is to catch tom glavine similarly i wouldn t be supprised if the pitcher s claimed to prefer pitching to olsen over pitching to lopez because they are used to pitching to olsen but given time they will say they are comfortable with lopez now since lopez can t learn how to handle the major league pitcher s while he s in aaa and since he doesn t have any glaring problem in his mechanics what is he going to learn in aaa that he can t learn just as well while in the majors dave dave bonar mebonar lsuvax sncc lsu edu
rec.sport.baseball	re my picks with only one comment in article jfr ra msstate edu jfr ra msstate edu jackie f russell writes psg pitt edu paul s galvanek writes since i did so well last year here s another shot at picking the winners and losers i ll skip the commentary on why i picked who to finish where due to lack of time for flame wars kansas city i think kc has a much better shot at being in the top division than the bottom one word cone should help things tremendously i think you are way off the mark here another word offense makes them my pick for last too well there s also my policy of never picking a buck rodgers team for last florida chicago i dont know if an expansion team has ever finished not last but i think this year might be a first if it hasnt ever happened the cubs are worse the angels were game out of th the athletics and expansion senators finished tied for last the colt s finshed th ahead of the cubs the mets were last the royals finshed th ahead of the white sox the pilots in last the mariners finished th ahead of the athletics in last apparently being an expansion team with a poor a s or chicago team around is a good thing national league west cincinnati houston atlanta argh here is where you are obviously dead wrong not since the yankees of the s and s has a team been so nicely setup as this years and years to come braves i don t think that the all star team will be able to beat this may be an appropriate comparison the yankees finshed nd rd and nd finshing and games out of first in and they also finished second though they were only and games out even great teams can lose that s why they play the season on the other hand i m still picking the braves to go all the way john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman predictions for marlins wins rockies wins and rockies fans will claim that the offense is adequate
rec.sport.baseball	re jim lefebvre is an idiot in article apr bsu ucs bjgood leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i just wanted to let everyone know that i have lost what little respect i have for jim lefebvre after seeing today s cubs game a dishard cub fan if you think that s bad just wait until he tries dunston in the leadoff spot again yes i also wonder if they can win with this manager i never believed managers had that much to do with winning until i saw how much they had to do with losing rick
rec.sport.baseball	re jim lefebvre is an idiot in article c uc bl news cso uiuc edu ada uxa cso uiuc edu driftwood writes i totally agree with each point you made jose viscaino looked like a single a hitter up there who swings on count with maddux pitching and your teams down by a run and you haven t touched the ball all day i also think too much is made of that lefty righty thing watching the cubs games i get the feeling steve stone knows a lot more about what the cubs should be doing than lefebre does harry said it best when he stated after another terrible vizcaino at bat we can t wait til sandberg returns i tell you steve stone is like a prophet he must be making a ton in the boradcoast booth because i can t understand why he s not actually back in the game itself the other day he called sosa s homerun against the sox and claimed the game would be going into extra innings when the score was in the th so yesterday he notices that sosa s ahead in the count against maddux and says this is a fastball situation and sosa will be looking for it but this is also the spot where maddux throws the straight change sure enough sosa gets ahead on it and pops it up to the infield stoney for cubs manager rick
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article mssc qmx netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes now keith mitchell as i recall no stat books handy surprise he jumped from aa to atlanta in he did so well that he was returned to the minors where he didn t do very well at all now his career is in jeopardy so how does he fit in with your point good mle s in aa moved him right to the big club now he s one step away from being traded or moved out of baseball duh methinks you recall wrong mitchell hit close to in atlanta and continued to walk alot after his promotion he was then i think left off the playoff roster and started the next year in the minors where even the braves will tell you he underperformed because he was so mad at going back down he struggled last year no doubt but even the braves blamed part of it on the demotion i d much rather have mitchell than say mark whiten on the cards russ smith i don t know anything about x s but i know about some o george gervin on being an assistant coach
rec.sport.baseball	chris webber chokes after the marvelous time out call by chris webber which resulted in a technical foul since his team had no time outs left perhaps webber will take the place of bill buckner as the master of choke at least this red sox fan hopes so ted when chelsea clinton s secret service agent had to be replaced by an active duty soldier she objected on the grounds that her family dislikes the military krueger gas uug arizona edu
rec.sport.baseball	re designated hitter rule ekdfc ttacs ttu edu david coons the rules say baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each let s keep it that way niepornt phoenix princeton edu david marc nieporent not any more the rules don t say that so that s a pretty dumb argument really my little mind be boggled i don t have a rule book yet so david would you please post the new wording of rule i am mightily curious much thanks wayne hathaway domain wayne ultra com ultra network technologies uucp ames ultra wayne daggett drive phone x san jose ca fax
rec.sport.baseball	camden yards i am fortunate enough to have tickets for an orioles red sox game in baltimore on saturday july st i haven t been to the new park and i was wondering if anyone out there can give me pointers or good tips or anything helpful about the place so that i can enjoy every moment spent there for instance what time do the gates open do we see the orioles take bp when will the red sox take bp anything you can tell me would be appreciated thank you in advance please respond to my e mail address i know it s still three and a half months away but i m psyched sue
rec.sport.baseball	re rickey henderson and michael jackson jack nicholson and bill cosby wouldn t be making near as much money if they weren t entertainers so what s your point actually i could care less what his salary is it has something to do with the fact that we live in america and everyone is entitled to whatever he can legally obtain if sandy alderson and the haas family willingly negotiate a salary of million per year with rickey i couldn t care less but what really gets my goat is the bullshit he spouted in spring training about well sometimes i may not play as hard or might be hurt more often in a place where i m not appreciated this quote was in the chronicle about the second week of camp and strongly suggests that he was going to dog it all year if the ownership didn t kiss his butt and ante up some more money for god s sake rickey you signed a contract years ago now honor it and play say all you want to about steve garvey and believe me i hated him too but at least when he put his signature on a piece of paper he shut his mouth and played hard until the contract was up matt bohnert
rec.sport.baseball	re david wells in article apr iccgcc decnet ab com carrd iccgcc decnet ab com writes has david wells landed with a team yet i d think the tigers with their anemic pitching would grab this guy pronto they did for k jim
rec.sport.baseball	seer stephenson picks the a l east having run completely out of time i ve got to get my prophesies and predictions for the a l out qualifications one of the worse finishes in last year s prediction contest al east baltimore orioles why the orioles well i pondered long and hard and it all came down to this the blue jays are going the wrong direction can t bring myself to pick the yankees milwaukee was a fluke indians aren t ready to contend red sox were bad last year and didn t get any better detroit s pitching will be the new definition of replacement level but you don t really think the orioles will win do you no as a matter of fact i can t see any team in the american league winning either division on paper with the possible exception of the yankees who i hate but some body has to win so i pick the orioles you don t really think that brady anderson is going to repeat do you no i m basing the orioles prediction on the expectation of big years from cal ripken and glenn davis glenn davis that s insane yes so without further ado strong points hoiles ripken some years olson getting rid of billy ripken weak points segui may start valenzuela the original something may be the fifth starter oates puts his best hitters at the bottom of the lineup does anybody else think that might be a calculated maneuver to minimize the effect of a slumping ripken if you can t move ripken out of the spot why not move the rest of the line up would be a good sign glenn davis wins comeback player of the year would be a bad sign in a tight pennant race team trades for pecota obprediction the streak continues harold reynolds leads the team in caught stealing new york yankees strong points abbot key perez could have best pitching in american league boggs should improve on hayes weak points mattingly still considered best hitter the steinbrenner factor the yankees lost to the mets can wholesale changes be far behind never count on rookie pitchers i e wickman millitello to win a division would be a good sign boggs hits over would be a bad sign howe gets arrested again obprediction mattingly won t top a ops toronto blue jays strong points management willing to make big deals management has eerie power to convince other teams its prospects are not suspects olerud guzman alomar weak points the jackson for bell trade has shaken my faith in gillick losing stewart may hurt rotation that s really a bad sign no one in the outfield can get on base pitching is thin behind guzman and ward would be a good sign jack morris considered cy young contender in august would be a bad sign club makes no major deals in august obprediction morris will post better era and whip totals than last year and have a losing record milwaukee brewers strong points pitching staff was exceptional last year weak points molitor gone surhoff at third why eldred can t keep it up would be a good sign listach and eldred play like last year would be bad sign bones plays like last year obprediction surhoff won t finish the year at third cleveland indians strong points baerga belle nagy weak points pitching staff thin losing olin really hurts starts felix fermin would be a good sign bielecki s era is consistent with his atlanta starts would be a bad sign ted power bullpen ace obprediction alomar will be back on the dl by the all star break boston red sox strong points clemens viola clemens detroit clemens weak points most incompetent gm in baseball key free agent signing andre dawson burks is gone hatcher in center would be a good sign rainouts in between clemens starts would be a bad sign clemens on the dl obprediction russell will make sox fans forget reardon interpret that how you will detroit tigers strong points tettleton phillips whitaker weak points if fielder keeps declining he ll be a shortstop this year worst rotation in baseball entirely replaced but not necessarily better this year could be very ugly would be a good sign cecil fielder deserving the mvp would be a bad sign cecil fielder not whining about deserving an mvp obprediction cecil won t lead the league in rbis one more division to go dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re rockies not rookies in c u kr news cso uiuc edu dbl uxa cso uiuc edu daniel brian lake writes you d think that an expansion team would be filled with young ns not guys like murphy galaragga b smith it depends if you can get your old veterans cheap and if they can perform at a higher level than your young talent can now why not the talent develop in the minors while giving the fans some familiar names to cheer if the veterans are gone in a year or two that should be just about right maybe someone should tell those renegade front office people in denver open question which was more important to the expansion clubs the expansion draft or the regular draft they ve had one of each i think dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re cubs behind marlins how gajarsky pilot njin net writes morgan and guzman will have era s run higher than last year and the cubs will be idiots and not pitch harkey as much as hibbard castillo won t be good i think he s a stud pitcher this season so far morgan and guzman helped to lead the cubs at top in era even better than the rotation at atlanta cubs era at while braves at we know it is early in the season we cubs fans have learned how to enjoy the short triumph while it is still there
rec.sport.baseball	re giants gm quinn is a genius in autodesk com trs autodesk com tom schroeder writes nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes during the same time span the braves developed john smoltz tom glavine steve avery david justice ron gant and jeff blauser among others avery i believe came from the phillies jeff blauser avery was the overall pick by the braves behind mark lewis i think in john smoltz came over to the braves from the tigers but was developed by the braves jeff blauser isn t a bad player dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	best record ever in baseball of all teams i believe the cubs have the best record ever in baseball sometime way far back and something admiral steve c liu admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu commander in chief of the security division of the pi club earth chapter president of the earth chapter of the pi club founded april world champions baltimore orioles why not series in the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society the only problem is that the abbreviation is clitoris from the polymorph episode of red dwarf the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings my god man drilling holes through his head is not the answer dr mccoy you know susanna hoffs has a really nice ass comment by m flanagan the pi club creating the largest signatures for the past nine months
rec.sport.baseball	re players rushed to majors i don t know if you could call him rushed but big ben mcdonald didn t much time at all in the minors of course that was because the balls used in aaa had seams too large and gave mcdonald blisters forcing him to go on the dl several times he s done most of his learning here in the majors of course gregg wild thing olson and mike deserved a cy young mussina didn t spend much time in the minors either i read somewhere that pitchers are less likely to need that much time in the minors anyway so maybe that has something to do with it let s go o s why not admiral steve still reliving sept liu admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu commander in chief of the security division of the pi club earth chapter president of the earth chapter of the pi club founded april world champions baltimore orioles why not series in the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society the only problem is that the abbreviation is clitoris from the polymorph episode of red dwarf the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings my god man drilling holes through his head is not the answer dr mccoy you know susanna hoffs has a really nice ass comment by m flanagan the pi club creating the largest signatures for the past nine months
rec.sport.baseball	marlin fans i was watching the dodgers marlins game yesterday and a couple of things impressed me first is that the way the sun was shining in miami it had a summer atmosphere in early spring for baseball in comparison wrigley field in early april still has a wintry look to it with the dead ivy and bundled up fans the second and most important was the fans i like these guys gals i will admit i am a football fan first but i still enjoy baseball it was interesting because most of these fans are only accustomed to the miami dolphins the way they were cheering i thought it was the afc playoffs of course opening day may have a lot to do with it but i really got feeling of electricity that i think is lacking with a lot of baseball fans in other cities baseball certainly needs a charge and i hope these two expansion teams bring back some excitement we ll find out friday how denver bronco fans respond phillies are i better say it now before my opportunity passes by
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns i personally will never forget mike schmidt s home run against the expos in that decided the nl east it was also his career high th another home run that i thought was totally incredible was in the alcs the ca angles had the boston red sox strike away from the pennant until don baylor hit a two strike pitch for a home run that was the most incredible turn of events i have ever seen in baseball the sox later took the pennant away only to have the same thing done to them in the ws against the mets speaking of the mets isn t it strange how the nlcs that year with the astros almost mirrored the nlcs with the phillies the astros have been painfully close twice i must admit
rec.sport.baseball	re florida sucks this talk about the phillies winning the nl east is scary very scary don t get me wrong im a phillies fan but as late as last year they looked helpless the funny thing was they did have a lot of injuries in spring training that basically killed their chances of course don t forget the dykstra wrist injury in the first or second game
rec.sport.baseball	the phillies deja vu after reading my local paper today i found out that the phillies started the season at i am not as old as but i ve heard many talk about the serious choke job the phillies did that season they were ahead of the cardinals by games that season in mid august they managed to lose a bunch from then on and the cardinals took the division games ahead and lost it i hope this season is much different
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article rudyc fr q cl netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes in article c fmxd pm cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma writes reference to history because he certainly didn t have the best season for second basemen in history he probably didn t even have as good a season as alomar last year what do you have some measure like popularity in toronto doesn t count that you are basing this statement on uh yes baerga has a lot of flash but alomar was the better hitter last year batters ba slg obp g ab r h tb b b hr rbi bb so sb cs e baerga c alomar r this is fascinating you say that alomar was the better hitter last year and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that baerga had a better year the only category that i see which shows an advantage for alomar is obp
rec.sport.baseball	tiger stadium gif does anybody have a gif of the tiger stadium seating chart thanks brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com i didn t think i should ve been asked to catch when the temperature was below my age carlton fisk chicago white sox catcher on playing during a degree april ball game
rec.sport.baseball	re the phillies deja vu in article apr cabell vcu edu csc imd cabell vcu edu ian m derby writes after reading my local paper today i found out that the phillies started the season at i am not as old as but i ve heard many talk about the serious choke job the phillies did that season they were ahead of the cardinals by games that season in mid august they managed to lose a bunch from then on and the cardinals took the division games ahead and lost it i hope this season is much different i don t shannon cardinals fan kohl
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir in article apr pts mot com ep dn pts mot com dave naehring x p writes in article adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes every single piece of evidence we can find points to major league baseball being offense defense a run scored is just as important as a run prevented this certainly passes the common sense test for me but is there any statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what percent is fielding i d really like to know btw sherri thanks for the da data i find it fascinating of course a run scored is just as important as a run prevented just as a penny saved is a penny earned enough with the cliches my point is that if the braves starters are able to live up to their potential they won t need much offensive support i realize this is a big if this staff leaves the bosox in the dust there is no legitimate comparison two cy young winners and three other pitchers that most any team in the league would kill to have as their first or second starter it seems to me that when quality pitchers take the mound the other teams score less runs the team that scores the most runs wins this puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs a low scoring game would clearly benefit the braves they should have many low scoring games due to their excellent pitching and below average hitting on the flip side if you had a starting lineup of great offensive players i would be arguing that this team would not need great pitchers they would have an advantage because they could simply outscore their opponent the name of the games is to win even ray knight knows that you do this by putting more runs up on the scoreboard all i m trying to say is that if you assemble the quality pitchers like the braves have the offense doesn t need to be as strong sam dave sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re tigers woof woof david shapiro people can call it a monkey but i felt like shapiro david yale edu i had a piano on my back all winter long shapiro minerva cis yale edu the piano is off my back maybe a trombone will be next stan belinda
rec.sport.baseball	cards mailing list count me interested in a cardinal s mailing list if anyone finds one or starts one please let me know thanks dick detweiler rdetweil hpdmd boi hp com
rec.sport.baseball	re cubs expos roster questions in article apr vmsb is csupomona edu cvadrnlh vmsb is csupomona edu writes today cubs activated p mike harkey from dl whom did they move to make room for harkey also are delino deshields john wetteland of the expos on the dl thanks for anyone who can give me more info ken cal poly pomona wetteland is on the dl effective march or something like that rick
rec.sport.baseball	re tigers a s in article apr sbcs sunysb edu wynblatt sbgrad cs sunysb edu michael wynblatt writes weird thing leading going into the top of the ninth sparky used his ace closer henneman the tigers have relievers and at least were rested available does sparky trust them that little i think he just wanted to get henneman some work because the tigers had days off both the day before and the day after jim
rec.sport.baseball	re phillies sign mark davis does that mean they have to pay his salary didn t they wait for him to clear waivers if not why not davis will be paid by three clubs this year i think the phils are responsbible for about or so they didn t wait for him to clear waivers as three other clubs were also very interested in him a gamble yes oh it will as a royals fan i am skeptical they say he pitched well in winter ball he also pitched well at omaha while with kc he just didn t pitch well or even acceptably when in the majors i don t have his atlanta stats but he must not have impressed them very much either what about the year when he got saves in san diego did he pitch well then ok i know he was awful the next year when he went to kc but still won the cy young too for that year
rec.sport.baseball	re florida sucks in article apr cabell vcu edu csc imd cabell vcu edu ian m derby writes this talk about the phillies winning the nl east is scary very scary don t get me wrong im a phillies fan but as late as last year they looked helpless the funny thing was they did have a lot of injuries in spring training that basically killed their chances of course don t forget the dykstra wrist injury in the first or second game first game first at bat
rec.sport.baseball	re players rushed to majors in article c hq o g p tss com hanson tss com hanson loo writes didn t bob horner go straight from arizona state univ to the atlanta braves i remember he had one great month hitting dingers and then the next i heard he was in japan a month well he did have a short career compared to what one might have expected for such a highly touted prospect due to being injury prone overweight and having no work ethic but he certainly did not suffer from being rushed to the bigs len reed holos software inc voice ext domain lbr holos atl ga usa uucp lbr holos uucp
rec.sport.baseball	sid fernandez i read this morning that sid fernandez left last nights game with stiffness in his shoulder does anyone have any information as to the extent of the injury if indeed there is one or weather the cold air in colorado just got his joints a little stiff thanks for the help ray miller disclaimer cub chopin jpl nasa gov all opinions are strictly my own i once spent a year in philadelphia i think it was on a sunday wcfields
rec.sport.baseball	re yankkes game closer in article apr freenet carleton ca aa freenet carleton ca ralph timmerman writes from aa freenet carleton ca ralph timmerman subject re yankkes game closer date tue apr gmt in a previous article w axe acadiau ca jason walter works says the n y yankees are now one game closer to the a l east pennant they clobbered cleveland on a fine pitching performance by key and two homeruns by tartabull first m l baseball to go out this season and a three run homer by nokes for all of you who didn t pick boggs in your pools tough break he had a couple hits and drove in a couple runs with many more to follow the yanks beat an up and coming team of youngsters in the indians the yankees only need to win more games to get the division go yanks mattingly for g glove and mvp and abbot for cy young jason does that mean we have to read this drivel another times this season please spare us and check you facts before you post ralph timmerman there is no life after baseball aa freenet carleton ca no one says you have to read any of it ralph go play in traffic or take a nap they work for me kevin kerr kkerr mkcase dseg ti com president north texas c programmers users group bbs go yankees go dolphins strolling through cyberspace sniffing the electric wind
rec.sport.baseball	let it be known i would like to make everyone aware that in winning the nl west the atlanta braves did not lead wire to wire through games of the houston astros are percentage points ahead of the unbeatable braves go astros byron t lee a native texan stuck in utah
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for thu apr th mlb standings and scores for thursday april th including yesterday s games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road houston astros won atlanta braves lost san francisco giants lost los angeles dodgers lost colorado rockies lost san diego padres lost cincinnati reds lost national east philadelphia phillies won pittsburgh pirates won st louis cardinals won new york mets won chicago cubs won montreal expos lost florida marlins won american west won lost pct gb last streak home road texas rangers lost california angels won oakland athletics lost seattle mariners won chicago white sox won minnesota twins lost kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox won new york yankees won toronto blue jays lost detroit tigers won cleveland indians lost milwaukee brewers lost baltimore orioles won yesterday s scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league houston baltimore montreal texas pittsburgh seattle san diego toronto chicago cleveland atlanta boston cincinnati california philadelphia milwaukee new york kansas city colorado new york florida minnesota ppd san francisco chicago rain st louis detroit idle los angeles oakland idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	re boog powell was re camden yards in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca mark b says was he better than balboni this borders on blasphemy bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re nl vs al in article apr news yale edu sean garrison says in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu wrote pitchers who are doing well are more likely to be taken out of the game in the nl than they are in the al so it seems to me that the al not the nl promotes pitchers duels bob vesterman on what basis do you make this statement q sean are you serious pitchers are pinch hit for in the nl they are not in the nl if a pitcher is cranking in the al he will stay in the game if he is cranking in the nl he may not especially if it s a pitchers duel and his team needs an extra run bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re ugliest swing in article oasys dt navy mil kiviat oasys dt navy mil brian kiviat says what i think is hotdogish about his ab s is the way he leans out over the plate to watch outside pitches etc this not done to get a better look at the pitch but to make it seem this ball is so far out i need to lean just to get near it so you better call it a ball this is my unbiased opinion of what i see your mileage will vary rickey is agreat player to watch if you forget who he is at the time a lot of batters lean in when pitches come rickey s crouch tends to exaggerate that i think a great player to watch if you forget who he is unbiased hmmm bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re aguilera causes cardiac arrest in article qi dinnemh phakt usc edu wagner phakt usc edu loren wagner writes in article apr bmw mayo edu bergerson mayo edu writes maybe you would rather have ron davis back the truly amazing thing was how many years this bum was the closer for the twins you d have thought they could find somebody better don daybell wagner usc edu going into the ninth with a run lead runs score runners on first and second rd throws there s a drive waaaaaayyyyyyy back puckett to the wall leaps he caught the ball what a catch by kirby twins win and rd gets the save his line ip walks hits and one robbed home run paul
rec.sport.baseball	re kevin rogers rogers is the one batter lefty in the bullpen dusty has also said he trusts rogers to get the final out in a ballgame where beck is unavailable so you might see a couple of saves for kevin then again if any of the regular rotation falters rogers is a possible candidate to start though this would appear less likely now that dave burba did well in an emergency start steven
rec.sport.baseball	torre the worst manager joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball for anyone who didn t see sunday s game with a right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform a left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford a hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea a hitter with no power as a pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring mark whiten he commented how fortunate the cardinals were to get whiten and that whiten would be a regular even though this meant that gilkey would be hurt but torre said he liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does he have to do to start the guy would be starting on most every team in the league furthermore in sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate the replay showed bucky dent the third base coach looking down the line and waving lankford home i can t take this anymore brian a very distressed cardinal fan brian landmann georgia institute of technology internet gt a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	re brien taylor where is he last year brein taylor was in a ball probably at tampa in the florida state league i believe he began this year in aa which is albany hopefully george won t rush him and he ll be allowed to progress at his own rate to aaa and then to the bronx this guy is the real thing jonathan alboum uva
rec.sport.baseball	wfan does any one out there listen to wfan for those of you who do not know what i am talking about it is an all sports radio staion in new york on a clear night the signal reaches up and down the east coast in particular i want to know how len berman and mike lupica s show is i go to school in virginia so i can t listen when there are on during the day just wondering jonathan alboum uva ps did any one see steve sommers on hours last night the chief was on too doing rangers round up it was pretty neat shmoozing s p o r t s on tv
rec.sport.baseball	orioles phillies red sox can someone send me ticket ordering information for the following teams baltimore philadelphia and boston also if you have a home schedule available can you tell me the dates for all home games between july aug and between aug sept and if any of these games are promotion nights or special discount nights thanks ron ps and also who the opponents are for these games do not reply to this account please reply to ronc vnet ibm com ibm canada lab database technology associate development analyst on astelletto tie line internal mail tor
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes and now the not so pleasant surprises tartabull the book on tartabull was keep him healthy and he ll produce well he hasn t done too much so far sure he s hit a few homers but those were all solo shots and he hasn t gotten any of the big rbis that your cleanup man is supposed to give you then again he had a slow start last year once he got off the dl that is and turned into a one man wrecking crew see you in the series alan let s see april th less than at bats and you claim that he hasn t done too much so far cut this guy some slack danny will produce this year it s scary to think just how much he ll produce if he were to stay healthy all year the yanks have a lot going for them this year good starting rotation good bullpen good defense and a good lineup also i like buck showalter frank howard on st is also a good move everything sounds good so far if the yanks stay healthy they have a good chance at winning the pennant this is the most fun i ve had watching the yanks since bobby
rec.sport.baseball	old predictions to laugh at oops i came across this file from last year thought you might enjoy some of these thoughts the predictions were made on the date indicated they are largely out of order june tedward cs cornell edu me what have i done i computed the expected winning percentage for each team from their obp total bases and runs allowed i use the basic rc formula and the pythagorean projection i then compare this with their actual winning percentage all stats through june team obp tb ra w l xwp diff baltimore boston toronto new york milwaukee detroit cleveland minnesota oakland texas chicago california kansas city seattle you all know how things turned out the orioles red sox and yankees all disappeared the jays and tigers continued at essentially the expected pace the brewers and indians cranked in the second half the rangers predictably took a dive that shouldn t have surprised anybody meanwhile as predicted the mariners dropped behind the angels and royals they clearly didn t deserve the record in june the white sox and a s upped their game a bit while the twins dropped off a little but for the most part things were as expected okay so there were a few blatant errors but for a predictive calculation i thought this did pretty well from cavgeoe yalevm ycc yale edu tue mar the braves insert kent mercker into the starting rotation sometime this year bielecki is traded or released lei brandt becomes the fifth starter and the best bullpen in baseball has pena berenguer stanton wohlers freeman and pete smith who spot starts as well hm pete smith made the rotation instead of mercker and bielecki wasn t released until the end of the year i won t comment on the bullpen jeff reardon blauser wins the starting shortstop job outright by the end of may bream goes on the dl and klesko goes on a nice hitting honeymoon a la gregg jefferies in platooning with hunter mitchell wins the center field job a bit later all star break and nixon stays on as a valuable pinch runner lonnie is released unless the braves find a taker in a trade right on blauser wrong on bream and mitchell a bit early on lonnie as with bielecki didn t pick sanders did anybody managers to be fired this year in chronological order fregosi showalter valentine riddoch three of them went right showalter is still around and likely to stick it seems from mattel auto trol com mattel auto trol com tue mar bonds gets traded from bucs for some young talent nope they won the division and so kept him for a shot at the playoffs mets win division well they didn t finish last atlanta repeats in the west got that one right yankees surprise everyone but finish second behind toronto nope dwight gooden wins but is surpassed by saberhagen who wins i guess this is why you picked the mets to win huh roger clemens is injured early in the season tsk tsk not nice to predict something like this strawberry fails to hit even home runs and is often injured due to dodgers drop out of race you got that right and my response from tedward tue mar hmph can tell you are a mets fan do you mind if i make some counter predictions against yours they follow mets come in third behind pittsburgh and montreal okay so the mets finished fifth but i got the pirates and expos right the yankees offense and pitching flounders dropping them to fourth place in the al east boston wins games the division the pennant and the world series first half dead on second half ummm i m a sox fan go easy on me dwight gooden rushes his comeback gets blown out and goes on the dl from may through mid july saberhagen runs a record wfan criticizes the mets for giving away that great talent jefferies who has a solid year in kc so i got my predictions for gooden and saberhagen reversed i was at least close and was right about jefferies though i don t know has wfan criticized the jefferies trade roger clemens wins another cy as well as games close no cigar in article udqceao vpeii li andrew cmu edu al x andrew cmu edu amit likhyani writes excerpts from netnews rec sport baseball apr re nl east smiley trade s cavgeoe yalevm ycc yale ops projected for hojo i will streak naked down forbes avenue if hojo does not muster more than a ops something is wrong with that projection some predictions need no introduction from navarra casbah acns nwu edu mon apr from tedward cs cornell edu do you care to put your prediction down for posterity you predict mark grace will get rbis i say you are out of your mind that is almost impossible for a hr type guy batting behind dawson who kills most of the rallies he doesn t finish why do you say that mark has driven in and last year mark was batting second primarily and it was his worse year average wise since he is batting either rd or th this year i predict he will be back up to his previous standards i think he will be better rbi s is not that much of a stretch sometimes us statheads get lucky grace didn t hit behind dawson the entire season but he also finished with only rbis from nss midway uchicago edu tue may the most ballsy prediction ever mark mcgwire will hit or more hrs this year nope he slowed down and the injury finished him off didn t even reach but a ballsy prediction nonetheless from ecaxron mars lerc nasa gov thu may baltimore will not fade they will not win the division this year but they will finish within five games i find the prospect of two orioles winning each easier to comprehend than that of two sox no offense i think their pitching is about as good as the division has to offer the orioles finished seven games out none of them won though mussina might have had a chance with better relief and more starts nobody else in the division is worth a darn they all finish a minimum of fifteen games out the tribe that s another reason to watch baltimore this year and next they won t waste many of those games against the rest of the division except for the brewers who you probably forgot you were right the rest of the division was thoroughly mediocre the yankees and indians led with wins the red sox trailed with wins none were horrible but four were five or more games below from djohnson cayley uwaterloo ca david johnson date thu aug gmt right that was me i never said the jays were a cinch to clinch it but i said that milwaukee will be more of a threat than baltimore i do think that toronto should win it but after i don t consider anything a cinch unless you have something like a game lead with games to go i do think that the jays have the best talented team in the al east and if we had a good or even average manager we might have a bigger lead right now i also think that the orioles will not play much better than baseball for the rest of the season you win from king cogsci ucsd edu thu nov in article nov cs cornell edu you write indians the first and only season ever prediction the cleveland indians will win or more games next year you were right from stvjas meteor wisc edu fri sep jose rijo will win the cy young award if he is healthy enough to go at least ip who would have thought he would try to steal a base why risk such an injury he had ip but didn t win the cy young maddux surprised all the orioles will win games in at least of the next years probably the last and their pitching staff will have a team era among the best in the al in at least of the next years but not necessarily all the same years as they win this one will take a long time to verify i don t think i want to wait that long but they won games last year and they were fifth in the league in era not a bad start ben mcdonald will not challenge for an era title in the next years nor will he have victories either year by challenge i mean finish among the leaders being among the leaders before the season is done doesn t count he will probably never be the pitcher he was hyped to be but is still a decent starter to have looks like it he wasn t bad last year just too consistent to be an ace so far this year looks like more of the same the phillies will give up many fewer walks if when they get rid of their bullpen coach ryan i am not predicting when or whether they will get rid of him and you will have to give the team a little bit of time to adjust before seeing the radical change they would have a fine pitching staff if they would just steal ray miller away from pittsburg the white sox seem to have the same problem but not as bad i honestly can t say did they get rid of him their bb totals were down last year ricky jordan will have rbi if he starts games hitting in the or or spot in any lineup or the spot in a lineup with very good obp in the hitters this applies for each of the next years i just don t think he s that good billy ripken will never again hit over with ab so far so good i m definitely not waiting to check this one from panix spira cmcl nyu edu fri sep no matter what lou gorman and his scouts say paul quantrill will never ever be an adequate major league starter never i have never seen a starting pitcher who can only strike out per innings at aaa be successful in the majors current plans seem to be to use quantrill in long relief he has a rubber arm and unusual delivery he might be decent in that role from lyle ecn purdue edu sat sep m v p a l frank thomas n l hal morris division winners a l east baltimore orioles a l west chicago white sox a l pennant chicago white sox n l east st louis cardinals n l west cincinatti reds n l pennant cincinatti reds w s champion cincinatti reds wrong on all of the above hal morris and my favorites from tedward sun oct belle will not walk as many as times in belle will hit more hr than he has walks in belle hit hr last year walking times but five of those were intentional okay so i exaggerate but i might have been right from trn strdev jhuapl edu tue mar are the o s going to sign cal of is eli s wallet welded shut outgoing money only wide open for incoming cash my prediction which you may make note of valentine is that eli jacobs will defer any serious negotiations on cal ripken s contract until the season is over eli will give cal every opportunity to have his stats tumble a bit from last year s pace before coming forth with an offer despite claims that op cy was designed to cal s strength my feeling is that the foot left center canyon will cut down on cal s power stats after all it s hard to credibly to offer million year to an all star game mvp al mvp gold glove shortstop baseball deity but it d be a lot easier to offer a similar salary to an obviously declining but above average shortstop who had a career year one full season ago of course if cal does match his numbers then eli is going to be faced with a rather huge and expensive problem how much did cal sign for when did he sign if i remember correctly he got a rather hefty contract despite a weak season and finally from jpalmer uwovax uwo ca thu sep generally because of expansion in there will be a lot of mediocre talent hanging around much of it will not make it as the expansion teams look for younger talent around which to build their teams my specific predictions as of april jim acker and cory snider will be selling aluminum siding snyder is still in sf acker is gone neither charlie kerfeld nor vance lovelace presently in tiger aa but formerly big leaguers will be playing professional ball they aren t in the majors nor will dave rozema who says he s keeping in shape with a hope for another shot with expansion never heard of him shawn hare and jody hurst will be in the major leagues they are outfielders in the tiger minor league system i don t think they are in the majors ron hassey will be a minor league manager with the yankees dunno what happened to him it will be bye bye for balboni if he s still around he s stuck in the minors bo jackson will not be a starter hm with raines out bo looks to get a lot of pt gary huckaby will have moved to alaska permanently they re on the net and dave kirsch will return to canada to live hm thanks for listening valentine
rec.sport.baseball	i ve found the secret why are the red sox in first place eight games into the season they already have two wins each from clemens and viola clemens starts again tonight on three days rest what s up are the sox going with a four man rotation is this why hesketh was used in relief last night hm cheers valentine p s i was wrong the sox have already scored runs in two games this week they should reach without trouble i still think it s a fluke
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir sbp acad drake edu said in article adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes every single piece of evidence we can find points to major league baseball being offense defense a run scored is just as important as a run prevented of course a run scored is just as important as a run prevented just as a penny saved is a penny earned enough with the cliches it s not a cliche and unlike your comments below it s not a tautology it needn t have been true if every pitcher in baseball were essentially the same in quality i e if the variance of pitching ability were much smaller than the variance of batting ability then scoring runs would be much more important than preventing them simply because the ability to actively prevent runs would be much weaker my point is that if the braves starters are able to live up to their potential they won t need much offensive support if that s your point you should have said so what you in fact said was pitching and defense win championships and later pitching is the essence of baseball neither of which says what you are now claiming was your point and neither of which is true it seems to me that when quality pitchers take the mound the other teams score less runs the team that scores the most runs wins and you accuse sherri of mouthing cliches this puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs a low scoring game would clearly benefit the braves it s not clear to me at all that this is true in high scoring games the team with the better offense wins a high percentage of the time in low scoring games the split is essentially regardless of team ability they should have many low scoring games due to their excellent pitching and below average hitting on the flip side if you had a starting lineup of great offensive players i would be arguing that this team would not need great pitchers i thought you said pitching and defense win championships and pitching is the essence of baseball david m tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you a slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series substituting irony for brains bruce klopfenstein said dtate pitt edu david m tate writes of course they left rbis off we re comparing alomar the individual with baerga the individual so only individual stats count i forgot most runs are scored by players stealing home so rbi don t count for anything uh right you also forgot that you can t get an rbi barring a hr with nobody on base what fraction of all runs come on solo hr most runs are scored because there happened to be players on base when the batter did something good i use the phrase happened to be advisedly lots of people have tried to figure out who the players are who have the most ability to turn it up a notch in clutch rbi whatever situations and what they ve found is that there is no evidence that anyone has such an ability to any measurable extent there are no clutch hitters people who tend to do things that would cause an rbi if there were somebody on base end up getting rbis proportional to how many of their teammates obliged by being in position my mistake i agree david m tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you a slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	re spanky released in article apr sei cmu edu wp sei cmu edu william pollak writes deletions spanky isn t very good defensively anymore he s an offensive liability and judging from his outburst this winter after the bucs failed to sign drabek he s a jerk with his head in the sand tommy prince on the other hand can t hit in the paper simmons was citing the case of tom pagnozzi who never hit in the minors or majors but suddenly somehow learned how geez dal must have slipped something into ted s drink sometime comparing prince to pagnozzi offensively is laughable prince has never hit well in the minors and he s now years old i think pagnozzi was not a bad hitter in the minors i ll bring in the numbers tomorrow assuming i don t have another brain cramp and forget he had a very good year at louisville before coming up to the majors as i recall the hype on pagnozzi coming up in the organization was good hit decent fielding when he got to the majors and didn t hit as well as expected not as much playing time he became exhibit in nichols law of catcher defense and got the reputation as an outstanding defensive catcher it s not clear he ever learned to hit his four years with more than ab born july year ab ba slg oba no power less than league average walks peak year when he turned now declining if ted is going to invoke pagnozzi as a model for prince given that prince has underperformed pagnozzi in the minors it s not a rosy picture btw i m still unhappy with moving zeile who had the same reputation coming up in the cardinal organization as pagnozzi except that he was a much much better hitter to rd where he could be an average hitter and a below average fielder instead of a well above average hitter as an average or below average fielding catcher harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory norman ok i used to work for a brewery too but i didn t drink on the job p bavasi on dal maxvill s view that florida can win the nl east in
rec.sport.baseball	re players rushed to majors i missed the original post but aren t the expos rushing alomost their entire team this year i am from montreal and am a fan but geez the expos rank th in salary only the rockies trail and someone at the average age would probably be in first year university corelmark
rec.sport.baseball	re cubs expos roster questions in article b f c de a msu oscs montana edu alird msu oscs montana edu writes in article apr vmsb is csupomona edu cvadrnlh vmsb is csupomona edu writes today cubs activated p mike harkey from dl whom did they move to make room for harkey also are delino deshields john wetteland of the expos on the dl thanks for anyone who can give me more info ken cal poly pomona wetteland is on the dl effective march or something like that rick wetteland comes off the dl on april rd and will be evaluated on the th he is throwing well and without pain on the side deshields is not on the dl he suffered from the chicken pox and lost this is the official total pounds he will be back hopefully next week walker will be back this tonight or tomorrow corelmark from montreal
rec.sport.baseball	re cubs expos roster questions to make room for harkey the cubs sent shawn boskie down to aaa
rec.sport.baseball	re astros are back in article c hhwv cvk austin ibm com marc yogi austin ibm com marc j stephenson writes keeping in line with the pessimists on the net i ll hold off on the astros being all the way back they could indeed contend but that would count on atlanta encountering some unforeseen problems such as injuries or keeping up their early season abysmal hitting while atlanta has the undisputed best starting rotation i feel that their relief staff may be suspect they don t have a real closer although mike stanton saves has been used in that role didn t stanton start off great last year and then falter despite this your point is well taken atlanta doesn t seem to have the same personality as a ny team thus is unlikely to self destruct for houston to take em atlanta needs to suffer some injuries particularly to their starting rotation astros relief corps holding together if doug jones keeps his changeup effective and xavier hernandez can be effective then it s passable there s no reasonable left handed help and the middle relief is iffy tom edens was expected to take over the joe boever setup man role but he s been injured and he was an expansion team acquisition anyway houston thought that boever would demand too much money so they let him go doug jones can lose his touch he went from cleveland s all star closer to the minors in a pretty short span from what i understand boever and murphy were considered expendable by the club houston felt that their positions could be filled by a number of players art doug jones is the key to houston s success he must have another great year for houston to challenge in the nl west lousey spring closer to the minors in a pretty short span right a strong rotation will take the pressure off of the troubling bullpen bit of shakiness at the fifth starter slot but that s basically normal taubensee anthony gonzalez and cedeno fulfilling some hitting potential anthony appears to be about there taubensee s swing looks a lot better this year solid knock against expos last night gonzalez is showing some early power and cedeno still has the loopiest swing this side of tim wallach the unsuspected strength of the lower part of the order has saved the club so far biggio and finley just aren t doing their job of getting on base instead of filling his role as an rbi man bagwell has had to assume biggio and finley s job biggio concerns me since he usually starts the season very strong on a side note are you at all concerned with the rumors concerning next year s uniform there is talk that their road uniform will be blech traditional grey with the word houston written across the chest if i m not mistaken their home uniforms may totally eliminate the color orange shiver mclane s favorite color is red so i m really upset the current unforms are dull and the new ones sound horrible i d like to see the uniform of the mid s return they may not have been pretty but houston had established a long precident of wearing the ugliest uniforms in baseball and i liked it end of the bargain remember two years ago a little relief goes a long way then they could win games but i doubt it i ll project them at wins astros fan since the days of staub morgan jackson aspromonte dierker marc stephenson ibm aws advanced workstations systems austin tx disclaimer the content of this posting is independent of official ibm position internet marc austin ibm com vnet marc at ausvmq ibm t l astros fan since the days of ryan scott smith cruz davis bass hatcher david s schwam university of houston st rp jetson uh edu
rec.sport.baseball	dave kingman for the hall of fame hi baseball fans so what do you say don t you think he deserves it i mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don t we give dave kingman a chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon well in any case i am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today s standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don t belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for a long time big deal let s be a little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something isn t done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan steve
rec.sport.baseball	re seeking moe berg reference info in article c hvfs dw news cis umn edu lsmith deci cs umn edu lance squiddie smith writes in article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes david tate writes also in particular a colleague of mine is looking for any information he can find on moe berg catcher linguist espion of ww any references or anecdotes for that matter would be appreciated moe berg my hero we were just talking about him on monday at the yankee game well there s a book about him that s just been reissued i think the title is moe berg athlete scholar spy by tom sewell and two other people whose names i forget sewell wrote the chapter on berg in danny peary s book cult baseball players this is a good source for some of the more famous anecdotes about berg also excellent is the section on him in bill gilbert s book they also served about baseball during wwii i m told berg s spy activities are mentioned in the recent book heisenberg s war his sister also wrote a book about moe that she self published the title is something like my brother morris berg it s mainly some of her memories and page after page of xerox copies of pictures and letters that moe had saved copies are kinda hard to find but the smith baseball library has one for those in minneapolis we have one here at berg s alma mater class of it s kind of a sour thing she disapproved of the job that sewell et al had done roger
rec.sport.baseball	texas ranger ticket info would someone please give me the address for texas ranger ticket orders thanks very much jim
rec.sport.baseball	re torre the worst manager from another not so distressed but still wondering about a few things cardinal fan in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball he s not the greatest this is true for anyone who didn t see sunday s game i saw it with a right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform a left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers lankford was hurt although the announcer said he told torre he could pinch hit if they needed him to later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford a hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea a hitter with no power as a pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking i wondered the same thing but giving joe the benefit of the doubt i d say he was thinking that lankford is hurt enough that he didn t trust his ability to bat effectively but he wants his speed on the bases so pinch run him alicea i was completely confused about maybe he had a good record hitting against that particular pitcher i don t know anybody got an idea earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring mark whiten he commented how fortunate the cardinals were to get whiten and that whiten would be a regular even though this meant that gilkey would be hurt but torre said he liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does he have to do to start the guy would be starting on most every team in the league well so far i haven t seen much to say whiten shouldn t be playing but it is too bad that gilkey is the odd man out when they play jordan ahead of him that i don t quite understand furthermore in sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate the replay showed bucky dent the third base coach looking down the line and waving lankford home yup i looked for this on the replay too if i m joe torre i m going to have a talk with bucky after the game on that one he s got lankford at third with todd zeile i believe a hot hitter coming up there s no reason to risk giving lankford the go sign in that situation unless he was sure the ball is going to the stands it s his job to watch the play develop he should have known larkin was there to back up a bad throw that seemed inexcusable in my book btw i saw dent do the same thing last year with zeile rounding third and going into a sure out at home in a critical situation on the replay there s dent waving him around it looks like this might be a serious problem the card s weren t good base runners at all last year and i wonder how much of the fault lies in the base coaching i can t take this anymore well i m still hanging in there go redbirds woof woof brian a very distressed cardinal fan brian landmann georgia institute of technology internet gt a prism gatech edu dick detweiler rdetweil hpdmd boi hp com
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame in article apr news yale edu steve tomassi writes honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don t belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for a long time big deal are you for real how many gold gloves does ozzie smith have if a guy hung around and hit homers a year for years wouldn t he be a given for the hall is defense not just as important and if robin yount couldn t hit why would he have stuck around long enough to get hits are you saying hits is a fluke hits is no big deal let s be a little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something isn t done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to i agree garvey and morris don t deserve it the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan well based on your argument nolan ryan doesn t deserve the hall of fame he is just a right hander who stuck around for a long time and could throw hard very few game winning seasons lots of losing seasons lots of walks no cy young awards how does nolan ryan compare to a guy like steve carlton who dominated or major league seasons won divisons world series and won half of his teams games in he doesn t compare not even close kirby puckett hasn t done it long enough for me give me more seasons like he s been having then i ll think about it
rec.sport.baseball	re wfan in article apr virginia edu jja h virginia edu writes does any one out there listen to wfan for those of you who do not know what i am talking about it is an all sports radio staion in new york on a clear night the signal reaches up and down the east coast in particular i want to know how len berman and mike lupica s show is i go to school in virginia so i can t listen when there are on during the day just wondering the fan is an okay sports radio station but doesn t come close to the ultimate in sports radio wip in philadelphia the signal might not be as powerful but then again only stations in new york feel obligated to pollute everyone else s airwaves with a bunch of hoodlum mets fans complaining hours a day wip took two of your best sports jockeys too jody macdonald and steve fredericks wip is rockin with sports talk from am till midnight check it out anytime your within a few hours of philadelphia if i m not mistaken wip has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation rob p s the only nice thing about the fan is that they talk sports all night hopefully will begin to do that somewhat soon
rec.sport.baseball	re expanded nl strike zone was re a surfeit of offense it was my impression watching the mets rockies that umpires were calling strikes above the belt too but not as far up as the letters it would be nice if this were the case jay
rec.sport.baseball	fenway gif i was wondering if anyone had any kind of fenway park gif i would appreciate it if someone could send me one thanks in advance dan
rec.sport.baseball	re harry caray last night bill veeck cam to me in my dreams and this is what he said cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs scuk cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs cuck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck oh yeah he aqlso added that harry is a drunken idiot who shoulda stayed in st louis where his heart is but also added that fair weathered fans all like to be together i guess this is the reason harry is now a cub fan bud man note he never really left st louis jim walker go sox cubs suck
rec.sport.baseball	re old predictions to laugh at in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes oops i came across this file from last year thought you might enjoy some of these thoughts the predictions were made on the date indicated they are largely out of order much crap deleted managers to be fired this year in chronological order fregosi showalter valentine riddoch three of them went right showalter is still around and likely to stick it seems dead wrong last time i checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite a fine job thank you best record in baseball at my prediction for jim fregosi will win manager of the year in the nl don t flame me flame the bum who thinks he got fired last year pay attention kiddo
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame steve tomassi writes hi baseball fans so what do you say don t you think he deserves it i mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don t we give dave kingman a chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon well in any case i am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today s standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don t belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for a long time big deal let s be a little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something isn t done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan q steve what s the difference between nolan ryan and yount both have hung around for years and continue to post great stats why shouldn t dave kingman get into the hall or murray evens reardon and others what the hell do you have to do ask an opposing pitcher whether he thinks that winfield should be in the hall god pretty soon you ll be saying that cal ripken doesn t deserve to be in the hall then i ll flame you chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart c quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand
rec.sport.baseball	re players rushed to majors in article apr holos uucp lbr holos uucp len reed writes in article c hq o g p tss com hanson tss com hanson loo writes didn t bob horner go straight from arizona state univ to the atlanta braves i remember he had one great month hitting dingers and then the next i heard he was in japan a month well he did have a short career compared to what one might have expected for such a highly touted prospect due to being injury prone overweight and having no work ethic but he certainly did not suffer from being rushed to the bigs sorry len this is exactly how he suffered from being rushed to the bigs being overweight and having no work ethic leading to being injury prone with nothing to loose might have been corrected in richmond did you intend a smiley after your comment this brings back the long suffering memories of pre chop braves fans who kept being promised the bob horner dale murphy back to back power slam who could stop that guess we ll never know p s rocky fans are there any yet is dale getting any playing time out there i plan to be at the game on june th they ll have to play him then read that to memory and process it russell earnest georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs seismo ut ngp gatech prism re arpa russell earnest housing gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	phillies mailing list anyone know of a phillies mailing list out there they don t get much coverage up here in grand rapids mi sob elaborate signature files are for people who aren t as busy as i am dh david hollebeek dholle ursa calvin edu
rec.sport.baseball	re do people want stats in article hpfcso fc hp com dougs hpfcso fc hp com doug steele wri tes this is a top posting for the al home runs hits batter team hrs batter team hits gonzalez tex baerga cle palmer tex phillips det did anyone think that texas would have the top two home run leaders at a given point in the season and neither one would be jose canseco steve steve casburn scasburn magnus acs ohio state edu i personally despair of results from anything but violent and ruthless truth telling that will work in the end even if slowly john maynard keynes
rec.sport.baseball	re white sox update i think lamont is tryin sax out in left because he is messing with his mind he is trying to stir loose the mental block that he has had sax was supposed to play in left last night but we were rained out it s not like we need to add any more outfielders to our team it s mental jimmy go sox cubs suck that s the white sox dontcha know
rec.sport.baseball	re cubs expos roster questions in article apr pavo concordia ca m klein pavo concordia ca corelmark wrote in article b f c de a msu oscs montana edu alird msu oscs montana edu writes in article apr vmsb is csupomona edu cvadrnlh vmsb is csupomona edu writes today cubs activated p mike harkey from dl whom did they move to make room for harkey also are delino deshields john wetteland of the expos on the dl thanks for anyone who can give me more info ken cal poly pomona wetteland is on the dl effective march or something like that rick the cubs sent boskie to iowa to make room for harkey jeff eastman jaeastman anl gov
rec.sport.baseball	re seeking moe berg reference info in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes i seem to have misplaced the baseball bibliography that was posted here recently that s what happens when you have to split a heap of disorganized files from one machine among two others could some kind soul repost the bibliography or mail me a copy also in particular a colleague of mine is looking for any information he can find on moe berg catcher linguist espion of ww any references or anecdotes for that matter would be appreciated dave i believe si had an in depth article on moe a while ago i remember that the article revealed some new facts regarding the secretive moe my si subscription expired this past february the second of two years that i received same therefore my guess is that the article appeared sometime in can anyone else be more definitive as to a date of the si article jerry
rec.sport.baseball	re the phillies deja vu in article apr cabell vcu edu csc imd cabell vcu edu ian m derby writes after reading my local paper today i found out that the phillies started the season at i am not as old as but i ve heard many talk about the serious choke job the phillies did that season they were ahead of the cardinals by games that season in mid august they managed to lose a bunch from then on and the cardinals took the division games ahead and lost it i hope this season is much different strictly from memory i think the phillies were something like ten games up with to go lost in a row and of last to lose to the cardinals seems impossible but thats how i remember it i also felt at the time that johnny callison of the phillies lost the mvp as a by product of their swoon jerry p s in a single team out of won the pennant no divisions
rec.sport.baseball	re orioles trivia in article apr hpcvaac cv hp com paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen writes in article apr galileo cc rochester edu sparky balsa lle rochester edu michael mueller writes hi all does anyone know who were the pitchers for the orioles that were referred to as the kiddy corp because they were so young steve barber chuck estrada jack fisher milt pappas this list brings to mind possible the worst trade since babe for nono nannette i e milt pappas for frank robinson i think in robinson proceeded to win the triple crown in and may have beaten out yaz in but was injured on a slide into second when he collided with the mighty al weis chisox jerry
rec.sport.baseball	dumb fans was re indians woofing in article bcc ee ohstpy mps ohio state edu letizia ohstpy mps ohio state edu writes do you mean just like reds fans have you listened to wlw anytime they open up the lines for fans to call talk about clueless idiots the broadcasters are just as bad too jl the new york talk shows are just awful in this regard people are constantly calling wfan and wabc with stuff like i was thinking why don t the yankees trade kaminicki and silvestri to seattle for ken griffey jr and randy johnson that would really help the team or do you think the yankees can get roger clemens the show hosts are pretty good about handling these guys but it s still annoying the best one was at the end of one show a caller started out with i was thinking why don t the yankees trade for and then the host hung up on him i cheered michael
rec.sport.baseball	re tigers in article rk vsanu miamiu bitnet ryan kearns rk vsanu miamiu bitnet writes i think that the detroit tigers are the greatest baseball organization of all time shameless woofing deleted on behalf of the rest of us tiger fans out here i appoligize for this shameless woofing we try to keep it to a minimum but we did win a game the other day so sometimes it s hard to control see phillies fans michael
rec.sport.baseball	missing subject header in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball for anyone who didn t see sunday s game with a right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform a left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers that s because lankford had a minor injury from a couple of games before that and was day to day only available as a pinchrunner later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford a hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea a hitter with no power as a pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking see above earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring mark whiten he commented how fortunate the cardinals were to get whiten and that whiten would be a regular even though this meant that gilkey would be hurt but torre said he liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does he have to do to start the guy would be starting on most every team in the league at the beginning of the interview torre also said lankford is the one outfield guy who s in there no matter what my guess is jordan will eventually end up being odd man out due to low on base percentage whiten was a great acquisition decent offense and great defense in rightfield but don t worry gilkey will be starting as soon as jordan or whiten displays an extended period of low offensive output
rec.sport.baseball	re dean palmer hurt edward ouellette edo casbah acns nwu edu wrote i think dean got hit by a pitched ball the other night he got pinch hit for and didn t play against baltimore tonight whats up with that is he hurt please tell me he s not he evidentally got hit in the elbow by a fernando pitch his arm swelled from the elbow to the wrist or something like that they took x rays of the arm and there is nothing damaged he missed the last game with the orioles but he is suppose to be ready for the next game hope this helps mike west west esd dl nec com
rec.sport.baseball	scoring runs was re notes on jays vs indians series in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes uh right you also forgot that you can t get an rbi barring a hr with nobody on base what fraction of all runs come on solo hr actually for the padres this year so far it s they are th in the league in hrs and all have been solo shots pythagorean projection puts them at winning percentage or need some pitching help fast good news though is that hurst has been throwing curveballs w o any pain threw pitches yesterday should be back in a couple of weeks maybe we can trade him to the yankees for militello dave dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ucsd cs demers la jolla ca or fax
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes some pleasant and then some not so pleasant surprises about the edition of the bronx bombers so far first the pleasant spike owen all through spring training this guy was looking like the second coming of mike gallego but with even worse hitting now the guy is third in the major leagues in ba and he s ranked pretty high in total hits and runs scored i know it s still early in the season but he and pat kelly more on him in a minute have provided a lot of spark at the bottom of the order that s given the big guys mattingly tartabull o neill plenty of rbi opportunities let s hope he keeps this up pat kelly the guy is finally showing some of the ability that led stick michael to label him a star for the s i wouldn t go that far but kelly looks infinitely improved at bat i guess the tips he took from boggs in spring training really paid off huh and here i thought boggs would never do anything to help anybody besides himself and his glove like always has been terrific he and mattingly comprise the best defensive right side of the infield in all of baseball imho paul o neill we had to get rid of roberto kelly partly because he was under too much pressure in ny to be the next barry bonds he won t do that in cincy either and partly because he had this real unprofessional tendency to give up in the second half of the year i just felt that we could ve gotten more for him than o neill well so far o neill is turning out just fine he looks like he should be able to duplicate if not surpass mel hall s numbers from last year and he keeps opposing pitchers from pitching around tartabull now if only buck would play him against lefties some more to see what he can do wickman a friend made a comparison between wickman and jack morris they never have impressive stats but they always find some way to win although morris seems to be losing that ability i figured that wickman would be the least important part of the steve sax trade best trade since we got that ruth guy maybe winding up as a good middle reliever but i like what i ve seen so far he doesn t pitch pretty but he gets the job done key what s going on here key was just supposed to provide the rotation with some stability you know shore up the left side provide experience get maybe wins and here this guy is dominating everybody he faces who needs maddux or cone i ll take key any day and now the not so pleasant surprises spike owen sure he s hitting like crazy but the guy cannot field to save his life and they said he was brought in to provide defense velarde stankiewicz and even silvestri are better defensively than owen remember it s still early look for his offense to tail off and his defense to improve hopefully he has that rep because i heard that either last year or over the last years or something like that he has the third highest fielding percentage among major league shortstops behind c r and tony i m not gonna help this sorry mets team at all fernandez i do agree though that he has not looked all that impressive in the field thus far tartabull the book on tartabull was keep him healthy and he ll produce well he hasn t done too much so far sure he s hit a few homers but those were all solo shots and he hasn t gotten any of the big rbis that your cleanup man is supposed to give you then again he had a slow start last year once he got off the dl that is and turned into a one man wrecking crew late in the year so we ll see the bullpen ugh what happened we were supposed to have one of the most solid pens in the majors meanwhile the pen has already blown three saves maybe more i haven t checked the great howe farr lefty righty tandem farr s era is in the s or s and howe s is infinite i didn t think such a thing was possible but it is hopefully they ll get their acts together or else buck s gonna burn out the starters for fear that the bullpen ll blow a lead in the immortal words of the scooter holy cow seaver that johnny key guy can pitch can t he see you in the series alan
rec.sport.baseball	re torre the worst manager in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball brian a very distressed cardinal fan no hal mcrae is the worst manager in baseball i ve never seen a guy who can waste talent like he can one of the best raw talent staffs in the league and he s still finding a way to lose i ll be surprised if he makes it through the next weeks unless drastic improvement is made an even more frustrated royals fan darin j keener dak s vma smsu edu
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame in article c jbse kkk news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert c hite writes are you for real how many gold gloves does ozzie smith have if a guy hung around and hit homers a year for years wouldn t he be a given for the hall is defense not just as important frankly no offense and defense are equally important but the pitcher is of the defense the primary role of every other player is on offense even shortstops are a bigger part of the offensive game than of the defensive game they might not do much with their part of the offense but that s another issue that being said i think both smith and yount deserve the hof they hit pretty well in addition to their defense cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re the phillies deja vu jerry sheldev shel isc br com gerald lanza writes p s in a single team out of won the pennant no divisions make that ten not eight the mets and astros joined the n l in eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci
rec.sport.baseball	re old predictions to laugh at in article c jcrf krm news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert c hite writes dead wrong last time i checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite a fine job thank you best record in baseball at look asshole i got him confused with somebody else i didn t flame you and i would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy no i don t know everything in the world does that surprise you valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article qkkodinn f jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo a iglesias writes in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help hank greenberg would have to be the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season or was it world series games because of yom kippur the other jewish hof er is rod carew who converted lowenstein is jewish as well as montana s only representative to the major leagues undeserving cy young award winner steve stone is jewish between stone koufax ken holtzman might have the wrong pitcher i m thinking of the one who threw a no hitter in both the al and nl and big ed reulbach that s quite a starting rotation moe berg can catch harry steinfeldt the b in the tinkers evers chance infield is stanky jewish or is that just a dave cohen kinda misinterpretation whatever doesn t look like he stuck around the majors too long ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
rec.sport.baseball	re i ve found the secret in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes why are the red sox in first place eight games into the season they already have two wins each from clemens and viola clemens starts again tonight on three days rest what s up are the sox going with a four man rotation is this why hesketh was used in relief last night clemens is going on his normal four days rest last pitched saturday hesketh only pitched one inning yesterday afternoon his first outing since an aborted inning start days before so he should be plenty rested to go in his expected turn this saturday as the th starter not that this is a good thing of course i d like to see a well managed four man rotation with this team glenn waugaman digital equipment corporation littleton ma g waugaman nac enet dec com
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and it s stankiewicz not stankowitz and he s not jewish he s polish by the way the correct pronunciation according to stanky himself is ston kev itch all the sportscasters get it wrong maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help the only other jewish ballplayer i can think of is ron blomberg who is best known as being the first dh to appear in a major league ballgame alan
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help hank greenberg sid gordon ron blomberg guess it goes from the sublime to the ridiculous
rec.sport.baseball	re old predictions to laugh at edward ted fischer writes robert c hite writes dead wrong last time i checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite a fine job thank you best record in baseball at look asshole i got him confused with somebody else i didn t flame you and i would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy what is your problem hite s post wasn t a flame it was a correction of your error your reply was a flame no i don t know everything in the world does that surprise you not in the least steve novak ban the bomb ban the pope steven advtech uswest com
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article apr pts mot com ep dn pts mot com writes this certainly passes the common sense test for me but is there any statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what percent is fielding not yet i wish there were it s much more difficult to tease these apart than to tease apart scoring runs and preventing runs and thus we come to one of the true beauties of baseball these things along with many others will never be separated almost everything in baseball is situational and interdependent this is what allows us to carry on all the arguments that we have if everything could be explained and balanced on a statistical basis none of the wonder and mystery would be left why we might have to resort to just going out the ballyard and enjoy the game itself paul feeling a little anti stathead today we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or a sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	re a true story way to go omar in article apr esca com vigil esca com sandra vigil writes yesterday april th a friend and i were discussing the theory put forth by a local sports radio station personality that the commissioner less baseball owners had snuck a live ball into this years baseball games in an effort to increase home run numbers and attract fans it s always possible but if this is the case i think that there is some blatant discrimination going on here clearly selig is allowing the opposition to use pre baseballs against the dodgers well guess who stepped up to the plate for his first career grand slam last night against the jays none other than my boy it was truly a sight to behold and almost more impressive was that he also got an intentional walk we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or a sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it s the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label my understanding was that ted turner owner of the braves started running his tv station nationwide and started running all of his team s games on his nationwide tv station he dubbed his team america s team that is the only team at least at the time all of whose games could be seen across america now wor is nationwide out of beautiful secaucus but not all mets games are on wor wgn chicago and wsbk boston are two other superstations at least they are on the east coast i don t know how many cubs sox sox games they show hymie hymowitz cs jhu edu i ll be mellow when i m dead weird al yankovic you get your mellow laid back attitude from sonny the cuckoo bird josh about me
rec.sport.baseball	re super tough baseball trivia in article apr ncar ucar edu amj rsf atd ucar edu anthony michael jivoin writes in the bruce springsteen video glory days from the born in the usa album they show two quick shots of a baseball game on television in the bar bruce and the e street band are playing name the teams which stadium who is the pitcher what two batters go down swinging also at the end of the video bruce is throwing at a wooden strike zone and his last pitch a young boy lines a base hit into center as bruce and the kid walk of the field the kid asks him how he did today bruce mentions the team he was playing and that a certain player got him in the bottom of the ninth name the player and the team sandiego and graig nettles if anyone gets these i ll be impressed anthony m jivoin national center for atmospheric research rsf atd fl p o box boulder co
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for sat apr th mlb standings and scores for satruday april th including yesterday s games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros won atlanta braves lost los angeles dodgers won colorado rockies lost san diego padres won cincinnati reds lost national east philadelphia phillies lost pittsburgh pirates lost st louis cardinals lost new york mets won chicago cubs won montreal expos won florida marlins lost american west won lost pct gb last streak home road texas rangers lost california angels lost chicago white sox won minnesota twins won oakland athletics lost seattle mariners lost kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox lost new york yankees won detroit tigers won toronto blue jays lost cleveland indians won baltimore orioles won milwaukee brewers lost yesterday s scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league new york mets chicago white sox cincinnati reds boston red sox florida marlins california angels houston astros baltimore orioles philadelphia phillies kansas city royals chicago cubs minnesota twins colorado rockies seattle mariners montreal expos detroit tigers pittsburgh pirates toronto blue jays los angeles dodgers cleveland indians atlanta braves texas rangers san francisco giants new york yankees st louis cardinals oakland athletics ppd san diego padres milwaukee brewers rain joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes there is a book that you can find in sale catalogues occasionally called jewish baseball stars and baseball mavin peter bjarkman has compiled a pretty definitive list of jewish ballplayers in the bigs i wish i hadn t sold my copy of jewish baseball stars it s a short shelf i e the one on top of the toilet tank special the writing in that books is so astonishingly awful every sportswriting cliche taken to the nth degree and then mangled that it s funny rusinow is the author i think roger
rec.sport.baseball	re phills vs pirates i hate to be the burden of bad news but i think i will this time the phillies usually play at either p m or p m eastern time for weekdays on sundays the time is usually p m eastern time boise is in idaho idaho is in part of the mountain time zone and in part of the pacific time zone the times that were given were for mountain time zone starts please check a map in case i am wrong but i am certain that boise is in the mountain time zone thanks for listening the shep
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish broadcasters was jewish baseball players in article c mu z hh unix amherst edu ddsokol unix amherst edu d daniel sokol writes roger lustig roger crux princeton edu wrote in article apr acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes in article c l zs n world std com eastgate world std com mark bernstein writes for that matter how many gentleman of the press box have been jewish the only jewish sportscaster that comes to mind is steve williams who had a phillies show on kyw in philadelphia in the s howard cosell is one who comes to mind gee d ya think len berman s jewish how about steve stone of wgn who does the cubs we already got him under pitchers overrated jewish or tony korhiezer and shirly povich maury s dad of the washington post probably is shirley p still alive just wondering roger danny
rec.sport.baseball	re let s talk phillies in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article apr leland stanford edu eechen leland stanford edu emery ethan chen writes one phrase for you you thanks perhaps it s time to start rec sport baseball graffiti where the kiddies can go yell taunts and insults at each other and leave the rest of us in peace sherri nichols snichols adobe com well sherri i d agree with you except that most kiddies have more sense than to spew their obscenities in front of a group of adults i try to edit this newsgroup and feed it to one of the local elementary schools they have a group of students that just love baseball and are learning to use computers but i m telling you it s gotten to the point that i don t even edit the files anymore just read them and throw out the trash and thanks to all you people that think it s wonderful to include a swear word or two in your signature files that s really nice i have to read the whole article and then toss it out because of the sig don t get me wrong i know all the words you do and i ve even made up some of my own or i wouldn t be able to edit them out but this just doesn t seem to be the place a public forum to spew foul language sorry thanks to all you people that keep in mind there might be some decent young people interested in baseball and computers reading this newsgroup they enjoy your articles phil
rec.sport.baseball	re what s with all these scores in article qp m innfjg senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes in article apr news yale edu sean garrison writes stuff about upated inning scores deleted at just that exact time to see the message even results after the game is over are not necessary thanks to mr hernandez who posts daily standings and results here every day am i supposed to take that as a compliment or a put down just wondering i do this as a service to the entire baseball world on usenet especially for those in the east coast who can t get final scores for west coast games in their newspapers or late tv newscasts this is helpful to fans in other countries who either receive only weekly scores or updates by the week also many have requested for this kind of service previously but it was only available through bbs s or some pay news services by the way mine is free of charge and has no copyright restrictions if you want to send updates and scores set up a private mailing list and use that remember i only post final scores and the updated standings once a day to the rec sport baseball newsgroup other than that everything is done through private e mail currently there are people on my mailing list that branches off into other mailing lists available for many others and the list grows by an average of people a day if people on usenet really don t want to see the postings i do to rec sport baseball on a daily basis please just let me know if the response is overwhelming against the posts i won t do it anymore thanks for your time joseph hernandez joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it s the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label probably because everyone that is everyone who has cable can watch every braves game they are the only team that has all of its games broadcast nationwide and if you don t like your local team or you don t have a local team the braves can kind of become your local team because you can watch them every day i m outta here like vladimir alan what s this this is ice this is what happens to water when it gets too cold this this is kent this is what happens to people when they get too sexually frustrated val kilmer real genius
rec.sport.baseball	sandberg update won t be long now hi all you ryno fans and those interested todays chicago tribune had this written in it today in regards to ryne sandberg ryne sandberg is ahead of schedule in his recovery from a broken left hand and could be back in the lineup by may manager jim lefebvre said friday doctors cleared sandberg to swing a padded bat at a ball in his gloved hand i m not surprised his rehabilitation has been moved up said lefebvre he s a fast healer and he doesn t like being on the disabled list he s been running since he was hurt march and is in the best shape of his life may is his target date for getting back in the lineup hold on to your hats cub fans more later as information presents itself jeffery
rec.sport.baseball	how to keep score like the officials hello all i d like to learn how to keep score when i watch ball games using official scoring methods where can i get scoresheets and instructions on how to use them i appreciate it mike hofstadter s law it always takes michael wilson longer than you think even if you idoy crux cit cornell edu take into account hofstadter s law douglas hofstadter
rec.sport.baseball	ryno correction i made a mistake on the posted article been fighting food poisoning for last hours the second paragraph should state the following doctors cleared sandberg to swing a padded bat at a ball on a tee and to catch a ball in his gloved hand sorry for the error didn t know it until after posting jeffery
rec.sport.baseball	re defensive averages shortstop in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard s is the second highest year ever still very good but i don t like the way his numbers have declined every year in a few years may be a defensive liability that s rich ozzie smith a defensive liability brett rogers addison leland stanford edu
rec.sport.baseball	re surgery for hal morris and then cjkuo symantec com jimmy kuo quoth does it strike anyone else how silly it is to impose a game suspension on morris let s see i expect to be back june th how many games do we play before june th take me off the dl games before june th it would be a lot more meaningful if the suspension went into effect some number of games after he came back well either way the reds have to play a man down for days jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants e i pi the most beautiful equation in mathematics magic for all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these number it might have been john greenleaf whittier
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well my guess is because america loves underdogs every year no matter the cubs talent or the predictions they never as close to never as possible win anything over the years as the losing has mounted america has fallen in love with these perennial losers the cubs have more fans in chicago then some teams do worldwide the cubs have more fans worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined an aura of excitement surrounds the cubs at the beginning of the season like no one else including the ws champs it must be that eternal hope actually i admired the spirit of the fan at the cubs opener several years ago who held up a sign that said wait till next year eric smith he threatened me if it was a president of the erics netcom com united states you d investigate what s the erics infoserv com difference i m a comedian of the united states ci jerry seinfeld
rec.sport.baseball	re royals in randall moose randall informix com randall rhea writes the royals are darkness they are the void of our time when they play shame descends upon the land like a cold front from canada they are a humiliation to all who have lived and all who shall ever live they are utterly and completely doomed other than that i guess they re ok oh lighten up what depresses me is that they might actually finish last which i believe hasn t happened since their second season in never mind that gubizca is with a era gardner at our main recent acquisitions lind mcreynolds jose are averaging david cone is about how he was doing in kc before joining the mets several years ago our hitting sucks and our pitching has collapsed and we ve won one game at home they ve won more games in their first ten games than last year and brian mcrae is actually batting over the mendoza line rich
rec.sport.baseball	re defensive averages shortstop in article apr leland stanford edu addison leland stanford edu brett rogers writes in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard s is the second highest year ever still very good but i don t like the way his numbers have declined every year in a few years may be a defensive liability that s rich ozzie smith a defensive liability why not brooks robinson is a defensive liability too and ted williams is a weak hitter even great players decline as they age valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re tribune times in article c c ja amb unix amherst edu ddsokol unix amherst edu d daniel sokol writes pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu wrote is the chicago tribune baseball coverage any good does the new york times have daily coverage boxscores i don t know about the tribune but the times has daily coverage and boxscores of course they have special emphasis on the yankees and mets beware the original poster looks to be from louisville and chances are louisville gets the edition of the nytimes that is printed in chicago for the midwest this edition has boxscores only on monday and sunday and an extremely skimpy sports section few game summaries mostly just color stories bradley w brock department of mathematics rose hulman institute of technology resist not evil love your enemies brock nextwork rose hulman edu some nazarene carpenter
rec.sport.baseball	ozzie smith a defensive liability in article apr leland stanford edu addison leland stanford edu brett rogers writes in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard s is the second highest year ever still very good but i don t like the way his numbers have declined every year in a few years may be a defensive liability that s rich ozzie smith a defensive liability why do you expect him to remain the best shortstop in the game until he reaches his seventy third birthday or something why is it such a strange concept that a forty one year old ozzie smith might be a defensive liability in ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
rec.sport.baseball	re phills vs pirates mlb m pit phi monday pittsburg at philadelphia pm tuesday pittsburg at philadelphia pm wednesday pittsburg at philadelphia pm friday philadelphia at pittsburg pm saturday philadelphia at pittsburg pm sunday philadelphia at pittsburg am friday pittsburg at philadelphia pm saturday pittsburg at philadelphia pm sunday pittsburg at philadelphia am monday philadelphia at pittsburg pm tuesday philadelphia at pittsburg pm wednesday philadelphia at pittsburg pm thursday philadelphia at pittsburg pm are these times correct they seem as if they are hrs ahead of the usual tiems for these two teams the origin of that first message was boise which is on central time p tierney whoops i meant mountain time p tierney
rec.sport.baseball	re defensive averages shortstop in article apr leland stanford edu addison leland stanford edu brett rogers writes in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard s is the second highest year ever still very good but i don t like the way his numbers have declined every year in a few years may be a defensive liability that s rich ozzie smith a defensive liability why do you suppose he s immune to the ravages of time he s in a few years he ll be he doesn t get to as many grounders as he used to and will get to fewer still as his legs go as they do on every human so far remember willie mays was a defensive liability at he end of his career too ditto mickey mantle ditto just about everyone else who played into their late s roger brett rogers addison leland stanford edu
rec.sport.baseball	re what s with all these scores in article qplh e g agate berkeley edu jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez writes in article qp m innfjg senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes in article apr news yale edu sean garrison writes stuff about upated inning scores deleted at just that exact time to see the message even results after the game is over are not necessary thanks to mr hernandez who posts daily standings and results here every day am i supposed to take that as a compliment or a put down just wondering it was meant entirely as a compliment i do this as a service to the entire baseball world on usenet especially for those in the east coast who can t get final scores for west coast games in their newspapers or late tv newscasts this is helpful to fans in other countries who either receive only weekly scores or updates by the week also many have requested for this kind of service previously but it was only available through bbs s or some pay news services by the way mine is free of charge and has no copyright restrictions i was not trying to criticize your service at all in fact i was trying to encourage others to use it i don t personally use it but i m sure others do and that was my point in posting there is no need for individuals to duplicate in an ad hoc fashion what you have already organized if you want to send updates and scores set up a private mailing list and use that remember i only post final scores and the updated standings once a day to the rec sport baseball newsgroup other than that everything is done through private e mail currently there are people on my mailing list that branches off into other mailing lists available for many others and the list grows by an average of people a day having one person such as yourself who does it is a great idea having do it is not that s all keep up the good work joseph charles
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it s the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label there is no team repeat no team that is america s team this is a diverse country with mlb teams up north and there is no one team that is america s who would the other teams belong to and how does it happen well teams receive this monicker through success cowboys national exposure cubs or both braves it spreas aby successful advertising campaigns harry caray ted turner amd other dupe people into thinking that their representative teams are hip so that people will watch them on tv and buy their products arrogant local fans adapt the monicker and think that their team is the one that america idolize it comes down to dollars and egos p tierney
rec.sport.baseball	re kevin rogers hpcc rec sport baseball pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu pm apr what s up with kevin rogers of san francisco i thought he was slated to be the fifth starter but he s only gotten a few relief appearences are they going with four starters for now or is someone else the fifth thanks p tierney giant s have a five man rotation of john burkett trevor wilson bill swift jeff brantley and bud black dave burba black has been put on the day disables and dave burba will take his starts
rec.sport.baseball	mel hall has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season i d heard he wasn t with the yankees any more what happened to him doug dolven doug dolven warped cs montana edu gdd trex oscs montana edu
rec.sport.baseball	re the mets are rapists writes in the new book about the mets it talks about how they like to rape little girls before games sick jerks max is this the book by bob klapisch spelling the worst team money can buy if it is i wouldn t give the book or anything in it any value whatsoever klapisch wrote the book to make money obviously and sensational literature is going to sell a lot better than what he usually writes for the papers i m not calling him a liar but if there was any proof that a met player had raped a little girl before a game let alone doing it on a regular basis they would be in jail not shea for those people who do not know what the press is like in new york it is probably more cut throat than in just about any other part of the u s keith hernandez said it very well on espn a couple of days ago they would much rather mention a clubhouse fight than a two run homer in the ninth to win a game i do not read klapisch s news columns regularly but i do know that he has been accused before as being an instigator that enjoys hopefully for only professional reasons to drumb up a news story even if there isn t one there now as far as the confrontation with bobby bonilla a few days ago i almost totally blame bonilla no matter what a member of the press does and no matter how much of a putrid individual he might be that does not give a ballplayer the right to threaten a journalist personally i always thought that a beat writer that always follows a club around should report the news but not be looking to degrade a team i don t know whether to blame klapisch because that may be the only way to keep a job in new york
rec.sport.baseball	re mel hall warped cs montana edu writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season i d heard he wasn t with the yankees any more what happened to him doug dolven japan i think
rec.sport.baseball	re mel hall in article apr coe montana edu warped cs montana edu doug dolven writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season i d heard he wasn t with the yankees any more what happened to him doug dolven doug dolven warped cs montana edu gdd trex oscs montana edu mel hall signed with a japanese team mike mike columbia edu
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir in article c l c lc murdoch acc virginia edu david robert walker writes in article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes one also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning with the split probably somewhere around and i d give baserunning a little more credit than that maybe or even give a team of roberto alomar and a team of john oleruds identical batting stats which wouldn t be that unreasonable and even if you don t let roberto steal a single base they ll score a lot more than the oleruds by going first to third more often no offense gordon i wouldn t give baserunning that much value the above effect is clear but there are other effects as well if olerud hits a double any runner on first will score if alomar legs an extra base onto a hit in the gap the runner on first may need to hold at third thus olerud s doubles have more advancement value than alomar s of course alomar is more likely to score after hitting a double another reason not to give too much extra value to baserunning is that the runs created formulas work for very fast and very slow teams no team in the s ran much but some teams certainly had faster players than others still the current runs created formulas work just as well in the s for all teams bill james gives the senators as an example they used harmon killebrew regularly as a pinch runner and in stole bases with times caught stealing yet they scored slightly more runs than predicted by runs created david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer i speak for no one and no one speaks for me
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame in article mssc k w gqe netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes i m no kingman fan just thought i d point out that he s the only player in history to have five three hr games joe carter has four eddie murray three mccovey and gehrig also three ruth mays foxx and dawson two each johnny mize had six three hr games which is the current record bob holt rjh allegra att com
rec.sport.baseball	re fenway gif i d love to see a shea stadium gif sean behind the bag vin scully
rec.sport.baseball	re what s with all these scores in article qplh e g agate berkeley edu jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez wrote if people on usenet really don t want to see the postings i do to rec sport baseball on a daily basis please just let me know if the response is overwhelming against the posts i won t do it anymore thanks for your time joseph hernandez mr hernandez i apologize for the misunderstanding i explained that i know that it is essential for some fans to get scores here for they cannot get them elsewhere i have no problem with what you do posting scores after the games have been completed however like i said earlier i don t think it is a necessity to post scores during the middle of games like some others have come to practice sean
rec.sport.baseball	re all time best players in article apr ns cc lehigh edu jsr ns cc lehigh edu john stephen randolph writes in article apr bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i ve recently been working on project to determine the greatest players at their respective postions my sources are total baseball james historical abstract the ballplayers biography word of mouth and my own biased opinions feel free to comment suggest flame whatever but i tried to be as objective as possible using statistical data not inlcuded for time convience s sake i judged on rel ba adj ops total average fielding range runs total player rating total baseball stolen bases for curiosity s sake tpr g and years played mvp b mike schmidt ed matthews one t in eddie mathews george brett wade boggs ron santo brooks robinson frank baker darrell evans pie traynor ray dandridge how can brooks be i think he would at least be ahead of ron santo because a small advantage in fielding ability comes nowhere near making up for the large difference in hitting their average seasons using their combined average ab bb per games years ab h r b b hr rbi tb bb avg obp slg ops santo robinson fielding we have per games at third years p a dp e pct santo robinson even if robinson s extra putouts assists and dps are taken to mean he was responsible for more outs in the field that doesn t make up for the extra outs he made at the plate not to mention the fewer total bases the difference of in ops should be decreased by about to account for wrigley but a difference is still considerable the thorn palmer ratings are adjusted adjusted stolen fielding total production batting runs base runs runs rating santo robinson usual disclaimers about t p s fr apply but they really shouldn t be way off the mark in this comparison at least it s better than fielding percentage carney lansford has a th best all time but fr dead last of all time also since this total rating compares players to league average instead of replacement level robinson should be awarded an extra or so for playing more games he had a great career but i would prefer santo s plus years of a replacement level bman but i would knock traynor off the list and replace him by stan hack that s a similar story hack s far better hitting outweighs traynor s superior fielding graig nettles and buddy bell would also be better choices imho of course though some recent net discussion supports this point of view cf andre dawson shouldn t that be right field bob holt rjh allegra att com
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir grabiner math harvard edu david grabiner writes in article c l c lc murdoch acc virginia edu david robert walker writes in article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes one also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning with the split probably somewhere around and i d give baserunning a little more credit than that maybe or even give a team of roberto alomar and a team of john oleruds identical batting stats which wouldn t be that unreasonable and even if you don t let roberto steal a single base they ll score a lot more than the oleruds by going first to third more often no offense gordon i wouldn t give baserunning that much value i meant to comment on this at the time there s just no way baserunning could be that important if it was runs created wouldn t be nearly as accurate as it is runs created is usually about accurate on a team level and there s a lot more than baserunning that has to account for the remaining percent greg
rec.sport.baseball	hits stolen second base disclaimer this is for fun in my computerized baseball game i keep track of a category called stolen hits defined as a play made that an average fielder would not make with average effort using the defensive averages posted by sherri nichols thanks sherri i ve figured out some defensive stats for the second basemen hits stolen have been redefined as plays kurt stillwell would not have made ok i realize that s unfair kurt s probably the victim of pitching staff fluke shots and a monster park factor but let s put it this way if we replaced every second baseman in the nl with someone with kurt s out making ability how many extra hits would go by to try and correlate it to reality a little more i ve calculated net hits stolen based on the number of outs made compared to what a league average fielder would make by the same method i ve calculated net double plays and net extra bases doubles and triples let by finally i throw all this into a a formula i call defensive contribution or dcon basically it represents the defensive contribution of a player i add this number to ops to get dops defense onbase plus slug which should represent the player s total contribution to the team so don t take it too seriously the formula for dcon appears at the end of this article the short version definition of terms hs hits stolen extra outs compared to kurt stillwell nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared to average fielder ndp net double plays extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared to avg fielder dcon defensive contribution bases and hits prevented as a rate dops dcon ops quick dirty measure of player s total contribution national league name hs nhs ndp neb dcon dops alicea l sandberg r thompson r lind j doran b deshields d harris l lemke m morandini m randolph w biggio c stillwell k ordered by dops sandberg alicea thompson deshields doran nl average biggio harris randolph morandini lemke lind stillwell american league name hs nhs ndp neb dcon dops fletcher s reed j ripken b baerga c blankenship l miller k alomar r knoblauch c bordick m kelly p whitaker l reynolds h sax s sojo l order by dops baerga alomar fletcher whitaker blankenship miller knoblauch reed bordick al average kelly ripken reynolds sojo sax more discussion dcon formula nhs ndp pa nhs ndp neb ab why such a bizzare formula basically it s designed to be added into the ops with the idea that a run prevented is as important as a run scored the extra outs are factored into obp while the extra bases removed are factored into slg that s why i used pa and ab as the divisors for more discussion see the post on hits stolen first base dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re old predictions to laugh at steve novak writes edward ted fischer writes robert c hite writes dead wrong last time i checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite a fine job thank you best record in baseball at look asshole i got him confused with somebody else i didn t flame you and i would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy what is your problem hite s post wasn t a flame it was a correction of your error that last was me steve novak i ve since read the entire original posting by hite mr fischer was actually restrained let mr hite hope he never makes some similar tiny mistake steve novak ban the bomb ban the pope steven advtech uswest com
rec.sport.baseball	re mel hall in article apr coe montana edu warped cs montana edu doug dolven writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season i d heard he wasn t with the yankees any more what happened to him doug dolven mel is alive and well and playing in japan the yanks let him go because he was asking for too much money and because they thought that they were going to get barry bonds making hall obsolete oopsie well at least they got o neill to replace the mel man i m outta here like vladimir alan scene from real genius where val kilmer is trying to pick up a gorgeous blonde val so if there s anything i can do for you or more to the point to you you just let me know blonde can you hammer a six inch spike through a board with your penis val not right now no blonde a girl s gotta have her standards she walks away
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris as of today april jack morris has lost his first three starts however the jays are doing well without him and injured dave stuart this is a credit to the rest of the pitching staff has jack lost a bit of his edge what is the worst start jack morris has had
rec.sport.baseball	re dodgers take straight from pirates in article qqob innqev mizar usc edu pcaster mizar usc edu dodger writes davis and strawberry attributed their turn arounds to reggie smith the dodger batting coach who flew in from florida three days ago and gave them a pep talk and some instruction davis was yesterday and had a couple more hits today strawberry had two hits yesterday and i believe he had two more today with two home runs foolish me and here i thought it had something to do with the fact that they were hitting against wakefield who had no kncukle to his ball that day and otto who has no stuff i wonder if reggie gave the same pep talk and instruction to the rest of the lineup who also suddenly came alive those two games the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	official rules of baseball isbn i am trying to get a copy of the official rules of baseball someone once sent me the isbn number of it but i have since lost it can anyone give me this information or tell me where i can find the book none of my local bookstores have it i m walking home from school and i m watching jack mckinney some men building a new house and the guy ham jmckinney tamu edu mering on the roof calls me a paranoid little weirdo in morse code this space emo philips for rent
rec.sport.baseball	re nl vs al doug roberts ken hill for nl mvp let s go spos
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes in article apr husc harvard edu fry zariski harvard edu david fry writes once on jeopardy the category was jewish sports heros believe it or not the answer was this pitcher had four no hitters with the dodgers in the s the contestant said who is hank aaron alex trebek said something like i don t think hank aaron was a pitcher well it is a jewish name roger that s right remember hank greenberg
rec.sport.baseball	re mel hall in article apr coe montana edu warped cs montana edu doug dolven writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season i d heard he wasn t with the yankees any more what happened to him he is in japan playing baseball tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu
rec.sport.baseball	re sandberg runs rbis was re notes on jays vs indians series in article c jqby m a news rich bnr ca bratt crchh a nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game flame away john bratt ok you asked for it i guess that doesn t bode well for the cubs then does it doug roberts willing to trade frank bolick for a bag of used baseballs let s go expos
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it s the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label unoffically but without a doubt america s team is the cubs why well my guess is because america loves underdogs every year no matter the cubs talent or the predictions they never as close to never as possible win anything over the years as the losing has mounted america has fallen in love with these perennial losers the cubs have more fans in chicago then some teams do worldwide the cubs have more fans worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined an aura of excitement surrounds the cubs at the beginning of the season like no one else including the ws champs it must be that eternal hope this is the year they ve got the talent they re off to a good start they ve got the pitching or hitting or whatever their strong point is at the time it s that inevitability that the cubs will eventually win the ws again when only god knows since it s been so long it could come at any time or it could be another years but until they do finally win and start winning consistently the cubs will remain america s lovable underdogs the cubs are america s team orin bradley u the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs i root for the cubs because i feel sorry for them but basically they are dogs the pirates today are a great example of an underdog if the rockies and marlins compete they will be underdogs the north stars trip to the stanley cup finals was a good example of an underdog s journey the cubs have a good team this year and play in a weak division they are much less than america s team i m really a jester in disguise chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart c quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand
rec.sport.baseball	tigers pound mariners were they palying football or baseball in detroit on saturday from looking at the school some people may think it was football between two games this week the tigers scored runs the offense can carry them i hope the pitching will hold out i was at camden yards yesterday everytime i looked up the score was getting higher what a great site it was to see the tigers kicking butt while enjoying a game at camden yards go tigers and go tony phillips
rec.sport.baseball	scott erickson does anyone have the scoop on scot erickson how long is he going to be out for
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but it is virtually impossible to win a division with no talent over games i would amend your definition to underdog a team expected to lose but which wins thanks to underestimated talent dave
rec.sport.baseball	bosox win again the team record is today frank viola and rest of pitcher staff of boston red sox shutout chicago white sox it is red sox th win of this season so far red sox won all the games roger and frank v pitched and when other three starters were pitching tomorrow dopson will pitch again have a good first start and rocky second start i wonder that bosox can play over ball without roger and frank v
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players dave kingman is jewish bob comarow eisner decus org
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in a previous article steinman me utoronto ca david steinman says cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but it is virtually impossible to win a division with no talent over games i would amend your definition to underdog a team expected to lose but which wins thanks to underestimated talent dave ok the mets and o s are good examples but what about the reds do you really think that anyone expected them to sweep the a s i know people who didn t even think they d win a game let alone win the series we proved them wrong though didn t we as for this year ignore their record now they ve had a rocky start and that has nothing to do with colorado they shall rise again the hunt for a reds october continues with all due respect to wlw bye michelson spring olympics champions road rally legged race rope pull snarf penny wars banner spirit cheer the michelson menace rides again don t you just love that intense nationalistic feeling in a residence hall
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in article c hpcv hl andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes guess which line is which ba obp slg ab h b b hr bb x y i just love how the alomar fans left rbis off this list give me a break a little delayed but in the interests of fairness stats from elias ba obp slg r hr rbi rni outs alomar baerga so we see that baerga has a large advantage in rbi runs batted in rni runners not driven in and outs john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu
rec.sport.baseball	baseball spreads how does one read the betting spreads for baseball they tend to be something like which means it must not be runs thanks david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder
rec.sport.baseball	rockies need some relief once again the rockies bullpen fell apart andy ashby pitched six somewhat shaky innings giving up just one run then game the dreaded relief three picthers combined to give up runs one each i believe in the th inning and blew the save opportunity final was vs expos despite their problems in the pen i think the rockies are a team that wont be taken lightly going into today s game the had the league s leading hitter and rbi man galarraga two of the leaders in stolen bases young and cole and increasingly strong starting pitching david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder
rec.sport.baseball	re rockies need some relief in article apr colorado edu davewood bruno cs colorado edu david rex wood writes shaky innings giving up just one run then game the dreaded relief three picthers combined to give up runs one each i believe in the th inning be taken lightly going into today s game the had the league s leading geez can i type or what david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder
rec.sport.baseball	re baseball spreads in article apr colorado edu davewood bruno cs colorado edu david rex wood writes how does one read the betting spreads for baseball they tend to be something like which means it must not be runs that spread means you bet on the underdog to win or on the favorite to win charles
rec.sport.baseball	re bosox win again the team record is in article jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes today frank viola and rest of pitcher staff of boston red sox shutout chicago white sox it is red sox th win of this season so far red sox won all the games roger and frank v pitched and when other three starters were pitching tomorrow dopson will pitch again have a good first start and rocky second start i wonder that bosox can play over ball without roger and frank v as long as the yankees are in the same division the red sox will play better than baseball or the red sox can hire former east german swimming coaches to train them at the fine art of body building the red sox can use chinese women swimmers as a reference with the hawk the red sox definitely have a chance for the east this year he brings class work ethic and leadership to the park each day and he has a burning desire to play in the world series future hall of famer andre dawson will kick butt in boston from rockies country anthony m jivoin national center for atmospheric research rsf atd fl p o box boulder co
rec.sport.baseball	re royals in article spork camelot spork camelot bradley edu richard izzo writes b s about darkness deleted oh lighten up what depresses me is that they might actually finish last which i believe hasn t happened since their second season in nope the royals are the only team in the majors that have not finished in last place of course this doesn t include the marlins and the rockies but they have a good chance at finishing last also rich
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in a previous article tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer says in article qr cinnpel skeena ucs ubc ca stlouis unixg ubc ca phill st louis writes jack morris starts have been like his playoff starts he has an era of in his starts what does luck have to do with a era he was lucky to get wins last year but he had an era of with a team that scored a lot of runs i would be happy if he could still pitch with an era of but he seems to be suffering from a total callapse bad pitchers are more prone to this total collapse than good pitchers they are closer to the chasm of mediocrity the smallest push and they completely lose their grip but good ones can collapse somewhat then come back the next year burleigh grimes went from wins and an era of or so in to and an era around in he pitched well for several more years carlton won and lost the year after his record source bill james historical baseball abstract and let s not forget john tudor who started and finished in he had a pretty bad era when you take busch stadium into account at the start of the season he gave up early runs in his games and would get stronger as the game went on thus giving up few runs in the last going he stays in the game and gets the win how else would he have pitched so many innings yup he used to dig himself a hole then get it together and stick in until the run support eventually came through this year he just hasn t gotten it together if i recall he had a era in the st half and a era in the nd half of last year hmmm runs in innings suppose he starts more games and winds up w innings pitched if he allows runs a game in the next innings he ll have a era or so at the end of the year i think i have his totals right this is going to be hard to come back from jack may be finished it is time to retire or be released if he does not return to his form from last year his million contract is an awful lot to eat my st hunch is that morris is very gutsy and that he may be pitching through an injury and not telling anyone my nd guess is that he will be banished to the bullpen the remainder of the season after a few more starts perhaps when stewart comes off the dl or will danny cox who went or scoreless innings against the tribe today start for morris he looks like a really good one gaston is scrambling to find starters i d imagine luckily the jays have a very good offense i don t think they would dare release him before the end of the year he ll just be replaced by stewart or cox doug fowler dxf po cwru edu me age now mommys and daddys other ever wonder if after casey relatives have to give lots of hugs love missed the rd strike in the poem support cause heaven is just a great he ran to first and made it big hug that lasts forever and ever
rec.sport.baseball	reds snap game losing streak redreport kevin mitchell s sacrifice fly in the eighth off brett saberhagen plated pitch runner cesar hernandez to give the reds a come from behind victory over new york hernandez ran for pinch hitter cecil espy who got the inning started with a solid single to right moved to second on bob kelly s infield sneaker down the third base line and to third on jeff branson s well placed bunt a rare show of excellent execution by the recently hapless reds offense cincinnati trailed after starter tim pugh blinked in the fifth he had only given up one hit in the first four innings a fourth inning lead off double by vince coleman coleman was left stranded at third by bobby bonilla after joe orselak popped to short orselak was pinch hitting for eddie murray who argued plate umpire kellogg s inside strike by drawing the line really he should know better than that murray and later manager jeff torborg ended up getting tossed the mets fifth started with a howard johnson s first pitch homer pugh must have been slightly shaken as he was popped on the next pitch by jeff kent s single then a ryan thompson liner to left was surprise misplayed by mitchell and turned into a rbi triple catcher hundley s grounder to the drawn in branson failed to bring thompson in then the play of the game occured saberhagen was due up so reds pitching coach larry rothschild met with the infield to discuss the possibility of a suicide squeeze they called it perfectly thompson was hung out to dry after pugh s first pitch pitch out and the threat ended isn t the national league great the reds picked up runs in the seventh to knot up the game after barry larkin s ground out mitchell chris sabo and randy milligan got back to back to back singles the third scoring mitchell reggie sanders then plated sabo with a long fly to center a double by oliver might have scored runner dan wilson but third base coach dave bristol threw up the stop sign too late wilson himself was hung out to dry killing the reds rally rob dibble came on in the ninth and pitched shakily with two outs and a runner on second bonilla came to the plate and all i could think of was the sunday game in late august last year when bonilla s three run dinger slapped a loss on dibble and spelled the beginning of the end for cinci s season bonilla ended up walking and hojo flied out to left to give the reds their first win in a week and earned dibble his third save in as many opportunities the win went to steve foster who got in what must be an ego boosting two perfect innings work striking out three saberhagen got the loss though i m a bit surprised he even pitched in the eighth i ll take it though the reds are now still the worst team in baseball with the royals victory today the mets are the line new york mets ab r h k bb lo coleman lf fernandez ss murray b orselak ph rf bonilla rf b johnson b kent b thompson cf hundley c saberhagen p totals hr johnson off pugh leading off fifth pitch b thompson off pugh in fifth out rbi picked off b coleman off pugh in fourth out on stranded at third rbi johnson thompson cincinnati reds ab r h k bb lo kelly cf branson b larkin ss mitchell lf dibble p sabo b milligan b wilson pr c sanders rf oliver c b pugh p roberts ph foster p espy ph hernandez pr lf totals oliver was stranded in the seventh after his double when wilson was run down b oliver off saberhagen out runner on first stranded rbi milligan sanders and mitchell sac branson sf sanders and mitchell ibb larkin gdp larkin new york cincinnati x pitching ip r er h k bb new york saberhagen l cincinnati pugh foster w dibble s pb wilson ejected murray torborg umps kellogg relliford runge demuth attendance t coming up the reds travel to pittsburgh for three then continue on into chicago for three next game is tuesday at expected to pitch are belcher vs tomlin rstimets
rec.sport.baseball	dimensional teams was re royals final run total in a previous article sweda css itd umich edu sean sweda says i ve been saying this for quite some time but being absent from the net for a while i figured i d stick my neck out a bit the royals will set the record for fewest runs scored by an al team since the inception of the dh rule p s any ideas what this is they will fall easily short of runs that s for damn sure i can t believe these media fools picking them to win the division like our tom gage of the detroit news claiming herk robinson is some kind of genius for the trades aquisitions he s made would you say the same thing about the dodgers in or true cone is probably as good as drysdale and they have no koufax but still these teams were winning with home run leaders who had very bad totals with lots of low scoring games etc and they didn t use relievers whereas jeff montgomery is having a super season for them that being said i still picked them th or so but i think a superb pitching team can win if they have enough hitting there s more of a chance of that i think than of a team with tremendous hitting but no pitching at least to me i wonder though which one do you people think would do better a team with johnson koufax in his prime seaver carlton and young in no real order as the starters with sutter fingers and lyle in the bullpen but with a puny offense assuming good defense like mazeroski maranville etc or a team with poor pitching but with an offense of cobb carew ruth gehrig mays schmidt wagner and bench again you pick the order i would postulate that the pitching one would be several games better by seasons end even the best hitters can succeed only of the time in their best years but a great pitcher can throw lots of shutouts taking all the players in their prime they might throw shutouts in a year and all the offense would have to do is get run across i wonder if someone with stratomatic or something could plug such all time teams into a regular season have it played and report the results i would love to see that doug fowler dxf po cwru edu me age now mommys and daddys other ever wonder if after casey relatives have to give lots of hugs love missed the rd strike in the poem support cause heaven is just a great he ran to first and made it big hug that lasts forever and ever
rec.sport.baseball	re early bbddd returns in article apr news cs brandeis edu st pip cc brandeis edu adam levin writes just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the bb ddd this year a concerned fan of the bb ddd i am hoping to produce the first update of the bb ddd this week please send info about the most significant longest most critical etc home run that you have seen yet this season vince
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it s the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label unoffically but without a doubt america s team is the cubs why orin bradley u i m really a jester in disguise sorry but i saw a survey somewhere that showed that america s favorite team is the damn yankees so much for the underdogs being loved obbaseball trivia cardinals have taken out of series from the yanks but have a losing record against them spring training games not counted shannon
rec.sport.baseball	montreal question what position does mike lansing play i cannot seem to find it anywhere thanks k keith j mullins o o p s c ooo ooo internet plymouth nh it takes a big man to cry but k mullin oz plymouth edu
rec.sport.baseball	detroit tigers the roar at michigan and trumbull should be loader than ever this year with mike illitch at the head and ernie harwell back at the booth the tiger bats will bang this summer already they have scored runs in two games and with fielder tettleton and deer i think they can win the division no pitching bull gully moore wells and krueger make up a decent staff that will keep the team into many games then there is henneman to close it out watch out boston toronto and baltimore the motor city kittys are back
rec.sport.baseball	three homer games and padres notes to all those out there wondering about who holds the record for three homer games ina career the answer is johnny mize in his career with the cards and the yanks he hit three times i am almost sure about this in case anyone is wondering the record for two homer games is held by babe ruth and is mize s record may not last for much longer because of juan gonzalez he has at least three games with three and maybe i know that he had at least two last year and one as a rookie i don t have any record books at college for me to check on though please let me know okay if i am wrong onto the padres is there anyone out there who follows them especial ly those with access to local news i don t here anything in los angeles and i can t get mcpaper consistently around here comment it looks as though san diego has gotten the better of the two deals that brought bell and plantier to the padres it has also forced the team to use darrell shermann of course plantier could get injured again or he could hit with the power of but with a lower average bell always could finish with and hrs essentially jerald clark s numbers leadoff comment craig shipley i get on base of the time if i m lucky at leadoff hell of the usual starters use gwynn he s got steals already is shipley starting because of an injury to stillwell though i haven t seen stillwell s name in any box scores anyway unless you are going to use shermann at leadoff then use gwynn he at lesat gets on base and this year is stealing bases sheffield comment though the season is early and stats mean nothing witness phillips batting currently but does sheffield have an injury or anythingelse wrong with him i just don t hear anything andy benes is he pitching like he did in the second half of or is this a flash of promise that he throws out evrey now and then has anyone seen him pitch the two good games score for today sunday april padres st louis padres sweep the cardinals as gwynn goes for with a homer sheffield and tueful also homer in a winning cause thanks for listening reading any comments kelly keach kkeach pomona claremont edu
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in article c p xq gui me utoronto ca steinman me utoronto ca david steinman writes cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but it is virtually impossible to win a division with no talent over games well with players certainly however it is quite possible to win it all with no managerial talent cf blue jays david david shapiro people can call it a monkey but i felt like shapiro david yale edu i had a piano on my back all winter long shapiro minerva cis yale edu the piano is off my back maybe a trombone will be next stan belinda
rec.sport.baseball	request for al stats anyone have the al individual stats or where i can find them k
rec.sport.baseball	re montreal question in article apr oz plymouth edu k mullin oz plymouth edu mully writes what position does mike lansing play i cannot seem to find it anywhere thanks currently he s all over he played nd when deshields was out he was shifted to third when delino came back and today he played ss for a cold wil cordero his natural positions seem to be in the middle infield but they will seemingly find a spot for himm somewhere as long as his bat is hot p tierney
rec.sport.baseball	re detroit tigers david vergolini writes the roar at michigan and trumbull should be loader than ever this year with mike illitch at the head and ernie harwell back at the booth the tiger bats will bang this summer already they have scored runs in two games and with fielder tettleton and deer i think they can win the division no pitching bull gully moore wells and krueger make up a decent staff that will keep the team into many games yeah if the tigers can keep scoring runs a game if i m reading all this woofing correctly one midseason slump is going to pull this team out of contention like yogi says i ll believe when i believe it david j dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it s on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real e mail me for the
rec.sport.baseball	re detroit tigers in article qt f o o msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes the roar at michigan and trumbull should be loader than ever this year with mike illitch at the head and ernie harwell back at the booth the tiger bats will bang this summer already they have scored runs in two games and with fielder tettleton and deer i think they can win the division no pitching bull gully moore wells and krueger make up a decent staff that will keep the team into many games then there is henneman to close it out watch out boston toronto and baltimore the motor city kittys are back nice woofing or should i say meowing and yes the tiggers are a fun exciting team that i would pay to see but last year they went this year their offense is essentially the same and their pitching is at best essentially the same so why do you think they will suddenly improve to win the or so games which will be required to win the a l east what has changed that i don t see remember a win is worth as much in the standings as a win charles
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira writes howard wong mindlink bc ca howard wong writes has jack lost a bit of his edge what is the worst start jack morris has had uh jack lost his edge about years ago and has had only one above average year in the last again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky you can count on good tomorrow lucky seems to be prone to bad starts and a bad finish last year yes i am enjoying every last run he gives up who was it who said morris was a better signing than viola cheers valentine hey valentine i don t see boston with any world series rings on their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future therefore i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing and don t tell me boston will win this year they won t even be in the top in the division more like th shawn
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in article c p yr gh news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples uh i don t think you can call a team with tom seaver jerry koosman and nolan ryan on the pitching staff a team that has no talent they did come out of nowhere but some of the improvement was forseeable greg
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in qsk d dck usenet ins cwru edu jdl po cwru edu justin d lowe writes in a previous article steinman me utoronto ca david steinman says cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but it is virtually impossible to win a division with no talent over games i would amend your definition to underdog a team expected to lose but which wins thanks to underestimated talent dave ok the mets and o s are good examples but what about the reds do you really think that anyone expected them to sweep the a s i know people who didn t even think they d win a game let alone win the series these people were very silly any team that gets to the world series can win the world series and anybody who ever expects a sweep is crazy if you put the best team in baseball in the series against the worst team in baseball the worst team would win at least a game most of the time and very well could win the series though the odds would certainly be against them greg
rec.sport.baseball	zane rescue us from simmons so far simmons looks like a total idiot zane smith should learn how to switchpitch and return from the dl i would rather have zane smith pitch right handed than have moeller pitch at all i am sure simmons was ready to say i told you so after otto had an impressive win last week now otto s latest debacle has restored simmon s reputation now he looks like he is back in his form when he had the al s highest era among starters four our sake not ted s sake i hope he pitches with a era for the rest of the season yeah right tomlin and merced are a bit disappointing they are still doing decently but considering the considerable amount of talent and maturity they have shown their first seasons they seem to have actually gotten a little bit worse tomlin was almost unhittable his rookie year against lefty batters merced had a very good oba his rookie year he showed a lot of concentration at the plate in his rookie year walk well he seems to be on the losing end tonight but i still think that walk desrved his contract leyland should accept a part of the blame for the lavalliere situation i can t understand his and management s fear of losing tom prince through waivers even if they do what s the use he is aright hander like slaught not a very smart platoon also i am blaming leyland in this case since he is hcurrently convinced that lavalliere is through while giving him way too much time last year in the regular season and the playoffs slaught should have played in all games he has a good average against right handed pitching didn t leyland and simmons forsee this last year and attempt to trade lavalliere last year itself any fool could tell them lavalliere wasn t very fit last year dennis moeller is scary candeleria well he is not going to have such a high era at the end of the season maybe it will be in range but million plus come on other than the customary home run giving stage patterson goes through for a few weeks patterson has served the pirates very well each year so far he seems to have pitched well for the rangers i think the pirates should have spent the money on patterson in stead the rookie batters well young has surprised me a bit with his instant impact other than that their excellent performance hasn t been too much of a surprise i think we should thank doughty for that rookie pitchers worse than expected especially cooke slaught how come he wasn t given a contract extension last year now his value has increased immensely lonnie smith well eric davis was signed for a comparable amount let s see eric can hit better he can run better he can field better now why didnt the pirates go after eric davis an injured davis is better than a healthy lonnie smith even if lonnnie smith gets some big hits this year he won t be an asset he has looked terrible on the bases and in the field management big big zero sauer has yet to make a forceful agreement in favor of revenue sharing he seems more concerned about pleasing that idiot danforth by preparing the team for a move to tampa bay alex cole fiasco the pirates infield and cf positions look good the rf and lf would have looked good if we could have gotten cole to replace two of the four outfielders eric davis van slyke and cole would have made a very respectable outfield even without eric davis thye pirates would have a respectable outfield with cole svan slyke and merced i think he should hit left handed against lefts in stead of switch hitting simmons did have options for the outfield ironically the biggest accomplishment of simmon s tenure was getting alex cole really cheap too bad compensatory draft picks for bonds forget it the pirates can rant and rave they will not get those picks as of now the issue is still being appealed now if this doesnt convince anyone that simmons and sauer are idiots nothing else will on a final note tim wakefield won t be as awful as he was in his last starts but don t count on him pitching like last year for the rest of the season also if the pirates are in contention towards rthe end of the season they will miss redus s clutch hitting and his speed he has peaked in the second half of the last seasons pravin ratnam
rec.sport.baseball	re torre the worst manager in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes e later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford a hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea a hitter with no power as a pinch hitter what the helll is he thinking if memory serves me well alicea hit it and damn near tied the game torre obviously knows his players better than you do see y all at the ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt e internet gt e prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes hey valentine i don t see boston with any world series rings on their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future therefore i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing and don t tell me boston will win this year they won t even be in the top in the division more like th yeah valentine how many rings does clemens have nothin like good old fashioned canadian logic btw the only good thing i can say about the jay s rotation this year is that it could have been worse stewart might have stayed healthy cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.baseball	militello update hey all you yankee fans who ve been knocking my prediction of baltimore you flooded my mailbox with cries of militello s good militello s good where is he i noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first outing he s not by any chance in columbus now is he please don t tell me you re relying on this guy to be the fourth not the fifth but the fourth starter on this brittle pitching staff as for the o s it s still early see y all at the ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt e internet gt e prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	re the mets are rapists todd karlin writes i do not read klapisch s news columns regularly but i do know that he has been accused before as being an instigator that enjoys hopefully for only professional reasons to drumb up a news story even if there isn t one there now as far as the confrontation with bobby bonilla a few days ago i almost totally blame bonilla no matter what a member of the press does and no matter how much of a putrid individual he might be that does not give a ballplayer the right to threaten a journalist bonilla wasn t threatening anyone he just wanted to give him the dollar tour david j dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it s on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real e mail me for the
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira writes howard wong mindlink bc ca howard wong writes has jack lost a bit of his edge what is the worst start jack morris has had uh jack lost his edge about years ago and has had only one above average year in the last again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky you can count on good tomorrow lucky seems to be prone to bad starts and a bad finish last year yes i am enjoying every last run he gives up who was it who said morris was a better signing than viola hey valentine i don t see boston with any world series rings on their fingers oooooo cheap shot damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future who cares he had two of them before he came to toronto and if the jays had signed viola instead of morris it would have been frank who won and got the ring and he would be on his way to this year too therefore i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing your logic is curious and spurious there is no reason to believe that viola wouldn t have won as many games had he signed with toronto when you compare their stupid w l records be sure to compare their team s offensive averages too now looking at anything like the morris viola sweepstakes a year later is basically hindsight but there were plenty of reasons why it should have been apparent that viola was the better pitcher based on previous recent years and also based on age frank is almost years younger how many knew that people got caught up in the world series and then on morris wins last year wins are the stupidest most misleading statistic in baseball far worse than rbi or r that he won just means that the jays got him a lot of runs the only really valid retort to valentine is weren t the red sox trying to get morris too oh sure they said viola was their first choice afterwards but what should we have expected they would say and don t tell me boston will win this year they won t even be in the top in the division more like th if this is true it won t be for lack of contribution by viola so who cares charles
rec.sport.baseball	re montreal question in article apr oz plymouth edu k mullin oz plymouth edu mully writes what position does mike lansing play i cannot seem to find it anywhere thanks k keith j mullins o o p s c ooo ooo internet plymouth nh it takes a big man to cry but k mullin oz plymouth edu he s played nd and rd i also heard he can play short too shawn
rec.sport.baseball	re zane rescue us from simmons in my last message i wrote management big big zero sauer has yet to make a forceful agreement in favor of revenue sharing i meant argument instead of agreement also i think i should add a coouple of ted s positive achievements smiley trade was good for the pirates but i think ted could have gotten someone better than neagle cummings seems to be pretty good the cole trade was excellent but simmons has botched it up now this year s draft seems to have gone well for the pirates but then they lost high picks in the bonds fiasco oh well i should give up trying to prove that simmons is not a total idiot
rec.sport.baseball	twins games does anyone know if the twins games are broadcast in good ole ames iowa thanks all
rec.sport.baseball	bob knepper was damn right don t you guys think so i mean c mon what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball they cause so many problems just look at lisa olson remember that feisty reporter that entered the new england patriots locker room she started crying like a little girl i just don t think women belong in a man s sport before you smart guys flame me for this i know the given example was about football who cares it still applies to other male sports how can we have women umpires jeez look at pam postema just because she s a woman everybody on the face of the earth thinks it s great that she s getting an opportunity to ump if you even watched the games and had an iq greater than that of roast beef you d see that she is not nearly as good as most aaa umpires besides she is probably more worried about cracking a fingernail with a foul tip off of wade boggs bat or jose oquendo s bat either way there are too many complications austin jacobs bob knepper fan club member
rec.sport.baseball	attention anyone in syracuse ny or richmond va there are two conflicting reports about a pitcher that is either in the jays farm system or the braves his name is bill taylor he was picked up by the jays but had to be offered back to the braves before they were able to send him to the syracuse chiefs one report says that the braves took him back and assigned him to richmond the other says that he is on the chiefs roster which one is right
rec.sport.baseball	re what s with all these scores sean garrison writes alright i have one thing to say i don t know if it s just me but i thought this newsgroup is a place for discussion why must people constantly post these little messages about how a certain team is winning in a certain inning i mean come on how many people are so dependent on this newsgroup that they have to find out the scores mid game here cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes amen i hear ya brother take a look at the timestamps on some of the posts you read sometime the propagation delays are significant often hours or even days and even people who have access to machines which are close to the poster on the network let s try weeks it is april th today and i just finished reading posts regarding the cleveland indians boating tragedy needless to say i don t want to read partial linescores of games played weeks ago as charles mentioned i excluded the quote join a mailing list if you want to woof i consider entering th inning scores as woofing thank you now to plug on and read the rest of the posts about spring training jim savoy university of lethbridge savoy hg uleth ca sigless and bible black
rec.sport.baseball	re bob knepper was damn right in article apr news yale edu austin jacobs writes don t you guys think so i mean c mon what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball they cause so many problems just look at lisa olson remember that feisty reporter that entered the new england patriots locker room she started crying like a little girl i just don t think women belong in a man s sport before you smart guys flame me for this i know the given example was about football who cares it still applies to other male sports how can we have women umpires jeez look at pam postema just because she s a woman everybody on the face of the earth thinks it s great that she s getting an opportunity to ump if you even watched the games and had an iq greater than that of roast beef you d see that she is not nearly as good as most aaa umpires besides she is probably more worried about cracking a fingernail with a foul tip off of wade boggs bat or jose oquendo s bat either way there are too many complications austin jacobs bob knepper fan club member someone tell me there s a hidden here somewhere david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder
rec.sport.baseball	re zane rescue us from simmons in article sfovx o wb mium d andrew cmu edu mamatha devineni ratnam mr andrew cmu edu writes so far simmons looks like a total idiot leyland should accept a part of the blame for the lavalliere situation i can t understand his and management s fear of losing tom prince through waivers even if they do what s the use he is aright hander like slaught not a very smart platoon also i am blaming leyland in this case since he is hcurrently convinced that lavalliere is through while giving him way too much time last year in the regular season and the playoffs slaught should have played in all games he has a good average against right handed pitching didn t leyland and simmons forsee this last year and attempt to trade lavalliere last year itself any fool could tell them lavalliere wasn t very fit last year sorry but this is the biggest load of bunk i ve seen in a while a the pirates have been trying to trade lavalliere for some time now nobody was even vaguely interested b several other teams had made it known that they would grab prince who was out of options c lavalliere s release had nothing to do with him being through he was released because in the event of an injury to slaught lavalliere is no longer capable they believe of being the everyday catcher since slaught is as good against righties as he is against lefties the offense should actually improve with this move toby
rec.sport.baseball	re militello update in article hydra gatech edu gt e prism gatech edu michael andre mule writes hey all you yankee fans who ve been knocking my prediction of baltimore you flooded my mailbox with cries of militello s good militello s good where is he i noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first outing about as good as mussina s better than sutcliffe s and mcdonald s he s not by any chance in columbus now is he he s in the bullpen steinbrenner is in charge after all please don t tell me you re relying on this guy to be the fourth not the fifth but the fourth starter on this brittle pitching staff he s got the talent to be the th starter now and evetually the ace he was a higher ranked and generally better prospect than arthur rhodes who happens to be well hey the oriole s th starter as for the o s it s still early as for militello it s still early toby elliott
rec.sport.baseball	sam are you there to mr millitello listen sammy can you explain why buck pitched you in relief yesterday i figure no one would know this better than you yourself jason a miller some doctor guy p s tell bam bam he should ve made good on his thread to retire
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu krueger helium gas uug arizona edu theodore r krueger wrote isn t it funny that a white person calls comeone a nigger and gets banned for a year but a black person calls someone a faggot and there is no consequence ted ted you re missing a vital point as roger lustig pointed out in a previous response the reason why schott was banned from baseball was because she had been known to call and think in a racially biased manner on a constant basis such thoughts affected her hiring practices bonilla on the other hand was found to have mentioned this one word a single time if he had been known to go around criticizing homosexuals it would be a different story furthermore he is merely an athlete he doesn t have to hire anyone as schott had to do dave pallone the former nl umpire who is an admitted homosexual has decided to assist in a protest before a mets game at shea he like you thinks that bonilla should be suspended from baseball pallone is hoping for a year s suspension in my opinion that s downright ludicrous as howie rose on wfan said if you start suspending athletes who have mentioned a derogatory word even a single time under whatever conditions then you d probably have enough people remaining to play a three on three game now honestly if you truly analyze the differences between the two cases that you bring up in your article i would think that you d reconsider your thoughts sean behind the bag vin scully
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira writes howard wong mindlink bc ca howard wong writes has jack lost a bit of his edge what is the worst start jack morris has had uh jack lost his edge about years ago and has had only one above average year in the last again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky you can count on good tomorrow lucky seems to be prone to bad starts and a bad finish last year yes i am enjoying every last run he gives up who was it who said morris was a better signing than viola cheers valentine hey valentine i don t see boston with any world series rings on their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future therefore i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing and don t tell me boston will win this year they won t even be in the top in the division more like th shawn gee i never knew valentine made a comment about how viola signing with boston was gonna bring a world series title to boston i don t think valentine ever said boston will win this year boy talk about sensitive insecure toronto fans in any case i think viola would have made a better signing why viola is younger and is left handed how many left handed starters does toronto have mike mike columbia edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr asd com scott asd com scott barman says wasn t ron bloomberg the former yankee who got the first base hit by a designated hitter jewish i have no idea nor do i care however i d like to point out that blomberg got the first plate appearance by a designated hitter and the first walk by a designated hitter i am not sure but i do not think that he also got the first hit by a designated hitter bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article c l vc r world std com eastgate world std com mark bernstein says which reminds me do they still serve kosher hot dogs at the new comiskey yup with onions of all things bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re juggling dodgers in article mssc mx v c netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says lasorda juggled his lineup against the pirates friday night and from the results one might conclude that he will stick with the changes for a while butler reclaimed leadoff spot probably for the whole season davis wants to get his speed into play for last night piazza the kid is doing everything well very well strawberry the primadonna insists on batting cleanup how do you know this did lasorda say before the game here s the lineup i m using i m batting strawman fourth because the primadonna insists on batting cleanup if this is true note that i don t think it is lasorda should be fired for at least two reasons publicly humiliating his players knuckling under to his players wishes however i think that the more likely explanation is that lasorda wanted strawberry to bat fourth and that you hate strawberry bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re let s talk phillies in article apr mgweed mgwhiz att com prg mgweed mgwhiz att com phil gunsul says i try to edit this newsgroup and feed it to one of the local elementary schools they have a group of students that just love baseball and are learning to use computers but i m telling you it s gotten to the point that i don t even edit the files anymore just read them and throw out the trash and thanks to all you people that think it s wonderful to include a swear word or two in your signature files that s really nice i have to read the whole article and then toss it out because of the sig duh why not just chop out the sig bob vesterman ps hey kids take all those pictures of dead presidents out of your parents wallets and mail them to bob vesterman c o dept of mathematics university of notre dame notre dame indiana
rec.sport.baseball	re mlb nba in article apr news yale edu sean garrison says i think that players salaries are getting way out of hand to the point that they re on a pace to become severely detrimental to baseball s future so you want to decrease players salaries so you want to increase owners salaries the two are equivalent bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re usa mcweekly stats in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione says also i have the impression from reading this group and bill james that elias is a bunch of money grubbing jerks whose mission is to charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info and bill james is not yeah sure do you own the bill james players rating book bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re bosox win again the team record is in article apr ncar ucar edu amj rsf atd ucar edu anthony michael jivoin says with the hawk the red sox definitely have a chance for the east this year he brings class work ethic and leadership to the park each day too bad he doesn t bring the ability to hit pitch field or run bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	let s talk phillies the phillies salvaged their weekend series against the chicago cubs by beating them in a wild one at wrigley field sunday afternoon it was the phils only win in the three game series and was the first time the phillies have lost a series in the young season the phils jumped to a lead in the game thanks to john kruk run homers and two wes chamberlain homers however danny jackson and the phillies middle relief was unable to hold the lead mitch williams entered the game with the phillies leading however candy maldonado hit a ninth inning homerun to tie it in the th dave hollins hit a three run shot his first of the year to push the phils ahead to stay however in a shaky bottom of the th the cubs scored runs and had the tying runner on base when the cubs pinch hit randy myers for bob scanlan they were out of position players and myers bunted into a double play to end the game the phils bring their league leading record back to action tuesday wednesday and thursday against the padres
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris michael chen mike cunixf cc columbia edu wrote in any case i think viola would have made a better signing why viola is younger and is left handed how many left handed starters does toronto have well i agree that viola is a better signing however why does everyone say that you want lefthanded starters i understand lefthanded spot relievers even though they usually face more righthanded batters than lefthanded batters i just don t understand why people insist on lefthanded starters unless there is a park effect e g yankee stadium most batters in mlb are righthanded so righthanded starters will have the platoon advantage more often than lefthanded starters i guess one argument for lefty starters is that certain teams may be more vulnerable to lhp s than rhp s however this is probably only a factor in the postseason because teams seldom juggle their starters for this reason during the regular season i think you just want the best starters you can get regardless of whether they are lefties or righties lefthanded starters tend to have higher era s than righthanded starters precisely because managers go out of their way to start inferior lefties or perhaps because of the platoon advantage am i missing something here craig
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes hey valentine i don t see boston with any world series rings on their fingers yah so damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future he certainly didn t earn his last one how many games did he blow in the world series all of the ones he started therefore i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing oh yes definitely therefore morris is better than clemens don t give me that shit if boston had alomar olerud henke and ward while toronto had rivera jack clark jeff reardon things would have looked a little different last fall give credit where credit is due this lavishing of praise on morris makes me sick and don t tell me boston will win this year they won t even be in the top in the division more like th i m willing to bet they don t finish sixth i m also willing to bet they don t finish first and if you give me odds i m willing to bet that they finish ahead of the blue jays valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article qt ooinn gd senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes the only really valid retort to valentine is weren t the red sox trying to get morris too oh sure they said viola was their first choice afterwards but what should we have expected they would say lou wanted morris all along the idiot giving the man million to play with is like giving a five year old a loaded uzi with the safety off the only question is how many shots he will get off before somebody is wise enough to take it away and don t tell me boston will win this year they won t even be in the top in the division more like th if this is true it won t be for lack of contribution by viola so who cares i don t see why people expect boston to finish sixth the bottom four teams last year were essentially tied boston in seventh place had wins the yankees and indians tied for fourth place had wins now i should think it is obvious that the red sox improved more than the indians or tigers basically the red sox are stronger this year at b dh ss lf and rf they have healthier starting pitchers so far at least and better relievers i see no reason why they shouldn t win games meanwhile the indians are in shambles and the tigers still have no pitching they will win some blowouts but they will lose an awful lot of games too maybe the sox will play poorly win games and finish fifth but i think third or fourth place is more likely cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re militello update in article hydra gatech edu gt e prism gatech edu michael andre mule writes hey all you yankee fans who ve been knocking my prediction of baltimore um how many games have the orioles won you flooded my mailbox with cries of militello s good militello s good he is or will be where is he i noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first outing he s not by any chance in columbus now is he please don t tell me you re relying on this guy to be the fourth not the fifth but the fourth starter on this brittle pitching staff no currently there s no room for him in the rotation key is having a most impressive april abbott is pitching well perez is back wickman has pitched his way into the rotation and is holding his spot with an outstanding performance his last time out and kamieniecki isn t doing too poorly himself if the yankees find themselves in need of a starter militello will get another chance until then he ll have to wait in line valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re bob knepper was damn right why did i get sucked into this in article apr news yale edu austin jacobs writes don t you guys think so i mean c mon what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball they cause so many problems just assuming you re serious i guess you d be surprised to hear that us guys don t think so i would guess that a tiny fraction of of the folks reading your post agree with it i kind of doubt that even you agree with it i m not going to go through your points one at a time because after all not many of them have anything at all to do with baseball i m only replying to this because you brought up pam postema the aaa umpire who sued is suing baseball on the grounds of sex discrimination because she wasn t promoted to the majors jeez look at pam postema just because she s a woman everybody on the face of the earth thinks it s great that she s getting an opportunity to ump if you even watched the games and had an iq greater than that of roast beef you d see that she is not nearly as good as most aaa umpires i ve never seen her ump a game i have no first hand experience with her ability as an umpire but i have seen her on talk shows and her point seems to be that she can call balls and strikes as well as any of the umpires and she knows the rulebook better than most it seems to me that she is missing the point and if that s how she sees the role of umpires in the game well i wouldn t promote her either the umpires primary role has nothing to do with calling baserunners safe or out hell joe lundy could do that their primary function is to maintain order in the game keep the game moving and keep the players from trying to kill each other umpires have to be extremely tough people that disqualifies most of us both men and women and if ms postema thinks that she deserves to be a major league umpire because of her command of the rulebook then i think that disqualifies her as well umpires need to command the game command of the rulebook is secondary dave eisen to succeed in the world it is not dkeisen leland stanford edu enough to be stupid you must also sequoia peripherals be well mannered voltaire home
rec.sport.baseball	re montreal question in article apr oz plymouth edu k mullin oz plymouth edu mully writes what position does mike lansing play i cannot seem to find it anywhere thanks he s a shortstop by training but he s been at second mostly and third this year for the expos dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ucsd cs demers la jolla ca or fax
rec.sport.baseball	re let s talk phillies in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article apr mgweed mgwhiz att com prg mgweed mgwhiz att com phil gunsul says ps hey kids take all those pictures of dead presidents out of your parents wallets and mail them to bob vesterman and send him a shift key too dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ucsd cs demers la jolla ca or fax
rec.sport.baseball	re zane rescue us from simmons mamatha devineni ratnam mr andrew cmu edu writes so far simmons looks like a total idiot whatever you say i think it s just games into the season myself so i m going to wait a bit before calling names i am sure simmons was ready to say i told you so after otto had an impressive win last week now otto s latest debacle has restored simmons reputation now he looks like he is back in his form when he had the al s highest era among starters four our sake not ted s sake i hope he pitches with a era for the rest of the season yeah right i expect that dave otto will be a really bad pitcher and i have no idea why simmons ever wanted him on the other hand i expect him to release otto if he doesn t turn things around pretty fast btw otto s game score for that ip stinker was only which points out a problem with the method since otto s performance was infinitely bad and excruciatingly prolonged tomlin and merced are a bit disappointing they are still doing decently but considering the considerable amount of talent and maturity they have shown their first seasons they seem to have actually gotten a little bit worse i think merced s rookie year was a bit flukey but aren t you willing to give him some more at bats and tomlin a few more starts before acting so gloomy walk well he seems to be on the losing end tonight but i still think that walk desrved his contract no he didn t walk is a time bomb he has no stuff whatsoever and when the league finally realizes this it won t be pretty at all the rookie batters well young has surprised me a bit with his instant impact other than that their excellent performance hasn t been too much of a surprise i think we should thank doughty for that don t be so fast doughty is the guy who signed steve buechele which was a move that threatened to bury kevin young in the minors meanwhile i m not sure whether doughty or simmons signed martin as a six year free agent before the season rookie pitchers worse than expected especially cooke twice through the rotation and you ve given up yikes slaught how come he wasn t given a contract extension last year now his value has increased immensely but so has his age at least in baseball terms the useful half life of a year old injury prone catcher can t be much longer than a year lonnie smith well eric davis was signed for a comparable amount but he wanted to be a dodger and felt he had something to prove after his disastrous i don t think there was any chance for the bucs to sign him let s see eric can hit better he can run better he can field better now why didnt the pirates go after eric davis an injured davis is better than a healthy lonnie smith he certainly wasn t last year even if lonnnie smith gets some big hits this year he won t be an asset he has looked terrible on the bases and in the field hey that s the skates smith package deal anybody who acquires lonnie for his defense or base running particularly at this stage is a real weirdo management big big zero sauer has yet to make a forceful argument in favor of revenue sharing he seems more concerned about pleasing that idiot danforth by preparing the team for a move to tampa bay if that s the goal of the team ownership than i don t see why sauer gets a zero for making his boss happy i don t know what he has or hasn t said about revenue sharing so i can t comment there alex cole fiasco stuff deleted ironically the biggest accomplishment of simmons tenure was getting alex cole really cheap too bad that he gave him away in the expansion draft it s annoying but since leyland seems to have been pushing for them to retain jeff king it was probably unavoidable meanwhile i think bigger accomplishments of simmons tenure were getting some value for john smiley not trading real prospects for veterans down the stretch last year drafting well in letting the rookies show something in foley smith and candelaria were acquired to be replacement parts which means that even if fail it hasn t done serious damage to the bucs future compensatory draft picks for bonds forget it the pirates can rant and rave they will not get those picks as of now the issue is still being appealed does this mean that the bucs lost the initial arbitration case i never heard the outcome of this when will the final verdict be in on this now if this doesnt convince anyone that simmons and sauer are idiots nothing else will i m not sure who was the idiot in this case so i don t know who to blame it might have been doug danforth after all in fact i seriously suspect it was doug danforth who has shown his willingness to call the shots at exactly those moments when the gun is pointed at his feet btw i ve wondered whether my latest posts have been getting off site so if somebody known to impersonate e e cummings can see this would he drop me a short note jking
rec.sport.baseball	re dodger question the dodgers have been shopping harris to other teams in their quest for more left handed pitching so far no takers personally i think harris is a defensive liability and he has also led the team in past years for hitting into double plays or at least been among the leaders sharperson showed last year that if given a chance to play every day he can get the job done if sharpy played just one base every day say third he d also improve defensively wallach has helped tremendously on defense as has reed the improved defense is quite noticeable and is having an effect on the pitching staff both astacio and martinez were bailed out in recent starts by great defensive plays martinez pitched into the ninth in a game that might have seen him lifted in the third in past years astacio lasted innings the other day under similar circumstances the dodgers are turning double plays and keeping more balls in the infield than last year and piazza has also been great on defense he has thrown out of batters trying to steal and has at least one pick off at first wallach clearly has contributed to the over all improvement on defense but his offense is awful and he has cost the dodgers some runs but i don t think he is as bad as his current average i suspect he will come out of this slump much as davis and straw seem to have come out of theirs dodger
rec.sport.baseball	re let it be known in article issbtl byuvm bitnet issbtl byuvm bitnet writes i would like to make everyone aware that in winning the nl west the atlanta braves did not lead wire to wire through games of the houston astros are percentage points ahead of the unbeatable braves and they deserve to be if for no other reason than salvaging a little of the honor of the nl west the supposed strongest division in baseball lost of to the east yesterday with only the astros prevailing we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or a sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	re expanded nl strike zone was re a surfeit of offense in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes we won t really be able to say anything for at least another couple of weeks but so far it looks like a homerific season might the umps be squeezing the strike zone watching the braves on tbs i would have said that the strike zone in the nl has expanded this season specifically it appears that the strike zone has moved above the belt yeah the announcers have commented on that also but it was also my perception however the strike zone hasn t climbed all the way up to the letters it s more like a little ways under the letters any other perceptions out there judging by the way the reds pitchers have performed thus far it appears to me that the zone has been squeezed to the size of a grape douglas n ritter dougr meaddata com life is short ride hard uunet meaddata dougr
rec.sport.baseball	re i ve found the secret in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes why are the red sox in first place eight games into the season they already have two wins each from clemens and viola clemens starts again tonight on three days rest huh clemens pitched last on saturday giving him his usual four days rest what s up are the sox going with a four man rotation is this why hesketh was used in relief last night brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com i didn t think i should ve been asked to catch when the temperature was below my age carlton fisk chicago white sox catcher on playing during a degree april ball game
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article apr sarah albany edu js albnyvms bitnet writes in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes spike owen sure he s hitting like crazy but the guy cannot field to save his life and they said he was brought in to provide defense velarde stankiewicz and even silvestri are better defensively than owen remember it s still early look for his offense to tail off and his defense to improve hopefully he has that rep because i heard that either last year or over the last years or something like that he has the third highest fielding percentage among major league shortstops behind c r and tony i m not gonna help this sorry mets team at all fernandez i do agree though that he has not looked all that impressive in the field thus far owen only has one error so far i believe that seriously underrepresents the harm he has done in the field owen will cleanly play any ball he reaches he will have a fine fielding percentage like always the problem is that he doesn t reach anything that isn t hit straight at him this wouldn t be quite as obvious a problem if he were playing next to kelly gruber or robin ventura but the third baseman for the yankees is wade boggs who should have moved across the diamond last year i ve only seen one game abbott s first start but there were three balls hit to the left side which would have been stopped by quality defensive players instead they were charged as hits against abbott cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir in article apr acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes or second starter it seems to me that when quality pitchers take the mound the other teams score less runs the team that scores the most runs wins this puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs a low scoring game would clearly benefit the braves not clear to me at all i d certainly rather have a team who was winning games than games in the game luck is going to play a much bigger role than in the game sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re expanded nl strike zone was re a surfeit of offense jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes it was my impression watching the mets rockies that umpires were calling strikes above the belt too but not as far up as the letters it would be nice if this were the case the umps saw the weekend boxscores too they knew the pitchers needed some help or they would be watching the sunrise mike timlin timlin spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	billy taylor a brave or jay does anyone know where billy taylor is richmond or syracuse he was taken by the jays in the rule v draft but not kept on the roster baseball weekly said that he was demoted to syracuse but a toronto paper indicated that the braves took him back is there an atlanta fan or anyone reading this who knows thanks psl
rec.sport.baseball	defensive averages third base compiled from the last five defensive average reports here are the career das for the individual players in the reports stats are courtesy of sherri nichols players are listed in descending order third basemen name mitchell kevin gonzales rene leius scott pendleton terry ventura robin wallach tim gruber kelly pagliarulo mike harris lance howell jack williams matt caminiti ken sabo chris gaetti gary buechele steve salazar luis pecota bill schmidt mike riles ernie boggs wade martinez egdar molitor paul phillips tony nl average brookens tom king jeff seitzer kevin al average jacoby brook hansen dave law vance magadan dave jefferies greg sharperson mike zeile todd baerga carlos hayes chris livingstone scott hamilton j kelly pat lyons steve oberkfell ken johnson howard bell buddy lansford carney presley jim schu rick worthington cal hollins dave sheffield gary blauser jeff fryman travis gantner jim gomez lee palmer dean dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu grad student at large it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re the all time greats team in article apr iscsvax uni edu reed iscsvax uni edu writes dave winfield s name does not go in the same sentence as aaron robinson and ott in terms of peak and i repeat peak years winfield has done it all he has batted in the s for a season drove in and more runs many times in a row before his injury consistently hit at or near while knocking in home runs have you even looked at dave winfield s slugging percentage for three or of his best seasons i still think that dave was one of the better of all time but obviously not the best he was one of the best athletes evr to play baseball he hit line drives that hit the scoreboard in left center field a feat np one has done in the new stadium heck only or other people have hit it over that green fence since it has been remodeled he could field had a bullet arm and his hitting was comparable in many seasons to gary sheffields and barry bonds of last season he is older now and slowing down takes more of an uppercut to lift the ball out of the park but he will always be my hero and my idol there is nothing that could make me happier than george inviting dave back to the bronx to play his last year of ball with the yankees of course he will most likely refuse the offer but who knows for million dollars he ll play heck they are giving gallego million this year having dave as their dh while leaving him time to play the field when tartabull is injured or nokes and mass are traded should give the yanks the inspiration and leadership that will sweep in a new age of yankee domination michael lurie
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes some pleasant and then some not so pleasant surprises about the edition of the bronx bombers so far wickman a friend made a comparison between wickman and jack morris they never have impressive stats but they always find some way to win although morris seems to be losing that ability i figured that wickman would be the least important part of the steve sax trade best trade since we got that ruth guy maybe winding up as a good middle reliever but i like what i ve seen so far he doesn t pitch pretty but he gets the job done actually i kind of liked the abott trade we did trade the rookie of the year snow but with don mattingly at first for another years why bother
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes farr s era is in the s or s and howe s is infinite i didn t think such a thing was possible but it is actually according to usa today howe has inning atttributed to him but maybe that is incorrect by the excellent report
rec.sport.baseball	yankee fears i ll tell youm all one thing steve howe and farr are much better then the worst pitcher in yankee pitching who do you think i am talking about i ll post the answers if you e mail to me use reply or post you re answers but e mailing them to me meaqns that i will post the final results i have one particular horrid pitcher in mind
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes thanks alan that was well thought out even written in an entertaining style
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame in article apr news yale edu steve tomassi writes hi baseball fans so what do you say don t you think he deserves it i mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don t we give dave kingman a chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon oh yeah dave winfield marginal player guy didn t hit a lick had negligible power was a crap fielder and had no staying power dave winfield now entering his i believe th big league season is still a damn decent hitter admittedly his defense has slipped a great deal but in his prime he had a powerful arm and great range take a look at the stats i don t know where you even begin to make an argument that winfield and kingman are similar players kingman was a one dimension power hitter he couldn t field he ran like an anvil hit for a low average though if i remember right his obp wasn t that hideous and for those who consider such things important was a absolute primo dick eddie murray yup only the best st baseman of the s i know that mvp votes are conducted by mediots but given that he got jobbed out of the mvp he deserved in it seems that he wasn t overrated by the media lee smith hmmmm this one s actually pretty close he s had a s solid dependable career as a closer despite pitching in some nasty parks wrigley fenway i d have to take a closer look at the stats it s been a while but it seems lee arthur is of hof caliber you do make a legitimate point about the hof credentials of relievers simply racking up a lot of saves doesn t mean a whole hell of a lot if you blow a bunch too simply because minnesota and boston and for a month atlanta used reardon as a closer for longer than he should have been one the equalizer has racked up an impressive number of saves no way should homerman be in the hof imho darrell evans nice career actually a bit underrated kinda like ted simmons imho but not a hof er well in any case i am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today s standards marginal lemme ask you this who the hell playing the game isn t marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don t belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for a long time big deal let s be a little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something now wait a goddamn minute here ozzie smith absolutely redefined the position of shortstop his defense was so good that he s won something along the lines of gold gloves again gold gloves are mediot biased and a good argument could be made that larkin deserved one or two of ozzie s more recent awards but usually this is tempered by someone else in the early s getting the gold gloves ozzie deserved earlier in his career ozzie s offense you ask good obp great speed numbers in a park which for most of his career depressed offense admittedly no power cept against tom niedenfuer but still a definite asset offensively yount hits mvp at two different positions uh huh a real stiff his was one of the great years ever by a player in recent memory and probably ranks behind only the peak seasons of wagner and banks as far as ss numbers go he s a clear hof er imho isn t done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan well as far as garvey goes you re right garvey is a mediot candidate pushed because of his winning attitude a minor factor if one at all and his great defense no errors admittedly but the range of a tree stump garvey shouldn t be in the hof skyjack i ve said a lot of nasty things about skyjack in the last year or so but this is mostly in response to mediots and woofers who talk about morris ability to win which is nothing more than morris ability to pitch when toronto to score tons of runs at this point morris is an average pitcher although from his early returns in he may be damned close to done but in all fairness morris was a dominant pitcher in the s for up and down tiger teams while was obviously a great year for detroit the rest of the decade the team was generally in contention but not favorites morris career numbers are quite good and worthy of hof consideration ryan of course but be careful i guarantee you that someone will throw back your earlier logic about yount and smith being shortstops who hung around a long time after all nolan never won a cy damn he s just pitcher who hung around for years his w l record is mediocre of course nolan s a hof er puck probably although he s got to play reasonably well for a few more years years even good ones aren t enough to make the hof most likely that said i believe puckett will make the hof pretty much regardless of how the rest of his career turns out barring something really tragic or sudden he s very popular in the media and with fans and legitimately has been one of the best cf s in the game since he joined the league i ve always liked the guy and i hope he does make it and in the end i think the puck will make it in but really it s too early to sell this debate comes up rather frequently on the net and believe it or not i never tire of it it s an interesting subject here s an off the top of my head list of potential hof ers from each team i probably left a couple of guys off so feel free to follow up i won t consider anyone who started playing after about again too early to tell note these are all active players i m not counting recent retirees baltimore cal ripken should be a lock by now even if gehrig s record stands boston roger clemens might be a lock already which is amazing dawson detroit alan trammell and lou whitaker possibilities milwaukee robin yount discussed earlier new york wade boggs possibly mattingly long shot toronto paul molitor and jack morris possibilities kansas city george brett lock minnesota kirby too early to tell winfield lock oakland eckersley lock mcgwire too early rickey lock welch long shot texas the mighty nolan too early to consider canseco or strange cubs sandberg lock st louis ozzie lock lee smith probably new york murray almost a lock saberhagen obviously he s got to regain past form and most certainly not vince coleman despite what he ll tell you los angeles butler strawberry and hershiser are all long shots san diego tony gwynn pretty good shot colorado dale murphy a good shot ryan bowen just to see if you re awake before i get flames this is an off the top of the head list there s probably a few deserving candidates that i left off and i didn t include barry bonds will clark any atlanta starting pitcher frank thomas canseco mcgriff etc because i only considered guys who started playing before e mail or post i almost fear what i may have started here bruce hasch hasch jhuvms hcf jhu edu sell the team eli if a hitter is a good fastball hitter does that mean i should throw him a bad fastball larry andersen
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns darryl strawberry s moon shots were fun he can hit those high and far home runs that if he actually ran them out he d be rounding second base by the time they landed we used to say that he should have to file a flight plan at laguardia for some of them then bull durham came out and that was changed on homers he pulled that didn t go high they were microwave home runs microwave as in they got outta there in a hurry in a game in he came off the bench with the flu and on the second pitch send a rocket down the right field line that didn t even allow bob murphy the luxury of a home run call the story went he stayed in the clubhouse the with the mets down by two and two on davey johnson sent for him to pinch hit he came out of the clubhouse saying one swing and we go home he hit the homer ran the bases then went straight for the clubhouse to shower and go home those were the days scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re baseballisdead in article apr midway uchicago edu as midway uchicago edu writes my question to you all is why does the media seem to embrace the theme of the death of baseball so strongly i have seen articles of a similar vein in the chicago tribune and in sports editorials on tv maybe because baseball is the only business where those who are responsible for the fiscal aspects of the game preach gloom and doom these allegedly intelligent people seem to predict bad times losing money bankruptcies at an alarming rate and there s going to be an increased degradation of the product they produce could you imagine ibm with all their problems promoting themselves the way major league baseball does their stock would plummet to unthinkable depths not that they are too far from it now what would happen at gm where would gm be if they admitted to cutting corners and producing an inferior product because of alleged labor problems i think it shows a lack of confidence for the people who run the game anyway it just frustrates me when the media says such things because it inevitably leads to owners trying quick fixes like increasing play offs to satisfy television or trying interleague play to drum up interest forget it word has it three divisions with a wild card is just about a done deal it has to be decided soon since negotiations with the networks also have to begin soon scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re all time best players in article apr bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i ve recently been working on project to determine the greatest players at their respective postions my sources are total baseball james historical abstract the ballplayers biography word of mouth and my own biased opinions feel free to comment suggest flame whatever but i tried to be as objective as possible using statistical data not inlcuded for time convience s sake i judged on rel ba adj ops total average fielding range runs total player rating total baseball stolen bases for curiosity s sake tpr g and years played mvp b career lou gehrig jimmie foxx eddie murray hank greenberg johnny mize willie mccovey dick allen harmon killebrew kieth hernandez it s i before e except after c and in people named keith bill terry george sisler b eddie collins joe morgan jackie robinson rogers hornsby nap lajoie rhyne sandberg learn to spell it s ryne charlie gehringer rod carew bobby grich bobby doerr ss honus wagner cal ripken jr john lloyd ozzie smith robin yount joe cronin arky vaughan luke appling ernie banks lou boudreau b mike schmidt ed matthews george brett wade boggs ron santo brooks robinson frank baker darrell evans pie traynor ray dandridge how can brooks be i think he would at least be ahead of ron santo c josh gibson a darren daulton mvp yogi berra johnny bench mickey cochrane bill dickey gabby hartnett roy campanella gary carter carlton fisk thurman munson lf ted williams stan musial rickey henderson carl yastrzemski barry bonds tim raines joe jackson ralph kiner willie stargell al simmons cf willie mays ty cobb tris speaker mickey mantle joe dimaggio oscar charleston andre dawson duke snider kirby puckett dale murphy rf babe ruth hank aaron frank robinson mel ott al kaline reggie jackson dave winfield roberto clemente tony gwynn pete rose p walter johnson lefty grove cy young christy mathewson pete alexander tom seaver roger clemens bob gibson warren spahn satchel paige juan marichal whitey ford bob feller jim palmer steve carlton overall estimated ruth williams mays cobb aaron wagner speaker schmidt w johnson mantle musial dimaggio f robinson grove henderson j gibson c young collins foxx mathewson alexander morgan j robinson hornsby ott seaver clemens matthews lajoie yastrzemski kaline brett gibson spahn charleston berra ripken jr lloyd raines sandberg gehringer o smith yount ba bonds paige r jackson marichal ford feller boggs again feel free to comment mike bsu
rec.sport.baseball	re evil smile on my face as cubs beat braves boy hats off to any cubs fan who can actually muster up the courage to put down braves fans i mean all the braves have done is gone to two consecutive world series also being the cubs fan that i am i really have to hand it to all the braves fans out there that are capable of driving me crazy with that infernal cheer that they have however i do have to protest anyone saying that all cubs fans are stupid the way i see it either i m just too stupid to acknowledge it or that observation was just plain wrong you might have us confused with bear fans anyway about a two weeks ago just about everyone was saying that the cubs would finish up last in their division even behind florida sheesh these same people were predicting the braves to clean up in their respective division well we re ten games into the season and these people are a little less vocal now i wonder why well the way i see it the east is up for grabs and whoever wants it most is going to take it with the exception of florida every team seems to have good batting and pitching with philly presently leading the pack but i just have to point out if the cubs do take the east they ll do it without the benefit of a competent manager however and it pains me to say it the pennant is going to go to the west just had to get that off my chest doc bem benefit of a compee
rec.sport.baseball	jose canseco s swing vs was going over some videos last night studying and videotapes of jose canseco proved to be very interesting and enlightening here s my analysis of jose canseco circa sep and jose canseco circa june he s bulked up too much period he needs to lose about pounds not gain more bulk his bat speed has absolutely vanished conservatively i d say he s lost of his bat speed and that s a huge amount of speed that open stance is killing him note that he acts sort of like brian downing way open to start then closes up as ball is released downing could do this without significant head movement canseco can t also note that canseco doesn t always close his stance the same way sometimes his hips are open sometimes they re fully closed without a good starting point it s hard to make adjustments in your swing what would i do if i were jose aside from salting away a large sum of a cash that i could never touch so that i d never have to work again i d restructure my entire swing first minimize movement before the swing close and widen the stance and severely cut down the stride i take on my swing hopefully this will cut down on the time i need to swing and will allow me to move the bathead more freely second drop pounds cut out the weight work third relax the wrists will cost some power but until i can find my stroke concentrate on keeping the back shoulder up rolling the wrists through the strike zone and hit line drives his strength is more than enough so that some of those line drives will get out of the park if canseco s open stance and resulting bad habits are a result of his back problems he ll be out of baseball in three years if not he could still hit hr gary huckabay you think that s loud enough a hole movie rights well if you re having trouble hearing it sir available thru i d be happy to turn it up for you i didn t ted frank know that many people your age liked king s x
rec.sport.baseball	brewer bullpen rocked again for the second straight game california scored a ton of late runs to crush the brewhas it was six runs in the th for a win monday and five in the th and six in the th for a win yesterday jamie navarro pitched seven strong innings but orosco austin manzanillo and lloyd all took part in the mockery of a bullpen yesterday how s this for numbers maldanado has pitched three scoreless innings and navarro s era is the next lowest on the staff is wegman at ouch it doesn t look much better for the hitters hamilton is batting while thon is hitting and has seven rbi the next highest is three the next best hitter is jaha at and then vaughn who has the team s only hr at another ouch looking at the stats it s not hard to see why the team is in fact doesn t sound bad when you re averaging three runs game and giving up game still it s early and things will undoubtedly get better the offense should come around but the bullpen is a major worry fetters plesac and austin gave the brewers great middle relief last year lloyd maldanado manzanillo fetters austin and orosco will have to pick up the pace for the team to be successful milwaukee won a number of games last year when middle relief either held small leads or kept small deficits in place the starters will be okay the defense will be alright and the hitting will come around but the bullpen is a big question mark in other news nilsson and doran were reactivated yesterday while william suero was sent down and tim mcintosh was picked up by montreal today s game with california was cancelled salty
rec.sport.baseball	ryan on dl heard minutes ago on koa radio denver nolan ryan to have arthroscopic on a knee and to miss weeks rockies nied lead mets gooden in th all runs in first inning gregg baseball ncar ucar edu cr o cr colorado rockies
rec.sport.baseball	when does fred mcgriff of the padres become a free agent 
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir dave naehring x p ep dn pts mot com wrote in article adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes every single piece of evidence we can find points to major league baseball being offense defense a run scored is just as important as a run prevented this certainly passes the common sense test for me but is there any statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what percent is fielding i d really like to know btw sherri thanks for the da data i find it fascinating one of the chapters in palmer and thorn s hidden game is titled pitching is of baseball implying that fielding is how do they determine that beats me it s been a long long time since i read it one also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning with the split probably somewhere around and neal traven pitt edu you re only young once but you can be traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen
rec.sport.baseball	re tigers thud see sig kurt bose as in daisy not rose kbos carina unm edu help cleanse r s b of all mindless woofing whenever someone at your site posts an article with a subject of the form my team r lz simply look him up in the directory hunt him down and beat him senseless easy fun rewarding
rec.sport.baseball	sparky anderson gets win tigers beat a s tigers manager sparky anderson gets his th career win as moments ago the tigers completed a two game sweep over the oakland a s at tiger stadium by beating the a s here are the highlights r h e oakland detroit chad krueter scored skeeter barnes from st with an rbi double in the bottom of the ninth against none other than dennis eckersley to give the tigers the victory barnes also had an rbi single to score thurmond to tie the score in the ninth also off eckersley sp the a s got their runs on an rbi single by mcgwire in the st and a solo homer by reuben sierra in the th deer doubled home kirk gibson in the th for the other tiger run john doherty pitched another strong game for the tigers once again lasting through the seventh inning he was relieved by bolton and then david haas in the th and haas got the win bobby witt started for the a s and was replaced by honeycutt in the th followed by goose gossage in the th and finally eckersly in the th doherty gave up both of the a s runs while witt gave up the first tiger run and eckerseley gave up the last two in the post game interview on wjr radio in detroit sparky anderson said its one of the few times he s gotten emotional in his managing career it was a big moment for him and i m sure all of us tiger fans are unanimously very happy for him and what a way to get number considering the circumstances i think it might be appropriate to say woof go tigers randy
rec.sport.baseball	re jose canseco s swing vs in article c jkik zf ucdavis edu ez dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes here s my analysis of jose canseco circa sep and jose canseco circa june he s bulked up too much period he needs to lose about pounds not gain more bulk i ve been saying that for at least years now and even the a s conditioning guru told jose he was carrying too much weight and losing some would help his back although i don t for one second believe jose used steroids his back problems are very similar to problems alot of steroid users experience because they are simply carrying too much weight on their frame see jeff bregel ex er as a textbook example and imho jose is too big for his frame his bat speed has absolutely vanished conservatively i d say he s lost of his bat speed and that s a huge amount of speed i can t imagine how to estimate bat speed but its pretty obvious that jose is missing fastballs he used to hit likely due to his back that open stance is killing him note that he acts sort of like brian downing way open to start then closes up as ball is released downing could do this without significant head movement canseco can t also note that canseco doesn t always close his stance the same way sometimes his hips are open sometimes they re fully closed without a good starting point it s hard to make adjustments in your swing i don t know he had an even more open stance when he first came up with the a s and had no problems with it then it might be that pre back problems he was quick enough to cover up any deficiencies the stance caused but now he s lost just enough bat speed that the stance hurts him the old saying if you re hot its a trigger mechanism if you re cold its a hitch first minimize movement before the swing close and widen the stance and severely cut down the stride i take on my swing hopefully this will cut down on the time i need to swing and will allow me to move the bathead more freely the biggest problem imho is he never has found a stance he s comfortable with for more than a few months he changes his stance so much he loses track of where the strike zone is in wednesday s night game he was clearly mad at strike calls on both corners that looked pretty good to me i think he no longer knows where the strike zone really is because he s changed his stance so much i m also a bit concerned that because he s got palmer and gonzalez hitting all the homeruns he ll become competitive swing even harder and screw himself up even worse larussa always said that canseco s famous batting practice homer shows did him more harm than good as they encouraged bad hitting habits russ smith i don t know anything about x s but i know about some o george gervin on being an assistant coach
rec.sport.baseball	re the phillies deja vu robert c hite philly bach udel edu wrote i think most of the problems mainly arose from manager gene mauch s ineptitude in managing the pitching staff down the stretch he abused jim bunning chris short and robin roberts i think those are the three pitching each on only days rest for quite some time by the time they hit the last weeks of the season obviously none of these guys had an ounce left in their arm oh well roberts was long gone he was probably an oriole in or maybe a colt the rd starter was art mahaffey the previous year s ace dennis bennett was the th starter they were indeed up with to go but they won their final two games after the horrid loss streak the final game victory bunning s th win if memory serves kept the reds from tying for the title they and the phils were both game behind the cards with the giants another game back the mets couldn t hold an early lead against the cards that final sunday or there would have been a way tie too bad they couldn t have saved some of the or so runs they scored on saturday when they crushed st louis neal traven pitt edu you re only young once but you can be traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen
rec.sport.baseball	re tigers i basically agree the tigers are my favorite team actually their pitching might actually be better this year than last not that htat s saying a hole lot how bout that home opener on tuesday by the way sparky goes for win today
rec.sport.baseball	hal mcrae dak s vma smsu edu writes no hal mcrae is the worst manager in baseball i haven t seen enough royals games to judge his tactics so you may have a point here but i ve never seen a guy who can waste talent like he can one of the best raw talent staffs in the league and he s still finding a way to lose imo the royals don t have a chance to win the pennant even if mcrae suddenly began channeling for john mcgraw ok they have some decent pitchers but when your offense consists of bums like gagne and lind and mcreynolds and mcrae and an over the hill brett you re not going to finish unless mcgraw brings christy mathewson back with him i d say it is hard to evaluate a manager when all of his hitters suck bob davis rbd thor ece uc edu
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help thanks bobby
rec.sport.baseball	re wfan in article c jc z knd news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert c hite writes in article apr virginia edu jja h virginia edu writes does any one out there listen to wfan for those of you who do not know what i am talking about it is an all sports radio staion in new york on a clear night the signal reaches up and down the east coast in particular i want to know how len berman and mike lupica s show is i go to school in virginia so i can t listen when there are on during the day just wondering you re right about the signal being strong i live in west philadelphia and i can get fan almost perfectly it s a sports fans dream especially if that person is from ny and wants to hear about his teams while he s away at school as for lupica berman it s turned out to be lupica then berman neither of them wanted to work a full four hour show so ed coleman and dave sims old four hour slot was broken down into two seperate two hour show lupica from and berman from and they both happen to suck in comparison to eddie and dave come back guys the fan is an okay sports radio station but doesn t come close to the ultimate in sports radio wip in philadelphia the signal might not be as powerful but then again only stations in new york feel obligated to pollute everyone else s airwaves with a bunch of hoodlum mets fans complaining hours a day wip took two of your best sports jockeys too jody macdonald and steve fredericks wip is rockin with sports talk from am till midnight check it out anytime your within a few hours of philadelphia if i m not mistaken wip has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation like i said i live in philly so i can hear fan and or wip whenever i want but i cannot stand wip and it isn t because i loathe the philly sports teams the phillies are my favorite nl team yanks are favorite al and the eagles aren t too bad either there are two big problems total emphasis on the home teams especially the eagles unlike the fan hosts who can at least answer a question about an out of town team if a caller asks the wip hosts seem to have no clue about any team that doesn t play on broad street also fans periodic sports updates every minutes gives sports news and scores from around the country it s very rare to hear an out of town score being reported on wip the hosts with the exception of jody macdonald who i miss from his days at fan none of the hosts really seems to have both a broad knowledge of the sport or a good on air presence the worst is gary cobb who seems to have been hired solely on the basis that he used to play for the eagles anyway that s my two cents on the whole fan vs wip battle alan
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in c hpcv hl andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes guess which line is which ba obp slg ab h b b hr bb x y i just love how the alomar fans left rbis off this list give me a break alomar fans left rbi fans and runs off this list because they are dependant on the team to a large extent if frank thomas hit first he d lose a lot of rbi s and anyways how many nd place hitters have you known to drive in runs doesn t happen that often very unlikely with devon white s obp in front of you gord niguma fav player john olerud
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in c hxlk fix andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes dtate pitt edu david m tate writes klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein said i just love how the alomar fans left rbis off this list of course they left rbis off we re comparing alomar the individual with baerga the individual so only individual stats count give me a break i forgot most runs are scored by players stealing home so rbi don t count for anything my mistake oh oh we all know what s going to happen now don t we gord niguma fav player john olerud
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help thanks bobby hank greenberg would have to be the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season or was it world series games because of yom kippur pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu
rec.sport.baseball	ryan rumor this just in nolan ryan hurt his right knee in the th inning of the rangers orioles game last night he ll be having arthoscopic surgery that will at best keep him on the dl for two to five weeks just when i had almost convinced myself that the rangers rotation would stay healthy this year phil allen texdude cs bradley edu
rec.sport.baseball	need software for baseball stats i m looking for software hopefully free and runs on unix box which will keep track of statistics for my company softball team batting avg etc if you know of any please post or respond to me by e mail many thanks dan bergmann dbergmann llnl gov
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in c hpg lm andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes i would tend to call the offensive contributions even but alomar wins hands down in defensive capabilities i m not just talking about the number of errors nobody including lind has the range and athleticism at second base i can t recall in the recent past anyone turning the double play better than alomar well why don t you look up those stats baerga may not be the best defensive second baseman in the league but he s damn good check the stats for dps last year and see for yourself according to the defensive average stats posted by sherri baerga had the highest percentage of dps turned in the league while alomar had the worst however alomar had a higher defensive average so who would be better using alomar s opportunities groundballs possible double plays alomar had groundouts and turned dps baerga would have had with same da dp groundouts and dps using baerga s opportunites groundballs possible double plays alomar would have had with the same da dp groundouts and dps baerga had groundouts and dps baerga looks better though it s possible his dp would be lower with a different ss will baerga consistently turn twice as many double plays however alomar has established a high level of defense baerga has not i would bet on alomar to be better next year but last year baerga was just as good overall dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu grad student at large it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re nl stats doug those stats are great they help immensely i tried to e mail you with some comments on them but my mail server does not recognize your address could you e mail me with some info on how to get e mail to you thanks jim bragg jbragg morgan ucs mun ca
rec.sport.baseball	re i hate to mention acker but in article apr jhuvms hcf jhu edu hasch jhuvms hcf jhu edu bruce m hasch writes in article apr hpcvaac cv hp com paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen writes i feel as if i might be causing some bad karma by doing this but i just have to know is the ack man still in organized baseball glad you asked the ack man and nine of his relatives are currently impersonating the baltimore orioles pitching staff personally i believe that the evil ackers kidnapped the real o s staff and are currently in the process of impersonating mussina sutcliffe mcdonald olson no no no the ack man is apparently an alien life form much like the pod people from planet mars who can take on any form the ability remains the same however the ack people have been spotted on many teams to date but it appears that the orioles staff mentioned above and the expos bullpen barnes walton fassero gardiner and rojas have been the prime target apparently john wetteland was roughed up by the ack people during spring training due to the fact that his system rejected the takeover and has been on the dl ever since contact the authorities this evil plot must be stopped the ack people can keep jack morris and juan guzman though i enjoy watching toronto fans suffer too much to want these guys returned to normal scot scot hughes department of chemical engineering expos in falcon cs mcgill ca mcgill university montreal quebec witty saying here
rec.sport.baseball	mcrae is re torre the worst manager in article bb c dak s vma smsu edu ext dak s vma smsu edu writes gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball brian a very distressed cardinal fan no hal mcrae is the worst manager in baseball i ve never seen a guy who can waste talent like he can one of the best raw talent staffs in the league and he s still finding a way to lose i ll be surprised if he makes it through the next weeks unless drastic improvement is made kc news was doing a report on that they said that mcrae is really a batting coach and not a manager but for some reason he took the job whatever the reason the royals need a new manager now while it is too late scott d davis scott mccall com the mccall pattern company uucp widener depot mccall scott mccall road in kansas manhattan ks usa
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes substituting irony for brains bruce klopfenstein said dtate pitt edu david m tate writes of course they left rbis off we re comparing alomar the individual with baerga the individual so only individual stats count i forgot most runs are scored by players stealing home so rbi don t count for anything uh right you also forgot that you can t get an rbi barring a hr with nobody on base what fraction of all runs come on solo hr most runs are scored because there happened to be players on base when the batter did something good i use the phrase happened to be advisedly lots of people have tried to figure out who the players are who have the most ability to turn it up a notch in clutch rbi whatever situations and what they ve found is that there is no evidence that anyone has such an ability to any measurable extent there are no clutch hitters people who tend to do things that would cause an rbi if there were somebody on base end up getting rbis proportional to how many of their teammates obliged by being in position my mistake i agree me too rbi are a worthless stat of course so is stolen bases because sometimes runners are in front of a player that would otherwise run and of course pitchers pitch differently with different people on different bases so batting average slugging and obp out too hmmm i guess homers would not count then either my point rbi might not be a perfect stat but nothing is and no stat or lack of can tell me there are no clutch hitters maybe no stat can tell me either but some people are i just know it ed o
rec.sport.baseball	phillies a new ballpark in future attn those who live inthe philadelphia metro area back in september i was listening to wip and i remember the morning guys were talking with mayor ed rendell the topic of conversation was a new ball park for the phillies the location for this new park was suggested to be near th st station at the time the mayor was optimisitic that in the future this could become a reality has there been any new news on this subject or is it still a pipe dream i know the city of philadelphia has other projects ahead such as the new convention center and the upcoming spectrum ii but it would be nice to see this a reality it is planned that the phillies leave the vet and leave it solely to the eagles and if that s the case the eagles should make the vet a grass stadium but that s another story i want to see that day comments
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame in article apr news yale edu steve tomassi writes hi baseball fans so what do you say don t you think he deserves it i mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don t we give dave kingman a chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon i am trying to think how to respond to this without involving personal feeling or perceptions and i can not without having stats to back up my points however i think you approached this the wrong way i believe all of the people mentioned here deserve the hall of fame more than dave kingman does i feel they were all much better players i am not saying i fell they deserve to go but that they would deserve it more imho dave kingman definately not they guy only had a couple of years were he could hit with atleast a respectable averag the rest of his career i do not think he was very feared by pitchers i also do not think he did a lot for the game i mean really i am a met fan he was a met for part of his career and i still would not back him for the hall of fame dave winfield i think so he is feared by pitchers he has had several season where he hit for a respectable average and his production numbers are in my opinion without stats better than kingman s probably by quite a bit i also perceive him to be a leader maybe not as much as some other people but none the less a leader i think he has made substantial contributions to the game of baseball and to society examples of this are some of the charitable things he has done i know some of this from when he was with the yankees i think he the type of player that kids can look up to and while this is definately not the only criteria for the hall of fame i think it deserves some consideration lee smith maybe i would have to see his stats again but he definately would deserve to go before the likes of kingman darrell evans no eddie murray maybe he has had a very good career he is a leader although a silent one he is a good role model are the stats good enough i am not sure but i would once again believe they are much better than kingman s both the average as well as the power numbers but not as good as winfield s just think eddie did not have as much publicity for most of his great years jeff reardon my guess is no but it kind of depends on his numbers off the top of my head i would take lee smith first well in any case i am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today s standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don t belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for a long time big deal well i strongly disagree here both of these guys deserve it for sure i talked about leadership above both of these guys are leaders and have been instumental in leading their teams to the post season robin does have very good offensive numbers both average and power and ozzie has okay numbers offensively the difference with ozzie is that if you gave him a home run for every run he saved by making an incredible play at shortstop he would have shattered aaron s home run mark by now how many of those great plays saved games how many of those great plays motivated his team to rally and win a game while i believe both of these guys have numbers baseball is about more than numbers or at least winning at baseball is about more than numbers both of these guys are proven stars and belong in the hall of fame as does george brett who also belongs in this class of player let s be a little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something isn t done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan steve garvey i am not sure probably not but i guess i could see someone making a case for him jack morris once again not my first choice but i can see why someone might bring up his name kirby puckett probably the only reason i do not say definately is he still has time left in his career if he continues doing what he has been then my probably will turn into a definately nolan ryan is there really any doubt i think i heard something about him having some records maybe they were not all good i don t know i did not hear any of them just the number he has the numbers he has the contributions to the game and community and he is a great role model i would not say that he is the best pitcher to ever pitch the game probably not even top but he would be the first pitcher i would put in the hall of fame because of his accomplishments no hitters strikeouts respectable numbers even with some weaker teams you can go on and on i really hope he gets all the possible votes so in summing up i have groups those that belong those that probably do but i am not sure and those that i lean towards saying don t belong at least not without my seeing stats and possibly hearing reasons why they should go yes winfield yount brett not in your mail o smith puckett and ryan maybe murray and l smith no reardon garvey morris evans and definately kingman as i said i do not have the stats around so i do not have numbers to back this up these are entirely my opinions based on my perceptions mike q steve
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes second basemen in history he probably didn t even have as good a season as alomar last year guess which line is which ba obp slg ab h b b hr bb x y the walks should give it away obp s in general somewhat more valuable than slugging and alomar s edge in obp was quite a bit larger than baerga s edge in slugging i m no sdcn but what s more valuable hits w more doubles more hrs or more triples and bbs let s not forget the extra sbs how many cs of course the hits and homers are more valuable but don t forget the outs you can t have it both ways baerga s higher raw numbers are due to him having more playing time and thus he had more hits and homers but don t forget the cost of those outs btw just to answer your question alomar had sb and cs baerga had sb and cs which gives a minute plus on alomar s side something else to consider alomar s h r splits were slg obp baerga s was and pretty clearly alomar got a huge boost from his home park i d say you could make a good for them being about equal right now t p rated baerga higher actually mike disclaimer these opiini h h damn h h q w q wq wq d x exit x q c quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x i t help helpquit d d man help c c e help exit quit q ctrlshftdel hey what does stop l a d
rec.sport.baseball	al opi through first week here is the opi offensive production index for all al players with at least at bats it is early in the season so there are some very high numbers last years leader was frank thomas at teams are denoted by an as the first character of the name and each player has his team preceeding his name the equations used are found at the end of the post comments and suggestions are welcome kevin league opi league ba league slg league oba rank player opi ba slg oba tor carter cle baerga det phillips oak mcgwire tor white bal anderson nyy owen oak rhenderson mil thon oak browne tex palmer det gibson cle howard nyy tartabull tex rodriguez tex gonzalez bos zupcic sea felder oak blankenship min puckett nyy oneill cle belle sea buhner mil hamilton det whitaker det fielder tor sprague whi cora whi raines nyy kelly bos quintana sea tmartinez cal gonzales whi burks cal snow whi karkovice cleveland cle sorrento sea amaral bos cooper min winfield cal curtis bos mvaughn oak steinbach oakland nyy maas kan joyner min knoblauch bos greenwell oak brosius tor olerud bal mercedes nyyankees bal hoiles mil kmak oak dhenderson cle lofton min larkin bos dawson cle camartinez det gladden cal polonia california detroit det tettleton cal disarcina cal easley bal baines tex franco whi ljohnson sea vizquel nyy bwilliams mil gvaughn min hrbek bal cripken seattle cal salmon kan mcreynolds toronto texas min pagliarulo whitesox kan hiatt whi guillen whi thomas kan mcrae boston cle hill nyy mattingly baltimore bal gomez minnesota whi fisk cle jefferson oak neel cal cdavis bos fletcher milwaukee det livingstone tor ralomar kansascity oak bordick tex canseco sea valle bal devereaux kan lind mil surhoff kan brett whi bell cle salomar mil jaha det fryman nyy boggs tex bripken min mack min harper cle fermin bos rivera mil spiers mil yount tor schofield tex hulse sea griffey sea obrien kan macfarlane oak sierra kan jose bos hatcher sea blowers whi ventura tex palmeiro bal reynolds kan mayne cal myers nyy nokes bos calderon bos pena tor molitor det deer det cuyler tor borders whi grebeck bal gdavis tex dascenzo min leius mil reimer tor djackson tex gill kan gagne b b b hr bb sb cs opi ab h ba h ab slg h b b hr ab oba h bb ab bb jet propulsion laboratory schmke cco caltech edu oak grove dr schmidt spc jpl nasa gov m s pasadena ca
rec.sport.baseball	nl opi through first week here is the opi offensive production index for all nl players with at least at bats it is early in the season so there are some high numbers barry bonds finished last season at i welcome comments and suggestions kevin league opi league ba league slg league oba rank player opi ba slg oba phi daulton phi kruk cub grace cub may col boston pit bell col galarraga stl pena stl zeile cin mitchell mon lansing pit slaught mon vanderwal nym tfernandez snf martinez hou bagwell col hayes col eyoung mon alou cin milligan phi dykstra snf bonds flo conine snd plantier hou gonzalez hou anthony col cole atl sanders mon berry cub sosa stl jefferies pit vanslyke montreal los butler mon grissom pit king snd gwynn pit merced nym murray stl gilkey nym bonilla snd walters cub wilson flo weiss philadelphia atl justice pittsburgh stl osmith phi incaviglia pit young stlouis colorado nym hundley nym orsulak snf benjamin atl gant nymets houston mon pitcher phi morandini hou cedeno cin sabo snf manwaring snfrancisco atl blauser snf thompson hou caminiti flo barberie mon cordero snd sheffield los karros snf williams snd mcgriff flo destrade col girardi atl bream mon wood flo santiago phi thompson snf clayton los piazza snd bell los wallach cin larkin pit garcia cincinnati nym coleman nym kent stl whiten cin roberts cubs snf lewis hou finley col clark los pitcher sndiego atl lemke losangeles snf mcgee atlanta cin sanders cin oliver snd gardner los reed phi hollins florida los davis atl pendleton snf clark los strawberry hou biggio phi bell flo magadan stl pagnozzi pit martin col bichette hou taubensee mon bolick flo pose mon cianfrocco nym johnson cin kelly atl nixon nym pitcher pit pitcher cub buechle stl lankford atl olson cub vizcaino cub sanchez phi duncan los offerman snf pitcher mon laker phi chamberlain snd pitcher atl pitcher phi pitcher cub maldonado flo felix cin espy stl jordan atl berryhill cub pitcher snd shipley stl pitcher hou pitcher col benavides cin pitcher cub wilkins flo pitcher col pitcher b b b hr bb sb cs opi ab h ba h ab slg h b b hr ab oba h bb ab bb jet propulsion laboratory schmke cco caltech edu oak grove dr schmidt spc jpl nasa gov m s pasadena ca
rec.sport.baseball	re oakland oaks memorabilia there is ebbets field flannels in seattle which makes lots of minor and negro league jackets and jerseys these things are real spendy around for a jersey but they are very authentic in look and nicely made paul long live steve bilko and the pcl la angels their phone number is the last catalog shows three oaks jerseys home home home they re each all their merchandise is handmade and is an authentic replica i own a couple and they are excellent they also have wool caps and jackets you should call to get on their mailing list even if you can t afford their prices anton
rec.sport.baseball	ryam out for weeks nolan ryan has torn cartlidge inhis right knee is having surgery and is expected to miss weeks
rec.sport.baseball	re defensive averages third base in c jjrj em cs uiuc edu steph cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes compiled from the last five defensive average reports here are the career das for the individual players in the reports stats are courtesy of sherri nichols players are listed in descending order and some comments with some players deleted third basemen name mitchell kevin yep that kevin mitchell i never would have expected him in the spot gonzales rene it s no accident that the first two names are only as with first and second base was the year of the glove average da was points higher in both leagues than any other year leius scott looks good too bad he s moving to short pendleton terry highest five year regular though he s only had one year as good as kevin mitchell ventura robin wallach tim gruber kelly the other elite fielders in the league pagliarulo mike this is an interesting line his figure was slightly below average his was pathetic and his was the next best year by anybody part of that may be his mobility was with the yankees was with the padres who appear to have a rotten infield was with the twins and judging by leius and gaetti the metrodome may be a good place to play third williams matt add another to the elite fielders list caminiti ken sabo chris too fielders whose career average may overstate their value i don t know what happened to caminiti judging by the three previous years his low may be a fluke sabo is merely average however his incredible best year ever brings his average up a lot buechele steve strange last two years schmidt mike according to reputation one of the best fielders ever at third base but at the end he was below average average in was boggs wade boggs has been pretty good i don t know what happened in but every other year he has been above average usually by quite a bit martinez egdar last year a fluke or a portent nl average seitzer kevin al average why is it that the two leagues usually have defensive averages very close to one another but very different from year to year any ideas jacoby brook brook is declining hansen dave magadan dave jefferies greg three first time regulars above average in i m not sure why jefferies gets all the grief about his fielding he s never had a good year but while at second he improved to become an average fielder and is an average fielder at third zeile todd zeile on the other hand is a below average fielder each year he s about points below average and it s probably not just the park since terry pendleton had excellent das in the three years before this baerga carlos moving back to second was a good idea hayes chris so why is hayes supposed to be good defensively he s had a grand total of one year above the league da and was pretty bad last year johnson howard lansford carney howard johnson and carney lansford separated at birth to his credit hojo did have one above average year lansford couldn t even break the mark without the help of the year of the glove hollins dave good hitter but his fielding needs work sheffield gary not a good fielder blauser jeff fryman travis both are better off at shortstop gomez lee two consecutive horrible years for leo camden yards doesn t seem to have helped his fielding any palmer dean texas slugger debuts with not only the lowest career da but the lowest da at third ever congratulations dean dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu grad student at large it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	two stooges well the red sox have apparenly resigned herm winningham to a aaa contract ted larry simmons signed him to a aaa contract then released him from buffalo allowing lou curly gorman to circumvent the rule about not resigning free agents until may clearly neither of these guys is bright enough to be moe mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com make it right before you make it faster
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee fears rawley eastwick
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in apr webo dg com lyford dagny webo dg com lyford beverage writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article rudyc fr q cl netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes in article c fmxd pm cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma writes reference to history because he certainly didn t have the best season for second basemen in history he probably didn t even have as good a season as alomar last year what do you have some measure like popularity in toronto doesn t count that you are basing this statement on uh yes baerga has a lot of flash but alomar was the better hitter last year batters ba slg obp g ab r h tb b b hr rbi bb so sb cs e baerga c alomar r this is fascinating you say that alomar was the better hitter last year and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that baerga had a better year the only category that i see which shows an advantage for alomar is obp hmmm what about walks and sb baerga got clobbered by alomar in obp and beat him in slg by a lesser margin even putting aside any other factors a player with a point edge in obp is more productive than a player with a point edge in slg the issue has been studied before and i doubt you could come up with any convincing argument the other way people see the batting average and the hr but they don t really know their value is worth unless they ve studied the issue closely the fact is that baerga ate up a lot more outs than alomar while baerga was making outs alomar was drawing walks and being on base for carter winfield et al gord niguma fav player john olerud
rec.sport.baseball	sandberg runs rbis was re notes on jays vs indians series in article c jm m jw cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma writes alomar fans left rbi fans and runs off this list because they are dependant on the team to a large extent if frank thomas hit first he d lose a lot of rbi s and anyways how many nd place hitters have you known to drive in runs doesn t happen that often very unlikely with devon white s obp in front of you i m pretty sure that sandberg has done this at least once i know someone will correct me if i m wrong rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game flame away john bratt gord niguma fav player john olerud
rec.sport.baseball	re torre the worst manager in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball for anyone who didn t see sunday s game with a right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform a left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford a hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea a hitter with no power as a pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking educate yourself before you rip on this years manager of the year lankford injured himself in a previous game and torre was resting him as far as the whitten gilkey controversy whitten adds some more needed power and if jordan continues to hit the way he has been gilkey will find himself in the starting lineup soon enough sam brian landmann georgia institute of technology internet gt a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players hank greenberg was probably the greatest ever he was also subject to a lot of heckling from bigots on the opposing teams and in the stands but it never seemed to affect his performance negatively bob davis rbd thor ece uc edu
rec.sport.baseball	re omar vizquel grand salami do you think omar s grand slam is the result of his new fan club last week a banner appeared in the kingdome older women for omar cheryl cheryl marks hp ux address cherylm lsid hp com hp desk cheryl marks hpa telenet ma bell usps cheryl marks ms soper hill road everett wa too much of a good thing is wonderful mae west
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes actually i kind of liked the abott trade we did trade the rookie of the year snow but with don mattingly at first for another years why bother i d be willing to make two wagers snow doesn t win roy mattingly is out of baseball within five years i m skeptical of the first because i don t think snow is that good a player and he is on a losing team i m skeptical of the second because of his back mattingly is this year and how many players play until they are not too many and most of them didn t have chronic back problems when they were could be wrong on either or both but i think that s the smart way to bet cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re baseballisdead scott asd com scott barman writes forget it word has it three divisions with a wild card is just about a done deal it has to be decided soon since negotiations with the networks also have to begin soon preliminary negotiations started already i believe though the word is that they are going slooooooooooooooooooooooowly greg
rec.sport.baseball	re let s talk phillies article from as follows from bml ns cc lehigh edu brian michael lucy subject re let s talk phillies date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines in article uflkll vpcekw e andrew cmu edu al x andrew cmu edu amit likhy ani writes excerpts from netnews rec sport baseball apr re let s talk phillies u msopher vaxc stevens like this oh well how do we spell cellar p i r a t e s ninja jew are there any philly fans who want to put money on that if not stop your woofing ben rivera got hammered true last week but tonight he pitched shutout innings and got runs behind him that s why we re one phrase for you fuck you thanks
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in article apr news acns nwu edu edo casbah acns nwu edu edward ouellette writes my point rbi might not be a perfect stat but nothing is and no stat or lack of can tell me there are no clutch hitters maybe no stat can tell me either but some people are i just know it i was hoping somebody would mention clutch clutch baerga the two words simply do not go together with runners in scoring position baerga batted last year this doesn t quite suck but most batters hit better in this situation alomar he hit with runners in scoring position the difference alomar had rbis in such ab baerga had rbis in such ab baerga got more chances yet succeeded only more times frankly i don t believe in clutch but if i did my vote would go to alomar for mvp let alone best b in the al valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame steve tomassi writes hi baseball fans so what do you say don t you think he deserves it i mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don t we give dave kingman a chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon unfortunately you seem to lack the ability to rate players dave winfield has had a better career than half the people in the hall of fame eddie murray and darrel evans are both one of the top players of all time lee smith has had probably the greatest long career of any relief pitcher since with the possible exception of gossage on the other hand kingman probably isn t one of the best players of all time and reardon though a good pitcher isn t in smith s class career wise well in any case i am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today s standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don t belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for a long time big deal we re talking of the top players of all time here there probably aren t shortstops in history who were better than these two let s be a little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something isn t done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent garvey sucked morris while a very good pitcher simply doesn t belong near cooperstown gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan if puckett and ryan okay no if there get into to the hall they will be marginal hall of famers unless puckett keeps hitting like he did last year for a while longer to put this in perspective here s a listing of the linear weights values of the careers of the players you mention in parenthesis is how high they are up on the greatest ever list if they make it while no one would claim these are perfect rankings they should give you a good value of these guys careers as compared to average players robin yount ozzie smith dave winfield eddie murray darrel evans kirby puckett nolan ryan jack morris dave kingman steve garvey to give you an idea of how these numbers compare to those in the hall of the eligible players whose career stats equaled are in the hall of fame the ones who aren t include th century players ron santo bobby grich and bob johnson of those eligible who score between and of are in of those eligible who score between and of are in greg
rec.sport.baseball	re phillies a new ballpark in future in a philadelphia inquirer a few days ago it was reported that there were two plans for a new phillies stadium the already mentioned th street station proposal and a location near broad street and race street i think i can t remember the exact details but the stadium would be build practically downtown there is a small lot that could be used according to the paper the th street plan has run into some trouble because amtrak does not want to reroute some of its lines in order to accomodate the stadium i don t have an opinion just yet just letting everyone know that there are really two options being discussed right now neither of these plans will be put into effect very soon however because nobody wants to pay for it keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when i want your opinion i ll give it to you
rec.sport.baseball	box score abbrev woes can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make absolutely no sense at least in the local gannett rag that finds its way to my door i must have stared at cleman in the mets box for a good seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was wouldn t it make more sense to use colemn jay
rec.sport.baseball	re infield fly rule one last infield fly question that has always puzzled me and hasn t yet been addressed i believe the rule also does not deal with this situation if infield fly is declared and the ball is caught runners can tag up and advance at their own risk as on any fly ball however if the infield fly is not caught at what point can a runner legally leave his base w o fear of being doubled off for advancing too early when the ball hits the ground when a fielder first touches the ball after it hits the ground enlightenment would be appreciated jay
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help john lowenstein is definately not jewish many in baltimore thought he was especially after he told the baltimore jewish times so but later he admitted that it was a joke
rec.sport.baseball	re wfan in article c jc z knd news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert c hite wrote wip took two of your best sports jockeys too jody macdonald and steve fredericks dude are you nuts wfan is second to none jody mac s exit was quite a loss but if you think fredericks on the fan was much of one you re pretty skewed sean
rec.sport.baseball	re the phillies deja vu in article ericsc hzr eui netcom com erics netcom com eric smith writes yeah the phillies played over their heads almost the whole year but it all caught up to them in one game streak i am as old as man and i was a big phillies fan at the time age the dodgers or somebody else finish two games back that has to be one of the closest last minute scrambles ever since i was born in the late pleistocene i too remember that year the dodgers were several games out of first and i think finished sixth in the league this was kind of odd because they won the world series both the previous year and the following year warren usui i m one with the universe on a scale from to
rec.sport.baseball	re the phillies deja vu previously i wrote yeah the phillies played over their heads almost the whole year but it all caught up to them in one game streak i am as old as man and i was a big phillies fan at the time age september is still a painful thing to remember but i can tell you that the phillies never led the league by that year going by memory alone i believe their biggest lead was games and they were ahead when the famous game losing streak began a streak during which it seemed that they found just about every way to lose known to man anyway i think they rebounded just before the end and won their last couple games and were still in the thing until the final day but finished tied with the giants one game out and didn t the dodgers or somebody else finish two games back that has to be one of the closest last minute scrambles ever ok you guys stirred up my childhood memories so i went and did some research on the final month or so of the season it turns out that my recollections were pretty darn accurate at least as far as the phillies record goes on september this was the top of the n l standings w l gb philadelphia cincinnati st louis san francisco this is a game by game description of the remainder of the phillies season date score opponent lead pitcher starting and winner loser houston bunning houston short houston bennett san francisco mahaffey baldschun win san francisco bunning san francisco short baldschun los angeles bennett los angeles wise los angeles mahaffey st louis bunning baldschun cardinals take over nd place from cincinnati st louis short san francisco bennett san francisco mahaffey giants move into a tie for nd with st louis san francisco bunning cardinals back in sole possesion of nd place houston short houston bennett houston bunning los angeles wise schantz los angeles short baldschun los angeles bennett baldschun los angeles bunning reds move back into tie for nd with cardinals well so far so good for the phillies but now it all falls apart cincinnati mahaffey reds take sole possesion of nd place cincinnati short cincinnati bennett milwaukee bunning milwaukee short boozer cards now back in rd giants in th milwaukee mahaffey schantz milwaukee bunning phils lose games in days reds take over st cardinals back in rd st louis short cardinals take over nd place phils drop to rd st louis bennett reds and cardinals now tied for st st louis bunning cardinals take game lead over reds cincinnati short roebuck phillies halt game losing streak cards lead reds by game did not play cards lose to mets reds tied for st phils game back cincinnati bunning cards beat mets take first by from reds and phillies whew what a finish and the final standings were w l gb st louis philadelphia cincinnati san francisco now it doesn t appear to me that phillies pitchers bunning and short were really overused at least by the four man rotation standard of the day until well along into the game losing streak at which time mauch was probably desperate for a win at any cost because the phillies substantial lead had evaporated the way they were used at that time may have made the problem worse although bunning had one of his sharpest games of the year in the final day shutout of the reds that cost the reds a share of the pennant bunning pitched a complete game six hitter striking out five and walking one it would be inetersting to see though how the total innings for the year for bunning and short stacks up against the rest of the league also notice that the phillies played every day from at least september through october while they didn t play substantially more games than the other teams the other teams each had a couple days off during that stretch eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci
rec.sport.baseball	the bob dylan baseball abstract just a little something i found while reading the village voice which is not noted for its sports coverage but occasionally the print some interesting features this year the predictions team analyses for the season were presented in the form of bob dylan lyrics i don t have the article in front of me so i ll only give the memorable ones here that i remember and know the melody to i could dig up more if there is interest yankess to the tune of subterranean homesick blues howe is in the basement mixing up the medicine george is on the pavement thinking bout the government wade boggs in a trench coat bat out paid off says he s got a bad back wants to get it laid off look out kids it s somethin you did don t know when but it s columbus again mets to the tune of like a rolling stone once upon a time you played so fine you threw away dykstra before his prime didn t you people said beware cone he s bound to roam but you thought they were just kidding you you used to laugh about the strawberry that was headin out but now you don t talk so loud now you don t seem so proud about having to shop vince coleman for your next deal phillies to the tune of highway well daulton and dykstra should have some fun just keep them off of highway giants to the tune of the ballad of rubin hurricane carter this is the story of the magowan the man st petersburg came to pan for something that he never done he sits in the owner s box but one day he could have been the tampian of the world bill moakler lpo rutgers anime moakler remus rutgers edu po box atlantic anime alliance new brunswick nj chibi con i am not an otaku i am a free man
rec.sport.baseball	going to a cubbies game well after suffering from an intense fit of minnesota induced cabin fever i ve decided to road trip to milwaukee and take in a couple of games this weekend a couple games at county stadium will be great to relieve tension but i thought why not go to wrigley for a game too i see the cubs are playing the phillies on sat start i believe that s eastern time listed i figured it would be fun to bounce down to wrigley for the day game and live it up a little i m wondering if anyone esp cubbie fans have some advice on if i m taking skokie hwy south until it runs into what s the best way to get to wrigley i m planning on getting there an hour or two early and paying through the nose for parking to keep things easy is it probable that i ll be able to walk up and get bleacher seats or on game day i figure since it s early in the year ryno s out and the weather isn t great i should be able to get tickets if not what s the best way to get advance tickets can i call the cubs ticket office directly and pick up tickets at the will call window any advice on where to eat before or after the game do they allow inflatable i luv ewe dolls present from lundy into the bleachers dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat a dead horse but it s been a couple o weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee fears i would e mail this to you but my mailserver doesn t recognize you or something anyway the worst pitcher on the yanks if you mean currently on the team then i have to go with scott i m a schizophrenic no i m not kamienicki sure occasionally the guy can pitch well for or innings but then he starts to go insane a sure sign that he s losing his stuff and his mind is when he starts to stalk around the mound between batters and yell at himself the worst all time yanks pitcher gotta go with ed new york i have to pitch in gulp new york whitson nuff said i m outta here like vladimir alan sepinwall xviii what s this this is ice this is what happens to water when it gets too cold this this is kent this is what happens to people when they get too sexually frustrated val kilmer real genius
rec.sport.baseball	re sandberg runs rbis was re notes on jays vs indians series in article c jqby m a news rich bnr ca bratt crchh a nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game flame away so what does that have to do with rbi s the team with the most rbi s doesn t necessarily win the game yes runs are the most important statistice for a team so why does every newspaper rank team offense by batting average but for an individual player runs and rbis are context dependent and tell us very little about the player himself and more about his teammates and position in the batting order ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
rec.sport.baseball	re old predictions to laugh at tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes from jpalmer uwovax uwo ca thu sep ron hassey will be a minor league manager with the yankees dunno what happened to him maybe i can help you he s a major league coach with the rockies so above prediction is doubly wrong my prediction the red sox cubs series and vikings broncos superbore will occur at the end of the world and one rockie will finish in the top of an offensive catagory this year and no rockie starter will have an era below and the rangers fade will not begin until august they ll give way to the angels but still challenge to the end really not making any of this up if i am may god strike me down zzzzzzt thanks for listening valentine dylan wilbanks environ con the official usenet rabid fan of the major u of colorado boulder colorado rockies clip this sig for po box boulder co off on your next rockies woof life is bigger this space intenionally blank
rec.sport.baseball	phils nl east not so weak i love it how all of these people are blaming the phillies success on a weak division why don t we look at the record of the teams in each division read inter divisional play we ll see that the east is really kicking the shit out of the west i know it is early but that is all we have to go on atlanta is just so strong with their ba cincinnati is coming off a sweep at veteran s stadium in philadelphia and houston was swept in it s first three games by the phillies in the astrodome that my western division friends shows that the three best teams in your division may not be as strong as you think phils all the way in braves hit like a aaa club reds need marge bob
rec.sport.baseball	lots of runs i have noticed that this year has had a lot of high scoring games at least the nl has i believe one reason are the expansion teams any thoughts charles
rec.sport.baseball	re torre the worst manager in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball for anyone who didn t see sunday s game with a right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform a left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford a hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea a hitter with no power as a pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking for your information lankford is injured i think it is his shoulder or rib cage so he could not use him as a pinch hitter earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring mark whiten he commented how fortunate the cardinals were to get whiten and that whiten would be a regular even though this meant that gilkey would be hurt but torre said he liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does he have to do to start the guy would be starting on most every team in the league i do believe that whiten was a very good aquisition for the cards he does not have too much offensive capabilities but he is an awesome defensively since when have the cardnials actually thought of offense instead of defense i forgot who st louis gave up for him but it was not too much as far as gilkey is concerned he is a leftfielder and so is brian jordan who beat him out i expect to see a gilkey jordan platoon in lf furthermore in sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate the replay showed bucky dent the third base coach looking down the line and waving lankford home i agree with you on this one as soon as larkin threw that ball i knew that lankford was a dead bird but how could dent have known that larkin would make a perfect throw i strongly believe that torre is one of the best managers in baseball don t forget the overachieving cards of that won all those close games and went from last place to second place although they were oveshadowed by the braves twins last to first climb he won a division title and barely lost a pennant race when he was with the braves why atlanta ever even considered firing him i will never understand with torre at the controls the cardinals are heading in the right direction one more thing one game does not make a season yes they lost to the reds but with the second best pitching staff in the national league first in the east and a pretty good offense the redbirds will win a lot more than they lose maybe this is the year that they will go all the way charles a very enthusiastic cardnials fan charles rosen thirty four to thirteen university of alabama national champs roll tide tuscaloosa al need i say more
rec.sport.baseball	the bob dylan baseball abstract reposted without permission from rec music dylan in article apr uvaarpa virginia edu buck vax museum upenn edu wrote for those of you who like both bob and baseball check out the current village voice april p john lammers and hart seely have written the bob dylan baseball abstract and they have covered every team in both leagues example colorado an the silent bats will shatter from the scores between the lines for they re one too many castoffs and a thousand runs behind rebecca buck vax museum upenn edu gerry myerson
rec.sport.baseball	re why spanky on mon apr gmt in apr mnemosyne cs du edu greg spira gspira nyx cs du edu wrote does anybody in the pittsburgh area know why mike lavalliere was released last year i kept saying that slaught should get the bulk of the playing time that he was clearly the better player at this point but leyland insisted on keeping a pretty strict platoon and now he is released that doesn t make any sense to me greg the story goes like this spanky is too slow if he were quicker he would still be here but with slaught and tom prince they didn t want to lose prince in order to bring up that th pitcher slaught is about as good as spanky and prince is coming along nicely don t feel too bad for him he s still gonna get theat over the next two years he ll be able to do most of what he wants to do jon iain boone network systems administrator boone psc edu iain cmu edu pittsburgh supercomputing center i don t speak for anyone other than myself unless otherwise stated
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir not clear to me at all i d certainly rather have a team who was winning games than games in the game luck is going to play a much bigger role than in the game but you still need the pitching staff to hold the opposing team to one run sam sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article qkkodinn f jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo a iglesias writes in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help thanks bobby hank greenberg would have to be the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season or was it world series games because of yom kippur i thought that was sandy koufax sam pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jose canseco s swing vs in article c jkik zf ucdavis edu ez dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes was going over some videos last night and you wrote an excellent report about it he s bulked up too much period he needs to lose about pounds not gain more bulk his bat speed has absolutely vanished conservatively i d say he s lost of his bat speed and that s a huge amount of speed that open stance is killing him note that he acts sort of like brian downing way open to start then closes up as ball is released downing could do this without significant head movement canseco can t also note that canseco doesn t always close his stance the same way sometimes his hips are open sometimes they re fully closed without a good starting point it s hard to make adjustments in your swing i understand from an unreliable source that canseco was considered expendable by the a s when he refused to accept any coaching about his batting stance the a s brain trust came to believe that his back problems were exacerbated if not caused by having a wide open stance closing it quickly and then swinging with a lot of torque that s a paraphrase of what i remember in any event canseco took the road that he and he alone would decide his stance and the a s began to believe that he would either reinjure himself or begin to lose his ability to hit for both average and power aside from salting away a large sum of a cash that i could never touch so that i d never have to work again i d restructure my entire swing apparently you sound like larussa second drop pounds cut out the weight work the a s also objected about this if canseco s open stance and resulting bad habits are a result of his back problems he ll be out of baseball in three years if not he could still hit hr again i m just repeating something i heard but possibly the cause and effect is the reverse of that the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players you can add steve rosenberg one time white sox reliever now in the mets system to the list greg
rec.sport.baseball	the bob dylan baseball abstract just a little something i found while reading the village voice which is not noted for its sports coverage but occasionally the print some interesting features this year the predictions team analyses for the season were presented in the form of bob dylan lyrics i don t have the article in front of me so i ll only give the memorable ones here that i remember and know the melody to i could dig up more if there is interest yankess to the tune of subterranean homesick blues howe is in the basement mixing